Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - The Dark Rabbit Hole Of Sex Addiction

Episode Date: October 16, 2023

The Dark Rabbit Hole Of Sex Addiction

But this babysitter, who was six years older than I, at the age of six, she molested me. That started the whole ball rolling for me to step into sex clubs and go into prostitution, massage parlors, going to strip clubs. When you used mood-altering substances or mood-altering experiences to cope with pain, then for a season, it works. And then it no longer works because I become, it becomes norm. And so I need to upgrade it. And so that means more graphic, more disgusting, or boundaries that I said I would never cross to get the same high that I once had.

So this escalated. So I began to have fantasies of rape. And it's hard for me to even state that now as a man has been 39 years in recovery. The way I saw myself inside, the damage inside is, I could never have that woman because of, look at me, look, I'm too broken. So I'll, if I can't have that and I want that, I'll take that. When fantasy no longer satisfies, I start thinking about what is real. What would it be like to do that? And so one night in the back of a club, this woman walked by,

man, something inside this snap that said, this is your opportunity to fulfill that fantasy. Hey, this is Matt Cox, and I am here with Gene McConnell, and he is a former sex buyer, and we've got a really interesting story for you and an interesting show, so please check it out. So we just have half a little, little bit of a chat there before the show. and you were kind of telling me, you know, just about, um, about the group that you, you know, work with and, and, uh, you're a little bit about your story, but do you mind if we kind of go back to like the very beginning and talk about start just basically like where you were born a little bit about that, you know, where you went to high school siblings?

Well, the, uh, I was born in, uh, Ventura, California. And, uh, spent my time there in that Southern California until I was a fifth grade. And so I grew up in a very good environment. My parents were pastors. My grandparents were pastors and I could go on. The entire family had some kind of leadership in church environment. And I enjoyed my fifth grade. all the way to fifth grade. But California and my parents wanted us to move to Oregon and kind of get a different experience in just California and the big city, so to speak.

But in my first several years, there was a, I had a blast as a kid, but this babysitter was six years old than I. At the age of six, she molested me. She was our neighbor. She molested me more than once. And I was just looking for attention, affirmation. She was somebody that I played with and hung out with.

And she was six years older than I was. And man, that experience was profound because my childhood just literally got blew up. I didn't know what to do. I didn't know what to say. I didn't know how to communicate it. I had huge mixed emotions, ambivalage would be the word for that, but just the idea that one side of me really, I wanted to be valued and wanted and special, and the other side of me felt dirty, soiled, damaged, shame, and so I didn't know how to talk about it, and that happened

more than once that happened over a series of two, two, three, four years. I'm not sure. Many of the experiences were blurred together. But one thing for sure is that the babysitter said, if I told anybody that she would tell everybody that was my fault and that I'm the one that initiated it. And the feeling of all that feeling of being dirty and soiled and damage was huge in me and I didn't know how to make sense of it and so I committed to never talk about it. I committed to just move on

and never, never, ever let anybody see that part of me. The one thing that really convinced me to just stay silent was that my body responded, did my body responded to the touch, my body responded to the sexual

interaction. At the same time my body is responding to it I'm also not I'm fighting a disgusting and I fell on I was feeling ugly and dirty and broken and so I didn't know how to make sense of any of that and because my body responded to it and it reinforced the fact that I felt that I was that part of me was too broken to be known that part of me is too dirty to soil I can't tell anybody so I committed to keep my mouth shut never talked about it and so I the way I cope with it was as I just become a performer.

So I just did extra work to make sure that people liked me, that I did really good in school. I was a great... Athletics and sports. I'm sorry, how long did this go on? I mean, this was a one-time thing, or was this... No, she did this. I would say I have blurred memories of a lot of different encounters.

I don't have the ability to hold it. a timeline end to every time it happened. But I can say for sure that it happened, you know, three or four times a year at least. And with these three, there was three years or four years that we were there. So after we left, we moved. Then it stopped, obviously. So, but I would say, you know, 10, 12 maybe times.

Okay. Yeah. And the thing is, is that there's a really big, deal on that. I mean, the idea that you, I know that it's wrong. I knew that it was unhealthy. There's no question about that. I grew up in an environment that, you know, educated and talked about and understood that there were adults or older. You don't have sexual encounters. That's for later life. And you're growing up. I knew that. But what I have a heart part was is that there was also a side of me that enjoyed it. Enjoyed it in a sense, not because anybody would

a joy abuse, but because the attention that was being given. She was saying how special I was and that she really liked and that it really felt like she was being affectionate. So I had a real, it was confused as to what is affection here? And

so I I didn't know what was going on in her house. Yeah, well, you know, obviously had some issues. Obviously well, you know, kids don't pass that on unless they taste it themselves, so I'm sure that that was going on in her world. I've never, I don't even know where she is these days, you know, I mean, so I've never

talked to her, nor do I know her story, but the thing is, is that for sure, she was confused herself, and she was somebody I looked up to because when I'm six, you think about a 12-year-old or 13-year-old, she's like adult, you know, she's, she's grown up in my mic, you know, So it certainly was confusing. So I went on and there was this season in my life where I was involved in sports and I was excelling in Little League and things were going incredibly well. And this older boy who my parents, his family was going through a really hard time. And his parents went through a divorce, we're going through a divorce, and he started getting into the alcohol and drugs and some other things.

And he just, my parents decided to help him. And so they brought him into our home. And the day they brought him into our home, he began to molest me as well. And he was six to seven years older than I was. and he was in my bedroom because we didn't have a house where he could have a different room. So he slept in my bed. And that happened for as long as he was there. And it was in and out for about three to four years as well.

And again, confusion is because this guy was somebody that I knew that would, you know, beat up my bullies. We'd go skateboarding together. We'd ride bikes together. We did a lot of things together. He was like a, you know, a mentor. and but slash you know you now is introducing sections of the relationship and again it the confusion was there the confusion of you know what is this i got this neon side i went for you know it's like you know i didn't ask for this i didn't engage in that on purpose i didn't even i

didn't even initiate it but it seems that somehow um people see that and they take a advantage of that. And so that happened for a long period of time. And I was very confused because outside, we'd get out goofing around when we were in school or hanging out. We were best buds and everything was just great. But it was when it just changed when we were in this bedroom. I was going to say it's funny that there was a, and I'm sure I'm going to botch the study, But there was actually a study that showed that women or I'm assuming it was women that had been raped were something like 50% more likely to be raped again in their lifetime than women that hadn't. And there was another study that I remember they had people that were robbers, like criminals that were robbers, look at people walking down the street. and they picked out with something like

85% accuracy which people were vulnerable to be robbed and those people that they were picking out like 85% of the time had been robbed like these were people that had been victims they just you know predators consent a victim

and I think that's that's very accurate because what happens to us when we've been victimized like that is your your sense of confidence is broken your sense of confidence in making that healthy choice. Well, intuition is a huge thing. Huge and people ignore it all the time.

Yeah. And so, you know, I, this happened. I, not only did this boy that molest me for a period of time. I went to a camp for a summer a couple weeks there when I was 12. And the guy that was one of the guys that was kind of. heading the camp, or not heading the camp, but part of the leadership side of it. And he, he molested me. He was 19. He molested me as well the night, the last night of camp. And so it's like, you know, all I did was I carried his baseball bat. I carried his gear.

I did everything around, you know, served and it was kind. And I was looking for mentors, looking for, you know, healthy relationship, not for anything else. said I never anyway asked for that. But the last night at camp, he snuck into my bed in the middle of, what, there was 12 other people in that cabin. But it was like two in the morning and whatever. And so how do I respond to that? There was somebody I respect. There's somebody who I looked up to and all of a sudden now, here we are again.

And so a lot of confusion by the age of 12, I've had this huge exposure to sex as being violating sex that's using sex that is not in any way shape loving and caring and mutual and so I had a lot of damage done very early in my life of what does even healthy look like sexually and a lot of pain and absolutely one of the most important things in this was that I never, ever, ever told anyone. No one. I committed that, man, I can't, I can't talk about this. Just know how will they perceive me?

I mean, if I don't like what I'm seeing in me, if I don't, when I revisit those memories and they did come from here or there, if I don't like that, hell and heck will anybody else. So, you know, heck, no, I'm not letting anybody. So I just re-committed that double down. I'm just going to work art to outdo this crap. And I'll make better choices, quote, unquote.

But when I was at my uncle's house, actually, I think he's more a cousin. But anyhow, I was at his house, and he was somebody who I looked up to, he was probably in this 40s. And a family and all that. Well, I was a where his house playing army and been over his house many, many times. But in the shed, you know, in the backyard was usually locked up. And this time I wasn't. And so I was sneaking and hiding, you know, as we were trying to, you know, shoot each other with BB guns.

Anyhow, so I was in the shed. And when I came into the shed, there was two to three hundred pornography. magazines. So I'd never seen one before. You know, back now I'm, I was born in 55. So back in those days, that pornography was not available in any way, shape, or form except for behind the counter. So you, you had to go to a grocery store and you'd have to go to a special spot or a special section for you to even grab porn or you find somebody who has it at home would be called a spillover effect. And that you would, I would, people would see it there or somebody had thrown in the trash.

So my first exposure to pornography was that the, uh, in this man's house where, uh, I was in the shed that I looked at, I don't know, for hours, you know, I, I quit, I brought the, the boy in that was, that was playing army with. And we sat and looked at it and talked about it and laughed about it. And that happened over and over and over again. I mean, so I'd go over to his house and I'd sneak more. And so I became immediately connected to the pornography. And it was the same feeling. This is really key to me.

It was the same feeling as sexual abuse. It was exciting. It was arousing. It was those beautiful bodies. But at the same time, the way they treated women, the way they handled women, the language that was put around. them, you know, bitches, whores, sluts, and all those other languages, like things I won't I don't even use these days, ever. And so there was demeaning words brought, which I was taught

differently to talk about women. So there was shame and pleasure connected, and that was the same experience that I had when I was sexually abused. And there are a lot of studies out there right now stating that that early exposure to pornography has the same impact of sexual abuse, because it It wounds the ability to see sex in a healthy light. It wounds the ability to understand what it means to treat a woman, how to treat a man, what does sexuality leave in? What is healthy sexuality? And so for a child to be exposed at an early age, when, especially at 12 years old, when my mind is being shaped and molded and my learning, you know, I'm in a very key point in life where I'm shaping how I believe about life and think about women, think about men, at sex. pornography had approved

and you know the material if it was just women being unclothed it would have been bad enough but but it actually you know had women being you know balanced and gag

women being beaten and that could go on and on and on there was a lot of demeaning very toxic very destructive ideas had they those ideas be played out in real life, we'd be arrested for it. Right. You would not be able to do that to a person

and be able to stay out of jail. And yet, they were putting that in a glamorized, sexualized, arousing framework that made it look like, especially as a kid, because they call it adult entertainment, they call adult, you know, this is how adult men treat adult women. This is what sex really is. So it was a very, very damaging education for sure.

On top of already what I was experienced in life where someone had the right to cross my sexual boundaries for their own pleasure. And so at 12, I mean, I just started consuming porn as much as I could get a whole of it. and I would go into stores and I'd steal it. I would go to friends' houses and if their parents had it, or they had it somewhere, I'd find it, we would watch it. There was no such thing in the video in those days. It was back in the day in the wagon days. I'm 67 right now.

So back in the day when Hefner actually started Playboy, I was still a young boy. And so I grew up in a sexual, quote, unquote, revolution and so horn was a big part of my growing up and it's secret though because i was never allowed to consume that my parents would definitely hunt me for doing something like that it was totally anti everything i grew up learning so i was a consumer yeah and then at 16 i made a i made a big step to say no i'm i can see how this is affecting me I can see that this is how this is affecting the relationships and my dating relationships

and that I you know that this stuff doesn't work when you apply it to real life you apply it to real life and people get mad or walk away or or call me names and so I realized that porn needed to stop so at 16 I stopped and went for until I was about 21 I got married, I started having kids, and that first child, my wife was pregnant. Well, we got married when I was 21, and she got pregnant right after that. And so right at becoming 22, we have our first son. Well, in six months of that pregnancy, she woke up in the middle of night screaming and crying. I just sweat all over her.

She was in a field ball position. And she just, I couldn't touch her. I couldn't hold her. I could kiss her. I couldn't do it. She just completely pushed me away. And I thought, what the heck is going on here? And inside, I thought, oh, my gosh, somehow she knows it sees that broken part of me, that I don't like, that I hate.

And so I was like, oh, Lord, this is over. and this is just this is no this is this is done i mean i'd walk up to her she's washing dishes and come up behind her and give her a hug and she'd push me away i'd literally give her a kiss and she'd wipe it off and i and i thought man it's just this is over it's done and reality was was that that baby triggered her own sexual abuse that she had as a child and she didn't even our first war started moving in her tummy and so So this started a whole lot of problems because she was pushing away and she wasn't being affectionate and she wasn't being loving. At the same time, I'm going, well, if she doesn't love me that I'm going to get this somewhere else.

And so that started the whole ball rolling for me to step into sex clubs and going to prostitution and massage parlors and going to strip clubs. and go, I could buy now. So I could go to the pornography, the adult bookstores, and I could buy pornography. And so I still kept it all in secret. So no one had a clue that I was consuming. No one had a clue that I was doing this on the side. And at first it started out really kind of small, maybe once a week, maybe once every two weeks. And then as the pressure, the marriage.

got worse I used the porn and the clubs as a way to coat can I ask a question I mean did you ever talk to her about what the issue was with her

waking up and and having these you know these nightmares and yeah I mean I tried to approach it and she she wouldn't she didn't she didn't talk she just she just was freaked out over the memories now it's the only reason why i knew about the memories being triggered was as later in therapy we were trying to to figure out you know how we can build our marriage and you know i brought to the table that she became non-sexual absolutely had an aversion to sex and anyway she performed um and so

we went to counseling for it and counseling it came out in the open um But I never, in counseling, I didn't tell anybody any of this stuff. I just kept my mouth shut and just put it all on her. You know, I've said that my problem with her is her. That it, you know, really, the truth is, is that when we started looking at it, my view, because what porn, one of the things about what porn did is as an education. And when you learn something and you believe something is true, which is that women was primary need, responsibility was to meet my needs sexually, and that she would be depriving me of love

and care if we were not having sex, and that sex is the never one thing that a wife's role was. And if she's not taking care of my needs, then there I have a right to go outside of that. And that is, you know, and how even in terms of the activities, what I was expecting for her to do, things that I would see in porn and she wasn't doing, which meant that I'm being deprived, I'm thinking that, well, this is what adults do, and you're not doing that, therefore, and you're not wanting to do them. You're not even wanting to learn how to do that. You're totally adverse to doing this. And so I just decided, heck with you. I'm just going to do this myself and keep my mouth shut, not say anything.

And I survived doing that behind closed doors. Not knowing that I was getting worse and that this was growing and this was becoming a huge problem for me. And so every time we started having fights, I didn't even try to work through it anymore. I just stepped out the door and went and did it. And so I had a very successful business. and had tons of money and lots of ability to use money wherever I wanted. So at the height of this, I was probably spent in, you know, three, four, five hundred dollars a week, you know, going.

And so the idea in mind is that you can't, what I didn't realize then was that this escalates. an addiction, when you use mood-altering substances or mood-altering experiences to cope with pain, then for a season, it works. And then it no longer works because I become, it becomes norm. And so I need to upgrade it. And so that means more graphic, more disgusting, or boundaries that I said I would never cross to get the same high that I once had. And so this progressed and continued to grow,

and the relationship was a mess, and the more I got involved with this, the worse it got. So I was very, I was very, I was very, I don't know, the word would be that disgusted with myself, but at the same time, thinking that if I need to leave this relationship and then if my wife would just do these things, our marriage would be fine, not realizing that the mess I was in is really because of the mess. I mean, she could have had, if I would have responded to her in a way that was loving and caring

and understanding, that I could have given her space to heal and entered this with a full presence. but what I was doing was I was numbing out so I wasn't even aware of what she was feeling internally I didn't even care because she wasn't meeting my needs so I wasn't present at all even though I was physically there I wasn't present and so it was my mess really

and a good loving man would have been to walk alongside as a woman and give her the space to heal to figure this out rather than saying if you don't perform, I'm out of here. And especially knowing that, you know, as she began to open up in counseling, the trauma that she went through as a kid was unbelievable. And, you know, I won't tell her story. That's her story to tell.

But it was horrendous. And what she needed was a safe man to actually show something different than what I was showing. I just basically was her father on steroids. So it was terrible. So the idea that somehow if she changed that everything would have been by, it would have been crazy. Now, I needed to change. Yeah, she needed to heal.

There's no doubt. She had any work to do. But it was really in my court to make some changes as well. So this escalated. And so I began to have fantasies of rape. And it's hard for me to even state that now as a man is. been 30, 39 years in recovery, it bothered the heck out of me that I, I struggled with that and that I wanted that and as somehow, as some kind of healthy, normal sexual eye.

When I say that now, it sounds crazy, absolutely crazy, that I would see rape as a normal sexual eye, but when I think about my experience, that all of my sexual experiences growing up were rape and you know and so i i not to make any excuses because there is no excuse to but the reality of me you know spending time fantasizing uh a significant amount of time uh with dreaming and thinking about raping someone as a way to get that sexual ultimate high um and uh with that was the to fear that I the way I saw myself inside the damage

inside is I could never have that woman because of look at me look at look at I'm too broken so I'll if I can't have that and I want that I'll take that were you

and was there any issues with alcoholism I'm sorry with alcohol or drugs or nothing like that no I was never an average raker workaholism would probably be another aspect of it because I

poured myself into being successful at the cost of relationships so I'll workaholism but not not anything else no alcohol no not smoky that drugs none of that

yeah it was mostly because there's because when you view form or in an orange have a sexual encounter there's a mood altering that takes place and that mood altering when you are depressed or you're lonely or you're feeling unloved or you're feeling bored or angry just take this and you are immediately changed into euphoria and so the drug is It's like a drug, and you take that drug with you, because if I'm viewing porn, it's a mood altering to see those images. And he immediately brings you to a different level emotionally when you're looking at.

And even if those images are not things that you would agree with, they are mood altering in a sense of shock, being disgusted even, so that there is mood altering and viewing. Right. And then also kind of desensitizing. Yeah. Like you said, it becomes a, it's an evolution. It's a progression. Right.

Right. And then we're not even thinking about what the message is that it's communicating, you know, like what are they doing to the woman or what are they suggesting about that woman or. So we're not even thinking about below that. But the reality is those messages get planted with the emotional high. and so I it was definitely an addiction and it progressed it didn't stop it started out low key you know you know it's the partial nudity and back in the day and I just continued to escalate over time and when you've seen everything there is to see and then you would start well I started looking at, you know,

bobbage and, you know, things like that. And you just escalate and escalate and you keep crossing lines and crossing lines. And for me, that was, that was a huge line. And so when fantasy no longer satisfies, then you start thinking about what I start thinking about, what is real. What would it be like to do that? And so one night in the back of, of a club. Well, it was a racquetball club, not a sex club. As I was getting out of the car that this

woman walked by and walked into her own car and man, something inside just snap that said, this is your opportunity to fulfill that fantasy. There was nobody else in the parking lot. It was dark. And so I got out of my car, followed her to her car. And I asked her a couple questions and broke the ice and then as she put her racket in the car she had her door open she put her racket in the car i forced my way in the car and i had my hands around her throat full intent to rape and uh she she said to me what are you going to do and she just she was she was pure fear and when I saw

and this is this was life-saving for me and for her is I saw pure fear in her eyes I am I am the person who's her worst nightmare right now I'm creating fear

it says like somebody slapped me across the face and said hello wake up you're about to destroy another human meets life what do you do it. And this isn't fantasy anymore. This isn't some kind of thing you're doing off in the corner somewhere. You know, this isn't just masturbating to an image anymore or to a fantasy. This is a real human being. And the reality, and I know this is going to sound really crazy and probably most people have a hard time. I don't know. But the reality, this is a person. This isn't a piece of meat. This isn't a commodity. She isn't a butt. She isn't a breast. She isn't something to

use. She's a human being. And it came loud and clear through her eyes. And it's just like it's like it worked me up. And I just simply said, you know what? I made a serious mistake and I'm really sorry. And I let her go, got out of my car, out of her car, excuse me. And I walked to my own car. And as I walked to my own car, she got, she drove out and she got my license plates. And she turned me in. And that was almost 40 years ago. And that was the thing that woke me up, though. I mean, there's no doubt that I caused a great deal of damage. And there's no, you know, no cute thing to say about that.

It was, I know I scared the hell out of her. And there's no doubt in my mind that it caused a great harm and fear. Even though all I had done at this point was forced my way into the car, that's the only damage done or thing that I did but I know that it was definitely traumatized there's no question

so when I mean she got you know she gave the information to the police gave a report told them what happened what did they do they came to your house they just to question you or were they ready to arrest you

they arrested I mean the thing was that I admitted to it. I actually, when I did it, I drove home and I set my wife out and I said, this is what's just happened. So I told her, wow, it was blown away because she had no idea of any of this. I mean, literally, she knew that something was wrong because I wasn't, we weren't talking or acting. We were just kind of existing. So it was really difficult to, to tell her, but I knew I needed to tell her because it wasn't no more than 45 minutes later, the police showed up in the door, and they arrested me.

And, you know, I admitted it, and then I got an attorney, and then we went through all this. And I had never had a record or never had never been arrested for anything. A few driving tickets, but nothing, nothing of seriousness. And so we went through court. and I had a five-year prison thing that I was facing, and they ended up reducing that down to 90 days in jail with parole. But then they ended up dropping it down even further, and so because it was first offense,

and they had me go through a whole series workshops and things. So although I think that I got off a little, easy, I would say. But I was committed to never return. In jail, you know, the guys are all going, yeah, he says, you'll be back. You know, people always do. And I said,

don't? No, I won't. This is my wake-up call. And then, you know, they did they just tease me and they harassed me and all that. But I was, that was, that was it. What were you charged with? And it ended up being a misdemeanor for assault, not assault, for aggravated. What was it? It was a felony and it was reduced to a misdemeanor.

Yeah, because all I, what I had done, I had done nothing sexual and my hands around a throat and I pushed my way into the car. So that's all they had to work with. And, you know, I know what it was bad enough, and I know I deserve whatever they gave. And, but I, you know, went through it, and I decided that it was interesting because once I went through it, there was a ton of people that were saying, man, I struggle with a lot of the stuff that you, not to the level that you did. I don't want rating that I struggle with warring or I've been going to the clubs or I've been dealing prostitution on the side or there's just a ton of people that when it came out

open what are you doing to get help I need help and so what was the period of several years of me you know committed to change and get help and determined to figure out what it takes to heal because I don't want to ever go back to this and I was very very very disappointed how counseling was available, what kind of counseling was available. The only real help out there at the time was, is he go into a group and you say, hi, I'm a sex offender, and this is who I am for the rest of my life, and you will never be anything other than that, and everything has looked through as light through that lens. And I just didn't like that because what they did was they pretty much guaranteed that that's what I will be for the rest of my life.

stupidity. Yeah, I made some serious mistakes. Yes, I hurt other people. There's no question. But I can change. And that their life is not just that. And that there are many things about me and that I chair, I love people. I serve well. I'm a good professional. I'm a good dad. And now I'm a good husband. did you stay married no she left she she just let it i mean we we stayed together for our season but she just couldn't hang with what came out in the open um and i understand it brought up her worst memories her worst nightmares and uh no matter what i did actually i was in the the best shape period i could have been in my journey and and uh but she just couldn't she couldn't hang and I would you know I look back on it I totally understand I get it I am no ill feelings towards

her and her decisions and that I get it right as a getting into counseling you actually start looking at the severity of what you did and how it impacted others it was it that's sobering and and I think this is where most people feel in the area of recovery is that we tend to look at we tend to look at what's happened to us and we stay stuck there like woe is me I was a victim you know I had sexual abuse in my story why don't you understand that and we could certainly stay there

and quite frankly need to work there there's no doubt that I was wounded in that I need healing and I need to work through that and I needed to change some of the thinking and but most of the what I find in the offender side of things is they're still stuck in their victim side not realizing that they're reacting out of that pain and hurting others and they're blaming that they're not looking at or taking ownership to what they're doing they're stuck in what happened to them and not looking at what they've done and so it's not And you can't focus just on what they've done either.

You just say that person's an offender, well, look at the story behind it. Look at the reality that that's a human being who has, there isn't a story, there isn't a story, there isn't a story that I haven't worked with. That, I mean, and what I mean is that what, that I haven't heard in who's been an offender who has not been offended. And it's just, there's, they go together. and hurt people, hurt people. It's not an excuse, it's a reality. And so if I'm going to really help someone change their life, they've got to look at where all this stuff started.

And it doesn't give them an excuse while I was hurt, so I hurt somebody. No, that's not what we're saying. Because if we did that, then we give everybody a free ride. No, we realize that, no, if we've been hurt, we better get some help. Don't hold on to it. don't swallow it, don't keep it under.

You know, if you're struggling, you don't keep it under because as long as you keep it secret, it grows. It doesn't, keeping things in dark causes it to grow. So coming out in the open in a safe place, if I would have had a place where I could have talked about this, I don't know if I was, I carrying so much shame, I don't know if I could have talked. The way this came out in the open was a forced deal.

And, but thank God, I look back at it. it now. I'm glad to do it. I'm not glad it happened to her. So there was no, there's no glamour of that. But the reality that it came out for me was my first step for help. And if I didn't have it out in the open, I don't know if I could have talked about it. I don't know if I could have ever said, hey, you know, I struggle with, you know, rape fantasy. Or, hey, I, I, I'm going to prostitutes. You're married and you have kids, really? Are you serious? You, you weirdo? there's such a perception of sexual dis when they're sexual dysfunction involved that people are perverts or weirdos or labels that make it impossible for a person who

struggles to ever talk and the first step is to talk you can't you can't heal what you hide right yeah definitely i definitely believe that you know um so how so after you got you got out of the jail stint your wife you know she hung out for a little bit but it just didn't work out and what did you do did you i mean was this something that immediately happened or did you can i'm sorry go ahead no go ahead i'm going to say did you continue you know this was that the wake-up call and everything you know all better at that point or did was there was it a progression you know the I made a decision when I was arrested that I was going to change I had no idea what that meant though I thought I was just going to be okay I'm turning around right

here this is it done so in jail you know while I was there I made a commitment to to shift and change and when I walk out I'm going to be a different person right I like that said there's really know where to go. No, to know where to go. But I think when I got out of jail and I came back to the reality of a mess relationship that didn't go away, in fact, it just got 20 times worse. So the pain of that relationship and learning that that's how I learned to cope was to go to sex pornography.

So I had, I struggled for a while, not anywhere close to the same level that I did before. The rape fantasy crap has gone. and all that kind of stuff. But the reality was, is that I still went to clubs, still went to massage burlars as a way to compensate for what I wasn't getting in the real world. And it took a while for me to work out what when I was doing and what is dysfunctional and what is not.

Because it was really confusing. I mean, I didn't really know. I knew that what I did wasn't right. And I knew that it needed to change because it clearly hurt somebody else. else, but I had no idea. So it took me, I'd say several years of being in recovery, doing groups, seeing a counselor, reading books, going to retreats, doing intensives, just a whole lot of different things to help me begin to understand how to change. The thing was that most recovery

stuff back in the day, especially, was behavioral. So it's like you just don't do that anymore. And here's what you do to change that. So it was all behavioral. So we just change everything on the outside. But the truth is, is everything that you see behavior-wise is a fruit, is a symptom of something deeper. And if I'm really going to help someone change, I got to look at how did that how did that get started. Where did that begin? So we look at beginning places. We look at where things start. And if you deal with roots, then the fruit is no longer existent. But if you play games with the fruit, in other words, game, meaning I stop this, don't go there, don't run with these people, don't buy that, don't use this, then that's like cutting off the

branch. And when you cut off a branch, all you've done is prune it. And pruning is never meant to get rid of anything. Pruning is a strategy to have more fruit. So when you cut off a branch, the very life that brought that branch about still exists. so the root system then the life that was bringing that branch about goes back into the roots builds a bigger root system and then comes back with more life comes back with more fruit so what it means is is that no matter how many times i said no that i'll never do this again

it always come it always come back and it came back stronger it kind of came back even worse so the idea that i can change the behavior without changing what's going on on the inside is not happening. And so any kind of treatment program that focuses in on just the fruit. In other words, an offender program, you're just going after the behavior. You're not dealing with what's really going on. Yeah, and you're looking at behavior or mod. So behavior modification only lasts for a temporary basis. It's why we see people reoffend and reoffend and reoffend. And people have a really difficult time not saying, there's a statement at what's a offender? Always an offender. so don't give

somebody who's offended any breaks I mean you just there's just one time away from one step away from offending and I would agree with that if all you do is do behavior or not

but if you actually deal with what is really going on what we do and the works that I do we see people completely change if they want to because some people

and this is just reality some people will jump through the hoops but inside they don't want to change they want to stay well they want everybody to leave them alone they want to still do what they want to do and there's now getting them to change and so yeah they'll jump through the right hoops to get the law off their back and then they reoffend

and they reoffend and they reoffend and those people should never see the light of day workwise or they should be in prison so they reoffend and they reaffend they need to be there. And they show and demonstrate that they can't live in society and not hurt people. But especially at child molestation, a child offender, we've seen, we've had those as well,

is that they actually see themselves as loving that child, that they are actually nurturing that child. That's a true molesteredophile. is someone who believes that they are loving that child and what we find is the roots to that is that whatever age they were sexually abused or damaged doesn't have to be sexual abuse but whatever at age that they were wounded they're emotionally arrested and they stop growing emotionally in that area so they still see themselves and parts of themselves as at age so if they were they were molested or they were hurt they were at eight years old then they're going to like kids around eight

9, 10, 7, 6. So they find kids attractive based on the age that they stop growing. And so if they don't address that and they don't face that and they actually don't grow up and take adult things and heal, then they will always want children at that age. Because that's how they, and so they don't see any advances that they make towards children. Right. I was going to say, I was, I don't know if you know. this I was incarcerated but I was at a at the federal prison complex in in Coleman

Florida and at the you know I was at the medium security prison but I was also at the low for a time and at the low there's a like nearly nearly half the compound has some kind of a, some kind of a sex crime. And, you know, although I'd say 90% of them are lying about it, right, they'll tell you they're there for something else. But, you know, it just, it just becomes usually, it's so obvious. And there's such a large group of them that they don't really have to hide it. But I definitely, after speaking with, you know, numerous offenders and, you know, everything you're saying is like spot on and in some cases they would like you said they would actually want to mount an argument that they actually you know loved this child or giving them

affection and that sort of thing and and like you said all of them had been abused as children like i don't think i ever spoke with anybody that hadn't been abused even if they didn't consider it abuse like they were 11 or 12 and there was a cousin or a brother or sister that was touching them inappropriately, even if they were like, you know, oh, but, you know, that happens to everybody. And it was like, well, no, no, it doesn't. You know, and obviously, even if it happens to a lot of people, it had a dramatic effect on them because they suddenly were attracted to 11 or 12-year-old, you know, girls or boys or whatever it may be.

You know, I used to always say, you know, in a real, in a very real way, you know, you have to, you know, you have to feel bad for them because they were victims before they became predators. And I used to say, you know, the problem is that, you know, once, you know, once they became predators, like you, as sad as it is what put them in that situation, you just can't let monster, monster, roam the countryside. I mean, and, you know, it's just such a, such a shitty situation. It is. And I think you don't do this with the idea of mind, well, we just got to let them, you know, they were molested as a child or they were harmed as a child. So therefore, we have to have some kind of, you know, mercy on the consequences.

Mercy on the consequences would actually allow them like a child. If you, if a child doesn't. Yeah, it was just keep going. If a child disobeys and does something wrong, you don't let the child go without consequences. Consequences are important. So then they're creating monsters. Exactly. So consequences are vital to someone's health.

And the consequence is that they spent the rest of their life in jail based on what they did. Then they spent the rest of their life in jail. But can the person change? Absolutely. It does. The consequences, you can't pull consequences in the name of helping someone. You don't help people by enabling that for the messes they've created. And so I would say that, you know, I've had several individuals who had had a prior

history of molestation, of being molested, but also molesting. And they went and spent time in jail. They've done their time. And in there, they did their time, but they did their work. And then they come out and they do the work anyhow, even though it's not required, They went beyond the requirements. Why? Because they want to heal.

They want to change. They want to be different. That person is going to come in an inner society differently. And so the idea that someone who jumps through the hoops as long as they have to and then goes and lives a different life completely once they get out and that different life is back in the same way that they got them arrested. And there's just a walking time bomb. I was going to say, you know, what's funny is that. although sex offenders, you know, have a high recidivism rate, they have a, it's, but for the actual crime, it's much lower. So the actual recidivism rate for reoffending on a sexual crime is much

lower than, let's say, a drug dealer gets out, he's going to sell drugs again. You know, well, not going to, but whatever the recidivism rate, it's almost 90, like, 5%, that he's going to sell drugs. They very seldomly, you know, reoffend for a sex offense. Not that they don't, but they very self. Most of the time when these guys reoffend, it's because of another crime. Like what's happened, I think, is that you've taken them and put them into a position where now they can't make a living. They can't live anywhere. They get desperate. So they don't register, or they steal, they have to steal to survive, or they, they, they, they, they, they, they, break into someone's house or they start doing other things to survive and then they they end up

back in prison well yeah you did you did reoffend but it wasn't for looking at child you know pornography or whatever it may be so you know that wasn't what typically typically i'm not saying i think it's low it's like three or four percent reoffend for the actual original offense you know typically it's something else but the thing is it's interesting um is that when we label someone, in other words, offenders, let's just go with that. Once they're always offended. And then you have a court system that when they get out, that they literally will never get past that label, that they will literally have to live that label out.

I get, I do, I get it. I understand the idea that the society needs to be safe. And there's not, I don't have any qualms with that. But when we say that that is who they are for the rest of their life, and that they never have a chance to ever change, then we set them up big time for failure. Right. And so we forget, and this is really, really big.

This is that when we label people, they are no longer human. They're this label. So we strip humanity away from an individual with a label. It's just a horrible situation all the way around. Like, the problem is, I just don't, like, there's just no good answer. Right. Yeah, there's just no good solution. It's, you know, you've got guys on one side of the fence and just, you know, execute them. You know, you've got guys on the other side of the fence, you know, who are maybe like, oh, they did their time. They should go, well, you know, no. I mean, that's not really that. The answer is probably somewhere in between and it is just, there's just no perfect solution. And the problem is that every, every sentence doesn't fit everybody. It has to be tailored. made yeah it's totally different totally it's a tough situation it is this where see the thing is

though if we know the where i where i what makes my work different than most there's there's i'm not the only one out there doing this obviously but but what makes mine different is is that we look at the roots and the one a lot of i'll hear a lot of people say well we do with root issues as well but actually knowing what the root is and understanding what the root is is really key. So the number one source of any of this is shame. And if we don't look at shame and we don't understand what shame is, then we don't address it and we don't give them the tools to address it, then shame will ultimately win back and they'll be back in behaviors to cover that shame.

And so shame is at the center of all addiction, at the center of all dysfunction, truefully. And so what shame is, is it's a belief that I'm flawed at the core, that there's something really wrong with me, and I've got to cover it. I can't let me be seen.

Why is that so important? Because the number one need in life is to be known and to be loved. So it's the word, into me see. So intimacy is not sex. Intimacy is relational. That you see,

me for who I am and you know me and you love me. That's the number one need across the board, whether that's male or female. It doesn't matter. And what we have done is, especially porn culture, has said that women's need is intimacy and men's need is sex. And so the idea that we go into a relationship and we get married or we're a committed relationship and we decided we're going to walk this out with someone is that the man has a right because he's saying that he's being exclusive. In other words, not looking anywhere else. He's going to pour himself into that one relationship. And if she's not giving him sex, then he has a right because it's a need. It's not like it's, you know, they're perceiving it as just like you drink your water, getting air,

eating food, getting rest. They're putting it in that same framework. So if you don't get sex, you have a right to go outside and look for it somewhere else. The idea that she owes you sex, That whole thinking is really toxic and destructive because now we're not seeing women as women. We're seeing women as are sex. Like, it's no different than having masturbation. Only I found somebody to give it to. So that masturbating through a woman's body,

rather than seeing her as an individual as a person. So intimacy is the need and that both men and women carry it. But when I just need to be known and to be loved, is like breathing air. I need that. And I have shame, which says to be known is the death of you. So the fear, so shame then cuts off what I need. So if I don't get my real needs met, which is intimacy, which is to be known, to have close connection with others, then I reach out to then use things to meet that need. And for porn and sex and all that, I'm using people to get that need met.

And so I reduce something to an object. I use something that won't reject me, that won't hurt me, that won't walk away, that I can use to get that, quote, unquote, need met. So some people choose drugs, some people do alcohol, some people do food, some, you know, gambling. We could go on and out and not. But they use something. It's not connect with something. They use something.

And so when we objectify women, which is what we're, does is and we see women through the lens of their body rather than as a human being as their soul how they think with the feel when we objectify then we're using women not connecting and they're and so shame plays a significant role in causing all of this to happen because if I have a connected life in other words people know me and they actually see my mistakes and they see my laws and they walk alongside me and they support me as I get help and there to help support me in any way they can't, that they love me and accept me and know me, man, that brings my heart alive, that brings, there's, there's connection, there's, there's life there, there's something

to celebrate, wow, and having that celebration of connection is what changes life. And so if I'm going to help people heal and change, it won't be just to stop the behavior. it will be here's how we really get what we want here's what we're obviously that shame is what stops them from getting to that point yep you know like they're not going to reach people don't want to reach out because they're embarrassed and they you know it's um yeah i it's you know this this is this shitty situation yeah it's all the way around like you know you know who want and just like like with in your case you know had you reached out earlier had you not been trying to hide this and felt like hey there's a place i could go there's somebody i can talk to i don't have to be embarrassed about this i need to deal with this then you wouldn't have gotten to that point exactly it would have it would have arrested it it would have stopped it and it would have it would have broken that path you know like like alcoholics a lot of times i mean not everybody has to hit rock bottom obviously some people realize they have a problem. I'm going to cut it out. But I'd say a good, a significant portion of addicts in general have

to hit kind of a rock, a rock bottom to say, hey, I can't live like this. You know, so. Yeah, no, you're right. And, you know, so shame says, shame is a belief. It's not just a feeling. It's a belief. And the belief is that I'm too broken to be loved. And where did that start? Started at six years old for me, you know, the shame, I internalized what happened to me as who I was. And so I didn't want anybody to see that. Now, what I needed in that moment, we bring this, we bring this to an understanding of how it can change as well. This is that at six years old, what did I need? If I would have told my parents, my parents would, you know, they would have cried with me. they would have went and confronted the offender.

They would have done what they needed to do for me to get help. My parents would have not in any way she performed said, oh, wow, you're too dirty to be loved. We're throwing outside. So it's not what they would actually do, but it's what I perceive them to do. It's how I perceive myself. So I go into Heidi, but what I needed to be at that moment is that little six-year-old boy

needed to be known. That little six-year-old boy needed to let people know that he was hurting. Someone just took his innocence. He's confused, and he doesn't know how to perceive himself. And that's where the lies began. The lives start in those experiences early in childhood, and they grow. And then when they grow, they grow based upon how I use things. And I don't want people to know that I'm doing this to cope.

And so I keep hiding, and I keep hiding, keep hiding, keep hiding, keep hiding. And really, what I need is someone to know and help and support. Someone who would care about me, any at. And so shame sabotages our need for intimacy. And that is the number one need. And if we could help people actually learn how to live a connected life, how do you open up, how do you set boundaries, how do you have conflict, how do you risk your heart, how do you trust, how do you be vulnerable?

Because when I was sexually abused, being vulnerable was like, That's crazy because when I was vulnerable, people took advantage of my innocence. No, I'm never going to be vulnerable again. I'll take control. I'll always be in power. I'll always be. How do you do that? We can't do that in a relationship.

You can only do that when you objectify someone. You make them an underling. You make them somebody you can control. So I'm in power. So where did this lead you? Did you work with a group? or yeah what it did was that the change the change happened and it's kind of started it started at a very simple event and then it just kind of grew and that event was that when i was arrested and i spent

time in jail and i literally lost all my relate i lost all relationships there was a few people that stayed there but for the most part uh everybody i thought was a friend was gone and i quite frankly, I don't want to play the victim here and say, well, what was me in that? The reality is I lied to people. I broke trust with people. I mean, it just, uh, the, the lifestyle I was living behind the scenes. I get it. I understand that, that it was tough for people because the person that they knew me to be was not the person. And so, uh, it was deception. It was betrayal of trust. So I get why they walked away. So I don't want to say that somehow I'm some kind of victim in that. But the reality of it is is that

I couldn't be real and be open and for fear of how they would handle me. And they lived out my greatest fear. And so I just I just got worse. For the first part, I was I was closed off. I pulled away. I was still going to the clubs. And this guy who I had known for a long time since I was a kid. He was a pastor of a very large church in California, and he used to come and do some of the retreats that I would go to in the summertime. And in a long story short, he called me one day and he said, hey, I haven't heard from me a long time, you know, why don't we get together? And he lived about three hours away. I said, no, I got so much going on. I don't have really have time. He just wouldn't take no for answer. And he had no

idea that I had been arrested. He had no idea that I got through any of this. And so finally he talked me into it. So I said, okay, I'll come down. And so I, I had three hour drive. I'm thinking, okay, I'll talk about the weather. I'll talk about sports. I'll talk about the Dodgers. I'm not talking about anything serious. I'm just not going to have any real conference. conversation and so I come into the to the office and I sat out and and I had my speech so to speak and so I started talking you know I said talked about the weather how it's you know it's nice and hot just a bunch of things and then I don't know maybe five two minutes going by and then he did that he said

so how are you really doing and I and I just I norm for whatever reason I to this day I don't know what the heck happened except for that I decided to just let it out and so I just literally poured I mean not just a little bit I just like vomited I mean vomited all of this stuff you know everything that I all the stuff I'd never told anybody I just put it all out there I'd say I was there a couple two to three hours I don't know I'd have no idea I lost time I lost I just

I wept I had snot run out of my nose I It was just, I was at best, literally. And I got it all out, and he gets up from behind his desk now. He's between me and the doorway. I'm over at the corner. You got nowhere to go. And so he's walking towards me, and I'm thinking, oh, my gosh, he's going to throw me and throw my ass out of here.

And so I stand up, and my fists are clenched, and I'm ready to deck him. Because one more person that does what the others people have done, I'm taking them out. I've had it. And he comes up and he just puts us wrestlers hug on me. And, I mean, literally, just gives me this strong hug, and he buried his head in the side of my neck, and he just began to weep. He just happened literally. I mean, tears were flowing. And I'm thinking, what that?

Heck. And he just said, I'm so sorry that you've never had anybody ever really love you or accept you for your, I'm sorry all those things, those things happened to you. And I'm here to walk this out with you. Now, to be honest. I'm up 20, 9, 30, up 30 years old, somewhere in there. And here's, for the first time in my life, up tasting, you know, was we just described intimacy. Intimacy has nothing to do with sex, has zero to do with sex.

Intimacy has to do with connection. And here's this man who has heard my worst, literally, my worst. And he's embracing. and no sex, no garbage, just embracing. And it profoundly shifted my heart, profoundly. Now, I had a lot of learning to do about what he just gave me because I thought, what the heck he did, whatever he was given, I want more of that. I don't know what it was what he just did.

There's no magic wand there. What did he just do? Because it turned my heart around inside, what it did. was it gave my heart life. It gave my heart with the will to change, the will to do something. And so I jumped over a journey of getting small groups and started sharing

and I got a counselor and I really start digging in. Over a period of time, I realized now that what he gave was the first taste of what intimacy is. And so it was his interaction with me.

that started the bull really role for recovery and change. And so, I mean, I built a life where I have not just one, but I have a ton of people who would know me inside and out. They're not hidden. And they will walk alongside me, they support me, and they love me. I do the same with them. And so when you have a heart that's full, and I mean full, meaning not how much money I got,

Now, how many titles I got next to my name, not how much toys I've collected over life. But when I actually have a heart full, full of what connection? I was created for a relationship. I'm a medical relationship. And I'm not a human being. I'm a human doing. I'm a human being. And so no doing compensates for the lack of being, which is connection.

And so when I tasted that, when I got that, that that was, change for me. That was a move for me. Now, it didn't change everything, obviously. I had a lot of work to do, but it gave me the energy, and that's really key here. Because I've put tools in front of people, I've given people plenty of chances to change, and all you can imagine, and them not having the energy to pick those tools up and do it is huge, because people still think, or carry shame inside that somehow they're too broken. They never change. They can't get past is you don't understand, look at the mess that I see. And so by having intimacy where we really know it, we actually give people the energy to actually

change. And they put that energy towards learning and growing and healing. And so I believe that all my heart, based on, you know, 30 plus years now of helping people, is that we help them learn how to connect, which means intimacy. How do you open up the real stuff and build relationships around you? And where life happens in your interactions, you won't go back. Why would you settle for hot dogs when you could have steak and lobster? You won't go back.

You just won't. Doesn't mean you won't be challenged, but why would I give up what I've got when I've wanted all my life? Then there's a lot of us to even know how to put words to that. You know, we don't know what we want. But we know there's something better, that there's something out there more than what we're experienced. And the reality of it is it's the shame that we carry keeps us from connection. So we break the shame by being open. We break the shame by allowing people to see us.

And then we learn to change those belief systems that says we're shit, that we're no good, that we don't matter. And we turn those around. We began to change it by the relationships around, the people that communicate, I am worth it. that I do matter, that I am important, that I am special, that I have uniqueness and it's to be celebrated. So it changes everything. So the game changer is breaking shame, giving people the tools to build a healthier relationship in their life. And it doesn't mean you have to have 30 relationships. Just have one, one life-giving relationship. You don't need that to be an extrovert to to do this, but you need at least one person who knows you with no protection, with no

hiddenness, no secrets. Because that's where a real connection happens. When someone knows me and knows my flaws, knows my fears, my weaknesses, and they know my strengths, my gifts, my calling, if you will, and they know what I'm passionate about, and they love me, man, that's That's a light to celebrate. That gets excited. When two people know each other like that, then that celebration of, wow, we have connection. Sex is the result. Healthy sexuality is when it's a result of, it's a fruit of that connection.

Sex doesn't create connection. Sex is a fruit of connection. And so why people go to sex is because sex is, I mean, there's no hiddenness. there's the you see the body you see fully and there's nothing hidden so but it so sex has the illusion of intimacy but the truth is you're going to have sex with someone totally no clothes everything's nothing hidden and you still walk away not knowing each other i mean i did that for years i mean doesn't make no so no matter how many times you have sex with someone and you see their body they see you they don't know each other they don't know your history you don't know them

So intimacy is not sex, but they can come together only when, well, you know, in a healthy way, they come together when you have the connection first, that intimacy, and then sex becomes the outflow. But pornography just simply says, no, you just, you can do it this way and that way. And if you're struggling sexually, you just add spice to it. You just end another partner. You just get new toys or you do this. You do new positions. And reality is none of that actually brings long-term satisfaction. Actually, what brings satisfaction is you work on your connection.

Your sexual relationship changes. So people who are struggling sexually in their relationship, it's not about finding out, you know, more information about what positions and all that, although I'm not against it. You're that. It's that you really lack what to celebrate. I mean, you don't have nothing to celebrate. So the lack of things to celebrate is the lack of sexual connection. And yeah, you can have orgasm. You can have all that and still feel like you aren't really going anywhere. And why is that? Because the lack of connection. So you build connection and the sex becomes a natural outflow from that. And that's missing. It's missing in all of the culture. We keep thinking that sex is what makes us all connect. And that's putting a cart before the horse. So I say that to say, if we're going to help people heal, it won't be that we help them with a sexual part first.

It will certainly be there. But the bigger piece is addressing the shame and giving people the tools on how to live a connected life. Okay. that was a lot about hole sorry that's fine I feel like you feel like you've said that before you know you've got it got it down yeah it makes all the difference in the world bro um

it just does and it's made the difference in my well I mean I've been out you know almost 40 years I'm not gone back not never been arrested again I've never been in that world again you know I'm done and I never will and there is so much to life there's so much to offer my life is different but you know i still have to face consequences of those choices back in the day um you know i still have my some of my my kids still are wounded from that that i'm still having to work through um i lost a marriage of 27

years with that you know that first marriage and um it you know there's a lot of damage done but now when I look though as I've restored my relationships and I've worked through the pain of all I have an amazing woman in my life and we know each other we walk each other we walk alongside we celebrate we're part our true partners

and oh yeah we still have messes but we know it we work on it and I could I'm on top of the world relational and I feel like life is what it should be you know And I'm 67.

I wish I would have known this when I was younger. But it's taken a lifetime to figure it out. But we do that. We bring people in. We do groups and we do these retreats. We're called pursuing the hidden heart. For men, we do it called authentic manhood. And we deal with what is the masculinity aspect.

And we look at what it takes to heal the broken areas of our life. We look at sexuality. We look at pornography and, you know, talk about all that stuff. Talk about being a father and a husband and just living in the world as a man. What does it be doing healthy? So we do these retreats and workshops and people come out going, wow, this has put me on a whole different trajectory. And they don't walk away going unchanged. I'll never be the same. They walk away with, wow, this profoundly helps me see where I need to go and what I need to do. And I tasted something I've never tasted before, and I want to learn more. And so this is a journey.

Nobody gets a magic wand. Nobody gets a quick fix. But we can turn things around and make things different. And if they do the work, absolutely change possible. I'm a living example that as many others that I've worked with. that your behaviors, let me just say it this way, your mistakes that you've made, the things that you've done around,

do not have to be the definer for how you live your life out now. Right. You can turn your life around and you can change it if you want. I hear you. I did 13 years in prison. I got out like four years ago, you know.

Good for you. I mean, I'm really proud of you because it takes a lot of strength to do what you just did. Really? You know, it really does. And not let people, you know, pigeonhole you in. And, you know, look what you're building. Look what's happening. I feel like they have pigeonholed me, though.

I run a true crime channel. Oh, brother. While I talk about his crime. I really did it. But I did it to myself. Well, who says this is where you end up, right? Yeah. No, I love, I love what I do. I mean, I talk to, you know, I, I, I felt, um, you know, very free in prison, you know, because, you know, I wasn't lying to anybody. I wasn't running some kind of a scam or a fraud. I wasn't concerned about, you know, being arrested. And I didn't have to pretend to be, you know, to pretend to be like an honest, businessman when really I was committing fraud and, you know, sit around with my friends who were all

normal people, decent citizens. And, you know, I didn't have to be a wolf in sheep's clothing. You know, I could be a wolf among wolves. And I felt good being that open. And so I've just carried that on out here and turned it into a way to make money, you know, make a living just, you know, having people tell their stories because these guys have amazing stories. And, you know, sometimes are amazing stories of recovery and triumph and redemption you know and sometimes there's just you know horrific stories that maybe they don't have a great ending you know they're still in the middle of their journey you know but but they have stories they have interesting stories and and i have yet to meet anybody who's gone to prison it doesn't have it at an interesting story they might not

have a six hour story it might be 45 minutes but they've got they've done something that was that was unique and interesting, maybe horrific, you know, maybe ingenious, but they've got a story to tell. And I like it when they come to me and I talk to them and they can tell it honestly because, I mean, I'm not in a position to judge anybody. So it's a, it's a good living. You know, it's a good, it's a good way to make a living. Well, the thing is, is that you, you can take what has happened to you, the things, the mistakes you've made and things that have happened, and you can have a redemptive story, a redemptive framework. In other words, what has been, could have been a defining moment, which would have been for the rest of your life, or you've chosen to use it as a

stepping stone, a place where you can choose to have impact on lives and make a difference. The stories make a difference. People's stories are so important without the stories that all we have is objectification. All we have is labels. Right. And by having stories, we get what's behind the eyes, what's real. And stories will always be the most important part of anything. So what you're doing is providing a real platform for people to take a look at their own lives and learn. Or the loved ones that they have their relationship but you put humanity to the issue that's good

good now well listen I I appreciate you coming on do you have anything you have anything else you feel like we haven't covered or no I think I think one what I think it's wrapping things up

um is the idea that you know objective uh objectification um is really a reflection of my inability to connect. And so

our fear of women are afraid to be, a fear of being intimate is such a big deal. And if we're, if we really want to see change happen for all of our lives, is learning to connect with,

people rather than objectify you rather to try to control or and that whole idea that control meaning that I don't want people to know me I I control to keep people at a distance so they don't get too close to expose my stuff and if you're living authentically if you're in other words I'm living in the open with at least one person I don't have to do that with every human but you let certain people in and other people you don't because they're toxic and they're and you don't want any harm done to you anymore, but learning how to pick those safe people and healthy relationships and be connected

so that I can learn how to not use people but connect with people. And that is a commitment that I've made is that I always choose, I choose to walk a life of connection. And, you know, you go on a gym and you know sometimes women are almost wearing nothing and you can choose to objectify and look at that and fantasize and all that

or you can choose to move past that and see that there's a human being standing there and let go of the old objectification thing and see the person it happens in everyday life everything that we do is either based on using or or connecting and be a person who pursues connection be a person who chooses to love people care about people rather than use people and that's been my journey now is that how do i use the remaining part of my life to connect to heal to empower to help people change yeah so thank you for the time i've had and which is good enjoyed it hey i appreciate you guys watching do me a favor if you like the video share it share it to somebody that

will find this interesting and somebody that maybe you think needs it also if you liked it hit the subscribe button if you haven't already hit the bell so you get notified of videos like this and leave me a comment we'll leave any links that Gene has in the description box so you can get in touch with him if you need to or get in touch with the programs that he supports and I really appreciate you guys watching. Thank you very much. See ya.