Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - Insane True Story of Betrayal, Criminal Code, & Life In Prison

Episode Date: June 7, 2024

Insane True Story of Betrayal, Criminal Code, & Life In Prison

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First time offender, nobody physically harmed. Judge starts going into a speech. You're hereby sentenced to 144 years. I went in at 19 and then I was 25. I was 30. I went from little bro to big bro to OG. I'm aging in there. I wrote two letters. Wrote one to the world and one of my wife, and I was getting ready to get up out of here. At first, it was good. We were in the cul-de-sac, you know, ranch-style house, but with parents splitting up, dad being out of the household for months on in, finances going down and them trying

to figure out if they were going to be together, things declined. And when they eventually got split up, You know, I remember going from a house to a townhouse and a little basically the projects. Now, I'm in this small town in Virginia, and all we got is my older cousin, his friends, which they're cool, but I'm not really into what they're into. And I got my girlfriend, but that's it. So my social circle, that's all I was exposed to outside of work. And I'd hang out with my cousin, his friends, I'd get off work, drink with them because he eventually ended up getting his own spot.

And they were always over there plotting, you know. Yeah, they always had a plan. They always, they were doing this. They were going to make a move. And I was never into it. I was a hustler. They were trying to stick shit up. Right.

Yeah, and I wasn't trying to hear that first. What were you doing for work? I was working at Walmart. Tire. Yeah, changing tires and, you know, just that trying to, I call it, reacclimate to society. Right. I just going from the military,

to, and there's nothing wrong with that. Don't get me wrong at Walmart or stocker's job or changing tires, but it was just, it was a shock to the system. I wasn't happy and it was just. Unless you're up the chain pretty far in Walmart, that's not a, that's not a sustainable career that's going to, you're going to retire at, unless you're upper management of some kind. Right. You know, how do you get there, you know? And you're 19, you don't see it. You're like, oh, you can't see, you can't see 10 years away at 19. You can't see a month and a half away. No, not at all. So, so you're saying you're hustling and these guys are, you know, plotting like robberies and shit.

Like, is that what they're plotting? Or are we talking about, like, bank robberies? Or we're talking about just rob a local dealer. They're planning any type of robberies. Whether it's dealer, store, bank, that was the conversation. My cousin used to be the type every time I used to go to his apartment, every single, they'd have an old mob flick, good fella. They'd have something on teeth. Like, that's, that was the.

vibe they were in that was just but they weren't on shit you know i was a 19 year old kid and i'm listening i'm talking my cousin they're older i'm not around them all the time through the conversation i'm really thinking they're out there doing some things um and they weren't to the magnitude that they were but i was feeding into the conversation little by little over time at first i was like i'm not trying to hear that you know but with your older cousin you know you want to be loyal you know your family. You know, this is who you hang out with every day. So there come a point with the conversation. It went from me being outside of it to little by little because I was over there and being exposed. Now I'm in it. Maybe it's just two seconds of, you know, some insight or something

I'm giving, you know, hey, wait if, what if y'all do this, you know? And that's really what got the ball rolling for real. So what happened? Yeah. So, man, my cousin had came to me Probably like three, four weeks, probably about a whole month straight after I initially started jumping into conversations. Again, I'm thinking they're just watching movies. Right. They're talking. I never seen my cousin with any real money. And I'm just taking them as the older people, you know, the older whatever guys in the neighborhood that really ain't on nothing.

They just, you know. But the conversation started getting more serious and intense. And I'd say about two weeks in, came to his apartment, walked in a little. living room and there was a gun on the table and I remember when I walked in cousin or not I'd never seen a gun on the table in here so it had my antennas up went and sat down on the couch he was in the kitchen he hadn't meant he was nonchalant with it his buddy was in the back the other bedroom or whatever I sat down I looked at the gun I seen it was just a BB gun okay yeah immediately I was like okay well fuck it like what's a BB gun what are they doing like well even in a

robbery of EB gun might as well be you might as well go ahead and get yourself at 357 well we we learned a lot about that a little bit later on so in my mind 19 year old kid not informed see a BB gun been talking to my cousin a couple weeks now he's having conversations about wanting to do some things his home boys he walks out the kitchen and i never remember i'll never forget he walks out and um he just looks at me he's like yo it's go time i'm like what the fuck you mean it's go time He's like, this is what we've been talking about. Me having conversations with them to hold again, I got to go back, I had no idea. I thought it was just talk and I thought we were just relating to a movie and it was fantasy world or whatever it is.

And any time that it felt serious, I tried to convince him to hustle. I said, let's just go get a pack. Let's go get us some tree. Let's go get us something. Let's just do it the, I call it old-fashioned way. I don't want to go stick now. I say, you know, y'all get 100 years, you know. he said no he said it's go time you know and um i said what you mean he said

we got it just like that like he was proud like got what the b b b b gun a i'm a 40 old man to tell you now there's no way hell i would have been in that room or hanging out with those guys then but this was his proud moment this was i guess the this was the go this was we can go now. This is it. He started talking. He came up with a plan when he was like, you know, we're going to go hit this store. We're going to go hit such and such. He just throwing out random places. Ignored him that night. Walked out. I was like, because you're tripping. Told his homeboys, I said, y'all are out of control. Maybe over the next couple weeks still going over there, you know, bringing my girlfriend over there, whatever. Conversation kept going. And one day he just

looks at me, says, look, I need you to go with me, little cuss. I don't got no ride. He didn't have a car at the time. It broke down, whatever was going on. He's like, man, I'm late on rent. I owe such and such money. He's like, just go with me one time. Don't leave me hanging. He said, you don't even got to go in. It's a BB gun. He's breaking it all down to me. So I'm looking in my mind. In my mind, I'm calculating. I don't want to go. I'm like, oh, shit. I can feel it. I'm like, this ain't, this is not what I'm supposed to be on. But I'm ignoring that feeling. I'm trying to justify it. He's talking about a BB gun. Okay, cool. Nobody's going to get shot. He just said nobody's going to get hurt. I don't have to get

out the vehicle. To what are you driving? You're just driving? He asked me to be the driver. Yeah. Yeah. That's in my might as well go in the bank. But in my mind again, this is the problem. Listen, I always, let me tell you. I always thought, you might want to run with this at some point. I always thought you want to try and help curve crime sometime around 8th or 9th or 10th grade teach the sentencing guidelines. We're doing it now. Oh, really? Because listen, you know what? Like to me, the concept that you could get the kind of time that's available out there for it, you're like, for what? That's what we're doing now, educating people and their parents to that. Yeah. Oh, they're in shock. I bet they're in shock. And in denial, a lot of them. Oh,

they can't happen they can't give you that kind of time that's not right that's the defense that's i'm what i'm watching a kid right now without but i'm watching a kid he's he's being led to slaughter right now he's he just turned down a plea public defender co-defendant snitched and mama's screaming he's going to be that they're not going to do that and i'm i'm telling that's you're in denial they're probably well they're probably offering five or ten and he she's not going to he's not going to take it and he's going to end up with fucking 30 begging for that fucking 10 they offered them 10 and he's facing 10's like six now

it's robbery charges with you know what I'm saying and full I mean I don't know whether it's state or whatever but yeah in federal now 10 yeah you used to be eight and a half right now it's like six because you can get you can get so much time on an ankle monitor

halfway house all that yeah yeah but this is this is what we're doing yeah I didn't know so he's justifying it he's telling me in my mind I'm doing the calculations I'm not going to get out the car so or at the truck so we do get caught they're not going to tell on me right this is my cousin this is his own boys and if we do get caught i can't get that much time right it's a bibby gun i'm i'm i'm gonna try the nobody's gonna tell on me part the nobody he's my cousin yeah doesn't mean

anything when you're facing 20 or 30 years yeah i i'll miss you and i'm telling not to keep going that we're talking to these, these kids and people are getting ready, this is the reality. When you sit down and you got a co-defendant, you're both giving the opportunity, one of you is probably going to take it. Fuck, yeah, I'll put money on your books, bro. You can go do that fucking 20. If I get the walk or get five years instead of 20. Yeah.

Yeah, I know, man. Sorry, man. I like you. Listen. But, you know. It's reality. Yeah. The average guy is not going to take 25 years for his own boy.

Yeah. When they're telling him, you can go home to your old lady and you can. kid, right? But I'm justifying and I'm, I'm, I'm good to go at this point. Like, I'm mustering up courage and I finally, you know, you're having a conversation, you get annoyed with it and you just want it in. You're like, fuck it. All right, man, you got it. And that was it. And you're telling yourself it's going to go smooth. I'm telling that myself it's going to go smooth. I said, all right, you got it. I said, all right, bro. I'm going to go with you, man. I said, but after this, I said, I don't know more. I said, I don't even want to do this

shit. I think that's also part of the whole justification thing. It's always like this is the last lick. That was it. You know what I'm saying? I was a 19 year old kid playing with my life and even though I was justifying my way through. I was ignoring every fucking warning sign that could have been at that moment. I'm talking about down to that night when I went home, I talked to my girlfriend and she looked me. She begged me. And she thought I was going right back out that night to the point she had put herself between the door and was just, don't go out there with your cousin. and please please please because she already knew right got through that night it nothing happening I was staying at the home house anyways but the very following day dropped her off at

work after I got off went over to my cousin's house and he was like we're going tonight and I was like what the fuck I was like what do you mean we're going tonight he's like we're going tonight said where are we going he's like I don't want to tell you because I don't want if you're just the driver the less you know if something this is what he tells him i know so much more now he said i don't want to tell you he said because if you're the driver and you know more than what you should you can't get in more trouble he's trying to break down all this he's trying to protect me in these in the scenario yeah you're basing this you know you're based this you're based on your vast experience what being a dishwasher at you know at best he was

you know what i'm saying he was working at hearties right yeah flipping burgers for the fry chef you You know what I'm saying? Like, how? That gives you the, that lets you know the mentality, right? So I got into a little bit back and forth, but it was just at that point, again, you know what? Fuck it. Let's get it over with it.

Like, I'm tired of having these conversations. I said, yesterday I'm going to go. I don't want to be looked like a, you know, like a punk. I'm just driving. I'm going back down the list again. And every, all the bullshit he had told me. He said, be back because it was like 4 o'clock in the afternoon, you know, still day. like he said come back he said just be back around like eight you know he said we're going to

have us a drink smoke get ready to go went came back that night went to the apartment he had a bottle on the table was two homeboys that would become my co-defendants that night and we sat down we had a drink and I felt so out of place in that moment they were so hyped up and am two BB guns now. Right. Handkerchiefs or bandanas, whatever, it was not well planned. It was, they were, they hadn't have been doing it. There's no way they could have been doing anything outside of this at the time. Right. Looking back. But, um, had a drink, smoked. When got a truck. Um, yeah. And it was a cold October night. Went got a truck like you, you guys stole a truck? No, no. I had a truck. Oh, you had your truck. Oh, you had your truck.

Yeah, I remember that. Suzu rodeo with the crash bar. It was my, it was my, but got in the truck, and like I say, it was October. It was just one of those cold, like rainy, you know, nights. And on the way there, I remember the song playing. I remember everything. I remember me inside my head trying to must up enough courage to tell my cousins and like, fuck that, we're turning around.

I'm not going. And before I know, he had told me to take the last left because he, I never told me where it going, but he's like, yo, just park here. We'll be back. It was it. Like, I didn't take the out. I didn't must up enough courage to say, nah. So we pull up, boom, I park, and they're out.

But where was it? They had me park off the distance, like off the distance. But they ran into a restaurant at a initial time. It was just a mom and pops. Allegedly they had got some information or something that there was going to be some decent money there. But no. No. It just, my thoughts are they just seen as an opportune spot and they didn't, they didn't think it out well.

Right. And went, when I pulled up, they hopped out. They were gone probably for about two, three minutes. I couldn't see them. It was dark by then. I could hear them when they were coming back. And those two, three minutes felt like two, three hours. I swear, I was looking through every window.

I'm rear view and I'm checking. I hear him running back to the truck. They open the door, you know, how the light pops on. I can see money falling out in my cousin's hand. I pull off one of my co-defendants at the time where eventually would become one. He's like, fuck, I dropped my bandana. So now as I'm driving with the lights off trying to get us home or back to his spot, in my mind, I'm praying and I'm still justifying. I'm like, all right, well, it was kind of raining.

Maybe the bandana got blue. Maybe the money to rain or what. Maybe none of that stuff will get seen, but, you know, come on. If witnesses see people run in a certain direction, obviously the police are going to probably walk that way or look that way. Right. They have two guns on them. They got two threatening people. Yeah.

Yeah. We're in it now. It's over with it. So get them back, drop them off. I asked them one last time. I was like, because nobody got hurt. He was like, no, I told you that. We got BB guns.

Stop asking me. He said, just be back here tomorrow. And I was like, oh, all right. His demeanor had changed now. It went from, hey, because I need you to now. It was like, now he's a tough guy. Yeah, now he's a tough guy. Now he's the fucking man.

Now he's barking almost orders. Right. Right. Make it home myself that night back to my grandmothers. And that was the word, like most paranoid night of my existence. I'm looking out the window, every car driving by, every sound, every cricket, every creek, whatever. Like, I'm hearing it.

I'm up. I'm on a hundred. because I'm just waiting for the police to come. I'm just waiting for him to pull. I'm like, yo, somebody saw the truck, anything. Nobody comes. Get up the next morning. I'm trying to act like everything's normal.

You know, get up, get dressed, go to work, get off, go to my cousins, the meat. It's time to get the money. Walking to my cousin's apartment, to meet him, his two buddies, the other guys that went, we're in the kitchen, and we're standing, he pulls out blue money bag from a up top and he unzips it he does his whole fucking theatrical by the time he pulls out the money and gives everybody there i probably made out with i can't remember the exact number now but no more than five hundred dollars easy i can safely say under that and he had this big old knot in his pocket his home boys i want to add this part they were followers they were flunkies

Right. They didn't say anything. I did. I was like, damn, bro, why is you're not big in the art? Like, you know, what's going on with that? He was like, no, I got mostly singles. And I'm like, that's crazy. I said, bro, I said, don't worry about I'm not.

We're not doing this no more. He said, I said, literally now we're going back. Oh, you acting funny over the money. I'm like, bro, we just risked everything. I got $500, you know, $400 some in my pocket. And you're walking around with this. I said, this isn't right. He said, man, we're good.

He said, just chill out. We're good. I said, fuck it. I left, walked out. And everything was good. Everything was good for probably about two weeks. And then the weirdest shit happened. And I don't want to say I felt like we were going to get away by then.

But it was quiet. You know, two weeks in, you don't really see anything on the news. You're good to go. And I've never been in that situation. So I'm just hoping, praying. Were they just waiting for the DNA to come back from the bandana? Well, let me tell you what happened. Let me tell you about these intelligent individuals that I connected myself to.

So one night, neighbors call, police, noise complaint, baby crying. One of my cousins' co-defendants had moved in with his baby mother. They had the bedroom. He had the other bedroom. Baby crying loud music. Cops call. Get called. Cops come.

They knock on the apartment door. music's blasting they hear baby crying cousin opens the door i'm not here i read all this in the motion for discovery and when he opens the door they smell marijuana they're smoking in there gives the cops a reason to come in now right we called about a child music's blasting we smell marijuana it's not legal where we at cops enter the premise and they don't find any baby's good it wasn't no crazy shit like that but um they find like a bong but they keep searching now they're looking for weed they go in the kitchen this is an emotion discovery they reach up on top of the pantry and um they pull down the blue money bag they kept the blue money bag they kept the fucking blue

money bag they never got rid of it until this day i'll never know why i don't even understand the thought process behind that. Yeah. So police took it. They tagged it. Nobody got, you know, locked up or anything at night. And they don't really know what it means. That means something, though.

Yeah, they don't, it means something. This is abnormal. We found a bone. We're going to take this. The next day, because that happened at night, the next day they hadn't told me anything. I rolled over there. And that's when my cousin is our co-defendants will eventually would be. They're like, yo, the cops are over here, but we're good.

They got a money bag, but they're not going to be able. Here goes them. They're just giving me all the reasons why we're not going to get called and everything's going to be good. And my cousin was like, look, if something goes left, I got you because you're not, you was in the car. Nobody knows you were there. You're good.

So I was like, all right. I said, okay. I said, but bro, this is not right. Everybody, all three of them acted like they weren't scared. Like, they were good to go. within the next like 36 hours or 48 hours the two co-defendants my cousin's homeboys they were both gone they shot down here at florida they were like fuck that they went on the run my cousin was desperate he felt the pressure because in the midst of them being on the run they ended up

getting picked up down in florida down there somewhere in south florida somewhere they didn't have anywhere to stay they were loitering outside of fucking target or something got picked up by the cops and they already had warrants on them. The grand jury had already indicted. They had fingerprinted the bag, traced it back to the crime, and that was a start. And in VA, I don't know how it is, you know, anywhere else, but at the time, especially for like state charges, grand jury indictments, the grand jury convenes like every Monday. And you don't know. It's not like they're going to tell you, hey, we're deciding if we're going to issue a warrant.

But by the time they had got locked, my cousin had disappeared. I went by his apartment two, three times. I'm like, fuck, he must have dipped, too. I couldn't find him. I'm like, and I'm paranoid now. I'm like, shit. But in my mind, I'm good. He'd say, oh, if anything happens, you weren't in there.

Nobody's going to be able to pin you, but us, and we're not going to tell. I'm thinking I'd be at the police station saying, listen, I think these guys might have done something wrong. I think I remember hearing my cousin say something. Did you find a money bag? Because, I mean, they're coming for you. They're coming. Yeah. Not only are they coming, they're telling me they coming.

Christmas Eve, 2002, at my grandmother's house, trying to be as happy as possible. Family doesn't really know what's going on yet with stress, cousin disappeared, you know. But that's neither here or there. He's grown. Who knows? Maybe he went back to D.C. That's how the family looked at it. Get a knock on the door, my grandmother's house.

And look out front. two white guys, middle age. I'm like, nobody, I don't know any white people. Not like that, you know, at the time. And especially my grandmother's house. My grandmother's meeting and shit. And nobody came to her house. Nobody came to the front door at that. So it was really abnormal Christmas Eve. I opened the door. And immediately when I opened the door, one of the guys holds up a photocopy picture. And it's a picture of my cousin. And he's hogtied. he had tried a strong arm or went in there with the BB gun they identified it tried the strong arm the place robbed a Chinese restaurant and they beat them and they hog tied them and they

waited to the police showed up oh yeah and a detective showed up with that picture and literally they were like we're coming and I said what are you talking about they're like oh you don't have you don't have to worry about we know what we know what we're talking about and then the one detective looks over at me, he says, hey, do me a favor. When you go on a run, go somewhere warm. So when we get you, we can take a vacation. And I was just like, man, I don't know what you're talking about. He's like, okay, we'll see you around. They walked off. I closed the door and I tried to act like everything was normal for the holidays. What are your family saying? What are they like? They didn't know they came. But they don't know they're locked up too because he's locked up now. He

didn't reach out to anybody? No. He reached out to his mother. who was back in D.C. He didn't reach out to his father who was down there with us. And she didn't disseminate the information. No, because, yeah, they had been divorced and it was disconnect. But there was no communication. At this time, I was the only one that knew where my cousin was at from our side of the family. And I didn't want to tell them, especially it's Christmas Eve and shit. Like, this time, I'm just looking at it. Like, I might as well enjoy my last holidays, you know, for now, because I don't know what's going to happen. And, you know, after that probably for about two more weeks it was extreme paranoia and it was just waiting and they were

showing up outside my girlfriend's job the detectives and just sitting there just making a show um and just really harassing you know making statements to her making statements to um co-workers nothing too obvious but just walking in there and just asking if i'm there and you got your badge out like you're, you know, purposely trying to mess my day up. They're putting pressure on you, hoping you'll slip up or hoping you'll come in. Yeah. You know, go get a lawyer. Your lawyer's going to say, you need to go in and cooperate now, you know, or something.

They're hoping you'll do something because obviously if they have anything, you'd already be in cuffs. Right. So you don't really know that either. You're just a kid. I don't know. I don't know. You try to make sense. At 19, you're okay.

You don't know how nothing works. No harm in disrespect to anybody that's younger. We all go through it, but you don't know shit. Right. And I'm in a grown man situation now. Military or not, ex-military audit, this is a grown man right here, right? And probably about two weeks in, I'm coming back from work. And I remember I telling my mother, I used to smoke Newport's.

My mother was a store manager there. I'm driving her home from work to my grandmother's. My mother's fussing at me. She's like, you need to stop smoking cigarette. I'm like, Ma, don't worry, this is the last one I'm smoking for a while. And, man, I finished the cigarette as we pulled up to my grandmother's drive where we really living at the time, my grandmother comes out, sprinting out the house. And she's like, what did you do? They were here. They were looking for you. They tore my shit up. What did you

do? And without hesitation, I just looked at my mom and I was like, mom, you got to take me to police station. And she was like, what's going on? Like a lot of parents, just like my mother, a lot of parents, they don't know what the fuck's going on with their kid. And she had never been in this situation. And the trouble that I got into, she always looked at me as the kid that was going to bounce back. Like, this is my son. Like, he's not going to get in that type of trouble. Right. So when I told her that, she looked at me. She said, why? I didn't tell her why. But I knew I was going to turn myself in immediately. I had made a decision probably about a week prior. I was like, I'm not going to run. I'm tired. At this point, I was popping, Tiling all threes, to go to

sleep at night, drinking, just anything to get my nerves down. And I looked at her. I said, let's go. Stopped. at the 7-Eleven on the way, you know, to the police department, got a Sprite. They called my girlfriend trying to stall, you know, to basically telling her I'm not going to be there tonight to pick her up, acting as if there was still some normalcy about, you know, still going forward. She said, what do you mean? What's going on? I said, I got to go to police station. I might not be seeing you for a minute. And she was like, well, what do you mean?

And she just started screaming. And I was like, oh, I got to go. I just hung up. I was like, I just got to go. I got to go now. Get to the police department. Mother scared as shit. She doesn't know, you know, eyes wide.

She's still trying to ask me what's wrong. And I'm so nervous. My nerves are so shy. I couldn't even really get it out. You know, I didn't want to tell my mother I'm probably going to jail or prison. I don't know how long. I did something bad. So we get to the police department, like I said, I walk in.

I go to the front desk. And I immediately, I'm like, oh, my name's Christopher Willers. I'm here to turn myself in. I think you guys were looking for me earlier. He tore my grandmother's house up. And before I could get everything out, maybe at the end of it, those two detectives, they were basically sprinting out the door like they had made a million-dollar bust. Like, they had to come get me.

Cuff me behind the back. Mother starts screaming. And that was the moment it got real. I likened that moment to being underwater and trying to get that last breath. before saying goodbye. Because hardest part of my, you know, incarceration, I'd say hands down, was hearing my mother scream, knowing I caused that pain, and I couldn't console her at the same time.

And she didn't know what the fuck was going on. She was just like, let me hug my son, let me hug my son. Eventually the detectives let her come over and she hugged me, but I couldn't hug her back. And then it was over with, they carried me to the back. And that's when it got, it was like, everything was real in that moment. Like, here we go. Went to the back.

It was about 4.30, you know, mid-afternoon, not yet, dinner time. And I was probably back there for about 30 minutes before I had went back to the booking and get fingerprinted and all that. The same two detectives came to me. And they pulled me into the interrogation room or whatever. And I'll never forget. Immediately pulls out this manila folder. He opens it up. out a couple documents, he slides them over. He says, hey, you're a good kid. You're the youngest

one. You're ex-military. This is not you. Don't you want to go home by dinner time tonight? I looked at him. No hesitation. I was like, I don't know what you're talking about. He's like, look, man, I'm trying to help you. If you don't take this out, you're going to be gone. And then that time, the second I said, well, what are we talking about? He said, well, you need to testify on your cousin, your co-defendants, and you'll be home. You sign this, you go home right now. Call your mother back.

Looked at him one more time, and I was like, I can't do that. I don't know what you're talking about. He's like, man. He's like, you just threw your life away. And I'm going to be the reason it's gone. Because at that point, he extended the olive branch, and because I didn't take it, it was like I was automatically, like, public enemy number one. Yeah, but he didn't sound like he really laid it out and explained it very thoroughly. Like, he didn't. The whole process with me going through it,

you know, but all he said literally, he's like, yo, if you testify, you go home right now. I didn't look at the paper. I didn't do anything. I don't know if it would have changed, you know, my decision making or any of that. I just know at the time my thought process was it wasn't even necessarily about not snitching. It was me and my cousin fucked up. We caused damage to this family. We need to figure it out. I don't want to be the cousin that goes home to the family and says the other one's still there because, you know, I testified. I'm assuming your cousin testified, pointed you out. Like it sounds like, I'll bet you all three of these guys. I don't know the story exactly. Yeah, well, yeah. So that was how they got me. I didn't, you don't know.

I mean, obviously somebody pointed to you. Yeah, you don't know until you know. Right. And one of his homeboys had began to talk, and they still were going to give me the out. Right. They were like, oh, he's just the driver, you know. But when I turned that down, detective made that statement immediately went to book and fingerprinted all that. I got put in a hole, yellow brick road processing before you go into population.

I'm back there in a hole. You're typically back there for about another week, week and a half, two weeks, whatever it is. and there was a point where I finally got used to schedule the tray slide open up. I'm thinking it's lunchtime. Tray slide opens up and, you know, I look, I'm laying down on my mattress. I'm in the hole. You can't do anything. And all of a sudden, a tape recorder gets sat down on my tray slot.

And I look before I can get all the way to look up out there to see who's there, press his play. And it's literally my cousin and another code of, I mean, they're just breaking everything down. But here's the thing. they're not just breaking everything down. They're trying to put other things on me as well because now, in reality, I could have went home. I was the low man on the total poll in regards to the crime. I didn't go into the spot, you know, all these things.

But because I didn't, all three of them took the opportunity because they knew what they were facing. And they were into a couple of different things, other things outside of what we were going on, had going on. And they tried to put that on me too and it got ugly. yeah um so they play so you just listen to them just just just roll it straight out this this is not the whole tape but enough for me to no it was over no it said yeah yeah and the reason i knew was it was over officially i ended up getting in the general population i listened at tape they

walked off and the last statement they were like yo we'll see you in court just like that we'll be front row they were cocky and um wait a minute fellas let's talk about this Yeah, you know what's crazy. One of the detectives, and it's take it back and come back, I was working at Walmart, Tyre, and Lou, and I was this desperate kid at the time, and I wasn't thinking anything crazy. But, you know how you take everybody's information, they come in, and, like, your license plate and your name, address, number pops up. Right. And, like, a week before I got locked, one of the detectives' daughters came in. And, no, I wasn't thinking anything crazy.

But, man, as a desperate kid, I was like, I know this dude's address. I can show up I can wait on them whatever you know I was thinking all these crazy thoughts so fast forward I'm glad I didn't do that

but this same guy he's talking greasy and I want to tell him like man I could have that would have been bad yeah I wouldn't that's not going to help you at all I wasn't going to do that anyways

I was just a desperate kid with crazy thoughts at the time but yeah they played a tape got into population after their last words to me and immediately got shot down no bond flight risk doesn't matter if i'm a first time offender doesn't matter if i'm a veteran at the time during 9-11 none of that matters what matters is i didn't um i didn't take the out right you know i didn't take the opportunity to be on their side

not only did i get no bond i didn't get a plea and that's how i knew i was i was fucked up i was asking the old heads in the jail and every time i would say to him i was like i didn't get a plea, they would look at me like, what do you mean you didn't get a plea? Because typically that's what they do. Yeah, that doesn't make sense at all. Like, they don't want to go to trial, you know? They don't want to go. They don't want to go through that. But that's how bad they had wanted me, us, whatever, that situation nullified, done. So no plea offered, no bond. And public defender, coming to jail, smelling like liquor, you know, making sure I was the last stop before he went home. and I'm running around to jail asking the old heads like what do you think I'm going to get what in my face and do you think and you know you're trying to just again you're just trying to get any type of ray of light any hope and they're all looking at me like you got robbery charges like and I say charges because I need people to understand too like what we were kind of discussing earlier first off you don't know the laws so when I got locked I'm thinking at worst case scenario I'm going to get a robbery charge

accessory. Right. That's what I'm thinking. Well, I learned in booking and through the legal process that when you rob an establishment, especially in the VA, certain states, there is no accessory law. And like you said, you might as well be in there with them. And then not only that, you don't get a robbery for the building. You get a robbery charge for each individual. So six individuals in the dwelling, six robbery charges, six conspiracies, six gun charges. As a driver, six robbery charges means I was facing five to life six times off the rip, six multiple life sentences, conspiracies carried 10, and gun charges. First one was mandatory three.

Each one after that was an additional five out the gate. Yeah. For some BB guns. For sitting in a car with a BB gun. And these guys got BB guns. Yeah. Nobody was physically touched, literally BB gun, driver, never went in the phone. place. Yeah. Didn't, didn't take my out. What's your, what's the lawyer saying? Like,

are you telling a lawyer like, hey, did they offer a plea? Should we go to him with the plea? Like, what's he saying? I don't know. I don't know to ask these things. In my family, they've never been involved with the, with the legal system. So I'm literally, I'm listening to what he says, and I'm kind of waiting for him to provide some good news. Instead of being, now you put me in that situation. I'm, I'm going to be, I'm going to be my lawyer. Right. But this guy was unequipped or ill-prepared or he didn't care. I was another number. He wasn't getting no real money from my case.

He's getting paid through the court. So our conversation was minimal. He'd come in for like five-minute meetings at the jail. And there was a part of me. I didn't want him to talk too much anyways because that shit was scary. You're telling me what I'm facing. And I kept asking him just in reality, like, am I coming home? He was talking about, man, you'll probably get first-time offender program, be home by your 21, stuff.

like that. I'm like, cool. Yeah, yeah, that's not bad. I could program out. Go to court. He speeds up. My trial doesn't tell me. And they pull me out into the bullpen one morning, shackle me up, get me, get me to the courthouse. And he comes in, he's like, you ready? I'm like, what do you mean? I wasn't supposed to have court for another, you know, month. He's like, oh, they didn't tell you. I was like, you're my lawyer. Yeah, you're responsible to get me informed. He's like, the Jail's supposed to tell you and all this. I was like... Jail ain't supposed to tell you nothing.

Yeah. When he's talking to me, in almost fluid motion in conversation, he says, yeah, but anyways, they say they can get, the best I can do is get you 35 to 54 years to do. And he says it just like that.

It rolls out. There's no hesitation. There's no, hey, sit down. There's no, hey, this is real. There's no... Hey, the best I can do is get you 35 to 54 years to do. and I mean I thank God I had enough courage to say hell no I said I can't do that that's all I could say I wasn't shot but I know now if I did not say that he would have marched me out there and led me to slaughter I'd still be in prison right now right when I said because because you went to trial you you kept all your appeals rights and everything else is that it I didn't go to trial oh you didn't go to trial okay he's because here's the thing if you were shown on you showing up for court that wasn't trial to plea out in front the judge if i go in here's the thing

i did know this if i go in front of a jury there would be no appeal on it once they sentence you that's it you're locked into that time for the most unless you can just outright if i go in front in front the judge it gives me an opportunity you know to make it out this thing alive i did know that the next best thing you can get outside of a please basically throwing you yourself to the mercy of the judge and saying, I fucked up. And anyways, when the lawyer, he told me the public defenders, like 35 to 54 years is best. I say, no, I can't do that. He literally looks at me.

He says, well, I'm going to go back out here and give you a minute. You just tell me what I should say. I'm a 19-year-old kid, man. I'm about to lose my life. You're telling me, tell me what you should say. You're supposed to be my guidance, you know? And he walked out and as a 19 year old kid, I had to try to figure out in like a minute flat how much time I could offer to the courts and the prosecutors to make them happy and how much time I think I could get through with my prison sentence in order to live again. And I was watching people my age, kids, young, whatever, go in for robbery charge, end up with life sentences.

Oh, yeah. So I just, I went to, I told when he came back in, I said, man, I just want to be home before I'm 40. that's a crazy statement right yeah yeah i told him i just want to be home before i'm 40 and that was it now my partners they tell a joke they're like maybe you should have told him you want to be home before you're 30 um but he was like okay he's like but they can sentence you however they want we're just going to tell them what you're asking for and i'm gonna he's like i'm gonna tell him you hold yourself accountable and all this because by that time they had already knew everything it was going on.

Yeah. There's nothing for me to discuss. So walk out there. Mom gets on the stand. She's the only one with me. Everybody's gone by this point. She gets up there. She speaks to my character.

I get up there. I speak to my military experience. I had never got in trouble before. Come back off there. And the judge starts going into a speech. And again, keep in mind. Driver, BB gun. First time offender, nobody physically.

And he starts going in his speech and he's like, yo, you brought your big city ways to our small town, your menace society. And I'm sitting there. And I start to go numb in my hearing. Like my eyes are open. I'm watching it. But I'm like, I know this is, I know it's over with it. I should have took the 35 and tried to fight my way out of that. But there's no parole in VA. So I got to take the gamble. He starts shooting off numbers. And he's just shooting. He just, I mean, I had numerous. felonies. And there was a part where I think I feel like I kind of blanked out my legs got weak because he had got past the hundred. I'm tallying the numbers in my head, but I'm not paying attention to everything he's saying. I'm just hearing 20, 25, you know, I'm hearing it's 10. I'm not hearing a suspended part. But I do hear, you hear by sentenced in the Commonwealth of Virginia to 144 years in prison, blanked out. He did say, all suspended but 19. So I got 144 years, all suspended but 19 at the age of 19.

So I had 19 years to do in the Commonwealth of Virginia. But I say 144 because you still got probation after that indefinite. Oh, it can go wrong. Yeah, 50. You can end up with the, you can end up. Like people don't realize like, oh, I could still do the buck 40. Right now. Off probation, passport, getting ready to travel, all that.

if I get out here and I argue with somebody and cops get called it looks the wrong way or yeah they can definitely hit me with all that so that's why yeah yeah your buddy's got a gun on if you get pulled over the car gets searched he tucks the gun under the fucking passenger seat and then doesn't accept it says oh it's not my car just like that you're going back just like that for the rest of my life yeah so um he shoots off the numbers and he walks back with me to the bullpen or, you know, the room back there. I looked at my mom like one last time walking back there. I mean, what are you thinking?

Are you still thinking 144? I couldn't feel any. I couldn't really think at the time. That's what I was thinking, 144. But outside of that, my judge or the attorney, he's telling me, he's like, yo, you got 19. He's trying to explain to me, you can get out in your 30s. I'm not hearing that.

I'm so locked in on the 144. By the time we get back there, he finally, he sits down. He's like, yo, before you, they fucking move you back to the jail. This is the breakdown. And he was like, you can get back in court. He's sending, you know, he's selling me all these points and we're going to do a have and all that. And driving back to the jail, that was my time to finally process. That was the noise got quiet for me.

I was the only one on a van. And I was numb, but then I started to identify the fact. that this is the worst I got. Like it's over. I'm not running. I don't have to guess about how much time I'm going to be facing. I got 19. I can get home before I'm 40. Now I'm telling myself they might change the law, whatever. I got a shot. And that was it. Get back to the jail. Walk into the pod. Everybody had been waiting to see how I was going to get sentenced. And I told everybody, I was like, y'all, I got 19. And for as hard as it is, for some people to understand, those guys were, they were celebrating for me. And I didn't even get it at the time.

But a lot of those brothers were getting ready to go down the road forever, you know, 40, 50, 60 years and plus. So, yeah. Yeah, I've seen great acts of compassion from inmates. Oh, yeah, yeah. So, I mean, so you're not, I mean, are you like acceptant of the fact that, you know, this is what you're going to do? You're not thinking, okay, I'm going to appeal. I'm going to, you're just thinking, fuck it. I'm just going to go and do my time.

I tried to appeal. It was two things going on, right? So I did try to appeal. I tried to get back like on a Habe. Right. Because you had a certain amount of time or a sentence reconsideration. I forgot with the exact motion that I filed or had one of a jailhouse lawyers filed for me. But after that first rejection, I kind of just fell into the mode of I'm going to end up doing this time.

And then that combined with the fact I had started to get good at jail. Right. So I had been there for about eight, nine. months now. You know, I got it doing the trades in the pod, had a little clout with the COs because I could communicate with everybody. I was cool with the fellas. I'd fight, you know, but it was more about I had to respect, you know, so the urgency to get out of prison or jail, I started to become numb and I was conditioned to that environment. So I didn't desire my freedom as much as I probably should have in that moment. I was like, man, I'm just going to settle in. Yeah. And you've already got

a little bit in, a little bit of time. How long before you, I mean, you're processed and categorized, well, I don't know what they call it in the state, but, you know, before they're basically determined where they're going to send you. Yeah. Like that's kind of how they do it, right, in the state. Don't they do they send you to a receiving station or something or a processing station? Yeah, from jail, after sentencing because of my case, I ended up getting to a couple of fights, regular jailhouse stuff. But they put me in a hole, two-man escort, which means you've got to have two officers with you, everywhere you go on the facility. You're cuffed at all times to the shower or whatever.

And at that point, they kind of rushed my move down the road. And probably in about a month time, month and a half, I was on my way to receiving, like you said. And receiving was about two weeks. Receiving in Virginia, if anybody, it's just classification. That's where they look at your charge. That's right now. Yeah, same thing, though. But they just look at your charges, your history, what you were doing in a jail, if you're fighting, taking programs, all that.

Yeah, but sure suck. You've been in fights. Man, you got two guns. I'll tell you. It's armed robbery. Yeah. Like, those are horrible charges. Like, you're not going to a camp.

Yeah, and then I had a gang card on me because I'm from Chicago. And then I was getting the guys that were from out of town, you know, at jail. We were kind of clicking up. Not doing nothing too crazy. We just clicked up. And there's all this is in my file. Get to receive. even were in there.

And I remember the day came where they were designating everybody at their security levels, what prisons they were going to. And I was cool with everybody down the road coming from receiving. They started giving out everybody's numbers, though. And they had us all standing kind of like where the dog,

I call them the dog kennels, but the wreck area where we're at. And everybody, Smith, level one, Harris, level two, blah, blah, blah. And they get to me, they're like, will it is you going to a four? Again, I don't really know what none of this means. Some of them guys had already been down the road and received me.

And I kid you, I never seen none like this after this part of my bid. When the counselor said I was going to a level four, those guys physically started separating themselves from me. And not because I'm not no, you know, but it's just they automatically, I was like, oh shit, they're looking at me crazy. And the counselor's even talking to be different, like trying to get me prepared in a different way for where I'm going. versus them. Right. And I'm like, oh shit. And, man, about three, four days after that, I was on the bus.

And I got sent straight to Sussex II, level four, maximum security prison, 70% if not more lifers. And, yeah. What was that first day like? Man, first day, get off the bus. They bring you into a room. I don't know if they still do it. It's basically a change out sell. And they bring out a camera on you.

You're getting naked and they're getting pictures of your tattoos and they're asking you questions and they're talking shit. They're doing whatever they're doing. You get past that portion after they tell you squat and cough, all the traumatizing stuff. You go to the barbershop, they shave your head down. Because at the time, you couldn't even have facial hair. You could have a mustache and think like an inch and a quarter of hair

or something like that. It's changed now. And they give you your laundry. There's no real prep, no orientation, no conversation. They lined us up. And I remember when they opened the door, it's like July. And we're inside. When they opened the door, it was like the Coliseum.

It felt like the sun just hit hard. It was hot. We're walking down the boulevard. The rec yards separated. You know, it's like yards inside of yards, concrete and steel. Guys are yelling. Everybody's outside. And it's just, it's hell on earth.

And I know it. I know it. And finally getting the building. they tell you what pods you're going to. I walk up to my pod. I stop at the office, which is in the front of the dorm or whatever, the pod. I tell the CEO, I'm like, yo, I'm such and such, you know, they told me to come here. And he's like, yeah, just go to room or go to cell 10.

I've never been to prison. I don't know. All these dudes, they look like they set up shopping here. They got different clothes. It looks different when you're coming from jail to prison. It's a different world. And he doesn't walk with me, nothing. And I, you know, so I'm like, what?

I take my bag down. I walk down there, cell door opens up, look in there. That shit's decked out for a cell. I'm like, what the hell? But nobody's in there, you know? I'm like, what fuck's going on, you know? And now all of a sudden, O'Head comes over. He's like, hey, young blood.

He's like, you want to sell with me? And I was like, I guess. He's like, don't worry, you good. But remind, you know, I'm paranoid. I don't know what the hell going on. I don't know anybody at this. prison. The old heads that were at jail, they told me, like, be careful who you talk to at first. You know, their motive, you don't, you know, don't take nothing. They gave me basic rules.

When he came over, he was like, oh, it's locked now. We got to go in anyways. Went in, it's locked down. And, you know, that awkward moment, that realization, like, this is where you're going to live. Even at jail, like, you're going to leave jail. But this is where you're going to be right here. Like, you got sentenced. And immediately that first cell break or first countdown or count time, excuse me, he just started giving me the game. He was just like, look, you seem like a good dude. I've been down for at the time, 24 years. Yeah, he'd been down for 24 and wasn't going home. And luckily, he was one of them old heads. He was, like, in a religious community. He was, you know, one of them guys. Kind of at peace with it. Yeah, yeah, worked in the kitchen. He had just

trying to write out the clock. Yeah, he was into what he was into. He was respected as always, but he had got older. He was in his 50s now. Right. You know, but, um, he told me he was like man he's like the only way you make it off this thing alive is if you listen what i say he's like i'm not trying to tell you what to do you're man and he talked to me with respect i didn't get no ill vibes so i listened i sat down on the box where i was putting my stuff i said man just tell me what i need to know and like the first sentence or two in he started reaching underneath the lip of the toilet and grabbed out a blade he was a knife maker in the pod and he didn't grab it and aggressed like he grabbed the blade first but he's like here he's like you're

going to need this. And I was like, that's how I was looking. I was like, no. Because at the jail, you fight. I didn't see a blade. I didn't, you know, but an hour in, he's passing me a stick. He's like, yo, you're going to need this. Not only is he giving it to me, now he's telling me, oh, when you walk through here, this is how you need to hold it. He's giving me the full gambit on everything. So, you know, over the next couple of days, we would, you know, we're in a cell, playing chess, whatever. He's schooling me. me, I'd pull my box out and sit in front the, or on the wall by the cell, because I don't know anybody and just watch the pod. You know, guy would come, try a shit, you know, go on,

bro, I'm good, you know. Try, what do you mean? Just trying to feel me out, figure me out. In VA, they don't run paperwork like that. Some systems, you come in, the block, they're running paperwork. Right. VA wasn't like that. It was more when people were, they're trying to see who you know, who you connected to what you got, what they can, you know. So when I say pull up, It was like that. Yeah, you had your booty bandits too, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, you had them guys. But I was cool.

I was stiff on them. I'm good, bro, good, good, good. And probably like, man, I don't know, maybe a week and a half in. I'm sitting there and a group of young dudes come up from one of the cities, Richmond, out there. And I'm sitting on my box out the way back against the wall, just watching the pod, reading a book, not bothering anybody. And they come over there fucking with me. And they're just talking shit. And I'm still that angry guy.

I don't want no problems, but I'll fight, you know. And then I'm remembering what the old heads told me. Like, if you don't fight, you're going to become a victim. But there's five of them. Right. And they're talking shit. And you know how people try to joke you and get their thing off without being direct about it. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. They're kind of mocking you and fucking with you. But not so much that you have to do something. It's just they're seeing how far they can push you before you will do something. There you go. But it's super disrespect. either way. It's like, how much am I going to let them disrespect me? Yeah, we don't know. We don't know each other. I don't know you enough to be joking. You're making a spectacle in front of your homeboys. And no other thing I could think of just in case was stand up. I stood up simply because it was five of them. They're joking. I don't know what they're on. The minute I stepped on, they started swinging. They were firing off. But it's funny because they couldn't get their thing off. They were hitting each other. It was too many of them, you know. I got a little lumped up.

But immediately when things like that pop off on Sussex, the COs, they let off a shot. Because where I'm at, the COs, they got shotguns. There's blanks and rubber bullets or whatever. But once that first shot goes, unless it's serious like that, everything stops. Everybody hits the floor. So at first they let that shot off. One of the dudes got back up, like he was going to fight me. I got back up.

By the time the COs came in, they sprayed us. you know with mace pepper spray or whatever right they pulled me in pulled me in a medical had you know clean me up or whatever and the investigator comes in me he's like we got to get you up out here he said you last three weeks or whatever was time to go he said I don't know what you into but you got to go I said I can't just like that because the old head told me he said whatever you do don't check in and don't get moved on nowhere shit because it's going to follow you everywhere and immediately I knew with them pulling me out the pod because something the incident that had occurred in the pod like a week earlier with another guy, a bone got put on him.

And I looked at the investigator. What's a bone? A bone is basically where the guys in the institution are saying he's telling or, yeah, he gave up information that got other people in trouble or whatnot. And that's going to follow you everywhere. You're going to have a problem everywhere you go. Most definitely, especially if you're doing time like that. Like, you're going to be on high levels for a minute and you don't want that reputation.

And I looked at him. I said, man, I'm good. Like, you could just put me back. I don't have to get transferred. He looked at me, he was like, all right. He said, but you got to sign a waiver that says if anything happens to you. Is it a strong man agreement? That's where they, in the feds, they call it a strong man.

Some shit. That's what the inmates call it. Yeah, maybe. I just know they weren't going to be at fault if it went haywire. Right. Yeah, they're notified. You got a threat against you. They tried to physically harm you.

And in my mind, I'm going back to the dorm. I got pulled out or back to the pod. They must have got pulled out too. I'm good. No. I come back to the pod. Three of the guys are still there. And I go to the big, like, my cell partner was to eat at my stuff. And he comes with me. He's like, yo, let's talk to the big dog from Richmond. Because he was like, what are you going to do? When I walked back in, he was like, I was like, man, I got to do something. Like, I got to fight him or something. He's like, man, they're going to kill you. I said, well, I don't want to fight all of them at the same time. Why can't I just, you know, he says, let me see. Why are they targeting you? They started targeting me simply because I was from out of state. Oh.

Yeah, I'm from Chicago. I'm in Virginia system. And that was it. It was just some fucking some assholes. Right. You know, and you got plenty of them in the system. Yeah. And we went to the big dogs with the old head, some other out of town or some people from other cities in there.

They kind of rally behind me because they were like, nah, that's fucked up. They jumped young in. He wasn't bothering nobody. And they set it up. You know, the old head set it up. where I was able to fight them, you know, fight over the next two days, those guys, one-on-one in the cell. And two of the old heads that were on my side, essentially, stood outside the cell, and a couple of their guys, some Richmond sat outside the cell, and we got our thing off,

and no, I did not win everyone. Right. But I got my respect. Yeah. How long did you stay in that institution? That time, I was on that institution, going on that time, like three years. the first three years I was on there heavy. Is your mom coming to see you or does anybody come to see you? At first. I'm assuming your cousin's not. No, my cousin's unable. How much time did he get?

Yeah, so just not him. My cousin ended up getting like 98 years. Suspended? Is a portion of it suspended? No. No, because he's still out there. He robbed one place. He's robbing's other multiple places.

Yeah, it's compound. That's what he was trying to get you involved. all of them saying you were a part of all of them yeah well at least some of them and the other guys were too so my other co-defendants he got 98 my other co-defendants got uh one got 34 one got 29 um but those two they still got separate charges in other states okay yeah so as far as visits it was just my mom at first but i remember like the first couple of visits her coming up there seeing me lumped up bruised or just going through the process she was like she looked at me one day she's like I can't do this anymore right like it's it's fucking me up like they had pulled her to

the side and ran the dog around her and that shit is traumatized you never been in the system or going through that it's traumatizing yeah yeah so that was the extent yeah everybody I know says you know coming in you know they treat you like you're a criminal just because you're coming to see you're coming to see some guys that are locked out doesn't mean I've done anything wrong but they talk to you like you're a dog yeah that's just how the the COs talk to you I don't know how it is in you know level four you know I know what a media and Alois in the federal system. But even then, they talked to, they talked to your family, like they're a scumbag.

Yeah, they dog them. They dog them for sure. So, yeah, that was my introduction to penitentiary, straight to level four, straight into the shit. But that was, in some messed up way, that was like the perfect prison I should have went to anyways. If I'm going to be here, I might as well go to the university. And that was one of the worst prisons in the state. So, you know. It's all cake from here.

It's all uphill. Should be. Yeah, it should be. Right. Yeah. Eventually, you know, going through some shit like that up there, stayed out of trouble long enough after a while. I've been up there for like three years. Finally stayed clear and got sent to a level two all the way back down to a low level. And I was like, all right, let's go. And I lasted probably like four months there before I got sent all the way back to Sussex, too, again for a second time. Why? What happened there at the hustling? Getting in, getting in, had a buddy of mine that I did know from the street. Ended up doing some time on the same camp I was at. He was getting a pack-in and we were, you know, we were doing our thing. What's a pack-in? What is that? Just work, just some marijuana, some tree. Yeah. Some marijuana or some weed. Just stuff contraband or whatever. Some oil, you know, in our mind, shit, it wouldn't get us in too much trouble. Right. You know, I guess.

It's not going to get you new charges, but it's going to get you. you some good time taking away and maybe you shipped. Yeah. So everything was good. We were making moves, getting money, all that. And then he introduced one of his homeboys into the car with us or to get money with us. And he ended up getting caught on some shit and just folded. And that led to us going to the hole and being put under investigation and being sent from a level two back to a four.

I ended up doing a year and a half straight or over, excuse me, over a year straight in solitary confinement, being transferred. from a two to a four until they finally put me back in the population. This is going to sound random, but do they have air conditioning? Some camps. Okay. You keep saying camps, but these are prisons, right? Some of them are prisons, some of them are camps. What's the difference?

Well, like Sussex 2, anything, basically a 4 in Virginia is a prison. A 3 is a correctional facility. A 2 is a correctional facility. But in VA for slang, because level 1 is a road. camps too and level twos are what we consider you know minimum we just call them camps too do they all have fences around them or yeah but it definitely you know you're on sussex you're on not a way you're on one of these level four level five or whatever it's seven fences yeah five barbed wire you know that you got to climb over but you know lower you get road camp well i mean

that's what i'm thinking like like a camp you're saying road camp but to me as like a federal a camp there's no fence at all oh no no it's in VA no but you get to leave area like Like, when you get to a camp, you leave and you're going to work, you're coming back, but it's still fenced up, one fence. Okay. Yeah. Because like the low, like even the low, you think, oh, it's low. Yeah. But there's two, there's two fences.

There's like six layers of barbed wire. Yeah, still. There's, it's motion sensitive. Yeah. There's a truck drive. There's like two trucks driving around all the time. There's a guard in the towers. Yeah.

Well, there's no, not at a low. There's no tower. But there's trucks and they have shotguns. Like, you're not getting, there's no way you're getting through those. two layers first of all they're motion sensitive so as soon as you grab it you know there's a yeah there's a coil there's a whatever you want to call it a thing with a wire inside of it or whatever however it works as soon as you shake it at all it's going to notify exactly right here yeah and they're coming like you're just not getting through there's just nobody get through yeah um but like the camp

it's funny because you could just walk away from the camp yeah i never i never experienced it i heard though I had a couple buddies who were in the feds. Yeah, I never went to a camp either, but I know enough people that my wife was at a camp. So you go back, you're in the hole, you leave, you come back. I'm back on Sussex, too. Right. Yeah.

Do you see your old buddies? Everybody was like, yeah, man. I'm a little bit more seasoned. Right. I'm in the hole for a little bit before they let me out. The guys here, I'm back on in the camp. And again, I had respect, luckily, you know, But it wasn't again.

It wasn't because I was some silverback gorilla in here knocking people. No, I was just a respectful guy. I was intelligent. So I would help a lot of the brothers paperwork, you know, stuff like that as I got older, writing letter, whatever it was. So I, you know, built these bonds. So when I came back, they were hyped up. Like, they were like, yo, my nickname's life.

They're like, Life's Back. Yo, da-da-da-da. It was just feeding more into that height. I should have been disgruntled and pissed off because I was back on a four, but in this twisted prison mindset, I was happy because I was back up through my brothers and the old head that schooled me. Yeah, I was going to say, it's funny, the longer you get there, the more, you know, you understand what's how things work.

And it's like when I first got locked up, like terrified. Yeah. You know, when I got to, well, you know, I'd been locked up for a year. And then when I went to Coleman, I went to a medium, you know, it's exactly what a prison is. You know, there's two tiers. They're feeding you through the door. They can, you know, there's guys getting riots. There's all kinds of stuff.

So, but I did three years there. And then I was at the low. And when I was at the low, I went back to court. And I remember when I went back to court, you know, I've been locked. By this point, I've been locked up seven years. And I've been transferred multiple times. Yep. You season.

So when I go back, you know, they, take us off the bus, but I'm off the bus with guys that just got arrested. Like, maybe they've been sentenced. I know the feeling, no. I know what you're saying. But they're barely there. Like, so they're getting their stuff. Yeah.

And they're, you see yourself in them when you. Oh, yeah. Well, here's what I saw was they put us in a holding facility because the next day we're all going to get moved again. You know, they'll move you, you know, whatever 200, 200 miles. Right. Leave you here for three days.

The next bus is going, some of you guys are going this way. That's how they do to change over power to. Yeah. Right. And then we're going to cross the country. You know, I'm going from Florida back to Atlanta. It still takes whatever, a week or two. But it's so funny because when they gave us our bedrolls and we're walking, I know they are putting us in an area for low inmates.

You know, we're all designated low. So, and guys are here with me that have just come into the system. Yeah. And as we're walking, the guys, you know, this is 11. o'clock at night by the time we get processed we're being put into our room and we're walking there's guys on the doors as we walk you know it's two tiers we're on the second tier being you know hey johnson here yeah thompson here you know as we're walking but as we're also walking there's probably 12 of us the guys are at the window you know the windows banging on the window bam bam bam put them in here put that one in here I mean they was going crazy they're all go to and it is y'all these guys are panic-stricken and And I'm laughing. They're in shock. And I'm stopped.

Like, as he's letting this one, this guy in, I'm looking at the guy right here. He's like, I want that one. I want that one. And I'm laughing. And the guy looks at me and then he starts laughing. You already know it. And I go, what are you doing? What are you doing?

Like that he's like, that one. You know, these guys are, huh. I go, bro, we're in a fucking low. They insist them shot. Yeah, it's not that. They're in a low. They're not. That door opens.

He ain't going to do nothing. He's going home. Oh my God. Oh my God. You know, so they're opening up. We used to fuck with them to know. Oh, yeah. But the next day where they pop the doors, we all go out, we all stand there.

We get our little tray. We sit down. Let them know. Yeah. Just like, yeah. These guys are terrified the whole night. I'm like, you're fine. It's part of the fun of it, though, after a while, though.

I mean, not that I wanted to see somebody in prison, but, you know. But think about it, after you've been locked up seven years. Yeah. You know it's cop. You know, you're like, stop it. You know what's going on. They're fucking with you. Yeah.

Stop. Stop looking so fucking scared. Stop. You're locked up. you're okay it's okay man yeah I said this yes

I think yesterday where I always joke around with guys that are like what's the difference between going to the medium and going to the low and I was like simplest explanation is

you go to the medium and you walk in your cell and someone stuck a snickers bar on your pillow don't touch it and I go you go to the low someone put a snickers bar

on your you can eat it yeah they might leave a cup of coffee for you to a shot of coffee for you up there or something you can be all right different. I enjoyed my time when I finally made. It just took me a while. Right. But yeah, I'm back on Sussex. And I remember this time, I had, what you was just talking about, I had got comfortable. You know, I'm back on the compound. It's round two. The shock's not there. I know what this is. I've been in one building, four building, been on the yard.

And you know everybody now, right? You got to know still half. If you said 70% are lifers, even if they're moving down, I don't know if they do at that point. You know at least 50% of the guys. Easily. Because prior to me leaving the compound, like after the first two, I got the job as an inmate advisor. Oh, so you have to talk to everybody. I'm walking around defending their, you know, if they catch an institutional charge.

And, you know, I had that job. So got in trouble back up here. at this time they separated the camp they put all the lifers in one building no excuse me three and four building and they moved everybody was non-life 25 and less whatever and 10 and less and I was putting a building with 20 and less and it was still kind of mixed and the second time around I was happy I ended up getting put in the cell of my buddy anthony and I was good to go I was back in my bid I had a job in the kitchen me and him worked in the trade room we were locked in we kind of had a routine with the cell. You know, he'd have it a couple hours. I'd be out and it's good to go. And he was

getting short on his time. And that was the first time in my bid, I had seen somebody getting ready to go home from Sussex where I was at. Hadn't seen anybody getting ready to go home. And I always tell this part, because it's kind of like where my mindset shifted with prison. My buddy, you know, we're working in addition to me and Tony, and he's got 10 days left. And they're getting ready to move them to the base, like the reentering pod, reentry pod. And I remember him telling me that last time we're washing dishes, you know how it is, if you ever had a kitchen job, you're busting dishes, you're talking trash, we're in there 12 hours a day by ourselves.

We're bidding, we're rapping, you know, singing songs or whatever. And the last shift he worked with me before they moved him, he had already packed this stuff during the day. And he's like, bro, I'm going to miss you. He's like, man, I just got to make it out the door. I said, why you say it like that? He's like, I don't know, man. He's like, it's not over till it's over.

I'm like, I say, bro, you're about to go home, bro. You're tripping. Like, go over there and we'll see you like, call me or let me call you. Give me your number. Let me call you when you go home. And, man, he moved them. That was the last day he worked in the kitchen because, you know, they end your job. You're about to go home.

And Saturday, like the same week Saturday, getting ready to go to wreck. And they locked the whole camp down, the whole prison down. And when they, some of us, some of the pods were already out. Some of us weren't. We were on our way out into the rec yard. We had made it onto the small yard. By the time I made it on to the small yard, they were moving us back out. All the COs, everybody was rushing to the yard.

It was right across from us. Each pod was isolated or segregated into a fenced-in portion of the yard. And what happened was, and I didn't know it was my homeboy, you know, until, you know, towards the end of us getting back into the building. Tony had owed a couple people money. Nothing too major. One guy in specific owed him a TV. The TVs at the time were five inches, five-inch magnivox. But a five-inch magnivox color TV is the prize possession in prison.

And I don't know why the debt. I don't know the reason. I don't remember him really being in anything. But he had promised this guy, his TV. And maybe he had took some money for it. I don't know. Maybe he sold it to him on the way out. At the last second, for whatever reason,

not for whatever reason, his cousin ended up getting transferred there. And he decided to give the TV to his cousin instead of an individual he promised it to. Right. In prison, that's a no-no. Yeah, that's a problem. That's a problem.

The other issue or the other, mistake that my friend made that day. He went to the rec yard. He was two days out at this time from going home. So it was a Saturday. He was supposed to go home Monday. And essentially, one of the guards, crooked guards up there, let him on the yard. Some guys that had owed him money weren't in the dorm with him, let him on. And the guy that he owed the TV to and about three other guys, they jumped them. And this is the part I understand because Brother Anthony had people 20 yards. He had people with him that could have did anything. He stopped, you know, grabbed them, you know, did anything, you know. And they, this is the story got back. They beat him the first time. And he got up. And if you know, if you ever seen somebody get knocked out on their feet, but still be walking around, like, you know, they're not coherent. Yeah, they're wobbling. They got rocked. Yeah. They're punched drunk. Right. And they fucked them up pretty bad. And, and, you know, they're not coherent. At that point, he started following him, but he's not really knowing what's going on.

He's literally asking him, why did y'all jump me? He's not even registering the reason at the time as we're getting the story. And the guy that he owed the TV till he told him, he said, man, stop following me. He told him once, told him twice. Brother Anthony, punched drunk, was following him. The guy turned around, hit him twice with a blade. Brother Anthony went to the fence, took a knee. crouched. The only reason they knew he was out there, because you got to keep in mind,

one of the guards let those other guys on. The main reason they knew they was out there is because they started calling him for visitation. Another CO came out and they were checking the yard to look for him. They couldn't see him. They walked the fence. They seen him. They tapped the fence and he fell over. And was they rushing us back in? We can't identify who's getting put on the stretch or all that. And they're trying to tell it, you know, He was like, oh, he's all right. He's just being brought. Now we're getting aware that it was Tony.

You know, we're getting where, you know, it travels quick to kitchen workers or whatever. And Pod stayed, prison stayed locked down through rest of Saturday. And then the next day we were hearing because we were locked down still. They were doing an investigation. And by Monday, they had got everybody allegedly or whatever was going to transpire. But Brother Anthony wasn't going home. And this is what I was given. I can't verify this.

But I was told that the family wasn't notified of his release or excuse me that he had deceased until they came up there to the institution on Monday. Saturday when they came to visit them, they just told everybody visitations were stopped. But, you know, I don't know. That's just what was given to me. But that's how they found out. But either way, he lost his life two days before he went home over TV. and that was the first time like I lost one of my own boys or somebody that I was cool with

not the only time but that was the moment I realized what he said was true like basically it's not over till it's over and you know somebody I looked at basically like a brother that lost his life over nothing yeah you always hear a lot of guys will say like don't tell if you're going to leave don't tell anybody you're leaving don't tell nobody you're going to leave don't go to the yard don't do anything extra yeah you know if you can lock down yeah there's nothing it's over with People will get, you know, like, I've seen, I mean, I've seen jealousy, people being jealous. Yeah. But the pettiness and jealousy that I've seen in prison is, you know, extreme.

Yeah. Like it's so, it's not even like slight. It's so overwhelmingly obvious. Yeah. It's excessive. Yeah. And it's on point and it's for a reason. And you can see it with certain people.

Yeah. And looking back, bro should have never been interacting with them or them, you know, and all that for nothing. but that happens in prison. I tell people all the time, people are losing their lives over nothing. Out here, too. Yeah. But in prison, it's a five-inch TV set, phone call, whatever.

I'd have been thrilled to have a five-inch TV set. Like, I mean, that's a... Five-inch, I had a black and white. I had, it called the E-Tron, the egg, and that was golden to me, you know? But it had the radio on the side and shit, yeah. When they got MP3 players at Coleman, Like, well, we got J pay, but I don't, yeah, similar. I mean, well, you know, it was a little shitty.

Yeah, we had to brick J.P.5s and stuff. And, you know, you plug it in and, you know, you can download music. Yeah. You pay whatever $1.50 for, you know, and listen, I had a, you know, over the course three, four years, you got a ton of music. Yeah. And let me tell you, that knocked, I used to tell everybody this knocked about 30% off my sentence. Oh, I used to lock in. My music, my wife, should say, like.

my JP5 went down or my TV, because that was the only way I could escape a lot of times. That and I also also say ice cream. I saw the ice cream is five minutes of freedom. That's what it is. And we had, towards the end, we had food night too. They used to bring in, what was it, Papa Johns or something? That was fucking amazing. I don't know, Papa John, where were you?

TV and Papa John's? Papa John's and TV. What's going on? And video games, too. They had that Xbox enough. Stop. What? Lower levels, low, not Sussex.

You see the videos of guys playing. and football and the pods and basketball. I could see that happens. Concrete and still. Yeah. Yeah. Even the, it's funny, even, I mean, even the, what is it, flag football. Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah, yeah. We had that. Still pretty violent, you know. Yeah, it didn't last, it didn't last at all. They shut the yard down. They're calling an inmate, calling him to R&D, R&D, Johnson, Johnson, and this goes on for like fucking two hours. And then they even come out and they're like, we're going to close the yard.

Johnson, if you don't come. And then they, so then like, whatever, 20 minutes later, they closed the yard. He was supposed to be released. Right. He had, he'd been locked up like 15 years, 20 years, something like excessive. Right. Had nowhere to go. Had never had a job.

Had never. And he just didn't want to leave. He literally was trying to stay on, they closed the yard, they empty out the yard. And he's actually, they actually found him on the yard as they were emptying it out. One of the guards saw him. He said, bro, what are you doing? You can't hear in that buddy? I thought you were going to say something else because I've seen a guy hanging up.

Oh, no. Oh, because he was getting leaving? He made parole. And he killed himself? Well, he hung himself after he made parole and he'd already been down 26 years. We don't, we can't, we don't know any other reason he would have. I've seen in a couple. I've seen guys with five years left.

Yeah, like anyway, that guy wouldn't, he wouldn't, didn't want to leave, didn't know where he was going to go, was terrified to leave he'd gotten used to it and then just like you said the one got your guy he commits suicide because he's terrified to leave it's the adjustment period yeah it's that shock i mean you were did 17 years but i mean i did 13 and and for for six months after i left the halfway house around four o'clock every day yeah i i genuinely kept thinking like i i i had anxiety like i need to be in your in your cell like i need to be counted like i need to you know you have that anxiety the 15, 20 minutes beforehand. And then there was the other thing

is that every periodically, I would get this panicky feeling thinking maybe there'd be a knock at the door. And I was staying in someone's spare room, you know, I was running a rooming house. Yeah. But I hear the door knock and there was that split second where you think you're going to open the door, it's going to be two

marshals or two cops or something and they're going to be like fucked up, bro. You weren't supposed to be released. Right. Yeah. And I'm like, I can't believe you guys figured a thought. I've been waiting. Yeah. Yeah, no, but you see it, though. Yeah, you see, you see things like you, man. And you know, it's crazy.

Like, I knew that was a, when I think that for that split second, I thought, oh, you're fucking nuts. But we're stuck. When we're in prison, you're under that trauma, fight or flight, all that, you're going to have some thoughts coming out. I'm glad I'm not the only one. Sounds familiar. And I wasn't even in, like, yeah, it wasn't, you know, fight or flight for me.

I was in a medium, but even in the medium. Seenfire me. I very quickly, and I would say this is that it was like being a not. non-enemy combatant, you know, in a war zone. Yeah. They're not after me. Yeah. I'm just trying to keep blood off of me.

Nobody's coming for me. Nobody's going to beat me up. Nobody's really, you know, I go to, I teach GED during the day. Yeah. At night, I teach real estate classes. I could see you in the, I could see, well, I don't want to see us there now, but I, I, I can definitely, yeah, I could see you moving like that. And like, like you were saying, you know, you're well spoken, you're educated.

So, and you're, you've got the job, the inmate, whatever, I think they call them, inmate coordinator okay yeah this is the guy that would he did surveys he took tests he coordinated where you were going to get your jobs you know tried to help you with disputes if you had a you'd written a cop out you had a complaint or a shot then he helped try to help advise you yeah um so you know you you become you're kind of elevated in that environment and I was a guy that you know I'm a clean cut educated well-spoken white guy. So I'm basically like Google.

So I'm constantly, guys would stop me. Hey, hey, Cox. You're like, what? And they'd be like, listen, you know, how many states are there? Like, I heard somebody say, you know, the 48 continent in the continent. What does that mean? I'm like, okay, so there's 50 states. I can see that in you as we're talking.

And again, don't want to be back there. But if you've done time, you can kind of see how. Who else you're going to ask? Like, you can't, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. So you can't Google it. Nah, not in there. The guards don't want to talk to you.

They don't do nothing for you. Yeah. Right. Yeah. That was me too, though. And maybe not to the extent, but I ended up becoming what they call the elder or like a senior elder, senior mentor and reentry, you know, had an opportunity to create programs and stuff. But, yeah, I can relate. It was clearly a different environment because, or at least there's a low, remember you said there's no orientation. Yeah. So you do have an orientation in federal prison. You actually go and the guys that are coming in, they'll sometimes they'll wait a month or two. You know, because they don't want to do it for four guys. Oh, yeah, there's like a video, but other than the video they actually have, they'll bring you into this room.

And medical, you know, they'll come in. They kind of, I mean, of course, when you first get to R&D, you see everybody. Right. But this day actually come in and they kind of had a little to talk about what the programs are, that sort of thing. Yeah. But what was so funny is that Boziac and I know a guy, his name is Chris Marrero. And we talk about somebody who's just like not equipped for prison. When he was, there's like 40 guys in there and they're talking about, you know, different things, programs, everything.

And he got there and within four or five days, he goes to orientation. He raises his hand. He says, can I ask a question? They're like, yeah, what's up? And he says, do you have juicers? And they went, excuse me? I know they. And they went, I'm sorry?

And he goes, he's juicers. He's, I'm a big juicer. Like I like to, you know, I like fresh food. No situation awareness. And he said the guy just, you know, I talked to him as soon as he came back. He's like, man, they laughed at me. And I'm like, would you ask, Chris? I asked about if they had juices.

Man. Sounds like a unique guy right there. Oh, my God. Listen, you want to talk hours. Yeah. Hours of entertainment. Yeah. I mean.

Well, you need those. On a daily basis. You need those guys in there. We would be sitting there. You know, he's like, oh, wait, we'd, ah, nothing. What's going? Ah, it's like an hour and a half before such and such. And he'd go, let's go.

let's go talk to Chris and we just walk in the cell and Bozac would go because we were outside and there you go we saw these they were you know the other planes fly over and they got like there's like a white trail and he go the Kim trails you know they're poisoning us and he'd go into a whole rant for 45 minutes I love those guys in there man and then you guys didn't have TV either so well we had TV rooms okay you have TV room you know but they're watching fishing in yeah yeah yeah If you're not interested, it's like, I don't. You need Chris. Chris is like Netflix in there.

Yeah, yeah, I get it. Jail flicks. No. So what, yeah, we didn't have little TVs. Yeah, you didn't have the five-inch magnivoxes like us, the E-tron's, yeah. So what else is going on? What's the next stage? Man, just next stage, just continue to survive through prison.

You know, a couple more hardships, things that we're facing. And just like anybody faces in prison, losing family members, not able to say goodbye, you know, got sick in there, thought I was going to be really sick, you know, just things like that. You start to get older in prison. You navigate situations. You start to look at things differently. But, you know, I went in at 19 and then, you know, I was 25 and then I was 30. I'm looking in the mirror. I got hair and now I'm bald.

You know, I got grays. I went from little bro to big bro to OG like I'm aging in there you know and um through my entire incarceration time while I'm in prison like I said I was respected not because I was going to run around and bully anybody but helped guys like you said and at the same time I was still with the young brothers or the brothers that were you know they're in a car they're making moves they're hustling these guys are the ones that go to the library I was cool with everybody in prison. And I was on one institution like we were just talking about and the counselors that called me one day to the office out the blue. And they're like, yo, we got a job for you.

This is like towards the end of my bid. And that's when they introduced this position called Senior Elder Mentor like I was talking about. And I was able to go live in reentry. And I still had about four years left. But the dorm they were moving me in, everybody was six months and under. So I went into this dorm with a lot of people that were just coming into the system, getting ready to go back home, guys that had never been to level fours. And my job was to come into this dorm and basically convince guys to go to programming group. And at first, when the counselors called me for that job, I was like, there's no way hell. Because the guys that had that job, they were looked at like police first. Right.

Yeah. You're trying to get us to go to group. You're locked up like us. Who are you? But when I went over there for the interview, because you're looking at, you're looking at, you're looking at. You're working for the staff. You're working for the staff. Yeah.

I'm like, and the whole time, I'm not, you know, inmate advisors one thing, you go to your job, you come back, you're helping guys pay work, convincing guys to go to group every day. It's a whole other situation. You're giving guys, like you said, jobs. That's not looked at favorable from everybody in prison. Some guys will respect you because you got juice or clout. Some guys will look at you like, who are you to be giving me a job

or telling me I got to go to group. The reputation was there for the job. for the job as being police. I didn't even apply for it. The COs and the counselors called me to the reentry dorm interviewed for the position. I seen some of my- You're competent. It's, it's hard. They didn't a lot of competent people. I'm competent, right? And I got the influence with the young ins on the yard. Right. So when I went over that, I walked in for the interview. At first, I was like, fuck, no, I'm not doing this. And before I could get up, the youngans were banging on the glass and reentry. They're like, big bro, come over here. We're going to chill out. We're going

listen and she the counselor's like if you come over here we're moving you in that dorm and everybody was like 25 and younger and gang members yeah wild boy I was going to say it doesn't sound like a dorm I want to be in it isn't because I'm still on at this time on the other side of the camp I'm finally down to like a level two I'm chilling if I go over here it's nothing but fights which is crazy it's re-entry but it's like more tension the anxiety's up which I'm learning about now Once I move into the dorm, everybody's freaking out. And it was going to be a change, but I went over there. I went ahead and took the job, especially because my youngers were like,

yo, come over. And there was some nice looking counselors. And it was going to be a change of environment. And they told me I was going to be working with them and took that job. And that kind of started shifting my mentality all the way to going home, you know, got in there, started grouping, programming. And I started running my dorm, like basically like gang structure. There was bloods, there was Crips, it was Yidi, there was everybody in there, and I had respect

because I was helping the big homies with their cases, you know, I'm X, Y, Z. So when I moved into the dorm and they introduced me, everybody clapped me up and, you know, all that counselors stepped out the way so I could say my little spiel, introduce myself. And I just told the guys, I was like, yo, I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing over here, but I ain't trying to get us in trouble. Just like, that's all I could think to say. a heck of a speaker then everybody laughed like yeah we got you um and over the next couple of days learning the job learning from one of the other elders counselors i started to structure my dorm like i said

like gang hierarchy i took all the the big dogs or big hats from each gang that was in the dorm and i put them in coordinator positions i got their little homies up under them i made sure everybody had jobs made sure we didn't smoke in the you know in the pod to the ceos made their rounds like We really try to govern ourselves. Right. And we became successful in there when they thought we was going to be in there fucking up, killing ourselves and reentry because the other dorms, it was off the chain for short, you know, short timers.

It's crazy. I mean, any special privileges because of being in the dorm? Yeah, yeah. Special, I mean, on paper, one of the things was crazy. They gave me this ID. It was a green ID. And whether it was count time or not, I could hold it up and walk to another dorm. I'm the liaison at the time between the staff and us.

So I got power there. You know, if they got it, if my fellow prisoners in there got an issue, they got to come to me to go to the counselors. That's how it's set up. And it worked because I used to, I come around my notebook. Anybody had an issue. I'd really try to help them. Right. Let's see if we can figure this out before we go any further.

And then I was making things easier for the counselors. So I was getting love on that side too. Right. started off with Folgers. Fulgers coffee out the pot with the counselors. It's golden in there, drinking Keefi every day. And then, you know, just escalated from there to conversations that weren't about the program and I'm jumping on the phone. I can get on the computer here and there. Just, you know, little perks. I get my homeboys hired into certain jobs, move, just stuff you probably shouldn't be able to do. Right. Stuff that right, right, that out here seems trivial.

Very trivial. And there, it's, it's super. important and like coveted if you can do that as a prison in there you might as well be king of the land right there yeah yeah i know my buddy zach when he was at the medium they had a uh i don't know what you call the unit but it was for basically people with had mental issues and of course nobody wants to go in nobody wants to be in there but you would but if you were you they called a mentor yeah so they put a mentor with somebody who had issues like was extremely bipolar or or had schizophrenia or had, you know, whatever. So you're basically taking care of this guy.

He can't function by himself. He won't take showers. He won't clean his room. He won't. So they put you in there. And then they paid you. Yep. Like, wasn't much.

It was like, I want to, I probably got it wrong. It's probably 35 bucks, though. From you have your regular job. Oh, okay. So you might make $80 or $100 a month at your job. Which is like $1,000 in there. Right. And you get extra $35 bucks a month.

Yeah. And, but in Zach, I remember, Zach was like, yeah, but it's the other stuff you get. They got a, they have a, they have a movie room where you can get DVDs. They have, like, they would give you bags of Doritos. Yeah. There were these little things that seemed petty, but it's like, golden. You have a bag of fucking Doritos of, you know, cool ranch Doritos.

Like that's, yeah. That's priceless in there. That's, um, motion this guy I used to know in there, he used to call them exotics. That's exactly. You can't get that on a commentary. We call it exclusive. Yeah, we call it exclusive. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So how did that, so that was your last four years? Yes, for the most part.

Worked that down until they finally shipped me all the way to like a minimal, a minimal security, level one, lowest of the low. My whole bid, they told me I couldn't go, or below a two. Because your co-definant had a BB gun. Because my codiffin had a BB gun. I wasn't able to, yeah, after. You imagine me the counselor looking at this. Well, my God, you're clearly a menaceous society.

You were co-defendant had a BB got. Literally. And you didn't even get out the vehicle. Yeah, yeah. So they finally let me on a level one. And even there, I couldn't go off the camp. I had to stay in there, do the floors. Everybody else could go to work.

But I was still being looked at as like this danger. And what threw me off was I was working in reentry as a mentor elder prior to getting shipped to the minimal. I was working in the process of helping people rehabilitate, go home. You were saying I was qualified to do that, but I was still technically, you know, that much of a minute, so I couldn't go to work release or anything. Right. But level one, not away work center, that was the end of the prison bid. And then it was, I guess, like the last reminder on a way out. I ended up getting to a fight with, I hadn't been in a fight for years and ended up getting a fight with a kid over phone.

He had came and tried to phone check me. He didn't know who I was. and who am I, right? But here comes this young kid. He's probably like 19. Not just like me, but, you know, kind of stocky guy or whatever. And carried himself almost the same way I did when I was his age. And I remember before we getting into it, I was like, this kid's going to fight me.

There's no, I can see it in his eyes. And that was like the last incident out the door. And it was also like the last, if there was any part of me that would even look back towards prison or jail. Not that I was even in that way thinking, but that was it. I was like, man, I'm so fucking sick of this. This is retarded. This is ridiculous. I'm fighting over a phone, you know, and I'm just trying to call my wife. I'm just trying to chill. So that was like the last little hiccup on the way out. And your wife, you got married in jail? Oh, yeah, man. Yeah, I got my, came home in 2020, got married to my wife in 2019, right before.

Where did you mean her? Well, I was in 2017. doing the elder thing, the mentor thing, I was running a nonprofit from inside and it was making some good headway and just needed somebody from the outside to kind of be an advisor or whatnot. And she was supposed to be business, but, you know, she couldn't resist me. No, no, but we start off business because she's intelligent. She was already working with 501C3 stuff like that. But, you know, just interaction, conversation, it just grew into something else. what's you know what's funny is you saying that like oh yeah so i'm running a non-profit like

people have no idea how impossible that is in in prison you you know the little things that like it's that you say yeah you know i was doing this and people are like oh okay he just went online he had something he paid for it with his credit card he ordered this he ordered it like man you have no idea how difficult it is to do any people out here can't open a nonprofit yeah So to do it from inside of a prison. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

But we did it because we weren't getting, we felt like we weren't getting the help we needed. And it just, it created, we fought our way to create a lane to bring in resource. Because we were watching our brothers go home, overdose two days later, you know, be gone. Guys come right back. So we were like, we needed something different. And we just started creating our own programs. Yeah, I was going to say, I mean, I'm sure you saw this. Like I, matter of fact, I mentioned this in the last podcast, where it was,

I was in prison. I would see you guys go home, violate, come back for six months, leave, catch another charge, come back, finish that charge, get out, violate again, get out again. It's like, I'm still here. Yeah, 17 years for me. In, out, in, out. Yeah, four or five times. I was watching guys.

And I was never one of those haters. I would never be like, dang, but at the same time, like, you could have gave me your go because I wasn't coming back. Right. Yeah, I could have took your chance. if you were going to come right back, we could have swapped out. I would see some of the guys were like, you're cool with. Like, you know, but I see how I'm like, I'm like, what the fuck?

They're like, I don't want to hear it, bro. Yeah. I was in the car. And, you know, as you're walking by going to work your job, as you're walking by, just that 40, that. Like, what are you doing here? Yeah. And you get the whole thing within, within 40 feet, you know, and then this happened and they gave me five years.

His voice drifts all. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, what are you doing?

Why? Right. Yeah. Oh, my God. So, okay, so what happens when you get out? Like, I mean, you prepare to, you know? I get out. Well, let me say before I get out, I'm in this camp, this road camp.

It's only two dorms. And about a month before I'm getting ready to go out, it's like December 2019. Everybody's getting sick. Like, guys are having respiratory. issues. They're bedridden fevers, coughing, hacking. Healthy guys I'm working out with or falling out at the count line. And the COs and the institution, they quarantine us, the healthy, and with the sick, because that's what they do in prison. Did you know what was happening? Didn't know it was happening. We were asking. We're like, yo, because we've seen, if you've done time, so you're in prison,

the flu can come through a mess of Canada. Oh, the whole, the whole unit, 150 guys in a unit, all 150 year. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, Fortunately, I've always been a pretty healthy guy. And, you know, medical's always ready to run in there and help you. Of course. They're going to give you the best care. They'll be there right away. Of course.

Yeah, 30 seconds tops. So they get in there. We're asking CEOs coming there like, oh, what's going on? You know, because they're bringing the sick out and bringing them back in. And then they lock us in there. Like, you can't go to child. Can't go to wreck. I'm calling my wife.

I'm like, yo, I just called a guy on the count line. I want to make it home. We're watching. You know, we don't, you know. But that was messing with me on the way out. And then the anxiety of 17 years, 16 years, 11 months, right? And- Two months, why don't you say 18?

I might as well. Well, you wouldn't be specific. I say 13. It was like 12 and 10. Yeah, I might as well, right? But I got locked up February 12, 2003. It's December 2019. I go home January 13th, 2020.

When I got locked up, it was Next Tail Churps. and I don't even think Facebook existed right so wait wait when did you get lock it what was February 12 2003 if it did oh no Facebook wasn't out yet no my space see I didn't I wasn't even nothing no it was 2000 and I want to say 2005 I think no no Facebook I think about 2005 I think somebody told me for at least by the time it was popular enough that almost everybody had heard about yeah but when I got locked up it like I said it was next churps. There were no smartphones. People barely texted. No YouTube. No, YouTube. The internet wasn't even like it was. Well, that I remember. No, no, it wasn't. You're right. Yeah, there was. Last time I

really remember the internet before, that was a dial-up modem when I was actually on there, like AOL. And then that's how much technology shifted over the year. And then I got locked up and it was a 17 year just blank out from society, technology, all that. So I had anxiety when it came to that. Because I'm already knowing I've been gone for almost two decades, and I've got anxiety because I'm married. I'm glad I'm married, you know, but I'm coming home to a wife and a mortgage and responsibilities. And I was talking all in my mind, I'm like, oh, it's not, but the closer I got to my bid, I'm like, y'all, I'm going to have real bills. I got to get a job, the probation officer, people are sick around me, all this. I don't have a massive amount of time to do whatever I want to do.

No, I don't have a massive. Just shranked to nothing. Yeah. And then good support system, but we're not rich. You know, my wife's hard worker, my mother, you know, that's all. We got small family. And I'm not the type of guy to lean on anybody like that. I'm already talking.

I'm like, I'm not going to come sit on the couch. And, you know. Did you walk out? Sorry, because this is crucial. Yeah. Did you walk out with a driver's license? Or did you have to go get your driver's license? Because that's a whole process.

So check this out. So day comes, I finally. go home um bit i got the video up on my social me i'm numb i'm blank in the face like everybody's happy wife cousin uncle mom everybody and we get in the car we're gone first place we go is mcdonalds and then we're on our way to the uh to get our license dm v me too yeah because it's like for us it was like a two hour drive back to my mom's house stopped at McDonald's. That was my first rush or I guess experience with technology. Big old touchscreen menu. My wife had to go to the bathroom. She walked off. My mom's ordering food

up front and I'm just stuck staring at the screen. I don't, I'm touching it because I'm watching people, but I'm not, I don't understand, right? And then we got through that. I remember eating like a, I don't know what it was, a sausage biscuit or something they had and it tastes to like roof crisp, whatever it was. It was delicious that time. And went to the DM or driver's license place or whatever. Walked in there. I was supposed to just take my picture to get my ID.

And they're like, no, go ahead and stand right here. Turn to the left. Take your picture. We'll send your license. We'll give you a temporary and send you a license. So I got my license day one. Nice. I guess.

Yeah. I mean, it was good to have it. I didn't have to worry about trying to get it. Yeah, that's the problem. I've seen guys that literally three months into their bid, they're still trying to get their birth certificate, their social security card, schedule an appointment to go to get.

Then they get it or they get up there. They find out that they owe $400. And they're like, I'm lucky I was locked up so long, like you, that any infractions or anything that I had on my license had fallen off, dropped, and reset.

And I was able to, at Coleman, every six months or something, They have something called the flow bus, it's the Florida, whatever. So if you're getting released to, well, I don't think it matters where you're getting released to. But you can sign up, take a class, get your license run, see if you're eligible, and you can pay. Yeah. And you can get your license.

So I actually walked out with my license. Yeah. VA does a good job. You can't leave without birth certificate, Social Security, and $1,000. They make you save $1,000 out of your paychecks. I thought the Jews were going to say they gave you a thousand dollars. They used to give you just a bus ticket and $25. Gate money.

Yeah, good luck. Yeah. Yeah. Now you got to, yeah, that's crazy. Now you have to have a home plan or halfway house, all that. They do pretty good. I had, I had when I went to do the flow bus, I went in. And although my eyes, I knew my eyes were bad.

Yeah. Like I'm near-sided, far-sided, and that happened while I was in prison. And I had glasses. I never wore them. They gave me a headache, whatever. They gave me the glasses, took like a year or so. But, you know, it's hard. But I went to the flow bus.

And, of course, if you forget your glasses or something and you say, oh, let me go back to the unit, you're not going back to the unit. Like, that's good luck. Yeah. The compound's closed. The guards this. It's been 30 minutes, an hour and a half process to get there. Like, no, you'll get it next time.

I don't have time to get it next time. Yeah. And you're losing your money. So I actually get in there, never having even thought, I'm going to have to take a eye test. And I took the eye test. So I take the eye test and I fail it. The guy's like, so you can't see the line in the middle. And I'm like, kind of.

And he's like, okay, what do you see here? You know, I'm just like fucking, at this point, I'm actually just blatantly trying to read what he's asking me. And he's like, yeah, bro, he's like, you didn't pass. And he's from the street. you know he's a and i was like i said bro i said fuck i said i need my license right and he goes um he sat there and looked at me went all right i said over there she said i'm like he passed me i got my license that love but it's funny because i was so later on that day i was telling somebody who's like hey cox you get you got said yeah yeah and there was a buddy of mine uh um

oh there was a couple of black guys that were there and they go they said uh bro did you get your license? I said, yeah, bro. I said, I failed the test, though, for my eyes. And he they go, they said, how'd you get your license? And I said, bro, I said, I said, oh, no, no. I said, it's cool. I said, it was a white guy. When he said, I failed, I said, yo, bro. I said, come on, man. And he goes, I got you. And they go, oh, you dick. You know, like, you're off the trail, yo, yeah. They're just like, you fucking asshole. I got lucky, but he gave it to me at all. I mean, it was a blessing, but with my license, I remember my wife was like, go ahead, start driving i was like fuck no how how uncomfortable is that like you know process i almost got in like

two three accidents driving just situational awareness i mean i say the speed of things understanding how long it takes to stop making a left hand turn across one lane as the car is coming this way like just learning to judge things and you go you go from a prison van or a bus shackled up not being able to see out the windows in a vehicle to drive and you know down the expressway what about having to figure out like did you get an iphone or Android? Man, I had the iPhone. Oh, you got lucky.

That's easy. No, no. No, I did have Android. My fault. Android at first. We had Android. I had to get rid of that. I had that maybe three months and I was like, yeah, I can't do it.

Same thing with us. We switched over. It's too complicated. Yeah. But I had that like first minute in the truck. Like out, people were already going on my phone up. I think I immediately got on there and made a Facebook page just because I used to always hear people like Facebook and I wanted to get up there and just see the world and look stuff.

up and man I wish I never picked up that phone right away why it was just too much man 17 years of being away from society it's sensory overload yeah that's perfectly said and then no I think that's just the way to say it was just too much it was too much at one time and I was trying to consume it all yeah and I didn't I didn't allow myself to slow down like I should have just you know just kind of eased into things but I had that phone I kind of got sucked in into that world, quick. To me, it was the anxiety of trying to figure it out. You know, I'd have 60 applications.

There's 60 apps open. Yeah. And then I couldn't figure out. I'd get trapped. I get into something and didn't know how to get out. Like it's like, and then anybody you talk to you, you feel like a child. They're like, oh, my wife must have been so. They're like, bro, the little, see the arrow up here?

That's an arrow. It's a little thick. That's an arrow. Yeah, just touch that. Boom. You don't know. Touch that three times. Look, you're back to the screen.

I don't know. And, you know, people, when you say anxiety, like, they don't understand. No. They don't understand. Because all of your communication is coming through that phone for the most part. And then, like I said, for me, I had never. I was not one of those guys that had a phone in there. I had a phone for like two months.

I was too paranoid. I didn't like that feeling. And here you go. So it's technology. And then the other thing I noticed, too, was people's mentalities. Like, I was expecting everybody to just kind of be chill or in my mind. Out here? Yeah.

I really thought it was going to be more easy going, but that was one of the things I noticed right away at McDonald's, DMV, all these places, like everybody was agitated. And it was just a different, I was like, damn, y'all acting like you're locked up. Like, I immediately noticed that where I was at, yeah. So it was technology. It was culture shift to me. It was a bunch of things. Were you, like, real mellow like you are now? No. Or were you more aggressive? More aggressive. Yeah. I mean, everybody would say aggressive to me, but I would, I would. say, I used to say, well, I'm, I'm, um, not aggressive. I'm, you know, insert, I'm assertive. You know, I'd be like, because aggressive to me is angry, but I had multiple people within the first three, four months, multiple people were like, bro, why are you so angry? Yeah. Why are you so aggrat? I'm like, I'm not aggressive.

What do you mean aggressive? I used to say the same thing. It was that, that they were like, I can feel there's like a tension. And I'm not a tough guy. Yeah. But people were like, you know, they were just not, they would, they would realize that pick that up from me. Yeah.

I had issues right away. Did I have to start learning to say thank you and please? It was when I was in prison, like I continue to say, you know, some people are like, yo, I was it. It wasn't that, but I was a big dog in there too. And in that environment, you communicate a certain way for the most, especially because I was on higher levels most of the time. Right. And even with your fellas, you kind of bark in orders. There's a way that you're communicating because you've got to move a certain way.

You'll let me get some Keefe. Right. Let me get some coffee. Yo, give me some sweeteners. You got sweeteners? Let me get some. There you go. Fucking assholes, you know.

Assholes. But if you don't do it, if you don't start behaving that way, you're soft or you're. Yeah. So I'm moving like that for 17 years, essentially. And then I come home. And you can't just turn it off. So now I'm in there talking to my wife. Hey, give me a, give me a, no.

But I'm at the job. got and looked at me what I thought was in a weird way, but it triggered something from prison. Like, there was a couple of close calls, like that first year, year and a half in easy, like my temper could have got me, you know, right back in. And that's why I always talk to people. My mentality was not to come back. I wouldn't, I wasn't thinking about. Workday knows there are two kinds of people in business, backward thinkers and forward thinkers.

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I was outside of that environment. And when I walked out that environment, you know, I tell people I used to play football. It's like two days after practice, you know, you don't got the pads on, you start to feel, feel the hits. And that's what was happening. And every time I realized how jacked up I was, I was causing issues with my wife, loved ones. It was like I was slipping further and further, feeling more hopeless, you know, and just mental health was shot. Not just the anger thing, the depression. Me and my wife were going through tragedies. And I'm talking to the brothers now about preparing yourself for changes that occur in real life.

When you've been locked up, it's kind of day-to-day. It's kind of the same. Anything that's abnormal is kind of, it's almost predictable. Out here or shit, anything can happen. And I wasn't ready for that either. You know, the unpredictability of life, the smallest things like a flat tire would send me. because I hadn't been dealing with it for 17 years. So it was just, when I look back at the video, me coming home, my face, when I look back,

when I'm talking to people now about mental health, I was a totally different human being coming straight home. So you know what's funny about that? What you're describing, like I did have that kind of that, that, you know, that aggression, I guess, whatever you want to call it. But I had a different temperament than you have. you have the same temperament that he has where he's the smallest thing sets him off

you know where he's pissed that was me and to me the flat tire would be and I pull over and I'd get out and I'd be like got a flat tire you know like I would laugh off everything because I'm so thankful to be out here

like somebody cuts me off and I get that split stick of what the and then it's like you go ahead you're good no no you're good that was my fault for driving in my lane I'm there now yeah but that I wish I I would have been there.

Yeah. I just was so thankful just to be out of prison, you know? And, but it's funny because I see that because I mean, he got out. He's agitated at everything, ready to fucking snap. So I was. And I see guys like that. Yeah, I was under pressure, bro. Like, it was crazy.

I had to keep reminding my, you know, just kind of remind myself like, hey, you're, bro, you're supposed to be in prison right now. Like, I'm still, of course, for six months, I'm still waiting for him to realize that I shouldn't have been released. Yeah, you still got that thought. That's what I'm thinking. Which was causing anxiety. I'm sure, but you got, you were on the ball. Most of us aren't that way.

When we come home, we're still under pressure, man. And then you got to think most of us that are going into prison. It's statistics show if we didn't have some form of mental illness, we had it on the way out because of what we endured in there. I would say, well, how have it, I have to say 95% of the guys that go in are like, you know, are psychopaths. Like, say, or so, yeah, or, you know, some kind of antisocial disorder or something. Yeah. But how much time did you have in the halfway house? Because you're getting out to a wife.

You've got somewhere to go. No halfway house. They just didn't have, they just didn't have it? I didn't have to go because I got married. So I had a home. You had somewhere to go. Okay. Yeah, yeah.

We had a home. So it was a blessing. But it was a different weight. Like I said, most guys, in hindsight, going to a halfway house, you get, you're walking back in a society. It's honestly, it's good. Although it sucks Like they're stricter in a halfway house than they are in prison But you step in now

But you have that gradual There you go Thing and almost in a way I hate to even say this because I feel horrible For anybody in a halfway house right now In a way it's it's good Because it's still got that structure They're a little too much of assholes

But they do And they don't seem like they're trying to help Yeah Because everything is just you know Threatening to send you back Threatening to send you back Yeah that's always a dialogue I'm hearing yeah

But you're right. You go there. If you're lucky enough to get a job within a week or two, then you slowly, now you're going to a job, you're coming back. So it is that slow step down to, and every halfway house is different too. Yeah, but like you said, most, some of them. But I think regardless, a step down for me probably would have been a little bit better, just being transparent. I said your wife had to go through that. She had to help you with that step down.

God, she had to be at that buffer. Yeah, and I go on record and we do things together now, and I'm like, my wife should have left me back then because my attitude, my demeanor, you know, I did have a lot of things that guys didn't have coming home from prison. I remember her just screaming at me in the driveway, like, why won't you stop? I'm just depressed with a bottle in my hand, standing out there in the middle of the dark for no reason, you know, just going through it. And then it had got too bad.

It even as a free man after 17 years, I didn't want to be here no more. like it had gotten that dark. So I was the opposite where you had gratitude and I was like, man, I'm tired. And there was no rest because I walked into the pandemic. So I felt like in my mind there was no time to decompress at all. I'm going to say, yeah, now in the pandemic now you've got no, now there's, at least if you could have gotten out, gotten a decent job and had a routine, but you're getting out to a lockdown and no opportunity.

You know, and I got a, I was one, I jumped on the back of a garbage truck. I was one of those guys. I go work wherever. Um, but that's probably the only thing that's running at the time. Yeah. For real, right? They pay well. Shout out to the, to the sanitation workers. But the whole thing that was really, you know, messing with my head was you wait 17 years to come home and you're getting shorter. Your sentence is getting shorter and you're telling yourself subconsciously, I can breathe. I just got to get through this and I can breathe. But man, I came home. There was no chance to breathe. And, While the P.O. was saying, you need to do this, this, and you're supposed to be trying to set up your foundation, the whole world's in shambles. They're in a situation globally that had never been in. Nobody can give direction. So, you know, I'm here looking for guidance and how to get things on track and, you know, maybe get a bit, whatever it is.

And everybody's thinking about how to survive. So I go from prison where everybody's trying to survive. And I'm back in society now where everybody's trying to survive. And people are, you know, the countdown, counts going up with the casualties. And it was a lot on the mental. So, I mean, what are you, what are you doing now? Like, I mean, ultimately, you end up, you know, I don't know, is pulling it together the right? Is that, is that, is that shitty way to say it? I mean, eventually you, you, you acclimated because you're, you're doing stuff now, like you're doing, you're doing well now.

So what are you doing now? Yeah. So, you know, fast forward, and I just want to say it's a mental health piece, anybody that's watching this, no matter how dark it is, you can get out the hole. Right. It's going to be a fight. So for me, the last straw, I sat down, I wrote two letters, and I kind of wrote one to the world and one of my wife. And I was getting ready to get up out of here. Last second, my mother called and didn't want anything particular. She asked me, I came out. remember what it was, but it snapped me back when she told me she loved me. And then I just had made a decision that my wife, you know, seeing that I was hurting her, breaking her down mentally and emotionally and everything else, just like, sit. Like, I can't keep living like this. So then it was just therapy, you know, it was being aggressive with that. It was going for some outside treatment, some things called like neurotherapy, which I like talking to guys about. So a buddy in mind, David, now a buddy of mine, he opened up this place called Inception Mental Health

Fitness Gym. It's in Michigan, Farmington Hills. And I was watching YouTube. I seen something with Charlamina guy and some other rappers or whatever, dealing because he talks about mental health. They went there. They were doing a little blog piece. And one of the guys that went, he was talking about racing thoughts, issues with his stomach, stuff like that. And I was there. I had racing thoughts. I had insomnia. I slept maybe two, three hours straight for months on in, digestive issues, you know, all this, body not well. And I needed something. So basically, in short, you go to this place, Inception Mental Health Fitness Gym. And neuroptherapy is FDA approved. It's non-medicinal. And to simplify it, they stick the suction cups, a couple places to your head. You get in a nice, comfortable chair you lean back they got some soft music playing safe clean environment and as the music's playing you can hear it skip every now and it's like a like a record the needle being moved and what it is every time that's you hear that it's sending a small electrical pulse to your

brain because your body's electricity and water and all that and all it's doing it's telling your brain to reset at this point because certain parts of our brain depending on the environment will stay in fight or flight. It needs that reset. So when I got it, 30 minutes did the reset and it changed my life. You know, I came out that thing, calm thoughts. I've experienced peace of mind. I was able to sleep. It wasn't an end-all be-all, but it was the start, you know, and I recommend it to everybody for sure. Okay. Yeah. And $99 change your life. That's all it is. It's not expensive. So what else? So what are you doing now, though?

Yeah. Through that journey, mental health, through my journey of incarceration, through that journey of being that 19-year-old kid, didn't know the legal system, knowing the situations or the environment of prison, leaving brothers behind. They're still fighting for their freedom. I came home and I just decided I was going to do something with my life, you know, in regards to helping people, communities, my brothers in prison, all that. So first thing I did was that nonprofit, I continue to work outside and started Life Unit 501C3.

And we do pre-entry work, re-entry, and direct intervention. We're just in the news for like the second time, which we're proud of, but we're a global organization now. And basically we try to stop people from going to prison, you know, small group, facilitation, dialogue, certain events, stuff like that. And then for the brothers that are going sisters, we try to get. them on the way home and we just try to put them in you know situations where they're successful we give them a lot of the information we're not taught in there at least where i was at like financial literacy things like that we need and in the intervention piece is because myself and the rest of my team majority of us are either ex-gang members have done life or done 25 years like i got one facilitator

for murder all these things we go into those dark places like whether it's on the west side of of Atlanta, wherever, and we talk to the kids, we talk to the young men. Sometimes we get called into households where parents are getting into it with their kids and try to, you know, help them communicate, but it's just a lot of that work. It's going back into prisons, having PTSD to this day going back in, but lending my voice, you know, as well as a motivational speaker and all that and just pushing the narrative to let people know what prison is and whether you think you can be impacted by it or not, you know, you could wake up and your son could be that 19 year old kid that got in the car, you know, and you could be facing some things with them. So it's that.

And then on the other side, we started a school, me and my wife. We opened up a vocational school back in 2222. We got 100% graduation rate. We've had our fourth graduating class. I got honored for principal a year, about a year and a half ago. Watch that still drag about. Yeah, for me, coming home, you know, from prison, getting a, you know, opening a vocational school of my wife, which was her dream, but I'm a licensed barber. She's a master, cosmetologist instructor. But we do the same thing. A lot of the students, their justice impacted, you know, their father's locked up, spouse, something. And we're just, we're just out here helping people in everything that we do. But everywhere we go, we're just trying to wake them up because it's real, it's life

for death, not for everybody, but more and more getting calls from families and people that never expected to be impacted by prison, whether it's the Caucasian kid in the suburbs, you know, or somebody looks like me in the hood. Like, it's non-discriminate now. And more and more people are asking to be educated, and that's all we do. We're just trying to wake them up and bring resources and tell people, like, you don't have to go to prison. Like, there's no reset. it um yeah it's i interviewed a guy six months ago i remember he said they were standing outside he and a buddy whatever 17 18 i forget he said he and a buddy of his um um were outside of like a seven eleven or something he said this guy pulled up he said the guy was bad news he would come

around every once while we talked to him he's like i mean i knew who he was he's like but we weren't like cool he said the way my buddy was and his buddy was like hey man and the guy was like hey man come here he came over the car talked and he the next thing i know my buddy's like hey bro i'm going with him and he goes all right he said got in the car left i think his buddy's doing like a life sentence or like 40 years right now like they went and rob the place he's like he's like he's like you know he's like he could ask me to get in the car like i could have been sitting in the back seat whatever they did he's like now because we weren't cool he said he didn't ask he's like but i could have gotten that like he's like i like i would have said no if i'd know what they were going to do you don't know he's like

but the truth is you don't know you know I was that kid at the time like I might have gotten in there yeah um yeah things could go bad so quick I mean and I've I've actually said this before and I knew you probably got a hundred of these too I just all always remember this kid who'd never been in trouble black kid living in the projects brothers doing stuff he's like 18 19 years old I think it was 18 I think it was 18 I think when I met him he was 19 in a wheelchair And his brother came home one day and said, hey, this was back when the DEA was doing the reverse stings, where they were, they would go in and they'd say, hey, they'd get a, you know, whatever, a cooperating witness or whatever, not cooperating. Somebody who's cooperating with whatever, snitch, whatever you want to call them. somebody they get that guy to go to somebody and say hey i know where there's a house that's got like

five keys in it or well well yeah in my mind or whatever you're 20 000 in cash whatever it is there's one guy in there he don't even have a gun bro and they convince these got some the guy so that guy turns around so he's got this guy we'll go in with guns we need somebody to drive they go into the house older brother yo little bro I need you he's on the couch

playing fucking whatever Nintendo whatever he's playing yeah all you got to do is drive the car sounds familiar gets in

drives the car he said pulled up stopped they got out of the vehicle and didn't even get to the house so they're on their way to the house when the cop car or cop car

sorry like the undercovers pull up lock up that's a hell of a feeling pull out the guns that they turn around they don't even get in the house turn around and start running they don't run towards the car even they're just right they and they but they've still got their weapons and they get into a gunfight they kill the the brother i don't know if the other guy died i know that this kid got boxed and he jumps out of the car and runs they shoot him blow off his leg that's why he was in the wheelchair when i met him from the knee down he lost one of his legs and he could walk with a eventually he got a like a prosthetic but it takes you know he's in the bop it takes a long time to get that right greatest addict

he got like 35 45 a year or something like that they because they charged him with the murder of the death of his brother even though the DEA is the one that shot him but it happens though yeah and so he you know so he ended up I don't know if he went to trial I don't know what happened you know it's funny my buddy Zach knows more about that then but I do remember he got like the I remember thinking this kid, there's a good chance this kid dies in prison and he'd never been in trouble. And literally five, ten minutes, ten minutes earlier was on the couch, thought he was going to drive the car, knew what they were going to do, but never once put any forethought into, even if it had gone as planned, never put any forethought into how that was going to, how that was going to happen. Just thought I'm doing my brother of favor. You don't want to think about that part.

And I'm not saying he didn't deserve to do something. Yeah, yeah. He deserved some time. He didn't deserve to be charged with his brother's murder. And by the way, those, they don't do that. They don't do that anymore. Oh, they stopped. Oh, they stopped doing it because they went from doing like a hundred one year.

Then it became like 1,500. Then it was like 3,500. Then it was like over the course of the next year. It went up to 4,500. And so many people were going in and trying to say that they were, you know, it was coercion. And a few article, or entrapment. Thank you. Not coercion.

Entrapment. And there was a huge. article in like time or something where they blew the whole thing open and there was one case that was so overwhelmingly egregious where like literally just to get enhancements the the snitch or there's whatever they call them confidential informant right so yeah thank you the CI the CI had convinced this kid who'd never had a job who's like 19 or 20 lives with his parents and they're basically didn't graduate high school has about a fucking 85 IQ told him I need you to bring a gun so I need you to bring a gun he did get a gun he got like a 1920s whatever revolver a musket that didn't work by the way

from his grandfather stole it from his grandma it doesn't fire had that when he showed up he had asked him can you we need to act like we're cops so you need to get a badge so the guy ends up saying at the last minute when he calls me oh I couldn't get a badge in the can Because I couldn't get a ride up to the place you told me to go to get him. Don't worry, I'll bring it. So he brings the badge and the cuffs. So he's got a badge cuff. And this is all for enhancements.

People don't realize, well, why do you want the best? He wants to add an extra four levels on for pretending your law enforcement for this. Anyway, that kid ends up going to trial. It ends up being this huge thing. There's a huge newspaper article about it. And they stop the reverse things. It's back down to doing like 50 or 100 a year. That's good.

I mean, $1,500 is still happening. But it ran for 10 years. $4,500. How many guys? Because you're done. Like, you're done. What am I going to say? I was in the car.

I did go in. I did have a gun. I'm dead to rights. They've got me on a wire. You can plead guilty. You get 10 or 15 years. There's no fight against that. Right.

How many. And how many are still in there? How many families have been impacted? How many guys should have been rehabilitated? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not saying that, you know, there's not bad people.

They're obviously a ton of bad people in prison. You better bet it. But, yeah. Yeah. Like I used to always say, you know, look, it's not that they're like, like, trust me, I don't want these guys living in my neighborhood. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? We're the riffraff in this neighborhood. I like, John, like. I'm the riffraff in mind. They look at me like, they're like, that guy on a riding lawnmowers got tattoos. Listen, there's two sheriff's deputies that live here. We got one too. I like walking out. Yeah.

I take every chance I get to walk out my front door whenever anybody comes in the neighborhood just so they can see who's walking out, the ex-convict. But no. I, what you just said about the enhancements. I was just thinking they just went through that couple kids I'm mentoring. It's still happening in that way. But people got to watch out for the traps, man. If we're not on point, we could walk out the door and if we're not thinking things through, which I know we won't. But people need to understand. It could happen to anybody.

Especially being on, are you still on probation? I finally made it off. I've got one month. One month and a half. I got a month and a half. Congratulations. That's what's up. Thank you.

We'll see. But people, you know, people don't realize, like, they're like, oh, well, you just have to what? Just check in. It's like, no, it's not the checking in. It's that if I get pulled over, they can search my car. If a cop knocked on the door right now, it said, you know what, bro, I, I were driving by here and I, I know you're on probation. I looked it up. I'm going to search your house.

Of course you are. But sure, where do you want me to sit down? Do I need to cuff up? Do I need to? You know, I don't have the same rights that anybody else has. Right. So, and then even when I'm off, you know, I can't have a weapon. So I can't protect myself.

Like I don't want to, I don't want to do anything. I just would like to have a gun. Can you eventually, though, because like in Georgia after five years, oh, so it's federal different for state. Yeah. No matter what. Well, no, somebody sent me an article the other day that said they're now trying to process paperwork saying that felons, convicted felons can get it back.

From the federal level. Yeah, because you got guys running around that had murder, did 25 years for murder. Right. I got a buddy. He's got one on his hip. He carries his paperwork with him everywhere, but he's got it. I mean, you know, I can't vote. Well, you have to go through the process. You have to go through the process of being able to vote again. That's a whole paperwork issue. Yeah. React with me in society. Starting over, yeah. So, yeah. I would, I do think it'd be cool to go back into a prison and give like a speech or something. Do you? Yeah, you're saying, you think it's cool? I mean,

It would be cool. I would think it would like to be able to go in like, hey, I'm leaving here in 45 minutes. So let me, because you might go one day. But let me tell you what happens to me. When I walk in there or when I drive, I'm still driving behind the gate. It's still closing behind me. I'm still walking into it. I can still hear the keys jingle.

They still got to open and lock doors. And when I'm in there, even it's, I'm in my street clothes. I'm leaving in an hour or two. but if I'm just looking through my eyes I can trick myself in thinking I'm in blues again prison blues and anytime I'm in an environment I'm grateful but man I'm triggered

you know it's something and it gets easier over time and when I say trigger I don't want nobody like easy it's just that feeling of uneasiness right and but at the same time it's what allows me to go in there and speak to the brothers right because I settle back in at least for that not we ain't gonna settle too much

but you know it's it is that feeling every time it's good to go back in and you're hoping somebody gets the message and understands they can come home be successful but there are moments where I'm talking to guys and they're looking like me like I'm coming straight home to do what I do yeah yeah and I'm just like y'all have no clue what you're returning home to or what what it is out here well I mean like I said I haven't been I haven't done it you know I'm assuming at some point you sure it is I would like to I'm assuming at some point, because I've spoken with other guys who go and do it. And this one guy said, like, he had to fill out paperwork, had to do a whole bunch of stuff to do that.

It was a whole process. I got invited to USB Atlanta. I heard you mention it. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. It looks like the whole, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I was going to say, when you said the whole PTSD thing, I was going to say that, like, like the prison stories like i don't typically you they're like there are prison youtube prison channels yeah yeah and all they want to talk about is stabbings and this yeah no yeah well i was gonna say like i'll i can hear him it doesn't really bother me like it bothers him like he's like i don't want to hear it i don't want to

listen to it i don't want to hear prison stories i want to hear about this or it yeah it doesn't bother me that much but then again i had a different experience than i think most people had you know, and I also had kind of more of a purpose when I was in there. And I acclimated much quicker than most people because I'm, you know, it's the whole con man mentality. Like, I'm going to make the best of any situation. You can. You had a great attitude. A lot of people are going to buck. They're going to buck the whole time. Yeah. You've seen those guys in the shoe, out of the shoe, in the shoe, arguing with COs. You're not going to win. Yeah. What are you doing? You're slowing up your release date. Yeah. But I'm like, I'm like him.

I can't, to this day, I can't watch. People are tagging me to watch what was the new one that came on that unhand i don't know what are these shows my wife might be watching so i got to walk past it but conversations going back into prisons social media stuff i can do it for that purpose but then i got to get away from it just one of my i guess my process or whatnot yeah i can't stomach that kind of content for yeah not just for for my purpose and trying to you know convince some people not to go that way or you know but just for liege i can't i can't do it. It brings it all right back.

It does. It comes all right back to the surface. It does. Yeah, for me. Yeah. Yeah, man. And you've got your channel.

Yeah. So, yeah, all my, all my social medias are all Christopher Life Willers. Right. My TikTok,

IG, Facebook, and YouTube. What if, can people like donate to the nonprofit? Yeah, I'm a break. So can I just break it down really quick? Yeah.

So people can follow me. If they want to see the storytelling stuff, my journey, how I got 144 years and life after, follow me on TikTok, Christopher Life Willers. Like I said, we're touching people globally with the story, just educating and forming people and not giving them a watered down version of prison and having them think about a lot of things they don't think about. A lot of what we just talked about, like the in-between stuff. So over there, 89,000 supporters of the content, grateful for that.

Same thing on IG, Christopher Life Willers, Facebook, YouTube, different content in different places, all geared, educating, informing. Some people say entertaining, but it's all life or death. It's all real, real lessons, stuff you probably should pay attention to. And then as far as my life unit, like I mentioned, I call it my life unit, but my organization, Life Unit, Inc., you can follow us on IG or just go to the website, the lifeunit.org, my entire staff, We're formally incarcerated or impacted by, and we're out here doing work. And if you want to get involved, we're always looking for people that can step in, lend their voices, you know, and just help change the narrative when it comes to incarceration. And we don't just do direct service with people.

We're actually well involved with the process of policy change and just got some big wins with some other organizations in Virginia. About 8,000 brothers are getting ready to come home and sisters. So we're doing some real work. And other than that, I just want to remind everybody, like, don't count yourself out. You know, even if you've been in prison for 20 years, 25, just keep going, you know, create your own narrative, you know, get to it. Hey, I appreciate you guys watching the channel. Do me a favor, hit the subscribe button, hit the bell so you get notified of videos like this. Also, we're going to leave all of Chris's social media links and the link to the, to his organization in the description box.

So you can just hit the description box, go in there, click. the link go straight there. I really do appreciate you guys watching. Please leave me a comment. Please consider joining my Patreon. Thank you very much. I appreciate. Thank you much. So see you.