Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - Steroids Expert Exposes Liver Kings Mistakes | Ryan Root

Episode Date: July 28, 2023

Steroids Expert Exposes Liver Kings Mistakes | Ryan Root

And it's the same thing with the liver king. So part of the stigma is like, like a lot of people, especially those people who don't take it, they'll say, oh, oh, that guy's just on steroids and that's it. Like that's the answer, right? But to look like the liver king did, it takes a ton of work. If your vision is poor, then we give you glasses or we give you contacts or people get LASICs, right, to fix their genetics so that they have the quote unquote perfect vision, which is 2020. It's been established, right? And that's what they should do with testosterone. right? They should come up and say, here's an optimal level where everybody's optimal at.

Let's try to get everybody there because that's where everybody feels the best. They act their best. They're the most healthy, right? Hey, this is Matt Cox, and I'm here with Ryan Root. Ryan owns a company called Hormones for Me. We're going to put the link in the description. We're going to be talking about the liver king and basically the just kind of, the whole saga um and uh ryan is a biochemist biochemist did i say it right yeah yeah cool biochemist and so yeah check it out so i contacted you about the liver king and the whole

you know that whole you know uh his scheme uh i guess and then the him coming out and you know owning up to lying about taking steroids and the whole you know ancestral thing and I did a I did a I did a I did a I did a video with with with with Dan wise about it you know we talked about it and and and then but the more I thought about it the more I was I we know thought you were probably the better person to do that video with because you know although like Dan understands you know, somewhat about, you know, hormone replacement and, you know, we had a different take on it. And I thought you would have an interesting tape because I think when Dan and I talked about it, like one of my things was he could have, you know, he could, first of all, he says, you know,

the liver king says, I don't even know the guy's real name, but he says that he, you know, owns a supplement, has owned a supplement line. And it was doing super well regardless. And he then, this was in his apology. He then, he said he did not realize that when he started doing, you know, videos that he was going to blow up on social media like he did. And that he made a mistake and didn't, and he was embarrassed and didn't want to say that he was also taking, you know, anabolic steroids. So, but even though the later, when he's kind of. outed, you know, in the steroids, he very clearly talks about how he's hiring an entire team.

He expects to have 100,000 followers or a million followers or whatever it is, you know, on multiple social media platforms. And he's got a whole, it's a whole scheme that he's put together to really blow up. And he's got the money to do it. Then over the last year, he says he says he made like over $100 million in the last year. Um, by, pushing his uh ancestral you know way of life or what's it called again that he calls it the nine ancestral tenets nine ancestral tenants and then i was talking to dan and what bothered me about it is okay like he could have simply expanded on that and said look you know i've got my supplemental i'm doing all these things but i'm also taking you know anabolic steroids because the truth is

is, you know, is that at my age or, you know, at whatever age he is, you know, men certainly at a certain age, some men, I guess most men, you know, their testosterone and different steroids or different hormones, you know, they start to decrease dramatically. And you can either deal with it and say, hey, you know, my libido is going to drop. I'm going to not heal as quickly. I'm going to feel tired all the time. I'm going to get poor sleep. Like all the things that go along with it, my body.

is going to start um you know i don't say decaying but you know basically breaking down and not be as strong and not have the physique i want and i'm just going to have to oh well i'll just deal with it or you're going to say hey you know what i'm not going to put up with this and i'm going to fight back and that to me that could have been a part of his program even if you say hey well he wouldn't have been as huge okay so what so what if he was 30 or maybe maybe he only got 30% of those people dropped off. Like, so what? Yeah.

Who cares? He may have picked up just as many people by admitting that. Yeah. And he could have worked with someone like you or a company like yours to help those people. And he certainly would have made up for that income. You know, if he was concerned about maximizing his income, okay, great. Then be honest and help, you know, help kind of funnel those people in. into somebody into another company that just helps you along the way.

Yes. Yeah. So I think what you're talking about is a little bit of a unique take, right? And I totally agree with you. And that's the direction I want to go. You know, when do we discuss this? Because everybody else has already covered all the, you know, he shouldn't have lied. It was already bashed him to death.

Like 75, probably more, 80% of the people out there already knew he was taking something. It was pretty obvious. In fact, you know, it was funny as on the concrete podcast, Daniel asked me about the liver king. And I specifically, and I actually went over it back then. And I could have that type of physique and look like that without taking something. But everybody called that. So that wasn't unique, right? Rogan, Joe Rogan mentioned it on his podcast, you know.

And he's on it. on stuff. So he knows. I mean, you can't be that. But what I thought was interesting when we were talking was you were, you had a whole group of things that you were like, yeah, but wait a second. When your eyes go bad, you do this. When this goes, like you had a whole series of things that were like rebuttals to things that people do and don't think anything about it. So why should this be any different? That's exactly right. Like, you know, and we'll get into that. like he just took the wrong tact like a better tact would have been to get out ahead of this whole thing and do exactly what you said i think you articulated it well um you know so so there's a

little bit to unpack with with what you opened up with there which is always very good but let me unpack a little bit of it um first let's start with people's testosterone levels right and um you know the the common almost almost misconception i don't want to say it's a misconception but lack of understanding of the full truth is that as you age, your testosterone gets lower, right? And this is true. It's all true. Well, yeah. Well, so that's where it starts to get foggy and cloudy because so we're seeing now that there's people of all ages that have low testosterone.

And I know, like, you know, especially, you know, so we have a clinic now and we're starting to see these chronic issues with low, hormones at younger ages with people in their 20s. And it's become an evident now. And it's, so, so is this, you know, so now we, so originally back a decade or two decades ago, it was only considered, if once you reach 40, 45, that's when your hormones start lowering. And that's when the only time anybody should be considered for testosterone replacement therapy.

In fact, it was so bad, back, you know, back again, 10, 20 years ago that they wouldn't even test you for for they wouldn't test your hormones unless you were over 40 over 45 in some cases so you know when i was 20 years ago when when i was like concerned about my hormones they nobody would test me they wouldn't even give the test no way there's no way your hormones could be low if you're if you're under 45 there's no way we're not even going to test you for it so you know therefore there's an element of this it looks like this has been a problem for a long time but the medical community refused to, refuse to address it, right? But they wouldn't take the data.

They wouldn't take the empirical data to say, okay, listen, there is a trend of people who are younger that do have hormone issues, just like people can have all kinds of issues, like, you know, issues with their insulin, issues with vision, insulin with, and, you know, you can have issues with your hormones at any age, right? So we're seeing now that there's young people. And I am included in one of this in this. The reason I became so passionate about this industry is because, you know, when I was younger, I now know that I was low in hormones, even though nobody would test me.

But now knowing what I do, I was, you know, I know that the way I was feeling the symptoms I was having was low testosterone. And when I took testosterone, it's so. dramatically improved my quality of life. Like, I mean, I lived two different worlds. Like, completely two different lives. And the one after taking testosterone was incredibly better than the life before. So, and that's why I became passionate about it.

That's what drove this, you know, me to make my entire life about testosterone and its derivatives and some of the other hormones. Law enforcement often questions him, not because he's suspected of a crime, but because they find him fascinating. He is the most interesting man in the world. I don't typically commit crime, but when I do, it's bank fraud. Stay greedy, my friends. Support the channel.

Join Matthew Cox's Patreon. So the idea, so now a lot of people are trying to explain, okay, so what's going on now? We're noticing that this is actually a more pervasive issue than we have recognized it as in past. And some of it, so a lot of people are saying, well, okay, there's new environmental toxins, right? All these plastics and everything are getting into our food or water preservatives, all kinds of things are causing this. And that's, and that's possible. It sounds, it sounds scientifically valid, right? But usually when you have something that's this pervasive, right, it's not because of one thing. It's not when you have like almost like

an epidemic like this, right? Because this is. worldwide if you go around the world everybody's suffering from from you know from these issues well i had heard and i don't know about the statistic but i had heard but like in the last 50 or 100 years that the average males testosterone has dropped something like 30 or something it was yeah i don't know the exact uh the exact with a percentage but it was any marked drop is odd but the figure that was given was was so like it was like that's that's a substantial drop like it wasn't like oh by six percent no no it was it was massive and it was like and the person that said it started giving all these different giving different reasons like could be this it could be because of what's in

our you know we're pumping you know different stuff into food we're giving different um you know different fertilizers different you know hormones and the cows and they had all these different things that you know but they could like you said they couldn't say what exactly it was right but i just remember thinking like fuck like you like you can that there it's it's actually there's actually a measured drop right that it was it's like all ages yeah for all ages too not just not just people as you get old so like 20 years ago it was only if you're old that's the only way your testosterone drops right nobody else needs it and and now you're saying so people are trying to explain well why is everybody, you know, there's a, not everybody, but there's a, there's a substantial amount of

people who, who have these lower testosterone, who are suffering symptoms of hypogonadism, which is low testosterone, right? So, in an effort to explain that, you're right. So the environmental toxins is scientifically valid, but it's like, like I said, usually when something is this pervasive, when this, like, you know, when this almost like a, almost like an epidemic, right? It's, it's a coalescing of multiple factors, right? And, and it seems to me that it also has been, just like you said, right, in the last 50 years, there's been evidence of testosterone levels dropping. So this is, but, but so it's becoming evident that this actually has been an issue for decades now. But like I said, the, the medical community just

didn't focus on this. They haven't, they didn't take the empirical data to see that, that, okay, there are people in their 20s because 20 years ago, 15 years ago, they wouldn't even, like I said, they wouldn't even test you, uh, anybody under 40 their testosterone because it was impossible that that you had low testosterone, right? And now we're saying, well, that's not true. So it's also a function of this problem has existed for a while. It's just now starting to kind of come out, right? It's starting to be aware of.

And back 20 years ago, they weren't taking the data to prove that. Okay, these testosterone levels have been dropping for a while. So it's like a function of a few different things. You know, like I said, a coalescing of these factors. But yeah, so I guess, you know, the next logical part to go down is to start, is to identify where testosterone and its derivatives started on this path of demonization, right? So this is a big part of the problem. And, you know, and in my mind, well, I'll get to that later. So it's a big part of the problem that back in the 80s when bodybuilders started getting a hold of

these, you know, of steroids. And, you know, it started to just get a bad name. It started to get a bad name. The Olympic Committee banned them. Then solely, every professional sport started banning them, Major League Baseball, basketball, the NFL. And then in the 1990, right, it got lumped in with all the other drugs. During the war on drugs, it was just thrown in there. But at the time, you know, there was just such a massive push to illegalized drugs and eradicate drugs and in anything that seemed like a drug was just lumped into this category, right? So, so steroids got put into that. And then 1990, the steroid control act was passed making testosterone and its derivatives, a Schedule 3 narcotic or Schedule 3 drug, not a narcotic, a drug. and um so this further clouded uh you know testosterone and its derivatives into the shroud

of odium that you know that has been just building and building sorry let me interrupt you when you say a class three level drug what does that mean schedule three so that's that's a federal scheduling right that mean like that does that is that like comparable to you know cocaine and methamphetamine or is it comparable to something it's it's comparable to like uh it at the at the time when it was when it was illegal it was comparable to things like morphine and um opiates and ketamine uh benzodiazepines are also in that schedule uh cocaine was a dangerous heroin was schedule one right so schedule one means there's no medical value it's purely purely recreational and then for schedule three means that there is some medical value to it so so it can be prescribed

but schedule ones can't be prescribed right so that's kind of how they differentiate them and then you know obviously the criminal penalties go up go up as the as the schedule goes up okay so sorry I just wanted to clarify no yeah um so this yeah further clouded clouded a steroids into the shroud of odium that, you know, that has persisted. So now it became, and then it became, you know, because of all this, it also started to become, well, you're cheating if you take these and, and it started to become, you know, this just stigmatized, right? Stigmatized into, you know, all the studies out at the time were only done at people doing abusive levels. So there was just this wide thought that these were very bad for you and that they would, they would cause all these

health problems and issues, you know, and as time goes on, you know, we start to realize that these are actually, these are very beneficial. In therapeutic doses, they're very beneficial to millions of people, and they dramatically improve quality of lives, and they actually take people off of other medications. I have people who go off of opiates for pain, right, because testosterone and especially nandril in our anti-inflammatories, and they reduce pain. they go off of pain medications they go off of depression medications testosterone is dopamine ergic so it acts on our dopamine receptors makes us feel good right um they go off of it reduces cholesterol depending despite which you may read that it increases cholesterol

the new contemporary evidence shows and proves and i've seen it thousands of times where it reduces cholesterol um so people go off cholesterol medications it lowers blood pressure if you take it in the in the in therapeutic amounts that lowers blood pressure people go off blood pressure meds and um like i said depression medications too um so you know so it's making people healthier their their blood work looks better you know i've seen this thousands upon thousands of time and um you know but this you know like i said the stigma had uh just seeped from them from about the 1980s, maybe even a little before. And it took a similar path to marijuana, right?

So back in the 50s, during Riefer Madness, right? Marijuana was demonized, and it was actually educated that if you smoked marijuana, you could die or you would go insane, you would be in an insane asylum, right? That was the education on marijuana. And part of the part of what happened from that is that's why it became a controlled substance. Marijuana was made a Schedule I controlled substance. just because it was demonized and then would it take it took six decades for everybody to kind of go all right you know what marijuana isn't that dangerous in fact can help a lot of people so it's like it's been destigmatizing right and now it's pretty soon it's going to be legal in every state right so so so testosterone took a similar path to that right um and and it is slowly destigmatizing Like, it's starting.

It's just starting right now when we're starting to realize, like, a lot of people are really dramatically improving their quality of life. And that's just fact. I've seen it 20,000 times or more, and it's all over the place, right? So, you know, so I guess part of what I wanted to talk about with the Lever King is, and part of what you were talking about is the better tact would have been to jump out in front of them. right is to come out and say you know because a large part of it too is the what he's saying isn't wrong like his nine ancestral tenants there i mean a lot of the a lot of the advice is pretty

quick right you know eat healthy exercise a lot uh um you know live better do all these things and a lot of it really makes sense and it's true that it would help and and what would have made more senses to throw in and, you know, some of your, you know, for some people, especially as you age, your hormones get off and fix those. Get those in order. Get your hormones in order. And then, and he could have led with that and gone on that platform. And just like you said, I don't think he would have lost, like if he would have lost anybody from that, he would have gained in other supporters, right? Yeah. I mean, honesty is definitely the way to go. I mean, it, it, for, for every person that I think I lose because I'm I'm you know overtly honest about you know like my case or or

you know just things in general that I believe I I definitely pick somebody up and the people that are there are that much more inclined to stick around because they're like look you know even if I don't a lot of them are like look you know what he said I don't agree with that but he's honest about it like he's not and that's all that's all I think he had he had to do I totally agree with that And it's because of the stigma that he felt that he had to lie about that, right? It's the stigma. But that's the point. So the point of this, you know, what I want to get through is that these influencers,

he's an influencer at this point because he grew is, he grew a massive audience, right? So these influencers, they're the ones that can change this paradigm, right? They're the ones who can, I mean, instead of reinforcing the stigmas, it makes more sense to get ahead of it. try to change people's thought process, right? Try to try to change the paradigm into, okay, these aren't bad. If like, you know, there's nothing wrong with, with wanting to look and feel your best. Right.

Well, can I mention something? Yeah, yeah. He, I mean, so I absolutely agree with what you're saying, you know, my only problem with that is, like, I absolutely agree because like, you know, like, you know, obviously, you know, you and I met and we talked and, you know, and I, I told you like the issues that I was having, like I was working out all the time. But I mean, I was told you, I was like, I was, you know, I was constantly sore and not in a good, I just, I had a good workout kind of sore. Or like my, like my joints hurt, like things were hurting and I would bump into a wall and I would have a green and purple bruise that didn't go away for fucking three. weeks. It's like, what? That's not normal. But it is normal if you have low, if your testosterone's low and you're 53 years old. I'm 53 years old. Yeah. No. I wasn't hungry ever. So it was easy for me

to stay thin because if I didn't want to eat during the day, I didn't have to eat. Like now I have the opposite problem. Yeah. But, you know, we talked about it. I got my blood work done. You looked at it. You arranged for me to talk to a doctor. I spoke with a doctor. You did a whole write-up. You said, this is what you need to be taking. Yeah. You gave me what I needed to be taking. I started taking it. And, you know, probably lifting 30% more across the board.

And what's funny about that is that it's, and that took place over the course of probably two months where everything, I just started getting stronger across the board. And the other thing is, is that not only am I stronger, but it's not as heavy. Like, does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. 40% more and it's not as heavy and I'm recovering quicker and I'm sleeping better. My skin looks better like everything about me looks better. My only problem is, and I've already talked to you about this, is like I gained 20 pounds.

I'm hungry all the time and, you know, and that bothers me because I felt good like I want to lose some weight, but that's not that's not the problem. That's not the testosterone's problem. problem is I'm at home and I I snack yeah so um everybody can tell that I look you know I look much better or I guess bigger thicker yeah I was I was gonna say that too you do you look great yeah yeah you do you do look really good but you know a great job I and as you know and as you know so I was going to say but my problem is with him he was taking massive amounts like you prescribed like two medics two medications for me yeah he was way overdoing it

we'll go over we'll go over it here and you know you know a little bit later but but we're actually going to see that he what he what he showed on the what he showed on the email wasn't it actually wasn't it wasn't a wasn't a lot it was you know why i think it's a lot because because I think because the dollar amount was so high like everybody's big on he's taking over $10,000 a month but the truth is that what you prescribed to me it it's it it's a few hundred bucks yeah it's super inexpensive yeah what costs him a lot of money is the human growth hormone and that's really expensive okay so he I mean he was taking most of most of that pay was or most of that cost was human growth hormone which is really expensive from from a pharmacy

okay i didn't know that okay yeah but yeah we'll go over that but you know at the same time um um you know so for you right like like i said you've done a great job and you look good but but it's not like you can just take this and do nothing right like you you're working hard you're probably working harder now because you have the you don't have the pain you have the um uh and you have more you know like i said it acts on dopamine receptor so you have motivation and ambition so Oh, my guess, you're working out harder. Yeah, I feel better when I'm working out. Yeah, right.

When I'm working out and I can see, I can see gains. I can see a dramatic difference when I work out. You know, it's not, it's not, I'm not in as much pain as I am. Yeah. You know, jumping on the dip bar, you know, I'm knocking out 25, 30, doing like four sets of dips where before I would do them, my, my shoulders killing me. My back hurts. I'm getting off. I'm like, oh, I get off.

now and I'm like, Jack, I feel great. Yeah. Yeah, and it's fantastic. And this is what's stigmatized. That's the crazy part about it, right? Look how much better you feel. Like, how much better you look and that's stigmatized. And I guarantee your blood works better too.

I've just, I've seen it thousands of thousands of times. So, you know, so that's part of it. But my point is that is that you didn't just take these and just look like you do right now, right? And didn't get the games. You worked for it. So, and it's the same thing with the liver king. So, you know, part of the stigma is like, like a lot of people, especially those people who don't take it, they'll say, oh, oh, that guy's just on steroids and that's it. Like, that's the answer, right?

But to look like the liver king did, it takes a ton of work. I mean, his workouts were incredibly intense. And the rest of the things he was doing, the other nine ancestral tenets, you know, as weird as some of them were, but whatever, it's all, you know, it all makes sense. the rest of that did help his physique. So it's not like he would have been able to take the steroid stack that he was taking and then sit on the couch and just look like that, right? It's still a ton of hard work. And it gives you the impetus to be able to do that hard work.

Like you noticed, you know, the dopamine energetic effects from when you actually look better, when you're seeing results, that releases dopamine, which motivates you to go do it more, right? And it's just this positive reinforcing cycle, right? And so, but he should, but as we're discussing, he, he should have led with that, right? Just come out and, and, and then try to change the paradigm. So people don't think it's so bad by, by hiding it, by coming out later, you know, by hiding it, by having it leaked out now, he's, he's, he's just reinforcing these stigmas, right? Like, like, he didn't help the cause. He didn't help the greater cause to, you know, to normalize the use of testosterone or its derivatives.

Right. And that's part of the, I think that's an important message. Reclaim your life, right? Like, you know, male sovereignty, all these things. Like, you can, you know, you can have what you want, you know, the way that you envision in your head that you want. you can develop into the picture in your head that you have that you envision to be to look like to feel like right and and nobody should be ashamed of that so that's so that's you know that's what I was saying um before I said all right so what I have here when when our vision is

inherently poor we fix our vision when we feel terrible because our body isn't producing adequate insulin we fix our insulin levels when we are deficient in any mineral or vitamin we feel fix this by supplementing with vitamins and minerals? If our testosterone levels are not adequate or optimal, why wouldn't we fix our testosterone? These hormones make us healthier. They make us look better. They make us feel better. Nobody should be ashamed of wanting that for themselves. Right. And that's the point. And him being an influencer, should, he could spread that message. He would have gotten out ahead. It would have made actual business sense because now he's ahead of it now now he can actually help to change the paradigm and like you said there's there's

there's some business in that too and in changing paradigms into venturing into markets and places where other people haven't gone just because of the stigma right right i was going to say you know also his diet like let let's face it his diet it it's not insane i mean granted he you know the you know eat liver and eat this and eat the hard it really it's it's a high protein diet okay like i don't have to fucking eat liver okay you know like i can you can still it's just an extremely high protein diet is going to be good to build muscle um you know as opposed to you know the carbohydrates it's you know it's your body's going to break down um the carbohydrates you know into sugars and and use that as opposed to building muscle with the carbohydrate so he's kind of eliminating

that to help lower his his um uh you know his what fat level or you know the the amount of fat he has on his body like like his diet is he's got a great diet he's got a great diet plan he's you know his supplement the supplements are good like the only problem is you know saying that your physique is 100% based on just my supplements and working out and eating raw this raw that but the truth is is you don't know you don't necessarily have to you have to do those things but um but he's also using you know uh um You know, to do that. I mean, I wonder what's so funny is had he not used the steroids, he's probably still look amazing. He probably wouldn't look as amazing. Right. Yeah. Right. But he still looked fucking amazing. Just based on your diet alone. Right. Because I've always said that like, look, like physically having a great body, like 80% of it is your diet. Like maybe 90% like 10 or 20% is really working out. Like you could work out. twice a day. But if you're eating fucking cake and pizza three times a day, you can't outwork out a bad

diet. Yeah. You know, so it's a combination. Right. And it's almost more important to have a good diet. It's like 80% of it is you can have a good diet and just jog and have a great body. Like, you don't work out at all. You're not going to be muscular. Yeah. You're going to have a lean, a lean body because you eat good and you jog. Yeah. So, so, so, so, you're right like i mean yeah what you're saying about about it's all these factors right but but hormones hormones and his message were not diametrically opposed right so so what you're saying is correct it is about it is about all these other factors that including diet including the minerals the vitamins and minerals that he wanted you to get through liver right and his supplements were you know

had to do with that how to do it with getting proper supplementation and and all that is right there's nothing wrong with that message. Like, you know, the way he did it was a little weird, but, but, you know, that's what also got him a lot of views. So, I mean, I don't, there's no problem with that. There's no problem with the rest of his message. Hormone levels, you know, you're right. Diet is very, very important, but so are hormone levels.

Like, this is genetic factors, right? So, so essentially we're saying that, you know, people who just have low testosterone, they just don't have the genetic propensity that, that they would like, right? You know, the amount of testosterone in your blood, the amount of receptors, androgenal receptors you have to have the cascading effects that do all the things, such as hypertrophy, muscle cells, increase metabolism, have the dopaminergic effects. Like all those things, all those things are genetic factors, right? And so having, like I said, like having those hormones and receptors, they're all genetic factors. And if you don't have that, we can supplement with that and give you some of these factors that you may be lacking, right? Like sort of like vision.

Like that's why I like to really, I love to use vision because I think they've done vision properly, right? So the ophthalmologist decided, okay, here there's a wide range of vision, right? Some people have bad vision, some people have poor vision, genetic factors, just like testosterone. Some people have low testosterone or low receptors. and some people have high, well, high amount of testosterone. It's just genetic, right? So what we do with vision? We came and said, we established a level that we say everybody should be able to attain

because we call it perfect vision, 2020, right? So now we try to get everybody to 2020 vision. So when you go, you know, as you're young, you get your eyes tested. If your vision is poor, then we give you glasses or we give you contacts or people get Lasix, right? To fix their genetics so that they have the quote unquote perfect. vision, which is 2020, it's been established, right? We don't say, like, for, you know, and that's what they should do with testosterone, right? They should come up and say,

here's an optimal level where everybody's optimal at. Let's try to get everybody there because that's where everybody feels the best. They act their best. They're the most healthy, right? And kind of the opposite has been done. Like, they have this range, right? The testosterone range. I don't know if you know anything about the range, but the, but the ranges on the, the medical tests go from 250 nanograms per deciliter up to, I don't know, they're different. A lot of them are different, but we'll say up to 850 nanograms per deciliter. And that's the range, right? And this is rooted in nothing real and no real data. And, you know, and it's completely arbitrary because nobody under 700 feels optimal. And anybody under 500 lives, they're living lives of despair.

They're living, you know, terrible, depressed fatigue, lack of ambition, low libido, you know, just like, again, lives of despair. And to say that that level is normal, like on our blood test, the 250 is normal, that is absolutely ludicrous. Nobody feels normal at that level. So, so that's kind of what I'm talking about. Like, you know, because of the stigma, the medical community just hasn't focused on this. They don't learn about it in medical school. there's a general ignorance and lack of education about it, right? So we have this wide range.

Imagine if we had that wide range for vision. Imagine if we said, well, you're normal if you're from 2,800 to 2020, right? That's all in the quote-unquote normal range. So then they're sending people away with 2,800 vision because they're normal. And these people are like bumping into walls and everything and they can't, you know, they can't live any kind of quality of life. So, you know, that's why we don't consider it cheating when we give people glasses, right? We don't consider it the same thing with the insulin levels.

If you feel terrible if your insulin is, if you're not producing the proper amount of insulin, right? So what do we do? We just get the insulin, right? And it just, I mean, it's by the transit of property, we should just give people testosterone when they're low. It doesn't make sense. And again, it's all due to the stigma. You know, back in the, in the, from in the 50s and 60s, all throughout the 50s, all throughout the 60s, up into the mid-70s and late 70s, when you were 40 years old, most doctors recommended you get a hysterectomy. I mean, that was just it.

Like my mother went in for a hysterectomy. She didn't have any problems. She just went in. Why? Because I'm 40. Yeah. That's what you do. It's ridiculous, right?

Like now if you told a doctor that, they'd go, that's fucking insane. Like, why? What was wrong? I was 40. She went in for a hysterectomy to get a hysterectomy. You know, because they felt that it did something. It helped stabilize your hormones and it was better for you. And you were 40 and after 40, it was dangerous to have a child.

So she went in for a hysterectomy at 40 years old. of course and turns out she was pregnant with me oh well but that was a common thing to go in and have a hysterectomy is the same thing like when my dad was growing up you know they had commercials where they were telling you that cigarettes yeah were major lungs um stronger it made you a stronger person if you smoke cigarette like you know there there's tons of insane things that the medical community has allowed or advertising or just in general, just stupid things that they've gone with for 20 years. And then later they're like, just like you said, with marijuana, then suddenly they're like,

yeah. Yeah. So, Matt, you make an incredibly good point. And what you're saying is absolutely correct. The medical community's history is rife with blunders, right? Of these things that are wrong. Why would we think that they couldn't still, that this isn't occurring right now? Right.

I mean, you ask anybody who uses testosterone. I'm going to say, you know, I wouldn't say, I don't know, 95% are more of the people who use testosterone. It's life-changing. It's amazing. You know, they can't believe they didn't do this sooner, right? The other 5% are just people who don't know how to, or aren't using it right or aren't being guided right. And if I was their coach through these, they'd be feeling a lot better. But, well, there's lots of people that, you know, are just miserable.

No matter what you do, they're going to be miserable. Yeah. And sometimes it just has to do with, you know, everyone. everybody's different invariably everybody's different and everybody reacts differently to these compounds and you have to sometimes it takes some time to dial people in most people are like you they start taking testosterone and they and they're off and running you know all their hormones resolve into their proper zones and then they're often running with dramatically improved quality of lives right away and that's usually how it works 95% of time you know what it makes me

think of there's a story i heard one time which always which makes me think of the the medical community and just on a lot of topics it's like you're taught something and you just believe that there's a reason for it and that's the way it is and it reminds me that there was a woman one time she went to go went over to her in-law's house house to cook um to cook a roast and they asked her to prepare the roast and she cut off the both ends of the roast and they said what are you doing And she said, oh, you, you cut the ends of the roast off. They went, why? She said, that's how we do it, how you do it.

And they said, they went, really? Well, we don't do it like that. And she said, yeah, that's how you do it. So she said, let me, she called her sister. Her sister said, oh, yeah, no, no, you got to cut off the ends of the rose. And so they went, why? And she said, you know, I don't know. So they called their mother and said, why do we cut off the ends of the roast?

She said, well, that's how. how I was taught. Let me, let me call your grandmother. So they called the grandmother and they said, grandma, why are we cutting off the end of the roast? We're talking to this other family. They don't do it like that. And the grandmother said, well, because my oven only fit this much. So you have to cut off the end to fit it into the range. Yeah. And it's like, so you, so three generations of people have been doing this and teaching their daughter. And yeah. But the truth is it, you know, you don't a lot of times you're told something you accept it as being the truth you never look into it you pass that knowledge along and it was always it was always circumstantial yeah yeah yeah it's a great

analogy that's a great analogy and you're absolutely right it has like once a paradigm has been established it's really hard to change it it's really hard to change a belief system and you're right it doesn't have to be rooted in anything real right and and and so but But that's exactly what these influencers can do. That's what they have the power to do. That's what they have the platform to do, right, is to start to change these paradigms and change these belief structures. And that's where the liver king would have, that's where he, you know,

it would have been, you know, the best, it would have been best for his future. It would have been, and it would have been best for the entire industry. And for millions of other people who, you know, so you also have to think of this, right? Like, so because of the way the medical community is just behind. on understanding the contemporary knowledge and empirical data regarding these hormones. How many millions of people currently are living lives of despair just because, you know, again, there's a lack of education in the medical community about it. Right.

And how many people would be so much better? There's millions. Worldwide, there's probably hundreds of millions, if not more. How many billions of people have lived and died lives of despair just because of this lack of education, right? And he had an opportunity that he squandered. That's exactly correct. He had an opportunity to get out ahead of this and start changing the paradigm for

posterity, right? For future people to not stigmatize these hormones and for millions and millions of people in the future to feel better. What do you think? So what do you think moving forward for him? What do you think he could do? Like do you think I had talked to Dan about. this like like does is he able to move past this in some way because i i personally think that

he's going to lose 30% 40% of his followers but the bulk of these people kind of like you said they assumed he was on something anyway and in a way they're watching him because he's a character and maybe they just like the message in general like they like they're getting results and they don't give a shit what this guy's doing to get his results it's working for them. So are you thinking that this is something like he steps out of the limelight and tries to just kind of scurry away? Or what would you do if you were him?

Because by the way, because, you know, in a very real way, right? Like, like, you know, you have a past. And you said, it's just like me. Like I got out of prison and I was like, what am I going to do? Am I going to go sell used cars? and just kind of, you know, and just kind of hope nobody looks into me and just kind of keep my head down. Or am I going to lean into it and say, yeah, that's what happened. That's who I was then. Yeah. Embrace it. This is who I am now. Right. Yeah. And you can deal with it.

You know, to me, it's like you can deal with it or you can fuck off. I'm okay with either one. I'm going to be okay. And what I didn't understand was that there are tons of people that just said, I love that. I love that you're okay with that. And because you're okay with it and you've addressed it and you've hit it head on, just like you were saying, I'm good with it and I'm good with you. So that's what I think he does. And he leans into it and doesn't try and downplay it, which he's already trying to do, by the way.

If you watch his apology video, he was trying to downplay it. I didn't know I was going to be huge. I'd just say, look, I, you know, just he started off good. I fucked up. Yeah, right. So, yep. So that's one thing you have to commend him on is like, how many people have we seen in the past double down on their lie? Right. Yeah. It just come out. And that would have been a mistake. Right. So, so I mean, if there's something to commend him on here, it's that he came right out and it was like, yes, I did this. And, and, you know, there, you do have to, you do have to commend him a little bit for that. Yeah, no. I do. I think that was the first step in a right move and going in the right direction, right? Right. I think he did a half-ass job of it. it. But I think, I think, but, but stepping, but not addressing it is, it was not an option. Like, that's not the way to go. Or the wrong thing would have been doubling down, which a lot of people

have done in the past. Yeah, there could have been, yeah, there were two options. There were there three options. And he took the better of the three options. He just, to me, he just, you just wasn't 100% when he started saying, I didn't realize that. Yeah. I was going to, you know, no, you did. you put a ton of money into it like he did like don't like lean into it be 100% honest and don't worry about what anybody thinks because it's your only path to redemption yeah I totally agree yeah I totally agree with you too I don't I don't I don't see if he does the does this the right way I don't see it affecting his his followers or his audience or even in the end you know it may take a hit for a little while but but i think he can he can regain

everything in the end if he does it right yeah yeah yeah i think so because let's face it he the guy's a character yeah it's still amazing what he's doing i mean look at like you don't look like that you know without without a ton of work or without still really good genetics i mean it's not like i mean you could we could give i could give 99.9% of the people the same thing he's taken then they wouldn't look like that yeah i'm never going to look like that yeah yeah that's first of all it's still amazing i first of all i don't have well i just don't have the energy this guy's got yeah he has a a tremendous amount of energy um his diet but then again you're this is the other thing is like when you can when your whole life is looking like that because

this whole life is just training and eating and like then you can look like that yeah like i'm i'm I'm never going to be that. It's kind of like, it's funny because it, it's like I talk about, when I talk about like doing, you know, YouTube, I always think, listen, I'm not too far away from this thing paying my bills. So the moment it pays my bills, I can double down on it. Then I can, like, if I'm putting out three things a week now, like as soon as this pays all my bills, I get to drop some of the stuff I'm doing and double down on it.

then it becomes four or five and then it becomes me really being able to put time into people's stories and really putting out some some amazing content yeah but i'm not there you know so i think it's the same thing with him like if you got a regular job like it's going to be almost impossible to look like him yeah but if you could quit your job and do nothing but train and and and eat right then it's probably possible that maybe you could some people anyway it's still it's still largely dependent on genetics, right? Because like I said, it's not, it's not only the amount of androgens that he has in his system or the amount of IGF or human growth hormone, which we'll look in a minute here. We'll look that actually wasn't that high, surprisingly.

But there's still a lot of other genetic factors that go into this. So even though you're right, you are absolutely correct. Like if given that somebody had the time, the money, the wherewithal to do the exact same um exercise regimen that he was doing eat the same things i mean you could still give 99% of the people the same stack he was taken have them do the same and everything and they're still not going to look like that yeah but uh but you know people would you're right giving people the time giving people the correct diet and everything they they could get closer yeah well you could look amazing maybe it won't look like him but you're right right but he's still look amazing right but but he's he's still a genetic freak like yeah yeah he's he and he's and i love it too he's like

tiny he's like five foot seven yeah right right so i i was allowed to you know due to due to my history i was around a lot of bodybuilders and and one thing that you learn about about the body these body builders is that they are genetic freaks yeah like they take these things and they just their body responds to it like nobody else is they hyper respond um and they're naturally like naturally they they're just massive human beings and then when they take these you know take some some steroids and the surprising things is some of them don't have to take that much and they they just get huge it's like i was going to say it's funny because i would you would see you know a lot of guys will work out they obviously have workout partners and and i've known guys that have you know

there's like three guys they've been working out together for two years straight all doing the same exercises pretty much eating the same thing and of course one guy looks like a goddam he looks just looks like a phenomenal it looks like a bodybuilder he looks he's amazing yeah um and the other guys like it's like so you guys like two of the guy one guy has okay calves one guy has amazing calves the other guy has virtually no calves same doing the same stuff it's like he just doesn't seem to be able to build his cabman or the one guy has phenomenal shoulders the other two guys just don't they're all doing the same machines you know or they all look great yeah but you're right you know genetically it's just genetic genetics is a massive factor and how we yeah

and the way we look though you know every every aspect of us is all genetics right yeah some people have tiny weights yeah you know like it's like it's like they're it's like they look like a fucking hourglass it's insane it's like you can't get a tiny waste by dieting i mean some people just have thicker weights i mean it's just not going to happen yeah so well i guess you get have surgery you could cut some of those organs down squeeze it and get some of that mesh in there and squeeze the mesh maybe cut the pelvic bone remove a piece and like like you know there's some there's some people that'll go to the extreme but in general no your basic accountant is not going to get to look like that yeah yeah so so what was on what what what what was okay yeah we're

Really quick. To go into your issue, I wanted to talk about this. We might as well talk about in front of everybody. So you want to, you're talking about, want to lose 20 pounds, you know, just because, so what I tell a lot of people is don't pay attention to that scale when you get on TRT. The scale is going to be misleading, right? And I know you're saying that you want to lose 20 pounds. It's just like, and it seems to me it's more about you want the scale to say a certain thing, right? And I want to be able to fit into my size 30 waist pants. I used to wear my size 30 waist pants and there was still some room. I got like two size 31. But it's quality weight though. So, so like the reason you're eating more, it takes a lot of energy to hypertrophy muscle

cells, to build muscle and to maintain that muscle mass. So your metabolism increases significantly, right? So you're constantly burning more energy, which makes you more hungry. But But now, so your body goes from being in a catabolic state, in a catabolic state, you'll burn muscle mass before your fat stores. It's an evolutionary mechanism to save your fat as your last source of energy, right? So, but when you go in an anabolic state, when your testosterone raises higher, then your body switches to using your fat stores as one of your primary sources of energy. So now your metabolism's increased. You're burning a lot more energy. You're working out harder, which is burning more energy.

and um but but your body is is conserving muscle mass now and you're you're using more fat stores for energy so like all these factors go into it and it's more about so i tell people i said don't pay attention to the scale don't pay attention to your pants size it's about the mirror test right we just want just we just we just want to look good so do what i do to look good and if i were you i would think you look great i wouldn't lose anything don't lose anything i admittedly and i mean I do, I do understand that I look good, but, you know, it is also, yeah, I, I, I, I don't lose something. I got to lose at least 10 pounds. Listen, and I got a girlfriend that is no help at all. Like, she weighs 120 pounds, no matter what she eats. Um, she comes home, you know,

and then the other thing, too, is like if I eat like high protein, right, so I eat like white chicken breast during the day and, um, and, and I'm, I'm, I'm just drinking like water. or, you know, unsweet or like, you know, whatever, cranberry juice or something, you know, like diet cranberry juice and all kinds of stuff. Like, I mean, not all kinds of stuff, but I'm saying I'm a very, you know, really high protein. And then, and, and, and, and, and, and, you know, she's cooking pasta. And I'm like, no, I'm like, no, I don't want any pasta. And she'll make me a plate and put it down in front of me.

And it's like, what do you do? Like, and I'm starving. Yeah. I'm starving. Because if you eat 200 calories of protein, I mean, sorry, if you eat 1,500 calories of protein and 1,500 calories of carbohydrates, if it's the 1,500 of calories of protein, you're starving. Like as soon as I'm done eating the protein, I'm still hungry. But if you eat some pasta, you're like, oh, I feel so full.

I feel great. I'm so, oh, I feel, you know. Yeah. protein sucks yeah it's just for me it keeps me hungry yeah and i got you know like i said she's no she's no help congratulations about about you too by the way oh oh yeah it's not your girlfriend right i i i i it sounds so stupid saying you know fiancee it's a social construct that we have to we have to take on yeah it's it's it's you know she she Listen, she got mad at me today at the gym because she was doing, was she doing, was she doing, like she does dead lifts, but like, you know, which is, you know, but, you know, like a low weight.

I think she was doing, or was she doing dinner of a rose. I don't know. But anyway, I was playing on my phone. And when I was done, I could tell she was irritated. She's, all right, well, you know, let's go to the next machine. I was like, okay. And we got to go to the next machine and she was irritated. And I was like, what's wrong?

And she's like, I just did 40 deadlifts. And I went, okay, she was, you didn't look at my ass one time. Not one time. She was, you're so involved in answering comments and playing on the phone. I go, are you serious? Like, is that really, is that really a, are you serious? And she's like, yeah, it makes me mad. Like, you're supposed to be paying attention to me.

And I, bro, I started laughing. happen. I must laugh for 10 minutes. The girly things are just hilarious. I'm like, that, that can't really be an, this can't really be an argument. Like, this isn't happening. And then you're even more mad because I just laugh about it. You know, I don't even try. I don't even try and come up with an excuse or try and make it okay or say, baby, I'm sorry. I just laugh and laugh. The mission makes her even more mad. Yeah. But anyway, yeah. Yeah, but like that, yeah, we work out every morning and things are going good. That's great. Fantastic. Congratulations. That's great. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. All right. Let's go

over this guy's cycle, should we? Yeah. He's been known to cure insecurity just with his laugh. His organ donation card lists his charisma. His smile is so contagious. Vaccines have been created for it. He is the most interesting man in the world. I don't typically commit crime, but when I do, it's bank fraud. Stay greedy, my friends. Support the channel. Join Matthew Cox's Patreon. So how, like, I keep, because of the dollar amount, I keep saying, it was a, it was a massive

amount of steroids because it's so cheap. Yeah. You know, to me, they're extremely inexpensive. Yeah, just the testosterone is pretty cheap. and the nangelo. What cost him a lot of money is his amnitrope. So we'll just go over a one by one, I guess, where we can start. So the IGF, the IGF one.

So this is going to be ironic, right? Which is going to be ironic is, you know, if you watch the Derek more plates, more dates. Like, so I want the Derek, the Derek more plates more dates episode on this was, was really, it was really good. It was really well done. Yeah. And he did a great job of taking you from the beginning all the way through. through the uh through everything until he received these emails right that and that's kind of the funny part what happened is is the liver king before he became big sent Derek all of this

and was was asking for coaching right and he sent this to another coach i believe it was yeah i saw his video also i i don't yeah uh bigger steve i believe it was yeah he didn't know he had gotten he had been approached by him yeah Right. Yeah. He found this recently. Yeah. And it came last year. He just missed the emails, right? Have you ever missed an email from somebody who? All the time. I guess so many. I mean, it's ridiculous. Including my email. Do you remember that? No. Oh, that's right. That's right. You know, what's so upsetting is that a lot of times I'll read an email and then I'll mark it like unread because I'm like, oh, I want to go back and address that. Yeah. And then I get busy and then I forget about it.

And then maybe two, three weeks later, I realized, look, if I haven't, if I haven't responded to anybody in two or three weeks, these must not have been important. And then I just started racing them. Yeah. To catch everybody up on what we're talking about, when I went on concrete, back when I first got out of prison, I emailed Matt to come on and, you know, just discuss my story. And I never got a response. Well, then I went on concrete and Daniel called man and said, you got to have this guy on the show.

So Matt was like, oh, yeah, that would be great. And then I said, I said, when I got to Matt's house to do the podcast, I told him, I said, I emailed you once. Well, I mean, I missed it. I get it, though. But the same thing happened to him to, you know, to Derek here, too. So, yeah, I mean, I get that. I get a ton of emails that. It's hard to keep up on them all.

but uh yeah so so what happened is he had this for like a year and and and i don't you know the liver king becoming so big he just decided to go through and and see i don't i'm not sure exactly what happened there but for one reason or another he was searching to see if he had anything from him and sure enough he had these so he was sitting on this for a year he didn't even know it and uh and um so here we go uh uh So IGF, IGF1. Oh, that's what I was telling. So Derek Unmore played some more.

Dates said that he had his blood work, right? But he didn't show it on that video. And he said he was going to show it on another video and then do a dissection of the blood work, which I wanted to see. But he hasn't put that up. I don't know if he's going to or what, because I haven't seen his blood work. I've seen a couple of things that, a couple of just little things that Derek showed. I haven't seen the whole comprehensive blood work, which would be interesting because that's what I do, right, for a living in.

And it would be interesting to see, but I haven't been able to find it anywhere. But except for a couple things. I did see a couple of things. And but so one thing I did see. So he's taking IGF, right? So IGF is produced, human growth hormone produced by the pituitary gland signals the liver to, to produce IGF1.

IGF1 is what actually creates all of the positive effects that we consider, you know, that we see in the in the PED community. I guess, I don't want to say PED that has a negative connotation to it.

But all the, all the physical changes that occur from taking human growth hormone are because it, it, um, it produces. is it causes the liver to produce IGF1.

IGF1 is actually what does the, there's a lot of, there's a lot of conjecture that it does, it's anabolic, that it does cause muscle hypertrophy. And honestly, you don't really see that. I don't,

I don't think that there's a ton of, a ton, there's not a lot of muscle hypertrophy, if any, from IGF1. But what it does do is it, you know, it really does help a lot of, a lot of cells regenerate.

it keeps them from going through what's called senicence, which means that it inhibits cell death, which allows a lot of cells to survive and proliferate more. So there's a lot of regenerative functions that it has as well as, as well as just causing a lot of benefits. But some of the fine duneate tuning, right? Like IGF is also HGH in IGF, you know, one transforming into the other is what, so there are HGH receptors on adipose tissue or fat cells,

which force them to go through lipolisis. And this also forces our body to begin using our fat cells. is our primary source of energy over the glucose in our blood. So now our our metabolisms are increasing our entire bodies being runoff of our fat stores. So you really get this lean look from IGF or HGH, right, this really fine-tuned look. So the way I like to describe it is people who take HGH converts to IGF or you can just take IGF, right? It really fine-tunes the muscle and it really makes you look, like I like to say it makes you look like

you look like you're carved out of marble. The striations in your muscles really stick out like they do with the liver king and the definition, right? So it really seems to get rid of subcutaneous fat so that the muscle definition, the vascularity is really prevalent and the striations in the muscle can really be seen. So it's a really good fine tuner.

So he's taking this IGF straight, which is fine. You know, that's good. But if you look at the blood work that I did see, his IGF levels are actually pretty low, which is a little ironic because he's taking a ton of Omnitrope, which is Omnitrope is human growth hormone. I'm pointing at the screen like you can see it. Omnitrope is human growth hormone.

It's a pharmacy grade human growth hormone. And that's what's costing most of the money, but this is also converting into IGF through his liver. and his levels are low. So that's what's really strange. So what is this a function of? It's a lot of people are conjecturing that, you know,

it's possible that his liver just isn't, just isn't producing IGF from all the HGH he's taking, but he's taking IGF too, right? So his IGF level should be higher, but they're not. So it's probably more of a function of the time, a day that he took it because these have really short half lives. So the time of day that he took and if he took hours later, he took his blood test, then his levels may show low. Like they spiked up and then came back down and were low. And it's probably more of a function of that.

Because the data that we have, right, the, I don't know, I guess sort of the empirical data that we have is look at him. I mean, he looks like he's taking a lot of IGF and HGH. He's just incredibly lean and that's what that does right so my guess is that this is actually a function of just the time of day that he took his blood test it spikes when he takes it and then a few hours later so for instance when i had my um my illegal empire we used to test our hgh that we're getting from china right and and we would test it by i would give it to people and there's a certain time frame you have to test it at to get a full understanding of how of how much this hdh will spike your HGH levels or your IGF levels, too.

And so it was about three hours after you inject and go, it was somewhere between one and three hours, right? And so we would have people inject and go get their blood test one to three hours, and then we would use that information to give us an idea of how high this spikes your levels. That's when the half-life is going to peak, right? Depending on, it's a little different for everybody. Everybody processes these compounds a little differently, right? These peptides a little differently.

So, you know, there's a little bit of varying in time frame. But if you check it, you can get an idea of how much this is going to spike. So that's what I'm saying. It will spike up. And then, you know, within especially if it's four or five, six hours after you take your injection, your levels could drop, you know, significantly. Is it also, I guess, is it also possible that he wasn't on it at all? Like, it's just an old blood test that maybe he wasn't. Because with these emails, he sent his blood and said,

and said, I'm on this, and this is my blood work. Oh, okay. So that's where they're getting the blood work, because he sent it all to him. I haven't seen that. Like I said, Derek was going to post all of that and then do a comprehensive analysis of all of the blood work, but I haven't seen it yet. He hasn't posted it yet. I don't know if he's going to.

He said he was going to. I hope he does. I'm interested in it. But I have, I've only seen bits and pieces. And one of the things I did see is his IGF level was only like 187 or one something. And most people walk around with two. Or, I mean, not most people. I want to say, like, you know, a number I've seen a lot on people's blood test is around 200.

So, so he didn't, he actually probably had like a, I don't know, just a normal baseline IGF, right? For somebody who's taking as much as he's taking, right, he's taking all of this stuff, he's taking IGF, LR3 by itself. And he's taking Omnitropen, which converts to IGF, or your liver converts to IGF, right? It spurs your liver to produce IGF. So, you know, that was a little bit. But again, we look at his physique. It looks like he's taking a lot of this. So again, I don't know this for, obviously for fact, it's just something that with all the experience I've had, I would say that it's just, it's his low IGF numbers are a function of the time of day that he took his blood test.

Okay, so let's move on. The CG. Well, and here's more. Here's more IGF. I don't know. So it almost doesn't make sense these. taking all of this stuff, all of this stuff to increase his human growth hormone in IGF. It's taken a lot of stuff.

So this CJC with, it's supposed to be ipamerellin or ipamorellin. It's a HGC-C-C-credag blend. So what these are is they mimic human growth hormone-releasing hormones. So these signal your pituitary gland to produce its own endogenous human growth hormone. So he's taking IGF, he's taking Omnitrope, which is HGH, and he's taking human growth hormone secretagogues to get his own natural production of human growth hormone. He's taking a lot of stuff from human growth hormone. That's why it's also ironic that his IGF levels are so low.

So this is just a blend, again, that will raise your endogenous human growth hormone supply. Abutamoran is another one. this is also known as mk677 it's another hgdh secretagogue it mimics grelin just another hgge secretegog so there's four things he's taken to raise his natural or raises hgdh and

IGF which is a lot he's taking a lot of this and like I said it looks like he's taking a lot of this kind of stuff his the numbers I saw in his blood didn't show that it's a little ironic so again the omnitropin is pharmacy-grade human growth hormone so one thing i also wanted to say about all this stuff you can get at a u.s pharmacy and i'm he probably is he's probably getting all this from a u.s pharmacy but you could get all this stuff through through me

right yeah it's probably i mean i i assume it's i kind of assumed it's it's all he's working with someone you know like yourself and it's all prescribed like i didn't get all this prescribed yeah i i never thought for a second that he was you know shipping it in or you know getting it through some website or something i just was pharmaceutical grade yeah so yeah yeah so this uh the test cipionate that's that's what you're taking right so this is a this is a pretty low dose just 0.6 mm cc's per week most people take it take one per week one or one ccc per week. So, but so after this it says cruise dose, right? So cruise means so even by saying the term

a cruise is when you, when you're just on a maintenance level, something, a low dose of something just to maintain. And then you, you do what they call blasts in between, right? Which means you do a lot higher doses. So even using this terminology is an indication that he uses a lot more during periods, during cycle periods, right? So it's called blast and cruise. You cruise on this low maintenance level dose and then everyone wants you blast to get your levels really high so this is an indication that he does this so this is his crew using because he wrote this this is from the liver king he actually wrote that too derrick um so him using this language is means that he blasts as well so he takes higher doses you know during cycling periods um and deca is

nangelo and deconate, that's just another anabolic. That's really, it's systemically anti-inflammatory. It promotes the production of synobial fluid for joint. It's really notoriously reduces joint tendon pain. But it's also anabolic. So, but again, he's just taking 0.6 of each per week. That's not a lot. But again, it's a cruise dose. So, which indicates that he takes more. And I would like to see what he takes when he's on a, when he's on a blast or when he's on a yeah and then the 50 milligrams of windstrel a day which is which is you know it's not a ton i mean this it's the windstrel is stenazol it promotes it's anabolic it promotes lean muscle mass it does not promote water retention which is obviously he does a lot of things to he doesn't

hold a lot of water he's very lean very muscular so and you can see all the striations and this is the kind of thing that Winstrel promotes, right? And so does the IGF and the human growth hormone, all the human growth hormone that he's taking. But so this would promote a really lean muscle mass with no water retention. So, you know, so that's what somebody who is trying to be this lean would have to watch out for is testosterone can promote some water retention. So you would want to maybe limit that, depending on how your body reacted to it, though. I mean, I've seen, I've seen people take, you know, a little bit of Sustodon and D-Bull, and then a sustenade is a testosterone blend. So a little bit of testosterone and D-ball and be so lean, they look like they're ready to step on stage.

I've seen some people take a little bit of, a little bit of just testosterone and look like they have a water hose shoved up their ass. They have so much water retention, right? So it's really just genetics. So, I mean, you know, he's obviously got really good genetics. So, but usually for people, what we'd want to do, if you're. want to maintain that lean is to reduce the amount of testosterone and you're taking and taking some of these derivatives like nangolin doesn't convert to estrogen estrogen is the is the hormone that it's uh it promotes um it's a pro-inflammatory so it does promote

water retention so but nandrelin doesn't convert into estrogen or at least not much of it um and winchall does not convert to estrogen either so so these are these would be considered um steroids that do not promote water attention right so you and you would want to take those to maintain a really lean look and that so that's kind of what he's doing i mean that's kind of just a breakdown to what he's taken here okay so it's so you're so across the board it's basically nothing is excessive no no this is not excessive i guess i thought like i like i said that the dollar amount was so high yeah what's costing all that money is the omnitrop to take to take the the omnitrope that he was taking. I mean, that, that alone was probably, I mean, didn't they

even say like he was taking like $11,000 worth of a month of the omnitrop alone? Was it the omnitrop alone or? Oh, I don't know. The rest of this stuff wouldn't cost too much more than that. But what's costing the most amount of money is that I'm not sure from pharmacy, pharmacy grade omnitrop is is really expensive. So, I mean, so if he takes all of this prolong, for a prolonged period of time does his body you know how how difficult is it for your body to re-kick start it itself depends on him his age yeah it's going to depend on a lot of factors but his age is going against him and the fact that depending on how long he's been on all this stuff so so the you know the way it works is there's there's nothing definitive but it's more about the more time and so these these

These anabolic steroids, testosterone, angrile, and winchdel, will shut down your HPTA, right? Your hypothomic pituitary testicular access, which controls endogenous testosterone production and follicle-simulating hormone, which controls spermatogenesis as well. So the longer that we go with all of this shut down, without, yeah, with all of this shut down, the more potentially we have for some permanent suppression, right? So, so it's, but again, it's not, it's not in stone. Like, oh, yeah, if you, if you do it for this long, you're going to suppress this much. It's just different for everybody.

And so the amount of suppression would be, would be hard to say for him. And his age isn't going to help because naturally you're just going to start producing less and less testosterone as your age. Anyway, so, so him, like, I think, like, the latest thing, hasn't he been saying lately that he's going to go natural? like he's going to get off all this stuff that's going to be that's not going to work it's going to be hell because it does take a while for your body to well i mean you can take the medications to to jumpstart your HPTA your hypothomic but do a tertiastic lyricicly axis again you can take things to jump start that and get your net your indogenous production going again but again it'll be a function of how much suppression was there and that's impossible to tell

um it's and with his age there's going to be suppression anyway So how much of it is natural suppression and how much is it because he was on all this stuff? Right. And I, you know, and there is going to be, I don't know how much suppression there would be with his natural HGH production. That, I don't know, that doesn't seem to come into a play as much as it does with the, with the anabolic substances that he's taking. So, but, but he has been saying that he's going to go naturally, and that's going to be. interesting to watch because you're going to see a significant, like significant decline in his moneymaker, which is his body, right? Oh, that's what I was going to ask you to do. I forgot.

I wanted you to do this, this podcast with their shirt off like the liver king. So we could be like that. Oh, that's funny. Yeah, yeah. I don't think I look as good with the shirt off as I do with it on. I wouldn't be able to do that either. But, uh, um, it would, it would, be it would be interesting like it's it would be it will be really interesting to see i don't see how he's going to be able to keep it up because there would be some some significant decline in what he makes money on which is his body right well i mean he was you know from what he was saying he was making you know great money before and that none of this really mattered and didn't mean anything and you're okay well that's fine so you know what's a big deal so it shouldn't be a problem

Like, of course, he's got a taste of, I guess, fame at this point and it was working for him. Yeah, right. I can't imagine that all of that, that all of that, you know, the, the attention he was getting didn't increase his business endeavors. Oh, yeah. Well, he made it, I mean, from what, if I'm understanding him correctly, he was saying he had made like $100 million as a result of. of yeah which is ridiculous like I can't imagine yeah that that's the case but then again you know who how much can you you know at this point it's like oh was that also a part of the you know like or was that I've made a hundred million dollars worth of sales right yeah and it's not

it could be gross right and right you're making a hundred million dollars yeah it probably was gross too but nobody nobody define that like you can gross a hundred million dollars and really only put a very small portion of that in your pocket right yeah i was going to say you know yeah it's not like it's not like ford to make every time they sell a vehicle they're making fifty thousand dollars on a fifty thousand dollar sale right yeah they're making three thousand dollars on a yeah right so but um yeah it'll be interesting to kind of see but but it's also again by doing that even he's still like he's uh reinforcing the stigma right because he's saying he's saying, I'll get off all that stuff.

When he should take the tech to exactly what you said is, no, this is a part of what I do. This is, it's okay. I shouldn't be ashamed of this. And just like you, exactly what you said is just lean on it, embrace it. Right. And I think that would be his best method. Now he's going to do this gimmick where he goes off of this stuff. And, you know, and he's got the ability to have even additional, instead of having to fight this, you know, like you said, fight this.

fight what he's done, what he said, fight that, you know, have that whole, that whole issue of, of, no, no, I'm fixing it. Well, I, I, the only, the only issue was that I lied about it to begin with, you know, I don't have to fix it. What I'm going to do now is I'm partnering with this company, I'm doing this. I'm bringing on different people now to talk about it. Like, let's go ahead and examine this and let's talk about it. And let's, you know, let's look into it and make it a part of a part of my whole system instead of saying, okay, I'm off it. But that's not the answer.

Yeah. You know, you're exactly right. So whatever. We'll see. We'll see. He'll either implode or he'll maintain what he's got or maybe get, maybe do even better. And we'll see. Anyway, it's good content for me.

Yeah. We got an hour out of this. Yeah. it is an interesting story and i'm gonna put your story at the end of this you know so i'm gonna have your story at the end of this which i don't know how long how long your story was when you talked that when you did i don't know if it's 30 or 40 minutes or something no it was pretty long then they get going on that story and then i just i forget it was they were they were great when i made the shorts yeah the shorts were great

you did a great job on those shorts yeah well on the whole thing you did a great job in the whole thing but the shorts were really yeah i would love to be able to play them but the problem is i use b-roll for the b-roll that i used in those shorts were from um uh were from like oh god oh uh pain and gain you used some from pain and gain yeah i used iron man oh yeah i use iron man I used what's his name, the Wolverine. Yeah,

that's right. Ironman Wolverine. And I used a, what was it when they changed Captain America, when they put them in the machine. Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

And it comes out all. Yeah, yeah. I used all those. Yeah. Those were great. See, I wish I could do it, but as soon as I do it,

and it runs through the algorithm when Colby uploads this, it's going to immediately say copyright violation. Yeah. It sucks. Yeah. But at least I'll be able to play your, you know, your, I'll play your, your interview with you.

And I'm going to play the one where it's just you telling your, you just telling your story. I'm the one where you and I did it because I thought, I think you did a really good job. Just, you know, sitting on the stool and just just telling your story, which is a great story. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. But I mean, I'm good with, with where we're at right now. you you want yeah do you have anything else no yeah no what's and and i'm gonna put i'll put

your link to your website in the description i'll call will put it in there i appreciate that yeah i appreciate that and um you said you're not really doing any content on your channel or i haven't had time i really i honestly work 15 to 17 hour a day seven days a week the uh the business is is really taking off um and uh we have we just we just We're having a ton of clients. We're going to, we're on pace to be the fastest TRT clinic to a thousand clients in the industry's ever seen. Well, you gotta raise your prices.

It's been going really well. Well, but you know, part of it, part of what I, part of what I do, right, is I really, I'm passionate about helping people. I'm passionate about, in order to help people, the most amount of people in the most meaningful way, we have to make it more accessible, right? So part of that is reducing the cost. I don't think people to experience this dramatic improvement and quality of life and to be healthy, right, I don't think people should have to pay a lot of money for that.

So part of what, you know, part of what I do is to bring this passion, you know, with me is to really reduce this cost and make it more, like I said, more accessible to everybody. I don't know about all that. I still need some, I still need some, I still need some me time. I still need to be able to go to dinner and, and, you know, I got to be able to go to dinner, work out, hang out with my girlfriend. And, you know, so sometimes you got to raise your prices. But I, I hear Shane, I hear Shane, hire an employee. Well, I do.

I have four now and we're hiring more. I know you got to hire another one. Yeah, we're hiring more. And you don't even advertise or anything, do you? No, we haven't done any advertising. It's just like, you know, word of mouth. I've had a couple people ask me. Yeah.

Yeah. No, and I appreciate it because there has been some people who have come from this podcast and the ones I did with you, and it's been great. And some of the other podcasts have done. And also Reddit just took off as well. Like, there's a lot of people just, you know, it's kind of, like, I've been doing this for a long time, right? And I ran my elite, ironically, it's going very similarly to the way it did in the

illegal empire. I just, I'm using, you know, a lot of the same principles as far as just great customer service and, you know, making sure everybody gets their product, great customer service. And I just kind of come on here and I've been doing this for decades. So, and I'm a, I'm a biochemist like we've mentioned. And I just, I just know this. I'm very adept at getting people's hormones right and making them look and feel the way they want to look and feel and making them healthier. And, and so I just come in and just start. doing my thing, doing what I do, right? And I know I help people. I know over the decades,

like I've had a lot of, you know, people come back to me. That's what drives the passion, too, is people thanking me. They thank me for making them a better husband to their wives, a better father to their children, and a better supporter of their families, you know, and that drives passion, too. It makes me feel good to know that I'm helping people like that. And, but I guess I didn't realize just how like how much people appreciated it until the outpouring on Reddit like Reddit reddit reddit has been going nuts just if you know just evangelizing you know what we do what our team does and what uh and you know how how much we're helping people so that's that's what it's about all right sounds good um that's all right

we're good yeah thanks man i really appreciate it i really appreciate it i always enjoy talking with you even even when we you know when we're talking through text and everything and um and i really appreciate this and it's it was a lot of fun talking to me today too all right well i appreciate it i'm glad we i'm glad we did this um and i don't feel like we bash the guy you know like yeah i don't i you know because i yeah i wanted to bring a new perspective to it that some of the things that i think other people aren't talking about because everybody everybody's already talked a lot about about you know some of the obvious things right and I think you and I just kind of brought a little bit different perspective to it and it doesn't necessarily include bashing him it's just you know

here's what he probably should have done better and you know here's what he could do to do better in the future well and what he should probably do and isn't so we'll see we'll see if he implodes or not or what happened yeah it will be interesting yeah we'll keep I I'm excited to keep following this story for sure. Hey, I appreciate you guys watching. I'm going to put, if you keep watching the video, because obviously it's not over, Ryan's story is going, I'm going to play Ryan's story now.

I'm not sure. He said it was longer. I think maybe it's an hour or so. It might be over an hour. I'm not sure. But I'm going to have Colby put it at the end of this so you can watch his story. And it's a really interesting story. It's a cool story.

It's about how he got into a steer roll. and how he ended up running this super successful, you know, a website where he was selling and the money that was coming in and how eventually he ended up getting, he ends up getting busted and goes to prison and how he kind of restarted his, you know, used that experience and got out and restarted his entire life and is doing great, as you can see. And so definitely check out, check out his story and it's going to continue on the rest of the video. Do me a favor. If you like the video, share it, hit the subscribe button. comment. I have a Patreon. You'll probably see some silly Patreon commercials that I did

throughout this whole thing. Check out my Patreon and look at the description for my story. There's books and it's also on Audible. And so I appreciate you guys watching. And so check out Ryan's story. My name is Ryan Root. I am the largest convicted and steroid dealer in U.S. history. When I was younger, I was immature, underdeveloped. I didn't grow like everyone else around me. Even in my teens in the early 20s, I couldn't grow any facial hair. When I was 13, I began getting picked on because I was so skinny. It made me start hitting the gym. And I never looked back.

Even though I was hitting the gym, I still didn't develop the people around me. It seemed like I had to work twice as hard in order to get half the results of everyone around me. And when my peers would put in half the effort that I was, they would get bigger, look better, get better results than I did. This led to confidence problems. I wanted to please everybody around me, so I let people walk on me. I didn't get a lot of respect. I didn't stand out. I wasn't, you know, ever noticed and looked over a lot.

So when I was 23, I did my first antibiotic steroid cycle. I did Sustanon, which is a testosterone blend. Just did one millimeter a week, which is a very moderate amount. And I did 10 milligrams of D-Ball a day. I know that doesn't mean anything to everyone, but it is a very, very mild cycle. It's not a lot. So I, from this, I hyper responded.

I absolutely blew up. My entire body morphed. I put on 30 pounds in just five weeks. And in the same span of time, five weeks I put on, I put 100 pounds at my bench. A lot of people won't, you know, I've had a lot of people say that this is impossible, but it did happen and it is a testament,

I believe to how low my testosterone was, you know, throughout my whole life. And then when I finally got that testosterone, my body responded. you know, more than it does for most people. But this also, this response is what drove my passion. Because it's so dramatically improved my quality of life. Like now, now everybody started to respect me.

I was confident. For instance, everybody wanted to be my friend. Suddenly everybody wanted to befriend me. When I would walk into a bar, all eyes would turn. to look at me and people started just parting. The crowds would just start part in front of me whenever I walked through. I would accidentally bump into somebody and they would turn to look a little angry and then see

my impressive stature and then apologize to me. When I was in college, I had, during the summers I worked as a plumber for my brother-in-law. I hated the job. I was terrible at it. I didn't care anything about it. But just from standing before him looking stout, he suddenly just gave me a raise. It just changed my entire quality of life. Everything was better. From feeling better to, you know, now I stand out. I'm much more muscular.

I develop perfectly. Like all muscles striations, the muscles grew in the word area. And it dramatically improved my... my quality of life. So I lived two different worlds, one before, steroids, and one after. And I vastly prefer the world after. So when I was, at this time, I was in college for biochemistry. And this made me tailor my degree to the study of hormones. I changed, you know, I started picking classes that would, were tailored towards hormones. And then because of the passion of how much it improved my life, I also, uh, I also, uh,

studied on my own, voraciously. Every day I would research what these compounds did, what these chemicals were, and how they affect the body. And I just read and read and read and just took in a myriad of information. So, um, so naturally, because I, of the way I looked, people would come to me to me to, asked me how I did this and asked me if I could help them and do the same thing. So at first I just started, you know, getting stuff just at cost for people to help them. And I started dramatically improving people's lives as quality of lives in the same way that I improved my own.

And people started really respecting me and admiring me for that. Pretty soon, like people started to understand that if you want to look your best, look and feel your best, you come to me in, I'll help you do that. It drove, for once in my life, I was finally creating value. I actually was able to help people in a really meaningful way. So it drove more passion. I became more passionate about it, more studying, more understanding. Pretty soon I started to think about it.

Well, it was time to probably monetize this. I was doing it for so many people that I might as well, you know, just, you know, charge people for it. And that just came by just marking up the products that I was getting. I also learned, I'm a social chameleon, so I was able to, you know, befriend anybody who had what I wanted and really find out their sources and figure out supply chains and orchestrate deals and be able to bring it to more people. So, so it's, at some point, I was able to, you know, in doing this, I was able to find a source

from China that had unheard of low prices. This source was, you know, one of the kind, I almost had to have had almost the best prices in the entire country. at this time. So I ended up developing the source and being able to help more people and pretty soon I became one of the, you know, the man to go to in my entire city. So everybody knew that to come to me if you wanted to look and feel your best. I was the man to come see if you wanted to do this.

So I still lived in a small city and I wasn't making a lot of money. of money. Even though I was the man to come see, I still didn't have a ton of clients because it was a small city, and I wasn't making a lot of money. At this point, at some point, I was actually arrested for a small time, and same thing, possession and distribution of anabolic steroids. I was set up by a CI, and I had to go do a short state prison bid. And I just did like six months in a state prison. And I got out and I had two years of parole afterwards. When I got out, so right before I was going into prison, I left, I took the source to one of my best clients at the time. He was a friend of mine, but he was also one of my best

clients. And I just, I didn't know what to do, but I was trying to set up something for the future. And I gave him the source. And I said, here, here you go, use this however you want. But whatever you develop, whatever comes to this, when I get out in the future, I may come back to you and I'd just kind of like, I'd like to be a part of it. So I did my bid. I get out of prison and I'm on parole. And at first, for a long time, I tried to stay away from, you know, going back to the same thing I was doing. But I was, you know, I had a felony now.

I couldn't get a job. I applied to a whole bunch of different, you know, positions. I couldn't get anything. You know, I was getting depressed. I went back and started doing steroids again. It made me feel a lot better, look a lot better. And this time I didn't have any job, so I had a lot of time to work out. So I started working out really hard.

I spend double sessions in the gym. And once again, I started getting really big and looking really good. And it was a billboard for what I was doing. So people were coming to me, asking me again to help them out. And I tried to deny it for a while, but I was dirt poor. I couldn't support myself. I moved in with my grandmother. Living in my grandmother's house, there was times when, I remember times when I only had like $5 to eat for the day.

So I used to go to McDonald's, and that's back when they had dollar double cheeseburgers. I used to buy like four of those. And that was my food for the day. You know, people would ask me, hey, let's go out to eat. Let's go to Applebee's or something. And I wouldn't. I said, no, I can't do that. I can't afford that.

Things are just, you know, I couldn't support myself. So eventually I started to get back into selling steroids again. I had this and I had the same source I mean I still had the connect so you know it was still a really valid source and so I started picking up locally and that helped a little but again I wasn't making a lot of money and then you know what at some point I at some point I so one of my clients told me about this online forum this online forum was it was a source forum and I went you know where all these sources could you know you know lay out their products and

sell over the internet to anyone in the United States so I looked I went and researched and I found out that I saw all these sources I saw all these people selling steroids and I found out that this was the largest source forum in the United States or I mean in the world and it got something like a million unique hits so I mean there was a massive amount of traffic on here and I started research and started looking at all these other sources on there and and I could compete with all of them and I couldn't believe this like I kind of thought that there's no way I would be able to compete you know with people all over the country but you know as I said I had a great Chinese source and and I could compete so I

I started really putting together a plan to to become sell online. So, you know, I bought like a bigger stock than normal. I had my laptop. I had a duffel bag full of steroids and a laptop, and I just went on there, and I made a list of products that I had. I was going to, you know, just shoot my shot, and I posted online this. list. So now let me go. And at the same time, the friend that I had given the source to

before I left suddenly called me, right? You know, right when I was about ready to start this online business, all of a sudden I got a phone call from him. He said, hey, what are you doing? It was kind of a little surprised to hear from him. It's been like two years. And I say, you know not much how you do it he said hey i'm almost at your house can i stop by i was a little weird but sure yeah it would be good to see you um so he uh he stopped by so now this is a guy who uh i don't even know if he finished high school uh and he wasn't you know he wasn't ever able to really hold down a job he uh he had sold everything he was a you know a dealer and sold just about everything. And he was never able to make it big or really, you know, do anything. And so when

he came to visit me, he pulled up in this brand new decked out with aftermarket improvements, brand new Hummer. I mean, this thing must have been $80,000. And he gets out and he comes up, he's got this big smile on his face and he gives me a big hug. He grabs his bag out. He grabs his bag out of his back seat. And then he said, and I said, what, where did you, what is going on? So he said, let's go in the house. Okay. So he comes into my house. And he, he opens this bag and it's full of steroids and money, like wrapped, you know, stacks of hundreds. There must have been $30,000 in there. And I had never seen this much money in one place. I said, what is going on? And he just, you know, smiles at me. He starts throwing these boxes.

bottles of steroids at me. I'm just like catching them and what is happening here? And he says that source he gave me, I turned it into a gold mine. I'm like, oh my God, I cannot, I can't believe this. He said, I made $900,000 last year. Now, he sold a little bit of everything, but he was making the most money off of the steroids. So he never told me exactly how he did it,

But he gave me clues as to how he set up this operation. I asked him a lot of questions, and he gave me a lot of answers without clearly defining exactly what he was doing. But what he did is he imparted a motivation in me, because I was already, and I was already about to start this online, and now he kind of reinforced to the idea that this can really work. And now I had sort of like a vague idea of a blueprint because he, you know, he did give me some information about how his operation ran. So now I'm more motivated than ever. And so I go and I post online. I just went on the, you know, I made this list and all I did was posted online.

That's what everybody was doing prior to that. Now, to understand exactly what happened at this point, it's important to understand the zeitgeist of the anabolic world at the time, or the ethos of sources, you know, people in relation to sources. So in the late 90s and the early 2000s, there was, derories were hard to get. They were very expensive and they're hard to get, especially in the 90s. And they became easier and easier to get. but um but there was still this uh the every black market uh everybody in the black market was terrified of of getting a fraud of getting fake gear or gear is uh what you know what juice calls any any of their had-a-bolic steroids whether it be the pills or the or the injectables

or whatever it's all just broadly defined as gear so Everyone was terrified of getting fake, fake products. If your name isn't known and if you're not selling a brand that is well known, and at the time, the concept of what's called the Underground Lab or UGL or an underground lab, where this is where people just make their own stuff and slept their own label on it, that was almost unheard of at the time. Maybe it had, there was just a couple, and it had just started. but it wasn't it wasn't common and people weren't that accepting of it yet so so when i

posted on here um even though you know the further explained my chinese source so had had one of the top brands of you know there's five or six brands that people accepted but you have to be selling a brand that people accept and you yourself as a source have to be have to be well-known and accepted and you have to be branded yourself and you know I was just the nobody posting I didn't know exactly how this would go over but I was selling British Dragon gear which is a which was a well-known well-known name ironically the original British Dragon had had gone under a couple years ago they all got busted a couple years prior but my source just started making stuff and slap

a British dragon name on it because they were gone now and selling the British dragon name, repurposing the British dragon name and just selling it. Now, most people knew this, but the new British dragon was quality just like the old British dragon. So it was just kind of like one of those unique scenarios where people slapping labels on this new stuff was accepted because both, whether he had the old stuff or the new stuff, it was both quality and nobody seemed to really care. So I had the new British dragon. It was incredibly cheap. I had incredible prices.

And so another thing that Gene, or my friend who came back, or the source, his name was Gene, had taught me was how to reduce my price with this Chinese source, how to reduce it even further than I had it. So I went on there, mentioned Gene's name, and this Chinese source must have been one of the biggest suppliers in the entire world at the time, because they were supplying the whole world. And, you know, everybody knew this British Dragon name and they were the only ones doing it. So, so, you know, to get an idea of how big they must have been, the entire world knew who they were. Well, when I mentioned Gene's name, the guy knew exactly what was talking

about, had a lot of respect for Gene. And, you know, and I told them that, well, I'm the one who introduced you then. I gave them the source originally. It kind of put us on terms, and then I said, well, Gene's paying this. I want to pay this too. And the guy just kind of, although he did, you know, he gave me a little pushback. I started saying I can be as big as Gene, but you need to give me this price reduction. And he did. So now I'm paying even lower. But I already had almost the lowest prices in the country, but now I'm paying lower. So my profit margins are going to be able to go up. But the problem was that I wasn't branded myself. Nobody knew me. So I was met when I made that post, I was met with animosity.

I was met with animus, anger, hatred. You know, people just, they don't even want to deal with a new person because the rate of fraud had been so high. So I pretty much got laughed off of the board and the mods even took my, the moderators of the forum even took my post down. And then pretty quickly they they post it again or they PM me private message me and said that we haven't because of all the fraud lately we have a new rule that you have to create a website and then if you create a website that shows that you're at least serious enough to put that kind of effort in and you're less likely to be fraudulent so all I had to do is make a website now it sounds easy but at

the time I didn't know anything about a website and it wasn't as easy as it is now. But at the same, but I didn't know anything about it. So to me, it was almost like, well, that's done. I can't, I have no idea how to do that and I'm not going to be able to. So I guess this is, this dream is done. But I started to think about it and I, I had a friend who did know about that. He was one of my clients. So I just gave him some free steroids and asked him to, if he could set me up a website. He said, sure, I can do that. Okay. So, but it wasn't that easy. It's all, now he just sets me up a website and I go.

So the issue was that you can't just set up a website on Wix or WordPress and, you know, throw a dot com after it and have a website. It's traceable, you know, right back to a person. So the website has to be hosted outside the country in a country where it's illegal and where the United States wouldn't have any jurisdiction. So if they go, if anybody knew what was going on and they went and searched, they wouldn't have jurisdiction to go, you know, get this, get the contents, you know, it's hosted outside the country. They wouldn't be able to get the email contents or they just wouldn't have any jurisdiction. And plus, it's legal in that country. So there's nothing anybody can really do. So we picked, Ila Mann because it was just a cheap domain and steroids were legal there. so my my website was called bd supplements that i am for all the man bd supplements because i sold british dragons so i had british dragon supplements

bd supplements that i am um so before the website was up from that that post that was up for one hour which everybody laughed at i almost got laughed off the site i got three emails and i call these people the ambassadors um the ambassadors were people who, so this forum had, it had a point system, right? So if you're, you are a member that helps a lot of people that gives out good information and just posts a lot and people respecting the community, you get points. So these points, you know, accrue and aggregate, and the people with the most points, you know, have a lot of respect in the community.

So, like, two of these guys had a lot of points. And I knew, I started researching them, and I see that they had a lot of respect. within the community. So each of these people said that, listen, we can't just buy these things for me because there's been, there's too much fraud. So, but we like British Dragon stuff and you're the only one here on this, on this forum that's offering British Dragon and we like British Dragon. So, uh, so if you can send us something, just send us for free and we'll post about it. Um, so I was reticent to just give stuff away for free. For free. You know, I, and that was short-sighted to me. In retrospect, I shouldn't have been so

reticent to do this. But if you have a good quality product, important thing is to get it out there. And that was my first business lesson, is that that's important. So I shouldn't have been so reticent to do it, but I did do it. But I rationalized it by saying, well, I don't want to give a product away for free. So how about if I send you this? You guys, these products, when you get them and you see that they're good, then you pay me later. And they said, okay, they all agreed. So I sent out to these three people. So I remember, so at this time, I actually got a job at the emergency room.

I actually had to volunteer at the hospital for months, like four or six months or something. And then, and I finally, while I volunteered, you know, I did good work, so I asked for a job, and they gave me a job. So now I had a job. I was only making like $9 an hour, and it came out to about $270 a week. and I still couldn't support myself and on that income. But, and I was selling a little bit of stairs on the side, but it still wasn't quite enough. So I was working at the emergency room, and I remember checking my email in the emergency room. I was, you know, working on my legal business in there, which in retrospect was pretty stupid

because the IT department could see everything we're doing on those computers. But I did it, and nothing ever came to that. So, I, so while I was, I was checking my, at work, and all of a sudden one day, I remember seeing, I had, prior to that, I wasn't getting any emails, obviously, because I didn't have, I wasn't a source on this forum yet, there was no way to really get my name out there. I only just had those three ambassadors, and I don't even know why I checked it, but this one day I checked it, and there was like five, five emails in there from people. I didn't know and I read them and all of a sudden they started saying that so the one of the one of the ambassadors what his handle on there was sicko C-Y-C-C-O and sicko had his said sicko sent me he said you have good stuff I'm interested in the British dragon here here's what I want here's my order how do I

pay and each of them said something like this and I was like where is this coming from so I didn't I understand how suddenly the awesome people are asking me for ways to pay them. And so I went on the site, the forum, and sure enough, this sicko had posted pictures of the stuff. It was like a couple weeks later, and he said he started doing it, and it was really good. And, you know, and he got the shipment in two or three days. And, you know, this is a good source.

You know, this is a good source I got it from. And he couldn't post my name because I wasn't. official source yet. So people started PMing him, hey, where'd you get that British Dragon stuff? And he would give him my email address. And so that's how some of these guys started coming in. So, you know, ironically at the time, I didn't even think far enough ahead to it because I didn't even, you know, the way I got laughed off the side, I didn't even really think about how to get paid. So when they asked me, how do you pay it? I haven't really thought about it. Everybody does Western Union. And so at first I just had to give them my name, my real name, and I had them send money to me. And I mean, I fixed that problem pretty quickly, but the first few people sent money directly to me,

which is not very anonymous. But when I got these orders, I took this money, right? I think the three orders I had came to about a lot. $1,150 and I probably was going to make about $550 that was profit for me. And I remember, and I had never made that much before in one day. So when I went to the Western Union, I picked up this money and I had this $1,150 in my hand. Like, I just felt this warm sensation through my chest. And I was just like, it felt good.

It was dopamine, just rushing through my system. And I just, I felt great and I felt motivated. and I found it drove more passion. So when I sent these guys their products, so one of the key factors that led to, you know, that eventually led to my success over all these other sources that were on there was that the black markets there were deals are not known to be masters of business administration, right?

So they were terrible businessmen. So, you know, at this time, when I came in and started implementing some pretty simple good business practices, I was the only one doing that. And, you know, so for instance, free shipping, everybody else was charging for shipping at the time. And I did priority shipping, which got the packages there in two or three days, which nobody else was doing the time. Everybody was sending their product snail mail, and I wasn't supposed to touch that. Everybody was sending their products snail mail, so it would take, like, even domestically, it would take like two weeks for everybody to get their order. And as simple as it sounds, I was the only one doing it at the time.

Fast shipping and good customer service quality products. So at the time, the customer service was terrible. Again, black market and bulk stereo dealers don't have a kind of. of, you know, the customer's king, good customer service. So when you have a lot of people who are, and you have something that they want, and you start to get a lot of, you know, an audience of people who become like sycophonish, right, and servile. And they start, you know, they start like kissing, you know, kissing all these guys' ass. And it starts to build up a mania within within uh within uh within these other black market stereo dealers and

and they would get and you could see the mania developing they start become megal maniacs and start to think that that they're almost godlike and that and if anybody you know tries to uh you question them or say hey there's something wrong uh they would immediately get defensive and and uh you know yell at the person with you know uh degrade degrade them and and do you know who I am? You don't talk to me like that. And I noticed them doing this. They were ostracizing their own customer base,

their own client base. And the way you're talking to this guy, he's not gonna client any more. You know, you're just destroying your own client base. And it happened a lot. And I told myself right there that I wasn't gonna do that, that the customer is king, and that I would take ownership of any problems

and make it right with the people. So when I came in with fast shipping, quality products, free shipping and good customer service, I was the only one doing that. So by the way, after I started implementing these simple good business practices, the entire industry shifted to what I was doing. And these simple things, I was the first one to do it. But that's what kind of started generating some of the massive audience that I began to gain. So when I sent those other people to products, the same thing happened, two or three days, products are good, they start posting.

So I got a hold of the sicko guy, emailed them, and said, hey, I just got three of your guys, thank you so much. That's great. I said, you know, by the way, if you can keep sending people, then don't worry about paying for your own. And he goes a few, you know, he goes a few people. I got about 30, I'm going to send you. And that kind of shows you about one good, I mean, another big. business lesson is you find one good person, one good ambassador or one good salesman, and it could totally change the face of a business. And this is what he did. This guy just

kept sending people, sending people, shortly after that, and for the rest of the time, he obviously got all his stuff for free. But, you know, so what one good salesman can do absolutely change the face of the business. So he was sending me people, and another one was actually sending me people too and pretty soon I just had I had orders coming in I was having a few a day to like five a day and it was the same thing so you know fast shipping quality products good customer service free shipping the main thing was the two or three day shipping that was brand new to people and when they would post that I got my products in two or three days and everybody would

everybody started posting online and I started encouraging people to post online well that just drove in more people so now mind you i'm not even an official source on this on this forum yet i'm i don't even have a name out there like it's this is all just through word of mouth but at this time i have like probably 30 clients and in just i don't know a few weeks or maybe i don't even think it was a month 30 40 clients um and uh you know it's it's starting to flowed in and uh so so um so eventually the uh so eventually uh i um the website was created right now i had this uh the website my friend got done with the website we're hosted outside of the country we have all these things so i went back to the

the mods and I told them, okay, I've complied with what you needed me to do. Here's the website. Can I become a source? Well, nobody answered me for a while. So, and I didn't know what happened. I went and I asked him again, hey, I have this website. I've complied with your regulations. Can I be a source?

Nothing again. So I just kind of like, I don't know, days run by. I didn't know what's going on, but I was getting more and more customers. So it was kind of like, you know, I was kind of busy and I didn't think about it. And then one day I, so one day I woke up in the morning and all of a sudden I had like, you know, double, maybe even triple the amount of emails that I normally do. And I didn't know like why suddenly would I have that. And I noticed that, yeah, these are all orders and people are like, you know, most of these are orders. This is, what happened?

What happened? Why did I just suddenly double my, double my audience, my client base in one day? So I go around and I look and I get it on the form, I sign into my account, and something looks different, but I can't quite tell what it is. And I notice I also have a bunch of PMs or private messages, and I start reading those, and it's more people who want to make orders. I'm like, what is going on? Where are these people coming from?

I don't understand. And something looked at difference. And then I finally noticed that I actually had a source tag now. So suddenly, just like that, they switched me to a source tag. And now I was up on the list. I was listed in the ranks of all the sources. And I was officially up and running as an official source. And now, again, this is the largest antibiotic source form in the world.

So things just started to get back there. Now, ironically, when I started this whole idea, I was hoping, like, you know, like begging, like, like, or not begging, but praying for an extra $2 to $300, $200 a week. Because if I could make $2,300 extra dollars a week, I would be comfortable. And that's what, that would be perfect. Like, that would be the sweet spot. And I thought that, I even thought that that was a little overzealous. That was, I was asking too much for that. I just, I had no idea what to expect from this and two or three hundred extra dollars a week was probably too much, but that's what would be perfect.

And that's what I was aiming for as a perfect scenario. Now, so again, I was making about $270 a week plus a little bit in local sales, which wasn't much. I could not support myself. I couldn't even go out to eat for dinner. I wouldn't have been able to, if I didn't live in my grandmother's house, I would not have been able to pay my bills. I may have been out of the street. But so all of this just went so synergistically and so well that I went from that $270 a week or whatever to within six months.

I was pulling in about, I mean, this business just absolutely blew up. After I became a source and more orders went out and more people started posting, this blew up, like more than I could ever have dreamed or ever imagined. So I went from making $270 a week until I was pulling in about, within six months I was pulling about $21,000 a week. And, you know, it just kept going up from there. Within a year, I was pulling in $40,000 a week within, It just kept going up within, you know, this is like $220,000 a month.

Within a year, two years, we were up to closer to, you know, getting closer to $100,000 a week. We're talking about, we're talking about $300,000 a month. You know, by a year in, I was a millionaire. probably about two and a half years in I moved to New York I bought this I was able to get a get a $9,000 apartment and I lived in I moved to the greater New York City area so it wasn't quite New York I lived in the Jersey side but right on the Hudson overlooking Manhattan in this penthouse $9,000 a month penthouse I was able I got a brand new Jaguar at least it at least this brand new Jaguar a hundred and thirty

thousand dollar jaguar F-type freaking 550 horse for this tiny car was this amazing I had a new girl gorgeous I mean everything you know and everything just kept getting better so at this point when I'm pulling in probably like within the six months I'm probably pulling in about 21,000 a week It was a very fast change. It absolutely blew up and took me by surprise. So there was a point when I became overwhelmed. I woke up one morning.

I checked my emails. So the way my day worked is I would, I wake up in the morning, I would check the emails. I would usually go to the gym, then go to work at the emergency room. I would work the whole time there on my illegal business as well as work, you know, and I had to, you know, when I could, I would do some of the emails, but, and I would get, I had like a three to 11 shift. So when I got off of work, I would come home and I would have to pack all the orders from, you know, that I collected. I have to do the rest of the emails, which took hours. I usually didn't get the bed till like probably 5 a.m.

Then I had to get up at like 11 for, so I could go collect money. all the money from the emails from that night, go to the gym and then go back to work. And that was my day and it was full. So I woke up one morning and I don't know. I usually had probably like 30 to 50, 50 emails by then. And then, you know, I would get a few hundred throughout the day. But in the morning, there's usually maybe 40 or 50.

This is like 11 o'clock. And this one morning I woke up and I had like 200 emails already. And this thing was just spiraling out of control. Like, I was absolutely overwhelmed. I wasn't the man who's prone to panic attacks, but if I ever had a panic attack, it was right now. And I remember just putting my hand in my head and my heads and said, I can't do this. Like, this got too big. This is too much.

I'm going to get caught. I can't do this. It got out of control. This is too much. You know, I'm going to get in trouble. I have to stop this. So my plan was I was going to fill all the orders of people who had paid because I don't want to, I don't, you know, want everybody to lose their money.

So I'll fill all the orders of people who already paid, but I'm going to tell everybody else that they can't order that I'm done. They can't order them done. And I'm just going to stop. That's it. I can't do anymore. So, I'm sitting there and I start to feel a little better because of, I have a plan. And then it starts, I start thinking, it starts hitting me. So, to go back, another one of the problems is that I, a lot of things that scared me is that after I filled all these orders and collected this money, I was going to have about $100,000 cash at my house.

And I never dreamed in my entire life I had to hold back that much money. You know, not to mention there's more in my basement, and money just piling in every day. And as stupid as it sounds, it became scary. Like, this was too much. I was going to get in trouble. Like, this is too much money. I just got terrified. So, you know, I have this plan.

I'm going to quit. I, and then I started thinking, like, as good as the money is, and a lot of people think that, you know, people do this because of greed. Like, you want the money and you just keep going, even though things are sparring out of trolling, it's getting too crazy, it's getting too big, like, you're right, this is getting a little too big, you're putting yourself in danger, getting caught, and it's just greed that's putting you on. And that's a very, it's a very facile explanation. It's not an accurate depiction of what actually happens to drive you on.

The motivation and driving force for somebody to move on who's in a situation like this is dopamine. And dopamine is the neurotransmitter that conveys motivational salience and ambition. These are all other, and passion. These are words for dopamine rush. And you get dopamine from, you know, anticipation of helping people or of being able to obtain some reward. If you can see a reward in the future, dopamine is produced in order to narrow your focus and motivate you and make you ambitious to go get that reward. So in this case, the reward isn't just money. It's not, it's not, it's, that's facile to just to call it greed and wrap it up in one simple explanation and throw it out.

It's much more complicated than that. So a large part of the reward is, so every day, every day, every single. single day I would receive emails, and I did throughout the entire process of this, I would receive emails from people that they said, they thank you me. They said, thank you. You've made me a better husband to my wife, a better father to my children, a better, just a better man, I'm more confident. I can finally fuck my wife. I have the ambition and the drive to go out and do more so I can actually make more money and better take care of my family and thank you and you make this process so efficient so easy and so cheap that you allow me to do that and thank you

and I got that every single day every single day multiple times a day and and that drives knowing that this many people are counting on me drives that dopamine rush when when you help somebody you are rewarded with with um dopamine oxytocin serotonin endorphins and and so so what i'm rewarded is thinking about continuing to help people it releases dopamine and makes me want to go get it so so i started thinking about about letting all these people down and this is bigger than me just me right now because i'm helping thousands of people at this point i probably had a thousand if not more clients and I'm letting all of them down and this is bigger than me it's not about me anymore it's about providing the sufficient process to help

these people and I'm going to let them all down that drove a determination in me narrowed my focus and I said and I said fuck that I can do this so I had to scale really quickly because I couldn't do this by myself anymore so I put my head down I can do this I just started hiring people so So I hired, I had to hire out somebody to focus on one aspect of the business. So I hired a shipper, somebody who could just take the shipping off my hands. I hired in the future, in the short term for each year, I would hire a chemist. And I would hire, I had like an army of people collecting money because it took a lot of time to go collect all the money.

So I had this like small army of people that collect money. And so this is kind of how my day would go now, right, as I would answer the emails. I took care of the customer's side and I started pulling all the strings to make the rest of the stuff happen. So after I developed this process, I didn't even touch any product. The products would go right to the shipper. I would take the orders and I never saw a product. was all the orders came in I collected the money distributed the money where I need to go and I just pulled the strengths and made everything work but I dealt

with the people because I was the best I'm the best that nobody can run this company like the founder or nobody can deal with customers the way I can so after I developed this you know this and the idea was the compartmentalize the system right so I had this grander vision of being a little compartmentalize this, so everybody does their individual jobs, but nobody knows each other, right? So in case in the future, if something happens and one aspect of the business gets taken down, nobody knows each other, so they couldn't even tell each other if they want. And that was kind of the concept I started and tried to build in the beginning.

Everybody knew each other, but I, but I, you know, in the future, I actually took care of that and I started hiring out the positions in different states. I got to where, at one point I had had five shippers, five chemists, and all throughout the United States, all in different states, and each person had their job, and they didn't know anybody else. And I started to develop that here. Okay, so now I'm at the point where I start to implement some aspects of this business that really took it to, you know, heights that, you know, almost made this, actually. exponentially even more lucrative.

And I started to, this thing's made sense to me. And I started to, I just started making these moves that really worked. It made sense to me. When I finally went to prison, I was able to start reading voraciously. And I read only books that would help me for my future.

So I read books on biographies of entrepreneurs, some of the greatest entrepreneurs over time. I read just any books about business. I read MBA textbooks, just anything that would help. And I started to learn that I was actually implementing some pretty advanced business tactics. And I didn't really realize it at the time. I didn't have a name to put to it or it didn't really realize what I'd do. It just kind of made sense that I need to do some of these things.

So the first one aspect of this was there's a concept of Nassim Taylor wrote a book called Anti-Fragile. And what that meant was that when you set up a system that's fragile, it's all dependent on one thing. And if you're dependent on this one thing and something happens this one thing, well, then you're crushed in whatever you're doing, whatever system you have is over. So you have to build a, what are you saying is you have to build a robust system. You have to build yourself optionality. You have to have redundancies in order to give yourself outs in case what he would call them black swan events would occur. You have redundancies and optionality to get around these black swan events, something that could be very bad or even possibly very good. Or you have to put yourself in a position to have positive black salons, which is something that just yields really good results.

So one of the ways to do this, and then antifragile means that you actually build something, build a system that actually gets better with stress. So now you have a situation where you have a fragile situation, which if one thing, you know, goes wrong, then your whole system is gone, your whole business is gone. but if you build a robust enough system in an anti-fragile way, if something bad happens, it actually turns into something positive. And this is what I did, and I didn't really realize it was going to work out this. It made sense to me what to do, but the way it turned out was sort of serendipitous. But it worked out exactly how he explained this, anti-fragile. I became the opposite of fragile.

When something went wrong, I got stronger. And I did this a few times, and I'll explain exactly how this happened now. So I had this Chinese source. There was probably one of the better sources in the world at the time, and I had these rock-bottom prices. But this guy was getting a little flaky. He would disappear for like a month at a time sometimes. And, you know, that was pretty scary because my whole business was modeled on this guy getting me product. And if I couldn't get those products, then I couldn't, then I had no business.

So I realized that I needed optionality or I needed a contingency in case this guy disappears, which, you know, he had done here and there. So, so I started looking at other brands to buy, right? And I started, so I, you know, I found people were sourcing other brand names. I had one of the bigger brand names. But the prices were too high. There was no way that... One of my things was that I had one of the lowest costs.

I had quality products for the lowest price. And I would have to raise my prices. That would destroy my whole client base of the reason why people came to me. So I just couldn't do that. So at this time, I think it's important to understand that we understood or I understood that we were, you know, we were doing this national business, but I knew that that was all anonymous and the reason we were, um, one of the reasons, main reasons we would get caught is because of our, because of the local, because some local cop wanted to be a

cowboy and, and if local people talked, the cops could hear and a local cop could want to be a cowboy and bust us. And that was, I think, where we were most susceptible. So I made sure, I went over and reiterated to everybody that if you talk, you're going to get us caught. And everybody did a good job of being quiet. So nobody knew what we were doing. And we were bringing a significant amount of money into this small city. So it was difficult to hide the fact that all these guys had, you know, all my employees and myself had quite a bit of money. And we were able to keep pretty quiet. So nobody really knew what we're doing except for us. That's relevant because so the rest of the steroid dealers in the local city, like we all knew each other, we're all

friends. And if we were doing something big, one of these guys should have found out, but they didn't because we did a good job of keeping our mouth shut. So I knew that one of these steroid dealers had been making his own products for a while. And people had told me about, hey, have you ever tried Caleb stuff? But it was like, so he made these vials and it was, they didn't have labels on them. And, and I, but I remember people telling me it was cheap and everybody who did it, it was really good. You know, it was really potent, really good, worked really well. Everybody was happy with it and the price was below what I could do. And I started to do some research. I didn't really understand making your own products. So I started

do some research. And I learned that how, then I started to learn how cheap it was to make it yourself. It's really cheap. So, I mean, at the time you couldn't find out now, you could actually probably just Google how to make this stuff. But at the time, there was no information on it. But he had figured it out. So I was a biochemist, but I still didn't know how to do it. I didn't have a recipe. I didn't know. You couldn't find any information about it. He had figured it out. So, um, so my plan was that, uh, I have to, that, again, he made this stuff it had no label, uh, uh, you know, the, as I said before, the ethos of the time was that if you, the only thing that kept him, prevented him from being able to out class, or, you know,

out monopolize the whole area was that most people didn't trust anything that didn't, wasn't a name brand, as I had stated. That wasn't a name brand and he had this stuff with no label. Nobody wanted to trust that. But the few people who did take it said it was phenomenal and it was really cheap. So a lot of people bought from him, but I was stable because it wasn't named brand, he wasn't able to really take off. So I started to realize that, okay, what we have to do is professionalize that operation. And, you know, like I remember, I always had in the back of my head. I was mad that he was able to do something that could undercut me. And, you know, it may only be a matter of time before that, you know, that that, you know,

takes my local game down at least. And I had to figure out how to deal with that, like, or how to, what to do about that. And I couldn't, like, he was, his product cost was so much less than mine that I couldn't undercut him. And, and so, you know, it started to slowly become clear that the answer is not to fight him and try to, like, for instance, when, when another startup company comes and offers something that competes with anything with Microsoft, it was Microsoft do. Well, they just buy them out and actually, you know, partner with the company and to make the company part of their own network, right?

So I started to think about, well, this is what the big guys do. they just, you know, they make the competitor one of their own. And that seemed like the route to go. So I set up, we had happened to hung out with him the weekend before. So I knew, okay, I know where he goes. I had one of my friends call him and say that, hey, we had fun last week. Let's go do this again next week. So we're going to go meet him out at a bar.

And I set up this whole speech. I had this whole thing kind of prepared. And I went and grabbed the weeks' worth of money that I collected all of my Western Union rappers that had people drop me off all the money. I kept them in the Western Union rappers because I wanted to show them how much money we made. So I put that as a prop in my car. I got like $30,000 and I have that in my car. It was the same amount of money as Gene had. I didn't even think about that.

So I go to the bar, I'm nervous because if this doesn't work, I don't have another plan. This has to work, or I don't know what I'm going to do. You know, this source is getting flaky. I can't do this. This is the only thing. This is the thing that I know will work the best if I can make this partnership. And if it doesn't work, I don't know where everything's going to go. So I have to land this.

And I'm nervous. So I tell him, hey, you know, sometime at the night, let's, I want to talk to you. So it's too loud in here. We have to go out to my car to where I had the money. So he's like, okay, yeah, let's go right now. I wanted some more time to go over this in my head, but I can't say, hey, never mind now. Okay, kind of slam my drink, give myself some courage, and go out. to my car. I still remember I just started to just unleash exactly what happened. I know this

is going to sound weird, but hear me out, listen to me. Because again, he didn't know what was happening to us or exactly the, you know, the behemoth that was being created right in his backyard. And this was his realm too. So when I started to explain what was happening, I showed him to my ass and I just picked us up this week. Look what's happening. this is something big I think you know if we partner let's let's do this together let's make a brand let's I want to make this brand that's the term I use I want to make this brand household name we're gonna be a household name I with your help here's the kind of money you can make I set it up so he would make these vials I

would pay him $10 a vial but he could make like 300 a day probably so you know he could make $3,000 a day there was There's no other opportunities. He was already, you know, selling stuff, so he wasn't averse to that. There's really no reason to say no, but I was just still nervous. I still remember, like, I still remember his mouth just dropped open. Couldn't believe what he was hearing, and he didn't say a word. He couldn't, nothing could come out of the mouth.

So finally, when I ended, what do you say? Do you want to, do you want a partner and make something that the world recognizes? That's exactly what I said. And he just goes, yeah. Okay, so I'll buy everything. I'm going to get you set up. He had the powder source. He had the, you know, good powder sources already picked out from when, because he was doing it.

So I just gave him like $15,000 and I said, okay, get started. Buy the powders, buy everything you need. Get this going and, you know, get me some vials as soon as you can. So sure enough, like a not too, ah, it was only like a week later, he started producing these vials. And we had these little 20-millimeter vials. I created a label, I didn't do it, I had somebody else create a label for it, and we called it Matrix, Matrix Labs, and if you look up Matrix Labs today, it will still, you can still see all the positive reviews for it, and, you know, it was a pretty big brand. So, so the economics of this were, so I was, this British dragon, I was buying, I was buying, for, I had 25 milliliter vials and I was buying for $50.

I was selling them for 125. So my profit margin was 250%. With the stuff I was making, this is, and that doesn't include shipping costs, right? So it was actually, after shipping, it was a little worse, but not much. So when I broke down the 20 miller of vials, the cost of the vial vial, including the shipping, including paying the chemist, and including paying everybody. Everything they had to do with making it was $20 for a $20 million. So now, so my product cost was halved and my, and I charged $100 for this, and my profit margin increased

to 400%. So the economics of it just, you know, absolutely made. sense. So when I started putting this, I had my list of British Dragon products and I introduced the Matrix products. Again, the zeitgeist at the time, nobody wanted to deal with a brand they didn't recognize or a seller that they didn't recognize. So I thought it was going to take a long time for people, you know, people very sporadically moved from the British drag into the Matrix products, but the Matrix products were stronger and cheaper.

They were more important and cheaper. They're better quality, cheaper. But I still, I didn't think that transition was going to have. So it turned out, though, that the brand was me. I had instilled the trust. Black market buyers are some of the, as I said, they can be some of the most, just trustful, hateful, people full of animus, derogatory people out there.

But once you earn their trust, they can also be something the most loyal. So whatever I had, I was the brand. So whatever I put in front of them, they would buy. And I didn't realize it at the time. So this transition from my British dragon to the Matrix was seamless. And everybody immediately, almost immediately, just about everybody, moved over to the Matrix and started using it. And then the quality, we made it a little strong on purpose so that it was really potent. And the quality, then everybody started posting about, everybody started using it right away,

and everybody started posting on all the forums, how great and how Matrix is fire and the stuff is more potent than anything I've ever done. I got that all the time. Posted all over the forums, not only this forum, but every forum throughout the steroid world was writing. about Matrix. I even recently had a guy when I was explaining all of this. I recently had a guy from Australia who said, I'm from Australia and I heard a Matrix back in the deck. So even people in other countries heard about this stuff,

just posted all over these forums. So the fact that our Matrix was fire drove more people. So now we're just, we just keep expanding. And sure enough, Sure enough, if, I mean, I'm talking like a month later, if that Chinese source didn't just disappear. And he was gone, he just disappeared out of nowhere, just couldn't get a hold of him. He was done. But it turns out it didn't matter because now I had something that was more potent.

Economically, I was making more money off of it. Profit margins were higher. People liked it better. And it turned out it didn't even matter. And so that, so now in trying to create a robust system and trying to avoid, you know, avoid, you know, this fragility that had by only having this one source, meaty source, this brings it around, wraps it around to what it was anti-fragile about this, is I created something stronger. Now, everybody was,

the thing I created to avoid the fragility, the stress came to my system, which knocked out this source of income, but everybody went to this that made me, the matrix that made me stronger. It was more lucrative. Plus it was because it was more potent, it brought, it drove in more people. So we got stronger from having the adversity of, from the stress of losing the British Dragon Source. We got even stronger. So that's anti-fragile, right?

I didn't really know, it made sense to me. I had to do that, but I didn't, now I can put an advanced business concept to it, but that's what we did. And again, the money is just coming in more and more. So in order to absolutely ensure quality, again, there was a, slight a bit amount of fragility just because we only had one powder source so I wanted to change that again building a more robust system so when you get that as big as we were the Chinese powder sources come to you and they're trying to sell

you I was doing like $200,000 a $200,000 every year probably every year so maybe it's a little more than that $300,000 every year with with this powder source So other, you know, and other, other powder sources just come to me. So, and I must have got like 50 to 70 Chinese powder sources trying to sell me. So, and I, you know, I had learned that. You just listened to everybody. Okay, what do you got? What do you have to offer?

So, I took samples from all of them. Now, at this time, I had all these samples from 50 different sources. Oh, at this time, you couldn't test a vial of, like, I couldn't send it way to a lab and test something for potency, like what we were, what we had for potency. Nowadays, you can do that, but at this time, you couldn't do that. It wasn't an option. So what we had to do to make sure everything was potent, I had all these sources, but I'm not going to just trust them. You know, I have a brand to protect. So I, what I did is I got my, I crowdsourced, my own client base. I used them to help me. And I told them, you know,

I want you to help me test products so I can make sure that we have the best quality products. So I would give a lot of my guys a discount for cleaning out their receptors. I would send them some of this stuff. Like we'd make it and test it on ourselves first. And then, you know, everything was fine. So we'd send clients to these tests because there's too many for us to do this. So we'd send the clients and tell them to clean out their receptors and do this much. this known amount every week or whatever or every few days or whatever it was and we knew how much

that amount should raise your blood levels to be quality right so and then we would pay them to go get a blood test after a certain amount of time your blood levels should be this if it's quality and we were able to do this in the order of you know I had an army of my own clients you know working to help me do quality control nobody else was doing this, an entire world. Nobody was doing this. So now I had all these 50 sources and I had the qualities that I could match and I broke it down to the top three of them that were most consistently, the most, the highest potency, best quality. And now we're talking about that I have not only, you know, because of the system we put in place, I have not only the best

I have, you know, absolutely the best quality of any other, any other steroids in the world, in the entire world, not just the United States, but I have the most potent and highest quality steroids in the world because of all this quality control testing we did. So this, again, drove more and more because now it's, the quality is even better. Now people are really posting and it's all over everywhere that this matrix is fire. And people started coming to us and it's like, I've read so much about this matrix. I have to try it. At this point, I'm running into a major problem.

I'm making too much money. It's a stupid, stupid fucking problem I have, but it is a problem. I have like an army of people who are collecting Western unions. point I had even gotten what's called these green dot cards or there's similar cards from different companies essentially what green dot cards are is you can they're reloadable credit cards and you can buy these reload packs right these reload packs have codes on them and you can buy them you could be in California buy this reload pack and you scratch off this thing and you know you pay for it

however much money you want to put on it you pay for it at the counter of this of the CVS or whatever and you scratch off you get this code and you can use this code to reload this. So somebody could just give me the code. I have a reloadable credit card. I go under the website, put this code in it, and put it in the number of the card. I wanted to load, and boom, it loads that credit card. It's an anonymous way to collect money.

So this was another way we were collecting money. It was one of the only ways we were able to collect as much money as we were to this point. However, the business has grown to such an extent that it's still too much. I've personally got like 30 of these cards from, I used to just pay people 100 bucks to just give me a card. All they had to do is go on the website, fill this out, and it shows up to their door, then they just give me the card. And I also had an army of people who had like five or six of these cards themselves, and I would load their cards and pay them 6% and just come bring me the money. But you can only load so much money on these cards, and you can only take so much out of the bank. but what you could do is you could spend almost unlimited amount on credit because

theoretically that's traceable however you know if you're just spending a few hundred dollars here and there it's it's not that trades or paid attention to so but I had like 30 of these cards and I had you know thousands of dollars on each one of the five to ten thousand dollars on each one and but but I could only load some watch on them or or they would think they would actually shut these cards down, or if you pulled too much money out of the cash out of the ATM, they would think there was something fraudulent going on, and they would shut them down, and it cost us a lot of pain

and lost some money, trying to figure out, because they don't tell you exactly how much you can load on. You have to figure that out yourself. This just became a pain, but we eventually developed the system too. We knew exactly how much we could load and take out of these cards, but, you know, I was paying for everything. I was almost finding ways to spend money to get money off these cards

so I could make room for more. I had to use these cards to pay for everything. So in the Western Unions, but it was still too much, too much money. We couldn't, I couldn't fit at all in these cards. It was a very serious problem because we were going to have to slow down business because there's too much money coming in. We couldn't collect it all.

It became a major, major problem. So whenever I have a problem like this, I would go to the gym, you know, sit on this problem, and I could always figure it out at the gym. You know, what tends to happen is when you think really, hard when you're researching or studying or thinking really hard, your brain sends get foggy or fuzzy and what it is is neuro your brain's creating all these neurotransmitters to have these synapse firings. And the neurotransmitters get a little too plentiful. You kind of start having confusing signals and that's what kind of causes the brain fog. Well, using motor function

also uses these neurotransmitters and you're able to clear your head through intense exercise and it also produces, exercise produces other endorphins that help and your head gets cleared. And you can usually think better when you're working out. So I would always be able to solve my problems with the gym. I went to the gym, get like three quarters of the way through my workout, and boom, like a moment of clarity. It just hit me how to do this. So I hurry up and finished my workout. I got home.

I started implementing this plan. So what was happening is I was taking all this money from the customers, from each customer, and it was coming to me. And then I was doling it out to where it needed to go. And that was the problem. the money coming to me, I couldn't collect enough of it. And a lot of it had to go out to other places, the suppliers, my employees, you know, those are the two major things, my employees and suppliers. So I thought, well, it's coming to me going out.

Why don't I just take myself out as the middleman and funnel the money exactly to where it needs to go, the end result? So a lot of that was we had powder suppliers, and at this time, the Chinese supplier was still in place. So I had the Chinese British Dragon supplier and our powder suppliers. So I went and I asked them, and I almost, like at a point I had to actually demand this, but they were actually fine with it. As I said, can I? Because these Chinese, I always paid them in Western Union, and they always had different names. There was an endless supply of Chinese names, people ready to pick up money, and especially, for my Chinese supplier, the British Dragon, most of the people around the world that he

was serving only about a few hundred dollars a worth of things. So I knew that a few hundred dollar payments would be fine for him. So I asked, can I send my client payments directly to him and I'd build up an account and just whenever I needed to order, I'd order and it would come out of the account I was building. He said right away, sure, yeah, yeah, every client's saying. Here's a bunch of Western Union names. Give them out to all your clients. And the same thing happened to the powder suppliers. They didn't have a problem in this at all.

So now, and then also I made out my employees get Western Union, or I mean, these green dot cards or whatever the companies were like. So now I could have my clients pay directly to my employees. And so now what I did is I funnel all the money from my clients directly to where it needed to go. and all the money that I needed that I collected myself on my cards was all profit of my personal profit. So that was, I mean, I can't overstate how important that was because it, like, we were almost going to have to shut down for a little bit to deal with the money issue. And that completely solved it. As simple as that may seem, it didn't, it wasn't. an obvious at first but coming up with that just absolutely took a ton of stress off the

business so um now everything is now we're allowed to just keep growing right like for a while we're like you know we can't we can't grow i was going to have to raise the minimum price to drop down my client base or the minimum order so i was dropped down my client base and that was just going to affect revenue and people get mad about that so it kind of affects the brand Okay, so now, again, you know, that this allows us just keep expanding exponentially. Like, you know, we're going into, you know, making $500,000 a year, not a year, a week. You know, millions, millions of dollars a year at this point, and it just keeps growing. So now we'll go to the first major crisis.

Okay, so I got to the point where I wanted to, you know, be able, I had all this money coming in and I wasn't able to have any time to spend it. I was working 12 hour days. I think by this point I probably quit the emergency room. Um, part of me was trying to hold on to that to remain some sort of legitimacy, but I couldn't work and do all the work I had to do for this business and, uh, uh, I just quit that emergency. I didn't, I actually didn't quit. I just kept giving all my shifts away, uh, because people wanted extra shifts and I just kept giving them all away until they stopped putting me on the, on the, uh, schedule. So, um, so I, uh, I ended up teaching. one of my shipper.

So to tell this story, it's important to know the shipper, the shipper and the psyche behind all that. So I had, the first original shipper I had became an Adderall addict and he couldn't even think, he couldn't

think straight. So his job was I would take in all the orders. People would come in to order, hey, I want this. I would send him some payments information, to ask them how they wanted to pay, send them the payment information. They would come back to me with the payment. I would collect the payment and put the shipping order on an email and I would line all the orders up. You know, they'd usually be, I don't know, in the beginning it was like 10 a day, then 20, 30, 40, 50 a day. And I would line them all up on this email and then send like about 11 to 12 o'clock at night. I would send the email and then the shipper had till then

next day, a post office close. He had to get the orders there, the packed orders that before the clothes, that way people would get their products in two or three days. So this guy was so strung out on Adderall. He couldn't even think straight. He freaking Adderalled himself retarded. And so his job was, here's all the list of, here's the shipping address and what he needs to put in the box. And all the stuff that he needs to put in the box is here. And he just has to pick the correct stuff out and put them in this box, put the address on it, and take it to the post office. And this became an impossible feat to get correct. So he started just sending the wrong orders. All the stuff wouldn't be there. That happened a lot. Sometimes

he'd send the same order twice. It was freaking nuts. He was just out of control. So I had to get a new shipper. So now I can't I can't put taking resumes and go to indeed.com and and try to get the best employees. I have to I have a minimal pool of available people that I have to work with. So I found I had this one guy that I knew that was actually begging me for some work. This guy was this guy was a like him and I became friends. We actually became friends. I did a brief stint in a long,

it was actually a long term, six-month stint in a rehab. And he was, I met him there. And we figured out we were both from the same area. You know, we both were in the drug game. And he felt like we were equals. And we became friends kind of as equals, although he felt he was more alpha male than I was.

So he, you know, the dynamic of the relationship, And whatever, I was just like, you know, you could tell him he was the type of guy who liked to control stuff. So that's the dynamic we met at. That's the dynamic we were friends. So when he was asking me for work, because he's starting to realize that I have something going on here. And the dynamic change, because now I'm way up here, I'm successful. I have a ton of responsibility. Thousands of people are depending on me to do this. And I have a lot of responsibility.

And now I'm an alpha male. And I dictate to everybody what needs to happen. There's no questioning that because I built this empire and I know how to run it, which was true. So he comes into the business and at first he does a better job. There's no question about that. He was able to put the correct shit in the box and send it. And he got it out on time. This other guy sometimes took dazed to send it and he got yelled out a lot.

And he eventually got fired. So this guy, like over time, the job is very demanding. He would get kind of stressed out. But so another thing I want to make clear is that, is that what, you know, what money can do to a social structure. So a lot of people says, well, money changes people. And that's true. It does. When you're making money in a situation like I was money, you know, money is an arbitrary construct, right?

The numbers in your bank account are the cash is an arbitrary construct. It's just manmade. Like, what does it mean? Well, it doesn't, it's actually worthless, but it represents our value to society, right? So when we, somebody has a lot of money, people see that as your value to society and money is a panacea for all your troubles. It's an easy fix to all problems, right? That's what a panacea is, easy, you know, something that can fix everything. So, and when people see that, you get a lot of respect and admiration.

and it can drive mania. Mania is when your dopamine, oxytocin, serotonin, endorphins are too high. People are manic-depressive or manic, they're too high one minute, then depressed, you're too low, so when you're manic, you think you're kind of megalomaniacal, you're, you think you're almost godlike, nobody should challenge you, no should be questioned you, so this is the state of mania, and money can do that because everybody is respecting, admiring you, especially when you're running a large business and a lot of people depend on you, they become sick of vanish and servile and all that respect builds up that, that dopamine, octetocin, serotonin

response, and you can become manic, which certainly happened to me at some point, but I was able to pretty quickly rein it in and understand to keep that in check. I say that because But so that's how people can change with money, right? That is one aspect. The other thing that changes with money, which is much less understood, is the people around you, around the money, will also change. And that is because, like, this shipper and I, we were friends at this level.

We were kind of equal social or maybe he thought he was a little higher than me. when I rose up here, the dynamic that made ourselves friends that made him like me that created that connection between us changed. And that changes the person who is left behind as well. It makes them angry at the new situation and they don't really realize that they're jealous and jealousy runs rampant and I lost a lot of friends through jealousy. People started robbing me, my own friends. This jealousy runs rampant and the people change too. So I want to iterate that that it's not that money changes people, the people who are left behind also change drastically. So this dynamic shift, this guy, because he became a good shipper,

and all he did was do his job correctly instead of terribly, he started feeling that he was entitled to half of my business, which was ludicrous. But in his mind, his sense of entitlement told him that this isn't how drug empire, work, the people involved, they all own it together. And I started this whole thing, this thing. He came into this thing after this was a multi-million dollar company. There's no way. The dynamic change, he started to get angry and, you know, what I had done, you know,

so while all this is happening, I kind of realized there's something going on, but I don't think it will spiral that far out of control. I had taught him, so I could, you know, go on vacation once a while. him out to answer all the emails and to take care of the business while I was gone. Now, when I would come back, uh, there would be some fires, but the business was able to run suitably and I would come back, put out the fires and everything would be fine. Um, so I was able to go on vacation every like six weeks or so. And, and that was a welcome reprieve. So this one time I went to Cancun, I went to spring break because I had never been to spring break before and I finally could afford it and I wanted to go enjoy it.

So we went and we researched and we went to the biggest party, a college party hotel stayed right there and it was crazy. All these college kids going nuts around is it. It was pretty fun. And we went, you know, VIP tables with all the bars. It was a lot more fun because you could endure. joy it with, you know, a lot of money this time. And I took, you know, one of my friends that was actually in college. He was like 26. I was 32. And he was in medical school, knew him from the, but we had a blast. So anyways, and another friend came to, actually. So we got really drunk

one night and we, during that night, we decided to, why end the party now, after this eight days we're going to spend in Cameroon, let's get tickets to Miami. So after, after, After our Cancun vacation, we rerouted our tickets instead of going home to Miami. We paid for that. And we were so drunk that when we woke up the next day, nobody remembered doing that. And we just all of a sudden saw these, on our phone, these notices that our planes were changed or plane. And we're like, what happened? Who changed our flights today?

Well, we had decided to do that and we didn't remember. So it was like, I guess we're going to Miami. So we got into Miami. I flew into Miami and they had the, because we're coming from out of the country, they had the border security and they pick random people out, and not even random, suspicious looking people out to search all their stuff. So I'm going and I had just partied like crazy in Cancourt every day drinking way too much. and probably other stuff too, I don't even remember.

But I come in and I'm not in great shape, but I'm sweating, and I'm kind of shaking because I had drank so much, probably done some substances. And so they pick me right out. You're shaking and you're blanche white. Come over here. They thought I was scared because I was running drugs into the country. Which was not true.

I wasn't stupid, and I made sure I didn't have anything on me. I actually went through all my stuff with the intent of making sure there was nothing wrong in my luggage. So I knew I was good, so I kind of had fun with it. The guy told me, why are you sweating and why are you shaking? And I said, well, because I drink enough to kill an elephant. Every single day I was there. And I'm sweating and shaking because of that. And he said, well, it looks like you're about to follow.

I said, I might. But that's okay. I'll get back up. I've done this before. And so they ended up like. Check it all my stuff. Of course they didn't find anything and they didn't want to let me go just because they were sure they had me just because of the way I looked. And too bad you got to let me go.

I don't have anything. We get into Miami and I actually have an appointment. One of my friends from Miami, I told him he was coming to the town and he said he wanted me to meet his boss. His boss was interested in me investing in a new company was starting. And his boss was a month millionaire. And so in this business, I checked out some, like a prospectus of this business, and it looked good. And I was ready to invest $100,000 into this business. And I had that meeting that day.

And I think, like, what I did is I ran out of money because I spent so much of it. So I asked him to load my cards that I had on me with more money. I said, start loading my cards. And then, you know, he didn't get back to me right away. So I started going into the emails and pulling out cards out of the, you know, pulling out payments out of the emails that came into the work email. And I started loading my own cards. And this actually kind of made him mad because of what he was planning, which I didn't know.

So as soon as I told him, I took some more money, but load me up some more money. All of a sudden I got this email, or this text. They said, I was going to try to wait until you got back for this, but here we go. I went to drop stuff off the other day, and somebody was taking pictures of me. The cops are after us, they're onto us, I'm leaving. Maybe I'll talk to you sometime. I'm getting out of the state. So now, you know, I panic.

My heart drops. The business is over. They're on to us. I have this meeting, I got to cancel with this multi-millionaire and immediately fly home. I get home, I can't, they're watching us, so I'm scared to get on the emails. I start to learn that nobody had, from the beginning, he didn't even answer an email from when I left right away. So it started to become clear that this had almost been planned. And I started investigating because things didn't start to make sense.

But now we're talking about it's been a month and I haven't talked to anybody because I'm scared to sign on. I think that maybe they're watching the work email. People have gone without orders for like two weeks. It's really bad for business. Like now people are starting to scream this looks like a scam. Terrible. I thought the business is over. This is done.

It's it. I'm incredibly depressed. But something's looking strange. I'm really looking into this, and I started to get motivated to figure this out. And I start to realize, I start to uncover things, little details that this guy had been planning this the whole time. Nobody was watching. He just stole about $50,000 or $60,000 for me, took off because of his sense of entitlement. And one of the chemists left at the same time, too.

So I thought they were in cahoots, and they left. And it kind of turns out that, although it was strange, I don't know exactly what happened to this day. But I ended up hiring the chemist back later, but this guy took off, he stole the money, took off because of his sense of entitlement, and no cops were actually watching, and this was a robbery. So I got back to everybody. I hired the other Adderall Shipper back. We got back to everybody. I apologize sincerely. I got everybody their products. Plus I gave them from me. some extra stuff. I got everybody. He got rolling again.

You know, everybody wasn't super happy, but in the end, it actually worked out to my favor because of the way I got back to everybody. It became like, well, look at, and I was transparent to everybody. I told him what happened. My shipper robbed me. He left. He took everything. I didn't realize this was happening.

And everybody saw it as look at, you know, actually look at this guy. He had this kind of adversity. He still got back to everybody instead of just stopping and just, you know, quitting why he's already way ahead. He got back to everybody and paid people back more. And it actually worked out in my favor. Like, people actually embraced it more. And I became a little bit more well-branded and trusted because even if something really bad happens, I'm still going to pull through. Again, it worked out in my favor, anti-fragile.

So that was the first. the second major crisis I had helped I so after this Adderall Sheper was working again he was still doing his Adderall things and couldn't get anything right and I was screaming on him every day and he was terrible so I had to I had to get another shipper so I had this personal assistant that I didn't tell what I did but some of my stuff like it was inevitable she just kind of started to slow the pieces together what I was doing and how I had so much money and she eventually asked to be a part of the illegal side because she wanted to make the kind

of money that she found that people were making so so so I eventually I gave chance to say okay she actually I got her going she actually did a great job and so one day so at this this is the time that when I moved to New York right or the greater New York City I moved to Jersey right on the Hudson had this the pet house overlooking Manhattan gorgeous floor to ceiling the windows gorgeous I get there spend one night there and wake up the first day there and she calls and says the post office was just called me um the one of the packages leaked they're opening it up to make sure that there's nothing hazardous now what i had is remember it my compartmentalized operation i had

chemists making my stuff i had one in georgia who shipped it to new york but we vacuum sealed everything and bubble wrapped the heck out of it and um and there's no way that i should have broken it unless somebody they must have spiked it on the ground or something So we would send these boxes of 100 vials at a time, and he probably sent three of them, so we had like 300 vials, probably worth about $30,000, and one of them broke and leaked through, and they opened this up, and they found the other packages, they found like $30,000 with the steroids. And, of course, it was going right to her house, and that was one of the mistakes I made. In the future, I learned that I had to have a clean shipping house, right?

So you have a receiving house, which then gets taken to the shipper. So if something like that happens again, the DEA can go there and it would just be clean and there'll be nothing. But they went to the shipper's house. Now, I couldn't get there because I lived near New York now and she was an upstate and there's no way I could get there. So I sent somebody to her house to help her clean out everything. They almost got everything out, but the DEA got there just in time to catch him with a little bit of shipping material. and some raw powders. One of the chemists was making stuff there, too.

But it wasn't much. So they got low-level foamy's. They would have been able to get, what's called the conditional discharge, and if they had six months of good behavior, it would have been totally off their record. No jail time, not enough. However, the guy knew this.

There was a girl and the guy, and the guy knew this, and he just didn't say anything. I bought him a lawyer. Everything was fine. But she, from being my personal assistant, knew a little too much information. They scared her by her, went through the interrogation, and they just terrified her with all this probably false information that she would never have spent a day in jail.

And she blew in the whole operation. So now at this point, they know my name. I had a lawyer on retainer. I called him. He went to find out what was going on. But it was still a local state thing. It wasn't... So I wasn't in New York.

The guy from Georgia wasn't in New York. They had no jurisdiction to go get him. They didn't have jurisdiction to go get me. They just had the two people who were arrested. Now, they didn't even spend a night in jail. They were out. And they just had these, you know, tickets for the lowest-level felony, if you get. I bought his lawyer, so we were talking about, you know, kind of talking to the lawyer about

what was going on, and the lawyer gave us the information. Well, they just don't, they don't have a lot of information. They have the testimony of one person, which you cannot arrest somebody on. And they don't have a lot of other information. They don't have jurisdiction to go anywhere. They couldn't get into our emails. It's out of the country. They couldn't get anything.

so although they originally were telling me that they wanted to talk to me and they thought they had they just didn't have anything so it just kind of like that was it they had the two people they gave them the tickets and it was going to end there and the feds were not going to pick this case up that's what the lawyer the guy's lawyer said uh the guys the lawyer said so eventually you know after this is a you know another instance where um we went months without serving anybody and I didn't want to get on the emails I was scared that they were you know somehow watching them

and we went months again without serving anybody and we just disappeared and that doesn't look good it's bad for the brand bad for the name but after a few months the guys just said

this is over let's just let's keep going like all the employees came to me and let's keep going we'll just stay out of New York this was a New York thing it died there. Stay out of New York. Let's go. Okay, I know a lot of people at this point said, ah, this is greed, you got greedy. Again, it wasn't about greed. It's about,

you drive so much passion for this thing that you created, for your baby, for your empire that you created. And there's passion for that. It's not even about anything except seeing this thing that you created, this freaking wonderful living entity survive. It wasn't about greed. So, we went again. And here we go, same thing, apologize to people. Hey, you know, just explained. I don't think I could have been as transparent this time

because it would have been bad if I told people a portion of our business got busted, but I just said there was problems. And, you know, we take care of them. And again, you know, this is almost business ending. However, we're able to overcome. and, you know, the people who didn't get their orders were sent more stuff and, you know, everything went back to normal again.

You know, I was very good with people and very good at exploiting people and we just, everything went, yeah, everything went back to normal and got even stronger. So as it would turn out, like this is the event, so at this time, about this time, they're creating a specific special task force as being created to deal with online steroids. And this is called Operation Cyberjuice. And without us knowing, and it took months and months to happen, probably six months later, but this special task force had been created and did pick this case up. And we didn't know that.

However, we went two more years before anything and before anything happened. Just growing and growing and doing more. At this time, I was able, shortly after we're doing well again, still producing the same quality stuff. Everything's going. I was able to buy a Jaguar. I leased it. At least a brand new $130,000 Jaguar F-type.

this is what I got it the penthouse everything was going great extravagant vacations I went all over the country I went to different places in the world London Ireland

Cancun we already went to I used to love Vegas and Miami lots of trips to see floor seats at NBA games some of the favorite players favorite teams We would go So one time I took this bachelor party

To Vegas Just because, you know This was one of my friends I wanted to show everybody a night They remember So I took them all to Vegas This was probably cost me about a $70,000 weekend No gambling

We're just I bought the top I bought about a $20,000 Owners table at Hakeasan When Tiesto It was opening night, the owner's table, about $20,000. I just freaking had the blast.

It was such a good time. You know, just stuff like this, you know, showing friends good times. If anybody needed, you know, anybody was having problems, somebody needed their rent pay. So there's problems we always take care of it, helping people. Like I said, money just makes it easy to help people. At this point, I had started to rein in my mania, and it was more about creating value and helping people. and I you know taking people who didn't have a lot of money take them to nice dinners and you know just showing everybody a good time and I mean the money

was just coming in so fast like it couldn't I had I also started real estate I had four houses that I rented out I think it was just going really well so I go to Vegas I get back from Vegas. One day, this was September, September 23rd, 2015. Get back from Vegas, I was hungover. Couldn't really move for a few days. And, you know, one of these days, this was a Wednesday, 23rd, at 5 o'clock in the morning, all of a sudden I heard just pounding on the door. And I wake up and, like, I don't even really pull. leave I heard what I did and my girlfriend got up and like is somebody not really

knock at the door she's like I don't know if she goes out there the dogs go crazy start barking go out to the living room kind of slowly put my shirt on and putting some clothes on and sure enough pounding on the door again now I'm getting mad like who's banging on my door at 5 o'clock in the morning like I'm getting mad so I got my clothes on now I'm walking out there with a purpose walk through this living room again floor to ceiling windows the Manhattan, it's still probably dark out, so or the sun's just glitting over on all of the overlooking Manhattan, the building was gorgeous, and come around the corner, my girlfriend's coming from the door, and she said that they're covering the people, I can't see who it is.

I'm like, well, why don't you answer? Now I'm mad. Now I'm going to, I'm about to go find out who this is. I'm going to, I'll go figure this out. I'm going to tell this person exactly why they shouldn't be knocking on it at 5 o'clock in the morning. So I run to the door I'm freaking swing it wide open I'm about ready to scream at somebody and it is about 15 federal officers in a bulletproof vest with guns pointed at mad and so the the first guy was the the post the postmaster the post office federal security who originally found that package that leaked that two years ago. And he's the one who pushed to get me a part of

Operation Cyber Juice because he found this packages and he made it his personal, he was a cowboy, made his personal vendetta to that. And he told me about it, told me how he pushed to get this to happen. So he put his hand on the door and he just says, okay. And that okay was kind of for the people behind him because I'm not violent I'm any guns nothing like that so he was saying okay this is okay he's not he's not gonna resist but it was also the me to say okay we got you so they take us to put us in handcuffs they put us on a stool this lady comes up and says do you know why we're here I said no I don't I have no idea where you're here and I knew where they were there so

the only something that for some reason gave me a little bit of solace was the FBI agents who were there, some of them started searching. The FBI agents, more than one, couldn't help themselves, but coming up to me and hey, this is an awesome house.

This is an awesome apartment. Amazing. Thanks. Thanks. It's not mine anymore. Okay. So I went to, I didn't even spend the night in jail

I went and I got put immediately on pre-trial release. It took two years from me to actually go to prison. I got six and a half years. I think that's about it.