Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - Real Estate Con Woman Steals Millions | Jacqueline Purcell

Episode Date: May 25, 2025

Jacqueline Purcell, a former title search company owner shares her journey from running a booming but ethically compromised mortgage and title business to being convicted of fraud and rebuilding her life after prison by founding a nonprofit that helps women reenter society. Connect with JacquelineWebsite: https://evolutionreentry.orgGet 50% sitewide for a limited time. Just visit https://GhostBed.com/cox and use code COX at checkout.Do you want to be a guest? Fill out the form https://forms.gle/5H7FnhvMHKtUnq7k7Send me an email here: [e-mail] you extra clips and behind the scenes content?Subscribe to my Patreon: https://patreon.com/InsideTrueCrime Follow me on all socials!Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/insidetruecrime/TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@matthewcoxtruecrimeDo you want a custom painting done by me? Check out my Etsy Store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/coxpopartListen to my True Crime Podcasts anywhere: https://anchor.fm/mattcox Check out my true crime books! Shark in the Housing Pool: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0851KBYCFBent: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BV4GC7TMIt's Insanity: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08KFYXKK8Devil Exposed: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08TH1WT5GDevil Exposed (The Abridgment): https://www.amazon.com/dp/1070682438The Program: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0858W4G3KBailout: https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/bailout-matthew-cox/1142275402Dude, Where's My Hand-Grenade?: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BXNFHBDF/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1678623676&sr=1-1Checkout my disturbingly twisted satiric novel!Stranger Danger: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BSWQP3WXIf you would like to support me directly, I accept donations here:Paypal: https://www.paypal.me/MattCox69Cashapp: $coxcon69

It's so easy to steal. It was so ridiculous the way the system ran that I started to get. That criminal thinking, the client who stole $45 million from Meta, how is somebody able to steal $45 million? There's holes. I was dating the same guy since I was 15, 23, his girlfriend of five years called me on the phone, the night before a wedding, and yet I still married him. Really?

Yeah. How'd that conversation go? I remember her calling. You remember three-way calling back then? So I was on the phone with my... They still had three-way calling. Oh, they do? I don't know.

I have a cell phone. I don't know. But back and then, the three-way calling on that regular rotary, I was on the phone and the phone, I was on with my maid of honor, and the phone clicked over. So I said, hold on the phone. She goes, you know who this is? And I said, no, I don't.

And she goes, Melissa, you know, I could say his name. Tom, because he's my ex-husband, Tommy's girlfriend. And I said, I'm sorry because I've been his girlfriend since I was 15. And, well, he probably didn't tell you. I took my keys, got my car, went over to the apartment where he was working, and my mother followed me. I'm telling you, I wouldn't have been in prison for a mortgage fraud. I would have been in prison for I I would have hammered him over the head with a pan if I could have at that point but what is the idiot do? What do you think? I got married yeah I married him. What did he say? Did you mention it? He said to me yeah my bad he's that not is that not is that not okay having a girlfriend he's like what are you talking about we're just friends yeah and I mean really

you're just let's go to see let's go to her house. Let's see. Mind you, the girl is like 16. So now I have an issue because I'm like, maybe they are just friends. We go over there and he's sitting there. Right? No.

Right? I'm not, you know. And the thing is they're pretending their friends until he got up and knew where the glasses was. He went and got himself a glass of water. He knew exactly where it wasn't the cabinet. And I thought, they're not just friends. He just knew exactly where.

the glasses were. So she, when you got there, she said, we're just friends? Yep. Oh, I thought it was, but on the phone. On the phone, it was different. But then she was covering, he was covering. He's there in front of me. I'm scared.

I want to know what's going on. I want to know. And he kept saying, nope, we're friends. And then he got up, walked over to the kitchen, opened a cabinet, took out a glass. And I said, you're not just friends. How do you know where the glasses are? I don't care if you're just friends or not. And I had 400 people come to my wedding.

Italian, I didn't even know half of them how to speak. I mean, half of them didn't speak English. So I remember my mother saying to me, well, we do have 380 people coming. And my father saying, just go on your honeymoon. And I just, I don't know, I just married him. Well, I mean, you, at least you knew up front about their girlfriend. Most people have to wait a few years. Yeah.

Yeah, so I could hate him right up front. Yeah, four or five years later. Then you find out, oh, you have a girlfriend? Oh, yeah. Our wedding was, you know, and now I look at the pictures and it's hysterical because my face is the whole time. And I stayed married to him for 10 years, 10 years. And for 10 years, he's a legend. Yeah, he's led, right?

He's the best that's ever done it. Did you ever say he's a legend? Night, pulled it all, 10 years. Legend, sorry. Ter years. A horrible man, yeah. He's definitely not a legend. To this day, he's not a legend.

So what do you do when you're married and your marriage is shit and you think it's, you know, it's all facade? You have kids because they're going to fix everything. Yeah. So as we did, we had two beautiful kids. My son was born first and he's just something between a mother and a son. He's your son. And my beautiful daughter was second.

And so for a while there was great because I pretended he didn't exist. The daughter just found out she could take, oh no, she knows. I'm like, take care or leave you. All three of my kids, they know. Jimmy, we're close. They all say it to this day. They're like, really?

You know, Thomas comes home and you roll the red carpet out. Where's our red carpet? No, it's funny because, yeah, I stayed married for 10 years, but we thought kids would fix it somehow. And somehow it did. I didn't have to talk to him anymore. He didn't exist. My kids existed.

It was wonderful. He worked in theater. I worked in theater. He's a sound man for the Schubert Theater. Oops. Now everybody knows who he is. I was going to say, do you want to give her a cell number? Oops.

You do not cut that. Yeah, no, I did wardrobe. So it was kind of funny. So I moved theaters. I went to a different theater. And so we worked very opposite hours. Really, it was, you know what, I look back at it. I don't hate him.

We were 15 years old. Neither one of us dated anybody else. We should not have gotten married. We were really good friends, but we were never in love. When you got, how old were you when you got married, though? I was 22. Okay. Yeah.

Well, the, and he's 22? No, he was 24. And the 24 year old with a 16 year old friend. friend that was not yeah questionable oh well you know I'm a woman so what does a woman do throughout your whole life when you make one mistake you bring that up for 10 years I brought that up to him and I have a very big issue today with age very big issue if a guy is so much older than you know it does something to me but um I do recognize that we were just young and he wasn't about he wasn't bad father never once missed child support

Never once stopped seeing the kids when he met his wife, which was pretty sad. He still has a relationship with my daughter. He does not with my son. But that makes me sad. He should. But it is what it is. That's between them. I try not to.

So what were you doing by the time you got divorced? Were you still working in the theater? or were you working at a title company at this point? No, no. I was working in a theater going to school. Really nothing. I was doing, he just wanted me home as a mother. I'd gained a lot of weight.

I lost all my self-esteem. I didn't know who I was. I was a mom. That's it. I was a mother. I went to every game. I went to every function. I went to every field trip.

That's what I did. And I was self-employed. I was always self-employed. I did some business consulting. I set up some businesses for people, but otherwise I was a mom. And working with theater. Theater's a lot of work.

I mean, theater came back then, the Schubert Theater was the start of Broadway. So we would do the opening for Broadway and then it would move to Broadway. So it would come in. We'd build the show. It'd be there for a month. We'd build it.

We'd get it all ready to go to Broadway. Then it would go to Broadway. So it's a lot of fun. we had a lot of fun and even though I really deep inside couldn't stand them he was still a friend right we had a lot in common so it was kind of a strange dynamic it was a very unhealthy toxic dynamic um so what so after that ends what what do you do then for for work i mean i'm assuming you're not supporting yourself working so yes i left and moved back with the parents.

That's always a good. 32 years old, two kids. Always a good day. Yeah. You know? Yeah. I'm real happy when they came and that's, that's really the defining moment that lets you know everything's going right.

Yeah. It was going perfect. I moved backward. I lost the house, you know, but I was smart. I took $3,000. They offered it in a deed and Lou. So they said, you know, give us your house with all your cabinets. We'll give you $3,000.

Right. When, hello, if I took the cabinets and sold them, I would have made more than that. But in reality, I just swans it out of it and moved back to my parents. And I was lucky that I did have them in a way, you know. So I moved back to a situation with two kids where I had to be home by 11. I'm thinking, okay, I'm 32 and my parents wouldn't babysit unless I was working. Right.

So I'd have to hire a babysitter to come babysit if I wanted to actually go do something. So I pretty much didn't do a lot of anything except start a new company. and I had nowhere to go, didn't know what to do. My brother owned a title search company. I had been in a notary public. He was doing mortgage closings with notaries. So he said, you know, you want to do some notary? You know, I can get you extra work.

And I'm like, okay. So I went in, I started doing notary because I was doing six a day, six notary closings a day, make really good money. Yeah, I was going to say, what does that pay? Yeah. Are these? 100 bucks. It was 100 bucks then, back then for notary.

So that's five or six hundred bucks a day? Yeah, yeah. I mean, they don't need to do anything else. Yeah, I was pretty happy with it. You'd think. But I started recognizing,

my brother wasn't very good at running a company. So he brought in this girl, a friend of his, that's a wife, a friend of his, to run the company for him. So he gave her 50% of his company. I started seeing she was stealing money from him.

Right. So I'm like, you know, I said to him, I think she's stealing money. So she found, hired me. Right. So I'm like, okay. What am I going to do? So I started my own company. Was she still in money? Yeah, she was. Okay. She was, she was still a money. Yeah, yeah. That comes out later, but I'm sure you never, I'm sure you never mentioned that to your brother. No, I did. That's why I got

fired because I told him. Yeah. After he, she got caught. Again, I'm a woman. Of course, I was going to go back to the space. Every time I'd see him, I'm going, huh? Right. Did I tell you? Um, but what I did was I had to look at it a different way. my brother's title search company only worked for attorneys. And it wasn't going to hurt him. So I said, okay, what can I do? So I decided to cut out the middleman. I went to title companies.

I said, I'll do your title search. I did not know how to title search. So I was doing notary closings. And one of my clients said, you know how to title search? Of course I do. And he's like, all right, we're going to send you a few. He sent me 42 title searches. And I'm like, shit, I better get to town hall and figure this out.

There's no YouTube. Yeah, there was no, you know. Can't look it up on YouTube. Yeah, and back then, nothing was even online. So you had to go to the grantor, grantee books. You could not just pop it up on a computer like you can't today. It took me about a couple hours. I figured it out.

It's not very difficult. And then I started getting really, really good at it and started hiring people and hiring people. And then my brother's company went out of business. And he stopped speaking to me. I didn't mean to drive you out of business. I was trying to help you. I was trying to help him. I never went to an attorney.

But, right. What's the same? Ben. Ben. Here's what I'm going to do for you, Ben. I'm going to give you $100 of closing. You can work for me. 75 because I'm still a little salty about you fired me because of this chick that

rang out of business. But the thing is my brother was best title search company in Connecticut. Title searcher in Connecticut. So I really didn't need him because my other searchers were idiots. So it's kind of like I've really. need some good searchers and um so i never know i never made him feel that way he wasn't speaking to me for so long and so when he closed i just said to him i really need you right i need you to come here and and help me so he did and he did bring our the level of clients to a different now

i was able to go after attorneys because i wouldn't then and business started booming because it was like 2006 at this time. Right. And 2006 houses were, I mean, it was booming. So for about a year and a half. Well, yeah. And then, you know, my girlfriend needed a job. So I'm like, oh, sure. Well, how are you? You can be my business manager. And then my niece needed a job. And she became our notary closing person. And we were doing about 20 a day, 20 closings a day at that point. And then we brought in, oh, yeah. So you're just doing closings. You're not the type. And churches. Are you, do you open a title company? Do you become a, do you actually?

Yes. Okay. In Connecticut, you have to have an attorney to issue titles, different from New York. All right. And so, yeah. You don't have to have an attorney here. Yeah, see, see. And in Connecticut you do.

So I had a friend who was an attorney. I said, like, I'll give you 49% of the company. I need an attorney. We can't do title. I don't really, I'll give you 49% of the company. and we can open up the title side. And then I became a loan officer. And I went to work for Wells Fargo and GMAC.

I learned how to do that we brought in our own mortgage company. So we had a one stop shop. It was mortgages, title, title searches, notaries. We were boom and I had over 50 people working for us, mostly family. And wasn't recognizing that my need, was giving out the notary portions of it less than I was making because she just wanted to get it filled.

So the money, we were losing a lot of money. What do you mean she was giving out the note? So we would get like a hundred bucks for a notary. Right. We'd have to find a notary to do it. So we had this whole list of a notary because nobody ever was independent contractors.

If a notary would say, well, I'll do it for 125. She'd say, okay, just to get it done. Right. And then... I can see that every once in a while, but yeah, that's not a business. Yeah, it was just wrong business. It was my fault because I went, I was a loan officer now. I wasn't really paying attention because it was growing so fast and my whole family was there.

And I just wouldn't fail. That's my whole problem in life. I won't fail. Right. I won't quit. Not fail. I won't quit. So I'm thinking, okay, how can I?

this. In the meantime, business was doing great, but we were. I sold the most loans for Wells Fargo in a one month period and made the least amount of money out of all the loan officers. And nobody seemed to tell me, you're not really good at this because I just, I have a hard, I can't close. Not a good closer. So I'm a good figuring things out, but I can't, I can't close because I felt bad, especially if there's kids. I'd have women come in with their young kids. I can't charge this one point. She can't even afford the mortgage.

I felt bad. So I said, okay, I got to fix this about hurting anybody. I took a mortgage on my house. Okay, I'm going to take this mortgage out, put it on the payroll, because I would not have made payroll that month. I'm going to put it on the payroll. That was smart, right, don't you think? Take a mortgage out of your house, put it on the payroll.

Oh, wait. I didn't tell my husband. Yeah, no, I figured he didn't need to know that. And did it in like a week because there was no income, no verification mortgage. Is this a new husband? This is a new husband. Okay. Yes, this is a husband that I met from the new, I moved into a condo.

Okay. And him and his daughter were living there. And I remember moving with the condo. Yeah, he was the next door neighbor. He was the next door. neighbor with a big cabs. This is a three-bedroom, two-bath. It comes with a husband and a stepdaughter.

We pull in in the middle of the snow, and my son looks at me, goes, we can't move here. And I said, why? He goes, Alexa was here. And that was his daughter. And I'm like, but I really liked her. Oh, no, no, no. Now they're best, like this. But he was a single dad.

So immediately I thought, that's kind of odd. Why is he a single dad? He must be a widower, but no, he wasn't. Some people just get divorced. Yeah, but what dad has the kid? Has the kid full time, right? The mom's like a derelict or drug addict? Yes, yes, yes.

But that didn't occur to me. I just thought he was a widower. And he was a cutie and I stalked a hell out of them. It's a way to do it. Yeah. That's how I do it. I did too. Yeah, he'd be walking across and I'd be like,

I never stalked anybody before because I was. I wasn't the good looking girl. I'd always be the one in the background. So I'd, you know, stalk him and he'd be walking the dog. And I'd be like, oh, damn. That's how, that's why I'm married right now. Right. She told me, I don't date guys like you.

It's not going to happen. Get it out of your mind. I thought, you don't know my stalking strategy. That's your problem. That's exactly right. I know you. I see you. That's right.

I see it. I'll wear them down. Right. That's what I did. I had a softball team. Yeah. I managed the softball team. And the co-ed softball.

too much men, too many men all the time, right? I cut half of them. I said to my first baseman, sorry, you got to go. And I said, do you play softball? Because I'm really short for guys. And that's pretty much, was it after that? He came down, played softball. No one else on the team talked to me because I cut them.

But we became really good friends. And I loved his daughter. And I ended up adopting his daughter after we got married. Oh, okay. Yeah. Got rid of him, but I'm keeping. and the daughter like like really i would today it's been 20 years yeah 20 years today is like you know um no so yeah so i just it's kind of like i fell in love of them it was the first guy i ever

met that actually supported me like he didn't want me to stay in the house and cook he i was a single mom and i owned a business and so what do i do i hired him right trained him hired him so now brought him in before we got married but we bought the house and you seeing this yeah yeah he's seeing it now poor guy i i pull him into everything i know it's terrible it's a strategy yeah it is the strategy yeah um so i i know that when you own a business the house isn't going to be my name so we bought it together i said you got it we're going to transfer to your name do you think that stopped me from getting the mortgage? No, because I'm the idiot. I'm thinking, I'm going to just sign his name on a house that I really didn't legally own. Right. Take this mortgage out. Not one person ever

spoke to him. Nobody asked to speak to him. Nobody wanted to speak to him. There's no income, no verification mortgage. I signed the paperwork. Within a week, I closed, got the money, transferred into the business account. And, hey, we were okay. not realizing that sooner or later, that was going to run out on top of me having to pay a new mortgage, on top of our first mortgage, because he couldn't know,

because I'm screwed up so bad. I'm thinking, okay, I fixed this, how to, it'll be fine, it'll be okay. What year was this? This was in 2007. Okay. 2008 came. Things are going bad.

It went bad. Yeah, our mortgage, the guy who was running the mortgage company imploded. He was just like, I'm out of here. And then the attorney, my partner, came in one day. He was in the front page of the paper. He just wanted to be honest with you. He puts the paper down.

There he is. On the front page of the paper. He was getting looked at for a separate deal for his own law firm about this, he was the executor of this will who had to, I won't go into it too much. I don't like to disclose it's his story to tell. But he was doing some shady shit. went over to the attorney across the hall and I said, he goes, I told you not to just give him 49% of your company. Right. Yeah. You know, he's going to start getting looked at. And once he got

looked at, first American audited his books. When they audited his books, his title books, they saw my mortgage and trickled down and I was his paralegal. So now they took my computer. Well, every loan on that computer that wasn't right was going to now trickle down into the mortgage task fraud of 2008. And I knew that. What mortgage, other than your mortgage? Oh, every mortgage he did was, he was a crook. Yeah, every mortgage. You skipped that part. Yeah, yeah. Well, the front page of the paper. Right. Yeah. Yeah, he was, he was doing, not only my loan, it was a bunch of other loans that were on there that had gotten in trouble for. And for what reason? Same reason. Same exact, lying on an application. Just lying on the

application, misappropriating funds. So that was my, my crime was I lied on my application. I overstated my income and I misappropriated the funds. So what are most people doing? Is it like owner occupancy fraud or is it cash back? Like, I mean, you guys are setting up deals so that you can give people cash back or is it no i wasn't setting up any illegal deals except for my own um to fix the situation the deals he was setting it they weren't illegal at the time they were so unethical because they were no income no verification subprime that people couldn't afford that you know they were going to go under within but these ruthless these these attorneys and realtors and um they didn't care they just yeah mortgage brokers really it was really the

mortgage brokers, they didn't care. They were charging points on points and then prepayment penalty points. So, you know, oh, you get a prepay on there. I'll give you an extra $1,000. Well, if they're going to go in, if I know the guy's going to go under it anyway, no reason I shouldn't throw a couple points on. It's not going to change much of it. That's not going to change a thing for this guy. Right. Well, the thing is, he said he could afford it. Yeah. You feel comfortable with this? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. You're sure. Absolutely great. Well, the problem was it wasn't even that. was the notaries, because now they're sending notaries to close these subprime loans. Well, notaries were ethical.

So they'd be at the closing table, and they'd say, I wouldn't sign this loan. So now the loan officers had to call the notaries up, say, hey, I'll throw you a 500 if you get this closed. Right. So they had to up the ante because notaries were selling them down the river. Like, you have a three-day right of rescission. Why don't you keep the paperwork? Take a look at it, really look heavy to see if you want to do this.

but instead the loan officers were giving incentives to them. And on top of that, you had Wells Fargo with a robo-signing of assignments going on consistently that it was just reckless that imploded so badly so quickly. I'd say a notary has a one shot of telling a client, I wouldn't sign this and I would that it would never get another they would never get another deal I mean I from the loan officer but we have so many I yeah I would have been like yeah or you're sitting no you're not sending Kelly not on my loan you're not yeah no she's she's she's

downright ethical she's right exactly and I was one of those people who was always telling people not to sell loans and here I am the unethical illegal one who just took out of the legal mortgage on our own house paying payroll so I was you know so we were still sustaining an unsustainable business but I didn't have to tell my parents that everybody else we were closing so they had to get out so I thought I was doing a good thing and I was not um self-destructing so bad I was take started taking clonopin you know you started taking that just to go to sleep at night if you sleep hot at night you know how disruptive that can be whether you're having trouble fall falling asleep, you're waking up sweating in the middle of the night or all of the above.

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to save a whopping 50% off site wide. Because my mind would race and race and raise and raise and the sickness that I would feel in my stomach knowing how am I going to pay payroll? Oh, wait, I can make payroll if I don't pay the mortgage that I stole until last month. You know, until the next month. You know, it would always be late in chasing that one after another time.

But aren't you also getting, you're getting money, like, are you get, are you a part of the rebate that's given for, like, if I, if, if the title insurance costs $1,200 bucks. Like, you're getting six or $700 bucks back. You're not, this guy is getting, yes, because in Connecticut, you can't be in business with a non-attorney. So I didn't know that when I did the deal. If you're an attorney, you can't be in business with a non-attorney. So the title portion of it, the illegal, horrible, unethical today to still title portion of it, the attorney is making more money than anybody, although he'll seem he's not, you know, because he's making 60% of the title policy.

And then he'll sell you a fake owner's policy to get another 60% out of you. So now he's making, you know, plus the $600 fee, plus the ancillary FedEx fee of $400 and the, you know, all those other fees. Yeah, yeah. I was going to say, it's, I dated a woman who was a manager of a lawyer's title. And she had explained to me because I was always like, you know, how are you guys making any money? Like, you're charging $400 for this, like, $200, like, $200, like, you're making $600. And she's like, plus the, plus the title insurance policy. I'm like, well, that goes to the, you know, but that goes to the title company,

to the insurance company. Yeah. And she's like, oh, no, no, no, no. The, this, out of this $1,500, she's like, we're getting like 60% or 70% of it back. And I was like, really? So suddenly it went from, you know what I mean? Suddenly it's like, you're getting a thousand bucks back. And she's like, yeah.

So you get $1,000 and you're making $6. So before where I felt bad for you. Yeah. And I was. remember the they used to always if there was a would come down to money they would always go listen I know we're struggling over money right we'll throw in we're going to go ahead and throw in $200 or $600 and you were always like oh wow that's so nice it thank you so much listen when I found that out and we were sitting there going you know arguing over somebody's fee or

something I'd be like listen I'll throw in a thousand you throw in a thousand you guys throw in your whole fee of 600 and they said they well that's our whole fee we won't make any money stop it Stop, stop, because I'll go right now. Yeah, you're making 60% of it. And then you could see them. They'd always look like, fuck. Like, who told him that? You know, they'd get upset.

You're throwing it. You're healthy. Yeah. And by the way, that owner's policy, you don't really need it. And then you're like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, no, I never let anybody get the policy. I said, stop it.

It is. And the thing about it is, is title insurance companies don't pay out. Because guess what happens? If there's a problem with the title search, I get sued. the title searcher. I have to carry a million dollar E&O insurance. Oh, I was going to say, I was going to say, every policy, every time we've ever had a problem, the title insurance did pay.

Well, no. You put a notice to the title insurance that they pay. They then sue the attorney. They said, they then sue the little guy, the title searcher who's not licensed. Well, keep in mind, the only time, the only person I've ever had issues with, it was all, we just, we closed so much through lawyer's title. Yeah. And keep in mind, lawyers' titles own people are going down.

Oh, yeah. Because they all went to prison. Right. Yeah. So they're not suing themselves. Like they're sending their own employee. Oh, yeah. The title searchers took a huge hit.

Our E&O insurances every year were going up and up and up and up and up because we'd make a little small mistake and we get sued for that mistake. So the title insurance isn't really paying out. They're going down the line. So it's a trickle down effect. The attorney doesn't make any issues because the attorneys, that's why the attorney doesn't do the title. They hire an outside title searcher because who's got the responsibility now, the whole gamut, the title searcher. And, I mean, that's what I do now. I have a title search company.

And it's still, it frustrates me all the time because we're not licensed. We're not regulated. No one looks at us. I love your commercial. Like, no one's watching. Nobody's watching. No one's watching. No one's looking.

Nobody's even, even today. They're not looking. You feel safe. You're living in a fantasy. It's so horrible. It's true. It is true. I was going to say I had a closing one time with this woman.

It's funny. I never mentioned this woman, by the way. Her name's, I remember her name to this day. Wifini Vines. She had to be, she's a bigan. You know what I'm saying? She was a bigan. She came in like curlers in her hair.

I mean, a moo-moo. You know what a moo-moo is? Yeah, yeah. The old Italian mum-moos. Fuzzy slippers. And she was. on Section 8. Wow.

We did the loan. So this woman, and I knew she was buying a house through a friend of mine that was an investor. And this was the first house he's flipping. And, you know, it's funny because the photos of the house, like, it looked good, you know. So I don't know what the amount was. Let's say 100,000, I forget, but she's buying it. She was putting down 5%. He was holding a fifth, no, he was holding a, I think, a 10% second mortgage.

okay and that she was never going to pay right it was it was it a bridge like a year no it was like it was like it looked but we know she's not yeah right yeah so and she knew he's like you know just you got to sign it but you don't have to make payments yeah yeah yeah you put she's putting down 5% didn't have her 5% by the way like this was one of these loans where you didn't have to have to have the money in the bank for 60 or 90 days you just have to show up a gift letter right look this person gave me this money you don't have to source it just here it is what we actually did was I said, like, how much money does she have in the bank? And he was like, she's got this much money, like $1,000, whatever. Let's say, let's say $1,500. So we had, he deposits a thousand in her

bank, or I think he deposited a thousand in the bank account. We get a letter. Then we get a letter from showing she pulled a couple of, or $2,000 out of the bank. And she had $500 that she wrote a check a couple days beforehand that came out of the $2,500. So basically, and then he would deposit that she puts the money back in her bank account. He deposits $2,000 into the escrow account. So now there's, so it's really the same $1,500, the same $1,500, using the same $1,500 over and over and over again. So when I show it, it's like, here's the letter $1,500 in the bank, here's the $500 deposit.

Here's the $2,000, you know, whatever. I'm like, that's $5,000. That's the 5% down. And they were like, fuck it. looks look like five that they were like yeah okay so they accept that is a subprime one they give her an 85% loan she's a she's a she it said she was a a nutritional specialist she was a lunch lady and she made just enough money she also got money for her kids social security disability so she got that money like she literally made like the the the the the the DTI had

to be like 40% or something. And you got to push through. Or it's like 45%. Like literally she was right at 44.9%. I mean, it was, oh, and she's on Section 8. So I had to call up her landlord. He, no, he called me. He's like, I got this verification of rent.

He's, you know, she's on Section 8, right? She's buying a house. And I was like, I was like, yeah. And now the boyfriend is really, he's telling me, I'm going to make the payments. But I got bad credit. She's going to pay, though. And I'm like, okay. And I remember telling him, right?

he said yeah man um i go yeah but you do get paid right so yeah section a pays me i go wait a minute do we have a job wafini vines is the person that arranged for you to get paid i'm just saying do you receive that document is saying do you receive $700 a month for her rent it doesn't ask where that money's coming from right he's like yeah bro this woman's a pig because i'm telling you right now this place is trash she's going to do you She should not be getting a mortgage. And I said, I said, you'd like to get her out of your house, wouldn't you? And he's like, yeah, actually, I would like to get her out of it.

And that's the whole thing. The lease is coming up in like a month or two. That's probably why she's trying to buy this. I go right. So what's going to happen when she doesn't get the mortgage and doesn't leave your house? Where do you think she's going? And he was like, I said, your best bet is to just answer that correctly. And she'd been there for three years.

Get her out of the house. Let her get the mortgage. Right. I said, it's a mortgage company's problem, bro. Yeah. And he was like, all right. me think about this. All right. All right. He hangs up. I get it back. So now he's verifying, like, everybody's doing, it's all legit. And I remember thinking, this has to be

legit. Yeah. Because this woman's going under. And they may look into this loan. And I'll never forget. Do you remember, did you ever heard a, oh gosh, it was called the mortgage warehouse? Of course. Okay. So this is, course. Mortgage warehouse was right. It was not far from my office. Oh, God. They went under so hard. They did. So what happens. is we go to closing and we close. Now, they go to closing and they close. At the closing, the investors. Which, by the way, were mostly countrywide

and invested in the mortgage warehouse was the same very companies that went under right after. Yeah, no, I'm talking about the investor the guy that was flipping the house. Oh, okay. So the investor shows up and when they do the title work,

they even say to them, everything okay and they're like yeah why they're like oh yeah it's title no problem to title they're like no white they're like oh nothing here's the thing when they bought the house they knew it was on the condemned list oh wow now they renovated the house these guys are are AC guys so they put in aces oh wow they renovated the whole house they don't have any idea what they're doing they let me tell you that to give it an example is that I remember they put plywood up So you've got to put in the new tub. Yeah.

They put plywood up. And then they tiled over the plywood. So when wife and they put up the cabinets, they just drilled into the drywall. They have no clue what they're doing. But did it look good? The pictures looked amazing. There you go. But I found out later that Wifini, when she and her kids started taking showers and stuff, and there were many kids.

There's like six kids, one or two adults living in this house. It's like a three-bedroom, one bath. So I remember they said that the plywood swelled up and that they would be in taking showers and the little four-inch-by-four-inch tiles would go, bing, and pop off. They would, like, drop off and fall. And then there's mildew. Like, you're just supposed to be plywood. I'm supposed to do greenboard or concrete board or something.

Like, what are you doing? And they just completely, they just had no clue. And so anyway, what happens is. So they asked about you because they knew there was a condemnation on the title. And they figured, so what they told me later was, I was like, okay, but you knew this. They said, yeah, we knew it. And we kept waiting for them to tell us about it. So we were going to have it inspected.

They said, but we didn't want to call the inspector because we knew we hadn't pulled any permits. And the inspector would find it. Right. And they said, so we were thinking we'll, if title company finds it, we'll do, then we'll go through that route here. But they never said anything. They said it was fine. And anyway, so regardless, it closes. It closes.

three months later, I get a phone call from, what was his name? From Harold, one of the investors, says, hey, man, they call you yet. And I go, did who call? He was the news. And I went, what news? What are you talking about? You call, bro, Wifini Vine's house. Like, what do you mean?

They bulldozed it. What a name, Wifee. I said, of course, how can forget? I can't remember anybody's name, by the way. Wifini, Vines. Right. Best name. And I'm like, what do you mean? They bulldozed it. He goes, yeah, yeah, bro. He's like, so they pull up with the thing and they knock on the door and they say, what are you doing in the house? And she's like, I bought this house. And they're like, this is on the condemnation list. So they send people down and they put her in a motel room and they bulldoze the house. He said, I said, what are you talking about? It wasn't condemned. He was, no, no. And then he tells me what happened. And I'm like, holy shit. And so when the inspect, it's been. It's been. three months. When the inspector comes in, he says this house was condemned. I don't know how you're living here. I don't know how it got sold. But when he walked through the house, the cabinets

are sitting on the floor. They've fallen out of the kitchen. It's moldy all inside the bathroom on the walls. There are tiles missing. It's just, it's gutted. Like they've, they've destroyed this house in three months. And they're like, it's condemned. It was condemned. The last time I saw it two years ago it's condemned now get out of the house they call the police the police push them out so there's the news camera comes out because wifini calls the news they come out by the time they come out they're bulldozing the house so she's now living in a motel and free i don't know what i don't know about that i don't know what's happened to that i just know that these guys are panicked because they're getting phone calls from the news and mortgage warehouse

is calling me saying we're going to take we know there's some kind of fraud that house was condemned I'm like I don't know it's been your title guy saw the types of these pictures were doctors no those pictures are real like you you are you guys sent we gave you the appraisal and you sent your own people out to look at it like because you didn't trust us you looked at it your own people gave you a a drive-by review you so and I'm I'm yelling at them but I'm also thinking and I remember of the guy said to me. And never forget, he said, Matt, let me tell you something. He said, we're going to go through this with a fine tooth comb and we're going to figure out where the fraud is because we know you had to commit fraud because I've seen that woman. I talked to her.

There's no way she qualified. I said, listen, out of every loan I've ever done ever, this is the one I want you to go through. That's right. Because Whitefini, she's my girl. Because I remember thinking every piece of paper in that loan because I knew this is going under. you're going to make a couple two three thousand dollars but this woman's there's no way she's going to make these payments she made every payment did she really she hit was only three of them but she made right but either way and she had paid so it's like she paid the down payment's real you can't tell that the money she had insurance on the house she had homeowners insurance but i don't think but that didn't cover it so here's what covered it what ends up oh by the way

i did the news shows up at the house at the my office they said can we talk to you about? I said, absolutely, because I haven't done anything wrong. Yeah. So I'm more than willing to, because they're talking now. Everybody's like, oh, fraud. Oh, no, no. No, come to. So I get, I get interviewed by the news. They said, and I forget how it went, but it was like, hey, you did the loan for wife. Any fines? Yes. And they're like, have you seen photos of the house?

They show me photos of the inside. They pull up the camera. And I'm like, oh, wow, that's not what I've seen. I show them the appraisal. I have an original appraisal. I show them all the photos. They're like, oh, wow, that's not. Yeah, go back to the appraiser. So the appraiser said, I've never been to the house. Did she qualify for the loan? Absolutely. They go, well, you know she's getting social security disability.

I said, yeah, she gets some subsidies, but she's had been on her job for four years. She's a, they're like, she's a lunch lady. I'm like, well, she told me I was a nutrition specialist. She makes this much money. She qualified for the loan. I'm like, that's the mortgage company. I said, that's the lender qualified. She made.

Processer. Yeah, I said, so I don't understand what's happening. And they were like, well, now the house has been bulldozed. like it was condemned. I'm like, well, I don't know. That would be the title company. I simply processed the paperwork. They said, well, does she have to? So they said, so does she have to make these payments? I go, oh, I said, absolutely. She's still responsible for the payments, but I'm sure it'll all work out. And they go, okay, they leave. That night, we know it's going to be on like the six o'clock news. We turn on six o'clock news. And here's what, what they clip. They edit.

They changed. The magic of editing is Wafini Vines holding their kid with a couple other little snotty kids holding on to the moo-mo as they bulldoze her house. And she's, and I'm going, I'm watching it like this. And the person, whatever is saying, you know, the person from the city is like, it's been condemned for years. We don't know how she got a mortgage on this property. And then they clip to me going, oh, she qualified.

qualified for the loan. And then they said, does she have to make the payments? I'm like, oh, no, she's still responsible for the payments. Clip. I look like a fucking monster, like a monster. They've got Wifini. She's living in a... She's living in a motel. Listen, she's an overweight black woman with like six kids, and I am the monster white person. Don't tell me you had a suit on at the same time. No, I had a shirt. Nobody wears a suit in Florida. I was I had probably a shirt, like a butt now shirt. I definitely look like the white guy you want to hate. Deservedly after that cut.

So here's what's funny is that a month goes by. And mortgage warehouse finishes their audit of my file. They hated you more now. No. Their account executive comes walking in my office and walks in. I remember she was huge. not big but she was like six foot tall she's one of these chicks says he's like five 10 and wears heels and she looks like a supermodel right she comes and i haven't seen her in months you know because she's there

like don't go over there again that you're he's banned she walks in she says guess what and i go what she said you cleared the audit i'm like really really i'm like nice and they're like yeah we just got paid she said we just got paid back and i went you got paid back she said yeah she said the title insurance company paid us she said because they they told us it was clear title. So I pick up the phone and I call Joe at lawyer's title. And I said, Joe, I said, hey, man, what's going on? He said, hey, I said, hey, I said, you guys just paid paid them, right? And he's like, he's like, yeah, I said, well, whatever happened. He said, okay. So when the city filed the condemnation, they had the wrong, they had the wrong legal description. Like, it's literally

off by like a, it's off by even a pet one. Yeah, it was off by, it was like lot one. Oh, trust me. It was actually lot 14. They just, the four was gone and we missed it. Yeah. And she said, just, just a mistake. He said, so we paid her back. I said, okay. And so I hung up the phone and I call up Harold.

Harold hears it. Harold's like, yeah, yeah. He's like, yeah, yeah. He said, Joe said, everything's okay. I said, yeah, it's great. And I said, okay. And I go, didn't you have a second mortgage on that thing for 10 grand? And he's like, yeah, yeah, it was a phantom second though, because I kept telling

It's a phantom second's the word you used. He didn't even know what a phantom second is the first house he's flipped. And by the way, he's already flipping other houses now. And because this one worked out well. Because they made a chunk of money. They had to. They fixed it up over a weekend with some spit and cock. So, so, and remember they bought it for like 25 grand.

They made like 40, 50 grand. This is crazy how much they make. I know. And I sat there. I said, okay. I said, but you have it. He said, yeah, it's a phantom second. I said, yeah, I know that.

But it's a lien that's on the title. How did it clear? And I said, well, I said, Celine that's on the title. I said, and lawyer's title insured it. And I said, they just paid off the first. They can't not pay off the second. It's a defective title. Right.

I said, they've already admitted that they made the mistake. And he went, huh. Yeah, you know, what should I do? I said, call Joe. He goes, yeah, but Joe knows. I think he knows. I said, oh, he knows, but he can't say that. No, he can't.

He's got to put in the claim. And he goes like, all right, he hangs. the phone, like five, 10 minutes later, Joe, Joe calls me and goes, you motherfucker. Did you just, did you just, I said, Joe, I don't know. She's not paying them, bro. And he's like, you know, damn well, like, well, you should write that down. I'm not writing that down. You know she was never going to say, I don't know nothing. I know I got a second mortgage share. I got an investor. He needs $10,000. You guys did a bad loan. You already told me. You already told me you screwed up. So they cut him a check for like $10.

And the whole time in the background, guess who lost their job? The title searcher who missed the little thing on the legal description. And I feel bad for her. I do. I feel bad about that. I do. Yeah. Who does my life?

It's a horrible situation for her. What about poor Wifini? We don't know what happened. I don't care about Wifini. She knew she couldn't afford the place. She did afford it. She paid every payment. She made every payment.

Did she make the payments of the phantom? Well, she was never supposed to. Well, see, there you go. You're never supposed to. But nobody knows that. Nobody can say that's not legit. Well, we gave a similar situation. We gave the mortgage to a.

what does she work? She was Friendly's waitress. And all of a sudden one of my girls liked her and she was all of a sudden doing closings for us. I said,

Catherine doesn't do closings. Yes, she does. Give me one notary closing she's done for us. She's done tons. She's got to be two the paystops. So they said, did somebody call you

to verify her employment? Is that why? Yeah, they verified. But she's ready to decide. She's all ready to go. I said, Did she actually do any closings yet? Right.

Oh, no, but she's all trained. So you verified she's making X, Y, and Z. She works at friendlies. She can't afford that house. The attorney knew it. It's the same thing. They all knew it. She couldn't afford the house.

But guess what? She's still in that house today without a mortgage. See? Oh, without a mortgage? Because guess who was the restitution? Who? Me? Well, you're a good person.

I own the property. It's my flaw. I own the company. providing your housing her. Yeah. Oh, yeah. That's good, right? It's like supporting single mothers.

I guess. You know, like a little strip glove, you're supporting a single mother, right? It was my fault. It's all the way you look at it. It is. It was my fault. You're looking at it wrong. That's your problem.

That's it. I am helping. Yeah. Yeah. I'm giving back. Right. In fact, for 10 years, I built evolutionary reentry, never made a penny. At least with her, I'm giving her something tangible.

Yeah. There you go. You really should hang out with her. Like, if I'm, It's like paying child support. Like, I probably wouldn't hang out with these kids if I would. But, you know, I had a buddy who's like, he would take his kids out like almost every week. I'm like, man, you're like a good dad.

You're hanging out with these kids all the time. He's like, I'm fucking paying like $1,000 a month for these kids. Why would I hang out? Why would I not take them out? So, yeah. It is right. You know what? I'm going to start thinking that way.

I think I'm going to have lunch with her next week. I was so sad. I have lunch with her. I'd be like, I'm going to go knock on the door. She might hug you. She might be like. I think about you every month when I don't pay my rent

When I don't pay my mortgage Nothing she doesn't pay And on top of it It got paid off So she's all set So yeah it was my fault though You know I let too much go on I really did

It was my fault 100% It doesn't matter what happened In the company I was the owner Right Doesn't make a difference I would never let anybody In that company ever

Even though they knew they were doing And you both You and I both know It was normal It was so normalized. Like you said, everybody knew there was no, it was a phantom second. Everybody knew it, but it was normalized. But then when the shit hit the can, let me ask you, what Wells Fargo executive went to prison?

No. Well, no, none of them, right? Not one. No. And you know what wonderful, Timothy, Timothy Sloan, the CEO, Wells Fargo, who just retired. I don't know if you know that. No, we're not close. But what do you do when you retire from a big bank like that?

Go play golf, right? You know what the schmuck does? No. He's suing Wells Fargo for $45 million for pain and suffering because of all of these things that he had to do while he was a Wells Fargo CEO. I had to commit massive, massive amounts of fraud to keep this business. He's got PTSD.

Right? And I wrote him a letter. So I'm like. What'd you say to him? I started the letter off and I was wrong, but they wouldn't work with us. And it made no sense to me. I took this loan out on our house. I paid every payment.

They wouldn't settle with us at all. They hired attorneys to bury us in paperwork to try and foreclose. The money they spent trying to foreclose on our house was 10 times more than what reality was. Like, they spent more than our house worth. So I write every executive of Wells Fargo. I wrote them a letter and I said, I defrauded your bank. I overnighted it on a Friday, so they got a Saturday morning, 8 a.m. delivery. Every single eight of them, they all got it the same day.

And I opened it up with, I defrauded your bank. Now, if you got that, you're going to read. Yeah, yeah. Right? And I said, I defrauded your bank and you're paid triple of what my, my mortgage is actually worth. I've not not paid a mortgage my poor husband who was really the victim here because he didn't know anything about the loan. Now you want him and my kids to leave.

I'm going to prison. And you want to take his house and not let him make it right. Three weeks later, they settled with him. Nice. Yeah. Nice. So let's get back to your partner. Yeah.

Is being investigated. Yep. so how does that trickle down your your partner which is the lawyer right how does that trickle down to you they find you they find your fraudulent mortgage on your your husband that you took out in your husband's name and other fraudulent loans that were done i'm sure he gave gave and pointed them to the right direction okay i'm sure he did because i moved the lawyer or yeah i'm sure the lawyer did because we as soon as i saw him on the front page of the paper we parted ways right i took my title search company moved everything back to my house. Look, I can't, I've got my own issues. I can't do

anything when it comes to this. So did the FBI show up your house one day? FBI 15 agents showed up in my house of guns drawn. Here I am, me and my husband in the shower. Kids went to, kids just left for school. Every morning, my son was late. Every morning, this is what I'd hear. All right. That was him running down to the school bus. Then every morning I hear, he was coming back up to his school. So now it was banging at my door and I'm like, Thomas, we'll be out in a second. Right. We're rushing. We'll be out in second.

So you're both in shower together? Yep. In the shower together. So you're recently married. So, no. We were just getting clean at this point. Trust me. It was not, it was, we were getting clean.

It was easy. So all of a sudden, 15 agents in our bathroom. Guns, here I am, stark naked. He's like freaking out. get a tall he's flipping out and um yeah so i i didn't have any they they said we just need to look at your computers okay what do you what do we do he can go to work go get a cup of coffee you're not an arrest right like this makes no sense to me so why do you just ask me for the computers you need to just send all these FBI agents to raid me to go through my house now

they had the warrant for the my whole basement was my office at the time we have three stories so it was a colonial they did the whole house they you know uh went through the entire house they weren't they were nice guys i mean they were doing their job you know and i sat there i had a cup of coffee he went to work they um one of the guys said to me look we could take all the computers i don't want to leave you no no way to work we'll sit here and we'll copy the hard drive on this one. So they left me a computer to work and took, they thought I was housing all of the files

that they were looking for from my partner, which I didn't have. I was a scanner. Everything was on my, I scanned everything except the three files. One was the girl who was the Friendly's restaurant, girl, her file was paper. And there was two other files that I hadn't finished yet.

They were paper, so they weren't on the computer. and they took those files and I immediately called my attorney. I mean, I had the attorney across the hall who already told me I was an idiot to give 49% of the company away and he basically said, told you so, let him do their thing, come down and see me, went down and saw him and he said, what do you got? And I said, well, they got all my computers. I said, I have these three files. I don't want to, I don't want, I just want to tell them what they want to know.

I did do this I didn't want to hurt my kids I didn't want to hurt my my husband didn't know anything about it up until that point he found out that day my parents had just left

to go cross country the day before so thank God they weren't there and I sent all the employees home my neighbor filmed it all for action news called them up she's getting so now the crews come down right

she got 15 what $2,000. Two grand. Give me two grand. It came even, they come down, they called me a realtor. Everything was wrong.

Yeah. Not even close to being correct. And I didn't really care. It wasn't a big deal in the newspaper at the time. The government says to me, what do you know about road above signing? So now here I am. I know,

I hate, I know everything about Wells Fargo Robo signing. You want Wells Fargo? I am your girl. Right. I will go, I will have every searcher go across the state.

to Connecticut and they will collect every robos sign because when you were signing, because Countrywide went under. So Countrywide was assigning all their mortgages to Wells Fargo, but they were all dated the same. You know, they were just in papers and they just don't them out, but they were all notarized the same, false notaries, the whole thing. I'm going to be the one to take down Wells Fargo. I'm doing it. Six months I collected robo signings. go in there they said well this is really good work so my attorney says you're going to get this k-1-5-5 letter and i'm like 5k1 yeah i don't even yeah for cooperation yes and i'm i'm excited and they're like but this isn't enough i said it's not enough we want you to talk about

these files that were on the computer i said well i really told you what i did right now they wanted me to talk about the files that were my, because it was client privilege with my partner. He had attorney client privilege. I did not. Right. I was as paralegal. They take out the files. Now I see a good friend of mine's name there. I said, I don't know much about this. Oh, we don't want him. We want this guy. I said, I don't really know him at all. You got to go to him if you want him. I don't know. And then I started to realize this is nothing but a trickle-down effect. They didn't care about me. They didn't care about this. They just kept going down the rabbit hole till they talked to people who were involved to say one wrong thing so they can get

other people. And it was the little guys. And they never once even indicted one person from Wells Fargo. So I deserve to go to prison. And people often say to me, why do you say that? It saved my life. Can you imagine where I'd be today? Still paying that mortgage, still stick to sick to my stomach, still trying to employ my family, still trying to be better and make my father proud and that academic girl who was trying so hard to be the pretty one. I could have, God knows where I would have been today. Instead, I got sentenced to a year today. I met the most amazing women I've ever met in my life.

I learned the system from the inside out. And I thought, this can't be. Because common sense will not be tolerated in the Bureau of Prisons. You know that. You're looking at it. Wait, that doesn't make sense. Why? You know, and then we used to say, us white-collar bitches,

we'd have this thing run in like a fine-tooth machine. It was so ridiculous the way this system ran that I started to get passionate, crazy-passionate, because it was wrong. And I remember my husband visiting me one day, I was telling him, he goes, don't you think you should have gotten crazy-passionate when you were doing that wrong before?

And I said, yeah, but the thing is, that was normalized. I thought that was unethical. was not ethical. Right. But does, does anybody really know in this country that when you lie on a credit card application that you're making $10 more than you are,

that's all a federal crime? Right. I lied on my application. I overstated my income. I signed my husband's name. It was dead criminal period. I had that thinking. I had that criminal thinking.

It came easy to me. And that's scary when it came easy to me. And I learned a, different way of putting good all that white out from the PDFs and the cutting and the fixing and the fixing. And now I'm like, okay, what can I do? I came home. I still have my title search company. It's 30 years. Still, it's the only one left in Connecticut. We're very large and I was fortunate. I founded Evolution Reentry Services and I said to every woman when I walked out the door. I'm going to change something for you guys. I'm not just going to say it. And I think I

have. I've really, I went back to school. I got my master's in criminal justice. I recently finished my degree, my master's of investigations. I have forensics investigations at UNH. I won the Mike Lawler Icon Award for 2025 for forensic investigations. That shit's hard. crap that's hard um and wells fargo is my number one client right i flipped it around what is what is so what does the organization do uh we do everything from education we specialize in homeownership that's my lane um maria my executive director sitting over there shout out to her um she does phenomenal support we do online support groups very different from an online support group you recently were on. Our online support groups are about accountability. They're about

responsibility. We don't work with women. And this is, this is for women that have gotten out of prison. Yeah. And before we do, we, when we, we, we walk with women from the minute they're indicted and their families to the time they're home. So we have my daughters speak to other daughters. My husband speaks to other husbands. We speak to, so every, we have the family covered. we'd ever charge a dime. So I don't know. I know all these prison solans will hate me for saying this, but people pay thousands for what in your darkest moment? You know, I don't know. I don't believe in that. I don't believe in targeting somebody in their darkest moment. I believe that we just, we don't leave them. We meet them. We come up with a success plan. This is your plan. Where were you

lacking you need to know finances you need to know you need support right everybody needs support support housing education where you're going to live you need a plan before you go to prison you absolutely need a plan what is your success plan where do you look like what kids do you have kids where are they going to be are they going into the system are they these are all things that people don't think of and attorneys don't so I would do a lot of work with attorneys because attorneys don't know their client their job is legal they're not your social worker They're not. And so they don't know what happens, okay, year in a day, bye, what happens after?

Yeah. Right? You know, it's funny. So while I was locked up, FBI agents would come see me, right? And of course, I've met multiple FBI and Secret Service agents after. It's always funny to me that they would, one of the first questions they would say is like, what's it like in here? Yeah.

And I would always think, I mean, shouldn't you kind of know that? But then no, as soon as the investigation's over, they hand them off to like the, they're in the system. And then they don't even show up for court unless they're asked to show up to talk. Like they might hear six months later that, oh, that guy pled guilty, you can close the file. He just got sent this to 12 years or 50 years or whatever it was. But they don't ever really know what it's really like in prison. I was always shocked. It's the same thing with lawyers.

The clients would say, you know, well, what do I say? you know, when I get to prison, they'd be like, oh, just, you know, what do I tell them about my case? It's a blip. Yeah. They, just, just tell them, tell them that you, your lawyer said not to talk about your case. Yeah. Well, if you're a white guy and you go to federal prison and the white guys approach you and say, you know, what are you in for?

Uh, my, my, my, my attorney said not to not to talk about the case. They think you're, that's absolutely. Immediately you got a problem. Yeah. I mean, it's just not. Or they think you cooperated. Or they think and you're like, like, like, it's only like, like, like, I. I was like, why would your attorney say that?

Because they just don't know. No, they don't. And they wait. And these women, they were at pre-scent. I have one woman that's been on pre-sentence seven years. She's getting sentenced to June. I was on pre-sentence five. That's how, that's right.

After five years, you're not even the same person anymore. I was sick to my stomach all the time, waiting. Because you're waiting, you're waiting, you're waiting. Then you've got that hope. I'm not going to go. I'm not going to go. How can I possibly go to prison? And then I realized,

prison wasn't punishment to me. It was punishment to my family. Right. You know, I went to a camp. And in a camp, I met incredible women, and I laughed. I don't make prison out to be this beautiful thing, but it's not a camp is very different from, you know, a regular prison. But my kids left, they didn't have a mom.

Can you imagine if they stuck an angle bracelet on me and made, me go back to the very same company and fix the holes that I was able to get through and I end up doing it now anyway. Right. I mean, I'm an investigator for mortgage fraud, deed theft.

That's what I do. I'm probably the best in New England. I can find it. Yeah. That's the one thing I am definitely not humble about especially after my last one. I've learned that it's okay to say you're good at something.

I'm a work in progress. Do you see more and more like title issues or title frauds and like it's like all the time now where people are just taking people's that the abandoned properties or they're moving into people's properties and changing the title or they're like when I did it, it was when I did it it was like unheard of. Right. Yeah. Every once while somebody would do it now it's like all the time.

Bam, bam, bam, bam, I mean, it's constantly. It's because it's the most reckless. Remember the mortgage industry in 2008? That's the title industry today. I spoke up in Connecticut. Title searchers are not licensed. Any idiot could be a title searcher. And when I tell you, I have all the liability.

I have all the liability. I'm sorry, I got two title searches over there. One of them is an idiot, but no. I'm always yelling at him. People don't understand, though. You, like you said, I could change somebody by accident change somebody get an acre, an extra acre of land that they don't have. It is the most reckless thing out there right now and no one cares. You know why they don't care? Because they're

just going to sue me. They don't care. Title companies don't lose anything. You know, even title companies. I spoke up in Connecticut and the attorneys on the panel said, wait, what? And I'm like, yeah, you don't know. Your attorney doesn't do your title search. A title search or does one of us people go out and do and in Connecticut Connecticut Rhode Island and Vermont are the only three states in the country that are town-based you're all you're all county based we have to go to each individual 169 municipalities a title search and after COVID when they started putting everything online data breaches it's like you said nobody's watching it's so easy to steal a deed it's not, I just did a deed case, this poor man. He owned his house for 67 years. I met this guy

at church, needed extra income. He was 85 years old. He wants to fix up his third party. The guy said, oh yeah, I'll get you a loan, signed Sancent. He signed his deed away. Two years later, knock on the door, the house was auctioned off. The guy took a $668,000 loan, walked away. House was foreclosed on, auctioned off, and the guy was being evicted. And he didn't even know he didn't own his house. It's like, you know, you were the innovator. Now they're the followers. But it's not even, it's a different kind of nasty, mean kind of.

And it could be prevented. It's just not being looked at. like you said notary who looks at the notary stamp um there was a guy in i want to say new york or new i don't i forget where it was so this is the one that i thought was interesting was he he would go and find houses for elderly people and he'd place a lien on the house a mortgage on the house and then after a few months he'd start he'd go to a reputable lawyer a real estate attorney and say, I lent this person $400,000, and they haven't made a payment for close. Right.

And so the lender, I mean, sorry, the real estate attorney says, well, do you have all the paperwork? He says, yeah, he provides the HUD statement. He provides everything, notarized everything, the wire transfer, everything. They then send something, you know, they notify the borrower. which didn't borrow anything. Yeah, right. And so typically this person does not even, they don't even answer the process server comes.

Like they get the thing and they think it's a mistake. Right. So I'm pretty sure in some cases he had even dummied up the process. Like, no, no, he's been served. We're in the process. Take it over. Like, okay. And so this guy files, starts the foreclosure, files less pendants, gets filed.

you know, mail, but the person, 75 or 80 years old, they're not even paying attention. It's too hard. Right. Or even some cases, maybe it's going to the wrong address because this happens to be a brownstone that's vacant or a renter. Or they can change the address to a mailing address. Yeah, it's a renter, whatever. So at some point, they get in front of the judge and the old, this, the old borrower here,

he shows up and he's saying, Your Honor, I don't know what's happening. I didn't borrow any money. And the attorney that the judge sees every couple of days, he's like, Your Honor, my client, Mr. So-and-so, such and such, I've got the documents. We can see the wire transfer. We get, and so now the judge is looking at the borrower, the victim, saying he wired you the money. We have proof that you got the money. I didn't get any money. I don't know what you're talking about.

Your Honor, he may be. He may be senile. He may be, I don't know what's happening. I and so they end up foreclosing like there were there were they said some people were put out on the street like there would be there was an old woman that I think owned three or four properties this guy foreclosed on the property with foreclosing on the properties just vacant yeah takes one of the problems she ends up homeless she's living on the street she owns a couple properties you can't live in any of them and he just took a and keep mind these are these are million dollar pieces of property brook Brooklyn is horrible right now so they turn around he immediately turns around sells a property so that crime yields him half a million to a million to a million dollars and all everybody involved in the process is just doing what they do on a normal day so the process server serves them i don't know what this is about sir that's all i need to know yeah the the real estate attorney i'm just doing what i do i'm foreclosing this is what i do the judge i see this guy every day we've never had this you know how many victims come in here and try and fight

this and say oh they didn't disclose this or i don't know what you're talking about i got an 80 year old man here who's saying he didn't know what they're talking about. Okay, sir, I suggest you get a lawyer. I can't afford a lawyer. You know, okay, well, you got the money. And then there's a statute limitation. Six years. For what? Oh, to try and go back and correct it? De-theft. Six years. That's it. Well, so this guy, this guy did this for years. He only about a year or so got arrested for it. Because finally somebody was, yeah. Right. Because when they would go to the local, they go to the local sheriffs and police, they don't know what they're looking at. No, it's complicated. I don't know. We're not set up to look at this. You steal your credit card. We'll take a, we'll take a, we'll take a, we'll take a report. We send it up. They don't even look into that. They're not even looking into that. They're not going to look into this. This is complicated. So eventually, I guess it happened in enough counties or something that they put it together. They put a task force. They arrest this guy. But I was thought that was, I was like, boy, this guy is brazen. He's brazen, but in a way where he's just using the system, because he knows it's set up to be, to

not really look into anything you throw it into the machinery and it just starts cranking it out it doesn't matter that there's somebody saying hey I didn't do this yeah but you're an old guy you don't have a lawyer what do you how are you going to prove some even if you go to another to a real state attorney most real estate attorneys are just going to be like look they don't know either yeah they just don't know they close loans yeah they close loans that's simple and half the time the paralegal sent and everything up for them they're showing up to collect their check they closed the loan. They look over the documents. And they don't know if it's, they don't know if this is fraudulent or not. Let's face it, if I go to record a deed on your house, I want to transfer your

house out of your name into somebody else's name and it's notarized and the OR book and page and instrument number and everything's filled out and it's signed by somebody at the bank and it's notarized. The town clerk has to take it. They have to. Yeah, they have to. It's funny because when I went to Home Title Lock, so I did a, I did a, I've done a bunch of commercials for I know, I scan them. Yeah. I'm going to share you on my website. I, um, one of them.

Can I do that? I'm sure. Okay. You said it. Here. They don't. They don't care. They want it out there.

So I actually, so one time they had flown me out, right? And we were shooting a commercial. And I was telling them, you understand that like, like they have, you have to, as the county recorder, you know, the elected official, right? Like they, they have to record these documents. And they were like, oh, they don't have to. I was like, no, no, they do. If it's filled out correctly, they have to record it.

And he was like, is that true? They're like, because they were like, because they. Two inch margin. You got to have the conveyance tax form. You got to have the notary stamp. You have to have. That's it. Yeah.

They don't, they don't, they're not educated enough to know to look for. This is some woman making $18 an hour. She just, she doesn't care. Because you know how long it would take her two seconds to look up a notary. is this person, because that's the biggest thing. Oh, all my notary stands for fake. Yeah, that's the biggest thing. But when I talked to the people at home title, like that, they weren't looking at it from

the, they weren't looking at it when we first started talking. They weren't looking at it from the fraudsters perspective. Yeah. They're looking at it from a, are these documents filed? How can we contact, you know, what do we do to correct this? And I'm saying, no, they have to. So they ended up going and getting a, the public officials, the person who was elected, right? Right. They got him and I interviewed him. Oh, wow. As I'm interviewing him, I remember as I'm

interviewing him, he said, well, we have to. They said, he was, he goes, by law, we cannot not file the document. He's like, we can. The county record. Right. He explains the whole thing, right, as he's talking. And I remember when it was all over, I went to the guy, my kind of contact there. I was like, I was like, did you hear what he just said? He's like, I can't believe he said that. Like, He's like, I can't believe he openly just admitted that there's nothing they can do. They can think it's fraud. We can think it's fraud. We still have to report it.

And once it's recorded, we had a situation in Fairfield. This guy had openly and left to him. Moves out of town. That's beautiful open land. Some of starts building on the land. So the neighbor calls him up because, oh, your building goes, no, comes back. His land got sold. Right.

Somebody pretended to, to be him, sold his land to a developer. The developer now built houses on it. So I was in the front page of the paper for this one because if the title searcher did their job, there was a misspelling in the name. Okay. If they caught the misspelling, none of it would have happened. Because that misspelling would have drove a title defect, which would have drove a phone call,

which would have drove. It's just reckless. No one is looking. They don't want to take the expense of licensing. You have to be a licensed pool installer in the state of Connecticut. You can't put a pool in your backyard unless you have a license. Right. But I can do a million dollar title search on a property and not have a license.

It's insane to me. It's almost wanting fraud to happen. Right. It's leaving those openings. It's kind of like one of my clients. I told you earlier about my client who stole 45. million from the DEI officers at META. Right.

How is she able to do that? How is somebody able to steal $45 million from an organization, a technical, a technology organization as the DEI officer? There's holes. There's holes in it. So I think that these organizations are better suited hiring people with criminal thinking who could stop it. Right. Because I can stop it. I know what to look for. You know what to look for. You know? Yeah. I was going to say it's kind of like Snowden. Yeah. Like once you're,

he was, you know, kind of like, look, once you're on the inside. Yeah. It's your kid in the candy store. There's no, there's no, there's no governors to stop you. Nobody's, nobody's looking over your shoulder once you're in the building. You're just getting in the building. Yeah. And, and I think that's that's the major problem with the and I also think that that people in general aren't they don't know what to look for they're not looking for things they're not trying they're not thinking fraud like you don't want to fall I always say this whenever I do like I do keynote speeches yeah for like banks and credit unions stuff yeah and they of course they always ask the same questions you know it doesn't matter where you are you always yeah the five or six same

coverage one of the questions is always like um what what can we do to prevent this and it's like Well, first of all, you can prevent it, but it would be so burdens and so expensive because you'd have to check everything. And people don't want to catch fraud. Like if you're a teller, you don't, I don't want to catch you. I don't want this check to be good. I want to. You're going home.

If you're a loan officer and I, if the loan goes through, I get a check for 800 bucks or or 2000 or whatever it is, if I catch you in the fraud, I get nothing. I probably don't even necessarily get an add-a-boy. And now I'm not just that. I'm not able to – I'm losing hours because now I have to go and explain it and talk about this. I might have to talk to law enforcement might come in. I might have to go to a trial.

I might have to go and fill out police reports and do that. Like, I don't want to do all that, bro. I want this – I want this W-2 impaste to look good. I'm going to look at it and, yeah, this looks funky. I want to stand. Yeah, yeah, no. I'm just going to say I didn't notice that. I'll stick it in the file.

Hopefully, underwriting doesn't notice it if they don't notice it. Or I'm just going to put the information in and go through. Like, I don't want to find this. It's the same thing with intuition. There's tons of times when people's intuition, I was in a bank defrauding the bank or doing something wrong. And the persons you could tell, they would even say, something's not right here. And I go, really? And I just keep going.

Well, what is it? And they go, well, you know, your credit report says this. And I go, oh, okay. You sort of question it. What do you mean it says that? Exactly. That's crazy. Well, you know, and then I'd provide additional, I'd already know it was a possibility. So I'd provide additional documentation. So now you're. Can then, can you help me? Can you help fix it? Well, not just that. The person that I think is benefiting from the fraud, I'm now allowing that person to provide additional information to help to help show me that it's not fraud. Like, I'm the fraudster. Do not accept additional documentation to prove from the fraudster that he's not a fraudster. That's right. And you knew it.

Yeah. Your intuition told you something was wrong. Yeah. You ignored it. You went, oh, okay. Huh. Anyway. And you kept going.

Yeah. It said fraud alert on my credit report. You still kept going. Oh, yeah. And it's the same thing. Now they have these things where you could sign up at the town hall. So if there is a change in your deed, they could let you know. Right.

But it's still too late. Once it's record, do you know how it's like to untangle title? Yeah. It's expensive. If you hire a lawyer. Yeah, because like with the place in Brooklyn, I mean, the guy took the money. You'll laugh at this one. He took the $600,000 from this house that he stole.

Right. bought another house. He had an IRS charge. The government retained the fee, the money he made from the stolen house for his restitution. They took it for his restitution. So now the government isn't even looking at how this guy get all this money? right oh look there's money there he owes prostitution let's just take it take it let's not figure out how he got the money let's just take it and nobody it's that nobody cares anymore

nobody seems to maybe i've gotten to a point where i've way too much passion because i care it bothers the hell out of me when i see oh i i want to wrong it This title industry bothers the hell out of me because it's so easily fixed license title searchers. Don't send your searches overseas because I hired, I hired five overseas searches, $5 a search. $5 a search. Out of those five guys that I hired, I gave them each 10 searches. Out of those 10 searches, I had four major wrong things happen.

But it saves money for the title companies now. They don't even hide. That's why we're the only, not good. We're not better. We're the only company left in Connecticut because I refuse to let them beat us because they just send it overseas. It's getting more reckless. It's, okay, well, let's not even have them do it the proper way.

Let's send it overseas because you can do it online now. No, you can't. You can't check building and permits, building zoning permits online. You can't. You can't check a lot of sewer liens, water liens online. They're in separate sewer, water lien books. You cannot do a proper title search online. So they're just saying, oh, that's good enough.

That's good enough. If there was a title policy written somewhere down the line, then it must be good. Must be good. I was going to say, you know, when we were talking about the, you were talking about the notifications. Yeah. So if you're a regular person and you buy a house and you close on it and you sign it for the notification, you get notified, and I get notified that my deed was just transferred to another person's name. Yeah. What do I do about it? Like, the average person doesn't know what they're

like, okay, great, what now? Yeah, let me go down and tell. Yeah, what I'm going to go, what, tell law enforcement, law enforcement is going to say, eh, it's a notary. It sounds like, or even if they say fraud, they're going to be like, eh, it seems civil. Like, you probably need an attorney. Yeah, they're not going to, they're absolutely not going to take the time out to say, let's look at the signatures. Do they match? Let's look at. Well, they're not going to launch an investigation into getting what your deed transferred back like you now have to hire an attorney yep you have to try and have the attorney has to file paperwork he has to pull all the documents he has to put something together he has to go back in front he has to sue for quiet title he has to try and get make all these

corrections in the meantime i promise you i bought i borrowed at least three mortgages on your house and the reason why we ended up retaining our house after all of this i paid wells fargo i refinanced paid wells fargo back the government said to me well no you didn't pay them back your husband paid the back. It's what difference does it make. I still pay my restitution. We don't owe them dime. Still pay my restitution because they don't get it.

They don't get title. So while I pay my restitution every month, we beat Wells Fargo. We have our house free. I mean, the house is in a good position now. The title is perfect. We fixed title. But unless you know how to do that, we would have had to spend hundreds of thousand dollars to do that

because we were getting buried in paperwork. over our heads, just buried, because to foreclose, people don't have a chance because they're getting buried in paperwork by these foreclosure attorneys. Why? Not because the banks want your house, because the foreclosure attorneys make money every time they bill the bank. And the banks aren't watching. Again, they're not watching either. They're just getting these bills in. They're paying the bills. They're burying people in home, you know, over their head. So now the house is worth 100,000, guess what? They just spent 300,000 on, you know, and that's where evolution's working in our homeownership program. We're going after foreclosed homes. There's 126 empty homes in New Haven,

Connecticut right now. Why are they empty? Why do we have a housing problem? Why do people come home from prison and not have a place to live? When there's an empty house, nobody's paying for, okay, why don't the bank either donate that house or give us a year rent free? A year rent free to get that person up and running so we did place one woman and uh and she's closing on the house next week um and it was a success i need to tweak tweak it a little bit but i'm a realtor i'm a licensed realtor so i'm able to really work on that program because it i get so frustrated that people come home from prison and they're not people aren't prepared to go through the long haul right you right the transitions right you go through pre-sentence you go through now you're waiting then

you have to self-surrender then you're in prison then you go to halfway house then you go to home confinement then you go to probation and with all these transitions and i'm switching gears but with all these transitions there's different rules different regulations and barriers how do you hit those barriers i mean i always got put back in prison because I wanted to fight my notary. Okay. I won. I got it.

I got my notary license back. I got my notary license back. I got my real estate license back. I got my master's in criminal justice. And I said to them, is there something I can't get because I'll fight it? Just so the woman who comes home after me knows, you can do it. Not easy, but you can fight it and you can do it. And that's what really evolution does.

We groom women to be successful because the not. nonprofit, and I'm not going to be liked for saying this, but the nonprofit arena is so sad because they don't do anything. They collect millions of dollars. They say they do everything and they don't even work with each other. And they do nothing. So we decided we're not going to do that. We're going to try and change. So I intersected homeownership. you know, all the wrong things that bother me in homeownership, all the wrong things that bother me with criminal justice. And I partnered with our board, which is a criminal defense attorney, a correctional officer, a judicial marshal, we put them all together to be able to sit

and say, okay, what do you see? What do you see? What do you see? I'd love to have you join because you have a great perspective. But what do you all see on how this could change? Because it's not working with just seeing it from the outside in. So that's really what we do for evolution and what title. I mean, I'm like still the geek who loves instead of crossing off the paper, you know, the words I cross off title stuff. I take on the title challenges for our people. But it's interesting.

It really is interesting. And I can tell you love the stuff too. I mean, for God's sakes, how long did you commit deep theft? FBI said, well, my U.S. prosecutor said a decade. I don't think it was that long. It was maybe seven, maybe seven or eight years. Maybe seven or eight years. They're excessive.

They said that I, like, committed fraud in, like, 109 houses. And this was just in, the FBI said, committed fraud on 109 houses in any more city. That was before I went on the run. I don't remember 109 houses. It seems. Well, they have to, they have to. exaggerate because they want to make sure you don't go to trial yeah because if you go to trial they have to complicate it more so nobody could go to trial is extremely guilty yeah me too yeah i

can't go to trial i would never even i would have been stupid yeah it was me too me too i was guilty yeah and you know i'm okay with saying that because we're not perfect yeah listen everybody it's funny i was you know you know everyone's why you meet some guy that's like you you know what i'm saying like you meet somebody who's got a similar charge yeah and i was the only person in prison that was more than happy to get out and tell everybody what I'd done. Everybody else was like, like, how do you, how do you change your name? Or, you know, how do I hire Reputation.com that they can bear, I heard they can bury all your stuff down like 10 pages down on Google search.

And I need to bury those articles on me, which is always just like, you're working on your next thing. But come on Matt, you have, that's freedom. I just tell people, Google me. Yeah. Just Google me because, you know, if you Google me, then you make your own. But there's nobody, and no one could say anything about me that I haven't said about myself. Yeah. I'm so imperfect. But it's, it is, it is what it is. And I'd rather be imperfect and say it than pretend I'm not and want to bury my name. Right. It's, I mean, you're either okay with it,

you know, you're either, you're either okay with the person I was and the person I am today. Yeah. Or you can go fuck yourself. Yeah. You know, and that's a great, it's a great equal eye, right? It's a great thing that says, hey, this is somebody that If they're not okay with it, great, I don't want you in my life. And I don't want you in my life. Yes, yeah, exactly. I'm still learning that. I'm good with these people, you know. Yeah, I'm still learning that.

Because I'm going through the cancel culture, right? Because in the space, when you do well in the criminal justice space, the people that you used to do well for, now you're doing well for yourself. So they start to try and, you know, cancel you out. And it's the best thing that's ever been. There's always those people. Oh, it was so good. that person, dude. He's a scam artist. He's a scumbag. He says, yes, yes, yes. All those things. You knew. You knew you, you did something. My attorney said to me, you did

something right. You're in two textbooks. I'm like, you're right. I did something right. I'm a case study now. Yeah. I opened up the textbook in school and I'm like, oh my God, that's my name. And I was humiliated at first. And I'm thinking, that's pretty cool because that's Martha Stewart right next to me. I was going to say, the first time I read an article about me like they kept describing me as a con man and i remember thinking to myself like you don't know me yeah i can't believe they said and now but you know and now you know whatever 15 20 years later you i read that article i'm like yeah that's pretty accurate that's pretty good my car was silver it wasn't gray but other than that yeah it's like i wasn't a real estate agent then i was a paralegal yeah this says

i'm five five i'm five six damn it you know so other than that it's pretty accurate yeah and i'm okay with that because we would I wouldn't have gotten to where I am now and I'm not I'm a work in progress but I'm certainly not a person 10 years ago who was such a mess and so afraid of failure yeah like so afraid of failure can imagine so afraid of failure that I committed crimes yeah I always always you know I would say everybody will in the right circumstances I think pretty much anybody will commit a crime yeah but I also think that you know that was my go-to move you know I'm saying like that was my you know a legitimate guy would have been like, or a decent person would have, would have at least gotten a second job first.

Mine was, I'm not getting a second job. I'm going to wipe this out. I'm going to fix this. I'm going to change that. I'm going to, yeah, that's my go-to move is. That was all of the mortgage. That's, that wasn't just, you were, you were raised that. That was instilled because it was normal.

Everybody was wiping out and cutting the little PDFs because we didn't get the PDFs. No, I think what was funny about that is that it, initially like guys you know when you're doing something different when the other guys that you already know are a little shifty yeah you know are coming to you saying i got a problem yeah right yeah yeah before you know it everybody's coming to you and you're like cross that line that much they're like they're like they can do this much and you know but i can say okay so your issue is you need a bank to say that this guy's had $40,000 in the bank for 90 days yeah bro like i don't know what to do

I got you. Yeah. I happen to have already made a fake bank that, you know, I've already, well, how am I going, yeah, but they want me to send the bank statements. I already have blank base, bank statements. You know, they're like, yeah, they're just like, holy Jesus, hold on, I got a thing. Let me change this, change it. What's the guy's name?

Okay, make sure I spelled that right. You know, I'm dyslexic. And then you just print it out, put it in, fold them up, beat them up a little bit, stick them in pre-made envelopes I have. Yeah, right. I glue it shut and tear it open. Like it was make a copy of the envelope. Well, why?

Make a copy of the envelope. It's just extra, extra. It went through the federal mail. It makes it real. Or give them, sometimes I'd send in the actual color bank statements to the underwriter. Oh, my God. Now that is something. They'd call you up.

They'd be like, you know, you sent us the original. Like, oh, my God. Did I? I'm so, can you make copies and mail that back? And they go, oh, and since you got them, can you stamp them like originals? Like, oh, yeah, yeah, no, of course, of course, knowing they're not going to call now because they've got the originals, not even realizing, like, I can make a color copy, you know. But if they did, it's okay, because the cell phone's right there. I can pick up the cell phone and, you know.

Oh, God. You're a poor guy over there. He just sits there and shakes his head. Oh, listen, this guy, this guy, the first, like one of the first, he had no idea what he was getting into. Was it Mike Dowd? Oh, Mike Dowd was here. He's like a legendary crooked cop. Like his first, our first podcast, Mike Dowd's saying insane stuff.

I mean, he's talking about, you know, shaking down people stealing from them. I mean, just all kinds. Like, just, like, just beating people up and doing all kinds of stuff. And he's sitting there like, what hell is going on? And by the second or third, when we got guys jumping out of windows, you know, fighting, beating up each other with baseball bats and stuff. And now. I used to go back and look at some. Now Colby said when his friends will come to him and they'll, they'll be like, yeah, this happened, this happened.

And, you know, Colby will be like, nah, you know what, he's probably going to get out on bond. He'll get bail. He'll get bail. Yeah, because they don't really have them for the, or he'll go, eh, I don't think you'll get 10 years. He needs to cooperate. Yeah. He's like, we need to cooperate. Or he's going to prison.

I'm like, oh, like, that's not bad. Yeah. He needs to get that K-5. Yeah. He's going to get a K. He's going to K. The first 10 years are the hardest. Yeah.

that was a year said to me yeah yeah they think the first time i talked to you you said the first 10 years you did 13 years the first decade's the hardest yeah it's either if people laugh you can tell if somebody's got a good sense of humor yeah if they laugh or if they're just like um yeah i guess uh you're like okay never mind we're not going to be cool like i can tell you don't have a dark enough sense of humor yeah no you have to have definitely have i do i thank you for being I have them on. Yeah, yeah. Especially to talk to somebody that knows title.

I never get that. Yeah. You know what's funny is, I'll listen. So, well, here's, so one thing. Remember I just told you about the guys would be like, hey, bro, like, how do you change someone's name? Because I actually, you'll like this. I actually put an ad in the newspaper, good credit, bad credit, no problem, call now,

free applications available in the phone number. People would call. This is back when you could do that. Now you probably have to put it on Craigslist or whatever's popular now. And people would call you and I'd answer the phone. You know, United Capital, you know, United Capital lending. How may help you. Oh, yeah, I can take it.

No, you know what? I can take an application. Hold on. Wait. No, you know what? Hold on. No, I'll just take one. I can take one right now.

You know, and I take their application. Yeah, right, right, so I actually. Yeah, he's busy. Yeah, he's busy. So I put them on holds too sometimes. You put them on mute and you sit there for a little bit. You click back. Hello, you still there?

Yeah, hold on. You wait, wait, wait. Okay, listen, Tom's busy. I'll go ahead and take an application. I don't know if I do this, but I'll do it for you. So I take the application and then, so I had taken a bunch of, this is initially how I was stealing the identities. And then I, so you know what I would do?

Because I couldn't pull their credit, right? Because this is when I was on the run. That's right, yeah. Oh, you were already on the run. This is when I was like, this is how I was doing it. Well, if I wasn't on the run, I'd just go into the file cabinet. So while I was on the run, I was doing this. And then I would, I would call another mortgage company and say, I work for an app taker.

We have an extra 13 apps. Can we send them to you? So you can pull these people's credit and call them back. And then they'd say, yeah, what are they going to say? No. No, we don't want 13 extra leads. They'd always like, well, how much? No, bro, you don't understand.

We sell so many a day. We didn't say, there's 13 left over, but I need somebody to call these people within the next 12 hours. You have to pull their credit, call them. Send them over. Send them over. So now these people get a return phone call. So they don't think anything's wrong. So, but I was, I'm now the conduit, right?

I'm in between. So I got the information. They got the, yeah. Anyway, I stole a bunch of them. So one time I stole a guy's information, I then went to a lawyer and I had his name legally changed from Michael Eckert to Michael Johnson. And I feel bad about that. I don't know what happened to Mr. Johnson.

that doesn't know at some point he's going to realize what is it going on why are you calling me well you're mr johnson aren't you know they're going to be like no i'm not so anyway so guys would come up to me and pretty like this is a licensed attorney yeah well because keep in mind i went and got a driver's license in north carolina as michael ecord i went and got an attorney and you know how when they write up a little motion yeah they want you to find two people that will go get a document notarized saying they've known you over three years. Right, exactly. I've been in, I was in Charlotte, North Carolina for two months.

And I, we'd made some friends. And I said, hey, man, by the way, I was, I gave him the, I gave me, I'm like, yeah, but it says, you know, you have to know me three years. Yeah, yeah, I don't care. And they'd sign it and notarize it, fine, no problem. And then he takes his little motion, plus the two people, files it with the court. Then they put it, actually put it on the courtroom wall. They have like a court board in the front.

They put it on the old thing. stays there for 10 days and after 10 days he goes back and says your honor is there for 10 days I go okay no problem sign it now I can change go back to go back to DMV I can change that change my social security number change everything I got everything back anyway that's another point point is is that like this is insane so one of the things I did was I had bought a house one time and the person owed they had a mortgage a second mortgage the woman was retired and she owed back on her, uh, her homeowners association dues of like seven or eight thousand dollars for a condo she had. So there was a, there was a, uh, a lien on her property. I satisfied that.

I said, listen, I would, it didn't matter what you had. I'm satisfied everything on that more, everything on that title. I'm satisfying. So I mean, I'm like, bam, bam, bam, bam, I'm satisfying everything. And I remember the chick I was with at the time, she's like, well, you know, we could, we would go down. And like I said, we're not licensed. We don't know what we're doing. We're just pulling everything on the title. And we pull. And we pull. it. And I'm like, I don't know. It looks like she, I don't know, not positive what this is. I'm like, I think she owes money in Miami for a condo. And they're like, God, she hadn't paid in years. How much is the fee? I'm like, I don't know. I guess she was like seven grand. This was, and this was filed months ago. And I'm like, she's like, what are you going to do? We got to get rid of that. Like, that's got to get rid of that. I don't know if this is even, I don't know if it's called a release or a satisfaction. I don't know. I don't know if it's called a release or a satisfaction. I don't know. I don't know. I'm assuming they're synonymous. Yeah, yeah.

And so I did that. Yeah. And I remember I satisfied alone one time in the name C Montgomery Burns, the aging tycoon from the Simpsons and notarized it, you know, so which every time, which I thought was funny. But when I went in front of the judge, like no sense of humor at all. This guy, he's a stick in the light. You'd think a judge would have a sense of humor. You would think he would mean like.

Oh, my God. Yeah, you would think so. And he even says it to my truth. He says. I mean, this isn't the worst thing, he said, but the Simpsons character. And he just kept on going because I, you know, I'm sitting there thinking, you know, you want to say, like, I'm desperately want to be like, the Simpsons, right? Like, come on.

Right? Like, come on. That's funny, right? It's like doing a Macaroni. Right. It's kind of like, right? Yeah. Like, come on.

Like, that's how stupid this crime is. That's how easy this crime is, right? Like, I actually had initially filled out Barth's. Tholomew Simpson. I was going to have the notary from. Yeah, the chick goes, she's freaking out. Absolutely not. You're not. I'm like, no, how funny is that? We'll do the whole, it'll be a theme. It's a theme satisfaction. No. That. Let me ask you now that you think back, because you have such a great perspective on, I did this. And it's, it is funny when you think about it, right? Like you think about the crazy things you did and where you are now.

how do you how are you so accountable well you're so accountable we need to like that when we're laughing and joking now she's all but half the half the people we know we need to meet you because how do you get people that accountability I try and they just look at me like oh why do you tell people and I'm like because it's who I am and think about how ridiculous I was and that's where the funny comes in if you can't laugh at yourself what can you laugh at right Yeah, I don't know. I mean, why wouldn't you? You know what I'm saying?

Like I have so many, I have enough issues than to walk around apologizing all the time or hiding from something. Like, I'm going to hide the rest of my life. Like, come on, man. So what do you say to somebody who's just been tagged with all this money and they say, I didn't do it? That, what do you mean? They just got indicted for $1.4 million. And the answer is, I didn't do it. Go to trial.

Yeah, but they say if I go to trial, I'm going to... Well, you didn't do it. You can prove it in trial. See, that's true. You know what I'm saying? And they're always like, well, I can't go to trial, the trial tax. Yeah, immediately it turns into, well, you don't understand. See, what happened, what happened was that so-and-so and said, oh, okay, so you did know.

See, what I get is my attorney told me I can't go to trial. Right, because you'll lose because you're guilty. Because you're guilty. Yeah, right. Yeah. So I'm not being too. Like people say, you're so blunt. But I'd rather be blunt than sit there and sleep.

Well, I mean, you know, listen, I'm not going to play the victim the rest of my life. It's too, fuck. It takes too long. Yeah, I can't do it either. I can't. Oh, you don't understand. Everybody was doing it. I didn't know.

Really, you're so stupid that you didn't know. Yeah. You'd rather that people think the rest of your life, I was duped by everyone else. Yeah. I'm an idiot. Yeah. As I ran a business. Right.

Yeah. Right. Then I knew that when this guy said he was going to have his brother-in-law say he worked for his gutter company and provide W-2s and paystubs, that maybe that was fraud. Something was wrong with it. Right. Right. So, you know, or that you were going to lie.

The broker said it was okay. He said it wasn't a big deal. So you thought that it was normal that you were going to go to six different title companies. And every one of them, you were going to have to sign paperwork. that says that you lived in every single one of these houses and all of these primary residents and every single one of them. You know what I'm saying? It's like, stop it, bro.

Yeah. It's, I get it. It's willful blindness. Yeah. It's illegal. Like that's what, by the way, that's what the term, that's what the term you're going to hear this a lot in your trial. Willful blindness.

Yeah. But the broker said that that was okay. Yeah. Cut it out, man. Relevant conduct. Yeah. It's all relevant conduct. Yeah.

You're done. You're done. You knew it. Yeah. You know. That's what I got that. Relevant conduct. Right.

So I'd rather say, eh, I thought it worked out. And that was wrong. And it didn't. And I got caught and I got jammed up. And now I'm having to do three years with you people. And I'll be making payments for the rest of my fucking life on.

Yeah. $6 million or how much, you know, that you owe and that's it. And, you know. And it is what it is. I used to write true crime stories, right? Yeah. Locked up. I write true crime.

So this guy comes to me in. And he sees me write, and he comes up, he goes, hey, man, he said, you do legal work? And I went, no, I just write guy's stories. He's like, okay. And I said, why? He said, well, because I got like, I think he got three years. He goes, he said, and I'm sure the story subtly changes every time I change it because I can't remember exactly the exact thing.

But he's like, he got three years. And what he had done was, he said, yeah, he said, I'm fighting my case. And he only got three years? Yeah. And he was, I'm fighting my case. I said, for, for, I said, why? What's wrong? He's like, well, bro, like, I just think I shouldn't have gotten any, I shouldn't

got three years. I go, well, what happened? He's like, well, I own a trucking company. And he figured out that he could, that he figured out that Johnson and Johnson, which he was picking up and moving stuff with, they just weren't paying attention. He, anything he invoiced him for, they get, he said, so I was invoicing him and he ended up invoicing him for an additional, like, $3 million over the course of four years or two years, whatever. And I was like, okay, okay. He's like, so I'm just adding pallets that I'm not moving and charging them. And anyway, he's like, they just never checked. He said, so five years, four years go by. He said, eventually he told another trucker that was a friend of his about it he gets caught he tells on him

he's like so anyway i got so it was three million dollars and this and that he's like i got three years what you know he's like what do you think i should should do i think he got like four years whatever but yeah and he's like right so he's fighting he's fighting his criminal being i'm like okay okay by the time you're home right and that's what i said do you think i should file a 2255 i said oh absolutely hope and yeah i say if you heard this before No. It's exactly what I said. So he goes, I said, you should file it.

He said, why? What do you think? I said, well, it'll take you about three to six months to file it. He goes, okay. And he just got in here like two weeks earlier, two, three weeks. He's only been here. And he turned himself in. So he's that harmless.

So he's like, yeah, I said, that's six months. I said, then they're going to give the government 60 days respond. They'll ask for an extension. 90 days they'll respond. Then you'll have a chance to respond. And then I said, so that's, that's going to take about a year. I said, then you're going to file this, and that's going to take about three to six months. Then this, then this.

I said, so at that point, I said, at that point, the judge has to make a decision. It'll, it'll take him between a month to three to three months, maybe four months. And he'll, I said, at that point, you're going to, you'll be denied. And he's like, well, what do you mean I'll be denied? I said, well, at that point, they'll give you the denial. And he goes, I said, but, and he goes, well, why would I? why the fuck would I follow the 2255 if you think I'm going to get denied I go well because because by that point two and a half years will have gone by and they'll be putting you in for

halfway house and I said that whole time you get to lay in bed and talk to your family about how if this goes through you could be out next month and you could do this you could do that you'd be able to daydream about it when you're sleep at night laying down and talk to your family and visitation and and it'll always be there I said that that hope will get you through and he goes, well, fuck, well, you said, so why would I do it then? I said, because the hope will get you through. I said, and by that point, they'll put you in for a halfway house. I said, and you'll realize I've only got a few more months and I can do this. And he goes, that's horrible. And I go, you stole three million dollars. You have to do some time. I said, what were you thinking I was

going to say? You get to steal three million dollars and you get probation? Let me steal. It was three million dollars and I thought I could get two years probation or three year's probation, I can go fucking rob a bank right now. Everybody would do it. I got a year in a day and I wanted to fight it. Remember, every day I write home? What are the statutes? I need to know this every day. I'm like,

I got a year today. So you know what's so funny about that? He was like he thought that was a worst thing ever. He thought it was a piece of like, he looked at me and just got up and walked off and I thought, whatever. Like I'm used to pissing people off. So I keep writing. I'd say a month or two later. And I'd pass to me once in a while. He just give me the nod. I'd say three months later, four months

later, I walked by him one day. He goes, we just, he was just mailed off my 2255. I got, you're on your way, bro. You're on your way. He'd be like, look at me like he's pissed. And I keep walking. Months later one day I walked back, he'd go, he'd say, uh, judge just gave the, uh, the government gave him 60 days. I go, and you're almost out of here, you're out of here. You are out of you better who are you going to give you 10 shoes to who you give me your 10 shoes to you know and he next thing you know a couple months later he's like government asked for an extension i'd be like what 30 days you got 30 days you got your spires keep walking a couple months later he'd be like we put in our motion you got it okay cool about you're good you're good right you got a powerful argument

you got a powerful argument and he'd like yeah i know a few more month listen a year or two it goes but we're doing this every month's mom and then finally he's like got denied I go, oh man, sure, that's fucked up. I'm so sorry, bro. I go, that's fucked up. I said, when they put you in for a halfway house, he is next week. I'm like, yeah? Maybe a month or so later, he's like, he's like, hey, man, he's like, I got six months

halfway house. I'm going. He's like, I got like a month left. I'm like, good for you. Good for you. Good for you. Well, you're sitting there for freaking 13 years. Oh, of course.

Oh, listen, I can't tell you how many people I saw leave, come back on violation, leave, come back on violation, get their paper quashed, get a new charge. do their time, get, come back on violation again, like, and literally, like, you serve three sentences before I've left prison. Look what it did for you. You'll never do that. You ain't going back. No, I just got off supervised release.

Right? You didn't go back. You know why? Because you saw all those people do it. So you knew. Yeah. Well, you know what I, you know what I always saw was the worst part for these people? What I realized was the common denominator was.

Almost none of them were appreciative. None of them were humble. If you get out of prison with your delusions of grandeur, you're coming back. Oh yeah, man, I'm going to get an apartment. I'm going to do this. I'm going to do that. I'm going to do that.

You're working at Duncan. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. You're a barris. But I got out and I was like, they're like, well, what are your plans, bro? I'm like, I'm thinking McDonald's, bro. I'm thinking McDonald's and live in somebody. Really?

I thought it was going to be a barista. No. I was looking high. Bro, that's that I tell you right now. I dated a chick that was a barista. She said that shit's hard. yeah but they're good she was like no no see you have much more energy you're you're much more energy than me no I want I'm thinking like fries you know like you know like you

I want to do the I don't want to do a lot of yeah I don't want to do a lot of yeah I have horrible memory horrible memory oh I can't be involved in that the caffeine would definitely and people and honestly I don't know that I could I don't know I could put up with people's attitude like oh you gave me this and this and I could I could do the oh god you with sir i'm so sorry i apologize the problem is i feel like i get really behind and i get to might get to that point where it's like well you better to drink that shit i'll come over here right now i don't give a fuck on a plane coming here we were on a two-hour plane coming from new haven to florida we're sitting the first two rows we had the oh my god that the the staff was laughing

hysterical because there's one woman in the back she's going we were being too loud right She kept going like this. So we had this great gay guy who was there. He goes, honey. I said, I couldn't. I said, I get up there right now. He goes, honey, let me get you the earbuds. Right.

I'm so sure. There's some mirror buds. I was dying. I said, that wouldn't be me. I'd be like, you don't like it. Get the fuck in the back. Bond out. Do you ever hear bond out?

That's something that you, there's all these sayings. You chose this. Oh, yeah. Guys are like, you know, oh, it's too laugh. Bond out, motherfucker. That's your fear. Shouldn't have got yourself here. Should have thought about that when you were robbing that bank.

When you was Connor all them people, Cox, you should have thought about that. It's going to be loud in here. All right, man, I'm good. Thank you. We have a fan. The women's prison is the fan. The fan. There's no fan in the...

They have, you know, those big industrial fans. All of a sudden... What were? You in the state? We were in the feds. Criminal. Feds, camp, big industrial fans. Women would be running across.

across the camp with these big industrial fans. And then you have the women chasing them. That's my fan. It's like, are you kidding me? Where are we? And the fan's too loud. And it's, I'm cold, turn the fan. I'm taking that damn fan.

It was the fan thing. And these are big ass industrial fans with the big long poles. Oh, we did have some of those. But we only used those when the ACs, if the AC went out. We had no AC. who doesn't have AC in federal prison Danbury Federal Prison Oh no no that is

It was 90 degrees Anytime someone says to me Yeah I went to state prison Do you know what most people like You have like a go-to thought Most people is like You know What is it?

You know assault Or this My first thought is when someone says federal prison My first thought is always They don't have air conditioning Yeah Like the idea of being in Florida With no

air conditioning. Oh, it, that to me is, that's the torture. Was torture. Yeah. It was like laying there and the, and then all you hear is the fighting over fans. And then the fans would be good. And then, of course, you get the COs, I'm taking the fan away. And you're like, no, please don't take our fan away.

Take the microwave. Or that would do that with the TVs. Yeah. We're taking the TVs. We're like, stop, bro. You're not taking the TVs. You know, for a fact, everybody's going to come out here. Yeah.

Screaming and hollering, playing cards. It'll make you miserable. you're giving that back in an hour we had one CO one CO to 276 women in a building that was only to be held 160 it was crazy found out we had fun rub some dirt in it is what my wife says all the time rub some dirt in it we would make uh we'd take the coffee and we'd make big coffee we'd melt chocolate around it we'd be popping coffee beans all day long yeah they could make some shit in there boy they could make some good stuff like i they were i they'd take some good stuff like i they were they I had a buddy name, they called them,

the nickname was Slow Motion, because he had two hernias. I didn't even want to know. He had two hernias. So he moved very slow. He had two hernias they wouldn't fix. So he moved real slow all the time. They did, they did try and help him.

They told him, medical told him, they said, stop eating the hot sauce. And he said, oh, that's hot sauce. That helps. I don't eat, yeah. Like, the leading cause of death in Coleman was medical. Oh, you're in Colvin. Yeah.

So slow motion would make, and we ended up calling motion. Yeah. So they called them motion. Motion would make the best iced coffees. I mean like Starbucks. Oh, I had the best fetid cheat in Alfredo I ever had with Creamora. I had the best. Oh, yeah.

And you think about it now. Oh, it's disgusting. Like they would make cheesecake. Yeah, they'd make cheesecake. And it was like, yeah, it was. And you'd be like, no, I've had enough creamer today. Yeah. I've had a bag of creamer.

today already. Thank you. It's disgusting, but delicious. Yeah, with the shabangs. It'd be like, they would make the crust out of cookies. Yeah. Cookies and like honey, they would bake the crust and pour it and pour it in there and you were like, I shit you're not, this is a piece of cheesecake. And it was good. It was good. I could only imagine. That's better than eating the food that said not for human consumption. Human consumption. Yeah. That's a policy. It's probably not medically sound. It's probably fine. Yeah, I'm sure it's fine. Nobody dies. For the most, I think that humans for a lot of our lives have been scavengers for a lot of history. So we're probably designed for that. Oh, we're eating fetichini Alfredo with creep all right. We're kind of a scavenger. It's fine.

It's fine. It's all fine. My wife was in Coleman Lowe when it was a low. Oh, wow. So she was in a camp. Yeah. So she used to mow my yard. No, she didn't. Did she? Yeah. But you know, the guys with, you know, when the girls were on the mower. The girls on the most, the guys would go up to the windows. And the guards would have to be like, you know, they'd be, you know, what they call them, you know, gunning them. And they do it from a distance, then they're sniping them. But they're up close. It was gunning her, bro.

I was gunner. She was like five feet away. She knew. She knew what was going on. They'd hold their reg number up. Write me. Write me. You know, and the girls would be like.

Yeah, I'm going to write you and go to prison. Guards would be walking around. Get away from the window. Get away from the windows. We had this one woman who had a boyfriend down at the Danbury men's prison, and she'd send her picture down there. You're going to get caught. You're sending your picture in your uniform.

Like you're taking a picture up here in your uniform. You're sending it down to the game. Two weeks later, she was gone. She was gone. She was gone in Brooklyn. It's like, what were you thinking? You're sending your picture down to me? You didn't have time to take art out.

No. We didn't have it in Danbury. Danbury doesn't have hard out. Danbury's got three prisons now. My wife did four years. Oh, wow. I think she got five and a half, almost six years. I think she ended up doing like four, a little over four.

That had to be hard, both of you win. Well, you, no, we didn't know each other. Oh, you didn't know each other. I remember in the halfway house. I met her in the halfway house. She's the one I wore down. Oh, you stalked. Yeah, you stalked her into.

Okay, yeah. Yeah. Did you feel her calves the way I felt Dave's calves? No, you, no He was planting a tree one day And I said, your calves are really Like, I'm such a loser Like I'm like sitting here

Touching his neighbors I'm like, yeah, I definitely am a loser Your cats are like Papa And I'm like, what is wrong with me? She's caressing my cat Yeah And he's like, this girl's a nut

Yeah And absolute nut And I couldn't understand Why you'd always run When I came around oh good times good times right right and now look at us yeah yeah yeah i was gonna say it's always funny uh she'll go um because i we'll be playing at bed or something or she'll every once while she'll sit there and we'll be on the couch she didn't do this anymore because i we got

to an argument i mentioned it and so now she won't say it anymore she's like i'm not going to say it i was like that's fine we'll be doing something and she'll look and she'll go she up until a week ago she did this she'd go you're so ham. And I go, remember when the halfway house and you told me that you didn't date guys like me? And she was like, shut up. You know, and I'd say, remember that? You told me, I make fun of guys like you. You're a city boy.

I would never. You remember you said that? Never, never. Like what I said to you the other day. Remember when you had arms? And now every day, he's got the, he's pumping iron. Yeah, it doesn't take much. It'll push you over the edge.

Remember that time you had arms? Women are brutal. Yeah. We do. God forbid. You say something like that to her. Oh, no. You couldn't.

No, I can't say anything. He can't even say, oh, yeah. I'd have to just say you're. Like, what did you say? It's just got to be, you're so pretty. And so here's the thing. I would say it's so often initially when we started dating. I'd say she's, you're, you know, you're so pretty.

You're so that she'd get, I am not. Oh, my God. She got to a point where I just stopped saying it. Now it's always like, you never tell me I'm beautiful anymore. I'm like, oh, my God. Oh my. And then if I do, she's like, you're lying. You're just lying. But you are beautiful, baby. And then I'll say to him, I look fat in this. God forbid, he says, maybe a little frumpy. No. And then. No, you just got to say, like, I'm not falling for this. I'm not doing this. I'm not doing this right now. You know why? Because I say to him, I have to call my son because my son will tell me the truth. And then it gets mad. And he's like, okay, maybe a little frumpy. And I'm like, really, you think I look frumpy in this? You bought this for me.

it is it's a horrible situation it is relationships are yeah yeah relationships are hard imagine doing that while you're in prison we stayed married through the whole thing oh no bro i wouldn't know i couldn't i i always talk about this one guy i'd met and i've told this story probably five times the last two months whereas it's real quick though is what this guy when i first got arrested i've been around two three weeks and this guy's getting called to to um visitation all the time and he's i mean he's getting like a one or two letters a day with photos in him. Oh, wow.

And he comes in, he opens him up. He'd read the little note. He'd just, he looked at the pictures and tear him up because you don't want the other guys to get them. And I mean, the chick is gorgeous. I'm like, bro, who's that? He's like, that's the chick I used to date. He'd tear him up and throw him off. And we go, yeah, yeah, this is us at such and such.

And then he tear him up and throw them away. Because you don't want the other guys. Yeah, you want to hold of them. Yeah, weirdos. So, and then I was like, what's the deal? She's right. And he's like, oh, she's not. I broke up with her.

Like, we'd been dating a few years. He was, this isn't my first bid. Because I had been, he'd been locked up for a few years before. Yeah. He said, I got out. He was in a car. He was driving some guy around that had drugs on him. They violate.

Whatever. He got three years. I forget what he got. But anyway, there was a gun or something. I forget. He got four years, three years, whatever it was. And he's like, and I, so I broke up with her. I said, look, I'm going to do the time.

She said, she was going to do the whole time with me. And I said, no, I'm going to do the time. And if I get out and you're available, that's great. But I don't want to hear from you. He said, I don't want to be, he said, I don't want to be that guy on the phone Saturday morning, screaming at, at her going, where were you last night? Why didn't you answer the phone? Or having talking to somebody who saw her at a club. And he said, those guys do really hard time.

He said, I don't want to be that guy. I don't want to do that. Yeah. I'd get the phone call from my son. Dad's on the deck on his phone talking to somebody. Oh, what a little, what a little. Right? He'd come to visiting and he'd have to see me first

And they'd fight, the kids would fight I need to see Mom first I need to talk to him about something And the only time he'd come in is he had to say something about him I think that's something weird going on I'm like, your grandmother cooked Your grandmother cooks for him every night He's running my business

He's here What do you think? No, he's on the phone, he's doing something My God, are these your kids? Yeah, no. Oh, hell no. No. You little fuckers.

I said my son's my, he's like my angel. Oh, no. No, no, absolutely not. He's still my angel. He'll still sell him down the river. No. My, oh, no, no, no. And, you know, my wife does, it's funny.

She'll be doing something that'll take hours for her to respond to a tax. Think anything. Whatever you're working. Yeah, now it's too late. That was 20 years. Isn't it funny? And I say that, I'm like, look. But if I don't immediately respond,

Yeah. Why didn't you respond? What are you doing this and that? But, you know, all. And then I'll be like, first of all, I'm, I'm five foot six. I'm 20 pounds over fucking weight. I barely work out anymore. I'm 55 years old.

Nobody wants me. I promise you. If it was in me to do it, there's, if this, I have no options. And you just want to fry. You can't even know. What are you doing? You know, she just, she's, it's insane. I'm like, you're, you're an insane.

sane person you know that she's like I know we're all that way it's you know like a day two days later she's like she'll walk up she'll go you know the other day you know that was my period talking right you know I love you wait so she goes through metapole oh my god then it's even worse it's even worse the poor guy he can't go to the post office and I'm like where'd you go yeah it's like I could have been dead I could have gotten into a car accident The drama. Yeah, I'm all about the drama. So Maria comes and stays a weekend because we were just getting to know each other.

And she goes, you have it so made. He gives you coffee. So now I'm like, you can't do that in front of people anymore. People think you're too nice. They don't know the real you. Do not give me coffee when people are here anymore. He's like, you're a nut. There's something wrong with you.

You're a knot. I'm like, yes, I'm a knot. I went to prison. I survived prison. I still don't take my name off the internet. Of course I'm not. I have a feeling prison had little to do with this. You are right there.

Yeah, yeah, I have it a lot before that. And the worst part is that I think I just laugh. Most of the time when she's doing crazy, I just start laughing. It makes her even more mad, even more angry. You think it's funny? I think you're a little out of your mind. Yeah, I think you've been eating.

you know crazy sandwiches see i'm the one who laughs at myself though and he's like i broke my nose i told you that so everybody who could see me nose my nose isn't really this stuff i'm just really my broke my nose i'm putting makeup on it right he goes they're gonna know you broke your nose it's all swollen i put this much makeup on right i have so much makeup on my nose right now and i don't wear makeup so i said to it the whole way the whole way here i'm saying how's my nose nose how's my nose how's my nose I was like, you're going on a podcast about criminal... She stopped herself and said stupid podcast about criminal justice.

Do you think anybody cares what your nose looks like? They're not even going to know it's all cut up underneath. I said, they're going to think you beat me. And if he asks, I'm going to say you beat me. Oh, I would say it. I would say it. Yeah. Yeah, I definitely, I definitely would be...

Yeah. Yeah. I do the whole, like, it just goes to, like, grab my arm or something. I go, don't touch me. You know, I do that. And people look, she gets embarrassed. You know, she's like an introvert. Like, I can care less if everybody looks at.

Yeah, me too. I can care less. And he's an introvert. Yeah. So it's the same thing. I get to, you know, I'll call him out. Or he'll be across the room and I'll be like, dude, scream it. And then I'll call him Sparky.

Oh, don't call me that. What is wrong with you? And I'm like, oh, you don't like that name. He's everybody's going to think you call me that. I go, Sparky. Yeah, don't let me know it bothers you. That was your first mistake. Now I know.

Now I know how to bother them. Dumb. Well, it was great chatting with you. It really was. I'm glad we came and did this. So evolution, we follow women from the minute they get indicted throughout their entire journey through the criminal justice system. We never leave their side at all. They're given peer mentors.

We have women. inside prison waiting for you. So when you get to prison, they can teach you. And while you're in prison, we also have kids that you're, we have kids that are paired with your kids. So your kids are never alone. Your family never is never alone. You have, we have husbands that speak to husbands. We have teenagers that speak with teenagers. We will never, ever leave if they have a question, if there's an issue with visitation, we help with that. We have really good relationships within in the Bureau of Prisons. And if you want to get in touch with us,

it's www. www.evolutionreentry.org. You can donate. You can visit us. You can give us a call if you know anybody or if you were into trouble and never a fee. Never a fee.

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