Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - Inside Her Multi-Million Dollar Real Estate Scheme

Episode Date: August 7, 2026

Jacqueline a former title search company owner shares her journey from running a booming but ethically compromised mortgage and title business to being convicted of fraud and rebuilding her life after prison by founding a nonprofit that helps women reenter society. ⁣ ⁣ Connect with Jacqueline⁣ Website: https://evolutionreentry.org⁣ ⁣ Get 50% sitewide for a limited time. Just visit https://GhostBed.com/cox and use code COX at checkout.⁣ ⁣ Do you want to be a guest? Fill out the form https://forms.gle/5H7FnhvMHKtUnq7k7⁣ ⁣ Send me an email here: [e-mail]⁣ ⁣ Do you extra clips and behind the scenes content?⁣ Subscribe to my Patreon: https://patreon.com/InsideTrueCrime ⁣ ⁣ ⁣ Follow me on all socials!⁣ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/insidetruecrime/⁣ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@matthewcoxtruecrime⁣ ⁣ ⁣ Do you want a custom painting done by me? Check out my Etsy Store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/coxpopart⁣ ⁣ Listen to my True Crime Podcasts anywhere: https://anchor.fm/mattcox ⁣ ⁣ Check out my true crime books! ⁣ Shark in the Housing Pool: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0851KBYCF⁣ Bent: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BV4GC7TM⁣ It's Insanity: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08KFYXKK8⁣ Devil Exposed: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08TH1WT5G⁣ Devil Exposed (The Abridgment): https://www.amazon.com/dp/1070682438⁣ The Program: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0858W4G3K⁣ Bailout: https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/bailout-matthew-cox/1142275402⁣ Dude, Where's My Hand-Grenade?: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BXNFHBDF/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1678623676&sr=1-1⁣ ⁣ Checkout my disturbingly twisted satiric novel!⁣ Stranger Danger: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BSWQP3WX⁣ ⁣ If you would like to support me directly, I accept donations here:⁣ Paypal: https://www.paypal.me/MattCox69⁣ Cashapp: $coxcon69 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

It's so easy to steal. It was so ridiculous the way this system ran that I started to get. That criminal thinking, the client who stole 45 million from Meta, how is somebody able to steal $45 million? There's holes. I was dating the same guy since I was 15, 23, his girlfriend of five years called me on the phone, the night before a wedding, and yet I still married him. Really?

Yeah, yeah. How'd that conversation go? I remember her calling. You remember three-way calling back then? So I was on the phone with my... They still had three-way calling. Oh, they do? I don't know.

I have a cell phone. I don't know. But back and then, the three-three-we calling on that regular rotary, I was on the phone and the phone, I was on with my maid of honor. And the phone clicked over. So I said, hold on. So I go on the phone. She goes, you know who this is?

And I said, no, I don't. She goes, it's Melissa. you know, I could say his name, Tom, because he's my ex-husband, Tommy's girlfriend. And I said, I'm sorry because I've been his girlfriend since I was 15. Right. And, well, he probably didn't tell you. I took my keys, got my car, went over to the apartment where he was working, and my mother followed me. I'm telling you, I wouldn't have been in prison for a mortgage fraud.

I would have been in prison for, I would have hammered him over the head, with a pan if I could have at that point. But what does the idiot do? What do you think? Like, I'm married. Yeah. I married him. What did he say?

The next day. Did you mention it? You mentioned, obviously. He said to me, yeah. My bad. He said, oh, she's just my friend. Is that not, is that not okay? Yeah, no.

He's like, what are you talking about? We're just friends. Yeah. And I mean, really, you're just, let's go to see. Let's go to her house. Let's see. Mind you, the girl's like 16. So now I have an issue

Because I'm like Maybe they are just friends We go over there And he's sitting there Right now Right? I'm not you know And the thing is

They're pretending their friends Until he got up And knew where the glasses was He went and got himself a glass of water knew exactly where it wasn't the cabinet And I thought They're not just friends He just knew exactly where

The glasses were So she when you got there she said we're just friends? Yep. Oh, I thought it was, but on the phone. On the phone it was different, but then she was covering, he was covering. He's there in front of me. I'm scared.

I want to know what's going on. I want to know. And he kept saying, nope, we're friends. And then he got up, walked over to the kitchen, opened a cabinet, took out a glass. And I said, you're not just friends. How do you know where the glasses are? I don't care if you're just friends or not. And it was, and I had 400 people come to my wedding.

Italian, I didn't even know half of them how to speak. I mean, half of them didn't speak English. So I remember my mother saying to me, well, we do have 380 people coming. And my father's saying, just go on your honeymoon. And I just, I don't know, I just married him. Well, I mean, you, at least you knew up front about their girlfriend. Most people have to wait a few years. Yeah.

You know. Yeah. So I could hate him right up front. Yeah. Four or five years later. Then you find out, oh, you have a girlfriend. Oh, yeah. Our wedding was, you know, and now I look at the pictures and it's hysterical because my face is

the whole time. And I stayed married to him for 10 years, 10 years. And for 10 years, um. He's a legend. Yeah, he's led, right? He's the best has ever done it. Did you ever say he's a legend? I pulled it off.

Ten years. Legend. Sorry. Horrible. A horrible man. Yeah. He's definitely not a legend to this day. He's not a legend.

So what do you do when you're married and your marriage is shit and you think it's, you know, it's all facade? You have kids because they're going to fix everything. Yeah. So as we did, we had two beautiful kids. My son was born first and he's just something between a mother and a son.

He's your son. My beautiful daughter was second. So for a while there was great because I pretended he didn't exist. The daughter just found out. out. She could take, she knows. I'm like.

Take your leave you. All three of my kids, they know. Jimmy, we're close. They all say it to this day. They're like, really? You know, Thomas comes home and you roll the red carpet out. Where's our red carpet? No, it's funny because, yeah, I stayed married for 10 years, but we thought kids would

fix it somehow. And somehow it did because I didn't have to talk to him anymore. He didn't exist. My kids existed. It was wonderful. He works in theater. I worked in theater. He's a soundman for the Schubert Theater.

Oops. Now everybody knows who he is. I was going to say, do you want to give her a cell number? Oops. You do not cut that. Yeah, no, I did wardrobe. So it was kind of funny. So I moved to theaters.

I went to a different theater. And so we worked very opposite hours. Really, it was, you know what? I look back at it. I don't hate him. We were 15 years old. Neither one of us dated anybody else. We should not have gotten married.

We were really good friends, but we were never in love. When you got, how old were you when you got married, though? I was 22. Okay. Yeah. Well, the, and he's 22? No, he was 24. And the 24-year-old with a 16-year-old friend, that's questionable.

It was not, yeah. Questionable. Oh, well, you know, I'm a woman. So what does a woman do throughout your whole life when you make one mistake? You bring that up for 10 years. I brought that up to him. And I have a very big issue today with age. Very big issue.

If a guy is so much older than, you know, it does something to me. But I do recognize that we were just young. And he wasn't a bad, he wasn't a father. Never once missed child support. Never once. Stop seeing the kids. kids when he met his wife, which was pretty sad. He still has a relationship with my daughter. He does not with my son. But that makes me sad. He should. He should. But it is what it is. That's between

them. I try not to. So you eventually, so what were you doing by the time you got divorced? Were you still working in the theater? Or were you working at a title company at this point? No, no. I was working in a theater going to school. Really nothing. I was doing, he, he just wanted me home as a mother. I gained a lot of weight. I lost all my self-esteem. I didn't know who I was.

I was a mom. That's it. I was a mother. I went to every game. I went to every function. I went to every field trip. That's what I did. And I was self-employed.

I was always self-employed. I did some business consulting. I set up some businesses for people. But otherwise, I was a mom and working with theater. And theater is a lot of work. I mean, theater came back then, the Schubert Theater was the start of Broadway.

So we would do the opening for Broadway and then it would move to Broadway. So it would come in, we'd build the show, it'd be there for a month, we'd build it, we'd get it all ready to go to Broadway, then it would go to Broadway. So it's a lot of fun. We had a lot of fun.

And even though I really deep inside, couldn't stand them. He was still a friend. Right. We had a lot in common. So it was kind of a strange dynamic. It was a very unhealthy, toxic dynamic. So what,

so after that ends, what do you do then for work? I mean, I'm assuming you're not supporting yourself working. So, yeah, so I left and moved back with the parents. That's always a, I was a good. It's always a good day. Yeah. You know? Yeah.

I'm real happy when they came in. That's really the defining moment that lets you know everything's going right. Yeah, it was going perfect. I moved back from my case. I lost the house, you know, but I was smart. I took $3,000 they offered it in a deed and loo. So they said, you know, give us your house with all your cabinets. We'll give you $3,000.

Right. When, hello, if I took the cabinets and sold them, I would have made more than that. But in reality, I just wanded out of it and moved back to my parents. And I was lucky that I did have them. in a way, you know. So I moved back to a situation with two kids where I had to be home by 11. I'm thinking, okay, I'm 32 and my parents wouldn't babysit unless I was working. Right.

So I'd have to hire a babysitter to come babysit if I wanted to actually go do something. So I pretty much didn't do a lot of anything except start a new company. And I had nowhere to go. I didn't know what to do. My brother owned a title search company. I had been a notary public. He was doing mortgage closings with notaries. So he said, you know, you want to do some notary?

I can get you extra work. And I'm like, okay. So I went in, I started doing notary because I was doing six a day, six notary closings a day, make really good money. Yeah, I was going to say, what does that pay? Are these? 100 bucks, it was 100 bucks then, back then for a notary. Does it five or six hundred bucks a day?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, they don't need to do anything else. Yeah, I was. pretty happy with it. You think. But I started recognizing, my brother wasn't very good at running a company. So he brought in this girl, a friend of his, that's a wife, a friend of his, to run the company for him.

So he gave her 50% of his company. And I started seeing she was stealing money from him. Right. So I'm like, you know, I said to him, I think she's stealing money. So she fired me. Right. So I'm like, okay. What am I going to do?

So I started my own company. Was she still in money? Yeah, she was. Okay. She was stealing money. Yeah, that comes out later. But I started, yeah. I'm sure you never mentioned that to your brother.

No, I did. That's why I got fired because I told him. Yeah. After she got caught. Again, I'm a woman. Of course I'm going to throw back in the space. Yeah, yeah. Right?

Did I tell you? But what I did was I had to look at it a different way. My brother's title search company only worked for attorneys. And it wasn't going to hear. hurt him. So I said, okay, what can I do? So I decided to cut out the middleman. I went to title companies. I said, I'll do your title search. I did not know how to title search. So I was doing notary closings. And one of my clients said, you know how to title search? Of course I do. And he's like, all right, we're going to send you a few. He sent me 42 title searches.

And I'm like, shit, I better get to town hall and figure this out. There's no YouTube. Yeah, there was no, you know. Can't look it up on YouTube. Yeah, and back then, nothing was even online. So you had to go to the grantor grantee books. You could not just pop it up on a computer like you can't today. It took me about a couple hours. I figured it out. It's not very difficult. And then I started getting really, really good at it and started hiring people and hiring people.

And then my brother's company went out of business. And he stopped speaking to me. I didn't mean to drive you out of business. I was trying to help you. Yeah, I was trying to help him. I never went to an attorney. But, right. What's the same?

Ben. Ben. Here's what I'm going to do for you, Ben. I'm going to give you a hundred bucks of clothing. You come work for me. 75, because I'm still a little salty about you fired me because of this chick that rang out of business. But the thing is, my brother was best title search company in Connecticut. Title searcher in Connecticut.

So I really didn't need him because my other searchers were idiots. So it's kind of like I really need some good searchers. And so I never, no, I never made him feel. that way. He wasn't speaking to me for so long. And so when he closed, I just said to him, I really need you. Right. I need you to come here and help me. So he did. And he did help me. And he did bring our level of clients to a different, now I was able to go after attorneys because I wouldn't then. And business started booming because it was like 2006 at this time. Right. And 2006 houses were, I mean, it was booming.

For about a year and a half. Well, yeah. And then, you know, my girlfriend needed a job. So I'm like, oh, sure. We'll hire you. You can be my business manager. And then my niece needed a job. And she became our notary closing person.

We were doing about 20 a day, 20 closings a day at that point. And then we brought in, yeah. So you're just doing closings. You're not the tight. Are you, do you open a title company? Do you become a, do you actually? Yes. Okay.

In Connecticut. You have to have an attorney to issue titles, different from New York. Right. And so, yeah. You don't have to have an attorney here. Yeah, see, see. And in Connecticut you do. So I had a friend who was an attorney.

I said, like, I'll give you 49% of the company. I need an attorney. We can't do title. I don't really, I'll give you 49% of the company, and we can open up the title side. And then I became a loan officer. And I went to work for Wells Fargo and GMAC. I learned how to do, so we brought in our own mortgage company,

mortgage, so we had a one-stop shop. It was mortgages, title, title searches, notaries. We were booming. I had over 50 people working for us, mostly family. And wasn't recognizing that my niece was giving out the notary portions of it less than I was making because she just wanted to get it filled. So the money, we were losing a lot of money. What do you mean she was giving out the note?

So we would get like a hundred bucks for a notary. Right. We'd have to find a notary to do it. So we had this whole list of a notary because nobody ever was independent contractors. If a notary would say, well, I'll do it for 125. She said, okay, just to get it done. Right. And then.

I can see that every once in a while. Yeah, no. It was just wrong business. It was my fault because I went, I was a loan officer now. I wasn't really paying attention because it was growing so fast and my whole family was there and I just wouldn't. Right now for a limited time, everyone's part of the Buick team, even you. Buick's employee pricing for you event is on now.

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That's my whole problem in life. I won't fail. Right. I won't quit. Not fail. I won't quit. So I'm thinking, okay, how can I fix this?

In the meantime, business was doing great, but we were. I sold the most. loans for Wells Fargo in a one-month period and made the least amount of money out of all the loan officers. And nobody seemed to tell me, like, you're not really good at this because I just, I have a hard, I can't close.

Not a good closer. So I'm a good figuring things out, but I can't, I can't close because I felt bad, especially if there's kids. I'd have women come in with their young kids. I can't charge this one point. You can't afford the mortgage. I felt bad. So I said, okay, I got to fix this about hurting anybody.

I took a mortgage on my house. Okay, I'm going to take this mortgage out, put it on the payroll, because I would not have made payroll that month. I'm going to put it on the payroll. That was smart, right, don't you think? Take a mortgage out of your house, put it on the payroll. Oh, wait, I didn't tell my husband. Yeah, no, I figured he didn't need to know that.

And did it in like a week. because there was no income, no verification mortgage. Is this a new husband? This is a new husband. Okay. Yes, this is a husband that I met from the new, I moved into a condo. Okay.

And him and his daughter were living there. And I remember moving. He came with the condo? Yeah, he was the next door neighbor. He was the next door neighbor with the big cat. This is a three bedroom, two bath. It comes with a husband and a stepdaughter. We pull in in the middle of the snow

And my son looks at me He goes, we can't move here And I said, why? He goes, Alexa was here And that was his daughter. And I'm like, but I like, but he liked her. Oh no, no, no, no. Now they're best like this.

But he was a single dad. So immediately I thought, that's kind of odd. Why is he a single dad? He must be a widower. But no, he wasn't. Some people just get divorced. Yeah, but what,

dad's has the kid has the kid full time right it's the mom's like a derelict or drug addict yes yes yes but that didn't occur to me i just thought he was a widower and and he was a cutie and i stalked that hell out of them it's a way to do it yeah that's how i do it i did too yeah he'd be walking across and i'd be like i never stalked anybody for because i wasn't the good looking girl i'd always be the one in the background so i'd you know stalk them and he'd be walking the dog and i'd be like I'm, damn. That's why I'm married right now. She told me I don't date guys like you.

It's not going to happen. Get it out of your mind. I thought, you don't know my stalking strategy. That's your problem. That's exactly right. I know you. I know you. I see you.

That's right. I see it. I wear them down. Right. That's what I did. I had a softball team. I managed the softball team and the co-ed softball. Too much men, too many men all the time.

Right. I cut half of them. I said to my first baseman, Sorry, you got to go. And I said, do you play softball? Because I'm really short for guys. And that's pretty much, was it after that. He came down, played softball.

No one else on the team talked to me because I cut them. But we became really good friends. And I loved his daughter. And I ended up adopting his daughter after we got married. Oh, okay. Yeah. Got rid of him, but I'm keeping the daughter. Like, really I would today.

It's been 20 years. Yeah, 20 years today. You know. No, so yeah. So I just, it's kind of like I fell in love with him. I was the first guy I ever met that actually supported me. Like he didn't want me to stay in the house and cook. He, I was a single mom and I owned a business.

And so what do I do? I hired him. Right. Trained him, hired him. So now brought him in before we got married, we bought the house. And. You seeing this? Yeah, he's seeing it now.

Poor guy. I pull him into everything. I know it's terrible. It's a strategy. Yeah, it is the strategy. Yeah. So I know that when you own a business, the house isn't going to be in my name.

So we bought it together. I said, we're going to transfer it to your name. Do you think that stopped me from getting the mortgage? No, because I'm the idiot. I'm thinking I'm going to just sign his name. on a house that I really didn't legally own. Right. Take this mortgage out.

Not one person ever spoke to him. Nobody asked to speak to him. Nobody wanted to speak to him. There's no income, no verification mortgage. I signed a paperwork. Within a week, I closed, got the money, transferred into the business account. And hey, we were okay.

Not realizing that sooner or later, that was going to run out on top of me having to pay a new mortgage, on top of our first mortgage. Because he couldn't know because I'm screwed up so bad. I'm thinking, okay, I fixed this how to, it'll be fine. It'll be okay. What year was this?

This was in 2007. Okay. 2008 came. Things are going bad. It went bad. Yeah, our mortgage, the guy who was running the mortgage company imploded. He was just like, I'm out of here. And then the attorney, my partner came in one day.

He was in the front page of the paper. I just want to be honest with you. He puts the paper down. There he is. Why? He was getting looked at for a separate deal for his own law firm about this, this, this, he was the executor of this will who had to, I won't go into it too much. I don't like to disclose it's his story to tell. But he was doing some shady shit.

So I went over to him, the attorney across the hall. And I said, he goes, I told you not to just give him 49% of your company. Right. Yeah. you know, he's going to start getting looked at. And once he got looked at, First American audited his books. When they audited his books, his title books,

they saw my mortgage and trickled down. And I was his paralegal. So now they took my computer. Well, every loan on that computer that wasn't right was going to now trickle down into the mortgage task fraud of 2008. And I knew that. What mortgage other than your mortgage?

Oh, every mortgage he did was, he was a crook. Every mortgage. You skipped that part. Yeah, yeah. Well, the front paper. Right. Yeah. Yeah, he was doing not only my loan.

It was a bunch of other loans that were on there that had gotten in trouble for. And. For what reason? Same reason. Same exact, lying on an application. Okay. Just lying on the application, misappropriating the funds. So that was my crime was I lied on my application. I overstated my income and I misappropriated the funds. So what are most people doing? Is it like owner occupancy fraud or is it cash back? Like, I mean, you guys are setting up deals so that you can give people cash back or is it?

No, I wasn't setting up any illegal deals except for my own to fix the situation. the deals he was setting at, they weren't illegal at the time. They were so unethical because they were no income, no verification, subprime that people couldn't afford that you know they were going to go under within.

But these ruthless, these attorneys and realtors and they didn't care. Mortgage brokers. Yeah, mortgage brokers, really. It was really the mortgage brokers. They didn't care. They were charging points on points and then prepayment penalty points.

So, you know, oh, you get a prepay on there. I'll give you an extra $1,000. If I know the guy's going to go under anyway, no reason I shouldn't throw a couple points on. It's not going to change much of it. It's not going to change a thing for this guy. Right. Well, the thing is.

He said he could afford it. Yeah. You feel comfortable with this? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay, you're sure. Absolutely great. Well, the problem was it wasn't even that.

It was the notaries because now they're sending notaries to close these subprime loans. Well, notaries were ethical. So they'd be at the closing table. and they'd say, I wouldn't sign this loan. So now the loan officers had to call the notaries up, say, hey, I'll throw you a 500 if you get this closed. Right. So they had to up the ante because notaries were selling them down the river.

Like you have a three-day right of rescission. Why don't you keep the paperwork? Take a look at it. Really look heavy to see if you want to do this. But instead, the loan officers were giving incentives to them. And on top of that, you had Wells Fargo with a robo signing of, assignments going on consistently that it was it was just reckless that it imploded so badly so quickly i'd say a notary has a one shot of telling a client i wouldn't sign this and i would that

they would never get another they would never get another deal i mean from the loan officer but we have so many i yeah i would have been like yeah or you're sending no you're not sending Kelly, not on my loan, you're not. Yeah. No, she's, she's downright ethical. She's right. Exactly. And I was one of those people who was always telling people not to sell loans.

And here I am, the unethical, illegal one who just took out of illegal mortgage on our own house paying payroll. So I was, you know, so we were still sustaining an unsustainable business. But I didn't have to tell my parents that everybody else we were closing so they had to get out. So I thought I was doing a good thing. and I was not self-destructing so bad. I started taking clonopin, you know, you start taking that just to go to sleep at night.

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Because my mind would race and race and raise and race. And the sickness that I would feel in my stomach knowing, how am I going to pay payroll? Oh, wait, I can make payroll if I don't pay the mortgage that I stole until last month, until the next month. You know, it would always be late in chasing that one after another time. But aren't you also getting, you're getting money, like, are you a part of this? the rebate that's given for like if I if if if the title insurance costs 1,200 bucks like you're getting six or seven hundred bucks back you're not this guy is getting yes because in Connecticut

you can't be in business with a non-attorney so I didn't know that when I did the deal if you're an attorney you can't be in business with a non-attorney so the title portion of it the illegal horrible unethical today to still title portion of it the attorney is making more money than anybody, although he'll seem he's not, you know, because he's making 60% of the title policy. And then he'll sell you a fake owner's policy to get another 60% out of you. So now he's making, you know, plus the $600 fee, plus the ancillary FedEx fee of $400 and the, you know, all those other fees. Yeah, yeah. I was going to say, I dated a woman who was a manager of a lawyer's title.

And she had explained to me because I was always like, you know, how are you guys making any money? Like you're charging 400 for this, like 200 bucks. Like you're you're making $600 and she's like plus the plus the title insurance policy. I'm like, well, that goes to the, you know, but that goes to the title company to the insurance company. And she's like, oh, no, no, no, no. The this out of this 1500 bucks, she's like, we're getting like 60% or 70% of it back.

And I was like. Right. Really? So suddenly it went from, you know what I mean? Suddenly it's like, you're getting a thousand bucks back. And she's like, yeah. So you get a thousand and you're making six. So before where I felt bad for you. And I was, remember the, they used to always, if there was a would come down to money, they would always go, listen, I know we're struggling over money. We'll throw in, we're going to go ahead and throw in $200 or $600. And you were always like, oh, wow, that's so nice. Thank you so much. Listen, when I found that out, And we were sitting there going, you know, arguing over somebody's fee or something. I'd be like, listen, I'll throw in a thousand. You throw in a thousand. You guys throw in your whole fee of 600. And they'd say, well, that's our whole fee. We won't make it.

Stop. Stop. Because I'll go right now. Yeah. You're making 60% of it. And then you can see them. They'd always look like, fuck. Like, who told him that?

You know, they'd get upset. So you're throwing it. You're whole fee. Yeah. And by the way, that owner's policy, you don't really need it. And then you're like. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

No. No, I never let anybody get the policy. I was like, stop it. It is. And the thing about it is, is title insurance companies don't pay out. Because guess what happens? If there's a problem with the title search, I get sued. The title searcher.

I have to carry a million dollar E&O insurance. Oh, I was going to say, every policy, every time we've ever had a problem, the title insurance did pay. Well, no. You put a notice to the title insurance that they pay. They then sue the attorney. They said they then sue the little guy, the title searcher. who's not licensed. Well, keep in mind, the only time, the only person I've ever had issues with, it was all,

we just, we close so much through lawyer's title. Yeah. And keep in mind, lawyers' titles own people are going down. Oh yeah, because they all in prison. Right. Yeah. So they're, so they're not suing themselves. Yeah.

So they're sitting their own employee. Oh, yeah. The title, title, um, searchers took a huge hit. Um, our E&O insurances every year were going up and up and up and up because we'd make a little small. mistake and we get sued for that mistake. So the title insurance isn't really paying out. They're going down the line. So it's a trickle down effect. The attorney doesn't make any issues because the attorney's, that's why the attorney doesn't do the title search. They hire an outside title

searcher because who's got the responsibility now, the whole gamut, the title searcher. And I mean, that's what I do now. I have a title search company. And it's still, it's, it frustrates me all the time because we're not licensed. We're not regulated. No one looks at us. I love your commercial. Like, no one's watching. Nobody's watching. No one's watching. No one's looking.

Nobody's even, even today. They're not looking. You feel safe. You're living in a fantasy. It's so horrible. It's true. It is true. I was going to say, I had a closing one time with this woman.

It's funny. I never mentioned this woman, by the way. Her name's, I remember her name to this day. Wifini Vines. She had to be, she's a bigan. You know what I'm saying? She was a big in. She came in like curlers in her hair.

I mean, a moo-moo. You know what a moo-moos? Yeah, yeah. The old Italian moos. Fuzzy slippers. And she was on Section 8. Wow. We did the loan.

So this woman, and I knew she was buying a house through a friend of mine that was an investor. And this was the first house he's flipping. And, you know, it's funny because the photos of the house, like it looked good. You know? So I don't know what the amount was. Let's say 100,000. I forget. But she's buying it.

She was putting down 5%. He was holding a fifth. No, he was holding, I think a 10% second mortgage. Okay. And that she was never going to pay. Right. Was it a bridge, like a year? No.

It was like, it was like 10 years. But we know she's not paying. Yeah, right. Yeah. So and she knew, he's like, you know, just for the, you got to sign it, but you don't have to pay payments. Yeah. Yeah.

She's putting down 5%. didn't have her 5% by the way. Like this was one of these loans where you didn't have to have the money in the bank for 60 or 90 days. You just had to show up with them. You show up a gift letter. Right. Look, this person gave me this money.

You didn't have to source it. Just here it is. What we actually did was I said like, how much money does she have in the bank? And he was like, she's got this much money, like $1,000 or whatever. Let's say, let's say $1,500. So we had, he deposits $1,000 in her bank, or I think he deposited $1,000 in the bank account. we get a letter. Then we get a letter from showing she pulled a couple of, or $2,000 out of the bank. And she had $500 that she wrote a check a couple days beforehand that came out of the $2,500.

So basically, and then we deposit that she puts the money back in her bank account. He deposits $2,000 into the escrow account. So now there's, so it's really the same, the same $1,500, using the same $1,500. $1,500 over and over and over again. So when I show it, it's like, here's the letter $1,500 in the bank. Here's the $500 deposit. Here's the $2,000, you know, whatever. I'm like, that's $5,000. That's the 5% down.

And they were like, fuck, it does look like 5,000. They were like, yeah, okay. So they accept that is a subprime loan. They give her an 85% loan. She's a, she's a, she, it said she was a nutritional specialist. She was a lunch lady. And she made just, enough money. She also got money for her kids, social security disability. So she got that money.

Like she literally made like the, the, the, the, the, the DTI had to be like 40% or something. And you got to push through. Or it's like 45%. Like literally she was right at 44.9%. I mean, it was, oh, and she's on section 8. So I had to call up her landlord. He, no, he called me. He's like, I got this verification of rent. He's, you know, she's on section 8, right? She's buying a house. And I was like, I was like, yeah. And now the boyfriend is really, he's telling me, I'm going to make the payments. But I got bad credit.

She's going to pay, though. And I'm like, okay. And I remember telling him, right? He said, yeah, man. I go, yeah, but you do get paid, right? So, yeah, Section A pays me. I go, well, wait a minute. Do we have a job?

Wafini Vines is the person that arranged for you to get paid. I'm just saying, do you receive, that document is saying, do you receive $700 a month for her rent. It doesn't ask where that money's coming from. He's like, yeah, bro, this woman's a pig. Because I'm telling you right now, this place is trash. She's going to do, she should not be getting a mortgage. And I said, I said, you'd like to get her out of your house, wouldn't you?

And he's like, yeah, actually, I would like to get her out of it. That's the whole thing. The lease is coming up in like a month or two. That's probably why she's trying to buy this. I go, right. So what's going to happen when she doesn't get the mortgage and doesn't leave your house? Where do you think she's going? And he was like, I said, your best bet is to just answer that correctly.

And get her out of your house. Get her out of the house. Right. I said, it's a mortgage company's problem, bro. Yeah. And he was like, all right, let me think about this. All right, all right, hangs up. I get it back.

So now he's verifying, like, everybody's doing, it's all legit. And I remember thinking this has to be legit. Yeah. Because this woman's going under. Yeah. And they may look into this loan. That's right. And I'll never forget.

Do you remember, did you ever heard a, oh gosh, it was called. the mortgage warehouse. Of course. Okay. So this is mortgage warehouse was right. It was not far from my office. Oh God, they went under so hard. Oh man.

They did. So what happens is we go to closing and we close. Now, they go to closing and they close. At the closing, the investors. Which, by the way, were mostly countrywide and invested in the mortgage warehouse was the same very companies.

that went under right after. Yeah, no, I'm talking about the investor that, the guy that was flipping the house. Oh, okay. So the investor shows up, and when they do the title work, they even say to them, like, everything okay? And they're like, yeah, why? They're like, yeah, it's title. No problem with the title.

They were like, no, why? And they said, oh, nothing. Here's the thing. When they bought the house, they knew it was on the condemned list. Oh, wow. Now, they renovated the house. These guys are, are AC guys. So they put in ACs.

Oh, wow. And they renovated the whole house. They don't have any idea what they're doing. Let me tell you, that's a given example, is that I remember they put plywood up. So you've got to put in the new tub. Yeah. They put plywood up. And then they tiled over the plywood.

So when wife, and they put up the cabinets, they just drilled into the drywall. They have no clue what they're doing. But did it look good? The pictures looked amazing. There you go. But I found out later that Wifini, when she and her kids started taking showers and stuff, and there were many kids. There's like six kids, two adults living in this house. It's like a three-bedroom, one bath.

So I remember they said that the plywood swelled up and that they would be in taking showers and the little four-inch-by-four-inch tiles would go, ping, and pop off. they would like drop off and fall and then there's mildew like you're just supposed to be flywood I'm supposed to greenboard or concrete board or something like what are you doing? And they just completely had no clue.

And so anyway, what happens and so they asked about you because they knew there was a condemnation on the title and they figured so what they told me later was I was like, okay but you knew this. They said, yeah, we knew it. And we kept waiting for them to tell us about it.

So we were going to have it inspected. They said, but we didn't want to call the inspector because we knew we hadn't pulled any permits. And the inspector would find it. Right. And they said, so we were thinking we'll, if they, if title company finds it, we'll do, then we'll go through that route. But they never said anything.

They said it was fine. And anyway, so regardless, it closes. It closes. Three months later, I get a phone call from, what was his name? From Harold, one of the investors, says, hey, man, they call you yet. And I go, did who call? He was the news. And I went, what news?

What are you talking about? You call, bro, Wifini Vine's house. Like, what do you mean? They bulldozed it. What a name? I said, what? I can forget. I can't remember anybody's name, by the way.

Wifini, Vine's the best name. It's the best name. And I'm like, what do you mean? They bulldozed it. He goes, yeah, yeah, bro. He's like, so they pull up with the thing and they knock on the door and they say, what are you doing in the house? and she's like, I bought this house, and they're like, this is on the condemnation list.

So they send people down and they put her in a motel room and they bulldoze the house. Wow. I said, what are you talking about? It wasn't condemned. He was, no, no, no. And then he tells me what happened. And I'm like, holy shit. And so when the inspect, it's been three months.

When the inspector comes in, he could, he, he says this house was condemned. I don't know how you're living here. I don't know how it got sold. But when he walked through the house, the cabinets are sitting on the floor. They've fallen out of the kitchen. It's moldy all inside the bathroom on the walls. Their tiles missing. It's just, it's gutted.

Like they've, they've destroyed this house in three months. And they're like, it was condemned. The last time I saw it two years ago, it's condemned now. Get out of the house. They call the police. The police push them out. So there's the news camera comes out because Wifini calls the news. They come out.

By the time they come out, they're bulldozing the house. So she's now living in a motel. For free. I don't know what I don't know about that. I don't know what's happened with that. I just know that these guys are panicked because they're getting phone calls from the news. And mortgage warehouse is calling me saying we're going to take, we know there's some kind of fraud. That house was condemned.

I'm like, you said, I don't know. You said, you said, you saw the types of these pictures were doctors. No, those pictures are. real. Like you are, you guys sent, we gave you the appraisal and you sent your own people out to look at it. Like, because you didn't trust us. You looked at it. Your own people gave you a drive-by review. So, and I'm, I'm yelling at them, but I'm also thinking, and I remember the guy said to me, and never forget, he said, Matt, let me tell you something. He said, we're going to go through this with a fine tooth comb and we're going to figure out where the fraud is because we know you had to

commit fraud because I've seen that woman. I talk to her. There's no way she qualified. I said, listen, out of every loan I've ever done ever, this is the one I want you to go through. That's right. Because what's the, she's my girl. Because I remember thinking every piece of paper in that loan, because I knew this is going under. You're going to make a couple, two, three thousand dollars, but this woman's, there's no way she's going to make these payments. She made every payment.

Did she really? She had, was only three of them. Yeah, right. Right. But either way, and she had paid. So it's like she paid. The down payment's real. they can't tell that the money she had homeowners insurance but i don't think but that didn't cover it

so here's what covered it what ends up oh by the way i did the news shows up at the house at the my office they said can we talk to you about i said absolutely because i haven't done anything wrong yeah so i'm more than willing to because they're talking now everybody's like oh fraud oh no no no though come so i get i get interviewed by the news they said and i forget how it went but it was like hey you did the loan for Wifeini Bines, yes. And they're like, have you seen photos of the house? They show me photos of the inside. They pull up the camera.

And I'm like, oh, wow, that's not what I've seen. I show them the appraisal. I have an original appraisal. I show them all the photos. They're like, oh, wow, that's not. Yeah, go back to the appraiser. So the appraiser said, I've never been to the house. Did she qualify for the loan?

Absolutely. They go, well, you know, she's getting social security disability. I said, yeah, she gets some subsidies, but she's had been on her job for four years. She's a, they're like, she's a lunch lady. I'm like, well, she told me I was a nutrition specialist. She makes this much money. She qualified for the loan. I'm like, that's the mortgage company.

I said, that's the lender qualified. She made processor. Yeah, I said, so I don't understand what's happening. And they were like, well, now the house has been bulldozed. Like, it was condemned. I'm like, well, I don't know. That would be the title company. I simply processed the paperwork.

They said, well, does she have to? So they said, so does she have to make these payments? I go, oh, I said, absolutely. She's still responsible for the payments. But I'm sure it will all work out. And they go, okay, thank you. They leave. That night, we know it's going to be on like the 6 o'clock news.

We turn on 6 o'clock news. And here's what they clip. They edit. They changed. The magic of editing is Wifini Vines holding their kid with a couple other little snoddy kids holding on to the moo-mo as they bulldoze her house. And she's, ah! Oh, my house! And I'm going, I'm watching it like this.

And the person, whatever, is saying, you know, the person from the city is like, just been condemned for years. We don't know how she got a mortgage on this property. And then they clip to me going, oh, she qualified for the loan. And then they said, does she have to make the payments? I'm like, oh, no, she's still responsible for the payments. Clip. I look like a fucking monster.

Like a monster. They've got Wifini. She's living in a... Wifee looks so great. She's living in a motel. Listen, she's a... She's an overweight black woman with like six kids, and I am the monster white person. Don't tell me you had a suit on at the same time.

No, I had a shirt. Nobody wears a suit in Florida. I had probably a shirt, like a, but not shirt. I definitely look like the white guy you want to hate. Deservedly after that cut. So here's what's funny is that a month goes by. And mortgage warehouse finishes their audit of my file. They hated you more now.

No. The their account executive comes walking in my office and walks in. I remember she was huge. Not big, but she was like six foot tall. She's one of these chicks. I was scared. Five ten and wears heels. And she looks like a supermodel, right?

And I haven't seen her in months. You know, because she's there like, don't go over there again. He's banned. She walks in. She says, guess what? And I go what? She said, you cleared the audit. I'm like, really?

Really? I'm like, nice. And they were like, yeah, we just got paid. She said, we just got paid back. And I went, you got paid back? She said, yeah. She said, the title insurance company paid us. She said, because they told us it was clear title.

So I pick up the phone and I call Joe at lawyer's title. Okay. And I said, hey, man, what's going on? He said, hey, I said, you guys just paid them, right? And he's like, he's like, yeah. I said, well, whatever happened? He said, okay. So when the city filed the condemnation, they had the wrong, they had the wrong, they had

the wrong legal description. Like it's literally off by like a, it's off by even a pet one. Yeah. Yeah. It was off one. It was like lot one. Oh, trust me. They just, the four was gone and we missed it. Yeah. And she said, just, just a mistake. He said, so we paid her back. I said, okay. I said, okay. And so I hung up the phone and I call up Harold. Harold hears it. Harold's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's like, yeah, yeah. He's like, yeah. He said, uh, Joe said, everything's okay. I said, yeah. He said, yeah, it's great. And I said, okay. And I go, didn't you have a second mortgage on that thing for 10 grand? And he was like, yeah, yeah, it was a phantom second, though, because I kept telling him,

phantom second's the word you used. Yeah, right, yeah. He didn't even know what a phantom second is the first house he's flipped. And by the way, he's already flipping other houses now. And because this one worked out well, because they made a chunk of money. They had to. They fixed it up over a weekend with some spit and cock. So, so, and remember they bought it for like 25 grand.

They made like 40, 50 grand. This is crazy how much they make. I know. And I sat there. I said, oh, okay. I said, but you have it. He said, yeah, it's a phantom second. I said, yeah, I know that.

But it's a lien that's on the title. How did it clear? And I said, well, I said, it's a lien that's on the title. I said, and lawyer's title insured it. And I said, they just paid off the first. They can't not pay off the second. It's a defective title. Right.

I said, they've already admitted that they made the mistake. And he went, huh. yeah you know what should i do i said call joe he was yeah but joe knows i think he knows that i said oh he knows but he can't say that no he can't he's got to put in the claim and he goes like all right he hangs the phone like five 10 minutes later joe no joe calls me it goes you motherfucker did you just did you just i said joe i don't know i should she's not paying him bro and he's like you know damn well like well you should write that down you're not writing that down you know she was never going to i don't know nothing i don't know nothing i

I know I got a second mortgage here. I got an investor. He needs $10,000. You guys did a bad loan. You already told me. You already told me you screwed up. So they cut him a check for like $10. And the whole time, in the background,

guess who lost their job? The title searcher who missed the little thing on the legal description. And I feel bad for her. I do. I feel bad about that. I do. Yeah. That's my life.

It's a horrible situation for her. What about poor Wifini? We don't know what happened. I don't care about Wifini. She knew she couldn't afford the place. She did afford it. She paid every payment. She made every payment.

Did she make the payment? of the phantom? Well, she was never supposed to. Well, see, there you go. You're never supposed to. But nobody knows that. Nobody can say that's not legit. Well, we gave a similar situation.

We gave the mortgage to a, what does she work? She was Friendly's, waitress. And all of a sudden, one of my girls liked her, and she was all of a sudden doing closings for us. I said, Catherine doesn't do closings.

Yes, she does. Give me one notary closing she's done for us. She's done tons. She's got to be two to pay so I said, did somebody call you to verify her employment? Is that why? Yeah, they verified, but she's ready to sign.

She's all ready to go. I said, did she actually do any closings yet? Right. Oh, no, but she's all trained. So you verified she's making X, Y, and Z. She works at friendlies. She can't afford that house. The attorney knew it.

It's the same thing. They all knew it. She couldn't afford the house. But guess what? She's still in that house today without a mortgage. See? Oh, without a mortgage? Because guess who was the restitution?

Who? Me. Well, you're a good person. You're, you're providing. It's my fault. I own the company. You're providing your housing her. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. Great. That's good, right? It's like supporting single mothers. I guess. Like you go to a strip club, you're supporting a single mother, right? Was my fault. It's all the way you look at it.

It is. It was my fault. You're looking at it wrong. That's your problem. That's it. I am helping. Yeah. I'm giving back.

Right. In fact, for 10 years, I built evolutionary reentry, never made a penny. At least with her, I'm giving her something tangible. Yeah, there you go. You really should hang out with her. Like, if I'm going to say, it's like having child support. Like, I probably wouldn't hang out with these kids if I would. But, you know, I had a buddy who's like, he would take his kids out like almost every week.

I'm like, man, you're like a good dad. You're hanging out with these kids all the time. He's like, I'm fucking paying like $1,000 a month for these kids. Why would I hang out? Why would I not take them out? So, yeah. It is right. You know what?

I'm going to start thinking that way. I think I'm going to have lunch with her next week. I was so sad. I have lunch with her. I'd be like, I was my house. I'm going to go knock on the door. She might hug you.

She might be like, I think about you every month when I don't pay my rent. Yeah. She does pay anything. Nothing. She doesn't pay. And on top of it, it got paid off. So she's all set.

Yeah. So, yeah, it was my fault, though. You know, I let too much go on. I really did. It was my fault 100%. It does. matter what happened in the company, I was the owner. Right.

Doesn't make a difference. I would never let anybody in that company ever, even though they knew they were doing something. And you both, you and I both know, it was normalized. It was so normalized. Like you said, everybody knew there was no, it was a phantom second. Everybody knew it, but it was normalized. But then when the shit hit the can, let me ask you, what Wells Fargo executive went to prison? No.

Well, no, none of them. Not one. No. And you know what wonderful, and Timisley, Timisley, Timisley Sloan, the CEO of Wells Fargo, who just retired.

I don't know if you know that. No, I'm not. We're not close. What do you do when you retire from a big bank like that? Go play golf, right? You know what the schmuck does? No. He's suing Wells Fargo for $45 million for pain and suffering

because of all of the, all of these things that he had to do well, he was a Wells Fargo CEO. I had to commit massive, massive amounts of fraud to keep this business. He's got PTSD. Right? And I wrote him a letter. So I'm like, what did you say to him?

I started the letter off and I was wrong, but they wouldn't work with us. And it made no sense to me. I took this loan out on our house. I paid every payment. They wouldn't settle with us at all. They hired attorneys to bury us in paperwork to try and foreclose. The money they spent trying to foreclose on our house was 10 times more than what reality was. Like they spent more than our house worth.

So I write every executive of Wells Fargo. I wrote them a letter and I said, I defrauded your bank. I overnight on a Friday, so they got a Saturday morning, 8 a.m. delivery. Every single eight of them, they all got it the same day. And I opened it up with I defrauded your bank. now. If you got that, you're going to read. Yeah, yeah. Right? And I said, I defrauded your bank and you're paid triple of what my, my mortgage is actually worth. I've not, not paid a mortgage. My poor husband, who was really the victim here because he didn't know anything about the loan. Now you want him and my kids to leave. I'm going to prison. And you want to take his house and not let him make it right. three weeks later they settled with them.

Nice. Nice. So let's get back to your partner. Yeah. Is being investigated. Yep. So how does that trickle down your partner, which is the lawyer? Right.

How does that trickle down to you? To me. They find your fraudulent mortgage on your husband that you took out in your husband's name and other fraudulent loans that were done. I'm sure he gave, gave them pointed. them to the right direction. Okay. I'm sure he did. Because I moved to my house.

Yeah, I'm sure the lawyer did. Because as soon as I saw him on the front page of the paper, we parted ways. Right. I took my title search company, moved everything back to my house. Look, I've got my own issues. I can't do anything when it comes to this. So did the FBI show up your house one day? FBI 15 agents showed up in my house of guns drawn.

Here I am. Me and my husband in the shower. Kids just left for school. every morning my son was late every morning this is what i'd hear all right that was him running down to the school bus then every morning i'd hear he missed the school up so now he was banging at my door and i'm like thomas we'll be out in a second right we're rushing we'll be out in second so you and you're you're both in shower together yep in the shower together so you're recently married so no we were just getting clean at this point

trust me it was not it was we were getting clean it was easy so all of a sudden 15 agents in our bathroom guns here I am stark naked he's like freaking out

get a tall he's flipping out and yeah so I I didn't have any they said we just needed look at your computers

okay what do we do well he can go to work go get a cup of coffee you're not an arrest. Right. Like this makes no sense to me. So why did you just ask me for the computers?

You need to just send all these FBI agents to raid me to go through my house. Now they had the warrant for the, my whole basement was my office at the time. We have three stories. So it was a colonial. They did the whole house. They, you know, went through the entire house. They weren't. They were nice guys.

I mean, they were doing their job. you know and I sat there I had a cup of coffee he went to work they um one of the guys said to me look we could take all the computers I don't want to leave you no no way to work we'll sit here we'll copy the hard drive on this one so they left me a computer to work and took they thought I was housing all of the files that they were looking for from my partner which I didn't have I was a scanner. Everything was on my, I scanned everything, except the three files. One was the girl who was the Friendly's restaurant, girl, her file was paper. And there was two other files that I hadn't finished it. They were paper. So they weren't on the

computer. And they took those files and I immediately called my attorney. I mean, I had the attorney across the hall who already told me I was an idiot to give 49% of the company away. And he basically said, told you so, you know, let him do that. their thing, come down and see me, went down and saw him and he said, what do you got? And I said, well, they got all my computers. I said, I have these three files. I don't want to, I don't want, I just want to tell them what they want to know. I did do this. I didn't want to hurt my kids. I didn't want to hurt my, my husband didn't know anything about it up until that point. He found out that day. My parents had just left to go cross country the day before.

So thank God they weren't there. And I sent all the employees home. My neighbor filmed it all for action news. Right. Called them up. She's getting. So now, the crews come down, right? She got $15, what, $2,000?

Two grand. It came even. They come down. They called me a realtor. Everything was wrong. Not even close to being correct. And I didn't really care. It wasn't a big deal in the newspaper at the time.

The government says to me, what do you know about robo-signing? Now, here I am. I know everything about Wells Fargo Robo-Rub-Siding. You want Wells Fargo? I am your girl. Right. I will have every searcher go across the state of Connecticut

and they will collect every Robo sign because when you were signing, because Countrywide went under. So Countrywide was assigning all their mortgages to Wells Fargo, but they were all dated the same. You know, they were just in papers and they just doed them out, but they were all notarized the same.

false notaries, the whole thing. I'm going to be the one to take down Wells Fargo. I'm doing it. Six months I collected robo signings. Go in there. They said, well, this is really good work. So my attorney says, you're going to get this K-1-5 letter. And I'm like, 5K-1.

Yeah, I said, I don't even get yet. For cooperation. Yes. And I'm excited. And they're like, but this isn't enough. I said, it's not enough. We want you to talk about these files that were on the computer. I said, well, I really told you what I did.

Right. Now, they wanted me to talk about the files that were my, because it was client privilege with my partner. He had attorney client privilege. I did not. Right. I was as paralegal. They take out the files.

Now I see a good friend of mine's name there. I said, I don't know much about this. Oh, we don't want him. We want this guy. I said, I don't, I don't really know him at all. You got to go to him if you want him. I don't know. And then I started to realize this is nothing but a trickle down effect.

They didn't care about me. They didn't care about this. They just kept going down the rabbit hole till they talked to people who were involved to say one wrong thing so they can get other people. And it was the little guys. And they never once even indicted one person from Wells Farrow. So I deserve to go to prison. And people often say to me, why do you say that? It saved my life. Can you imagine where I'd be today? Still paying that mortgage, still stick to sick to my stomach,

still trying to employ my family, still trying to be better and make my father proud. And that academic girl who was trying so hard to be the pretty one. I could have, I don't God knows where I would have been today. Instead, I got sentenced to a year today. I met the most amazing women I've ever met in my life. I learned the system from the inside out. And I thought, this can't be. Because common sense will not be tolerated in the Bureau of Prisons.

You know that. You're looking at it. Wait, that doesn't make sense. Why? You know, and then we used to say, us white-collar bitches, we'd have this thing running like a fine-tooth machine. It was so ridiculous the way this system ran that I started to get passionate, crazy passionate, because it was wrong.

And I remember my husband visiting me one day, I was telling him, and he goes, don't you think you should have gotten crazy passionate when you were doing that wrong before? And I said, yeah, but the thing is, that was normalized. I thought that was unethical. I knew it was not ethical. Right. But does anybody really know in this country that when you lie on a credit card application

that you're making $10 more than you are, that's all a federal crime? Right. I lied on my application. I overstated my income. I signed my husband's name. It was dead criminal period. I had that thinking. I had that criminal thinking.

It came easy to me. And that's scary when it came easy to me. and I learned a different way of putting good all that, that white out from the PDFs and the cutting and the fixing and the fixing. And now I'm like, okay, what can I do? I came home. I still have my title search company. It's 30 years.

Still, it's the only one left in Connecticut. We're very large and I was fortunate. I founded Evolution Reentry Services and I said to every woman when I walked out the door, I'm going to change something for you guys. I'm not just going to say it. And I think I have. I've really, I went back to school. I got my master's in criminal justice. I recently finished my degree, my master's of investigations. I have forensics investigations at UNH. I won the Mike Lawler Icon Award for 2025 for Forens. investigations. That shit's hard.

Crap, that's hard. And Wells Fargo is my number one client. I flipped it around. So what does the organization do? We do everything from education. We specialize at homeownership. That's my lane. Maria, my executive director,

sitting over there, shout out to her. She does phenomenal support. We do online support groups. very different from an online support group you recently were on. Our online support groups are about accountability. They're about responsibility. We don't work for women. And this is for women that have gotten out of prison.

Yeah. And before, we do, we, when we, we walk with women from the minute they're indicted and their families to the time they're home. So we have, my daughters speak to other daughters. My husband speaks to other husbands. we speak to, so every, we have the family covered. We'd ever charge a time. So I don't know. I know all these prison solans will hate me for saying this,

but people pay thousands for what in your darkest moment? You know, I don't know. I don't believe in that. I don't believe in targeting somebody in their darkest moment. I believe that we just, we don't leave them. We meet them. We come up with a success plan. This is your plan.

Where were you lacking? You need to know finances. You need to know, you need support, right? Everybody needs support. Support, housing, education. Where are you going to live? You need a plan before you go to prison. You absolutely need a plan.

What is your success plan? What do you look like? Well, kids, do you have kids? Where are they going to be? Are they going into the system? Are they? These are all things that people don't think of. And attorneys don't.

So I would do a lot of work with attorneys because attorneys don't know. Their client, their job is legal. They're not your social worker. They're not. And so they don't know what happens. Okay, year and a day. Bye. What happens after?

Yeah. Right? You know what's funny? So I, while I was locked up, FBI agents would come see me, right? Yeah. And of course, I've met multiple FBI and Secret Service agents after. It's always funny to me that they would, one of the first questions they would say is like, what's it like in here?

Yeah. And I would always think. think, I mean, shouldn't you kind of know that? But no, as soon as the investigation's over, they hand them off to like the, they're in the system. And then they don't even show up for court unless they're asked to show up to talk. Like they might hear six months later that, oh, that guy pled guilty. You can close the file. He just got sent this to 12 years or 50 years or whatever it was. But they don't ever really know what it's really like in prison. I was always shocked. It's the same thing with lawyers. They, the client,

would say, you know, well, what do I say, you know, when I get to prison, they'd be like, oh, just, you know, what do I tell them about my case? It's a glip. Yeah. Just tell them, tell them that you, your lawyer said not to talk about your case. Yeah. Well, if you're a white guy and you go to federal prison and the white guys approach you and say, you know, what are you in for?

My, my attorney said not to not to talk about the case. They think you're innocent. That's absolutely. Immediately you got a problem. Yeah. I mean, it's just not. Or they think you cooperated. Or they think and you're like, I was like, why would your attorney say that?

Because they just don't know. No, they don't. And they wait. And these women, they're pre-s. I have one woman that's been on pre-sentence seven years. She's getting sentenced in June. I was on pre-sentence five. That's how, that's right.

After five years, you're not even the same person anymore. I was sick to my stomach all the time, waiting. Because you're waiting, you're waiting, you're waiting. Then you've got that hope. I'm not going to go. I'm not going to go. How can I possibly go to prison? And then I realized, prison wasn't punishment to me.

It was punishment to my family. Right. You know, I went to a camp. And in a camp, I met incredible women. And I laughed. I don't make prison out to be this beautiful thing, but it's not a camp is very different from, you know, a regular prison. But my kids left, they didn't have a mom.

Can you imagine if they, if they stuck a, an angle bracelet on me and made me go back to the very same company and fix the holes that I was able to get through. And I end up doing it now anyway. Right. I mean, I'm an investigator for mortgage fraud, deed theft. That's what I do. I'm probably the best in New England. I can find it. Yeah. That's the one thing I am definitely not humble about, especially after my last one. I've learned that it's okay to say you're good at something. I'm a work in progress. Do you see more and more like title issue or title frauds?

And like it's like all the time now where people are just taking people's that the abandoned properties or they're moving into people's properties and changing the title or they're like when I did it, it was when I did it, it was like unheard of. Right. Yeah. Every once while somebody would do it now, it's like all the time. Bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. I mean, it's constantly. It's because it's the most reckless. Remember the mortgage industry in 2008? That's the title industry today. I spoke up in Connecticut. Title searchers are not licensed. Any idiot could be a title searcher. And when I tell you, I have all the liability. I have all the liability. I'm sorry. I got two title searches over there. One of them is an idiot. But no, I'm always yelling at him. Don't understand though. You, like you said, I could change somebody by accident, change somebody get an acre, an extra acre of land that they don't have. It is the most reckless thing out there right now and no one cares.

You know why they don't care? Because they're just going to sue me. They don't care. Title companies don't lose anything. You know, even title companies. I spoke up in Connecticut and the attorneys on the panel said, wait, what? And I'm like, yeah, you don't know. Your attorney doesn't do your title search.

A title searcher does. One of us people go out and do, and Connecticut, Connecticut, Rhode Island, and Vermont are the only three states in the country that are town-based. You're all county-based. We have to go to each individual 169 municipalities at title search. And after COVID, when they started putting everything online, data breaches, it's, like you said, nobody's watching.

It's so easy to steal a deed. It's not, I just did a deed case. This poor man, you know, in this house for 67 years. I met this guy at church, needed extra income. He was 85 years old. He wanted to fix up his third party. The guy said, oh yeah, I'll get you a loan, sign, San Sancent. He signed his deed away.

Two years later, knock on the door, the house was auctioned off. The guy took a 6668. $8,000 loan, walked away, house was foreclosed on, auctioned off, and the guy was being evicted. And he didn't even know he didn't own his house. It's like, you know, you were the innovator. Now they're the followers. But it's not even, it's a different kind of nasty, mean kind of, and it could be prevented. It's just not. being looked at. Like you said, notary, who looks at the notary stamp? There was a guy in, I want to say New York or New, I don't, I forget where it was.

This is the one that I thought was interesting, was he would go and find houses for elderly people. And he'd place a lien on the house, a mortgage on the house. And then after a few months, he'd go to a reputable lawyer, a real estate attorney, and say, I lent this person $400,000, and they haven't made a payment. Foreclose. Right. And so the lender, I mean, sorry, the real estate attorney says, well, do you have all the paperwork? He says, yeah, he provides the HUD statement.

He provides everything, notarized everything, the wire transfer, everything. They then send something, you know, they notified the borrower, which didn't. borrow anything. Yeah, right. And so typically this person does not even, they don't, they don't even answer. Like the process server comes, like they get the thing and they think it's a mistake. Right. So I'm pretty sure in some cases he had even dummied up the process.

Like, no, no, he's been served. We're in the process. Take it over. Like, okay. And so this guy files, starts the foreclosure, files less pendants, gets filed. you know, mailed. But the person, 75 or 80 years old, they're not even paying attention. It's too hard.

Right. Or even some cases, maybe it's going to the wrong address because this happens to be a brownstone that's vacant or a renter. Or they can change the address to a mailing address. Yeah. It's a renter, whatever. So at some point, they get in front of the judge and the old, the old borrower here, he shows up and he's saying, Your Honor, I don't know what's happening.

I didn't borrow any money. And the attorney that the judge sees every couple of days, he's like, Your Honor, my client, Mr. So-and-so, such and such, I've got the documents. We can see the wire transfer. We get, and so now the judge is looking at the borrower, the victim, saying he wired you the money. We have proof that you got the money. I didn't get any money. I don't know what you're talking about. Your Honor, he may be.

He may be senile. He may be, I don't know what's happening. I and so they end up foreclosing like there were there were they said some people were put out on the street like there would be there was an old woman that I think owned three or four properties this guy foreclosed on the property with foreclosing on the properties some of the properties just vacant yeah takes one of the problems she ends up homeless she's living on the street she owns a couple properties you can't live in any of them yeah and he just took a and keep mind these are these are million dollar pieces of property brook Brooklyn is horrible right now right so they turn around

he immediately turns around it sells a property so that crime yields him half a million to a million dollars and all everybody involved in the process is just doing what they do on a normal day. So the process server serves them. I don't know what this is about. So that's all I need to know. Yeah. The real estate attorney, I'm just doing what I do. I'm foreclosing.

This is what I do. The judge, I see this guy every day. We've never had this. You know how many victims come in here and try and fight this and say, oh, they didn't disclose this or I don't know what you're talking about? I got an 80 year old man here who's saying, you know. know what they're talking about. Okay, sir, I suggest you get a lawyer. I can't afford a lawyer. You know, okay, well, you got the money. And there's a statute limitation. Six years.

For what? Oh, to try and go back and correct it? Defeft. Six years. That's it. Well, so this guy, this guy did this for years. He only about a year or so got arrested for it. Because finally somebody was, yeah. Right. Because when they would go to the local, they go to the local sheriffs and police, they don't know what they're looking at. No, it's complicated. I don't know. we're not set up to look at this. You steal your credit card. We'll take a, we'll take a, we'll take a, we'll take a report. We send it up.

They don't even look into that. They're not even looking into that. So, differently not going to look into this. This is complicated. So eventually, I guess it happened in enough counties or something that they put it together. They put a task force. They arrest this guy. But I was thought that was, I was like, boy, this guy is brazen.

He's brazen, but in a way where he's just using the system, because he knows it's set up to be, to not really look into anything. You throw it into the machinery and it just starts cranking it out. It doesn't matter that there's somebody saying, hey, I didn't do this. But you're an old guy. You don't have a lawyer. How are you going to prove? Even if you go to a real estate attorney, most real estate attorneys are just going to be like, look. They don't know either. Yeah. They just don't know. They close loans. They close loans. That's simple. And half the time the paralegal sent and everything up for them, they're showing up to collect their check. They close the loan. They look over the documents. And they don't know if it's a time.

They don't know if this is fraudulent or not. Let's face it, if I go to record a deed on your house, I want to transfer your house out of your name into somebody else's name and it's notarized. And the OR book and page and instrument number and everything's filled out. And it's signed by somebody at the bank and it's notarized. The town clerk has to take it. They have to record it. Yeah, they have to. It's funny because when I went to home title lock, so I did a, I did a, I've done a bunch of commercials for home title.

I know. I'm going to share them on my website. say. I, um, one of them. Can I do that? I'm sure. Okay. He said it.

Here. They don't care. They don't care. They want it out there. So I actually, so one time they had flown me out, right? And we were shooting a commercial. And I was telling them, you understand that like, like they have, you have to, as the county recorder, you know, the elected official, right?

Like they have to record these documents. And they were like, oh, they don't have to. I was like, no, no, they do. If it's filled out correctly, they have to record it. And he was like, is that true? They're like, because they were like, because they. Two inch margin. There's certain.

Two inch margin. You got to have the conveyance tax form. You got to have the notary stamp. You have to have. That's it. Yeah. They don't, they're not, they're not educated enough to know to look for. But this is some woman making $18 an hour.

She just, she doesn't care. Because you know how long it would take her two seconds to look up a notary stamp. Right. Is this person? Because that's the biggest. Really a notary. thing. Oh, all my notary stamps were fake. Yeah, that's a big thing. But when I talked to the people at home title, like that they weren't looking at it from the, they weren't looking at it when we first

started talking. They weren't looking at it from the fraudsters perspective. Yeah. They're looking at it from a, are these documents filed? How can we contact, you know, what do we do to correct this? And I'm saying, no, they have to. So they ended up going and getting a, um, the public officials, the person who was elected, right? Right. They got him and I interviewed him. And I interviewed him. And when I, as I'm interviewing him, I remember as I'm interviewing him, he said, well, we have to. They said, he was, he goes, by law, we cannot not file the document. He's like, we can. The county record.

Right. He explains the whole thing, right, as he's talking. And I remember when it was all over, I went to the guy, my kind of contact there. I was like, I was like, did you hear what he just said? He's like, I can't believe he said that. Like, he's like, I can't believe he openly just admitted that there's nothing they can do. They can think it's fraud. We can think it's fraud.

We still have to report it. And once it's recorded, we had a situation in Fairfield. This guy had open land left to him. Moves out of town. That's beautiful open land. Someone starts building on the land. So the neighbor calls him up because, oh, your building goes, no, comes back. His land got sold.

Right. Somebody pretended to be him, sold his land to a developer. The developer now built houses on it. So I was in the front page of the paper for this one because if the title searcher did their job, there was a misspelling in the name. Okay. If they caught the misspelling, none of it would have happened because that misspelling would have drove a title defect, which would have drove a phone call, which would have drove. It's just reckless. No one is looking.

They don't want to, they don't want to take the expense of licensing. You have to be a licensed pool installer. in the state of Connecticut. You can't put a pool in your backyard unless you have a license. Right. But I can do a million dollar title search on a property

and not have a license. It's insane to me. It's almost wanting fraud to happen. Right. It's leaving those openings. It's kind of like one of my clients. I told you earlier about my client who stole 45 million from the DEI officers at META.

Right. How was she able to do? do that. How is somebody able to steal $45 million from an organization, a technical, a technology organization as the EEI officer? There's holes. There's holes in it. So I think that these organizations are better suited hiring people with criminal thinking who could stop it. Right. Because I can stop it. I know what to look for. You know what to look for. You know? Yeah.

Yeah. I was going to say it's kind of like a Snowden. Yeah. Like once you're, he was kind of like, look, once you're on the inside. Yeah.

It's your kid in the candy store. There's no, there's no, there's no governors to stop you. Nobody's, nobody's looking over your shoulder. Once you're in the building. You're just getting in the building.

Yeah. And I think that's, that's the major problem with the. And I also think that that people in general aren't, they don't know what to look for. They're not looking for things. They're not trying.

They're not thinking fraud. Like they don't want, you don't want to fall. I always say this whenever I do like, I do keynote speeches. Yeah. For like banks and credit unions stuff. Yeah. And of course, they always ask the same questions. You know, it doesn't matter where you are.

You always get the five or six to same coverage. One of the questions is always like, what, what can we do to prevent this? And it's like, well, first of all, you can prevent it. Yeah. But it would be so burdensome and so expensive because you, You'd have to check everything. And people don't want to catch fraud. Like if you're a teller, you don't, I don't want to catch you.

I don't want this check to be good. I want to. You're going home. If you're a loan officer and I, if the loan goes through, I get a check for 800 bucks or $200 or $2,000 or whatever it is. If I catch you in the fraud, I get nothing. I probably don't even necessarily get an add-a-boy. And now I'm not just that.

I'm not able to, I'm losing hours because now I have to go and explain it and talk about this. I might have to talk to law enforcement might come in. I might have to go to a trial. I might have to go and fill out police reports and do that. Like, I don't want to do all that, bro. I want this. I want this to look good. I'm going to look at it and, yeah, this looks funky.

I want to say, I didn't notice that. I'll stick it in the file. Hopefully, underwriting doesn't notice it if they don't notice it. Or I'm just going to put the information in and go through. Like, I don't want to find this. Yeah. It's the same thing. with intuition, there's tons of times when people's intuition, I was in a bank,

defrauding the bank or doing something wrong, and the persons you could tell, they would even say, something's not right here. And I go, really? And I just keep going. Well, what is it? And they go, well, you know, your credit report says this. And I go, oh, okay. You sort of question it. What do you mean it says that? Exactly. That's crazy. Well, you know, and then I'd provide additional, I'd already know it was a possibility. So I provide additional documentation. So now you're. Can you help me? Can you help me fix it? Well, not just that. The person that I think is benefiting from the fraud, I'm now allowing

that person to provide additional information to help show me that it's not fraud. Like, I'm the fraudster. Do not accept additional documentation to prove from the fraudster that he's not a fraudster. That's right. And you knew it. Your intuition told you something was wrong. Yeah. You ignored it.

You went, oh, okay. Huh. Anyway. And you kept good. going. Yeah. It said fraud alert on my credit report. You still kept going.

Oh, yeah. And it's the same thing. Now they have these things where you could sign up at the town hall. So if there is a change in your deed, they could let you know. Right. But it's still too late. Once it's recorded, do you know how it's like to untangle title? Yeah.

It's expensive. If you have to hire a lawyer. Yeah. Definitely expensive. Like with the place in Brooklyn, I mean, the guy took the money. You'll laugh at this one. He took the $600,000 from this house. he stole.

Right. He had an IRS charge. The government retained the fee, the money he made from the stolen house for his restitution. They took it for his restitution. So now the government isn't even looking at how this guy get all this money? Right. Oh, look, there's money there.

He owes prostitution. Let's just take it. Let's not figure out how he got the money. Let's just take it. And nobody, it's that nobody cares anymore. Nobody seems to, maybe I've gotten to a point where I've way too much passion because I care. It bothers the hell out of me when I see, I want to wrong it. This title industry bothers the hell out of me because it's so easily fixed license title

searchers. Don't send your searches overseas. Because I hired, I hired five overseas searchers, $5 a search. Five dollars a search. Out of those five guys that I hired, I gave them each 10 searches. Out of those 10 searches, I had four major wrong things happen. But it saves money for the title companies now. They don't even hide. That's why we're the only, not good. We're not better. We're the only company left in Connecticut because I refuse to let them beat us because they just send it overseas. It's getting more reckless. It's, okay, well, let's not even have them do it the proper way. Let's send it overseas because you can do it online now. No, you can't. You can't check building and permits, building zoning permits online. You can't.

You can't check a lot of sewer liens, water liens online. They're in separate sewer. Waterlean books. You cannot do a proper title search online. So they're just saying, oh, that's good enough. That's good enough. If there was a title policy written somewhere down the line, then it must be good. Must be good. I was going to say, you know, when we were talking about the, you were talking about the

notifications. Yeah. So if you're a regular person and you buy a house and you close on it and you sign for the notification, you get notified. And I get notified that my deed was just transferred to another person's name. Yeah. What do I do about it? Like the average person doesn't know what they're like,

okay, great, what now? Yeah, let me go down and tell. Yeah, what I'm going to go, what, tell law enforcement. Law enforcement is going to say, it's an notary. It sounds like, or even if they say fraud, they're going to be like, that seems civil. Like you probably need an attorney. They're not going to, they're absolutely not going to take the time out to say,

let's look at the signatures. Do they match? Let's look at. Well, they're not going to launch an investigation into getting what, your deed transferred back. Like you now have to hire an attorney. Yep. You have to try and have the, attorney has to file paperwork. He has to pull all the documents.

He used to put something together. He has to go back in front. He has to sue for quiet title. He has to try and make all these corrections. In the meantime, I promise you, I've borrowed at least three mortgages on your house. And the reason why we ended up retaining our house after all of this. I paid Wells Fargo. I refinanced, paid Wells Fargo back.

The government said to me, well, no, you didn't pay them back. Your husband paid them back. So what difference does it make? I still pay my restitution. We don't owe them dime. Still pay my restitution because they don't get it. They don't get title. So while I pay my restitution every month, we beat Wells Fargo.

We have our house free. I mean, the house is in a good position now. The title is perfect. We fixed title. But unless you know how to do that, we would have had to spend hundreds of thousand dollars to do that because we were getting buried in paperwork over our heads, just buried. Because to foreclose, people don't have a chance because they're getting buried in paperwork by these foreclosure attorneys. Why? Not because the banks want your house. Because the foreclosure

attorneys make money every time they bill the bank. And the banks aren't watching. Again, they're not watching either. They're just getting these bills in. They're paying the bills. They're burying people in home, you know, over their head. So now the house is worth 100,000. Guess what? They just spent 300,000 on, you know, and that's where evolution's working in our homeownership program. we're going after foreclosed homes. There's 126 empty homes in New Haven, Connecticut right now. Why are they empty? Why do we have a housing problem?

Why do people come home from prison and not have a place to live? When there's an empty house, nobody's paying for. Okay, why don't the bank either donate that house or give us a year rent free? A year rent free to get that person up and running. So we did place one woman and she's closing on the house next week. and it was a success. I need to tweak it a little bit, but I'm a realtor.

I'm a licensed realtor. So I'm able to really work on that program because I get so frustrated that people come home from prison and they're not, people aren't prepared to go through the long haul, right? You come home. The transitions, right? You go through pre-sentence.

You go through now you're waiting. then you have to self-surrender, then you're in prison, then you go to halfway house, then you go to home confinement, then you go to probation. And with all these transitions, and I'm switching gears, but with all these transitions, there's different rules, different regulations, and barriers. How do you hit those barriers? I mean, I just got put back in prison because I wanted to fight my notary. Okay.

I won, I got it. I got my notary license back. I got my notary license back. I got my real estate license back. I got my master's in criminal justice. And I said to them, is there something I can't get? Because I'll fight it. Just so the woman who comes home after me knows, you can do it.

Not easy. But you can fight it and you can do it. And that's what really evolution does. We groom women to be successful because the nonprofit, and I'm not going to be liked for saying this, but the nonprofit arena is. so sad because they don't do anything. They collect millions of dollars. They say they do everything and they don't even work with each other and they do nothing. So we decided we're not going to do that. We're going to try and change. So I intersected homeownership. You know, all the, all the

wrong things that bother me in homeownership, all the wrong things that bother me with criminal justice. And I partnered with our board, which is a criminal defense attorney, a correctional officer, a judicial marshal, we put them all together to be able to sit and say, okay, what do you see? What do you see? What do you see? What do you see? I'd love to have you join because you have a great perspective. But what do you all see on how this could change because it's not working with just seeing it from the outside end? So that's what that that's really what we do for evolution and what title. I mean, I'm like, like still the geek who loves instead of crossing off the paper, you know, the words I cross off title stuff. I take on the title challenges for our people. But it's interesting.

It really is interesting. And I can tell you love the stuff too. I mean, for God's sakes, how long did you commit, how long did you commit deep theft? FBI said, well, my U.S. prosecutor said a decade. I don't think it was that long. It was maybe seven or eight years. Maybe seven or eight years. They're excessive.

They're excessive. They said that I, like, committed fraud in like 109 houses. And this was just in, the FBI said a committed fraud on 109 houses in Ybor City. That was before I went on the run. I don't remember 109 houses. It seems. Well, they have to exaggerate. Because they want to make sure you don't go to trial.

Yeah. Because if you go to trial, they have to complicate it more. So nobody could see. Well, I couldn't go to trial. I can't go to trial. I would never even... I would have been stupid. Yeah.

Me too. Me too. I was guilty. And you know what? I'm okay with saying that because we're not perfect. Listen, everybody, it's funny. I was, you know, every once in a while you meet some guy that's like you, you know what I'm saying? Like you meet somebody who's got a similar charge.

And I was the only person in prison that was more than happy to get out and tell everybody what I'd done. Everybody else was like, like, how do you, how do you, how do you change? change your name or, you know, how do I hire Reputation.com that they can bear, I heard they can bury all your stuff down like 10 pages down on Google search. And I need to bury those articles on me, which is always just like, you're working on your next. But come on that. You have, that's freedom. I just tell people and Google me. Yeah. Just Google me because, you know, if you Google me, then you make your own. But there's nobody, and no one could say

anything about me that I haven't said about myself. Yeah. I'm so imperfect. But it's, it is, it is what it is and I'd rather be imperfect and say it than pretend I'm not and want to bury my name. Right. It's, that's freedom for me. You know, you're either, you're either okay with with the person I was and the person I am today. Yeah. Or you can go fuck yourself. Yeah. You know, and that's a great, it's a great equal. Right. It's a great thing that says, hey, this is somebody that if they're not okay with it. Great. I don't want you in my life. You don't want me in your life and I don't want you in my life. Yes. Yeah. Exactly. I'm still learning. I'm with these people, you know.

Yeah, I'm still learning that. Because I'm going through the cancel culture, right? Because in the space, when you do well in the criminal justice space, the people that you used to do well for, now you're doing well for yourself. So they start to try and, you know, cancel you out. And it's the best thing that's ever been. There's always those people. Oh, it was so good.

That person, dude, he's a scam artist, he's a scumbag. He says, yes, yes, yes. All those things. You knew you did something. My attorney said to me, you did something right. You're in two textbooks. I'm like, you're right. I did something right.

I'm a case study now. Yeah, I opened up a textbook in school and I'm like, oh my God, that's my name. And I was humiliated at first. And I'm thinking, that's pretty cool because that's Martha Stewart right next to me. I was going to say the first time I read an article about me, like they kept describing me as a con man. And I remember thinking to myself like, you don't know me. I can't believe they said. And now, but, you know, and now, you know, whatever, 15, 20 years later, I read that article.

I'm like, yeah, that's pretty accurate. Yeah. My car was silver. It wasn't gray. But other than that. Yeah. It's like I wasn't a real estate agent. Then I was a paralegal.

Yeah. This says I'm 5.5. I'm 5.6, damn it. You know? So other than that, it's pretty accurate. Yeah. And I'm okay with that because we would, I wouldn't have gotten to where I am now. And I'm not a work of progress, but I'm certainly not a person.

and 10 years ago, who was such a mess and so afraid of failure. Yeah. Like so afraid of failure. Can you imagine you be so afraid of failure that I committed crimes? Yeah. Stupid. You know, I would say everybody will, in the right circumstances, I think pretty much anybody will commit a crime.

Yeah. But I also think that, you know, that was my go-to move. You know what I'm saying? Like, that was my, you know, a legitimate guy would have been like, or a decent person would have at least gotten a second job first. Mine was, I'm not getting a second job. I'm going to wipe this out. I'm going to fix this.

I'm going to change that. I'm going to, yeah, that's my go-to move is. That was all of the mortgage. That wasn't just, you were raised that. That was instilled because it was normal. Everybody was wiping out and cutting the little PDFs because we didn't get the PDF converter back then. I think what was funny about that is that it initially, like guys,

you know when you're doing something different, when the other guys that you already know are a little shabler. Shifty, you know, are coming to you saying, I got a problem. Yeah, right. Yeah. And before you know what, everybody's coming to you. Yeah. So you cross that line that much.

They're like, they're like, they can do this much. And, you know, but I can say, okay, so your issue is you need a bank to say that this guy's had $40,000 in the bank for 90 days. Yeah, bro. Like, I don't know what to do. I got you. Yeah. I happen to have already made a fake bank that, you know, I've already, well, how am I

Yeah, but they want me to send the bank statements. I already have blank base bank statements. You know, they're like, yeah. They're just like, holy Jesus, hold on. I got a thing. Let me change this, change it. What's the guy's name? Okay.

Make sure I spelled that right. You know, I'm dyslexic. And then you just print it out, put it in, fold them up, beat them up a little bit. Stick them in pre-made envelopes I had. I glue it shut and tear it open like it was make a copy of the envelope. Well, why? Make a copy of the envelope.

It's just extra, extra. It went through the federal. mail. It makes it real. Or give them, sometimes I'd send in the actual color bank statements to the underwriter. Because you get the phone. That is something. They'd call you up. They'd be like, you know, you sent us the original. Like, oh my God. Did I? I'm so. Can you make copies and mail that back? And they go, oh, and since you got them, can you stamp them like originals? Like, oh, yeah, yeah, no, of course. Of course, knowing they're not going to call now. Yeah, right. Yeah, because they've got the originals. Not even realizing, like, I can make a color copy, you know.

But if they did, it's okay because the cell phone's right there. I can pick up the cell phone and, you know. Oh, God. You're a poor guy over there. He just sits there and shakes his head. Oh, listen, this guy, this guy, the first, like one of the first, he had no idea what he's getting into. Was it Mike Dowd?

Oh, Mike Dowd was here. He's like a legendary crooked cop. Like his first, our first podcast. Mike Dowd saying insane stuff. I mean, he's talking about, you know, shaking down people stealing from them. I mean, just all kinds. Like, just, it's just like just, like just beating people up and doing all kinds of stuff. And he's sitting there like, what hell's going on?

And by the second or third, when we got guys jumping out of windows, you know, fighting, beating up each other with baseball bats and stuff. And now. I used to go back and look at some. Now Colby said when his friends will come to him and they'll, they'll be like, yeah, this happened, this happened. And, you know, Colby will be like, nah, you know, he's probably. probably going to get out on bond. He'll get bail. Yeah, because they don't really have them for the, or he'll go, eh, I don't think you'll get 10 years. I think he needs to cooperate or, yeah, or he's like, we need to cooperate. Or he's going to prison. I'm like, oh, like, that's not bad.

Yeah. He needs to get that K-5. Yeah. He's going to K-A. The first 10 years are the hardest. Yeah. That was a year. Yeah, that was. Yeah. I think the first time I talked to you, you said, the first 10 years of the hardest. You did 13 years? Eh, the first decade. the artist. It's either if people laugh, you can tell if somebody's got a good sense of humor. If they laugh or if they're just like, yeah, I guess. You're like, okay, never mind. We're not going to be cool. I can tell. You don't have a dark enough sense of humor. Yeah, no, you have to have. Definitely have to have. I do. I thank you for being on. I have any on. Yeah, especially to talk to somebody that knows title. I never get that.

Yeah. You know what's funny is, I'll listen. So, well, here's, so one thing, remember I just told you about the guys would be like, hey, bro, like, how do you change someone's name? Because I actually, you'll like this. I actually put an ad in the newspaper, good credit, bad credit, no problem, call now free applications available in the phone number. People would call. This is back when you could do that. Now you probably have to put it on Craigslist or whatever's popular now. And people would call you and I'd answer the phone. You know, United Capital, you know, United Capital lending. How may help you. Yeah. Oh, yeah, I can take it. No, you know, I can take an application. Hold on. Let me get you Tom.

wait no no you know what hold on he no i'll just take one i can take one right now um you know and i take their application yeah he's busy so i actually yeah he's busy so i put him on holds too sometimes you put them on hold you put them on mute and you sit there for a little bit you click it back hello you still there yeah hold on you wait wait wait okay listen uh tom's busy um i'll go ahead and take an application i don't know really do this but i'll do for you yeah i do for you so i take the application and then so i had taken a bunch of i this was initially how i was stealing the identities and then I, so you know what I would do? Because I couldn't pull their credit, right?

Because this is when I was on the run. That's right. Yeah. I would. Oh, you were already on the run. This is when I was on. This is how I was doing it. Well, if I wasn't on the run, I'd just go into the file cabinet.

So while I was on the run, I was doing this. And then I would, I would call another mortgage company and say, I work for an app taker. We have an extra 13 apps. Can we send them to you? So you can pull these people's credit and call them back. Get it. And then they'd say, yeah. What are they going to say? No? No, we don't want 13 extra leads. Like they always like,

well, how much? No, bro, you don't understand. We sell so many a day. We didn't say there's 13 left over, but I need somebody to call these people within the next 12 hours. You have to pull their credit, call them. Send them over. Send them over. So now these people get a return phone calls. They don't think anything's wrong. So, but I was, I'm now the conduit, right? I'm in between. So I've got the information. Yeah. Anyway, I stole a bunch of them. So one time I stole the guys, information. I then went to a lawyer and I had his name legally changed from Michael Eckert to Michael Johnson. And I feel bad about that. God, I don't know what happened to Mr. Johnson that doesn't know. At some point, he's going to realize what is going on? Why are you calling me? Well,

you're Mr. Johnson, aren't you? They're going to be like, no, I'm not. So anyway, so guys would come up to me in prison. But this is a licensed attorney. Yeah. Well, because keep in mind, I went and got a driver's license in North Carolina as Michael Eckert. I went and got an attorney. And you know how they write up a little motion? Yeah. They want you to find two people that will go get a document notarized saying they've known you over three years.

Right, exactly. I've been in, I was in Charlotte, North Carolina for two months. And we'd made some friends. And I said, hey, man, by the way, I was, I gave him that, I gave me. I'm like, yeah, but it says, you know, you have to know me three years. Yeah, yeah, I don't care. And they'd sign it and notarize it, fine, no problem. And then he takes his little motion plus the two people, files it with the court.

Then they put it, actually put it on the courtroom wall. They have like a court board in the front. They put it on the old thing. Stays there for 10 days. And after 10 days, he goes back and says, Your Honor is there for 10 days. Like, okay, no problem. Sign it. Now I can go back to DMV.

I can change that, change my social security number, change everything. I got everything back. Anyway, that's not the point. Point is that, like, this is insane. So one of the things I did was I had bought a house one. time. And the person owed, they had a mortgage, a second mortgage. The woman was retired, and she owed back on her homeowners association dues of like $7 or $8,000 for a condo she had. So there was a lien on her property. I satisfied that. Listen, it didn't matter what you

had. I'm satisfied everything on that mortgage. Everything on that title, I'm satisfying. So I mean, I'm like, bam, bam, bam. I'm satisfied. buying everything. And I remember the chick I was with at the time, she's like, well, you know, we could, we would go down. And like I said, we're not licensed. We don't know what we're doing. We're just pulling everything on the title. And we pull it and I'm like, I don't know, it looks like she. I don't know, not positive what this is. I'm like, I think she owes money in Miami for a condo. And they're like, God, she hadn't paid in years. How much was the fee? I'm like, I don't know. I guess she was like seven grand. This was, and this was filed months ago.

And I'm like, she's like, what are you going to do? Well, we got to get rid of that. Like, that's got to go. And you would write, you actually put a satisfaction on it. I said, well, it'd probably be like a release of leave. Yeah, release a leave. Because I don't want to make them all look at it. And I don't know if this is even, I don't know if it's called a release or a satisfactory. I don't know, I'm assuming they're synonymous.

Yeah, yeah. And so I did that. Yeah. And I remember I satisfied a loan one time in the name C Montgomery Burns, the aging tycoon from the Simpsons and notarized it. You know, so which every time, which I thought was funny. But when I went in front of the judge. Like no sense of humor at all. This guy,

you think? He's a stick in the life. You'd think a judge would have a sense of humor. You would think he would mean like, oh my God, yeah, you would think so. And he even says it in my truth. He says, I mean, this isn't the worst thing. He said, but the Simpsons character. And he just kept on going because I, you know, I'm sitting there thinking, you know, you want to say.

Like, I'm desperately want to be like, the Simpsons, right? Like, come on. Right? Like, come on. That's smart. Right. It's like doing a Macaroni. Right.

It's kind of like, right? Yeah. Like, come on. Like, that's how stupid this crime is. That's how easy this crime is, right? Like I actually had initially filled out Bartholomew Simpson. I was going to have the notary from. Do?

Yeah. The chick goes, she's freaking out. Absolutely not. You're not. I'm like, no. How funny is that? We'll do the whole. It'll be a theme.

It's a theme satisfaction. No. That. Let me ask you, now that you think back. because you have such a great perspective on, I did this. And it's, it is funny when you think about it, right? Like you think about the crazy things you did and where you are now.

How do you, how are you so accountable? Well, I, you're so accountable. We need to teach half the women. Right. Half of the people. But half of the people. But half the people we know, we need to meet you because how do you get people that accountability. I try and they just look at me like, I'm like, why do you tell people? And I'm like,

because it's who I am. And think about how ridiculous I was. And that's where the funny comes in. If you can't laugh at yourself, what can you laugh at? Right? Yeah. I don't have. I mean, why wouldn't you? You know what I'm saying? Like, I have so many, I have enough issues than to walk around apologizing all the time or hiding from something. Like, I'm going to hide the rest of my life. Like, come on. So what do you say to somebody who's just been tagged with? all this money and they say, I didn't do it. That they didn't tag? What do you mean?

They just got indicted for $1.4 million. And the answer is, I didn't do it. Go to trial. Yeah, but they say if I go to trial, I'm going to. Well, you didn't do it. You can prove it in trial. See, that's true. You know what I'm saying?

And they're always like, well, I can't go to trial. The trial tax. Immediately it turns into, well, you don't understand. And see what happened, what happened was that so and so and so, okay, so you did know. See, what I get is my attorney told me I can't go to trial. Right, because you'll lose because you're guilty. Because you're guilty. Yeah, right.

So I'm not being too. Like people say, you're so blunt. But I'd rather be blunt than sit there and sleep. Well, I mean, you know, listen, I'm not going to play the victim the rest of my life. It's too, fuck. It takes too long. Yeah, I can't do it either. I can't.

Oh, you don't understand. everybody was doing it. I didn't know. Really, you're so stupid that you didn't know. You'd rather that people think the rest of your life, I was duped by everyone else. And I'm an idiot. Yeah, as I ran a business. Right.

Yeah, right. Then I knew that when this guy said he was going to have his brother-in-law say he worked for his gutter company and provide W-2s and paystubs, that maybe that was fraud. Something was wrong with it. Right. Right. So, you know, or that you were going to lie. Like, the broker said it was okay. He said it wasn't a big deal. So you thought that it was normal that you were going to go to six different title companies.

And every one of them, you were going to have to sign paperwork that says that you lived in every single one of these houses. And all of these primary residents. And every single one of them, you know what I'm saying? It's like, stop it, bro. Stop it. Yeah. I get it, it's willful blindness. Yeah.

It's illegal. Like that's what, by the way, that's what the term, that's what the term you're going to hear this a lot in your trial. Willful blindness. Yeah. But the broker said that that was okay. Yeah. Cut it out, man.

Relevant conduct. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're done. You know it.

Yeah. You know. That's what I got that. Relevant conduct, relevant conduct. Right. So I'd rather say, eh, I thought it'd work out. No, that was wrong. And it didn't.

And I got caught and I got jammed up. And now I'm having to do things. three years with you people and I'll be making payments for the rest of my fucking life on six million dollars or whatever much you know that I you owe and that's it and you know my I used to write true crime stories right I was locked up I write true crime so this guy comes to me and and he sees me right and he comes up he goes hey man he said you do legal work and I went no I just write guy stories he's like okay and I said why he said well because I got like I think he got three years he goes he said and I'm sure the story subtly changes every time I

change it because I can't remember exactly the exact thing. But he's like he got three years. And what he had done was he said yeah, he said, I'm, I'm fighting my case. He only got three years. Yeah. And he was, I'm fighting my case. I said for, for, I said, why? What's what's wrong? He's like, well, bro, like, I just think I got, I shouldn't have gotten any. I shouldn't have got three years. I go, well, what happened? He's like, well, I own a trucking company and he figured out that he could that he figured out that Johnson and Johnson, which he was picking up and moving stuff with, they just weren't paying attention. He, anything he invoiced him for. They get. He said, so I was invoicing them and he ended up invoicing him for an additional like three million dollars over the

course of four years or two years whatever and i was like okay okay he's like so i'm just adding pallets that i'm not moving and charging them and anyway he's like they just never checked he said so five year four years go by he said eventually he told another trucker that was a friend of his about it he gets caught he tells on him he's like so anyway i got so it was three million dollars and this and that he's like i got three years what you know he's like what do you think i should should do i think he got like four years, whatever. But, yeah. And he's like, right, so he's fighting.

He's fighting his criminal being. I'm like, okay, okay. By the time you're home. Right. And that's what I said, do you think I should file a 2255? I said, oh, absolutely. Hope. Yeah.

Have you heard this before? No. It's exactly what I said. So he goes, I said, you should file it. He said, why? What do you think? I said, well, it'll take you about three to six months to file it. He goes, okay.

And he had just gotten here like two weeks earlier, two, three weeks. He's only been here. And he turned himself in. So he's that harmless. So he's like, yeah, I said, that's six months. I said, then they're going to give the government 60 days respond. They'll ask for an extension. 90 days they'll respond.

Then you'll have a chance to respond. And then I said, so that's going to take about a year. I said, then you're going to file this and that's going to take about three to six months. Then this and this. I said, so at that point, I said at that point, the judge has to make a decision. and it'll take him between a month to three to three months, maybe four months, and he'll, I said, at that point, you're going to, you'll be denied. And he's like, well, what do you mean I'll be denied?

I said, well, at that point, they'll give you the denial. And he goes, I said, but, and he goes, well, why would I, why the fuck would I file the 2255 if you think I'm going to get denied? I go, well, because, because by that point, two and a half years will have gone by and they'll be putting you in for halfway house. And I said that whole time you get to lay in bed and talk to your family about how if this goes through, you could be out next month and you could do this and you could do that. You'd be able to daydream about it when you're sleep at night, laying down and talk to your

family and visitation. And it'll always be there. I said, that hope will get you through. And he goes, well, fuck. Well, you said, so why would I do it then? I said, because the hope will get you through. I said, and by that point, they'll put you in for a halfway house. I said, and you'll realize I've only got a few more months

that I can do this. And he goes, that's horrible. And I go, you stole $3 million. You have to do some time. I said, what were you thinking I was going to say? You get to steal $3 million and you get probation? It was $3 million and I thought I could get two years probation or three years probation.

I can go fucking rob a bank right now. Everybody would do it. I got a year in a day and I wanted to fight it. Remember you to every day? It's ridiculous. What are the statutes? I need to know this every day. I'm like, I got a year to day.

So you know what's so funny about that? He was like, he was like, he thought that was a worst thing ever. He thought it was a piece of view. Like, he looked at me and just got up and walked off. And I thought, whatever. Like, I'm used to pissing people off. So I keep writing. I'd say a month or two later, and I'd pass him in me once in a while, he'd just give me the nod.

I'd say three months later, four months later, I walked by him one day. He was, we just, he was just mailed off my 2255. I go like, you're on your way, bro. You're on your way. He'd be like, look at me like he's pissed. And I keep walking. Months later, one day I walked back, he'd go, he'd say, a judge just gave the government, gave him 60 days.

I go, and you're almost out of here, you're out of here. You are out of here. You are out of, you better, who are you going to give you sin issues to? Who are you giving your tennis shoes to? You know? And he, the next thing, you know, a couple months later, he's like, government asked for an extension. I'd be like, what, 30 days?

You have 30 days? You have your spirit? Keep walking. A couple months later, he'd be like, we put it in our motion. You got it? Okay, cool. You're good. You're good, right?

You got a powerful argument. You got a powerful argument. And he'd be like, yeah, I know. A few more month. Listen, a year or two ago, but we're doing this every month's while. And then finally he's like, got denied. I go, oh, man, sure. That's fucked up.

I'm so sorry, bro. I go, that's fucked up. I said, when they put you in for a halfway house, he is next week. I'm like, yeah? Maybe a month or so later. He's like, hey, man. He's like, I got six months halfway house. I'm going.

He's like, I got like a month left. I'm like, good for you. Good for you. Well, you're sitting there for freaking 13 years. Oh, of course. Oh, listen, I can't tell you how many people I saw leave, come back on violation, leave, come back on violation, get their paper quashed, get a new charge, do their time, get, come back on violation again. Like, and literally like, you serve three sentences before I've left prison. Look what it did for you.

never do that. You ain't going back. No, I just got off supervised release. Right? You didn't go back about it. You know why? Because you saw all those people do it. So you knew. Yeah. Well, you know what I, you know what I always saw was the worst part for these people? What I realized was the common denominator was almost none of them were appreciative. None of them were humble. If you get out of prison with your delusions of grandeur, yeah. You're coming back. Oh yeah, man. I'm going to get an apartment. I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that, I'm going to do that. You're working at Duncan. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. You're working at Duncan. You're a barist. But I got out and I was like, they're like, what are your plans, bro? I'm like, I'm thinking McDonald's, bro. I'm thinking McDonald's and

live in somebody. Really? I thought it was going to be brista. No. I was looking high. Bro, that's that I tell you right now. I dated a chick that was hard. She said that shit's hard. Yeah, but they're good. She was like, no. They could do that. Boom. You got whatever you want. You're much more energy. You're much more energy than me. No. I want, I'm thinking like fries. You know, like you stir them up. Oh, yeah, I want to do the priest. I don't want to do a lot of, and you used to have horrible memory. Horrible memory.

Oh, I have a horrible memory too. The caffeine would definitely help your memory. And honestly, I don't know that I could, I don't know. I could put up with people's attitude like, oh, you gave me this and this and I. I could do the, oh, golly gee whiz, sir, I'm so sorry. I apologize. The problem is I feel like I get really behind and I get to, might get to that point where it's like, better to drink that shit.

I'll come over here right now. I don't give a fuck. On a plane. Come in here. We were on a two-hour plane coming from New Haven to Florida. We're sitting in the first two rows. We had the, oh, my God, the staff was laughing hysterical because there's one woman in the back. She's going, we were being too loud.

Right. She kept going like this. So we had this great gay guy who was there. He goes, honey. I said, I couldn't. I said, I get up there right now. He goes, honey, let me get you the mirror buds. Right.

I'm so sure. There's a mirror bud. I was. dying. I said, I said, that wouldn't be me. I'd be like, you don't like it. Get the fuck in the back. Bond out. Do you ever hear bond out? That's something that you, there's all these saying. You chose this. Oh, you, oh yeah, guys are like, you know, oh, it's too laugh. We bond out motherfucker. That's your fish. You shouldn't have got yourself here. Get out. Should have thought about that when you were robbing that bank. We used Connor all them people, Cox. You should have

thought about that. It's going to be loud in here. All right, man, I'm good. Thank you. We're the fan. The women's prison is the fan. The fan. There's no fan in... They have, you know, there's big industrial fans. What are you in the state? We're in the feds.

Criminal. Feds camp, big industrial fans. Women would be running across the fan across the camp with these big industrial fans. And then you have the women chasing them. That's my fan. It's like, are you kidding me? Where are we?

And the fans too loud. And it's, I'm cold, turn the fan. I'm taking that damn fan. It was the fan thing. And these are big-ass industrial fans with the big long poles. But we did have some of those. But we only use those when the ACs, if the AC went out. We had no AC.

Who doesn't have AC in federal prison? Danbury Federal Prison. Oh, no, no. It was 90 degrees. Anytime someone says to me, yeah, I went to state prison. Do you know what? Most people like, you have like a go-to thought. Most people is like, you know, what is it, you know, assault or this.

My first thought is when someone says federal prison, my first thought is always, they don't have, they don't have air conditioning. Yeah. Like the idea of being in Florida with no air conditioning. Yeah. Oh, it, that to me is, that's the torture. Was torture. Yeah. It was like laying there and the, and then all you hear is fighting over fans.

And then the fans would be. And then, of course, you get the COs, I'm taking the fan. away and you're like no please don't take our fan away take the microwave or that would do that with the TVs yeah we're taking the TVs like stop bro you're not taking the TVs you know for fact everybody's going to come out here yeah screaming and hollering playing cards it'll make you miserable yeah you're giving that back in an hour we had one CO one CO to 276 women in a building that was only to be held 160 it was crazy found out we had fun we had fun rub some dirt in it.

This is what my wife says all the time. Rub some dirt in it. We would make, we'd take the coffee and we'd make coffee. We'd melt chocolate around it. We'd be popping coffee beans all day long. Yeah, they could make some shit in there, boy. They could make some good stuff. Like I had a buddy name, they called them,

the nickname was slow motion because he had two hernias. I didn't even want to know. He had two hernias. So he moved very slow. He had two hernias they wouldn't fix. So he moved really. Real slow all the time. They did, they did try and help him.

They told him, medical told him, they said, stop eating the hot sauce. And he said, oh, that helps. I don't eat, yeah, like, the leading cause of death in Coleman was medical. Oh, you were in Coleman. Yeah, so slow motion would make, and we ended up calling motion. Yeah. They called the motion. Motion would make the best iced coffees.

I mean like Starbucks. Oh, I had the best fetishina alfredo I ever had with cremora. I had the best. Oh, yeah. And you think about it now. You're like, disgusting. But it was disgusting. Yeah, they would make cheesecake.

And it was like, yeah, it was. And you'd be like, no, I've had enough creamer today. Yeah. I've had a bag of creamer today already. Thank you. It was disgusting. But delicious. Yeah, with the shabangs.

It'd be like, oh. They would make the crust out of cookies. Yeah. Cookies and like honey, they would bake the crust and pour it and ice it and pour it in there. And you were like, I shit you not, this is a piece of cheesecake. And it was good. It was good.

I could only imagine. That's better than eating the food that said not for human consumption. Human consumption. Yeah. That's a policy. Yeah, of course. Probably not medically sound. It's probably fine.

Yeah, I'm sure it's fine. Nobody dies. For the most, I think that humans for a lot of our lives have been scavengers. For a lot of history. So we're probably designed for that. Oh, we're eating fettuccini Alfredo. We're kind of a scavenger. It's fine.

It's fine. It's fine. all fine. My wife was in Coleman Lowe when it was a low. Oh, wow. So she was in a camp. Yeah. So she used to mow my yard. No, she didn't, did she? Yeah. But you know, the guys would, you know, when the girls were on the mower, the girls on the mowers, the guys would go up to the, the windows and and the guards would have to be like, you know, they'd be, you know, what they call them, you know, gunning them. And they do it from a distance, then they're sniping them. But they're up close. It was gunning her, bro.

I was gunner. She was like five feet away. She knew. She knew what was going on. They'd hold their reg number up. Write me. Write me. You know, and the girls would be like...

Yeah, I'm going to write you and go to prison. Guards, they'd be walking around. Get away from the windows. Get away from the windows. We had this one woman who had a boyfriend down at the Danbury men's prison and she'd send her picture down there. You're going to get caught. You're sending your picture in your uniform. Like you're taking a picture up here in your uniform.

You're sending it down to the game. Two weeks later, she was gone. She was gone. She was gone in Brooklyn. It's like, what were you thinking? You're sending your picture down to me? You didn't have time to take Art App. No.

We didn't have it in Danbury. Danbury doesn't have Art App. Danbury's got three prisons now. My wife did four years. Oh, wow. I think she got five and a half, almost six years. I think she ended up doing like four, a little over four. That had to be hard, both of you win.

Well, no, we didn't know each other. Oh, you didn't know each other. I met her in the halfway house. I met her in the halfway house. She's the one I wore it out. Oh, you stalked. Yeah, stalked her into. Okay, yeah.

Yeah. Did you feel her calves the way I felt Dave's calves? No, you, no. He was planting a tree one day and I said, your calves are really, like, I'm such a loser. Like, I'm like sitting here touching his neighbors. I'm like, yeah, I definitely am a loser. Your cats are like Popeye.

And I'm like, what is wrong with me? She's caressing my cat. Yeah. And he's like, this girl's a nut. Yeah. And absolute nut. And I couldn't understand why you'd always run when I gave around. Oh, good times.

Good times. Right, right? And now look at us. Yeah. Yeah, I was going to say, it's always funny. She'll go, because we'll be playing a bed or something. Or she'll, every once in a while, she'll sit. there and we'll be on the couch. She didn't do this anymore because we got to an argument.

I mentioned it. And so now she won't say it anymore. She's like, I'm not going to say it. I was like, that's fine. We'll be doing something. And she'll look and she'll go, she, up until a week ago, she did this. She'd go, you're so handsome. And I go, remember we in the halfway house? And you told me that you didn't date guys like me? And I'd say, remember that? You're told me, I make fun of guys like you. You're a city boy. I would never. You remember you said that? Never, never. Like what I said to you the other day. remember when you had arms and now every day

he's got the he's pumping iron yeah it doesn't take much it pushed you over the edge remember that time you had arms women are brutal yeah we do we're God forbid

you say something like that to her oh no you couldn't I can't say anything he can't even say oh yeah I have to just say you're like what did you say it's just got to be you're you're so pretty And so here's the thing.

I would say it so often initially when we started dating. I'd say she's, you're, you know, you're so pretty. You're so that she'd get, I am not. Oh my God. She got to a point where I just stopped saying it. Now it's always like, you never tell me I'm beautiful anymore. I'm like, oh my God. Yeah.

Oh my. And then if I do, she's like, you're lying. What is this? You're just lying. But you are beautiful, Dave. And then I'll say to him, I look fat in this. God forbid. That's a mistake.

He says, maybe a little frumpy. No. And then. No, you just got to say. I'm not falling for this. I'm not doing this. I'm not doing this right now. You know why?

Because I say, I have to call my son because my son will tell me the truth. And then it gets mad. And he's like, okay, maybe a little frumpy. And I'm like, really,

you think I look frumpy in this? You bought this for me. It is. It's a horrible situation. It is. Relationships are, yeah. Relationships are hard.

Imagine doing that while you're in prison. We stayed married through the whole thing. Oh, no, bro. I wouldn't, no. I couldn't. I always talk about this one guy I'd met. I've told this story probably. five times the last two months.

Whereas real quick, though, is this guy when I first got arrested, I've been around like to two, three weeks. And this guy's getting called to visitation all the time. And he's, I mean, he's getting like one or two letters a day with photos in him. Oh, wow.

And he comes in, he opens him up, he'd read the little note. He just, he looked through the pictures and tear him up because you don't want the other guys to get him. And I mean, the chick is gorgeous. I'm like, bro, who's that?

He's like, that's the chick I used to date. he'd tear him up and throw him off. And we're here, he'd go, yeah, yeah, this is us at such and such. And then he'd tear him up and throw him away. Because you don't want the other guys. Yeah, you don't have. Yeah, weirdos. So, and then I was like, what's the deal?

She's right. And he's like, oh, she's not, I broke up with her. Like, we'd been dating a few years. He was, this isn't my first bid. Because I had been, he'd been locked up for a few years before. Yeah. He said, I got out. He was in a car.

He was driving some guy around that had drugs on him. They violate. Whatever. He got three years. I forget what he got. But anyway, there was a gun or something, I forget. You got four years, three years, whatever it was. And he's like, and I, so I broke up with her.

I said, look, I'm going to do the time. She said, she was going to do the whole time with me. And I said, no, I'm going to do the time. And if I get out and you're available, that's great. But I don't want to hear from you. I don't want to. And I was like, why? He's like, you don't know yet.

You just got here. He said, I don't want to be that guy on the phone Saturday morning, screaming at, at her going, where were you last night? Why didn't you answer the phone? Or having talking to somebody who's, saw her at a club and he said those guys do really hard time. He said, I don't want to be that guy.

I don't want to do that. Yeah. I'd get the phone call from my son. Dad's on the deck on his phone. Talking to somebody. Oh, what a little, what a little. Right? Oh.

He'd come to visiting and he'd have to see me first. And they'd fight. The kids would fight. I need to see mom first. I need to talk to him about something. And the only time he'd come in is he had to say something about him. I think dad. Got something weird going on.

I'm like, your grandmother cooks for him every night. He's running my business. He's here. What do you think? Now, he's on the phone. He's doing something. My God. Are these your kids?

Yeah. Oh, hell no. No. You little fuckers. I said my son's my, he's like my angel. Oh, no. No, no, absolutely not. He's still my angel.

He'll still sell him down the river. No. My, oh, no, no, no. Oh, no. And, you know, my wife does, it's funny, she'll be doing something that'll take hours for her to respond to attacks. Think anything. Whatever you're working. Yeah.

Now it's too late. That was 20 years. Isn't it funny? And I say that, I'm like, look. But if I don't immediately respond. Yeah. Why didn't you respond? What are you doing this and that?

But, you know, all. And then I'll be like, first of all, I'm, I'm five foot six. I'm 20 pounds over fucking weight. I barely work out anymore. I'm 55 years old. Nobody wants me. I promise you if it was in me to do it. I have no options.

And you just want to fry. You can't even know. What are you doing? You know, she just, it's insane. I'm like, you're an insane person. You know, and she's like, I know. We're all that way. It's, you know, like two days later, she's like, she'll walk up.

She'll go, you know, the other day, you know, that was my period talking, right? You know, I love you. Wait, so she goes through metapause. Oh my God. Then it's even worse. I can't do it, bro. I can't do it. It's even worse.

The poor guy, he kicked him to the post office. And I'm like, where'd you go? Yeah. I could have been dead. I could have gotten into a car accident. The drama. Yeah. I'm all about the drama.

I could. So Maria comes and stays a weekend because we were just getting to know each other. And she goes, you have it so made. He gives you coffee. So now I'm like, you can't do that in front of people anymore. People think you're too nice. They don't know the real you. Do not give me coffee when people are here anymore.

He's like, you're a nut. There's something wrong with you. You're a not. I'm like, yes, I'm a not. I went to prison. I survived prison. I still don't take my name off the internet. Of course I'm a not.

I have a feeling prison had little to do with this. But yeah. You are right there. Yeah, yeah. I haven't a lot of love before that. It's insane. And the worst part is that I think I just laugh. Most of the time when she's doing crazy,

I just start laughing. It makes her even more mad, even more angry. You think it's funny? I think you're a little out of your mind. Yeah, I think you've been eating, you know, crazy sandwiches. See, I'm the one who laughs at myself, though.

And he's like, I broke my nose. I told you that. So everybody who could see me knows, my nose isn't really this fat. I'm just really, I broke my nose. I'm putting makeup on it. He goes, they're going to know. You broke your nose.

It's all swollen. I put this much makeup on. I have so much makeup on my nose right now, and I don't wear makeup. So I said to it the whole way, the whole way here. I'm saying, how's my nose look? How's my nose like? You're going on a podcast about criminal. She stopped for some say stupid podcast.

Stupid podcast about criminal justice. Does it do you think anybody cares what your nose looks like? they're not even going to know it's all cut up underneath. I said, they're going to think you beat me. And if he asks, I'm going to say you beat me. Oh, I would say it. I would say it. Yeah.

Yeah, I definitely, I definitely would be. Yeah. Yeah. I do the whole, like, it just goes to, goes to, like, grab my arm or something. I go, don't touch me. You know, I do that. And people look, she gets embarrassed. You know, she's like an introvert.

Like, I can care less of everybody. Yeah, me too. I can cure less. And he's an introvert. Yeah. So it's the same thing. I get to, you know, I'll call him out or he'll be across the room and I'll be like,

Dave, scream it. And then I'll call him Sparky. Oh, it's, don't call me that. What is wrong with you? And I'm like, oh, you don't like that name.

Everybody's going to think you call me that. Like, Sparky. Yeah, don't let me know it bothers you. That was your first mistake. Now I know. Now I know how to bother them. No. Dumb.

Well, it was great chatting with you. It really was. I'm glad we came and did this. So evolution, we follow women from the minute they get indicted throughout their entire journey through the criminal justice system. We never leave their side at all. They're given peer mentors. We have women inside prison waiting for you.

So when you get to prison, they can teach you. And while you're in prison, we also have kids that you're, we have kids that are paired with your kids. So your kids are never alone. Your family never is never alone. We have husbands that speak to husbands. We have teenagers that speak with teenagers. We will never ever leave if they have a question.

If there's an issue with visitation, we help with that. We have really good relationships within the Bureau of Prisons. And if you want to get in touch with us, it's www. www.evolutionreentry.org. You can donate. You can visit. us. You can give us a call if you know anybody or if you were into trouble and never a fee. Never a fee.

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