Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - My Experience Inside And Why I Ultimately Left The Mormon Church...

Episode Date: March 23, 2026

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Hey, I'm Seth Shackner. Check out my new show, Breaking Down the Biz. Every week, I sit down with people who actually make movies, music, and media happen. Executives from Sony, Universal, Apple, NBC. Together, we cut through industry jargon and hype to show you how the business is built. What's key to making everything come together and why it matters to you. From iTunes impact on the music industry to the advent of AI, from the Taylor Swift ticket sales fiasco, to Bad Bunny's Meteoric rise, We break down the stories, the numbers, and the negotiations that shape the industry. I've been in the trenches of the entertainment industry for several decades with leadership roles at companies like Sony, Paramount, and Jive Records. My guests and I are going to provide the same thoughtful, concise insights that I'm trusted to bring on TV networks like CNN and NBC surrounding the industry and its culture-defining

moments. We'll touch on the business of music, filmmaking, and streaming, and the emerging technology of our time. If you've ever wondered what really happens behind the scenes of the entertainment business, this is a bite-sized insider guide. Subscribe now on your favorite podcast platform or watch us on YouTube so you never miss a beat. Let's make sense of this industry together. He was arrested for writing bad banknotes, selling magic rocks and crystals.

He was a con artist. This is literally how every cult starts. Every cult is started by... So I was born into a very devout, warm... family. My parents are still devout. Some of my sisters are still devout. Most of my cousins and aunts and uncles and everyone else is still devout. So when I left, it caused a little bit of heartache. But growing up in the church in the 70s and 80s was a lot different than it is now. It's always hard to know how much detail I want to go into. There's a lot of conversation right now

in Mormonism about bishop's interviews. So when you're a kid, you have somebody that is assigned to be, when you're a Mormon, you have someone that's assigned to be the bishop of the ward. And it can be like the guy that owns the tire store or the UPS driver. And the church regional directors supposedly are inspired by God to call who they want to be the bishop. And when you're a kid, you have to have bishops interviews. You have to go in and talk to the bishop and he asks you questions. you're alone with this man in this room who can just be like I say a school teacher you know anybody my dad's been a bishop several times and most of these men are very good men I always it breaks my heart

a little bit when I see people really bashing the church because the church is they everyone always focuses on the bad people in every situation you know that I don't have to tell you that I'm Catholic so a hundred percent there can be you know 10,000 good people and 1,000 people that are not not so good or even a hundred people that are not so good. And that's what gets all the focus. And it's the same way in Mormonism. Well, growing up, I was a wild, kind of a wild child. I've always had a very loud voice. I'm, you know, I sing and I was a performer. And I was a little boy crazy. And the bishops knew that about me. And they knew I was one of those girls that they could maybe ask a few questions to, you know, that, you know, that, the bishops,

were not appropriate to be asking a child. Some bishops never did this, but I had two, in particular, from the time I was a little girl until the time I was older, that would ask very inappropriate questions. You know, are you kissing boys? Are you using your tongue? Are you know, and even farther than that. And they would use the word back then the word, this word makes my skin crawl. They would use the word petting. Oh, oh, I just hate that word. But that was the word that they used. I don't know that came from your culture too, but what is pet what is petting? Petting is like fondling each other like first base, second base type of that was the word that they used was petting and it just makes my skin crawl. But and I thought in my mind it was like even as a little

kid I was like this doesn't feel right. Like I know there's something this isn't right. Like my dad wouldn't ask me these questions. You know, my mom wouldn't ask me these questions. So why is this strange man asking me these questions? And as I got a little bit older, the I don't know how familiar you are with the Joseph Smith story or the origins of the church. I mean, I have a very basic understanding that he found these plates and they were the gold plates and he only he could read them. And so I have a, you know, and that's how the book of Mormon was written by him transcribing the plates. Yes. Right. And in the church you're taught that there's only that he told one story and it was that he went into the woods to pray.

as a 14-year-old boy and that God and Jesus, who in Mormonism, God and Jesus are not the same person. Mormons don't believe in the Godhead. So God and Jesus are different people. God and Jesus appeared to Joseph Smith and told him, none of the churches on earth are true. And you have been chosen to start the true church. I don't ever mean to be disrespectful, but I just have to giggle a little bit because this is literally how every cult starts. Every cult is started by a man who says God speaks to him and only him and that no one else is right and he is the only one with the full truth. Right. So Joseph goes into the woods and then later on he, you know, he comes out and the story goes

that an angel appears to him and tells him that there are these ancient golden plates buried in the hill and leads him to these gold plates. Now, Joseph Smith never imagined the internet. He never imagined science. He never imagined what would come later on. If the golden plates were to actually have existed, they would have weighed, I think almost a thousand pounds. It would have been for there to be enough gold there to write out what was written.

There's a story of him picking the plates up, wrapping them in a dish cloth, and then running from people that were trying to take them from him. It would not have been possible. So even if they were real, which I do not believe they were, he would not have been able to run with these plates. Now, as a child growing up in the 70s and 80s, I was taught that Joseph Smith used a tool called the Yerum and Thumbum. And it's basically a pair of spectacles and like a breastplate. And he would put these spectacles on and read the golden plates and these spectacles would translate from the ancient language into English.

That is actually not what Joseph Smith told people. That is a whitewashed version of the church because the church doesn't like what Joseph Smith said. Joseph Smith told people, and there are actual versions of this and documentation of this, that he had a magic rock. And he would put the golden plates on the table in front of him with a screen. So the person's transcribing could not see the golden plates because only he was allowed to see them. He would take this magic rock and put it in the bottom of a top hat. and you can find paintings of this online and then put his face into the top hat and the rock would glow

and would show him in English what the translation was. So as the church grew, the church decided that story was just a little too crazy. And so they came up with the Urim and Thumum and that was the story that was then spread. Joseph Smith was a folk magic believer. And if you know anything about that time, it's not unusual. But it is unusual to believe in those things now. He also was arrested dozens of times for telling people he was a water witch that he had this special power by God where, you know, he would hold the, I can't remember what they call it. It's like a stick that looks like a why.

Yeah, yeah. And the stick drops down and points to our waters in the ground. And he was arrested many times for swindling people and telling them that he could find water on their property. that was a big deal back then to have a well on your property. He was arrested for writing bad bank notes. He was arrested for selling magic rocks and crystals. He was a con artist. He was a folk magician, you know, and the church doesn't like that origin story.

And so they changed it. The other thing that the church changed, and I did not find this out until much later on in my adulthood, is that Joseph Smith actually told 12 different versions. 10 or 12, depending on who you ask, different versions of what is called the first vision. And that is when he goes into the woods and God and Jesus appear to him. First, he said it was a pillar of fire. Then it was an angel. Then it was an angel and God.

Then it was God and a pillar of fire. He tells all these different versions. And the version that the church teaches is not a version that he actually told. So when I got about 14 years old and I was already kind of in trouble at school sometimes and stuff, I just was a bad kid. Later on, I was diagnosed with ADD and high functioning autism. And I just didn't know how to act in school. And I remember going to church one Sunday.

And there was a kid in our ward. He lived across the street from me named Sean Williams. He passed on in a very tragic accident years later. But I used him as an example. And they were telling this story. And I said, so if Sean went into the woods, went into Cedar Mountain and said he saw God and Jesus and came back down off the mountain and told us all that he is the one and only true prophet and we all have to follow him, you guys would laugh at him. And I remember my Sunday school

teacher's face like the color kind of drained out of his face and he stood up and grabbed me by my arm and yanked me out into the hall and he was a great big bear of a man and stood over me like, you know, pointing down at me. I just, I remember his face being right in my face. How dare you compare Sean to the profit and how dare you question this story and how dare you this. And it was just this kind of breakthrough moment for me that just it never left me. I just was like, oh, okay, I'm not allowed to question anything. I'm not allowed to to theorize or say what if this happened again or it's keep your mouth shut, tow the line and keep your head down, do the work and don't ask questions.

and I'm not wired that way. And as I grew, it just got worse and worse. I just thought, wait a minute, let me get this straight. So having sex before marriage is bad, which is what you're taught in Mormonism. But Joseph was married and then he started having sex with all these other women. So he would send these men on missions if he was attracted to their wives, ship them off to England and then start boinking their wife. and his wife found out about it. And then all of a sudden, oh, it was because he had a revelation.

God told him he was supposed to have more wives. He was supposed to have engage in polygamy. So that's how he talked his way around getting caught with like 14-year-old girls in the barn. You know, he was classically, this makes people very angry when you say it when they're in the church. He was a pedophile. They want to say things were different. then people got married younger back then 30 mid 30 year old men having sex with a 14 year old girl was never accepted in america that was never a thing um the other thing that i really

always had a problem with was the word of wisdom mormons are told not to drink coffee or tea but they guzzled diet coke and coke and you know in in utah i don't know if you've heard here but we have these soda shops now have you heard about the soda shops m-mm-mm you are you would die. Everywhere you go on every corner, swig, gulp, fizz, bubbles, you know, they have all different kinds of names. And it's just giant 64 ounce sodas pumped full of like vanilla syrup and coconut syrup and, you know, red bowls. And so it, because Mormons don't drink alcohol, these are their versions of cocktails. But, but they don't understand, but they don't want you to drink tea or why? Why? Here is the real answer.

to that question. So my way I brought this up was, as I grew, I kept asking this question over and over and no one could answer for me. And the reason is there's not an answer. The answer is something they don't want to talk about. Joseph Smith was a tobacco chewer. He had a plug of tobacco in his lip at all times and he also liked to smoke pipes and cigars. Every time he had a priesthood meeting after he formed the church, the men would gather and congregate at Joseph's house and spit their tobacco on the the floor. His wife, Emma, his first wife, would then have to clean it up. So she told Joseph, I am banning all tobacco from the house. Well, Joseph loved, I'm sorry, Emma loved coffee and tea. She was a coffee drinker, a tea drinker, and she had several times a day she would have tea time,

just like, you know, her ancestors were from England. So she was used to having tea. So Joseph said, well, if you're going to take away my tobacco, I'm taking away your coffee and tea. And all of a sudden, then there was a revelation. These revelations are very convenient, a revelation that Mormons could no longer drink coffee and tea. So the word of wisdom came about over a domestic dispute. That's why there's no answer. That's why there's no answer as to why Mormons can drink tons and tons of Coke and diet Coke,

but not drink coffee, which is better for you than Coke. Right. The word of wisdom also says that you should not eat meat unless in times of famine. but the Mormons don't want to talk about that. You know how religious people like to cherry pick their scriptures and the parts they're going to listen to and the parts they don't. It also says no meat except in times of famine, but they don't pay attention to that.

So I struggled with that as I got older. And then as was my duty as the bishop's daughter, I got knocked up in high school. They always joke, you know, that the bishop's daughters are the wildest kids. I got pregnant when I was seven. My first husband was 23 at the time. So we got married. I dropped out of school.

I was the drill master on the drill team at the time. I was the, you know, involved in all kinds of school activities, had this whole future planned out and laid out for me. And suddenly I was a 17-year-old with a baby. And I dragged my husband to church with me. He had never really gone. He's what we call inactive. He was a member of the church, but wasn't raised in the church.

He didn't go to church. So then we went through the temple. And I don't know how much you know about the Mormon temple. Have you seen any of the videos online? No. It's like the temple is like the church, right? No, the church is where you go every Sunday for church meetings. The temple is where you're only allowed to go.

If you have a temple recommend. Now, this is also a very important hallmark of a cult. A cult always has an unquestioning leader at the top that you cannot you cannot go against, you cannot backtalk them. You cannot ask questions of them. Another hallmark of a cult is that there is always a segment of glory, deification or superiority that not all members have access to. And Mormonism is very much a cult in this way. In order to go to the temple, you have to be a full tithe payer. So you have to give 10% of your gross, not your net, income to the church. You know the Mormon church has like $160 billion.

Yes, it does. This just came out a few years ago. The church, the internet for the Mormon church has been very, very bad. If you sleep hot at night, you know how disruptive that can be. Whether you're having trouble falling asleep, you're waking up sweating in the middle of night or all of the above. That's where ghost bed can help. As the makers of the coolest beds in the world, ghost bed is your go-to for cooling mattresses, cooling pillows, and cooling bedding. From their signature ghost ice fabric to patented technology that adjusts to your body's temperature, every ghost bed mattress is designed with cooling in mind. So whether you want a plusher mattress that cushions your shoulders and hips, or a firm option with exceptional support,

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or celibate if you're single. You have to be straight. You have to be no alcohol, no coffee, no tea, church every Sunday. You have to be completely devout. Mormonism is not your religion. is your life. You are a Mormon before you are anything else. You are Mormon before you're a wife, a husband, a son, a daughter, a doctor. You are Mormon first. So we go to the temple and people kind of tried to prepare me for what it was going to be like. I'm sure your viewers and you probably know a little bit about Freemasonry. Right. Okay. So Joseph Smith was very into studying Freemasonry and he took a lot of the things that happened in the temple from Freemasonry. So you go in and you can watch this all online now.

People have gone in with hidden cameras and recorded this whole thing. And you have to understand. I was told growing up that if you ever shared what went in the temple, there were signs that you do in the temple. You stand in the temple. It says, if I ever reveal the secrets of the temple and you make a sign from here to here that your throat will be cut from ear to ear, that you will be gutted from breastbone to pubic bone.

And then there are other penalties that they, they tell you will happen to you if you ever talk about what goes on in the temple. And they've since taken that out of the ceremony because it got online and they did not want people seeing that. You wear all white clothing. You watch a movie that has to do with the Garden of Eden and how Satan came to be. You put on these strange hats for the men and the women veil their faces. The women sit on one side of the room. The men sit on the other side of the room. And then at the end, you are given what's called signs and tokens. The very first time you ever go to the temple, they give you your own name.

And they tell you that when you meet God in heaven, God will not ask you what your earthly name was. God will ask you for your name. And they tell you your name. And they tell you it's very secret. And to this day, I still have a really hard time saying mine because it's just so drilled into your head. But I was given the name of Leah. And you go to a curtain and there's a man standing behind the curtain and his hand comes through a slit. in the curtain. And he takes your hand and impresses upon your hand, his thumb here, his finger here,

and there's different handshakes that are supposed to represent where the nails were put in Christ's hands at his crucifixion and other signs. But they are really just the same signs as Freemasonry. There's a very famous photo of George Bush shaking Thomas Monson's hand when Thomas Monson was in the the first presidency. And they are holding each other's hands in a very unusual way. And that is because George Bush was a Freemason and Thomas Monson was a Mormon and they both know the same handshakes. So the significance of Leah. Very, very good question, Matthew. It's supposed to be divinely inspired by God. Do you know what it is? Everyone who went to the temple on Tuesdays was Leah. Wednesdays was Virginia. Thursdays.

It was Jessica. So you're told that this is a divinely inspired name that is given only to you. And you're not supposed to talk about any of this stuff with other people. But then you find out later there were roles and dates printed on a calendar and your name was just given to you depending on whatever day you happen to go through the temple on the first time. Not very divinely inspired. Not very divinely inspired and not very magical. You know, there's a lot of magical belief. there's a lot of magical thinking in Mormonism.

And so, you know, I go to the temple. It is not what I expected. My dad tried to handle it with humor, as he always does. He's great. And he said, don't be surprised if you see pizzas flying through the air at one point. And I was like, what? And then I see the men get out these hats. There are like a cardboard baker's hat and put him on.

And I was like, dad. I like, it was all I could do not to start laughing. My dad's, he's great. But it was strange. And we went home and my ex-husband was quiet. the way home in the car and we got home and he took his suit off and he looked at me and he said don't ever ask me to do that again and we never he never went back i did but he didn't um so other question did you ever see this series big love i've seen a few episodes of big love yes i have

it are they supposed to be mormon i don't know if they're supposed to be mormon or not um i think there's a misconception in mainstream society The polygamous that exist now are not Mormons, mainstream Mormons. They are members of what is called the Fundamentalist Latter-day Saint Church, the FLDS. So when you see, if you see pictures like about 40 minutes from where I'm sitting right now, you drive out to Colorado City. Everyone's dressed like it's the 1800s. The women have these big poofy bangs with French braids.

The men are in cowboy Western shirts. genes but you know i mean they have iPhones and stuff now but they didn't use to um they believe they are the real Mormons they believe mainstream Mormons are wrong because mainstream Mormons stopped practicing polygamy so um the FLDS are not what was portrayed in big love they had like jobs and stuff right yes yes so that they would not be considered Mormon no just maybe like sister wives you know that Cody that weird Cody guy that has different wives I don't know that he considers himself a Mormon on that show's sister wives. He's just a polygamist.

But the Mormon polygamists are different. Oh, okay. Sorry. It's Big Love, which first aired in 2016, whatever. So I'd Bill Paxton as a member of the fictional breakaway Mormon sect. Okay. There's a fictional breakaway Mormon sect. That doesn't exist.

That makes sense. Three wives and eight children, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. That makes sense. It was good. I've heard a lot of people say that it was good. Sometimes that stuff is a little triggering for me. I'm not a big fan.

I think triggers are overused and I'm not a big fan of like, I think you're responsible for your own triggers. You know, I'm not a big fan of giving trigger warnings and stuff on my channel. I'm like, it's a true crime channel. What the hell do you think? you're going to be talking here. But it is a little triggering for me. I have a hard time with some of that stuff because it's so close to home.

I mean, when I go to Walmart, if I leave here, we finish here and I go to Walmart today, I will see polygamists in my Walmart. They believe all the same things that Mormon do, with the exception, Mormons do with the exception of polygamy. They still practice polygamy. The mainstream Mormon church did away with polygamy because the federal government said, if Utah wants to become a state and get statehood, you have to do away with polygamy because it's immoral. And that is the one and only reason the Mormons did away with polygamy. If the federal

government had not made that happen, we'd still be practicing polygamy today. They seem very malleable. You know what I'm saying? It's not like, you know what I'm saying? They're very, like it's like, this is our rules. What? We don't have to stick with that one. We can give up that one. Like they're, they're willing to make some changes for the betterment of, of the overall of the church. And that's new. Yeah. That's new. I was taught, there's a scripture that says, he is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

And I was always taught the doctrine of the church does not change and the gospel does not change. But oh, wait, we've got to let black men have the priesthood in 1978 because we're getting a lot of pressure on that. Black men were not allowed to have the priesthood until 19. 78. Not 1888, not 1878, not 1878, 1978. Right. So they changed for that. Then all of a sudden, it was well, you know, we're not getting as many missionaries as we used to get. And two years is a long time to go on a mission and be gone when you're 20-something years old. So we're going to change it to 18 months. And then we used to go to church.

When I was growing up, you went to church for two hours on Sunday morning. You went home and had lunch and then you went back for two hours in the afternoon. Well, they started to notice. Yeah. Well, and then you had in the middle of the week, you had young women's and young men's and mutual and relief society parties and it's your life. And then they started to notice a lot of people aren't coming back for that afternoon session.

So we're going to make it a block, a three-hour block. So I then, through all my adulthood, I left the church when I was about 38. All through my adulthood, I went to church for three hours on Sunday. And then about a year ago, they said, we're noticing a real dropping member. here. We're going to go to two hours. Yeah. Now, last week, they announced that the garments that Mormons wear, now only Mormons that go to the temple wear garments. You've seen the garments, the underwear? Yeah. Okay. So now they've changed the garments for women. When I was in the church, my garments hit me

about right here. You're not allowed to wear tank tops, spaghetti straps, strapless dresses, crop tops, anything like that. They go past your belly. You can't show anything. And now they've just come out with one that you could maybe wear a tank top with. And they've said all along the garments will never change. Well, the garments used to be long-sleeved and go all the way to your ankles. So they've changed the garments a bunch of times too. So things do change. And that also bothered me. That that was like, hmm, I grew up with these rules being told this. And now all of a sudden, it's changed and it's different. So which is it? And they're modernizing, keeping up with times.

Yeah, yeah. I have a feeling that Joseph Smith would have done the same. I don't disagree. I mean, I think he would have been like, he was smart con man. He got to wait, wait a minute. Yeah. God just told me we're going with this new fashion. We're going to back a little bit.

Yep. The game's on. We don't have to go four hours on Sunday. That's crazy. It's football season. Oh, you should be around the Mormons when BYU used to be. way you doesn't play on Sunday, but there was a time where this was a big uproar and a big controversy. But yeah, football is, football's a big deal. It causes a lot of problems, causes a lot of bishops interviews for those men that seem to be sneaking out early.

Yeah. Hmm. Hmm. So, so, I was. I was always a square peg in a round hall in the church. My job did not lend itself to being a good Mormon. I spent my weekends in smoky dive bars and casinos and clubs that most people probably wouldn't even go into. That was your job?

I'm a professional singer. Oh, okay. Yeah. And I put out an album in the late 90s. This was right as I was getting divorced. and I've been with my husband now since 1997. I put out an album and I got picked up by Sarah McClockland to do the Lilith Fair tour. Those of us that are ancient will remember.

And then I got put on kind of a satellite circuit to all of those big artists and kind of toured around with a lot of those artists. And I had a record deal presented to me by Third Rail Records. It was a subsidiary of Hollywood at the time. They brought me down to Los Angeles. sat me down and said, you know, we're going to give you this half million dollar record deal. And I called my bishop. That's how, that's how in, in I was. I don't like to use the word brainwash because I think it's disrespectful to people that are still in the church, but there are

people that use that word. And my bishop said, how are you going to be a good mom? And that really broke my heart. And he said, how are you going to be a good Mormon? And I didn't care so much about that, but the mom thing really hurt me. And so I didn't sign the record deal. At the time, time I was with Gwen Stefani and no doubt almost every night and they went this way and I went this way. And, you know, they stayed on tour and I went home and they blew up and I was back home running my husband's construction company. So who knows what would have happened. But that's that's how in I was. I called my bishop for advice, you know. And then my husband and I grew through the church. We ended up going to the temple together.

New husband. My husband now, my second husband. He was raised in Las Vegas until he was about 12. My husband is a in tennis. They don't call it AAA tennis. They call it satellite tennis. You go on the satellite circuit. So he played, he went to Missou on a tennis scholarship. And then he got picked up on the satellite circuit. Same time, Andre Auguste did. So he played a lot with Andre Auguste as like his tennis partner, things like that. And then he kind of aged out of it. He wasn't good enough to go pro. He had been on the satellite circuit for a while his parents had moved back to Missouri because I don't know if you know the lore in Mormonism, but Jesus is coming to Missouri. Did you know that? Did you know that? No, I didn't get that email tickets, Matthew, because Jesus is coming to Missouri. When you know when? Well, whenever Jesus

decides to come back, the second coming, it's going to be in Missouri because Missouri, according to Mormons is where the Garden of Eden was. Okay. Yeah, yeah. It's very American religion, huh? Oh, it is the only true American religion. I mean, besides all the cults, you know, that pop up here and there. But the reason Mormonism survived is because of the isolation. Joseph Smith made so many people mad. I mean, he tried to kill the governor, you know, and they put him in prison, and then he tried to break out of prison. And then when he tried to break out of prison, he was shot and murdered. So then he became a martyr. So then Brigham Young, his successor, picked the Mormons up and moved him to Utah. And in the isolation with no exposure to anything else, any cult will grow. I mean,

when they tell you to have 15 kids, and then 15 kids have 15 kids and you're isolated for 50 years, that cult is obviously going to grow. And that is the reason Mormonism survived where so many other folk magic cults and things like that did not. It was surely due to the isolation. will tell you it's because it's the truth and truth always endures. But that's not what I believe. Well, yeah, the United States has never been invaded too. That's another. We could definitely go into that. Yeah. Well, I was going to say we're also the United States. We're isolated. It's pretty hard to.

We are. We are very much so. So, okay. So you're you're married to the second husband and, and what, But is there, I mean, you've turned down a record deal. Yeah. What happens then? So before I married my second husband, when I was just like 19 years old, my ex-husband my ex-husband moved me from Cedar City, Utah to St. George. There's about 45 miles difference. And I got down here and I needed a job.

And I thought, you know, I'm a good dancer. I'm going to start a dance school. So I opened a little dance school, started out with like 20 girls from the neighborhood. And within a year, I had 500 students. And so I had this big dance school and I started going to these dance conventions. And I found out what homosexuality was. I did not know growing up in southern Utah what a gay man was. I did not know.

I was probably 20 years old. I went to a dance convention. And I knew there were a couple of friends I had in high school. The boys were a little feminine and, you know, had the flock of seagull's hair or the trench coats or the new wave stuff or whatever. But I had no idea what gay was. And so I started going to these conventions and I made friends with a lot of gay men. And I found out how terribly gay men are treated in our society. And I became an activist in the not only the queer rights community, but also civil rights community.

And the more the activist in me came out, the less I could stay in the church. It got harder and harder from me. And then one day in 2006 or seven, they had what's called the Joy. meeting. Normally the women go to Relief Society and the men go to priesthood on Sunday after sacrament meeting. So everybody goes to sacrament meeting takes the sacrament, then you break off into groups. Well, today we had a joint meeting. This is a, Mormonism is, I call it a, we call it in the community the highest of the high demand religions. It is the hardest outside of being Amish perhaps to be Mormon. So we're sitting

in this group meeting and the bishop comes in and he's going to talk to us all. And behind him is his first counselor pulling like a dolly, a moving dolly. And on it is a bunch of yard signs. And I'm thinking what's going on here? Because first off, Mormons are not supposed to get involved in politics at all. We're not supposed to discuss politics with each other. We're supposed to vote our conscience. You're not supposed to discuss politics at church. And the church is never supposed to get involved in politics. There is supposed to be a very hard line between we believe in the Constitution. We don't believe in church and state.

You know, they should be separate. And on this sign, on this dolly, these signs, the bishop pulls one of them out and he says, brothers and sisters, we have been instructed by the first presidency. Those are the leaders of the church to ask you to put these signs in your yard that say vote no on prop eight. What was Prop 8? I'm like, what is this? Gay marriage. Okay.

California was the first state to put gay marriage on the ballot. And we were being told as Utah Mormons that California Mormons look up to, because, you know, being a Utah Mormon is the best of all the Mormons. To put these signs in our yard so word would reach Californians that Utah Mormons did not want gay marriage. reach to pass. And I'm sorry, are there a lot of, are there a lot of, um, California Mormons? Oh, yeah. Really?

Oh, yeah. Oh, there are so many Mormons in Arizona and California. It would shock you. Yeah. Arizona's full of Mormons. Yeah. California too. Lots and lots.

Big, big pockets of them, you know. So I, I, I still remember when I think about this, like I, I can still see the sunbeams. coming in through the window. It was kind of dusty in there. And I felt my face start to get really hot because I had worked for my dad and I had enough legal expertise. My father is a judge. And I had enough legal expertise to know. First off, marriage, even though I didn't really understand gay marriage at the time, I was like 35 or 36, marriage is a civil right. It's not a church right. Your bishop doesn't sign your marriage license. The government does. So that makes it a civil union. And so I had talked to my dad about this when I started hearing these rumors and

my dad said, my dad is the most Mormon, Republican, straight-laced guy, but he understands the law. And he said, yes, gay people should be allowed to get married because marriage is a civil union. So my father, as devout as he is, has such an understanding and respect for the law that he was willing to overlook what his church was saying to follow the law. So knowing this, watching them do this, I don't know what happened to me. Something took over my body. I could feel like the heat rising on my face and I got real sweaty. And I had my quad on my lap. Your quad is your scriptures. It has the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price and the Doctrine and Covenants all in one book and it's like this thick. And I had my quad, the other three books besides the Bible

are Mormon books. Those are books only Mormons use. I slammed it shut and I reached down and shoved my scriptures in my bag, my church bag, and I yanked it up off the floor. And I stood up and just storm. I remember I looked down at this poor neighbor of mine and I said, move. Really loud. And he got out of the way and I stormed past him in the aisle and out the door and slammed the door behind me. And I never went back to church. That was it. What happened with your husband? What did he say? He came scrambling out after me. And the next week, he was like, are we going to church? And I said, no, we're not. I said, you can go if you want. I'm not going. And then the next week came and the kids were like, are we going to church bomb?

And I said, no, I'm not. You can go if you want. And nobody went. Nobody ever went back. Okay. That's how I left. So, and it was. I'm sorry. Did anybody, your bishop come to see you? Did anybody, any calls? Oh, yeah. They tried to get me back a lot. I had lots of visits from the Relief Society presidency, what's called the home teachers, two men are partnered up and they are assigned families

to go and check on their families once a month. I got a letter from the bishop. I got letters from other ladies in the neighborhood that were worried for my immortal soul. It comes from a good place. I feel like I'm talking about a different person right now. I'm fidgeting in my chair because it's so odd and so uncomfortable to talk about this, I was a different person. It was a different person back then.

And when I left, in Mormonism, there's a metaphor and it's called your shelf. So you're either a Mormon that has a shelf or you're a Mormon that doesn't. If you have a shelf, you have a shelf that hangs on the wall. And every time you have a question that there's no answer for, you put that issue on the shelf. Now, some Mormons don't have a shelf because they don't have any questions. They follow, they believe my mom is like this. She is a faithful person. She doesn't need to ask a question. If this is the way it is and God says it's this way, this is the way it's going to be.

But some people have a shelf. And every time they go, well, the Joseph Smith story is really weird. Put it on the shelf. Well, he had sex with a 14 year old girl. Oh, no, put it on the shelf. And the metaphor goes that for a lot of us, you put so many things on the shelf that the shelf breaks. And then you go down the rabbit hole. And once you go down the rabbit hole and you start learning about actual church history,

your mind is, I want to say literally, even though that's not correct, your mind is blown. When you find out everything you've been taught is not true and then you find out the real truth, the anger and the rage and the sadness that you feel, I don't think it's possible to, to describe it to people that have not left Mormonism. It's you find out I've been betrayed my whole life by the people that love me the most because they were betrayed by the people that love them the most and on and on and on. Nobody did it to you on purpose. They thought they were bringing you into the most wonderful thing on earth.

And my family still believes it's the most wonderful thing on earth. So I think I mentioned Andrew Smith Levy early. Aaron Smith Levy. Aaron, uh-huh. I don't know if we had, I don't know if we talked to that. I mentioned him before. Yes. So, okay, so that won't be a, nobody else known that.

So he wasn't Mormon. He was a Scientologist. Oh, very similar. So when he left, he and his wife left, the church basically they, they, I don't think they call it shunning, but they have a, like, they call it. Um, nope, it's not shunning. It's a different word. You're, you're labeled a this person. Non-person or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. It's I can't remember what the exact word is. Yeah. Like literally, like his, his, um, you know, his mother was told not to talk to him anymore. His, his, his father and mother-in-law, like, and what's so funny is like, I think they owned a house like a cross.

crossed the street from his. Uh-huh. And so they would come over. And it's actually sad when he tells it. So I shouldn't say it's funny, but it's, it's an odd situation. They would come over like the house that people would move out. Right. Renters and they would have to go over there to clean it up and fix it up.

And so they, they would go over there. And his kids would try and go over and see, oh, there's grandma and grandpa. off. And they would want to go see them. And Aaron's like, I don't want to tell them not to. But basically, if they went across the street to try and go see him, like they would like go in the house and close the door and not answer the door. Like it was like, right. Right. And then so he went on a campaign where he sticks like a sign in his front yard. And every time somebody comes to see the house, he goes over there and says, you know, Well, first it was Mormons that they're, I'm sorry, not I'm sorry. It was Scientologists they were trying to sell them to because they wanted to sell to other Scientologists.

And he would go out there and he would say, hey, just want to let you know, not in person, living across the street. Like he would be like, yeah, I'm not interested in being involved in this. I think eventually they ended up selling it to somebody who was a, like they couldn't rent it, they couldn't sell it. Eventually they told it to somebody who wasn't in the church. Like I had to get permission. But they really went out.

went out of the way they got him fired from his job like they went out they went so far out of their way to make his life miserable he started a youtube channel and i mean i promise you they have regretted oh yeah like he's like he's like all they had to do is be like hey i get it that's fine we're not going to put this restraint on you but instead they picked the fight with the wrong person yeah he's like a remedy she says the same thing yeah he's a huge thorn in their side i love it i mean i love And I don't understand. There are a lot of women my age that I'm associated with that have left the church. And it's about 50, 50, whether or not their parents still talk to them.

I'm very, very fortunate. I have a wonderful relationship with my parents. I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that they're actually good Christians. They actually follow what Jesus taught. I'm not a believer in Jesus. But if Jesus, you know, was a real person and those are the things he taught, love your neighbor, forgive, you know, treat those who harm you well. My parents have done all of those things. And I think my dad being a judge too, he saw a lot of destruction in families. He was a

juvenile judge. And so he saw a lot of destruction in families. And he knew it was like, if I push my daughter away, I'm just going to lose my daughter. And he didn't want that. So to their credit, they have kept me in their life, even though a lot of people in their positions would not have. In fact, there are people that have told me my dad was probably going to be. called to be a general authority or a member of the quorum of the 70 and he cannot be now because he has an apostate daughter but he's never he's never put that on me but there other people have it's not good yeah it's it's it's quite it's it's quite a fun label to carry for your whole life i i call myself an apostate because that's their word for me and be oh that's such an ugly word

why do you use it and i said because that's what they call me if you take the word back it loses all its power, you know? What does that mean? Apostate. Apostate means that you are cast from the eyes of God. In Mormon's eyes, if they're true believers, they believe that I am what's called a son of perdition and I will be cast into hell. I will never be able to be in the presence of God because I have denied my testimony.

They believe that I had a testimony at one point. I went to the temple. I was a believer and now I'm not anymore. And so I'm an apostate and I'm a apostate. and I'm a son of perdition and we'll never be in the presence of God. So it's pretty heavy if I were to still believe all of that. Mormons have a really high suicide rate. Mormons have a really high,

I think we have the highest addiction to opioids in the country, Utah does. We have the highest use of antidepressants in the country. And we have the highest amount of teen suicide. I think it's, I don't even think it's teen. I think it's under the age of 21 suicide in the country in Utah. Because anyone who's gay or queer is, they're killing themselves. I mean, at some point, you would think the church would have to kind of go. You'd think with all the blood on their hands, but they haven't done that so far.

Yeah. We're going to loosen the reins on this here. It's, you know, they come out and they say things like, um, everyone is welcome here. Well, as long as you don't get married, if you're queer, as long as you don't bring a partner to church, as long as you stay celibate and live your life alone and don't tell anyone you're gay. I mean, the amount of gay friends that I have, I have all my, most of my friends are gay men that are closest to me. I do have some girlfriends, but I've had a lot of gay male friends over the years and I have not known one that has not had multiple married Mormon boyfriends.

So what was your, so was your husband ever, did he ever say like, hey, why don't we go back or is this an issue? He was just kind of like, listen, I was just going because he was going. He was going because in this small southern Utah town where we live, it's not as much like this anymore. It's, it's changed a little bit. But your kids are not invited to some parties if you're not Mormon and not active. your kids are not treated the same by some school teachers if you're not active Mormon. We wanted our kids to be good kids and make their lives easier. And in doing that, you know, we subjected them to some things that they're now having to deal with as adults and they're and religious trauma of their own. I didn't know I was doing that at the time. I was just doing what I thought was right, just like my parents did what they thought was right and

still think is right. It's it's just hard because I tell people it's unfair to birth the child into something that controls their whole life when that child never agreed to be part of it. You know, I never made the choice to be part of the church and I was forced to claw my way out of it as an adult when I never agreed to be a part of it. And that is very unfair to me. I mean, that's, that's all religions. If you're born into a Jewish family, about a 99% chance you're going to, you're going to follow the Jewish faith, the Catholic base, Christian faith. Yes. Just in general, that's a thing.

Yeah. Yeah. That's a story. Yeah. It's funny. I had gone on a date one time with a woman that was a Scientologist. Uh-huh. And, you know, we hung out for we spent two or three hours together.

Uh-huh. And I was like, and it's funny too because when I was, we were when we were, when we were, I was dropping her at her car, she goes, I really, really would like to see you again. But I told her on the first date that I'd been in prison. Oh. And she said, and I was, I was like, yeah, me too. This was great. And she said, um, and keep in mind, it was COVID. Okay.

So, you know, nothing happened because the church or the Scientologists were so, you know, they were following all the rules to the max. Oh, I didn't know that. Okay. Extreme. Uh-huh. You know, they didn't want it to get in there and ravish their, the community, whatever. Oh. So, you know, so we did nothing happen.

Like we, and she'd explain going there like, listen, like, we're going to go. You know, I'm going to go, but I want you to let you know. Here's where I'm at. Here's what's going on. I was like, yeah, yeah, that's fine. So we went out to dinner and I mentioned to her what was, you know, my thing. And so she was like, I really want to see you again. Like this was so great.

We had so much time, you know, so much fun. And she was like, I said, okay, well, you want to do it on, you know, what about Thursday? And she went. So I have to ask my, and I forget who that person was, what they called him, like her guidance, whatever. Oh, it's like a monitor or something like that. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

And she said. She said, but I don't she's pretty cool. I don't think it's going to be a problem. I said, oh, okay. And she said, well, you know, I'll call you tomorrow. I'll let you know and well, I'm sure we'll schedule something. But you know, let's give me a minute. No problem.

Next day, she was like, wow. Hey, so we're going to be friends. Oh, I was like, oh, okay. Really? And she's like, yeah. And I said, well, what happened? She's like, yeah, I'm not really supposed to get. into it. I'm not supposed to discuss church business or you know, things that happen. She said,

but yeah, she said, it's a hard no. So I said what the guy say? She's like, yeah, I'm, I can't say what we those are confidential, you know. What do you think it was? Oh, she told him, hey, look, I like this guy. But by the way, he, he was in prison. And. That was it. Oh, I'm sure that was it because other than that she you know keep in mind she'd been married to a guy like she was born a scientologist and raised scientologists her parents were scientologists all the way she knows the scientist she had actually met a a Muslim and married him what she married to him for like 10 years huh so she's like you know they don't have a problem she's like it's not that you're not a Scientologist she said it's she had already told me she said the the prison thing might be a problem

because they're very concerned about like status appearances appearances status that sort of thing. I was like, okay. And she said, and I was like, is it because I'm not a Scientologist? Would that be a problem? And she said, no, that wouldn't be a problem at all. She said, be honest. She said, matter of fact, she said, I was married to, you know. Yeah.

To this guy. And I was like, okay. And she said, yeah. So she said, I don't think it's going to be an issue. She said it might be, but I don't think so. Well, I think what happened, of course, is that if you look me up, it's an issue. And keep in mind, this was like three, four years ago. My wife and I had been, it was my girlfriend at the time.

We had been dating and we broke up for like, you know, two or three weeks. Uh-huh. Which, of course, she says is not enough time for me to have gone on another date. And I'm like, yeah, like, oh, you're wrong about that. I was pissed. It took me all three days to put my, to get on a couple of apps and start. Yeah. So, you know, if you're thinking, oh, there's a grace period.

Yeah. When the door closes. Yeah. Yeah. You know, she gets furious. So I can imagine she does. Anyway, so yeah. So during that three weeks, I went on that date with that.

It was so funny, too, because I remember one time. I was driving like this is whatever we just got back together and I was driving and I had you know in the dash you know how you have the screen right yes yes so we're going somewhere and I'm following the I'm following the map yes and I go and as I'm driving I said I said what does it say you know how how far is it and she leans into the the map to look at it and she leans into the the map to look at it and she's to kind of like move it around to see how far or something or and she starts to do it and when I would get a text notification it would drop down oh and the girl's name was gin it went and gin hey what are you doing my wife was like she goes she goes turn around I said I'm not turning around did you get your ass chewed I'm not turn around you can leave from the restaurant if you want But I'm going to get breakfast. I'm hungry.

Yeah, she was okay by the time we got there. But that always kills me. She was so, man. I, I, yeah, it was, what do they say from friends? We were on a break. We were on a break. We were on a break. Oh, Ross.

Yeah, they really run your life. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. It's the same in Mormonism. You're, you're expected to counsel with your, bishop, you're expected to pray, you're expected to go to your leaders if you have questions. And the problem is, as I was talking about these interviews that happen with children, why it's become such an issue, is a lot of times these bishops are giving psychological counseling and they

don't have any training. Yeah. They shouldn't be giving people life counsel and life advice and career advice and marriage advice and psychological advice. They're not qualified. And no grown man should be locked in a room with a small child asking them questions about kissing and that just shouldn't happen. And there's a man named Sam Young who has started a crusade. It's called Protect All Children. And it's a crusade.

He walks around with like a Protect the Children flag tied to his tied around his neck and he marches up and down in front of the temple and he was once a you know a stake president and a bishop and very high up in the church and his daughters came to him and had very similar experiences to some of mine that i haven't gone into the details of here but um he was horrified because he was a good man like my dad was a good man and would never ask a child something like that that there are men that really take advantage of those situations and as we know there are a lot of freaking sickos and pitos and creeps. And when they get in a position where they've got a little bit of power boy,

they lord that over you, you know? And he was horrified by that. And he has left the church and started this big crusade to stop these closed door bishops interviews. And I hope they do stop because they're inappropriate. I would never, I mean, I think about my little granddaughters now. And I'm like, oh, if somebody ever told them, they had to go in a room and answer to some strange man,

I'd probably go to jail. Are you still a singer? Yeah. I had to, I mean, during COVID, all of that died out. And what's happening now is really weird. People don't realize to live through COVID, musicians live either here or here. There's no gray area. You're either up here making money, you're famous, or you're down here struggling, barely

getting by. You know, I'm lucky enough to have a husband that supports my career and things like that. and I've always done other things on the side. I've always, you know, painted and and had a little, you know, side jobs, side gigs here and there. But what happened during COVID is all the people that are down here on this level sold all their equipment to get by. So now, even though COVID's been over for a few years, people are just still rebuilding their equipment. So the live shows are still slow in coming back because a lot of people sold off all their gear in order to feed themselves. and so the scene is still a little bit slow, the circuit that I play on.

So I have a circuit. There's one up in Salt Lake. We're all going hit like Provo, Salt Lake, Logan, Southern Idaho, sometimes go over to Reno, windover, you know, there's another circuit that's, you know, Vegas to Reno to Southern California, go all around through San Diego and San Jose, all of that. And some of those places just never reopened. So the circuit is kind of building itself back up again and that's taking some time.

But I'm, yeah, I'm back on it. And even at my old age, I still like to do it. I don't do it as much as I used to because I'm old and I got sick of hump and gear. But yeah, I still do it. So I'm still plugging along and probably going to do another album in the next year or so. And despite what the bishop said, I think I turned out to be a pretty good mom. So, you know, but yeah, it was pretty crushing when I left the church to find out I'd given all of that up for something that turned out to be. a story. It was heartbreaking. I was angry for a long time. And then I got tired of being angry and

I just decided not to be angry anymore, you know? Well, and how long ago, when and why did you start your YouTube channel? You have a true crime. What do you call it a true crime YouTube channel? Yeah, yeah. True crime mysteries, cult stories, conspiracies, any dark story. I started it because of COVID. I literally was sitting at home tearing my hair out. I was like, I can't sing. I can't perform. There's no art shows going on. There's no gallery showings. There's nothing because I paint too. And I was like, well, I love true crime. I'm fascinated with it. I know I read everything. I watch everything. I'm like, and also my husband and I had restaurants. And so I'm like, what if I did true crime and food? And everybody was like, Stacey, that sounds very weird.

But that's what I started doing. So I would tell a true crime story that had an element of food to it, a murder that, you know, was conceived of in a pizza parlor. And then I would make a pizza, a mobster that was killed in a restaurant. And then I would cook the food from the restaurant, you know. And after about a year and a half, two years, I was like, you know, the channel's growing a little bit, but it's a little niche. And people said, yeah, it is a little niche. And then I decided to branch out and just go straight true crime and mysteries and cult stories, conspiracies. Even though I'm not a conspiracy theorist, I do really enjoy talking about him. And just being a former member of a high demand religion, you know, cults are very interesting to me. So I have a friend whose girlfriend

was saying one time a good podcast or, or it would be to, well, one, she was saying to make the meal, but you probably just talk about the meal. It's like the last meal that different serial killers asked for. So I had a whole playlist on Dining with Death that was called Dining with the damned and it was I would tell the crime story and then eat the last meal before the execution. So there's a whole playlist on my channel. All the videos are still up on dark hearts with Stacey Lee. But there's a single playlist now called Dining with Death and all of the food episodes are on that playlist. But yeah, you can see me eat the last meals of gosh, how many of those episodes did I do? I mean at least 50, 75 somewhere around in there. So.

everything from giant meals of, you know, buckets of fried chicken and two pizzas and eight cheeseburgers and fries to Victor Fager who asked for an olive, you know. So it was, it was interesting. I also did a series where I talked about dining with the departed, where I would talk about famous people and eat the meal they had right before they died or their favorite food. We'd do rock stars and, you know, movie stars and things like that. So. It was interesting, but it was very niche. But so that turned into what do you typically go over now? Dark Hearts with Stacey Lee, which is just true crime without the food element, just true crime stories, much deeper dives, 30 to 45 minute true crime stories, scripted, mysteries. I do a lot of cultural phenomenon stories. Like, I don't know if you've seen like the scandal about mom talk about the Mormon ladies that were swingers. they were all like sleeping with each other's husbands. Do you know anything about that?

No. It was a big scandal on TikTok and so like I do stories like that that are dark but maybe not true crime. You know, maybe nobody dies, but they're still like very dark stories. I do a lot of, you know, mysteries and people really, really, really like the conspiracy stories and they love the cult stories. The cult stories tend to give me what I call the church giggles, you know, where you're like trying not to laugh, but you're laughing and you can't stop. that happens to me a lot when I talk about cults because they're just especially like the UFO Colts and the people that the people that believe like they're going to go live on a star or something like that those like Heaven's Gate the Heaven's Gate there are some that are

so much worse than Heaven's Gate like the people honestly think they're made out of starlight and they can live on oxygen and and then I cover people like teal swan I don't know if you know who she is. She's like a modern day con artist. Very, very, very bright, very, very manipulative, very pretty. Has a lot of people that follow her, but she has some very dangerous ideas. She tells people to kill themselves that they're not happy because it's setting the reset button. There's another guy named Bentino Massaro, really good looking guy, has all these followers.

And he tells him the same thing, you know, hit the reset button if you're not happy. dangerous, dangerous stuff. And then there's just wacky, goofy cults that, you know, these two idiots from my hometown that started this cult and took their kids out into the desert. And it started out really goofy and ended up really sick and dark with the kids marrying each other. And yeah, I love talking about that stuff because it's, I truly believe the only way we can prevent monsters is by studying the monsters we know about. there are things all monsters have in common. And it's the psychology that interests me. That's

the human condition, the mind. Why do people do this? Why do people are 40 years old, an accountant one day and go, God just talked to me and told me that I'm a prophet and I'm going to go start a church. Why does somebody grow up with an abusive mother that turns into a great guy and another guy that grows up with an abusive mother turns into a monster? Like what, what is the, you know what I mean? a lot of us are abused as kids. I wasn't, but a lot of us as a people who are abused as kids, but we don't all turn out to be monsters. But there is this segment that does. And the abuse is always there. And that fascinates me. So I love talking about stuff like that. Did you ever read the book, Survivor by Chuck Paholnikach? No, but it's in my husband's book

collection. It's a great book. Are you kidding? It's a great book. It's a couple hundred pages long. It's so overwhelmingly interesting, especially, you know, because it, because he, the guy's from a cult. Okay. I'm sorry, has your husband read it? I'm sure he has. My husband reads those 1,400 page Elfin Wizard books and anything that gets popular or he's interested in. He's a reader. So I'm sure he has it.

It's on his shelf. Oh, if you read the first chapter of this book or the, you know, first whatever, pages, you'll be like, oh, wow, it's, you know, Paholtencchek is the guy that wrote Fight Club. That's where I've heard the name. Yes. That's why my husband has the book because he's obsessed with Fight Club. It's one of his favorite books. It's honestly, it may be better than Fight Club. Okay. It's all about a guy that was a part of kind of like a cult. Okay. what they do is it's like the eldest son when he reaches 18, they're basically trained all their

lives on how to be domestic servants. Oh. So what the oldest, and they have like eight or ten kids and they live on a compound. And what they do is they send off the oldest 18 year. When the oldest son gets sent off into society to make money and they send the money back. Oh, Lord. And so they go live with these multi-million, you know, in these multi-million dollar homes with these millionaires who use them as servants. And they know they just have to feed them and they send all the money back.

And so that's how they make all their money to support their life on this compound. Yeah. And they're always talking about the apocalypse and that they need to survive until the apocalypse. And then they'll read, they'll, you know, whatever. or Armageddon. Yes. So the idea is that if Armageddon happens and the government comes for them, then they're all going to commit, you know, they're going to commit.

Uh-huh. And so and all the domestic servants have to do it too. Spread out all over like wherever they're working. Right. So also you find out like the whole, the whole compound or community, you know, 10,000 or 20th hour many there are they've all committed and then so then all the servants or that are out that the survivors as they find out they start committing oh he ends up being the lone survivor as people are like and like the government gives all of them like not probation like social workers

that have to check on them constantly are you feeling okay are you it's like yeah I'm fine well this explains why my husband has this book because he did his senior thesis in college on jones Oh, yeah. Listen. That's with Jones Town. So I'm telling you, read the book. You would go get out. Yeah, I'm not the greatest reader in the world because my ADD is like all over the place. But I'll, I'm going to read it. It's very fast paced, very fast paced. That's my kind of story. I'm not into the 1400 page wizard books. I can't, I can't do those. No, it's just like it's the church thing. Like we go to a church, my wife and I, and it's about,

it's just about each sermon's just about or whatever um you know i'm catholic so i grew up catholic so i was on mass but anyway every whatever service is roughly an hour to an hour and five minutes tim and not too too long but to me my wife knows this about me we'll go you know we'll go on an airboat down the river she likes to do stuff like outdoor stuff and it'll be like three hours. Yeah. And she's like, you know, you want to get the whole experience. I'm like, I got the whole experience in 45 minutes. And listen, at 45 minutes, that's perfect for church. I can do 40 because at the last 15 minutes, it's agony. I'm doing this. Have you been tested for ADD, Matthew? No, I'm dying. It's yeah, like it's bad. You have some of the symptoms.

I like to call it for myself. I would never say this about any else. I got to touch the tism. There's a little touch of the tism and I get bored real quick. Me too. Me too. I love that though. I love it when people can find their community. That's really what I lost when I left the Mormon church. It's you lose everything. You lose your community. You lose your family for a little while. I mean, I got mine back, but it's nice to find community. So if you've got somewhere that you feel at home, I think that's amazing. So I need, I still need to find that. I haven't found that yet, but I'm always looking.

We'll see. It's funny because, you know, we both, my wife also, she did five years in prison. Uh-huh. And we actually met in the halfway house. So, so, but so in the church, you know, they had their pitch like, hey, we have all these outreach programs. Okay. We do this and we do that and we raise money for this and we raise clothes and food and this. and they have one for prison.

Oh. And so my wife sent an email the other day saying, listen, we want to do that. And she's like, do you want to do it? I said, absolutely. I said, if it's after five o'clock and we can go there, like during the weekend, that's what, because I have a problem after five o'clock, I want to, I just munch all night. I kind of just, just, I eat, I eat this, I eat that.

I just, I'm always snacking on then. And so I'm like, listen, we'll lose weight. If we give me one or two days a week and we go there, we don't, I won't be eating for a few hours. I'll come home. It's your big bus program. Right. So she said, she's like, okay, okay. So she wrote an email and never got a response. And I, and she said, I wonder why they haven't responded. Like it doesn't make sense. I said, because it's all a scam. It's just for looks. I said, I don't even have a, they probably don't even have an outreach program for prison. It just sounds good. Oh, that would be really shitty. Really? I know, right? Yeah, that would be really bad. I'm going to write another email. I'm

I'm going to write one. That's my beef with, one of my big beasts with Mormonism is that they do have $160 billion. A whistleblower came out and blew this wide open like five years ago. Then it was 120. Now it's estimated to be more like 160 billion. And they don't have any soup kitchens, no homeless shelters, no domestic violence shelters. They do not touch the unwashed masses. That's the way that they look at it. And it's frustrating for me. When I left the church, we lived in Las Vegas and I lived downtown Las Vegas and like a block from Fremont Street. And so for my church, I called it my church, I would go down and feed the homeless.

And my husband and I almost got arrested a couple times because it's illegal to feed homeless people. But they got to know me down there and I got to hear a lot of their stories and things like that. And I just thought, you know, the church, the Mormon church could end world hunger with that kind of money. They could go to every junior high and elementary school in the country, every year and pay off all of the lunch debts to make sure no kid ever went without lunch again. And they don't do that.

They could buy housing for the homeless. They could get water to places that don't have water. And they don't do any of those things. And so that's a real big gripe with me. The Mormon church, by its own admission, has donated a little over a billion dollars in the last 50 years. Well, when you have $160 billion, $1 billion ain't nothing. You know, churches should not have massive wealth. That is my opinion.

And I would like to see them do more. So I would like for them to be doing, you know, more of what your church says it's doing. And the church does do things. They do. They send hygiene kits and supplies during hurricanes and things like that. But with $160 billion in the bank, they need to be doing more. Hey, you guys. If you like the episode, do me a favor.

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