Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - The Dark World Of CyberStalkers | I Met My Murderer Online

Episode Date: October 2, 2023

The Dark World Of CyberStalkers | I Met My Murderer Online

It was in prison for 13 years. I go, it's not a big deal. She's, they don't send people to prison for 13 years because it's not a big deal. And I mean, she's like really loud. I'm like, I went to mash.com. I went to Tinder. Like, I get kicked off with three different dating app. They go to a baseball game.

He gets drunk. They go back to her place. And the next morning, her car and her are missing. But her phone, purse, wallet, everything's at her house. This guy that she had been dating for a month was homeless, an alcoholic, got drunk, killed her, drowned her in her bathtub, chopped up her body, and so based on the rapper, he was able to look up certain, like, delis in New York City that had that specific wrapper. Google imaged all of the restaurants, found the specific one that he was sitting in, and he was able to say, you are at this exact restaurant. and then he walked a hundred feet across the street to sit and eat it at this spot. I think people in general, if they're, if they're sharp, they can fool you.

Yeah. And honestly, I'm such a huge believer in intuition. Yeah. Something doesn't feel right. It's not right. Like, like something's wrong. Hey, this is Matt Cox, and I'm going to be doing an interview with, Courtney Bell and

Jillian Lee Garner and they have a podcast called I met my murderer online check out the interview. I listened to the episode the last episode

and you know it seemed it's funny it seemed really good like it's heavily well it's not super heavily edited because I didn't hear any I know it was really edited well because you do in there are interviews with with different um what do you want to call subjects or witnesses or yeah yeah participants yeah i mean we definitely have you know

psychologists and um lawyers come on different attorneys from the case um yeah but we try to get as many different opinions about it and perspectives as possible and in order to get as much detail to Right, the victim's husband. Especially because, you know, Jillian and I are the experts. We are the one sharing the story with the audience. And we are weighing in essentially in our goal is to weigh in in real time. So we can give our thoughts as to what we would do differently, what we want to do to the future to keep ourselves safe,

rather than trying to present this is something that we are incredibly knowledgeable about and know what could have been you know with Smith it's done where you're sharing the story right um

so I have a question so how did this all kind of come about like well maybe first um I'm sorry Jillian how did how did you end up I guess what do you got you both in L.A.

Yes I'm born and raised in L.A., Courtney's from Michigan and we met in college together and then I actually so I met my murder online started as a TV show and I was actually one of the reenacting actors on said TV show and about a year after I filmed my episode which was actually Meredith's episode I was the reenacting actor for playing Meredith and so about a year after I filmed that I was reached out to because they wanted to take the podcast in a different direction. And they wanted it to just be less NPR, more conversational, a little

bit of banter. And I said I have the perfect person. And it is Courtney Bell. And she is absolutely fantastic. And she's just been a joy to be a partner with. It's been, I hate to say fun, because it's really hard stories. But to go through this, I wouldn't want anyone else. by my side well Courtney how did you two meet could how we I mean we were in theater school together and so I feel like part of being in theater school together is you're the grown into a massive you know having 80 friends all in one day so I can't remember the exact day that we met because Jill is two years younger than me but I feel like we had an instant connection right when we

got there like and Jillian is truly one of the most talented actors I have ever seen perform in my life like look her up you guys and watch your things and follow her um so i was really drawn here because i was like this is a person that i can learn you know so i was so grateful when she reached out to me just so we can have something else to work on together yeah um so why i i understand so you were you were kind of you know thrust into this or it was but well we were asked to audition basically right Okay, but I mean, it kind of just kind of came about, right? Like, it, you didn't, it wasn't like you said, hey, I've got a great idea for a podcast.

No, because the podcast was already. Right. It was already happening. They just decided to take it in a different direction. And, yeah, and they, they reached out to me. Right. So that's what I'm saying. It's kind of thrust upon you.

Yeah, it was a serendipitous moment, you could say. Yeah. Were the both of you already interested in true crime at all? Well, I work in podcasting. So I was kind of already in this space. So I think they just kind of connected dots and was like, Jillian knows the show. Jilly knows the podcast space.

Jilly might be able to make this a good show. And Jillian knows the perfect person to an almost part. So, yeah, it was a very serendipitous kismet moment. And I jumped at the opportunity as to Courtney because this is, we're the target audience. We're the exact people that need to hear these stories, need to learn from these stories. And that's kind of what we're trying to do is to have it be the audience just like our friends. Like we have these conversations with our friends constantly. Did you send me your location?

Oh, can you send me whose Uber you're taking? like can you let me know when you're home like these are all daily practices and we just kind of want to tell the stories to a broader audience um because 4.76 billion people use social media like about 60% of the world's population is using social media now so it's just more prevalent than ever to make sure we're safe and we're cautious and we're where? Is it, is it like three out of five or two out of five relationships are now started through dating apps? Something like, wow. I mean, my best friend last year married her husband and they met on Tinder. Yeah. Yeah, I hear it more and more every day. I wonder what the

actual statistic is I know it's high. I was like, wow, that's like, you know. Yeah. And it's climbing. I was going to say initially I had heard it and it was like, this is a few years ago, It was like 25% or maybe one third. And then recently, I think it was like, I don't know what it was. It was even higher. And I was like, that's higher than it was a few years ago. Yeah. And I think it'll just keep climbing.

But unfortunate truth is, and Jillian, correct me if I'm wrong, run this. But it's, uh, we have, it's around, it's over 10,000 abductions happen every year through a dating app. and thousands of sexual assaults just in the United States have happened with the rise of dating apps. So, of course, you know, there's so much beauty to not only dating apps, but having Instagram, having Only fans is wonderful, having access to getting apartments. You're getting, you know, new tools on Craigslist.

But there's also this other side of now we're trying to figure out of keep people safe while we watch this thing kind of grow out of control. Yeah, that's true. 16,000 abductions and sexual assaults from dating apps in the past, like, just in the U.S. Did you, okay, I mean, so, like, you know, try and stay vigilant. Like, is that part of the, part of the episodes that you kind of talk about that? Yeah, I'd say every episode kind of has something new to learn. Like, Pottlesma, he was killed because he posted, he accidentally posted,

his address along with all of, well, he accidentally posted his address while he was purposefully posting all of the material objects he had just bought on Rodeo Drive and his trip to L.A. And so, you know, that episode would teach the audience, like, I should not post my address. I should lock the Airbnb I'm in if it allows. There's just so many different things. Whereas, like, with Jenae Gagne's story, you know, she was an only fan's person, persona. Yeah. I don't know. And she, like, her address was found through gift giving.

And so it just, I would say every episode kind of talks about a different aspect of how to be safe using social media or just the internet. Right. Did you guys ever see my favorite murderer? I know it. Yes, yeah, I know it. Yeah, it's, they're two, I don't know what happened. They were everywhere, maybe three, four years ago. They were, they were huge.

I don't really sure about them anymore. It's one of the top podcasts. Is it? Yeah, my podcast, yeah. I thought it's trying to be. Yeah, I mean, I'm in their doubt. I just remember it was just, everywhere a couple of years ago.

It was the two comedians that talk about their favorite, it's still their favorite murders. But they are, they are honestly hilarious when they're talking about it. But I want to say what, do you know what the statistic is for women that, or for women that watch true crime? it's it's like outrageous it's like 70% or something oh yeah of women that watch yeah I think you're

like 35 to 55 female is like the main target audio it's insane it's insane it's insane I was think oh sorry you go no go ahead I just is silly but I saw a post the other day it was a conversation from a therapist that was basically explaining if you were a person who sits down at night and you're aware of relaxing is listening to a crime podcast or watching a crime documentary you should see a therapist like that is one of the initial thing for them that they would be like this is a diagnosable thing because you should not find comfort in stress and that brings up you grew up in a really stressful environment and we need to talk about your anxiety levels and how to manage them because that is not normal you know i blame i blame late

night TV because I feel like when I was growing up if I wanted to fall asleep with a TV on it was NCIS it was law and order SVU it was just like the most brutal murder and I'm just like so I think I think we're a certain generation where it's like we're just so um desensitized to it I think and that's even to say that now we can have comedic true crime podcast Like, I think that says something to, to society. I wonder why women are so attracted to that. Because, so, take, you know, my podcast. I mean, I don't, I seriously doubt that you guys have ever seen my podcast.

But, so let me give you the skinny is, basically I talk about just crimes, but, like, I'd say 99% of the crimes are, are crimes. like, you know, bank robbery or fraud, most of it's fraud related, or someone who was ripping off ATM machines, or it's 99% is, and none of them are violent. Like, I think I've had one, well, I wouldn't, I don't know about pay. There's, there's, there's millions of dollars. You know, or even, even bank robber. Like, these aren't. Oh, yeah. What a go. So, I think I've had one guy on that that killed someone but it was a justified homicide

it was the guy attacked him in his own house and he had a weapon and he shot him you know and they they did they arrested the guy and it was like two years before they finally just dropped the charges he was like wow take me to trial or this guy attacked me in my own house and I shot him I mean that's that is absolutely

stay in your ground. There's no way jury in Florida is going or in South Carolina. That's a constitutional, right? You have. Right. So, but, you know, it was a new prosecutor and whatever. So he, anyway, it was a great podcast. So, but other than that, it's mostly crimes that are more thought out.

And as a, and I don't know, as a result of that or not, I don't know what the reason is, But the makeup of the people that watch my podcast, it's like 93 to 95% male. Interesting. Isn't that not? I, you know, I will say, I think it makes sense to me in some things. Obviously, I'm just theorizing here. I absolutely know fact to base this off of. But as a woman, you have to be so hypervigilant, unfortunately, living in this country.

Like, you know, I know when I walk down the street, when I get out of my car at 9 p.m. And even if I am, you know, only parking one block away, I pull out my, my pepper spray. And it's the neighborhood that I live in that I know that I'm comfortable with. If I'm out walking my, you know, my roommate at the time, I'm having a dog. I'm making sure that I'm looking over my shoulder. I'm making sure that I'm not being followed home. I'm making sure that when I stand in a hotel room, I bring a lock with me to an additional lock to put on my door because I have to travel a lot for acting work. And you don't mean that Amazon link. It will. It's like $15 and you don't know where you're staying. And it's more common than you would think of people breaking into home

hotel rooms because for whatever reason, I guess it's a little bit more accessible because there's so many people in and out. And so I wonder how much of the reason behind so many women watching or listening to these crime podcasts is because we're already grown to being a little a bit more anxious and therefore concern about what can I do to make sure that I'm keeping myself safe and the situation that I would have even never expected would have been dangerous

whereas I think men have a little bit more privilege of walking, you know, walking around with like less concern about being taken in the middle of the night. Yeah. I think it's also interesting that like women love True Cry

but for your podcast specifically, it's not about being killed. It's not about being followed. Like maybe, and again, I'm just theorizing, but maybe females are like, I mean, I'm not going to rob a bank. Like, I'm not. I know.

I need this. I need this information. Yeah, I don't need this information. Yeah, I don't need this. They're like going for to be able to be in here. But they do need to know about, oh, this girl's husband cheated, and that the wife killed her

and her son like that's it's certain like I was listening to that whole thing I was like if I had a beef with anybody it's the husband you gotta go yeah right teeth like Scott free well what what kills me and I was thinking to myself okay so by the way you know that most women when they murder someone it's by poisoning yes I did know she got a gun so it's not like First of all, you could have poisoned him. Secondly, you didn't even do that. You went with a weapon. You could have shot him.

Like, this guy, like, it wasn't like, well, look, no, no, she had the opportunity. No, she created the opportunity. She always had the opportunity to harm him. But she loved him. So he needs to stay alive because I love him. Yeah. I mean, it's hard because I've listened to all of Janair's video diaries. She left so, like, tens and tens of video diaries that her husband found.

And I listened to them. And they are so heartbreaking because it's hard to hear a murderer kind of justify herself or try to justify herself. But there's also the added layer of this woman was in a 25-year marriage and she thought she was deeply in love. like she was like this is the lover she was really like I'm sure she was deeply exactly and so

I think for her it was easier for her to think about I am going to take away everything that could make him happy rather than I'm going to take away his life because I think she loved him too much to kill him but wanted to hurt him in a way

that would last forever and I hate to see But I feel like this is a pretty common thing in society, no matter what gender you are. Like if you, I've seen guys watch their girlfriends talking to another guy and the guy immediately is like, hey, what are you doing? Like, back away from my girl. And she's like, I was actually just going to like grab a, you know, I was going to the bar to grab a drink and this guy started talking to me. But I think it is a lot easier to blame the person who you feel is a threat to you than the person they love. Yeah, that's true.

Yeah, that's funny. I never really think of the other person. Like if my girlfriend was flirting with or seeing someone else, I've never really up. That guy's gotten, he has no obligation to me. I know. I mean, yeah, this is a big problem that I have with, I'd say my female friends in general.

Even myself, when I was cheated on at 18, like I was a kid, but it was like you hated the girl. You hated the other person because it was like, how dare you do that? When in reality, like, I should just hate him, which I learned later. But that is, it's an interesting first instinct that a lot of females I've noticed have of. I do, I would want to push back on that just a little bit because I do find that it's common for men too. I think maybe it's just handled a little bit differently. If I don't, like, maybe the person thinks it's like fight, you know, like, but I was speaking for myself.

No, most, I noticed most guys do exactly that. They think, oh, man, that guy, or that guy, I'm like, that guy, that guy's guy, he just, this was a pretty girl in the bar he talked to. Yeah, what does this guy care about your relationship? I haven't even know you. Yeah, like, that girl, like, she didn't care about me. And, like, I shouldn't expect her to care about me. I should be pissed at my boyfriend or my husband.

Like, yeah, but I get that of like, but I love him so much. I don't, I don't want, I'm going to. project that hate onto someone else. So that's the trick in that. I have absolutely been there. I would rather be bad at it of like the seven girls that my boyfriend cheated on me with than my boyfriend who cheated on me. It doesn't make

any sense. I know, but when you're in it. Yeah. I think it's so hard. Because it's embarrassing. It's embarrassing to be like the person I love that loves me cheated. Like you don't want to be like oh, I'm done. Like he lied to me. I didn't see that. Like

that's harder to deal with than well fuck that bitch like you know what i mean it's that it's it's it's the woman in the trailer part talking to the police officer and he says you got to file charges he's beating you up and she's like but i love him but he is beating you up he's getting you i know yeah people are love is the most complicated part of being human i agree it's stressful let's cut it out let's just stop we should just marry our friends. No, I think that would be too hard to now.

I'm going to marry. I'm not going to staple. Just cut out romanticism. Yeah, like we're partners financially and that's it. So, I don't know. So what, where are you coming up with these stories? So we're lucky where we have a team and it was a TV show before. But the thing about this podcast is that,

It's all online, right? So all of the crimes have to be from like the past 10 years, basically. And whereas other true crime podcasts, you know, they can go to the 70s or the late 80s and like just fine. They have just so much just a treasure trove of crimes. Whereas with us, it kind of has to be a little more delicate because they're very recent. and yeah so we're kind of always have our eyes and ears out which Jillian you just explained that so much better than I did right when we started the podcast like cut that out because that was terrible not what you said what I said but exactly we we are provided

we are provided the stories of these people's tragic murderers but at least for me I was not a person who consistently listen to crime podcasts I'd be more likely to listen to survival podcast, somebody who was, like, trapped in the wilderness for three weeks or survived being stabbed. Like, I just, like, I need something hopeful. And so our podcast, we really try to differentiate ourselves of having a slightly more NPR-esque approach with having, you know, as we discussed before, people from the actual crime speaking or having other people with different expertise coming in while still having the conversational element. of you know telling the story rather than coming in of like this is something that happened 60 years ago and this is really fascinating to us like no we really want to make sure we're coming from a place of what can we do to help keep our listeners safe okay um that's just for some reason it just reminds me of people watch my podcast all the time and they're always like you know you're you're so inspiring and i'm not trying to be inspiring

No, like you're picking up on me. You're like, I'm a dude in a soundproof room. What is it? Not, I'm just talking. So brave. Yeah. But it's funny because you're going to, if you just listen to any story, you know, you're going to, like anybody who's listening to those, listen. The guy in that podcast and his girlfriend or mistress, whatever, never saw that coming, you know.

You know, to me, it's like, hey, this could go bad. Like, I'm in a situation that's similar to that, and I don't see this happening. You know, like, like, this is, that's, that's something that you just would never contemplate. She's not yet threatening. She's not saying, I'm going to kill you. She's not, he doesn't know she's bottled gun. He doesn't know any of this is happening. He's thinking it's an amicable, you know, contentious yet amicable divorced on a relationship that didn't

work out. So I think you always have to be kind of, you know, hypervigilant. Just listening to the story alone, people are going to come up with, hey, I need to be concerned about that. Yes. Yes. And I was going to make a point where if even one person is listening to our podcast and is like, oh, I'm about to go on a trip, maybe I shouldn't post the Airbnb I'm at. Or, oh, I know that the person, I'm with is married. Maybe I should end this. Or like, if one person can listen to these and change their life in the slightest way

just to be a little safer than we did our jobs, 100%. I have a friend who never tell anybody when he goes on vacation. He'll tell you when he got back. Yeah. What if I get robbed? And I'm like, well, maybe you shouldn't have friends that you think would rob you.

That's right. So have you thought about that? And he's like, I guess, yeah. I've never thought about it in the other direction because I'm always thinking, what if something bad happens to me on vacation and then no one knows that I'm there. But, yeah, I guess I do see the other thing,

maybe not wanting to publicize that you're gone. Yeah, I mean, I think there's a difference between let me text my friends and tell the, I'm going to be gone. Can you water my plants or something? And posting on Facebook or Instagram for all of your followers being like, I'm in Hawaii and my own empty.

Like, I think, I think the problem is that people want to share everything immediately and get the likes and the views and they love it because it's in our, it boosts our serotonin and now we're just addicted to it. And I think that addiction feeds our urge to post immediately when we, when we really don't have to. You can still get those views. You can still get those likes if that's what you're chasing when you post it when you're back.

I think we are so used to immediate gratification now that we just need to realize that it doesn't matter. Social media can be fake. You can pretend that you were on your vacation last weekend now. Like it's okay. Yeah. Yeah, I was going to say I'm constantly looking at like the YouTube, like, um, the, you know, just the posts and, you know, how they're doing and that

sort of thing. And last night, I was actually laying, you know, and it is. It does make you feel good. You know, you does. It is definitely, I mean, obviously that's everybody knows, knows that, but, you know, knowing it and stopping yourself from doing it are two different things, you know. Yeah. It's a conscious effort. And I do it. So instinctively, like I'm just, I don't even realize I'm doing it. Last night, I was laying in bed. I remember my wife leaned over to me, looked at me, and she just put your phone out. And I just went to...

We've been doing that at my... If we're watching me together, we'll be like, be present. Be present. She said, you're peeping it up. She has nothing changed from five minutes ago. And I was like... You're right. Unless they felt this... Oh, my chat. There's a lot of people in it.

That's a lot like then you want to know who are they like it's hard I know it's hard it's hard to not look at it first thing too when you first wake up yeah oh yeah because it can ruin your whole day it could just you could wake up see one tags and be like oh my god anxiety wave yeah I wouldn't I would not know that I've not memorized the terms about this in any way but I know I know it Like, whatever you wake up with your nervous system, whatever state that you're in within the first five minutes of waking up, is how the rest of your day will go because your body has to fight to regulate from that moment on. And if you give yourself five minutes to just deep breathe in the morning or just stretch in the morning, like something to regular, regulate yourself before you dive into social media is apparently really beneficial. I'm not doing that that's not what for happening it's you gotta try before I'm stretching I would wake up for I'm stretching

I would wake up with so many text messages and I feel like as a person who I feel like a lot of my friends go to me for emotional support because I love talking about feelings so I do the same I will wake up with like seven text messages of people saying please call me the moment

you wake up. I just like I had a really bad night and I'm like, okay, I have to do this, this, this and this and this today. But I have to call this friend, this friend and this friend and they'll be mad at me if I don't make time for them, but I have to make time for all. I was like, no, that's not working for work. And then it's like five o'clock and you haven't called them yet. And you're like, oh my God. And then they're ready. Then they're at exactly. And like my phone, no one sees me. My phone, you will not hear from me until 9.38. Unless you're banging me, I don't feel bad. Yeah. Yeah, women are back different than guys.

I mean, guys heard, you know, bro, if somebody said I'm feeling vulnerable or something to me, I'd be like, wrap some dirt in it, bro. What are you doing? I literally saw a conversal yesterday. It was for a car company. I can't remember what car. But it was like four guys in the car. One's getting married and they're like, they're like his groomsmen.

They're on the way to his wedding. So they get in the car and like his best man's driving and he's in the passenger sea. and they're like, oh, this will be so fun. Then he's like, do you have the ring? And his best room's like, yeah, of course. He's like, okay, cool. And then he, like, goes on his phone. And then he, like, goes on his phone for a second and then puts it down.

And then all the guys in the car get a text. And it's a group chat saying, I love you guys. And then they're like, oh, buddy. And they go and, like, pat his shoulders up. And I'm like, wait, you couldn't say that. But how loud? You have to text them in the same. That's so sad.

That's so bad. Who also be surprised how many of my guy friends are the ones texting me in the morning? And it's because they don't want anybody else to know. It's like, because you're so right, they would never go to their other guy friends about it. So, it's sad.

I was like, that's the saddest commercial I've ever seen ever. I don't even know what to say about that. I was going to say, I went, I did a speaking engagement, recently and I was in the airport and I have a friend named um was his name is Isaac but everybody calls him Zach anyway um he was texting me and I I texted him and he was like how was it bro like if you need to call me and you know decompress or you know

whatever I text him back I go decompress what are you talking about that's a good friend what's a really good friend wow he's not comfortable doing that again so funny um Oh, God, he kills me. You need to be more vulnerable with your friend. I do. Listen, the problem is my wife is not a touchy-feely person at all. She's very much. Like, if I were to say, I don't know, I'm just feeling.

Like, if I woke up and she's like, you're all right? And I'm like, I just, I don't know, I just feel depressed. Like probably every couple of months I get into a little bit of a slump. I just feel depressed this morning. She will say, well, we're up some dirt in it. You got to do this today and that today. She's like, you could be depressed later. Oh, okay.

Just kidding. Me and your wife are not the same. I'm like, okay, yeah, I don't know what I was thinking. I'm sorry. Oh, come on. I love to have sad days. Listen, my wife works as a marine mechanic. So she works on boat engines all day.

Oh, my gosh. She grew up. I mean, she grew up with like, Well, no, she just has a sister. Well, it's a very male-dominated field. Yeah. Yeah. She, no, everything about her whole existence is male-dominated.

How does she feel about this missing submarine? I haven't even asked her. It's funny, I talked to, I had a buddy that runs a podcast who was like, bro, have you heard about this? He's like, how horrible is that situation? I think they have like 20 hours left of oxygen. I don't know where they are. And, yeah, they're here.

Yeah. And like, now the only thing. that they can do is, like, here for them. So just hoping that they're, like, banging on it. What? Yeah, we have to find the, like, whales find each other. I'm not. So I don't, I, you, I don't need any adventure in my life.

They paid $250,000 each. And there's a father and a son. That's one family, half a million dollars dying in the ocean under the, and the worst case scenarios that they're trapped in the Titanic. They made it all the way down. Well, it was at the bottom of the ocean. Oh, my God. Contact an hour and a half into an eight-hour voyage.

So they could have made it down there. We have no idea. We don't know. I mean, we don't know. But the word thing scenario is they went down there. They were like, oh, well, let's just look anyway. And then got trapped, and now they're dying where? Thousands of people died.

See, this is the kind of thing. Oh, I'm not about my day. opening my phone because that gives me so much anxiety. I'm like, I need to breathe before that, like, before that pops up, that Google notification pops up my eye and handle it. Yeah. I'm thinking, like, I'm doing all right compared to those people. Like, I'm doing okay.

I don't need to go to speak. I don't need to. I don't need to climb Mount Everest and see all the dead bodies that I pass. Like, I just don't need to do those. I also don't really need to get on a roller coaster. I don't need to bungee jump. That's just me. But like...

I like those things. My perfect, adventurous day is trying a new food and getting a massage. Like, that's... That is what I need from life. No submarine. No. Not even a... Also, my friends aren't allowed to do that either.

Like, if I have a friend who tells me that that's something that they want out of their lives to go to outer space and, like, it was so nice knowing you. But I can't have second anxiety. Think about where you're at. I can't. Like, I can't. I can't do it. You can't really do anything, though. Don't ever change your mind in that, please.

I will. Honey, Brodow was skiing and he died. I don't do that either. I don't see either. It's not happening for me. Yeah. Um. Come here. I can tell you

it's a funny story really quick Courtney and I have been talking about how parents will put it's graduation season right and so all these parents on front lawns are putting up banners being like congratulations

Michaela on graduating from this specific high school and going to this specific college it's like oh so now they have your child's name, school, address, photo, photo, awesome. And my mom listened to an interview that we did talking about that and just sent me the banner she made

for me doing the exact same thing. Did you not remember that? No, I was like 17, 18. I was like, what, nine years, eight years? I think you're a heckling it here we go. Yeah. Oh my God. Your interview reminded me that I made a banner for your graduation,

not knowing that it could be unsafe when I posted it on social media. And I'm like, yeah, I don't think any of us thought about that in 2016. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think people are thinking about it now. Yeah, exactly. Um, yeah, I'm not sure what I would do with that information,

but yeah but I hear you I guess if you were some kind of you're a good person if you're not thinking too deeply about what you would do with that in for yeah I mean you're not you know I don't know about that but I hear you um I hope you wouldn't so hey so I have a question you guys do you you you don't know you haven't watched my podcast or anything right not no not yet No, okay, so, um, so do you know why I do a podcast on true crime? You were involved past, in the past, in a past life. Oh, yes.

A few years ago. A few years ago. I just got out of prison about three, four years ago. Damn. I don't know why that. I feel like that was the fact that I registered when we were meeting last week. and then this week I've just, I don't know. Yeah, I did like 13 years in federal prison for bank fraud.

Yeah. To be blunt, you caught people, right? I mean, it's basically it was banks, but yeah, that's certainly part of it. That's cool. Well, I mean, how would I put this? Respect. That's cool, boss. I mean, like, it's banks.

Thank God for people like her. I mean, you kill someone, like, I don't know, it's a bank. No, I heard someone's feelings once. A few times. Maybe a few people. So, you know, I do like the con man thing. I used to shy away from that. But I think that's a very general term.

And I think it definitely applies. Sure. You know, so because there's certainly an amount of like, you know, you have to go up somebody, you have to give them a fake name. You have to convince them that you work somewhere, you don't work, and that this is what you intend to do with the money and have them show you the house or rent the house or do whatever it is. So you're certainly interacting with people. But ultimately, the goal is to borrow money from a bank, you know, to get a bank to lend you $300,000 or whatever it may be. Right, right.

And, you know, but that typically I always think of, that's more to me of like a fraudster, someone who presents them. with fraudulent documents. But, you know, so it initially starts with like a con, but ultimately to get the bank to lend the money, you have to provide them with false documents. But all of it has to make sense. So, but, you know, when the, when my booking agent mentioned this to me

and was talking about the online dating, so it reminded me that when I got out of prison and before I started dating my, white you know there was a period of time maybe six or eight months where i was dating different women well i actually wasn't dating them because i went online i went to match dot com i went to tender and i went to oh what was the other one that kicked me off like i got kicked off with three different dating apps because i was saying hey my name's matt kaw I'm currently I'm a true crime writer I'm also an artist like this was before I started the podcast or anything I just gotten out of prison and so I went online and I was very honest with everybody yeah and at one point so I went on I had a few different dates initially when I was very honest I was getting the you know you go back and forth a little bit over the course of a day or two and then it's like hey I was like hey by the way you know be you're

point where it's like, hey, you want to meet the person. Like, look, this is great, but we should probably meet for Starbucks or something because, you know, having a little, you know, text message relationship is really not what I'm interested in it. I'd like to meet you. And then they're like, you know, yeah, yeah. And I'm like, look, but before we meet, I should probably tell you that I recently got out of prison.

And I would just, you know, very briefly, give me a very brief synopsis and I'm more than happy to go into any of it with you. And they would go, wow, listen. I actually had this. happened one time. One of the whims that, listen, that honesty is going to go a long way with me, and I really appreciate you saying that up front. And I would like, yeah, never heard from her again. And I remember thinking, wow, like, she didn't have to respond at all. She could have just, you know, walk me. But she actually went and wrote this nice text message and completely

So that happened multiple times. So then I decided a girlfriend of mine at the time was like, listen, stop being honest with these women. She was, you let them, you need to meet them first and then tell them, meet them, go on a couple dates with them. And I was like, that's never going to work because they know my name. She's like, no, they only know your name is, you know, Matthew. I was like, it doesn't matter. At dinner, they're going to ask my name. I'm going to tell them my name.

They're going to Google me. If they like me at all, they're going to Google me. Well, they're going to Google you to find out your Zodiac sign. So, yeah. For regarding, coming up. They're just going to be like, wait, this is not just like Zodiac. Maybe you're still a perfect match and it's worth sticking around. Well, listen, I have.

Yeah, I am. Oh, I am, but I met my wife. Do you tell her when you first met her? She figured it out because we met in the halfway house. Oh. Right. She had just done five years in federal prison. Okay, cool.

But there was, like I said, there was that six months. She'd gotten out of the halfway house before me. And although we kept in contact, because we flirted in the halfway house. Cute. But she got out very quickly. And there's a huge age difference. There's like 18 years difference between the two of us. So she's way younger than me.

And so I didn't, you know, think that much. much about it. Like I, I, I did think about it, but I, she also, you know, she also had made several cracks and I thought, eh, this is never going to happen. You know, this is probably not going to happen. So, anyway, that one girl that I went on a date with, I went on a date with her, and maybe 10 minutes into the date that this. So I met a girl, we ended up going on a date. I didn't tell her. 10 minutes into the date, you know, things seem pretty good. And I said, hey, listen, I said, I want to, I feel weird not saying this, but I've had a couple of bad experiences. So I want to go ahead and mention this real quick. I said, not a big deal. You know, I said, but I said, I, you know, I do have kind of a past. Like I, I recently got out of prison and, and I said, you know, a few months ago, I'm kind of starting my life over again. But I want to be honest about that. And I said, it was just bank fraud. And she was, she was, you just got out of prison. And I went, yeah, I just got out of prison. And she was, she was for bank fraud. She was, long when you were in prison? And I went, it was in prison for 13 years. I go, it's not a big deal.

She's, they don't send people to prison for 13 years because it's not a big deal. And I mean, she's like really loud. And I'm like, and around like this. What do you? Like, okay, you know. And she's like, I mean, I said, okay, well, it's really not a big deal. It's just bank fraud. It's just bank fraud.

They sent you to prison. It must be a big deal. And I was like, well, I'm not saying it's not a big deal. I mean, but I'm saying it's not like I was driving around with someone's body in the trunk of my car. And she's like, I mean, listen, she got so loud after about two minutes of this. I said, you know what? I said, we're done. We're done here. And I said, I'm obviously, I said, well, I'm not bouncing back from this. And I said, and you're, you're really not handling this well. Yeah. So. You did 13 years of prison. You don't need someone to. Right. More on it. Like that's not. Yeah. I had. So like I said, I had a couple of bad experiences. And then a couple of, I really had nothing but bad experiences. Anyway, at the same time, I ended up doing a podcast.

podcast and, you know, like things drastically changed. You know, they started going the other way. And I, and I ended up going on a date with that with my wife now. And we started dating and that worked out and everything was great, you know. But the dating thing was horrible. The online dating thing was horrible. It's, yeah. I'm interested to hear your perspective because you didn't grow up with dating apps. You experienced it before and you experienced. after and like you're a man so most of like what I hear from dating apps is like from my female friends I'm curious to yeah to hear what you thought oh yeah it was you know it's it's it's rough because these you know I what you know that like women men swipe that like they're that men are it's all all right interested interested interested and women are like no no no no no no No, no. It's like, wow. Like, this is, this is rough. But yeah, it was just very, I think that women, they have a, they really, there's really a high bar. Really a high bar that I just don't, I don't know who's, who's meaning that bar. And the idea that, you know, the whole, and then the whole felon thing, like I have so many, there's so, there were so many strikes against me. Like, I got to a point at one point, I remember. I was talking to my friend Stacy, and I said, honestly, I said, I am seriously considering

making a fake Instagram page, a fake Facebook page, and using a completely different name, all new pictures, all new, no, and that's what she said. She said, now, don't do it. Don't do it. I said, look, I said, don't. It's that bad. Yeah, that's, yeah. And she was like, yeah, but ultimately, if I, if that girl likes you, she goes, and then a month down the line, you tell her that. She's got to be so hurt. I'm like, it doesn't matter. I'm never going to get there to begin with. Yeah. I mean, that's the thing of like the right person won't care or the right, the right person will know how to handle it. Yeah, I mean, I've not had luck on dating apps at all. Yeah. I did, I want to check in because Jillian, you had a meeting at one. I don't know if you

saw my text. Do you stand my, my phone, my, my call got canceled. Okay. Was it like an online dating thing? They canceled. So it's my client. My client canceled. But yeah, the scary thing is that a recent statistic showed that 10% of sex offenders use dating sites. So that's something because it's not like you're on hinge. And it says drinking, yes, smoking, no.

Conviction, Ellen. And it's just, they don't specify. In fact offenders, too, you can look, it's very easy to look them up, assuming they're using the right name. Well, yeah. And also these are like only the sex offenders that have admitted to using dating sites. So that statistic is probably a lot higher. Not a lot higher, but significantly.

So, yeah. And one of our newer podcast episodes, It speaks about a woman who was divorced. She was 40 years old, had three kids, and she joined a dating app. She joined OKCupid and started dating this guy and dated him for a month. Like they were actively seeing each other. They go to a baseball game. He gets drunk.

They go back to her place. And the next morning, her car and her are missing, but her phone, purse, while everything's at her house. So her mom comes, her ex-husband comes because he's dropping off the daughters. And they're like, we can't find her. They text this guy that she's dating. He doesn't answer. Come to find out, long story short, this guy that she had been dating for a month was homeless, an alcoholic, got drunk, killed her, drowned her in her bathtub, chopped up her body, and, like, put all of the parts in separate recycling bins all around Seattle.

Yeah, this is our episode that's coming up on Monday, and he claims that he doesn't remember doing any of these things. Yeah, and they were dating for a month. And Courtney, they were like, how do you not know he's homeless? Like, how, but, like, how would you find that there's just... Yeah, I feel like how... don't, you know, I think it's actually, we don't want a victim blame her at all. Like, she trusted what it's oddly, it's oddly understandable, which because you would think that it, I feel like it's maybe a little bit easier in our age group. Like I find that if I'm going to date somebody, I know, I have at least one mutual friend. But I feel like it's a little bit different in a different, if you're not in the like the young millennial Gen Z experience. It's like if exactly as you were saying earlier, if you put on a fake name and you don't. give your entire backstory and put up fake images like you really don't know who's you know who

you're talking to i have a question about your time in prison did you notice that a lot more people that were coming in had crimes related to the internet what you mean the area you mean like like actually like broad a sentence like oh i found this girl on Craigslist or, oh, I, you know, stole from something I saw on Facebook Marketplace. Like, did you notice anything where it was like, oh, that's, that's a different way of going about that crime that's kind of new because of the internet? Well, um, I, I think general question. Yeah, because I didn't, I think that there were crimes that started happening and I started note hearing about that weren't really crimes when I was out there or there they had you know

they'd obviously just started doing them more internet based but it was the same type of crime I'll give you an example for yeah um so you know uh there's a the the name they gave it was the drop it's called it they call it the drop like that's like the dark world kind of you know oh he runs he does it he does the drop well the drop is basically it's income tax fraud so I get your social security number and your full name, and I file for your income taxes before you can. And so I get a check for $8,000. Well, when it was initially being done, it was all paper. Like, guys are mailing it in.

They're getting a check back. Well, of course, you know, as things became automated, you know, through the, you know, through the internet, people started filing online. So they're filing online. And then they're getting the money wired to them on green dot cards or, you know, prepaid debit cards. Yeah. So it became more and more web-based crime. And of course, you know, they can also put up kind of backstops, you know, kind of wait to stop it. But, you know, these guys get around that.

And then the ways they get around it are also internet-based. They start using, you start hearing about socket servers and different types of, you know, using spoof cards. Like there was no spoof card when I was out there. There was, and so there were more and more frauds where you were hearing about, I was like, well, how did you do this? They're like, oh, I used a spoof app. So they thought this and they thought that.

Or I had it overnighted to my house and, you know, and then I just were overnighted to someone else's house and I just waited outside and I got the prepaid debit card out of the, out of the mailbox. And so now I have a prepaid debit card that was mailed to their house, but I grabbed it. And I was like, how did you know to do that? Oh, you can follow the track. You can track it the whole time on the website. And you're like, oh, okay.

So there were all these little things. There was a guy one time, and I've mentioned this conversation on my podcast a few times where the guy was telling him kind of pitching his story like, hey, you know, because when I went to prison, I wrote, I was started writing guys true crime stories. That was one of the things I did. I wrote like eight books and about 24, 23, 24 different synopsies of true crime stories. What, um. Book deals, you know, I was doing all this for Britain, too. That's crazy. So I, that's why when I got out, towards the, towards my last few years, guys are telling me,

you need to do a podcast. And I was like, a what? Oh, yeah, because you were a person for 14 years. You were like, what's a podcast? I mean, YouTube had just. come out a year before. I'd never been on it. The word podcast wasn't even invented until like 2010 or 11. So you just heard the word Instagram and you were like, guess I'll figure that out later. Exactly. But you talk to guys, guys are, but guys are coming to me saying you need to start

a podcast when you get out and tell true crime stories. You're a great storyteller. And I was like, okay, I don't, what's a podcast? They're like, oh, well, it's kind of like a, like a radio show. And I was like, oh, it's live. And they're like, no, it's kind of like this. And they start explaining it makes no sense to me. I was like, but like you said, I'll figure it out. Yeah. So I remember, so guys were constantly coming and pitching stories to me.

Because I'd gotten some guys in Rolling Stone magazine and optioned their film, right? Wow. And so now guys are thinking, hey, everybody thinks they have a story, right? Like, I've got a great story. You got to help, help me out, write my story. I was like, oh, what's your story? Yeah. So I had a guy one time tell me about his story was, I think he got a guy.

like half a million or a million dollars by defrauding um i uh apple but what he did was he would have people open up a corporation if you had a corporation you could go into the apple store and they would give you like 10 phones on your corporate account wow so he'd get the 10 phone he would then pull the sim cards out and then he'd send them overseas for like five you get 500 bucks a piece. Yeah. And so these people, he would pay those people like a hundred bucks. They'd make like a thousand or two thousand dollars for their, you know, sometimes they'd open up a couple different corporations. And he'd send them off. I think he did it to the tune of like close to a million dollars, half a million to a million. Well, when he's explaining it to me, I remember he kept saying,

you know how in the iPhone, you know how on the iPhone, you know how on the iPhone? And I finally stopped them and I said, bro, I said, stop saying that. I said, I said, I've never seen an iPhone. Wow. And so no one even snuck them in? Like you didn't even see him? No. Oh, no.

And I'd never seen one other than being maybe on TV. They didn't come out till what, 2009? Yeah. The first ones were the first. And they weren't like hugely. They were popular, but they weren't like everywhere. Yeah, no. So.

Wow. That's crazy. Yeah. I'm sure there are certain crimes where you're just like, I literally have no idea what you're talking about or how you did that. and I can't wrap my brain around it. That's so wild. Yeah, the technology these days and the people that, I mean, the things that these kids are capable of.

Courtney, actually, we were talking about this recently. There's this video on Instagram and, or it was a TikTok. And this guy posts a sandwich. He's in New York City and he's like this which I've ever had in my entire life and I'm gatekeeping it. I am not telling you where I am. That was the TikTok he posted. a guy duet, do you know what a duet is? Yes.

Yeah, so he basically like duetted it and was like, I will tell you where that is. He saw the photo of the sandwich, saw that there was a little bit of a light blue wrapper and then took the portion above the guy's head and like kind of looked at that and saw what kind of building it was. So based on the wrapper, he was able to look up certain like delis in New York City that had that specific wrapper. Google imaged all of the restaurants, found the specific one that he was sitting in. And he was able to say, you are at this exact restaurant. And then he walked 100 feet across the street to sit and eat it at this spot. Nice.

And then in addition, the way that he did it, he sat at the exact table that the guy was sitting at and took the same amount of bites out of the bagel and laid the bagel down on the wrapper in the same way. Why just survive back to school when you can thrive by creating a space that does it all for you, no matter the size? Whether you're taking over your parents' basement or moving to campus, IKEA has hundreds of design ideas and affordable options to complement any budget. After all, you're in your small space era.

It's time to own it. Shop now at IKEA.ca. so she's just gone out and so that we can see that is literally the same yeah it's what's crazy and it's it's scary to think what people are capable of because you're like oh that's a funny video but the idea of like a celebrity posting you know a video of them and they're in their backyard they're like you know I'm just enjoying a day you can't really see their property but people are able to look at the sky and go, okay, look at the telephone poles

that are there. How are they placed? There's a tree exactly in between these. And they're able to find people. It's nothing. Did you see the documentary Don't fuck with Kat? Yes. It's so good. Yeah, it's

amazing what people can do. Exactly. And those are just Joe Schmo's. Those are these people like you and me just at their computer on Reddit, just like, I'm just going to look on Google images and Google Maps and I'm going to find everything I can. And it's like everyone's a PI now. I think that what drastically changed from when I got out, one of the things about my crime is that my crime now, I realize my crime now where I had to go in the bank. Like

there was just no way for me not to go into the bank, not to show my face, not to open corporate accounts, not to meet with lawyers and doctor, or not doctors, what I mean. lawyers and closing agents and real estate agents like I had to meet with these people in person the way it was but now I my crime can be done by sitting in a Starbucks with a laptop I can I can view the house rent the house open the bank accounts apply for the loans from the banks close the loans remotely with using remote notaries, notaries, I don't know what that is, notaries at the closing, because you don't have to go to, in most states you don't even have to go to a closing in where you do it remotely. Yeah.

And then have them wire the money to the bank accounts that you've opened and then have that money transferred on to prepaid debit cards or, you know, whatever, prepaid cards or do anything by crypto with it, by gold, have the gold shipped to an abandoned house or to a, how's this you would. Right. I mean, it like my crime could be done completely remotely now. Yeah. And, you know, so that's one of those things that's just like, like, there's, there's no aspect where anybody has to see me at this point. So. And to your point, you could be a totally different person. Like, right. Well. Yeah. I mean, it didn't, I mean, as far as like like identities are concerned, it didn't matter anyway because I had fake identities. I had fake path to work the head. Right. Right. say fake, I mean, like, they weren't fake. They were, I walked in the DMV and they gave me a driver's license or they gave where I, I got a, I, the state department is shut. Yeah. Yeah, the U.S. State Department issued me almost 25 or 24, um, I've had 24 passports in different people's names. I had 27 driver's licenses in different people's name. Wow. Yeah. But you don't even need to do that. I don't. Can you cry? Yeah. Yeah. Listen, I had, I got so many tickets as a guy I went to driving school as him. One time I stole someone's identity and then I changed his, legally had his name change. Why? I just want to see the process.

I didn't need it done. I didn't need to do it. But, you know, you never know. I just, you know, I'm bored. Screw this whole guy is. I'm fine. That guy's fine. they're like your name is

not James it is and he's like the whole lot of me last name. I think he needed his last name from Eckert to Johnson and it was just to go just to go through the process I just wanted to deal with the process because I figured at some

I was kind of trying to figure out how to create an identity that didn't connect to anybody right you know so it's like part of that process is maybe I thought maybe one of Maybe it's getting somebody's identity, if not using it, and then altering their name, and then maybe getting a new social security number issued to them. Like that would ultimately, a different name, different social security number.

How would you get a different social security number? Because even if you change your name, wouldn't it still track? It would still track. But keep in mind, my fear was that this person might die. So if I were, let's say, I started surveying homeless people to get their information because they're not, they're not going to. going to come across the fact that they're not at work right so if i interview you if i interview and what i did to do that was i would survey them i'd say i was a i would say i worked for the salvation army and we're taking we're taking surveys to determine where we place our next

homeless facility and it pays $20 cash right now and they'd be like yeah what do you need bro and i'd go here's 20 bucks and then they'd answer the questions then i'd go online and i'd order their birth certificate social security card driving record where they went to height their high school transcripts and I registered a vote in their name then when I got that information I'd go into a DMV in a state where they'd never had a driver's license and I get a driver's license issued to me then of course I'd get a passport because why not um and then yeah I mean they're not going anywhere but I figured you know what I need to do is like how do I get this like I still have this guy's name I can change his name and then I would my plan was I didn't get this far because I ended up getting arrested you know this was a like it was just little things I was doing but yeah that far well I think it would have worked what okay so here's here's how you can get your social security number chain one obviously federal government a judge can say this person needs it for identity or for safety purposes the other thing you can do so for instance the witness protection program

Oh, right. Okay. A judge will sign off saying, look, where they're changing his name, he's getting a new social security number. Or if you go to law enforcement and if you were to say, hey, I have identity theft and you show law enforcement where you've had your identity stolen, you have a police sport. Let's say six months later, you say, hey, I cleaned my identity up, but they stole it again. So if you can show three or four times over the course of a couple of years, you can go to, you can go to Social Security Administration and show them the documentation and they will give you a new Social Security. Right. Because the idea is that someone took their social security numbers. And they're not giving out. Right, right. It's becoming a lifelong problem. So if you did that and you change your name, essentially, you've now getting, you could go to another state and get driver's license, a driver's license, everything with a new name. if that homeless person dies, like, first of all, most of the time they die, they don't even know who they are.

Yeah. You know, they don't have criminal records. So a lot of them die and they're just, you know, okay, this is a homeless person, he died, and then they bury him. So I thought that way I can get a new identity. Another thing is stalking. If you're being stalked and you can show repeatedly that someone has followed you to multiple addresses, they, you can also request social security change.

But these are things that take years and years. Yeah. So getting a fake ID, fake passport, fake documents, what did that all cost you? Wait, what do you mean? Like, I'm assuming you paid someone. 13 years. Like, I'm assuming you paid someone each time you had to steal an identity, or did you do it all yourself? No, no, I'm a hands-on guy.

I, so I, I, I would, like my fake ID from someone, but you just like, no, no, no. What I did work, DMV. I worked at the DMV. It costs me $25. It costs me $20 to get his information because he, in mind, I want to trick the person into giving it to me. I don't want him to know he gave me. Right, right. He's not thinking, he's not thinking, hey, this guy's using my identity, no.

Right. He's thinking I did a survey, I got $20, and two years later, he doesn't remember doing that. So once I get his information, I get an ID or a driver's license. Once I have the driver's license, I then apply for a passport, and the U.S. State Department issues me a passport. And I've traveled on these passports. Like I've been to, while I was on the run, while I was number one on the Secret Service's most wanted list, I went to Mexico, Jamaica, Greece, Italy.

Croatia. I mean, I went, you know, and this is, so I'm walking through passport control, giving them a passport, and they're like, hi, Mr. Eckert, how are you doing? I'm doing great. Yeah. How are you? And they're like, business or pleasure. I'm like, pleasure, you're on vacation.

You're like, oh, all right, you know. Damn. That's wild. So I guess what would your advice be to someone? who's trying to be safe on the internet. I don't know. It's such a bad experience. I felt like they were being too vigilant.

You know, the problem is that I think people in general, if they're sharp, they can fool you. And honestly, I'm such a huge believer in intuition. Yeah. Something doesn't feel right. It's not right. Like something's wrong and it's probably better to be safe and say, hey, you know, like, hey, let's meet it a public place. Hey, you know what? I know this is weird.

Can I get a picture of your driver's license and send it to my friend? Like, let's face it, that person, one, if they said, no, I'm not going to do that. I don't feel right about that. I got it. I totally get you. Invasion of privacy. I understand. It was nice meeting you.

See you. I have no problem giving anybody my driver's license. Yeah. So if that's odd. So if you wouldn't do it and you understand that I'm a woman or I'm a man and I feel odd about the situation, something's not right. And you don't want to do that, something's up. Let's go to the next one. And if the person really was thinking about harming you, he's probably just going to move on to his next victim.

You're not going to stop that guy. All you're going to do is have him move to the next house. It's like putting an ADT, you know, a little sign in your front yard. It's like, do I hit that guy? who I know has an alarm or go to the next one. I'm just going to go to the next one. Yeah. You know, because that's all you're really doing.

You're not going to, you know, grab these guys and get to throw them in jail. You're really just saying move on to your next victim. Yeah. Somebody's going to get victimized. So you say, like, don't be shameful about it at all. Ask for whatever information you want before. Why not?

I don't see anybody being offended by that. Like, if they were, you know, you probably dodged a bullet. If somebody was like, well, what's a big deal? What's the, okay, something's up. Like, you've got an attitude. Like, you should be on your best behavior. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

And I don't know. Luckily, like, I feel like people in my generation kind of get it. Like, some guy was like, oh, can I order you a drink? Like, because I was running like three minutes late. And he was like, oh, can I get you a drink? And I was like, no. Right. And he was like, why?

I was like, because I like to see the bartender pour it. Right. And he was like, oh, I didn't even think about that at all. And I'm like, I doodle, but I have to. I have to think about these things. And now there's things that, you know, if you go up to a bartender and you ask for an angel shot, they know to give you water. And if you ask for, I can't remember what it is. I should know it off the top of my head.

But if it's like, oh, an angel shot, like with ice or on the rocks or something, then they know to call. Yeah, they need to call the police. And I think that's such an amazing thing that all bars are doing now. but yeah it's scary out there what I looked for what I would talk to guys and when I was in prison

because listen I'm really interested in unique stories because I heard so many of them it's like if you're like you're a poor black guy that was raised in the projects and your mother's kind of

maybe she's doing tricks on the side and you don't know your father or maybe he's in and out of jail and he's a drug addict. And that story is, you know, tragic. And what's more tragic is probably that it's, it's so common. Yeah. So stories like that, when I would hear them, I was like, you know, I get it.

But what makes it unique? You know, like tell me something that makes your story unique. Because, I mean, it's horrible. And I know there's a story there. But it's like mom's stories. Like, I've heard them all. They're just, yeah, I'm done with mom's stories. stories. Like, I've never written a mom's story because I'm just not interested. Yeah. So many movies. And that story was like, okay, tell me something unique. So what was it, what makes it interesting? What makes it different than that guy over there or that guy, that guy? And that's what I thought. So I always waited for that. Like, if the guy came and said, look, this is the story. You're like, okay, okay. And he was like, and we were working with the head of the task force. We grew up with this guy. We were friend that he was telling us what drug dealers to hit. And we were robbing them. And we were robbing them. And we were. And we were robbing them. And we were. And we were.

him with him. I was like, you're telling you we were working with the police to rob drug dealers. And he's like, right. And he got busted and went through it. Right. Then you're like, now you've got a story. You didn't have it before. And that's how I felt when I listened to your episode. I was like, okay, there's an affair. Something bad's going to happen. This woman's going to kill her. I mean, I thought the wife's going to try and kill the husband or is going to. But then you were talking to the husband. And I thought, well, somebody I'd like, I don't understand. like oh the wife tried to kill him maybe he killed her like as it was going yeah i'm trying to figure it out and you know when when you got to that plot twist i was like like that it just didn't

see it yeah and i love true crime because it it really is the whole you know truth is stranger than fiction because that was a great that was great it came out of nowhere you built up it really you really liked the characters you understood them you felt for them. Yeah. Bam. Yeah. I wish Courtney was here to talk about this because I think what makes us feel so strongly about this podcast and why we care so much about making it good is because, you know, I mean, we're actors. Like we met getting our BFA and acting at the University of Michigan. So we know how to tell a story. That's literally our job is to empathize and tell a story as accurate and respectful as possible.

So we always keep in mind, like, the families are going to listen to this. And they're all so recent. So these people's friends and families and loved ones are all very much around. They're all living their lives. So the thought of, you know, we just want to tell it as respectfully. You want to drive me respectful, right? Yeah, absolutely. And I think our team could recognize that we were able to be good storytellers

based on our training and just how we come at any text. Even if we come out of play, it's like, how do I make these characters real? How do I make the audience care about these people? And with, I'm at my murder online, it's obviously a little easier because they're real

people and these are real stories that people need to hear and learn from. It's also a good, the whole online thing's a good connection because so many people have dated online. Everybody can kind of empathize that kind of thing. Yeah, I get that.

Yeah, I get that. And everyone needs to know how to be safe. Like, and to the people who don't feel like they need to be safe, you need to know how to be respectful. You need to respect someone else's boundaries if they are trying to be, you know, as safe as possible. And you're like, well, I'm obviously not going to drug your drink, like, calm down. Like, no, you should be respectful and understand what the dangers are. Yeah, I was going to say, I mean, the guy. the guy and the husband in that episode, he didn't think he was in danger.

No. And he didn't think that his wife was capable of that. Right. And think about it. Like, even if it didn't happen to you, it's fine. You're, guess what? The, your, what's probably going to be your new wife is now, it now died. Yeah.

No. And even if it, and she could have killed him. Like, she was capable of it. Yeah. I think so, but she was. So, yeah, it's, you just never know. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Thanks. Yeah. You don't know what. I mean, love drives people to do crazy things.

Yeah. We're a horrible species. Well, okay, well, so listen, Jillian, I appreciate you coming on. And Courtney, you were great too. Yes. I know. You would tell you. We'll put the link in the description box. right so I don't know do you have any other if you guys have any other social media that you want to push yeah you can send me the links and yeah my editor will put it in there great yeah you can follow me at garner and Courtney is at Courtney though hey I appreciate you guys watching do me a favor if you're if you were interested in checking out the I met my murderer online which I like I said I watched one of them it was really good Super interesting, super unique stories. Check the description box.

We're going to have the link there. Also, if you like the video, do me a favor. Hit the subscribe button. Hit the bell so you get notified of videos just like this. Share the videos because that really helps me. And leave me a comment in the comment section. And I'll try and respond to the comment. You want to get in touch with me and you want to be on the show.

You have a true crime story. Then send me an email. My email is also in the description box. Really appreciate you guys watching. See ya.