Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - SNITCH ON JOEY MERLINO or LIVE LIFE IN PRISON | Adam Clausen

Episode Date: June 14, 2025

Adam Clausen shares his life story about facing 213 years and being pressured to cooperate against Joey Merlino.Adam's Podcast https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxym_IVKqJYs0e0k62UMkFg IG https://www.instagram.com/gritability/Follow Matthew Cox on all socials!Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/insidetruecrime/TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@matthewcoxtruecrimeDo you want to be a guest? Fill out the form https://forms.gle/5H7FnhvMHKtUnq7k7Send me an email here: [e-mail] you want a custom "con man" painting to shown up at your doorstep every month? Subscribe to my Patreon: https: //www.patreon.com/insidetruecrimeDo you want a custom painting done by me? Check out my Etsy Store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/coxpopartListen to my True Crime Podcasts anywhere: https://anchor.fm/mattcox Check out my true crime books! Shark in the Housing Pool: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0851KBYCFBent: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BV4GC7TMIt's Insanity: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08KFYXKK8Devil Exposed: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08TH1WT5GDevil Exposed (The Abridgment): https://www.amazon.com/dp/1070682438The Program: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0858W4G3KBailout: https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/bailout-matthew-cox/1142275402Dude, Where's My Hand-Grenade?: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BXNFHBDF/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1678623676&sr=1-1Checkout my disturbingly twisted satiric novel!Stranger Danger: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BSWQP3WXIf you would like to support me directly, I accept donations here:Paypal: https://www.paypal.me/MattCox69Cashapp: $coxcon69

Over the course of three weeks, I commit a string of nine different robberies that I'm charged with in the feds. You're either going to cooperate or are you going to do life in prison? Joey Marlino, they had a hard-on for them. They really, really wanted those guys. They had already beaten one case. I've got information with connections to organize crime. I'll talk to the FBI, the ATF, the DEA. You tell me, like, whoever wants to listen, I'm talking. I have this art teacher who tells me, you're going to end up in prison one day.

Lucky, yes. It's always stood with me, right? Like, what did I do at 10 years old that, you know, caused this woman? She was an art teacher, by the way, right? Like, you're a grade school art teacher. Like, and you're... You haven't hit the pinnacle of success yourself, lady. Right?

Like, so clearly she was projecting some of her own, you know, shortcomings, insecurities. But anyways, that always stood out in my mind because she was an authority, right? And her telling me that I would end up in prison and she did this very openly amongst the entire class and, you know, other kids kind of latched on to that, like, thought it was funny. And this is where, like, I guess that hostility, that aggression, I really started acting out again. And it was just, you know, instead of a fresh start, things just continue to get worse. This was at school, and it wasn't any better when I got home. The neighborhood that I'm living in, you know, I'm the new kid in the neighborhood as well.

I'm probably the youngest or one of the youngest. And they're all a little bit older. And, you know, same thing as kids do. They give each other a hard time. but I, you know, wasn't willing to take that. So I end up getting in plenty of fights with the kids in the neighborhood. And there's one that stands out in my mind because this one kid, you know, probably been boxing since he was three years old from South Philly, you know, tough kid, and we're

going back and forth. Anyways, we start fighting. And this kid just keeps piecing me up. And I vividly recall this, right? Thankfully, we're kids, so we're not doing that much damage to each other, but my nose is bleeding, my eyes are water, and I can't see straight, and I just keep getting back up. The other kids in the neighborhood are like, just stay down, man.

And I remember, like, whatever it was inside of me, I was like, no, hell no. And I just kept getting up, kept getting up. And this guy was like, he was getting frustrated this kid because he just kept hitting me again. Bop, bop, bop, bop, bough. I'd fall, I'd get back up. Finally, they just walk away and leave me just standing there, you know, eyes running, nose bleeding.

And I'm like, yeah, I'll see you next time. That stands out in my mind because, you know, people always ask me, like, how did you deal with everything that came later? And I think that this was one of those moments where, I don't know, maybe I'm just wired a little bit differently. I'm one of those people that can tap into my frustration, my aggression, and just keep moving forward. Like, I just don't quit. And that ultimately, you know, in the years that followed this, served me well because I'm also a pretty good athlete. So as I got into sports, basketball, soccer, martial arts, I excelled.

it all of those things. And those, for the first time, brought me a lot of positive attention, right? A lot of positive reinforcement. And also open up some doors to some opportunities. So it was through those sports that I find myself kind of being pushed into positions of leadership, right? Where I was that standout athlete and they wanted me to, you know, to be the captain, to be the leader and I always kind of push that off like I wasn't comfortable in that situation I think what it was is because I didn't have a strong male present role model in my life somebody who was there like kind of guiding and leading me so I didn't know what it meant to lead so I kind of struggled with that and despite the fact that individually you know I was a very strong

athlete. I still, I didn't feel like I had found my place, right, especially within the team sports. But it was enough. It got me recruited to a famous AAU league called the Sunny Hill League in Philadelphia, where Kobe Bryant played in a bunch of other famous pro players came through about the same time. So I got exposed to that. I got recruited to a college prep high school. this is back in 1990. It's not like today where you see kids getting recruited out of high school and they're already talking about professional contracts and all these crazy things. Back then, this was unheard of. So they recruited our whole class and it was in the papers and there was all this interest around it, a lot of controversy as well. So I end up going to this college prep.

now I'm surrounded by all of this affluence. And although, you know, my mother is still hustling, working hard, putting in these crazy hours, she's doing well and she's moving up. I'm seeing all the things that I don't have. And that anger, that resentment that I had inside, like I started focusing on these, you know, other kids and other people. I'm like, how come I don't have this? And so that became my focus of attention, like, well, I want that too.

And although I didn't see the means to go and get it, legitimately, I wasn't a kid who was like, well, I'll go get a job and start working. In my mind, it was like, what's the easiest way for me to get this, to get what they have? It's to take it. Right? And that's, again, if you remember from the time I was this big with the neighborhood kids, oh, there's stuff. in there all we do is we go take it right many of those things that that i had learned early on i carried that with me nobody had taught me differently so um you know i get caught up in in doing burglaries robberies a string of other things you know um and that becomes basically

are you doing these on your own or with other kids no uh some on my own, but I end up hooking up with another group of guys, a little bit older. Are they going to the same school as you, or are they just in the neighborhood? A little bit of both. I had some other guys like in the neighborhood that I was in at the time where, you know, they were more than willing to go out and, you know, be involved as well because they were trying to make some money. But on the other side, the kids that I'm going to school with,

it's funny some of them are from philly right right their families have legitimate and some illegitimate businesses like we got kids you know booking bets we got kids selling jewelry you know like there's also that side of it um and i end up getting caught up in a stolen car ring where, you know, I'm looking at a way to make money like, hey, if I can get this car, bring it across the bridge, drop it off the chop shop, I can make some money. Well, some of this gets back to the school, the FBI gets involved, and I have two agents who show up at this school at this college prep, right? How old are you?

16 at this time. Now, I'm already on probation. I was on probation for the first time, like 11 or 12. So it's not like I haven't already had some run-ins with the law, right? But at this point, now it's the FBI. I'm a 16-year-old kid, and I got the FBI showing up to my high school and asking a look at yearbook pictures because they want to ID me. And the priest, who's the head of this school, comes out and goes, you know, what are you doing?

They're like, oh, we just want to talk to him. He's like, you got a warrant? And they're like, no. He said, we'll get the hell out of here. Right. And they're like, this is a priest like telling us this. And for me, I'm like, oh, this is great. Like, they're protecting me.

And they sneak me out of there and get me out of the school. And they're like, listen, don't come back for the next couple months. And I'm thinking this is a. a good thing, right? Like, somebody's looking out for my best interest. Right. Had nothing to do with me. The end of the year, they were happy to say, listen, take your stuff, get the hell out of

here. Don't come back. You're going to end up in prison. Yep. You're going to end up in prison one day. Well, I mean, at this point, I guess somebody could have seen this coming. So. There's a TikTok where the guy said, he's working.

I forget he's working some shitty construction job. and he goes to all those people that said I'd never amount to anything lucky guess you ever seen that he's like digging a ditch or something he's like lucky guess yeah

I mean I'm sure there were plenty of people who same thing when it finally did happen because within a year within a year I find myself in the county jail facing a state prison sentence. So instead of going off to college and believe me,

I had all these scholarships, offers, basketball, everything was lined up. I had this whole future, you know, that was open to me a chance to really get away from all this. And I just couldn't finish it out. When they told me to leave, like, that was it. I never pulled it back together. I'm drinking pretty heavy.

I'm dabbling with some. drugs. How old are you now? 17? Yeah, 17 years old and I'm just out running wild, right? I'm like, F it, man, I'll figure it out. And, you know, I'm doing burglaries of businesses, of high-end homes, you know, fencing jewelry. And honestly, at the time I was I was like really lost, feeling totally disconnected relationship with my mom, you know, we're on the East Coast, no family around. And so I really latched on to those people that I was out running the streets with and, you know, misplaced loyalty and trust that ultimately ended up getting me set up as I'm coming out of a hotel that I'm staying at.

You know, I'm there with this other guy comes to pick me up. It says, hey, man, we got to go take care of something. There's this whole situation going on. I need your help. I'm like, I got you. He goes, man, make sure you bring that thing with you. Gun. Bringing a pistol.

And I'm like, I got you. You know what I mean? I got your back. I'm with you. Picks me up as we come around the building. I see the first cop car, and I'm like, don't panic. I was like, it ain't nothing. I've got a pistol in my lap, right?

Right. This car comes, and the other one comes right here, and I'm like, oh, they're here for us. Like, now it's clear. And at the corner of my eye, I see movement right here, and I reach. I reach to pull this pistol up, and it comes through the window. and what what the the i don't know what it was that he smashed the window with i don't know if it was the the shotgun the barrel whatever it was but they got through that window and it was enough to distract me keep me from pulling that gun up i don't know how i didn't you know they didn't

shoot me they didn't kill me at the time um but ultimately i get dragged out of this car laid down right there, cuffed, shackled. You know, there's like 10 of them on top of me. And they gingerly walk him away from the scene. I'm like, that doesn't look right. Like, why am I the one on the ground? You know, it doesn't even want to register in my mind at this point. I'm like, he just walked me right into this.

So it was a setup. Right. So what are they grabbing, what are they arresting you for for the burglaries? burglaries and two-armed robberies. Okay. Now, keep in mind, I've just turned 18 years old. So I'm an adult. This is my first, like, major pinch.

And I'm like, eh, I'm not sweating it. And everybody's telling me, they're like, don't worry about it, kid. You're going to be fine. Listen, they're not going to give you any time. This isn't that serious. And I'm like, yeah, okay. armed robbery seems serious right me um is this state or federal this is state at the time but at the same time the feds are coming to see me they pull me out one day and they're like hey just want to make

sure you're okay just oh yeah visiting a whole wellness check right they're like uh you're in a little bit of trouble right now, huh? They're like, well, you want to talk about that stolen car ring or about anything else that was going on back there with all of your old friends, everybody over in the city? And I'm like, man, I ain't got nothing to see. I'd be like Jimmy was involved. Tommy, Bobby, Bill. I don't even like Bill.

Bill lives with his mom. I'll give you his address right now. Jimmy? Jimmy did. He's been involved since the beginning. I mean, I don't have to do any time at all. Well, you know, I told you, many of those lessons, what I was taught was right. You know, at that very young age was, man, when you get pinch, you don't say nothing.

Just keep your mouth shut. And I did, but listen. We care about you. Don't tell on your friends because we care about you. We're going to take care of your mom. We're going to send you money. going to come visit you we're going to answer your calls we're going to yeah sure none of none of those things right but at the time i'm thinking i'm doing the right thing this is my first big pinch you know

what i mean like they're going to look out for me that it was nothing nobody came there was no money no commissary money there was no help with the attorney there wasn't even a thank you right so anyways i end up i push them off i take the time in the state i take the time in the state I get a 12 with a four, four-year mandatory minimum on a 12-year sentence. So you've got to do at least the four. Send me off to state prison. Admittedly, at 18, that's ridiculous. That's fucking forever.

I understand what you're saying. Yeah. It's beyond what I can see at that point. Right. And so they send me off to, to the state prison to a youth correctional facility, which means roughly 18 to 31, straight gladiator school, right?

Like, that's a smart thing to do. Let's put all the young guys together. They send me there, and here's all the people from the neighborhood, all the guys that have gone off over the last few years, you know, a bunch of them, time on homicides, longer sentences, like they're there, they're not going anywhere. So I'm like right back in the mix, playing ball, going out to the yard. I'm doing more drugs in prison than I ever did on the street.

Like really didn't do a lot of drugs. I was drinking way too much, had an issue with that. But now I'm in prison. I'm doing drugs. My cellie has got the cops bringing in like a pound, literally a pound of weed at a time. and like it's just wake and bake and I don't even like to smoke but I'm like I'm not going to turn you down so this becomes part of the routine I go I get my GED in prison I start taking some college correspondence classes I end up in a carpentry shop and I'm like I got to do something while

I'm here can't just hit the yard all day every day so I do these things and I kind of go through the motions even take this substance abuse class because I'm like I need to get my you know, knock down or try and make parole on this first shot. So I take that, but I'm like, nothing really sticks, to be honest, right? I have no plan on what I'm going to do when I get out. I did stay in the law library and I found this kind of loophole, right, that basically said for a first time offender that they shouldn't have given me the 12 with a 4. It should have been a 9 with a 3. And I'm filing everything myself to the court. And I keep filing. And I keep filing. I get a hearing and they bring me back.

Yep, they bring me back to the county and it looks like I'm confident. I'm like, man, I'm going to beat this. I'm going to walk out of here. And it even seems like it. Listen, I'm back in the holding tanks, right? And, you know, everybody's back there and it's loud. It's just raucous. And the like, you know, public defender comes back there.

And she says, Mr. Claussen? I was like, yeah, right here. She says, can I just ask you, like, what do you expect from this motion today? I was like, I expect to go home. She starts laughing. Everybody starts laughing. Ah, he thinks he's going home today. Now I'm pissed.

I'm like, get the fuck out of here. Everybody shut up. Like, I'm ready to fight, right? And she leaves, like, she don't know what to do. She comes back about an hour later. or she's like, Mr. Claussen, I've got some really good news. It looks like the judge is going to let you go today. I was like, you heard that, right?

And everybody's like, holy shit, he's going to lead today. So now, like, from one extreme to the other, I'm like, all right, let's go. She goes, Mr. Claussen, your mother's out in the courtroom. The court clerk called your mother to come down here because the judge wanted to hear from her. And I'm like, okay, I don't know how that's going to go. because we're not on good terms at this time, like, you know, I'm just out on my own running crazy in prison. And so we go into court and judge is there and my public defender, my mother right behind us. My mom's like, hey, it looks like you're coming home today. And I'm like,

wow, you know, okay, this is great. You're happy. I was like, we'll talk. We'll figure this out. And they had called them all back into chambers. my mom, the public defender, and the prosecutor. So they go back there and the judge is like, listen, I'm going to let them go today. This is what's going to happen. We're going to come back out here. We're going to go on record and, you know, that'll be it.

Well, we get back out there. I am in the courtroom now. We go on the record. The judge is explaining all of this to put it on the record and comes back. The prosecutor says, excuse me, Your Honor. Excuse me. I'm sorry, but I think we over. overlooked something.

She goes, you know, if we're not, if we're going to waive his motion, that means this other mandatory minimum still applies. So he has to do three and one third years. And unfortunately, Mr. Claussen has only done three years. So technically, you can't let him walk out of here today. He's going to have to go back and see parole. And everybody else in the courtroom, including the judge, is just like, oh, What? Like, shut up, sit down. Like, you didn't have to interject. You didn't have to do that.

She was just waiting. She was waiting to drop that. Now, to this day, I don't know, but there was something personal. I don't know if it was her niece. I don't know if, you know, I harm, burned somebody in her family, whatever that was, but it was very personal. This woman wanted to make sure that I did not get out of prison. So here we are deflated. The judge is like, and at the time, like, it's a year, maybe 18 months to see the parole board. I haven't done any of the parole packet. Like, there's nothing.

So, because I'm not supposed to go for over a year on my original mandatory minimum. So the judge is like, hey, I'm going to put a special conditions in here. I'm going to get you up to see the board as soon as possible. I'm like, yeah, all right. I'll see you later. like appreciate the reduction, but honestly at this point, it's probably not going to amount to anything. So I go back to the prison and when I walk in, everybody's like, hey, you're back.

Like, what happened? We thought you were leaving today. And I'm like, man, long story, I'll tell you all about it after count. It's count time. I walk in right to count. Miss Wittis, this like 350 pound officer, sweetest woman ever, right? She's like, oh, baby, I'm so sorry. She's like, here you go.

Here's your mail. And when that mail hit my hand, I knew instantly, I'm like, ooh, this isn't good news. It's from my girlfriend at the time. And I use that term very loosely. She was off in college, going to Ivy League. She's at Villanova. Comes from a great family. Like, what the hell are you doing with a guy that's in prison?

It's a girl from the high school that I was at, right? That college prep. been holding on to this like we'll get out what when i get out we'll figure it out so this is the day that i go to court and almost walked out the door to start a new life instead i'd come back i'd get this i sit down on my bunk during count i open it up and the first line says i feel like i've wasted these last few years my life and i'm like damn this day just keeps getting worse right so now I'm completely deflated. I try and get on the phone after count. She won't answer. She obviously knows that the letter is there. And I'm like, oh, my God, what the, what the hell am I going to do now?

Because I really have no direction. I have no plan. You know, my whole mindset is if I can just get the hell out this door, I'll figure it out. Like, I've always been able to, you know, improvise and this, you know, with whatever the circumstance wasn't figured out in the moment. But anyways, that doesn't work out. So I spend the next year almost. I ultimately do three and a half total on that sentence. I get out before the four, but I do three and a half. I get paroled.

And on the day that I'm paroled, my mother comes to the prison to pick me up. Because all those other guys weren't sending me money. they weren't answering my phone you know and they sure as hell weren't there to pick me up that day right on came despite everything you know because i was definitely not a a great son um mom still came to pick me up she picks me up from the prison and as we're driving away driving down the road man tears just start streaming down my face and i'm like man i don't know what this is. I don't know what's happening. My mom looks over and goes, what's wrong with you. What I heard was anger, right? Honestly, it was just fear. My mom didn't know what was happening

with me. She didn't know how to deal with what she was seen. And she had no resource. Like, it wasn't like, I'm going to take you to see somebody. I'm, you know, we're going to get you some help. My mom was just lost. Right. So what I heard was anger. I shut it down. I bottled it back up. And I was like, man, I'll just keep all this inside like I had always done. And that was just everything that I had that had built up over those years just literally came pouring out in that moment. I had no control of it. I mean, I should have known at the time that I had some serious stuff I needed to deal with. Right. But I wasn't equipped. I'm 21 years old, right 21 years old so we go about you know make the rest of the trip home we go to the store

we stop at a grocery store on the way home and I'm in the store with my mom and just like I had heard guys are like oh when you get home you go to the store like you're not going to be able to be around people and I'm like yeah yeah yeah I'm none of that's going to affect me I go to the store and I wigged out a little bit. I got overwhelmed by, I don't know, everything in the store, all the people, everything. And I had to get out of there. I started feeling like the walls were closing in on me. Like a panic attack.

Straight panic attack. So I'm outside smoking, chain smoking. People are walking out the door. I must have looked crazy. And they're looking at me like, oh, he just got out of prison. Like I must have just had that look on me, right? At least that's what's going through my mind. My mom eventually comes out.

She's like, you know, again, are you okay? And my mom has like a frenetic energy. And so sometimes those emotions come off as kind of harsh. Like I know this now, you know, many years later, but at the time I didn't know how to interpret it. And so we get in the car, we leave. And I've got a job lined up. You know, I spent some time.

this carpentry class on the inside so through a family friend i've got a construction gig lined up but i'm on the phone immediately calling you know those people that they wanted information on i'm like hey you got a job for me you got this like what are we doing i haven't heard from you okay so you could answer my calls you were concerned whatever like now what oh we'll talk we'll talk i'm like okay well i'm ready to have this conversation um so i'm going to work in the mornings and I'm going to this construction gig and every morning when I show up it's all these guys that are hungover they're absolutely miserable right right those guys that yeah gravitate or construction jobs yeah you know and I'm looking around at 21 years old I'm like this is not

my future like I can't do this it is the way you were headed right and I was like man that first bad day and if I'm being honest it was probably about two weeks in I was like eff this I'm out of here I walked off never looked back and you know from there I was following up on those people that I thought felt like they owed me something made a trip down the shore to Atlantic City stop at one of the restaurants like what do we do it like what do you got for me and they were basically just spinning me around and they had the feds down there so one of the places they invited me to so i walk in right um i walk in they're sitting at the end of the bar and it's the two of them and on the other side there's this guy a little bit further down he's got

a whole lot of drinks untouched in front of them i notice it but i don't say anything i sit down You know, we're talking, and I'm like, Michael orders another round. He's like, yeah, another round and one for him as well. Lines another one up. I'm like, who fuck is this? And he goes, ah, that's the agent that's following him around. I'm like, on July 18th, get excited. This is big!

For the summer's biggest adventure. I think I just smurf my pants. That's a little too excited. Sorry. Smurfs. Only dinner's July 18th. I just got out of prison. You're on parole?

I'm on state parole. Not supposed to be around criminals or felons or. And you guys invite me to come here. I'm like, oh, Jesus, man. They're looking out for your best interest, bro. They just care about you. Oh, yeah. They definitely were.

So I end up walking away from that. And I think this was probably even before. before I walked off the other job, but I walk away from that job and I end up. I vividly recall first time crossing that state line going across the bridge, Ben Franklin Bridge from South Jersey into Philly. And I remember like gripping the steering wheel. I'm like, I'm crossing state lines. This is a straight violation.

Yeah. The parole office is right there. It's on the river in Camden. You can see it. And you can see across the bridge. I mean, it's like some of these rules are. are really ridiculous, but I know they can violate me for this, right? So as I'm cruising by the toll booths, I'm like, I wonder if they're looking for my

plates. Like, are they watching me like that? I don't even know. I get across the bridge. I'm like, there's no lights. I make that hard, right? Come back around. I'm like, nobody's following me.

And I go over to meet a buddy of mine, one of the guys that I went to high school with. And so for most of them, most of those people that I went to high school with, they went on to, you know, some pretty good schools. Philadelphia's got a bunch of them there. I mentioned Philadelphia, St. Joe's, Temple, U.Pen, Drexel, and most of them are all right there. So they're either going to school or they've gone off to school, but there's a few who've stayed local that have chosen to go the other route. Right. They're in the streets. That's part of what their families do. And they have access to, you know, all of the other side. And it was basically just thrown in my lap like, oh, you want to get into the drugs? You want the drug trade? Here you go. Here's something to get you started. You know, and this is the 90s. It's cocaine. It's ecstasy. It's ketamine. Like, we're off and running full speed. And I hadn't really been doing a lot of drugs up to that point, but that just, that changed. And all of those things that when I, we were driving away from the prison that I had been bottling up, you know, I'd been covering those up with the alcohol and now it's the drugs on top of it.

I never dealt with that stuff, right? I just kept trying to bury it further and further. And by all external appearances, you know, I was having a good. run. I spent a couple years, you know, in the limelight in downtown Philadelphia, the restaurants, the bars, the clubs, you know, VIP, front of the line access because I got all these drugs on me, right? And it looks like a good life. And again, in your early 20s, you know, where like everybody wants to be out and about, those that went off to school are like, Man, like, look, you come home and you got all this and everything looks great.

But I was so lost. I felt so alone. And I just couldn't figure it out. And I couldn't cover it up. And I was just running wide open. And the drugs just got so out of hand. Eventually, I get violated. Did you fail a urine test or something?

Failed a urine. Imagine that. I couldn't hide it. right this is the best right this tells you my state of mind kind of where i was at this point so i i'm supposed to go in on like let's say it's a wednesday so i had these two girls at the house with me and i'm like i'm not going today i'm just going to make the most of this i vividly recall what prison is this is too good i'm going to enjoy the moment I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing and we'll go tomorrow.

So I call and I tell him like, hey, I'm not coming today. How about tomorrow? He's like, you better be here before 5 p.m. tomorrow. I'm like, yeah, all right. So the next day, one of the girls is still there with me. I'm like, come on, I need you to take a ride with me just in case. So we take a ride down and I have this jacket on, this leather jacket, right? Now, this is Camden County.

At the time, late 90s, Camden's like Beirut. right 5 p.m. the gates come down and it's a ghost town even downtown like cops won't patrol it's it's nuts it's completely out of control so we go downtown i park right out front i go in with her and we go up into like the waiting room smells like urine it's absolutely it's disgusting like the most horrific place it's like why would you bring this girl here this poor girl And so we're sitting there and I reached in my pocket. I'm like, oh, shit. I have this rock of cocaine straight off the brick that I've been piecing off.

Right. In my pocket. Right. I'm at parole, getting ready to go in. Right. I know I'm going to get tested. They're going to search me. And I'm like, oh, shit.

I was like, hey, listen, take my jacket. Here's my keys. If anything happens, if I don't come out for any reason, go out front, get in the car, head down the street, right down 1.30, go to the shop, tell Lou what's going on. You know what I mean? Let them know I got picked up. Call the attorney. So this is the plan. And she looks at me like tears in her eyes.

She's like, what? You're not coming back out? I was like, listen, it's going to be fine. I'm saying, if I don't come back out for whatever reason. and just so you have a plan, you know what to do. She's like, okay. And I remember putting this jacket on her and her just looking so small and like frail.

And I'm like, I can't believe I'm doing this to her. So they buzz the door, you know, and they tell me, come on in, I go in. Now I'm walking through and it's all, you know, cubicles that are all three, four feet high. I can see straight across. and it goes all the way to the back. In the middle, there's like, it looks like a phone booth.

And that's where they do the urins. It's literally a phone booth in the middle of the room. You step in there with your agent, you know, they do the urine, you walk back out, whatever. But behind that, there's a whole other section. It's like their secretary pull, their administrative pool. And there's a group of women on the left-hand side, these younger ladies, that I used to see in the city all the time. they'd come into some of the some of the places like the uh martini bar and the first time i saw him i kind of panicked i'm like oh shit those are the girls from from parole but they're admin

they're not agents right right i'm like listen take care of them whatever they want i was like send me their tab i was like it's on me this happened a couple times so whenever i'd walk in there they'd see me, they'd be like, hi, hi. Like, we're on the same page, right? At this time, they didn't do that, right? They did not. They just kind of looked and go, hmm, and I'm like, hmm, but I'm in complete denial. So I have a senior agent, so he's not in the main pool, you walk over, and there's a doorway.

And it's a hall, and there's like four offices on each side. So we walk over. as soon as we turn that corner and I stepped through, here we are again. Here's SWAT, slammed against the wall, jacked up. I'm like, what the? There's like eight agents. They got me cuffed. And I'd always look down the end of the hall.

It looked like a door, like the door to a closet, right? There was no deadbolt, no nothing, just like a little doorknob. And they've got me cuffed up. They turned me. They're like, all right, we're out of here. my agent's like I told you I told you not to mess with me I was like oh what is this personal like you're going to teach me a lesson because because I I peaked dirty like that's what this is about we're walking down the hallway that door opens that I think is a closet it opens into the garage the parking garage and there is a car with the back door open waiting I was like oh this is serious and they push me head first slam me into the car close the door. I'm in the back of a cop car. I was like, wow, okay, that was fast. And I'm trying to tell him, I was like, hey, please tell, tell her to take off, let her know I'm not coming back out.

They're like, yeah, yeah, we'll let her know. I'm like, oh, man, this is all bad. They take me right next door, Camden County Jail, to where I sat for the next 90 days. you know and camden like i said it's beirut i'm a young good-looking white kid going into going into the belly of this beast right and they give you a bed roll and they roll up you know it's a mattress this thick yeah the damn thing weighs a hundred pounds right it's so heavy and it's got you know your blankets everything else rolled up in it and they're like here here's your stuff carry your shit they don't even come in the blocks there They have a pod in the middle, a central control unit, and then there's like four units.

And they've never come out of that central part. They walk me in through the one slider. They're like, go that way. Close the door. They tell me stand over at a unit, a unit slider open up. They're like, find a cell. You don't get a sign. Go find a bunk, man.

And it's not find a bunk. They're four to five deep in every. single cell. You roll your mat out, you're sleeping on the floor. You got two bunks, but there's at least two or three other people in that cell with you. So here we go. Walking in and they're looking at me like, oh man, who is this? Who is this pretty boy coming in here? Fortunately, I've been around the system a little bit, right? And a little bit of a reputation. As soon as I walk in, I see my man, Nino. And he's like, oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

That's my guy right here. So I'm like, whoo, thank God, because it was about to get real ugly, right? Like from the door. So I'm like, thank God this dude's here. So, and he looked exactly like Wesley Snipes, but bigger. Right. So if he said you're all right, then nobody's going to question it. Immediately, yeah.

The vanilla ice is with me. it's exactly what it was man and i was like thank god um because there was way too many i didn't stand a chance so take it i find a cell he's like man there's there's a group of Hispanics back there you can probably sell up with them i'm like cool i go back talk to them i get in this cell now my attorney at the time has an office directly across the street He's partners with a famous mob attorney. This guy, Lou Savino, but Leon, Leon has been helping to keep us out of trouble somewhat. But he's got his own issues, man.

Like, I'll get a phone call from his secretary or his personal assistant. Like, he was supposed to be in court today. Like, do you know where he is? I'm like, no. That's not a good call. She's like, I haven't seen them in three days. I was like, oh, Jesus. I was like, let me make some calls.

Let me see if I can find them. And I'd find them in these, like, in a drug house. Right. At a strip bar in North Philly, like the middle of the afternoon, where you walk in and it's like pitch black, you're like, what? What? Dude, what are you doing in here? Like half passed out in the bar with like two strippers well beyond their prime.

Right. No, one in each arm, like getting them for everything. He's gotten, I'm like, oh, come on, man. We got to get out of here. So it was an interesting relationship. So I'm immediately on the phone. I'm like, man, you need to get over here. I was like, I need cigarettes.

I need this. I need that. And so I get a legal visit. The next morning, he comes up. He's like, Jesus, man, here's your cigarettes. Here's this. So I'm like, pocket and everything. I'm out there on a legal visit at 7 a.m.

Right. that's a good that's a good attorney it considering it depends on what kind of it depends on what kind of inmate you are it all depends right it all depends for the purposes and the state that I was in at that time he was the best he was absolutely the best um but things would take a turn later on so I'm on him like every day I'm like man what the hell is going on here he's like listen your paperwork has not been filed you're just you're in limbo you're on a hold i'm like well force their hand man like get me the hell out of here like everything inside me is saying like run run run like i need out that's the only thing that i can think of um you know and

i said man i'll never end up back in prison but here i am back in the county jail I just can't wait to get out the door. And then all of a sudden, one day, about 90 days later, you know, we have been pushing the issue. Hear it over the speaker, clawson, pack it up, you're out. I'm like, damn, I'm out of here. So I'm like, you know, peace. I'm out. Grab my bed roll.

Get down. Book club on Monday. Gym on Tuesday. Date night on Wednesday. Out on the town on Thursday. Quiet night in on Friday. It's good to have a routine. And it's good for your eyes, too.

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With its delicious combination of big, crunchy, salty peanuts covered in creamy caramel and chewy fudge with a chocolatey coating. Swing by a gas station and get an O'Henry today. Oh hungry, oh Henry. There's all my properties gone. Everything that I checked in with, gone. I'm like, okay. So I am walking out the second week of January on the East Coast, January and Jersey, right, freezing cold. I'm in flip-flops, bus pants, and a t-shirt. $0. I have a single-page printout that is a bill for the cost of my incarceration.

Well, where's your stuff? They just can't find it. They're saying we can't find it. They're like, we must have lost it, disappeared, jewelry, everything else, it's gone. Believe me, this happens all the time, especially back then. I mean, there might be a little bit more oversight now, but not back then. So they're like, basically you're beat, right? So walk out the back door, this bill, it was like $1,500 for the cost of my incarceration, charging per day, whatever it was.

I head out the back door, the slider opens, and like instinctively, in flip-flops, I start running down the street. I take off because I'm like, I don't want them to change our mind, come back, you know, violate me, whatever the deal. And I get up to the corner and it's a McDonald's, right? It's a McDonald's. And there's a woman who's working there. She's in her McDonald's uniform. She's like, oh, just got out of the county jail, didn't you? I was like you can tell I was like you got a quarter I need to make a phone call this is back

when they had pay phones still right right I need a phone call can I get a cigarette I'm bumming a cigarette and change from the woman that works at McDonald's right that tells you where I'm at this point so I get on the phone and I don't know why I called him first but I called this guy and said, hey, man, I'm out. He's like, where are you? I'll be right there to get you. And I'm like, no, no, no, no. Let me get Lou to come get me.

He's right down the street. And he's like, no, no, no, I'll be there. And he's like 40 minutes away. He's like, I'm getting in the car right now. Hang up. And I'm like, who's the guy? Well, this guy would become one of my co-defendants on my federal case. He's a guy that I did time with in the state that.

He made a friend. Oh, yeah, made another good friend, lifelong friends, right? Who, you know, had told me, hey, man, you know, when you get out, come, come look me up. And he had actually found me. And this guy's doing good. He was a union boss down in the docks like had a life set up like legit life he's got a wife he's got a child at home and this guy wants to come out run the streets wants to be in the clubs you know that that whole life right all appearances like I said that look pretty glamorous like he wanted that he felt like he missed that um so he gave up his legit life you know to to be involved here to be in the drug scene doing all of this, but he clearly was not cut out for it. So he picks me up and from there

we go down to the shop where I have some stuff put up in the safe. And I've got money out on the street, but over the course of 90 days, my house gets sold out from underneath me. That car that was out front, she left it at the house that I was living at the time. you couldn't park in the street. It had to be in a driveway. You know what I mean? There was no parking on the street. She left it in the street.

Nobody moved it. It gets impounded, then repoed because it's in the impound yard. So I've lost the car. The phone is turned off and gone. House sold out from underneath me. All of my belongings had been thrown in this box truck where the guys from the shop had packed it all up, literally thrown in like, garbage bags, like pieces of furniture just tossed in their half hazard, right?

So when I get to the shop and I get out to the warehouse, there is a pile, a pile, just a mound of my stuff in this open warehouse space. And I'm like, you got to be shitting me. Like, this is what you guys did with my stuff. So I very quickly realized, like, I'm in a pretty tough situation. I've got all this money out on the street. I've got little to work with. I feel like I'm behind the eight ball. I don't know when the next shoe is going to drop because probably a month earlier, I had left this out. Month earlier, I get a panicked phone call. Hey, they just raided the house. Now, this was the house over in South Philly. And I'm like, okay, what's going on. They're like, I don't know. I was like, have you been by there? No, I won't go near there. I was

like, I'm going to take a drive by. So I drive by and literally the outside door is wide open. I'm looking up and down the street. I circled the neighborhood. I'm like, I don't know. I'm going to give it a shot. So I go up in there. I go up in the house and this was one of the big stash houses. If you can believe it or not, I found drugs still in the house. That they had, for whatever reason, the cops had somehow overlooked, I don't know. I don't know how they missed it, but I grabbed these drugs. But I know, like, the gig is up because I can already tell something's off. Somebody's talking.

I'm like, I need to cut ties. I need to move on. I've got a pistol on me. Keep in mind, I'm on parole for all of this. Supposed to be over in New Jersey, not supposed to be across the bridge, not supposed to have drugs, It's not supposed to have weapons, none of these things. So very much not law-abiding in any way. I'm like, let me get back to Jersey.

I get across the bridge. I go to this river. I take this piece. I'm like, I know this thing is dirty. Supposedly there's all sorts of crimes attached to this. I need to get rid of this. Literally throw it in the river. Ain't nobody ever going to find that thing.

Right. Right. Move on from that. Take the rest of the drugs. Dump those off to somebody else. And I'm like, my hands are washed, right? But then I start getting these phone calls with this guy ask me about this thing and about was there anything else there. And I'm like, it's starting to get a little, little hectic. I'm like, I might have some problems here. And I'm not sure how I'm going to have to be. deal with them. But it's definitely seeming like a pretty serious situation. And so that was part of my reason for just, I need to step back from all of this, take a time out, get away from this, see how this all plays out, and then figure out what's next for me. So I got a friend who's down in Florida.

He's getting into just getting into real estate at the time. He's like, man, you need to come down here. And I was like, man, bro, that sounds like a great change of pace. Come down to Florida. I just got a couple more months on parole. As soon as I'm done parole, I'm coming. He's like, man, you need skip parole. Just come down.

I was like, no, I can't do that. I said, I'll be down in a few months. So this is right before I get violated. I do 90 days. Now I come out. So I come out, I have the bill for the cost of my incarceration, I have money out on the street. I can't get back into this because the cops, the feds are all over this whole drug scene. I need to keep my distance.

So this guy that I did time with in the state is like, man, I got you. I know an easy score. Back to the robberies, right? And so listen, over the course of the next three weeks, remember I walk out in January, this is through February or the end of January, beginning of February, over the course of three weeks, I commit a string of nine different robberies that I'm charged with in the feds, right? There were other robberies.

There were other drug dealers that I hit up, kicked down doors, you know, the whole literally but these are the ones you know about yeah um and and in my young immature thinking the way that I rationalize this is man they're all in the game all these people they're all in the life they know what they're involved in like don't get upset you know if somebody else comes to take what's ill gotten this is how I rationalize it right right um So anyways, the majority of these, the ones that I get charged with, are Asian massage parlors that also they operate. Obviously, their house is a prostitution. There's drugs coming through there.

There's gambling. There's all sorts of things, right? And thinking, again, this is all off the books, what are they going to do? Call the cops. So I'm out collecting not only old debts, but I'm now trying to collect for. all of these people shaking them down, right? Shake downs, robberies, whatever you want to call it. And this takes place over the course of three weeks where ultimately a phone call is made. I'm at 1812 Ludlow, downtown Philadelphia, literally two blocks from City Hall, a place known

to be frequented by city officials and others, right? Hot little spot down here. and man, we go up in this place and we're like, hey, like, this is what it is. Like, what do you got? Give us whatever you got in the house. We're taking whatever it is. And they start freaking out. They're not giving anything up easy. They have security there.

We've already taken out security. There's five of us, right, that roll into this place, secure multiple floors. I mean, it's guns drawn. people tied up, you know, duct tape, the whole deal. And somebody got out. A civilian who was here, not involved in anything illegal, calls 911. And at the time, what we don't know is that there are all of these undercover units staked out because there's a stalker downtown, a serial killer that they're,

the cops are trying to catch. Okay. So the huge police presence, I mean, basically undercover police presence down there, which you guys were totally unaware of. Totally unaware of. This person calls 911. They've been sitting in these vans, right? PS ENG van, like energy vans and staked out.

And it's early morning, late night, early morning. And they're like, oh, we're moving on this. go when I tell you the sirens were like this the laser lights across through the windows I'm like holy shit what the hell just happened and in my mind I look out and I'm like there's a back door we can slide out the back door get to the back and see that there are lights out there and honestly in my mind what what I did was a quick analysis how many bullets can I make it out

if I head straight out this door do we have enough bullets to shoot our way out of here to get out of here and just get clear like that's in my mind what I'm thinking is whatever I got to do to avoid going back to prison right

because I know it's serious I know I'm facing some time I do the quick math I see the laser lights I'm like And they got many 14s. I was like, I ain't going to make it. It's not going to happen, right? So very quickly, we got everybody down, secured in different parts of the house.

We pull up unusual suspects. Remember the movie? Yeah. The whole guys are so say like blend in. Right. Like, we're just going to blend in and roll out of here. And so eventually SWAT breaches. right we've ditched everything they breach they pull everybody out of the house they've got us all

in the street all in the walls they don't know what the hell this was a full house right so there's a lot of people in here men women like it's a lot so they got us all out here in the street they don't know what to do i end up in a car with a couple other guys now we're cuffed but we're not it's nothing harsh and they're going to take us down they're just going to take some statements figure it all out right and honestly i think that at that time they were to taking some statements they would have been like whatever they weren't in any hurry to really sort it out right right but then i look back i look back and i see in this other car it was a bronco a police bronco came to pick me up. He's in the backseat by himself. There's no cops in there and he's just

looking looking at me like and I looked and I was like, no. I just had this feeling that's not in my stomach. I was like, no way, man. When you're a forward thinker, you don't just bring your A game. You bring your AI game. Workday is the AI platform that transforms the way you manage your people, money, and agents, so you can transform tomorrow. Workday, moving business forever forward. Cop comes up to the door, looks, looks, opens it, he's like you, come here, pulls me out, and he's like trying to play it off, but I'm like, something's wrong here. There's no reason he should be pulling me out of this car.

He pulls me out, separates me, puts me in this other car. And I'm like, next thing, you know, we end up myself and my co-defendants who are all part of this in these tombs down at Central Detectives. And that's what they look like. It is in underground, basically like a mausoleum, you know, from like the 1800s in these little small steel cages where they kept us for, I don't know, like 48 hours for questioning. And during this time, what later comes out is that that same guy basically told him, listen, I've got information with connections to organize crime around drug trafficking, these other robberies, all of these other things. I'll talk to the FBI, the ATF, the DEA. You tell me, like, whoever wants to listen, I'm talking. Bring them.

and he mentioned some names and I think I think you had one of them on I believe you interviewed him or you were talking about him Joey Marlino oh yeah South Philly Mountain right

and at the time like they had a hard on for them they really really wanted those guys they had already beaten one case so the pure mention of Merlino anyone in his crew links to drug trafficking and you know the drug conspiracies like all you need is someone who's in a

position to say yep that guy did it and I gave him this like that's it it's done he knew it was going on you're a part of the conspiracy so they so I don't so he mentioned Merlino yeah but Merlino's not connected to your robbery he started telling him all about the drug trafficking. Oh, just by mentioning Merlino, suddenly they wanted to take him serious. They thought, hey, he might connect us to Merlino. He said, listen, here's what we're doing. He said, you got us here.

There's a string of these robberies. He goes, but what's really what you should be interested in is all the cocaine, the ecstasy, the ketamine, like, and it's linked to all these people. Remember, I told about that big bus with the stash house, which is why I walked away. Now, there may or may not have been some connections there. Right. I was simply someone who was in a position just because I was in so many different places connected to so many different people. The reality is we never did any of those deals.

Right. Never. I can say that definitively. And never even had a conversation about any of those. But because of appearances and honestly they were just so hard on for him, the mention of him in proximity to all of this, they didn't do their due diligence, but the feds came swooped right in, charged us up for the robberies, thinking that they could leverage all of that and get us to cooperate. That was the whole plan from day one, right? So when they finally do bring us in, they bring us into, you know, federal court to be arraigned, all of this, questioning by the FBI, you know, they start threatening.

They're like, you know, you're looking at hundreds of years because you used a gun. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know you're going to run them all consecutive. And yeah, they're like, no, no, no, we can do this. I'm like, okay, they're like, hmm, you think you're smart, right? you'll be back. I was like, ain't happening.

I go back, open up the law books, I'm like, oh shit, this is crazy. They can actually give me a couple hundred years for the way that they want to charge me.

I was like, this is nuts. So at the time, there is no pretrial detention in Philadelphia. They send me to FCI schoolkill. I get to Schukel, and it's the same thing.

Like, know and um you know just right back in the mix and skooka was a good spot back then so i'm like oh this is all right i can wait out trial here no problem well they only keep me there about 30 days and they shipped me over to ferretin i'm at ferretin for a couple weeks joey was there at the time joey merlino and the other guys in his crew right because they're all getting ready to go to trial. What year is this? This is going to be 2000. 2000. So all this is lining up, right? And I end up going down to, I guess it was my arraignment, my official arraignment with all of these charges. And I go in and I told you about our attorney, my buddy Leon,

right that I'd rescue out of the crack houses the bars all of that stuff he tells me my cousin my cousin Charles Marrake Charles is the best Charles is going to take good care of you I'm like okay so I get down there Charles has got me all right I end up they've got me cuffed to a desk in an interrogation room with the U.S. attorney with all these agents hit me with questions and I'm like y'all can go fuck yourself I got nothing to say say, where's my attorney for the 20th time? And they're like, oh, don't worry about it. He's coming.

He's coming. And they're just like poking because they're telling me like bits and pieces. They're like, what? You think your girls aren't talking? They're like, you know, we've been to the houses. We've talked to them all. You know, you think your girl this and that. Now, the girl I'm living with at the time, admittedly, stripper, like, you know, caught up

in all sorts of the drug scene and everything else. but I didn't even know the half of it, right? Like when they raided the house, they found like bogus plates and the cars that were registered to her were actually like registered to other people. There was just like all sorts of this other fraud and shady stuff going on that I had no idea about that she's trying to push off on me. And I'm like, what the hell? So they're telling me things and I'm just sitting there.

I'm like, I'm listening. I'm like, whatever. in walks my attorney. He's like, gentlemen, gentlemen, like buddy, buddy. He's like, yeah, can you give me a few minutes with them? They leave and I'm like, man, what the hell is this? Like, where have you been? I've been in here for like 30 minutes with these people trying to, you know, get you in here.

And you're taking your sweet time. Like, what's up? He's like, uh, listen, man. He's like, you know, you got to make a decision here. like you really don't have any other choice you're going to have to cooperate I'm like what that's your legal advice what the hell are you talking about I was like does your cousin know that you're saying this he's like don't worry about my cousin he's got his own problems which which was true because he wound up under

indictment because of him like when I tell you things just got so crazy like it's come i it boggles my mind even to this day how all of this went down and he's like listen you're either going to cooperate you're going to go ahead and tell them whatever they want to hear or are you going to do life in prison he's like that's the option he's like i don't know about you but it seems pretty simple to me i was like are you out of your mind i was like that ain't going to happen man i was like and when your cousin finds out i was like you're going to have an issue here, right? And he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, don't worry about him. And this guy is, like, so nonchalant. He's like, you've got your own problems. He's like,

you know, he's like, all they want you to do, you know, is talk about these guys with the, with the drug stuff. I was like, that's not a true. Joey. Oh, they want you to talk about it. He's like, that's all they really want. I was like, do they want you to connect Merlino? to the drug organization. They want us to say that somehow there's a connection here that somehow we were getting drugs, we were moving drugs with them, whatever that looks like. Because this idiot, the guy that had sold him this whole dream, he cocked this whole story and got him excited about it.

I don't know what he all told him, but it was enough to get him excited for them to think, okay we got something that's the only reason they picked up our case that's the only reason when that we were there like no no offense to the people involved in my crimes but the feds were never interested in them it wasn't about them right they had their own self-serving purposes of what they were trying to pursue so that's what ultimately and that became very clear in that moment. And I said, well, that's not going to happen. You know, you can tell them whatever you want to tell him. He's like, well, I guess I can't do anything for you then. He's like, that's the end of this. And I'm like, what? They take me downstairs and on the way out, they're talking about going

golfing. I kid you not, golfing that weekend together. And I'm like, oh, this can't be real. none of this can be real like this is just too too surreal i get down to the courtroom i get they call my name i go up they say you know mr clauston where's your attorney i was like he just quit the judge looks over at the prosecutor and says excuse me like miss murky's not showing up today he says no he quit your honor the judge goes hmm okay court clerk can we please assigned Mr. Claussen a new defense attorney, and we will bring him back here on Monday to make sure that we properly arraigned him. And I'm like, wait a minute, you can't do this. First of all, my attorney cannot just quit. You can't, like, that's not legal for him to just walk away.

Judge is like, don't worry about it, Mr. Claus. We'll bring it back here on Monday. Yeah, we'll get you another attorney. You'll be right. They parade me out of there, put me back on the bus, take me back to Ferriton and I'm just spinning. I'm like, wow, they are really just going to do whatever they want to do. And they did. They did. And they sent me back to Ferriton. I came back Monday. I go into court. Here's this other Sandra Bird. As you say, it's shocking when it doesn't work the way you think it works. You know, it's like it's eye opening, especially when they, when they, when you realize that they don't follow their own rules. It's always like, wow. Yeah, I got to be honest, at that point, I was pretty scared. Like, I knew that all the rules were out the door, right? They were

going to do whatever they wanted to do. Right. And it was my decision. I was either going to cooperate with them or I was going to, I was probably going to do life in prison. And I made a conscious decision in that moment. I said, listen, I am not. I'm going to stand on who I am, where I am, like, this is it. I made that decision, forced their hand, made them take me to trial. Of the five of us, two, because the original who was cooperating was always cooperating, we lost one who, you know, was like, I'm going with him. He tapped out and he left. And then there was the three of us, and the three of us that stood together. So when I came back for my arraignment on that Monday, I got to open up the fifth floor of

7th and Arch, which is the Federal Detention Center in downtown Philly. Now, I told you, my case takes place around Center City, Philadelphia, within a 10-square block radius basically, like all right there. Like that's where I had spent the majority of that time. Downtown Philadelphia, most people that, you know, end up in federal prison, they're not from that area. Like, that's not where their crimes generally happen. I used to drive by Seventh and arch every day as it was being built, sometimes multiple times a day, had no idea that it was going to be a federal prison or a federal detention center, right? Here I am up on the fifth floor trying to squeeze my head in this narrow window to look down on the street and I'm seeing people

I know walk by. I'm seeing friends of mine drive by. And I've got this boot that I'm banging on the window because I don't have anybody's phone number. They've taken my phone. And at this time, you know, it's electronic Rolodex. Like, if you lost your phone today, how many phone numbers would you know off the top of your head? I don't know anybody's. None. And this was, even though, those cell phones were new, they were not smartphones. I had everything in my phones. So I didn't have anything committed to memory. I'm cut off from the world and I'm looking out this window going, wow, I am screwed. Am I ever going to see those streets again? Am I ever going to walk out there? I was like, this is serious. Like everything stacked against me. I know that they're not

playing fair. My family, who I was able to get in touch with, they're still back in the Midwest, like my father and his wife, I reached out to them and find out the last time that I called, they tell me don't call again. The FBI. For a limited time at McDonald's, enjoy the tasty breakfast trio. Your choice of chicken or sausage McMuffin or McGrittles with a hash brown and a small iced coffee for five bucks plus tax.

Available until 11 a.m. at participating McDonald's restaurants. Price excludes flavor. Coffee and Delivery. Called here. They told us what you're involved in, that you were part of these dollar store robberies that we see on the news where they violently executed all of the store managers. We didn't know anything like this about you. We don't want anything to do with you.

Don't call here ever again. Right. But obviously that's not true. I was like, wait. I'm assuming there, I mean, you want to clarify that? false. Completely false. None of that. I had zero connection. I was never a suspect. No one I was associated was a suspect. In fact, they had very clear suspects who were all African American. Clearly, I'm Caucasian. No connection. But this is the FBI, right? And this is still, this is 2000,

the year 2000. Are you suggesting that the FBI would lie and manipulate a situation? I don't know how I feel about that. Shocking, I know. They are the, they are the, uh, crim de la cram of law enforcement. So if you're suggesting they'll do that, what are you suggesting the DEA, ATF, um, Secret Service and, and the, yeah, and the state and local will, locals will do. Right. I'm starting to feel that you don't have. of a high appreciation of law enforcement.

At this time, I'm sure now it's vastly different. At this time, like, it's war, right? I was like, these are people who are, they're literally trying to kill me. They're trying to bury me in prison forever. If I don't knowingly lie to satisfy what they want, right? right so as if it hasn't gotten crazy enough the three of us are now going to go to trial and they've tried to cut off our families they've done this to all of us very systematically

um they came by account one day and kicked in a box you know cuff up do all this kick in a box of materials for anyone who doesn't know what a 302 is a 302 is notes from an interview than an FBI agent does with someone, right? FBI 302s. 302s. So here's a box. A box of just 302s. Of people that have spoken to the FBI about you.

So this is discovery. Yes. And this. It must have been a little box, though, because your friends wouldn't, they wouldn't have talked to you. The same guy. that certainly not the same guys that you're refusing to talk about. No, no, no, no, this is even better.

I shouldn't say that. It's not even better. This was the most disheartening, demoralizing part of this experience because it was all those other people that I was trying to reach out to, friends, people I had grown up with that weren't connected to this. But almost all of them had something to say. negative connecting me to something illegal to it was just

all of these statements no wait a second what about the code I'm not going to sit here and listen to you say that the code of the streets is a lie man well I'm not even talking about

I'm not even talking about street guys right like not even the stand up guys well at least I know the trial, at least, went your way. Oh, yeah. Right? So, of course, the trial. So eventually we get to that point.

Right before trial, we go to pretrial, because this is a good part of it. So the three of us have been very tight on this housing unit, haven't left. It's in clues. You don't go anywhere. You know, there's a wreck deck attached to it. You're living in close quarters. We don't talk to anybody. We don't interact with anyone.

It's the three of us. That's it. Well, we go down for a pretrial suppression hearing over identification testimony because it comes out through discovery that the only way that any of us, myself included, were ever identified, was through a Polaroid photo that had FBI number. It wasn't my prison number, just, I don't know, some random number. and it's got my picture on there. And they took that picture and showed it to individuals and said, isn't this, Mr. Adam Clausen, isn't this the guy who was at this place at this date and this time? Just that picture.

And they were like, yep, that's him. Now, if you know anything about the legality of a photo array or in-person lineup, it's meant to discourage misidentification to make sure that. that there are multiple choices. There were no other choices. And then in those instances during the grand jury, during the grand jury, mind you, where they have explained to the witness what the scenario is, who the person's involved are. Now they've taken myself and my co-defendants and put each of our Polaroids, no others, right in front of the individual in the grand jury box and said, isn't this Mr. So-and-so and so-and-so? Weren't they the people who were at this

place at this day and time, and they go, yep, that's how we were identified. Legally, that is the most illegal identification ever. We've now gone into a pretrial hearing where the judge has looked at this and gone, all right, this doesn't look very good. Like, I don't know how we admit this and let this into court. And the prosecutor is now going crazy. Like, what do you mean? Like, we can't have any of these witnesses testify that it was them? And he's like, I don't know. Like, I think we're going to have to make a determination right here. And it looks like he's leaning like he's going to throw all this out. And the prosecutor's like, no, no, no, no, there's no way. We're going to have to do this one on one

and we'll bring them in in front of the jury. And the judge goes, okay, how many witnesses are we talking about? He's like, oh, there's so many of them. They're like, we don't have time to do this right now. And the judge says, well, I'm going to do something uncharacteristic since, you know, federal court, you don't get a witness list. You get discovery. You don't get a list of who the government is going to call, different from state court. So he says, I'm going to give you 20 minutes, 20 minutes for you and your colleagues to go out in the hall, figure out who's on that witness list. And whatever names you bring back in here, those are going to be the only people that will be permitted to test by during

this trial. If those names, if there's anyone who's not on that list, you cannot bring them in later. And we're like, yes, okay, this looks like it's going to be a win for us. So they go out, 20 minutes later, they come back in. And I'm sitting there. I got my pad, my pen, and starting to write these down. And I look, and I'm like, I don't recognize these people. There's like a block of names. My co-defendants going, hey, hey, those are the guys from the unit. So there's like 10, 12 names that you've never talked, you don't, you don't, that you've never spoken to. Never, never spoken to. There are guys from that housing unit where we've been in this whole pretrial period who say that they have information related to us. And these are people that the government wants to now

bring in and testify. I'm like, what the heck? What? Like, it feels like this whole conspiracy theory, like everyone's against us. But the reality is that's exactly what it was. Yeah, I was going to say that's not a conspiracy. It was the truth. But that's what was happening. We go back to the unit. We never make it back to the unit that night. They have to move all of them onto other housing units, we end up coming back, the judge is like, I'm going to admit all of it, let it go. I'm like, I don't know who made the phone call overnight, but again, I was reminded like, we don't have a chance. There's no way we're going to get through this. So anyways, we go to trial. We blow through the whole thing. These guys get up there. They testify.

Jury comes back. I'm the first one. Well, the guys that get up and testify, like if you haven't talk to them how do they know now by the way not not not the guys from the unit are our co-defendants all of these other quote-unquote witnesses but not the guys from the unit but all these other people i was going to say i i did a story on a guy and his co-defendant who testified uh told him that the government brought them to the attorney to the u.s attorney's office to testify against the guy i still remember the name of the guy testified against the name was LaPoint to testify against him and so he goes into they put him in this room and they give him all the the 302s they give him everything about this guy the the FedExes that

he received like all of their every they give it to him and they ordered him what did he say he I think he ordered I forget the food that they ordered him whatever it's McDonald's it was for like two days, him and a couple other guys sat in a room for two days at the U.S. Attorney's Office to go over all of it. And then they put him on the stand. He's like, he, he's like, he had met, he had talked to the guy on the phone one time. And, and it turned into this whole thing, because he was looking at, he was looking at 25 or 30 years. He ended up getting 15. So, yeah. So I don't, you know, I wouldn't put it past the government to, you know, to go and bring them into a room, you know, to talk about the case and then give them all the stuff and leave them in there for four or five hours so they can formulate a story. Listen, in fact, when they went to the guy, he, I remember what they told him. The U.S. attorneys, he said, well, if you testify against LaPoint, you know, he said, you can get a sentence reduction. And he said, he goes, yeah, but I never met the guy. And he goes,

He said, well, he said, yeah, but if you did meet him, and if you did this, then you could get your sentence introduced. And he said, yeah, but I, I didn't meet him. He was, what do you want me to do? Lai? He goes, no, I want you to do 30 years. What do you want to do? And he's like, now, did you, did you ever meet him? And he was, and he was like, he was, well, then I guess I met him.

He said, okay, well, then we can work with this. We're going to bring you back. We're going to, I mean, this guy, when he told, like, this guy, the whole discussion and then he gets on the stand he testifies he does the whole thing um you know the guy's found was the guy found guilty the guy was found guilty i feel it's so funny to what he ended up getting i was like god all that to get this guy he gave him like whatever like like fucking 38 months or so it was nothing what they ended up giving him uh it was nothing because they had so little evidence i was so fucking flimsy but anyway i'm just saying though so i don't

put it past them at all i mean i'm sure there's a lot of u.s attorneys that are perfectly nice people and very ethical and you know but it's it's you know it's really it's the 99% that make the 1% look bad did I well no that's right go ahead I'll say this right because how my story turns like it's important to look at this aspect of it where started how I ended up with the time because I was convicted. Jury came back, convicted me on all counts, 27 counts. Nine of those were firearm, useful firearm during the commission of a crime. So although collectively, for that string of robberies, I got eight years.

I was sentenced to eight years. My guidelines were 97 to 110 months. That's not bad. They gave me eight years, which I could have lived with, right? Yeah. But then they gave me another 205 years consecutive for a total of 213 because of the firearms. That's kind of where the problem was. That's, you know, some would say excessive.

Some would say excessive. Little bit, little bit. But this was all by design. Remember, from day one, they told me. either cooperate or we're going to give you a life sentence like we will give you hundreds of years listen i'm going to i'm going to go out on a limb here and i'm going to say something that i know is not probably going to sit well with you but i'm starting to feel marlino may be connected to some of those drugs you know now that i don't remember it first but you know now

that i've thought about it it's funny you say that because as soon as i was convicted They're mandatory minimums. Like, I know that I'm going to get at least 205 years. We don't even need to go to sentencing yet, right? We know I've got 205 years. So they take me back in and sentencing scheduled for like two months. Why we needed a delay, like we could have done it right there, right? But there's a delay in sentencing.

And when I go back, the counselor is there. And he's like, hey. you ready to talk i'm like what he's like whenever whenever you want to talk to them i can call over there for you the counselor he's like yeah he's like we can get him right on the phone yeah he's like he's been down all right he's been there a while he knows he knows a lot of guys at that point are i need to talk i need to make a call and that's exactly how it goes right so and we had a strange relationship with this guy because there were times where we like camped out in front of his office, wouldn't let him in until he let us make illegal calls. It got wild. But anyways, now we delay two sentencing. And what's often overlooked is my one co-defendant, three of us went to trial all with the same people testifying. But like I'm charged in all nine. My other co-defendants charged in seven. The other is charged in three. I was there for all of them, right?

Everything that I was charged with. So they were mostly stacked against me. But the two of us get convicted on all counts. The other one who had nine counts against them gets acquitted of six of those nine counts, which it's like, huh? How did that happen? Same witnesses, same testimony on the crimes that we got convicted of. he somehow gets acquitted, which comes out later through jury polling and whatever.

They're like, well, he just looked so young and innocent. And we didn't really feel like there was that much evidence in the case. We didn't believe anybody. And so we decided to acquit him. If we would have known how much time they were going to get, we would have acquitted all of them. Well, they do that on purpose, don't they? wow yep that's almost always what they say and when they in it when they're like if i'd known he was looking at 30 years i would have never got we thought maybe he'd get a year or we thought

he'd get probation we didn't know he's going to get 20 years yep and that's why they do that it's a serious flaw in this system like they should be informed they should you know uh it's a big part of weighing out, you know, what the results are going to be. It's not just a matter of guilt. So anyways, we wind up going back in there, get sentenced. And now keep in mind, I'm already mentally prepared. I know how much time I'm getting. So we come back in the holding tank afterwards. And my two co-defendants are like, their heads are spinning. Nobody wants to say anything. and I just start laughing. And they look at me like, oh, man, he's lost it.

He's lost it. It's already gone. And they're like, dude, what the hell is wrong with you? I was like, listen. I was like, what came to my mind was when I was in the state doing that first, you know, three and a half years. One of those guys that I knew growing up in the neighborhood with, he got caught. driving around with his ex-girlfriend and her new boyfriend in the trunk of his car. They've been dead for a few days.

And yeah. So there was overwhelming evidence against this guy. They had given him double life sentence. He was, you know, on the lifer wing, down the law library. And every afternoon, that slider would pop and he would come out from the law library. he'd be the only one coming out by himself and people would see him and they'd be like oh damn here comes kevin again this miserable mother like nobody wanted to be around him and i used to tell the guys all the time like man you don't know what that dude's going through he's got a double life sentence he

ain't never getting out of here right you might be pretty miserable too i could say i would like to be different but you don't know you're not in his shoes i said i was just thinking of my buddy Kevin. I said, you know what? I'm not going to be that guy. I was like, regardless, I'm not giving up. I'm going to stay positive. I was like, this is a crazy sentence. I believe somehow, some way, I'm going to get another chance. Yeah. I mean, you're going to take time. Yeah. I was going to say, so what was the sentence? What were we looking at? I got 213 years. Right. But you got the drug program, so get a couple months off there.

Plus 15%. Well, listen, I still get good time on that because my release date was 12, December 1st, 2185. I mean, there you go. There you go. That's something to be positive about. And I could have that down a little bit more. I love that scene in the movie, The Town. where he goes to visit his father in jail is all right, well, let me get going.

I got to die two more times before they're going to let me out of this place. He's got two life sentences. I just thought, wow. But you're right. Like the guys that were miserable, there were guys that'd be locked up for three years. Nobody, they were just miserable pricks. And it's like, I don't even want you to get out. You're such an asshole.

You're such a prick about it. And then there were guys that had 30 years that had great attitudes. Like, those are the guys that, you know, probably went, go on to do something in life, or at least they're enjoying their life. You're above ground. Believe it or not, prison, although there's a ton of scoundrels, there's a ton of good guys. You can make the best of any situation if you have the right attitude. So, that's definitely the attitude to have.

Sorry, but you were saying. go ahead i was very fortunate that you know i'm just i'm wired a little bit different and because of those early childhood experiences where listen i never stayed down i never gave up part of that was sports too you know i was i was on a bunch of winning teams where like you know we're down 12 with you know a minute and a half left in the game come back to win it like i was part of those i had those experiences. And it's just, you know, something that was deeply embedded in me to not give up that hope. So when I end up getting designated, I head off, go to the USP. I get sentenced to you or designated to USP Allen Wood. And I end up there and I literally, I walk in

with my bed roll. I get to the unit. I don't even make it to myself. One of those guys, from the town because there was a bunch of townies there you know bank robbery capital of the world right

and got to know all of them very well a lot of funny stories there but this is the best I show up and he's like

hey Adam right come on up and I look and the officer looks at me and she's like okay

I'm like all right so I walk up the stairs I go up he's like hey close the door smoking

a joint, he's bagging up wine, right? He's like, you smoke. I was like, sure. Mind you, I have not made it to my cell. I don't even know where my bunk is yet. I'm smoking a joint. I'm drinking some moonshine off the table. And he's telling me, you need a knife? Like, we got knives here, here and here. He's like, this is like, this is the rundown. Give me the whole rundown. I'm like, okay. I was like, so this is how it's going to be. He's like, I know you got 213 years. I know a little bit of your background. I know you're a good stand-up guy.

He's like, you're going to be all right here. I'm like, all right, good deal. He's like, you got a pretty good sell of your cell. He's so-and-so. He's right down the range. I'm like, all right. Can I get another drink? He's like, yeah, help yourself.

Take another drink. He's like, you got money coming. You're going to have money on your books. I was like, yeah, I'm fine. Don't worry about it. And that's how we get started. That's day one. That set the tone for real.

really that first year and a half, two years, I was running wide open. You talk about prison rolls, basketball, we played floor hockey, and yes, it's exactly what you would imagine. Like, I've got a vicious, stiff arm, you know what I mean, hyper-aggressive. Like, I'm a young guy, early 20s, got a life sentence. I'm there to prove myself, you know, and people know. me from my background, my crimes, like, you know, prisons are small. It's a small network and word travels. And, you know, I guess the right things were said about me, which opened some doors

and honestly gave me the space that isn't often afforded, especially to young white guys who generally get forced to click up, you know, join prison gangs. I was able to kind of do my own thing, and I connected with some other guys that had a little bit of space, some other lifers, and got into a good workout car, and had a lot of anger and frustration that I needed to get out. I spent a lot of time in that gym and really found a passion for fitness. And one of those guys took me, and he's like, listen, man, you're running wide open like at some point you're going to have to pump the brakes and like figure it out because this is not sustainable dude in and out of the hole like what are you going to do

and uh he said i i see you spent a lot of time down here why don't you come in these classes with me like check them out i got some space if you're interested man i can kind of show you the ropes what class fitness classes like medicine ball plio ball speed and agility yoga ultimately we had spin like all of these classes everything around fitness and he had access remember VHS tapes right we had a VHS and then new DVDs at the time in this fitness library where I got access to anatomy physiology kinesiology you know chiropractic background stuff functional movement training group training certifications personal training certification personal training certification became a Schwinn certified indoor cycling instructor. I get access to all of these things, which gives me focus, helps me identify.

Listen, this is a passionate, something like, I wish somebody would have done this for me early on. This guy carved out space for me to not only work with him, but now I get a chance to share all of this with other guys in there. And over the course of some years, my identity from who I was shifts to the fitness guru. During that same period, 2005, for those who don't know how the federal system works,

you get one line of appeals, one shot, that's it, straight through. When you get to the end of that, when you get that final cert, certiorari denied from the Supreme Court, very unceremoniously, single page with bold, cert denies, that's it and you know what I did because I got it I didn't even get it legal mail I got it at regular mail at mail call at 4 p.m. I went down there I was like now this can't be it it's not thick enough like I go up to my cell I open this thing up I look at it I'm like you gotta be kidding me and I snapped I snapped out I kicked my locker in I threw some stuff around the cell you know wigged out for a little bit

And then I just had to sit down and, like, kind of be still and, and, like, breathe, man. I'm like, okay, now what? Are you going to give up? Nah, it ain't happening. So the appeals are done. There's no chance of parole. There's no hope for, like, any other relief. The only way that I can ever get out of prison from this point forward is one, Congress has to change the law.

that I'm here under, and they have to make it retroactive. Two, the president of the United States has to put his signature on a piece of paper saying that he's going to let me out of prison, a guy who is a repeat, file an offender, who's serving 213 years. That's not happening. Either one of those things, keep in mind, this is the 2000s, like early 2000, right? Nobody was talking about criminal justice reform. There was no Kim Kardashian, you know, talking about like,

We need to let people out of prison. None of that existed. It was, man, tough on crime, lock them up, violent offenders, throw away the key. And my appeals are final. It's like, okay, now what? So at that point, I had my whole, you know, my come to Jesus moment figured out, like, why are you here? What are you going to do with your life?

And I said, you know, I found my passion. I feel like maybe I got a sense of purpose sharing this with others. I'm going to keep focusing on me. I'm going to do what I need to do to make myself, you know, a little bit better, better version of myself because I had already been doing that, investing in myself physically, mentally, started really expanding spiritually. And for the first time in my life, I was at peace. I found a sense of peace in prison in a maximum.

security, United States penitentiary, I found peace. As crazy as that sounds. And while I'm, you know, doing my peace thing, I'm teaching yoga to some of our country's most notorious gangsters. And there are times where it's a bit surreal, right? We're in there like, you know, downward dog, upward dog. And I'm running them through like a yoga, a series of poses. And I look around and I'm like, man, if we could give video some of this shit right now, people wouldn't believe it.

Like, TMZ would love this. So my identity becomes this fitness guru. And I really like got all into my health and wellness from 2005. I stopped all the drugs, drinking, smoking, cut it all out. started getting healthy, physically, mentally, spiritually, everything and really just took on a whole new trajectory. Unfortunately, during that time, the prison population exploded over 225,000. You know, they were building USPs.

It was getting more flooded, more violent. It got crazy in there. I was able to avoid a bunch of like major catastrophes, full-scale riots, like, by the grace of God, I somehow managed to navigate those situations, get myself through them. And in 2009, this big bodybuilder comes in one day and walks into the unit, they immediately guys pull them up. They're like, man, go see Adam. Guy comes up to the cell. He's giving me the whole rundown. Yeah, runner up, Mr. New Jersey, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, okay, you know, whatever. We'll talk more, man. He's a guy who's from New Jersey. He's a guy who's from New Jersey.

as he's into fitness. I'm like, whatever. Within that first week, he's already pushing. He's like, hey, man, my girl, she's got a friend. They're going to be coming up. Like, why don't you talk to her? And I'm like, I'm cool. Because I have a life sentence and I'm pretty much, pretty sure I'm going to die in here. So I was believing at this point. I was like, someday I'm going to get a shot but I was like it ain't happening anytime soon and I was like honestly I don't want a relationship like I'm cool I'm at peace like believe I'm happy I don't need any other headaches like that's how I'm looking at it because all of my prior relationships were all toxic they were all just like it was all negative and reluctantly I'm like

Like, okay, listen, emails, like, I'll connect with her, we'll talk. And man, very quickly, we start shooting these emails back and forth. And then they had just put the emails in. We're going back and forth. And I'm like, wow, I know this woman better in just a matter of a few weeks exchanging these emails every day than probably every single one of my past relationships. Like, there was no depth, right? Yeah. Your past relationships were based on what, drugs and, you know, drugs and sex or, you know, but drugs, sex, purely physical, you know what I mean, aesthetics. Like it was, oh, wow, she's hot. And then, oh, wow, she's got a little personality too. That's a bonus. Like, that's really, that was the depth of my relationship. So that was the life that I was living. Now I'm on the fitness thing. And I'd already come to the realization because I had cut ties from all of my.

past. I looked at my ex and I was like, if I already get out today, like, where would we be? Because she's not in a good space mentally. She's, she's a mess. I was like, I need something different. And I wrote this exhaustive list, pages of the attributes that I would want in an ideal partner. Right. I put that off to the side. Here we are exchanging these emails. And I pull it out and I look at it and I'm like oh this is crazy I was like she's checking all of these boxes I was like how is this possible I was like this is bad this is so bad the guy comes to me he's like hey they want to come up for the weekend and I was like all right now mind you I have not seen a picture of her and that was the biggest thing I was like okay I don't like I'm not going to be shallow

but his description of her her lat spread you know because she was a former miss fitness new jersey and i'm like it's funny because only bodybuilder guys would talk about the chick's lat spread you know what i'm saying like i've never had a guy say yo bro she's got a sweet lat spread really yeah fucking her glats and the lats yes so this is his selling point, right? And I'm like, you're not helping the situation here. So they're coming up Saturday. Friday, mail call, 4 p.m. Right, right after, right after count, he's on the door. Bing, bang, bang, door swings open. I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, slow down, bro. Like, it's this is my quiet time. He's like, hey, I got the pictures. I got the pictures. You got to see this. Slaps it down on the

desk. And he's like, look. And he's flipping through. And I remember like, catching my breath. I'm like, damn, I'm like really invested in this. I was like, I said it wasn't going to be. It's not about appearances. I was like, I'm totally digging this chick. I'm like, I'm going to go out here. We're going to have a great time and we'll see where it goes.

Just breathe. I exhaled. Man, damn, I don't have the picture right here. I exhaled, and he shows me the picture. And it's her right after she won, the Miss Fitness, New Jersey. she's holding up the American flag behind her extended and she's ripped she's ripped but she's absolutely gorgeous right dropped that gorgeous I'm like oh my god you got to be kidding me and then I look at the next one like her like normal clothes and I'm like oh wow she's beautiful so I go out

there that next morning and I see her I spend the whole day with her they decide they're going to stay overnight at the local motel you know right down the street in the middle of nowhere they come back the next day and every weekend after that she kept coming back and we had some very candid conversations about the reality of my situation Congress got to change the law

or the president's got to sign a commutation like I'm not going anywhere anytime soon right oh my God and she says what are the chances you're going to get out well only one of two things

have to happen so small things small things and she says I get it. She says, I'm a big girl. I know what I'm getting into. She's like, let's see where this goes.

And definitely insane. So we go that entire year. Fast forward. Unbeknownst to me, I could put in for a transfer to a medium, get transferred to a medium. FCI McKean, best thing that ever could have happened. I needed to get out of the USP because I was. in a different mindset. I had built up so many social barriers that I didn't even realize. So I get to the medium and, man, I go out on a visit. Maybe the second week that I'm there,

my mom comes up with my aunt and my uncle. Now, I'm in a visiting room where she and I have sat across from each other. It's a very controlled setting. You don't get up. You don't walk around, nothing. Now, here we are. There's people all over the place. And I'm like, well, What is going on? My aunt and uncle left that day and said, listen, I don't know what happened to him, but he's not right and we're not coming back. We wish him the best, but good luck. I was, and admittedly, I was vibrating at a different frequency, right? I had been living in that environment that was high tension, electric for so long.

I wasn't able to just turn it off. It took me some time to decompress. Having my wife there, being able to sit and hold her hand, that was the most intimate contact I had ever had. Because we'd sat across from each other for a year with a hugging a kiss at the beginning, a hugging a kiss at the end, that's it. Get away. And it was like even that was like felt, you know, like it was a violent. like there was just they're always looming over top of you so now here we are we get to sit and hold hands and have these conversations talk about hey what would our our future look like what is our future going to be like and over the course of the next decade i'm going to summarize all of this over the course of the next decade i had administrators who came into the prison that created physical space for us to focus on education university of pittsburgh came in and

head of the criminal justice department. His name is Dr. Tony Gasky became a personal mentor. Became a personal mentor, allowed me to interact with his students from the outside that he brought in. And I realized, wow, I'm actually smart. Because when I was told at 10 years old that I would end up in prison one day, I associated that with, you're not smart, you're stupid. You're going to end up in prison.

You don't belong here. you're not good enough. All of those negative connotations, right? And I'd carried those with me my entire life, and they had been limiting beliefs. All of that was finally stripped away. And being with these college students, with this professor, I realized that I was smart.

I engaged with them on an academic level. It built up my confidence, caused me to stretch myself. I had a prison administrator who brought in a life coach training program, connected us with an outside organization called the Institute for Life Coach training, which over the course of a few years, I not only got my certification, but I then led a community of incarcerated life coaches who transformed the culture, not only in the prison, but these guys then went on to other prisons and back to their communities, and everyone who was a part of that program is doing amazing things all across this country to this day.

That happened over 10 years. I got to interact with academics from all across the country. When I was told by the Bureau of Prisons, you can't do that? You can't do a video conference with this academic group because we can't control it. I said, okay, I said, I'm going to bring them all in. And I literally started sending invitations, coordinated events that gain national attention where there was so much momentum by the time word got back to DC to the legal office in DC that we were going to have this national reentry event they're like you're going to do what

who authorized this there was so much publicity around it they couldn't back off yeah they were afraid to stop it so they let it go and it just it exploded man and it blew up and we got all of this attention so while I was focused on myself and culta this community on the inside. It brought all this outside attention. I started getting the support and the connections that I needed to get back into court to get people in positions of authority who are interested in my situation. But ultimately, remember, we've got to get Congress to change the law of the president. 2016, President Obama's doing clemency lottery, right? You get clemency, you get clemency. Like nobody knows who's going to get

or why. I'm a repeat violent offender. My wife and my mother are literally candlelight vigil out front of the White House. Were you married at that point? Did you marry? Nope. Oh, still not married.

But she's sticking by you for 10 years. Insane. Absolutely insane. She becomes my chief advocate. Like coordinating with fam, families against mandatory minimums. can do clemency project none of them want to touch me right like i am not i'm not your poster case i'm a repeat violent offender i am all of the things you want to like avoid pass off

so they kind of shuffle me to the back my clemency petition makes it all the way through the u.s. partner attorney's office gets to the white house it died on the vice president's desk that's right Joe Biden because he had aspirations of running for president said we're going to pass on this one let this one die right and to be honest like I'm a political liability like if you have political aspirations like why would you let a guy like me out based on my track record right yeah all he needs is for you to walk out and go rob a bank shoot somebody do something stupid and that's it so here's the interesting part you bring a back bank robbery.

So shortly after my wife comes into my life, we're emailing, you know, at the early stages of our relationship, she goes, hey, I saw this article, New York Times writing about this guy who got out of federal prison and became an attorney, or he's working on becoming an attorney. I said, oh, yeah, I need to talk to him. She goes, here's his email. Why don't you send him something? I do. We connect.

This is 2009, 2010, build a relationship over the years. He not only goes back to law school, becomes an attorney coming out of federal prison. He was a bank robber, served 12 years. Yeah, I saw that he was on 2020, right? Or 60 minutes. He was on 60 minutes twice. He's written a book. He ultimately gets recruited by Georgetown, becomes a Georgetown law professor.

President Trump's daughter, Tiffany, is in his class. He's personally mentoring her. He's going to the White House in 2018. as they are drafting landmark criminal justice legislation, the First Step Act. Bipartisan legislation passed overwhelming. You know what it did? It changed the statute. Those guns that I have no longer run consecutive to one another, the way that they did it to me.

The problem is it was not made retroactive. So for myself and the 3,500 individuals who have, these crazy sentences. Sorry. Sorry, you guys are stuck. We'll never do this again. We'll never sentence someone like this, but you guys, too bad. So the second part of that 2018 legislation is called Compassionate Release, where previously the director of the Bureau of Prisons, who's a political appointee, had to sign off on you being released from custody. And to go on to the court. Now, even when people were on their deathbed,

when the doctor said, listen, he's got about 48 hours. They don't want to sign it. They're not going to sign it. They're like, nope, not doing it. So this criminal justice reform, they changed it and took the director out. All you had to do was petition BP8 to your warden. After the warden denied it, he had two weeks to deny it, you could go straight to the court.

So it was a major procedural change that suddenly gave individuals like myself access back to the courts where it had never existed before. Because they had changed the statute, the gun laws, and if I were to be resentenced today, the court can now consider it through compassionate release. Even though they can't make it retroactive, it's not all. automatic, at least the court can consider it. It gave us a vehicle. The person who was instrumental in creating that vehicle was my attorney, my dear friend,

the reason I am here, Ron Hopwood, that George Dunl Law professor, he had to convince the legal community, the media, and basically build a record through the courts that showed other individuals lower level, obviously not serious offenses like mine, getting relief via this vehicle. Now, this is 2018, 2019, 2020, I'm like, yo, bro, let's go, man. Like, when are we going to do mine? Like, you're racking up wins. I, listen, I appreciate you. I trust your judgment. But listen, biological clocks are ticking here. We want to start a family. Like, if I'm ever going to get a shot, we got to go. Let's do this. And he finally tells me, now's the time. We're going to do this. I'm like,

hallelujah, man. So this is COVID. Everything's locked down. But I've compiled prior to this, this extensive record of programs of events, building this community. I have support. I have letters from wardens. You know, that never happens. Wartons don't write letters. I have, because, of those wardens writing letters. They allowed other staff members to write letters. So I have all these things that very, very rarely is anyone ever able to get. And honestly, it's because I made a lot of these people look good by doing the things that we were doing on the inside. All of the things that everyone talks about are important for helping individuals prepare for their release. We don't actually do them, right? The system's just not set up to do it.

For this brief period in time, this block of years, everything worked the way that it was supposed to. The outcomes were absolutely phenomenal. Ultimately, that created a record for me to then bring to the court and say, this is why you need to take another look. So this finally, we submit the motion. And I remember, I come down to the emails. I sit down at the emails.

and all it says from it's from Sean he says call me we need to talk and it's funny you know how long was that fucking wait you know you get one word on the phone or you get one line in an email you learn to read those things we just become highly attuned and I'm like this isn't good so I got to sleep on it I can't even get to him until the next day that's a dick move bro it was tough right it was tough so i sleep on it i'm like okay i've already got it in my mind i know what this is i already know i hope it's not this i hope he doesn't ask me what i think he's going to ask me but i got a feeling now at this time i've been in over 20 years what do you mean you got to ask you i thought it had gone in front

of the court already no it had it had been submitted to the court court. Okay. So I get on the phone with them. He says, okay, so, you know, the motion went in. He goes, and I got a call from Bob Zousmer. Bob Zalzmer is the acting U.S. attorney. Interesting side note. He used to be the U.S. partner attorney. When my petition, clemency petition, my parent, my mom and my wife were in front of the White House, he was the guy that passed my petition through to the White House. But now he's back. in Philly. He has my case that he's over top of. And he has called my attorney to tell him the only way that we will even consider reducing his sentence is if he agrees to cooperate.

There's nothing to, like, you don't know anything at this point. Nothing you can say is any good to them. And that's not what it was about. Right. It's about wins and losses. They don't want to concede anything. Right. And for me, personally, I felt like they were not only trying to get me to tap out, but they were taking my credibility, right? For me to go that route, I had invested so much. The credibility that I have to this day because of the way that I chose to do my time,

the way that I went through the courts, when I tell you this, I mean this sincerely. I can walk into any prison anywhere in this country and within about five minutes establish my credibility and have everyone's full attention. And people will listen to me because of my background. And there's a lot of things that go along with this that aren't necessarily right.

It's just the reality of the situation. And part of my plan was that when I got out, I was going to use all my knowledge and experiences to be able to help connect other individuals, break them out of that mindset and get them on a different path, the path that I was on that I am on, right? But the only way to do that is to maintain my hard on credibility, right? And they were trying to take that.

And I said, it's not even an option, bud. Like, he said, and I was mad at the time, right? He said, I had to bring it to you. It's my responsibility. I said, I know. He said, I knew what your response was going to be. He said, but I had to bring it to you. I was like, listen, we fight on, man, whatever.

Like, let's see what the judge says. Now I'm going to go back. I'm going to tell my wife, who, fortunately, fully understands, we're very much aligned in this. No hesitation there. My parents, on the other hand, not so much, right? My parents, my father, who is pretty bitter at the government. Remember what they told him early on?

Right. Which he now knows is it wasn't true. which he knows is all false and my father's memory of all this now like he's blocked a lot of these things out it's stuff like we don't even talk about anymore there's no sense in talking about it at this point but very bitter against the government and the things that they said and the you know misrepresentation so I got to tell them like here's what happened this is where we're at and they're like what like are you not ready to come home I was like believe me I am but we're going to do this the right way at this point I said there's there's no

value in that they're just trying to you know take my credibility so funny turn of events judge responds and goes listen I feel that I have the legal grounds to do this I'm going to move this thing forward I'm going to have a hearing on this further now Sean my attorney goes back and talks to Baba, U.S. Attorney again, says, all right, you know, like, here we go. Like, what are we going to do, madam? You passed his petition on. So you see what he's accomplished. Like, why are you going to fight this thing? He says, listen, here's what I'm going to do. He goes, if the judge rules that he has legal authority to do this, we don't agree with that. We don't agree. However, we will not appeal whatever he will. Whatever, he will.

his final decision is and whatever time he chooses to give him. He goes, we're going to step back. We're not going to be fully supportive, but we will not oppose anything. I was like, that is the best possible outcome from this that I could hope for. Right. And ultimately, a judge comes back and goes, I have legal authority to do this. This is why I'm doing it. Put it all on the record, published his decision and said we're going to come back in a few weeks and I'm going to give you or we're going to do a sentencing and we'll talk about what he should receive. So we have vacated a 213 year sentence. Woo! Throw it out the door. I should be celebrating, right? Who knows? Yeah, who knows what he can give you those? He still has the authority to give you

a chunk of time, right? He could give me 212 years, right? Like whatever is below what he just threw out. So just can't give me more time. So anyways, we go back in, well, we don't. And this is an important side note. This is COVID. There's no transferring back and forth. Everything's shut down. It's all happening remotely. I sign away and allow Sean, my attorney, to be my personal advocate, legal advocate, to argue on my behalf. He is the only person on this planet that I trust we are remember this is a decade that we have been working on this totally aligned this one part of the law like it's this much he knows my personal story who better than the former federal bank robber now georgetown law professor to talk about man this is my friend this guy is

deserving of a second chance he can have the same things like you're never going to get a better situation than that. So he goes in and the very first thing that the judge opens with is, oh, so why shouldn't I give him 30 years? And he's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute and goes right in. And ultimately at the end of that hearing, he goes, okay, I'm going to grant time served, immediate release. And it's like, what? It happened. Right? How much time had you done? 20 years, five months, 17 days. Fuck. That's right.

But beats the alternative. Beets the alternative and I'm going to show to this that honestly, did I need that entire time? No. Like when we petition for clemency, I would have been good to hit the ground running at that point. those additional four years were not without value. I did a lot of things personally, some accomplishments, developed some additional skill sets, things that serve me very, very well now,

that I would not have had then. So my time, all of it, the majority of it, not early on, the majority of it was put to very good use. I was fortunate I was able to invest in myself. I had the resources, the education, more importantly, the support. Many of those guys that I built that community with on the inside are my closest friends today. Right.

Very close contact with them. And it's important to note my wife while she was on the outside, I'm building this community inside. She built her support network on the outside because old school Italian family, clearly they were not too excited to see their daughter no no with a guy that's not true any father would be thrilled to have his daughter going to see a a fucking guy with a life sentence every weekend sounds like a successful relationship to me yeah so i was i was hoping for my baby and we used to have that conversation all the time i tell her listen when we have children.

If we have a daughter and she ever wants to go visit a guy in prison, ain't happening. I don't care how old she is. Like, you're not going. You're 30 years old. That's nice. No, you can't go, period. But we were always confident, too, that once I was out and had a chance to connect with

them, like, that we'd be able to, you know, build relationships. I was confident in that part. However, from the inside, she needed to be able to build a support network. She created strong prison wives and families, which grew to over 100,000 strong across social media. It's a platform she still leads that community. She's been a little distant. She has an amazing team, her leadership team that helps keep that community running for all of those who have an incarcerated loved one. They're often overlooked.

If you're on the inside doing time and you have a loved one on the outside, there's a lot of stigma. there's man all the challenges that they face they need a whole lot of additional support because there's generally nobody there to pick them up so she was able to build that community that she needed for herself and she found purpose just as I did on the inside but she found it on the outside

providing that network to others and she became a certified life coach and I credit us both being coaches and those constant emails and the enhanced communication skills that allowed us over the course of 11 years to not just maintain a relationship, but to really build a future together. So when I walked out the door, she picked me up, car packed, like, woo-hoo, we're going to Vegas, pick me up from the door of prison, man, and it was like everything that we had

envisioned. There were some hiccups. I had to spend two weeks at a judge's house. Best Airbnb ever. This is COVID. I had to quarantine. They said you can either do it in the hole or you find somebody in PA. My mom being a mother, reached out, picked up the phone. She said it. You said if he ever need anything to just call. He said, he can come here. She said, well, wait a minute, Let me go ask my wife. Now, this is a guy. What you is this? Yeah.

Check this out. I was leading that community on the inside, right? We're doing these amazing things. One of the staff members calls the Buffalo office, U.S. Attorney's Office and asks this guy to come out. He thinks he's coming to talk to staff. This guy brings him inside the prison into a computer lab where myself and the other leaders of this community are there. And he's like, listen, I didn't know I was coming. coming inside of prison today. I've never been inside of one. I make no apologies for who I am,

what I do. But I'll say this, like, I'm connected to the outcomes. Like, if there's anything I can do to help you guys while you're here and to support what you're doing, because I think it's amazing, I will do that. And I'll keep coming back. True to his word, for years, this guy kept coming back. And we had an ongoing conversation. He left the U.S. Attorney's Office to become a state court judge. So my mom, when I needed a place to land for 14 days in Pennsylvania before we came to Vegas, she called him and without hesitation, he said, have him come here. Who does that, right? Who opens up their home to a repeat violent offender, spend over 20 years in prison?

Yeah, come stay with me and my family. Amazing. Marshall Gisdini and his wife, Carrie, they are remarkable people. I am deeply indebted to them, always grateful. And they, along with a number of other people, just so, so fortunate to have that support. They're largely all of those people, my wife first and foremost, but all of these other people who stepped up to give me that support while I was on the inside, like allowed me to become the person that I am today.

I wouldn't be who I am without that. So fast forward ahead, that social purpose corrections, what you see behind me. I came out here to work for another national nonprofit, didn't work out. The job wasn't what they said. It didn't get all the things that were promised to me. But my wife and I were like, hey, we got a fresh start. We're going to make the most of it. It was during COVID.

We hit the ground running. There have been some challenges. I didn't have ID. I didn't have a driver's license, no birth certificate, no social security card. They actually cut them up before I left the prison. Imagine that. I mean, let's face it, they didn't think you were going to need them again. They did not.

So I had to get all those things again. Fortunately, my wife was able to drive me around, get all those things, take me to drug testing, you know, a couple times a week on the other side of town. All the madness that comes along with, you know, going through that transition, coming back home and especially after 20 years, I am so, so fortunate that I not only had her, but that I had spent so much time helping others prepare for that situation because I remembered vividly what it was to walk out of prison at 21 years old, to not be prepared, to have not dealt with all of that internal angst and all of that compressed emotion and all the self-sabotage that took place. So I made sure that I was ready. And when I walked out the

door, I can say honestly, it hasn't been, none of it has been as difficult as it was that first time. There are no residual effects for me, which is odd. Most people, 20 plus years, they're bringing some baggage with them. So I've been good, but also I had a different experience. So shortly after I got out here, I got introduced to a guy who at the time was the head of security for Core Civic, the largest private prisons company in the country, in the world. Head of security, 65 prisons. He was at that time also the warden of their largest complex. And he says, hey, I got this crazy idea. I want to start a nonprofit prison model. that focuses on creating a better environment for both staff and residents based on like the Norway

model, dynamic security principles, kind of gave me the loose framework. And I'm like, wow, you're the security expert I've been looking for because every time I tried to do something on the inside, it was like, no, no, no, no, we can't do it. Safety and security. Safety and security. Like, you're going to jeopardize everything. And I'm like, really? That was always their fallback. Here's the guy telling me, oh, we can do it. I'm like, We need to continue this conversation, which we did over the course of a few years while I pursued some other projects. I had a housing, transitional housing development, fund that I started, second chance employment, you know, helping others coming out of prison, getting them jobs, did all of these things. Great experiences, but ultimately about seven, eight months ago, as we were gaining some momentum, the funding was there for the organization.

He had long since left Core Civic. This was his full-time focus. He asked me to join him on this mission to become the director of innovation and social impact to bring all my knowledge and experience from building that community on the inside to have that same experience I did to help transfer this to other institutions, other environments, asked me to join the team. I did. And it's been an amazing experience.

ever since. I get to meet with correctional leaders, secretaries, directors of corrections all across the country, literally seat at the table with them, which is always a fun experience when I get to pull the pin and drop that. By the way, I'm a formerly incarcerated person, spent over 20 years in the Federal Bureau of Prisons in the middle of like, wait, what? You know, I'm in a Brooks Brothers suit. Right. I looked apart. As you can see, I avoided putting any, you know, markings, any tattoos on my face or my neck while I was in prison all that time, which, you know, that's an anomaly. Yeah.

It was always in anticipation of the second chance I was going to receive and to be able to use everything that I learned out here to advocate for others. I used to walk around. One of the things that I taught in the classes, the guys that I trained was to have. have a God-size goal, this big vision for your future, something that you couldn't possibly do on your own. You were going to need some help. And then you had an inquiry on the other side. So on the one side it had to speak to the United States Congress about the need for radical criminal justice reform. And guys used to tell me, they're like, really? Like, shouldn't you be worried about getting out of prison? They're right. That was on the list, too, but this was one of my God-size goals. I have since

met spoken to so many members of Congress. I've spoken to the U.S. Sentencing Commission. I've testified there. I've, you know, I work for a national nonprofit connected to all the other social justice organizations and now have an opportunity to advocate for all of those others who did not receive the second chance that I received. And that's the fulfillment of that that goal that I carried around in my pocket, in prison, that everybody thought was so crazy. But I kept that unwavering belief in myself and in my ability to make sure that it came to fruition. I mean, honestly, the life that I'm now living, my wife, myself, we have a two-year-old son, Christian, who is absolutely amazing.

That's the fulfillment of a promise that I made to her for this better life. You know, promise that from a prison visiting room, right? Like, we make a lot of promises, right? Like, hey, it's going to be a much better life on the other side. We're going to have this. We're going to have that. You know, I've been very fortunate to be able to follow through on those promises. Keep my commitment.

And I'm really excited about everything that's ahead of us. My wife and I have this podcast called Gritability. It's her name. It's the power of perseverance, overcoming seemingly insurmodible odds to attain the life of your dream. that's us holding on to that unwavering belief 11 years she was with me right so i've got i'm gonna say 50 60 more good years what i'm hoping for right and they all go to her to my son you know and to making sure that others get the opportunities that i've been afforded that's a good story it's a pretty good you know yeah yeah god i'm glad i didn't i was just thinking man i i i wanted to

ask more questions at the beginning but you know we'd have been here another hour you know i mean i was happy when you said that that we weren't going to try and time cap it because yeah yeah i wanted to know what i was thinking was i didn't realize how um how amazing the prison part of it was Because, you know, the problem is a lot of these guys, they want to talk about prison. And then you get into prison and it's like, okay, I don't want to hear about fights and making hoot. And, you know, I don't want to hear about all that. You know what I'm saying? But you have a different, much different version of your prison experience than the typical prison story.

Like, that's not a prison story, you know? I mean, it is, but it's certainly not the norm. Yeah, that's a great story. I don't think I could have told that story without crying at least four or five times. Just listening to it, I got teared up. Trust me, I cry all the time, so it's not a big deal. Anybody watching this would be like, oh, I've seen this dude, cry four or five fucking times. I can't cry with it.

Like when you said leaving the prison, listen, every time I think about leaving the prison, I start crying. Just thinking about it. Because I did too, bro, I cried the whole way. But not because I was angry, just because I was leaving like all my friends. I'd been there 13 years. You know what I'm saying? It was just like it wasn't that I was scared or angry. It was just that I was going to miss those guys.

So I told like I totally get the, you know, like when you said you were crying, I was thinking and you said, well, you know, I was angry or I was whatever, you know, whatever the reason was, I was thinking, bro, I totally remember balling my eyes out. I just don't think people realize it's hard. to relate or get people to understand, even family members, right? When you live in the same home, it's a different experience, right? Because you see each other every day. Right.

But you get to go about your separate lives and you spread about it and you come back to this place. In prison, there's much less separation, right? There's a lot more togetherness where when there are individuals that you're closely connected to that you live with that you spend all of this time and you're in a stressful environment which heightens that connection that experience um you get to know people excuse me on a much deeper level a lot of times than you even know like your family members right yeah well you know it's funny is like people there there people's concept of prison is your alone in a cell. It's quiet. You're by yourself. It's like, are you serious? It's you're always smashed in with other people. You're, you're never alone. It's loud. Like, it's everything that they don't think it. They think that this prison fights all the time. And it's, you know, but the truth is, listen, I, I, I laughed all the time in prison. You know what I'm saying? I joked with guys. I had fun. I have relationships with people to this day. I, matter of

I don't have, but maybe one or two friends out here that I wasn't locked up with. Almost all of my friends out here are guys I was locked up with. That's it. That was just the way, you know, you know what I mean? It's amazing how many guys I got out and was sending money to. I was in the halfway house sending money to people. You know, and people are like, you're locked up. I'm like, it's 50 bucks.

It'll mean the world to this dude. Like, trust me, 50 bucks for. him you know it was it was interesting it's funny because i also had guys in prison while i was in the halfway house trying to put things together that were sending money to me like guys would walk across this walk across the compound and say hey does house cox doing ah he's doing this he's doing that well if he needs anything let me know because there's guys in there that have money there's guys in there that have a hundred thousand dollars sitting in their account you know but they're going to be there for 15 more years and you know and they've they've got money and uh and i remember one time my

buddy pete was like why haven't you started your website like bro i i need a fucking laptop i need this i need that i don't have it i'm working on this i'm working at this place i mean i just don't have the money to go out and spend it he's like well how much is it i said i get a used one for $350 uh i need this i need this he goes well i'll have somebody send you the money he said from now on when these guys say hey well does you need anything he's i'm going to say yeah he does listen a week later i got a check for seven hundred dollars a week after that somebody called his mom and had her his mom send me his old laptop i had already bought a laptop by the i mean it was like non-stop i was like all right right right right right i'll start working on the website like

these guys are yelling at me you said you were going to do this you said you were going to do that i am going to do it i'm working at a gym what am i supposed to do you know what i'm saying with the whole thing but i started doing all that so yeah it's um it's it's not what you it's not always what people think it is. It really is exactly what you make of it because it's just not, it's just not designed to really help you. You have to go so far and above and beyond to make it work for you. And to be honest, if everybody was trying to make it work for them, then you probably wouldn't be able to do it at all. Like, you know what I'm saying? It's so, it's such a problem. Most of those guys are just, I used to say that all the time. Most of those guys are just planning on their, they're just, they're, they're

in prison working on their next indictment you know they just you know they and they don't know any other way it's like you i used to you know think you think oh well you know you're just you know you're just a fuck up but no you were just raised in the projects and you know your mom's raising five kids your dad's not around like there's there's so much chaos like everybody you know that has any money is selling drugs like you don't you don't have any here you don't know yeah so but But listen, I appreciate you doing this. Hey, you guys, I really appreciate you watching. Do me a favor.

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