Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - Insane Famous Cold Cases (Flint River Killer, Escape From Alcatraz, & More)

Episode Date: September 21, 2023

Insane Famous Cold Cases (Flint River Killer, Escape From Alcatraz, & More)

And they start talking about we're going to escape. And he's like, look, I was a scuba diver in the Navy. Y'all don't set a chance with these tides. They're too rough. The water's too cold. And at Alcatraz, the one benefit they were given was hot showers. Other prisons, you might have to take a cold shower, but not Alcatraz, because they didn't want them to get acclimated to cold water. So he's sitting there telling them, look, if you do this, you're going to have to leave on this side of the island at this time of day when the tide is in this.

predicament because it'll actually push you toward Angel Island and that's going to be your best benefit. So listen, Matt, it's the only case in history that I can find where a serial killer becomes a true victim of crime and then he reaches out to law enforcement for help because the detective that originally arrested him for his murders, he asked when she was still missing, can you find her? He said, you caught me after 25 years. Can you find my daughter? What? Exactly. You couldn't even come up with it. Like this sounds so insane that it's almost fake. We're at lunch one day and he looks at me and he says, hey, do you mind if I give your kids some advice? And I said, of course not. You know, please. So he looks at my daughter who's 10 and he says,

Never. Hey, this is Matt Cox, and I am here with Cheryl McCollum. She goes by Mack. She's in law enforcement. She was on CSI Atlanta. She is involved in cold cases. And we're going to talk about some cold cases and just some, and basically her background. So check out the interview.

Where were you born? I was born in Atlanta. Georgia, grew up in Fulton County my entire life, even went to college in downtown Atlanta at Georgia State, still work in Fulton County. So I'm right here, native. And how did you, so what got you interested in law enforcement? Wait a minute. Was it your mom? Yes. Okay. No, but no doubt. She, my mother could tell a story that would just stop you dead in your tracks. And she was a tremendous gifted storyteller. And she knew a ton of history. She was a history teacher. So she would craft it in a way that you would just be on the

edge of your seat. Well, we used to take long car trips. And when you would get outside Atlanta, about an hour and a half, the radio wouldn't work any longer. Well, she had five girls to entertain. So she would usually start somewhere like, you know what this road reminds me of? Well, then we would know, here it comes. And the first story that I remember being captivated by was Bonnie and Clyde. And it just went from there. And so then she would tell us stories about John Dillinger and Al Capone and Babyface Nelson. And it just never stopped being interesting to me. So from the age of four, own, you know, it was always, what can I learn about? What can I read about?

Who can I go meet? What can I go see? And when they were, when I was eight, they took me to see the death car. And then when I was 12, they took me to Alcatraz. So it just never left me. Yeah, what did Bonnie and Clyde? Was it 18 months or something? They're 16 months.

They're crying. You know, it seems like it was, you know, if you hear all the stories and you think, Oh, pretty much years and years, but it wasn't that long. It was not that long. Nope. I was wonder. I wonder what the real story is, you know, because there were, there are like those reports and the documentaries that talk about how, gosh, was it, who was the FBI director then, Hoover, right? Like he was, you know, kind of trying to manipulate the press, you know, what was happening.

what wasn't happening and then it was like okay they were gunning down the officers or wait maybe the officers shot at them first or you know like i don't know but it's kind of like i i said earlier before we even started about that the con man guy that i watched that movie about it was a it was a movie that was based on true events but it was a real story and i talked to the the guy that wrote wrote the story and did all the uh investigating and the guys on the fbi's most wonderless like yeah he was he was a kind of a he was kind of a con it was very much he was a con man he was always running a little scams and things and then suddenly he ended up just out of the blue he just he robbed a courier and he shot and killed him and it was so senseless that it just didn't

it made no sense at all it was out totally out of character so right you just never know like you think like Bonnie and Clyde like they're robbing banks but they don't really want to hurt anybody But then again, that doesn't mean that they weren't necessarily also killing people. Maybe they did. Maybe they, who knows. Right. Well, I'll tell you, I need to introduce you to Raylene, Linder, and Buddy Barra. They are family members of Bonnie and Clyde.

And they can tell you firsthand what they know. Raylene knew everybody involved. And their story is, I don't even know how to tell you how captivate me. And it's a good, you know, again, to me, if you look at the history of crime, you can see the history of America. And when you talk about somebody like J. Edgar Hoover, he was a marketer. He was brilliant. When he came up with, you know, the most wanted, you know, public enemy number one,

that's genius. Because now you've got everybody bawled in to get in this person. So if, in fact, you know, John Dillinger's gunned down on the street, you've already told everybody he's the most violent person there is so nobody questions anything about it you know so i mean to me he did a unbelievable job in that regard but there's always two sides so i think you know if you got a chance to talk to ray lane you would just adore her right i i mean there's just there's so many underhanded things that you know hoover was involved in that um was it there was there were these there was a Nazi plot where they dropped off these saboteurs and one of the one of the Germans

went straight to the FBI and said hey listen this is what's going on like I we landed there's like six six of us we're supposed to blow this stuff up I don't want to be involved and they go and they arrest all of them including the guy that went to them and they they try them and they give them they all get like the electric chair and just before the one of the the main guy that had gone and turned them in and keep in mind they didn't even want to believe him he had to show up with a bunch of counterfeit money he pulled out like like 30,000 dollars in counterfeit U.S. bills and said look they gave us this money to use it's counterfeit they were like what the hell so that was that made them think oh this has got to be real yeah it turns out like the president commuted the guy's

sentence the life. But Hoover had pitched it as, we discovered this plot. We arrested these guys. And then it ends up getting these guys the death penalty and never says this guy came forward. He was the reason. And he's ready to execute him too. What a great way to keep him quiet. Yeah. There's so many little underhanded things like that about Hoover that. So it's, I don't know, is the same thing with like the Bonnie and Clyde thing like where they

you know they definitely they definitely murdered some people but I wonder how it came about and they definitely robbed some banks but did they rob

all the ones that they were you know pinned for right I mean there was no better time basically to rob your own bank

and blame it on them right right I would or or how much was you know how much was actually taken you know

exactly they got $500 all you know, but they got $200. Right. Right. So the Alcatraz thing, we had talked about the Alcatraz that you had met one of the guys that was an Alcatraz a bank robber? Yes, Robert Chavon, inmate 1355, honey. Why did you? So how did you get connected with him? I got connected because, again, I'm a history buff when it comes to crime.

And, you know, sometimes a story will just resonate. with me. Well, the way he robbed banks, his getaway vehicle was the USS Franklin Delano Roosevelt, greatest getaway vehicle ever. It's got to be. I mean, that beats a Model T, that beats an airplane. I mean, come on, right? Right. So the way he would, you know, commit these crimes, he would stash civilian clothes in a locker at the bus station when they dot the first time, when they came. Because he was in the Navy. Because he was in the Navy. So when they came around the second time, he would go to the bus station, change out of his uniform into civilian clothes, walk down the street, robbed the bank, walk back, change back into his uniform, and literally walk back on the ship. Well, anybody walking in downtown San Francisco or wherever he was, they're not going to look at a naval man twice.

So even if they've gotten some alarm call, they're not going to look at him. And that's not how, you know, the witnesses are going to say he was dressed anyway. and by the time they're really investigating the case that literally that ship has sailed and he's in another fort and it was just such a brilliant yet elementary type scam that I thought

I got to meet this guy and then from our first meeting we just became friends and I mean he was funny he was smart he would openly tell you different things and he put a lot of things in perspective. And the first time I got to meet him in person, I got up on the porch. I knocked on the door. And he's in the back of the house and says, you know, come on in. And so I was

joking with him that, you know, hey, you know, you're not real security conscious, you know, being funny. And he went, listen, the minute I walked out of Alcatraz, I told myself, I will never be behind a locked door again. And I thought, you know what? I get it. I love that. So, you know, you learn from anybody. So I can learn from a fantastic police commissioner, and I can learn from an ex-criminal. They all have an expertise to share that you can use for the greater good. And he's just one of those people that I just connected with on a lot of levels.

And he was a family person. He was super devoted to his family. and in a full circle moment, again, when I was 12, my parents took me at Alcatraz, then I befriended Robert, and then his daughter invited me to participate in his memorial service, own Alcatraz, which was an experience, oh my gosh, I mean, I can't even tell you. It was just, it was overwhelming to see the devotion of his daughter and then the respect from the Rangers. I mean, it was really unbelievable. And we had Michael Eslinger, who's an expert in Alcatraz.

He's written tons of books. I mean, he was basically our private guide along with the rangers. So we got to go places the general public didn't, you know, doesn't ever get to go. So it was awesome. And you were saying that his daughter, like, released his ashes underneath the cell? Under his cell window. Yes. So he wanted her to, you know, stand there literally under his, you know, prison cell and, you know, release his ashes so he could get off that island one more time.

And if you knew him, I mean, that's part of his humor. And it's also part of, you know, for him, it was just this, I'm going to be free. And it was more of that than, you know, anything. So it was just, it was touching. It was interesting for historical people. purposes. Again, you know, if you look at America, you can track America through crime. I mean, the American mafia, you can take it all the way through, you know, the way people rob banks, the way, you know, shootings happen, the way murders happen, especially some of the, you know,

big-time famous things that we all know. But Alcatraz is pinnacle to me. when you know when you mention him like dressing up and it's funny because he it's kind of like the the opposite of the Thomas Crown affair you know where he actually gets into a uniform that everybody sees that everybody recognizes but it's certainly not what the police have been told to look for exactly so I actually I was locked up with a guy named Anthony Curcio who had robbed a and done a lot of research like really kind of figure this out he you know of course he watched the the Wells Fargo truck show up at a Bank of America off the money he knew somebody that was that actually worked there that he you know never you know wouldn't

wouldn't you know they knew something was wrong because it was a drop of like 350,000 or $290,000. It was an excessive amount of money for those types of drops. And he watched him, knew the schedule. He had an outfit, right? He had the face mask. I mean, sorry, you know, the guys that go around and they pick up trash. So he had a face mask, a little dust mask. He had an orange, you know, the little reflecting thing that you wear. The vest, uh-huh. The vest. He had a He had the little, we call them Cadillacs in prison, the long thing, so you don't have to bend over, so you pick up the, and the little scooper thing, you put it in. And blue jeans and a white shirt, that was his kind of, he would dress up like that and wander around while he watched the schedule of when these guys would come and go. And then he would take his stuff and roll it up and stick it in the bushes and then leave and then come back and keep watching him.

So he knew the schedule of the deliveries. and he went out and he got bear mace and he actually sprayed himself with the bear mace to see you know it's like it's mace you know just to see if you know how bad is this going to decapacitate this person this guy because he said I didn't want to use a gun

I didn't want to hurt him and I didn't want to be charged with the gun if something went wrong I didn't want them to say hey use the you had a gun using forgeries and bogus identities Matthew B. Cox, one of the most ingenious con men in history, built America's biggest banks out of millions. Despite numerous encounters with bank security, state, and federal authorities, Cox narrowly, and quite luckily, avoided capture for years. Eventually, he topped the U.S. Secret Service's most wanted list and led the U.S. Marshals, FBI, and Secret Service on a three-year chase, while jet-setting around the world with his attractive female accomplices.

Cox has been declared one of the most prolific mortgage fraud con artists of all time by CNBC's American Greene. Bloomberg Business Week called him the mortgage industry's worst nightmare, while Dateline NBC described Cox as a gifted forger and silver-tongued liar. Playboy magazine proclaimed his scam was real estate fraud. and he was the best. Shark in the housing pool is Cox's exhilarating first-person account of his Stranger Than Fiction Story, available now on Amazon and Audible. And then this is where he, this is where it just became like, okay, all of that's like,

okay, and then, have you ever heard this story? No. Okay, and then he put an ad in Craigslist for the cleanup. Seattle Foundation and he was they were paying $22 an hour for full-time employment and it started on whatever it was Monday and 20 something people applied he sent them all a list saying that's fine you have to show up at five of them showed up at one one area five showed up and another five showed up in another five at another and he said you have to show up with your Cadillac with your your vest he sent them a link on where they could buy it with the face mask

everything wear blue jeans and a long sleeve shirt and he said that's basically your outfit so you have to buy the stuff first show up there that day at this time at you know be there between nine and nine 30 because that's when the truck arrived and he went he showed up too. Wow. So he said guys are walking around. They're like, man, what should we do? He said some of the guys are actually walking like a block away picking up trash already. Like they're already picking up trash. And they were told start working. Your supervisor will be there between 9 and 930. He said, I just did the same thing. I just kind of hung out near the parking lot. And then I saw the truck. Yeah, I saw the truck. And he said, as soon as I saw the truck,

and the guy, he said, it was like three quick steps from the alleyway, boom, boom, boom, hit him with the mace the guy dropped the bag screamed he grabbed the bag and took off running he ran through a wooded area and he had an inner tube in a canal and he said i just grabbed the inner tube jumped on the intercube and the inner tube took him down he said just collided because in seattle there's like they're kind of like little islands they have like the road closed off he said they immediately closed the bridges so they closed the bridges so nothing but police could come in. He said he jumped out, jumped off the inner tube, ran up the street to a title company, because he also was a real estate agent, walked in the front door. He said,

I stripped off everything, walked in the front door. And she said, I mean, he goes, listen, as soon as I walked in, I was standing there and said, hey, I need a copy of my closing statement from last week or from two weeks ago or whatever. They were like, oh, okay. And he said, do you hear that? And they were like what and all he said just then you started to hear the who he goes this sirens or something wonder what happened and they were like yeah i don't know if they were like oh yeah i do i hear it's just he said so i knew if i ever needed an alibi i could say i was in that thing when i heard this siren oh that's brilliant didn't live too too far from the place anyway so yeah they they searched for them and searched for him and he's one of those guys that whenever people talk to

to me and say, you know, do you ever think about doing anything again? I'm like, I'm like, yeah, and they're like, well, what would be the perfect crime? I'm like, well, I can think of lots of perfect crimes. They're like, well, then why don't you do something? I'm like, because I can't think of the fly in the ointment. That's what gets you messed up. Got you. Yep. Plan out some great, great crimes where you've never seen me. I haven't done anything. I was nowhere near it. You've got drop phones and you're using different computers and you know you never have to go in the place you never have to do anything but I'm saying you there's just there's always that thing you cannot think of and in his case when he took off running he'd never been arrested he took his

mask and he threw his mask down he said I didn't mean to I was just running he said I thought I had kept it with me and it just fell out but I was running so fast I didn't I didn't he's like the thing is nobody was chasing him you know but he was gone like i mean literally before the phone call really went out he was already on the inner tube so he dropped his mask he said no big deal they got my DNA doesn't matter i've never been arrested and that mask could have come from any place anywhere wasn't too worried about it um and he said so you know they got they've got nothing well the FBI came and they reviewed they talked to everybody and keep in mind the police show up they start

arresting these guys walking around with the they're handcuffing all these guys there's 20 of them walking around what's going on hey get on the ground well yeah so you know but not him they got a lot of suspects so he he said what what ended up happening in that case was the FBI they talked to everybody and they were looking through all the reports that came in because people start calling in it might be my neighbor might be this person I think I talked to my buddy Joe down in the bar he said this he said they went through it all nothing he said they went through it a second time when they came up empty and they saw a report of a guy a homeless guy had walked up to a city worker who was working on like the sewer system and said i know who robbed that bank and they're like the guy said what and he said

the guy was yelling and screaming he had a little dog he said he sounded crazy i said man all right right get out of here he was with the guy he was i did he did make a report The sewer, I mean, the guy working on this for the city made a little report. Hey, this guy came up to me, said he knows, said he knows it, but didn't want to talk to the police or something along those lines. Okay, he goes, well, let's go try and find that guy. He said, they grabbed a bunch of hamburgers. They went down where the homeless are in Seattle and said, hey, do you guys know somebody with a little dog and a beard? They said, oh, you're talking about Bobby.

Bobby lives in a bus in the woods. They go there, they pull up. They're walking towards the bus. Bobby walks out and says, man, I've been waiting weeks for you guys to, or sorry, months for you guys. to show up. Is this about the bank robbery? And they said, yeah, do you know who the guy is? He's like, well, I don't know his name, but I got a license tag. Oh, my God. He had come. He said, oh, yeah, he came like every other day. Right. He watched the thing. And he would roll up his clothes and his mask. And I got his tag number.

Because Anthony never even thought about the guy that was constantly walking around and lived in the woods. it's what you said the fly in the ointment how can you account for that right and that's my problem I'm like look you plan out this perfect crime and you did something you simply cannot account for and you end up and have you have to do 20 years so you think look I'm brilliant I'm smart I did everything correctly you can do everything correctly one person somebody else makes a mistake or somebody else happens to see something something you couldn't account for yeah My whole thing came unglued my scam because a girl I was working with went into the title company with an ID that had her picture on it, signed for a mortgage, and the person that the closing agent, the title agent, looked at her ID and said, this doesn't look like you. And she said, what do you mean?

That's me. Now, something's not. Something's off. This isn't you. another title agent came in looked at the picture and said that's her and she says no something's wrong this i don't think this is you i'm going to make some phone calls i'll let you know took a good picture of her took a good put it on there blew it up made a good picture the idea gave her ID back she left how am i supposed to account for the fact that that title person was wrong right she made a mistake

that unraveled my whole thing. So, anyway, it's, you know, like we were talking about the, on Alcatraz about the guys that had escaped. And you had said that the bank robber, I forget his name. Robert. Robert. You said Robert had actually known them, sat down at the table with them. Yes.

So they were assigned to the same dinner table. So there's Frank Morris and the Anglin, brothers, they're all there with him, and they start talking about, we're going to escape. And he's like, look, I was a scuba diver in the Navy. Y'all don't set a chance with these tides. They're too rough. The water's too cold. And at Alcatraz, the one benefit they were given was hot showers. Other prisons, you might have to take a cold shower, but not Alcatraz, because they didn't want them to get acclimated to cold water. So he's sitting there telling them, look, if you do this, you're going to have to leave on this side of the island at this time of day

when the tide is in this, you know, predicament, because it'll actually push you toward Angel Island, and that's going to be your best benefit. So what Robert did, part of his job was to go down to the lower end where they have one little guard shack right near the water, and he emptied the trash can. Well, the guard there was not supposed to bring in a newspaper. That was against the rules, but he did, and he would throw it away in that garbage can. Well, the San Francisco Chronicle published Tide Tables, so Robert would memorize them real quick, go back to his cell, write some things down, so that he got the rhythm and the pattern so that he could best tell them, this is what you're going to need to do, you're going to try to leave during this time. This is your best shot.

So he was instrumental in helping them understand the best way to go about it, which was crazy to me, because again, as a, you know, eight-year-old and then a 12-year-old and then now thinking, I've actually talked to somebody, I've befriended somebody that had some small part into this escape. It was just, it was awesome for me, I mean, not just as a criminologist, but just anybody. I mean, that's a fascinating story, you know. and then he told me that the birdman of Alcatraz was involved as well, that he taught them Spanish because their goal was to get to South America and they wanted to blend in as best they could and knowing the language would only help that. So, I mean, he was just an incredible person. He, a wealth of knowledge.

He was funny. You know, he was open. You know, we had a great friendship. Do you think that they made it? What do you think? You know, the 12-year-old me, yes, I think they made it. Sometimes when I'm driving in my car and, you know, I start thinking about it. I'm like, yeah, you know, if they had it planned out like I believe they did and, you know, maybe a boat picked them up.

Because there's rumors that a lot of the fishing vessels would, you know, toss out liquor and other things to get caught in the rocks for the inmates to find. And so, you know, part of me wants to believe that that's why the raft was discarded because they were pulled up onto a vote. Logically, is the water too cold and too rough and too shark infested? Yeah. I mean, most likely. But then you're like, hey, but the family got that one Christmas card, and the expert said, yes, the writing matched. And then you had the photograph, and again, the experts said that, yeah, that looks like them.

So, you know, there's some evidence that they did make it. There's some evidence, obviously, that they didn't. You made a great point when you and I were talking privately that it's very difficult for career criminals, even if they make it to South America, to never have another issue, to never commit another crime, especially if you get there and you have no money. Right. So they would have had to do something. So did they have plastic surgery? Did they go straight? I don't know, if they, in fact, made it.

Can you imagine my surgery back then? Oh, sure. Sure. I know it was rough, though. Oh, it would be rough and it would be horrible, but you wouldn't look the same. So I guess that would be the purpose. Yeah, very, very, I'd say unlikely that they went straight. But, you know, who knows?

Or who knows, like we were saying earlier, like, you know, who knows with identification, Like, they could have been arrested three states over for bank rob for robin five banks had just given them a different name. It's not like there was an aphist. They were going to pull up their fingerprints. I mean, they could print them, but the likelihood that they were going to compare them to these guys and they were going, you know. So especially back then, if you had any kind of history, if your identity wasn't in question, then they really didn't question. Like, if they lived in the county for two years or assumed someone's name or something, or they may have just been like, oh, yeah. So you live in New York.

here two years ago. He robbed three banks. Yeah, throw them in jail. He does five years and gets out. Who knows? You know, Robert Chablind told me that his goal, when he was still in Alcatraz, before he was released, he wanted the prints on the bottom of his toes to be put on his fingers. I don't know how that would work, but... Well, I mean, he had a doctor supposedly said that, yeah, he could take the top and then, you know, put them on, and then his fingerprints will be completely different. And you had other people, you know, using acid. sit or whatnot to burn them off and get rid of them. And Robert's idea was to replace them, which he thought was a smarter idea. But, you know, when he got released, he went straight.

He opened up a dive shop and went back to what he had been trained to do in the Navy and was a scuba diver and taught scuba diving lessons the rest of his adult life. I guess if you're smart and you kind of get your head right when you're locked up, you can, you start to realize that you can live on very little, you know, like you, you really don't need. Like, I mean, I, when I left the halfway house, and I stayed in the halfway house the whole time, didn't even try and go home, didn't not even, I'm staying here. Everybody complained, they take 20% of your, like, listen, do the math. You can't live anywhere else this cheap. You know, I just sat there, did the numbers one time. I said, oh, I'm staying here the whole time. And they're feeding me. So,

Stayed there the whole time, got out, went and rented some, rented a room from somebody, you know, cheap. Going cheap. Yep. I mean, I was still thrilled, I had, you know, I had a, I had a, I had this little thing, this little magic thing here that I could watch YouTube for free. I mean, like, there were so much stuff for free. For free. And I could, you know, I, I, all I have to do is kind of go back. And if somebody cuts me off in my car and for an instant, you know, you get angry.

and I think, I got time. Like, it's fine. Yeah. You sound a lot like Robert. Robert's like, I'm never locking a door again. Like, you can't upset me. You know, he was so funny. He was like, look, I got a jug of vodka over there.

I've got a TV. I've got a car. I can go do whatever I want to do when I want to do it. He said, I'll never be behind a locked door again. Life is good. Yeah. You know? I say that all the time.

I'm like, people don't realize how good it is out here. they have no idea. Right. But, you know, like, like I said, the recidivism is high, but that's because, you know, I think a lot of guys get out and they, they do well for the guys that intend to. There are other guys that I know guys that were, as soon as they got out, they were ready to commit crime. They were, that was just their life, you know, like, I'm going to be in and out of prison and, you know, I'm going to try and stay out, but I'm not getting a job at Walmart. Like, they're just like, I'm not doing it. Oh, sure.

So, but then there were other guys that I think they get out. and I think a couple years go by and they get frustrated and they can't buy the things they want and they lose side of the fact of how horrible prison you know is and really it's not horrible it's just it's just so isolating you have so little and and you get out here and there's such an abundance of everything that you start to think you deserve everything you get and start feeling entitled you get frustrated and their go-to move is crime yeah did you ever know frank colato from the whole and the wall gang.

He was a mafia hitman. That sounds really familiar. He's depicted in the movie Casino. No, but it's funny. I've interviewed a guy that knew like the guys that were in the movie Casino. Well, Frank and I were, you know, buddies too. And one time we were at lunch.

I'm sorry. Are these guys that you've met because of your podcast? No, these are people that I've met because of my job. Oh, okay. So I might be investigating a case or something, and I feel like you're going to have information that I need. And then they just turn out to be incredible people and are, you know, interesting. And, you know, they're, they are who they are, right?

Right. But, I mean, everybody has more than one side to them. But anyway, we're at lunch one day and he looks at me and he says, hey, do you mind if I give your kids some advice? And I said, of course not. You know, please. So he looks at my daughter who's 10. And he says, never trust a man ever. So I thought that's pretty good.

You know, we'll talk about it a little bit more later. But, you know, men can come at you with ulterior motives. So between now and, you know, 25, just keep that in mind. So then he looked right at my son and he said, and this goes to what you were talking about just a minute ago. He looks at him and he says, read me. never got me paid. So my son, of course, took that to mean, I'm never doing homework again.

It's a waste of time. But what he was trying to say was the education piece was never going to garner him the money that crime would. And so to your point, when you're talking about somebody that gets released and they're frustrated, McDonald's is never going to give them the money that they want. That's never going to get you a Lamborghini.

That's never going to get you a penthouse. It's never going to get you the Rolex. It's not. Right. And so your mindset has to change. And that's the biggest thing that I've seen. I mean, Robert, his mindset changed. His thing was, I can walk out in my backyard.

And nobody's going to tell me I can't go out there. I can get in a car and drive. So for him, that was worth millions. Yeah. You know, but the person that is still, you know, chasing that, get rich quick, you know, calling, you know. Yeah. Oh, like, I feel like, like, you know, although I do, I work all the time, you know, but that's what I feel like it, I don't really, but I don't feel like it's working. Does that make sense?

Like, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not laying block. I'm not hanging drywall. I'm not on a roof. In Florida, I mean, you might as well. You must be a sadist if you're going to be a roofer in Florida. I hear you. So, you know, I barely go outside during the day. I almost really never leave.

I'm actually going to steal my car because I was talking to my wife and I was like, listen, I'm paying like 400 bucks for the car payment. Another $200 for insurance. This is ridiculous. I'm like, I never drive. she drives up to the gym in the morning and back. I said, if I had to go somewhere, it would be cheaper to Uber. I could Uber eight times a month.

I could leave my house twice to Tampa and back and still not pay $600. Correct. Five or $600, whatever it comes to. So anyway, but yeah, I basically never leave the house. Like I do this. Mm-hmm. You know, I write, I write R. articles. I do research articles. And, you know, I paint. Like, think about what I do. Yes. I talk to people. Yeah. You know, I talk to people. I write stories. And, you know, I paint. Like, honestly, it really, like, do you really have a job? I mean, I make my own schedule. Right. It's, it's, it's really, like, the idea that I was, and anybody who's ever watched my show,

has probably heard me say this 30 times. The fact that, you know, every time I start to get cocky or arrogant, I kind of remind myself like, bro, five years ago, you were laying in a bunk bed in prison thinking to yourself, how am I going to make a living? Like, I was telling myself, you're going to get a job at McDonald's and you're going to work your way to another job that you like, and maybe you'll sell used cars, you're going to live in someone's spare room, and you're going to be happy. You're going to be thankful.

Yeah. So, you know, and I would tell myself that. And so the idea that I'm making a living goofing off, my wife says, you live a cat's life. Like, you take nats. You, you stood on the couch. You, and I'm like, that's what you think I do during the day? She's like, I do. That is awesome.

You know? Yeah. But your story is inspired. And I think that's why it's so important. But it's the truth. If you think about five years ago, you're laying in that cot, and people think, oh, when you get out, you're never going to be able to find anything, your life's going to be crap, it's going to be whatever, and you have people telling you, why don't you try this? Why don't you go back? Why don't you pull off the perfect job? I mean, really? Thanks for the help, folks, because you're trying to get me peached again. Like, why in the world? But what you're telling people is, you don't have to have, you know, the corner office. You don't have to bus rots. You don't have to be laying tar on a roof. Good God Almighty. I mean, I can't think of anything worse in Florida, right? Yeah. I mean, I can't. And I know like our dad, we would be

driving and he would see somebody doing that type of job. And all he would say is, girls, do your homework. I mean, that's hard work, you know. And again, I think for people that are listening into you that are maybe going to get out in six months or a year. Okay, there are things you can do. And I think that's important for people to hear. I do. Yeah, I, you know, you say the inspiration thing. I hear the inspiration all the time. I get emails from guys saying how inspirational my story is. I'm like, and I'm always like, I don't, I've never once tried to be inspirational. I interview guys that went to prison, got out of prison, and they'll sit here and they'll talk about, they'll, they'll, they'll preach, like preach, like, it's so obvious that

they're trying to be, you know, well, now I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I'm, I, I'm, I, I'm, I, it's like, you know, and it's like, all right, all right, stop. It's so, I just feel like it's disingenuous. It's like, that's like, that's why you work. You're not trying. Yeah, I'm, I'm, so I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, but I keep getting these guys that come, but I also get the guys that, that, that, that, that, that, send me the emails that say, bro, like, I'll give you however much money you want if you'll just tell me how to do this, how to do that. Help me set it up. Help me do this. And I'm always like, are you serious? Like, you do understand that if you go out right now and just do anything, the feds are just going to add my name to the indictment. I mean, they're going to look at your

phone. They're going to see that we've spoken six times on the phone. They're going to see that we had correspondence, you know, they're going to, like, they don't even have to tell the jury. They can just say, oh, by the way, he was in communication with this guy. They're going to, like, add his name. Then even if I said, hey, you know what? I'm going to trial. Wow, what a mistake that is. I can't take the stand because they're going to be like, oh, you took the, oh, by the way, jury,

now that he's taken the stand, we're going to list all the things he's been convicted of. Don't convict me again, even if there's no new evidence. And he was talking to this guy who got caught doing the same thing he was doing. The jury, even if I was on the jury, I'd be like, yeah, bro, I don't, I don't, hell of a coincidence. I'm like, don't talk to me about that. You sound like my husband. My husband laughs. I mean, I've got plenty of prosecutors and judges and special agents in my phone.

But I also have the Frank Colladas of the world and Robert Shablin, Johnny Lee Cleary. and he says, what if something legitimately happens to you and they go through your phone and you've had contact with a hitman, you've had contact with this person in a hate group, you've had contact with this person, you know. But again, as they say, game recognizes game. You know, a con man is going to look at you and understand. A prosecutor is going to look at you and understand. So, you know, part of me, again, you are inspirational and I think your story is

important and it's important for both sides because I have people that you know sometimes give me a hard time like how can you possibly say this criminal is your friend um because he was right you know he was good to me he was funny he was engaging he taught me a lot I mean that's a good friend and yeah he had a pass but you know for the grace of God right like I started somewhat as a con artist I'll take a story you'll enjoy this. So I saw in a weekly reader where if you had chinchillas, you could make thousands of dollars. And that seemed like a get rich quick, which sounded good to me. I didn't want to work hard. I mean, I was, you know, six or seven years old. So I called the 1-800 number,

and I wanted to order the whole thing. Give me the chinchillas, the incubators, the lights. I need it all because I'm going to be super rich. So then they said, okay, what credit card? And I was like, well, I don't know anything about a credit card. And she goes, well, we can send it COD. And I said, well, what's that? And she goes, that's cash on delivery. Let's do that.

So we're, you know, in six to eight weeks, well, you know, when you're that little, that might as well be two years. I mean, I basically forgot about doing it. All of a sudden, there's a knock at our door one Saturday. And this person is delivering live animals, is stamped on the crate. And my dad is like, what? And they're like, these are the chinchillas and the incubators and all the wires and the lights and the feed. And, you know, you owe us, whatever it was.

I don't remember if it's $175 or what it was. But at the time, you know, in 1970, it was a ton of money. And my dad's like, you can take these things right home back. You know, I'm not paying you for this stuff. Well, I'm standing there. You're missing the opportunity of a lifetime. you know, we're going to be rich, you know, and of course he's cracking up, but he's also like, you cannot be ordering stuff, you know, much less COD, and you probably were not going to make a dime.

And, you know, I was frustrated for a good couple of years because, okay, we're just going to stay broke. He would not get with the program, and I'm like, sir, come on. Bent is the story of John J. Boziak's phenomenal life of crime. Inked from head to toe, with an addiction to strippers and fast Cadillacs, Boziac was not your typical computer geek. He was, however, one of the most cunning scammers, counterfeiters, identity thieves, and escape artists alive, and a major thorn in the side of the U.S. Secret Service

as they fought a war on cybercrime. With a savant-like ability to circumvent banking security and stay one step ahead of law enforcement. Boziak made millions of dollars in the international cyber underworld, with the help of the Chinese and the Russians. Then, leaving nothing but a John Doe warrant and a cleaned-out bank account in his wake, he vanished. Boziak's stranger-than-fiction tale of ingenious scams and impossible escapes,

of brazen run-ins with the law and secret desires to straighten out and settle down, makes his story a true-crime con game that will keep you guessing. Bent, how a homeless team became one of the cybercrime industry's most prolific counterfeiters. Available now on Amazon and Audible. You know, there's other things that I tried. I saw a truck and it said, pine straw for sale. Our yard is eat up with pine straw. So if you're going to buy it, right?

And then I went to my neighbors who were elderly and I said, you know, can I wreck your yard? They're like, sure. and I'm like, suckers, because they don't realize people pay for this. Well, again, my dad had to explain, honey, you're not going to make any money. I mean, you can rake every yard in this community, you know. So anyway, he's the reason I'm still broke.

I mean, that's just it. So we all have a little con artist. You know what I mean? Yeah. And I think we all, we all have. good. We all have a little, maybe not so good, but people are mostly good. So, okay, so I don't know how we got on top of it.

So when did you start? Okay. When did you this? We're 50 minutes into this one. Okay. There's 25 on the other one. How did you start? Um, I'd always, you know, again, I read everything I could. And when I was 18, the very first criminal justice gig, I guess, that I ever had, I was hired to be a store detective at a large department store called Riches. At 18? Yeah, because they wouldn't suspect me.

It was great. I had a great time, learned a ton. From there, I worked at the Greater E. Rick Crisis Center because they would, actually allow me to volunteer there at 18, and I could actually interview victims. And I worked directly with a gentleman by the name of Detective Black. He was extraordinary to me. He taught me how to interview. He taught me how to write a report. And there were oftentimes that I was able to get information from the victim that he was not able to. So that was just laying the groundwork for what was to come. And then as I worked through college, I had different internships.

I had one with the FBI, one with the Secret Service. I just had a great time. And then my first real job was with the Crime Commission. And I just never looked back. And this year is my 40th year doing something in criminal justice. Okay. Did you ever work for like the, who do you work for now? You said you're currently... I worked for a metropolitan Atlanta police department. And I'm there a crime scene investigator. Okay. How long have you worked there? I've been there eight years this week, actually.

Okay. Do you ever work for the Sheriff's Department or? I worked for the Fulton County Sheriff's Department for eight years in special ops. I worked for the Crime Commission. I worked as a probation officer. I've done a lot of really interesting. I've had a really lucky career. When I was with the Crime Commission, I was assigned to the major case division.

and we had a prosecutor there that was just a spitfire and the first time I ever met the prosecutor was about 2.45 at the morning at a crime scene and this little sports car comes flying up and this person jumps out and they're like, what do you got what do you have? What can I do to help? And I'm like, what in the world is that?

I mean, I'd never see anything like it. I had never seen at that time a prosecutor outside the courthouse. They always stayed in the ivory. tower, as it were. And that prosecutor turned out to be Nancy Grace. Oh, my God. So, you know, I've had a lot of luck. I mean, I was in charge of the Olympic crisis response team, which nobody would have ever cared anything about, except we had a bomb. And then that matriculated into training with the State Department, and I got to train every single Olympic crisis response team

from then on. So, you know, luck is, luck is good. So, Nancy Grace, I wrote a story about a guy named Frank Amadeo. Frank Amadeo is a, the short version is he's a rapid cycling bipolar with features of schizophrenia. He's a lawyer. And he was a tax attorney in Atlanta when Nancy Grace was the, I guess, the attorney, the estate attorney. a state attorney or she was just assistant district attorney okay right and so he ended up having a a bout of depression for like a couple of weeks like two three weeks like he couldn't get out of bed and this would happen every few years to him sure so he so he was basically the one running

he had two partners but they were pretty much useless in this uh this um it was a a tax attorney kind of like H&R block, but for bankruptcy. Okay. I keep saying taxed it. For bankruptcy, sorry. He wasn't a tax attorney. He was a bankruptcy attorney. Sorry.

And they were kind of trying to do like a mill, right? They're just running them through. Well, anyway, he was the one who was basically doing most of the work. So when he disappears for two weeks, he was in the hospital for like a week. Then he wouldn't get out of bed at his house. So by the time he shows back up, this whole, everything's falling apart. Anyway, they ended up pilfering the account where people were paying money in to the account. He says, I don't know what's true and what's not true.

He says his partners ended up taking the money. He ended up saying something like he ended up getting $30,000 of it but didn't realize how they were paying. I might forget exactly what the story was. But in the end, the place closed. There were a lot of unresolved bankruptcies. And Nancy Grace came in and investigated the entire thing and tried to get Frank indicted. Friday indict him had held a couple of grand juries, but they wouldn't indict because I guess he wasn't really on the accounts and even, you know, so wasn't sure. So, but she was so upset about it.

She went to the U.S. attorney and gave him all the information. And the U.S. attorney was able to indict him. and so that's that's kind of you know that's my nancy grace story i'm sure you have hundreds way better than that but she actually made an attempt to indict this guy and then when she was so frustrated and irritated that she she couldn't indict if she's like oh well i got you and she went give it because you know the u.s attorney obviously the feds have a much more dependent ability to on a lot of their um a lot of the federal laws i had never heard that story i just I don't know him.

It sounds sad all the way around, but I will tell you, she comes from a place being a victim of crime that if she sees victimization in any way, financial, physical, emotional, she doesn't tend to let loose of it. And I tell people a lot that if you had a child missing, would you want her own it? Right. And 100% of the time people say yes, if it's their child. Because she's not going to turn loose. She's not going to stop arguing.

She's not going to stop calling people out. And she's got such a heart. I mean, I know her, know her. I just told you that's how we met. But, I mean, we, you know, have maintained our friendship. And I will tell you just one story. And I don't think she would care if I told this. But like back in the day, she took.

files home. So if you ever went to her house, she would have these files sometimes spread out. And we were there one night talking about a case, and she literally touched every single file and prayed over it. She prayed for the officer. She prayed for the judge. She prayed for the victim. She prayed for herself. You know, please let me do the right thing. Let everybody do the right thing and let there be justice. And that's one of those things that if you don't, if you only know the TV persona, you sometimes think, man, she's just, you know, a bulldog. But then when you think about, you know, she was so close to being married and she was so happy and she was so young and she was innocent. I mean, you're talking about a girl from making Georgia

that went to college at Valdosta State that had her whole world not flipped upside down, but ripped apart, that instead of just go. going home and not being able to get out of the bed, decided, okay, my fiance was murdered, who was a baseball star, and I was going to be an English teacher. Well, now I'm going to go to law school, and I'm going to make sure this doesn't happen to another person. Right. Well, everybody's hard on law enforcement, you know, until someone breaks in their house. That's right.

Or their attack, where they need them. And then it's defund the police until, sure until my their you know my neighborhood is overridden with crime yep and then it's where the police it's like okay well she were at that protest last month yeah um so yeah so yeah i can see her uh i mean i could see wanting that prosecutor after he was any even frank we were i wrote i wrote a story on him and we were incarcerated together and he was like he's like she she had two grand jury or two grand juries two yeah she couldn't indict me two and he was like she just wouldn't let it go it's like well that's her you got indicted he's like I didn't even

know I didn't know anything about it right um but we're we're talking that's you're in prison yeah yeah yeah yeah um but anyway yeah he's uh he was he's an interesting character oh yeah you'd you'd have a field day with him. I mean, he's actually incarcerated. And I wrote a story about him, by the way. It's called, it's insane. I actually wrote a book, but I wrote a synopsis and a book. I expanded the synopsis, you know, once I got out of prison, but I wrote a synopsis in prison.

It's probably 12 or 1,300 words, maybe, maybe 1,400 words. And it's on my website if you, if you ever want to read it. And if you don't want to read, I have an audio version. Anyway, he, since he was in his teens, he has believed that God is talking to him, and he is preordained to be emperor of the world. Now, remember, he's got features of schizophrenia. Goes to college, gets a degree, very smart. Sure. Gets a law degree, gets out, starts this bankruptcy thing, bankruptcy kind of firm.

And it ends up, you know, failing after whatever, five, six years. He then becomes a venture capitalist. He then gets indicted. He goes to, goes to a camp for like a year, gets out. He then gets out of that. It becomes a venture, sorry, becomes a venture capitalist, puts together a massive, massive company. He starts raising money for his company, which is ultimately going to basically, you know, It's like specter.

He is expecting it to dominate, economically dominate the U.S. and then spread throughout all continents. And, and, you know, and he's in, listen, he also has a military wing. Like, he's got his own private military. They've got contracts in, in Afghanistan. He's, it's, you know, it's, it's a massive operation. I've got pictures of him with Bush at the White House. And I don't mean like a photo off.

I mean, like they're sitting in the Roosevelt room. Like, you know, a group of people. He went, he would help sponsor a NATO summit. He, it's just a massive, massive undertaking this company. Ultimately, he ends up, he's doing most of this, by the way, by embezzling money by not paying federal income taxes, employment taxes, to the tune of $200 million. Wow. Eventually, the whole thing, the feds come in, the whole conspiracy behind it. He gets indicted. He goes to prison for 22 years. That's where I met him. So he's, he's a fascinating guy. But, yeah, it's, it's, it's, oh, listen, and if you read the story, it's insane. Like, he would, the things he was telling me. And then, of course, I would order the Freedom of Information Act. And I'd order the transcripts and, and I'd get the transcripts. And, and I'd get the transcripts. the Freedom of Information Act, and you've got, you know, FBI reports where they're talking about how he's trying to buy, you know, airplane. He's trying to buy like, um, he's, uh, F-16s and F-15s.

He's negotiating contracts to buy these used, you know, they gut them. They take all the electronics out. You can still buy the planes. He's talking about putting them in Cyprus, you know. He wants to buy, you know, 25 of them. He backed a coup in the Congo. There's a, there's a, there's a, there's a documentary about that. Yeah. Anyway, he's fascinating. But so back to you. Can I ask you, do you, can you, do you have any cold cases that are interesting to

you that you would, that you could talk about? Absolutely. I think one that I'll talk about right now is Melissa Wolfenberger. And the reason I'll talk to you about her is because we've been having a thing. this whole conversation, but Melissa went missing, and she was married, and her mother could not get any police department to take a missing person's report because she's married, she's grown, and if she doesn't want to have contact with you, she doesn't have to have contact with you, and if she wants to disappear or run away, that's not illegal. But her mom kept saying,

something's not right. She wouldn't have just left her children. She wouldn't, you know, stop having contact with me. Like even if she wanted to leave her husband, that's one thing, but she wouldn't abandon her family. So this goes on a while and finally she badgers her own police department enough or finally a detective says, fine. I will take a report that she's missing, but I can't investigate it. She didn't live in our jurisdiction.

There's no sign of a crime at all, but I will take it for paper trail. Well, she went to Atlanta police. and then said the same thing. She's missing. And Atlanta said, okay, since they've taken a police report that she's missing, we'll do the same thing, but that's as far as we can go. We've been by the house. There's no sign of anything.

They've moved away is what it looks like. Fast forward, a driver delivering for UPS sees a ripped garbage bag and a skull in the middle of the street. He stops. The skull is misidentified as a Caucasian. male. So it sits on a shelf because it's not pertaining to Melissa. Fast forward again, months later, that was

April, the skull was found. In June, four more trash bags were found, each containing an arm or a leg. Some dental records were done. Comes back to be Melissa. Now, this has been going on for years and years.

The person that has been helping me understand the crime, understand the players, understand what law enforcement could and could not do, and most importantly, understand possibly the number one suspect is her father. Her father is the friend. I thought you were to say her husband.

No, no, he's probably on the suspect list, but the person that's helping me understand everything who's literally helping me on the case is her father. who is the Flint River killer. So we've been communicating via letter because he's in prison. So again, it's one of those things. Who understands a killer better than another killer? Who understands these principal players better than him?

Who understands who's probably got a beef with him? Who wanted retribution? Or who had a background that was indicative of somebody that might at one point snap, possibly. so again everybody has a gift your story is helping people hopefully my background can help people Nancy grace's background is helping people well the Flint River Keller his background prayerfully is helping people and in this particular instance his own daughter wow what what how insane is that that his own daughter ends up getting murdered listen Matt it's the only case in history that I can find where a serial killer becomes a true victim of crime, meaning

somebody in his immediate family is murdered. Right. And then he reaches out to law enforcement for help because the detective that originally arrested him for his murders, he asked when she was still missing, can you find her? He said, you caught me after 25 years. Can you find my daughter? so it's an incredible story and it's it's one of those that I think will be in my career it's going to be the only one like it it's the only one in history like it but again sometimes people in prison have the information you need yeah what a what a great if there was an actual a resolution wouldn't that be that would be just what a what a phenomenally unique

story, you know, bizarre, but just... Bizarre. Right. Like, you can't make it. That's, that's a great thing about true crime. Like, you know how many times I've been writing someone's story or interviewing them and you just look up and you go, what? Exactly. You couldn't even come up with it. Like, this sounds so insane that it's almost fake. Like, it's almost like... Oh, absolutely. Yeah. If I sat down and was watching some show,

and this was the premise, I'd be like, ah, come on, never going to happen. Never going to happen. Like with Robert Chablis, I was the only person in law enforcement he would fool with. When he would even go back to Alcatraz, he didn't want to shake hands with the old guards. He would openly tell you, I don't have any use for anybody in law enforcement. We are not friends. I mean, it was literally in us versus them in his life. So I get that.

But when you, again, you've got somebody. that they chose the path they chose for whatever reason. But now, you know, just like Nancy Grace, Nancy was on one path and it got flipped. You know, Carl was on one path and it got flipped. So at this point, you need the help of the very people you can't stand. You know, it's all good. And then maybe prayerfully we can see each other a little different.

I it's it's funny I was just say how small the world is and how you know it it's I had I wrote a story about a guy whose best friend had he had overdosed you know he had overdosed you know like everybody thought it was an overdose but everybody didn't think it was over the police said it was an overdose he kept he and everybody else was like it's not an overdose this this doesn't make sense like they're like oh well then he killed himself they're like they didn't kill himself like Like, you know, and then a couple of, a year or two later, the guy wrote the story about his name was Vitaly, Joseph Vitaly, he gets arrested and he's in the U.S. Marshal's holdover waiting to be sentenced. And he befriends, or a guy kind of starts talking to him befriends him. And that guy ends up, he's like, oh, what do you do? Oh, he's, I'm a stockbroker. I raise venture capital and do this.

Oh, okay. they have a little conversation he's like oh i knew a stockbroker oh you did he's like oh yeah yeah yeah you know and he starts telling him about how they kind of befriended him and we're hanging out and we're parting and doing drugs because a lot of people this is in in uh palm beach palm beach is notorious for all these listen half the guys in palm beach are are con artists so he's down there and you know they're in in that industry a lot of drugs a lot of you know so the guy ends up talking about and talking to me. He said, and I start to realize that he's talking about my buddy. And he, you know, so I kind of keep saying, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, oh, do you know

so and so, yeah, yeah. So we have a whole conversation. The guy ends up telling him, yeah, that guy owed this girl that I used to mess with a lot of money. He said, I ended up having to do him in. And he's like, he's like, really? Like, he doesn't know he knows him. He never said I know that guy. Wow. And he ends up saying that he and he goes, how did you do it? He said, I gave him a hot shot. And he was like when he told him, he said, I didn't know what that was. He's like a hot shot. He's like, yeah, yeah, you know, I such and such. And, you know, I did this. He's like, then we went through the house. We got like 30 grand. We now keep in mind to his girlfriend, your fiancee, when they found the body, she of course immediately said it's, you understand he was murdered.

The house was robbed. We're missing 30,000 in cash. We're missing. And she listed all of these items. And the problem was, is he was doing drugs. He did die of a drug overdose. So the police looked at twice. And they said, you know, look, I get it. But the guy's not talking. You know, by the way, he was back in for robbing banks. He'd gotten out of prison, like we got out of prison in the halfway house, started robbing banks, got picked up again. In the meantime, he kills this guy, gets picked up again, and he's waiting sentencing what happens to be the guy's best friend or good friend if you can have a best friend when you're in your 30. Yeah.

So, I mean, what a small, like those, that's one of those things that you just, you couldn't. That's right. Those coincidences that happen, you go, how. That's right. How odd is that? What a small world. It is a small world. And the guy would say something.

Of course, he's saying something because he's thinking, what are the chance of this guy? Yeah. Nobody. Just some guy in prison. were both waiting like he doesn't know enough he said but i did know i knew all the people that he knew i knew who it was he has even mentioned the name of his subdivision specifically told him the name of the subdivision i mean like he was naming off all of these things anyway crazy yeah it's uh it's it's an odd odd world so yeah i love true crime it's those types of things that you

go that's that's bizarre there's so many bizarre things boy that that story you that's amazing the, that's got to be a resolution. You need to figure that one. I'm hoping. We're hoping. I'll text you when I have an update. All right. For sure.

And you have a podcast, right? I do. It's called Zone 7. What do you talk about on the podcast? Cold cases that we've worked. And Zone 7 came about because in the Atlanta Police Department, there's six police zones. So back in the day before cell phones, if we wanted to all meet afterwards, you know, you just couldn't go over the radio and say, hey, everybody, we're going to meet at the bar tonight. So we would say, let's 5'9 at Zone 7 after shift.

So that way it would be acceptable. And then Zone 7 kind of became this group of people that you trust, that have your back, that are not going to, you know, do harm to you by talking about you or setting you up. breathe, that kind of stuff. The people you can literally go to, you know, not unlike a criminal organization, you know, you want those people that are going to tell you the truth, that are going to protect you, that are going to, you know, not talk crap about you when you're not in the room, the people that only want to help you, whether it's on a case or, you know, further your career or whatever. So your zone seven is, you know, pretty small, but it's a powerful group. So That's why I call it zone seven, because the people that I have, my guest, are people that are in my zone seven.

Okay. So how many people are, is it just, are you the host or are there other people involved? I'm the host, and I bring people in because they have something to do with the case we're talking about. They either have an expertise in whatever it is, or they helped me, or we searched the scene together. There's some reason they're there, and that'll come out during the, you know, interview. Okay. How often do you post? Like, how long have you been doing it? I've only been doing it six months yesterday, and I post on Wednesdays once a week. Okay. And is it on YouTube?

No. It's just, you know, eye hard and Spotify, that sort of thing. You got to put it on YouTube. You got to get the Streamyard thing. I've got to learn how to do that. I figure it out. I couldn't use the cell phone when I got out. Clear. There was no iPhone. There were no iPhones when I went to prison.

When I went to prison, YouTube had been out for like a year. I'd never been on it that I know of that I could recall. Facebook had been out for like a year. I was on the run and I remember my girlfriend said, hey, do you want to get a Facebook page or this thing Facebook? People are moving from MySpace to Facebook. And I was like, I don't think that's a good idea. I'm wanted. It's probably not a good idea. I don't know. Feel bad. I'm not, you know,

I'm not an expert on being wanted, but it feels like a bad idea. It does feel like a bad idea. Yeah. I'm, you know, I'm not an expert. But so and then YouTube had, you know, like it had just come out. Like you weren't readily watching it. You know, people weren't seeing. Like, I don't ever recall knowing what it was, but I do know when I've looked back on it, like, oh, no, it was out, but I don't ever recall really hearing about it until I was years into prison. And then and then podcast wasn't a thing because that's a new word. That wasn't even invented into like 2008 or 9 or 10 or something. I wasn't remember. It's like they put two words together. And then I would meet guys. iPhones didn't come out until like 2009. So I was already locked up like three

years. I remember there was a guy one time telling me he, because he was there for. for almost like half a million to a million dollars in an iPhone crimes. He would, he would get a corporation, have people go in and get corporate accounts. Like they'd give them like nine iPhones on corporate accounts. They didn't have to have a, they didn't run the credit, nothing, which is corporation. And so they'd get the phone, didn't go on their, on their credit or anything. So they'd give them the phone for nothing. So they get like nine.

And he'd send people in over and over. And then he'd sell the phone, he'd pull out the SIM cards or whatever. And then he'd sell the phones overseas. They'd give him like $400 for like $1,000 or $500 for $1,000. So he did this to the tune of like $500,000 or $600,000 or something. And so he was trying to explain it to me. And I was like, right, right, right. He's like, you know how in the, he kept saying, well, you know how on the iPhone this?

You know how on the iPhone? I said, and after about five minutes ago, I said, listen, listen, your crime didn't exist when I got locked up. Wow. I'd been locked up at that point, like 10 years. Yes. He was like, oh, wow, bro, how long you've been in the year? It was like, of course, he's a kid.

He's like in his late 20s, so he's like, you know, there's always, haven't they always existed? Like, no. No. Yeah, that's crazy. But yeah, it's, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, there was a, so if I can figure out how phones work and iPhones and YouTube and all that, like, come on. Roger that. You really have.

I'm on it today. You know, that's the job. I love the guys who are like, you know, you know, well, I'm not really a techie person. Stop it. Stop. I'm doing it today. I will start learning. Yeah, I was amazing. YouTube, you can look anything up. I can say anything to YouTube. And if somebody's made a video, there's 1500 videos on anything that I ask it. Yep. I learned how to edit and do everything on, on YouTube. Nobody. No, you're right. I didn't read a manual. I just said, you know, Final Cut Pro, how do you stack videos? And there's like 1,500 of them. I'm like, wow.

Well, all right, I know you've spent way more time than you expect it to spend. I've enjoyed every second of it, man. Absolutely. And listen, when you come to Atlanta next week, call me. I would love for you to come by and I'll show you the police station, give you a ride. We'll have some of it. What's funny, I'm, be nice. ride in the front of the police car. Absolutely. You know, it's funny as like when you first

said Atlanta, I thought, my first thought was, I stole $400,000 in Atlanta. That was the first place when the FBI showed at my office, the first place I went to in Alpharetta, Georgia. Alpharetta. Alpharetta. I rented somebody's house that was worth about $200,000. I went down to Fulton County, satisfied the two loans he had on his house made a fake ID in his name the name was Michael Shanahan and then I called three hard money lenders three or four

there's three three hard money lenders had him come out to the house and borrowed all three mortgages at the same time and borrowed like roughly $400,000 deposited the money into a bunch of banks pulled the money out and cash and then took off and then the Secret Service showed up you know, a few months, maybe a month or so later.

And, yeah, yeah. Do you remember, well, she was a U.S. attorney. Gail McKenzie? I don't know, Gail. No, yeah, she was in the U.S. attorney. Or she was an U.S. attorney. But the Secret Service, the officer on my case was Andrea Peacock. I know Andrew Peacock.

She was all very nice. Oh, yeah, she's very nice. She used to be with the Cobb County, D. office when I was there. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah, she was interviewed by American Greed when they did an episode. Yeah.

Very polite. Oh, yeah. She's nice. You know, everybody always talks about the FBI. I was like, the FBI, they were all mean. They were all kind of, kind of, no, not really. There was just one FBI. She was very nice good.

But, yeah, but the Secret Service, they were very polite, very professional, you know, not mean-spirited. I've met some mean-spirited people. Yeah. My involvement with the Secret Service has always been the same. Very professional, very nice. You know, they understand exactly what they're there to do. And, you know, it's all good. There's no arrogance. I've worked with other agencies, you know, it can be a little, you know. Because even in my world, I'm not a fed. Yeah, well, you know, just saying, you know, because you're not a fed, you know, sometimes you're treated differently because you're a little, you know, being. city, but, you know, whatever we're doing still got you here. So you're welcome. But I appreciate this. This has been fabulous. Wonderful. Okay. Yeah, definitely. I'm actually, I think I'm going to Atlanta again in August also because there's a cyber crime convention there. Okay. And they're going to have a bunch of people. And so I'm supposed to go to that too. Yeah.

Excellent. Well, right here if you need something, you know, again, I would love for you to come by and let's hang out. I appreciate you guys watching. Do me a favor. Hit the subscribe button, hit the bell so you get notified of videos just like this. Check out the description box for Zone 7. Matt goes over cold cases with other detectives. And I really appreciate you guys watching. Leave me a comment in the comment section. And thanks for checking out the podcast. See you.