Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - Online Predator Horror Stories | The Dark World of Cyberstalking

Episode Date: February 19, 2025

I MET MY MURDERER ONLINE is an immersive true crime audio experience that will make you think twice about your next Google search, DM, or dating app swipe. Hosted by Jillian Lee Garner and Kourtney Bell, each episode tells a true, but tragic tale, of how the internet can ensnare the unsuspecting into a devastating date with death. Each chilling story is told by the actual people involved in these deadly encounters, including law enforcement, victim’s family members, and sometimes the murderers themselves.Book a Call With Dan Wise https://calendly.com/federalprisontime/matt-coxLinks https://www.instagram.com/jillianleegarner/https://www.instagram.com/kourtneybellll/https://open.spotify.com/show/7bOCccdSqQMCEyGQx2Usk7Follow me on all socials!Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/insidetruecrime/TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@mattcoxtruecrimeDo you want to be a guest? Fill out the form https://forms.gle/5H7FnhvMHKtUnq7k7Send me an email here: [e-mail] you want a custom "con man" painting to shown up at your doorstep every month? Subscribe to my Patreon: https: //www.patreon.com/insidetruecrimeDo you want a custom painting done by me? Check out my Etsy Store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/coxpopartListen to my True Crime Podcasts anywhere: https://anchor.fm/mattcox Check out my true crime books! Shark in the Housing Pool: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0851KBYCFBent: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BV4GC7TMIt's Insanity: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08KFYXKK8Devil Exposed: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08TH1WT5GDevil Exposed (The Abridgment): https://www.amazon.com/dp/1070682438The Program: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0858W4G3KBailout: https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/bailout-matthew-cox/1142275402Dude, Where's My Hand-Grenade?: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BXNFHBDF/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1678623676&sr=1-1Checkout my disturbingly twisted satiric novel!Stranger Danger: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BSWQP3WXIf you would like to support me directly, I accept donations here:Paypal: https://www.paypal.me/MattCox69Cashapp: $coxcon69

It was in prison for 13 years. I go, it's not a big deal. She's, they don't send people to prison for 13 years because it's not a big deal. And I mean, she's like really loud. I'm like, I went to mash.com. I went to Tinder. Like, I get kicked off with three different dating app. They go to a baseball game.

He gets drunk. They go back to her place. And the next morning, her car and her are missing. But her phone, purse, wallet, everything's at her house. This guy that she had been dating for a month was homeless, an alcoholic, got drunk, killed her, drowned her in her bathtub, chopped up her body. And so based on the rapper, he was able to look up certain, like, delis in New York City that had that specific wrapper. Google imaged all of the restaurants, found the specific one that he was sitting in. and he was able to say, you are at this exact restaurant,

and then he walked 100 feet across the street to sit and eat it at this spot. I think people in general, if they're sharp, they can fool you. Yeah. And honestly, I'm such a huge believer in intuition. Yeah. Something doesn't feel right. It's not right. Like something's wrong.

this is Matt Cox and I'm going to be doing an interview with Courtney Bell and Gillian Lee Garner and they have a podcast called I Met My Murder Online. Check out the interview. I listened to the episode, the last episode. And, you know, it's funny. It seemed really good. Like it's heavily, well, it's not super heavily edited because I didn't hear any I know it was really edited well because you do in there are interviews with with different um what do you want to call subjects or witnesses or yeah yeah participants yeah i mean we definitely have you know psychologists and um lawyers come on different attorneys from the case um yeah but we try to get as many different opinions about it and perspectives as possible and in order to get as much detail to. Right. The victim's husband. Especially because, yeah,

you know, Jillian and I are the experts. We are the one sharing the story with the audience and we are weighing in essentially in our goal is to weigh in in real time. So we can give our thought as to what we would do differently, what we want to do the future to keep ourselves safe rather than trying to present this as something that we are incredibly knowledgeable about and know what, what could have been, you know, dismiss if it's done, where you're sharing the story. Right. So I have a question. So how did this all kind of come about? Like, well, maybe first, I'm sorry, Jillian, how did how did you end up, I guess, what do you got, you both in L.A.? Yes.

I'm born and raised in L.A., Courtney's from Michigan, and we met in college together, and then I actually, so I met my murder online started as a TV show, and I was actually one of the reenacting actors on said TV show. And about a year after I filmed my episode, which was actually Meredith's episode, I was the reenacting actor for playing Meredith. And so about a year after I filmed that, I was reached out to because they wanted to take the podcast in a different direction. And they wanted it to just be less NPR, more conversational, a little bit of banter. And I said I have the perfect person. And it is Courtney Bell. And she is absolutely fantastic. And she's just been a joy to be a partner with. It's been, I hate to say fun,

because it's really hard stories, but to go through this, I wouldn't want anyone else by my side. Well, Courtney, how did you two meet? We, I mean, we were in theater school together, so I feel like part of being in theater school together is you're thrown into massive, you know, having 80 friends all in one day.

So I can't remember the exact day that we met because Jill is two years younger than me, but I feel like we had an instant connection right when we got there. And Gillian is truly one of the most talented actors I have ever seen perform in my life. Like, look her up, you guys, and watch her things and follow her. So I was really drawn to her because I was like, this is a person that I can learn from. You know, so I was so grateful when she reached out to me just so we can have something else to work on together. Yeah. Um, so why, I understand. So why, I understand. So, you. You were, you were kind of, you know, thrust into this, or it was, but.

Well, we were asked to audition, basically. Right. Okay. But, I mean, it kind of just kind of came about, right? Like, it, you didn't, it wasn't like you said, hey, I've got a great idea for a podcast. No, because the podcast was already. Right. It was already happening.

They just decided to take it in a different direction. And, yeah, and they, they reached out to me. Right. That's what I'm saying. It's kind of thrust upon you. Like you... Yeah. It was a serendipitous moment, you can say.

Yeah. Yeah. Were the both of you already interested in true crime at all or... Well, I work in podcasting. So I was kind of already in this space. So I think they just kind of connected dots and was like, Jillian knows the show. Jilly knows the podcast space. Jilly might be able to make this a good show.

And Jillian knows the perfect person to... in a long time. So yeah, it was a very serendipitous kisman moment. And I jumped at the opportunity as to Courtney because this is, we're the target audience. We're the exact people that need to hear these stories, need to learn from these stories. And that's kind of what we're trying to do is to have it be the audience just like our friends. Like we have these conversations. Like we have these conversations. conversations with our friends constantly. Did you send me your location? Oh, can you send me whose Uber you're taking? Like, can you let me know when you're home? Like, these are all daily practices and we just kind of want to tell the stories to a broader audience because 4.76 billion people use social media. Like, about 60% of the world's population is using social media now. So it's just more prevalent than ever to make sure that we're safe and we're cautious and we're aware. Is it like three out of five or two out of five relationships are now started through dating apps?

Wow. I mean, my best friend last year married her husband and they met on Tinder. Yeah. Yeah, I hear it more and more every day. I wonder what the actual statistic is I know it's high. I was like, wow, that's like, you know. And it's climbing. I was going to say initially I had heard it and it was like, this is a few years ago, it was like 25% or maybe one third.

And then recently I think it was like, I don't know what it was. It was even higher. And I was like, that's higher than it was a few years ago. Yeah. And I think it'll just keep climbing. But the unfortunate truth is, and Jillian, correct me if I'm wrong, run this. But it's, we have, it's around, it's over 10,000 abductions happen every year through dating apps and thousands of sexual assaults just in the United States have happened with the rise of dating apps. So, of course, you know, there's so much beauty to not only dating apps, but having Instagram, having, um, only fans is wonderful, having access to getting apartments, you're getting, you know, new tools.

on Craigslist, but there's also this other side of now we're trying to figure how to keep people safe while we watch this thing kind of grow out of control. Yeah, that's true. 16,000 abductions and sexual assaults from dating apps in the past, like, just in the U.S. Did you, okay, I mean, so like, you know, try and stay vigilant. Like, is that part of the part of the episodes that you kind of talk about that or yeah i'd say every episode kind of has something new to learn like pottlesma he was killed because he posted he accidentally posted his address along with all of well he accidentally posted his address while he was purposefully posting all of the material objects he had just bought on rodeo drive and his trip to l.A.

and so it you know that episode would teach the audience audience like I should not post my address I should lock the Airbnb I'm in if it allows there's just so many different things whereas like with Jenae Gagne's story you know she was an only fans um person person yeah creator I don't know and she like her address was found through gift giving and so and so it just I would say Every episode kind of talks about a different aspect of how to be safe using social media or just the internet. Right. Did you guys ever see my favorite murderer?

I know it. Yes, yeah, I know it. Yeah, it's, they're two, I don't know what happened. They were everywhere maybe three, four years ago. They were huge. don't really hear about them anymore. It's one of the top podcasts. Is it?

Yeah. My podcast, yeah. I thought it's, right. Yeah, I mean, I'm in their doubt. I just, I just remember it was just everywhere a couple years ago. It was the two comedians that talk about their favorite, favorite, it's still their favorite murders. But they are, they are honestly hilarious when they're talking about it. But I want to say what, do you know what the statistic is?

For women that, or for women that watch true crime, it's, it's like outrageous. It's like 70% or something. Oh, yeah. Of women that watch. Yeah. And I think it like 35 to 55 female is like the main target audio. It's insane. It's insane.

I was thinking, oh, sorry, you go. No, no, go ahead. I just, it's simply, but I. saw a post the other day. It was a conversation from a therapist that was basically explaining if you were a person who sits down at night and you're aware of relaxing is listening to a crime podcast or watching a crime documentary, you should see a therapist. Like that is one of the initial things for them that they would be like, this is a diagnosable thing because you should not find comfort in stress. And that brings up, you grew up in a really stressful environment

and we need to talk about your anxiety levels and how to manage them because that is not normal. You know, I blame late night TV because I feel like when I was growing up, if I wanted to fall asleep with a TV on, it was NCIS, it was Law and Order SVU. It was just like the most brutal murder. And I'm just like, so I think we're a certain generation

where it's like we're just so desensitized to it. I think. And that's even to say that now we can have comedic true crime podcasts. Like, I think that says something to society. I wonder why women are so attracted to that. Because so take, you know, my podcast. I mean, I'm, I don't, I don't, I seriously doubt that you guys have ever seen my podcast. But, so let me give you the, the skinny is basically I talk about just crimes, but like, I'd say 99% of the crimes are, are crimes like, you know, bank robbery or fraud. Most of it's fraud related. Or someone who was ripping off ATM machines or it's 99% is, and none of them are violent. Like I think I've had one. Well, I wouldn't, I don't know about

pay. There's, there's millions of dollars. You know, or even. You know, or even. even bank robber like these aren't oh yeah what I go so I think I've had one guy on that that killed someone but it was it was a justified homicide it was the guy attacked him in his own house and he's right and he had a weapon

and he shot him you know and they they did they arrested the guy and it was like two years before they finally just dropped the charges he was like wow take me to trial or this guy attacked me in my house. Yeah. And I shot of. I mean, that's, that is absolute, um, stay in your ground. There's no way jury in Florida is going or in South Carolina. That's a constitutional, right? You know, right? Right. So, but, you know, it was a new prosecutor and whatever. So, uh, he, anyway, it was a great podcast. So, but other than that, it's mostly crimes that are more thought out.

And as a, and I don't know, as a result of that or not, I don't know. As a result of that or not, I don't know what the reason is, but the makeup of the people that watch my podcast, it's like 93 to 95 percent male. Interesting. Isn't that not? I You know, I will say, I think it makes sense to

me in some things. Obviously, I'm just theorizing here. I absolutely know fact to base this off of. But as a woman, you have to be so hypervigilant unfortunately living in this country. Like, you know, I know when I walk down the street, when I get out of my car, at 9 p.m. Even if I am, you know, only parking one block away, I pull out my, my pepper spray. And it's the

neighborhood that I live in that I know that I'm comfortable with. If I'm out walking my, you know, my roommate at the time, I'm kind of dog. I'm making sure that I'm looking over my shoulder. I'm making sure that I'm not being followed home. I'm making sure that when I stand in a hotel room, I bring a lock with me to, an additional lock to put on my door because I have to travel a lot for acting work. And you don't mean that Amazon link. It will. It's like $15 and you don't know where you're staying. And it's more common than you would think of people breaking into home hotel rooms because for whatever reason, I guess it's a little bit more accessible because there's so many people in and out. And so I wonder how much of the reason behind so many women

watching or listening to these crime podcasts is because we're already grown to being a little a bit more anxious and therefore concern about what can I do to make sure that I'm keeping myself safe and the situation that I would have even never expected would have been dangerous whereas I think men have a little bit more privilege of walking, you know, walking

around with like less concern about being taken in the middle of the night. Yeah. I think it's also interesting that like women love True Cry but for your podcast specifically, it's not about being killed.

It's not about being followed. Like maybe, and again, I'm just theorizing, but maybe females are like, I mean, I'm not going to rob a bank. Like, I'm not. I know. I need this. I need this information.

Yeah, I don't need this information. Yeah, I don't need this. They're like, probably in here. But they do need to know about, oh, this girl's husband cheated, that the wife killed her and her son like that's it's certain like I was listening to that whole thing I was like

if I had a beef with anybody it's the husband you gotta go yeah right teeth like Scott free well what what kills me and I was thinking to myself okay so by the way you know that most women when they murder someone it's by poisoning yes I did know she got a gun so it's not like First of all, you could have poisoned him. Secondly, you didn't even do that. You went with a weapon. You could have shot him. Like, this guy, like, it wasn't like, well, look, no, no, she had the opportunity.

No, she created the opportunity. She always had the opportunity to harm him. But she loved him. So he needs to stay alive because I love him. Yeah. I mean, it's hard because I've listened to all of Janair's video diaries. She left so like tens and tens of video diaries that her husband found. And I listened to them.

And they are so heartbreaking because it's hard to hear a murderer kind of justify herself or try to justify herself. But there's also the added layer of this woman was in a 25 year marriage and she thought she was deeply in love. like she was like this is the lover she was really like I'm sure she was deeply exactly and so I think for her

it was easier for her to think about I am going to take away everything that could make him happy rather than I'm going to take away his life because I think she loved him too much to kill him but wanted to hurt him in a way that would last forever

and I hate to see But I feel like this is a pretty common thing in society, no matter what gender you are. Like if you, I've seen guys watch their girlfriends talking to another guy and the guy immediately is like, hey, what are you doing? Like, back away from my girl. And she's like, I was actually just going to like grab a, you know, I was going to the bar to grab a drink and this guy started talking to me. But I think it is a lot easier to blame the person who you feel is a threat to you than the person they love. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, that's funny.

I never really think of the other person. Like if my girlfriend was flirting with or seeing someone else, I've never really up. That guy's gotten, he has no obligation to me. I know. I mean, yeah, this is a big problem that I have with, I'd say my female friends in general. Even myself, when I was cheated on at 18, like I was a kid,

but it was like you hated the girl. You hated the other person because it was like, how dare you do that? When in reality, like, I should just hate him, which I learned later. But that is, it's an interesting first instinct that a lot of females I've noticed have of, I do, I would want to push back on that just a little bit because I do find that it's common for men too. I think maybe it's just handled a little bit differently. If I don't, like, maybe the person thinks it's like fight, you know, like, but I was speaking for myself. No, most, I noticed most guys do exactly that. They think, oh, man, that guy, or that guy, I'm like, that guy, that guy's guy,

he just, this was a pretty girl in the bar he talked to. Yeah, what does this guy care about your relationship? I haven't even know you. Yeah, like, that girl, like, she didn't care about me. And, like, I shouldn't expect her to care about me. I should be pissed at my boyfriend or my husband. Like, yeah, but I get that of like, but I love him so much. I don't, I don't want, I'm going to.

project that hate onto someone else. So that's the trick in that. I have absolutely been there. I would rather be bad at it of like the seven girls that my boyfriend cheated on me with than my boyfriend who cheated on me. It doesn't make any sense. I know, but when you're in it. Yeah, I think

it's so hard. Because it's embarrassing. It's embarrassing to be like the person I love that loves me she like, like you don't want to be like oh, I'm done. Like he lied to me. I didn't see that. Like that's harder to deal with than well fuck that bitch like you know what i mean it's that it's it's it's the woman in the trailer part

talking to the police officer and he says you got to file charges he's beating you up and she's like but i love him but he is eating you up he's getting you i know yeah people are love is the most complicated part of being human i agree it's stressful let's cut it out let's just stop we should just marry our friends. No, I think that would be too hard to now. I'm going to marry. I'm not going to staple.

Just cut out romanticism. Yeah, like we're partners financially and that's it. So, I don't know. So what, where are you coming up with these stories? So we're lucky where we have a team and it was a TV show before. But the thing about this podcast is that, It's all online, right? So all of the crimes have to be from like the past 10 years, basically.

And whereas other true crime podcasts, you know, they can go to the 70s or the late 80s and like just fine. They have just so much just a treasure trove of crimes. Whereas with us, it kind of has to be a little more delicate because they're very recent. and yeah so we're kind of always have our eyes and ears out which Jillian you just explained that so much better than I did right when we started the podcast like cut that out because that was terrible not what you said what I said but exactly we we are provided we are provided the stories of these people's tragic murderers but at least for me I was not a person who consistently listen to crime podcasts I'd be more likely to listen to you

survival podcast, somebody who was, like, trapped in the wilderness for three weeks or survived being stabbed. Like, I just, like, I need something hopeful. And so our podcast, we really try to differentiate ourselves of having a slightly more NPR-esque approach with having, you know, as we discussed before, people from the actual crime speaking or having other people with different expertise coming in while still having the conversational element. of, you know, telling this story rather than coming in of, like, this is something that happened 60 years ago and this is really fascinating to us. Like, no, we really want to make sure we're coming from a place of what can we do to help keep our listeners safe. Okay.

That's just for some reason. It just reminds me of people watch my podcast all the time and they're always like, you know, you're so inspiring. I'm not trying to be inspiring. No, like you're picking up on me. You're like, I'm a dude in a soundproof room. What is it? I'm just talking. I'm so brave.

Yeah. But it's funny because you're going to, if you just listen to any story, you know, you're going to, like anybody who's listening to those, listen, the guy in that podcast and his girlfriend or mistress, whatever, never saw that coming, you know. You know, to me, it's like, hey, this could go bad. Like, I'm in a situation that's similar to that, and I don't see this happening. You know, like, like, this is, that's, that's something that you just would never contemplate. She's not yet threatening. She's not saying, I'm going to kill you. She's not, he doesn't know she's bottled gun.

He doesn't know any of this is happening. He's thinking it's an amicable, you know, contentious yet amicable divorced on a relationship that didn't work. out. So I think you always have to be kind of, you know, hypervigilant. Just listening to the story alone, people are going to come up with, hey, I need to be concerned about that. Yes. Yes. And I was going to make a point where if even one person is listening to our podcast and is like, oh, I'm about to go on a trip, maybe I shouldn't post the Airbnb I'm at. Or, oh, I know that the person, I'm I'm with is married. Maybe I should end this.

Or like, if one person can listen to these and change their life in the slightest way just to be a little safer than we did our jobs, 100%. Um, I was, I have a friend who never tell anybody when he goes on vacation. He'll tell you when he got back. Yeah. That's good. Or if I get robbed. And I'm like, well, maybe you shouldn't have friends that you think would

rob you. That's right. So have you thought about that? And he's like, I guess, yeah. I've never thought about it in the other direction because I'm always thinking what if something bad happens to me on vacation and then no one knows that I'm there. But yeah, I guess I do see the other thing

maybe not wanting to publicize that you're gone. Yeah, I mean, I think there's a difference between let me text my friends and tell the, I'm going to be gone. Can you water my plants or something? And posting on Facebook or Instagram all of your followers. being like, I'm in Hawaii and my own empty.

Like, I think, I think the problem is that people want to share everything immediately and get the likes and the views and they love it because it's in our, it boosts our serotonin and now we're just addicted to it. And I think that addiction feeds our urge to post immediately when we really don't have to. You can still get those views. You can still get those likes if that's what you're chasing when you post it when you're back. Like I think we are so used to immediate gratification now that we just need to realize that it doesn't matter. Social media can be fake.

You can pretend that you were on your vacation last weekend now. Like it's okay. Yeah. Yeah, I was going to say I'll, I'm constantly looking at like the YouTube, like, the you know just the posts and you know how they're doing and that sort of thing and last night I was actually laying you know and and it is it does make you feel good you know you does it is definitely I mean obviously that's everybody knows that but you know knowing it and stopping yourself from doing it are two different things you know yeah it's a functious effort

and I do it so instinctively like I'm just I don't even realize I'm doing it last night I was laying in bed. And remember my wife leaned over to me, looked at me and she just put your phone out. And I just went to Wow. Wow. We've been doing that at my house. If we're watching me together, we'll be like, be present. Be present.

She said, you're picking it up. She has nothing changed from five minutes ago. And I was like, you're right. Unless they felt this. Oh, my chat. There's a lot of people. We need it. That's a lot like, then you want to know, who are they?

Like, it's hard. I know it's hard. It's hard to not look at it first thing, too, when you first wake up. Yeah. Oh. Yeah. Because it can ruin your whole day. It could just, you could wake up, see one text, and be like, oh, my God, anxiety.

Wave. Yeah. I wouldn't, I would not know the, I've not memorized the terms about this in any way. But I know, like, whatever you wake up with your. your nervous system whatever state that you're in within the first five minutes of waking up is how the rest of your day will go

because your body has to fight to regulate from that moment on even if you give yourself five minutes to just deep breathe in the morning or just stretch in the morning like something to regular regulate yourself before you dive into social media is apparently really beneficial

I'm not doing that that's not what you're happening it's you got to try it's you're like I'm before I'm stretching I would wake up with so many text messages and I feel like as a person who I feel like a lot of my friends go

to me for emotional support because I love talking about feelings so I do the same I will wake up with like seven text messages of people saying please call me the moment you wake up I just like I had a really bad night and I'm like like, okay, I have to do this, this, this and this and this today, but I have to call this friend, this friend, and they'll be mad at me if I don't make time for them, but I have to make

time for all. I was like, no, that's not working for work. And then it's like, five o'clock and you haven't called them yet. And you're like, oh, my God. And then they're ready. And they're a tech. And like, my phone, no one sees me. My phone, you will not hear from me until 9.30. And unless you're banging me, I don't feel bad. Yeah. Yeah. Women are back. I'm different than I mean, guys heard, you know, bro, if somebody said I'm feeling vulnerable or something to me, I'd be like, wrap some dirt in it, bro. What are you doing? I literally saw a commercial yesterday.

It was for a car company. I can't remember what car. But it was like four guys in the car. One's getting married and they're like, they're like his groomsmen. They're on the way to his wedding. So they get in the car and like his best man's driving and he's in the passenger sea and they're like, oh, this will be so fun. And he's like, do you have the ring and his best. where he's like yeah of course he's like okay cool and then he like goes on his phone

and then he like goes on his phone for a second then puts it down and then all the guys in the car get a text and it's a group chat saying i love you guys and then they're like oh buddy and they go and like pat his shoulders up and i'm like wait you couldn't say that but no loud you have to text them in the same that's so sad it's so also biased how many of my girlfriends are are the ones texting me in the morning. And it's because they don't want anybody else to know. It's like, because you're so right, they would never go to their other girlfriends about it.

So it's sad. I was like, that's the saddest commercial I've ever seen ever. I don't even know what to say about that. I was going to say, I went, I did a speaking engagement recently, and I was in the airport,

And I have a friend named, his name's Isaac, but everybody calls him Zach. Anyway, he was texting me and I texted him. And he was like, how was it, bro? Like, if you need to call me and, you know, decompress or, you know, whatever. And I text him back back. I go, decompress. What are you talking about? That's a good friend.

That's a really good friend. And how he's not comfortable doing that again. So funny. Oh, God, he kills me. You need to be more vulnerable with him, friend. I do. Listen, the problem is my wife is not a touchy-feely person at all. She's very much.

Like, if I were to say, I don't know, I'm just feeling. Like, if I woke up and she's like, you're all right? And I'm like, I just, I don't know, I just feel depressed. Like probably every couple of months I get into a little bit of a slump. I just feel depressed this morning. is she will say, well, we're up some dirt in it. You got to do this today and that today. She's like, you could be depressed later.

Oh, okay. Just kidding. Me and your wife are not the same. I'm like, okay, yeah, I don't know what I was thinking. I'm sorry. Oh, you're like, come on. You can have my love to have sad days. Listen, my wife works as a marine mechanic.

So she works on boat engines all day. Oh, my gosh. She grew up. I mean, she grew up with like, Well, no, she just has a sister. Well, it's a very male-dominated field. Yeah. Yeah.

She, no, everything about her whole existence is male-dominated. How does she feel about this missing submarine? I haven't even asked her. It's funny, I talked to, I had a buddy that runs a podcast who was like, bro, have you heard about this? He's like, how horrible is that situation? I think they have like 20 hours left of oxygen. I don't know where they are. And, yeah, they're here.

Yeah. And like, now the only thing. that they can do is, like, here for them. So just hoping that they're, like, banging on it. What? Yeah, we have to find the, like, whales find each other. I'm not. So I don't, I, you, I don't need any adventure in my life.

They paid $250,000 each. And there's a father and a son. That's one family, half a million dollars dying in the ocean under the, and the worst case scenarios that they're trapped in the Titanic. They made it all the way down. Well, it was at the bottom of the ocean. Oh, my God. Contact an hour and a half into an eight-hour voyage.

So they could have made it down there. We have no idea. We don't know. I mean, we don't know. But the word thing scenario is they went down there. They were like, oh, well, let's just look anyway. And then got trapped, and now they're dying where? Thousands of people died.

See, this is the kind of thing. Oh, I'm not about my day. opening my phone because that gives me so much anxiety. I'm like, I need to breathe before that, like, before that pops up, that Google notification pops up my eye and handle it. Yeah. I'm thinking, like, I'm doing all right compared to those people. Like, I'm doing okay.

I don't need to go to speak. I don't need to. I don't need to climb Mount Everest and see all the dead bodies that I pass. Like, I just don't need to do those. I also don't really need to get on a roller coaster. I don't need to bungee jump. That's just me. But like...

I like those things. My perfect adventurous day is trying a new food and getting a massage. Like, that's... That is what I need from life. No submarine. No. Not even a fun. Also, my friends aren't allowed to do that either.

Like, if I have a friend who tells me that that's something that they want out of their lives to go to outer space and, like, it was so nice knowing you. But I can't have second anxiety. Think about where you're at. I can't. Like, I can't. I can't do it. You can't really do anything, though. Don't ever change your mind in that, please.

I will. Honey, Brodow was skiing and he died. I don't do that either. I don't see either. It's not happening for me. Yeah. Come here. I can tell you it's a funny story really quick

Courtney and I have been talking about how parents will put like it's graduation season right and so all these parents on front lawns are putting up banners being like congratulations Michaela on graduating from this specific

high school and going to this specific college it's like oh so now they have your child's name, school, address, like, photo, photo, awesome. And my mom listened to an interview that we did talking about that and just sent me the banner she made for me doing the exact same thing.

Did you not remember that? No, I was like 17, 18. I was like, what, nine years, eight years? I think you're a heckling it here we go. Yeah. Oh my God. Your interview reminded me that I made a banner for your graduation, not knowing that it could be unsafe when I posted it on social media.

And I'm like, yeah, I don't think any of us thought about that in 2016. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think people are thinking about it now. Yeah, exactly. Um, yeah, I'm not sure what I would do with that information, but yeah but I hear you I guess if you were some kind of you're a good person if you're not thinking too deeply about what you would do with that

in for yeah I mean you're not you know I don't know about that but I hear you um I hope you wouldn't so hey so I have a question you guys do you you you don't know you haven't watched my podcast or anything right not no not yet No, okay, so, um, so do you know why I do a podcast on true crime? You were involved past, in the past, in a past life. Oh, yes. A few years ago. A few years ago.

I just got out of prison about three, four years ago. Damn. I don't know why that. I feel like that was the fact that I registered when we were meeting last week. and then this week I've just, I don't know. Yeah, I did like 13 years in federal prison for bank fraud. Yeah. To be blunt, you caught people, right?

I mean, it's basically it was banks, but yeah, that's certainly part of it. That's cool. Well, I mean, how would I put this? Respect. That's cool, boss. I mean, like, it's banks. Thank God for people like her. I mean, you kill someone, like, I don't know, it's a bank.

No, I heard someone's feelings once. A few times. Maybe a few people. So, you know, I do like the con man thing. I used to shy away from that. But I think that's a very general term. And I think it definitely applies. Sure.

You know, so because there's certainly an amount of like, you know, you have to go up somebody, you have to give them a fake name. You have to convince them that you work somewhere, you don't work, and that this is what you intend to do with the money and have them show you the house or rent the house or do whatever it is. So you're certainly interacting with people. But ultimately, the goal is to borrow money from a bank, you know, to get a bank to lend you $300,000 or whatever it may be. Right, right. And, you know, but that typically I always think of, that's more to me of like a fraudster, someone who presents them. with fraudulent documents.

But, you know, so it initially starts with like a con, but ultimately to get the bank to lend the money, you have to provide them with false documents. But all of it has to make sense. So, but, you know, when the, when my booking agent mentioned this to me and was talking about the online dating, so it reminded me that when I got out of prison

and before I started dating my, white you know there was a period of time maybe six or eight months where I was dating different women well actually wasn't dating them because I went online I went to match.com I went to tender and I went to oh what was the other one that kicked me off like I got kicked off with three different dating apps because I was saying hey my name's Matt Kaugh I'm currently I'm a true crime writer I'm also an artist like this was before I started the podcast or anything I just gotten out of prison and so I went online and I was very honest with everybody yeah and at one point so I went on I had a few different dates initially when I was very honest I was getting the you know you go back and forth a little bit over the course of a day or two and then it's like hey I was like hey by the way you know be you could point where it's like, hey, you want to meet the person. Like, look, this is great, but we should probably meet for Starbucks or something because,

you know, having a little, you know, text message relationship is really not what I'm interested in it. I'd like to meet you. And then they're like, you know, yeah, yeah. And I'm like, look, but before we meet, I should probably tell you that I recently got out of prison. And I would just, you know, very briefly, give me a very brief synopsis and I'm more than happy to go into any of it with you.

And they would go, wow, listen. I actually had this. happened one time. One of the whims that, listen, that honesty is going to go a long way with me, and I really appreciate you saying that up front. And I would like, yeah, never heard from her again. And I remember thinking, wow, like, she didn't have to respond at all. She could have just, you know, walk me. But she actually went and wrote this nice text message and completely So that happened multiple times. So then I decided a girlfriend of mine at the time was like, listen, stop being honest with these women.

She was, you let them, you need to meet them first and then tell them, meet them, go on a couple dates with them. And I was like, that's never going to work because they know my name. She's like, no, they only know your name is, you know, Matthew. I was like, it doesn't matter. At dinner, they're going to ask my name. I'm going to tell them my name. They're going to Google me. If they like me at all, they're going to Google me.

Well, they're going to Google you to find out your Zodiac sign. So, yeah. For regarding, coming up. They're just going to be like, wait, this is not just like Zodiac. Maybe you're still a perfect match and it's worth sticking around. Well, listen, I have. Yeah, I'm. Oh, I am, but I met my wife.

Do you tell her when you first met her? She figured it out because we met in the halfway house. Oh. Right. She had just done five years in federal prison. Okay, cool. But there was, like I said, there was that six months. She'd gotten out of the halfway house before me.

And although we kept in contact, because we flirted in the halfway house. Cute. But she got out very quickly. And there's a huge age difference. There's like 18 years difference between the two of us. So she's way younger than me. And so I didn't, you know, think that much. much about it. Like I, I, I, I, I, I, she also, you know, she also had made several cracks and I thought,

eh, this is never going to happen. You know, this is probably not going to happen. So, anyway, that one girl that I went on a date with, I went on a date with her and maybe 10 minutes into the date that this. So I met a girl, we ended up going on a date. I didn't tell her. 10 minutes into the date, you know, things seem pretty good. And I said, hey, listen, I said, I'm wanting, I feel weird, saying this, but I've had a couple of bad experiences. So I want to go ahead and mention this real quick. I said, not a big deal. You know, I said, but I said, I, you know, I do have kind of a past. Like I, I recently got out of prison and, and I said, you know, a few months ago, I'm kind of starting my life over again, but I want to be honest about that. And I said, it was just bank fraud.

And she was, she was, you just got out of prison. And I went, yeah, I just got out of prison. And she was, she was, for bank fraud, she was, how long were you in prison? And I went, it was in prison for 13 years. I go, it's not a big deal. She's, they don't send people to prison for 13 years because it's not a big deal. And I mean, she's like really loud. And I'm like, yeah, and around like this, what do you? Like, okay, you know.

And she's like, I mean, I said, okay, well, it's really not a big deal. It's just bank fraud. It's just bank fraud. They sent you to prison. It must be a big deal. And I was like, well, I'm not saying it's not a big deal. I mean, but I'm saying it's not like I, it's not like I was driving around with someone.

body in the trunk of my car. And she's like, I mean, listen, she got so loud after about two minutes of this. I said, you know what? I said, we're done. We're done here. And I, and I said, I'm obviously, I said, well, I'm not bouncing back from this. And I said, and you're, you're really not handling this well. Yeah. So. You did 13 years of prison. You don't need someone to. Right. More on it. Like, that's not. Yeah. I had, so like I said, I had a couple of bad experiences. And then I had a couple of, I really had nothing but bad experiences. Anyway, at the same time, I ended up doing a podcast and, you know, like things drastically changed.

You know, they started going the other way. And I ended up going on a date with that, with my wife now. And we started dating and that worked out and everything was great, you know. But the dating thing was horrible. The online dating thing was horrible. Yeah, I'm interested to hear your perspective because you didn't grow up with dating apps. You experienced it before and you experienced after. And like you're a man.

So most of like what I hear from dating apps is like from my female friends. I'm curious to, yeah, to hear what you thought. Oh yeah, it was, you know, it's it's rough because these, you know, I, you know that like, women men swipe like they're that men are it's all right interested interested interested and women are like no no no no no no no no it's like wow like this is this is rough

but yeah it was just very um I think that women they're they have a they really there's really a high bar really a high bar that I just don't I don't know who's who's meaning that bar and the idea that you know the whole and then the whole felon thing like I have so many there's so there were so many strikes against me like I got to a point at one point I remember I was talking to my friend

Stacy and I said honestly I said I am seriously considering making a fake Instagram page a fake Facebook page and using a completely different name all new pictures all new no and that's what She said, she said, now, don't do it. Don't do it. I said, look, it's that bad. Yeah, that's, yeah. And she was like, yeah, but ultimately, if I, if that girl likes you, she goes, and then a month down the line, you tell her that, she's going to be so hurt. I'm like, it doesn't matter.

I'm never going to get there to begin with. Yeah. I mean, that's the thing of like the right person won't care or the right, the right person will know how to handle it. No. Yeah, I mean, I've not had luck on dating apps at all. Yeah, because I did, I want to check in because Jilling, you had a meeting at one. I don't know if you saw my text. You used to.

My phone, my, my, my call got canceled. Okay. Yeah. Like an online dating thing? They canceled. So it's my client. My client canceled. But yeah, I, uh, the scary thing is that, uh, recent statistics showed that 10% of sex offenders use dating sites.

So that's something, because it's not like you're on hinge. And it says drinking, yes, smoking, no, conviction, felon, and it's just, they don't specify. In fact offenders, too, you can look, it's very easy to look them up, assuming they're using the right name. Well, yeah. And also these are like only the sex offenders that have admitted to using dating sites. So that statistic is probably a lot higher. Not a lot higher, but significantly. So, yeah.

And one of our newer podcast episodes, it speaks about a woman who was divorced. She was 40 years old, had three kids. And she joined a dating app. She joined OkCupid and started dating this guy. guy and dated him for a month. Like they were, they were actively seeing each other. They go to a baseball game. He gets drunk. They go back to her place. And the next morning, her car and her are missing, but her phone purse, while everything's at her house. So her mom comes, her ex-husband

comes because he's dropping off the daughters. And they're like, we can't find her. They text this guy that she's dating. He doesn't answer. Come to find out long story. short, this guy that she had been dating for a month was homeless, an alcoholic, got drunk, killed her, drowned her in her bathtub, chopped up her body, and, like, put all of the parts in separate recycling bins all around Seattle. Yeah, this is our episode that's coming up on Monday, and he claims that he doesn't remember doing any of these things. yeah and they were dating for a month and Courtney and they're like how do you not know he's homeless like how but like how would you find that there's just yeah I feel like how I don't you know I think it's actually we don't want to victim blame her at all like yeah it's it's oddly it's oddly understandable which because you would think that it I feel like it's maybe a little bit easier in our age group like I find that if I'm going to date somebody I know I have at least one mutual friend

But I feel like it's a little bit different in a different, if you're not in the like the young millennial Gen Z experience. It's like if exactly as you were saying earlier, if you put on a fake name and you don't give your entire backstory, you don't put up fake images, like you really don't know who's, you know, who you're talking to. I have a question about your time in prison. Did you notice that a lot more people that were coming in had crimes related to? the internet what you mean the area you mean like like like that's the broadest sense like oh i found this girl on craigslist or oh i you know stole from something i saw on facebook marketplace like did you notice anything where it was like oh that's that's a different way of going about

that crime that's kind of new because of the internet well um i i i think just general question. Yeah, because I didn't, I think that there were crimes that started happening and I started hearing about that weren't really crimes when I was out there or they had, you know, they'd obviously just started doing them more internet based, but it was the same type of crime. I'll give you an example for. Yeah. So, you know, there's a, the name they gave it was the drop. It's call it they call it the drop like that's like the dark world kind of you know oh he runs he does he does the drop well the drop is basically it's income tax fraud so I get your social security number and your full name and I file for your income taxes before you can and so I get a check for

$8,000 well when it was initially being done it was all paper like guys are mailing it in they're getting a check back well of course you know as things became automated you know, through the, you know, through the internet, people started filing online. So they're filing online and then they're getting their, the, the money wired to them on green dot cards or, you know, prepaid debit cards. Yeah. So it became more and more web-based crime. And of course, you know, they can also put up kind of a backstops, you know, kind of wait to stop it. But, you know, these guys get around that. And then the ways they get around it are also in. internet base they start using you start hearing about socket servers and yeah um different types of

you know using spoof cards like there was no spoof card when i was out there uh there was and so there were more and more frauds where you were hearing about i was like well how did you do this they're like oh i used a spoof app so they thought this and they thought that or i had it overnighted to my house and you know and then i just or overnighted to someone else's house and i just waited outside and I got the prepaid debit card out of the, out of the mailbox. And so now I have a prepaid debit card that was mailed to their house, but I grabbed it. And I was always, how did you know to do that? Oh, you can follow the track. You can track it the whole time on the website. And you're like, oh, okay. So there were all these little things. There was a guy one

time, and I've mentioned this conversation on my podcast a few times where the guy was telling and kind of pitching his story like, hey, you know, because when I went to prison, I wrote, I started writing guys true crime stories. That was one of the things I did. I wrote like eight books and about 24, 23, 24 different synopsies of true crime stories. What, um, book deals, you know, I was doing all this for myth, prison, too. That's crazy. So I, that's why when I got out, towards the, towards my last few years, guys are telling me,

You need to do a podcast. And I was like, a what? Oh, yeah, because you were in prison for 14 years. You were like, what's a podcast? I mean, YouTube had just come out a year before I'd never been on it. The word podcast wasn't even invented until like 2010 or 11. Wow. So.

So you just heard the word Instagram and you were like, guess I'll figure that out later. Exactly. But you talk to guys, guys are coming to me saying, you need to start a podcast when you get out and tell true crime stories. You're a great storyteller. And I was like, okay, I don't, what's a podcast? They were like, oh, well, it's kind of like a radio show. And I was like, oh, it's live. And they're like, no, it's kind of like this. And they start explaining. And it makes no sense to me. I was like, but like you said, I'll figure it out. Yeah. So I remember, so guys were constantly coming and pitching stories to me. Because I'd gotten some guys in

Rolling Stone magazine and option their film right. Wow. And, and so now guys are thinking, hey, everybody thinks they have a story, right? Like, I've got a great. story. You got to help, help me out, write my story. It was like, what's your story? Yeah. So I had a guy one time tell me about his story was, I think he got like half a million or a million dollars by defrauding Apple. But what he did was he would have people open up a corporation. If you had a corporation, you could go into the Apple store and they would give you like 10 phones on your corporate account. Wow. So he'd get the 10 phone. He would then pull the SIM cards out. And then he'd send them overseas for like, he'd get 500 bucks a piece. Yeah. And so these people, he would pay those people like 100 bucks. They'd make like $1,000 or $2,000 for their, you know, sometimes they'd open up a couple different corporations.

And he'd send them off. I think he did it to the tune of like close to a million dollars, half a million to a million. Well, when he's explaining it to me, I remember he kept saying, you know how on the iPhone, you know how on the iPhone, you know how on the iPhone, you know how. how on that iPhone and I finally stopped them and I said bro I said stop saying that I said I've never seen an iPhone wow and so no one even snuck them in like you would you didn't even see him no I don't know and I'd never seen one other than being maybe on TV they didn't come out till what 2009 yeah the first ones remember the first and they weren't like hugely were popular but they

weren't like everywhere yeah no so wow that's crazy yeah I'm sure there are certain crimes where you're just like, I literally have no idea what you're talking about or how you did that and I can't wrap my brain around it. That's so wild. Yeah, the technology these days and the people that, I mean, the things that these kids are capable of Courtney, actually, we were talking about this recently. There's this video on Instagram and, or it was a TikTok and this guy posts a sandwich. He's in New York City and he's like this which I've ever had in my entire life and I'm gatekeeping it. I'm not. I'm not. telling you where I am. That was the TikTok he posted. A guy duet, do you know what a duet is? Yes. Yeah, so he basically like duetted it and was like, I will tell you where that is. He saw the photo of the sandwich, saw that there was a little bit of a light blue wrapper

and then took the portion above the guy's head and like kind of looked at that and saw what kind of build it was. So based on the rapper, he was able to look up certain like delis in New York City that had that specific wrapper. Google imaged all of the restaurants, found the specific one that he was sitting in. And he was able to say, you are at this exact restaurant. And then he walked a hundred feet across the street to sit and eat it at this spot. Nice. And then in addition, the way that he did it, he sat at the exact table that the guy was sitting at. and took the same amount of bites out of the bagel and laid the bagel down on the wrapper in the same way.

She just caught out. And so that we can see that it's literally the same. Yeah, it's crazy and it's scary to think what people are capable of because you're like, oh, that's a funny video. But the idea of like a celebrity posting, you know, a video of them and they're in their backyard. They're like, you know, I'm just enjoying a day. You can't really see their property.

But people are able to look at the sky and go, okay, look at the telephone poles that are there. How are they placed? There's a tree exactly in between these. And they're able to find people. It's nothing. Did you see the documentary, don't fuck with cats? Yes, it's so good.

Yeah, it's a, it's amazing what people can do. Exactly. And those are just, Joe Schmoz, those are those people like you and me just add their computer on Reddit, just like, I'm just going to look on Google images and Google Maps and I'm going to find everything I can. And it's like everyone's a PI now. I think that what drastically changed from when I got out, one of the things about my crime is that my crime now, I realize my crime now where I had to go in the bank. like there was just no way for me not to go into the bank not to show my face not to open corporate accounts

not to meet with lawyers and doctor or not doctors what I'm lawyers and closing agents and real estate agents like I had to meet with these people in person. It was the way it was but now my crime can be done by sitting in a Starbucks with

a laptop I can I can view the house rent the house open the bank accounts apply for the loans from the banks, close the loans remotely with using remote notarries, notaries. I don't know what that is.

Notaries at the closing, because you don't have to go to it. In most states, you don't even have to go to a closing anymore. You do it remotely. Yeah. And then have them wire the money to the bank accounts that you've opened

and then have that money transferred on to prepaid debit cards or, you know, whatever, prepaid cards or do anything. Buy crypto with it, by gold. have gold shipped to an abandoned house or to a house this new... Right. I mean, like, my crime could be done completely remotely now.

Yeah. And, you know, so that's one of those things that's just like, like, there's, there's no aspect where anybody has to see me at this point. So... And to your point, you could be a totally different person. Right. Right. Well, yeah.

I mean, it didn't, I mean, as far as like, like, like identities are concerned, it didn't matter anyway because I had fake identities. I had fake passport. I had, when I say fake, I mean, like, they weren't fake. They were, I walked in the DMV and they gave me a driver's license or they gave where I, I got a, the state department is shut. Yeah. Yeah, the US State Department issued me almost 25 or 24, um, I've had 24 passports in different people's names. I've had 27 drivers licenses in different people's name. Wow. Yeah. But you don't even And to do that, I don't. Can you hear me? Yeah. Yeah. Listen, I had, I got so many tickets as a guy. I went to driving school as him. I, one time I stole someone's identity and then I changed his, legally had his name change. Why? I just want to see the process. I had nothing to do. I didn't need it done. I didn't need to do it. But, you know, you never know. I just, you know, I'm bored for this whole guy. fine

that guy's fine they're like your name is not James it is and he's like the whole lot of me last name from Eckert to Johnson and it was just to go just to go through the process

I just wanted to deal with the process because I figured at some I was kind of trying to figure out how to create an identity that didn't connect to anybody right you know So it's like part of that process is maybe, I thought maybe one of the, maybe it's getting somebody's identity, if not using it, and then altering their name and then maybe getting a new social security number issued to them. Like that would ultimately a different name, different social security number.

How would you get a different social security number? Because even if you change your name, wouldn't it still track? It would still track. But keep in mind, my fear was that this person might die. So if I were, let's say, I started surveying homeless people. people to get their information because they're not they're not going to come across the fact that they're not going to work right so if I interview you if I interview and what I did to do that was I would survey them I'd say I was a I would say I work for the Salvation Army and we're taking

we're taking surveys to determine where we place our next homeless facility and it pays $20 cash right now and they'd be like yeah what do you need bro and I go here's 20 bucks and then they'd answer the questions then I'd go online and I'd order their birth certificate, social security card, driving record, where they went to their high school transcripts, and I registered a vote in their name. Then once I got that information, I'd go into a DMV in a state where they'd never had a driver's license and I get a driver's license issued to me. Then, of course, I'd get a passport because why not? Um, and then, yeah, I mean, they're not going anywhere. But I figured, you know, what I need to do is, like, how do I get

this? Like, I still have this guy's name. I can change his name. I can change his name. name. And then I would, my plan was, I didn't get this far because I ended up getting arrested. You know, this was a, like it was just little things I was doing. But yeah, probably that far. Well, I think it would have what, okay, so here's, here's how you can get your social security number chain. One, obviously, federal government, a judge can say this person needs it for identity or for safety purposes. The other thing you can do. So for instance, the witness protection program. Oh, right. Okay. judge will sign off saying, look, where they're changing his name, he's getting a new social security number. Or if you go to law enforcement and if you were to say, hey, I have identity theft and you show law enforcement where you had your identity stolen, you got to have a police report. Let's say six months later, you say, hey, I cleaned my my identity up, but they stole it again. So if you can show three or four times over the course of a couple of years, you can go to, you can go to social security administration

and show them the documentation and they will give you a new social security. Right. Because the idea is that someone's their social security numbers and they're not giving out. Right, right. It's becoming a lifelong problem. So if you did that and you change your name, essentially

you've now getting, you could go to another state and get driver's license, a driver's license, everything in the new name. So if that homeless person dies, like, first of all, most of the time they die, they don't even know who they are. Yeah.

You know, they don't have criminal records. So a lot of them die and they're just, you know, because this is a homeless person, he died, and then they bury him. So I thought that way I can get a new identity. Another thing is stalking. If you're being stalked and you can show repeatedly that someone has followed you to multiple addresses, you can also request social security change. Yeah. But these are things that take years and years.

Yeah. So, getting a fake ID, fake passport, fake documents, what did that all cost you? Wait, what do you mean? Like, I'm assuming you paid someone each time you had to steal an identity, or did you do it all yourself? No, no, I'm a hands-on guy. So I would- Like, you're not my fake ID from someone, but you just like. No, no. No, no. What I did work. He was at the DMV. I worked at the DMV. It costs me $25. It costs me $20 to get his information because he might. I want to trick the person into giving it to me. I don't want him to know. He gave him. Right. Right.

He's not thinking, hey, this guy's using my identity. No. Right. He's thinking I did a survey. I got $20. And two years later, he doesn't remember doing that. So once I get his information, I get an ID or a driver's license. Once I have the driver's license, I then apply for a passport. And the U.S. State Department issues me a passport. And I've traveled on these passports. Like I've been to, while I was on the run, while I was number one on the Secret Service's most wanted list, I went to Mexico, Jamaica, Greece, Italy, Croatia. I mean, I went, you know, and this is so unlawful.

walking through passport control, giving them a passport, and they're like, hi, Mr. Eckert, how are you doing? I'm doing great. Yeah. How are you? And they're like, business or pleasure. I'm like, pleasure. You're on vacation. You're like, oh, wow, all right, you know. Damn. That's wild. So I guess what would your advice be to someone who's trying to be safe on the internet? Hmm. I don't know. I was such a bad experience.

I felt like they were, they were, they were, they were being too vigilant. Um, honestly, you know, the problem is, is that I think people in general, if they're, if they're sharp, they can fool you. Yeah. And, and honestly, I'm such a huge believer in intuition. Yeah. Something doesn't feel right. It's not right. Like, like, like something's wrong and it's probably better to be safe.

and say, hey, you know, like, hey, let's meet at a public place. Hey, you know what? I know this is weird. Can I get a picture of your driver's license and send it to my friend? Like, let's face it, that person, one, if they said, no, I'm not going to do that. I don't feel right about that. I got it. I totally get you.

Invasion of privacy. I understand. It was nice meeting you. See you. I have no problem giving you away my driver's license. Yeah. So if that's odd. So if you wouldn't do it and you understand that I'm a woman or I'm a man and I feel odd about

the situation, something's not right, and you don't want to do that, something's up. Let's go to the next one. And if the person really was thinking about harming you, he's probably just going to move on to his next victim. You're not going to stop that guy. All you're going to do is have him move to the next house. It's like putting an ADT, you know, a little sign in your front yard. Like, it's like, do I hit that guy who I know has an alarm or go to the next one? I'm just going to go to the next one. Yeah. You know, because that's all you're really doing. You're not going to, you know, grab these guys and get to throw them in jail. You're really just saying move on to your next victim.

Yeah. Somebody's going to get victimized. So you say, like, don't be shameful about it at all. Ask for whatever information you want before. Why not? I don't see anybody being offended by that. Like, if they were, you know, you probably dodged a bullet. If somebody was like, what's a big deal?

What's the, okay, something's up. Like, you've got an attitude. Like, you should be on your best behavior. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And I don't know. Luckily, like, I feel like people in my generation kind of get it. Like, some guy was like, oh, can I order you a drink? Like, because I was running like three minutes late. And he was like, oh, can I get you a drink? And I was like, no. He was like, why? I was like, because I like to see the bartender pour it. Right.

And he was like, oh, I didn't even think about that at all. And I'm like, I know. But I have to. I have to think about these things. and now there's things that you know if you go up to a bartender and you ask for an angel shot they know to give you water and if you ask for I can't remember what it is I should know it off the top of my head but if it's like oh an angel shot like with ice

or on the rocks or something then they know they need to call the police and I think that's such an amazing thing that all bars are doing now but yeah yeah it's scary out there what I looked for, what I would talk to guys and when I was in prison, because, listen, you know, I'm really interested in unique stories because I heard so many of them. And it's like, if you're like, you're a poor black guy that was raised in the projects and your mother's kind of, you know, maybe she's, you know, doing tricks on the side and you're, you don't know, know your father or maybe he's in and out of jail and he's a drug addict.

then that story is you know tragic and what's more tragic is probably that it's it's so common yeah so stories like that when I would hear them I was like you know I get it but what makes it unique you know like tell me something that makes your story unique because I mean it's horrible and I know there's a story there but it's it's it's like mom's stories like I've heard them all they're just yeah I'm done with mom stories like I've not I've never written a mom story because I'm just not interested yeah so many movies and that story was like okay tell me something unique so what was it what makes it interesting what makes it different than that guy over there that guy that guy that guy and that's what I thought so I always waited for that like if the guy came

and said look this is the story you're like okay okay and he was like and we were working with the head of the task force we grew up with this guy we were friends and he was telling us what drug dealers to hit and we were robbing them with him. I was like, you're telling you we were working with the police to rob drug dealers. And he's like, right. And he got busted and went through it. Right. Then you're like, now you've got a story. You didn't have before. And that's how I felt when I listened to your episode. I was like, okay, there's an affair. Something bad's going to happen. This woman's going to kill her. I mean, I thought the wife's going to try and kill the husband or is going to. But then you were talking to the husband.

And I thought, well, somebody I'd like, I don't understand like, oh, the wife tried to kill him. Maybe he killed her. Like as it was going. Yeah. I'm trying to figure it out. And, you know, when when you got to that plot twist, I was like, like that it just didn't see it. Yeah. And I love true crime because it really is the whole, you know, truth is stranger than fiction. Because that was a great, that was great. It came out of nowhere. You built up. It really, you really like. You really like. the characters, you understood them, you felt for them. Yeah. Bam. Yeah. I wish Courtney was here to talk about this because I think what makes us feel so strongly about this podcast and why we care so much about making it good is because, you know, I mean, we're actors.

Like we met getting our BFA and acting at the University of Michigan. So we know how to tell a story. That's literally our job is to empath. empathize and tell a story as accurate and respectful as possible. So we always keep in mind, like the families are going to listen to this. And they're all so recent. So these people's friends and families and loved ones are all very much around. They're all living their lives. So the thought of, you know, we just want to tell it as respectfully. You want to drive me respectful, right? Yeah, absolutely. And I think our team could recognize that

we were able to be good storytellers based on our training and just how we come at any text. Even if we come out of play, it's like, how do I make these characters real? How do I make the audience care about these people? And with, I'm at My Murder Online, it's obviously a little easier because they're real people and these are real stories that people need to hear and learn from. It's also a good, the whole online thing is a good connection because so many people have dated online. everybody can kind of empathize, they can kind of think. Yeah, I get that.

Yeah, I could. And everyone needs to know how to be safe. Like, and to the people who don't feel like they need to be safe, you need to know how to be respectful. You need to respect someone else's boundaries. If they are trying to be, you know, as safe as possible and you're like, well, I'm obviously not going to drug your drink, like, calm down. Like, no, you should be respectful and understand what the dangers are.

Yeah, I was going to say, I mean, the guy and the husband in that episode, he didn't think he was in danger. No. And he didn't think that his wife was capable of that. Right. And think about it. Like, even if it didn't happen to you, it's fine. Guess what? The, you're, what's probably going to be your new wife is now, it now died.

Yeah. No. And even if it, and she could have killed him. Like, she was capable of it. Yeah. So, but she was. So, yeah, it's, you just never know. Yeah, I don't know.

Thanks. Yeah, you don't know it. I mean, love drives people to do crazy things. Yeah, we're a horrible species. Well, okay, well, so, listen, Gillian, I appreciate you coming on. And, Courtney, you were great too. Yes. I know.

We'll tell you. We'll put the link in the description box. Mm-hmm. Right? So I don't know. Do you have any other, if you guys have any other social media that you want to push, you can send me the links and my editor will put it in there.

Great. Yeah. You can follow me at Gillian Lee Garner and Courtney is at Courtney, though. Hey, I appreciate you guys watching. Do me a favor if you were interested in checking out the, I met my murderer. online, which I, like I said, I watched one of them. It was really good. Super interesting, super unique stories. Check the description box. We're going to have the link there. Also,

if you like the video, do me a favor. Get the subscribe button. Hit the bell so you get notified of videos just like this. Share the videos because that really helps me and leave me a comment in the comment section and I'll try and respond to the comment. You want to get in touch with me and you want to be on the show. You have a true crime story. Then send me an email. My email is also in the description box. Really appreciate you guys watching. See ya.