Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - How the FBI Took Down the So-Called “King of Synthetics”

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Starting point is 00:00:50 so we put our heart into making sure it's protected. Get insurance that's really big on care. Find an agent today at Dejardin.com slash business coverage. Have you ever wondered why songs on the radio are popular? Why does certain movies get made, even though the premise seems completely random? Why are concert tickets costing you $3,000, but nobody makes any money touring? Well, on my podcast, breaking down the biz, we answer all those questions and more. I'm Seth Schackner.

Starting point is 00:01:22 I have over two decades of experience in the entertainment and the music industry, and every week I talk to insiders that lend insight and expertise on the media you know and love, past, present, and future. Subscribe now on your favorite podcasting platform or watch us on YouTube so you never miss a beat. Let's make sense of this industry together. They called me the Donald Trump of Synthetic. They seize eight vehicles. They take a million dollars clean in the bottom of a safe.

Starting point is 00:01:48 I'm running a legal business that happened to start selling these products that were just banned. I'm in my 20s, going to bars, not really doing much. and I found that I had an affinity for the side hustle of selling grass. I went from selling a little bit here and there to friends and, you know, just getting enough to have some for yourself to all of a sudden making trips where you're in it with one bad move. So I had put together a little nest egg through doing that of maybe $20,000, let's say, right? Something like that.

Starting point is 00:02:28 And, you know, in this small town that I'm from, the, the only smoke shop in the town is called OCJ's, Odd Creations Junket. You go in there. This guy literally started the business in 1979, the year I was born, and it looks like he hasn't changed much since 1979. So you go in there, he keeps the lights out until someone comes in, oh, all right, I'll turn them on now, like cheap, crazy dust on everything. this is a this is a terrible terrible smoke shop this is the only one in town so uh so it doesn't have to be super good it's the only option you don't have any other options yeah and this guy's like an old stoner everybody loved him you know he's uh you know everybody's cool with him it's a cool thing yeah we go see danny it's a you know it's a thing so but he's he's having pretty good

Starting point is 00:03:18 success there but here's me i've i've been doing this little hustling on the side uh and i I want to do something with this money. I've always wanted to get into business. So then I decide I'm going to do a smoke shop. I'm going. I'm looking to stuff online. I'm looking from everything from Chinese glassware, from Alibaba and these other online sites to, you know, real wholesale website.

Starting point is 00:03:41 So I start looking them up. I'm putting stuff in cards. I'm doing all this stuff. And I said, yeah, this is it. This is the thing I'm going to do. So I put together a smoke shop, probably spent half of this nest egg that I had. You know, and I'm running the smoke shop. That's all going good and fine.

Starting point is 00:03:58 But I'm making maybe $100 a day profit. Not a world killer. People start coming by and they're telling me, hey, there's the town Utica. It's 20 minutes away. Is this after you're paying your lease and everything? Or you're making $3,000 a month and you still have to pay for your lease? No, no, no. That's profit.

Starting point is 00:04:14 I'm making about $100 a day profit. I'm probably doing $300 or $400 a day in business. Okay. So it's a business. It's working. You can live on three. I certainly could have. I wouldn't want to.

Starting point is 00:04:26 Believe me, it's getting, it's getting better. So people start coming by. They're telling me this next city over. Same thing. One store in town. And they kind of treat people like shit. They're just like, hey, take it or leave it. Kind of, they've got attitudes.

Starting point is 00:04:41 That's crazy. No one likes going there, but they're the only show in town too. And people are telling me, hey, if you come over here and build one here, people will go there. They don't like these guys, you know? So I do it. I go, I start a second one. I have a friend working the first one, and I'm starting the second one. Now, keeping in mind this whole time, I'm doing a little bit of side hustling, right?

Starting point is 00:04:59 Not a lot, but I'm doing a little bit of side hustling. But I've got a good friend that just has always been a grower. That's all. He's done it his whole life. He loves it. So I start the second one, and I'm actually going so crazy at that time that we actually build a grow room upstairs in a smoke shop, which is absolutely terrible idea. You already have scrutiny because you're running a smoke shop selling paraphernalia. Why don't we throw a grow room upstairs?

Starting point is 00:05:27 Why don't we go ahead and make it official? Yeah, it's a great idea. Brilliant, right? So, and believe me, there's going to be a lot of brilliant ideas here, right? This is one of them. So I'm doing the grow room. You know, I've got the two stores. It's going pretty good between side hustle money.

Starting point is 00:05:40 Both stores are profitable. It's going good. And so a crazy moment, MWX, a guy that I still noticed, they Tommy. So Tommy walks in. Tommy's from Colorado, but he's always traveling around. He's around all these places in West Coast. And he's coming here. He's like, hey, you got any of this spice? I'm like, no, what spice? And he's like, yeah, they're selling in all these shops, West Coast. It's this, it's a dried leaf material. And they're spraying this chemical that's sort of a synthetic grass deal. They're spraying it on there. And it's, it works. It's good. So he's telling me about it. So I'm going, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, researching it, you know. What year is this? This is 2006, 2007.

Starting point is 00:06:26 This is just becoming prominent nationwide. Now, keep in mind, this is the original version of what I call K2 spice. It's a synthetic product. The original version was actually really good. Okay. So what I tell people for an analogy is water is H2O, two atoms of hydrogen, one atom of oxygen. So imagine if instead of H2O, you create H3O. It's very similar in chemical structure and still causes the same effect to the human body, but yet it's not going to set off a field test and

Starting point is 00:07:01 urinalysis and all the stuff that people worry about because keep mind, it's not like today where there's almost every state has legalized grass. This is, you know, it's banned in every state. This is not legal anywhere. So this product is becoming prominent nationwide and I am the first person in my area and to have a leg up, I'm in these two towns that I'm the only show in town. You know, there's one other store, but I'm the only one doing this. So Tommy comes in, he tells me about all this, and I'm going, you know what, let's try some, bring something, you know? And Tommy was really funny.

Starting point is 00:07:34 He was really good. He would, every single thing he ever brought me said, not for human consumption on it. And it was, you know, this obscure federal law that the synthetic drug act of like 1987 was If it's anything that's meant for human consumption is, you know, if it has this, this and this, it's illegal. So he would have not for human consumption on everything. So he brings it in. And I mean, this thing blows up. When I tell you it blows up, it's going crazy.

Starting point is 00:08:02 So and then I start making it go crazy. So I am running on a local radio station. I'm blasting this on the radio. Come get this magic something. Oh, magic smoker. We called it something. the original one, it was Tommy's name, right? So come get this. I'm running on the radio

Starting point is 00:08:22 saying this, okay? I did a, sort of like a podcast as Bill Keeler was a local radio talent. I'm going on his show. I'm doing the show, and the guy that's working the show also, he pulls it out of his pocket. Hey, look, I went and got something this morning. It's fantastic. It works.

Starting point is 00:08:38 It's just like the real thing. Right. So it's nuts because I'm bringing it to an area. Nobody had ever heard of it in, you know? So when I tell you this takes off, I mean, this takes off. This is now you're going from doing three, four hundred dollars a day to every store's doing at least $1,000 a day on slow days. It's taken off.

Starting point is 00:08:58 So me, my first thing is, how do we scale this? How do we get this? You know, money's pouring in. It's go time, right? How do we do this? So I get immediately to work on creating new stores. So I start going around to any little town that was near far enough to have a new location, but close enough that it's got its own people, it's really close.

Starting point is 00:09:21 So I go to a third small town near me, town of 20,000 people. I'm going around and ask people, hey, what radio station you list? I'm interviewing people as you're going out front. Typical things that you would do when you're starting a business, but I'm keeping in mind that this is the number one seller. So this isn't just a regular smoke shop anymore. This is building a smoke shop with the intent that we are going to sell mucho spice there. right like this is uh that's gonna go crazy so are you concerned at all that like it could be it could be

Starting point is 00:09:52 illegal or could be made illegal oh at this point no it was this was a tiger by the tail this was you know this was i've got this thing that nobody else has everybody's trying to get into this at this point people are looking to open stores and i'm demolishing them all because i am pumping radio ads i'm building new places. I've got the word of mouth already. Everybody in the whole area was knowing that you could go buy this. So keep in mind, the area that I'm from has like a Walmart distribution center right near there. Over 3,000 people work there regularly piss tested. They love it. So it's a lot of the works. There are many prisons in upstate New York right near me. Everybody who worked at those prisons, I can now go and smoke and not fail your analysis. It's huge, right? This thing is really taken off. So,

Starting point is 00:10:42 It's everybody and it's people that just don't want to deal with the regular, call my guy, go meet them in a gas station parking lot, bullshit. You know, I can go right in, pay this. I'm a paying sales tax on it. If I get pulled over, I'm telling him, hey, look, I just got this right here at Tebbs. I just want this right now. Look at it. So it's taken off.

Starting point is 00:11:00 I mean, this is going nuts. So I build the third one, the fourth one. Now I go to Syracuse. So this is, you know, I'm from a small town, it's 30,000 people. Syracuse got, you know, almost 200,000 people. So I go right to a. a very popular bar area, Armory Square. I mean, I must have spent 20 grand on this building.

Starting point is 00:11:18 I don't even own the building. Spent 20 grand on just remodeling it, 14 foot high ceilings with big glass water pipes up and down. Built a huge smoke shop right downtown. I start running on, you know, so you've got the station was called K-Rock, so I'm running on the radio stations in my area, and now I start running on Syracuse radio stations.

Starting point is 00:11:37 It is, it takes off. It's going nuts, you know, so I'm building stores. We are going crazy. I'm actually having to build out a real team now, you know, because I've got to build out people just like a regular business. I've got to have sort of district managers. All right, you take care of this and this story. You do this. It becomes, you know, quite a lot to deal with at that point.

Starting point is 00:12:00 But when I tell you, money's rolling in, it's huge. So I start taking off. I start doing all these other ones. I do four of them total in Syracuse. I had 12 stores all said and done at the end, but I had done four in the Utica, Rome area where I'm from, four of them in Syracuse. I go up, I do one in Watertown.

Starting point is 00:12:22 Watertown is a next to a place called Fort Drum, Military Base. It's literally half the people in this town. It becomes my best store instantly. It's all these army guys, they all have piss tests. They can all come get this. What's happening with the other stores? They're not catching on that, hey, I should sell this? or oh everybody's catching on yeah everybody's selling it so in the end but but they're just behind

Starting point is 00:12:48 everybody yeah so then not only are they behind the ball on it but i am getting to the point where i'm running radio stations we are the the name recognition that everybody knows right so i'm running on the radio station i'm pushing marketing as hard as possible i'm building big huge signs normal smoke shops just have like this little you know they don't do big crazy signage now you see them all with it. They want, you know, they want everybody know they're there. But at this time, it kind of wasn't like that. I was going to say it's funny because like if you go to, if you go to get cigarettes someplace, right, like you go to 7-Eleven to get cigarettes and they don't have them. And then you go to Circle K to see if they have them and they do have them. Almost nobody ever goes back

Starting point is 00:13:29 to 7-Eleven again. Like they'll always keep going to Circle K. Why? Because they always have the cigarettes I want. They would have to run out for you to even consider going back to the 7-Eleven that ran out. You see what I'm saying? So, and not just that. Now that they're going there, now every time they need some, you know, some, they need to buy a soda. They don't go. Why would I go to the old 7-Eleven?

Starting point is 00:13:49 They don't even have my cigarettes. They go to the new place. They keep going, you know what I'm saying? Now they're buying all their, now that becomes kind of their go-to move. So basically you're saying that you're pulling from these other places. They're buying their stuff at your place. And they're just kind of staying there at this point, right? Because nobody else.

Starting point is 00:14:06 Even if these guys come out, obviously they get. cigarettes again, doesn't matter. This is a place that always has it. And this is a place I'm now, you'd have to fuck up for them to go back to 7-Eleven. Oh yeah. And I'm leaving out a very important part of this too. So early on, when I'm, I'm at three or four stores and I'm realizing there's all these people that are out there trying to push their brand of this spice. So you're getting phone calls. My stores are getting calls every day from the whole country is onto this. And these people are calling, I'm trying to sell some version of this to me. Well, as luck would have it, the guy that I started with Tommy, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a,

Starting point is 00:14:38 He's a scientist, this guy, right? Like, he's into it. He's trying. He's ordering all kinds of different synthetic drugs and trying them. He's nuts. He's into it. So he's making me stuff that's much better than other people. And very early on, I realized I've got to make my own brand.

Starting point is 00:14:53 I want to control this brand. I actually was getting copied by other stores that were taking our brand, photocopying it, making stickers that said legal funk, which was our brand, and selling it in their stores with a black and white face to it. You know, other stores are. starting to copy because people are coming in saying, have any illegal funk? Now, that's the one I want. So we're actually making a better version, too. So this isn't a circle K-7-11 deal. This is a, we're making a really good version of this, right? So I'm leaving that part out. And I mean, when I tell you, Tommy's a scientist, he's going hard on this. It's a matter of not only what you're doing,

Starting point is 00:15:28 but he would put a couple of different ones in one. So the original formula was called JWH-0-8. That was the more closely. So that was like the H-3-0. But you'd have H-4-0, H-5-0. They kept making different ones of these, you know? So, so, so, so he's making the best ones possible at this time, right? So I go up, I do Watertown. So about right after I do the Watertown one, it's, it's going hard. I mean, Watertown's doing eight, $10,000 a day every day is, it's going hard. All of a sudden, you start having little news outlets and people start doing these stories of, hey, there's this new phenomenon and people are catching on. You're getting articles, news, different things, you know. And so.

Starting point is 00:16:08 So the writing is starting to be on the wall a little bit. Like, hey, this is becoming very prominent. They're going to have to do something about it. So I'm watching all of that kind of stuff, right? And my guy, Tommy, is seriously watching all that kind of stuff. If they ban something, it's sort of a cat and mouse game when it comes to this, right? They ban H3O, you make H4O. They ban H4O.

Starting point is 00:16:29 They ban H5O. Right. So right after I had done Watertown, they had started to do some bans. And they would take like five chemicals at once and say, okay, these are now on the controlled list. This is now considered a controlled substance. So they did, I think the original ban was like five different chemicals. Tommy was ready.

Starting point is 00:16:47 Boom. We're on to something else. So, you know, am I worried that this is illegal? I'm not even thinking of that. I'm thinking, again, Tiger by the tail mentality. Yeah, they change it. We're going to change it. It doesn't matter.

Starting point is 00:16:59 They want to, you want to ban this by the time you get this done. We're going to be on to the next thing. That's not even a problem, you know? So, I mean, that's at least my thinking at the time. And it's obviously, I see where that led. But that's my thinking at the time. So, you know, like I say, right after we do Watertown, not only does this start becoming like a deal.

Starting point is 00:17:17 You're seeing it in news stories. I had had a few reporters calling me. I'm not talking to any of them. I'm just going hard. And people always ask you this at the end. And after you don't tell, you know, why didn't you stop? Right. Why didn't you stop?

Starting point is 00:17:29 Well, you're not making the kind of money that I was making. And on top of that, for me, I'd never made that kind of money in my life. I was, you know, just run around job to job bullshit. I'm not making this kind of money. So it starts hitting the fan a little bit, right? They're onto it. You're getting the five chemical ban. All of a sudden, I get blacklisted by the Army.

Starting point is 00:17:53 So I get served in every single location. Every store, my house, I had already built a warehouse that I'm distributing, you know, product and everything from my warehouse. I get served everywhere that, hey, just to let you know, U.S. Army personnel are no longer allowed to step foot in any of your premises, list them all out. So I'm blacklisted. Army personnel, you know, so they're pissed up there, right? They're not happy about this.

Starting point is 00:18:21 So we're blacklisted. And what's funny is I used to just kind of go around to all these stores. I'm checking in, seeing how everything's going, see what people are doing. And I was going up to Watertown. I'd hang out for an hour or two just kind of see how things are going. I'm noticing all kinds of weird stuff is selling in the Watertown store. Pink stuff, different shirts. I hang out for an hour.

Starting point is 00:18:40 I realize everybody's sending their wives in. Everybody's sending all the women in every pink pipe's selling out of the place. Different things are selling in this store now. And that's all they're doing. They're just sending somebody else in. This store's numbers are still never stopping, you know? So I ended up opening three more stores after that, right? So I do a total of 12 stores.

Starting point is 00:19:03 I mean, getting towards the end of this, we are pulling in money. We are, you know, this thing is I have two different district. I have somebody running the three main stores. I have somebody else running, you know, four stores from Syracuse, a different person running all the Utica Rome stores. And you kind of convince yourself, like, we're skirting a gray area. This isn't illegal. We're just skirting a gray area, you know?

Starting point is 00:19:30 I've got bank accounts with a bunch of money in it. going and counting money, you're doing, you know, we'd go count, get money from every store. You're doing $120, $150,000 a week in cash sales. Plus, you know, a bunch of credit cards, other stuff. It's, it's pretty crazy, you know. It's going full-fledged. It's going hard. And, you know, the reminiscing. Yeah. I can see it in your face. The good times. Yeah, these are really the good times because a lot of other people, they're committing crimes and they know it's coming to an end. Eventually, right? Like, you had to know, this is coming. They are going to catch up to me. Well, I thought I was pretty cocky. I thought I'm just that good. You're never going to get me.

Starting point is 00:20:17 Yeah. I'm that good. You get become emboldened. And people think that it's people think, that's, that's easier than people think. Right. But I know what I'm doing is illegal. Like, it's not, like, you're, you're thinking, okay, they just ban this. Okay, we're going to switch this. We're going to do this and this. We're good. Okay, cool. Let's keep going. Like, you're thinking I'm ahead of them.

Starting point is 00:20:36 Right. And so I'm thinking I'm ahead of them, but I'm also thinking we can stay ahead of them. They're publicizing these upcoming bans. We know when this is going to happen. They're saying, hey, this is going to be reviewed in Congress in two weeks. And we're getting solicited by people because everybody's watching it. So we're getting solicited by people that are trying to sell this stuff. And they're saying, hey, buy our stuff.

Starting point is 00:20:56 We're up on the laws. We're not going to let you have anything older that's outdated. are no good anymore, you know? And keep in mind, there's also some other bad stuff that's happening at this time. At this time, okay, so my analogy, the H2O, H3O, H40. Now, by the time you make H-470, you're pretty far away from the original formula, right? We're not talking, you know, just a regular synthetic product anymore. You're talking about something crazy. And you're getting stories like, you know, in Florida, people are eating people's faces. You're, you're You're getting crazy stories.

Starting point is 00:21:34 Do you remember that? Like, I think I remember, like, when I was in high school or middle school, people saying, I don't know if it was the same thing called, like, bath salts or something, but I remember people being saying, like, in Miami is like a literal zombie, like, trying to eat somebody. Yeah, you know, there was a kid that, like, ate his neighbor's face or something. Wasn't a kid or was it? Yeah. And the story ends up being overblown for what it is.

Starting point is 00:21:56 But it's a, you know, it's true. And people are, like I say, you get. so far away from the original formula, and it's crazy because here it is the federal government thinks they're helping. You're coming in. You're hurting this. You're banning all the very close formulas, the ones that are more natural and more likely to be natural and like the real thing. And you're making these, you're not making these people, but you're having people go and create formulas that are far off. This is made in some lab somewhere, and it comes in as kilos of powder, and you're taking it and you're, you're putting it, dissolving it in alcohol

Starting point is 00:22:28 and spraying it on a dried plant material, you know. You don't really know what the effects are at this point. Yeah, you don't know, and you don't know who's done that. Now, me, I know, I know who's doing mine and I trust him, so I know that what we're doing is good, and the proof is in the pudding because everybody loves what we're doing. We're outselling everybody, right? And I know what's going on the street.

Starting point is 00:22:48 Keep in mind, I would be going to, I'd go to Vegas to all these trade shows, these smoke shop trade shows, right? And I remember going to Champs trade shows. where literally a whole section of the trade show is nothing but like K2 and spice area. There's people selling truckloads of Damania leaf and marshmallow leaf and the actual materials used to make it. Those guys are making killings. You'd have people that buy up the whole supply by truckloads of it for a couple hundred dollars a pound and then selling it. They found an arbitrage opportunity.

Starting point is 00:23:21 Right. Nuts. So, I mean, I would be going to these places and I would be seeing everybody do it. it. So there's a lot of people, and there's a lot of people doing it way bigger than we're doing it. I just happen to be killing it in the area that I'm in. So, but everybody's doing this. And at this point, every other store is doing it too. I'm getting blacklisted because I happen to have one that's very popular with the Army, but, you know, you go to convenience stores, Circle K's and 7-Elevens, and people have a similar product there. Everybody wanted in on this. And that will sort of

Starting point is 00:23:56 You'll talk you to sleep too. That'll let you think, well, everybody's doing this. Yeah, yeah, go on. It's Bob Dave, Joe. Everybody's doing it. So what's, what am I doing that's any different? If they're going to get anybody, they're going to get Paul. Yeah. He's got a huge operation. He's all over the country, right? Like you're thinking, you're not, you're certainly not on their list. No. And then, you know, a little secret for everybody out there is nobody knows what the federal government can do when they come in, you know? I had only known of state things, you know. When things happen on a state level, you know, if you've got enough money to post some bail, you're fine. So I know at any point in time, you know, I mean, I've got a safe. I'm trying to stack a million dollars of brand new $100 bills in this thing, right? Like I've got, I'm like going to the bank and exchanging some like old shitty ones and getting

Starting point is 00:24:40 brand new crispy ones. How many you got? Oh, you got $30? I'll take those. And I'm trying to stack this to make a million dollars clean in the bottom of a safe. I'm fucking around with money at this point, right? Like it's, it's pretty crazy. And everybody's doing it.

Starting point is 00:24:54 So I just think I happen to, in my mind at the, time, I'm the person that happens to be really good at this in Rome, New York. You know, there's another guy who happens to be really good at this in Tampa and in Los Angeles and wherever else. I just happen to be the guy in Rome that's really good at this. So I'm, you know. I have a question. Are you married at this point? Are you living in a nicer house?

Starting point is 00:25:14 Are you still living in your one bedroom? Yeah. So I went from smaller apartments to, you know, as the money is coming in more and more, I, you know, I had, you know, a nice five-bedroom house. in the city, but then as, as I start to be this person that everybody knows. And when I tell you, I'm this person everybody knows is, you know, I've got these, I'm on, I've got these stores that are in every town nearby. I've got, I'm on the radio all the time. People are reciting my commercials to me. Like the commercials go, Tebbs, Tebbs, Tebbs, Teps, Teps. People would drive mine cars yelling

Starting point is 00:25:47 it out at me. I just, everywhere I go, it's sort of like that. So I'm in the middle of town, and that gets a little sickening when you're making a lot more money than everybody else is, right? It's a you're the first person people when they need money. You're the first person they call for a loan. First person when they need anything in the world, you know, somebody, as soon as they get arrested, like I had Rome police booking in my phone. So I know, all right, who is it this time? I need bail money, you know?

Starting point is 00:26:12 So I'm living in a five-bedroom house in the city. I go to a really nice house that's sort of two miles out of town. And that was the last house that I had. But yeah, I'm living in a... Married? A nice house. I've got, you know, at the time, three kids married, all extravagant with that shit, too. Like I went to Atlantic City and got married.

Starting point is 00:26:35 I was the first one to get married out on the pier in Atlantic City. They got a little mini water show, sort of like the Bellagio. So I'm, yeah, I'm doing that. I'm married. I went and bought an RV. And this ends up being a money laundering charge. But I bought an RV for $205,000. And because I flew to Texas to go get it, it's.

Starting point is 00:26:56 it's nuts. So I buy a brand new 40-foot diesel pusher RV. And I've got people managing this for me. I'm leaving sometimes two, three weeks at a time. I'm driving all around the country in this RV. I mean, I did a trip that was nuts. I went to the arch in St. Louis, down to see my sister in Louisiana over to the Grand Canyon, Vegas, L.A., Mall of America, and back.

Starting point is 00:27:20 That's the kind of stuff that I'm doing at the time. And again, this is all legit. And what's crazy is, on the last ones of these RV trips, that's when I'm starting to get some of these crazy calls in, right? Like people are, uh, hey,

Starting point is 00:27:34 uh, the health department stopped by here because there's, it's starting to get where they're trying to come at you from any angle that they can. They tried a few health department passing things. They try, uh, they,

Starting point is 00:27:47 they, they've tried a lot of different things. I had, uh, I had a couple of raids from a local police department, the Herkimer, uh, village police.

Starting point is 00:27:56 Oh, and then this, The guy's the captain has me out front. He's trying to have a heart to heart. People are getting hurt on this. They're using this. They're getting hurt. I've been using Mando's whole body deodorant.

Starting point is 00:28:05 Let me tell you, you can use it anywhere. Pits, balls, thighs, and even your feet. Mando's powered by mandelic acid. So it stops odor before it even starts. It blocks odor all day. I'm talking 72 hours. I love the scents, too. My favorite is bourbon leather.

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Starting point is 00:29:23 Is that what you guys are doing too? People are getting, you know, that bar across the street sells alcohol. People kill each other driving drunk. Like, are you shutting them down? Like, what you're doing is perfectly legal. Why would they shut you? You know what I'm saying? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:29:36 Like somebody's telling him to do that. Right. And you know, you know what you're doing is hurting people, but it's by their choice. I didn't, like, hurt people my way of doing it. They came in and decided to purchase something. And some people aren't screwing their lives up with it. They do it in a bar. They do it at a casino.

Starting point is 00:29:54 7-Eleven, like people are going, they're getting off work, going to buying two six-packs going home and getting drunk and beating their wife and fucking kids. Like, shut down, shut down 7-Eleven, if that's what your real concern is. Yeah. And what is what are they, I'm sorry, when they come in and raid, what are they raiding for? What are they saying we're here to raid your place for what? What are they looking for? So at the end, when they came in and did the raid, they were, they had made buys in April of 2012 and they were and that the the buys that they made in April 2012 they were looking for the chemical

Starting point is 00:30:32 that was in that batch and what's crazy is when this all happens so they end up doing 14 search warrants at the exact same time so I am the the Syracuse area DEA's only target I'm the only person they're targeting and that's because they had to do 14 of them so you've got you know, but the FBI, all these, you know, the whole alphabet there, you've got local police, you've got all these people, in each one of these. When they're doing 14 of them at the same time, trying to make them simultaneous. So when they come in, they litter, I'm handcuffed, I'm sitting in a chair. I'm at my warehouse. There's about eight people there. And I'm by the door. And one of the undercover DEA, it comes over, and he's showing me on his phone. He says, hey, this guy, I'm like,

Starting point is 00:31:20 no, I don't know the guy at all. And he's like, yeah, that's me. And it's looking close. I'm like, yeah. So I went to your store and I made a couple of buys and he's showing me pictures, the stuff that he bought. And I'm like, so? You know? And he's like, yeah, that's, you know, it's band now. And I'm like, yeah, well, I'm aware of the ban on July 9th and you're going to see

Starting point is 00:31:39 when you have everything here, nothing here, right? Which was true. And it's crazy because they have somebody that comes in that looks completely out of place. Everybody else is uniformed. This guy comes in and I don't know who he is, but he must be something to do with a lab guy. He comes in. He does something for a while because I can't see around the corner where he's at. He comes back out and he kind of shakes his head.

Starting point is 00:32:00 He's looking at somebody and he kind of shakes his head and I'm going, yeah, you know? Right. I've got the new batch. I'm aware of that law. Everything I have is good. You know? So they are just interviewing people. There's eight people there in this warehouse. They're interviewing them and letting them go one at a time. And so now it's just me there.

Starting point is 00:32:22 And so at the end, I'm like, all right. Where are you taking me? I'm trying to figure out in my head. I'm trying to figure out the bail situation. What do? What do I have to? Who I have to call to try to get some money to come bail somebody out, right? And keep in mind, they are bringing out my safe is in my warehouse.

Starting point is 00:32:38 They are bringing out trash bags full of synthetic products, all kinds of weird stuff, cash. One bag was full of cash. They took everything from everywhere. And keep in mind, the number that is in my paperwork is not. the correct number, these scumbags, just a side note. It's not the same number. And yeah, so they're taking all of this stuff out. So I'm thinking for sure, I'm, you know, I'm going somewhere.

Starting point is 00:33:06 And at the end, the guy says, no, no, no, we're sending this to the lab. We know where to find you. And gives me a card says, you better call an attorney. That's it. They uncuff me and they leave. I'm going, wow, I'm shaking. I'm like, wow. So I, this is a crazy day.

Starting point is 00:33:25 And so by the time I get out, and they take my car, they take everything. They seize eight vehicles. They take all these vehicles. So I get a ride. I go home. I'm watching myself on the 6 o'clock news, raids all over all these stores. And, oh, the feeling, the punch in the gut, though. But even then, it's still not like, hey, this is, this is over.

Starting point is 00:33:46 This isn't the end. This is like, ah, they got me, kind of knew this was going to come. I kind of didn't say it was going to come, but I've got this, you know, I'm going to bail out. It's, you know, all of that kind of stuff. Are you, are you allowing yourself to think that at some point they will come up with something and I'm, what am I looking at? Or you thinking, no, I'm just going to keep beating them. Yeah. Yeah, you're always, life is always about risk versus reward.

Starting point is 00:34:16 Right. Right. And so earlier, that's why I never got into anything hard. It's risk versus reward. The risk is lower than the reward. I'm in. Right. So that's what I'm always weighing risk versus reward.

Starting point is 00:34:30 So at the whole time, I am never thinking that the risk is something crazy, right? Because in the end, the risk that they were threatening is a continuing criminal enterprise. Right. Because you're running, you have, you're conspiring with five or more people from three or more different locations to run a criminal enterprise. So in the end, that's the threat. Nobody knows it. That carries a mandatory minimum of 20 years.

Starting point is 00:34:53 Right. Keep it my mind. Right. So I don't understand that this gets the risk. Nobody knows what the feds are going to do when they come in. People know what happens on a state level because it happens all time. And when you're from a small town like I am, there's no federal trouble there. No one ever gets in.

Starting point is 00:35:07 It may be some drug thing here or there, but you don't know the inner workings of what happens when the feds come in. When they come in, they bitch slap everybody and take everything. And then they say it's guilty until proven innocent. And, you know, you don't realize that. at the time. So at the time, what do I think is the worst case scenario? A couple years? Yeah, so they leave, hey, you better get a lawyer. And I am, you know, I'm taking it serious, but I'm not taking it as serious as it is, right? So I go home, feel sorry for myself for the rest of the day, watching myself on the news. Everyone's calling me, what happened? I have all that kind of

Starting point is 00:35:45 stuff. So I get up in the morning, first order of business. Let's go find an attorney, right? Right. Now, I go and I talk to Les Lewis, my guy who's my favorite attorney ever. The problem with Les is he does state city stuff where I'm at. I'm being charged in federal court in Syracuse, which is 45 minutes away from me. And, you know, I've always thought if you're going to go get an attorney, especially for something important, you want somebody who knows everybody in that building. Plays golf with the judges and the DAs and, you know, that's who I'm looking for. So I'm going and I'm interviewing these attorneys. So I go into Jeff DeRoberts.

Starting point is 00:36:25 He's a prominent Syracuse attorney. He's telling me, oh, we're going to get this thrown out. This is nothing. It's unbelievable 16 days. Yeah, you didn't even know. You didn't know. You didn't know. You know, it's nothing.

Starting point is 00:36:35 We're going to get this thrown out. My fees, 25,000, blah, blah, blah. So I'm like, wow, okay, it's not so bad. And then I go into my attorney that I end up hiring George Hildenbrand. And I sit down. I tell him the story, and George Hillenbrand tells me, you're going to federal prison. Right. I'm like, whoa.

Starting point is 00:36:56 He's like, oh, yeah, you're going to federal prison. It's just a matter of how long. That's, it's just semantic from here, but you're going to federal prison. And I'm like, well, you know, it's been 16 days. They passed the law July 9th. I'm only in possession July 16th. And keep in mind a part that I'm leaving out here is they seized, you know, 100,000 grams of, you know, product. Right.

Starting point is 00:37:18 And the only thing I'm having a problem with, we had, I told you the health department tried doing some weird things. We had this old batch that was still legal in the state of Maine. It was only banned by the health department in the state of New York. And we were slowly sending this batch to Maine, right? It's civil. It's 8,000. Is that criminal or is that civil?

Starting point is 00:37:40 Yeah, it's only civil if you have a health department. It's like a health department violation. It's not a big deal. So we're taking it and we're slowly. It's just, it's what you can fit in one little bin this much. there ends up being 8,000 grams of this batch, right? Which you never sold. So, but you didn't sell in that, you didn't sell in the area.

Starting point is 00:37:58 Never sold it. It's the only thing, the only problem is I'm in possession of this 8,000 grams. Okay. So I go into George Hillamrand's office and it's 8,000 grams. So you look at this, when you have a synthetic drug case, they have to find the equivalent and they convert it to what its equivalent would be in grass. That's how they do it in the federal system. So I go in there and he says, no, no, no, they're not going to, this isn't going to be 8,000 grams of that.

Starting point is 00:38:30 They're going to convert this to something different. And it doesn't matter that it's been 16 days. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. You're going to federal prison. Right. So I go, wow. And I had been to see maybe three or four attorneys, but I just like to. He was up front.

Starting point is 00:38:47 He was prominent. Everything. So I end up hiring George Heldon Brent. And sure enough, as we go in to, as we go into the process, he's hearing from them. And they're telling him that they are going to charge this as a methyl something. It's a real long name. But it's basically like ice is what they're making this the equivalent of. Why not grass?

Starting point is 00:39:14 It is what it more closely represents. And they have a three-tiered system that determines what this is more closely to. What is more closely to in chemical structure. And there's all these different rules behind it. So, for example, if you took one gram of something illegal and mixed it in with 999 grams of something that's fully legal, baby powder. And you mix it in. It all becomes it. So that's the argument.

Starting point is 00:39:42 And they're saying, we're going to charge this. the conversion is 347 to 1. So 8,000 grams in the federal system is probation. It's nothing. It's not a big deal. Multiply that 8,000 times 347 gets a little, it becomes a big number. Right, right. And so what is that number?

Starting point is 00:40:02 10 years, 20 years? My guideline ended up being 87 to 108. That was my guideline range for that level. And yeah. So, 87 months. So it's, wow, seven years. This is nuts. But, you know, the whole time, this is what happens with attorneys, they tell you, there's all these extenuating circumstances. They can, you know, this isn't like normal. They're, you know, we're going to have an evidentiary hearing where we're going to argue this out. So what it was was I ended up taking a plea bargain to agree to possession of 8,000 grams of AM2201. And the deal was, that we would agree to disagree and argue later at an evidentiary hearing what that converted to. So when I went in to jail, it was I could get, if I win that evidentiary hearing, I could get probation, time served in probation. If I lose that, five, ten years, like not good, right?

Starting point is 00:41:04 So the whole beginning time that I'm in this county jail, my life is hinging on this evidentiary hearing. So that's a big one, right? Do you guys bring in your own expert? So we did. We hired one chemical expert, which George found, and they had two experts, and only one of them shows up to the hearing, which is crazy. And so we had this evidentiary hearing, and it's pretty crazy. The evidentiary hearing is you're in a courtroom, and it's weird, and the judge is sitting

Starting point is 00:41:39 they're listening to everything and you're you're both making your case to this argument my attorney opens up with a screen on the wall and it is the definition of what uh what this chemical is and it refers to it as a synthetic grass product it's now this is this this definition is on the DEA's website DEA dot gov so he says that and so they're there he says that she's on the stand their witness And she says, oh, no, that's outdated information. That's what we had at the time. We've since learned that these chemicals more closely resemble other things, and that's their argument, right? And so he says, would it surprise you to know that that's on the DEA's website this morning?

Starting point is 00:42:26 And she says, I just don't know why that's there. That's outdated information. There's these three prongs, and I forget what they are, but I'm telling you, we crushed them on two out of three for sure. we crushed him on two out of three. And I remember when I first hired my attorney, he had said, hey, let's hope we get Judge Hurd. He sentences drug cases very favorably. He's got a son who's like, you know, addicted and, you know, he sentences drug cases very favorably. Let's hope we don't get Mordue. He's the senior judge in the district. He's a former prosecutor. So, of course, I get the Honorable Norman A. Mordue. So, yeah, so I'm in a county jail.

Starting point is 00:43:08 I have three or four. You're in the county jail. When did you go in the county jail? So I'm in. You went from you had, you had, you had interviewed attorneys. You got your attorney. You had an evident. You pled guilty.

Starting point is 00:43:24 You have an evidentiary hearing. Why are you in the county jail? Yes. Why didn't they let you stay out until? So, so I was, they had let me stay out from the original time. So I hire George. We go in. I do the original plea with the stipulation that will argue the evidentiary hearing later down the road.

Starting point is 00:43:45 And at the time, oh, man, I was taking all kinds of pills, you know, just whatever. You know, just it was pretty crazy at the time. Overweight, just going nuts, making tons of money, not thinking too much. And when I was out, I had gotten pulled over in a gas station parking lot, and I had two of them. on me and they ended up I stayed overnight in the in the local city jail for that got out the next morning they they came and got me like literally a day or two later the feds did the feds seven deep marshals you're revoked because you're coming right now you were on pretrial release until sentencing and that violated your pretrial release violated it you're done you're getting put in

Starting point is 00:44:35 as of today so so that's what brain me to this county jail. I end up having, so we're, our evidentiary hearing is getting pushed off. So I'm in this, so I'm in one county jail. I'm, I'm in, originally in Nita County jail. And then Anita County fails to produce me for a hearing. Judge gets pissed off and says, no, bring them to this one. So it brings me to Kuyahua, one that's closer, because keep mine, Anita's 45 minutes away from Syracuse. So they bring me to the one that's closer. I have the evidentiary hearing from there. I have like two or three guys in my unit that are dying and waiting on seeing me because they have the similar cases and now they're trying to do this to everybody.

Starting point is 00:45:16 So there's a lot of people that are wondering what's happening with these hearings, who side are they going with? I come back with the bad news and now there's like four people, all kinds of, you know. You lose the evidentiary hearing. I lose the evidentiary hearing. I get a thing in the legal mail that, hey, we've found with them, whatever. So my lawyer's telling me that, you know, don't worry too much about this. You know, that obviously is terrible, but don't worry about it.

Starting point is 00:45:42 You know, we're going to make a pretty good case at sentencing that, you know, you were running a legal business that happened to start selling these products that were, you know, just banned for 16 days before your actual date of arrest. You know, he basically tells me there's this huge case for that, right? And so we get to sentencing. And no, I mean, in the federal system, you have a guideline range. And that's it. That's what they go by.

Starting point is 00:46:13 So my guideline range is 87 to 108. I get sentenced to 87 months. Colby's face. It's like, holy shit. So it's eight years, right? What is 87 months? Yeah. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:46:30 87 months is seven years and three. months. Yeah. Yeah. So that's pretty tough. And what's crazy is at the time, he's telling me, don't worry, you're going to get R-Dap, you're going to get this drug program, which gets you a year off, six months of it's going to be in the halfway house, all of these things. That's all true. Now, keep in mind, at the same time, right when I am charged federally, literally like a month later, I get raided by New York State, because I'm still running all these stores, you know. I get rated by New York State claiming tax evasion that I'm not paying my sales tax. And I was behind. I was completely not paying attention to sales tax. I had Les Lewis for that case. I gave him a check

Starting point is 00:47:12 for $187,000 to go perfect with it. But what they did was they basically said, hey, these first couple years where we don't have accurate returns from you, we're going to assume that you were making the same numbers these couple years as you weren't in the last ones, you know, which is nuts because, you know, it picked up heavier and heavier as we went. So they said that, you know, I underpaid $500,000 in sales tax, which is absolutely not true. I paid them. I did an accurate accounting and paid them. So when they come in, they're basically saying, hey, we can run this consecutive to your

Starting point is 00:47:49 federal time. But they're saying, listen, you just plead guilty to it and we'll agree to run this concurrent with your federal time. So I'm thinking, got to plead guilty to it. I'm already in federal custody. no problem, right? So I go plead guilty and the judge says,

Starting point is 00:48:06 I'm not going to accept this two to four that you've agreed on. No, this is half a million dollars. Grand Larson, it goes from 3,000. The grand Larson can be as belittal street. This is the way upper end of this and says, so I end up getting sentenced to a two to six instead of a two to four.

Starting point is 00:48:21 And this matters a lot. It runs concurrence. You don't get the art out if you've got the second charge, right? You don't get the ear off. So I had a detainer. So because I had a detainer from New York State, not only did I not get Ardap, because you can't go into Ardap if you have a detainer, but I also got no halfway house time. They, I was done with, with New York State, all six years had maxed in November of 2017. And my release date was May 21st of 18.

Starting point is 00:48:53 They did not send the paperwork to remove my detainer till May 2nd or 3rd, like two weeks. before I got out. So I had no, and then they offered to put me in for the halfway else. I had three weeks to go. You're offering right now, you're going to submit paperwork right now. I have three weeks.

Starting point is 00:49:09 I'm going home. So I never got any of that. But as you during my sentence, they came out with law. They called it drugs minus two. So drugs minus two was everybody who had a drug case, your sentencing guideline went down by two levels.

Starting point is 00:49:29 So you got what that. new number was. So I called my attorney asking what was happening. He said, no, they're not going to bring anybody back for it. They're just going to run through and do everybody's. I get legal mail one day saying, hey, sentence has been reduced to 70 months. Boom. Yeah, real. So, but I knew I had it come in. Everybody knew he had it coming. Unless you were like, unless you had been a career criminal or something else, they had two caveats that you wouldn't get it, but I got it. So, yeah, and you know, we're getting to the end of it there, but listen, the, you know, the, the, you know, the, The person that I was in whenever I started this, in this county jail, the person that I was compared to the person I was when I got out after doing 60 plus months in federal prison, as you know, it's completely different.

Starting point is 00:50:19 You know, federal prison, it's pretty crazy. Like I say, so I had, the minute I got to federal prison and you tell people, I got 87 months, In your mind, that's a huge number. You saw what he just said, 87 months, want to throw up, right? They're like, yeah, whatever. That's go, you know, be out in no time. What are you? It's not worth unpacking.

Starting point is 00:50:42 What are you even worried about? Why are you even upset right now? That's like 87 months. So, yeah, it's pretty crazy how some of those people are. But, yeah, so I end up, I lose the evidentiary hearing. I, I'm sick. I'm sick. they come and get you real quick, too.

Starting point is 00:51:01 As soon as you get sentenced, we make this huge argument. I stand up. I'm real nervous. I'm bumbling and blah, blah, blah. I don't even remember what the hell I said at my sentencing, but, you know, whatever it was, wasn't good enough. So I get sentenced to 87 months. You know, we're going through.

Starting point is 00:51:19 I go to a couple different little county jails to something in Albany County Jail. Then I go to MDC Brooklyn. This is my first taste of federal prison. right so this is a mdc brooklyn is an eight-story building with 8,000 inmates in this place and uh it's crazy looking you drive right through downtown Manhattan to go get in this thing you're on a bus you're seeing real people doing real things and you've been in a cement bunker for you know a year and uh you know so i i get to mc brooklyn and it's like wow this is pretty crazy so first night first night uh they're just go in, you go see medical, dental, you go see all these different people.

Starting point is 00:52:04 And so I get done with all the medical stuff. And they're about to put people in cells. And they're just taking people as they come in a line. All right, you two going here. You two going here. You two going here. So there's this, the two in front of me are a black dude with dreads and a white dude who is tattooed from his wrists to his neck with a big red cross on his neck, all tattooed up. and the black guy with the treads is like,

Starting point is 00:52:29 I'm not going in there with him. Are you nuts? You're going to put it. And the guys like, listen, you're going in there. You're going in there. He's like, I'm not. And even the other dude's like, no, man, what are you crazy?

Starting point is 00:52:39 And this guy in the third time, listen, go get the lieutenant. I don't care. I'm not selling with him. I don't care. He's getting ready to call. I'll go on with him. So I go in with this white dude. This is my first night in MDC.

Starting point is 00:52:50 Brooklyn. And this dude is crazy. Right. This is a fun, fun story. right so listen i go in there this guy is in the middle of serving a 20 year sentence in ok so he's in oklahoma state prison okay so he's in oklahoma state prison he's gang related all stuff he stabbed somebody got 20 years he's he's in all these gangs he's doing real real prison time with real prison people right and he was in the shoe and he used to tell he said i i can get a phone

Starting point is 00:53:21 anywhere i'm at i'm always getting these phones and i get a butt friendly phone i'm like but friend yeah yeah you boof it. And I'm like, you, you boof the phone? Oh, yeah, that's nothing. I get through the metal detectors, all this stuff. He's in the shoe with a phone. Well, he had had a previous cellie that was, was gay. And he had, they had a phone with his cellie, but out, out on the unit. And they were calling all these, like, gay chat lines. This guy was in all these, they were in newspapers at this time. They were calling through all these newspaper ads. They were calling these places. And they were extorting people. so he would go and he would call people and say all this crazy stuff to him flirt with him this this and this

Starting point is 00:54:03 then he would call them back and say hey listen this is detective ronald sanders you've just used an FCC communications device to solicit a minor you're in big trouble blah blah blah and he would get people to pay him money and send money to people out on the streets so it's crazy so they're doing this he's in the shoe he's doing this he's calling this guy Well, he gets a guy from Connecticut who is gay. He goes through the whole rigamar with him, and the guy is gay and is scared to death that his mom is going to find out. That's his one big thing. Cannot find out that I am gay, and it's huge.

Starting point is 00:54:40 So he's calling him. He's extorting this dude. He got this dude to send $25,000 cash in a shoebox to his girlfriend. He has got this guy sending him cash all the time telling him, you're going to, I'm telling you're going to go to jail. you're going to be busted, blah, blah, blah. They got like $300,000 from this guy whose parents are loaded, who's living in Connecticut. And he leaves the shoe, and he leaves it to this other guy and tells him,

Starting point is 00:55:07 give me a piece of the money that you get. You're going to pay me for what happens, but I'm going to leave this guy to you. You just introduce yourself as my supervisor. Keep it up. He's, trust me, this guy's good. He's going to send money, blah, blah, blah. So he does all that. He leaves the shoe.

Starting point is 00:55:21 The next guy gets on the guy on the phone with the guy. tells him all this crazy stuff and the guy's not telling him he's not going to get a little bit of at him trying trying not to give him money at him's trying to try not to give him money anymore he says I'm on your street right now I'm coming your house you're going to jail today hangs up on him so he's trying to play tough with the guy the guy goes upstairs and off himself oh my god because he did not he has couldn't have his mom know and so they come in they find the whole story they're getting records this could find out that somebody is in a state prison and doing this so now it's federal, they come in, they're, there, he's being brought to court in Connecticut to answer for this,

Starting point is 00:56:00 right? That's, that's this guy's story. This is my first night in. This is this guy's story. Wow, okay. This is the kind of people we're going to hang with. All right, I guess. And he's doing all these other things, too.

Starting point is 00:56:11 He's doing, uh, he was telling me his stories from the streets before he killed somebody and went to jail. He was doing some crazy stuff that was, he did a bunch of rental insurance scams. He was like, he, uh, completely tattooed. tattooed from here. I mean, this guy, you take one look at him and this guy's like... But he was good on the phone. A, B, or something crazy.

Starting point is 00:56:30 Yeah, he's obviously very charismatic on the phone, I guess, right? So, but he's doing everything on the streets. His story is just great. His whole life is just crazy. Doing rental insurance scams. He scammed his own girlfriend, robbed his own house, had her claimant on the rental insurance and told her after. Yeah, but I got us money, right?

Starting point is 00:56:47 Claims jewelry is crazy stuff. Yeah, who hasn't done that one, right? Yeah. Oh, yeah. So he's, that gives me a view of what I'm in for, right? And then to make it even crazier. So that's the first night. Now you go upstairs to your unit.

Starting point is 00:57:02 So once you pass your medical everything, you go up to your unit. So I go up to the seventh floor, literally second day. And I go up to the seventh floor. And right when I get there, when you get into a unit, people are kind of wondering, what are you all about, especially when you're like a guy like me, They want to know if you're a Chomo. They're all kinds of different stuff. They want to know, what's your case?

Starting point is 00:57:25 What are you doing here? What's up? They're asking all this stuff. And so I'm telling my case is a little rare. It's not often to see people that have a similar case to mine. So this guy, a young guy, comes right to me. Hey, I heard you've got an AM2201 case. And I said, yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 00:57:44 So he starts asking me some questions. And really, he's originally he's asking me so he can, you know, because people will send him over. Hey, see if that guy's really here. for that. Ask him some questions, see if that's, you know, if his story matches up, if that's right. So originally it's just that. But then once he realizes that's what I'm there for, he is doing the same thing. He has an evidentiary hearing. And this four guys, so mine was 8,000 grams. His case is like 250,000 grams. It's like, I'm telling him, he's like, so what happened? I tell

Starting point is 00:58:14 him the whole story of the evidentiary hearing. And I'm like, yeah, you know, and I lost. And he's doing the math on his like you know carry the one fuck like you know you know not good a crazy number and uh so you know i depressed him for a little bit but you know so he kind of heard my story and he's like yeah you know ross albright's here and i go the the guy from silk road and he's like yeah so i'm like oh sweet so we sit down with him play a little cards now ross was his his attorneys were very smart They told them, do not discuss your case with anyone, anytime, any reason, ever. You know, so me not knowing he's already told everybody this and made this very clear. So, you know, I'm sitting down playing cards.

Starting point is 00:58:56 So I want to know, is this little girl guy? Let me ask him some questions. So I asked him about that. And, you know, what was going? He's like, listen, my, you know, in front of everyone, my lawyer said not to discuss my case at all. Oh, all right. I just, that was kind of crazy. It's you, you know, this is a guy who's in the national media.

Starting point is 00:59:13 They're trying to give this guy a life sentence, which they did. and, you know, here he is in the same unit as me. So it's like a wake up to jail. And this guy had double bunk, everybody's double bunk, but him. His top bunk is full of books. The whole thing all the way. So I'm like, great. I literally, I used to joke with him that I got to have my library card kind of deal, you know,

Starting point is 00:59:36 and I'd just go and borrow books in the same unit as him for a couple of weeks. You know, but that just lets you know. That's like a prequel to what you're about to. see here. So I go from MDC Brooklyn to where we stop, Cannon, and you don't know where you're going and all of a sudden bus stops at Allenwood. Allenwood is a complex, has a penitentiary, a medium, and a low. So stops there, boom, I'm getting off, I'm going to the medium. All right. So I go to Allenwood medium. First night I'm there. I go up there. I go up there. They assign you a unit.

Starting point is 01:00:17 And I'm on my way to the unit. I run into this guy, Tim, that I was in the county jail with. Now, this guy is, he's, this guy's nuts, right? This guy is crazy, like, white power, racist kind of guy. He has a tattoo going all down his arm with a bunch of grenades, and it says six million more down his arm. So this guy is a crazy lunatic, right? But it's crazy that I see him because when I was in, so I was originally in a night of county jail, and that's where I met him.

Starting point is 01:00:52 So I don't know this guy from a hole in the wall. I met him there. Well, I had not been produced for a hearing, so I go over to Cayuga County Jail. When I'm in Cayuga County Jail, I'm with two co-defendants of his. One of them, guys name is Terry. He's literally going to trial while I'm there. And Tim is taking the stand in his trial. against him. Right. He's literally got like all the stuff from it. He's got witness lists,

Starting point is 01:01:20 all this stuff because you can't really call somebody out like that and not be able to, he's like, look, he's on all these crazy facts. And so when you're on your way to go to federal prison, you're hearing all this stuff about, you better have your paperwork straight and you need your sentencing minutes and you're this and that. And so I'm, I get to a medium, which is crazy because it's a lot rougher than the lows. And as soon as I get there, the first guy I see, I know this guy testified against somebody else. I'm like, what the hell is going on here? So he's very weird because he knows I went to Kyuga County Jail.

Starting point is 01:01:53 He knew the whole story. And he's like, hey, what's up, man? You need anything. I'm going to talk to the store guy in your unit, all this. He's happy to help. And he's like, yeah, you know, so you're on a 10-minute move. So I got to keep going. I got to keep it moving.

Starting point is 01:02:05 And so I'm just talking to him briefly. And he's like, come out to the yard tomorrow. We got to walk the track together. We got to talk, you know. I got to make sure you're not going to say anything. Yeah, that's his worry. You know it. He's got, he, because you never know that bus shows up.

Starting point is 01:02:18 Who's on it? They know my dirty little secret that I've been, you know, cooperated on somebody, whatever else. And so I'm like, damn, man. And this is nuts because I get to my unit. And he is, you know, in jail, there's, you know, you got your car. So I am a white guy from upstate New York. So my car's eight guys on the compound.

Starting point is 01:02:37 White guys from upstate New York. It's not, it's not a lot. And he's running the car. And so, wow. Okay, so that's pretty crazy. Nobody knows. Absolutely nobody knows. And I'm getting there that's, you know, first of all, I don't want to fight this.

Starting point is 01:02:51 This guy's nuts. This guy is jacked up. He's crazy. And I'm going, wow, this is a crazy predicament. So long story short, I never say anything. I don't tell nobody about this guy. I don't give a shit. That's, I'm getting there.

Starting point is 01:03:03 Does he ever address it to you? Like, did you hear something? When he walks the, when we go and we walk the yard, he's asking me questions, trying to pry who you're with, all that. Now, I'm not telling him I know because I don't even want to get into that. He asked me flat out, was Terry there? Because he took the stand against Terry. And so he's asked flat out, was Terry there?

Starting point is 01:03:23 And I'm like, yeah, yeah, he was there. And, you know, but no, he never, you know, that was it. Somebody else was in his case. So I knew a few people in common. And, you know, these guys were all, you know, he's one of the, he's doing crazy stuff. But so I get to the unit at the medium. and the medium is a crazy deal. So the first speech you get,

Starting point is 01:03:45 somebody, whoever's in the unit, they come up to you, you got to get your paperwork. These guys were really on that. Want to know who's who, and they tell you, basically you got to get your sentencing minutes because in the federal system,

Starting point is 01:03:54 you have a guideline range, and if the judge goes above or below that guideline range, he has to state for the reason, for the record, why he went above or below that guideline range. So they tell me, you got to get your sent minutes in.

Starting point is 01:04:06 It's got to come straight from your lawyer. Get it sent in here. And when you see your name on a sign for the league, mail you go get somebody they'll go pick it up so that's what I do I tell them hey legal mail's here I stuff's here so and they're telling me I knew how to play Pinole so there's very few guys that I could relate to in this unit but Vinnie Giottino's there Vinnie is a Vinnie's god she's middle late 60s old mob related guy five life sentences killed 60 people okay this guy killed 60 people you and what's funny is at the time i'm there there's a book going around the unit

Starting point is 01:04:47 called the butcher and it's about his co-defendant Tommy karate who's in allenwood penitentiary and him and uh so i get there i know how to play pinnacle he's like yeah come there you know you got you got to got to get you got to as soon as you get your paperwork in as soon as i do you're at like six man cells i get right in a two man cell my celly is a guy called johnny b another uh related guy he's uh Fun as hell. But so me, Johnny B. Vinnie, we're playing Pinole every day.

Starting point is 01:05:14 That's all Vinny wants to do. He's got five life sentences. He's got nothing better to do. He got away from the penitentiary. His goal is to be left the fuck alone and play Pinole every day and let this time pass, right? And so he's sort of a jail mentor to me at this time. So, oh, so this is like a lesson. And hey, this is what it's going to be, right?

Starting point is 01:05:37 Now, at the same time, my personal life is going to be. going to shit because now I've been in jail a little over a year. And my wife at the time had come to see me a few times. But, you know, you knew that was coming, answering the phone less and less. You know, some things are coming. So she's out. And then like a few days after I get to the medium, I get on the phone with my buddy Jay. And he's like, yeah, yeah, she's pregnant. You know, I'm pregnant already. Oh, great. Here we go. Right. So you got that sick feeling, but that kind of motivates you. I'm doing tons of push-offs. I'm getting in shape. I was a fat-ass when I went in, I'm, you know, I'm doing great, you know, letting that, you know, obviously that's sickening,

Starting point is 01:06:16 but you're letting that motivate you, you know? So, uh, so I had about a year of this, right? And Vinnie was just the entertainment for you. Try to get me not to go over to the low. You've got like a review every year. Vinny is literally, this guy is one of the most entertaining people I've ever seen. I would ask him, he's, you got to get comfortable with somebody. I learned very early. You don't ask somebody how much time you got. Right. The first time I go, this guy. This guy's telling me he's from Utica. Yeah, my case is from Utica too. He's close for him. I'm like, yeah, how much time you got? He's like, life plus 88. Oh. Like foot and mouth. What you learn very early. Probably should stop asking that question.

Starting point is 01:06:55 And then I'm coming there with poor me. I got 87 months. These people are hearing 87 and it sounds like a vacation to them. They're like, 80s and months. Go stand in a corner on your head. Yeah, this will be over for you. What are you doing? Vinny always talked to. What are he was doing? You know, it'll be over before you know it. Forget about her. Forget about all that stuff. You're fine.

Starting point is 01:07:15 Sit right here. We'll play pinnuckle. You're fine. That was Vinny's attitude towards everything. So I got comfortable with Vinny. And I would ask him questions like, what would you do? If they let you out, you all of a sudden got out tomorrow, what would you do? And most people would tell you some sort of life plan.

Starting point is 01:07:32 He's like, oh, there's a few people. Be real scared of that. I tell you right now. He's like, there's a couple people. He's like, there's a couple people. I'll be at the door with a shot. shotgun and as a matter of fact guy right now owes me money and i tell you you don't want to see me i'll tell you that much you know and he was he was just very matter of fact i remember when i first got there

Starting point is 01:07:50 i'd go up to his cell and he would point you see this bed right here i'm gonna die in that bed right there right so don't fuck around i don't need you know i came here to have the peace from the politics that go on over there but i'm not going to be disturbed in this it's going to be a problem i don't know this is it so that's just the kind he was but he was he was the right so i tell you the book's going around the unit. And so he's like, I said, hey, I heard there's a book going around about you. And he's like, yeah, did you read it yet? I'm like, no, but I will, you know. So now I'm reading the book about a guy who is a serial killer for all intents and purposes, basically working in the cell with him. Is this you're selling? No, but there's only three Italians there.

Starting point is 01:08:28 So I'm selling with Johnny B, who's the other guy playing Pinnacle with us. There's only three Italian, Vicarina is the other Italian guy that's there. So Vicarina is the other guy. It's there. Viceroena's the other guys there. Vic is old, like almost like almost wheelchair old. And there's eight Italian guys on the whole compound. These guys keep to themselves. Now, by no means am I like in with the Italian guys, but I'm like hanging with them and playing Pinochle with them every day. So I'm not really like a part of their car or their group, but there's very little people that will come in and literally the fact that I knew how to play Pinnacle and plus had money to gamble. Vinnie's the best Pinnacle player I've ever played against my life. I probably love.

Starting point is 01:09:07 lost $500 this guy. We played for quarters and he smoked me. I literally got bought him something from the store every week, bought him something. Like, so he loved me. It's, it's, it's his little entertainment. He's got five life sentences. He's, it's nothing happening for him.

Starting point is 01:09:24 So I'm what's happening for him at that time. So, so yeah, so I'm talking to him every night. It's literally we're, we're, I worked at Unicorn. So I go to Unicorn,

Starting point is 01:09:35 soon as I find out I can do Excel Spray. spreadsheets and stuff. I'm in the business office at unicorn. As soon as I get out, it's pinnacle, the rest of the night, all the way to 10 o'clock count. And, uh, and, you know, everything in between. I literally cooked with these guys. Vinnie was the best cook I ever seen best. This guy's already been in 25 years. I mean, it's, uh, his, his story's absolutely crazy. He's, he's pre 87 law. He's, he's five life sentences. So, uh, yeah, so man, Vinnie would, uh, all these Italian guys, they got nicknames, right? Like, uh, his nickname was cojack and uh and so uh i said i said hey why'd they call you cojack and he's like because

Starting point is 01:10:13 i always get my guy you know he's like just the way he talking about because i always get my guy you know and i said well how come how come they don't call you a cojack in here you know like everybody else still has whatever their street name was they're still being called that in here and he leans over and he goes they're still looking for that guy just the tells you the kind of guy that he is he's just just a riot uh so yeah the medium is a little bit um so yeah the medium is a little bit of a little bit of little different atmosphere, tough to be in because you're locked in every night, a lot of lock-ins, one thing happens, you're done. I am, my year comes up. I'm dying to get over to the low, you know? Why did they send you to a medium to begin with? I had, I had an assault, this, this kid,

Starting point is 01:10:56 Matt Pritchard, this kid lived next door to my sister. My sister was being an asshole, being loud as hell, but just a terrible neighbor. And he pushed in her door. My mom's there. And, And he pushed my sister, spit my mom's face like this kid did some crazy. So I was drunk leaving a bar, early 20s. All I did was hang out in bars, I was drunk leaving a bar. And I had a little bat that I carried in the car. And I gave him 17 staples in the back of his head. You know, I did actually plead guilty to a felony for that when that was a rough one.

Starting point is 01:11:27 That was early life before all this craziness, you know. But yeah, I gave him 17 staples. So that charge, I had a detainer that booster points up. that's into the medium. Yeah, so I had, and I had, I think, 15 points. I think it's 14, you go to the low. I had like one or two too many. It was really close on the line.

Starting point is 01:11:46 Yeah, I came in with two points. Oh. And because of a detainer. Oh, but your time put you at. Yeah. But then the detainer, when the detainer came off, I was like, I think I had one or zero. But it still didn't matter. Like every time I get the, when I went to the medium,

Starting point is 01:12:02 every time you talk to a counselor, they'd be like, why are you here? They're like, I don't know. Oh. They'd be like, oh, yeah, yeah, you're going to be here for a little bit. I was there for like three years. As soon as I got 20, they're like, we got to get you out of here. Yeah. I didn't want to leave.

Starting point is 01:12:14 I didn't want to leave. Oh, yeah. I didn't want to leave because, you know. It's very nerve-wracking. Well, because everybody talks, everybody goes to the low and it's open bay. And then they come back, they're like, bro, it's sucked because it's loud. And they tell you, there's 600 chomels on that yard. There's 1,200 chom-a-old.

Starting point is 01:12:30 You don't want to go over there. You'll be right back. What are you nuts? There's 600 chomoles on that yard. They're all rats walking around. There's just nuts. You tell me it's crazy stuff. This is the thing.

Starting point is 01:12:40 Like, I don't, I didn't care about the chombe. Like, they, they keep to themselves. You're saying? Yeah, you're never going to be bothered by a chomo. Yeah, there's, yeah, there's no badass chomo. Yeah, no. Actually, I take that back. There was a guy who was like a former Marine.

Starting point is 01:12:54 And he beat the shit out of multiple people. Because guys, he didn't want, he didn't want to be called a chomo. He didn't want to. And guys, every once in a while you get somebody, fuck you, you fuck. And he'd be like, hey, man, back on. What you're going to fuck it? And he beat the tar out of him. He actually beat so many guys' asses.

Starting point is 01:13:09 Eventually, they shipped him. Other than that, though. And that was because people were attacking and were yelling at him or calling him names or being disrespectful. And other than that, they keep to themselves. And so they didn't bother me because, and they didn't go in the TV rooms. Like, they were excluded from all that. No rights, as you would call it. They have no rights to do nothing.

Starting point is 01:13:28 You go away. And I'd say half out of the 1800 inmates. There's really between 1,800 to 2,000 inmates at the low. Half had charges by the time I... Now, when I first got there, I think it was like one-third, but they keep arresting these guys. Yeah. So eventually, and a lot of people were,

Starting point is 01:13:48 you would find out, like, because you kind of knew who they were, and you were like, yeah, if you do the numbers, like it's not, it's not, but maybe 20, 25%, maybe 30%, but you start to realize, like, no, wait a minute, this guy is here for a drug case, but he has a previous charge. You see what I'm saying? Like they had previous charges. So they would be like, yo, bro, I'm good.

Starting point is 01:14:10 I'm here for this. And they'd be like, oh, okay. And then if you started doing the numbers, you'd go, you shouldn't be here at all. You know what I'm saying? And then you realize, oh, wait a minute, you had another charge from the state or you had a charge before. This is your second time here. That kind of stuff would, you'd find it.

Starting point is 01:14:28 But yeah, it ended by the time I was done. I'd say it was probably half. Yeah. But it was, it was half of that. What they didn't bother me. What bothered me was it was so, one, I didn't like not having a cell door,

Starting point is 01:14:39 closing the door, because it was quiet. And it was so loud all the time. It was always loud. At least in the medium, you got to walk in your door, close your door, and it was quiet.

Starting point is 01:14:52 I mean, is that your, and it had to be awkward. So if I wanted to come by, it was awkward for me to come by yourself. But in the, low it's just you're walking right by anyway so you could just come strike up a conversation any jerk off anytime strike up a conversation you're trying to read a book or do something different but you said so did you so when you got to the year and you went to the low did you try and stay in the medium no no i uh so

Starting point is 01:15:16 allenwood medium didn't have weights i think allenwood pen is one of the only pens that still has weights the medium didn't have weight somebody threw a weight through a window they took them from there and the low had weights and when i went to julys jail. Like I said, I was doing, I was doing pills when I first went to jail. I, uh, I was a fat ass. I didn't care about health at all. I, uh, I read a great book, Timothy Ferris, the, the four-hour work week from Timothy Ferris. Then he read another book called the four-hour body, and it's all about just hacks on your body. So I read this thing. I increased my bench press. I was, I was benching 20 when I got at Allenwood low. I was, uh, so I wanted the weights. I wanted to get over.

Starting point is 01:15:55 It was all about when I get out. And there's something about, uh, your wife. leaving you when you're in there. There's something about that. Yeah, just that's sitting on your shoulder. That's great for you to have. You need a chip on your shoulder to make you go out there and kick ass. And that was sort of mine. And yeah.

Starting point is 01:16:15 And funny story about that. So then I go to the low. And my buddy Jay is one of my best friends in the world. I talk to them all the time. And I call them. And one of my ex-wives best friends, she was best friends. She was best friends with this girl for years as at Jay's house because his girlfriend and her very good friends. So he says, hey, you want to talk to Katie?

Starting point is 01:16:38 I get on the phone with her. We kind of go back and forth a few times. I get her number. I start calling her, start getting a little crazy. You got the emails I'm sending just getting a little crazier and crazier. She used to be one of my ex-wife's best friends and we're still together today. And so she was with me the whole rest of the time and the low. was great, sending in all kinds of stuff, bringing my kids to see me, was a great person to me.

Starting point is 01:17:05 And, you know, that makes you feel good chip wise too, you know. Upgraded. She's so much of a better person. Everything about it is just, you know, that part of it's crazy. But yeah, the low is a different world. And people don't realize this. It's just crazy. I mean, you're only going over in a little fan. I mean, I can see the place. And I get my stuff put it in a bag and drive over to this little place. But it's you change a whole world. I tell people that about like when you go to the shoe, you think of a month's gone by. It's you think of how much has happened to you, but basically just go lock yourself in the bathroom for 30 days. That's what I've done.

Starting point is 01:17:41 I haven't left these four walls for 30 days. It's a whole different world than you're living. Yeah. The entire world becomes that, that prison. Like there gets to a point where it's almost like nothing else exists other than like it's everybody you communicate. Everybody, well, because you're still communicating with people. people on the outside. But for the most part, like your whole world is in there. I know exactly. It's insane. Yeah. And you're like, this is my life. It is, uh, it's different. The day you're

Starting point is 01:18:08 going to go up and moved and you're going to start a new job and a new life and new people. And you just left the old life behind. And so when I, when I go over to the low, I'm bringing messages from Vinnie. So Vinny writes down messages. They know somebody's there. I know I'm looking for a dude Paulie when I get there. So I get there. Paulie. Paulie. Anthony. So Paulie's what I'm looking for when I get there.

Starting point is 01:18:35 First day, I'm going to the Chowall, and I hear this high-pitched, Joe John, this guy, Kwan, very good guy. He's from Rome, New York. There are, I have met three people ever in federal prison that were from Rome, New York. Not very common. And I happen to have known this guy for a long time. He's just there for random drug charge. but as weird as it is, he's there, he's like running the whole blood car in this low.

Starting point is 01:19:03 There's 600 Jomo's not a lot of people that are, that I'm going to end up hanging out with. And my first, the first person that I know, which is very weird for me to know somebody in here. Like if you came from a bigger city, you'd know a bunch of people. There's a lot of people that you'd run in contact with. I don't know anybody. It wasn't expecting to know anybody. So that's crazy. So I ask him, hey, I got to find Paulie.

Starting point is 01:19:25 I got a message from him from next door. So the guy goes and meets me on the next move. And that's how I get introduced to him. So I give him the message. And he calls over a guy that's in my unit. Hey, this guy's in your unit. You just got here from next door. Make sure he gets whatever he needs, all that kind of stuff.

Starting point is 01:19:43 But I got to meet the very few good guys that are there from that are there in the low. and the low was, it's a different animal. It takes them getting used to, there's no TV rooms. The medium I was in, there's not even TV rooms. There's TVs in the center of the units.

Starting point is 01:20:04 Yeah. That's it. Like, you get to the low, and I would tell people it's all the time. So you're at the lowest, a bunch of TVs on the wall, and you got a radio, and you're tuning into 103 is that TV,

Starting point is 01:20:14 1061 is that TV, and you have a headset in yours. It's a room full of TVs and you just pull out a plastic chair and you're watching TV. At the media, there were no TV rooms. At the low, there were TV for us. Right. Yeah, no, that's what I'm saying. That's what it was here. So at the low,

Starting point is 01:20:29 it's weird to get used to because you go in there and you're like, okay, this wasn't there. It's kind of crazy. I could just come in here and watch any show. And TVs are very controlled. Somebody has every TV. You're not going to go in there. You're not, it's not like I'm going to go, hey, let me just throw this on. No, that's not happening. You're, you got to kind of get in wherever somebody who has similar interests. If you like football, I'll go watch football with you, whatever it is. So, yeah, and the TV rooms are just, they're nuts, people are crazy. So, yeah, this, so funny, this guy, so at the low, John Corniglia, he's just this, John's this great guy.

Starting point is 01:21:06 John is actually pre-1987 law. So he's got parole coming up. He's been there, he's been in prison so long, he's got parole coming up. He would tell you, he went from the pen to the medium to the low. You go out to the yard, and there's a, you're a. landfill right there. And it's full. It's not even used anymore. And he's like, yeah, you see that? That was a lawn when I got here. That was they built the whole landfill, filled the whole thing over the years, bringing trash, bringing trash, filled it, sealed it and don't even use it anymore. I've been watching

Starting point is 01:21:39 that since that was, that was a flat lawn when I got here. You're like, wow, okay. Yeah. So, so John's pre-87 law, his co-defendant is Gene Gotti. And he is allegedly, the guy that actually shot Paul Castellano, that famous Sparks Steakhouse shooting. He is allegedly, and it's in a bunch of books. Yeah, there was, I think, three shooters. It was the driver and Paul Castellano. And he's allegedly one of these guys. So when I tell you this guy, you know, all these Italian guys that got something going on,

Starting point is 01:22:15 but this guy's like literally a legend. It's kind of crazy. So one of the guy, one of the other guys was in the low, with me. Oh, okay. He was, been his probably in 60s gray hair, short, stocky guy. I can't remember his name, but everybody, same thing. They were saying like he was one of the shooters. You know, they all put on their, the Russian hat, you know, and they all, and he was supposedly one of the shooters, you know, he would never say that, but everybody, that was like the rumor. Of course, I never asked him. Yeah. Oh, no, you would never ask him that, but he is, you know, he carried himself

Starting point is 01:22:47 like that. You could tell this was a guy who's been a legend this whole life. He's a John God, you know, Gene Gotti's his co-defendant. John Gotti's really tight with him. He's, you know, this guy's got stories. Yeah, yeah. But what's weird is, so like John's, you know, 74, whatever he is, right? Like, he was, he was old at the time. And, you know, you'd think somebody old and not able to defend himself.

Starting point is 01:23:07 Nobody would ever think of even looking at this guy sideways, just because he just carried that kind of respect. I was going to say, I was also locked up with two of the guys that were, gosh, what is the, the, it was, there's a, there's a, there's a, there's a, there's, the movie, Donnie Brasco. Yeah. Two of the guys that got taken down by the Donnie Brasco thing were in the medium. And the show, the Donnie Brasco would come on TV and people would be like, hey, hey, Pauliards, hey, Jimmy. Hey, they got Johnny Brasco. And these guys would go off.

Starting point is 01:23:43 That motherfucker. They'd start screaming and hollering. I mean, sorry. Yeah. I know. Well, listen, that gives me a flashback. So when I was at the medium, uh, uh, uh, uh, my guy

Starting point is 01:23:54 God, why am I drawing a blank on his name right now? Vinny, so Vinny would do the same exact thing. He was like part of the Luftanzaheis. So like he was like involved in that somehow and he would do the same thing. Just somebody they may look good in the movie. He was a rat. He wasn't this tough guy they make him look in the movie.

Starting point is 01:24:14 Yeah, he didn't like any of that shit. He was he was real furious about that stuff. Oh, they'd have a real wake up. Vinny is rooting for anarchy. He wants like the world to end in the craziest way. He's rooting for something to be so bad that the United States government can't hold him anymore. Like he's looking for craziness in life. And what's crazy is so after Johnny B left, my next celly started to backtrack to the previous prison,

Starting point is 01:24:40 but after Johnny B. left, I got John Petra Selly. So John Petra Selly was an Italian guy, real cool guy, 45 years old. He had, oh, God, so John had. six co-defendants. They had a racketeering case, and there was a homicide in the racketeering case. John was actually the one that stabbed the guy. Well, so the racketeering case, if you have a racketeering case with a homicide, it's mandatory life.

Starting point is 01:25:08 They came and offered them 20 years, offered them all 20 years. But with these guys, how it has to be is you all have to take the deal or nobody can. And people don't understand that because when you allocute, you say, yes, I did stab Bob, but I have to say that, hey, I did with you stab Bob, right? You have to like, you have to implicate somebody else. So these guys can't, they all take a plea or nobody does. So everybody wanted it, but one holdout. They don't take a plea. It's mandatory life. There's no other, it's not a surprise game. There's no guess what the sentence is going to be. It's a mandatory minimum. So John Petruselli gets life and you see the difference between active,

Starting point is 01:25:49 lively Vinny crazy blah blah blah but and John was just he'd watch the TV and he'd see a pizza and he'd go never gonna eat pizza again yeah he'd see a girl I'm never gonna have sex again and he just so down and he just felt like a burden on everybody he had so great people great family coming in doing all this stuff for him and he's like all I'm ever going to be is a burden to people that's all I'm ever going to do so you see those people that's the life you're living there and there's 200 lifers at Allenwood medium. There's 200 of these guys there. Then you get to the low. There's none of that.

Starting point is 01:26:23 There's none of the mediums. There's people going home all the time. And I don't know what the max sentence is, but it's not a lot. There's not a lot of people sitting there with still 18, 20 years left to go on their sentence when you get to these lows. At the low, I would say there were a few people that had those outrageous sentences, but only, and we were talking about 2000, there's a couple, and they're old. they're like because they start lowering your points when you get to be 70 75 they're like yeah well that's this guy gonna do this guy's got 20 more years to go and he's 75 he's dying here

Starting point is 01:26:56 and he's not climbing two fences and getting through the barbed wire and he's not and he's not stabbing he's not hurting anybody like come on like get him out of the medium let's we we need that cell for somebody who's truly going to be a problem so there so i'd say yeah it's very very few but most people, like I think the average sentence at the medium was probably in the 20s, probably 15 to 20, and at the low it was probably 7 to 10. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:27:23 You know what I'm saying? It's way low. And yours had to be pretty high though, right? Like when you got there, because you would just got under the 20 to go, right? It was still, no, I still had 20 to go. Yeah, so you're, that's crazy because when you get there, you're telling people 20 years and you're around a bunch of people that are averaging.

Starting point is 01:27:38 Well, what's worse is when you go to the medium and you're sitting at a table, at the medium, you don't get to complain at all because the moment you're sitting there like, yeah, man, I got 26, fucking, 26 years for, for a white collar crime. And you're thinking you're going to get a little sympathy because when I first got there, I'm complaining. Like I realized right away, probably within a month or two, but my cousin said, stop complaining. Like, nobody wants to fucking hear you're complaining. You see that guy over there? He's going to die in here. See that guy? And that's what happened. I was at a table, like the first couple of days. And they were like, oh, what do you hear for? Because they're trying to figure out a

Starting point is 01:28:11 you're a Cho or not, right? And I'm like, oh, a bank fraud. I'm like, yeah, I got fucking 26 years for bank fraud. And one guy's got like, he's got like 45 years. And then this guy is got, you know, whatever, you know, 60 years. And this guy's telling me, yeah, I'm going to die in here. I'm leaving here in a box. And you realize like, fuck. Like, this sucks. And I'm saying. Like, you guys are, this is horrible. So I, and like I said, a few weeks later, I was with my cousin who was locked up. And he was like, yeah, listen, you need to stop fucking complaining because nobody gives a shit about your, he was nice about it. But nobody cares about your time. You're going to leave here.

Starting point is 01:28:50 A lot of these guys aren't leaving here. And there's a lot of guys there that just aren't leaving, all even in like a box. Yep. And they're all trying to have that level of bravado, like they don't care. But inside, you know, it's, you know, you know that. You know inside you're like, oh, geez. And, you know, like the movies make it look crazy, right? So like bank robber guys.

Starting point is 01:29:09 you're in a movie they go in they fire one off into the ceiling just to let them know they mean business then they go rob the bank yeah that's like an enhancement that's like 60 years on your sentence you run into those guys that just changed you possibly getting 10 years to 25 years like that little shot that didn't you didn't we aren't trying to kill anybody you weren't trying to 15 years because you fire just to let everybody know you're serious what if the difference between having a note and having a gun three years 10 years 10 years 10 Ten years. Three years and doing this to show him you have a gun is ten. Did. So, no.

Starting point is 01:29:45 Yeah. Yeah. I actually met somebody who only got three. My guy, Ivan. Ivan was nuts. And he was just all messed up on drugs. Robbed one bank got caught. And he went in.

Starting point is 01:29:54 He slid the bank teller a note. And then he looks at her and goes, I'm sorry. She tells the story to him. He apologized to me. He's very nice about it. He was shaking. He said me, no, no, I'm sorry. I'm really sorry about this.

Starting point is 01:30:08 So you get the light ones. Yeah, that's what happens. People see it on TV. You're doing all the stuff. You see somebody do it. You think it's a great idea. You're going to bank. I realize you discharge a firearm in the bank.

Starting point is 01:30:17 You're getting enhancements. It's adding 20, 30 years on your sentence. And you run into those guys. That's real. People do that. They're in there going, you're like, wow, that's, it's pretty common. And it's pretty crazy when you're thrust into that. And you're in my situation and you think, 87 months, Jesus, just for, you know, this was legal, 16 days.

Starting point is 01:30:38 Everybody justified. whatever the hell you did to yourself, you know, that this is, I've been wrong. This is crazy. I don't belong here. And it's nice to get that rude awakening of like, hey, listen, man, what are you crying about? All these guys are. And when you see the ones that aren't leaving, that'll make you realize it. So, yeah, the, the low is much better than that. I found the weights, the moves. Moves always happened, you know, 10 minute moves were clockwork in the medium. It was, you'd have a move, not go for three hours. You don't know why.

Starting point is 01:31:12 You still don't know why. It just moved didn't happen for three hours. You know what's funny. You know what moves are, right? I'm assuming you're like moving from yourselves to like the next unit or outside or something. I don't know. Right. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:31:25 Well, I feel like I've explained this to him. Yeah. So like if you have, let's say in Coleman, you had three units, three big buildings. There's four units in each building. So, but there's three, let's say how, let's say a big apartment. complex. But the wreck yard is across the compound, maybe a hundred yards or

Starting point is 01:31:47 200 yards across. So you have to walk there. You can leave your building and you have to walk to the rec yard or you have to walk to the education or you have to walk to Unicorn, right? So what happens is the compound's closed like the door's locked. You can't get out. But once an hour for 10 minutes, they unlock the door and then they announce it and they'll go

Starting point is 01:32:07 10 minute move, 10 minute news, move. and the CEO will open the door for 10 minutes. And so everybody, all these buildings, they flood people flood out of them. And they're going this way and this way and this way and this way. And you got 10 minutes. Because in 10 minutes, they're going to be like, we're closing the compound, closing the compound. And they close the compound.

Starting point is 01:32:24 If they close that door and you're still on the compound, then they can, they don't always typically give you a shot, but they'll yell at you. But they'll lock the door. And then you're having to bang on the door to let get the guard to open it up. And they might open it up and be like, what are you doing? So, you know what I'm saying? And they might write your shot like, no, the compound was closed and you were outside the door and they'll write you a shot.

Starting point is 01:32:46 You can lose privileges, whatever. But yeah, you have 10 minutes. So it's a controlled movements. Yeah, and this is an announcement that we're hurting these cattle. We're getting everybody to go and you have to get everybody back from places. So the last move is they'll announce this. This is the last move. So if you're on the yard, you know, you better to get back for this one.

Starting point is 01:33:04 Yeah, because you're not out here anymore. It's not, uh, yeah. Listen, I'll tell you something that was funny. there was a guy that was a, he was a Cho. I want to say he was a, I don't know what I shouldn't say that. I don't know. I think he was. And this was at Coleman and it was almost positive.

Starting point is 01:33:25 I'm 90% sure he was Joe. He had nowhere to go, right? Like he was, I think he was going like to Florida. And at Florida at the time, they didn't give them halfway house. So in Florida, the halfway house is what. Now they make them do it. it. Now they have to give it to him. But they called him to R&D to leave and he doesn't show up. And they called him and called. They called him for hours. Finally, they closed. They do a total recall.

Starting point is 01:33:54 Everybody has to go back to the unit. And they found him hiding on the rec yard because he had nowhere to go. He's like, I want to stay here. When you release me, I have no money. You guys are basically, like, there's nobody even picking me up. You know, you guys are giving me a bus ticket, like to a place to the middle of Chicago where I have nowhere to stay. Like, I'm just coming back. And he, yeah, they had to drag him out, drive him to the bus thing, put him on a bus, go, you know, nowhere to go. Like that, that's a weird. They remind you a shawshank. Yeah, the guy in shawshank hangs himself because he just didn't know how to deal real life. It does, but at least he got on the bus. Like this guy wouldn't even leave the prison. You know, like it's, it's.

Starting point is 01:34:38 It's funny. I mean, it's sad, but it's funny. I guess it would be, I don't know if it's sad or funny because it's a show, but if it was, but I can imagine a regular guy who's been locked up for 10, 15 years and he has nowhere to go. And some of those guys, you know, 20, 30 years, like they, everybody's died, given up on them. You know, we talked about this beforehand. People give up on you. You know, they give up on you.

Starting point is 01:35:05 You get there. And like, like we had mentioned that, that. you really figure out, like you've got your group of 20 people that you're surrounded by on the street when you had money and you were a big shot. And you would have said, we're not got an amazing group of friends. I got, you know, all these people that love me, that I'm, we're good friends. We're good buddies. Call these guys at any time. They would show up and help me move.

Starting point is 01:35:27 They'd do anything. Help me change a tire. Pick me up. Like, these are good buddies. We always hang out. We go to barbecues. We're good friends. And then you go to prison and you realize that three of those guys.

Starting point is 01:35:38 were friends. If, and you're probably lucky if you get three. And out of those three, if they stick with you for the six years, where they still answer your phone call

Starting point is 01:35:47 at the end of the six years, and I mean friends, not family, but you're probably doing pretty good if two or three of those guys. Yeah, and not a lot of people had that. And that was one of the worst things

Starting point is 01:35:59 about seeing the Chomos too. These guys have bigger circles than anyone you know, everybody's supporting them. And you're like, it makes you hate your people even worse because you're like, oh,

Starting point is 01:36:08 This guy's, you know, a bunch of kids and all everybody is, he's got a bunch of friends. And, you know, people are writing them, sending them money. I'm here living like a scumbag. I got nothing. And this guy's doing that. I tell people all the time, it's like it really, going to jail makes you realize what would happen if you died. It makes you realize that. What would have happened if I would have died on that day instead of just gone to jail?

Starting point is 01:36:34 If I had died, same thing. I got removed. and some people moved on. Some people, you know, I know the ones that would have grieved and I know the ones like my ex-wife who would have, whatever, he's going now. Keep going. I've mentioned this before when people are talking about their wives. I've been like, well, you know, you're typically the only people,

Starting point is 01:36:55 and I'm not saying because I've, who called me? Somebody sent me a text or yelled at me for this. Typically. And actually, that's not true. because they saw a short. They didn't hear the whole thing, the person that Kate called me. And this is a horrible thing to say,

Starting point is 01:37:12 hopefully they don't want to see this because it actually applies to them, but they would be upset with me. But it's true is that the guys I knew, right, during the 13 years, the guys that went into prison, now if it was only a couple of years, maybe you have a 50, 50 chance

Starting point is 01:37:30 to your wife's going to stick around for a couple of years. Maybe she can hang. If she really was in love with you and cares about you, of kids, there's probably 50-50 chance she's going to hang around. But let's say you got 10 years. Unless you left, you went to prison and you've got $10 million real estate and you can keep her in the same lifestyle as when you went in, there's about a 99% chance she's leaving.

Starting point is 01:37:59 Like if you were the sole, you were the breadwinner and she had a little part-time job and now she has to go get a full-time job and raise a kid without you and you can't provide for her. She's got to go move into a two-bedroom and get help from her friends and like, you're done. The marriage is over. You're going to be going for a minimum of six to seven years. The relationship is one-sided now. There's nothing you can do. You're calling one time a day for 10 minutes and all you can do is say, can you look this up for me on the internet?

Starting point is 01:38:31 Can you mail me a book? can you tell so and so such It's a total one-sided relationship Maybe you can put your son on the phone And your wife, you read the email And you can say, why'd you get into a fight with the kid? Well, you can't do that. You have to do this.

Starting point is 01:38:44 So you're just a complainer. You're just give me, give me, give me. It's completely one-sided. So that ruins the relationship. The moment she doesn't answer a phone on a Friday night, the next day, you heard those guys on Saturday morning, Where were you?

Starting point is 01:38:58 Why didn't you answer the phone? That's horrible. So those relationships are done, but the only people that maintain their marriages were people that had $10, 20 million when they came into prison, were able to keep their wife in the lifestyle they were accustomed to, and those wives typically stayed. Other than that, those relationships were doomed. They were just over. They were done. And I had met a guy that had been to federal prison before when I first got locked up. This is funny.

Starting point is 01:39:32 I think I've told this story before. But you'll get this. What this guy did was I was being held in a private, like a geo or so like a private facility. And I was there with him. He was my celly. And every day he was getting a letter or two. And he'd open it up and he'd see. This is when you get photos sent in.

Starting point is 01:39:54 He'd see the photos and he'd go. And he'd tear him up and throw him away. And I mean, I'm sitting there in the. sell and he'd be like who's I go who'd you get a letter? Get a letter? What's going on? And you go, yeah, yeah, it's my ex-girlfriend. And I go, oh, wow, bro, she's beautiful. You're lucky. That's a, he goes, no, I said my ex-girlfriend. He'd be like, yeah, thanks. She was, she was very pretty. He'd tear him off and throw him away. And then he'd take the thing and he

Starting point is 01:40:16 throw it away. And I, and this went on, I was there for two weeks. He's getting at least one or two letters a day. And I went, or this chick is fucking, she is writing like every day. He's, yeah, I know, I know. I know. She's upset. And I was like, well, I was like, why? He said, said, well, we had been dating for about four years. He's, I've been in prison before. I did like five years before. Got out. He said, I actually was, had a regular job.

Starting point is 01:40:42 He said, and I was driving a vehicle with a buddy of mine. And I knew he was, we were driving drugs. He's like, I don't know why I wasn't really involved in the drug thing, but I did drive him. Because we got pulled over. The drugs are in my car. He said, we got in trouble. We both got indicted, whatever. he said and uh i played guilty and i'm getting three years and that was it like he had three years there

Starting point is 01:41:05 was something along those lines where he was getting like a mandatory maybe he had a gun in the car so i forget what it was but well i think it got five years he goes but i'm probably going to do about three four years and i was like uh he's like so i broke up with my girlfriend and i went why he said well he said you haven't really experienced this yet but you're going to notice that the guys that have the hardest times are the ones that are trying to relate maintain a relationship on the street He goes, and you'll see these guys on the phone, just their guts are getting ripped out every day. They're calling their wives, screaming, where are they? Where were you last night?

Starting point is 01:41:38 Why didn't you answer the phone? He said, I mean, it's agony. He said, I'm not going to go through that, because I'm not going to do that to myself. So I explained to her, I'm going to go to prison. I'll be out in three, about three and a half years. And if you're single, when I get out, we'll get back together. But if not, we won't. And in the meantime, I think you should find somebody else.

Starting point is 01:41:56 You're a beautiful girl. I don't want you to waste three and a half years waiting for me. I don't want you to come see me. Don't write me letters. He was, and she's, and he'd been locked up, like, a month or two. He's, he'd just gotten here waiting to go to another, going to his final prison. Like, he'd been sentenced. Like, he'd been locked up six months while he's waiting.

Starting point is 01:42:14 Like, this had been going on for months. He only been here a little bit. He was in a county jail before that or the Marshall's holdover. Like, she's still writing every day. He's like, yeah, she's really upset. And I was just like, I was like, bro, sounds like she's going to wait. He's, I know, it seems like that. He said, man, she's like, she's 22 or 21, whatever.

Starting point is 01:42:33 She's a pretty girl. She'll get over it. He's like, she's going to find somebody else. He said, I don't want to do that. He had a very, he was very pragmatic about the situation. Exactly. He may have been wrong. He may have been wrong, but he knew that he was like, even if she waited, he was

Starting point is 01:42:48 if she waited, it may even be worse. He goes, you know, I'd be laying in bed. I'd be one of these guys. He was just super, like, very matter of fact. Like, he knew. he'd been in before, he'd seen what had happened. He wasn't going to do that. He wasn't going to do it to her.

Starting point is 01:43:03 He wasn't going to do it to himself. And I always thought to myself like that. He probably was the most sane person that I met that was handling it probably the best way for him. Honestly, probably the best way for her, too. Oh, yeah. Yeah, and he just didn't want to roll the dice on that. Didn't want to roll dice on maybe she sticks around. Maybe she goes all the way through it.

Starting point is 01:43:25 Maybe she doesn't. But I've had that. and I know the piece that comes with, okay, that's over. There's nothing in the street to worry about. Now, when you have kids, there's always that part of it to worry about. But everything's out of your control. The sooner you get to that realization that this is out of your control, the better. Right.

Starting point is 01:43:43 And it is a stress reliever. And it lets you say, all right, now I'm going to improve myself, right? Which obviously you did. I'm going to read as many books as I can. I'm going to learn and try to do as many things to improve myself. And some people, it's crazy, but some people need jail. It's part of your story. You just, you embrace it and you say, hey, look, this was, I was a complete asshole before.

Starting point is 01:44:04 Yeah, I was a douchebag before. Like, I'd still be, listen, trust me, I'd still be, I'd still be a douchebag. If I could have maintained it, I would have maintained it. You know, like there was nothing changing me. Like when the cop showed up, I'm just going to another place. Like, I'm just kind of like the whole, I'm changing the formula. I'm getting, I'm getting indicted or I'm getting a charge. I'm on probation.

Starting point is 01:44:26 I'm just switching it up. continue the fraud. I get the cop show up to raid the offices like I take off. I commit more fraud. I know it's coming down. I go to another locate like at any point I could have stopped and said, let's go ahead and fix this now before it gets to be too insane. I just kept thinking, they'll never catch me.

Starting point is 01:44:47 They'll never catch me. By the time they do catch you, now you've dug such a fucking hole. But only a lunatic does that. Only a lunatic does that. Yeah. Well, and so you still think, you still think the same thing, right? You still think that you would do. I would have kept going and going.

Starting point is 01:45:04 Is that what you? Yeah, no, I mean, like, you think that you could easily be in that life if some things had changed. You're like, yeah, I loved being that. I loved committing fraud. Like, I've never, I've never lied about that. I daydream about it to this day, you know? If I didn't have a, if things, things, I got out and things went, and I expected things to be tough. things went so well for me.

Starting point is 01:45:28 But I used to say that if things tanked, that I would commit fraud again. Like if things got so bad where I'm riding the bus and I'm working a horrible job and I can't pay my rent and I'm just going, I'm barely hanging on. And it's like, you know, one bad paycheck and you're losing, you know, you're losing,

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Starting point is 01:47:02 to save a whopping 50% off site wide. Like, if I got to that point where it was just so bad, nothing was working, like, yeah, my go-to move would probably be, probably, I'm not going to lie. It would be fraud. Like I date, you know, listen, it's not so bad now,

Starting point is 01:47:16 because now I focus mocus mostly on YouTube and writing and things like that. now, but there were years, two, three years out of prison. I'm driving by a vacant house and I'm thinking, hmm, that'd be nice. That's a nice, it's a nice house. I noticed nobody's, nobody's living in that house. You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm, I'm laying in bed at night, you know, calculating, but, but luckily everything, you know, just being a, doing the right thing worked out, you know, and there's a, there's a certain amount of luck, things could have gone back, but I was very, same thing, pragmatic, very reasonable with my

Starting point is 01:47:57 expectations of life. It was very low. You realize in prison, like, I don't need much to be happy. Yeah. I was way happier. That's such a good thing. I wish that on a lot of people, that you could feel that feeling that what really matters to you. Because it goes back on what I was just saying. You feel like you died and you could go look back on that death and see who was there for you and who wasn't and it also let you just personally wise when everything's taken from you what is important

Starting point is 01:48:28 and you start to get an understanding of that and appreciation of those having an appreciation for the small things in life is really good now you can sound so silly right it's the same shit you bad said to you it's the same stuff that you shrug off your whole life

Starting point is 01:48:45 I've been like but the whole the whole money doesn't buy happiness and it's like the fuck out of here only Poor people say that. Like, listen, I had all the little things. I was like, yeah, whatever. And then you go to prison and you know what poor is and you know what having nothing is, not even your freedom.

Starting point is 01:49:01 You've got nothing. And you start to realize like some of my best moments were in prison. My happiest times were in prison. You start to realize that. And you're like, this is insane. I have nothing. And yet I'm so happy, so content. And you've seen that there are a lot of people with it worse.

Starting point is 01:49:19 And that's a great life lesson too. All these guys that, lifeers, I'm going to die right here in this bed, you know, and you know, hey, I've got a date. I'm going to get out of here. I am going to turn it around when you want it to be, this is going to be a part of your story, but it's not the whole story. Right. The ending hasn't been written yet and what's in the middle.

Starting point is 01:49:41 I always tell people it's like life's a lot like poker in that way. Poker's just such a great analogy for life. Sometimes you put all your chips in and you lose and, you know, you need. luck. You need some other things. There's a lot of things that have to happen. You go to the end of a poker tournament and talk to the person that won and they're telling you about 10 crazy hands and luck and good decisions luck and you have to stack that one after another. One bad move, you lose them all. But if you just continue playing great hands and doing the right thing, it's going to come along. Yeah. So it's crazy how you learn that, right? It's a good thing.

Starting point is 01:50:16 Yeah. It's a good thing to have. Yeah, I was going to say it's funny too because I know ever met one guy in prison that that when he was at his lowest missed his Maserati. Or nobody ever missed this. You never heard anybody say, man, bro, I fucking miss driving my Ferrari, bro. It was always like my kids, all the people and things that you, all the people you took it took for granted before is the thing that you miss at your lowest point in prison. and all those things that you thought were so important, you realize, like, I don't even think about that.

Starting point is 01:50:56 I don't even think about that car. I don't even think about that house. I've never once thought about going on a vacation or no one. I miss my, I miss my wife. I miss my kids. Those are the things that you, and yet they were so available when you're out there. You just didn't appreciate them.

Starting point is 01:51:09 So, I mean, I think it helps you reset your priorities. And if you're lucky, you stick with that. And if you're kind of a shit, then you probably lose that at some point. You probably everybody starts to lose it. You have to kind of read, I think you have to every once in one and give yourself a little talk and say, hey, get your fucking head out of your ass. You're in a good position. So what that guy cut you off?

Starting point is 01:51:31 You know, in traffic, you know, fuck. What's it going to cost me an extra 12 seconds? You know, 10 seconds, 30 seconds? I don't care. You know, I pull over. I'm driving a little too fast. I get a ticket. I'm lucky.

Starting point is 01:51:41 I'm driving it all. I'm happy to pay that ticket. Yes, sir, officer. I'm saying? Like, I mean, it's, you got to get your, you got to, I think everyone. once in a while I have to remind myself like you're lucky to be here. Yeah. And there's a great saying that I always try to remember to myself. And it's like if you let words bother you and stress you out, that is just the worst thing you can do and everybody will have control over you. Because if you allow

Starting point is 01:52:12 just words to do it, everybody can speak words. You will allow everybody to have control over you. and the sooner you can take a deep breath and let things pass. And having been through what we've been through, it's so much easier to do that, to take a deep breath, reset. And it's going to be real hard to get back to your low point. Things have to take a real crazy turn to get back to your low point. And the ability to get back to where you were and better to rewrite the ending.

Starting point is 01:52:41 You know, you have that now, you know? I mean, for me, you know, the goal is always for me is to get fuck you money. people always ask you when is it enough when is you had all this money millions this that when is it enough when i have fuck you money that's when it's enough right and and what is that you know like there's a there's a there's an article written about me uh they called me the donald trump of synthetic drugs right and uh which is crazy because like at the time he wasn't president he wasn't you know he was just he was an entrepreneur a rich guy and i followed him on twitter because guess what?

Starting point is 01:53:17 The guy has always had, fuck you money, has always been able to say whatever he wants to say, and that's the goal. When you have a private plane and some fuck you money, that's where it's at.

Starting point is 01:53:28 Now I may, in my life now, want to get there a different way, but that's the goal, right? So they write this story and they just assume because I follow him, Ron Paul, Rand Paul. Like, they assume

Starting point is 01:53:40 because I follow these guys that I'm a libertarian that doesn't give a shit about the laws, you know, And, you know, again, Donald Trump of synthetic drugs. So I'm, you know, I mean, Donald Trump's an entrepreneur. He's not a, that's crazy.

Starting point is 01:53:54 Before he was even president, these guys are trying to blast him and blast me for being a person that follows him. But there's something to be said for that. Is that not the goal? Right. Yeah, I mean, I mean, it'd be nice. It'd be nice. But when everybody says, when is enough enough, when will you say you've got there? I mean, that's it.

Starting point is 01:54:16 When I have. I was going to say, I don't. It's like someone who said, you ever hear these guys? Oh, if I won the lottery, I'd quit my job. I'd, I, I, well, whatever, if I won the lottery, I don't, I don't think if I had $20 million, I think that Colby would be here next Tuesday and we'd be doing a fucking, you know what I'm saying? Like, I like my life.

Starting point is 01:54:36 I don't think that money would, I'd have a car. Nicer car, nicer house. That's it. Still do the same thing every day. I've told, I told, my wife one time, like, I option, like, I optioned my life rights and she goes, what if they make a movie? Like, what if you make a bunch of money? What, what if, what if this happens? And I went, I don't think much would change. And she goes, you don't think so? I said, well, I said, I think we'd have a little bit nicer house. And I think

Starting point is 01:55:00 we'd have a little bit nicer cars. But I don't think anything would change because I'm doing everything I like right now. Right. I think you can change. Yeah, maybe maybe a little less interviews and just only pick the very best. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, like I mean, Probably would up our game a little bit. I'd have a little bit more time than maybe, what, scroll on TikTok? Like, what, what's going to change? I'm going to go on vacation an extra day. Like, honestly, if you go, if you go to the Keys, four days is enough.

Starting point is 01:55:35 You know what I'm saying? The truth is, it's like, oh, I'm going to go on two weeks. You've been on a two-week vacation? You better be traveling because you can't go to, well, no, Venice. You could probably go to Venice. There's a lot of museums of Venice. But I don't think, still two weeks is too much. You better be traveling.

Starting point is 01:55:52 You can only vacation so much before it gets to be a pain in the ass. And you're like, I just want to go home for six months or something. And even then, what are you going to do? If you don't have a job, what are you going to do? Sleep late? Catch up on my Netflix? Okay, there's two months. Now what?

Starting point is 01:56:10 Like, I think it'd be, now what? I got to start my YouTube channel over again. Yeah, but that's not. when I say like FU money, mine wouldn't be so that I can turn around and not do anything. The FU money is to go impose my will on the world. And I'll give you an example, right? I'll give you an example. Elon Musk sold his interest in PayPal.

Starting point is 01:56:34 He got, I don't know, somewhere near $200 million for this, right? You can go buy an island. You can go buy a couple million dollar island. You can, that's some FU money, right? Right. What did he do? He went and spent, you just bet on it. himself, that's what I mean. When I say F you money, that is, you go and pose my will on everything,

Starting point is 01:56:53 every way. It's, uh, what you're saying that I'm misunderstood. It's funny you use Elon Musk because I, I, I, like, am fascinated. Like I am too, I'm fascinated because I always think that I've, Pete and I, my buddy Pete and I have talked about this, um, where it's like if you, if you gave me 200 million I would probably do a lot of things but the one thing I probably wouldn't do is think how can I further humanity I'm saying like how can I we go to them how can we it's like like

Starting point is 01:57:29 you're you're on some next level shit and would you bet every penny of that can you imagine that have you seen the Netflix documentary about the space oh how close he came over and over again this guy is watching wrecks of rockets and this guy's got a set of balls on him.

Starting point is 01:57:45 He's all in. Oh, everything. Not just, not just that. Tesla was the same way. Every time he's gone into something, he's almost gone bankrupt, multiple time, borrowing multiple months. You're betting everything you've got, and it's been multiple times his bets have paid off.

Starting point is 01:58:00 But still, the same thing is, I'm going to start. And the stuff, the, the, the things that he's taking on are, it's insane. Who the fuck thinks? I'm going to build, I'm going to build an electric car. that nobody's building. I'm going to make it affordable. And yeah, but there's no way to generate. Well, then I'm going to build a series of areas

Starting point is 01:58:23 where you can regenerate or recharge the car. And are you out of your fucking mind, bro? None of that's going to happen. And then, no, I'm going to build rockets. And we're going to go to not to the moon, not to outer space and build maybe like a hotel that people can go and do kind of like a tourist thing. No, no, we're going to go all the way to Mars,

Starting point is 01:58:43 which is about 2,000% harder than going to the moon. And we're going to do that. And we're going to build a city of a million people because I think we need to do that just in case something goes wrong here on Earth. Like, you give me 200 million. And honestly, I'm probably going to do some stuff, but it's more entertainment-based for me.

Starting point is 01:59:03 I might build some stuff. I might do a little bit of stuff. But it's furthering humanity and saving the environment is not a part of my agenda. I'm buying Twitter because he feels like There's not enough free. There's too much censorship on buying Twitter. Like that's insane.

Starting point is 01:59:22 At a price higher than anyone else would. I don't care. But what's crazy, he has a story about that. They ask him, the guy tells him, hey, listen, I know why you're going to fail. And he says, well, really? Well, well, tell me. And the guy says, the reason you're going to fail with this Tesla deal, the reason you're going to fail is because all of these legacy automakers, they make almost 40, 50% of their money comes from selling the parts on the older vehicles.

Starting point is 01:59:49 That's where 40 to 50% of their revenue comes from, and you don't have any older vehicles to make that revenue from. So you're going to fail. You don't have, they've got a model that you can't repeat. And he said, oh, okay, well, watch this. And instead of doing what they did, he went and figured out a way to manufacture and increase that process, whereas margins were big enough to cover not having those. Right. And one of those was, I'm going to, I'm going to build a vehicle, and we're not going to spend 20% of the profit margin on advertising. Like, and how are people going to buy your vehicle? Well, we're just going to hope it's organic. We're not going to, we're not at it like are you out of your listen every that is as dumb of an idea as the guy that walked

Starting point is 02:00:37 into the first meeting and said 30 years ago and said listen let's bottle water everybody at that table had to go who the fuck let this guy in what are you talking about we're going to bottle water and we're going to sell it for more than soda who let him in Jennifer, did you let this fucking nuttrap? How many meetings did he have to go where he was laughed out of the meeting until somebody said, well, let's look at this again. Well, how was it? I don't, okay. Well, we could try it on a small scale, maybe.

Starting point is 02:01:14 And I don't know about you guys, but bottled water is tremendously fucking profitable. It's the dumbest fucking idea. And you know where most of the bottled water comes from. Now, they're taking it right out of the tap. They're filtering it and taking it out of the tap. and they're still selling it to me for $1.80. Are you out of your fucking mind? I mean, that's an idea that, like, it's the dumbest thing ever that turns into,

Starting point is 02:01:37 Elon Musk has had multiple stupid ideas, in my opinion, that have made billions of dollars. And I'm sure every time he pitched it, even when he talks about Tesla stock and people are like, what about Tesla stock? Like, you feel like it's a good value? He's like, it's really overpriced. honestly. I mean, you're like, several times. This is your company. Don't say that. What are you doing? And he's, he's like, yeah, I don't know why it's so high. I don't. It's, it's really over. Because if you do the cost analysis and you start breaking it down, you're like, what are you doing? I mean, he's, he's very honest about just everything involved. And it's, and it's part of that honesty is what's why so many people back him and love him.

Starting point is 02:02:21 Yeah. And that's the F you money we're talking about. I remember they were the boycotters. We're talking about boycotters. We're talking about boycotting. I'd love to have F. Then I'm on, okay, if that's what you're saying, I would love to have F you money. So they said, we're going to boycott Twitter. Remember that? They're going to boycott Twitter. He comes right out and says, if you think you're going to use money to manipulate me, fuck you.

Starting point is 02:02:40 Yeah. Says it right out to anybody who thinks they're, if you're not going to advertise on my platform, you got the wrong guy. What was the other thing? He used the Princess Bride analogy where... You were seeing the Princess Bride? I agree. Where he goes, yeah, he does the whole thing.

Starting point is 02:02:56 where he says, offer me money. Offer me. Like he starts telling that. He's about to, he's fighting the guy he's going to kill him. And the guy's begging and he's like, offer, like, beg. He said, beg, you offer me money. Offer me fame. Offer me.

Starting point is 02:03:09 He's like, offer me these things to spare your life. He's like, because it doesn't matter. But I'm dying for you to offer me these things. You got, he talked, Elon Musk does that. He goes, during a thing where they say, well, what do you think? And he goes, it makes me think of the princess bride, which is a kid's movie. And he's like, you know, he goes, when. And they say, when the guy says, offer me this, offer me, he's like, I don't care.

Starting point is 02:03:32 That's great. And even says, too, when he says, oh, yeah, like, they stop some big advertiser. And he's like, yeah, he's like, it'll probably bankrupt us. Yeah. He's like, but I'm not going to not do or follow what I think is right. So, yeah, we'll have bankrupt. Yeah, probably. You'll probably bankrupt this.

Starting point is 02:03:49 That's fine. And if you ever want to have a few money, if that's not your idol, if that's not who you want to be like, that's how you get there. You out-execute everybody else. That's what he's done on every level. He out-executed the United States. He out-executed us in the... We're paying for rockets.

Starting point is 02:04:09 He made him reusable. Made him for 10% of us. How about that, bro? That was, you know... How big is our budget? He out-executed the United States. I mean... Listen, when those things were coming down

Starting point is 02:04:20 and crashing one after another, after... And now, now when they do it, it's... It's just like, it's insane. The other thing was the boosters were supposed to get, I think, 10, he figured 10, you could get 10 uses. Some of these things have done like 22 times. Like they've gone up over and over. He's like, oh, he's like, there's no way this one's not going to, there's no way this one's going to land.

Starting point is 02:04:44 This is a 22nd time it's gone. Whatever that is. Whatever that number is. And they're outperforming, even what they were hoping was the best, was like, we were hoping to get 10 or 12 uses out of them. this one's been used 22 times. And there's still no landing and landing. Like they've got it down landing. And then you're using that to create another billion dollar company.

Starting point is 02:05:04 So now you go put the satellites up there. Now you have internet everywhere. You can be in the middle of the desert. You've got Starlinked to your phone. So you use SpaceX, your second billion dollar company, you know. And he's also got the boring company. He got the boring company. He's got the one with the, yeah, he's got all of that.

Starting point is 02:05:20 It's like everybody's like, you know, why are you, why a boring company? I mean, why would you, I don't understand how that, okay, well, if he does make it to Mars, the bulk of civilization is going to be underground for a long, long time. Will there be Glass Dome City someday? Sure, maybe we've seen Star Trek. Yeah, maybe in 200 years, but for the majority of them, are you going to have to bore, you know, through the ground? And he's, guess what, I happen to have a boring company, you know,

Starting point is 02:05:44 and if you're getting these, these rockets up there, and if you've ever watched, they said, like, the first, is it trillion? or something like that? Somebody I'd seen one of these where they were like the first trillionaire will be the person that figures out how to go to the asteroid belt, grab one of these asteroids.

Starting point is 02:06:07 And get the minerals in. And bring it back. And it doesn't take much. It's putting a couple of rockets, a couple of pushes to pull it out and you can pull it right into orbit around the moon or around, well, Mars or the moon or whatever

Starting point is 02:06:22 and just use it. Most of those asteroids, not most of them, but lots of those asteroids have as much raw material for metals on one of those asteroids as we do on all of Earth. So they can easily, whoever gets that, guess what? That just, you just, how rich are you now? Who knows what else you find there? Yeah, who knows. Something we don't know about something that's, oh, look, this thing does, it's 20 times stronger. Well, I tell you what, that happens?

Starting point is 02:06:51 you don't want to be having a ton of your money and precious metals, that's for sure. They're going to dump all that stock immediately. But yeah, I'm fascinated. I watch tons of stuff on colonizing Mars. I watch it all the time. My wife laughs about it. I am a nerd as well. I'm a nerd with anything to do with Elon.

Starting point is 02:07:10 I'm just fascinated with people who have outdone other people, you know, who you have a ton of people trying to do what he's done. He's done it better than everyone else. I mean, you, car companies were some of the biggest companies in the country, and he came in and competed in a space that was really crazy. What about, I wonder about these Tesla bots. Like initially when they come out, it's like anything. When you first come out, like they're not great.

Starting point is 02:07:36 But in five years from now, they're going to be fucking 10 years from now, those things are going to be amazing. The first generation or two is never the best. You have to work out the kinks. But Jesus, those things in five years. years after they first hit the market, they're going to be, they're going to be 10. 10, it's going to be fun of it. They're going to be knocking on your door trying to sell you aluminum siting or something or, you know, solar panels or you're going to be like,

Starting point is 02:08:03 it's going to be like a normal human being. Yeah. It's going to, they're going to be insane. That would be crazy. You walk into a factory and it's all robots, but not in the traditional sense of a big arm robot. It's sexual walking around robots and they don't need a lunch break. They don't need. No. Imagine you're saying what? They're going to be what, 30, 40, thousand dollars so i can pay a human 70,000 a year to do this job or i can just buy two of these robots that work 24 hours a day that's going to be a problem you know that's going to be yes but once again you're going to he's going to and he's already said oh the robot thing will be it'll be a much bigger moneymaker than anything else i've got going yeah and can you imagine that

Starting point is 02:08:43 that's that's that's what i mean by saying i want to i want to get on that stuff now i you know I'm fascinated with that in a way that I never did. You know, I'm from a small town and nothing changes there, right? I've told you that. Nothing changes there. And you get low- You said they built three more buildings. Yeah, you know, new Starbucks is the excitement of the town, right?

Starting point is 02:09:04 And when you don't get away much, you don't realize what's happening in the rest of the world. And the rest of the world, crazy things are happening, you know? You go to Las Vegas. You go back two years later and there's crazy stuff there, you know? the rest of the world is is doing these crazy things and unless you get out a little bit and see what everybody's doing it gives you that you know for me it gives you that thirst to get out and do more you know that's kind of what I thought I was doing I was scouting locations in Ohio I was

Starting point is 02:09:36 going to move this chain to like you know I was going to go to 50 stores really really quick you know Uncle Sam put a stop to that uncle Sam put a stop to that one but uh you know you know that's why you know nowadays i i wouldn't go back to the same thing i uh you know i've got got five kids that's crazy i can't go i can't five kids i can't be doing anything's going to bring me to jail you know i've got a little four-year-old so it's crazy me and uh and and katy so we've got a a four-year-old daughter so i actually have a grandson that's one year one years old right and uh it's crazy we went on a little vacation and come back and oopsie you know so i have all my kids are in their 20s, I have three kids that can drink, you know, and now a four-year-old, you know,

Starting point is 02:10:23 oopsie comes along, but it, you know, having a kid later in life that's young like that, it, it keeps you young. But after all that I've been through, I've, you know, I'm in a place now where I would never do something for a living that I can't bring my kids to, you know. I mean, I was always in the gray area, but even smoke shop-ish, I just, there's so much out there. And you learn this. Like you were a person that went and read a bunch of books and you learn about the world and you say, I don't have to do that anymore, you know, I don't have to do something that's in a gray area. I don't have to do something that I can't bring my kids to work. Now I'm not doing anything that I can't bring them and show them and, you know, that I can't be proud of, you know, in that way.

Starting point is 02:11:06 So, you know, learning, you learn about the world too, going to, going to prison because you meet people from everywhere doing everything stuff you can't even think of you know how long you've been out how long when did you get out i got out in may of 2018 so i did my uh i did my three years on post release i immediately knew i wanted to go to a business friendly state with no tax i went to dallas in tampa went you know i was going to go to one of those two places uh i went to dallas and there was an ice storm the worst ice storm they've ever seen in a hundred years the the the week i was there And then I came to Tampa and had beautiful trip. Last day was Anna Maria Island, fantastic.

Starting point is 02:11:48 And I said, this is where I want to be. So I moved to, you know, because now when you're off the post-release supervision, that's it. No babysitter. Now it's time to go hard. Now it's no babysitter. It's go time. You know, I came down here. I was doing a CBD business at the time.

Starting point is 02:12:08 I was making these honey sticks and these other products. went to a trade show and this guy was selling a freeze-dried ice cream sandwiches. And I was buying them and people were buying them like crazy. It was doing great, you know, and it was dropped with CBD on them, you know. So they were selling like crazy. And so I originally got the first machine to try to replicate and fill the orders he couldn't fill. At the time, I didn't realize why he couldn't do it, but one run takes you an entire day to do in this freeze-dry machine. It looks just like your dryer, you know.

Starting point is 02:12:39 Okay. And you load in trays of food in there, and it takes all the water content out. So an ice cream sandwich turns into like a styrofoam brick-looking shape, but you could leave it out. You can seal it in place. As long as you don't let it get exposed to oxygen, you can leave that out for 10 years and still eat it, you know, room temperature. So that's what they do with space food.

Starting point is 02:12:58 So that's why freeze-dry products have become so popular because the shelf life is amazing. You know, you get something that's chocolate, you've got to move it, nonstop, the shelf like, the heat, you know, and different things. So that's, you know, I was supplementing that. I got my first machine to sort of do that. And then I started me being me testing everything, you know, having everybody try all this different stuff. People were trying skittles, lemonheads, all these different products and loving them.

Starting point is 02:13:24 Like, oh, this is fantastic, you know. So I knew that was it. Like I said, you got to find the thing. That's all I've been looking for. Find the new thing. Something that interests me, but yet is that I know is it. So I was onto it before anybody else. fuel on the fire, you know, poor fuel on the fire on that. And, uh, you know, I went from, you know,

Starting point is 02:13:43 a little 1,200 square foot building to, you know, three, uh, decent size buildings. Uh, you know, I've, I've sold products to thousands of stores, probably in about 4,500 stores. And, uh, making my own candy now, doing, uh, doing, uh, some pretty crazy stuff, you know, trying to get innovative and do, you know, expand that. And, uh, and, uh, you know, expand that. And, uh, you know, when you get out and you have nothing and you're starting over from scratch again, you just need that one little start. And some people go back to something crazy because they can't get that, you know, that once everybody always tells yourself that, right? Like, I just need that like 100,000 to start up with something, you know? So, you know, now that I've got into this, I poured fuel

Starting point is 02:14:29 on the fire of that and doing really good with it. So, hey, thank you very much for watching the video. Do me a favor. Hit the subscribe button, hit the bell so you get notified a video. It's like. also please consider joining our Patreon. It's $10 a month and it really does help Colby and I make videos like this. We'll leave all of Bliss Life's links in the description box so you can go in there and click on that and check it out. And maybe in the future we may be doing some ads for freeze dried candy. Bliss Life free dried candy. Bliss Life free dried candy. That's a tongue twister. Thank you very much. I really appreciate you guys watching. Please consider sharing the video to friends and family. See ya.

Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - How the FBI Took Down the So-Called “King of Synthetics”

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