Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - Kardashian's Realtor Arrested In $6M Ponzi Scheme

Episode Date: May 7, 2025

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Oh hungry, oh Henry! I'm Sean Property of the Kardashians. I raised maybe $10 or $15 million. I found a little glitch in the accounting system that enabled me to keep 100% of the commission. My sophomore year at USC, I learned that I have an older cousin who works as a managing partner at Goldman Sachs.

So my mom called and said, why don't you just go spend some time with him at Goldman Sachs? I'm like, okay, so for that summer, I'd get there at 4 o'clock in the morning, five, four or five days a week. I never won't a tie before my ties to like right here. And I walk in and my cousin's like, so you're the baseball player. And I said, yes, he said, well, what do you want to do?

So I'm thinking about going to graduates. You didn't know him? He was much older. And I knew that he was kind of infamous and managed a lot of money, very successful. So I knew of him, but my mom was proactive in reaching out and my son may have interest in this. I just want him to come and learn from you. So I spend that summer with him at Goldman Sachs.

And I said, I mean, maybe I want to go to graduate school or maybe going to sales and become a stockbroker. And he's like, nothing more than he used Carsman. use car salesman if you're going to be a stockbrok you need to go to graduate school or get a business degree but i was very enticed by the amount of money they were managing there right 50 100 million dollars it was intoxicating like playing baseball in front of 20 or 30 000 people so i said i'm no longer going to go to graduate school when i graduate i want to go into the brokerage business so when i graduated USC in 1997 i began working at merrill lynch and just a young cold calling

salesman i graduated college pretty fit is an athlete within a year i've put on 40 pounds, rationalizing. It's the long days of hedge funds and mutual funds bringing in food, in at five, out at 10, cold walking, cold calling to ensure I'm at the top of my list, right? So I get my securities license. And after about a year at Merrill Lynch, I raised maybe 10 or 15 million dollars. And the brokerage industry was going through a change where they said, we don't want you to work by yourself. We want you to become part of a team. I said, I kind of want to sink or swim on my own. I'm totally fine. They said, we want you to be part of a team. And I said, no. And they said, we'll reassess in 60 days. If you want to remain at Merrill Lynch, you're going

to have to join a team. So over the next 60 days, I was watching this business more than I ever had. And I started to see a lot of friends of mine flunk out of the business. And here's what happened. These junior brokers, maybe you have $5, $10 million. You go to USC, UCLA, Cal. You have $10, $5, $15 million under business. You then merge your book of business with this senior broker. And by merging your book of business, you think it's going to lead to internal life because you've got the senior broker mentoring you. But here's what happened. The junior brokers would end up managing the senior broker's book of business all day, doing all the client services work. Then that junior broker is no longer prospecting to bring in business because he's doing all

the senior partners work. And then all these guys start to flunk out of the business. So one day I'm in the human resource room and this guy Mike's like, oh, I got $10 million under management. And today I'm like, how did you do it? Money manager, divorce attorney. How are you getting all this business? He's like, well, a few of the guys I was mentoring. It didn't quite work out, which told me he took over their book and business while they're going to go do stock quotes at Charles Schwab. And that's when I felt like I'm descending. This is a wretched, sickening business where everyone looks out for themselves. And he's stealing from these young brokers. And I said, that will never be me. So Merrill Lynch gave me an ultimatum. I said, no, I had worked hard. I built a small little book in business. I left. I went to a small firm called Crowell Whedon. And within a year, I had about $40 million under management. Through hard work, I'm not churning. I'm not looking to make a trade to generate a commission. I'm 23, 24, making $3,000, $400,000. I was successful.

But I always tell people, it's easy for someone you don't know to say no to you. It's difficult when it's a friend. So for two or three years into the business, I didn't want to ask any of my friends that I played baseball with at USC for their money, like Jack Jones, Aaron Boone, Jeff Jenkins. I didn't want to ask them for their money. I didn't want my buddies to tell me no. Right.

But after a few years in the business, I began to call my friends. Like, hey, I'd love to manage your money. And they're like, well, we've never heard of Crowell Whedon, or you've got to go through my agent. So I met with an agent named Danny Lozano and Beverly Hills. He ran the Beverly Hills Sports Council. And they had like Jose Cansego and Trevor Hoffman and Barry Bonds, some really big agents.

And he said to me, you're young. You work at a firm I've never heard of. I have a friend, a partner. His name is Kenny. He's seven years older than you. He's at Bear Stearns. Why don't I set up a meeting for you too? And I just said a moment ago that I was averse to partnerships

because I felt like the senior partner is going to steal from you and take all of your work. But I wanted to be at Bear Stearns at 26. And I wanted to work with these athletes. So then I agree to take this meeting. Okay. So by the way, we interviewed a guy named Joseph Vitale, and he, it's funny, he explains exactly that. Like, he explains the team how, you know, you have one person who would be calling and generate. Then you had a senior broke.

And every time he did that, these guys stole his book of business. They steal and leverage off your hard work. to the day I died, the idea of working hard and having someone steal and leverage off and take credit for it, it's sickening to me and it really tainted me. So like the values I had as a younger man, an athlete, disciplined, character, hard work. They went by the wayside in this business where I felt like everyone was out for themselves. And I also admired the wrong men, right? So I admire the man who maybe had the nice watch, the country club, the beautiful home, but might have been on his fourth marriage and he needed seven drinks before he could get into the driveway and purposely

took business trips on the weekends to avoid the responsibility of being a husband and father. I just admire them because I thought they made a lot of money and were very successful. And it caught up to me when I went to Bear Stearns, I took that deal. And people often say, you know, you don't wake up with intentions to break the law and go to prison. That's true. My bad decisions were subtle. When I went to Bear Stearns, I had about 40 million under management. And my senior partner had 100.

So combined 140. And our agreement was I would get 25% of the commissions, he would get 7%. In other words, you call in, you do a trade, it's a $1,000 commission, I get $250, you would get $7.50 as the senior partner. That was fair when I went to bear. But after about six months, I brought in... I mean, it's fair if you're both making phone calls and bringing in... It was fair because when he had been a broker seven years longer than me, so he had much more assets under management. So based on the trailing 12-month commissions, we deduced that 25 to me, 75 to him would be fair based on what we had already accomplished in the business.

And he had much more. It was fair when we went there. I was very comfortable with it. Right. Because I was going to benefit off clients that he had had for many years and get a percentage of that. I was comfortable with it. But after six months at Bear, I brought in a client that was doing around $100,000

a month in production every single month. And I did what anyone should ever do if they want to raise. It's not based on need or want. I have student loans. I want a new car. It's I've earned it. So I went into my senior partner's office after about six months. There's some arrogance to me.

I'm 26. Stearns and I walk in and I put like my commissions that I had been generating in front of him. I'm like, boom, here he go, man, here it is. And he looks at he's like, what's this? I said, well, I'm at 25 percent. You know, I'm doing $100,000 a month just with one client and the other clients. I think I've earned a raise. I'm not saying take me to 50 percent.

We've only been partners for six months. What about 35 percent? What about three days? So he looks at this and he begins to kind of laugh and chuckle. And he's like, you know, you're at Bear Stearns because of. with me. And I'm like, oh, that's right back to the brokers at Merrill who flunked out of the business. The guy is taking credit for their work. It's like, you're at Bear Stearns because of me. You never would have closed this client without me. This hedge fund could go belly up

tomorrow, and I'm not going to give you a raise because of it. You lack patience. You don't fully appreciate the opportunity you have here. I'm not giving you a raise. So I was angry. You know, I felt pressured to, just to be told, thank you. I'm in at five. I'm out at 10. He's in at 10, leaving at 3, going to golf at Belay or L.A. Country Club. under the guise that he's growing our book of business, but I was working that book of business all day. So I began to rationalize this unfairness. He's out for himself.

And then you can't ever go to prison, regardless of the crime, without seizing some opportunity. And this, what I'm going to tell you next isn't what sent me to prison, but it put me on this dissent about decision-making. So about a week later, after he didn't give me that raise,

and he's like, get out. When you call in to do that trade, and it was a $1,000 commission, if you look hard enough, you'll find a way. I found a little glitch in the accounting system at Bear Stearns that it, enabled me to keep 100% of the commission. And someone else would call a month later, and it would be a $5,000 commission,

of which I'm only owed 25%. I found a glitch that enabled me to keep $5,000, the entire commission. And in my mind, I didn't think I wasn't taking anything that I had not earned or was not entitled to because he wouldn't give me this raise. Right. I wasn't caught. I wasn't caught at Bear Stearns, but I began, I got consumed 24 hours a day. Like, they're going to find out.

There's this great quote I read in prison by Nietzsche, who said that the value of something isn't what you attain with it. It's what it costs you. So I had attained the commissions by stealing from my senior partner because he wouldn't give me the raise. Totally wrong, totally theft. But what was it costing me? My health 24 hours a day. They're going to find out. Compliance is going to find out. And I began to neglect my clients and my health suffered. And it put me on this path where I was eventually standing for count in prison. Well, how long did that go on until it turned to be something else? Sorry. The 16th of June 2001, Kenny and I, my partner, we took a, we got a million dollar check to go to UBS, which is a

competing firm, Century City. And I was so happy to leave Bear Stearns because I'm like, I don't even care about the million bucks. I'm just so grateful they didn't find out that I'd been stealing from him. Right. I didn't care. It puts that. It was gone.

It stays over at that firm and doesn't move with you. So now you've got a new set of rules. So can I ask you a question? Yes. You said a million dollars. So most people don't, I understand that was a bonus, right? Yes. So UBS came to you guys and you had a lunch or something and then they offered you a bonus.

Like we'll give you a million dollars to come over. Yes, it's a, it's a negotiation over several months. They look at your assets under management. They look at your production, the value of this book. And some of the lower tiered firms like Prudential may offer you $2 million because they don't have the name of some of the higher end firms, like a UBS at the time will offer you less because you have the prestige and the resources that come with the UBS. So we probably could have got $2.5 million out of Prudential. but we wanted the UBS brand in recognition.

So does Bear Stearns know this is happening? No, no, no, it's crazy. It's really wicked. It's actually, it's kind of like the prison industry a little bit, very competitive and not always so nice. Right. So when we resign, you resign on a Friday afternoon, and you go in, and I remember telling my branch manager,

freaks out, goes crazy, tries to like lock us in the office, will not let us leave. But of course, we want to get out, because we want to get to UBS and start calling our clients and telling them to transfer their account to us because in so doing UBS is handing all of our accounts, which technically the firm owns the accounts. It's not us. We're the broker

of record. So they began to hand out all of our accounts, disperse it to the top brokers and they start calling. Justin is alone working here. We don't know if there was some shady stuff going on. I've reviewed your portfolio. There are so many things I would have done differently. It's going to be a pain in the ass for you to even switch if they even call you. I understand they're working with bigger clients.

Now, they may not even call you, period, because your account is not big enough. I'd love to come and see you tomorrow morning. So it's a, you know, imagine being a broker and your branch manager calls you in and says, here's $70 million in assets. Keep as much as you can. So I'm not enjoying the million bucks or the bonus. It's like, I have got to get the money over or UBS is going to get angry that I haven't brought over the money. They have paid me to bring in. Total stress, total freak out time at 27. Like the Jerry McGuire. Did you ever see Jerry McGuire? He's on the phone trying to call everybody. Yes. They're calling on the other line. That's it. Yeah. That's exactly what

It's like, so we take the money, we go to UBS June of 2001, and then something terrible happens. After about six months, we'd only brought over, like, half of the book of business. And UBS management's calling us in, and they're like, hey, man, where's the money? But they know what you have to go through. Like, they know what? They expect a bigger retention rate. They're like, what, where's the money? We give you this book of business.

And then I see friends of mine who get big bonuses like this, too, and like they're getting fired. They claim for ethical, reason, nonsense. They're just not producing. They get rid of you. and they claw back and they want the bonus. It's a forgivable loan you pay over five years. You pay the tax on it every month. You got to make like 15 grand before you get one penny in your paycheck.

I got all these million things going through my mind at 27. Like, what have I done? Why did I take this money? I should have stayed at bare. But wait, I couldn't have stayed at bare because they were going to find out I took money from my partner. This is bad. Right.

So after about six months, I finally realized what happened? A number of our clients didn't transfer their book of business. And when I was so obsessed about getting caught from taking those commissions or I was enamored by our clients in the big leagues going on these private jets and going to spring training. And, you know, I began to neglect some of those clients who gave me my start because I really built my business by cold walking. I would walk into a doctor or dentist or accountant office along Ventura Boulevard in Southern

California right out of USC and hand someone my card. And they'd say, it takes a lot of courage to walk in here. And a dentist would say, well, come to my Rotary Club next week and speak. They're begging for speakers. And I'd speak in front of 30 people, four of them would be dentists. doctors and they'd hire me. That's how I grew my book of business. But a number of them felt as if they had been ignored because I became enamored by the bigger client and that's when it hit me. It is not illegal to treat clients differently, but it is unethical. And if you're out for

your own self-interest, you should treat everyone the same way. I didn't. Then we begin to feel pressure to prove worthy of this bonus. Pressure to hit the numbers, to justify this bonus. And that changed one year to the day later, the 16th of June 2002, when a hedge fund manager named Keith called and said, hey, I got a $6 million hedge fund. Can I transfer it to UBS? I'm like, yes, you can. Yes, you can. I'm ready to come and get the money. And that's when things, I actually knew when I took his money, that it would go bad. Growing up in Encina with opportunity, you don't think prison bad, but I knew by taking his money, it would go bad, in part because I had worked with him years earlier in the industry. And I knew, to put it lightly, he would say some shady

things to close a deal, to close a deal. But those feelings didn't dissuade me from taking his money. get my numbers up all right i do have a question at this i mean sorry i was just yeah go ahead um can you like what was the glitch that you found to take the hundred percent of the commission is it easily describable or sure it's very it's very describeable okay so when when you're doing two three hundred thousand four hundred thousand dollars a month in production you might not notice five or $10,000 in one direction at one time. So in the brokerage industry, I would have my own individual number, which was JP89, and my partner's number was KS91. And then we'd have a joint one of JPKP 95. So all commissions were supposed to go into the joint, but then I would go in and I would

move some of those individual commissions to my own individual number. When you're doing three or $400,000 a month, you might not notice $5 or $10,000 or $15,000 over a period of time. So he would have to have been very diligent to that. He wasn't paying attention to it. And that was part of the benefit. He wasn't paying attention to, you know, he's in at 10 a.m., out at three, golfing. He's not paying attention to it every single day. So I was able to work my way around that.

But there was always this concern that I would get caught. And I was never caught until I disclosed it in the second chapter of my book. And I sent him a letter from prison apologizing and letting know that I've done it. When I met with the FBI, they learned about it. And they questioned me about it. And they said, the last thing we're concerned about is you taking commissions from your partner, who was also culpable in this. We're just more concerned about the people who were heard in this case.

So things go bad with Keith about six or seven months into our relationship. He transfers over the $6 million, and then he lost the $6 million. Now, it's not illegal to lose money, but it's gone. That's a rap. Six million? He loses all six million? Gone. How? How does that happen?

Bad trades. Like, if he was going long stock, you should go short and vice versa. You've never seen trading like it before. atrocious, horrific, awful. And my job is only to execute the trades as the stockbroker. So I'm not managed, these are the rationalizations of white collar crime. I'm not managing the money. He raises the money. My trade is, my job is to execute the trades on an unsolicited basis. They're his clients, not mine. Right. And compliance is aware of these losses. But the commissions were extensive, like $100,000 to $200,000 a month, every single month.

So after six months, the money's gone. It's like, oh, not great. It's gone, but you've made money. We've made money by doing our job in executing the trades, but we see the losses, and then something terrible happened. He raised another $6 million. So my partner and I were sitting in our office thinking, oh, this is not good, because I don't think it would be a good sales presentation if Keith went into your home. Like, hey, Matt, so I'd love for you to invest in my hedge fund. I'm down 100% this year. I really think things are going to turn. Give me your million dollars.

Probably not the best sales pitch. you'd say call security, get this guy out of here. So by raising another $6 million, we knew that he was lying to investors to raise money, and that money was housed at UBS, and we continued to execute trades. But for the first year, that's all I ever did was execute the trades. I never spoke to any of his investors. I never attended a meeting. But when you're dealing with someone like that, and I, too, am unethical.

I engage in criminal conduct, and I'm so focused on hitting my numbers, which I was now beginning to do every month. You have one client doing 100 to 200 a month, plus your other book of business, you're crushing it. UBS is thrilled. They're happy. I'm proving worthy of the bonus. And I'm making a ton of money. It gets to a point where when you're working with someone unethical or dishonest like that, they're going to call in a favor. And that's when things really began to change. Are you married at this time? Are you just working 80 hours a week? You don't have time for anybody. Yeah, working 80 hours a week, arrogant and titled about 40 pounds, you know, heavier, sort of that

selfish would only work with you if you could help me. If you couldn't help me, I'd have no interest in talking to you. I was fundamentally different than the person my parents and coaches had raised driving a nice car. You're living in a nice condo somewhere? You're just putting away money? Both. Everything you can have had, the homes, the condos, the Rolexes, the country clubs and I'm all convincing myself that I'm doing what I was

supposed to do. But no, not married. I would have been a terrible boyfriend. I was engaged once, but she left and I didn't blame her because I was consumed with work and advancing my career. I didn't understand work-life balance. So I would not have been a good candidate for anyone, regardless of how much money I made. I wasn't like a great dude. And I knew that. So after about a year or so of money in and money out, he asked me to attend like a meeting. I was like, oh, I didn't want to go. I didn't want to go. And I'm thinking like, no, dude, I don't want to go, basically is what I said. And we both knew that I was going to

the meeting. And I'm like, well, who's going to be at the meeting? And this is terrible. I can't believe I've done this for 15 years. And it's terrible. So I attend a meeting with like an 88-year-old investor. You're going to think differently after this and made lead to some dislikes on the video because it's not good. Not great. So it's like an 88-year-old investor, my client, Keith, the hedge fund manager, and just in the stockbroker. So I'm at this meeting in Encino, about three blocks from where I played Little League, and I'm at this meeting, and this 80-year-old investors has his accountant there. I sit down in the meeting, I'm like, what am I here?

What is happening? And this accountant says, Justin, do you think an 88-year-old investor should have $3 million in a basket of gross stocks? Coca-Cola, Merck. And I'm thinking of myself, $3 million in my mind, before I went to this meeting, I saw this balance in this hedge fund.

It's less than a million dollars. Right. So I attend a meeting where this elderly investor in his accountant thinks he has three million. I've never met or spoken with them before. I'm like sitting here. Like what the hell is happening? They think they have three million.

There's less than a million in the hedge fund. Now I have a dilemma. What do I do? What do I say? So I tried to hedge my bets. And I said, well, I should have just ran. I'd have been fine. I'm out.

Instead, I'm like, well, I don't. manage the money, Keith does. You've hired him. I simply execute the trades as the broker. I'm trying to protect myself in the accountant pushes and says, Justin, if you were an 88-year-old investor, would you have $3 million in a basket of gross stocks? And I said, well, if it were my money and if I had $3 million at $88, I would not have an in gross stocks at a fixed income to get that income less risk. He doesn't have enough time left. And then the account looks at me and says, I agree. Would you please help reallocate the $3 million that remains for our client, reallocate it in a way that you would if you were 88 years old? So when I attended this meeting,

I later learned this elderly investor's money had been gone for years. Well before the Sedgehan manager ever hired me, he'd been running this fraud. It was gone. And then I attend the meeting and I gave him the impression that it was still around. And then I said, yes, I will help you allocate the money. So the meeting ends and I start yelling at my client. I'm like, dude, his money is, it's gone. He doesn't have three million dollars and he's like, it's been gone like four years. I just need some more time for the market to turn. This is the Ponzi. This is the rationalization. More time. Yes, I need more time. The market's going to turn. You're not, please, if he finds out his money's been gone for four years, it'll kill him. And these are the rationalizations that are

part and parcel I call a crime. I think it'll more like he'll call the authorities. And that's eventually what happened. So after that meeting, I did what I had to protect myself. So my partner and I went to compliance and we went to the branch manager at UBS and Stanford and said, we believe this person is saying things to raise money. He generates heavy commissions every single month. It may be a good idea to protect ourselves when people continue to send money.

So part of the reason UBS scratched it, huge check, I did too, down the road to all the victims to make them whole, was because of what we all did next. We created a disclosure document at UBS. It said, you, you, anyone in this world, if you choose to invest in this hedge fund, sign this disclosure document stating that we do not endorse, solicitor recommend this investment. Matt, you are investing in this hedge fund of your own free will. We are simply executing the trades as the broker. So rather than fire the client, report the fact that he had been lying, we scheme to ensure the gravy training commission would continue while protecting ourselves from any fallout.

So we get the disclosure document signed. I wasn't a father at the time, but I held that disclosure document like as closely as I held my newborn baby. I became a dad a few years back. This is going to protect me. If anything, it emboldened me to continue to make bad decisions because I felt like UBS was they were with me.

We were aligned. Of course, I later learned you can't put a corporation in prison. You could put individual people in prison. And then with that letter, continue to make bad decisions. And eventually it all came crashing down the 15th of December, 2004, when my branch manager called me into his office. Is this just because of this one trade? Or this guy starts to bring, does he start bringing in more clients and saying, can you come to the meeting? He's continuing to bring in clients. I attended a meeting with a gentleman. A lot of these small hedge funds would build their book of business by buying other little small books of business. So they'd find a guy who's 75 years old with $3 million under management and say, I'm going to buy your book of business. You've got three million.

I'm going to give you 5% or 150 grand. It's a retirement gift. So the only way that Keith began to raise money was finding these small-time money managers in buying their book of business, giving them a fee. That's how he began to grow his assets under management. So I'm in a meeting. But it's really a Ponzi team. He's just buying.

The people he is buying the book of business from don't know that. He's giving them fraudulent documents stating that he has a return. Right. He's running a pond. They don't know that. They viewed it as like, wow, I'm retiring out of the business. I'm going to sell my book of business to him. And I'm going to get a nice little check on the way out.

This is a win-win. Like he's, he's, what a, it's not a loophole, but I mean, that's a way to just continue. Well, that's what, that's what, what Madoff did was he was started gobbling up other, other hedge funds that he could then dump that money into his complete hole and use that money to continue to pay out the new or the investors, the older investors. So this guy's doing the same thing, but he's doing smaller. ones and he just keeps dumping it and he's just losing it mean always losing what he how long did this last for him how long had he been doing he's been doing before you yeah he ran the fraud for

several years and i later learned the reason he transferred the six million to ubs was because bear sterns fired him they didn't want his business anymore right so eventually one of these money managers he was going to buy a book his book of business from had some questions or concerns and they wanted to meet with us at ubs so i'm at this part of this what happens next is in my plea agreement with the government. So I'm in, I'm at this meeting in Century City with this guy, John, who's going to sell this book of business to Keith. It's like a $5 million book of business. It's me and my senior partner, Kenny, and we're at this meeting and my senior partner, Kenny, says to John, this guy who's going to sell the book. So why are you thinking about investing with Keith or giving him

your money? And that's the wrong question. We know he loses every penny and he's a thief. Why ask that question? And John, the money manager says, well, I've seen rate of return on his hedge fund performance sells itself. So I tend to be verbose like you. I could wrap it up at times like you. I had no problem wrapping it up at that moment. That's it. I have a meeting upstairs within four minutes the meeting had ended.

And I'm back up at my partner's office and we're like, oh my good God, this dude's going to sell his $5 million book of business under a rate of return that does not exist. And I foolishly believe that by keeping my mouth shut and turning the other way, I would be protected. But of course, the government used omitting as deliberately his line. I should have stepped up and say, run.

don't give him your money, go in a totally different direction. Instead, I had rationalized that UBS was complicit with me. We had this disclosure document. If you send the $5 million, sign this disclosure document, the commissions are going to continue. The money came in, and he lost it. And eventually it came crashing down the 15th of December 2004 when I'm on a lunch date at Houston's in Century City,

and my branch manager set up. I'm sorry, where's all this taking place? It's Century City. Century City is where? Right next to Beverly Hills. Okay, okay. I was going to say, for some reason, in my mind, all of this was happening in New York. No, I did, I trained at New York when I was at Maryland.

Okay. So I grew up, I was living in Studio City at the time, part of the San Fernando Valley. I would take Coldwater Canyon over to Beverly Hills and then Century City. Okay. So I'm on a lunch date at Houston's and my branch manager calls and says, um, get back to the effing office in 10 minutes. I'm like, Rich, I'm on a lunch date. He said, get back. It's in 10 minutes.

Right. And I said, okay. Does he talk to you like this a lot? No. So I lied to this very nice woman. I'm on a lunch date with, tell her there's some important client waiting. I wrap up the meeting. And as I made the walk from Houston to the Century City Mall back to the 30th floor,

I knew my life had changed forever. I knew my life would change when I took his money the 16th of June 2002. I knew it. And as I walk into my branch manager's office, I see two compliance managers. I see my assistant Kate, who had been dating my senior partner, Kenny, now, which is a nightmare. I see Kenny there, and I see my branch manager. And my branch manager says, sign your name for me eight times. I'm like, okay, he puts out a document, sign it eight times.

I'm like, well, what am I signing? And that day, that accountant or advisor for that elderly investor who attended that meeting, he faxed a letter to my branch manager, and the cover letter said, is this true? And the second page of that fax was a letter on UBS letterhead where my client, Keith, would send to his investors that said, if my hedge fund ever goes belly up, not to worry, UBS will step in and ensure your investment for total market value sign Justin Piperney

So I learned when he would come into my office Probably listen to me Complaint about my senior business partner Who didn't appreciate me You know sometimes in life You just need a thank you or an appreciation I value you Sometimes that's more valuable in the money I never got it

When he would leave you would take UBS letterhead And when his investors had concerns About their investment he would send them a letter And forge my signature on UBS letterhead So he sent it to this elderly investor stating that, oh, you still have the three million bucks. So his advisor says, is this true? With Justin Beperni's signature on the letterhead.

So my branch manager is like, sign your name for me eight times, and immediately the signatures were inconsistent. It was clear my client had forged my name. My signature was measurably different. So everyone, I try to get, I try to get righteous. I'm like, oh, who do we call? Is it the SECs, the Department of Justice? That bastard.

What has he done? This guy's got to be held to count. I don't know about any of you. I'm no longer comfortable working with him. I think it's time to go in a different direction. But what happens in white collar crime is everyone begins to play dumb. Like nobody know nothing, right? It's kind of like prison.

Like you turn the other way from conduct. It's like exactly what sent me to prison is exactly what you should do in prison if you see a guy with an iPhone or doing stuff like that. So everyone plays dumb. My senior partner, Kenny, he's like, I don't really know that account that well. Justin does more the day to day. And I'm like, what, what are you talking about? Then my branch manager's like, so tell me about this guy, Kevin. I'm like, it's Keith. Well, tell me more about this guy, Kevin, who runs his hedge fund. I'm like,

it's Keith. You are part of the indemnification or disclosure document we signed. You told me it was a great freaking idea. Everyone's plain dumb. Now, the compliance dudes, they're freaking out. You should not go into compliance if you're a people pleaser or you can be manipulated because their job is to tell brokers, no, he's not the right fit for our company, but all it takes is some Lakers or Dodger seats for them to turn the other way. So the compliance managers are freaked out, too. They lose their job. So that's when the investigation begins. So UBS said, would you be opened a meeting with UBS Corporate Council the next day. Right.

So when you say investigation, this is an internal investigation, not federal. Yes. So everyone's plain dumb. I'm like, sure. So a big mistake. Now, I mentioned my mom's a paralegal for some really high profile like lawyers. I should have known to lawyer up. But I just presume we're all on the same team.

We were not on the same team. So I go on the next day and I interview with UBS corporate council for like eight hours. And the interview didn't go great, Matt. It didn't go great. Because at the end of the interview, they're like, we don't want you to come in until this is resolved. Well, first of all, you can clearly see I didn't sign this paper. Right.

So you're still in a position where you can say, I didn't, what's the problem? I didn't tell him that we would step in and pay any losses. Are there losses? Were you still like, why? First of all, are there losses? A lot of losses. And even though I didn't sign the disclosure document, I'm plain dumb. Like he forged my name.

I'm insulted. This is terrible. The problem in white collar crime is there are victims. right so you have this oh yes those guys yes and at the time i'm 50 now at the time i wasn't so concerned about people who lost money was all like self-pressurement i was selfish i was arrogant it was all self-preservation whatever i have to do you know it's like someday my children will watch this and they'll know their dad went to prison i want to share lessons i've learned through this and i've got to speak openly and honestly about all the bad idea take you back to my time but it's disgusting to talk about

the I interviewed the UBS corporate counsel for eight hours they say don't come in until this is resolved I'm like what about Kenny my senior partner they're like we'll worry about him later so nothing happens for three weeks then January 11th 2005 I get a call for my branch managers like we'll come back to the office if we want to talk

I'm like great everything's good I got my desk back and I walk in and I look at my office and there's two huge dudes standing outside my office like taking stuff out I'm like, this doesn't feel good. They're taking the USC degree off the wall, like the photo from the golf tournament. They're emptying all my stuff.

It's in a box. Two huge dudes. Then I walk into my branch manager's office. He reaches out to sit down. We're letting you go for inconsistent answers you gave when you met with the UBS Corporate Council last month. I'm like, let me understand this. You're not letting me go for turning the other way

and helping facilitate this fraud so we could all get paid. You're letting me go for inconsistent answers I gave. And he says, yes. These two huge dudes walk me down to my car. On the way out, my partner, Kenny, says to me, hey, we manage a lot of these clients. You need to call them, tell them that you're going to raise money or do something for hedge funds, going to the equity markets or something. We need these clients to stay.

The clients that you manage... Is he not getting fired? He's still in the brokerage business till this day. Oh, my God. And I'll tell you why in a little bit, why he's still managing money. So I'm like, okay. And again, not thinking about victims or people who lost money, it's all about Justin. What can J.P. do to ensure he continues to get paid, which included calling clients lying to them, telling that I was moving in a different direction, but Kenny's going to be the guy to help them. And Kenny said he would incentivize me if these clients stay. So I'm like, all right, I have money coming in. That's January 11, 2005.

Did you ever get any money? No. Okay. That's a big negative. Yeah. And then things changed the 28th of April 2005 when I got three knocks on my front door and I open it. And it's like, oh, FBI had. FBI jacket, FBI sweatpants. Does everyone here need to know that the FBI is at my home? They had basically like the FBI Air Jordan sneakers. I'm proud that you're work for the FBI. Clearly you are. It was incredible. So they come in pairs.

So they walk in. I have my dogs freaking out. And they wheel it in. Like they wheel in the boxes of, it's like binders. I'm only 5'10. And like, they went up to here. I'm like, what do we have here? Like, what are you doing here?

Did you know they were coming? No, I'm like, what are you doing here? I don't work at UBS anymore. Like, what's happened? I've moved on. I got a real estate license. I'm selling real estate at Sotheby's in Calabat. I'm showing property to Kardashians.

Things are great. My old friends, I'm like, I moved on. I don't know what you're doing here. But what? And they're like, okay, listen, we want to talk to you about your role in the GLT fund and your conduct at UBS. And I'm like, what do we have here? These are like, oh, these are just some documents we received from UBS and Bear Stearns.

I'm like, well, it didn't take them long. It didn't take UBS and Bear Stearns long to give them absolutely everything. And I said, I think maybe I should hire a lawyer. And Paul Bertrand, he's now a good friend, said, it could be a good idea. So I said, okay, Paul, I'm going to call a lawyer. I was so insane. I didn't even hire a criminal defense attorney. I call a civil lawyer, a friend of mine knew.

And a month later, we meet with the FBI. And I can tell you, my preparations for that meeting on a scale of one to 10 were less than zero. Lied to my lawyer, didn't do anything wrong. It's UBS. No introspection. I could have done things differently. This was my role.

I blame, I excuse, I deny. So when I meet with the government, I am not prepared to respond appropriately. And what I said in that meeting, I later learned sealed my fate that led to my indictment in prison term. I was going to say, I mean, yeah, yeah. It was better to be a witness than a defendant. In that meeting, you know, I think instead of deny, you'd be like, you know, I was here. So-and-so did this. I heard him say this.

I should have said something at that point. I should have said, like, coming clean in that meeting. Really, the civil lawyer was a mistake. A criminal lawyer probably would have worked something out. But a civil lawyer, I doubt he had enough understanding. He should have had enough understanding that the FBI is not showing up for a civil case. He didn't have enough understanding in part because he's civil and I lied to him. What I learned is that, you know, the FBI can lie.

No. But at 28, I didn't know that. So I figure, like, we had a lot of involvement in that Varsity Blues case. those parents went to prison. And the reason they got people to entrap themselves is by saying Rick Singer would say my IRS, my nonprofit is under IRS audit. I need to talk to you about the way you got money to my nonprofit. It wasn't under audit. That was the ruse the FBI created to get these parents to get themselves into trouble. So they can lie. So when the meeting opened, they actually told my lawyer that I was just a witness. I'm like, well, that sounds better than a target.

That I knew. So about seven minutes into the meeting, Paul Bertrand looks directly at me and says, Justin, do you ever remember reading a press release that said your client, Keith, average 27% a year in his hedge fund? And I'm like, no, I don't. I don't remember that. So he said, let me ask you again. My lawyer is starting to get nervous, right? He said, let me ask you again, do you recall a press release stating that your client's hedge fund

average 27% a year? And I'm thinking to myself, this is the best the FBI has to offer. How many times do I have to tell this guy that I don't recall the press release? Had you read the press release? I said, no, I don't remember the press release. So he went like this. And he reaches over, shuffling. He's like now he's mocking me.

He's making fun of me. He's going to get me. So he finally pulls out the document. He asked me to read it. He said, what do I do? He said, read it. I said, well, I've read it. You know, I want you to read out loud.

It's all coming back to get me the arrogance, the entitlement, thinking that I'm different from others, that wrong. it's reaching its point. I deserved all of it. I earned it. And I said to my, in this letter that I read, I'm arguing with my client Keith.

And my client said to me, I've never lied to you. And in the document it says, isn't that the pot calling the kettle black? I enjoyed your press release talking about the 27% guaranteed return fund. So the FBI agent says, do you ever recall reading a press release

talking about 27%? And I said, he said, read it again just to make sure. because I heard you say you didn't remit. Let's just read it one more time to make sure. And I said, you actually want me to read it again? He said, I'd love for you to read again. That'd be great. I'm like, okay.

I insured your press release talking about the guaranteed return fund and I put it down. My lawyer abruptly ends the meeting. And, you know, afterward, I'm like so, I'm nuts. You never think I went to a good college and I got decent grades and I had some brain because I said to my lawyer, I'm like, so did it go good? Like, what is your takeaway?

this meeting and he said you weren't under oath so it's not perjury but you just obstructed a federal investigation yeah and you just lied to an FBI agent when I was interviewed when I was interviewed upon my release when I spoke at Quantigo Virginia the FBI Academy upon my release from prison Paul who arrested me who later invited me to speak introduced me to the agents an enrichment night by saying had Justin told us the truth and we interviewed him because we essentially knew he was a broker who turned the other way for money we would not have recommended that David Willingham, the United States Attorney, indict him. So that's the power of preparing properly, speaking openly with your lawyer. If you don't think you should share it with

your lawyer, you probably should. But lawyers are in a position of power. They're educated. They're intimidating. They command a lot of money. I didn't want them to see me as sympathy for a crook. I wanted them to see me, you know, this USC athlete and someone contributed to my community. I was a big brother. You've just focused on the good you do. That's how you sleep. And I wasn't prepared for that meeting. And it's staggering how many people are not prepared for a proffer or a meeting with the government or a probation interview. And the consequences were severe and eventually led to with a crazy thing about white color crime is nothing happened for a year. Yeah, it's super slow. It's terrible. Like the waiting, the anxiety is just Tom Petty saying waiting is the hardest part. You ain't

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with the code Cox at the checkout to save a whopping 50% off site-wide. It's terrible. And you're still, you're showing, you're thinking things are great. You're showing houses to the Kardashians. You're showing you've got big clients. You're closing deals, commissions.

But after a year, you've probably put that completely out. Like, oh, that must be over. I was showing property to, I was, so it was about nine, 10 months later, February of 2006, my lawyer calls me, and I'm actually showing property to Courtney. Now, this is before the Kardashians. This is before she has any money. This is before she's looking at homes that are like 500,000 Woodland Hills on Burbank Boulevard. No money. They hadn't even open up their dash door yet in Calabasas. Nothing. Right? And I'd known them for a while and played in a baseball league with their. So I'd known them for a while and just she was nobody. Nice, but not

famous. So I'm driving, showing property. I miss like 10 calls from my lawyer. And I finally pick up. And he's like, we need to speak. And I'm like, man, like, where are you been? He must need money. It's been 10 months. And he said, I need to tell you some bad news. I'm like, well, what? He said, your former client, Keith, for the last year, has been cooperating with the Department of Justice. And while you were lying to the FBI and playing golf and showing property and think that this is totally behind you, he's been cooperating with the government, and he has led them to you,

and they're going to indict you unless you agree to plead guilty to one kind of conspiracy to commit securities fraud. And I'm like, I haven't heard from you in 10 months. Like, what are you doing? I'm working right now. I've totally moved on. I don't understand what's happening.

Is this some sort of joke? Yeah, I don't know what's happening. You're like, I'm good. And then he said, come to my office tomorrow and bring a check. And here's the surreal nature, part of the surreal nature of white color crime. It's like, you hear this news.

You get off the phone and it's like, am I supposed to get back in the car and now call this broker? Hey, is there a lockbox on the property? I need to get in and show some property right now. You just, am I supposed to get back to work and function as a human being and do my job and act like nothing has happened, which is what you're supposed to do apparently? And I went in the next day and my lawyer said,

I spoke with David Willingham, the U.S. attorney. As I said, right now you're looking at five years in prison. And I'm like, well, what is Keith looking at? 75? What is it? Matthew Cox, 26-year sentence? He's, what, and that's when I learned how twisted this criminal justice system is. Even though they said he was more culpable, he ran this fraud years before he ever met you

because he was cooperating with the government. And I don't begrudge him now. He was married with four kids. He's doing whatever he can to get the best sentence. I don't buy into this prison snitches gets. We're going to camps. It was fine. He did what was best for him because he was, even though he was more culpable because he was

cooperate. He's looking at two years and I'm looking at five. And it didn't help. I had this enhancement of lying to the government. So it goes from, I think that I've moved on to they want five years in prison. So how did he lead them to you by meetings or had he been meeting with you? Like is he making phone calls to me and my partner and, you know, I'm a, can be a talker. So it was cathartic when he would call and be like, dude, I'm just so sorry I got you swept into this. I feel terrible that this has happened. And it was just kind of cathartic to talk with someone about it right and in so doing you talk about conduct that was wrong so he's calling me he's calling my partner he's giving the government everything they need he's he's cooperating he's helping and

oftentimes they find that the leader first so by the time they get down to like the lower dude on the totem pole there's nothing to give them because they already have they already have everything and it didn't help that I lie to the government so I had nothing to give them I never had that opportunity to cooperate I had forfeited that opportunity by lying right so he was in their good graces And my lawyer said, you can go to trial. I won't be the one to take you because you'll lose. You can consider a plea agreement. And as of right now, you'll get five years in prison.

And it's so surreal that you think you've moved on from this. And then 10 months later, you get that phone call. And then shortly after that, there was a press release stating that he had pled guilty, my client, to one count of conspiracy to commit fraud. It listed an unnamed co-conspirator, which was me. And then my attorney opened up negotiations with the government on, on a plea agreement and I was um it wasn't a great time in in my life it was a it was a difficult time much harder than any day that I endured in federal prison the waiting and wondering and then

I developed this envy envy is a terrible thing because it implies you don't want somebody else to have it I was envious of friends who were like building businesses the right way getting married did you ever feel envy and anything like that like I'm in prison I got a 26 year sentence my friend worked hard he's making money he's traveling he's got kids i had that envy it's a terrible thing did you ever feel any of that um i feel like most of the people i knew so you you know not because they were building businesses that were successful legitimately i just knew other people that were doing similar things to me that had been doing like this person is worth you know 10 15 million dollars has a ton of real estate

and is a complete scumbag and has done and is lying to people all the time and they've like they're they're doing similar things that I did and yet it's never caught up with him so I've so in that way I was envious not because he'd done the right thing he was yes but it was that he'd gotten away with it forever and so I assumed I would yes and you know he may not have gone to the extreme but he was running a very low level scam kind of thing getting people to buy properties from him and giving them money back under the table and, you know, little things that it had been going perfect and he'd, matter of fact, listen, this thing, this person I'm thinking of, which I still talk to him to this day, he actually was called in to talk with the FBI

multiple times and went in and talk to him. This is what's going on. And what he would explain to them was a fraud. Yeah, yeah. So the person this, you know, they put this much money down and they're like yeah but then they cut a check back to your construction company and he's like right and then after the closing i was supposed to do the work and i ended up not doing it so i gave him the money back and you're sitting there going and he's like that happens all the time what's the problem he's like the bank knew i was going to do the work and they're like no no the bank thought the work had been done yeah that's why they cut you the check at closing he's like oh well i thought i didn't know that how am i supposed to know that yeah you see him saying it's like yeah and it is you're

subtly, you know what I'm talking about, they thought, because the appraisal said the property's in perfect condition, they thought all this work had been done, so they cut a check to the construction company. So that's really you're getting your down payment back, plus some money. It's a cashback scam. For sure. But because it was all right on the HUD statement, and yes, was there a misunderstanding? Maybe, but that's nothing to do with me.

And they were like, well, you didn't disclose this. Or he's like, no, no, I did, I did disclose this. Well, well, but the bank didn't know that. I'm the real estate agent. I have no, I didn't get him the money. I have no reason to give him the bank. You see what's very subtle. And it had been working for a decade, over a decade or two.

So I definitely had envy for people that I was like, fuck, dude, so fucking smooth. I can't compete. It's a terrible way to live because what happens is you don't appreciate all that remains. I was still at my youth to support of family, a brain. I could probably have found a way to recalibrate a lot of regret. I could have just left UBS and started over. You begin to live in this regret of all the things I could have done. And I begin to obsess over all that I've lost.

And then I needed a break. And I actually got my first big break. What was the first big break? I needed a break, man. I needed a damn break, okay? About six months after I pled guilty to one kind of conspiracy to commit fraud, my lawyer calls me. I had a new lawyer because I couldn't pay the old lawyer anymore.

So I go to, I went to hire a law firm I could not afford. So many defendants make that mistake of hiring a law firm they can't afford because they're enamored by the fact. And we work with great lawyers. We work with more than 1,000 lawyers. But oftentimes, oh, he's a former prosecutor. It's very enamoring to a defendant. Oh, he's a former prosecutor is now a defense attorney.

You're not always a great thing. It can be. So I hired a Jones day. I couldn't afford them anymore. So I would go to the smaller firms. So my lawyer, Bob Corbyn and Joel Athee call me together. And I'm like, great, they're calling me together. That means two bills at once.

Get to the point. And they said, we're calling to tell you that Keith, my client, has been indicted on a new charges. I'm like, great. Does this whole thing go away? Can I just get back to the real estate thing now? They said he's been a diet and I knew for like a straw man scheme. You're selling property.

He was supposed to turn over the government. He found a straw buyer so we can keep some of the cash. I'm like, what does this mean? They're like, well, most of what he said against you, they're not going to use. He's no longer in good grace with the government. The government is going to give you a second chance at veracity, not with the Department of Justice, but with the Securities Exchange Commission. So within two days, I was meeting with Bob Nixon and Cindy Tissarro at the SEC and

Midwilcher. And they wanted to know more about the intricacies of UBS, how a firm of this size allowed a small-time hedge fund manager to run this ruse or fraud for so long, despite compliance knowing. My lawyer said, this is how you can go from five years to four years to three years, maybe avoid prison altogether, but you cannot lie because you already did that once. So for a year, my sentencing was delayed, a year at great expense with lawyers, I spent time with the Securities Exchange Commission, helping them understand. how UBS, how this ruse happened, how it took place. And as a result of that one year, just before I was sentenced, the Securities and Exchange Commission told the Department of Justice, we don't think UBS is a victim here.

They are not. And the eight and a half million that UBS paid to victims, UBS, the SEC said, they're not a victim here. They can't come back after Perperning for this money, in our opinion. And UBS never did. Well, that, of course, is going to impact my sentencing if I owe eight and a half million versus zero. So it helped that all the victims, investors turned victims got their money back. It doesn't replace the shame and pain and loss of humanity you go through from getting stolen. And I'm very excusing that, but that money helps. So UBS pays everyone back. My restitution was about $500,000 that ironically went to the IRS. Some way, somehow they deduced how much of commissions I had made and they took a portion of it. So my restitution was $535,000. But because of that time with the SEC, it really helped me at sentencing. They really went to bat for me.

even to the point where they argued I shouldn't even go to prison. And Judge Wilson saw it differently. At my sentencing hearing in February of 08, he said pretty directly, I don't know if the term white privilege was thrown around in 2008 to the degree that it is now, but he basically said you had every privilege and opportunity that most people in this courtroom do not have, every reason to know right from wrong. Then he said, I am tired of salesman turning the other way for money. Most don't get caught.

You did. I'm going to make an example out of you. me to 18 months in federal prison. And this is 2008. Every headline is banks. Yes. And just the mortgage out of time. Fraud, fraud, fraud, and people getting away with it.

And, ooh, they were. Yes. You had to go to jail. And some of the victims in the front row, like, if they had champagne, they'd have popped it. They were so happy. I got sentenced to prison. And then I had two months.

And that's when really the reality sets in. Because even two hours before I was sentenced to 18 months, my co-defendant got six years. They took him into custody at MDC once he, once they got re-arrested. So he got 60 months, the max under the plea. And I'm like, okay, I'm going to prison. He got 60 months. I'm going to prison. He got five years. He got five years, the max. The judge said, if you didn't have a plea that kept you at 60 months, I'd give you 10 years. He had signed that plea before, because of the cooperation credit. And then the new charges, I think there was some like alleged prosecutorial misconduct or there was a breakdown or something where those charges were

dismissed. Got lucky. But the judge said, this was a dastardly crime. If your cap wasn't 60 months, I'd give you 10 years. So he really got a break at the 60 months. And I know he did Ardap at Lompoc and he got home pretty quick. So I knew I was going to get sentenced to prison because he just got 60 months. And I knew the government's position. It didn't help that I lied to them, along with all of my other terrible conduct. So I got to speak in front of the judge. I did. I told the truth. I said, I was raised to know right for wrong. There should be accountability for my actions. My goal is to demonstrate why I'm a candidate for a second chance and to build a new record over time.

And I encourage people to hold me accountable. But they were victims here. And if I were them, I'd want justice to. Did you hold it together? There was, I'll tell you what's interesting about getting sentenced to prison. I did not hold it together. Okay. I'll tell you what's interesting about getting sentenced to prison.

The sentencing was easier than the guilty plea because the guilty plea is still the unknown. When I got sentenced, at least I had clarity. Right. A finality of beginning and an end date. But I didn't know anything about good time or halfway house time. I just presumed I was going to serve 18. full months in prison. But it felt good to have clarity.

I was grateful Judge Wilson gave me 60 days to self-surrender. And my defendant, co-defendant asked for Lompoke, and my lawyer said, he cooperated against you, they're not going to send you to the same prison.

So my lawyers asked for Taff Federal Prison Camp. It changed my entire life. White-collar advice, our business, the prison professor's nonprofit organization that impacts a million people in prisons and jails. A lot of that would not have happened

had I not gone to Taff Federal Prison Camp, and met my now partner Michael Santos, who was in for 22 years when I met him. So my lawyers asked for Taft. I get Taft, and I surrendered to prison April 28, 2005, three years exactly to the day the FBI showed up at my home with those, you know, binders wearing all the FBI stuff. I was so excited to get to prison to finally get credit for time served because I felt like I'd been in prison that entire time. And I interviewed Michael.

Yes. Yeah. We could put his video at the end of this, you know? Well, what's interesting about Michael was he was such a prolific author already. He had, he had already, he did eight years in the penitentiary. He wrote inside, Life Behind Bars in America. So he was like the Anthony Robbins of prison. Everybody knew him.

And my mom was sending me his blogs before I went to prison. I was so arrogant. I was so entitled. I'm like, ma, I'm not reading some blogs from a dude that's been in jail for 20 years. I'm fucking good. I'm good. It's going to be great. It's going to be fine.

And then I get there. And within like 15 seconds of surrendering to prison, I don't know any better. I reach out, I say to the guard, I'm like, hi, I'm Justin Perpurnia. Your self-servid. And like, my hands out. And I'm like, my hands are clean. And he's like, we don't shake hands with inmates. I'm like, God, I am just not prepared for this experience.

I don't know what to do next. I am not ready to be in prison. And then the first day was a whirlwind, man. I was. I got to tell you something. I got one better than that. I have one better than that. Not for me.

Allison, my co-defendant, Allison is, grew up in Illinois. Midwestern white girl Completely unprepared for So unprepared That when she was told she was going to prison She called the female prison camp here Because she knew they were going to recommend her there So she just assumed she'd go

Called down there Got someone on the phone And asked if she could If she could arrange A tour Of the female prison Because she was going to be Turning herself in to go

for 30 months and she wanted to know where she was going to go and kind of get a tour of the place just so that she could kind of get her head right and know what to prepare for and the woman on the phone started laughing yes she was no sweetie she's we don't do tours and then and she was like no she's like can i come by i mean can i like a walk there she's like the walk through hangs out the phone and then when she shows up like 60 days later and she shows up she walks in the guards that were there they were like you must be alison and they were she was like yeah she's like how do you know my name they said oh we've had quite the yeah we've been waiting for you we got quite a kick out of the tour yeah yes i mean just completely unprepared for what she was

about to it's a it's an experience that you can read about it to the extent that you can and prepare i didn't do either of those too i just showed up in this this foreign world and man was it foreign i'll tell you what hit me a few minutes into my surrender why are so many dudes smiling and like happy. I saw a video you did where someone had once said to you like you're going to be glad you're in prison.

You share that story of playing risk in like five years and like you're like, these are great dudes. This is kind of where I'm supposed to be. Like don't believe him. He's a drug dealer. He's a con man.

Like laughing. And I'm like, what are these dudes smiling out? They appear to be having the time of their life. So I stand out, of course, because I have the jumpsuit on and the Jeff Spacoli vans from Fast Hinesurichmont.

Everyone knows you're the new prisoner. Yeah, yeah. And they direct you. And it's like self-directed. The guards like just, go there and you're going to get like a mattress and stuff. And I'm like, where? He's like right there. I'm like there. He's like right there. And they, some prisoner hands it to you. And then the guard's like, well, you're going to go to D dorm. I'm like, what is I? Like, what is D dorm? He's

like, it's right there. I'm so off my game. I'm not ready. I'm not in a good spot. And he's like, that's D dorm upstairs. I'm like, I'm supposed to go there. He's like, go there with your mattress and pillow and sheets. I'm like, got it. And you've never been talked to like a dog before. That is correct, okay, and I walk in and a couple of thoughts come to mind, I got to see what the bathrooms look like, okay? I got to see the bathroom showers and toilets because I am a kind of a germ of, you know, I'm clean. Oh, good God, what is this going to look like?

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I'm going to have to write you a ticket to my new movie, The Naked Gun. Liam Neeson. Buy your tickets now. I get a free chili dog. Chili Dog, not included. The Naked God. Tickets on sale now. August 1st.

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a swivel stool and another one sitting on his bunk and I'm like, hey, I'm Justin. I'm here to, I'm here in prison. And one was engaged. The other one wasn't. And then shortly after I walk into the cubicle, like all the prisoners flurry out of the dorm to go down to the chow hall. And I'm like, oh my God, I'm about to have lunch in prison for the first time. I'm still in my prison uniform because, of course, you don't shop in the commissary yet. So the first few hours were, were dizzying, surreal. I was never scared. I didn't think like anyone was going to extort or exploit me, but the reality of the situation, it's kind of like when I became a father. It hit me like, while I'm holding my daughter. It kind of hit me a little later. It really hit me the severity of

my conduct, all the bad that I had done. It hit me, I think, when I reached out to shake hands with the guard. And I saw my mom and brother, they're crying, and they go in one direction. I go in another. And that's when it hit me like, I'm going to try to use this time somehow, some way to recalibrate and rebuild my life. But the truth is, I had not. no idea how I had no idea what to do and that's why I had to get some help so what what happened is that when did you meet uh do you meet Michael in prison or change change change my entire life so my second day in prison I'm in the big TV how many people are sorry let me ask him 500 people 500 people okay no fences or just a small fence no fences barbed war no fences are barbed war it's

adjacent to an fcii which how is primarily illegal illegal immigrants 2500 at the time so you guys maintain the grounds? Correct. That's correct. So Michael had been in for 22 years already when I met him. Eight years in the penitentiary and he worked his way down to the camp where he served his last 10 years. So I'm in the same dorm as him, D dorm. So I'm in a large TV room my second day in prison, totally dear in headlights. I'm watching the stockmark and he comes up to me and he says, how you doing young man? I said, you're not great, man, jail. And he said, how long are you here for? I said, 18 months. And he said, I'll do every day the sentence with you because he's still had five years left to serve. through time, Michael could see that I was very quiet. I'm very introverted. I am in real life. Very quiet. I like to

spend time alone. You can really find a lot of isolation in prison behind the racquetball court and the library. You can find a lot of time alone. At least I could in this camp, even though there are 500 dudes there. And I immediately began to spend my whole prison term exercising. I went in 40 pounds heavier and you're 100 yards from this track. You're like you might as well make the most of it. So I become a long distance runner. But all I did was exercise. And Michael and I, would form a friendship. We would walk down to the chow hall together. I was fascinated by his career and his life. Some months, he was earning six months, six figures a month in prison, writing books for guys that he met in prison. He had built this entire life. He's mentoring prisoners teaching classes. I'm like, wow, if there is a guy to learn from, this could be the guy. But it took me many months to embrace what he was trying to teach me because one day I'm in his cubicle sounding like a total fool. I say something like, oh, I ran 10 miles today. And I'm doing pull-ups and I'm stronger and he's like hey dude how much are people going to pay you to do

those pull-ups right and I'm like oh I don't think anyone's going to pay me and he's like on a scale of one to 10 with one being the worst how hard are you really preparing to go home I'm like well a one it's like okay so you're going to go home and you should own the fact that you're going to ask a friend for a job or your brother who's successfully owns a hardware store several you know owns these stores you're going to go hammer nails for him and you're going to expect a big big wage because it's your brother you should own and embrace that or perhaps you can recognize that or perhaps you can recognize that you were like a lot of the guys inside of this prison. Didn't have bad intention from they broke the law.

Never imagine in a million years they'd become immersed in the government investigation. Didn't prepare well for sentencing. Hired the wrong lawyer. Didn't know how to work with a lawyer. Didn't know what a PSR was. Didn't know how to prepare for prison. None of them are the CEO of their own life. They don't know how to reverse engineer and create.

And you are no different. You're wasting this experience. You're going to go home. This will define the rest of your life in a bad way. And he was right. So I'm like, I don't know what to do. Like, what do I do? I don't know what to do.

I don't know what to do. And he began to ask questions, what is success for you? I don't want to uncover my parents' retirement. Okay. What is success for you? I want to pay back the $535,000 I own. I made that commitment to the court. I want to pay back out.

I have no idea. I need help. So Michael helped me. We began to create. We began to write alongside him, I began to write this blog. And on days where I couldn't write it, I said, you got to write it for me. I can't do it. It's too much accountability.

It's too big a commitment. I can't write every single day. I'm running out of content. I don't know what to do. Please help me. So I learned, I would argue, from a true master, someone who had been inside for 22 years. And every day, until my sentence ended,

a few months in until it ended the 20th of May 2009, I sat alongside Michael in that quiet room, 10, 12 hours a day, to the point where some days he'd say, get out, I have to do my own stuff. We'd write a blog. I would learn from him. I would, by documenting this,

journey on this daily blog within a month of writing this daily blog. And these blogs for my prison terms still exist, I began getting like 100 letters a month at mail call. Jeez. I never got 100 a month. But here's something interesting about the letters. Despite Michael having knowledge that is unmatched, in my opinion, just through so much time in prison, a lot of, and he wrote prolifically more than anyone, a lot of the guys were writing me, even though my knowledge, if I'm at a one, he's at a thousand. But the, they were writing to me because there was a connection, maybe the USC, the stockbroker, shorter sentence. And that's when Michael and I, for full transparency, said, there's a real

opportunity here. Michael has the depth and breadth of knowledge through 26 years in prison of all security levels. I had the one year in a camp, but a lot of these defendants reaching out to me could relate to me. And that's who I was getting letters from, a husband, a wife, a daughter, a prisoner like, hey, man, that blog you wrote about holding my lawyer accountable, totally changed thing for me. That blog you wrote about getting the sentencing memorandum well before. for it's due to get vested, totally changed everything for me. I had no idea the probation interview is even like a big deal. My lawyer said it's a five-minute interview. What's the big deal? So I'm like providing value to the world and getting these feeds my ego. It was off

putting to some prisoners because my name's getting called at mail call. Even there's, there weren't iPhones then in prison. But some family members were sending this blog into their loved ones like, hey, why aren't you doing what this guy is doing? He's productive. You're not. That led to a few issues. Plus, I'm there for one year. Some guys think this guy's having the time of his life here. I'm learning from Michael and I'm productive. But I wasn't there long enough to ever feel as if I would ever get into any trouble. And I never wrote bad about any of the prisoners. So based on the success of the blog, Thanksgiving 2008, Michael and I are walking around the track.

You know, on holidays in prison, the chow hall tends to be closed. They give you the bag lunch when you go in for breakfast. I like the bag lunch. Yeah, I was fine. And so we're walking around and I said, I said, I think I'd like to build a career around this experience. and do so in a way where I don't profess to know things that I don't. We discussed this overlaunch on Saturday. I'm not an expert because I served one year in a minimum security camp.

I'm no fixer, so to speak. I want to be authentic about my experience and how I can help. And I was transparent. I said, I want to leverage off the 26 years that you're going to serve. And use that we decided, like, as a tool to teach from. And I said, I'd like to hire you to write a book. And he said, it's a big deal. It's a big commitment.

And he said, can you afford it? I said, no, but I can't afford not to do it. Because there's a price to pay for the book. There's a cost that comes if I don't prepare properly. So he said, okay, let's write a book. So he would interview me hours every single day. He would write a book, which later became lessons from prison. And upon my release, May 20, 2009, Michael had four years left to serve.

We said we're going to do two things. One, I'm going to begin to develop what is now white collar advice, which 15 years later, here we are. And Michael is going to continue to lead the advocacy efforts of prison reform. So while he was writing lessons from prison, he was simultaneously writing earning freedom, which chronicles his time through prison. And it's really the basis of the First Step Act that passed 10 years later. If you read the First Step Act, about incentivizing Eklings, Michael Santos wrote that entire thing in his book,

Earning Freedom in 2008. So I said, I'm going to do White Collar, and you're going to come home, do prison reform, policy, and teaching. And the revenues that White Collar Advice brings in are going to support the nonprofit. And I was the first funder of the nonprofit. So well before people like CZ from Binance, sponsor the nonprofit. nonprofit, Bill McGlashin, Massimo, Gene Uli, Jerry Lundrigan, and others. It was white-collar advice bringing in money and sending revenues that way.

And it all started meeting Michael in that prison dorm, him asking me on a scale of one to 10, how prepared you to go home? And I said, one. And him asking me, do you know what to do? In my exact words where I have no idea what to do, no idea at all. And I began to ask for help. And, you know, I would say even though we're partners to this day, he's still my mentor. Yeah, I was going to say that it's funny because you have these guys who have done 15 years, 10 years, 5 years, 25 years, and we would, I ended up going into ARDAP, and I told you that, I did it twice, and one of the things they have you do is prepare, like what, prepare everything from a budget to what your plan is, and when you hear these guys plan,

They've never made a plan. You've been here 15 years. You have no idea what you're going to do when you get out. And then when they have to sit down and or they say they do have an idea, you realize right away how absolutely ridiculous their ideas are. It's like you're not going to be, you're not going to get out and rap, sing your rap songs on TikTok and get a deal. Like you need, let's be reasonable.

Not that you can't do that. You could do that on the side, you know, but don't think that don't base your entire, your entire reentry plan on becoming, um, on opening up a production studio and getting a bunch of rappers and becoming huge. Like, let's be reasonable. And then, you know, where are you going to stay? Where are you going to, how are you? And there immediately, I'm going to get a, a condo. I'm going to get, what are you talking about? You don't even have good credit.

You have no credit. You have no. You have to sit down and say, look, you have to understand. you may be working at McDonald's. Then you have to talk them into understanding that for most of them, that there's nothing wrong with, I mean, it's funny, you'll have a drug dealer who's been nothing but a drug dealer, his whole life, who's been locked up for 15 years, and he gets, he's literally his plan is he's going to get out and get a job making about $100,000.

And you're like, what? Based on what? You know, it's like, no, you're going to get a job at McDonald's. And then they, they don't want to even accept that. You have to convince them. You have to get them to lower their expectations to an entry point that's okay. It's okay to work at McDonald's. And what's interesting for someone like me, you served a short sentence, you form friendships

in prison, but sometimes those can be dangerous because you form a friendship and you think that gives you permission to share some unsolicited advice. So being quiet, I think makes me a good listener when I want to listen. And I would hear guys, some of whom I thought were friends, share things about what they wanted to do. And Michael had a different gravitas because he turned so long. prison. He could ask questions. People would come to his class to teach. He was serious. He did 22 years. For me, I'm in there like six months. And one day I'm walking the chalk with a guy

named Renee. Good, good dude. We did our ab class together with my friend Andrew Alcheck, who eventually died in prison. And he said something like you just said. Like, I'm going to, I'm trading paper stocks here. I get up at 3 a.m. and I got the charts. And I'm up 200% over to last year. And I'm going to go home and I'm going to raise money. And I offered some advice. Like, well, does that seem realistic? You have no experience, no college degree, no experience ever trading money. I'm trying to be rational. I'm trying to help him. It really upset him. Like, I didn't ask for you an opinion. Right. Did I, did I, and that's like the first time I actually kind of felt quasi-threatened a little bit in prison. I'd heard some crazy

things. You know, as a Jew, guys questioning the existence of the Holocaust, my bunky Steve. He joked. I don't want to say joke, but he, you know, he was kind of one of those guys. I've come around and I've learned a lot more. But I could hear things like that and turn the other way. I never felt threatened because of it. When I heard someone say, I didn't ask your opinion.

This is what I'm going to do. And a part of me was like, who am I to tell him that he can't do? I'm going to keep my mouse shut, which is kind of what you have to do in prison a lot of the time. If you hear things that are insane or crazy, you keep your mouse shut.

If you see wrongdoing, like dudes taking utensils out of the chow hall, some guard is going to question, I didn't see nothing. I don't see nothing at all. I'm good. It's kind of like what led me to prison is the same thing I said early

you have to do in prison. So there can be some pitfalls, even in a minimum security camp, but the biggest pitfall of all, as you know, is the inevitable boredom, waiting for mail calls, like watching paint dry for one minute to turn to the next. It will drive some dudes insane. And I didn't want that boredom for my time. Yeah, I was going to say the differences is that like this wasn't unsolicited. It was we were in the setting of ARDAP. Yes, where you're supposed to do that. Like pulling people up and all that stuff. Yeah, yeah. Well, and where these guys are telling what they're going to do and you're there's 25 guys there and you know you've got a half the guys are nod in their head and then you've got someone like me going and you've got the

instructor there who's kind of like is that reasonable and these guys are like shaking their head and I'm like bro it's not like I hope to God it happened like I always preface it with like dear God I want to be wrong for you yeah I want you to get that job but you have to understand you have you are going to be in a better frame of mind if you're playing says I'm going to start here, you know, my whole plan was I'm going to work at McDonald's. I've said this over and over again. When I went to halfway house, I am disappointed that I didn't get to work at McDonald's because I wanted to be able to look back five years later when some guy was complaining about his life or this and that. And I wanted to be able to say, motherfucker, I was, I was in a halfway house

working at McDonald's. So I don't want to, you know, five years ago. So, but instead what happened was I made a phone call to a buddy and I didn't even think I was just calling just to reach out to people right you try and build a support group and he was like oh my god I can't believe you're out where are you and he said is there anything I can do and I said well I need a job and he's like bro I can hire you at the gym but I can only pay you minimum wage and I thought perfect that's pretty much what I was going to get at McDonald's he's like you understand you're sweeping you're mopping you're cleaning toilets. Yeah.

I love it. Yeah. I was doing that in the, I was doing that in prison and they weren't paying me anything. You know what I'm saying? So it was, it was okay. And my whole plan was, you're going to, like when I got out of the halfway house, it was, I had saved enough money. I had enough money.

I could, I could have gotten an apartment, a one bedroom apartment or something. But I didn't because I had a plan. And my plan was, you're going to move into a rooming house. or get a room you're going to find a way to live as cheaply as possible and that's that's same thing i say this not to to feed your ego but the reason you're successful in part is because you were willing to have that humility to do that work in the halfway house there's a lot of guys when i went to the halfway house i picked up phones at that same suburbies office where just a year earlier i was selling high in real estate i picked up phones for three months as you know there's a lot of guys

who get to the halfway house they are working to mcdonalds or kfc there's scrubbing toilets and showers picking up trash off the side of the road and know what the first thing they say, of course, is, I want to go back. I always wanted to avoid prison. Now I want to go back and finish my sentence in the minimum security camp and the recognition that maybe that time had been wasted. They weren't developing a support network, developing new skills, preparing for reentry. It catches up to them.

And many of them, that time turns out to be a waste. Like somehow we encourage people in my call our advice community, somehow let this experience become an asset in your life. Don't run from it. Don't pretend that it didn't happen. You have the DOJ release. You can build authentically on top. We can't pretend that it didn't happen.

And at the end of the day, most people are concerned with their own self-interest. And in so many instances, I choose to mitigate and white-collar advice, raise money and contribute to the nonprofit. But I've had so many other opportunities that have nothing to do with the prison space because people will say, you could be a value because of what you've learned. And you've documented. And that's the biggest thing that changed my life or people who go through our community. See, every day you're building an asset through these podcasts. You're demonstrating how you could.

be a value to people. You can't tell a judge, you're sorry. Michael encourage me, and we encourage everyone, he says, create an asset that doesn't exist. A book is an asset. A blog is an asset. A reentry plan is an asset. A letter to a judge is an asset, to a case manager. A letter I wrote to my judge from prison. Create something. You can share it with someone and say, read it. And doing that changed my life. The problem with that is it actually requires work, because it's easy to say, I'm going to make money and get a house and apartment and buy that nice watch your car. It's another thing to say, like, I'm going to do it every, every single day. Or a lot of good people in prison say, I'm going to get around to it when I have six months left to go home. And by then,

it's never going to happen. They never started. They have kicked in. So it requires humility and preparing, in my case, for the hardest part man, which was like coming home without my securities license, without my real estate license, owing $500,000 in restitution with terrible DOJ releases. And in a terrible economy, in 2009, the Great Recession was going on. But I had to build a record that would compel my probation officer, Isaiah Murrow. Like if he wasn't a probation officer, I'd be friends with this guy. The only government official. Well, besides Paul Bertrand, the FBI agent, we're good buddies.

Isaiah was a good dude. And when I met him in the halfway house in Hollywood, he said, I've reviewed your work because Michael taught me to share my progress with him from prison. And he said, I didn't read everything. And I've read a lot of it. And I know what you plan to do. And I said, yes, I want to help justice impacted people. and I want to work with Michael on policy and prison reform

because honestly I think we send too many people to prison I think work release program should return I think parole should come back the sentences are too long many of these guys who created victims should be working and paying back the money to their victims he said I don't know about all that but I'm going to give you a chance to work with people going to prison

it was only because of the record that I had built that compelled him to say I'm going to give you a little leash here and my first day upon my release from prison I wasn't thinking about eating. I wasn't thinking about sex. All I was thinking was, how the hell am I going to pay this restitution? So Michael and I devised our plan from prison where I would cold walk into law offices in downtown Los Angeles

with lessons from prison. So I'm wearing my suit that I was sentenced to prison. It's like, you know, four sizes too big. I couldn't even have it tailored because I'd lost so much weight in prison. The tailor said, just throw it out and buy new one. I'm like, I can't afford it. I can't. So I take my book and I start cold walking into law office.

with my first pass from the halfway house and lawyers are throwing me out you're not welcome here don't you are you dumb don't you see it says no solicitation right and that first day only one lawyer shook my hand his name is mark worksman he's a great lawyer in los angeles and i i said this isn't you have not invited me i just got out of federal prison i worked on this this book this asset that i think would be a real help to people who get into trouble this book would have really helped me when i was a defendant and he said just and sit down tell me about your story and i'm like I was just expecting rejection. Get the hell out of here.

He shook my hand. He took the book. The next day he said, send me five copies. And when I have clients in need, I'm going to give them the book. And now 15 years later, with that one cold walk in relationship with Mark Worksman, I've done more than a million dollars in business with that one law firm. It all started by building in prison, my probation officer approving my job, and just cold walking into a law office and give me an opportunity.

And I felt like I had dignity and trying. It was embarrassing a little bit to get thrown out. One time security guard walked me out, but I felt like I was trying. Well, I mean, I think the problem is one, most people don't have that plan. They don't put in that work. And more than anything, most people are unwilling to, at least you knew every time you probably knew. I'm assuming you knew when you walked in unsolicited to try and meet that lawyer and talk to him, you knew you were going to, there was a good pause. You were willing to be rejected.

I knew as a baseball player, the cliche in baseball, you hit 300. you're in the Hall of Fame. So baseball set me up for terrible rejection. But I also knew what was my highest value. I was not going to encumber my parents' retirement. I told Judge Wilson I would pay my restitution. And Isaiah Murrow, my probation officer, I hope he watches this, said, I'm going to give you a leash here. I'm going to give you an opportunity to work with convicted felons. Because in prison, I used to run into Michael's cubicle. I'd be like, man, I'm really down. Like, you're writing this book lessons from prison. We're doing the blog. I want to work with people going to prison. And everyone's saying, including my case manager, you're never going to be

able to, you're a felon, you're going to be on probation. They're not going to allow you to work with other felons. Michael would say, let's just think deliberately. Let's reverse engineer this process. Let's continue to build and create. And let's see how everything goes. And I said, I totally trust in the process. And because of that, I wasn't scared for my release. I was ready. But it all started by saying, I have no idea what to do. I need a mentor. I need a guide and I need to learn from someone. So I was able to do that, but still tons of ups and downs. Of course, the re-entry, reacclimating, coming home from prison. It was kind of difficult for me.

I served one year. I can only imagine what it was like for you after 13 or 14. But when I had down days, I think, most people have it worse, right? They have the family. They haven't built the way that I have, even though I wish they would. So the down days and the rebuilding was a lot of fun, but there was so much failure in getting going. So much, so many mistakes that I made. And I guess that's how you learn.

ways that cliche holds yeah i was gonna i when i was in ardap and when i i told you i used to write people's um resumes yes and we actually in ardap we did a a resident like a workshop an interview workshop where we they had all the kind of the white collar guys do interviews i don't know if you did that where we we spent like a we had like there was like a man in the mirror class and a toastmasters class actually where we did that a little okay yes okay um and so we would let these you know have these guys uh We would interview these guys. And, of course, they all just thought they were going to, they were horrible. You know, you have to talk to them, but about, you know, admitting to this, admitting this.

And I know we had lunch on Saturday. And I mentioned to you that most of the con men, which is like all the fraudsters and stuff that were locked up, you know, 99% of them were all preparing to get out. but that they were preparing to was how do I hide this so I can start another business? How do I get, how do I hire Reputation.com to hide all the articles? You know, how do I, how can I lead, Matt, you've changed your name before because one time I had stolen a guy's identity and I legally had his name changed. Don't judge me. It's too late.

And people were like, so you went through that process. How hard is that? I was like, it wasn't hard at all. I'm like, but you're trying to do this. So what? nobody can, so you can change your name and what sounds to me like you're working on your next indictment. Yeah. You know, um, but, uh, we would have these same thing. These, so I was thinking when you were talking, because you were willing to start at the bottom, right? Like I said,

most of these guys, they don't want to start at the bottom. It's, you know, at least if you start at the bottom, like you said, with, you know, humility, uh, you know, and, and you've got a better chance of being successful if you start kind of, if you realize I may have to start at the bottom. accepting rejection, but a lot of these guys, they'll have kids or, you know, wife or I got to get out and start making money for my kids. And I got, I'm like, well, maybe you get out and you go back to school. I can't, I can't go better school. I got kids. Well, wait a minute. I got, I got to provide for my kids. I got to, well, maybe going back to a technical school to become a plumber. And plumbers make $150,000 a year. And in Florida, 150,000, they're probably making

300,000 in LA or 400,000. Like, you know, that's, that's an amazing job. Lawyers are making 160, you know, electricians are making 140, 150. Like, you're basically making almost what the average lawyer's making. Maybe go back to school and, no, I can't, you know, and you can get a loan and you can't, I got to start making money. Well, wait a minute. Your kids have been without you for seven years. So I know it sucks. And you want to make some money to give to your kids, but you might, they might have to, they might have to sacrifice another two years. You know, be reasonable, have a plan and don't think you're going to hit the ground running and you have to start paying for, I got to get my kids, I got to do this, I get, wait, they may

have to sacrifice. Like, it's a shitty situation, but you have to put yourself in the best possible situation to rebuild your life and none of these guys are preparing for this. I think you do that by embracing if you've pled guilty and you broke the law. I'm not a victim. I'm going to take control of my own life. You might not agree with the sentence, the judge, your lawyer. We all have some regret, but you accept this is my plight in life.

Then you recognize, I've got to use this prison term. I wasted that first three or four months until I was in the cubicle with Michael. And he said on a scale of one to 10, one. I said, I have no idea what to do. Will you help me? Will you mentor me? I want people to do that on day one because if you can build and create these assets, life on the other side will be easier.

What you do, what Michael did for years before he went to prison and what he helped me do was like provide value. So when people are like, well, how can I begin to recalibrate and rebuild? I say just help, just provide value to someone. On our weekly webinar last week, we covered this idea, a book called Influence written in the 80s. And the number one precept, the book is so powerful that Charlie Munger and Warren Buffett sent the author,

one share of Berkshire or Hathaway worth $800,000 because they said this book has helped us make billions of dollars. The first precept in that book is just provide value, help. So like everyone on our team, they were either a client at one point, they worked hard and we hire them. They just provided value. providing value long before you ever monetized he said I just want to share insights or I want

to help dudes in prison writing a blog helping people if you share value you help that leads to opportunities because you're helping people who in turn might want to help you and thank you by going to speak at a university for free by providing initial consulting at no cost because my probation officer said if you speak to people in the halfway house before you finish your sentence fine if you charge a penny I'm going to send you back to prison I'm like there's no value right now in money, it's just value, am I good at this? Can I learn from this? Can I help someone? So I tell people, just provide value somehow, some way, and opportunities will open. But if the expectation is I'm owed something or I need a job at this level to sustain myself,

it's not in the interest of the person who you're asking that favor from and it's never going to work. And these are lessons I learned, you know, through a lot of mistakes and finally trying to get it together in prison. Even now, our entire business, so I call her advice, It's like organic. I want to pull out my iPhone. I want to film a video. I want to share a story, both good and bad. We've interviewed judges on YouTube.

This is what a judge said. Do it or not. Right. People are like, so what is your sales pitch of white color advice? I'm like, it's very clear. Whether you use all the free stuff that we give away where you hire our team,

just do what federal judges have told us to do. Told us with the chief of probation we interviewed told us to do. Whether you do it or not is up to you, but it requires work, no happy talk. No bullshit. You actually have to do the work. and some do it and of course

some don't something their case is so unique they're so different it doesn't apply to them and I say you got to own that that's your own decision so your sentence and you have 60 days before you go to prison what do you do in those 60 days before you go to prison like you personally like what was that those 60 days like in your case

you were in custody correct so you were oh no I call me with multiple passports they weren't letting me there was no well we're going to put you on an ankle monitor and let you serve self-rendering you were You were not a self-surrender candidate. I guess when you're on the run for several years,

you were not the candidate where the lawyer says, Your Honor, we think he's a good candidate to someone. Listen, my lawyer, we actually had that meeting or that court appearance where we got there. And I go, well, you don't know. When you're locked up, they don't tell you what's happening. Yeah, they just come and get you. Yeah, they just came and got me and I walk in. There's the whole, the whole, the whole thing.

is packed with with press right yeah and i'm with my lawyer and i'm you know shackled and everything and i waddle in there in my little jumpsuit and i look at my lord i'm like what are we doing and she says we're here for it's a it's a it's a um bond hearing or whatever and i went they're going to give me bond and she goes and she goes and she goes and she goes and she goes and she goes and she says no no and she and i thought well then what are we here for and i said well they could deny you the bond yes so they And I said, she goes, if they gave you bond, she said, would, what would you do? And I go, oh, I'd run. I'd run. And she's, and I knew, I knew already, because she'd always said, you're not kidding, your bond. But they had, they had a big poster board of all these photos, different photos of me from different drivers licenses and passports. And my hair is different. I've had surgery. And I've had all these things that have done to my face and different names. And I could see, because that's when I walked up and I saw that bill, that board. And I was. like what are we doing here like what the fuck is that and and she looked and she's like yeah they're not giving it and then um and i went so i go what are we doing here she goes well do you want to wave

it i go can't can we wave it and she goes yeah we don't we don't we can wave it she said you're not getting it and i was like yeah i don't want there's no i don't want to i want to be here as look at these people you know i got a sketch artist who's you know and i'm just like yeah i don't want to i don't want to i don't want to be here this is no good for me at all i'm in the middle of a board game here we're playing monopoly back at the unit no um and so she was like okay and then she said your honor and they just waved the whole thing and they waddled me back out and that was it but well i have a question before i tell you what happened before my surrender did you what was your statement like to the judge i was horrible i cried like a baby was almost like you know

you ever i i don't you actually cried like a small child like you don't how are your your kids I have a six and ten-year-old. Well, you're probably like your six-year-old when you take away something, you know, that's just completely... You take away the iPhone when he's watching Mr. Beast. There's a problem. I mean, the whole... It was horrible. What did you say, Your Honor?

I'm so sorry. My bad. You know, my bad. Like, like... It was very much, it was made a mistake. I didn't have anything super prepared because I knew... But your lawyer didn't work with you to write on... work on a statement? There was nothing. She was, there was, I'm not saying she couldn't have,

the problem is my lawyer's name was Millie. And I really like Millie. It doesn't make sense when you really like the person, but you're still like, you didn't help me much, you know, but then I also think when I, now that I know, as much as I know, if I'm going through the system and seeing other lawyers and other, and what was, what could be prepared, I realize like, I'm so, you understand that it's not my case is nowhere near yours i'm not a little guilty like i'm like 140 percent guilty like there's there's 100 percent guilty and then there's you went beyond like you made this a you're working 60 80 hours a week 40 hours would have been guilty i'm working 80 hours yeah i'm doing everything you can do wrong and so there was i just don't know what she could

have said uh that would have helped me um what did did even before that i have to ask that you had the probation interview from custody were you prepared for that interview i was prepared you know i was prepared in the fact that she showed up beforehand out of all the lawyers she was the person that showed up the most were you ready for that interview only because of i'd say 80% because of the other inmates yeah 20% you know she gave me the if you you know you can get a year off for the drug program that's and i'm like they're talking about giving me so i got i got a ps i says like 20s like it actually said 32 years i'm like a 30 year 30 as well it may not mean a lot now but it's going to when when you're closer to your sentence

and I'm like it's just so unfathomable 23 is like who cares so it's forever she she so she basically was like look if you've had any type any type undocumented any type of addiction you need to bring that up you know and of course the other inmates are like bro they've already told me you need to do this you need to say this you need to try and get this program But when you're at the probation interview, are you saying, I pled guilty? I accept responsibility. Are you just, you're like... I'm just answering questions.

And she did say, like, look, you know, your father, you're raised by an alcoholic father. You want to mention that. Some of the mitigating factors, right? She's throwing all of that in. But, you know, when it came to it in front of the judge, like, she didn't... So the government asked for how long it's your sentence? So initially, my PSI was 32 years to life. but I of course once I got it I said oh we can go ahead and go to trial and she's like what I'm like I mean that's the maximum sentence they can give me is 30 it was two extra years for aggravated identity theft you go 30 years 32 years is the max sentence they can give me let's go to trial I will preserve my right to appeal I will and she was like oh so she calls the US attorney US attorney obviously doesn't want that sure so they come in and they they say what do you think doesn't apply of course we've got a whole slew that doesn't apply

And so they knock off just enough to get me around to 26 years. So I knew going in they're going to recommend 26 years. She's Millie said, we've got several enhancements that do not apply. And I read the enhancements. They give the little example of what the enhancement means. They give an example of here's an example. And I thought, that is not what I did. You're right.

That's not even close. We get in front of the judge. He disagreed. He at one point said, like one of them was, one of them was, that if you use a charitable institution in furtherance of your crime, right? And the example is you're going door to door collecting for the Cancer Society, and you're asking for money on behalf of the Cancer Society. People are willing to give because they think they're giving to the Cancer Society.

I happen to have a badge that said I was a statistical surveyor. And when I would, and I had a statistical survey. for. When I would interview homeless people to get their information, every once in a while, I would say, well, I'm doing surveys. And I would say for the Salvation Army to try and determine where we place our next Salvation Army complex to help the homeless. Now, of course, they don't give a shit, by the way. Nobody ever gave me money. I mean, nobody ever gave me anything because of that. What they would say is, I'm not interested. And I'd go, it pays $20 right now. So I'm one, I'm giving you $20. And you're giving me the information, not because of the Salvation Army. You're giving me the

money because, or the information because I gave you $20. So that doesn't apply. And I thought, yeah, you're right. That doesn't. That's, then people, people giving you money for this institution. These people are, I'm giving them money and they're giving me information and it has nothing to do with Salvation Army. That was the argument she made.

And the judge went, I feel like he sullied their name because I uttered their name, which didn't give me any credibility with the homeless person. It was the $20. Sure. And so that was an extra two levels. and that at extra two levels is at that point is an extra 48 months. Judge wasn't a fan of Matt Cox. He was not a fan.

He was not. And this happens over and over again. So Millie was like, look, these two or three enhancements, we're going to win those. And I was like, yeah, absolutely. That doesn't apply at all. And so I was expecting to get about 12 years. And Millie and I were the only people that expected that, by the way. The judge wasn't on board.

So, yeah, the judge gives me, it's 26, it's 26 years. It's 316 months, 26 years, and four months. And so, yeah, by the time I stand up and. Alacute. Alacute. It's horrific. It's, I'm sorry. I messed up.

I compounded my decision one after another, blah, blah, blah. You know, and based on everything the prosecution said, you know, it was, it made, didn't. I think 26, I'll never think I deserve 26 years or that anybody that done what I did deserve 26 years because I technically have four victims. I didn't take any money from those, but they did those victims, but they actually had to buy had to hire an attorney and one of them paid 12 grand. One was like six, one's eight, ones, like the total is 30 for four people. And to, to hire an attorney to fix the damage I'd done to the title of their home.

Other than that, it's all, it's all title companies and banks. So to me, it's like, this is insane that I'm getting this much time. So, but based, you know, look, the judge doesn't know any better, and that's where you fell on the guidelines. And he was upset, and the whole mortgage crisis is going on. And all the newspapers are saying that these, you know, mortgage fraudsters, mortgage fraudsters, mortgage scams, mortgage. And then I get up there. He hammered me. And so.

And how long had you been in at that time? A year. I actually got sent us a year to the day that I got arrested. So did they send you to a medium? They sent me to a medium. the first day I got there somebody got stabbed or a couple of people

but I know the conversation I had was when they started screaming lockdown my celly which I just met 20 minutes earlier ran up he's like

I'm like what's going on he's like we gotta get in the cell he was he's going to get in the cell man got to get in the cell and I went I said what happened he said he was oh someone got stabbed

in the wreckyard and I went I said I go they killed somebody in the wreckyard he's like nah man they just stabbed them up a little bit

And he did his hand like this. I hate to laugh, but it's one of the best deliveries I've ever seen from you. But that was really good. But you'll never be able to do it that well again. I'm in a place where the term getting stabbed up a little bit is a thing. Yeah. And I was like, you know what I would have done if I were you? Prepared for this.

Here's what I would have done. I'd have pulled out a pen and paper. And I just said 26 years, less good time and time served. When can I get to a low? I mean, how long did it take? take before you got to a low? Three years. And I was delusional, too, by the way, because you understand, I never really let myself think I was going to do 26 years. I was convinced I was going to get them to send me to a camp in six or seven years or something. Somehow I was going to

get myself to a camp early and I'd escape. My first thought was, I'll just leave. Like, I'm not doing 23 or 20, because it was about 23 years. I would have been out when I was 60. Like, I mean, I'm supposed to be in prison right now. So, anyway, yeah, it was a, but yeah, my allocution was not good. I don't know what I could have done to, because I was so overwhelmingly guilty. And, uh, did the judge speak negatively to you before this? Oh my God. Sometimes they just, sometimes it was, so when I, so when I came home from prison, I, and I had

nothing to do, I would go to sentencing hearings. So in L.A., so I'd been to like 1,500 of them. I'd go there with a P.B. and J, a Coca-Cola, and an apple, and I would sit in the back and listen. I'd be like, wow, this judge went crazy on this defendant, but only gave him a year and a day, this judge said practically nothing and gave this guy nine years. So I was so fascinated by the nuances of judges, how they reason, how some rely on the probation officer, some don't. You learn a lot about lawyers and how prepared they are. I would say, like of the first hundred sentencing hearings, the first 50 from lawyers felt like my cousin Vinnie where the lawyer was stuttering

and didn't know what to say. I'm like, oh, it was like a treasure trove of content, but I'm fascinated at the reasoning of the sentencing hearing. So before the 26 years, did the judge just go crazy on you? Oh, yeah. Like, you're a terror, you're a menace. You are, you should, you were a risk to the community. I'll tell you two things that you'll, you'll like. Well, first, he said what I did. He was unlike some CEO of a corporation that cooks the books by changing a couple of numbers. He said what Mr. Cox did was extremely personal. You know, He met these people. Now, keep in mind, what he's heard is Mr. Cox has over 100, well, over 50 victims,

which the government worked very hard to get me over 50. And they claim people were victims multiple times. And so they got me just over 50. So they've been saying over 50 victims, over 50 victims. And then they have two of my actual victims show up and speak. Yeah. So in the judge's mind, there's 50 more people just like them.

But the truth is, there's four individual victims and everybody else is a corporation. So that was one thing. That's what he's thinking. These people are representative of over 50 other victims. So I understand in his, so of course he said it was very personal, what you did, you met these people. I didn't met what people. There were three people.

I mean, there's, I'm sorry, there's four people. I only met, and honestly, I only met like three of those four people. And the rest were, you know, the rest were fucking corporations. So that's not true. But I get what he said, what he saw. There's 50 more people like this. So he's thinking scumbag. And let me tell you the worst possible thing that happened was while I'm standing there and the prosecution is speaking, he's staring at me. I don't really realize he's staring. I'm kind of just listening. I'm listening to her. I'm looking down. I'm looking over at my parents. I'm, you know, looking about I'm kind of sitting there while while the prosecutors. rambling off all these things that I've done. Mr. Cox did this. He did this. You can mind, there's almost 10 years of things I've done.

You know, he did this, he did this, he did this, he did, you know, he's surveying people, he did this. And then at one point, I'm sitting there. So have you ever seen the movie, Pirates of the Caribbean? At the end of the first Pirates of the Caribbean, while they are reading off all the things that Jack Sparrow has done. Oh, he's standing there like this. And he's listening. He's listening. And at one point, they say, impersonated a member of the clergy. And he goes, that's right. That's right. Literally, while the prosecutor's reading off all of the things I've done, Mr. Cox, you know, stole someone's identity, got so many tickets in that person's name, he had to go to driving school as that person to keep them from losing their license. Okay. And then she says, stole another person's name and legally had his name changed. And I, went that's right that's right like i actually kind of smiled like that's right like i forgot about that and i look up at the judge and i'm doing that that's right and i look at the judge and i thought

well get the fucking what are you doing get a hold of yourself like and i was just like oh my god and so the judge is just like this arrogant prick yeah so when he hammered me he hammered me and he had you know i disagree with the time but that's what the that's what the guidelines said and he hammered me. Now, here's the interesting thing. You'll like, and by the way, this is a new judge. He had literally just become a judge a few weeks before I was caught, and he was assigned my case. Matter of fact, all of the hearings that we had for the year were in, so in the federal buildings,

they typically have one courtroom, which is like a really nice courtroom, right? So they have a big case, they'll do it there. We kept using that. And I would walk in, it was opulent. It was amazing. It was like this is a massive, you tell there's a lot of money spent here because they were renovating his courtroom because when the judge comes in, they get to renovate their new courtroom, they get a new courtroom, whatever.

So we're in this massive thing and that's how new he was. So I keep going in this big courtroom. Well, my lawyer, so he was so new and he really liked my lawyer. this is what everybody told me he was a fan of milly he was a fan of milly you couldn't not be a fan of milly so he was a fan of milly and milly had told me at one point that she had had a she'd had a one of her clients was sentenced and the judge was really talked shit to him you know you this you that you this and then the brother got up and the brother his brother told him about his brother like he he stood up for his brother like my brother's a good person he this and he's like and he gives starts giving

shit to the fucking brother and so after the sentencing milly says to the judge go says i want to talk to the judge and goes and talks to the judge and says what are you doing this guy's brother just you know and and lectures him and as a result of that i think that maybe that's part of the reason he liked her because he would she would give him shit so he literally like a week or so later um milly gets a phone call from the judge's clerk and says okay you have court on tuesday or whatever and she's like for what for so-and-so she's like he was already sentenced she goes no no he's bringing him back he brings him back and knocks like three and a half years off his sentence. He'd given him like 12 and knocked it down to nine. And he said, I've thought about it.

I really thought about what your brother said and the whole thing. And I'm taking that in consideration now. And so I'm resentencing him. And he knocked off like three years. So he's not not a decent person. So Millie was influential in helping that other defendant get a few years off. But in your case, you know, there's no way the judge was going to allow that to happen. Well, I was so overwhelmingly, I think, so there's two things that happen. One, my judge was new. And although he shouldn't have taken this into consideration, the prosecution got up and multiple times that Mr. Cox will be coming back. I know this is a big sentence, but Mr. Cox will be coming back for a Rule 35, at least one problem. He may be.

coming back for two. So, you know, in his mind, which is a sentence reduction, right, for cooperation, in his mind, when he gave me that big sentence, he probably thought, and I know this because of what I'm about to tell you, he thought, I'm giving him a big sentence, but he's going to get a cut. Like, he's not going to get stuck with this sentence. Now, here's what happened. I went to prison, and the cooperation that I'd given them did not result in any arrests. Those people, that they were now, we were now in the middle of 2008, 2009, there was a financial crisis. Those cases were dated because I was on the run for three years, so those cases are now four or five years old. Some of the statute of limitations are up. Now, some of them were

banks, so they weren't. They were 10 years at that time. And so I, you know, I'd been interviewed several times by Dateline and American Greed, but the government was saying that that didn't reach the minimum qualification to get to get me a Rule 35, a sentence introduction. So at one point, after about nine, no, after six or seven years, Millie goes in to have somebody be resentenced. And I'm sorry, be sentenced. So her client gets sentenced and the judge says, Millie, can you come back in my chambers? And she says, sure.

So she goes back into his chambers. She said, I walked into his chambers, and she tells me this on the phone in the prison. She said he brought her back into it to, and you can imagine what a, she is like a good person because this is six or seven years after I've been sentenced. She's still answering my phone, public defender. It doesn't happen. Yeah. So she tells me, I went in the back to the judge's chambers.

And the judge says, what's going on with Matt Cox? and she went, Matt, Matt Cox. She goes, why would you? Why? And he goes, Millie, he said, I don't remember the names of a lot of the guys that I've sentenced. He was, but you give a white-collar criminal 26 years. He goes, you remember his name. He said, and I was under the impression that he was going to be coming back for a sentence reduction.

What happened? And she said, well, the government won't file one. He's done this and this. and then she names off everything. She says, and they just won't file one. And we can't, we don't, I don't know how to get them to force them to do it. And he says, well, what's he doing about it? She says, well, what should he, what can he do about it?

He goes, I can't tell you what he can do about it. I can't tell you that is I am telling you he needs to get himself back in front of me to be resentenced. And so she then tells me that. And so when she tells me that at the same time, I've been caught, I've done these American greed these date lines. At the same time, I get contacted by a guy that does the training courses for all mortgage brokers and loan officers in the United States have to take so many hours of continuing education. This guy teaches a, he has a school that teaches those continuing education. So he had approached me and asked me if I would help teach that course, write the ethics

and fraud course that helps meet those guidelines for the federal government. And so we were working on that. Millie and I were working on that. And the prosecution wanted me to do it. She said, if he does it, I'll reduce his sentence. That was one of the things we were working on. And so the judge said, she said, and we're trying to get the cameras into the federal prison, but they don't want to let the cameras in so that Mr. Cox can be on camera teaching the course. And they really want that. And the judge said, what if I wrote a letter to the warden? And she went, she said that that would be great i mean and he goes okay he said give me the name of the word and he said i'll write a letter and so he writes this letter if you read the letter he says he says everything in this letter

he shouldn't say like i promise you the prosecution wrote this read this letter and thought fuck matt wrote this what he yeah he wrote he the letter basically said he says a bunch of stuff in it but in the end he says as a part of mr cox's cooperation and plea agreement it is known that working with the government to help educate like the public is a part of his cooperation agreement. Ain't nothing in my cooperation agreement. Say anything about that. But by saying that, that gave me teeth to file saying that I was under the understanding

that this was a part of it. My lawyer was under the impression. And the judge was under it. So you know, right then that gives me enough to go back into court, whether or not I would have won that motion because now I'm trying to compel the government to file something. And he, in that letter, he said one of my favorite quotes, and I put it on the cover of my book. So I'm sure he's, I'm sure that my judge is irritated. As soon as if he's ever seen this, he's probably thinking, I never should have written that letter. And it is

the scope, complexity, and nefariousness of Cox's fraud are breathtaking. Timothy C. Baton Senior U.S. District Court Judge. Wow. I was fine. So I put it on. It's a horrible jacket cover. It is a horrible, but I did write a book.

Anyway. I'd like that before I leave, please. Absolutely. Okay, I'm flying home to California. Yeah, we're going to do that. So, but it's funny that he, so he, you see what I'm saying, like he. But it also, it's an interesting concept because a lot of people think they get sentenced. Now, I've been to sentencing hearings where, like, Judge Carter will say,

I'm going to follow your progress. In fact, when you're in the halfway house, I want you to come back and see me. Other judges may not tell you that, but it doesn't mean they're not following your progress. So part of what we convey to defendants is there's this continuation. You're trying to build to influence a sentencing judge.

What you build now can influence the judge, can influence a case manager to give you more halfway house time. If you go to the halfway house, you don't want to work in McDonald's or KFC, even though all work is honorable. So the work that you do now will influence that job in the halfway house and how quickly get off probation. So these stakeholders are always following you.

So it's like, how can you work to influence them? You did something post-sentencing or pre-sentencing that compelled the judge to think, I can help him, or there's something here where, in retrospect, I could have done it differently. We want all defendants to try to influence their judge or stakeholders in a similar way. And that, like, changed your life. That really, you could still be on the inside right now, had it not been for the generosity or kindness of that judge. And that's exactly what it was.

Yes. And including filing 22255. which he basically paved the way for them to actually get me relief. If it hadn't been for the judge and both of those, had he not known all the things that I was doing? I had to give you another example is when I got, you know that's true because when I got to the halfway, I'm sorry, when I got out and I was on probation, I was sentenced in Georgia. I was released in Florida because that's where I live.

So technically what happened, what's supposed to happen is your probation officer puts in a change of venue. So the judge releases you and moves your case to the local district where you're at. My probation officer wrote three emails asking for that to happen. She finally called my judge's clerk and said, listen, I've sent you three emails. You keep ignoring them. I need this guy's case transferred to the middle district of Florida. It's currently in the northern district of Georgia.

And she said, oh, yeah, this is Matt Cox. And she said, yes. She said, no, the judge isn't going to release it. he has a vested interest in Mr. Cox's case. He wants to see it through to the end. You know, he's not, not that he's writing me. He's not, we're not texting, but he wants to see, he wants to know what's going on with my case. And I think a lot of judges do.

I mean, there have been policy changes. I think it depends on the, on the person. I think it depends on what a person does. It's, I want people to have great lawyers. We have lawyers, clients who have public defenders. We have some who have given tens of, of millions of dollars to lawyers and everything in between. You want the best lawyer, of course, but it doesn't change. Judge Boone, a YouTube video told Michael Santos,

if you fix my window, I don't want to hear, I'm sorry, how are you going to fix the window? And only a defendant can do that. Judge Bennett in another video said, the nuts and bolts of the work has to come from the defendant. Judge Pearson told me at a conference, I need to know every fracture in detail of that person's life. If it's not documented, it didn't happen. So that book is an asset. Demonstrating why you're a candidate for leniency is essential, but things have changed. When I was in prison in 2008, the first, the second chance act had just passed, which said, okay, we're going to take you from like 45 to 90 days in the halfway house. But there wasn't a mechanism to get your get home earlier. Now with the first

step act, you can become extraordinary and compelling. Do you know Adam Claussen, who served 213 years? Yeah, I interviewed him. Yeah. So I knew, I knew Roe well before Adam was released from prison. That first step act allowed Adam on a 213 year sentence to get out of prison after 20 years, right? That law didn't exist when I was in prison. So we tell people things are getting better. We're advocating for more policy, incentivizing excellence. That's what the nonprofit does. But work to show why you are a candidate for an earlier release, candidate to get more liberty as quickly as possible. And unfortunately, too many defendants. They just don't do it. They outsource all the work and say, I hired this lawyer. As a former U.S. attorney, there's nothing

for me to do. And that's just inconsistent. That's what I did. I hired lawyers, figured that's what they're paid to do, and I did nothing to demonstrate through my own efforts why I had earned a shorter sentence. And it's the reason I got the longest sentence possible of 18 months. I know that because the FBI essentially told me that. And these are what we want defendants to learn from and act on. And policy has changed. And we think more is coming, frankly, and we really do. So, I don't know. Yeah. Well, I was going to say, when guys have talked to me about their lawyers. Oh, no, no, no, I got a lawyer. I'm like, well, what's going on? Oh, I don't know. I mean, he hadn't called me. I'm like, okay, listen, I said, you need to be your own advocate. You know what I'm saying?

You need to know what's going on. You need to find out what's going on. Because if you think you paid your lawyer 200,000 or 100,000, you could kick back and wait to be called. Like, that's probably a mistake. Yes. And I think also the lawyers, I can't tell you how many guys I've talked to where I'm like, well, what's your, what is your PSR say or what's your lawyer say? Or this is while I'm incarcerated. How many guys I knew that were like, had paid their lawyer half a million dollars or a million dollars to go to trial, they lost. And then when the pre-sentence, when the probation officer is trying to schedule a pre-sentence interview to write up the pre-sentence report, the lawyer's like, yeah, yeah, don't even go

to that. I wouldn't even go to it. It's like, what a mistake? Are you serious? And that's what we want defendants to, like what Michael taught me in prison. you've got to be the CEO of your own life. You have to be engaged. If you hire a lawyer, you've got to let the know I'm going to be engaged. No one knows more about my own life than me. And there's like these mechanisms people can benefit from to show why they're

candidates. So people say, I want to do the work. Well, what does that work mean? In our opinion, you've got to be able to show progress over time to a case manager or a judge. So we've had case managers. We've had probation officers on our weekly webinar. And there was a case manager at Yankton who said, I follow the progress of people in prison. So we have a totally free platform. So when I was in prison, I maintained a blog, a website that costs money. We have prison professor talent, which is run through the nonprofit. It's free.

It enables people in prison to document their journey through prison. They write a blog or a post, their release plan, book reports, progress reports, share it with our nonprofit. We posted at no cost to them. So we have people like Ryan Patterson, Tracy Hudson, and got 12 months in the halfway house. They will take their talent profile together with their release plan and go into their case manager and say, I know everyone wants to get out of here earlier. I am no different.

I wish I thought more about the decisions I made that led me here. I'm simply here to share with you the progress I've made while I'm in prison. Why I think I'm a candidate for an earlier release, not through asking, but by showing. Then they can show their profile. I'm not naive and telling you a case manager is going to read 300 posts, but they can see the defendant's investing the time where the prisoner is to build, to teach. We have people who will teach courses in prison and how to create a best-in-class re-entry plan. So I think it's required to have a plan.

It's extraordinary to teach other people how to do that. Then if you're Adam Clausen, who wouldn't even be eligible for Earned Time Credits under the First Step Act, you got to release after 20 years in prison because of the First Step Act. How are you extraordinary and compelling that requires creating and sharing?

And we want people to understand the law and use it to their advantage, but you can't just rely on a lawyer to say why you're a candidate for lennox. you've got to that book you have is an asset my book was an asset a post is an asset we interviewed the former chief of probation who said even if the initial plan is on a napkin write it say what you're going to do and then if you do it you have progress and that's how you overcome a cynical judge you says you only got sorry because you got caught you only found remorse because you want to avoid

prison or you only cooperated to avoid prison put yourself in the shoes of a judge of a prosecutor what is success for them? And only then can you engineer a plan. The problem is not enough defendants. They just don't do it. Even people see the interviews we've done with judges. And they're like, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I'm like, well, if it made sense

and if you were truly engaged, you would begin to do it. You don't. You're not doing any of it. And we want people to begin to do that, whether they hire white-collar advice, or we just use all the stuff we give away. Right. Which is a ton.

Yeah. I was going to say, I remember, what do you call him Mike or Michael? Michael Santos? You call it Mike or Michael? I call it Michael. I call it M.G. Michael. Okay.

So Michael, I remember him going on and on about how they, you know, he's like, we got this book, we got this book, they give away all this, like we send all this stuff. He donates to, it's all free. It's all free. The nonprofit, his preparing for success after prison course is a first step back to approve course in the Bureau of Prisons. So he's toured more than 30 prisons in the last year and a half, implementing the programs. His courses are in every

every California prison. So you have people in California getting time off their sentence. Prisoners in the BOP getting earned time credits, right? And a number of people who come into our community, they can't afford a book. They can't afford to retain our team. And that's why we say we give everything away for three books, blogs, a webinar that Michael will lead today because I'm here with you today in Florida. And some people, of course, say, I need help.

They're like me. Like I told Michael in person, I can't do it. Yes, I went to USC, and yes, I was a decent writer, and I have a lot of support. I have no idea what to do. I need help. Some people will reach out to our team and say, I have no idea what to do. I need help. I value time more than money, and I got to begin to engineer a plan. Some people say, I'd love to do that.

I don't have the resources. Come to our webinar. We answer all your questions. Download our courses, books. It's all free. Just implement it. And like you, it's why we create and give away so much content. There's no call to action, hire us, send us money.

It's be the CEO of your own life. provide value and contribute and everything changes you know um i wrote a book uh called generation oxy uh about a kid named uh douglas dodd dog dog's lawyer which i think they paid i don't know what they paid 40 50 thousand dollars or whatever um on an oxy case his lawyer told him so he went to his lawyer this is that he's been locked up right he's he goes to his lawyer and he's like listen And he's like, I read that you can get a downward departure for mitigating circumstances for a product of environment. And the judge was like, yeah, I mean, you're not going to get that.

He says not, he's like, no, no, he's like, but everybody I know there drugs, my, my mom's boyfriends were on drugs or drug dealer. He names all this stuff about everybody I know has been on drugs, been in prison, my uncle was in prison for drugs, like everything, that, of course I'm going to be. He's like, you're a clean cut white kid. He said, if my black clients that were raised or born and raised in the projects don't get that. He's like, you're not getting it, Doug. He goes, well, can I, I could still write the judge a letter.

He writes the judge a letter explaining. It's like eight pages and horribly written, writes the letter, talks about the whole thing, talks about the opiates, talks about the car accident, and he got into it to everything, the whole thing, writes it, and his judge gives him, I think he knocked off 22 months or something. gave him a reduction so he gave him a reduction for um for productive environment even when his lawyer is telling him don't write the letter it's not worth mentioning don't do it so your lawyers though so you know just like but i feel like that's the same thing where it's like you have to take these responsibilities on yourself like it's you got to try and the judge talks by

the way the judge talks about the letter i read the letter i read about it and starts naming off like your uncle this and your mom's boyfriend this and this and your your accident and I really read the letter and said as a result. So things really, so in 2014, I was still doing some corporate speaking. I had a baby. I got tired of traveling. And then in one month, I said, we got four incredible outcomes in Connecticut and New York. And I said, wow, this is like, this is the Willy Wonka chocolate ticket. Because in four separate hearings in New York, Judge Hall, Judge Kaplan, they referenced specifically the work the defendant had done. done. It's not just I'm sorry. Here's my plan to do better. I just don't identify with victims.

Here's how I've begun to make them whole. Yes, I was a hedge fund manager, but I'm working here at Kinko's to begin to earn a record as a law binding citizen and paying taxes. So we created timelines and we built and we measured it. All of them got measurably shorter sentences. I said, wow, this is what a defendant needs to do. Judge Boone, a video said to us and no disrespect to lawyer. Judge Boo said it and Judge Boo was a lawyer. Some lawyers have gotten mad at me that we play it. Judge Booth said it. Zero to one percent of the remorse factor at sentencing. He said influences him from a lawyer because the lawyers paid to say it. Now, I also had a federal judge say to me to a degree she discounts what a U.S. attorney says because what a success for a U.S.

attorney, advanced their career, looking on television, maybe run for president, become a defense attorney someday. So she's like, everyone has an agenda. I need to hear directly from the defendant. And there are some lawyers over the years who have said this letter you've created is too long. Let's not discuss if it's too long. Is it compelling? Is it it honest? Is it introspective? Does it identify with victims? You're going to turn in a 50-page memo that's mostly boilerplate. The judges have seen seven million times, yet this is too long. Years ago, we had someone in Ohio who wrote, we created in the letter that when he was like 12, he began like delivering, doing work with his father, right? And he was like, as chances spend time

in the mind to work, we are very poor. And the lawyer said, this is fluff. This is like nonsense. The judge doesn't give a rat's ass when you were working with your dad. and he got really freaked out. We actually did a YouTube video with him. His name is Mike Stole. And he called, he's like, I'm really distraught. I really like this letter. I really think it's honest.

I'm really like, I've had a life of discipline and commitment and character. I was porn. I've worked to build. And while I weren't turning in, I said, what do you think we should do? And he's like, well, I think I should do exactly what those judges told Michael Santos I should do.

So I'm going to do it. I'm going to hold my lawyer accountable. I'm going to turn it in. And at the sentencing hearing, and the judge commented, to your point, like on that story, thank you for sharing it with me. because it's easy for a prosecutor to try to convey to the judge.

All they want to do is focus on that one moment in life, right? They don't want to look at the totality of your life. They want to look at this conduct, which could be out of character, or a short window, and they want to send you to prison for a very long time. So I think a defendant has an obligation to get all of these factors to the court through their own efforts and their own words. Show how, as a judge said to me one time, how are they part of the solution?

How are they contributing and giving back in a way that's realistic? So we think defendants have an obligation to do it. A huge defendant's mistake, a huge mistake defendants make. They just wait till sentencing to get this information to the judge. So we did a webinar called presuasion. And the idea is if your probation officer is going to write a report on how long you should serve in prison, and if that probation officer is going to be at your sentencing hearing, does it make sense today to not focus on influencing the judge, but perhaps influencing the probation

officer is going to recommend how long you should serve in prison? Let's get that asset or case study your life story to the probation officer, get it in the probation report. And like, if you're not sentenced for a year and a half or two years, you can then update that report at sentencing for the judge and show that progress along the way. That's how you overcome your only sorry because you got caught. You only are remorseful because you want to avoid prison. If it's not documented, a federal judge told me it didn't happen. The earlier defendants do that, the better they're going to get. Yeah, whether they have a work with our team or do it on their own with the right message

because too many defendants, especially in the white-collar crime space, they focus on themselves and have bad intentions, right? Who intends to end up here? I didn't go to USC with intentions that someday I would be in federal prison. Things happen. So my concern when defendants try on their own is it's the wrong message and it doesn't focus on the only thing the court really cares about victims. And we want defendants to do better.

wrapping up the question earlier about the two months between prison and stuff like that, I knew my judge would allow me to self-surrender. Judge Wilson said that the day of my sentencing. My lawyers asked for two months. He gave me two months. And walking out of that courtroom, I walked through downtown Los Angeles for many hours by myself, like wandering around downtown. Like the reality sets in.

Like, how am I here? Why, I'm going to federal prison? and all these opportunities in life. It's kind of like Shawshank Redemption where that big guy's in the selling is like, I'm not supposed to be here. It's very humbling to wake up at a point in your life and say, this isn't what I had planned for myself.

It's very hard to embrace. And then I went through this process of renting out my home and turning it over to a new family, of telling friends and family, like what I'm going to try to do. I said my only goal is were to learn Spanish and get in better shape. I didn't know that I would meet Michael and begin to build this business.

with him. And two days before I went to prison, we had a huge going away party, which I kind of regret. And it's like, why am I celebrating going to prison? But we did under the idea, like, we just want to celebrate the fact that you're here and you're healthy and you're okay and we're going to miss you. But we had this huge going away party. And then Monday morning, April 28th, I left Calabasas around 7 a.m. with my mom and brother. We drove up through I-5, I-5 through Bakersfield. I had my final prison meal. You know it's a bad restaurant when it's adjacent to one of those gas stations. So it's like a Carl's Jr. Slash gas station. Right. And I ate like I had a date with the electric chair. I mean, it was like two

Western bacon's, the fries, the shake. Literally, you think they were going to inject me or put the gas in me. Full, sickening, disgusted, tired. We pull into the prison. And I remember telling myself, at least I get credit today for time served. But I would say that two months before I went in was the most difficult part. A part of me wished I had gone in sooner to get credit. I know a lot of defendants in the waiting and wondering mode even before sentencing feel like they're already in prison. And I always say to them, if you're not going to begin to create influence the process to get a shorter sentence, you might as well go in there and get credit for time served because you're already in prison. Make sure if you're going to be out,

you're doing things that are going to get you a shorter sentence or get you out of prison earlier, if not just go get started. But that two-month window was the consequences are severe. You know, they're supposed to be severe, right? The court would say, this is the consequence that follows making really bad choices. And I'll never forget guys leaving a meeting with Ms. Mickleberry in prison, our case manager, and they'd go and say, I have a family, I need to get home, there's a job waiting for me. We're going to lose the home. My wife lost her job.

And they just simply say, if you were so concerned about that, you probably shouldn't have stole $5 million from Medicare or created victims. So you have to create a different message to influence them because a case manager is only going to make a bet on you if it's in their own interest, if you've shown that you're going to be an asset. And we think you do that, but not by telling them,

but by showing them. And these are lessons I've learned over the last 15 years and a lot of heartache because we continue to get calls from people who get into trouble, right? They're using the iPhones, the sentences are longer than they should be. They're home for many years,

complaining, playing the victim. It's like, you serve nine months. I'm not diminishing nine months, but it's like you're still in prison. You haven't learned to overcome it. This is in no way become an asset. To your point earlier, they're trying to pretend it didn't happen. Removing press releases.

The DOJ can be the best marketer in the world with these press releases if you let them. You've got to build on top of it. But it takes a long, long time, right? Like I'm 15 years and hundreds of thousands of dollars into this branding. So are you. You're getting there. Earlier, you can start the better in my experience. I wish I started when I saw United States of America versus my name.

I didn't start until I was in that cubicle with Michael. and he said on a scale of 1 to 10, how well are you preparing? I said, a 1. He said, what will the rest of your life look like because of that? And I said, oh, that was the aha moment. We want prisoners, defendants to have that aha moment quickly. And I guess that'll be the last question for you. What was your aha moment?

Or you said, I got to get it together. You began interviewing guys, you're writing books. What was that moment for you? I mean, it was probably after I finished my book. To be honest, it was that I, I got to, I really enjoyed writing my book. And I think at the beginning of writing the book, the first version of my book,

I had not mentioned so much of my life. Does that make sense? And when my literary agent read it, he came to see me. And I remember he read the book. And the guy's, it's not easy to come see somebody in prison. It's a trek. He had to drive out here.

That's an out for him. It was an hour and a half. drive it was sitting in the visitation room getting shook down by guards it was a whole process so by time he's saying so i'm assuming he's coming to see me to say i want to represent you this is amazing and he did he said this is an amazing story and he said but i don't he said but in the end when you got 26 years my first thought was good fuck him he had it coming and i was just like whoa and he said if you want me to represent you you, he said, you're going to have to rewrite this book. He goes, you don't mention anything

about, and he just starts to name, you know, your father, your upbringing, you're how you felt this, why you did this. I said, well, nobody wants to know about all that. He said, no, no, no. He said, people want to believe, they want to know and believe that there is what those influences were on you that caused you to do these things. They want to know what you were thinking, why you thought it was okay, how you justified it, how you, you know, all. of those things. So he said, you need to put all of that in there because in the end, it will help people become engaged with you and support you and want to see you succeed. He goes, by the end of this book, it needs to be a book about, you know, people want, people

are going to want not want you to get 26 years. And they want to see you succeed after doing the 26 years because at that point I still had 26 years. And so I rewrote that whole book. I had to read a couple of books. on how to write memoirs, I read that. And during the course of that, I'd say during the course of that rewrite, there was a lot of introspective, you know. Well, that's what good writing is. You write it, you go through it again, of course. That's the beauty.

The earlier someone starts, the better. Well, that's what Hemingway said. Well, there's no great writers. There's great rewriters. And so I rewrote that book probably, one full time and probably a good portion of it again was notes from him, not bad. and then so and I liked it so much so this is when I knew

that I really felt something was I gave it to a buddy of mine a couple people had read it right I told you that a bunch of people had read it I would like I just read it and edit it tell me yeah this is wrong you know whatever but I had given it to a buddy of mine to read because he kept saying let me read it I was like alright alright so I let him read it and he came up to me

and when he gave it back to me he handed the book to me and he kind of held it, you know, for a second. And he looked at me and he goes, I want to say, I'm sorry about your dad. And I mean, he starts crying and I start crying. And I just like that, boom. And I thought, I thought, fuck, like this is, this is an amazing book. And I remember thinking, like, wow, like you did write a great book. And so at that point, I started thinking, I should probably be doing this.

Like this might be something I could do. I'm fucking pissed off at you right now. I started thinking to myself like, hey, maybe this is something I could do because I liked doing it. I really enjoyed ordering the Freedom of Information Act. I like doing the research. I like putting together the everything. You know, I didn't know how great I was at it. Even though everybody keeps telling you you're great, but let's face it, you know, you're locked up with me.

You're going to tell me it's great. Like everybody's going to say that. So I started writing the, so I decided, you know what, I need to just. start doing this because I think I really kind of figured this out and I think I'm good at this and I'm pretty sure they can't throw me back in prison for this. And the judge was adamant that I couldn't commit fraud anymore. He'd made that very clear. That wasn't an option. And so I thought, you know what I'll do? I'm going to start writing these guys' stories. And maybe I have 20 years or at that point, either, you know, whatever it was at that point, it was probably, actually,

it was probably, I still probably had 15 or 16 years at that point when I finished this. And I remember thinking, I could have a whole slew of these things. But, you know, it's interesting, even similar to Michael, because there was no way to pathway to advances released it. He was going to do every day the 26 years. You found a way, even if you didn't get a reduction, that you weren't just serving time. The time was serving you. You were interviewing guys.

How cathartic was it for you to interview guys and for them to share their story with you, for someone to have interest and learn? You made the time serve you. I think it's helped the rest of your life. It's why part of the reason you're having the success. but it also helped you serve your sentence with dignity and purpose. And that's like, that's really wonderful. Well, I felt like at that, it's funny because at that point, it was, it was, it almost felt like you were at, like you had a job that you loved.

Yes. You just happened to be living in a shitty apartment. And not getting paid much. Right, right. But that's, that's what it turned into. It turned into suddenly it was something that every day I woke up and I was like, oh my God, I got to meet so and so at the, at the library. 10 and I got to so-and-so and I wonder if those those documents are coming in today, you know, at mail call.

And then you start getting your name called at mail call, which is great. Yes. You know, and you get to order the, I need the docket sheet so I can write those letters. I mean, suddenly I had a purpose. Yes. My life had purpose. And, you know, and that's huge. I think that's, obviously, that's what gets you through, not just the time, you know,

hope and purpose, but if you have purpose, beat the crap out of the hope that something good was going to happen. And if I'd done all that time and just written, it was, it was, it was a, that purpose made the time so much easier. And then it also gave me the ability to think I can probably do something with this when I get out, whether I ever made any money at it or not. Like to making the money at you, I realized in prison that money was, to me, I was more happy in prison with nothing than I was, that I really been since I got out or prior to prison. It's interesting. When I began working on this blog with Michael, it wasn't to build a business or consult and a nonprofit. It was just like, you know, we're going to write something that would have helped me work with my lawyer or prepare for prison or sentencing. I just want to try to provide some value to the world for the first time and while. I want to contribute. The irony is by just trying to provide value and help and the responses that I got to change my entire life. That's how. this business exists 15 years later, it all started by sitting with Michael in a quiet room in prison and he'd go through this exercise and say, let's just stare at the wall and think of

something we can create today to provide value to the world even though you're in prison. And like you, like Michael, like me, just by creating, it helps people and it's allowed us to help people, sustain my family, pay my restitution in full, and be really proud of what I do. I'm not saying I didn't enjoy being a stockbroker, but this I feel we're having a real impact on the white collar advice side, helping mitigate, but really on the nonprofit side, the prison professor is helping influence millions of people in prisons and jails.

It all started because Michael said, how do we use this experience as an asset? You have like so many friends of, I look at so many people you've interviewed, so many of them are friends of mine. And I'm like, wow, it all started not to make money. How could I provide some value? Let this be an asset.

And that's advice I would have for anyone going, don't pretend it didn't happen. It did. We know you didn't have bad intentions, yet here we are somehow some way make this experience an asset in your life and I think that way the sentence doesn't amount to a life sentence right too many people it's 18 months it's two years and it defines the rest of their life it doesn't have to and I want everyone to embrace that same mindset I was going to say my my dad used to say if you just find something if you just if you're great

at something like he used to say one don't ever take a job for the money but you need to find something that you're great at and the money will come. Don't worry about. But to do that, you have to start and have that humility like you're going to work in a gym, me picking up phones. It ain't going to happen overnight, right? There are some people who will say like, oh, it's nice that, you know, I see you on TV and media.

It must be nice. It's like you can dismiss that is it's easy. I've been home for 15 years. Let's go back to the work alongside Michael in prison, coming home, getting thrown out of law offices. Weeks would go by. The phone would never ring. There was no YouTube or TikTok.

There was no media. you, Dr. Phil, others, it was all, oh, my God, I may never get another phone call. And I have no idea I'm going to pay my restitution this month, but still get up the next day at 4 a.m., create, blog, write, and film. That's what you have to do. There is no other way, in my opinion. And it takes, you have to be a little crazy, too, just to stick with it every single day, despite all the consequences that follow a felony conviction.

But what I later learned, of course, for a white collar guy, serving time in a minimum security camp, the easiest part of the sanction was time in a minimum security camp. It's clearly defined with the beginning and end. The hardest part was the three years waiting for sentencing, the reputational fallout, getting fired, losing your money, your friends abandoning you, and just being labeled a criminal or crook, which is totally inconsistent with the person I had lived throughout my life, or at least the way that I was raised. And I didn't know that when I got into trouble. I just said, I have to do everything I can to avoid prison, which meant I made decisions that ensured I ended up going to prison. It's kind of a sick irony, unfortunately.

Do you remember? Because I remember watching a documentary. This was when I was in like high school. And it was a Barry Mincow, sure, which was ZZZZ, Z, Z, Z, Carpet Cleaning. I probably have it wrong. I think it was was ZZZZZC carpet cleaning or Z ZZ something. He follows me on TikTok. He comments. Yeah, I've, I've interviewed him. I actually, he texts me, you know, we'll go a month or two without texting. And then he'll text me, you know, four or five. five times in a week. He actually sent me somebody the other day that she flew in and did a podcast. But you've never talked to Barry? I've never spoke with him, but I remember seeing his 60-minute clip. That's what I probably saw. This is back in like the 90s or something,

or 80s? Yep. Yes, I remember watching his case and seeing that 60-minute clips talking, people can change, we can all become better. And then I read a handful of years ago that I think there was an insider trading case. He got in trouble again and got maybe five years. Yeah, that's what killed me is I remember watching the, whatever it was, documentary, or maybe it was 60 minutes, and it was him, and he'd gone to prison and gotten out. And then I went to prison, whatever, 10 years later, I go to prison and I was reading an article about how he had gone to prison. I was like, oh, I remember this guy, got out, committed another fraud, went back to, and was on his way back to prison.

And I was like, this guy gets out, and now he's back to investigating companies. And I'll connect you. You should interview him. You know, you were interested in interviewing someone on, or interviewing, you interview people on your podcast. You should interview him. He's in Vegas. And he's great.

He's great. You like him. I'm interested in the good and bad, the success after prison, you know, stories. It's difficult to come home. I tell people I served one measly year in a minimum security camp, and I didn't go to prison with children. I wasn't married.

It was one year. I was young, 33. I would argue it's easier than if you're older. And it was difficult for me. So I put myself in the shoes of people who are married, who have children. The sentences are much longer, owe much more money.

And it can be really difficult to recalibrate. So I think we can learn from those who have done it both good and bad. It's not easy. Yeah, I had a guy. When I first got locked up, I'd only been locked up whether a few months. I was still in transit, and I had a roommate that kept getting mail.

I've told this story before, but he kept getting mail, and he would get the mail, and he'd look at the photos, there'd be photos, and he'd read the letter, and he'd just, just, he'd tear everything up into pieces, you know, and you'd throw it all away. And by the, like, the third day or something, I go, who keeps writing you? Like, you're getting letters every day. Like, he said, that's my ex-girlfriend. And I was like, I said, do you not, do you respond to her? like what's what and he is he said i said you're not going to keep the letters like and listen first

all he would he would say that's her he'd show me the picture and she was gorgeous and he was a good-looking guy and i said um you know i said do you respond her he said why is she writing you your ex-girlfriend he goes no no he said well because he says i've been in federal prison before because i did four years before i got out i met her we dated for about two years he said we were engaged he said i picked up this new charge um he said i'm getting the five year he's a five-year mandatory you know him. And he said, I'm going for five years. I might be out in four. He said, and she's saying she'll wait for me. He said, but I told her that's not possible. And I don't want her to do that. I wanted to find somebody else and go on. And if when I get out, she's, you know, she's available,

then we'll start seeing each other again. He says, and she's just not accepting it. She's writing me every day. She's sending photos. She's trying to convince me differently. I'm like, well, maybe she will wait. He said, no, no. He said, listen, he said, the hardest thing for you to do is go to prison with a wife or a girlfriend and family on the outside. He said, it makes your time a thousand times more difficult. He said, I don't want to be that guy on the phone Saturday morning saying, why didn't you answer the phone last night? Where were you?

Or my buddy's calling me or my buddy talking to me on the phone and said, yo, bro, I saw your girl out at the club with some guy. He said, I can't go through that. He said, so I broke it off and that's it. He said, it's better that way. I remember, you know, there was like, I was thinking to myself, you know, oh, that's horrible. That's like, oh, I think, I thought that was a mistake. But then you go to, then you were locked up a year or so and you start realizing, no, that was the right call.

He was, the guys that didn't have a family were lucky, you know, they were lucky because you can't, it's so hard for these guys. You ever see these guys try and parent from inside? It's horrible. It's agony. They do, they do, they have 10 times harder of a time than some guy who has no family. Because you're trying to be a parent to your kids and you're trying to be, you know, you're trying to still be a husband and like, you know, it's such a one-sided relationship. It just sucks.

It takes, it's really hard work to nurture a relationship on the inside. I saw a number of people do it. My partner, Michael Santos, got married with 11 years left and his wife Carol followed them all across the country. But he nurtured it. They wrote letters. They visited. They planned and worked every day for their inevitable release.

And a lot of guys used to tell Michael, like, oh, when you come, you know, Michael's very handsome, very fit, very strong, and he's, oh, you're going to, you know, you've been in prison for 26 years. You're going to have all these opportunities to date. You're going to divorce and sleep with all these women. He said, we're together in this. And you impeach my character by insinuating, I would be unfaithful. We are serving this prison term together. It's harder on her than it is me. I'm conditioned to prison. I can, so I've seen it go both ways where it can be difficult and terrible or it can be nurtured appropriately. And now he's been home for 10 years. They're still married and thriving. So it just, like anything, it requires discipline. It's really hard work.

It's really, yeah, I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm saying it's extremely difficult and you have to be extremely, just like parenting your child. You see these guys, I'm not saying don't try. I'm saying it's hard. It's hard. You got to really have a plan. You have to lay it out. You have to lay out a plan and, you know. Well, one thing you find in prison, I recall my first visit, my parents are there. They're devastating. I'm serving just one year. And I'm thinking, how were my parents enduring or handling this? And then you see someone serving five years for a Ponzi schemer, a white-collar crime. I think of someone named Adam, who was in my dorm.

And he had two young children. At the end of the visit, it's like right out of a movie, the children are holding on to the ankles, right? And the visit's over, and he's going back to the prison and the family's driving in a totally different direction. And I immediately find perspective like, this is hard for my parents. I'm going to be home in 10 months, right? He has two young children.

He's got four years left to serve. So that perspective is crucial for anyone going through a bad experience. Someone certainly has it worse, and that helped me get through some really tough days. Yeah, I was going to say, and what's great is that the BOP makes it so easy. They work so hard to make sure that you have a comfortable situation. They won't shut down a visit if one prisoner holds his wife's hand too long. They're not going to ruin it for everyone. Or they're not going to send someone to the hole.

If, God forbid, that prisoner takes $4 out of their mom's wallet to go get her a Coca-Cola and a cheesecake. They say prisoners cannot touch money. That's it. The visit's over. People make mistakes. It's all about preparing offenders for re-entry. I love when you read on like the website. It's like, you know, they have a whole thing. We're like, no, no, we try. We encourage. We encourage you to have family visit. We encourage you. I never saw any encouragement. Well, what's interesting is it's actually getting better. So because Michael went to prison in 1987 for such a long period of time, he's been able to see progress and growth with the BOP. I mean, even the first step back that Trump signed in 18

that Michael and other people have been advocating for for so long, this idea of incentivizing excellence. Rather than just calendar pages turning, maybe we can earn our way home through merit and programming and demonstrating that we can be a law-abiding citizen. So when people come into the system now, they're like, it's terrible. It's awful, and it can be, but they then learn, like, it used to be much worse.

It's actually getting a little better with earned time credits. It's actually making some improvements. But when people come into the system, they just, they don't focus on that. They focus on the immediate, this is terrible, this is awful. But it has gotten so much better from even when I went to prison in 2008. Back then, on the length of my sentence, my case manager called me and she said, you have an 18-month sentence. You're going to get two to three months in the halfway house.

It didn't matter if I programmed and rode all day or if I watched the Kardashians and sons of anarchy all day. It didn't matter. Now, if you earn time credits in building, a case manager will say, well, you've earned it. I don't think you're going to be at risk on the other side. I'm going to put you in for 12 months in the halfway house. When I was on the inside, it would have been three. So it's gotten so much better. But when people come in, they don't see that because they don't have anything to compare it to.

Yeah, I was going to say after I did the art app, I didn't pass it. But I actually did it twice. And then just before it, I did it so that I could get the management variable so they wouldn't move me. So I would go through like six months and then I drop out. Then I did it again for like seven months and dropped out. But going through that program, I've, I mean, since going through it, I've always said, and my wife went through it, is that I think everybody should have to go through that program. Or at least it doesn't, first of all, that program has nothing to do with drugs. There's almost nothing to do with drugs.

It's really just criminal thinking. But it's like if they made everybody go through that and gave them an incentive to finish it, even if people fake, even if you faked your way through the program, you'd still learn something because you'd be shocked. I mean, I know you didn't go through it. But if you went through it and you were sitting in those meetings with these guys, you would realize, like, you're talking to like 80%, 90% of the guys sitting there. They're the books that they have you going through and the exercises they have you doing where you're thinking out and you're making plans and you're thinking out your decisions and the ramifications from your decisions, like 90% of the guys, it's completely foreign to. You're talking to these guys, and they're like, if this happened, what would you do? And their first reaction is, you know, I do this, I do that. And they're like, well, wait a minute, let's think this through.

And they kind of teach them, you know, rational thinking, right, how to go through. And you realize after nine months, they've got, well, really after about two, three months, they've got it down. They understand, I probably shouldn't do that. This could be the react. Oh, this could. So it's just shocking how many of these guys, like it's just normal. What you and I would go, well, that's. you don't think that like you don't that's not how your mind works it just doesn't it doesn't work like

that for them we've had some people in the white color advice community who have MBAs who've made billions of dollars who went through RDAP and said everyone should go through this program right this is a phenomenal program I would have done it irrespective of the the time off we've had people try to pursue and actually complete the program and be told by the drug coordinator you are not getting the time off and it's like it's okay so if the motives are there and you want to learn and you're open to it I would say nearly 100% of people in our community who have gone through it. I've really enjoyed it. Now, I know some go into it thinking, I'm going to get this time off six nine or 12 months, sure,

but the benefits of it have been immeasurable. So I encourage people if they're eligible, don't lie, don't make up that you have some issue. Don't try to con your way into the program. But if there's legitimately an issue, disclose it. And you can really benefit from the program. I've only heard great things. Yeah, I was going to say, even and guys are always like, yeah, I'm a fake my way through. Fake it through. That's fine. There's no way you can fake it through. You know,

you're going to learn something. You're going to benefit somehow you're going to benefit, even if it's your fake it. Because, you know, a lot of the street guys are like, yeah, I'm going to fake it through. You're still going to figure something. You're going to learn something. And you'd be shocked how many people by the end of the program have completely changed their way of thinking. And the other thing is, like, I never went, it was easy for me because I used to say, well, the first six months, they're just trying to get you to say thank you and please. and use a fork when you eat you know what I'm saying like this is not difficult it's those last two or three months where someone who's like a fraudster or a con man that's when they come for you

and I used because I knew so many guys that would go into the program and the last three months like they'd be like this is a joke this is a breeze and then the last two months you'd see them walking around stressing out they're like you don't understand man like this is because it's the last few months when they come for the guys that are manipulators sure so I got lucky I never had to do the last few months of the minute and I knew Oh, they're going to kill me. Because I've seen them carrying people apart. So it's easy at first.

But even at some point, it wouldn't be, wouldn't matter if you had the master's degree. At the last few months, they're going to come for people that are instinctive manipulation or manipulators like myself. And they're going to come for you and you're going to be dismantled and torn down and rebuilt. And it's going to help you. It's at least going to help you identify what's wrong with you. you. Well, you say manipulation, by the way, I don't see that in you. I've been with you for three days now. I read the profile on YouTube. It says, I'm Matt Cox and I'm a con man. I don't see it. I think you've changed. I think I'm just very, very, you know, very subtle. Colby says he's like, yeah, you're too hard

on yourself. Well, I'll tell you what I've learned. So many people who come into the system. So I know we'll talk about it. I prepared terribly. I didn't do anything to mitigate. I was the dude who was very vulnerable. Some lawyer could say they could help me. I'm like, oh, here's my credit card. I don't care what it costs and what the interest rate is, you can keep me out of prison. So we're very vulnerable. So I didn't prepare, and a number of people begin preparing, they think it's too late. So we talk about the drug program, for example, about a month ago, someone called, they had already been sentenced, so that means they've already had the probation report, and they learn about this program because it's covered online, right? It's a buzzword in my industry. You want to

year off your sentence, call me. Yeah. So I tell people, every phone call I have, I pretend like the FBI's listening, because there were some people in this industry that went to prison for conning people to get into the drug program. So I pretend every phone call I have is recorded. In fact, every sales call our team does is recorded. So we know exactly what you're going to do, exactly what our team is going to do. And someone said, I was sentenced to five years in prison. I just learned about this program. I'm really rich. I've got to do whatever I can to get into it. Whatever I can do to get into the program, whatever I need to say, I'll give you 100 grand. And that's what I'm thinking to myself, I'm glad that every phone call I have, I pretend that Paul Bertrand, the FBI agent who

arrested me, who was a good buddy who I just had on our weekly webinar. I'm going to pretend that Paul Bertrand is listening to everything that I'm going to say right now. This video will be, this will be played. This is going to be on the White Collar Advice YouTube channel. And then it ensures that I'm never going to respond in a way at 50 like I did when I was 28 and I turned the other way and I made decisions that sent my dumb ass to jail for 18 months. So because at the end of the day, what good is 100 grand today or 500 grand today if it is to your long term detriment and cost you everything? I think that way at 50. I didn't think that way at 28.

Yeah. I, I, I, I, when I went to my, um, pre-sentence report with the probation officer, and they said, um, do you have a drug problem? I said, do I? Yes, I do. I'm addicted to opiates. In fact, I need to take a break and go do some. I'd already gotten, I'd already gotten a whole lesson from the opiate guys that, you know, this is what happens when you detox, do your bones hurt? You're like, I had a whole, yes, I knew what blues were, what greens were. Like, I had a whole breakdown from these guys. And this guy, all he said was, oh, okay.

And he marked it down. And I didn't need to know any of that. But yeah, I completely. It's gotten harder because you have cynical drug coordinator. So you'll say, okay, you got a 33-month sentence. You only said you have a drug or alcohol problem because you want to get this time off. So even if it's in the PSR, even if the judge recommends it and you're in a prison that offers this program, you have these cynical drug coordinator. So the more evidence you have, documentation, going to counseling, things like that are a good idea.

Yeah, because they're just not going to give you a year. off your son. You're very likable, but that doesn't mean they're just going to give you a year off because they like you. When I went in for my, after being locked up, I was locked up or whatever, like nine years or 10 years by the time I, more like 11 or 12, by the time I actually went in the drug program, and you meet with the team. As soon as I sat down and talked to them for even a few minutes, it was Dr. Smith. She was running the program. And she said, she has a PhD, by the way. I want to mention she had a Ph.D.

Because I've never had a conversation with her where she didn't tell me. She had a Ph.D. And she almost prefaced every single interaction with anybody that she had a PhD. She's very proud of the PhD. So that, by the way, before you finish it, reminds me some of the guys in prison who every time they've found a way to tell you, the money they made, the deals they did, the private jet they flew on, the cars they drove. It was before they said anything, those caveats to get out of the way. Yeah. So she, but after talking to me for five or five or six minutes, she was like, okay, well, I don't think you really have a drug problem. And I remember just thinking, fuck. And she said, but I definitely think you need this program. And I was like, she said, so I want to put you in the next. And I remember thinking, like, that's, that's weird. Like I thought it was a drug program. But then when you go through the drug program, you realize like, we almost never talk about drugs. Like it's not. It's all. It's all. It's. It's. It's a behavior modification program.

It just teaches you how to think more clearly and think out your decisions and realize what the ramifications of they're gonna be on you and society and your family. And really, it's just an amazing program. Hey, you guys, I appreciate you watching the video. Do me a favor, hit the subscribe button,

share the video, hit the bell so you get notified of videos like this. Also, we are going to leave all of Justin's links in the description box, white collar advice.com. You can go there, you can go and sign up for the free webinar. They're not gonna try and sell you anything. They just kind of tell you what you need to do to prepare yourself for sentencing. And I appreciate you guys watching. Please consider joining our Patreon.

It's $10 a month. It really does help Colby and I make these videos. Really appreciate it. Thank you very much. See you.