Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - Teenage Mastermind Builds a Million Dollar Ponzi Scheme | Ian Bick

Episode Date: December 21, 2023

Teenage Mastermind Builds a Million Dollar Ponzi Scheme | Ian Bick

This was all legitimate, maybe not, you know, ethical. I was so confident that the shows would make money that I'm just promising their initial investment. What are you 17? How do you scrape together 40 grand? There's like 12 investors, and I would say eight of them are kids. I was named top 10 entrepreneurs in Connecticut. At 18 years old, they handed me a target letter. You're officially under investigation.

But why are fraud money laundering, bank fraud? Are you starting to realize this is super serious? You were raised in Connecticut? Yeah, right down the road in Danbury. Okay. I was born in New York City, and then we moved to my family's summer home where we grew up. They renovated it for my dad's summer home and then grew up there on the Lake Jewish community called Lake Wabika. Okay.

So, I mean, if it was a summer home, why were you raised there? It was my dad's summer home, and he renovated it to move our family there. Oh, okay, okay. You went to high school here, and how did you, like, were you a good student? It was a mix and match. elementary school, I was kind of troubled. Like, I was bullied a lot for my weight and like how I acted and stuff. And so I got into trouble, wasn't a great student that I went to private school, Montessori school, then went to public middle school for seventh and eighth grade,

bad grades. I was a kid that failed gym class for not wearing shorts, changing for gym into shorts, then got to high school where first two years I was very focused because I wanted to become an FBI agent. So I was extremely dedicated to getting good grades, top of my class. I was like seven or eighth in the class of like 700 AP classes, AP literature, AP US history, everything like that. Okay. What, I mean, what, what, what changed? Like how, how did that change? How did I become a fraudster? I don't know. I'm saying, like, how, like, how did that evolve? Like, were you a kid that was not at that time popular? I know you said you buckled down, but were you, not popular and because I know obviously you got into um putting together parties and you know

eventually events so how did that evolve and why do you think that evolved so most kids my age like they did drugs or they got hooked on drugs they like liquor this and that me i never got into all that but i was addicted to attention i loved attention i loved to be the center of attention I was a guy that played Milton Borough dressed as a woman during theater camp because I was a theater nerd. And I loved to be center stage. And, you know, that just, I loved detention, Crayed for it, wanted the intention from all the popular kids. And I think when you're bullied, you know, you just want to know why people don't like you, why you're getting picked on. You want to fit in.

Exactly. So that evolved into me throwing house parties. And these house parties weren't just normal house parties. I mean, at first they started like that, but pretty soon I'm throwing parties with three or 400 kids at my parents' house on the lake. People are taking the boats out. We have a bonfire. We have a minibar set up on the patio. We have a trampoline.

It's like it's huge. It's massive. Cars lined up and down the street. Are you charging money for them? For like a red solo cup for liquor for the night was like five bucks. My parents didn't know we were, you know, selling liquor because we're high school kids. But these were huge parties and that, you know, eloped into planning. the high school proms, homecoming, the tailgates at the games, doing all these things.

And with that, evolved a business, a party throwing business. And I started promoting parties at a local nightclub, and I would make $10,000 a night profit once a month doing these parties. So, I mean, why do you think you were, like, why did that appeal to you? I understand you're saying I was, you know, the center stage. But, I mean, did that suddenly, suddenly were you like the kid at high school that everybody knew now like everybody knows you or prior to that you weren't that kid like it was it more of just a business i think it was a mixture of everything like one when you're a sophomore or freshman

the upperclassmen don't know the freshman guys they know the freshman girls that are attractive you know but a freshman guy or softball guy is not popular right with me those parties got me in with the juniors and seniors and i became one the most popular kids in the school so when you have that attention on you and the thing with parties is that you're only as good as your last one and Everyone's only talking about you leading up to it. So by the time the party's over, you're like, no one's talking about you anymore. So you've got to get the next one set up. Right.

And it was just, you know, I never liked the parties themselves. I was not a party kid. I was shy around women. I would just be in my shell. During the parties, I was always stressing to make sure people had a good time, cleaning up the place after, making sure my parents were happy. But for me, everything was about the planning, the executing, the order. organizing and the building hype. I'm very good at building hype for something. So how does that,

I mean, okay, so you're planning the parties. How did you, at what point did you decide, hey, I can, I can move this to another level. Like you said you were, you're planning on being, uh, you're hoping to be an FBI agent of somebody, you know, or being an agent. Like, is that still in the works or did that just fall to the side? At some point, you just stopped even pursuing that. So by junior year, when I'm making serious money, that's when I'm like, fuck school. I start paying kids to do my homework and go to class for me. And like I was literally answering my phone in the middle of class, like of a business person. I'm carrying around a briefcase and wearing a suit and tie as a 16 year old to high school. And I do not give two fucks. And I'm working on my business because it's a real

business. It's making money that kids don't see at that age ever. And or what adults would ever see in one night. So I treated it like a business and everything. operated on that. And the final nail in the coffin for me to not go to college was I went to Johnson, Wales, and Miami for a weekend. They had like a program junior year. I went for two days. My parents paid for it was like a thousand bucks and you go on the tour. You sleep there. You sleep in the dorms. They brought us to the Fountain Blue Miami Hotel to show where you could get an internship. They showed us to classrooms where we'd be working on stuff because I had an interest in hospitality and event management. And what they said was, one, you're not. You're not

going to use these classrooms for the first two years you're going to be in the education building so that was a red flag for me number one and two i met with an intern that was working at the fountain blue hotel and i was like so what job did you get here when you got out and she was like well i you start at the bottom you're polishing silverware and folding napkins which at that time i already had a corporate job working at a banquet center at 16 years old and danbury so why was i going to go to college spend a hundred k and four years yeah i'd get a job for you know, 10 bucks an hour at that time. This was 2011. So I was like, I'm never going to college ever. What did your parents say? They supported it. I mean, my dad, you know, he was a former teacher and a

retired principal in New York City schools and then became an entrepreneur as a caterer. And he's just like, you know, it's not for everyone. My mom, a little bit more harder for her to deal with because she grew up in that mentality that you have to go to college. You know, she became a paralegal. You get good college you go to graduate school all this stuff but my dad was understanding but that was against the norm it's it's way more normal now but back then it was only heard about like with the big like founders that were dropping out of school like Zuckerberg or you know individuals like that it wasn't your normal high school kid that said he didn't want to go to college that wasn't normal right so all right at and that you're still in high school though yeah I was this is junior year end of

junior year when I said I'm not going well all my friends are taking the SAT they're getting their letters of where they're going, all that stuff. Me, I was full pledged. I was forming an LLC. I was building at LLC. I was getting business debit cards. I was doing all the stuff. Did the school ask you?

Who asked you to do like prom and, like, did they come to you and say, hey, can you do this? So some people did, like, they wanted me to redo their homecoming because no one goes to homecoming because it was in the cafeteria. So I turned it into a nightclub for the night, transform the cafeteria to make it. It didn't look like a cafeteria. period when I was done with it. And then I got elected vice president in my class, so I automatically planned the prom. And because of my job at this banquet center, what I did was because of my age, I was in a unique position where I went to different high schools and stole their prom

business and brought it to this new banquet center in Danbury instead of going to the older ones. So I was making good money on commission and everything like that too. Okay. So it evolved. And then at some point you started, you said you started like planning bigger events. So what happened was the teen nights, these teen parties I was doing at the local nightclub became oversaturated. Too many people start doing it. The market was way oversaturated. No one couldn't tell which one was which. Whether it was a good event, a bad event, whatever. So at that point, I get bored very easily. I wanted to take it to the next level. And the next level in my industry was concerts. And at that time, you know, we wanted to book Mac Miller. We wanted to book Big Sean.

might be a little bit above your time. Yeah, I've heard the name Big Sean, but I've no idea. Big rappers. He was a Grammy-nominated rapper, this and that. So that was the next step in my industry to get into the world of concerts. And you contacted them? Like, what did they tell you how much they wanted?

Like, how does that work? The thing about the concert industry is you can't book an act without having an act under your belt. And it's always like, how do you get that first act under your belt? I had some partners that knew some people and they were able to get Big Sean for our first event in Danbury at the college, Western Connecticut State University, two doors down from the hotel you're staying at right now at the O'Neill Center holds 5,000 people. That was like our first foray into the concert business. How many people showed up? It was a tank. It was a bust. We only had three weeks to market it. We were in over our heads. We had no idea what to do. We only had like 1,100 kids show up to this. I mean, this is where seniors in high school doing a $100,000 event, huge. caliber, you know, way out of our league, but we got that experience and we knew what to not do the next time.

Yeah, but what did Big Sean want? 40,000 for that. Those acts for those arenas at the time, like I've worked from anywhere with, you know, Chief Keefe, the chain smokers adventure club, Steve Ioki, Big Sean, Tyga, booked a bunch of different acts in the world. And they've ranged in prices from 5,000 for a night to 100,000 in a night. So how do you, you know, at what are you, 17? That time I'm 17.

How does a 17-year-old, even though I understand you're making money, how do you scrape together 40 grand? So for that first show, I wasn't an investor in it. My partners had money, rich kids from the local towns in this town, Richfield, and there was other people involved. But for future shows, we started raising money from friends and family. And I printed out this contract from legalzoom.com or rocket lawyer. And I just, like, I watched TV.

I figured, okay, an investment needs a contract. So I searched investment contract, changed the name to fit my stuff, came up with a budget in Excel, printed it out, and started showing it to people. And at that time, I had, like, friends invest $500 into my teen night so they can make money. But what I realized was, you know, I needed, like, $120,000 to do some of these shows. No one wanted to invest money. So what I did was I went back, altered the contract to say, I'll guarantee your money back. Now, I don't have any assets.

I don't have anything, but I added that line. And then all of a sudden, everyone wants to start investing. Right. And I get people for $1,000, $5,000, $10,000. And by January 2013, I'm graduating high school semester early. I'm 17 years old and I have $120,000 in a business bank account. Are you explaining any of this to your dad? Like, do you have a mentor?

Do you have anybody that you're going to and saying, hey, I downloaded a contract? Is it a big deal that I, if I, what if I guarantee their money? Like, I mean, because I mean, you cannot guarantee money. Like, you know what I'm saying? But that wasn't like a fraud thing. That was a civil thing at that point. That was me promising to pay their money back. Right.

You know, that wasn't like a guaranteed thing. This was all legitimate for the most part, you know? Right. Maybe not, you know, ethical. But it was, I mean, to promise their money back, I was so confident that the shows would make money that I'm just promising their initial investment. Well, first of all, them signing a contract with a 17-year-old

and expecting that he's going to pay you back. Like, first of you're 17. You're not, you can't sign a contract. These are other 17-year-old signing. Oh, yeah, this is ridiculous. Like, it's all, it's just not unloidoyed. It's a bunch of teenagers deal. with this and parents are giving their kids money to give to me. That's what was going on. I'd walk

here out of the high school. I'd go into a Chipotle with a contract and a briefcase and my friend would beat me with a check for five grand. It was crazy. And you've got an LLC set up with a business bank account set up. I would walk into a local bank depositing checks. I'd go in there with like a money bag and say, here you go. No one bats at eye. How do you open an LLC if you're not 18 years old? That's a hell of a question. I did it online. Oh, wow. Okay. Um, Okay, because I, you know, I wrote a book for a guy named Ephraim Devoroli. What a name. You know who I'm talking about?

No, it's a big name. He's, so Jonah Hill plays him in the movie Wardogues. So I wrote, I was in prison with Ephraim, and I wrote his memoir when we were in prison. It's called Once a Gunrunner. And anyway, I remember because his dad gave him the LSC. His dad had a shelf LLC. and gave it to him when he was like 17 years old because it had been open

because he couldn't open one himself. As a matter of fact, his dad ended up signing for the gun licenses in order to start buying guns for him because he was 17. Same thing. He was doing super well for 17. The system's just not designed

for a 17 year old to do well or to enter business. So yeah, so what happens at that point? um well the show that we had raised the money for didn't end up happening so we let our investors know we were planning a whiz califa show why why didn't happen one of our partners lied and he didn't have the um the contact the contact yeah so you're supposed to you're supposed to get who were you you supposed to get was califa and then didn't happen didn't happen so this is all legit i go the investors i have all the money but didn't but did you you have all the money oh so you didn't put up you

didn't put up any money for the venue or anything you to lose any money no we needed proof of funds according to my partner to show that we could book him okay so we have everything on hold but we haven't exchanged any money the only thing we spent is like a thousand bucks for the office that's it all legit we have all the money accounting whatever and so i go to my investors i call them all to my parents living room a bunch of kids and i explain what happened and i said listen you can keep your money in and we'll find something else to do or you could take it back about half took their money back, had about 65,000 left, 60, 65,000. I took that 60, 65,000 instead of investing it into one show, I invested it into like six or seven, spread out, figured there was less risk.

Right. And each show had the capability of bringing like 10 grand in profit if each one sold out. But these aren't big events, but these are smaller venues. No, so some smaller venues, but some were just having a piece in a big event. Like my first one was $20,000 into a show that was a hundred thousand dollars i was like a partner uh an investor okay so basically look at me as the hedge fund and i would invest into other concert related ventures all right well so it was so that was profitable and it was working no every single one of them lost money well then so at what so at what point do you tell your investors like hey bro like we i know the money i put i put your money into this venue it didn't work out you lost your money so the reason why we're sitting here today

me and you is because of one incident and that's the first concert where I put that there there was this February 2013 and um that first concert was at university of Rhode Island and I was a stakeholder in it for like 20 percent for 20 grand big name it was going to do really well electronic dance music was exploding I'm being told from the partners we invested in tickets are selling well so I'm reeling that to my investors tickets are selling well I bring my friends in a limo that night to the show. We get hotel rooms. It's a good time. We're parting with hot college girls. We're not even 18. It's a blast. I'm standing in the back of this arena, like soaking this all in, seeing how cool it looks. And one of the partners on the show comes to me and he's like, dude, we took a fucking beating

on this tonight. Like, this sucks. I'm like, what do you mean? It looks good. And I didn't know, like, in the concert business, like looks are very deceiving, you know, like, especially in those rooms. You can never really tell how many people are actually there. To break even, they needed like 2,200 tickets, and there was only like 1,100 tickets sold or 1,200 tickets. And so, at the, moral of the story is that I told my investors had already that it made money. They're having a great time. Their kids, I'm thinking to myself, okay, well, if I tell them it didn't make money now, they're going to think maybe I'm trying to fuck them because it did make money.

Or on the other end, too, I promise them at least their money back on the show. And now I'm going to look like a failure after I've already been successful. So it was an image thing and I didn't want them to not like me because they're my good friends. So I decided to lie and say that it made money. Not only did it break even, but it made money. So now that 20 grand, I only got back like 2 grand or 3 grand on it plus profits. So I'm out like 22 grand now. But I'm banking on the other concerts to work out to make it back.

No big deal. I would just take less of a profit. Everything's okay. Well, all those other shows bomb. whether a snowstorm cancels it artist doesn't show up um a one in one production company fucked me out of the money for like 20 grand investment never heard from them again all these different things series of unfortunate events and for each show i kept promising that it made money and that it broke even so now i'm in the hole for like 65 70 thousand dollars what why didn't

you like i don't know i i know exactly i want to be like yeah yeah i know how you feel like you saying like it's you can look back and think I should have done this I should have done this I should have done this I should have done this I could have avoided everything bad that's happened in my life all the pain the suffering the trauma everything all I did was at one night I told the truth that's it that's all I had to do but once that one lie started it was a domino effect and did you ever go to your parents and say hey this is what's happening I went to them when I needed money for a retainer when the federal FBI was investigating me that's not the conversation they want no my dad had meant to a lawyer like six months prior um this was like a year later because this all

happened very quickly like the feds investigated within a year because this was like this repeated itself when i raised more money like the year of 2013 i raised like 700,000 dollars by the end of 2013 i was 1.3 million dollars in debt because i was promising people a 50% interest rate of return on their money because I got into like this electronic business where I was wholesaling electronics but I found out the product was fake right so it's just this whole web and mess of lies and within a year it all like imploded so I mean at what point did you know what's this what's the scene where you realize the FBI is investigating this um so gene so what happened was December 2013 this is like a lot

11 months later, when everything fails, all my concerts, the nightclub I got, all this shit fails. Are these kids now asking for their money back? Yeah. So I was ducking them. I was lying to them. I ended up going to a lawyer in Danbury who sends a letter to all these individuals saying, um, Ian Bick's bankrupt now and, um, we're reviewing to see if you're owed any money and

this and that. And his analysis was that people would just get their principal back, not the exuberant rates of interest. Now, keep in mind, you had parents that were loaning me $50,000 expecting $75,000 back in 30 days. So what he did was he sent a letter saying, like, say you invested $50,000, right? And you got $75,000 back and then lost the $75,000. Technically, you were only out $25,000 out of pocket. First of all, that's usurage.

Like, I can't believe that a parent would, like, if you came to me and said, yeah, give me 25 and I'll give you back this. I'd be like, yeah, listen, bro, first of all, this is not going to happen. And two, like, I can't charge you that much. It's illegal for me to charge you that much interest. It's called usury. You can't charge more than... I even went to a lawyer, and he said this was all legit to get loans, and he put a statement in, you're waiving the right of usury.

My whole business model was that I want to be able to take a loan to pay off another loan, right, while my business is waiting to generate cash flow from the concerts. Now, that's what I explained to them. And I thought that was legit because you could take a loan from one bank to pay off another bank. And I had no credit, you know, I'm young. Well, little did I know. That's a fucking Ponzi scheme when you're paying one loan because the Fed looked at it as I'm taking, Matt, I want to borrow $20,000. I'll give you an interest rate and I'm paying off Peter, you know, with that $20,000.

But I'm structuring it as a loan. But in everyone's eyes, they're looking at as an investment and that's where it becomes a Ponzi scheme. So my friends get these letters saying they're not owed any money or we can't pay. this and that and they go to the local police department and now the police department's eyes are eyes are lit up that this is millions of dollars they're thinking like this is they think I'm involved with drugs because I own a nightclub they think I have real estate that think all of this well by this point you do you own it you you skip that part by this point you've actually bought it into a light nightclub right I own the business it was it was a club that went bust

within a few months my big nightclub that I became well known for would happen during the investigation so this was just like a temporary one I had gotten before but you know like in everyone fraud story like in your story and Wolf of Wall Street there is one agent or detective that has a hard on for that person right that was a case in mine and that guy was able to get it to a federal level keep in mind my dollar amount of this is less than 500,000 dollars which is a fairly small amount for an FBI investigation involving a bunch of that the investors there's like 12 investors and I would say eight of them are kids at this point but it's also kind of a small town and this is a big deal I think I was just in everyone's face and there's all this press coverage

so I was a big fish to them because I was named top 10 entrepreneurs in Connecticut at 18 years old like all of this stuff and I was just an asshole and so what happens is a few months go by this local police investigation my lawyer says it's not going anywhere whatever my lawyer than sues me for $20,000 in legal fees that he promised that was going to be free. And I get this bill and it's like I'm getting charged $450 an hour for a 30 minute phone call. Like a Zuberant rates. So he drops me. I'm like, fuck it. I don't care. I don't need a lawyer. I get a subpoena by the Department of Banking in Connecticut. And I had no idea we even had a Department of Banking. But I'm like, okay, this is my opportunity to clear everything up, make things right, you know,

just explain everything. So I go in there so prepared. have my duffel bag by myself. I have everyone's address amounts, a spreadsheet tracking every transaction bank records because they didn't have those yet because they didn't have the subpoenas for that. All they had was a subpoena for me. Business records, names, everything. And I bring it to them. And I testify for like six hours in front of these three gentlemen that were at the department of banking. They're acting like my best friend. They're like, can I get you anything? You want to eat food? You want to eat water? I'm 18. I just turned 18. where I'm, no, I'm almost 19. I'm 18 and a half. And they're like, do you need anything? Are you good? And I tell them everything. They're asking detailed questions. I give pictures, receipts, the whole nine yards. Here's everything. End of the meeting. They said, hey, there's two gentlemen that want to talk to you. Do you have any problem meeting with them? You're good. You don't need a lawyer or anything. I'm like, yeah, sure, I'll meet with them. I just met with you guys. I want to get this cleared up. They take me to a room. I wait a little bit. And then two guys with, you know, cheap suits, tan suits that don't even match their pants.

to walk in and you know I stand up and they show me their badges and it says postal inspectors and I notice they have guns on their hips who the fuck is a postal inspector I've never heard of this like you don't see them in movies or anything um they're basically an FBI that's basically an FBI agent exactly and they they say hey do you mind if we talk to you um you don't need a lawyer or anything we could talk to you um we just have a few questions I'm like well you know I just talk to these guys they're like yeah we have some different questions and I didn't know they were listening to my whole conversation meticulously coming up with questions for me. And they had, it was a shorter conversation. It was like an hour. But they had very targeted questions about

very targeted things, because this is how they set you up for lying to investigators, to federal officials. At the end of that meeting, they handed me a target letter, which they should have gave me the target letter before the meeting even happened. And this is why they lost a trial on this count. But they gave me a target letter saying, Ian Bick, your official. under investigation by the IRS, the Department of Banking, the FBI, the Postal Inspector Service for wire fraud, money laundering, and other shit, bank fraud. And I'm like, you got to be kidding me. And what happens is they give me their card and they're like, call us, you know, let us know as soon as you get home, you know, we're going to work with you, we're here to help you, we're going to make,

because I was like, hey, guys, this was an accident. I'm from the government. I'm here to help you yeah that's what they said and the second i left that house or that apartment i mean that building i um i googled federal uh pub our federal attorney criminal defense attorney in connecticut called him immediately because this is an afternoon he said don't talk to them rip up their card come meet with me tomorrow and that's when i told them everything and he's like yeah we're going to fight this and that's how this all started so at at When you went down to speak with the Department of Banking Finance, did you tell your parents, hey, I got this letter, I'm going to go down there and talk?

No. I wanted to do it on my own. I was just trying to clear it up. I thought that I was raised, like, that law enforcement's good, that they're in your best interest, and that ultimately, like, the truth will come out. And I genuinely believe that I did not do anything intentional. Did things happen wrong? Yes.

but it was never intentional. I was never trying to steal from my friends. Right. This thing got blown out of proportion. I was just a good kid that was just trying to propel my business and I made stupid decisions that were normally caused because I was so stressed out. Like, I don't think there has about a day

where I haven't been stressed since I was like, you know what, 16 years old, you know? So it's just one of those things. Man, I'm just in shock that the lawyer didn't say, to explain to you what a Ponzi scheme was. you know and the thing is is that like I'll talk to guys and say that you know I'll tell them I've had a couple of different events with lawyers and they're like oh a lawyer wouldn't do that no you'd be shocked how stupid lawyers can be and the things that they'll say and the this

even not that I think this guy was sleazy I just think he was ineffective he just he was trying to figure out how do we get this kid out of this or you know maybe he didn't understand exactly what was going on and he's thinking oh no it's civil we can we can handle this by getting a repayment program, you know, plan or something. But yeah, like having a bad lawyer was the reason why I went to prison. Not the lawyer that defended me. It was the lawyers that did stuff before because the first lawyer that advised me should have said right off the bat, you can't do this what you're doing. And when we called him to testify, the feds got to him first. He was already on their witness list and you weren't getting anything out of them. You know,

they get a lawyer and they lawyer up when they're with a big firm. And the second lawyer, had I had a good lawyer, the second one, before an investigation started, we should have got everyone in a room, talked to them, gave a chance for me to explain the version of events for my story, and maybe people would have felt sympathetic and got a payment plan, not cowered behind some letters to make it look like they're a creditor with a bunch of kids. Yeah, yeah. That was the biggest mistake we could have ever done. Yeah, that was a mistake. I mean, there was, it's, it's, there's, you know, the thing is, like, it's the same thing. I always think, like, I don't. definitely was raised with thinking that obviously law enforcement's on your side. You talk to

them. They're out for your best interest. They don't, you know, they want to find the, you know, I watched law and order, you know, they always want to do the right thing. You know, and that's, you know, it's certainly not the case all the time. And the other thing I was going to say is that the difference between when I got my phone call and my letter, I knew I'd done something wrong. You're still thinking, I made a mistake, I didn't really break the law. That's why I went to trial. Right. I mean, so what happened?

So what happened? So I'm trying to, because, you know, the whole time I'm like, why do you do this? Why do that? You know, when you watch the episode, it's like, oh, he should have done this. What was he thinking? Why didn't he do this? He should have known. The lawyer should have told him.

But I've had lawyers tell me all kinds of stupid stuff. I know multiple guys that have gone to, gone to prison because they were listening to a corporate lawyer that told him the wrong information. My case is so complex that I don't think they ever would have pieced everything together if it wasn't for me. I gave them the case. Right. You know, and it still took them a year to investigate and get an indictment and stuff, but it's a very complex case. And I put it all together for them. So what happened at that point?

You've got the target letter. You talk to the criminal defense attorney. He says, do not talk to these people. We're going to fight this. So what happened then? you've got to go to your dad. I went to my parents. My dad already knew what was going on, not about the federal stuff, but just that my

original lawyer that sent the letters and knew that I was owed money, went to my mom, told her everything, she paid for the retainer, and then my lawyer, that $7,500 retainer covered my initial meeting, the initial groundwork, and getting a meeting with the United States Department of Justice as a reverse proffer, which is to see what they have on you. So we go to a meeting at the U.S. Attorney's Office in Connecticut. It's me, my dad, and my lawyer. They have this big conference room. You got two, three federal agents.

You got interns for, because this was the summer, you got interns for the FBI, student college kids, interns for the U.S. attorney's office, two IRS agents, two postal inspectors, and like three U.S. attorneys sitting in this room. And it's you and your dad. Me and my dad, the lawyer is sitting on the table, and the whole rest of the room is surrounded. What are you at all?

Are you starting to realize this is super serious? I was an asshole. I was sitting there in shorts and a, black t-shirt. I'm running my new nightclub Tuxedo Junction at this point. I'm on my phone fucking around, which really pissed off the U.S. attorney at the end. He's like you know, you really should take this seriously.

I'm like, sorry dude, I got a sold-out show tonight at my nightclub. Wow. It was just, and that's what he even said of the documentary. But it was just, I wasn't taking it seriously because I figured in my heart, like I didn't do anything criminally wrong and the court system

would prove that. Now you know that that's not really your decision to make. Well, I knew it. It's really, there's no, when you enter in these criminal proceedings, there's no winning them. You know, I mean, in my decision, I wasn't going to plead guilty to something that I didn't believe that I did. And they didn't offer me a deal. Like, they offered me, I got more time, I got less time by going to trial and losing than I did on a plea deal. Well, what was the plea deal? I think it was like three or four years, like 48 months or something and I got three years. But my lawyer, you know, now that we talked about, earlier did ask for like deferred prosecution or whatever and they weren't going for that they wanted jail time i would have pled guilty to house arrest probation whatever because i knew i owed the money that was i felt that that was the right thing to do i didn't feel like i criminally stole his individual's money and wanted to admit to that and go to jail for it do you think that maybe

your behavior like had you gone in there and been contrite and apologetic and that you could have gotten kind of a pretrial intervention where you Wouldn't have been prosecuted? No, they were gunning for me before that first meeting. Okay. They already had their eyes fixed on me because that could have been the approach with those agents, but they were after me to begin with, you know, with the Department of Banking with everything. I should have gotten a lawyer right away.

That's what I should have done. So what happens after the meeting with the U.S. attorney? That's when they dig into their investigation. They're doing whatever for six more months. My lawyer's in contact with them. They're saying, hey, we're having grand jury meetings. and then, you know, they let my attorney know there's not going to be an indictment until after the holidays, and you'll be able to turn yourself in.

January 2015, now I'm 19, and of course they lied about that. Instead of turning myself in, they raided my house at 6 in the morning with M16s, machine guns, house surrounded, cars lined up and down the road, tactical vests, IRS, FBI, SWAT team, local state police, state troopers, everyone, you name it, was there. to haul me out of the house and handcuffs. If they called you on the phone, you'd have just come down. That was the deal with my lawyer. And that just started it.

You're making it sound like the U.S. government would lie or mislead you. So when they come down, they arrest you, you get brought downtown, you get processed, you get released? Well, that didn't even, that didn't even happen yet. What happened was that I sat outside my house for a half hour in the snow, cold as shit. They wanted to wait for the investigating detention. to come just so we could say we got you do you remember me yeah then they put us in a car we go to one courthouse that judge couldn't make it in that early it was snowing we had to go to another one i'm in and out within a few hours federal bail is very easy if it's not like a dangerous offense

they knew i was getting bail the government didn't oppose it um my parents just signed for 250 grand you didn't have to pay that money you just sign it um the biggest thing was they wanted to ban me from social media they were trying to cripple my income because my night's Club was based on social media promotion. So one of the conditions of my release was I had to close my social media accounts. Okay. So, but up until that point, that nightclub was doing well. It was doing okay. It was a brand new business. So it would make money. My problem was with that business was, see, I was always a terrible businessman, great marketer, bad at business. Like, I would take good money from an event that would make money and pay off bad debts. And I could never get ahead.

Right. So like the electric bill wouldn't get paid. So I racked up a 40, 50 grand electric bill and I'd put wood in front of it. So ever sourced and shut it off. I did like stupid shit. Didn't play the landlord days of events. We had no cash. You need cash to operate a business. Right. So I would take ticket money from sales an hour before doors opened, run to the dollar store, the shopping car, because I didn't have my driver's license or a car and get so cans of soda and drinks and shit to sell at the, because we had a non-alcoholic bar. It was just every day was missing. You know, I had people calling me for money. I had, it's just a lot of pressure. The cops would raid the club every night looking for undercover liquor, alcohol sales, drug sales, everything. What's going on with the people that you owed the money to? Are any of them still coming around? Are they waiting?

Now that it's a federal indictment, I'm not allowed to talk to them. They're not allowed to talk to me. The feds are all promising. You cooperate, you testify, you're going to get your money back. All right. so while they're putting their while they're putting their investigation together you're still running the club so

and that goes on for six months like are they doing anything like giving your bank subpoenas or your bank account being shut down anything like that? That was already happened before I got indicted and now I have a new LLC for the club

pre-trial super I've had in my life probably 15 LLCs and my pre-trial supervising officers out to get me like I'm not even even doing anything wrong. She just doesn't like me. They tried to violate my bond four times because of social media. And then eventually a judge ruled that what they did was illegal because I should have First Amendment rights. Like, you know what's going on with Trump right now with the

whole speaking out loud and stuff? Right. And he's allowed to do that. They censored the shit out of me. I wasn't allowed to do anything. And the judge ruled that that was illegal. Right. Okay. But you're saying they were doing that trying to shut down your ability to make money. they would send the city of Danbury to blackmail me with the EMS services. So they were saying that I had to pay like $3,000 a night to have an ambulance there. Well, by law, that ambulance has to show up regardless if someone calls for that ambulance. You're not going to say if you don't pay, then we're not coming. So if someone calls, they're getting a double whammy.

I'm paying for that ambulance as a business owner that they were blackmailing because they wouldn't let me open without it. And they'd send the fire marshal there to shut it down. and they knew I didn't have money for a lawyer. And two, the person that was going to the hospital for over-drinking because they pre-gamed or whatever, their insurance was paying for that ambulance ride. So they're crippling my ability to make money and operate. Right. What happened? I mean, after six months, what happens?

So this is January. I get indicted. October, I go to trial. November 1st was the trial date. That's fast. It's pretty fast. 11 months. It could have been stretched.

Oh, 11 months. Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay, January. Sorry, I was thinking June, July. No, and we could have stretched it maybe a little bit. It was supposed to be September. We knew my lawyer and my game plan was stretch it as long as possible. Now, in this day and age, you could stretch it longer.

But I've seen quick trials. Like, I'm so shocked Sam Bankman went to trial that fast. Right. He just got indicted, what, six months ago? Yeah. And now he's at trial at nuts. Like, I was not expecting that, you know? And he's already found guilty.

Already found guilty. Yeah. So that was very quick for a complex case. But back then, it was a little bit longer. But so, yeah, it was in November. Jury selection was a day. Trial lasted about three and a half weeks. I testified for a couple days.

They had a lot. They had like 100 witnesses. It was a long trial. The prosecutors were expecting the jury to find me guilty on all counts the same day. To them, that would have been a win. Well, three days went by and there was no, no, verdict yet. And so they're sweating. My lawyer's trying to make a backdoor deal. A lot of people are wondering why this even went to trial. Jury comes back and says we can't reach a verdict.

While in federal court, the judge is ordered by law to state, I urge you to go back and reconsider for that first time they can't reach a verdict. Right. They come back with a question, what happens if we can't reach a verdict before Thanksgiving? Because Thanksgiving is the next day. We started jury deliberations Monday. This is Wednesday afternoon at like 5 p.m. Thanksgiving's Thursday. And they were like, well, you'd have to come back in December after the holiday recess, this and that, 10 minutes later, they have a verdict. And it's the most mixed up verdict ever. So, you know, one of the components- I was going to say somebody was holding out. Yeah. One of the most mixed-up components of wire fraud is you have to have criminal intent. So out of the 15 federal charges, because the U.S. attorney will overcharge you because they need one charge to stick. Right. I'm found guilty on some wire frauds, but not the others. And it's all the same time period. So how could you have criminal intent in one, not criminal intent in the other? There was a mistrial on like four of the counts, but because it's a fraud case federally, they're able to lump all the money. I could have won 14 accounts. I could have won 14 counts,

and that one still would have got me the same amount. Yeah. I won a couple, lost a couple, and missed trial on the rest. And that's what happened. I was able to go home that day after the verdict. The government tried to have another bond hearing to revoke my bond. I won that one. And then it took almost a year to go to sentencing. Did you think about appealing it? Yeah, we went through. We started the appeal process, which carried on through my prison sentence. It took two years to go through the appeal thing, which we would end up losing. Right. But I probably never would have got prison time if I didn't piss off the judge. A month before sentencing, my probation officer finds out that I'm going out of state to gamble. I was gambling out of state in the New York casino because you had to

be 21 and over in Connecticut. So I went to the casino in New York, which was 18 and over. And I was gambling. And you're not specifically the jurisdiction. Yeah, my friends ratted me out that wanted to take over the club. And I was using that money to fund the club for cash flow. And they reported it. Judge revoked by bond. I was in the detention center for like 30 days. And then I got sentenced to three years in prison, one-year house arrest, and three-year supervised release. October 2016, I had just turned 21 years old. So, and you got to turn yourself in, right? No.

My bond got rid of them up. Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, okay. I probably never would have got jail time. The judge was very much in our favor throughout this whole thing. I think I would have got house arrest or probation, which prison ended up being the best thing that could ever happen to me. So what happened?

What prison did you get sent to? I mean, I think the question is, what? prison didn't I get sent to. These fuckers put me through diesel therapy. I was in, in 27 months out of the 36 months that I served, I was in Brooklyn Detention Center twice or three times. I was in Philadelphia Detention Center. I was in Oklahoma City.

I was in Chicago, MDC Chicago, the detention center. I was in the Oxford, Wisconsin Prison Camp. I was in the Danbury Low Security Prison. and I was in the New Jersey Fort Dix, low security prison, all within a span of 27 months. Where'd you spend the most time? I was at a camp for a year in Oxford, Wisconsin was my longest spot. So what, you're showing up for three months and then being moved? First time I got moved and sent to the hole, I did a total of six months in the shoe, mixed up between Dammer and Fort Dix.

The first time was because I got wrapped in a cell phone investigation. They raided our room, found a cell phone, and saw me getting choked. out on a videotape because we were wrestling for fun. They got into the phone, so they put me in protective custody over this incident. They shipped me at the Danbury low security prison, but I got sent through transit along the way. I get to Danbury. I'm on the yard. That's right down the road, Danbury Federal Prison. And after 24 hours, the lieutenant's office, SIS picks me up. Handcuffs me, brings me the shoe, which is like Alcatraz, the three tiers with the bars and everything and I find out that a guard I used to date his cousin and he used to come over to my

house with his cousin who was a woman for barbecues and stuff so it was a conflict of interest right so they threw me back in the shoe for another three months while I waited transit then they sent me on con air went on the plane that whole nine yards and went to oxford wisconsin prison camp in wisconsin you said you went to um Oklahoma city yep I was in Oklahoma city for three weeks around Christmastime, 2017. How was that? Absolutely terrible. And it's like all Spanish dudes from Texas or whatever that are heavily gang affiliated,

the tattoos on their face. But the thing was like there's no paperwork in those detention centers. So like I was safe, but they were looking at me like I'm fucking, I'm a punk, I'm a chomo, you know? I was going to say, what did you think about getting off the plane? Plain was scary. I hated the plane. Have you been on the plane? Yeah.

I know, I mean, I went through. through Oklahoma but I mean when they take you off the plane and you're right into the prison it took 10 hours to get upstairs wow 10 hours we got off the plane that morning and then you sit there because it's like two hours to unshackle everyone then they put you into that pit yeah yeah that when there's a full plane then you're waiting for everyone to go through processing then you go the second floor and then the next floor and then you finally get to your place yeah it's exhausting yeah they make it so miserable. So if you're in pre-trial detention, they do that shit on purpose to get you to cop out to a plea, 100%. So what did you think, what did you think of the camp? Camp was the best, it was

amazing. That shit was like a volleyball court with sand outside. Right. A pickleball court, a basketball court, indoors and outdoors, a track, no fence, good food, only 120 inmates, dogs, a dog program, cell phones good food we were in deep dish pizza we were in mexican food we were in sushi this isn't from this is stuff being brought in this is yeah i was i was the runner i would run through the woods and pick up the bags um great time until a guard tried to rate me what what a male guard yeah he uh he came on to me i've never heard this these clips have gone viral i've never heard this you've never heard about no yeah man a uh a male prison guard came on to me and prayed on me. He tried to get the booty.

And what happened? I was the prison baker. And me and my bunkmate were the bakers. And he didn't call my bunkmate to work one day. And he said he just needed me. And it was like 3.30 in the morning, four in the morning. And I'm scooping muffin mix and we're talking. And this guy is always taking a liking to me. I thought just as friends, like he appreciated that I was young and that Like, I was a good person, and he would let me skip the chow line, smuggle Philadelphia cream cheese so I can make cheese cakes, let me get eggs. Like, whatever, you know, favors. Right.

And I'm scooping the muffin mix, and then all of a sudden, his hand starts touching my elbow, and he's rubbing my elbow. And I'm like, this has to be an accident. There's no way. And he's just rubbing it very weirdly. Like, it was an awkward slow rub. Right. And then that hand goes to my thigh. He's like touching my thigh and then that moves to my butt.

Did you ever ever, you, did you ever realize that this guy's gay? I don't know. I just, I knew I couldn't do anything because there's no cameras. You're in the kitchen. You're by yourself. I can't, I don't want to engage him. I'm traumatized by going back to the shoe. So I just let it happen, let it be.

Tell my bunkmate, we decide not to do anything because we were going to say, like, can we take advantage of this? but we were already getting shit in. So what could this guard do for us? You know? We didn't report it because I didn't want to go to the shoe. And then two weeks later, I'm in the walk-in cooler. And the walk-in cooler is normally locked. So inmates don't take the good stuff, the meats, the eggs, whatever.

And I'm grabbed, normally the guards will unlock it and stand outside because it's narrow. Well, I go and grab a tray of frozen cookies, and instead of him locking it or, like, standing outside, he closes the door and comes in the walk-in. and forces me to walk like my butt against his groin while I'm holding a tray trying to walk out of the cooler. And that was the final straw. Then we end up reporting it. SIS talks to me. They decide not to put me in the shoe because there's a medium next door and he could go work at the medium. So they removed him from the compound.

There was an investigation and they swept it under the rug. Oh, wow. Like, bro, I would have been concerned about them grabbing you, throwing you in the shoe or throwing you on a bus, shipping you out of there. Like I was scared, but when I went and talked to them, I said, I'm not giving up any information until I have, you know, like a verbal word, which didn't mean shit, but, you know, they promised that they wouldn't. And I think that the reason why they didn't that is because I think in this case, they were actually after him because I think this guy had allegations against him before. Because I would later find out recently when the story went viral, a guard from the prison reached out and said, hey, was this officer blank? I was like, yeah, how do you know? He's like, because it's not the first time. Is he an older white guy? middle-aged white guy very creepy you know penis-shaped looking dude had pencil shaped you know so literally something similar to that happened but to not me but to actually an older inmate who was my sally um at one point same type of thing where the guard never touched him but he basically made a bunch of sexual advances toward him and and he was like he was like

you know, no, I'm not interested and absolutely not. And he basically walks off and then he came and he told us he's like, you're not me and my buddy Pete he's like, you're not going to believe what just happened. And he told us and we were just like,

are you serious? Yeah, I mean, the thing that creeped out everyone at the camp and stuff, because he didn't go approach any other man in that camp. He approached me who looked like a little kid.

Right. Like remember, I'm 21, 22. I look young at 28. So at that age, I looked even younger. So that was the scary part about this whole thing. So while I was in Coleman, two, even though I'm not trying to make this about me, I'm just, I'm just, did we have to get Justin here?

I know. I just trying to explain that two COs got arrested for sex offenses while I was there. One was actually using the computer at the prison. Another one hooked up, well, he thought he was talking to like a 13 or 14 year old boy and it turned out to be a 45-year-old pissed-off FBI agent. And he met him like in the parking lot of like a public's or something, like a grocery store and got right. So there was two while I was there. I tried everything to use it to my advantage. I was wearing BP8s, BP9s. Hey, I'll drop this if I could have six months halfway house. You know, this. I wrote my judge. The judge ordered the Department

of Justice to investigate. And then they just wrote bullshit saying the prison system's already investigating this. I found out from my bunkmate that they investigated him at the, got an interview. They did statements and stuff, but I think they buried it. Maybe the guy got fired, but they didn't prosecute him or anything. It's almost like the clergy. They'll move him. They'll just move him to another prison. That's their problem. And they'll move him to another prison. That's their problem. It's fucked up, especially if there's multiple allegations. And like, I met with a lawyer and he's like, you could pursue it, but like you're going to, it's not worth it. So now I just have a great story. Right. And the money I made off the clips off of it, it's all good with me, you know?

So I feel like we're even on that. But it's just, it's just, you know, it's crazy that that happened. So what are your parents saying this whole time? I mean, they were devastated by the whole thing. They were very supportive. My dad always made sure I had money on my books. My dad traveled out to Wisconsin for a weekend to see me. My mom visited me when I was local. And then, you know, I got out January 2019 and after, you know, 27 months and I had four or five month's halfway house time right and then you got out like what were what were your plans when you got out were you i was planning to get back in the nightclub business really yeah i got an article written saying my plans which i got in trouble with the halfway house got a hundred series shot

because i deviated from the course after getting out um to do an interview with the news times right but they ultimately decided not to send me back and pick me up for that um i was gun ho about i thought that was my redemption story to finish what I started. And I soon figured out that, one, if I didn't have a stable paying job, these people were just going to be on me. You know, like the fed's a halfway house, you've got to play by their rules. And two, I didn't want to get investors. And I needed investors to pull that off. Yeah. And so I went and worked for Whole Foods, which I worked at before prison as like a last hurrah or a last final attempt to keep me out of prison. Like, hey, I'm working at Whole Foods. Here's my paychecks while I was running the club.

So I start at Whole Foods, May 2019, make it 15 bucks an hour. Same day I started federal supervised release and worked there, worked my way up to a team leader where I was making $33 an hour when I made $100K last year with overtime. Dedicated three years of my life to them, like determined to move up in the company. I opened up a store for them in Long Island and Massapequa, grinded like six days a week, sometimes seven, gave it my all, determined to show that. your past doesn't define you. And then, you know, last, and in between that time, I did, like, the HBO documentary, did the vice one. We were constantly pitching my story thinking my story,

my past will be the thing that'll get me out of debt, bring me to fame, everything's great. Well, last August, I was like, well, we have no offers. This isn't going anywhere, you know. And is this what my whole life is going to be working for someone else? Like, I've done so much at such a young age. I don't have a family now. I don't have kids. I don't have a wife. Like, There's got to be more than this out. This is the time. You act like you're 60 years old, bro. There's plenty of time.

But what I'm saying is like I wasn't, like now is the time to take a risk. Like if I had a wife and kids, I would not have quit my job last year. No, no. Yeah, you're right. No, that's. This was the time to do it if I was going to do it. Right. And at the time, my friend, my old videographer for the club was saying you got to get on TikTok

and start talking about your story because there's other prison content creators. So I started posting about it. And then MTV reaches out to me and said they want to cast me in a new dating show. And that was my inspiration to quit the job because I thought I had to go to England for two months to fill this thing, film the thing. And I ended up getting ghosted and not casted, but I already quit my job, put my two weeks in. And I started making TikToks three to five times a day, just TikTok and living off my credit cards from then until January. Where were you saying at that time? I was with my parents for six months because I had my own.

place, moved to Long Island, was living out of a temporary Airbnb, and then moved back when I got a promotion Danbury Whole Foods. And I was back on my parents until I got a new apartment. And then after I quit Whole Foods, I got an apartment, which I probably shouldn't have done until I was making stable income, but I rushed into it because I wanted to move out, went back into my own place last November. And then January came around. I'm like, one, I'm not really making much money on social media. And two, it's not sustainable. to talk about my own prison stories for the rest of my life.

Like, imagine if you had to tell your story, what you do anyways, but at the full time. Well, here's, you know, like when I started my channel, I, you know, like I knew pretty quickly where it was like, okay, well, wait a second. And I have 13 years of prison stories

and almost a decade of committing fraud. And even I knew I'll be out of stories pretty quick. Like that, even if you stretch it out, what's that going to be? a year six months like you can't sustain that you have to do interviews and i was getting burnt out from telling stories the same shit every day i was just getting known as which the crowd loved but like in this area and stuff just the kid that was making selfie videos about you know how how not to pee in prison and it was just stupid you know right and so that's when i got the idea to do a podcast

because i'm looking at the content creation field and this is before i even knew of your channel or Johnny Mitchell's or anything. And I was like, I saw a lot of these creators were just doing selfie videos or webcam videos. And I was like, how do I optimize this and do it better? And that's when I got the idea to take high-level production and to build my platform, bring on the creators that already have followings.

Individuals like you, like Jesse, like all these people that have platforms already. I bring them on my show, I fly them out, and then give them clips, and they use it to market and help me grow my platform. Right, you kind of couldn't, yeah, you kind of, I would say, basically you're conscripting their subscription base. And so they learn about you and then they say, hey, I kind of like this guy or I like what he said. And I learned really quickly how to adjust my interviewing skills. And within like three or four months, I didn't need the influencers anymore.

And I was able to take a random story that no one's ever heard about and have them on the show and that would do numbers. So I, it's funny, you know, because when you. you first started doing the TikToks, I can't tell you how many of the guys, because I'm very quick to give out my phone number. You know, I'll go back and forth with someone on Instagram or, or an email and I'll be like, hey, bro, like, you know, here's my phone number. Just text me. Because, you know, maybe they wanted, they're like, hey, I got a buddy. He'd be a great, you know, they'd be a great interview. And, you know, they try and help you out. And you're like, I don't want to email this guy back and forth. He seems okay. You give me your phone number. So then, of course,

you're texting people. I can't tell you have. many people as soon as you started posting would be like bro you got to check this guy out bro you got to check this guy and i'm getting this one text after another test this is going on for a month and i was like first of all at that point i wasn't even doing tictock or shorts or any of that stuff but then when i we started doing them i was like i don't understand like i've got some great stories but bix his stuff is really blowing up And I realize, and I've tried to do this, by the way, kind of mimic the whole, just, you know, talking to the camera.

It's so difficult. It really is like talking to you, I don't really think, every once in a while I'll glance at the camera because I'm like, oh, that's right. I'm on, you know, we're on camera. But this feels very comfortable. But standing there, telling a story to your iPhone, you know, on your little ring, you know, your little ring thing and just telling it, like, it's hard. I won't do it in public. Yeah, it's hard.

I don't, I give Jesse props that he makes a video wherever, but like I won't do it in front of someone. Like, I need to leave the room. I need to do a private thing. Like, I just don't like it because the selfie videos are still good. Like, I'll do some. But I like this because I could just clip it. This is so much easier.

It's professional looking too. Well, I also just, but I think, no, I think your stuff is professional when you, even when you're standing outside just doing it. It comes off good. You're very, you're good at it. You're relaxed. And I'm like, how is he so fun? fucking relaxed doing this.

But you know what the thing was? It was my look. When you take the red cheeks, the baby face, and the glasses, and you put something, a headline that says, how I survive prison, it gets people to stop because it's like, one, there's no way this kid survived prison. Right. Or the people that knew I actually went to prison said, this guy looks like a chomo. So I played off of that.

And I was different in the field that was already oversaturated. Like you have your approaches, you're very open about what you did. And you own that. where a lot of guys in the field will not do that. I don't know anyone else in our field that owns it to the level you own it. Your description is literally I'm a con man. Right. I don't know anyone else that has it and that's what makes you unique, you know, in your own way.

JD has his look with his shirtless thing or whatever. And then there was me that came in where I was very different in the field because I noticed other guys trying to get in the field that don't have the success to get out there because it's the same thing as what everyone else is doing. Yeah, no, when you start talking about, well, you know, in prison, this is how, or this is how you make stinger, or this is how you make, you know, prison pizza, or it's like the fact that you're even saying the word prison, it's like, there's no, he didn't go to prison. And then you have Jesse's angle of, like, everything's philosophical and stuff, which sometimes goes and sometimes doesn't, but that's him, you know, his way of doing it. So everyone just has, Larry Lawton, because he's older. Like, everyone has their different approaches to it. Well, what's the guy, is the guy, I'm going to say his name is Josh from 23 and 1.

Yeah, I've been in touch with him. Yeah, yeah, I've texted him once or twice, and he'd be great to interview. He said he doesn't fly, though. I'm trying to get him on, but he doesn't fly. We have 1090 Jake coming, though. I'm excited for that. Do a remote. I won't do a remote.

I know. Listen, I didn't want to either. You understand, I didn't do any remotes for the first year. I've only been doing them for about a year and a half now. But, yeah, like, I mean, there's, listen, everybody wants to, everybody would, would have you on their everybody would have you on their platform and I think almost everybody involved everybody in the you know the genre

would definitely be on your platform yeah I won't go on other people's remote anymore either unless it's a big name a lot of the times you get on these Zoom ones and they're just like tell me everything and I'm not sitting there looking at a webcam like I'll do it in person all day because at least I get something out of it

because I can make clips from a professional video right I can't do it that in a webcam. And I'm sitting there and I'm like looking into a webcam and this person's like half looking or whatever. I can't do it. I won't do it anymore. Well, see your channel's blown up so you can have standards. Yeah. The bar is very low. Yeah, but you could say that. No, you could say that now too, you know. My channel's doing great. The fact that I'm able to make a living doing this, like, it's the same thing. You were working for hold foods. Like, you had kind of said, this is, this is where it's at. This is what I'm going to have to, I'm going to do. Like, you weren't thinking, I for some

reason felt like I just felt like you had just gotten out of prison when I saw those clips I thought this guy just got out of plan and he planned this the last six months of his prison bid he probably planned I'm going to get out I'm going to tell this story I'm going to tell this story he probably has a list of him he's probably super and every time somebody would mention you I'd go yeah bro that guy's super social media or you know media savvy like he really has it down the idea that you didn't do anything for four years is shocking I'd figure it out on my own. I was social media savvy because of the club, but social media back then was not, there was no TikTok. There was no reels on Instagram. Everything was wide videos, you know?

Back then you could put up a photo and that was great marketing. Everything's just different, but you learn, you adapt. Now I'm very strategic. I remember when I was starting, I'd make a list of all the stories I would tell. I would save drafts. I always keep my TikTok loaded with drafts. I'm very meticulous and anal. I have a second phone just for clips and clients because I run people's client everything's a strategy now and you have to be because this is a business yeah and when you make it into a business it changes yeah i definitely i definitely i mean listen it's paying all my bills so which is shocking to me get that restitution paid yeah anyway so well do you feel like we haven't touched on anything anything you want to else you want to go over yeah just want to you know

Are you actually a prison snitch? No, I'm kidding. We got that. Okay, so everything good? That it? We're good. This is your show, but I'm just saying, is there anything else you want to touch on?

Anything else you want to say? No? This is how you treat all your guys. Yeah, because I always ask, because people have said, like, bro, you just cut it off. Like, give the guy a chance. Maybe he wanted to say something.

I mean, everybody knows who you are. Obviously, we'll put all of your social media links, know in the description box of course okay but that's it we're good yeah can i get my fee for this interview yeah that that didn't happen hey i uh appreciate you guys watching do me a favor if you like the video hit the subscribe button hit the bell so you get notified videos like this also check out the description box for all of ian's social media and his youtube channel really appreciate you you guys watching. See ya.