Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - The Creepiest Man in America | The True Crime Case of Mark Latunski

Episode Date: November 27, 2023

The Creepiest Man in America | The True Crime Case of Mark Latunski

There was this whole 6th dungeon that Latunsky had. It was insane. Kevin Bacon was the victim. Right. He had met up with Latunsky via the grinder app, gone to his house, and Watonski had cut off his tumbles, and he goes upstairs, and he goes into his kitchen, and he fries them in a frying pan, and then eats them. The community is up in arms.

Because of these two guys that had escaped previously, they're like, you know, you could have stopped this. Both of these were consensual, and both of these guys weren't. went back to stay with Mark Lutonsky. Well, they tried to make a political thing out of it, and it really wasn't. How did the police end up at the house? Okay, so this is where I kind of, like, found myself in the middle of the story. Mark was a troubled person.

He was. Mark Lutonski, he went to high school at Morris High School, which is, like, south of Owasso in Chiawess County. He was a valedictorian of his. his graduating class. He ended up having his IQ test later and it was just astronomical. A guy was a genius. He ended up getting...

The Unabomber was like a genius. I mean, he was... Well, that's a very malleable word. But he... There's no doubt he was intelligent. He went to school for basically... He ended up working as a chemist for a couple different places.

Dow Chemical in Midland, and that's one of the big ones. That's one of the huge chemical companies. This was up until about the late, mid to late 2000s, and he started acting just a little bit off. He told his wife, well, this is the early stages. He was medicating. I'm sorry, how old was he then, do you think?

He would have been. Roughly. About 40. Oh, okay. Late 30s or about 40. So he's working for Dow. He started telling his wife that, you know, these people were poisoning his water supply, that his kids weren't really his, just a lot of conspiracy type stuff. And late 2000.

I'm sorry, that seems almost like it might be a touch of schizophrenia or something, too. He was diagnosed as bipolar and schizophrenic in the late 2000s. During this time, late 2000s, he started to show some, and he had always been straight as far as I know. He started to show some gay tendencies. He actually worked as a male escort down south of like Flint and the Detroit metro area. He was on escort websites, all sorts of stuff. Then it kind of changed with him and his wife. She filed for divorce.

She's not going to put up with that, obviously. Then, like, he went off his Mets. He was fine as long as he was on his Mets, but he refused to take him. So his wife was like, you know, I'm not dealing with this filed for divorce. So they get divorced and the wife gets, like, primary physical custody of their kids. And they had, I think, three, two or three kids. And it was 2012, he was charged with, like, custodial kidnapping, which is like a felony. Right.

And he didn't, like, kidnap his kids. He took him to a waterpark and didn't get him back in time. But they charged him, the wife, you know, and I'm not defending him, he shouldn't have done that. But basically, he was late getting him back and he took him to a waterpark. So he takes kids back. His wife is adamant that they press charges. And they charged him with a felony for that. basically he got probation and the judge was like take your meds do this probation and we'll dismiss it at the end of probation and it was dismissed he did complete that successful he did it long enough to complete probation and then stop taking his meds of course um so after he gets done with this probation he refuses to take his meds he's like i'm not crazy everybody else's crazy and he had the cops called to his house a bunch times um once he laid down in his driveway in

pretended to be dead and the cops came up to him and they're like, Mark, we know you're alive, stop. And that happened like two or three times for separate occasions. He married a guy and I wouldn't use his name, but it's already public and he's made public statements. He married a guy named Jamie Arnold. Jamie Arnold was a hairdresser in Flint. Now Mark was kind of bouncing between jobs at this time, but Mark still lived in the house that he had bought. when he was married to his wife. Him and the husband, they were into, and man, I tell you, when I was reporting on this and researching it,

I went down the rabbit hole. There are things I learned about that I didn't. I had no idea even existed. But him and the husband were, they were doing the male escort thing, and it was like BDSM, I don't even know what to call it, because I'm frankly,

for it. Bondage Dominate Bondage domination. Those are the only two but I know. And there's more. Sado maschism,

I think. Yeah. That's it. That's it. So him and his husband were involved in some pretty seedy stuff. And it was open marriage.

Obviously, they were both doing their own thing. So Mark Lutonski got even more out there. Like Jamie Arnold he wasn't already pushing the envelope I mean you know that's to each his or her own

whatever no judgment here but it was really hard like learning about this when I was like in the middle reporting out the story because I don't I don't know any about any of this stuff but they were out there it's all over the internet

you can Google search Mark Lutonski's name and you're going to see all sorts of stuff that we'll get into their particular fetishes later but right up until um the murder he was relatively up until his divorce he was somewhat normal and he got kind of strange then he got married to this jamie arno guy and just went completely off the rails so he he was troubled yeah there's no question about that um so how so what was he doing for a living like he worked for a couple um he worked for dow and he worked for a couple other in a couple other similar

positions i don't know i i just kind of i think i kind of assumed that he didn't work there anymore once all this happened i don't know why i thought that he he either i think he got fired because he was just acting weird at work um this would have been plus he thought everybody was poisoning him and oh he was convinced he was was related to, like, Welsh royalty and everything was a conspiracy, and he had this trust worth millions or billions of dollars and another name, which was his real name, but we'll get into that. What can we get into the case, the court case?

Is that the Nigerian Prince scam? No, but it's similar. Similar team, yeah. Okay. All right. So he was so, okay, so he's still kind of off again, on again, working. for various, as a, was it always as a chemical engineer or? So either that or, you know, positions very similar to that.

And it's kind of strange. He actually holds a couple patents that he gets residual income for, for things that he had done while he worked for Dow and some of these other companies. He holds a couple patents. Because, I mean, he had a nice big house. Like, it's, you know. In, I don't know what he, what the total amount he paid for that house and property was. basically his entire extended family owns a lot of the block like out in rural

Michigan it's not like a city block you talk about a block it's like a huge chunk of land surrounded by roads which are the dividing lines for property so his family has lived there for a long time and they owned most of that block but he either bought it from a family member or something but I don't know how much he originally paid for it but I know that at the time that it was auctioned off. He owed about $100,000, $1,000, $2,000 on it. Okay. Well, I mean, that's what he owed.

It would look like it was worth, I mean, in Florida, that thing would be worth easily half a million. You know, he wore $600,000. Hell, in California, it'd be worth $3 million. Oh, yeah. I lived in San Diego for eight years, yeah. Right. It is a nice piece of property. And for anybody that didn't know what happened in that house, you know, hey, it'd be a great purchase.

Yeah. So, which is horrible that I'm laughing about that. I'm sorry. And before we get any further, you know, at some point in time, I'm going to have to say exactly what happened in the murder. Right. And I want to be completely respectful to Kevin Bacon's family. I've met them. They're wonderful people, salt to the earth, humble, you know, and it's just a horrible thing to happen to them.

But I want to be respectful to them, but, you know, also tell the story. Yeah, it, listen, let's face it, though, it's odd. Like, I know they, they, the whole situation from, you know, from, uh, Lutonski, you know, to, you know, how he, how, uh, Kevin ended, or, you know, I don't know, should I say his whole name. You know, Kevin ended up there to the, the other people that were there. Like, the whole thing is just an odd situation, especially the, the homosexual, um, element of it because typically they're like nonviolent. You know, and this seems really out of character other than the mental illness. So, honestly, even schizophrenics tend to not be violent. He is so, so, and I don't want to, you know, paint with too broad of a brush here, but for any relationship I've ever seen, whether it be straight, gay, whatever, regardless of what, you know, their orientation is, there, one is going to fulfill.

a role of the submissive and one's going to be like the bunch that's right couple straight couples that's natural um but and my sister's gay and i see it she's married to a woman and i see it in her relationship and i don't think she'd be mad at me for saying that it's just you know it's it's a it's reality yeah um jamie arnold was like more feminine one and letunsky like he was 50 when this happened or 51 and like he he was like he was in shame like he worked out you know he was in pretty good shape but so he was definitely the dominant one jamie arnold as soon as this happened basically disowned him and and said i want no part of this and hasn't talked to the media sense um but well he was he must have already been gone that right

yeah he had already filed for divorce and okay yeah yeah when this had happened so how did this kind of start or is there something else leading up to this So, well, there is something leading up to it. November 26th, 2019, this is a month before the murder, I had gotten a tip that there was a guy that had escaped from a basement and he had been chained up in a basement and he was claiming he was drugged and he took off out of this basement. It was running down to railroad.

Remember that, to railroad. and he was wearing a leather cape. I later found out that wasn't completely accurate. But he was wearing a leather kilt is what it was. And he took off to this neighbor south and was just terrified and was telling the neighbor, oh my God, this guy's trying to kill me. The neighbor's like, okay, and Lutonski actually pulled in to the driveway. I found this out later.

It was like, no, no, no. This is a big misunderstanding. This consensual. the guy actually went back to his house. Right. And his name has never been made public. I do know who it is, but it's never been made public. There's no reason to make it public.

He's from Lansing, young guy. I think he was a Michigan State student. So this November 26th, so I get a tip on this the night before. So I go into the newsroom the next morning. At this time, you're working for a, the local newspaper. Right. I was a reporter for the Argus Press in Owasso. And I covered the courts and cops beat. So this was, you know, this was my territory.

So I go into the newsroom the next morning and I call the Michigan State Police media contact person. Dave Kaiser, really, really nice guy. Never volunteered information. But if I knew what I was talking about, he'd be like, okay, you know, I'll give you what I have. So I called him and I was like, hey, LT, you know, I got a tip that there was this weird thing that happened out on Tyrell Road last year yesterday. You know, like that's that didn't happen, did it? He's like, oh, it happened. And I'm like, are you serious?

He's like, yeah. He's like, let me call you back with the report. It calls me back like two minutes later. And he confirmed it. He was like, yeah, it was a consensual thing gone wrong. This one guy got a little freaked out. Latunsky was chasing him because he wanted his leather keel back. and this is probably not my finest moment,

but I was like, okay, so I hung up, and I laughed for about 30 seconds, you know, not my finest hour. And I'm like, I'm like, what the hell is going on? He said, you make the shit up. Right, and everybody, like I did a short little brief, maybe 250 words, and it was on page two. It wasn't even on the front page. That's when I sent you.

And I published this thing, and we posted on our Facebook page, and it just blows up. And you can imagine the comments. And, you know, people are like, they're making that up. There's no way it happen. I'm like, it happened. So I file it away and go on to whatever I'm working on next. Well, can I ask a question?

Like, how did the guy end up in the basement? You're saying it was consensual, but Latunsky, this is an app of some kind, right? It was the grinder app. Okay. So Latunsky, contact. He contacted this guy on Grindr, and they corresponded for a little bit, and they agreed to meet somewhere, Lutonsky's house, presumably. I mean, I guess you. Yes.

Okay. And at some point, they agreed to kind of, you know, the guy agreed to be tied up, and he ended up not agreeing to be tied up and kept in a basement. But that's where it ended up. Is that what happened? That's where it ended up. But what MSP, when I say MSP, it's Michigan State Police, MSP, what they told me is they said, and I paraphrase him, but they said basically when the act was over, Latunsky left him tied up, went upstairs, and went to sleep. So this guy.

Poor guy, bro. I mean, how long did he keep him in the basement? He fell asleep. He doesn't know exactly how long it was. That's where he told the police, but he doesn't know how long it was and he believed that he had better. drug. Okay. So. So he did get away. He got away. He got away, but he ended up going back to Lutonsky's house and they continued to do whatever they were doing. So. Okay. All right. So go ahead. Continue, please. Sorry. So this is November 26th, I published that story of 2019.

Christmas Eve, or December 23rd, um, I had, it was when I found out about a murder I didn't know anything about it it had basically broken and the cops had reported some kind of murder no details there was a murder on on Tyrol Road and I had worked late Friday night and I was exhausted and I woke up like I slept in Saturday morning and I never sleep in I slept into like 10 30 11 o'clock like I was dead to the world and I wake up and it was Saturday like I said and I woke up and I had like 30 missed calls probably 50 text messages from a bunch of people sources that I knew and my friend Nikki called had called me and I'm in text to me and she's like dude there's a murder out on Tyrell Road

and I'm like I'm waking up looking at my phone I'm like I'm like son of a bitch so I'm already behind right I'm like damn it so I get up and I start calling people and I call Nick She's like, I don't know anything. It's all over social media. It's all over news. Murder on Tyrol Road. No details. So that's where I start from.

Well, what happened to the other guy that had that Lutonski had tied up and the same thing happened? Right. So I didn't find this out until later. A couple months later, but there was another guy that had escaped from his basement in October 2019. Now, this guy, we can get into it later. and he's been publicly identified and tried to sue Mark Lutonski for like emotional distress. His name is James Carlson. He lives in upstate New York.

Don't search for his Facebook. It's disturbing. But he had escaped, and this was in the middle of the night, he had escaped almost identical. BDSM, Met on Grindr, he traveled from New York to, you know, come hang out with Mark Watonski. To be drugs tied up, had a sex act, and they left in the basement. Yes, all pretty much identical. And then escaped. And he escaped as well. It's good to know that it's possible to escape. If you're in that situation, it's possible. People have done it. So that makes me feel a little bit better. Not that I think I'm going to be answering any ads on Grindr. But if someone

him were to get me in the basement, drug me, tie me up, that there's a chance I could escape. Yeah, well, Latunsky used apparently leather restraints. So they were able, there was some, I don't even know what to call it. There were some knives involved, and he like left him down in, there was this whole sex dungeon that Latunsky had. It was insane. We can get to that a little later, but. But he, that guy called the police also.

Yes, he did. He called the cops. MSP responded. He had a knife. He cut himself loose. from these restraints took off. He's got the knife. The dispatch call is available on YouTube.

You know, they're like, okay, when the cops get there, drop the knife so they know you're not a threat. He's like, no problem, whatever. So the cops come. Same thing. Watonski doesn't come this time because he's still passed out. And cops come. He's like, this was consensual.

I'm just freaked out. I want to go, oh. Now, the problem is this guy, Watonski had paid for a bus ticket from New York. for this guy to come. His return trip wasn't good for another couple of days, so he's stuck. This guy also went back and stayed with Mark Lutonski for a couple days until

the date that his bus ticket was there. That's risky. I mean, would you go back to that situation? I like to think I wouldn't. But I've done some stupid things. Well, you know, I'd be on edge. I wouldn't

sleep well. I wouldn't be taking anything, any food. I didn't prepare myself. Yeah, and they were in contact for months and months after he had actually come to stay with Mark Lutonsky. Wow. So. And there's a lot of action. It's a lot of action on Terrell Road.

Well, and that's this is this is where it all comes together. Like this all happened before the murder, right? Okay. So you woke up, sorry, I interrupted. You woke up in the morning. No, it's perfect. You're upset. Like, I'm behind the eight.

all. Yep. Yeah. So I start calling people and I call my friend Nikki. She's like, no details, but, you know, it's legit. It's coming out on social media. Like the morning news shows, local TV stations had had short things, you know, murder. We don't know anything. We'll update when they can't. Standard operating procedure. So I'm like, and I'm getting out of bed and I'm pacing around. I'm calling people and I'm like, Terrell Road. To rel road. Why does that ring a bell? Nikki calls me back and she's like, dude, that's where the story you did about the guy escaping from the basement, that's the same house. It's the same house. And I'm like, God damn it is the same house. So I start calling my people, like my sources, you know, I know a lot of people. You get to know court staff. You get to know attorneys. You get to know police working at a newspaper covering my beat. So I start calling people And there were still no details And remember this is like the dead cycle Saturday, Sunday for a news cycle And by Sunday night So late afternoon, early Sunday evening

I had the crime scene I knew how he had been killed I knew what his wounds were I knew where the murder happened I knew which Blow had killed him And I knew like and I knew all the details going to the newsroom Monday morning.

Now, on Sunday night, I can't sleep because I've been, you know, I'm like, man, I got to file this and I filed it from home and I go into work the next morning. And I'm like, I told my former editor, I was like, dude, nobody else has this. Like, nobody else has this. And he, and I went into detail in the story I filed about all the details from the murder. and this is like nobody knows this stuff yet and he's like well who are your sources I'm like I'm going to tell him my sources and he's like well we're a family newspaper I'm not going to run this and I was cursing him out under my breath so bad so I understand the decision but at the same

time I'm like it's only a matter of time until somebody else gets this information and the details and we're going to get beat on it and oh by the way it's your fault when we get beat on it because I told you this morning. Wouldn't run it. So this is Monday morning. So I file my story going to work. He's getting arraigned. Lutonski's getting a rain.

And they did it by video conference. There was a lot of safety worries about him physically being transported to district court for arraignment. So they did it by video. And it was the strangest thing. We go, and it's packed with media. There's like five, six TV stations there. The print people, full of journalists, they had to turn away people from the courtroom, actually.

So the hearing begins, and Lutonski's on speaker. He looks like just this weird, unkempt Viking character. And the judge, the district court judge, Judge Clarkson, who I know, he said sir it starts off he said sir you mark latunsky and mark latunsky's like no mark latunsky is my nephew my name is edgar thomas hill and like all the media we're looking at each other like what is he talking about they know who he is and uh Clarkson's like well regardless we're going to proceed so the arraignment happens and Clarkson's like no bond he you're not getting out, and the public defender was appointed to represent him. Doug Corwin, he's a good friend of

mine. And Corwin, after the hearing, had a press conference, and he's like, I'm filing in a sanity defense. There's nothing else I can do. Now, these details, which I have to get into, and this is not easy for me to talk about either, Kevin Bacon was the victim. Right. Kevin Bacon was 25. He was a hairdresser from Swartz. Creek, small town between Owasso. He had met up with Latunsky via the grinder app,

noticed in a theme here. Right. And gone to his house. Same thing, BDSM. And Watonski had killed him. Then cut off his testicles. Went upstairs.

Bacon's obviously dead. Wait a second. Bacon escaped. First. No, bacon did not escape. Oh, bacon never escaped. He never escaped. Okay, sorry.

I got that wrong. Sorry. So he cut off this poor guy's testicles after he's already dead. And he goes upstairs and he goes into his kitchen and he fries them in a frying pan and then eats them. And I had had all these details and wasn't allowed to publish them. weeks later, some TV station comes out or I forget who was. Somebody else came out and published all the details and I'm like, I told my editor, I was like, I told you so.

And he's like, I couldn't do it. We're a family newspaper. We can now and I'm like, okay. So the murder happens. And I mean, the local populace is outraged. Like, this is not who we are. We don't stand for this kind of thing. this is horrible and there was a lot of support for obviously for Kevin Bacon's family after

murder and this is where it got political because the gay community is up in arms because of these two guys that had escaped previously they're like you know you could have stopped this and I understand the argument but at the same time it's never been reported that both of these were consensual and both of these guys went back to stay with Mark Lutonski right well I mean what do do in that situation? If you're a state trooper and you respond to that call, you're going to be like, okay, nobody's in danger here, misunderstanding. I want no part of this. It would be my reaction. If I thought somebody who was in danger, I'll be like, no, wait, you're coming with me. You know, we'll make sure you're saying. There's a, I don't even know what you call

them. I think they call them influencers or something nowadays. Jeffrey Starr, I believe, is a biological male, has like a makeup line. He goes on this Twitter, just tirade about how we're backwards, uneducated, you know, biased against gay people, small town, you know. Well, I mean, Lutonsky was gay and he was mentally ill, so I don't think that has anything to do with that. That would have happened whether he was raised in Miami, New York, you know, or, you know, you know, Montgomery, you know, Alabama.

Like, it's irrelevant. But people are jerk. well they tried to make a political thing out of it and it really wasn't it was just a horrible mental illness yeah you know he's mentally ill yeah so following the arraignment um core when the public defender files for an insanity defense i mean that's his only move he had i get it um they he was cooked letonski was absolutely done um well i mean and they they the police came to the house, right? Like, how did the police end up at the house?

Okay, so this is where I kind of like was found myself in the middle of the story. Like I didn't knowingly participate, but I had some bearing on what happened in the story. So there was a preliminary con, Watonski was first found to be incompetent to stand trial and this took forever think of the timing early 2020 COVID everything shut down every all the core systems are basically you know everybody's getting out on bond and you know they're having a court date will tell you when the court date is like courts shut down in Michigan so a couple months go by whatonsky's found incompetent he's down at the michigan psychiatric center in selene which is kind of by Ann Arbor um no bond he's

He's not getting out. So months later, he's found competent to stand trial. So they hurry up and schedule this preliminary hearing, which is like a probable cause hearing. You know, is there enough evidence for this to continue to go to trial? And you heard these police officers testify about what they found when they went to the house. Now, they went to the house after Kevin Bacon didn't show up for like a family breakfast. like a Christmas Eve breakfast. They went to his house December 28th, I think.

So the body had been there for a couple of days. So they have this probable cause hearing. And I'm sitting there. And again, it's a ton of media. And after the hearing, well, Clarkson ruled, you know, there's enough evidence for this. He confessed there's physical evidence. His DNA was on the frying pan.

You know, like his DNA was on the knife. They found the body in the basement. Yeah, real quick, let me tell you a story about the body in the basement. So, Lutonski had basically created this secret sex dungeon in his basement, and it was somewhat hidden. But when it was Michigan State Police and some township police, just small police department, went there for a welfare check. They found Kevin Bacon's body inside this sex dungeon. hanging upside down from the rafters and he had like this counterweight pulley system that he was using like his weightlifting weights to like counterbalance and keep him up in the

air and um i'll touch on this later but wittonski it was a concrete floor wittonski had cut a hole in the floor directly underneath kevin bacon's where his body was hanging to drain any was left in his body like it's dirt underneath this kind of and one of the troopers, you know, imagine being one of these poor cops, and you walk into that. And you're like, oh, my, that's what he said on the stand. He was like, oh, my God, oh, my God. So that's how the troopers found his body. That's what they testified to.

So after the hearing, Watonski is declared competent. He's going to have his day in court. It's going to have. So everybody walks out after the hearing. I talk to Kevin Bacon's parents. Carl and Pam really nice people I talked to his sister and I talked to his roommate now this is where this is where it got weird his roommate and I forget I forget her name but I asked her I said hey you know I know you were telling the state police that you know he had this grinder

date which Kevin had told his roommate about you know I know that they know about that but I did a story a month ago about a guy escaping from the basement and I think it was Mark Lutonsky's house. I said, did you hear about that or know anything about that? And she's like, yeah, actually, I had a friend send me, and that was the screenshot I sent you of the original story I did, that, you know, hey, this sounds like it was in the same area, same road, you know, like, I think this is the same guy. And she, um, she was like, wow, okay, so she forwarded that to Michigan State Police. And that night that she sent, it to Michigan State Police is the night they went to Mark Lutonsky's house and found Kevin Bacon's

body. And she tells me that and I felt dizzy. Like I felt whiteheaded. And I'm like, I'm like, holy shit. I just became part of this case. Right. So a good friend of mine, Mark Durfey, he's the investigator for the public defender's office. He comes over after I'm done talking to his roommate. And he's like, what did she just see to you? You look like you just saw a ghost, you know? And I'm like, I'm like, I can't talk about it right now. I'll tell you about it later. And she confirmed that, at least in part, that the story I'd done a month before that, you know, state police, obviously the troopers who responded already knew about it. But the state police were like, yeah, we're aware of this. And, you know, and I'm not trying to take any credit. I'm just

saying, you know, like, I did a story on a murder scene a month before the murder happened. And in my opinion, you know, these two guys that escaped, I don't think Mark Lutonsky had any plans to kill him. I think what he was doing is a practice run. Yeah, I was going to say they, you know, you build up to it. Yeah, and I think that's what he was doing. I think there were practice runs. You know, mental illness, I can't get in as much. mind, I've written to Mark Lutonsky since he's been in prison. And, you know, I paraphrasing, you know, hi, my name's Josh Champlin. I'm a reporter for the Argus Press. I've covered you,

your case. I've been at every hearing. I know he's seen me because he'll look you in the eye and you get like cold chills. But basically I said, look, you've been found guilty. You're doing life without parole. Well, he pleaded guilty. You're doing life without parole. it's been 45 days which in Michigan you have 45 days to submit an appeal that you haven't submitted an appeal there's no way you're ever getting out of prison you don't have anything to lose by talking to me I'd like to interview you I'll come to you I'll go through whatever security stuff I have to at the prison I don't care that's fine and he never responded that's just rude I I mean he's never going to get a sentence reduction no I wish they had buried him under the the prison, honestly. He's never getting out. Um, you know, he's going to die in prison. But it, you know, if you're him, at least, I, I can't put myself in his shoes, but I'd be like, well, I might as well tell him that life story. He has nothing. He's not going to be. I don't, you know, who knows how his mind's working. I mean, you know, to him, this may be all a part of, um,

you know, the government, you know, conspiring against him or, you know he probably he i'm sure he feels no remorse um i'm you've seen the videos of the of the interrogation there's no remorse there he he's got he's tried to convince himself or trying to convince people that he uh that that that um bacon or that Kevin Bacon actually wanted to be to end it for him to end his life you know yeah he actually claimed that Kevin Bacon wanted wanted him right he said Because, and this is public, I wouldn't say it unless it was already public. Kevin Bacon had problems with depression.

You know, he was a young man. He just was starting out in life. He didn't really know himself. So he was depressed whether that had any bearing on what he was doing in a sexual life. I don't know. But he was looking for something. And what Tonski actually claimed, and you mentioned the interrogation video, he's sitting there,

Latunsky's sitting there like it's the most normal thing in the world for him to have a guy after he asked him to. He still wants to go back because he has to take care of his dog. How long is it's going to take? I was going to mention that.

He didn't think this was serious at all. Like he's asking these detectives. I only know one of them. I've only met one of the two detectives that were there. But he's like, you know, do you think we can wrap this up soon? I got to go home and feed my dogs or take care of my dogs.

And you're watching this and you're like, This dude is so disconnected from reality. And he's wearing a leather. You can see his leather kilt in the video. I remember we were watching it. I was watching it and we were like, what is he wearing? I'm like, is that a dress? And my wife goes, I think that's a guilt.

Yeah, it was. I was going to say he also, you know, the detectives, when they start asking him about the cannibalism, about him, you know, eating how he prepared them. And then he starts saying that his goal was to turn Kevin Bacon into jerky. Yeah. He had a whole thing on how he was going to consume the entire body to return it to the earth. Like he had a whole thing.

And that was Kevin Bacon's is what he wanted. Do you remember? It was like. So Kevin Bacon, this is according to Lutonsky, so take him. He said that Kevin Bacon asked him to and make sure that nothing went to waste. Words to that effect. Now, right after the arraignment, I met with someone who was heavily involved in the case, shall we say. And he told me, he said, look, this guy seemed proud of what he had done.

He told me he was going to make fertilizer out of his bones. and beef jerky out of the flesh off from his body. And I kid you not, immediately following the murderer, Michigan State Police intercepted a dehydrator that Latunsky had ordered after he got Kevin Bacon. A dehydrator. So according to Latunsky, that's his justification for saying that he was going to do this with Kevin Bacon.

Yeah. Yeah. And they, MSP actually searched Latunsky's property for most of a day with like a, you know, dogs that can detect remains. And there are these conspiracy theories about how, you know, he's done this before he's a serial. Their body's buried out there. They never found anything. Yeah. I think probably the first two were trial runs, you know, just to build up his confidence.

And then he decided to have a bacon. you know they were yeah or to and it was amateur hour as far as latunsky goes i think he wanted to be caught um he a weird weird thing about this case and this came out during um more weird than the well just odd it doesn't get any weirder than that but this came out during the civil cases and there were two um that i want to get into um this uh uh James Carlson from New York, the first guy that escaped. He, it was December 28th, 2019, when the cops came to Letonsky's house. This is in, this is on Pacer.

You can look it up, James Carlson, C-A-R-L-S-E-N, Eastern District of Michigan. It's all in the filings. And Carlson said that on the 28th, he was actually on a FaceTime with Latunton. And he saw, you know, like you're holding your phone like you do like this, he saw Kevin Bacon's body in the background hanging upside down. Latunsky admitted to Kevin Bacon and this James Carlson guy is like the actor. You know, what are you talking about? And Latunsky didn't answer him and all of a sudden you hear bang, bang, bang on the door. And that was the state police and they were coming to do this welfare check.

and Lutonsky throws his phone on the couch or chair or whatever, goes upstairs, and James Carlson was on the phone with him when the cops came and arrested Lutonsky. Crazy. Crazy. It's all in the court filings if you ever pay their account. Right. Okay. So what happened after he eventually, I mean, he doesn't he plead guilty or how does that the court proceedings proceed? So there were COVID delays.

The court circuit court was shut down for months on end. And then they started doing like Zoom hearings. But for this case, like they wanted to be very, very careful so they didn't give them any grounds for appeal. Like the word was out, you know, mind your peas and cues. We are not doing anything to mess this up. We have a confession. We have evidence. Don't give them any procedural reason to get any appeal.

Don't do it. So they wanted to be very methodical and very careful about how they prosecuted. this case. And they were. So there were COVID delays. Lutonski was incompetent, competent. Then the public defender did their own evaluation. He was incompetent again. Then he was competent again. This thing was scheduled to go to trial last late October, early November. So it was supposed to go to trial about a year ago. And it's funny, the county prosecutor, Scott Carter, who I know pretty well.

He was in court, and I was covering, this was unrelated, but I was in court covering something. I was, you know, we were on a break, and I was like, I was going, Scott. And he's like, oh, just stressing about the Latunsky trial. I was like, think about it this way, man, you're going to have lights camera action. You're going to have every media outlet in Michigan here. You got a slam dunk conviction. You got a confession. Your case is airtight.

It's going to, you know, like, good for you. It's done. You got it. He's like, yeah, yeah, I guess so. So this whole time, almost three years from 2019 to end of 2022 almost, Wutonski is in the psychiatric center and that's where you go for like a psychiatric evaluation and you don't leave until they decide one way or another. So he's there the whole time. Now, when you're, it's basically a mental hospital prison, you don't have male privileges.

you don't have TV privileges. You might get a book. You know, you don't have iPads or access to email or anything like that. So he's locked down. And he was adamant that he was going to go to trial. And then he fired the public defender as his attorney and hired this woman. She actually defended. No, I think that's, he ended up hiring on this law firm, high-powered law firm,

which was a waste of money. But basically he went to them and to his attorneys and was like, look, I know I've been adamant about going to trial, but I want to plead guilty. I'm going to hurry up and get to Michigan Department of Corrections so I can have all these privileges. I'm never getting out. I might as well have TV, mail, email, email, iPad, whatever. That was his motivation for pleading guilty.

So he ended up pleading guilty in Michigan. I'm not sure about Florida law, but in Michigan, if you plead guilty to murder, the presiding judge has to make a determination, whether it's first degree, second degree, manslaughter, you know, accidental death, whatever. And Judge Stewart, Matt Stewart, who I know really well, you know, he was like, this is premeditated. There's no way around it. There were two prior incidents, you know, this, you're guilty of first degree murder. and he was sentenced oh geez what was the date on that uh and he was sentenced December 16th of last year so almost three years to the day um from when he killed Kevin Bacon he was sentenced to life and brism though he's never getting him so okay so what

happened with the um with the civil trials okay this okay well there were two. There was the one that the James Carlson guy filed and it was a federal, there was a federal civil suit alleging like emotional distress, a few other things. I feel it was a money grab or attempted money grab. It was just the arguments and briefs by his attorneys were not well written. And I'm not an attorney, but I've read thousands of court files. It was just flimsy at best and I think it was an attempt. did money grab. So that one was dismissed because his attorney's actually withdrew because the guy was a habitual liar. You know, he was lying to his attorneys. He was lying to investigators. He was actually scheduled to be subpoenaed for the trial, the criminal murder trial, if it ever happened. But, you know, like he had Wittonski pleaded guilty, so it was moot anyways. So his case was dismissed without prejudice. So it could be brought again if he can find someone to represent him. He won't. Right. It was just a spurious lawsuit and it had no merit. It was an attempted money grab. I think he was trying to get Lutonski's family to settle and they wouldn't do it.

So that's one of the civil cases, the short suite, one that's pretty easy to explain. The other one was filed by Mark's brother Paul, Paul Latunsky. Now, I got to rewind a little. bit. Paul Latunsky. Okay. So, Latunsky was arraigned December 31st Monday, December 31st, 2019. He had been in arrears on his mortgage for, I don't know, five or six months or

whatever. So he was behind. And then the murder, he was charged with the murder. He's not getting out. So basically the mortgage company. It was a small company out of Flint. And like I said, the balance that he owed was like $101,000, $102,000. I don't know what he had already paid on it, but that's what he owed.

So the mortgage company was like, we don't want this publicity, unload this property, sell it at auction. In Michigan, that's what mortgage companies do. If a house goes in or a property goes into foreclosure, then they'll have what's called a sheriff's sale. and the county prosecutor is in charge of that and they'll basically do all the legal filings and paperwork that you have to do to auction the thing off. They did an auction. The auction was at the circuit courthouse in Corona,

which is like the county seat. I believe it was January 20th, 2020, or 21st maybe, right around there. They railroaded this thing through the, the prosecutor's office, the sheriff's office were like, we're doing this auction, get rid of this, we don't want any part of this, bad PR, you know, auction it, get rid of it. Right. So, and I've never seen one expedited to, to that extent before where they rushed it through. Because, you know, we've got, at this point, we've got BuzzFeed, Huffington Post, Rolling Stone is doing stories about this murder case and, you know, how we're all bigots and everything.

they're like let's get this done with unload it whatever so i go to the auction at the courthouse the morning that happened it might have been the 25th but it was right in there so i go to the auction and right before i had left i get a call from from a source and i forget who called me but they're like dude there's some domestic thing going out at the latunsky residence i don't know what's going on the cops are there and i'm like this is weird and i'm like and i I'm like, well, I got to go to the auction. So I sent one of our other reporters out to the Lutonski property. He goes out there.

He comes back. He's like, cops won't talk. Family won't talk. I don't know what's going on. And I'm like, well, okay, I'll mention it in the story. You know, you were there. You saw it. I'll mention it the story.

So before the auction starts, it was a guy by the name of Doug Chapman that was doing the auction. And he's now the sheriff for Shyawesi County. and he was a sergeant at the time he was basically administrative he did administrative work for the sheriff's office been there for you know 25 years or whatever so I knew him I knew him pretty well and I was like Doug you know like I just got a tip there's some domestic situation you know happening out at the Latunsky property you know like do you know what's going on and he's like I haven't heard anything I don't know if I knew anything I'd tell you I'm like okay so the auction happens and it was purchased for you know 102,000 and the people the guy that purchased it his name

he was acting as an agent for his father the kid's name was um Alex deal and his dad's name was Stephen deal okay so they they bought the property at auction so I later found out and I was in pretty regular communication with Paul Atonski um I later found out that made be 15 or 20 minutes before the auction took place that Paul Atonski got an emergency order from probate court that named Paul Atonsky as his brother's conservator. Because it's, if you're in prison or jail or something or medically, you know, incapacitated, you can have someone set up as your conservator to act on your behalf of your head. Like a power of attorney, kind of a guardian.

Exactly. It's almost like a guardianship or a power return. So he got this court order immediately before this auction happened. We're talking across the street from like two different courthouses. What what Paul Latunsky should have done has come over to circuit court to this auction and said, hey, I got this order. You know, this auction is illegal. It's invalid. You can't do this. Right. Instead, what he did is he ended up going out to his brother. property where Mark Lutonsky's ex-wife and kids were attempting to get in the house to retrieve some personal property, beds and, you know, whatever. And Paul Lutonsky goes out there and he's like, no, you're not getting in here. What his motivations were? I don't know. So they're polishing the, polishing the brass on the Titanic.

I mean, you know. So Mark Lutonsky's ex-wife, her name has been made public, it's Emily, not that it matters, but she ends up calling Sheriff's Office. Sheriff's Office deputies come out, and they tell Paul Otonski to kick rocks. They're like, if you don't leave, you will be arrested. He's like, wait a minute, I got this emergency order. You can't even be on this property unless I tell you to come on. They can't be on this property. You leave. And they're like, dude, if you don't leave, you're going to get arrested. So he's like, all right, fine. So a couple months down the road,

Paul Otunsky files a civil suit against Stephen and Alex Deal. Stephen Deal was the dad, and he's from Fenton, and he owns like a used car dealership down there, so he's somewhat well up. Alex Deal is his son, and Alex Deal moved into this house, like basically broke in, changed the locks. They're supposed to wait, I think it's 60 or it could be 90 days. It's called a redemption period in Michigan, where if a house is purchased at auction, like let's say my house foreclosed upon, somebody buys it at auction. I think it's 60 or 90 days. I can redeem, you know, with a certified cashier's check, pay it off to whoever bought it at auction

and be like, no, I'm keeping. That's state law in Michigan. I don't know what it is in Florida. So the deals, Paul Litunsky actually, I was told, but I have no way to verify this because he won't confirm it. But I was told that Paul Watonski borrowed the money from a sister to purchase or paying off the redemption on Mark Lutonski's property. He tried to present payment to the deals three or four times and they refused. So, you know, he's like, no, you have to take this check. Alex deal had moved into the house and he was, he had like German Shepherd dogs and was like breeding them.

again, I can't verify this because he was always, he was always cagey, and he lied to me on many, many occasions while all this was going on, trying to get favorable coverage in the newspaper. So I was always very skeptical of him and Paul Latunsky. They were trying to, you know, milk me for any information I had, and I'm like, I'm not telling you anything. And so Alex Steele would never tell me anything. But he was breeding German Shepherds, and I've been told. again I can't verify this but that he had sold some of these dogs that he had bred previously to various police departments for use as canine and he trained them like they were very well trained German shepherds and basically he trashed the house they removed I mean they ruined the carpets they removed a lot of the appliances there was a safe that Mark Lutonski had that had had like silver, a little bit of gold, a bunch of rare coins that just

disappeared. There were people in and out of this property before Alex Deal even moved into it. So Alex Deal is inviting his friends over and basically doing guided tours of this house where this murder scene happened. He later told the media

a TV station, like, I had to clean up human remains on the base. He was given guided tours showing people those human remains in the base. And what that is, He wasn't specific. Alex Deal, Paul Latunsky actually went out there with a shotgun, which you can't do that, while this is all up in the air, right?

Like this civil case is going on. Paul Otonski goes out there with a shotgun, threatens Alex Deals like, get out of here, you're not supposed to be here. And Alex Deal took the gun from him, beat the hell out of him. And then they dragged Paul Otonski away for, like, threatening him with a shotgun and charge him with a felony. The prosecutor's office immediately dismissed. case because they knew what was going on with probate in the civil case. They're like, if we put

this guy in jail, he's going to sue us because he had every legal right to be here. And, you know, we don't want that. So they dismissed the cases against Paul Watanski. Alex Deal, it turns out years before, and he's, he's not dumb, right? Like, he's got a bachelor's degree. I want to say in psychology or something. And he's now a professor. at University of Nevada, Las Vegas, UNLV. It turns out, and you can do a Google search on this, MLIB did a story on it years ago. Alex Diehl was convicted.

He was 19 and the other guy was 18. But he got into some beef with some kid at a party and went home, grabbed a shotgun, went back to this party, shot this other kid in the back. It was loaded with birdshot or the other kid would have been dead if he had had a slug or buckshot in there. So he wasn't trying to, but he shot this kid. So he's charged with attempted murder,

and he ends up pleading down to some, you know, nothing charge. He does six months in jail, probation, and scoffrey. So, you know, there's the mental state of everyone involved. Thank you. It's all over the, all over the place in this. And Stephen Deal, the father, like, I had called him for comment when the case was filed. And I went to all the hearings for the civil case, too.

And I called Stephen Deal. I was like, you know, Alex Deal, your son was living in this house, you know, for months and months while all this was going on. Paul Latunsky had him evicted. And Alex Deal had to vacate the property. and Stephen Deal, I called him, and he's like, I can't comment on that. I was like, look, he was living there. He told me so himself. He has pictures on his Facebook of him in the house.

Right. And Stephen Deal, he's like, I can't comment. You'll have to call my attorney. So I'm like, all right, hang up, call his attorney. And I call his attorney. I forget the guy's name, but, you know, he's like, well, Stephen Deal, he had no idea that Alex deal was living in this house. And I'm like, I find that very, very difficult to believe.

Alex Deal was driving around BMWs with dealer plates on him from his dad's dealership. You're telling me he wasn't in contact with his dad, at least on a semi-regular basis. Come on. In the deals, Alex's mom, Stephen X-wife, like this chick is weird. She was calling me all the time trying to get me to give up any information that I could about Paul. Olatonsky and I was like, look, I don't trust you and I don't trust him and I'm not telling you anything. You know, like where do you feel, you know, like I should have to give you anything I know just because you're in a civil case? And she wasn't a defendant in the case.

Right. The weird thing is the civil case was a bench trial. So that's decided by the judge, not a jury. Right. Paul Latunsky testified for, I think, at least two days. And Judge Stewart ended up telling me later, he said, you know, Paul Otonsky is the most credible witness I've ever seen in my life. And I have to agree.

Like, you know, he had receipts for everything, all the damage that had been done. When Alex Deal was forced out of the property, you know, he trashed the place. It was a tourist attraction for him. That's all it was. It was a free place to stay while his dad paid for it. And Paul Watonski ended up winning, I believe, he won the case. And Stephen Deal tried to get dropped from the case. The judge was like, no way.

You're the one who technically bought it, even though your son was acting as your agent. Stephen Deal tried to get dropped from the case. Didn't happen. Paul Watonsky was eventually awarded, and I don't have it in front of me, but it was just shy of a million dollars damages plus attorney fees. which are not part of the public record. I would say it pushed it well over a million dollars with attorney fees. So what happened after the civil case verdict came down is Stephen and Alex Deal.

Oh, by the way, Alex Deal acted as his own attorney during the civil case. I even is like, dude, what are you doing? you know, anybody who represents himself and court has a full for a client. So, and he's like, oh, I got some tricks up my sleeve. He didn't know what he was doing. So they file an appeal because they don't want this million plus dollar judgment hanging over their heads for the rest of their lives. I get it.

So they offered a settlement to Paul Latunsky, and I don't know what that settlement was. I could speculate, but I would say it would probably be a. third to a half of that and that's that's just a guess um you know like you you're going to take whatever they're going to garnish your wages for for the rest of your life per month are you going to take a lump sum payment guaranteed you know so right so he so letonsky ended up with the house paul latunsky did yes yeah so okay whatever happened with the house they did they just renovated or bulldoze it or well that's what most of the uh residents Shiawessie County wanted to see it bulldozed to the ground.

As far as I know, Paul Latunsky still owns it. Okay. Well, Mark Latunsky still owns it, but Paul Latunsky is acting as his conservator and makes all the decisions regarding that property. Good luck renting it out is all I have to say. The thing that bothers me and I've had no communication from the Bacon family, and we talked about this a while back, is, and I'm sure it's difficult for that. them to talk about. But if they wanted to fight, and they have five years, that's a statute of

limitations to file a civil suit. They could yank. They could sue him. I mean, you got the guilty. Yeah. Plea already. That's as good as gold. You go into a civil case, you know, wrongful death. Like, they would win. They could easily sue them and pull this property and, you know, salt the earth with it if that's what they wanted to do. They have not filed a decision. civil suit. I cannot believe they have them filed a civil suit. They could easily do it and they could easily win. I've even offered to, because I know a lot of attorneys, some of my best friends are attorneys. And I've even offered them, you know, hey, I'll introduce you to somebody, you know, that this isn't right. You should have some recompense, you know, for your loss. And they haven't said

that any, that yes, we're going to do it or no, we're not interested. Nothing. Just no, no, Nothing. No communicato. Nope. No. And like I was at Kevin Bacon's funeral. Like I hugged his mom and she was crying. Like I had her tears all over my face.

You know, these are wonderful people. I don't want to put their business out there, but it's they've since divorced. That's their business and I'll leave it at that. You know, that might be, I don't even want to speculate. You know, maybe it's not a united front. I don't know. okay all right well anything else you think we haven't touched on oh um there was allegedly um and this this was a rumor you got to you got to have a good bullshit detector um when you're covering murder cases and high profile cases as a report you got to you got to have a good bullshit detector um when you're covering murder cases and high profile cases as a report order. But there were so many conspiracy theories going around during the murder, you know, because this was three years. It was just long and drawn out. And it didn't really have to be. It's just every star is aligned to make things as difficult if possible or last as long as possible.

The some of the things, you know, like, oh, there were more victims that stopped. There were no more victims. This was a very amateurish murder. by Lutonsky. Doug Corwin, the public defender, actually tried to get the charges modified because it was open murder and mutilation of a human, or a... Corpse. Corp's.

And Doug Corwin actually tried to get the charges modified to assisted suicide. You remember Kovorkian back in the 90s? Yeah. Right. So he tried to do that, and Mark Lutonski may have potentially

seen the light of day outside of a prison. the judge was like absolutely not this is open and shot murder case no way so you know like a lot of the things that were said you know at p you have one side trying to make it political you have the other side who's just as outraged you know and like none of this has ever been comprehensively reported like i've done probably 34 35 stories on this between the criminal case and the civil cases and it's like you'll get bits and pieces and pieces. But, you know, like I was in the middle of this thing from the very beginning and even before the case, before the murder case. Right. Well, you're writing a book about it, right?

Yeah. Yeah. I actually submitted the Freedom of Information Act for the complete investigative file. I actually sent it Sunday, which doesn't count because it's not a business day. But it was received on Monday. And I submitted it to the prosecutor's office. And Scott Turner actually called me a couple hours ago. And he said, he's, he's like, there's like 4,000 pages. It's going to cost a good amount. Right. You know, it's going to be about 12, 1,300 bucks. And I'm like, wow, if that's, that's what I got to do, that's what I got to do. He's like, well, is there anything in particular you want? I was like, I want everything you got. And I'm not going to publish, you know, pictures of Kevin Bacon's body in a book. I would never do that. I have enough respect to

family and decency frankly to not do that um you know but at the same time i want to see everything that they have um and and the book's coming along slow the way we discussed this um i'm trying i'm trying something new taking some of the advice you gave me um it's it's coming along slow i hope to have it ready for proofs and review by legal counsel by the first of the year because i don't want to get sued. I've never had a retraction and I've never been sued. But I hope to keep that street going. But yeah, it's, it's coming. Scott did tell me there are other people that have submitted requests. So I'm not the only one who's doing something. I'm just the only one who's publicly said. Right. But the judge in the case, Judge Stewart, he told me, you know,

year and a half, two years ago, he was like, you need to write a book on this. Like, There is no one in a better position than you. Like, you're the, you were the Cub beat reporter when that started. You know, like I was at the paper for five years. He's like, you need to write a bucket. So you were in the middle of everything. You know everybody involved in the case. The one glaring weakness that I'm going to have is that I never got the chance to talk to Kevin Baker.

Well, no one else did either. Right. And it's a shit. Well, you do have the, the, you'll get the tape, the interrogation. tape. Yeah, you know, you can glean some things from that. Well, I already have audio of that. I was at the hearing and they played the whole thing at the

hearing. And just to just in a quick aside and nobody's ever reported this and I was, I was, I wanted to in a story and I'm just like, this is bad taste. This is just something I observed

from a hearing in circuit court. So if there's no jury, present for a proceeding. They'll let the press sit in the jury box. It's pretty cool, comfortable seats, good view. So I was at a hearing in circuit court. Mark Lutonski's there in person. His defense attorneys are there, prosecutors there, courtroom's packed, and they're playing this confession to two Michigan State Police detectives. And he's, he gets into the part where he's talking about the BDSM stuff that they got into. And

graphic violent acts and he basic Kevin Bacon had two stab wounds to the back of his neck a superficial one across his throat and then the one that was the cause of death across the throat and he's talking in in he's watching himself on this video on this huge TV describing how he killed Kevin Bacon and he's sitting there with his legs crossed and he was like a stone during all court proceedings I've ever been to with him he sat there and he was like a potted plant except when it when they played this tape of his confession he started tapping his feet and like bouncing his feet and his eyes got big and he was looking up at the screen and it was like what is going through your mind right now and i was i was just like

it was i don't even i don't even want to think about it but there was some kind of activity when he was watching himself talk about it it blew my mind it flew my mind. Did, did you ever figure out why he said, like, he wasn't Mark Latensk, or Mark Latuski? Latunsky, yeah. He's sorry, at the preliminary hearing, like. Yeah, so obviously part of it was mental health, but he had taken on this online persona with this profile that he had, and there were all these websites called, like, rent men, you know, and these are like, escort services. He started calling himself, it was like, Vilco, Olikos, Vilkos. Now, each of those

words means wolf in like Polish, Greek, Lithuanian, I think. And like, he was, he told the investigators when he was being interrogated, he's like, you know, whenever there's a new moon, I like to eat Rocky Mountain Oysters. You know what those are. So I think he had like this, this strange fixation with like norse mythology mixed with god knows what else and it's just i just i don't think he had any idea what obviously his mind was warped and i'm not a psychologist i can't i can't describe this in great detail but he was obviously not a well-adjusted human being but at but at the same time he was also highly intelligent yeah and it's just he'll he's the only one that knows the question of that he's not talking right so that's that's another regret

but you know the only thing the only word he ever said besides when he claimed he was someone else in any court proceeding was no that's the only word he ever said do you have anything you want to say no or he said yes when he pleaded guilty okay Yes, those are the only two words he ever said in court. No remorse, no emotion. Okay. And it's just, it's tragedy. You know, this poor 25-year-old kid, he's gone.

So. All right. Well, I appreciate you, you know, taking the time and talk to me about this. No problem. It's, uh. Super interesting. Disturbing. I, I lived it, man.

I've had some bad dreams, you know, like, my first day at the paper, my former managing editor told me he's like, look, you're going to be covering court stuff. There's going to be some things you're going to hear that are not going to be easy to hear. And I'm like, yeah, right. You know, you go in and you cover these, it's called criminal sexual conduct in Michigan, kitty deadlers. Yeah. You hear like a six-year-old have to go up on the stand and testify about what? but so-and-so dead to her, and it just, you, you, it's, it's disheartening. It is.

And though, honestly, the murder, Kevin Bacon's murder was horrible, but that's, you know, it's, it's horrible some of the things you hear in court. And I don't ever, ever plan I'm writing a book about that. Right. Hey, I appreciate you guys watching the interview. And if you liked it, do me a favor and subscribe to the channel. hit the like button hit the bell so you get

notified of videos like this and leave me a comment in the comment section also please consider joining my Patreon or buying one of my true crime books. All of the links are in the description. I really appreciate it. See ya.