Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - Inside Edition Sets Up Master Scammer!

Episode Date: December 3, 2024

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For a limited time at McDonald's, enjoy the tasty breakfast trio. Your choice of chicken or sausage McMuffin or McGrittles with a hash brown and a small iced coffee for $5.00 plus tax. Available until 11 a.m. at participating McDonald's restaurants. Price excludes flavored iced coffee and delivery. Inside edition came to my work and tricked me into going on. Now, I've already been off of probation for two years. This is way behind you. Correct. It's way behind me. I'm now moving on.

on the video, it says, and he's got one last statement for his victims. That's not how that went down. There's two different articles that I saw, and both the video said video unavailable. There was a lot of comments, like, shouldn't have done that. That's so trashy of you guys. That guy did his time. What if he left there himself? So they just took it down.

It's gone. Look at this. It's playing. This guy is really worked up. Time to win some money. He's about to be a contestant. How did you fight it? I lose my job.

I happen to call one of my buddies at the old manager that I used to work for. And he says, hey, listen, he goes, I just got off the phone with Teddy, Teddy, rock him steady. He's up in Ohio. He's got his own telemarketing room advertising vacant undeveloped land. So I said, really? He goes, yeah, you want me three away? I'm in?

I said, yeah, sure. So with this telephone call, I thought this has got to be what I'm supposed to do because the three-way call is if you and I are on the phone and then we three-way in somebody else, if you hang up or I hang up, it disconnects from that third-party person. So Ted's voicemail pops up and Ed hangs the phone up. Well, somehow I'm still connected to. TED's voicemail. So I leave him a message to tell him to call me. So he calls me. So for me, I was like, man, this got to be fate. We're supposed to disconnect the phone. So, um, or maybe it

was just a new feature. It could have been. Maybe. I don't know. But for me, I was like, this has got to be fate. So it takes him about two weeks to convince me to go to Ohio. Did he tell you, like, what's going on or what is, where does his pitch to get you out there? So I was going to go on out there, learn the business and learn what he was doing. And then we were going to make a satellite office back home. So I was only supposed to come there for the first phone call was come there for maybe like a week. Second phone call turned into a month. By time, by time he finally convinced me to go there, I was there for three months.

I was locked in for three months, which was probably so he. knew, can help them get back on the right track. But it was just come on out here. You'll make a killing. Let's, you know, I know you can sell. Just come on out here and help me out. You goes, we got a girl here managing right now. She's just not good. I'll make you a manager immediately. And we'll, we'll just ride this wave. I was like, all right, cool. So I get out there. They're going under. Oh, yeah, they're going. Yeah, they're going under. But he didn't tell me that right away, but I found out shortly after getting her. So I get there. He's like, all right, yeah, here's these people. He's only got like three people, four people, maybe five people

that are actually doing the sales portion of it. And then he's got three or four people that are calling everybody and saying, hey, we notice that you own property. Do you want to sell it? Right. So he's calling people that have vacant land. Yep. And he's convincing them to let these guys sell the vacant land. he's promising them a bunch of money for the land. So he's just the in between. Yeah. So yes and no, because basically what we were is 100% for sale by owner. We were just an advertising company.

Right. We would advertise the property, but we would tell these people that had got, come to find out, they got scammed way back in the 80s on buying this property through, there was some other scam that was going on. So do they think it's going to be developed or basically correct so we call them up and tell them listen you know we can property that's worth like 300 bucks. Hey listen we we think we can get you $80,000. We're going to advertise it for that 180,000. So now that whoa, okay. You see this stuff all the time where it's like it's yeah, it's real property. It's really here. It's really zoned where like you could actually develop it. But there's no access to the property. Correct. There's a road here. There's another property here. There's undeveloped land here, but there's no access to it. Like you'd have to build.

Yeah, you can build on it this much. It'd be worth this much. Of course, you guys have to build the road. Yep. What? Build the road. Yeah, you're in the sewer. You've got to build it to spec.

To, sorry, you have to build it to code for the, for the state code. You got to put in all the drainage, all the electric, all the plumbing, all the, you get all that done. And your property is worth $80,000. You're like, how much does the road cost? Well, that's about $2.5. Right. But none of that stuff was. obviously disclosed because we are it's a for sale by owner we're the advertising firm

what you're going to do is advertise it with us right um and then well once somebody calls us and says hey I have a buyer then what we'll do is we're going to put the two of you guys together right we're not we're not a real estate firm we're and these are all things that we did that we did disclose um so I'm there for about an hour I'm like, okay, this is easy. I pick up the telephone. I think I made, I think by time my third call came, I'm, on that one call, I did more money than their entire room did the previous week.

So, I think it was like $498 is what I told the guy we're going to, that we're going to do your property for. So after, we're going to advertise his. property for $498. So they have to pay us up front to advertise. So it's just very similar to if you wanted to sell your bicycle in the newspaper. What you got to do is you have to advertise it in the newspaper and you got to pay for it. And then hopefully somebody calls you up and you can sell it. Right. So that's what we were doing is just calling them in telling them that we're going to advertise the property. So I charged this gentleman $498. And then it has to

go to the verification process where they actually record it and they say you do know it's not it's not sold we're not a real estate agent all the stuff and i happen to be outside on the front porch with the owner smoking a cigarette and the girl who's doing the verification she comes down and she goes hey he said he's got two properties is that for one or for both i go that's for one then i go back in there oh no actually i charge them 1298 for the first one and then i go back on the phone i said sir i great news 498 for the second property you're so okay perfect so now you know it's like two thousand bucks i you know that i charge a guy and i of course i made a percentage of that i can't can't remember at that time what my percentage was so i was like this this is this is easy

right so now this whole advertising vacant undeveloped land and all that stuff in florida was huge at the time. I hate to interrupt the program, but if you didn't know, my name's Matthew Cox, and I spent 13 years in prison for title theft. And this is how easy title theft is. I can be sitting in a Starbucks with my computer. I can go online, go to public records, get your address, name of the homeowner. I can create a deed, a satisfaction of mortgage.

I can file that satisfaction of mortgage. I can then transfer the name of your home into someone else's name, or I can simply create a driver's license in the true homeowner's name. I can then sell the home or borrow against the home, and I can do all of that online sitting in Starbucks. I can apply for the mortgages online. I can open up the bank accounts online. I can go to the closing online.

I can have all the documents notarized online, and I can have all of the money wired into my bank accounts online. I can then transfer that money out of those accounts to other accounts or maybe I could buy precious metals, I could buy diamonds, and I can have all of that delivered anywhere I want by sitting in Starbucks. That's how easy it is to commit this crime now. And it's happening more and more every single day. If you think that you're not vulnerable, you're dead wrong. Do you know who's a potential victim of this crime? Anybody that owns a house. Anybody that thinks I can't be a victim is just absolutely dead wrong. I'm telling you right now, if you own a piece of property, you are a potential victim. The only way to stop the

crime is to be notified by a monitoring service like Home Title Lock. Home Title Lock monitors your property records, alerts you of any changes, and if you are a victim, they jump in with their team of restoration experts to resolve the issue. You can get a 30-day free trial of their lock protection and a complementary title history report by going to home titlelock.com and using promo code mat 30 or click on the link in the description box. Don't let someone like me catch you off guard. But there's so many regulations here in the state of Florida for telemarking. So the reason why he went to Ohio was because it's unregulated. You just get your DBA and you're in business. right so now basically the the manager is there she's gone i start doing this well then i come

to find out what these guys were doing in florida where they were putting it on their websites but they were advertising the land with the homeowner's name and the phone number so that one i was like these people already paid yeah they're definitely going to pay again so i'd go on everybody else's websites and we would call them and say, hey, you know, you're looking to sell your property. Yep. And if they're said 60,000, you know, I really think maybe we could get you like 80,000 for your property. Like, oh, really? Yeah. Well, it's going to cost you this amount. Oh, okay. Perfect. And they'll just pay again. So, um, so I was there for about two weeks. the owner, him and his wife, they were, like I said, very rocky terms. He decided,

you know what? I'm out of here. And he leaves and goes to Georgia. Because there's another gentleman who is in Georgia that had the same exact business. So what he did was he went down there and he basically took the whole database that he had and he started calling all those people so at this whole time that i'm there in in ohio i'm calling all these people personally me i think that everything i was doing in ohio was legit okay now the owner he now takes the database and he goes down to georgia and starts calling all these people and saying hey listen I got great news got your property sold you got to pay half the closing costs pay that up front blah blah makes this whole spiel but that's not that's not he doesn't have it sold

he does not he's actually working for another company that does the exact same thing that we do so he he was sending out the same contract that we were sending out that states it's just advertising so he was just getting these people to sign it and send it back but charging a lot more money but in his mind and it's not my company right yeah and then for me what my thought process was whatever he's doing that's on him that's got nothing to do with me i'm i'm here and i'm doing this so but you're now running his old company i'm running his old company his wife and i okay so we were we were doing all everything i felt as legitimate possible i mean we we had attorney general complaints that you know they paid the property didn't get sold

you know all these things but every single one of them was answered attorney general said yeah you know what you're perfectly fine you're doing everything okay so in between these times ted comes back home to ohio you know you know could have been for a couple of weeks or you know much whatever it was so him and i were were sitting there one night and we're like man, how can we make some more money? So I'm like, I can't remember if it was his idea or my idea. But we said, VIP. So everybody who has already signed up will call them up and tell them, listen, we got a VIP package that we'll put you on.

And we, instead of them being on the other part of the website and the inventory, they're going to be right on the front page of our website. or our website, all this kind of stuff, which was just a link, basically, to then get to the other page that was on there. So now we're calling all these people. Great news. We've got the VIP package. Things are starting to ramp up. We were telling people that we were doing these seminars,

which he was doing seminars before I got there. And you look at some of his seminars that was doing. There's like three people in the audience. Right. But you couldn't see them. And there were workers that worked for them, a suit that was like six times too, but it just, you could just tell it probably wasn't. But I mean, we're not lying.

We did do a seminar before. Right. Are any of these properties selling? No, I don't think one ever sold ever the whole time. But people pay 400 bucks. But here's the thing that we weren't, we weren't selling property. We were advertising the property. So that's how me and my own.

I was justifying it is like I don't really care if these people's property ever sell because one of the rebuttals were what happened like you know like what what if it doesn't sell well folks it's just like if you advertised your old rusty bicycle that you have in the garage in the newspaper for seven days and it doesn't sell can you call the newspaper back and say I had like my money back because it didn't sell no but you're paying for a 90 advertisement, and if it doesn't sell in those 90 days, we are going to continue to advertise the property until it sells for no extra charge. It doesn't make sense.

That's just, that's just, so basically you're just putting it on my web on the website. There is no 90 days. It's going to stay there until it. But when you're, yes, it doesn't make sense to, to you or to I or, you know, to the, I guess maybe to our type of mind but at the same time when you're pitching it on the telephone it's for a 90 day advertising advertising but if it doesn't sell in those 90 days we'll continue to advertise it for until it sells so it's really unlimited advertising but um so and what's the advertising is just on your website it's just listed

like is there any cost to actually you're not paying google to fucking uh uh to direct people there you're not doing any marketing it's literally a hundred percent on our website and that's it but it's just a website it's just a website that he built and then we would have the girl in the office or somebody there in the office they would go on and they would find the parcel they'd make a description of it and they would put it right on the website so we were doing what we said we were doing because it is being advertised. But most people probably thought it was going to be a lot more advertising than what it was. So illegal, probably not unethical, probably so. So now at this point, I start to go back and forth from Ohio to New York because

I still have my girlfriend there, but then the receptionist, who was 21 years old, 19 years old, her and I, we started to chat a little bit. And I was 23, 24 or something like that, maybe 25. And I think I was like 25. So we started chatting it up. So that really wasn't going that well, but it was going well. but my home life was falling apart at the same time so I come back home um and back to New York and then I would tell them I want to go for like maybe a couple weeks but I'd stay there

back home for like three months then I'd come back make a couple more dollars and I'd go go back and at this whole time I'm still doing everything that I thought was was legit so then I go back home now because now she's going to have the baby my my girlfriend she can have the baby because now she's pregnant again or not again but she's pregnant so I'm going to have another child again um and my plan was to go home hang there for a week wait until um everything I knew everything was okay and then go back and then maybe bring her there possibly maybe um but that was going to be very hard because the receptionist was still there. So I was living two different lives, you know, one in Ohio and then one at home.

How much money are you making? At this point, I was making okay money, maybe, you know, three grand a week. You know, it was, it was okay money. Yeah, it was okay money. That's the $12,000 a month, $12,000 a month in Florida right now is making, that's a ton of money. Yeah, I mean, it wasn't, but then there would be months, there would be weeks where I just didn't care and I'd make $5, $6,000. 700 bucks, but eventually I negotiated that I was getting paid off of the whole room. So the whole room had to make X amount of dollars. I was getting a sell. So I eventually I negotiated a pretty

okay money. And but there would be, you know, I got the big checkitis where last week, you know, I get a real big check. This week, I screw it. I can live off of that plus whatever. So now my son's born, my second son. And when he's born, immediately as soon as I held him, I just looked at his mom and said, yeah, I'm not going back. Just not going to happen. So I decided, well, all right, I'll just start my own room here. So the way it worked is if you paid over the phone, I couldn't get a credit card merchant because I didn't have enough time with the business or anything like that. So I couldn't get a merchant to be able to take credit cards over the phone.

And this is well before Apple pay and, you know, all that kind of stuff and Venmo. So they would give me their routing in account numbers. And I would go to Staples and get the three checks that were there. And I would have to put it, input it, their routing number, their account number. So technically it was still a check. Yeah. And I would go and deposit it into the business bank account. and I would get 15, 20, 30,000 dollars at a time or in a week or something like that and deposit it.

But then what the customers were doing is they were saying, I never wrote that check. And because there's not their signature or anything like that, I was getting overdrawn like crazy. It just didn't work out for me the way I wanted to. I went and got this office, hired some people. ball thought it was just going to be great and all this stuff and I was just going to do it with just checks and I'd be okay and it just didn't work out so at this point now my son's mom and I would decide you know what maybe we'll move to Florida so I get a call from Ted's wife and uh because she hears that I might be getting ready to move the floor she's like all right

listen so what we'll do i have you come on down here to florida and we'll just use cell phones because they still had the office still in ohio but it was just it was just running on fumes it did just so it's nothing so um i come down i come down to florida and now we're using cell phones calling people saying that all all the same the same stuff that we're supposed to be saying. But Ted, the owner on the side, he is still working for other people. Now the other places shut down. There's another one. Now he's working for another guy. And so I would do the legit stuff that I thought during the day. And then at night, we'd call people and say, hey, got great news. Your property is already sold. You got a

pay half the closing costs and all the stuff. We just started basically lying to people. So I feel, for my own self, is I feel a lot of the stuff that I did in Ohio, legal, unethical, sure. But then once I came back down to Florida, they were supposed to open up their own store or their own office here in Florida. And I was going to run that. We still to this day have never opened up that office.

because go ahead i'm sorry i was going to say i mean what happened when you tell somebody hey the closing costs are thousand dollars you got to pay 500 bucks up front they send you the 500 dollars and there's never a closing yeah so you that's because i'm assuming at some point a week within a week or so they're like when are we oh yeah no no no the the closings didn't happen in a week it's most of the time was like 45 60 days because we've got to get all the paperwork we're backed up all, all this kind of stuff. So when we, when they were calling them originally and selling them, we got the closing. Right.

And then we're getting ready to, you got to pay half the closing costs, which half the closing costs is $3,000 is that's their portion, it's $3,000. It's really $6,000. We've convinced the seller or the buyer to pay the other. So your closing date. So if we're at, you know, we'd just make up a date 30 days from now. and yep that's that's the date that you're going to close so they're getting all excited when that date come oh yeah you know what nope it's we're not ready yet and we just continue

to keep pushing and pushing them and spending them 60 90 days correct at some point though don't they have to say hey you don't send me my money back who are these buyers well yes and no so so what happens is there's all of these different companies And Ted convinces people to start opening up these companies and he'll work for him because he's like the man at doing this. So now what happens is if I call you and I say, hey, Matt, listen, I got, I got your property sold. You got to pay out to close it goes. Okay, yeah, sure. Then they pay it.

So now that's ABC company. Now I call you from XYZ company, say, man, I got bad news. unfortunately that buyer closed down but i got good news i've got a new buyer for you but i got even better news they're willing not to 80,000 they're willing to pay 120,000 we're also going to get your refund for the closing from that company could take some time to get that refund but to get you the 120 you got to have you pay the closing cost here for this one So now we're double, triple dipping, you know, different people and different companies. But then, um, horrible.

And yeah, does it ever, and then they just get strung along, strung along, strung along. Strong, strung along for, yeah, for as long as we can possibly string along. I don't think we've ever refunded anybody. Did you ever get phone calls from the police? I mean, at some point these guys people have to go to the cops and be like, listen. not one time never never the cops never called us no lawyers they never got their lawyers nothing nothing at all and of course you know the media portrays it as this you know

only talking to old people and this net they got no idea they don't want it to it was everybody if if if their name was on the list right they were they were getting a call we couldn't tell if the person was 90 years old 70 years old 70 years old older or 20 years old right we couldn't tell and don't get me wrong there were yes majority of them were older and I think more that they were older is because they had got scammed when they were 20 when they originally had bought this property thinking that it was going to get developed originally but you ever have anybody that you had to give the money back or that he said no I don't think we ever gave anybody back their their money for that not at all Jeff's people call

just pissed yelling screaming or yeah but you know we're we're sales guys we just schmooze them over and you know give you a call back tomorrow let you know what's going on then you call them up and got great news something happened with that buyer is there is there any particular ones that you've been able to like double up multiple times like oh like this is the second buyer canceled but now i got a third one yeah so in my discovery in my discovery in my discovery they got text messages me in new york and then ted here and we and there's a whole ring of guys that we're doing this and we're all exchanging names and telephone numbers and yeah just i signed this guy up he's already bought twice and then somebody else is hitting him up and so that's how

they that's how they got us for conspiracy because we were all conspiring right right to to scam these people each and everyone but um so my wife told me make sure i sound very remorseful not to be no no no no don't do that don't do that doesn't make for a good episode you can be very but it has to be the last 10 minutes yeah yeah yeah i know this is wrong yeah i was in a bad spot no it wasn't it's not like that even to today i mean i i i i laugh about it because it It's as weird as it is, and as cliche as it is, I wouldn't take none of it back. I just wouldn't because if I did, then I probably wouldn't be, I wouldn't be, I would have found something else to do. Yeah.

I would have found something else to do and figure it out because that's just, I'm the, I'm the easy way out kind of guy. But so now I come down to Florida and we were just. just now it got to a point to where we just said screw ohio all together we're just going to 100% call everybody and we're just calling all these people and saying hey listen we got your property sold congratulations so we're going to we're going to do this so after getting them a couple of times so now back to your question is how did we string them along you know what we forgot you got to pay the capital gains tax. So now you have to pay the capital gains tax on the property. Sorry about that. That's our fault. Nobody's more upset about this than me. Correct. I know you're

upset. Me too. Me too. I told Bob, but that's why Bob doesn't work there anymore, by the way. Absolutely. And you wouldn't believe how many times I would pay on the phone. You know what? I'm not really sure. Hold on. Let me grab a manager. Yep. And that's just me. All I did was switch ears and so so now you got to pay capital gains tax. And it got to a point to where we weren't even working for anybody anymore. Right. It was just Ted and I sitting on his back porch, smoking cigarettes, wandering around in his yard and calling people off of seven different cell phones that we both just had sitting in front of us, burner phones.

and now they're sending us money via Western Union and MoneyGram. So no longer checks, credit card, none of that stuff. So we were just like, well, you got to send it to us through Western Union? Why do we got to send it through Western Union? It's the fastest way for us to get the monies. And we don't have to worry about anything, you know, with the electronic. Would you rather get the money fast? or do you want us to wait?

So it just got to a point to where we were just literally calling people. And he still had his office here in Florida where we were going to open up. So now we're just sitting in there, him in one office and me in another office. And I would have friends of mine and friends of his go around all day long to Western Union and to MoneyGram picking up these money. So if I was, you were going to go pick it up, I'd send it in Matt Cox's names. They're like, well, who's that? He's the owner.

He's the assessor. He's the, you know, whatever it was. And they're like, well, why are we sending it to him? Well, because it's Western Union Money, you can't send it in businesses. And the own, we were getting, it was just a ridiculous amount that we were getting a week through Western Indian Moneygram. I don't even think to this day I'm allowed to use Western Union or money grant. You know what's so funny is like as he's talking about this,

I'm thinking to myself, like how can you even hold them off even longer? You know, like to me, holding them off even longer would be like once you get them once and you get them twice, then you could say, hey, you could set up like a fake title company, which is just to be like an email address with a website and a phone number.

And then you could actually print up like a, a disclosure, a set of disclosures and a set of like a HUD statement, a closing statement, and then mail it to them, tell them they have to get it notarized, mail it back. Then when they say, when do I get my check? Well, you signed it. We have to have the buyer sign it. So we're mailing it to the buyer, mailing it back. Okay, now that we've got it, all right, so we've got it.

We're waiting for their lender to fund the money. Like, you could drag that out another three weeks, maybe even a month. Yeah. Then you could even mail them a check that they could deposit into their bank account. You know what I'm saying? Like, and then that takes, of course, their bank account probably looks good for about a week or two. And then, of course, it bounces. And then, of course, that starts the whole thing.

What do you mean at bounce? That was our escrow account. Hold on. Let me get in touch with Todd. I'm going to have Todd call you back. You know, you drag it off another week. Like, you could drag that out six weeks before they finally realize, like, oh, my God, this is all a scam. But that's another six weeks.

Then you shut everything down, start it up all over again, do it with a whole new set of people. We weren't, yeah, at this point, we weren't even, we, he had a, he had a name for a second LLC. So somebody Googled it, they can, which was nationwide land sales. Right. So what I would do, they would, where are you calling from nationwide? You know, nationwide is on your side. Right. And I would, I would say that jingle.

Right. But I never said I was nationwide insurance. Right. so immediately though it gives credibility just gives the credibility so even though i never said i was nationwide insurance right which i obviously i knew what i was doing right um it's not my fault if they made that yeah it's not that's not that's not my fault oh is that what you thought i meant oh oh i'm so sorry that's my fault my my apologize so i so we started just getting i mean could be hundreds of thousands of dollars a week in western union

and we so now you got to pay your property gains tax then i can't remember and i still and i've been trying for years to remember what it was is one day i was just on the phone and just pulled it out of thin air well you got to pay and i can't remember what i called it but what you do is you have to pay to because you have to cross over somebody else's property to get to yours as an easement yeah but that's i i just called it you made up a name i made up a name for it and so now we have to get you have to pay for that now because we have to get permission to cross their property to get to yours to even do the assessment and the the um the land survey and all that so we can't just walk across their property. Right. And they're like, oh, okay. And so we just started, we just were continuing

to make up all sorts of different fees that they had to continue to keep paying to drag it out. And we, we just, we just did that for a long time for a few months. It's funny. I met a guy in prison, which is where typically prior to this podcast, podcast is where I met people, like yourself. And he had worked a phone room where they were selling time shares. And then eventually he quit or got fired. I forget what it was. And he was in New York.

And he would go, he eventually, when he left one of the jobs, he got the list. They had a list. Like he's like, I knew where they had the list. They would give us the phone number. to call or whatever and he was like it wasn't on a dial system like you're dialing these people and you're explaining that you know or you're trying to sell them he's like well I got the list you know what they were doing they were selling timeshares for people that already had time shares yeah yeah yeah we're listing it on your site the same thing we're going to list it on our website

we're going to advertise and try and get it sold we do seminars all the same same you know that that basic scam they pay 400 bucks a thousand bucks so what he did was he went and got that list when he got he got the list and he got fired or he quit and knew he's quitting somehow I know they got the list and he said what's funny is you could call other phone rooms and get the list of people they'd already called and you could buy that list he was which for nothing correct so he said I had a cup went and got a couple cell phones he and a couple other guys and he said we started calling those net those but he said because that was like a legitimate like you're saying like a kind of like a legitimate thing where we're putting it on the website like you we know what you expect but that's not what's

really happening we're putting on a website that nobody ever goes to we're not advertising the website like we know you're not going to sell it and in the phone he's like he's like you did okay he's like he made like a couple thousand a week doing that and he said but then we got the list he said and what we decided to do was like how can we do this so that um it doesn't come back on us you so one we get burner phones okay he said and two we started calling the list but what we did was they would call these people and say hey listen I noticed that He said, keep in mind, too, we could look it up and see like they were that they were behind. They hadn't paid their association dues in like five years or something.

Like they owe like 20,000 in association dues. He'd call them up and we'd say, hey, and he was like, initially they kind of think you're like a collection agent. We're calling about this property and they'd be like, oh, yeah, what about that property? I don't even go. I don't even want nothing to do with that. They're like, no, no, no, sir, the building's been sold. But the closing is in about, you know, two weeks. And he said, they're like, okay, they're like, well, you still own the building.

That deed is in your name. So we're calling let you know because the building is going, it's going to become condos or be bulldoze. They're putting up Trump towers, whatever it is. And he says, they're like, you bought that property for $80,000. Well, it's been assessed based on the new sale of the building. building at $140,000, you're going to make $60,000. You know, here's the issue is that you're, and he said it would be different. Sometimes it would say, look, but we, we can't sell it because you have your 20,000 in arrears.

Right. You have to pay the $20,000. And they go, oh, can't you just take it out? He's like, no, listen, you don't seem to understand. Like, we're, I'm, and he would say he was an attorney. You know, I'm an attorney. We're doing one or two things. We have to, by law, we have to give you.

the we have to give you the option to pay the arrears or we're filing like a suit for quiet title and we're just going to take the property from you you'll get nothing now granted you won't owe the third the or no i think you say you'd still owe the 20 000 or you wouldn't whatever it was the point is is that if you pay us to 20,000 then i can get you the 60 right but i can't do it simultaneously you have to pay first and they would go like oh my god um um and he's like you understand so he said these people would pay 12 000 14000 20,000, 10,000, and this guy was vicious, he would laugh, he'd go, he'd go, oh, God, man, you go, the old people are the easiest.

And he would laugh about, and he had this laugh that was so cringe. It was so, he was like, he's like, he was like, he gets this like, you're like, oh, God, you're like, you give, I used to tell him, it's like, you make, you give, you give con men a bad name. Yeah, I know, right? And it was like, and he, he had this, he had a big nose and he, he was so, ugh. he was just grinding you know what he looked like the beat one of the like the guys of the beastie boys oh yeah just uh so like trolls and and so anyway what happens is he um he was telling me this and he would laugh about it and he'd say so he'd get to i go well where do you get the 20,000 where did they

say the 20,000 he goes listen to this is this how we got busted funny you say that because you ask that because this is how we got busted so he says he just keep in mind we're going to clubs in New York. Yeah. If we're pulling up in, and we're pulling up in a limos and, you know, Hummer limos and like all these. He doesn't work you for this before. And he's like, we're getting out. We go, we're buying. We got VIP. We're buying. You know, they're just, you know, really living it up. He's like, well, you know, because of that, because we're spending money, he's like, girls like come to you right away. He's, we're dancing with these hot fucking chicks. They're amazing looking. And they'd be like, what do you do for a living?

And I tell them, oh, I said, we sell this. We did it. He's not just tell them. It's a scam. We run a fuck. We run scams. And the girls would say, well, God, man, how could I make some money? How could I get it on it? He'd go, look, you want to make some money? Here's what we'll do. He goes, you got a bank account?

Yeah, well, here's what we'll do. We'll put the money. We'll have them send you money. You just cash out the money and give us the cash. And we'll give you 20% or 30% or 50% or whatever it was. And of course, they're thinking, oh, my God. Like, he's like, and then if they said something like, will the cops show up or will I get in trouble? They go, well, then when they show up, you just say, I met some guy and

fucking bar and he told me that to you know to let him he said he's going to wire some money to me and and i had to cash out the money and give him the money and i just thought i was doing doing a favor for a friend he's like you can give my cell number and everything my name everything because keep in mind he already knows that they don't know his name right i've already introduced myself i knew this was coming way before you i told my name my name was dan you know um whatever you know bradley and you and i'll give you my cell phone number and you just have them call me and you know, just, they're not going to rest you. And it was just funny, too, because they typically don't. Correct. Like, like typically the money went in. I cashed out, I got 12 grand over the course

of two days. I cashed out the money. And I gave you $8,000 or $10,000. And I kept two. And he's like, oh, I go, don't the girls ever take off with it? Because we've had a couple girls. Oh, yeah, of course. What we explained to him is that we're going to do this over and over and over again. He's in they're not stupid. He's like, they think I could make $100,000 in a month. Um, but yeah, I have to cash out and give them 200, but I'll still make a hundred or whatever their cut is. Like it'd be stupid for me to take the first $10,000 and not hold out the month for the hundred. He goes, and as soon as they see it once, he was most of them say, okay, and let you know, they're not drug addicts. You know, right. They're drug addict. They'll just take

the 10 and run. So anyway, he's doing this and here's what happens is one of his buddies. He's like, you understand we never took them to our houses. They never knew our names. They never had a real cell phone, our real phone numbers. They had the number we gave them. And this was something we did on a weekly basis. So we're getting these girls every week. We're getting at least one or two girls. And we're just having these people wire the money to their accounts. And then they're cashing it out over the course of several days over and over.

Sometimes the bank accounts get shut down because, you know, the bank says something's weird. You'd have hundreds of thousand dollars going to your account. Sometimes we'd have them go out and open a couple accounts and they do it on multiple accounts. He doesn't, you know, we lose some money. He's like, what does it matter? You're making $300,000 and you only ended up with $150,000 of the $300,000. That's what does it matter? he's like we're barely even working yeah who cares anyway the point is is one of the guys he's like

hooks up with a girl falls in love with her tells tells her eventually tells her what his real name is brings her back to his house and the FBI shows up at her place three months later because she does it for like 100,000 they shut off the accounts everything three months later the FBI shows up she immediately gives him up brings him to to the guy's house they grab the guy he gives up this guy this guy ends up going to prison for and listen it was it was millions wasn't like half a million dollars i mean it was like in the millions like he's got like one two three million dollars and and he owed like three million and he got like four years or something like that and i mean i would love to get him on the podcast because he wasn't just unremorseful

which is fine i have no problem with it if you're not remorseful because i understand that the mindset he was he delighted in it he loved what yeah he and he had so many stories of people oh i'm gonna call my financial manager he'd be like what you need to call your fine he'd argue with these old people or he or they the financial manager would call and he'd explain the whole situation the financial manager who's just hey so what did you want to talk about well i want to tell you about Wagovi. Wagovi? Yeah.

Wagovi. What about it? On second thought, I might not be the right person to tell you. Oh, you're not? No, just ask your doctor. About Wagovi. Yeah, ask for it by name. Okay.

So why did you bring me to the circus? Oh, I'm really into lion tamers. You know, with the chair and everything. Ask your doctor for Wagovi by name. Visit wagovi.comi.com for savings. Exclusions may apply. Book Club on Monday. Jim on Tuesday

Date night on Wednesday Out on the town on Thursday Quiet night in on Friday It's good to have a routine And it's good for your eyes too Because with regular comprehensive eye exams at Specsavers You'll know just how healthy they are Visit Spexavers.cavers.caiator to book your next eye exam

I exams provided by independent optometrists It's a finance manner. It doesn't have a fucking clue. And he'd be like, that sounds reasonable. Like, no, it doesn't. It doesn't sound reasonable at all. But he doesn't know the laws in Florida. He doesn't know real estate law.

He doesn't, he's a financial manager. You know what I'm saying? Like, I buy stocks and I buy annuities, and I manage your stock portfolio. I don't know anything about real estate in Florida. Yeah, how it all works. Right. And this kid was, listen, he would rattle off. He would rattle off his spiel.

And I'm sitting here. with him wearing prison greens in a fucking unit in a prison unit sitting in my cell and I thought fuck this guy sounds convincing like I actually you I know I know real estate inside now and damn he had a spiel I mean I was like that's you're good you're good like I was like wow and he had so many horrific stories about clipping these people once and then going back and getting them again and then getting them again. And I was like, I don't understand. He was like, yeah, he's like, this was a, he's like, oh, you don't understand.

This guy was a, he was a, you know, he worked in a, whatever, in a warehouse and he made D.C. made good money. And yeah, I got that guy for $25,000. The first time I got him for six. The next time I got him for 12. The next time I got him for four. It was like total of like $22,000. He was like, yeah.

And eventually he goes, he had kept paying. You just didn't have any more money. I was like, you know, because he would do the same thing. something else and something else and something else now you got to pay the lawyer fee and now you got to pay this fee yeah we had those two where you know the people would just where they would have they'd still pay today right because to them they thought he these people thought they were getting 50 grand or 60 or 80 grand yeah it's worth it it typically he said it typically broke down when they would start to go to family members to get the money and then the family member would go the fuck

are you talking about yeah you want to borrow $8,000 how much have you paid these people well i've already paid him this much money he's like you know and they'd get on the phone with me and we'd start arguing and they'd be like it's a scam and i'd be like ah fuck and i'd hang up the phone and and he would just laugh and laugh about it it was just it's funny because thinking about him laughing makes me want to laugh even though he was such a horrible horrible individual i mean it was just he was just the worst the worst where does it do you know where he lives now he was from New York. He was a typical New Yorker. I mean, he was very, no offense. No, very, very just, you know, a New York con man, that unrepentant, unremorseful.

He was one of those guys that would, the, the cops would go and during count, you know, when they count everybody, right? So they're walking through counting. You have to be completely quiet. And somebody would say something. And then, like, he would say something. He drops up, dude something and then he'd go um and the cops who said that who said that he'd be like go fuck your mother and they'd be like who the fuck said the cops would go nuts because they they're on a power truck oh yeah and they scream and holler and they walk up and down and then they'd be like okay well guess what you're you're staying in yourselves the rest of the fucking night you're not watching tv you're not this so now the other guys are like yo bro you better fucking you want a

mouth thought that and then he's like fuck them he's like no no you're fucking all everybody else correct and then he he eventually that happened like a couple times with this guy he was that kind of a jackass he thought it was funny and eventually you know these guys are literally like

the cops are like I'm going to count the next fucking cell or the next unit and they leave knowing the other inmates are going to step to this guy and listen five or six guys walk in front of his fucking cells say we'll beat your fucking ass if you don't fucking he'd be like

he'd cower you know he's been one of those guys that's he's six foot two when he's on the telephone but in front of you he buckles yeah he's just a jackass do you know um do you have like an idea of how much like what's the most that you've been able string along one person for like ballpark

man I I think I think the one was like 37 grand And how much do you think, and how much do you think their property was worth, like, actually? It's a couple hundred bucks. Yeah. Oh, God. Oh, my God.

Just a few hundred bucks. To the money thing, does having all that money come through Western Union, does that not bring up red flags? Well, he's having it go to different people. Yeah, different people. I mean, but, I mean, I did have the. Okay, yes, the core people. Okay, sorry. Sometimes I miss some details because I'm like writing down notes of like TikToks and stuff.

So if he's constantly having kind of kind of having different people go, then at some point Western Union might be like, this guy has received $40,000 in a month. Yeah. And he's coming here. He's getting it out in cash. Something's wrong. Yeah.

And then they might flag you and say, no, no, no, you can't come back. And then we would run into people go into money, grammar, Western Union and saying, yeah, I've got to send this money. They're like, well, What's it? Do you know who they? Well, no, they just called me and they, yeah, I don't really think you should. And there's been times where I was on the phone with the Western Union or the money grant person. And sometimes, sometimes they'd be like, nah, screw off. I don't, I don't think you should do this. And other times I convince the money gram or Western Union employee that's none of their damn business. Right. And then they're like, yeah, actually, you know what? This does sound okay. Yeah. And then they would have you gone to the website? Are you interested in property? Right. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, all that, all that kind of stuff. You know, you just start making small talk with them. What's nationwide?

Yeah. Yeah. If you use the same logo, the same, you use some of some similarities, people would think. Yeah. And I mean, and that was really just it. You know, if you get somebody else on the phone, you know, at the, once I one day just was like, nationwide is on your side. I was like, this is, this is perfect.

You know, this is going to be great. So one time I was buying houses. in an area and I would renovate the house I'm buying these houses for 60 grand and I'd go and renovated I'd put they were really honestly most of them were already renovated but they were just shitholes like it like renovated badly going for 60 70,000 like they're just horrible houses but from a if you took a photo from the outside like it's got it's got vinyl siding on it it's got new carpet I mean are the are the floors cock eyed yes is is the are the cock this much cock between the the you know what I'm saying like the the the home depot kitchen yeah that's in there it's all

level and everything but I mean the floors are wavy they've got linoleum down new linoleum but so for a photograph it looked okay but right walked in there walked in there yeah if you dropped a soccer ball on the floyd roll to the corner you know it was these are bad houses and um so I bought these from a shitty rennet guy who renovated houses he did a shit job yep so what I did was I went around the whole area and I put up these signs that said Nashville Restoration Project and then I put the website on the on the side of the sign these were big these are like maybe maybe 30 inches by 48 inches and they're the vinyl siding and I would put like a metal bar you know on the porch so the the signs are very they look very professional

and if you went to the website there's a website well the color scheme was exactly the same color scheme, font, everything for what's called the, it's called a future comp plan. So every city has a comprehensive plan for their future developments and that the city tries to help kind of say, hey, in this area, we'd like to make this a commercial area. This should be multifamily. This should be multi-use. Here's industrial. They try and gear.

And of course, they do zoning, but then they try and add incentives. Or some areas, we're trying to get contractors coming here and renovate this area. We want to make this a historic area. Right. So I put up these signs and you'd, so if you went to my website, it was connected. I had all the links to their site. And so if you were in the renovation business or construction business or residential construction business, you thought this was connected with the city's future comp plan. Yep.

And in that, I talk about how the projects, this was right next to the projects in Nashville. and I talked about in there how the projects was scheduled to be to they were going to start evacuating or you know basically removing people from the from that within a year and within two years the entire projects were going to be demolished and they were building a new residential area or neighborhood where they were which is something they do but this was absolutely not happening by the way but I put these signs all over these these things and I would buy these properties for $60,000, and I would record the sales for $200, $210, $215, $195, $180. So when I would have an appraiser come over and look at the property, he'd walk through the

whole property, and I would say, so what do you think it's worth thinking, I don't know if he's going to buy it, right? Like there's tons of houses that are selling for $40,000, $60,000. And he goes, well, you know, a year ago, I'd have told you. you this was worth about 50, 60 grand. And he said, but, you know, now that the, he was now the Nashville Restoration Project has come in the area. He goes, it's, it's worth at least 200. And I'd say, you hold on to this. It's going to be worth about 350 in a year or so. You got a good deal. And I'd go, what's the Nashville Restoration Project? And he'd go, well, it's this one of these big developers. They come in. He goes, they came into Germantown about 10 years ago, renovated the entire

area. But just, but it's hilarious. I came up with this a month ago. It's not even really incorporated yet. I incorporated it two or three months later because it had such a buzz. And yet he had been to the website. He'd seen all the renovations. He'd seen all the properties. He'd read all about all about it. And so he's telling me, yeah, well, you know the property. You know the he goes, you know the, the projects are coming down next year, don't you? I said, no, I didn't know that. He's like, oh, yeah, yeah. And then he added they went into a German town, which was on the other side of Nashville about 10 years ago. He said, you can't buy anything over there for less than half a million to a million dollars. I was like, wow, man. So what do you think this is worth? Oh, it's worth

at least 200, 200,000. I was like, oh, okay. But that, you're right, but the connection for that credibility. And he was, he was like, oh, you know, they work with the city. Yeah. And I'm like, oh, okay, I didn't know that way. Told me all about it. Everything he told me was on my website, except for the Germantown thing, which he added. I love that he added the fiction to it. Right. But it was, it was great. You're right. that connection to something legitimate. Yeah, because that's all it is just giving me credibility on that. So I was just like, I don't even know how the hell I thought about it. I just popped in my head one day and let's go with the jingle. So what, so what, how long did you do this?

So at this point, we did it. The Western Union, I think we might have did it for like four or five, maybe six months. Right. On the, on the Western Union. Because I think, it was we were already under investigation at that time and we didn't know it how did they get on to you so the state of ohio is um where where everything had started so they said that they had got a bunch of attorney general complaints but at the same time all of those attorney general complaints were all answered and answered back that we're doing okay so when he took the database from Ohio and brought it to Georgia and Florida, what I think happened is, is I think they just started to connect because now people are starting to call their own attorney

generals and this company and that company. And now they're starting to figure it out that it originated here, but what's really going on. So I think that they just started to see certain things, but we were under investigation for like 18 months before they ever came because one day I'm supposed to go into work and well, go to the porch. Well, yeah, we're going to actually go to the office, but that day, I think we're supposed to go to the office. But he's supposed to call me or shoot me a text and let me know when he's coming in. Well, it gets like 11.30, 12 o'clock.

I still don't hear from him. I'm calling, texting. Nobody's answer. Him or his wife. So I said, all right, well, whatever. So my girlfriend at the time, my son's mom, she went to the gym. And it happened to be trash night the night before. So the trash can's still down at the road.

She just calls me, I have to say I'm turning down the road right now. I'll be there in just a minute. So all right, no problem. So I'm just going to go get trash cans. So I happen to go outside. And I see this car drive by my house. I live on the Colvassack, and they turn around, and then they park diagonal from my house, two or three, probably about two houses down.

She pulls in the driveway. I said, all right, get ready. Feds are here. I just, I just knew. So she said, what? I said, yeah, you heard me. So let's get ready. She said, all right.

So we, of course, the two guys pull up in the suits, which I didn't know it at the time. I just thought, yeah, you know, the feds. You still hadn't heard from your business partner. Still had not heard from that. How long was the same day? Same exact day. So they raided their house at like six in the morning. Right.

So they're not calling because they're not able to call. So they, two guys in suits, the BCU, the Bureau of, you know, the BCI Bureau of Criminal Investigation from the state of Ohio. They walk up and like, hey, can we come inside? Nah, we'll talk right here. What's up? What's going on? And the day before, I bought the huge DLP, Mitsubishi, TV, 83 inches. The box is still in the garage.

I got the garage door open. The guy who puts his clipboard and everything right on the box, and we're talking. Now, my son's mom, she's all about the good fellas about when they come, you know, they were spitting on the floor. And me, I'm asking, do you guys want water? So she's, you guys want any water? you guys want coffee i'm i was just about to cook some are you guys hungry she's playing all that you know that whole role and i'm just answering you know i'm they're asking me some questions about what's going on and all of a sudden i just feel my phone in my pocket it's just now it's

going crazy in my pocket i'm like guys i got to go to the bathroom so i go inside i'm getting pages text 911 911 yeah i already know they're here right now so um i go back who is that that's ted and his wife calling and texting me so i don't know how i i don't even know how the heck they even could text me because they took like every electronic device maybe at that time when she was texting me they hadn't confiscated their phones yet but um they uh so they're there for like a half an hour but it's more or less like a yes no type of answers is all, is all I was given them. And, uh, did you work here? Yes. Yep. Did you do? Yeah. Did you do? Yeah.

Did you know? No. So it was just a lot of yes or no questions. So now they're there. And I can't let them come in my house because on my desk and on my counter, I've got thousands of Western Union receipts just sitting there. So if they walked in, I mean, immediately they would have seen it. But I, a little savvy at that age about letting people come on in and things like that. So I said, nah, we can chat right here. Plus, I'll let you guys sweat while you're sitting there out in the heat in your suits. So we, you know, we just kind of yes or no questions. I'm like, all right.

So then they leave. And they're like, well, all right. So I'm like, all right. Man, shit, we got to wait. And that was a close call, but we're good to go. No, you're not. No. We're not. So I'm like, all right, we're good. They leave, they left us. We're good to go. But I'm never doing that shit again. That's exactly what I said. So now hours go by. Ted and his wife come there. Ted's real scrawny. Not, not a very, I'm not going to fight you kind of. He's just not going to. So he comes to my house because I still hadn't talked to them, but they come to my house. and he gets out of the car and I'm just I'm I'm mad I'm mad at him for getting me into this mess

but you know knowing what I he didn't get you know I could have walked away I could have just said no you know it wasn't him right you know they got me into it so I just remember me just going you know and saying something to him and he just was like and I was dude I'm I'm I really want to kick your ass right now but just just leave so We talk for a couple minutes. And then, man, yeah, I'd never told anybody this either. Is we still have the office that they can't get access to because none of us own it. So it's in an office building.

So they have to wait for somebody to come get the key. Well, the laptops in there. Right. Which there's a world of information on there. So he's like, dude, I know. need you to go to the office and get the laptop i'm like and destroy evidence i'm like are you kidding me they're what am i going to go over there and they're they're going to be waiting outside so so i'm like all right i'll yeah sure i'll go over and get the laptop so i figure out i'm going to wait the

cops out so i wait like two hours maybe i do go over there i don't know what happened to the laptop but the laptop is it's already missing no it's not already missing but I went in there I got the laptop and you know that's your limitations yeah yeah plus I already got in trouble so yeah so yeah so I went in there I got the laptop and uh I never gave him back the laptop right and uh but the day before we had got you know they they came to my house came to his house, I was driving his vehicle and I had my book bag with my laptop in his car

and I forgot it in his car that night. So they had my laptop because, you know, there. But they came on to this house. They wanted to take his DVR. Anything that had electronics, you know, anything that was recordable. They took like, I think it was like $80,000 in gift cards because we would just buy gift cards and that's how we would give it out to like the guys who worked for us for you know a spiff or whatever here you go but i think it might have been like 20 grand i don't know it was it was an astronomical amount of gift cards so they think like we're getting all this cash and we're just buying gift cards so that it's untraceable and all this stuff i don't even know what we did with half the money yeah as i said you know it's funny you're just reminding me remember

the guy rudy or not uh the guy that I saw in the gym. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So this guy I used to, he used to work with me. He's one of these guys that he was actually listed on my indictment, but he never ended up getting arrest or anything. And it's funny because when I took off on the run, he went into the office and got the CPU. Like some, I don't know how many he got, if he got multiple, because we had multiple

computers it maybe was just his CPU i don't know and you know it's for his you know this is when you know you had CPUs these big the big i don't know if they still well they still have them right the big box big boxing yeah so he took it he drove over to like the Courtney campbell causeway like the bridge stopped his car and threw it over the problem is people people driving over the bridge think that oh it's a bridge with the Courtney Campbell causeway 90% of it is, it's only three feet of water. Yeah. So when they eventually talk to him and they ask him where his computer is, he says,

I threw it over the bridge. They were like, are you serious? He was like, yeah, they said, tell us where it is. So they actually sent out like a scuba diving team to go and get it. This is what the agent, the FBI agent, had told me. That woman, Candace Calderon, she said, well, when they got it, she said, and they got it up. and she said there was actually a dead fish in it. So a fish had swung in there somehow.

When they picked it up, it was still in there. So it ended up drowning and died. So they had taken the fish and put it in a, in like a mason jar and filled it up with water. And they stuck it on her desk. And so, you know, and they had it all wrapped up. And they were like, here's your CPU.

It's, we can recover nothing. And they were like, and here's the dead fish that was in the CPU. But yeah. So I can, you know, it's funny. like the throwing all the stuff like you know people get nuts like they get like oh destroy it like you had enough any idea how much evidence is involved that they've already yeah they've already got it all yeah yeah so all you're doing is adding charges correct so i and i i i don't even remember what i did with this laptop i i still i don't remember

but um um so i go and take the laptop and of course i'm like scared shitless I'm just waiting to come out of there and they're like, oh, what are you doing? Right. Because now I got it outside of the building. I took it out of the building for them. And now it's in my possession. So I'm like, all right, well, screw this. I'm not doing this anymore.

And then I said, well, you know what? Let me go get a job, which I haven't had a job now, a real job, a few years. So I went to go back to selling cars because that's what I know. And I was there for. here in Florida for probably maybe two months and I think I was just so worried to talk to somebody like maybe who knows maybe it's they're undercover and they're coming there to try to buy a car and you know so I I would I just didn't sell anything the whole time I was there good thing they were giving me a like it was like a $750 a week salary but I was I didn't sell

anything. So finally, um, I get a phone call one day and they're like, hey, this is so-and-so from the BCI. I'm like, okay, what's up? What do you, what do you meet? This is like probably three months later, two months later. And they're like, well, um, we want to talk to you. I said, all right, well, what's up? And they're like, no, we want you to come on in to, so we're like, We're here in Florida, here in Tampa. Yeah, no, I don't think so. I mean, they're in Tampa? Oh, yeah.

Because they had already came here once. And then three months later, all of a sudden, he's here in Tampa. Because when they, when they raided the house and they came to my house to talk to me, I was living in Florida at that time. Right. So now I'm like, you're here? Okay. Well, what's going? They're like, well, we want you to meet us at the police station.

I'm like, yeah, no, I don't think so because I've seen too many movies. I've seen too many. Once I go into there, I'm not coming back out. I was like, if you want to meet in a random parking lot or something like that, they're like, yeah, no, that's probably not how we want to do this one. And I said, well, I think I'm just going to contact an attorney and see. And he goes, well, I'm going to tell you this. It really behooves you to get back a whole whole whole.

of me. Now, I've never been told this. I've never, no one, I just had an assumption, I have an assumption of what I think, I think possibly maybe they were going to offer me immunity if I would have went there and talked to them that day. Because they thought, like, I was like the, the kingpin of this whole thing. But I was, but I wasn't. um you know i just fed off of somebody else's small-minded idea and i lit i i was fueled to the fire right and then the two of our minds together was was very big so but as soon as i said a lawyer they were like oh we're done okay we're all done you know trying to talk to you so now i'm like you know this is getting kind of serious i guess maybe we're not done

So I tell my girlfriend, my son's mom, I said, well, what we should probably do is move back to New York because if they come here and they get me, she's now stuck here with my son and doesn't know anybody. Right. So we moved back to New York. And I get a job selling cars again. And something happens. At some point, I need. needed a job. For some reason, I didn't have a job. So I never really even contacted a lawyer, never had the lawyer call them because out of sight, out of mind, whatever. If they, figured maybe it'll just go away if I don't think about it. Right. So I'm on my way to a job interview and I'm speeding and I get pulled over like 55 and a 30 or something like that through these back roads and at the time i didn't have a driver's license i don't think or something but i haven't had a driver's license at times and i know if it takes them a while

something's up and then especially if another cop pulls up something's definitely up so immediately i i go every time i get pulled over i got to get on the phone with somebody because i'm just always just worried so i'm on the phone with my girlfriend and and i go So this guy's taken, like, forever. And I'm not talking about, like, I was sitting there for, I think, like, 30 minutes, 40 minutes before I ever came back to the car. Then all of a sudden, another cop goes up. It's no good. Then another one.

Oh, it's not good. That's definitely an arrest. I'm like, yeah, something's up. I said, this is where I'm at. And I'm, like, rattling it off really fast. So the cop comes up to my door. He says, now, I didn't have my driver's license on me at the time. And he says, he got six felony warrants.

Only six? I said, not me, sir. I said, I've never been in trouble a day in my life. I said, you might be thinking of my father, but not me. Next thing you know, he rattles off my date of birth, my social. So, yeah, that's me. Go, but I've never been in trouble a day in my life. Not yet.

He goes, well, it's from, he said something. And he goes to know how. I said, oh, I know what that is, but that's not me, sir. I didn't do anything. So the guy who owned the place, I think he was doing, I said, I think I'm probably okay. I got to get to this interview. You don't seem to understand. Yeah.

It doesn't matter what you say. Correct. And I was, and I'm like, man, I'm a salesman. I can, okay, I'll get out of this. And then my thought was in all of the short seconds, it was like, okay, all I got to do is get away from this guy. let him out of sight I can bust my U-turn go back home

get my clothes and we'll go off to another city and we'll be okay well needless to say I didn't he wasn't never out of my sight so he was actually he was okay he said listen I'm going to put the cuffs in front of you

first time ever I've got to sit in the front seat of the cop car and drove me over it's just a little small town on where it was so now we're there and by now i get to the police station my girlfriend gets there he's got me handcuffed to the wall while sitting on a bench and he's waiting for all of the information from ohio so because i had a secret indictment everybody else was already arrested the day before for the most part but i didn't know at all because if so there's no way i would have left my right and speaking to people now or after that they said that every time they arrested somebody

they always asked where i was so and nobody knew at we know where i was so i wait for i think it was like 37 page facts had to come through which was the indictment right yeah and um so i read it and i can't remember all my charges really i can only remember conspiracy and engaging of a pattern or corrupt activity no no no yeah no yeah there was i think there might have been wire fraud engaging in a pattern or corrupt activity conspiracy aggravated theft of 1.5 million dollars or more and there was there was two other ones was money laundering money laundering that was another one yep there was definitely there so um so i wonder if mail fraud was there because i'm trying to think of all the things that

would cover it definitely money laundering because you guys are using people to go through the correct certainly money laundering it there might have been it might have been mal fraud because you're why having them yeah why are the money to what that's those who are definitely um and then and then obviously conspiracy and then i'm sure i think uh sometimes they'll they'll hit you with mail fraud because that's a pretty general one if you've mailed them anything or and that might have been that might have been i want to say if you emailed them anything if you send any emails or electronic stuff i think that that also is covered in mail fraud yeah in in it in that one there though it's it's not really like a it's like one of the lower end

it is it's still a felony it's still a felony correct like it's like saying when you tell somebody oh you're just going to go to jail for three years they're like three years She's like, that's a minor, fucking, yeah. The bank frauds, fucking 20 years, 30 years. So I'm sitting there, and by now my girlfriend's mom and dad know what's going on. And she's on the phone with them while we're sitting on this bench. And I remember I'm reading what my charge is worth them. And I go, an aggravated theft of $1,500.

or more. And the cop goes, no, sir, that's $1.5 million. Excuse me. But I just so happen to read it so fast. I was like, yeah, you know, he goes, no, it's $1.5 million. I'm like, yeah, sir, again, I don't think that this is for me. And so now I, and I've done prior to this, I've done like a a weekend or an overnight i got you know you know just on on stupid things where i've gone into the jail um there for a few hours and then i'm right out so now they transfer port me over to the actual jail so i go in and i'm like you got to be kidding me like where what in the hell's going on they give me this jumpsuit it's literally a black and white stripe the jumpsuit and i'm just in this big, giant room.

So we're in the open dorms. And I think there was probably maybe 50 people in there, 50, 50 beds, but it was weird because they were all lined up against the wall, so it wasn't a row or anything of them. And so I had the top bunk right over there in the corner, which I thought was great because nobody can get behind me. I can kind of see. I'm just a very observant kind of guy. So I just sit there for a while, a couple weeks or whatever, don't really talk to anybody.

But my girlfriend, we're like two hours from home. So she was coming every, you can do, there was four hours visits for the weekend. You can do two hours and two hours or you can just do a whole four hour visit. Well, I said, no, no, we're not doing one full four hours. I said, I need you to come visit both days. Right. Saturday and Sunday. So kind of break up my day.

So we did that. Well, then eventually, you know, I now started to get off my rack and started to talk to to other people that were in there. I was on the phone a lot. And then I'm waiting. They send me down, they bring me down to the courthouse after I'm there for a few days or whatever. And like, yeah, because this charge is in Ohio, we can't get you a bail.

I said, listen, guys, just give me a bail. I'll pay it now. and I promise you I'll go and turn myself in there in Ohio. Let's not pay, spend any of the taxpayers' dollar. Like, these are all things I'm saying, well, I'm like, sir, no, it's, it's, it's, no, that's not going to, like, are you sure that there's nothing we can do? And the day after I got arrested, my mom, my girlfriend had already hired an attorney already in Ohio.

And so I'm like, can you like email them? Can we call them? It's irrelevant. Nothing's going to change that. Nothing. And of course, you know, just me being the salesperson, I'm like, there's got to be away from me to something out. Yeah, well, I mean, with finagle something.

And I didn't. So now I go back to the county jail. And I'm waiting. I'm just waiting and waiting. I think I was there for 45. days before they had extradited me back to Ohio. And while I was there, now I started to get a little bit more comfortable. And, you know, I knew who I could talk to, who I couldn't. Now I'm starting to play spades. And in this county jail, it was weird. Everybody slept during the day

and was up all night. Right. But so I remember the phones would cut off at a certain time. and right outside of the dorm was the tower or whatever where the COs would be and the phone you could see it right from there so the phones would cut off at a certain time and uh every there's a couple of people in there that had my mom's number just in case if you know they had they took me to to go get extradited so it's like 11 o'clock at night I'm just really getting into the spades game and starting to win and I'm really starting to pick it up and they call me it's time for me to leave so somebody somebody in there calls my mom and it's like 11 o'clock at night it's for whatever reason the phones just didn't cut off that night so my mom knew immediately

you know that you know getting that call that night she knew I was gone there was the worst seven days ever took like seven days for a 10 hour drive yeah yeah um From one county jail to another county jail. Oh, yeah. But we didn't sleep at all at any of the county jails. And three days is what I think it took. And I didn't eat because I was afraid, you know, if I eat and I'd have to take a shit and, you know, just all this stuff. There was no, they didn't give us any water. It was literally like in the back of a van.

And we just were sitting on these benches all across, all shackled together. Feet were all swollen. When hands were swollen, you know, it was, it was horrendous. They could have made it a little bit more comfortable for us, but. I know they're not concerned about that. No, they're not at all. Is it always, does it have to be this uncomfortable? Yeah.

Yeah, they're not. So now I get to the county jail there. And I'm there and I get up like two days after I was there. it's like five o'clock in the morning they hand me a sheet of paper i didn't see the judge or nothing yet and they said well here you go i read the paper a million dollar bail i was like you got to be kidding me so in the state of ohio no matter what your charge is they have to give you a bail um no matter no matter what it is so i'm like man there's no way i'm gonna i'm gonna be able to you out here so eventually i go i meet my lawyer um and i go over the stuff with him he goes

all right well we're gonna uh go in in front of the judge no no actually i went in front of the judge first that was the first time i had met him and uh he got to drop to 70 grand my bail so i went from like a million to 70 000 but i guess that first bail if they would have said it at 70 I could have just paid it right then and then bet out and didn't even go into my first appearance in front of the judge. So they set that one really high. So while I'm, I don't have the seven grand at this point to pay it real quick. So my mom and my girlfriend, they got to get, takes them a few weeks to come up with the money to make sure we can get me bailed out. But while I'm there, I start running into all my co-defendants.

And Jimmy, Pauley. Oh, yeah. Tommy. There was 18 of us. Oh. Yeah. So not everybody was there, but we're there. You obviously could talk to the toilet.

You could talk to the vents. And they're all in different floors. So everybody's like, yeah, we've got to go out to the yard. I'm like, dude, I'm not going out there. I just got in here. I got to observe and watch. everybody first before i can make any moves so i'm like all right so i go outside and we start talking with like all right everybody just keep your mouth shut in let's just you know just shut up

so i'm like all right yeah cool so now we come back in from the yard we're on the elevator we go upstairs one of the COs goes Al come with me so where's he going to the other guys and I go he's going to tell right now

that's where he's going that's where he's going right now and of course he comes and then he comes back he's like then the next day he was no man I didn't say nothing he didn't say well knowing what I know now

you know all my discovery and everything he was the first one to to buckle and And so I'm there for like 73 days total cumulative from the 45 to to then get an extra now I get out and I go home and back to New York. My mom puts up her house and all that stuff to make sure that I can come back home so I don't have to stay there.

I get a job back selling cars at one place I didn't care for it I went to to another place we're fighting for about two years going back and forth the original lawyer that I that they hired we never saw eye to eye from from day one I'm the most normally the most cockiest arrogant person in the room. He's normally the most cocky, arrogant person in the room. So after he gets my bail drop to $70,000, he comes on in and he chats with me and says, hey, you know, what's going on, blah, blah, blah. So I tell him, I go, all right.

He asked me, you know, kind of what I said, hold on, I got a couple questions for you. Because this is the first time I'm ever meeting. And I'm like, is this the big. biggest case you've ever done or you know like what oh no no no it's not are you i had bigger cases already this morning before years and i'm just like all right cool so we we chat a little bit and then i speak to his partner like the next day or something he comes and i say hey you know i want to just apologize i think i might have rubbed him the wrong way yesterday so he says yeah you did a little bit I said, it wasn't that.

It was just, I've never talked to you. So now it's my turn to interview you to make sure that we did the right, right move. So, okay. So now a week goes by or whatever, and my lawyer comes back to talk to me. And I knew I was getting bailed out that day. I knew the money. I knew everything was ready. So he comes back and he, she's talking to me.

He says, listen. they're here and they want to talk to you, the BCI and the Attorney General and all that stuff. And they said, I said, well, for what? And he goes, well, they want to offer you a deal. I said, does it involve going to prison? He said, well, yeah, they're going to. I said, I'm not interested then. That's a mistake.

Yeah, I said, I'm not interested then. I said, if they want to talk to me and ask me for a deal that. I don't care, probation, time serve, whatever it is. I'm okay with that. But if they're offering me to go to prison, I'm out. He goes, all right. He goes, well, let me go talk to them and find out. He goes, here's the deal.

I'll come and get you if I can convince them not to give you prison time. But if not, then I'm not even going to come back and get you. Well, all of a sudden, the CEO opens up the door, hollers my name. I'm rolling up all my stuff. stuff. I'm like, all right, I'm out of here. He goes, what the hell are you doing? I go, I'm, I'm leaving. He goes, no, your lawyers look up for you. I said, oh, all right. I guess it's not time to go yet. So now they bring me downstairs. And I walk it. I'm like, oh, here we go, no prison time. And I said, all right. So my lawyer goes, I said, I just want to make sure,

guys, no matter what you wanted to go to prison, right? This is how you're starting the camera. told you i got no interest so they're like well how much time are you thinking um is what my lawyer says and they're like well more than four but less than 10 what kind of deal is that like more than four but less than 10 see i'm not really interested but thanks and then they said well do you want to have some time with your lawyer i said yeah sure and they go out in the hallway and uh it's a glass door so I can see them. And he goes, all right, well, you want me to go out there and at least try to narrow down exactly how much time they want?

So, yeah. Well, yeah, let's do that. She goes out there, he comes back in. And he says seven years. What? For $1.5 million that you've got 18 conspirators? So one of the girls, she got four years. That's what they send us her to, which is the man.

who got fired a week after I got there. Right. So she has very little culpability. Correct. She was there on the legit side of the business. So. Well, how much time do you do? Do I do?

No, in that system. If you get 10 years, how much time are you going to do inside? There for that, you have to do on that. If you did 10 years, you would have had to do. you couldn't get out early until for you had to do at least five years, I think, is what it was because of how their system, system work, I think. Right. So if you get five years, you got to do two and a half inside.

Correct. Okay. So he says, yeah, you know, give you seven. I said, yeah, okay, well, bring them back in. He's all you're going to take it. I said, bring him back in. So they come on in, they get all comfortable, getting ready. record everything here yeah no thanks have a nice day bring me back upstairs they're like what

so i of course i you know just me and my ego yeah let him come back in let he's my lawyers are we get no we're not we're not doing this i'm not i'm not gonna agree to seven years because at that time i still just thought i didn't do anything wrong you're delusional yeah i didn't do anything wrong I didn't right now what the owner may have done that's on him right but at this point he's already telling the probably he's most likely already telling them that you were the guy who is you're the one correct right so I so now a couple hours goes by or maybe an hour or something I get bailed out um my girlfriend's there um we go and meet my lawyer and we got a couple conversations and I think I got to go to the bail bondsman as well do a couple things there

and my mom's there because she's got to sign paperwork and stuff so I go and meet him now I go I go back home I get some jobs selling cars I get to the the lawyer and I we're just not seeing eye to eye you like we're just we're just not so he gets me a deal of four years nice I'm like, okay, well, you do two years. We're getting a lot closer. That seems like a good deal. Oh, yeah. Knowing what I know today, that was a great deal.

So I said, yeah, you're just fired. I said, you're fired. So what I, we just, we just, we're not seeing eye to eye. You're not saying eye to eye because you're unreasonable. You're not being reasonable. You're not accepting the fact that you've, committed fraud that led to $1.5 million that probably was probably on the low end that they actually held because there's all kinds of people. Oh, no, there was 1.5 or more. Or more. Yeah. So,

yeah, it was, it was more. And they did tell us it was definitely more. But the thing is, is my lawyer just kept telling me, listen, yes, you can take this deal, but I think we can win. Oh, you're telling you can win at trial? Oh, yeah. And some of the thing is, is, even to this day, I still believe that if we went to trial, I may have one. But the thing is, is what I, here's what I think is, I may not have won all of it. But in that time, I would have thought, okay, I would win at least enough not to get 10 years. but I know a lot more today than I do that. But I still think there's portions of those charges that I would have won.

Would I have gone to prison? Absolutely. I still would have. But I feel as if I would have been able to clear myself and got not guilty on some of it. Because it didn't start out as, you know, not. on the up and up so i i wanted somebody to at least acknowledge that and i still to this day at least want somebody to acknowledge that it Bernie made off did not still i know that correct he did not i think you got 150 years he did but you know since then no i've done a lot more research i've i've

I've met more people that are like-minded like myself. And I made the right decision, you know, once I get to there. But I was just like, yeah, we're just, we're just not seeing that eye. They're fired. Yeah. I fire. So what I'm thinking is, what I'm going to do is I'm going to go to New York City, which is about four hours from where I live.

And I'm going to hire a big time New York City lawyer that just walk in there, a big swing. And it's like, this is how it goes, you're a little small, timers that didn't work out either so i i hire this guy we'll come to find my my my girlfriend my son's mom she finds this lawyer we we find two lawyers we go down there to interview them both the first one i go there it's like this russian guy and there's just like files everywhere and we meet them at like at nighttime it to me it was just very weird but knowing what i know today it's probably the lawyer I should have hired because it looks like it probably was on the

up and up but it was one of those things like if it was like a perfect scene for maybe it wasn't and they kind of know what what's going on so I go and I meet this this other guy and um I hire him well I do a little bit more research on him after the fact and I don't even think he was like a real attorney I mean he was a re He was a real attorney, but I think he, I don't know how long he had his law license. Right. At the time, I think he was only doing public defender stuff. Right.

At that time, he also tried to sue the internet. Yeah. So, again, it was just, I just, he's from New York City. He's got, he's got to be good. Got to be big time. So, I also had interviewed one lawyer, because then I started to do some more research that you can look like super lawyers and you know all all these people but to come to find out these guys just pay to be super you know this is just but i went and met these guys in in ohio i met him at like 11 o'clock

at night because that's the time that i had got there and they stayed to two lawyers i wish i would have hired them i wish i would have had more money to hire them but they wanted like 20 grand up front another 20 grand um once the trial was over with because i was 100% taking it to trial just what I was going to do. I just didn't have the money at the time. And so I hired the guy from New York City. Worst mistake ever. I just don't think the guy ever just cared about me.

I should never fired my original one. So I go to there and to the courts with my new attorney. And he's still only four years. And I'm like, yeah, no, I'm not taking it. So my agreement I've always said was I don't want to do any prison time. But if anybody calls in or if anybody messes with any of my friends who I got involved into this or my kids' moms or anybody in my family, I'll take whatever deal it is they give me. so my buddy best friend from here in in florida i get him and his wife involved and they're some of the people that are going to pick up the western unions for me so he texts me and says hey listen uh call me so

i didn't see it it's like three hours later i'm at work i call and he doesn't answer so then he calls me like three days later and says who's this I'm like it's Roger he's oh he goes uh I got some people came to my house the cops came in my house and stuff now me not being a dummy I kind of put it together really quick the cops were probably with him when he tried to get a hold of me the first time right and then he didn't call me back until three days later because finally they can meet back up with him yeah and so he goes I don't know what to tell him what should I tell him I go.

I'm trying to get you on an obstruction. Correct. I go. Tell him exactly the truth. Right. Tell him the truth. That's exactly what I want you to tell him. The truth.

I go. And you can look at him right now and tell him I said to tell the truth. Right. He goes, what do you mean? I go, yeah, why don't you look at him right now and tell him I said, tell the truth. And he's, oh, well, so that I caught him off guard because now he kind of, I think he thought that I knew that he was probably. he was probably sitting there with him so um they they do so now we he hangs up and you know that's that then my son's mom in this story i don't know how true it is just you know there's some backstory to

her but um she's jogging um one day and one of the guy from the bcii stops her and starts questioning her and then says oh didn't you just drop your son off over there and then you know you're doing this and then yesterday so now in my head i'm like okay you know what i it's now it's just coming too close we're we're going to so the original deal that they had offered me two days before that was four years on a second degree felony so mon so now on friday i call my lawyer and I said, listen, tell them I'll take that deal. And Monday, I was supposed to start trial. So I said, tell them I'll take the deal.

So he calls me back and he says, uh, yeah, they said, no, they're not going to give you that deal. I said, what do you mean? He goes, now that it's this close, they're going to give you four years still, but it's a first degree felony. I go, dude, just call them and tell them. We'll take the, he goes, yeah, no, they're not going to, they will not do it. So I'm like, all right, screw it, I'll do it. And what's the difference? Because the, for me and my head, it was more or less like, it's the worst. Okay. First degree, you're intentionally doing something. Second degree, you happen to do it. It was by accident?

In my mind, it was just more, the first is worse than the second. Okay. So I think that's, and not only that, I think also just my stubbornness and my trying to still control the situation from the beginning when I got pulled over was I would have won, but now I'm bowing down and I'm allowing them still to win because they're giving them the first. I'm allowing them to still give me the first degree versus the second degree. Right. So I think it was just in my own head.

There's really no difference. Who cares? So the way the state of Ohio works is if you do less than five years is your sentence, you can get out as early as six months on what they call a judicial release. If you have to do, if your sentence is five years or more, you have to do at least half the time. so um i now know at this point i have 17 co-defendants every single one of them have talked to the cops every single one of them i was just the only one who didn't within people can look at it as oh yeah you know you're the man you did you know that's but i i still wouldn't change

the outcome that i have today i still wouldn't change it wouldn't have it wouldn't have it would not have benefited me talking to them maybe that one day if i would have went there maybe it would have but um what they what kind of sentences did they get so the the very first girl that got sentenced she got four years um and they knew that the owner was going to get more time so that's why they told me in the beginning four years to 10 years but they didn't know how much time he was going to get so i think that that's why they said four to 10 and i think that they were hoping that he might get seven and then i'll get seven they took the two big guys down right um but some of them got probation um and all this so so which i forgot so the the owners they had a daughter um who actually

had who had a brain tumor so they thought we were running a telemarketing room out of their home like they came in they thought we had like the secret room we were doing all this stuff there are people always coming in out that's because they had nurses like these are all things that they were that they were all bringing up you know in in my um discovery and uh so I was just like all right you know so finally I just came in I said I'll take the four years um and with the first degree felony so he says all right so now I fly out on Monday and the judge stands there and he says it reads me off whatever I don't oh engaging in a pattern or corrupt activity so which is basically it's a RICO case but a state RICO so I said he says how do

you plead and I just remember standing there because even still at that time I still almost just was like yeah no i like i not not guilty and i i said guilty and you know then he goes through his whole spiel and everything and i said yeah everything's all right he goes okay we're going to have you come back for sentencing which i think was like a month two months later so i go i go back home get all my affairs in order and i go to the gentleman who owned the dealership that I worked for is the largest one of the largest dealerships there um I explained to them that you know what I had going on and I was going to go and he said well how much you know how long it's probably like six months and I goes out yeah goes who cares so um I get I go now

August 19th I can't remember the year 2012 something like that um and I get to sentencing and they tell me they're going to give me the four years but I made sure that it said in my plea agreement that they will not fight my judicial release I made sure 100% that it said that um so I get there I get sentenced to the four years and it was just like immediately you could just feel like the you know just the whole weight was just lifted off there from the fight from the last two two and a half years so i get into there um i did nine months total because the way it works is you get six months and in after six months then you can apply for the judicial release they can take up to 30 days to answer you and then

after that once they answer you they could take up to 30 days to give you your judicial release hearing and you have to go all the way back to the jail where you were so whatever county it was so i applied after seven months my original attorney that i got he's the one who took care of my judicial release for no extra money um at all and that that guy i I should really should have. He had my best interest, you know, at heart, the whole time. Even though he still was saying, I think we could win if we went to trial. He always did have my best interest.

The second attorney, I just don't think that he did it all. I think that my own personal opinion is I just think that. the amount of money that he was charging me i think is probably some of the money that he was getting um he still thinks i still own some money but um no whatever but um i uh so he we get to everybody in prison is telling me yeah you know if you if they give you the hearing you're going home if not if they just if they just they'll just deny you and say yeah no we're not going to give you the hearing so i'm like yeah okay sure so obviously i get i i wait seven months then we do it and of course they wait 30 days to answer me then of course they wait

another 30 days for my for the date so it comes out to be nine months and um everybody's like yeah man you're you're you're going home you're i'm like yeah okay sure sure i am um i'm still very doubtful so i did know though that other people in my case my co-defendants they were getting out as well on their judicial releases so at this point um it's only the owner and i were the only two that are still left in prison and i tried to go to the same prison as him so that i would at least know somebody but i'm glad i didn't but um i uh i did my nine months i get to the the hearing and of course when you come back from prison you get to the county jail you got to sit in the county jail for like in solitary for however long two days three days so i sit there um i go to the

hearing and it's not the original prosecutors that i had that were there and um they said yeah they told us that um they don't want them to get out are you serious they're like yeah they they're telling us that they never had any agreement that that you know they were all of a sudden the judge picks up my original plea agreement and it was almost like he just got the whole well you better read this he says like head wave and everything you better read this and like what no sir sir we're just relaying the message and he goes yeah he's he's got to go um and so then they release me um and i was ready to walk right out of there getting a car and drive back home or Like I'm thinking, I'm done because I knew that they were going to transfer my probation to back home.

So when I got out, I only got two years probation. So I did my nine months and then I get two years probation, not parole or anything like that. And then I'm all done. So the three and a half years or whatever it is, it just goes by the wayside. So luckily I didn't because I come to find out I was supposed to go and check in in Ohio the next day, which I did that. I got everything transferred to New York. And in New York, if you do your probation, you only have to do 50% of your probation time and then you're good to go. As long as you don't have any issues.

Right. As long as you do what you're supposed to do. So I go there. I meet the probation officer. he's like all right you know whatever i think he just knew i'm not i wasn't your everyday person that he probably sees or anything like that i remember one day he comes knocks on the door and uh my girlfriend answered the door and he goes hey i was just checking he goes oh yeah he's sleeping and i could hear somebody who's knocking so i'm i'm getting dressed i was still sleeping i was getting dressed

and he goes oh no no he goes i see the men's shoes don't worry about it and he goes goes uh to leave and i'm like Oh, no, no, sir, I'm right here. He goes, okay, yeah, no problem. And then I was supposed to check in with them once a week. Then I got to once a month. And then I got to listen, buddy. I'll let you know. Yeah, I'll get, you know, and I was only on there for it for a year.

So he was, he was cool. He didn't bother me. So now I'm all done with probation. Two years goes by. And I'm working. I'm working at the dealership. And I'm doing, somebody's there picking up their vehicle. I'm doing paperwork. I'm putting their plates on. I go outside and all of a sudden these people

come out of this SUV, camera crew, big sign says, hey, we're here from, we want to know if you want to win fame and fortune. We're here from a game show. We're getting ready to, you know, film a pilot for it. And we're looking for contestants. I'm like, now I'm cool things. they're like you don't want to win fame and fortune i'm like no i literally i'm okay now i'm starting to get my my life back i'm you know they're like really come on this was two questions i'm like i fuck it come on what do you and so now i start to ask them well who else have you talked to because where it is it's it's it's a whole strip of dealerships and i know everybody that's on the strip they're like yeah we went over there like really who'd you talk to over there well

Well, you know, we can't really disclose that kind of information. It sounded like a game show. Right. So it was almost like the signs were definitely there. But I knew there was going to be a catcher. There was something, you know, right from the beginning. So they said, the only thing you got to do is answer two questions. And I'm like, all right, fine.

Come on. Let's go. So I can move on with my night. And they said, name one of the quarterbacks. that are playing this year in the Super Bowl. I said, Cam Newton. Yeah, congratulations. Yeah, yep, yep, that's one.

Okay, who is the first lady's name? And at the time, it was the Obamas. And I couldn't remember her first name. I don't know why just at that second, and I go, Mrs. Obama? Right. And they're like, no, no, no, no. The first name, I go, Michelle Obama.

They're like, oh, congratulations. Yeah, you got the two questions right, blah, blah, blah. so like we'll be in contact with you if you are going to be one of the contestants like all right so then I go back to work now they start emailing me yeah you know congratulations another red flag they tell me we're going to come on down to new york city everything's paid for you're going to do the filming at trump towers so we get our hotel all that stuff my girlfriend and I, we come down there to New York City. We fly down and they put us up in a hotel, go to the hotel.

Then the next morning, they're late to come pick me up. And I'm sitting behind the driver, and my girlfriend's sitting behind the passenger, but she can see whoever she's texting right over the seat. So she's texting me now. It's like, man, they're really mad at her. We're late, this and that. but they weren't saying anything in there. So anything suspicious.

They weren't saying anything in there. So we get to the place. Immediately, I was like, say Trump Towers. It was just like a rundown building that it just didn't make sense to me. I'm like, all whatever. I can't pull my phone on and say, hey, wait a minute. I thought we were going to Trump Towers to say, I screw it. I'll just keep moving.

But the entire time, I just knew there was some kind of catch. And they told me they were going to pay me a thousand. thousand dollars to be on this pilot so i'm like okay what's what's going to be the catch i they're not really going to pay me a thousand bucks so i i get in there and they're they're staging me all up for going on this pilot they got me walking down these stairs talking about hey you want to win money you're going to win fame and fortune they're like come on get some more excitement now anybody who knows me and that has seen the video the video you can't find it online i can't i just can't find it that the actual video of it anymore but um

anybody who saw the video goes that's not you could tell like you weren't really there all excited like you can tell you're a little reserved so they got me coming down the stairs you know all this acting that i'm gonna win all this money so then they're like okay everybody else is already here they'll do contestants already here you've already done all this stuff okay so they put me and now I'm starting to ask them questions the other two contestants there they're like hey you know what's going on did you guys yeah yeah we did and they were real quiet real hushush and knowing what I know today they couldn't talk very much probably because something would have came up so I'm on this game show I'm losing on this game show whatever questions is that the other

two contestants a whole game show a whole game show like actual contestants a um a um a um a um a host, everything. And actually standing in front of a podium with a buzzer, everything, I'm losing. I'm like, oh, man, I'm going to win fame and fortune this way. Right. So I, all of a sudden, they ask a question and you have to wait until they're finished asking the questions. And then you can, then you can buzz in and answer. well I don't remember what the question was but the answer was boiler room got it so it was movie clips

right boiler room was one of them both of wall street I know all of a sudden I'm making a comeback and I look over at my girlfriend and I must it I just she just knew you know this is it we're about to make a comeback yeah let's go then all of a sudden it pops up do we know is something along the lines of elderly man scams or gentlemen scams elderly or bilks them out of millions of dollars in a land scam or something like that. And this is right after Bernie Madoff. Bernie Madoff wasn't coming to my mind, but I knew that's what I wanted to buzz in and say, because I wasn't really, I was just like, I'm already on a roll. It's easy now. I got the answers to these.

So they're like, does anybody know the answer? No, no. The other two people, they were buzzing in like crazy before. Right. Now they're not buzzing in. And they go, Roger, you don't know the answer? No, I don't know the answer. All of a sudden, now all the lights come on.

It's you. I'm like, what? And they're like, yeah, you know, we've got some of your victims here in the crowd. um there was a crowd how many people i don't there i think there was like 10 people in the crowd okay but i couldn't see them when i came in there because the crowd lights were dark right and um so at this time i'm just i stand there and she's like i'm so-and-sell guerrero or something like that i think it was her name as their last name i don't remember what her first name was and she's like You know, we're here and we've got some of your victims in the crowd and blah.

We want to talk to you about it. Now, in that fast, I thought about kicking over this podium, running and drop-kicking the guy who came to my work and tricked me into going there. Now, I've already been off of probation for two years. this is way behind you correct it's it's way behind me i'm i'm now moving on and so but i don't do any of that i just walk over the guy who say hey where's my jacket and like he's just sitting there looking at me so now i'm above him where is my and finally i must have said a two or three time and finally it's over there in that room and now security's over there and they're you know so they got me all miced up and stuff

And I just put my jacket on. I got my suitcase. And my girlfriend, we walked down these stairs. Now we're in the streets of New York City. They still got their camera crew and all this. And they're like, the guy's like, give me the microphone, you know, the security guy. He's like, we're going to get you for theft. And he knew he was real close to me because he knew if I took it off, I probably would have threw it.

So he gets it right out of it. of my hand and then they're following me and my girl she's just like I I want she was like almost trying to fight them and upset and I can't remember like if she had a bag and she was swinging the bag at them or she was actually swing I just can't I can't I can't remember it's a little bit of a blur even even then but all of a sudden the guy who comes to my work says we do have a vehicle for you that will bring you back to the airports right over here and I turn around and go fuck you and I turned back around and I walked away so on the article if you read it and on the video it says and he's got one last statement for his victims fuck you right and I'm

like that's not how that went down oh I know yeah and I'm like I'm like I'm like I'm like that is not how that went down at all in the so now a couple weeks goes by and it airs um i was like a celebrity i got to half a day of work to go home to watch it um because they you know they didn't they didn't want me there you know when it when it aired or whatever just for my just for me Just so, because who knows how I would have been or whatever. So, you know, go home and, you know, I'll watch it. The worst part is, is I was supposed to get a promotion to business manager at the time. So like the finance manager, you know, buying the car and everything.

And once this happened, they were kind of like, man, we don't, we don't know. We got to let some of this stuff die down. And once that happened, I was just so angry, you know, at the place, you know, you guys know me that's you know you guys already knew that you held my job for me the owner writes a letter to the judge how my judicial release the manager i mean everybody you know so um i uh i i just get it i i go on the game show and you know i'm just like you got to be kidding me man like it's two years behind me right at least two years behind me and this was inside Addition. Inside edition. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. She comes, you know, it's inside edition. And a couple of the

people that were in the crowd, they go, my mom got or my dad got this. And I'm like, I'm like, no. Okay, first of all, I recognized the name. Right. I never even talked to them with me. Because, you know, you, you started to learn some of the names of the people, but I was just like, I, and still, at that time, I, I was just like, I didn't do anything wrong. Like, you know, for, for the longest time, I have, I have always thought that. And more in the last year to year and a half, I have started to think, like, like I said earlier, is all the shit that I went through. like growing up and all that kind of stuff and I was taking meds and all that kind of stuff till I was 18 and then I got back on it about a year year and a half ago is my mental health and you know I just never cared about it to the point to where I feel like my mental health and all I kind of in correlating that and trying to actually sit around and think yeah you know you did do some stuff that you shouldn't have done right was there some stuff that you did that

was okay sure again not illegal but definitely definitely unethical um but yeah i went i come to find out was inside edition and i said well well screw it i cashed the thousand dollar check and they did send you a thousand they gave it to me while i was there and the worst part is The worst part about it is, is they make me fill out like a 1099 sheet. And so on there, I'm like, you guys aren't going to get me for a thousand bucks. I put the wrong social security number down on the 1099 sheet. So after that, I'm like, oh, shucks, I probably shouldn't have done that. Right.

Because now I definitely look like I was doing something wrong. But yeah, they gave me a $1,000 check while I was there. I mean, I don't know how much the other contestants made, but what do you think? I noticed that on the article. Like, there's two different articles that I saw and both the video said video unavailable. Yeah. What do you think? So if you read, so there was a spot on there that you could read some of the comments.

And what inside addition, what all of the people who said on the comments was very, very, it was a lot of comments like, shouldn't have done that that's so trashy of you guys that guy did his time what if he left there and killed himself you know i don't think it was successful as what they wanted so i think they just took it down i don't know i don't know why because because when we when you and i talked you said hey you know if you can try to find the video and i even before that i couldn't find the video i haven't been able to find it in a long time but the if you click on that it says it's not available but it's got the still shot of me standing there behind the podium but i i don't know why you i can't find the video anywhere online because you see the price is right a clip from the price is right right

yeah yeah i can put your face on it yeah i wish uh yeah uh yeah i uh I wish I could find it, but, you know, because today I'd love to watch it and see where and study it. All right. Where were you an idiot and you didn't catch, catch on? But immediately, too, as soon as they revealed themselves, I was just like, okay, there's the catch. Right. Yeah, I was like, okay, I knew there was a catch.

There it is. All right, let's go. You know, I was just ready to go. I wonder what they thought you were going to do. Like, you know. They even said, hey, come on. We can just sit down and we'll just talk with you. Are you guys nuts?

You think I'm just going to sit here and chat with these people? Yeah, with them and you guys. No, if that's really what you guys wanted to do and you wanted those. victims to confront the person that scam them, then you would have just come to me and said, hey, listen, we'd like to do an article on you. Yeah, there'd be a lot. And it's a lot better way to go about doing it. Correct.

And that was the very, you know, that was a sleazy. What they did it was for ratings and for, and it was just a sleazy way of doing it. But I probably still wouldn't take that back either. And, you know, I'd probably still, you know, knowing what I know now, I probably still would have done it. I just probably would have done it a little bit smarter to where I, I out did them at the end instead of them outdoing me. But, you know, and then since then, after that, I've gotten some trouble here and there. But nothing. No, no, nothing, nothing real bad.

It was, it's, it's more or less just like family court nonsense with, you know, my kids' moms. I got three kids, three different moms, 19, 14, and my youngest is five. So, yeah, it's a lot of it. But, you know, fast forward to like three and a half years, I, you know, I just meet my wife. And now I'm just trying to live, live my life as on the up and up as I can. I hear you. what are you doing i'm over here trying to find the video it's gone look at this it's playing this guy is really worked up time to win some money oh how did you find it show called the game

thanks to a game show that we created you found it too now one of the contestants he just sent it to me yeah oh the targeted seniors in 41 states He did just over a year in prison, even though millions of dollars was lost. He has no idea that for him, the Game of Fame, is about to turn into the Game of Shame, and some of his victims are in our studio audience to give him a piece of their mind. This guy is really worked up. It's time to win some money. He's about to be a contestant on a new TV game show called The Game of Fame.

Or so he thinks, the real name of the show, that's right. Game of Shame. We rented out an empty theater in Manhattan and transformed it into a game show set, complete with podiums, lights, buzzers, a live audience, and, of course, a game show host. That would be our Lisa Guerrero. What Roger Van Doren doesn't know is that his fellow contestants are working for us. And sitting in the audience are some of his victims and their relatives who we flew in from around the country. Really doesn't even look like you. Moment to meet the contestants. Roger, what do you do? I'm a car salesman.

A car salesman. What kind of car? Used or new? Oh, both. You're good at selling things. Yes, ma'am. All right, let's see. Name the movie where a bunch of wannabe stockbrokers are taught how to lie, cheat, and steal over the phone.

The only people making money passing are NFL quarterbacks, and I don't see a number on your back. Roger. Boiler Room. Boil Room for 200 points. Correct. How did we know for sure he was going to answer correctly? Because investigators say he used the movie Boiler Room as a training video to motivate his workers to swindle old people. It was beyond a rip-off. It was truly a scam. It was stealing. I mean, they literally stole millions.

Who's that? Oh, that's one of the investigators. He's the slick telemarketer who took advantage of vulnerable senior citizens in a classic land scam that made millions. Do you need a hint? Roger, does this sound familiar at all to you? The answer is you. Roger Van Doren, and this isn't actually the game of fame, it's the game of shame. And I'm not a game show host, I'm actually Lisa Guerrero with Inside Edition.

And there are some people in the audience that have something to say to you, Roger. Roger, I still feel like you should be in prison. This guy says he lost $7,000 to Roger's phony land scam. Our dad was one of the thousands of seniors who were hurt. These three sisters saved their dad who suffered from dementia lost $30,000. What you did in the elderly is unconscionable. How do you sleep at night? And this 76-year-old lady lost $4,000.

Roger, do you have anything to say to the people that were some of your victims? No at all. Thank you, though. Are you sure because you went to prison and you never paid back some of your victims? Do you have an apology for them? Yeah. With my jacket. You hurt many, many people. You took people's entire life savings, Roger.

Do you think that's fair? Roger and his girlfriend grabbed their things and stormed off the set. We need the microphone, Roger, if you don't mind. Roger Van Doren only had one last departing message to offer. Here's what I got to say. Go f*** yourself. Nice. Wow.

Oh, man. When's the last time you saw that? man it's been a long time so i've seen that um you're going to shoot her to you yeah my wife would get a kick out of it because she's never seen the whole video oh my gosh um inside edition wow so i wonder where if we can pull that off yeah i can i i i can screen record this later or you can is there one you can dump the link into or is it not like that is it playing through the website i don't know it's probably not playing through youtube so i can i can try But worst case, I can screen record it.

Yeah, so now, yeah, what do you feel after watching that? It's just, it's just part of my life. It's just where I am. It is what it is at this point. You know, it's been, I have been, it's been over 10 years since, you know, I've even, I've been home, even off probation. I always wonder what people think that it's funny. it's like you go to jail for whatever two years five years 10 years and they had to tie they said over a year but um so somebody goes somebody does something wrong and they go to jail for five years

and then you get out and then they're like oh you got to pay all that money back wait a minute i just went to prison for five years like what am i supposed to do well and if you ask people how do you expect me to pay the money back they'll tell you like like every dollar you make from here on out should have to go to pay restitution. It's like, yeah, but wait a second, I have to pay my bill. Oh, that's your problem. No, no. Correct.

I have to pay my bills. And then they're like, well, every dollar other than your basic necessities should go to. It's like, no, no, wait a minute. Like, I still have to retire someday. Correct. I still have to live a life. And, you know, they had these unreasonable expectations and you're like, okay, but here's the thing. If I was in a car accident and I killed someone.

someone, I would go to jail for 10 years and I would get out and I'd continue on with my life. But because I have a financial crime, you want to make me whole. You want me to do the same amount of time that a violent criminal does and pay back all that money. But if I had sold drugs, I don't have anybody to pay back. So I just go to jail for five years and I get to live my life. Like, people are unreasonable with what they expect, or society in general for the most part is unreasonable for what they expect you to do to to fix these things and it's like if you'd wanted me to pay you back then you probably should have shown up with my sentencing and said don't go to prison your honor let's he's supposed to go to prison for 10 years let's make him pay as much

as he can within 10 years correct but they don't think that way no in in and for me i was not asked to pay any restitution at all right so then then to me that's that's the deal like if you guys have a problem you should go to the government correct you should go to them because they agreed i didn't have to me correct they the only person out of any of us that needed to pay restitution was ted the the owner okay he's the only person that they had asked to to pay restitution see that's funny because like the government will come in the federal government will come in and say oh there's there's 10 different uh conspirators and you guys stole 10 million dollars cumulatively and each one of you owes 10 million dollars and you're like well

no I should owe a million you know whoever can pay it off then that person pays it off for everyone else and you're like this doesn't make sense at all yeah that doesn't make sense at all like what if I never if Jim is an idiot and just never gets your shit together

again but I do because I'm a hustler I now owe Jim's rest it so Jim made three million dollars and I have to pay back his three million dollars like it's not set up it's not set up in a way that honestly benefits the individual and really benefits society in general like it sucks that these people lost their money you know that's that

that's you know that's a shitty situation it's a shitty thing to do in general but society says well then you have to go to prison okay i go to i went to prison now i'm out well and you have to do this correct even if i paid you then you know what it would be well uh well you and you have to pay me interest correct well i pay your interest now okay but then what well i could have invested that money into stocks and i could have made this like cut the fucking shit right you got it's got it's to stop somewhere right the truth is you're never going to be happy correct so it's got it has to stop somewhere right um and yeah for me it yeah this shitty it's it sucks that but the government is the person who makes that deal they made that decision they're the ones who made that decision

and that is the the decision that we had you know agreed to right so you know that's already done so me coming out and these guys you know saying the game show is funny that it is it is kind of funny it's scummy it's leased that's inside edition correct that's that's right that's them well i mean yeah i expect it but i didn't know that it was inside edition to begin with um you know what's funny is uh uh oh gosh tim um tom sigora or timsig tom sigora you know i'm talking about the comedian oh yeah yeah yeah yeah i think it's tom's gorebrook yeah the garth brooks thing so i was i've been watching more and more of his videos yeah because he says garth brooks is serial killer um and he's got and he he and because they've turned this whole thing into like a

a movement now um it was like front page of the newspaper of the inquirer and he held holds up the inquire he's like it's good to be vindicated he was and this is a reputable national publication this is reputable i mean it's the inquirer so it's like inside addition to me is the TV version of The Inquirer. Yeah, and I refuse to, I don't care if I see a commercial for Inside Edition, and I don't care how intriguing it might be or how I refuse. They're not getting my rating. It's just not going to happen.

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