Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - The Dumbest Counterfeiting Scheme in U.S. History

Episode Date: March 24, 2025

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money. He just bonded out on a minor charge. He got himself a major charge. The next day, the Secret Service leaves a card at his house. And it says, you need to contact me immediately and bring your friend Kyle. I guess they knew that I was with them. We all got together and we didn't know what to do. And I got the idea for, I don't know why, but I said, let's go down to six flags. They'll never know what counterfeit money is. You give them a $20 for a $2 item. You you get $18 back. Right. We started noticing security following us around.

We got in line for a roller coaster called the Shockwave. I got this new tattoo I'm proud of. You know, the Shocker? I don't know what the shocker is. Where's Jake now? They's doing good. Jaking it up. Catching a case.

He had a federal state local task force for him for drugs. Okay. So what happened? What did he end up getting? Got murder in the second degree, you got 25 years. You started this off saying he was doing fine. Hey, this is Matt Cox, and I am here with Kyle. And we are going to be talking about his true crime story.

And all right, check out the video. I can't believe I'm here. I've seen you on TV, seen you on the commercials. what am I doing here how did I get here man I mean you drove your motorcycle across how many states four or five yeah it was a nice ride you don't look so bad you came in you said I have raccoon eyes or something you you look all right now thank you Matt um when you first took your glasses off I was like oh wow when I got to the hotel last and I was like there's no freaking way I can do this man so here I am it's fine um so okay well

So, I mean, we talked on the phone a few times, you know, we just talked before here. So what, I mean, let's let's start at the, because your story really, it's, it's, it's not like you, it's not like a drug, like just like a drug story. Like it spans all the, all these different things have happened that you've been on the peripheral of, you know what I mean? Right. And then sometimes in the middle of, but, but have managed to not be gotten tied up in them. But, so let's start at the, you know, at the kind of the, I was going to say the crux of the problem, but at the beginning, which is, you know, so, you know, like, where were you born? And I, and, you know, what does your dad do and what is your uncle do? Okay.

Okay. Life story here. Yeah, yeah. I was born under a bad moon. Zanesville, Ohio, 1969. What's up? Two, two parent home, very stable. one older brother, very conservative, very middle class, very Protestant, well provided for.

No, my mom is from the Panhello of Texas, a small town girl, very, the nicest, the gentlest, easiest to like person I met. She's always been there for me. My dad comes from Dallas, and he was a provider, a great provider. you know, classic old school dad took care of us. My dad was really strict. I mean, he, he wore the pants in the family. My dad, um, got a scholarship, played major college football, was a Marine and then became an FBI agent. Uh, and what did he, what did he focus on? Sports. Oh, in the F in the bureau? The FBI, yeah. Well, my, dad was a man that revealed very little about himself and even less about his job. But

when we were in Ohio where I was born, he was, is just a resident agency. So I think they just covered everything. Whatever came in the door, right. Could be bank robbery, could be drugs, could be. I know that he used to, um, it's not like he was on a task force. No. Okay. He used to, um, he used to be out of town for two or three days investigating the theft of of cars that cross the state lines. But other than that, I don't know. A funny story my mom told me about was there was a drive-in movie, and they were showing a movie called Flesh Gordon.

And there was an X-rated version, and then there was kind of like a soft-core version. So dad had to go check out the movie to make sure they were playing the soft-core version, and he took my mom on this undercover steakout. But growing up, sports were a big day. deal. My brother playing little league sports, high school sports. My brother played college baseball. I stuck with

basketball through high school. But watching sports was a big deal that's when my dad kind of wasn't seem so frustrated and mad. And you know we're big fans of the Dallas Cowboys

of I don't know. Did you get into trouble when you were a kid or first time I got in trouble I was five years old Matt there was a kid that that my mom agreed to watch it was her friend who played tennis with her and I didn't know the kid

I was five I was a little bitty shit you know you're five but in my house there's a lot of rules it was real strict you follow my dad's rules and you know it was kind of like the guest was always right but this kid had just lost his father and his mom was out on a date and that's why he was with us.

So I don't think he was in a good place. So when we were at church, how was he? He was like six or seven. He was a year or two older than me. But, and I was a real gullible, naive kid. You know, I think if this kid would have been my friend, I wouldn't have agreed to do what he wanted to do,

but he hatched to plan when we were in church that we were going to walk to his house. And that was a long way away. And I was like, okay. And we got our, on the big wheels, remember the little big wheel things? Did you have one? Those were awesome. We rode our big wheels up to the end of the cul-de-sac, ditched them, and we were going to walk to his house maybe an hour away.

And our neighbors had a barbed wire fence that that was the shortcut. There was these two big German shepherds that kind of guarded the opening of this fence. And I was scared of dogs. You know, we didn't have dogs of our family. So we get to these dogs. I'm scared. And the kid walks to him. And he's like, come on, they're not going to hurt you, you don't get through.

So I walked through him, we walked to his house. And he looks in the window. And then he says, okay, let's go. And I'm like, what the, you know, why did we do all this so he could look in his window? So I was like, I'm not walking through back through the dogs. And we're going to go the long way. So the long way was like two or three hours. And we were going a long time.

so when we were walking through this this um farmer's field there was a barn and he pushed me in the barn and he told me that the old widow farmer lady likes to shoot trespassers with the with the shotgun loaded with salt and he pushed me in this barn and i remember all the things up to that point but after that i don't remember anything but we've been gone for hours my mom and dad were freaking out my brother and all the neighborhood kids were um looking for us and when i got home my dad kind of snatched me by the arm and took me up to the room and he was spanking me you know and he wanted me to cry to submit and my mom said i wouldn't do it you know i felt like hey this ain't all me that wasn't my friend i was just being a guest i was looking out for him

but my mom started to cry so she started so i started to cry or whatever but ever since then felt like I couldn't come to my dad like I had to hide stuff from them you know right and after that kind of a pattern established of taking risk so like when our neighbors had to shed and I climbed up on the top of it and I was throwing tools off of it I got too far from the edge and I took a header landed on my wrist my wrist was hurt real bad and I had to hide it from my dad you know and another Another time I rolled our skateboard down this steep-ass hill and crashed at the bottom, had to hide it. Another time I was climbing this tree.

I was way high and I was holding on a branch like this and the branch broke and I was falling two, two, you know, hitting branches. I latched toward the one and I caught myself, but I just, I've read about younger siblings taking risk, but it seemed like subconsciously I was. finding trouble and then hiding you know right this makes me sound like some sort of psycho serial killer but it's not that bad but i think every single one of us when we look back at our life has little patterns and little tells that that i don't know but right um my brother always obedient straight you know good at sports he knew he was supposed to be a republican when he was

eight years old kind of like michael j fox you know and i remember like with sports he he remembered every you know where this guy going to college and he knew he's like a sports team still still to this day he sports is his you know he follows his college football team around he loves sports that's my brother's way of kind of party you know but um i remember my brother used to like talk about communists remember when the communists were the the cold war and we were supposed to fear the communists and i'd tell my brother hate on the communist and my dad would be all proud of him and stuff and i would be like man he doesn't know anything about this stuff you know he's just doing what dad wants them to so i would say something like if our government tells us that

their government lies to them couldn't our government be lying to us And they would call me a communist, you know. If you can see that dynamic, right, good, bad, you know, positive reinforcement was not, was a rare commodity in our house. And my brother kind of cornered the market on that. So, you know. Like to poke the bear. Yes, sir.

My friends later on I'm going to tell you about, I think similar, you know. Right. But the only other thing about being from Ohio that kind of added to this story is, my whole family's from texas and older brother kind of rub it in that you're a yankee you know we're all from texas you know kind of thing just kind of that's the kind of way it was um kind of the way it was um i hope you high school do you get in trouble in high school or yeah i always got great grades because i had to get good grades um i mean we started getting trouble very young uh when when we moved to oh

I felt depression. I mean, I didn't know. I felt just like my whole world was dying. After we moved from, my dad got transferred from Zanesville, Ohio to Oklahoma City. He's from Texas. And the Bureau makes the agents move every 10 years, I think probably so they can't get corrupted or something. I don't know. But, you know, it's like you put in where your preferred residence is and Dallas is where my dad's from.

so we got closer to Dallas. So Oklahoma is Indian Territory, if you remember that from your history channel. And I think that place is a little cursed from all that. But when I moved there, I was immediately getting into trouble. It was just guys on my little eight teams. How old were you?

Eight. Jesus Christ. All right, go ahead. I have a story, but I can't tell the story. But one of the friends I met, my first friends, and this guy is going to be a key player in this story. His name was Jake, and we played on the same Little League basketball team.

Same Little League football, basketball, baseball. My dad would coach one team, his dad would coach other. I mean, we were close. So I spent the night at his house, and his mom and dad, said good night boys have a nice night about 30 minutes later his older brother corby eases the bedroom window up and i'm like what's up and we snuck out into the forbidden night you know and it felt kind of good you know we i mean i don't know what we did we i think we ran around and rang doorbells and ran i think we broke into a car and stole some some grocery some grocery bags that were left in a car

but from the get-go, I mean, these guys were crazy. They didn't like get, where they weren't scared of getting in trouble. Like, I wouldn't do this if I was at my house because my dad would have my ass, right? But through the years, we used to sneak out all the time when I hung out with Jake. Jake was kind of the opposite. He was a confident, charismatic kid, you know, alpha. He, you know, when you're around, Jake. you felt like you were you were the show you weren't watching this show you were the shit you know um um like

jake when we were in elementary school he would be like the the school fight promoter and he would get started a fight but then he would arrange a decoy fight on the other side of the schoolyard so the real fight could last longer um and he would They were always talking about sex, girls. You know, I didn't even know what that was. But when we were like in the fifth grades, or he was in the sixth grade and he had a fifth grade girlfriend, he wanted to have sex with this girl. So he devised a plan that got, and he got her friends using peer pressure, he got with

him and said, man, I know you girls are all virgins, but I want to get with this girl and talk like you're not. to get her to have sex with him, which she didn't fall for. But Jake was real manipulated. So the first time, first time I ever smoked pot, I was offered drugs was the sixth grade. And this kid down the street, it wasn't Jake.

He's like, hey, you want to try something? And I was like, okay. And he went into his dad's bathroom, pulled out a little bag of you, this green fluffy soap. And we rolled up a joint and I mean, it sucked. We couldn't even smoke it, but it seemed like anytime anyone offered me anything, I was like, okay, you know, and there was this feeling at home based on the relationship with my dad that things weren't right. You know, it never felt right at home. It felt more, I felt more like when we snuck out at night, like the night accepted you. You could be who you wore. You didn't have to have this mask, you know? And it seemed like that was. a pattern with people you know the people that were a little dark i guess you would say right i would feel more comfortable around i mean i think that's common when people look back at their

life but um uh the first time i ever smoked pot for real i i met with jake jake was a year younger than me so we had this house in our neighborhood it was called the round house it was kind of an anomaly. It had a Spanish tile and it was a round house like Adobe and all our other houses weren't like that. It was just old ranch houses, suburban ranch houses. But I met Jake at the roundhouse. That was our meeting spot halfway between our houses. And he's, we're headed a baseball practice and he's acting kind of funny, kind of goofy and his eyes are kind of red. And I'm like, what's wrong with you, dude? And he's like, man, me and my older brother, Corby and these kids that moved into the neighborhood, um, these two brothers, we smoked pot.

I'm high. And I'm like, no, you're not. You know, I didn't believe them. So we got to baseball practice and, um, we're warming up. You know, you're playing catch. Right. Coach is right there. And Jake fakes like a, uh, a high fly to me.

I look up and he drills me right in the gut, you know, with the ball. And I'm like, oh. And, and he's on the ground laughing. So I believe, you know, he was, I believed him there. Right. So the next day. um we all met in the ditch and the ditch it's like you know the canals and subdivisions they built a you know that was our clubhouse and it was connected with these miles of tunnels

and these tunnels were you know the first cigarettes first game of truth or dare with girls you know first ever a lot of at first but i sat with four guys smoking weed for the first time my friend jake his older brother corby our new friend danny and his little brother david we're all sitting in a ditch underground on the tunnels you know and they're telling me come on i can't figure out how to inhale it they're like come on dumb ass come on pussy you know i finally figured out how to do it and we walked out and i was like wow

this is great this is great um but the fates of those four guys are going to to this story you know it's kind of like the classic thing story you hear about drugs and and um and you know what happens to the results of drug drugs and stuff and um but uh so through high school that you know i i played sports i got good grades i walked the line i hung out with my buddy and he was doing wild stuff even back then but I was the one that would always say, no. Jake? Jake, yeah.

Jake was just wild, you know. And around the eighth grade, he told me he was going to steal a car. And him and another guy waited outside of a daycare in our neighborhood, and they jumped in a car when the person went in to go pick up their kids. They drove to Mexico. went to a Oklahoma from Oklahoma 8th grade how far away is Mexico from Oklahoma yeah it's about 15 hours

but there's there's I weren't with them no no I see I didn't do that kind of stuff but what he told me is they went to a town called Boys Town right across the border in Laredo and it's kind of a famous kind of sex tourism town where truckers go across and you know there's Bordellos and right they partaked

they got laid How old was he? About 14 It's not going to end. Good for Jake, I can already tell. You know what? He's doing really good now. Is it now? And out of respect, his family treated me like family, you know?

And there was some when we first met he told me that his mom and dad didn't love each other and they're going and get divorced when they're 18 and I you know I didn't know you know how to process that but right I think that

that you know knowing that they weren't on firm ground I think Jake and his brother lost respect you know yeah yeah that impending doom of that their whole family would break up at the age of 18 that didn't give him a firm foundation to it seemed like things were kind of a lie you know and his family treated me like my family so I think he had a similar situation where one parent

was really accepting and the other parent was strict and could turn off love and you know and and I'm not going to really say which one out of respect to the family but um um I think that has effect on a self-image the same way I didn't really feel like I belonged in my own that outsider that's misfit and I know there's a lot of people especially at this age that can probably relate to that to some degree but um uh did he get in trouble when he came back i mean if he's gone if it's a 15 hour drive he would call his parents and they would they rescued him they get a bus ticket but when we were younger they got into a lot of trouble and they um they they always had jobs and you know they did their chores around you know it's

it's not what you think you know things weren't all right into lily white suburbs you know from the outside in it looks looks good but i mean i think we can all say that as well but um uh around jake's older brother corby started hanging out with that danny kid a lot danny was do you remember the movie the outsiders yeah danny was a greaser he was a character from the outsiders they they came from the rougher part of town and he was real standoffish you know he seemed like he was ready to fight like he had a chip on his shoulder all the time but um i heard that his father worked for a bookie a famous bookie the biggest bookie in oklahoma city a guy by the name of Potee Poe, but that's a whole other story.

And he comes up later on in this life. I met him in prison. But while visiting my friend in prison, I didn't do any time. But Danny and Corby were hanging out, and Corby was acting crazy. You know, he's just having all kinds of problems at home. One time I spent the night with Jake, and Corby came home late, and he got into a cussing match with his parents. like you know if you y'all don't love me you know he well it turns out that him and core danny were

smoking free basing you know they were into cocaine right and um this would have been i was probably 14 and but i wasn't doing cocaine but he was probably about 16 the one thing about corey was he was he wasn't in the sports like we were but he was in the drama department and i saw him in junior high he performed a lead in a play and he crushed it he was singing and you know he was an actor and he continued on with that through high school and he had colleges looking at him for giving him a scholarship for the drama department but um it was the summer before my sophomore year in high school and it would have been for corby the summer before his senior year in high school there was a newspaper article about a man had been found shot in this multi-level tree house

probably five miles from our house on the north side of Oklahoma City and I'd heard about this tree house it was some like BMXers and skaters had bought had built it I'd never been there but a guy got shot there they found him with a bullet wound to the head and it was a big case and it's the tree it was called the tree house murder and the late and the headlines and um they didn't know who did it for a couple days so it kind of came out who done it but i remember my dad coming to me and asking me if i knew anything about this and it was canvassing the neighborhood well it was from the newspapers because it was uh my best friend's older brother was the suspect you know and bam so this is jake's older brother is the suspect okay and um it

Turns out there was a guy, his name was Thornton. I'm going to say his real name because he's passed out of respect to his family. I'm not going to say his last name, but he was 25-year-old guy hanging out with high school kids. That's odd. Right. Drugs. Right. You know, the paper said allegedly he was selling marijuana to the kids.

I'm sure that they were doing other things as well. But also it says allegedly that he was making sexual advances on these boys. And one night, one of Danny and Corby's friends got kicked out of this guy's apartment. And Corby and Danny had been free base in cocaine all day and drinking. So they went over there to kind of avenge their friend being kicked out. And I'm sure there was other reasons behind it. You know, it was a scene I wasn't involved with. But they lured him to this treehouse probably to get high or give him money or something.

and Corby shot him and uh so how did they find out that Corby shot him you're saying they didn't know for a few days but how did I think he turned himself in and I think they had a pretty good idea about it you know from from back traveling but yeah he turned himself in um um the crazy thing about that is I remember one night me and Jake had snuck out and we went over to Danny's house and this was before this happened Hopefully you can edit it. But, and it's the first time I see Danny kind of let his guard down. And he was, you know, we got high or something.

We remember that song, 867, 5309, we were air guitar and that. And it was cool. We had fun. But then I was like, you know, I got to go. Ginny don't lose this number, right? And so they made a big deal about it. You know, I'd walked home millions of times, but they're not. like no we're going to walk you home and danny pulled out this gun and i'm like what the

we don't need this you know and they they made a big deal about walking me home whatever see you later well that was the same gun that was used in that right the murder but it's devastating you know i felt bad for jake i bet bad for corby i felt bad for his family you know it was a big trial and so there was an actual trial or did he end up pleading guilty there was a trial And I haven't mentioned this on this tape. I mentioned it to you. Jake and Corby's father was a high-ranking official with the State Department of Corrections. He was one of the top five guys for the Oklahoma State Department of Corrections.

So that was blasted all in the papers. And so he's trying to mount some kind of a defense like, hey, he attacked me or I was self-defense and I shot him, that sort of thing. Right. I mean, I'm sure. They tried to. Otherwise, there's no reason to even go to trial. like the trial shot the guy i read the transcripts and um it was basically i think it was whether or not it was going to be a murder or you know i think they his family hired high

priced attorneys got it reduced to premeditated murder to a manslaughter he got convicted of manslaughter in the first degree how much time 99 years at 17 years old i mean that's pretty stiff for a manslaughter well i mean i mean he's in he's in jail now no okay so he didn't do 99 years no he got out after 16 years fuck um doing really good what i hear i haven't talked to him but making well into six figures right on on the right path i think because of who his father was and it was been blasted he could go to an Oklahoma prison he you know maximum security prison and I know that I don't know any of the details are particulars I know that he was out in California and I think Washington state and I think

it was a pretty easy prison where he got like conchigals and stuff like that but I'm not sure I mean I know it yeah got conjurals because I think he had a family man I really I don't want to go into his life anyway yeah so I hope y'all can edit that part you got to stop worries don't worry about it it's fine i had all just just um so what so so anyway so it was devastating right um you know i remember the radio played uh from the trial and you heard a shriek in the courtroom when they announced the sentence and i was their their sister you know freaking out and jake and you know i felt like he was a pariah you know a lot of his friends parents told him don't hang around this guy you know he's bad news and my family always

never did that to me right they were they were friends with i mean we were all tight and they didn't judge but um it sucked i mean it's sad that that happened you know and i think that happened because a guy was really high in sight on in a state of psychosis induced by drugs you know and in his trial it says you know he admitted that he doesn't remember anything until he hearing a gunshot and looking down and it was in his hand so um crazy kids don't do drugs man so so i mean so what happened after that i mean he is you know are you did you know are they still in the same you're still hanging out with him you're still the same um you know we ran in different groups jakes jakes is center retention

guy in junior high do you remember a bullshit popularity contest we called it spirit royalty he was always voted one of the top three the i didn't really consider him this way but girls would say he's super good looking guy right confidence you know by the time high school came around i think he'd gotten kind of a bad reputation uh but we we would see each other and so we were friends but we i didn't hang out in the same groups as him when when me and jake hung out alone i felt like we could be ourselves but it seemed like when we were around groups that's when he tried to be the badass you know and starting fights with people and all that and that was not my scene at all at that time so but um through high school uh you know Jake played football and he was

real good football player and his sophomore year he was on the jv team and he scored like seven of the touchdowns at their team it's you know seven out of the 10 touchdowns but he was hanging out with that danny kid and why he would hang out with the same guy that was partially responsible you know right for this is why i'm right this is why you look back and you know what happened you know it's it's friends even though I'm not making excuses for anybody or myself, but you, I mean, I'm sure you have done that to some degree, haven't you? Yeah, I'm sure everybody is. But they were hanging out.

Danny and Jake were robbing houses in high school. And in Oklahoma City, the toughest neighborhood that we knew of was the projects called Kerr Village. So they would rob houses, go to Kerr Village, and handle their. business you know trading their stolen goods and buying crack and for suburban kids to go into the toughest neighborhoods you know i mean yeah yeah it's a recipe for disaster it's also you know when you come from a very structured life and everything's you know as it should be there's no real excitement there's no real rights of passage proving grounds i think that's something that that was evident in all but um jake was on the path to go to prison you know right and but he straightened up and

he had a a girlfriend a good a good girl that he that he you know they dated and she I think she influenced him he ended up dropping out of school because he got kicked off the football team and enrolled in a private school in which he um he could work at his own pace and he finished his junior and senior year in one year married his high school sweetheart and they moved away to baltimore which was a he needed to get out of all the influences that that he had um so after high school that's where jake went for me even though this story is all about my friend you know i found out that i was my dad got transferred back to dallas so The day I moved, graduated high school,

we moved to Dallas. And here I am in Dallas. Now I'm gonna switch this story up. This is this crazy thing in my life. But when I moved to Dallas, it was just like when I moved to from Ohio to Oklahoma City, I felt like my whole world was dying in the state of depression, you know,

which I was moving to a great city with beautiful women, you know, all kinds of opportunity, but I had to feel sorry for myself, you know? Right. I was kind of mad at the world, and we were staying with my grandparents. And my dad's parents, and they were really strict. You know, they were a lot like my dad.

I saw, you know, the kind of people that you couldn't really be yourself around, but they were successful. Yeah, I wasn't in a great state of mind, rebellious. Right. I didn't want to move to Dallas, Who, little violence. We were staying with my grandfather. My grandfather was very religious.

Is he Catholic? No, we were Protestant. Very Protestant people. Very, hold your emotions in. Really? Yeah. So Catholics, I feel, it's a very, it's a very, kind of a scary religion. There's all kinds of, you know, there's all kinds of saints and spirits.

and this is all kinds of shit going on. There's crosses and... Don't get me started because you will not get monetized and it's off top of it. There's the seances and there's what do you call it? Exorcists and, you know, all this creepy shit comes out of the Catholic religion. Like, super creepy. I mean, when I was a child, they told me that there's this invisible man that controls all and he knows every thought in my head and he's judging my...

To me, that's pretty scary and intrusive, but that's a whole other. Should keep you on the straight and narrow, but apparently it didn't. So you moved. So you moved. So we moved and we were staying with my grandparents. My grandparents, my paternal grandparents always represented how we were supposed to be, you know. Nice house, country club, brought us to church. Grandma always had swimming lessons and tennis lessons and in vacation bible school and um so they represented you know what i thought at that time was righteous yes pious life that you're supposed to be living right on and my grandpa and you just mentioned that you're a catholic and the difference between catholics and protestants which i am is that

in protestant you decide on your own free will when you get saved when you get saved when you You accept the Savior. You buy the whole Bible. And when I was little, older brother, of course, did it when he was 12. And like a lot of people do it. I noticed my older brother all sitting with the kids from his class. And they all got saved at the same time. And I thought to myself, just like the communist thing, I'm like, well, that preacher

says that this is, you're supposed to be. sure, absolutely pure faith. But why are they doing it all around the same time? Are they actually sure when you're 12 years old? Are they doing it because their friends are doing it or because grandma and grandpa did it and because mom and dad did it? I was that kind of asshole that questioned everything from from the start. So I never did it because I didn't feel like I would be being honest. I thought eventually I would work myself when I got older, you know? So, um, um my grandpa you know at that time i had long hair smoking kind of a little rebel grandpa had to talk with me they'd come to jesus talk literally right and i gave him the same

answer i just gave you very respectful and honest you know and he was quiet because he couldn't say nothing and the way it was the way my dad my grandpa was is you could tell that they were upset but they all their emotions were bottled internalized it yeah that's a big theme in my in our family but um the next day my grandpa freaked out on me and it's something involved he accused me of being about the worst person you can be which i wasn't and it was involved another family member and it was kind of a backhanded accusation and and it was stupid and i knew it was based on our conversation before but at that time you know my dad had told me um i mean my dad had this conversation like son you shouldn't be doing this or whatever and i got mad because i was like

that's what he thought i was doing you know and um i i told my dad i can't stay in this house anymore and you know my dad understood i mean the thing my dad my grandpa accused me of was i can't even address it and it didn't happen you know it was stupid and my dad understood that but um i left and but that's the point in my life where all the things that my friend jake you know had offered to come on come do this come get in this kind of trouble and i always said no at this point i said f it i don't care it was my breaking bad moment i guess even though i never heard that that time so by the by i'd moved to dallas and the first friend that i met in dallas this is a crazy story you're going to think you're going to think i'm crazy but i'm going to tell it just how it happened

is i was on my way to work i've seen this hot little like like uh heavy metal dope skinny kind of stevie nicks type and i was wearing a lead zeppelin shirt and she gives me the devil horns like that. And that was my first friend in Dallas. And she was 17. Her name was Sheila. And that day we had lunch. And she's asking me what I'm into. And I was like, you know, I like music, having a good time, sports, whatever. And she's like, no, what are you into? And I'm like, I don't know what you meet. And she says, I'm a witch. And she said, oh, it won't work. on you based on my reaction you know i'd that's a world i never acknowledged whatever so anyway her she had a boyfriend and they were my first friends in dallas and her boyfriend's name was uh john

what was he he was just a suburban kid that they were they were hellians but he never said anything they were hardcore alcoholics and uh 17 yeah i mean They were the kids that I didn't hang around. You know, the freaks in school. Right, right. They were more like that. You know, we were more like the jocks. You were right.

Eyesod wearing polo wearing. Yeah. Yeah. Outsiders. Yeah. I like it. But one thing these guy told me, you know, he had these friends. And in Dallas on the north side of Dallas,

there's a big old church. It was called the World of Faith. And it was a famous tele-evangelist named Robert Tilton when, you know, broadcast on TV. I think he got caught up in a scandal. Well, him and his alcoholic friends, I mean, hardcore alcoholics, probably in high school, they decided to rob a grape. And they broke into this church and perched a skull up in a urinal. Wow.

That's no. These are all bad. It's all bad. So, um, so, you know, John, I think is the name I called him. Um, he had just gotten out of jail for his like third DWI and they were just my friends. And this is the kid that's like said they're, what, 17, 18 years old? Yeah, he was a year or two older, but the, the girl, Sheila was a runaway from Tulsa. And I got to know her, but I got to be more friends with John because that, you know, they,

I'm not going to be best friends with the guy's girl. girlfriend but um one night one day they're sitting around you know we drank a little bit and drop some acid maybe but they're like you want to do some speed and i'm like okay like i always do they busted out needles and i'm like now i'm good you know they're like no no this is the best way to do it you know i'm like okay and so i'd snorted coke once in high school but next thing you know I'm shooting up, meth, you know. And I hear all the addiction shows on YouTube talk about horrible addiction. People get on opiates and heroin and stuff like that.

But, I mean, shooting up meth, I did it on the weekends and I went to work. Oh, I didn't become a junkie like that. But that went on for about a year. But crazy story. and I wasn't high when this happened, wasn't drunk, but John used to like for me to come pick him up and hang out with his boys. He would leave Sheila at home, and Sheila didn't like that. She would freak out.

She'd be screaming and yelling and all kinds of stuff. But one particular night, I go pick him up, and she's real calm sitting in the corner of the room. And the mood's kind of like when a storm hits, you know, that morose just kind of quiet but you feel something in the air right stop you know how fast you were going

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She looks at John As we're leaving And says I won't be responsible For what happens to you If you leave me alone tonight And they're like okay you know she's tripping out put a hex on him or okay so we go over to his friend's house and his friend has a Japanese fighting sword and John grabs it picks it up says check this out dude and he's in a

cover he thinks the cover only opens like this but it really opens like that and he sliced his fingers bad like bloods everywhere so I'm freaking out. You know, I take him to his mom's house. His mom takes him to the ER. I call him a couple days later. And he's like, come check this shit out, dude. So I go over to his house and he's got a cast from here to here.

And they had like rubber bands connected to the cast. And they had drilled holes in his fingernails with strings tied to the rubber bands because they had to reattach all his tendons. Oh. So that that held it in. place. But the crazy thing about this was the scars on his fingers were three lightning bold asses. And that was the initials of his girlfriend. Do-da-do. It happened. Okay. I was going to say, so it was going to say,

so what happened when he healed? He was fine? Yeah, he was fine. And couldn't play the guitar anymore. No more piano. No, I don't, maybe he had a superpower. You never know. But an interesting story about this girl is when she moved to Dallas, her first boyfriend was in a band. He'd started a band. The name of this band was called The New Bohemians.

Okay. They were playing one night at a club in Deep Ellen, which is a section of Dallas where it's cool, it was a party section of Dallas. and a girl joined them on stage on a dare from from their friends and this girl's name was edie burkelle edie burkeld and no bohemians right they they popped off with an album you know remember the song i'm not aware of too many things i know what i know if you know what i mean shoved me in the shallow water and sheila was was dating the guitar player the yeah sheila's boyfriend they all lived in a house in a section of dallas on greenville avenue it's kind of

artistic section. Well, Eadie kicked Sheila out of their house because Edie said she's practicing black magic on people. She just couldn't, Sheila just couldn't get right. Now, couldn't do the right thing. If, and that you have, you have, I was raised in, within the container of reason, in reality, that stuff did not happen. But when you witness stuff like that, makes you re-calculate. whatever some scars it's fine uh oh i i can tell you all kinds of stories now i get into native american stuff and they acknowledge those worlds as being real right even your own world you just mentioned has exorcisms right there's all kinds of craziness going on do do do do do do um anyway yeah yeah that is a world beyond real and reason and a lot of people

don't care to have no reason to venture out from there. That's all I can say. But on that album, you know, the album that Edie Pekyll and New Bohemians came out was shooting rubber bands at the stars. There's a song called Little Miss S. You read the lyrics to it. I'm pretty sure it's about this girl that...

What happened to her? her and her and jeff had a you know she was they they broke up she went back home i really don't know i hope she's all right right um that's all i can say what's up sheila hope i'm not breaking the rules of fight club here so what happened what happened after that um so i told you those stories just to tell you the mindset i was in right so my old buddy Eddie Jay, moved to Baltimore, got married, trying to get away from all the bad influences. He's on a path to prison. Somehow, him and his wife moved back to Oklahoma City.

They got homesick or whatever. And, of course, being around all the old influences, they didn't last too long. So he got a hold of me. And I went up there. I think I was in college, in a community college, probably during Christmas break or something. and he was splitting up with his wife and him and Danny had hooked back up they were up to their old games

of breaking into houses. So they taught me into breaking in the houses with them. So how old are you at this point? 19, 18. So one weekend, I go out, we drive around all the neighborhoods, rich neighborhoods of north side of Oklahoma City. And just like you see in the movie,

or whatever, you're looking for newspapers and driveways. And we found a few prospects. Waited until dark. And we'd drive through the same houses, the houses we remembered. And slowly, we'd open up the mailbox. And if they had mail in their, in their mailbox,

they were going to rob them. And this is way beyond my... Because they're assuming that the house is vacant because they didn't get the mail. Someone's out of... Yeah, they got newspapers in their yard. They're getting mail. they're robbing the house that's you know i mean security people used to say don't leave

if you're if you're going out of town pick up your newspaper you have somebody pick up your newspapers yeah yeah wouldn't happen now because nobody gets a newspaper yeah we don't read anymore a 80 a 80s sign in your front yard and people just keep on driving right i'd rather go to the next house right um but so we spent that night breaking in about three house i was just driving you know right and they would be like okay let us off in the alley i was just driving you're part of the conspiracy i know like the guy driving the the getaway car and i you know know these two guys that are robin bakes how do you know i'm driving the getaway car it wasn't my fault dad it's my friend's fault man so um but dude you you know they would they would drop them

off in the alley and they'd say come back every 15 minutes man and uh you know i was nervous services this is a world I did not but what years is there's no cell phones or pagers or nothing like that right or is there it's been in 1988 yeah no 89 no you guys it was pagers yeah but there's no fucking it's not like you guys had a no no where you're going yeah yeah yeah oh no so I was wondering like what do mean every 15 minutes like yeah and I had to drive back and I mean I'm not I'm not proud of this yeah you know I just did it very influential about from my friends but we write about three houses.

And the funny thing after this happened, and we had VCRs and silver and gold, and they got a bunch like pillow cases full of change from this one. I mean, $1,000 worth a spare change of the guy I had or something. I don't know. But Danny and Jake would have this conversation that I'm sure they've had many times before where Jake was like, okay,

we're going to take this money and we're going to invest it and we're going to rise up we're going to quit robbing houses and dan he was like we're going to we're going to go buy heroin that's right or yeah we're going buy cocaine this is our our come up and and and dan he was like okay yeah we're just doing this one time we're going to show kyle a good time right and we go into the projects, the toughest neighborhood of Oklahoma City. It was called Currieville, or at least it was to us. And right. Driving to the projects. And the thing about that place is there's only one way in and one way out, which kind of adds to the element of danger. But my friend had been doing this since high school, you know, a little 16 year old kid going

in these places. And he told me, he's like, you know, these people have the edge on us because, you know, they're from the projects or whatever. And he said, all you have to do is actually crazy do something crazy in front of a group and you take the edge back they're scared of crazy white boys is exactly you know this is the kind of intent this guy he had nuts dude uh he had nuts from the time he was young dude but um so we went in there supposedly one time and then that's that asked like three or four days of a crack binge and you guys didn't there was no we didn't know our come up there's no no reinvestment yeah it reminded me as playing sports right and you know coaches talking about we're going to take state or whatever but um that happened nothing

you know i didn't get busted thank god but um i guess i went back back home to dallas and it was summer vacation jake had kind of linked up with this other guy and his name i called him Aldo in the book. Right. I'd heard about Alto in high school, like all the girls chirping through the halls about this great looking dude that they all liked and he was from a different school and he was kind of like a pirate or a conquistador conquering all the suburban girls, you know. I could have named him Fonzie or Fabio, okay?

And I'll bet you that Colby doesn't know who either one of those people are. I know Fabio has long hair. see all this stuff is dated yeah no i understand everything i i know everything that you're everything you're saying but you know i every time i i think oh that that's you know my generation i immediately think colby's never seen the outsiders he doesn't know what a greaser is he doesn't know what a soci is you like there's all these things that i but usually i say something but i was going to do we could educate you look on stuff that he has no reason to know i don't care last year yeah i got enough the outsiders less than zero that's a great movie um god i can't

um what's the other movie about the vampires um the lost boys lost boys i was a big jim morrison fan back in the day so um um where was i at so aldo fabio fabio um jake had hooked up with this guy Aldo. And to give a back Stirlingham, another made-up name. But Aldo was his mom was Italian, American, and his father was Latino.

So you can imagine this guy, you know, Casanova Don Juan. But Aldo had spent time in Houston. So I guess Jake and Aldo had combined their superpower superpowers of juvenile

delinquency. And Jake started doing what he talked about with Danny they were going to Houston and scoring um ecstasy MDMA right and um so they were driving down there one time and they were drinking or something and and outo rolled a car and he got busted and they busted him for a DWI and had they had traces of cocaine or something like that so auto was sitting in the jail kind of I think he was just sitting out his DUI time. And Jake got a hold of me. It was my summer vacation from college.

What did I do on my summer vacation? You know? So he's like, dude, I got this new crew and we're going to Houston. And it's not what I was doing with. It's fun. You got to come check it out. So I was like, okay, that sounds awesome, man, you know. And so I moved up to back to Oklahoma City.

and me and jake started going down to houston and scoring ecstasy pills and we were living with this girl you know very attractive girl and there was all the girls in the scene they would come down to okoma city and i mean they would come down to houston with us and houston at that time was just crazy you know it was all these clubs um all these suburban kids and that vibe you know when you're on x you're everything is relevant and you're cool and and it's just the spirit of love the energy man it's cool but um to be down there scoring drugs it's it's a it's a poor town so all the suppliers know people come in from out of town so when word gets out that there's buyers you know they would come to your hotel room and

offer you i got this this this for this much you know it was kind of cool and it was kind of like an underground and at that time you know you're worried about your future and going to college and what you're supposed to be major but this was majoring and this was different this was free you know it's like f you to all that stuff so um so we started driving to houston picking up three 400 ecstasy pills and you're bringing them back what are you doing you're selling them yourself or you yes somebody else that's We're selling them, buy them for $6 a pill, sell them for $25 a pill.

And this is at the time fashion to set the scene. It's, remember the kind of the zoot suits? Like Zerbo and Kazi and Z. Cavarici there. Yeah, Zee Kavarichi. That was our crew. We all had Zee Kavarichis with their baggy pants and they were filled up with pills.

And we were only 20 years old. We weren't even old enough to get into the club. Right. But bartender, give them a couple. I mean, we were kind of like the draw, you know, and free drinks. It was living that high life. And so that went on and, you know, eventually, I mean, I remember the girl that we were living at, you know, when we moved in there, I was like, man, are you sure it's okay for me to stay with her, you know? And he's like, oh, she don't mind, you know, it was a one-bedroom apartment and I don't, it was too much, you know.

But I remember that she had told me that her mother was dating her friends with the guy that worked for the sheriff. And even back then, you know, girls top, our business was being told to authorities or whatever. And, but, you know, we were driving from between Oklahoma City and Houston like once, twice a week, you know, and then eventually we were living in hotels and it was just crazy. I mean, it's a lot of work doing that, you know? Right. And how long did this go on? It went on my summer vacation, basically, but we eventually moved into an apartment. And it was a real high tone, a nice apartment, had two bedrooms, had a hot tub in one of the bedrooms.

And it was like less than a mile from the subdivision. We grew up in the far northwest side of Oklahoma City. but um um our landlord was his finance guy that'd been barred for doing some shady deals or something right he sat in the leasing office taking bets he worked for a big bookie all day but we would pay our rent with pills or later eight balls you know it's kind of kind of weird but you know it was club life all that it's kind of like a 16 year old wet dream you know right girls money jake and aldo bought matching zx10 ninja you know motorcycles they might as well have said i am a drug dealer tattooed on their foreheads you know they i remember jake used to

western union money to houston to make deals i'm like you can't do that you're leaving a trip you know he's like oh fuck it if they if they don't catch it with me on me they can't you know do so yeah that's not true but i hear you to end you're a kid right yeah the feds they can do anything we're all guilty if the feds want you i hope they're not coming after me after all this dude but um uh so out of the the the profit ecstasy we weren't making that much and um i had I had taken a couple thousand dollars out of my college fund, you know, and I gave it to Jake, and I told him, dude, I'm not a drug dealer, you know, I just want his money back. I was kind of like that idealist.

It's like, man, these drugs were meant to teach us, you know, like a hippie. I don't believe making money off of them, you know, just pay me my money. But he's like, sure, okay, you know. But Alito had met a guy at the club. and this guy was from a famous basketball family in Oklahoma is all I can say I believe that he had coached either him or his brother had coached a team I played junior high basketball against and I guess he told drugs too or something but Aldo had gotten him to commit to giving us $3,300 for three ounces of cocaine

so we were switching commodities at that point well they could get a quarter key for 43 and 40 a quarter key is eight ounces and this guy was only one three ounces so for a thousand dollars they got five ounces of cocaine pretty much so we were going to drive it down to houston this guy has a mistress this beautiful blonde lady

she was like a model like a local swimsuit model or whatever And they're probably in her 30s. She kind of resembled Melanie Griffin, Griffith. Remember the blonde-haired actress? Oh, yeah, yeah. But she's beautiful. And we drive down to Houston, we pick her up. And as we're driving down, you know, Jake gives her like a couple hits of ecstasy,

and we're all rolling, you know. And she'd never done it before. And we're having a good old time. And she looks at him and she's like, I can't believe I'm going down to make a major drug deal with you because you look like you're 16 years old. And your friend back there looks like he's about 14. She points at me.

So that was crazy. But we went down to Houston. They scored the Coke, whatever. And it was ether cut, fish scale. People talk about the most preferred type of cocaine. And we dropped her off at the airport. She had these baggy pants on. straps it all to her thighs and all that stuff and the way she goes and from that point yeah the

ecstasy no one gets strung out on it you know right it's it it was okay but the cocaine's a little bit more serious but most people are the stuff they were getting is straight off the brick pure most people cut it right they didn't cut it you know we just sold it but sold it a very high price so From that point, things got weird, you know, I didn't, I didn't want to be there, but I just wanted to get my money back, which they could have paid me at any time, but they did. So, but there was a time we went down to Houston, and we used to do a lot of acid. We didn't do it. I didn't like it. I wouldn't like the way it feels.

Right. Like, nothing sucks more. than if you've ever been in a room full of cokeheads talking it's they just talk talk talk talk and they don't hear you at all you know but um so me and jake are on our way on a dope run to houston okay we have just enough money to re-up right you know a little for traveling as usually we drop some acid tripping balls the way down there and we're going to turn and burn we're going to make the deal to come around turn back i tell him dude i got to get some sleep i can't turn around drive if you want me to drive i'm going to get a hotel and he's like yeah

cool and i see a hotel in the north side of houston and it's 25 dollars a room i'm like nice hotel it's a bargain and it was daylight so looks good and then we pull in there and i remember this this black dude sitting there asking me if i need anything it should have been giveaway and I'm right now we're straight appreciate it whatever but so Jake goes to make the deal and I'm at this hotel and day turns in the night and I'm hearing gunshots and people do doom banging on doors and screaming and I'm like oh my god and uh I started looking out the window and there's the same car circling the parking lot and I'm like man what's going on here and he gets back and I'm like telling him we need to get out of here this place is hot

And he's like, man, you're always the paranoid one. It's cool. You're stripping. Right. And he takes off the picture from the wall and we line up the biggest lines of coat you've ever seen. Right. So probably good in that situation. Perfect.

Yeah, it was a good move. So he ends up on the floor looking out the window, seeing the same cars. Right. I'm over the bathroom with this big old bag of coat. ready to flush it down for like six hours finally I can't take it I'm out of cigarettes so I'm like dude I think we're tweaking I'm gonna go get a pack of cigarettes I'm gonna shove this shit down my pants and if nothing happens we're getting out of here's like okay so I'll never look in your pants I mean I figured it it was a suicide mission either I'd make it I wouldn't right

nothing happened so I pick him up he's like get out of here we're right on the intersection I-45 and 6-10, if you're familiar with Houston. So I jump, I'm like, man, I need the $5. I left for the key deposit. We need that to get home. And he's like, no, no. So I stop in and I get my $5 as I'm walking out. There's a car that we'd seen circling.

And the guy gets out and points at me. It's like, there they are. And I'm like, oh, shit. I jump in the car and we'd haul ass. And who were they? Man, we don't know. I think they were like managers or like pimps or dealers because this hotel was in the hood. So, you know, it was action goes.

It was a hooker hotel or whatever, crack hotel. So we, I mean, we thought. He was just out of place. Yeah, we didn't look, look right. But as we're driving up I-45, we keep seeing these same cars that we thought were circling the hotel. And then they'd pass us and then they'd be pulled over on the service road. So we're like freaking out. I'm asking him if we want to keep going up to Oklahoma and commit a federal crime or get busted in Texas.

Texas time. And we're right by Huntsville, which is the headquarters for the Texas prison system. There's all kinds of prisons, right, from the highway. And he's got this towel. We got this towel in the car, and he puts this big bag of Coke in the towel. He chucks it out the window. It's our whole net worth. It's like chunking 10 grand out the window of your car.

car and as soon as he throws it out he throws it out of the sign we quit seeing all the cars and they all disappear and so we call our partner up to you know when we tell them what what happened he's like you dumb asses y'all are tweaking out but um you know many stories i've heard about guys flushing uh half a key down a fucking toilet like i mean left this is like a common thing i hear these guys they they get fucked up and then they get freaked out and they see like the same car twice And in their mind, they're fucking, they're coming at the room with battering rams. Like in their mind, the cops are pulling up and everything. And really, no, it's just some guy driving drove by twice.

It's actually two different cars, you know. It's a strange thing, the mind on drugs, you know. Don't get high on your own supply, I guess. But we ended up calling our buddy and we sober up by the time we get to Dallas and we pull up to the sign and wrap up like a little baby. Yeah. Oh, I thought you was. gone no i was waiting for cops to be be waiting on us or nothing but um i mean we had a lot of scares like that um you know and i had little omens like that a kid danny's little brother david

sat down with me one day at our apartment and he urged me he's like dude these dudes are hot they don't hide what they're doing the cops know what they're doing you don't belong here you need to leave like now you know and he sat down for like two hours trying to trying to convince me he said just get out here you can go stay with my house with my mom if you want you know and right that meant a lot to me because uh he passed away not too long after that so so respect to uh david or whatever but i didn't listen but the the lady that um went down to it with us to score the the mistress lady the diva lady. Right.

She, she knew people and she told me to get the heck away from these guys because, you know, they're on the radar. Cops know what they're doing, blah, blah, blah. So, and we even had a guy that was staying in an apartment and tell us that one night, a guy in a suit was rolling around the parking lot writing down license plate numbers. And he even came up to our apartment, was looking inside. So I have no idea what that was all about.

But anyway, you know, it's a lot of work driving to Houston once or twice a week and running an organization and doing all that. One of the cool things about is when counting the money, when you're, you know, the whole floor is covered in 20s, hundreds or whatever. One night, Jake tells me he's going to wipe his ass with a $100 bill because he always wanted to do that. and he did and flushed it down the toilet stupid but uh we met this guy we it was the night of the mike tyson spinks fight in 1989 we got a room a hundred dollar room at to marriott or something like that just to watch the fight on the pay-per-view and we're tripping on acid as usual and jake tells me this guy's coming over to make a deal and this guy always bought like two ounces of coat he's like this guy's kind of serious he's big old

boy all steroid out you know he kind of creeps me out a little bit but so anyway the guy came over and i met him and you know he was real serious all about business and he was intimidating because he's so big but he turned out to be a really good dude and uh i'll call him steve for the for the purpose of this show so you know he was buying buying a couple ounces for some people that own a nightclub or something like that so after that we decided to send down a minion to go down because we were tired of doing all the legwork and the minion claims he got ripped off of all the money so all that money that we had gone right you know we gave up our apartment we had to move back in with uh with jake's dad you know

his mom and dad had divorced but um the guy steves turned out to be a good guy he had a body shop and he was giving us work trying to just give us back on our feet and he told us these guys that he knew wanted us to go down to Houston and buy half a kilo of cocaine with counterfeit 20s.

They'd printed up a bunch of counterfeit 20s. And would you do that? I mean... No, it's just that the counterfeit the counterfeit money in and you know like the drug industry or um that happens like i wrote a book about a guy that same thing he he somebody went to buy pills from him or something he bought pills and the guy gave him the money and was trying to get out of the car he's like whoa whoa wait a minute

he was counting the money he said i counted the money and he said the money was there he said but it felt weird like he's like you know he said you don't realize that you can feel it you know and he said so i counted it and if you know he said if you don't have the right pay like it doesn't feel right like that's obviously the paper is a big thing but he counted he was like something's wrong he turned on the light he's looking at he's like but it looks good but i could feel like something was off on the money the guy took the guy immediately jumped out the car and ran and so he gets out and runs after him and they're like and the only reason he chased after him is that the guy had a bottle of um oxies with his name on it he's like so i don't give a shit

about the money. I don't care about the pills. I care that he's got my prescription bottle with my name on it. He's like, and that could come back to me. He's like, he's buying a few, he's buying $400 worth of fucking pills.

He's like, I don't give a shit because he was making him up so much money to a doctor shopping. He just didn't want it all. Right. He's like, I just don't want my fucking my bottle out there. So that's why he chases him all the way down an alley. They get into a fight.

He's like, finally he gets the bottle back. And anyway, but same thing. That and then Jeff Turner, same thing. I've met guys in prison who would like print it up and they'd mix it in with real money. But yeah, eventually somebody, because it does happen a lot, people, they figure it out.

This was straight up. I mean, he was dealing with Colombians, you know, and it's not like the movies. It's a house and it's a family, but they've got people watching out. And these counterfeit 20s were the Secret Service called them very low quality. But the texture of them didn't feel right. Oh, okay. They say you're supposed to put them in a dryer and put stuff in there to kind of rough them. I don't know.

There's a movie called To Live and Die in LA a long time ago. Of course. I told Jeff Turner about that. Great movie. That is the premiere, right? Like that is the top counterfeiting movie out there. What's the guy's name who plays the counterfeiter? Guy, you know, real skinny.

William Defoe. I love him. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's a great movie. That's one of those few movies I've ever watched. where at the end of the movie, I didn't see it coming. You know, it's called To Live and Die in L.A.

Great movie. Like, you watch the whole movie and then the ending, when it comes out, the ending hits, you're just like, I'm not going to say it. But I mean, you're just like, whoa. See, I don't remember the Indian. It's been so long. I was shocked.

I remember the song. It's a great, oh, it's a great movie. And they have a great counterfeiting scene. Like the opening scene of that movie where he's actually making, that the counterfeit money is phenomenal. He's an artist. I find that most stories

aren't like the movies where everything is precise and military precision. It's idiots that fall into things, you know. That's our story. It's like the guy, we interviewed a guy,

a detective who did like 20-something years in the auto theft for auto theft as a detective. And, you know, To me, all the movies I've ever seen on auto theft. Going in 60 seconds. Yeah, they almost seem like it's sexy. The truth is, it's usually just junkies breaking into, breaking into cars and stealing them.

And, you know, and it's haphazard. And they get caught and they're in and out of jail. And it's just, you know, like there are like true professionals that have it down pat. To me, that's real life versus the deluge. Yeah. But, um, so these guys, I wasn't dealing with the guy. It takes like, no fucking way, dude. I'm not, I mean, this isn't slipping a few 20s into a lot of real money.

Right. This is all. Yeah. He's like, no, I'm not going to do that. And I feel like ripping off Colombians, although I'm sure they're good people. It doesn't sound like a good idea. No. Seems like it could go bad. Yeah, I've heard about them cutting your tongue out and doing other thing, crazy things.

But right on, right on. So, but they gave this in-between guy, this guy. Steve $10,000 for us to kind of look at it. Give him some paper. Yeah and they told them whatever you just look this is for looking you know to see if y'all want to do this deal don't be spending it they told them not to even touch it of course bad ass jake he's taking it and taking girls out to movies and spending it just exactly what they told them not to do right so at this time it's getting to be my son i missed summer the fall classes because i'm still stuck here i'm wanting to get my money back right scared to tell my dad don't i done right but um i'd crash my car so the only

transportation we had was his motorcycle is crotch rocket so i'm riding around bitch on that and it's getting cold but um we're riding on that and he gets pulled over by bethany oklahoma police and they arrest him for a ticket, a warrant, a bench warrant. So I'm freaking out, because I know he's got all this money on him. So I get the bike back to Steve, and Steve's like, oh, shit, you know, and we're about to go to the police station, and we see him, Jake, strolling down the road. He's like, they can't hold me down, you know. We're like, what happened?

And he's like, well, you know, when they bust you, they take all your possession. and they've seen all this money and the jailer dude's like son you got enough money to bond yourself out so this dumb ass bonded himself out with counterfeit money so you know we're not that's not going to catch that with you real quick so now you're just waiting for the so you just bonded he just bonded out on a minor charge on the traffic warrant yeah and got himself a major charge the next day the secret service leaves a card on on a at his house and it says you need to contact me immediately and bring your friend Kyle. I guess they knew what I was with them. So this is, how'd you feel when you saw your name? How would heat shoot up through your body? Oh my God. Yeah, but I knew I hadn't, you know, I hadn't done anything.

Jake does what he does best. I'm just driving the car. He just, it's, yeah. But Jake, I mean, of all the stuff we did. I mean, if we either caught, you got caught with drugs, that's bigger than counterfeiting by a long shot, I think. But anyway, Jake's like, okay, he does what he does best. You know, he starts scam and make it up a story. He's like, okay, I'm going to say that I was at a bar and a guy came to me and asked me for change.

And he's like, you're going to verify that. And I'm like, no, I don't want to do that. You're not lying to a FBI agent. They know. Let's keep adding on to this problem. And he asked me for change. I had a, he had a, I had a million dollar bill. And he, and he gave me change using these counterfeit hundreds.

The fuck. Who's making change for giving you $10,000 in counterfeit money? What kind of change was he making? For what? What bill? I had a $10,000 bill? Like, what am I a bank? I don't think they would have bought it, huh?

No, I don't think they would have bought anything across the, Total thief was making change for a fucking 20 they were going to buy it. So right now, like if you were playing a, if we were writing a movie script or we were playing a virtually virtual reality video game. And me, I had three options, you know, I did either. The first option would be probably go home and get away from the scene and not have any issues. Right.

Or the second option would be lie to the secret service for my friend. Or the third option would be the option that we pit. which would we all got together and we didn't know what to do and at one point we were thinking about one of us go to like kansas city and another go to another town and just start spending buying dollar things or whatever i got the idea for i don't know why but i said let's go down to six flags amusement park in dallas they'll never know what counterfeit money is the secret service doesn't give their employees a course on how to pick it up which we found if they did and it's fenced in.

And they don't have their own internal security. I mean, you know that show the world's stupidest criminals and we watch it. And in hindsight, you know, you can laugh at people. But when you get caught up and you're not thinking straight, you know, that's all I can say. Right. Sorry. But so we all, not only does that Steve decide. to go with us. He gets his business partner, which they own a body shop, this guy named

Roger, and Steve's wife decides to go home with us. And they have three kids. And this, this mission that's doomed to fail from the start. I mean, even if we got away with it, they already had these serial numbers. And, you know, it was to the cops, it had to be comical. But so we drive all, drive to six flags this awesome crew of criminals which six flags one in arlington texas dallas area so i guess subconsciously i was getting closer to home one way or the other but um um so we get a whole we get a hotel room that night and next morning off we go and i'm the most proactive one there i mean we all had two thousand dollars to spend there's five of us that's 10 grand but I'm doing it man I'm buying shit you know so are you supposed to be trying to

get change or just spend it I'm buying like a little key chain or a trade kit okay so you give them a 20 for a two dollar item you get 18 dollars back right right and I'm doing it man I'm there to do it and there's a you know a basketball hoop game where you shoot to get stuff to animals well I did that one a couple times because I always played basketball I thought it's pretty good and those games are rigged by the way but um uh i didn't win the prize and that guy picked picked it up the counterfeit yeah and uh we started noticing security following us around and this is another kind of funny thing is i was wearing my favorite shirt which kind of explains my attitude and what i was doing there at that time it was the uh it was sid vicious the basis the late basis for the uh punk rock

band the sex pistols and on the front it said undermine their pompous authority reject their moral standards make anarchy and chaos your trademarks blah blah blah okay and it all had on the big black in the back it read sid s id so i can imagine the security people talking yeah it's it you know i'm like wearing a jersey identifying myself but we got in line for a roller coaster called the shockwave and you know you wait in line it's kind of like do do you know you kind of forget what's going on but there was a guy in front of us as we're waiting in line for about an hour and he's kind of looking at it's funny and we get on and we ride the roller coaster and we pull up to the little boarding station and the guy that had been sitting in

front of us in line all the time was like undercover six flag security and he's got two local cops and they point us all out and they don't raise the bar and they take us out and frisk us and they're pulling out all this money and it was crazy and they handcuff us and take us through the jeering laughing crowd you know and all my friends were we're had their heads down but I was like fuck y'all you know y'all did they get every single person Yep. Even the kids? No, the kids weren't with us at the time. They just had kids, which...

Oh, okay. Sorry about that. Yeah, I thought you guys were dragging around three little kids. We could have got them to spend the money. But, Daddy, I don't want to spend the kind of their money. So I remember we're sitting in Six Flags Security Office, and we're just giving each other shit grant, you know, it's fuck. And they took our information,

and there's a lady cop, and I remember, I guess whenever you run my license, it pops up who my dad was. And she's like, did you know your dad's an FBI agent? No. Yeah. I mean, I know he used to leave at 9 in the morning. I don't know where he meant. But, and I remember that Jake had a bag of weed. And it's common now.

It's, you know, but we called it hydro. It's real expensive weed, hydroponic weed. But he had a bag of weed in his pants and he flushed it down in the toilet in the office. But finally, we knew the guys in suits were coming and in a Secret Service. And they take us and take us to Fort Worth downtown to the Secret Service office.

And it's late at night. I'm in this dude's office. And it felt exactly like that uncomfortable feeling I had with my dad. I was trying to make conversation. I'm asking him about the football game and who won this game. know and it was stupid but uh he sat me down and like what's up son and at this time i had

no experience dealing with police so i didn't know you're not supposed to to talk or whatever so did you tell him i'll tell you what's that jake's fucking got a bunch of money he's been spending all over this place i don't know you guys need to talk to him i didn't you better you better hope they don't talk to me you better hope they talk to you before they talk to me because you got some fucking problems i'll tell you right now i'm not going to fucking Dale. Well, counterfeit, that's a pretty cool charge. I've only met three people in federal prison who had counterfeiting charges, by the

way. And that's, and I met a ton of people. Like, it's... I looked up, you know, they told me, someone was trying to scare me, and they said that the max penalty is 20 years, and they had me for seven, and they could stack them out. They're not going to stack them. The average

penalty for counterfeiting is 18 months. I was just going to say, typically, typically what these guys will get, if they just plead guilty is like you you're saying 18 months is like probably the average that people do but it's like three years right i literally knew a guy who'd been for counterfeiting through this i met him on his third bid and he got seven he got seven years and they caught him with a couple of hundred thousand dollars because he knew yeah and he he used to say if you're

going to get out and commit another crime make it counterfeiting he said it's got the best yeah for the amount of money you can make in it. The risk reward. The risk reward is huge. And this guy Benin, he would get out, he's like, I'll just fucking do it. I'll do it for hundreds of thousand dollars. When I get caught, I plead guilty. They drop it down

to one count. You get one count plus your criminal history. He started off the first time he got like three years, kind of like probation. Then he got like six years. So you're only doing 85% of that. Then he ended up with I think eight or nine years. He did get eight or nine

years the second time like the third time you got eight or nine years but still he was like listen for the amount of fucking money he is especially if you know you're going in if you know they're it's going to catch up with you yeah you put away money he was this worth it i was like god this fucking guy he's nuts that's 15 year i mean i hope he got a lot of stuff with that there's there are certain and you know you've i'm sure you've met these guys there's some guys they're just you know they're just not gonna you know you call them you know can't get right saying like they're just not going to they're going to be criminals their entire life they're going to die a criminal they're they've accepted it this is what they want to do with their life

that's it like you know it's a self-image thing it's yeah all the energy they spend on figuring out how to circumvent the law they could have yeah but this guy apparently he had listen he had tons of commissary had plenty of money out there had like they didn't get him like He knew the whole time he was doing it. When I get caught, you know, everything's in my mom's name, this person's name, that person's like he was setting it up to go to fucking jail the whole time.

That's what I was wondering. Yeah, you know, he knew. He knew. And he was like, when I was like, what are you doing when you get out? He said, what am I going to do when I get out? I'm like, fucking, what do you mean? Well, you don't want to do. Yeah, the same thing I do.

I'm going to do what I do. And I was just like, fuck, are you nuts? He was like in his late 30s. too i was like you're fucking getting getting up there he's i'm in my fucking 30s i'm getting out in a couple years he said i got another bit in me i was like oh my god he was actually unfortunately he was actually a pretty really a cool guy not because it was just a cool guy you know got you it's upsetting too because you know he doesn't need any money on his books or anything no no that's he that's you know he was just one of those guys like if i had thought i

was going to get caught and put away money the whole time. But I was just arrogant enough to think, they're not going to catch me. I'm too sharp. I'm too smart for him. So I didn't put any money away. So I didn't think about all. I was like, this guy was smart. Smart enough to know.

Oh, no, they'll catch eventually. I was like, Jesus. Like, he was bright. My uncle told me that similar, one of the best crimes risk reward is being a bookie. I mean, I don't know how many bookies you're right across. I don't think I ever, but I wouldn't even know what that charge would be. What would that charge be? I don't know.

I don't know. I think it's probably mostly like a state charge or something, right? Or maybe tax evasion or something like that. But I've heard that having like a blackjack table, if they caught you with a blackjack table, that's a federal charge. I don't know. But so I'm sitting in this guy. office and he writes out a statement basically saying yeah i knowingly and willingly passed and possessed fake bogus u.s notes and i signed it right and um i did i throw my friend

under the bus at towards the year i didn't offer it they they came to me and they said did your buddy know that money did he bought it and i was like yeah did he i mean how you know but Does a Pope wear a funny hat? But, um, so then it's like three in the morning, and they're taking us to some federal lockup in the sheriff's in Johnson County, Texas. And I never been to jail before. I didn't know what was going on. So when they pull us in the jail and they give us our jumpsuit things or whatever,

and but no one searched us or anything like, I mean, we, Jake could have kept that weed on them and, you know, I could have brought a gun in there for all, I didn't know, but I remember walking back through that quarter, and we used to have a saying that Danny used to say because, you know, he'd been to jail before they talk about sweet lady with the big 20s, going to be your celly, you know, like, whatever. And I was like, man, what's going to happen? They walked me and Jake together.

I'm like, oh, that's cool. He'll be here, but they put him in one pod and me and the other. And as soon as I walked in, I heard a guy from the back, you know, say, all right, another white guy, you know. It turns out me and him were the only white guys in there, but it wasn't bad at all, you know. Nothing happened. I remember Jake got a homie because you could see the windows.

There was glass right there, and he's banging on the window. He's like, it's Sunday, me and church. And so we signed up for church and we went, you know, and I have to say that the Protestant churches, the dry Protestant churches I've always intended this, had a lot more spirit in it, man. The guys were really into it, and they were praying, you know. They had a lot to pray for, I guess.

But, you know, we were talking about they brought in Steve and Roger, but they came in and got Steve like early morning because he was cooperating. You know, I mean, they flew him back to Oklahoma City. They went to a shop and set up all the cameras and had agents there. And he called the people and said, hey, we got rid of that money. We want some more. He's the one who knew the people.

Right. He's the one that brought them in. So he was really the connection to them, not you guys. Right. You couldn't go and say, I'll call the guy. I'll do this. No. You didn't know anything. I mean, I benefited from someone cooperating, but I don't, but whatever. Right. I mean, I don't, it doesn't.

So he said. He set the, so they came in, put cameras throughout his shop. And, yeah, they got the guy. And the guy was the printer. And they caught $3.4 million in 20s and the plates. And it was the front page of the paper, you know. And it's quite different from when I used to look at my high school basketball, and it puts scores and see my name in the paper.

Right. but um uh i remember my mom and dad came to visit me and that wasn't fun you know my dad was cool but my mom was crying i'm i'm sure your dad knew this was coming your dad probably was like i don't think he knew this much was felt like i was going to be visiting you in jail at some point you know what my my basketball coach the last words he said to me was be careful your phones might be chapped so that was kind of like an ides of march thing i man i never i don't know but you didn't think you were eventually going to end up getting arrested no i mean not really i how do you know you know i know i understand i mean i got good grades in school and was in college you're you're transporting

drugs up between the states and throwing shit out and thinks cops are falling you know it's going bad not going good um so so what happened like what did you end up did you end up did you get bonded out i mean did you oh so they they take us to this funny story they take us to the match of the fort worth federal courthouse right i had my sid vicious shirt on it said undermine their pompous blah blah and i think one of the jailers said you don't want to be wearing that shirt and um so i i bought a shirt from roger and it was a tequila of worm with the tequila bottle and a worm or something like that but um the the funny thing about that is you know they took us into that holding cell and it reminded me of these old cells that when i

used to go visit my dad in ohio you know them them official looking federal courthouse with granite tight walls or floors and um but they they called me in to sit down with the clerk and she's asking me all these questions i guess it's uh uh uh pretrial report or something like that a bond report and she's asking me well what who you will be living with what are the occupations of who you'll be living with and i tell them about my dad you know what he does and she's like wow i don't hear that too often you know but then jake goes in there and does the same and jake tells me that as he's sitting in his clerk's office the magistrate leans head into the door and says what do you think stacey what are our counterfeiter is going

to be flight risk and she's like well this one here his father runs all the prisons in Oklahoma and his buddy in the cell his dad's an FBI agent so I think we're pretty safe with these two but um I remember the cell my dad called me into one of them rooms like where you talk to your lawyer yeah and that's when he's letting me how like what the what were you doing blah blah you know i'm like whatever getting defensive but um i think he told him to leave me in that room because you couldn't you can't open the door yeah and that's when i felt the whole thing of being locked up kit me and i'm like oh shit it's gonna be a lot of locked doors in the future yeah it's but when the whole thing matt is i was more worried about facing my dad didn't yeah that's i mean i

I don't know if that's respect or fear or, you know, a combination of both. But I remember in the cell, there was his old-looking white convict dude. And then there was this Nigerian dude. They arrested him for being at the airport. And he had like $10,000 cash. He was taken out of the country. And I didn't know that was a crime, you know. But I found that it was.

But Jake's rapping easy e-larics loud so everyone can hear. And I don't know. That thought that was surreal. But they pulled us into the courtroom. and um the magistrate let's let's let's all out on a PR bond okay and I'm sure that has to do with the cooperation blah blah blah yeah but the only funny thing about all that was the guy roger was this good old Oklahoma boy and he has a what do they call it now politically correct he has a speech impediment right so they the magistrate doing us

right ask us if we have any questions and this guy roger raises his hand and says your your honor if i go to prison can i get my teeth fixed and i'm just like why are you saying that anyway we got out and that's when my dad's taking me back home where i should have gone before all this happened and say goodbye to my counterfeiting crew. Yeah. And I was, I was,

they put me on pre, I had to report to a pretrial officer and whatever, that was fine. Jake had a girl pretrial officer. And Jake was like, man, I think she likes me.

I'm going to get in her pants. And anyway, we had, we were waiting, playing the waiting game i remember too my dad had a a lawyer friend they played college football with and he was a personal injury lawyer but then the very next day when i got out they had set up a meeting with these these you know crime lawyers you know these high high price defense lawyers and we all met at a denny's and on the way there i was riding with the lawyer guy my dad's friend and he had the

national news on back when you know and the a.m. stations would run the loops and our case was on there like that's kind of I was sure your dad was like hey can you I mean I imagine what he was embarrassed you know he tells me you know he got a call in the middle of the night from his supervisor you know but um um so these we're sitting at a dinnees my dad's there and the lawyer friend these two criminal defense self-important guys they're wanting to hear this big crime caper and I'm not going to say nothing with my dad

sitting right there and i mean i came out as adult you know which probably isn't that hard for me they didn't want any part of this case they're like man this ain't yeah this is this is low ball he's not even really looking at any time so um my my um my um my dad's body ended up handling and he charged me like 500 bucks i had to pay restitution nothing right for a criminal for a criminal fucking defense uh for a federal case that's yeah that's yeah um so um so um but we had to wait you know it was all up to the prosecutor what what we had i think i waited like six months or a year and probably it's about six months and he called us in there and he said there was four of us one of us was not included in on this deal and you can guess which one it was

but uh you know he led us off on something called a pretrial diversion where you agree to stay out of trouble for a year right and it's i mean not you don't even have to put it on applications or anything like that so that's what happened to me um after that i get a job at little caesar's pizza and i'm riding my BMX bike to community college trying to do the right thing by my buddy jake he's back in the mix you know and uh he's starting to to get back in the drug game and i heard a story through the Great Vine about how he had fronted some drugs to this girl and this girl wasn't paying him back and she he was going to leave town so he arranged for this girl to be at another friend's house he was he was having a

relationship with this girl's friend and he was going to robber he had recruited this guy to rob her so they called the girl over to the apartment complex one night Jake and the robber are waiting around the corner the guy's not even supposed to have a gun so the guy goes around robs her he has a gun she tries to fight fight back is Jake with her no Jake's their height you know Jake's not there there she is and she went out she went out with fighting you know she didn't she didn't punk out and he the robber guy hit her over the head and the gun went off and killed her. Her name was Cheryl, respect to her family. I didn't know her, but, um, so Jake gets, there's about four or five people involved in this conspiracy. And he's,

he's like, has none of us ever talked? Oh, that's not possible. Right. We can get away, you know, and, uh, they buried, they threw the gun in the lake or something like that. He, I heard that, like, people did talk, like not those five people, but people getting in trouble for other stuff. The cops knew they just couldn't piece it all together. They never made a case about it. But Jake just keeps on going. And I remember he was running a book.

You know, he was being a bookie for a while, which in Oklahoma that lasts for football season and basketball season. But eventually he got back into the drug game, right? and him and Alto build it up and build it up and they grew and he was getting the cops knew there was a there was a local

vice cop I think is what they called his drug cop on his tail and they'd they busted in his room one time and he didn't have drugs on him but they took like 50 grand from them or something like that um the kid David our good friend Danny's little brother ended up OD in on coke which which sucks you know respect to him and his family um but jake knew they were after him and it turned into this game of cops and robbers you know and at this point he was he was up to

full keys he was flipping keys and it was kind of like a multi-level marketing thing where he would come into town he knew he was being watched so he would he had he had six people under him six runners whatever you want to call it right so he would all give them six ounces they would give him back six grand and out so he would turn 20 into 36 and um the paper said that he was doing several kilograms a month and in okoma city is a it's a small big city right so when you get a name for yourself You know, your reputation, people talk, you know. Right. Cops, thieves, whatever, you know, they knew.

They didn't hide their stuff at all. Everyone knew what they were doing. They high-rolled it. They might as well have had tattoos that say, I'd sell drugs, you know. But along this time, when Jake knew that he was being watched, he didn't keep the stuff on them, but there was a spot. We used to hang out. out in the country, and he would bury his stuff there.

And his six people that sold for him, they would meet him there. And that's where they divvy up. One day he had stashed a kilo there, and it was gone. So he knew it had to be one of those six people that was under him. So he went to him all, and he said, look, man, I know you stole my stuff. Right. And you need to rob a bank to pay me back. And it worked.

the guy that did it's like you got me yeah and this guy was uh oh my god this guy know this guy what i mean i the way i say if you met this guy i mean i know you're a master manipulator you definitely but y'all i'm sure well you just talked about prison and there's got full of guy i can only imagine all the the jadai mind tricks going on in that place right everybody in there's a hustler yeah so it's running game yeah so so what um so so this guy his name is his name he's dead now i don't i'm not making up a fake name and he was known to be the toughest guy on the north side of oklahoma city he was just kind of crazy i think he was a little bit of the off but anyway the way jake tells me the story is that one day you know

he'd put the bug in the ear about rob him to pay so one day him and it's out of his little brother and I'm going to name him Sancho in this story. It's not his real name but Latino people might understand why I say this and towards the end but he says that him and Sancho Jake and Sancho picked up Jamie

and they were just cruising going somewhere and they passed by this bank and Jamie's like pull over here and he pulls out of like a president mask and a gun and he says I'm going to rob this bank to get you your money back and uh y'all

just turn around wait for me and so he jumps out of the car and Jake's like no we're leaving you know they didn't sign up for this shit so but I thought Jake told him the rival bank told him to but not with him as an accomplice so uh I think he when when Jamie went into the bank that he said you know gives to tell her a note and she looks at him and as president man she starts laughing at him but she did give him the money and he told me this crazy story how they took off and jamie ended up running to jake's house which was like a mile a mile and a half away and you know he had the blue dye all over him and so he's and then for some reason he got spooked and called his girlfriend to pick him up and even though they'd kind of shut the grid down

they decided to be wise to drive right back by the scene of the crime and that's where they caught this guy in his underwear with blue dye all over him but I later read that he got caught pretty much right at the site I don't know why Jake told me this story I think he was preparing a story just like the secret service if he gets interviewed by the cops or something like that so he so I wasn't even there he jumped I dropped them off but didn't realize what he was going to do and I left and had no part of it. And I think he was practicing on me. You know, he,

what is it pathological when you believe your own? Right. We can't help it lie. Yeah, you're constantly lying. It's a great salesman. Right. Salesmen are great at that, right?

So the guy got caught right away. He basically, what really happened was he ran out of the bank and got caught. Right. And because of the die patch. Yeah, that's what the paper said. Jake's story's better. but right um um

his day story is not that much difference the only difference is the guy left and came back i don't know why his his reason for making that story i mean it had to be something he was covering up but um i don't know i mean a crazy thing kind of an interlocked to all this and how it all ties together is the guy that investigated that bank robbery was my dad's old partner in the FBI and Jake told me they sat down and he asked him what he knew about this robbery and it sucks man that guy's crazy and he's like the guy's like well can we play your recording

and this was a recording from Jamie's answering machine and it's Jake saying man when are you going to hit that bank like we talked about and Jake's like he got a shit eating grin and he's like I want to wear you know but it's just that that agent his son used to play on a little league basketball team that we played on so i would think the agent your name would have come up um on jake's alias list like you would have been listed as somebody i would think when he looked at it he would be like oh wait a minute this is my ex-partners i think he they right like i said i think when we first started all this i think it was circling around

And, you know, it's weird. Sometimes you think that a cop knows someone that has potential. They let them kind of rise up and they'll say it's for gathering evident, you know, to follow the chain. Right. But, you know, I think that,

or you could say that the cops waiting to, it makes better headlines, it makes him look better. You know, you see both sides of it, but I think people knew. I don't know how, I don't know. So what happened? where's Jake now?

They're doing good. Really? I mean, but we don't, we're not nearly as close as, but, jaking it up, catching a case. He had a federal,

state, local task force for him, for drugs, okay? And I mean, I just imagine in this, you know, like in the movies

where you see, like, crimes and they're pointing, you know, they have to, and all, there's all these, think about the trajectory,

of crying i mean all by this kid you know you have murder you have the largest counterfeit bust a bank robbery and a big old drug case all pointed to this one guy but um he ended up getting busted you know i and uh they taught him when you know they busted in the hotel rooms how much well how much i'm to get he got 10 years we got about nine years but he cooperated up his guy. I mean, they were handing out big sentences. You know, he could have got 20 or 30. I'm sure if he wouldn't cooperate or took it to trial. So he does his time and got, I got all kinds of stories. I'll tell you, once he's self-surrendered, okay? I heard you talking on the last show about, you wonder about people why they self-surrender, why they don't just run and make them catch him or

whatever. But jaking it up, his dad got him a job at some small town sewer department. So he, he joked and said he went from high rolling to shoveling shit basically but jake being jay he befriended this fell in love with this beautiful blonde young Oklahoma country girl and um uh I think he know they were getting getting married but uh he talked about he got the call to surrender it was about a year we took a trip to Vegas which was kind of cool when you know your buddy's going away for 10 years but um so he's his last weekend of freedom so him and this girl they're partying they're having a good time and he bought her some lingerie and she and turned by him like a little you know one of them stripper purple banana hammock type thongs to

wear whatever and so they did their thing he gets dropped off at county jake worked out he's all yoked up you know he can have it himself but he said in county you can't work out food sucks got scrawny but he got to call the report to his prison but you know when they have you stripped to your skivies the only skivis he had was this dong thing that his girlfriend bought him so i don't know it's not the best way to go in but you know he's not he's a kind of guy that handles his business you know he doesn't i don't i mean but he has crazy prison stories so he did his time gets out he i went to go visit him when he was in fort worth for the last little part of fort worth medical

which is where that Tiger Joe guy is now. But that's a trip to visit your friend and in prison. It was just kind of crazy. But he ended up, he ran a book. That was his hustle when he was in Fort Worth. And he ran up for this big, famous bookie out of Oklahoma named Potey Poe.

Potee Poe used to have an underground casino in the old money section of Oklahoma City called Nichols Hills for years. Like the mayor football, everyone knew about it, but they finally busted it. on it but you know he would talk about sweating out games and these guys you know they have nothing but time so they get real good at picking games and all that stuff but um uh when he gets out

he gets into a business that a lot of cons get get into i'm not going to say it because he's still in that business and it's kind of a public business but killing it crushing it making six figures within within um two years he marries this beautiful girl that looks like audrey heber they have a baby there um he's driving alexis he just closed on a brand new house out in the suburbs well his friend sancho got arrested in Oklahoma City on minor drug charges like he stole his girlfriend's camera and ponded so he's got to get high so bad he tells him all the details about that murder so jay gets out of feds work his way has his whole life set and the same cop comes get him for this murder charge and they're they're charging them

capital murder drug kingpin i mean the death penalty was on the table so this is a recent this was in between his prisons prison so he did 10 years in the fed he got out early 30s so he's mid early 30s started over doing fine they come in with this other one he's gone away there you know he um well he got he hired lawyers family hired lawyer he lied a lawyer whatever but good lawyers you know i can only imagine his family this is a second murder trial that they've been to with their sons it's right and they're all good people and you know i know they're all doing well but um he the whole thing was in his case the crux of it was whether or not he knew the guy had a gun and if he they they would have proven that

he would have got a gun he would have got life murder in the first degree but he got murder in the second degree but during his trial sancho the same guy that snitched him out which jake snitched on his drug case so right right yeah started having an affair with jake's wife the mother of his child they were walking in the court can you imagine so so what happened what did he end up getting got murder in the second degree he got 25 years you started this off saying he was doing fine well he we're 54 he did 10 years he did state he did half of it he did 12 and a half years he's out i was gonna say you're your your definition of fine and my definition so you're saying now he got out So he got out on the second one.

Now he's doing fine. Making six figures. That's why, I mean, he's like you. He's a winner, you know. Okay. He's like, you know, he hands on his feet. And he did not mean for, these are decisions that he made very young. He didn't mean for that person to get killed.

Oh, no. I, I, you know, that always kills me is that like, and unfortunately, this is the way it worked. And people don't realize how it works. Like, if I, if I say, hey, look, man. You know, if I say Colby, bro, like that dude, this guy over here, you know, he knows me and he knows that I know he's got money in the house. So what, but he doesn't know you and doesn't know that I know you. So why don't you get one of your buddies and you guys break in that house and get the money? He's in there.

He doesn't have a gun. He doesn't have nothing, but he's in there alone. He's got $50,000 of cash. It's under the bed. And Colby goes, okay, cool, cool. Yeah, I'll do it. Colby grabs one of his buddies. They run up.

They kick in the fucking door. They happen to have a gun. they get into a fucking they get into a fight the guy resists he ends up getting shot I'm charged with murder because even though I'm like even if I told Colby specifically typically typically depends on what state in the feds and in Florida is typically typically what happens that even if I told Colby don't bring a gun and Colby goes bad I don't worry I got you I'm not going to bring a gun Colby brings the gun anyway guess what I'm going to get charged with murder you hear about like kids from the inner city that happened and all they're just long for the ride and

i think that a lot of that depends on the affluent i mean if you have enough money to hire a team versus a public defender and but yeah because in both of these cases other people could have been you know yeah so i i know a guy who was driving a car for his brother he was driving his car the car his brother and a friend went to go rob a drug dealer well it wasn't a drug dealer It was a DEA had set it all up. They didn't realize they run into a, you know, into a whatever, a stash house to rob a drug dealer that was never there. There was never any money.

As soon as they get out and they're running towards the house, the cops jump out of the house. They jump out of the house next to it. They pull cars pull up. The kid starts hearing shots being fired. He panics and hits the gas and takes off. They pin him in with the car. He gets out of the car.

starts running one of the DEA agent shoots him doesn't even have a gun shoots him blows his leg off at the knee boom hits the ground

his brother died the other guy died he lost his leg he got 30 years he was charged with murder because he was driving the vehicle and his brother got killed so they basically charged him

I think they just charged him with his brother's murder I don't think the other guy got murder. I think he survived. So they charged him with murder because there was a death during a robbery that you were a part of, even though it's like,

yeah, but my brother didn't kill anybody. They killed my brother. Doesn't matter who died on either side. You got charged with it, and he lost his leg. He was like 19 or 20 years old when I met him. It's so scary. It's like, I was just driving the car.

Right, right. And if you met the guy, he was just this. you know do-dy-do not you know not not he wasn't like he was simpleton or anything but he was he was just a nice kid he was a black nice black thin black kid wheeling himself around in a wheelchair like he was sitting on the couch one day when his brother came in and said bro I need to drive the car I need to drive the car he was he never been in trouble he was like fuck you know and his brother like come on man it's nothing drive the car the guy nobody's even in the house we're going to

run up getting the door rob the place leave it's not a big deal he was like he's like so I did it. That's it. It's over. 30 years. That sucks, man. On a violent crime, you're going to do 85% of your time in the Fed, in a wheelchair. Aren't the equity under the law thing? And I mean, there is none in my opinion, but, uh, it's a harsh system, bro. It's harsh. It's, the funny thing is the first time, it's nonviolent the first time, it's typically not that harsh. But the same, but the second time it's brutal and if it's violent it's brutal pretty much typically brutal the first time so but hey you know i nobody's asking my opinion um so what's going on what are you doing

what are you doing now man i wrote a i wrote a very rough draft about all this i had a couple years off i've been a over-the-road truck driver for 15 years so salute to all your drivers out there it's i have a hard work yeah i was going to say i have a buddy who does it uh mike hudson every time i talk to him he gripes and screams and bitches and moans about it it's hard fuckers yeah i mean i was a road where i was a trainer so i would work 330 days out of the year and i had to train students that right you don't know who you're getting but i mean i ran ran coast to coast and then i bought my own truck and ran the oil fields which i got pulled over in south texas a few months ago four times in 12 days on random inspections because the board the governor's

protecting our borders somehow by pulling over sand trucks and and inspecting us but the the trooper told us we know you guys run 24 hours in in the oil fields it's it's crazy man and but that's what i've been i mean i worked my whole life had a couple x ys You know? Oh, my God. It's truck driving. That's this horrible, bro. Like, Mike Hudson does it, and Mike's like, you couldn't do it.

You couldn't do it. You remember Mike? Mike's so I'm like, oh, it seems hard. Mike, it's too hard for you. You couldn't do it. Oh, God, Mike. He's a tough guy. I loved it.

For a scammer, because you're always plotting. You're trying. When we had paper log books, I mean, people wouldn't understand, but you're just constantly, how can I manipulate this time, time, time? And as a trainer, I work for a company that had a lot of freight. So the trainers kind of, they can, we can run more time. So you become the elite. And the little solo drivers, here's Matt driving, he's got a good load.

But there's a trainer, a shark coming, and I try to get your load because I can take it farther. And I don't know, it's, it's hard work, but I, I liked it. but when things aren't going on right this dangerous like people get hurt all the time guys get into a car like you get into a car accident in a fucking truck like it's you you could be killed like it's imagine you have to trust this guy that you've never met that's driving your truck out of driving school yeah it's i was a traitor for seven years i met all kinds of crazy some mostly cool guys just to hear stories from all of the country a few the mentally ill ones they're you got a state live with them it's like having a cellie i think you know it's smaller

than a prison cell but um i met some cool cats met met a guy from dc that did time i don't know if you've ever heard of lorton prison it was you know dc doesn't have a jail it's not a state yeah it's all federal right they all before that they had a prison called lorton it was in virginia and he called it the most corrupt prison in america but uh This guy was like an inner city king pen and he had so many stories, you know, and the happiest guy I've ever met, you know, he never got mad or anything. But it was, it was cool. That's what I've been doing.

I literally jumped off a truck. I just got fed up with it. So I had a couple years off and my mom's getting older. So I've been helping with her take care. I've done a lot of cooking and finding TV shows for my mom because she can't figure out the streaming stuff and a lot of chick flicks and uh working stuff out in my head by writing writing the story and writing your life story i think you mentioned you did that when you were it's very therapeutic it's very cathartic you look back at things and see them in a different light

i hope so i'm in a good place i guess as good as i've ever been i was nervous on this thing so But I try. Thank you for having me. Thank you for showing any interest at all. Can you think of anything we didn't cover? We're good. I could talk a lot of stuff, but you said to keep it on topic. Hey, I appreciate you guys watching.

If you like the video, do me a favor. Share the video because that really does help with the algorithm, even more so than leaving a comment. So share the video with your friends and family. do me a favor and subscribe to the channel hit the bell you know leave me a comment we're going to leave any links that um that kyle has in the description box and i really do appreciate you guys watching thank you very much see you no i was uh born in miami grew up in clearwater tampa area um i moved to knoxville tennessee probably about eight years ago okay and that's where i caught

my case was in knoxville all right Um, so, so what, so we're, so you weren't, I mean, mom, dad, like, um, you know, I had a good childhood for the most part, kind of gotten to like drugs and street life at a younger age, you know, um, but I'd say when I was about 25, I met my ex-wife, um, and, and, you know kind of went straight for a while right well i mean so you graduated high school you were what were you doing after high school oh uh just i mean you said when you went you went said when straight makes it seem like you were doing something selling drugs oh okay that was in in high school or after high school or in high school after high school um you know started

selling weed not really on any like big scale right then the pills kind of hit um Tampa area right oxies yeah and you know I was selling lots of oxies and developed a habit to say the least you know but I was counterfeiting a little bit when I was younger kind of toyed with it and never on not on like a huge scale but you know I couldn't get the bills perfect but I was selling them and making a little bit of money and then did that for like a year and then stopped right when you say younger how how young like 19 20 right what were you using then just basic equipment over the counter yeah yeah i mean even recently i was using you know i didn't have like printing presses and you know what i mean

it's all digital nowadays like the capability of uh digital printers is like advanced extremely in the past 10 years um and that's what the secret service was like wondering uh how i got the bills to look so good with just regular you know 200 300 printers but I'm a graphic designer so a lot of it has to do with like breaking the images down and sharpening them right on the digital file well so so you were basically were just kind of like selling drugs and make ends meet and you would counterfeit a little bit but you said then you met your your wife and stopped or yeah I met my wife um so we decided to move to Knoxville um because my parents moved up in that area her mom lived up in north georgia so we were just kind of getting

out of florida um and i you know got a job in the sign business was doing doing good you know i mean i still had a drug habit but i've always been functioning you know what i kept the job and a house and everything you know i've got kids so um but at this sign company i ended up wrecking a truck so i had a newborn baby it was like you know those late nights tired i got called into work um i worked like 80 hours that week with a newborn baby at home like not sleeping so i was doing a service call in a bucket truck and wrecked the truck because i fell asleep at the wheel so basically that like they let me go at that job because of that or whatever reason um and uh and this was like two months before our lease was up in our house too so i lost

my job didn't have a lot of money saved so that's kind of what put me back into the counterfeiting thing i was like well i've got two months to figure out a new house a new house and you know a way to make money so i kind of just said fuck it let's go back to to this and do it on a larger scale um so i within those two months before my lease was up i basically just stayed at home on the computer 10, 12 hours a day, like, you know, making these digital images is sharp and clean. So, like, to prevent counterfeiting, you can't scan a picture of a bill or print one because the printer, like, recognizes that image and it just, it'll print like just a little bit of it and then just stop.

Really? Yeah. So you, instead of scanning the pictures, I'd just take a photo and then upload that photo which kind of got around that security measure that the printers have and then like with graphic design I would take that image and break it down to like three or four different images so so it would print it so the printer wouldn't recognize the bill because you're you're taking the background color and having one image that's just the background color of the bill and then another image with the serial numbers and treasury seal and then another image with all the black work and you just

running the paper through over and over again three I've been printed three prints for the front of the bill and two prints for the back of the bill and then I printed the strip in the watermark on the back of the back so then I could then glue the two pieces together and the you know the strip and watermark would be embedded in them how are you getting this strip I just printed it so I was using in this the Secret Service said that this was like a large key to my success was I was using Bible paper to print the bills on how did how did you figure out how to use bible paper trial and error lots of uh so like i've read uh the art of making money yeah yeah and you know he was sandwiching too i think

what's his name art art williams yeah yeah i knew i had a buddy who was uh locked up with him oh yeah yeah he said when he after when the book came out he said art was walking around passing out he was he said man he would tell him everybody that about the book and he was um yeah it was a good book it was a good book I read it in prison

yeah that's what originally gave me the idea to start counterfeit when I was like 19 I was reading that book but I knew he he sandwiched two pieces together I think he was using like

like telephone book paper news print or some kind of other thing I know he had through trial and he had got eventually I knew he was ordering the paper yeah and he couldn't he couldn't order

the exact size paper that the that the um that they were using for bills so he figured okay fuck it i'll i'll order half the size and just glue them together and that'll give me the ability to inside of it to be able to glue the also glue the um see i think a large portion of his deal was he was trying to find paper that would mark yellow with the counterfeit pen see i i found kind of a way around that so like the bible paper was thin enough to sandwich two sheets together and opaque enough to you couldn't see the strip and watermarked through it unless you held it up to the light. So it was, and for some reason, certain kinds of Bible paper aren't, like, bleached.

So if you put it in a black light, it glows that dull purple, just like real money. Right. As opposed to, like, all other papers glow that bright blue, like, fluorescent color. So basically Bible paper was, like, perfect. I mean, it was opaque, it was thin, it glowed right in a black light. And it didn't mark with a pen, though. So I would spray it with a matte lacquer spray to create a barrier because counterfeit pens are iodine-based ink. So like the iodine in the ink reacts with the starch in the paper.

So by spraying it with lacquer, you create a barrier. So there's no chemical reaction between the iodine pen and the paper. So and then that helped like it seems like every security feature I'd be solved multiple issues. You know what I mean? Which was just they exponentially got better every time I. So like the lacquer spray not only helped with the counterfeit pen, but it also gave it that crisp texture, like real thin. You know, if you spray it with lacquer and just take an iron to it real quick.

Yeah, it becomes crispy. And then hold and spray another coat of lacquer from a distance. It would feel like sandpaper. And then you take it and just go on the edge of a table and it crisped up and it knocked off that gritty sandpaper feel, but gave it that texture. People would scratch the feel of the texture and the ink and stuff. so it so it felt like paper it I mean felt like money looked like money it marked it it beat the black light and and you could see through it just like normal money so it was just it's basically flawless I mean from the you brought paperwork from the secret service and your discovery and stuff so how long did it take you to figure all that out though um like so within the two months that like my lease was up I got fired I had two months to figure stuff out so within those two months i uh i don't remember exactly how the bible paper came apart it was just

kind of trial and error i was looking for thin paper and i basically just one day felt it and was like oh this is thin i tried it and it worked great so um you know within those two months i edited the images i broke them down zoomed in got rid of all the gray fuzzy you know like sharpened the images because it was a photo yeah um which i mean high resolution cameras take pretty good photos already but to so like each print has to be color matched if you just print like the picture of a hundred dollar bill the colors will be off because in order to get the the green on the treasury seal and serial numbers correct the background color will be off right vice versa yeah cool because it's printed on paper that's slightly colored and has fibers and all the other

stuff right yeah like the paper i believe they they use like just dyed paper but i'm printing the background color so you got to match that to money you know what I mean right so you know know in those two months I after it took well it took more than two months I started kind of doing it after two months and making money a buddy of mine that worked at the sign company with me like so one of my buddies called me and was like because like I said I had a drug problem at the time you know on top of being broke and no job and having a you know at least a hundred two hundred a day heroin habit for kids you know but a buddy of mine called me and was like you know if you if you need any any dope call this dude i'm not going to say the name right a buddy of mine at the

sign company i knew he sold a little bit of weed and uh but i didn't know you know the extent or anything because we were just working together so he got fired from the sign company i got fired so i called him one day and went over to his house to get some some stuff and uh you know he was way bigger of a drug dealer than I thought you know what I mean like he was dealing in multiple you know like meth heroin coke weed right all sorts of professional yeah so I and I ran it by him I was like you know I'm starting to to print some money again you know what I mean maybe you could use it to re-up in Atlanta because at this point I was nervous about spending on myself I always wanted to just sell them to people right you didn't want to go into a store

hand somebody and then they go oh hold on a second the security guard shows up and arrests you the bills got progressively better so like each bill i'm i'm hand making so it's like you're cutting them out you're spraying it you're squeaging and gluing and then using uh i was using holographic green eye shadow to paint on the color shifting 100 right um so like the more you do it the more practice you get in the better they look so in the beginning i i wasn't i knew they looked good they were passable but like i was still nervous about going into stores and shopping you know what i mean so i started giving this guy this drug dealer bills to go to Atlanta and uh you know buy drugs so he started doing that um and eventually like this this only lasted probably three or four

months um but he got his house got rated so so what what is so if you're giving him 10,000 or 5,000, I don't know how much you're giving him to buy the drugs. If you're giving him 10,000, like, what percentage of actual money are you getting in return for that? About 20% usually. Okay. I mean, it was circumcision. He was a friend of mine.

So if he was five grand short on re-upping, I may just give it to him. And he, you know, but then another time I'd give him 10, he'd give me, you know, $2,500 or whatever. It's usually about $0.20 on the dollar or $0.25. But that only lasted a few months. and I was kind of like perfecting the bills as I was working with him I was giving him a lot of fake 20s I was doing 20s too at that time because those the 20s I wasn't putting strips in or anything those I was just printing on regular paper with no strips or watermarks

he was just mixing it in with large sums of money to re-up right the hundreds obviously people tend to scrutinize more and those need security features all in the beat but but he got arrested his house got raided and one of his charges was possession of counterfeit money so it made me kind of nervous you know what I mean I don't you know I you don't know if I heard that he might be cooperating of course I mean

you know you never know and like I'd say well no this was before the lease was up so after a couple months I was doing it for a couple months and then he got arrested and I was at my house one day and we we missed the track You know, we didn't bring the trash by the road one morning. I know that's how, you know, the Secret Service tries to get a search warrant. If they suspect you're counterfeiting, they'll go through your trash cans first to look for evidence, you know. So I'd always bag up my trash separately, like all the counterfeiting.

I had like an office with, you know, different color shifting sprays, ventilation to spray it with lacquer indoors. But I'd bag up all the trash, you know, separately. but about a week after he got arrested I noticed the trash truck was it was like trash picked up on a Monday and this was like a Wednesday and it was just parked outside of my house so I'm like that's weird

I'm like oh can you take I forgot to bring the trash down can you take this so we can't throw it in absolutely we can boom dump it in it was empty you could tell it made a big sound and then they just drove off and like a black blacked out suburban drove off after them so that like spooked me you know what i mean i knew there was no no counterfeiting evidence in there

but still it you know you're being watched it it appeared that way so um which the secret service in knoxville said i mean i after i got arrested i asked them if that was them if they knew they didn't admit to it i don't know if they would though but right but anyway so then my lease was up so i was like fuck this i'm not even getting a new house i'm gonna go all in with this money thing and we'll just stay at hotels you know um so we started living at uh hotels um and i just met multiple different drug dealers and and usually i'd uh you know rip them off basically like there were a few at the end that i was honest with them about the bills but like usually i'd just go buy heroin from these drug dealers and you know i'd get them for five grand 10 grand with heroin right so you

You're giving five grand of fake bills, getting $5,000 in heroin, and then you're reselling the heroin. I mean, yeah, doing it, selling it, whatever, you know. Well, I mean, I'm assuming you're making some, you've got to be making money. You're living in a hotel. Oh, yeah, yeah, of course. Well, that's, and by this point, so I started, like,

the first time I actually went in and broke a bill, it was in a taco bell, which now I know, like, you don't go to fast food restaurants because a lot of those places have the safes under there with like bill validators. It's basically like a vending machine safe. Right. That's how they deposit money

as you put it through this bill validator. And my bills didn't work in that because it detects like infrared and magnetic ink and all these other security features. So, but at the time, I didn't know that because I just started breaking them. I went into a Taco Bell at like midnight

before they closed and she just held it up. I bought like two tacos. She gave me $95. Right. So I was like, you know, I was nervous at first, but it worked. without a problem at all. Did they ever figure it out later?

Because you have photos and stuff of you passing bills. Yeah, yeah. Well, that was... I don't know if that was one of them. You're saying no? No, no. Eventually, you know, whatever store, they get a counterfeit bill. At the end of the week, the armored truck will come pick up their deposit,

take it to the bank, and then the bank will realize that this money's fake. Right. But then they only have a window of, okay, we got this counterfeit bill within this week of time. yeah they don't have any idea it's not worth it's not worth you'd have to review a week's worth of footage even them you're not getting your hundred bucks back exactly so now i spent six hundred dollars reviewing or a thousand dollars reviewing footage you're going to pay a federal a special agent to sit there for a week reviewing footage so you just hit yeah i felt pretty confident that uh i could just start shopping right that point um so you know basically me and my

wife but the problem was finding the Bible paper um because I tried to buy it in bulk online but apparently there's there's only three manufacturers of Bible paper and you have to buy it in the world those three and you have to buy it in like giant reams right which was just not you know didn't want to do that I didn't want a paper trail of you know receiving a palette of Bible paper you know so I'd go on road trips to uh you know Atlanta Chattanooga I was in Knoxville. I went to every bookstore. I was Googling bookstore, Barnes & Noble, books a million, going there and just ripping out the blank four to ten to twenty blank pages in the back. So like in a Bible section at a Barnes & Noble, say there's a hundred Bibles with, you know,

four to ten sheets in each one. I mean, that one bookstore is worth a hundred grand. Right. Worth of paper. So, but eventually that, you know, eventually I literally ripped out every blank page of every Bible from Atlanta to Cleveland, Ohio, you know. So I started paying maintenance men at hotel. I went, I was living out of hotels. So every day I'd check into a new hotel room and take at least a two, three, four blank pages out of the Bible and the nightstand. And one day we checked into a hotel and there was no Bible there. So I saw the maintenance guy and I was like, hey, let me get the Bible. I was like, you don't keep Bibles in the rooms anymore? He's like, no, we've got boxes of them in the maintenance closet.

So I was like, let me buy those. I'm like, I'll give you a gram of dope, a hundred bucks, whatever. Let me get those boxes of Bibles. So we were paying maintenance guys to, you know, just bring us all the Bibles from each hotel. Right. And one of my, the co-conspirator that set me up was going up to Cleveland, Ohio, to buy drugs. And he was paying maintenance guys at hotels to, you know. I was giving him fake money.

He was going up there to buy heroin and come back with heroin and Bible paper. um but yeah i mean well the guy that uh and what happened the guy that uh and what happened the guy that set me up i i ended up like meeting him from uh just buying how long did this go on for about two years so for two years you're living in hotels yeah yeah pretty much hopping around see like with counterfeiting you got a you have to move around yeah i mean you don't want to sit which that was a mistake of mine was spending too much in knoxville um which that was the reason i i got caught was because guys set me up up in cleveland ohio right but um still just in retrospect i was spending too much

money in knoxville i spent like 400 000 in fake bills in knoxville in the course of like a year and a half so um but uh so did did did you ever see the movie to live and die in L.A.? No, I've heard of it, and it's William Defoe, and he was printing money. Oh, you've got to see that movie. It's a great movie. Yeah, I'd like to see that.

I know about it. I've been meaning to watch it, but... Yeah, I mean, it's old. Like, how old are you? 35. Fuck, it's probably 25, 30 years old. It was the 80s, I think. Yeah, but it'd be great, though.

You'd love it. You'd love it. This guy's like super professional, but, you know, it's also, there's this, it's dangerous. You know, you realize that, I mean, there's tons of fucking money. It's a dangerous, it can be a dangerous situation. And he's been, they know they're tracking him. They're all over him. And he knows everything.

He knows their tactics and he knows what they can do and what they can't do. Like, he literally knows he's talking to FBI agents. Yeah. Or are they secret? I think they have. I think back then it was FBI. Well, I know, Secret Service always been counterfeit. It would have always been counterfeit.

But it's still, and the thing, I think they're FBI. FBI, but regardless, only because people don't realize Secret Service. I have people, when I get arrested, they're like, Secret Service, Cox is lying. He wasn't arrested by the Secret Service. They only, they only protect the president or, and, and, and, and, and, and you us money. And they wouldn't be after him. He's lying. It's like, motherfucker, you don't know what you're fucking talking.

Secret Service took over, like, all financial crimes. Right. Especially if it deals with identity theft. Yeah. Like, any financial crime should still be investigated. by the FBI, but if identity theft is involved and almost always get shifted to the secret service, yeah. But regardless, yeah, I mean, great movie. You got to watch that movie. I'm sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Got to watch that movie. I'd like to watch it. So one of these guys, I was buying heroin

from, I probably got them for like $10,000 over the course of a few weeks. And these have never come back on you? Well, see, a lot of times I'd do that, get about five, ten grand worth, and then just stop calling them. Because, you know, you don't know if you buy 500 bucks or a dope from somebody

and it's fake, you call them the next day to buy 500 more dollars, you know, you don't know. Some of these guys might have found out and are fucking pissed and trying to set you up. Yeah, that you show up and they got a gun. So you really have to be able to read people over the phone and kind of you know, which, but eventually when people did find out, they weren't even mad because they

were, you know, they'd hold them up. These drug dealers would think they were real. And then they'd go re-up with it or go shopping and spend them. And they, they always worked. So even when they found out like, oh, these bills were fake, you've been giving me nothing but fake bills, like they'd laugh because they didn't lose any money, you know what I mean? They'd be like, this white boy just got me from 10 grand. Like, more power to you, you know what I mean? So this one guy in particular um you know i came uh well at one point i did rent a little house i had roommates and we were staying in a house for a couple months but so at that point where's the wife at this point she's with me i mean we're traveling around you know what i mean with the kids in the hotels

and shopping every i mean that was my job was to you know basically wake up in the morning go spend money print make you know say 2500 bucks go shopping, spend it all, get real money, get a hotel room, tape paper to do the printing part, because the Bible paper's too thin. So you'd have to tape it on a regular piece of printer paper to feed it through. So I'd sit there all night, tape and Bible paper, you know, have a stack like this for the next morning to print them and then go shopping. And it was just every day was a, you know, it was like a job, you know what I mean?

Yeah, constantly just a lucrative. Well, you're making money. I mean, that was the whole goal, you know. I mean like you I do selling drugs doing all this stuff to make money it's like really just cut out the middleman that's that was my thinking you know what I mean if I can find the way to make legitimately good money that passed every time there's no point in not doing that in right you know in my eyes but so this one guy went home and he was standing in my driveway I was going to say the people you were clipping too are drug dealers so even if they get caught

with the money who you know it's not like it's not like it's fucking a little lady or thing you know and most drug dealers think that counterfeit like i've had a few that found out and i'm like well do you still want you want to start buying them from me and that oh i don't fuck with counterfeit you know that's serious and i'm like you're you're selling heroin you're selling heroin yeah well you know i got i got a year in the feds for counterfeit and hundreds of thousands of dollars you're you're trafficking heroin interstate with guns on you and you're worried about counterfeit well he's just in he just hadn't got caught by the right people yeah once you get 15 years fuck yeah all right heroin conspiracy every counterfeiter every counterfeiter I ever met in in prison had hadn't it they were always like the second or third time like they were getting like two years three years you know five years and it's this third time he's doing it and he got like five years it's like fuck yeah they say the the recidivism rate of counterfeiting is is higher than a heroin addict yeah but listen the one of the highest recidivism rates is is fraud and that probably they're saying that probably falls within the fraud department

higher than drug dealers but so the guy you said one time you had moved into a place and yeah i i went pulled in the driveway and he was standing in my driveway and this is a drug dealer i've been ripping off every day for two months and so i'm thinking like oh fuck right this is going to be a problem you know what i mean but i was i was buying the heroin through this this girl that was a roommate so like i'd go up to people like i was buying stuff from drug dealers every all the addicts i knew I'd be like, hey, get, you know, help me set up your drug dealer and we'll split it because that way it doesn't fall on me. So in this case, I was doing that with this girl, but we were living together.

So when it fell on her, I was still there. So, but basically I overheard him saying like, I'm not mad. I just want to, I just want to find out where you were getting these from. So I, like, heard that. I just walk in the house, you know, the next day I go up to her, I'm like, give me that dude's number. so I call him and I'm like I'm the guy you're looking for you know what I mean yeah let's meet up and we can talk in person so I meet up with him and of course see all these drug dealers when they do find out the bills are fake they're like I want two

million dollars worth in a week yeah and they don't realize like I'm not just photocopying these each one you're cutting them out spraying is labor intensive it's exactly I mean you're it takes probably 10 I mean I got it down to where I could make make a $100 bill in probably 10 minutes. Right. But still, I mean, if you factor a million dollars worth, that's going to take months of cutting, spray, and, you know, letting it dry. You're paying your bills.

You just have to pay your bills. You still have to do it. Yeah. And in the end, how are you going to move a million dollars? Well, and that's the other thing. Like, I tried to keep everything under 10,000 because that's the other thing. I was printing the 96 series 100. So I figured it'd be kind of weird to go by, you know, four,

kilos of heroin with all 96 series hundreds you know i mean right kind of cause suspicion you know plus those you have to acquire the the the you have to acquire the the you have to acquire the paper you have to require i mean it's just it's just very labor intensively it said in my paperwork that that was the issue i mean obviously the paper you know what i mean i'd make a road trip to say chattanooga hit up four different bookstores walmarts get all the bible paper in the whole fucking city and it'd be enough to to make a hundred thousand dollars worth but you know then you have to make it spend it you know what i mean so it was a constant like i said it was a job like you'd go to one city collect the bible paper in a couple days then spend the next couple days you know printing

and making bills and then the next couple days shopping so i'd go to different cities for a week at a time to you know pass you know acquire the materials make them and then and then pass them so with a guy he wanted a million oh yeah i was like man doesn't work like that i was like you know if you want say when you're going to cleveland to re-up i'll you know i'll sell you 10 grand for 2 500 you know i mean so he started doing that um you know and and he'd have his real cash in there too but he was getting a discount on his heroin because you know basically 10 or 15 of the thousand dollars he was buying at a 25% rate so right but eventually that that guy specifically was the one that set me up and he got uh so one time he was supposed

to go up to cleveland and i was supposed to go with him so like he was going to re-up and i was going to you know bust bills i would go around shopping um and i ended up getting arrested on i think it was like a failure to appear some little petty thing i went to jail like bonded out the next day but in that time i guess he just went to cleveland without me um Um, so I, I got out. Um, and one of his, uh, little runner girls that was selling dope for him, uh, told me, like, she said, uh, you know, he, uh, he told me not to tell anybody, but he, he's in jail up in Cleveland. So I was like, he told you not to tell anybody. Yeah. I'm like, that's a red flag. You know what I mean? So, um, and that's, yeah, towards that part, we ended up renting a house. together as well and he was selling dough he was like the trap house with me in the back room with ventilation fans right blowing lacquer out the windows and making money um so i went to that

house she she informed me ease in jail up in cleveland he told me not to tell you i was like he told you know yeah yeah well i'm getting my stuff and getting the fuck out of here then so you know we uh get all the printers, computers, ventilation fans, all this stuff, and go get a hotel room. And, you know, there's a lot of information you find out in discovery. So, like, at the time, I was just thinking, okay, he's probably cooperating. Right. I need to be gone. I need to get out of here.

Stop talking to him. So, like, two days later, I'm in this hotel, and he calls me. And he's like, hey, man, I got that Bible paper. Let's meet up. And I was like, no. No, man. No, the first thing he should have said was, bro, I got arrested. The first thing, that's the first thing you say is because, you know, you don't want people assuming that you're cooperating.

Yeah, in the moment you don't mention that as being a major issue. Exactly. Exactly. I'm no dummy. You know what I mean? I've been doing this a minute. So basically he's like, oh, let's meet up. I got this Bible paper.

And I was like, no. I was like, I'm just going to live out of hotels for a while again. I think our relationship is over. You know what I mean? And he was like, why, what do you mean? you know and I was like first of all you're acting fucking sketchy bro like you got arrested you didn't tell me that's a I'm like what are you doing bro I'm like even if you didn't cooperate in reality I still don't trust you anymore you know we're done so and he gave me this story like

oh yeah I did get arrested um but they didn't they didn't find anything it was because he had a stolen car he bought a car with a title and end up being stolen and I knew that like I told him he was like, I bought this 2000, what was it, a 2010 charger for 500 bucks in an eight ball. I'm like, bro, that's stolen, obviously stolen. He was like, I've got the title, it's not, we're good. I'm like, whatever, bro, it's stolen. I guarantee you bought it from some junkies for 500 bucks, bro, it's stolen. So he was saying, oh, that car was stolen.

He was like, you were right, man, that car was stolen. He's like, but that's the only reason I got arrested. So I had to use that money to the money I was going to re-up with to bond out. so I couldn't re-up so I'm back in Knoxville let's meet up and I was like no again I'm like bro it's not happening you know what I mean he was like well well can you he was trying to get me to get him a kilo heroin through some other people I knew and he knows I don't like I mean I dibble and dab with drugs you know yeah but I wasn't I'm not selling kilos on the on the phone he's like get me you know 700 grams of heroin I'm like on the phone I'm like what are you what are you doing bro so

Needless to say, I just hung up once you asked for that. I was like, man, you're out of your mind. And I specifically was like the feds are listening. Yeah. So I was like, you're the drug dealer. Why are you asking me for drugs? You are the drug dealer. I'm just some junkie remembers to buy, you know, hang up the phone.

And, well, sure enough, they GPS pinged my phone to the location of where the hotel was. And just even talking to him is what led to my arrest. Nice. So how they, so they, what happened? How they grab you? They come and knock on the door? real lightly and ask you to please come outside and well can you can you meet it can you meet us at the station well the uh at your convenience so i was uh staying in a hotel room with my wife at the time and

this other other chick dylan um who was selling drugs for these detroit people um but anyway so they uh i woke up and we woke up in the morning and i was going to you know start printing i think I, somebody, one of the Detroit guys wanted like six grand, I think, or something. He put in like an order, so I was going to make six grand. They went shopping so that, you know, I'm in there. I start, you know, cutting paper, spraying, printing all this. My wife and Dylan leave to go shopping. That's all I know.

About 15 minutes later, I get a knock on the door. So I look through the peephole and it's just black. Yeah. So my first instinct was like, Oh, that, you know, the Detroit people that are selling dope out of this room, somebody's probably trying to rob them or something. Because I was thinking the police would just kick down the door. Like, I didn't think they put, you know what I mean, put a thumb over it. So I was like, you know, go away, nobody's here, you know what I mean?

And knock again, you know, black thumb over the people, look out the window, and I see just the line of Knox County sheriffs. I was like, that's it, bro. You know what I mean? So I start trying to flush this paper money. money. And I didn't, at the time, I was, I was in the process of making it, so it was all one-sided. I hadn't glued it together yet. So technically that's not illegal because you're allowed to print money as long as it's black and white, well, it was 50% smaller, 150% bigger, black and white or one-sided. So you can print money all day long as long as it's one-sided. But they have the other bills. Well, they have, yeah, the problem was the computer, because all my bills had different series. numbers so each file on this computer that uh could then link me to every serial number that i produced you know right it was the evidence that it wasn't i didn't get possession of anything

but they got a laptop with yeah yeah you know all the files that could link me to every every bill that i it's it's all those those little tiny things that you're thinking well technically at this and tech bro you don't want to go to fucking you don't want to go to trial on technically yeah yeah you're just I wouldn't go to trial with the feds. I wouldn't go to trial with the feds if I was innocent. Yeah. I always say, look, if they came in right now, the DEA arrested me right now and said, hey, we got you selling four fucking kilos of Coke.

I'd be like, well, can I get a deal? Like what? Because I know you're going to prove it. You're going to be able to prove it. If they can't prove it, they're going to get somebody to say it. That's what I'm saying. Even if I've never been seen, seen it. I know that at trial, you can prove this somehow.

You already think you. That's how you got the indictment. I know I'm done. That's just the state, people don't even realize that's really where you live. Well, the feds don't, yeah, like you said, the feds don't even indict you unless they, they've got it. Yeah. You know, that's why you, like in my case, I had state charges. So, you know, knock on the door, I start flushing this paper money.

You know, I put like probably two grand in the toilet and flush it. I go to put another few thousand in the toilet, but I guess they shut the water off. Yeah, they're not stupid. So they, see, because like when dude asked me for that, like, 700 grams of heroin or whatever, they were assuming there was drug task force there they were assuming like there's kilos of dope in this hotel room so there was organized crime unit drug task force Cleveland Secret Service Knoxville Secret Service KPD you know so they they saw all these bills are just in the toilet now that won't flush so I'm that doesn't look suspicious at all at that point they start kicking the door in which you know it's like steel reinforced doors caused the you know a fucking panic attack because it's like I was hoping they just kick it in get it over with the me they're sitting there boom boom boom boom you know for like five minutes and i don't i mean you're in a hotel room what the fuck do you do you know yeah there's no back door i just sit down light a cigarette

wait for him to come in and you know obviously they throw me down you know all that good stuff but so they arrested me on state charges for the first like three four months um of a criminal criminal simulation is what the state charge was until the feds could simulation of what money criminal simulation is the charge yeah that's okay well it's basically just their generic i mean you can get criminal simulation i think it's just uh it's like a state charge it's generic for like fraud basically oh okay you know but uh yeah it was i never heard that that's all you never heard that no listen bro i think every state has different yeah yeah yeah but uh you know so i think the original charge was like criminal simulation

over 60 000 or something and then you know three months later you go to court the state's gonna drop your charges. Yay! Great. I already knew, you know, knew it was coming. So then,

of course, they've taken me across the street to the federal building, served me an indictment. I always love the guys that they actually let them out. They actually,

like, walk out and make a mistake. Yeah, give them hope, you know, let them into the lobby. And they're free for like a good 30 seconds and they're like,

hi, I'm so and so from the Marshall Barthus. I already knew. They had a bond source, bond source hearing on my charges, which, you know what that is? Like,

if you're, if you're going to bond out, where the money come from? Yeah, you've got to prove it's legitimate and all this, which I already knew that gives, that's like a sign the feds are going to indict you because that basically, you can't just bond out and get out. You've got to supply the money and then they set up a court date in a week so you can prove it. So it gives the feds a week's head start to serve you the indictment if you do try and bond out. But that was it. They let me out on pretrial for a little bit and sentenced me to 10 months.

Right. Well, you got 10 months, but you would, you said the actual, that at some point the secret, they came to you, they wanted to give you more time. Like, initially you were supposed to get more time, but the, yeah, the original guidelines was, I think it was like 24 to 36 or something, like two to three years. Right. And so the Secret Service basically came to me. Well, let's go back, the dude E that set me up. Once I got arrested there, they let him go as an informant. Right.

You know what I mean? And then he disappeared. So he was on the run. Because, like, it's complicated, but like the, so the Cleveland secret sir. Which could have been good for, that could be good for you. It's great. Yeah. Yeah.

Because now, now you got, well, now you got nobody to connect me with any of this shit. And he can't get on a stand and prove if you were to go to trial. Well, they got the laptop with the, I mean, the evidence was in my possession. Yeah, okay. But. It still weakens their case. Yeah, yeah. But also, like.

um so he he went on the run like basically he cooperated got me arrested and then he disappeared um and then like i guess i was incarcerated at this point but i heard that maybe two three months later he was in knoxville again accidentally fired a gun in his apartment the the kpd went in there accidentally i was the fucking idiot man kpd arrested him after all all this he wanted to be an informant for KPD, Knoxville Police Department. He's a professional now. Yeah, apparently. You know, so KPD is excited, obviously.

Like a multi-kilo dealer willing to cooperate, so they let him go again. Of course, he goes on the run again. You know, he just makes promises to the police and tries to disappear, which I don't blame him, you know, whatever. So he was on the run. So when the Secret Service came to me, they were like, listen, this guy that said you up, your co-defendant, he was a co-conspirator on my case. They were like, he's on the run now. We're trying to get him.

So when he cooperated, the Cleveland Secret Service promised, you know, you get us this guy. We won't press charges on you for the counterfeit. He does that, but then he takes them to Knoxville. So then the Eastern District of Tennessee just indicted him. So it was just like he got a deal from the Cleveland Secret Service, but then the Knoxville Secret Service, you know. So anyway, he was a co-defendant on my case. case um and you know the secret service basically said you know we'll give you cooperation credit if you show us how you made these bills you know right confirm everything he already told us

make a training video for the secret service for future agents you know explain go through all the evidence and show them yeah they have to be experts on on bills so to to best the best way to be an expert is figure out exactly how these bills are being made so that you can detect them and see so and they need that and they wanted you know to know certain things to look out for and this and that so i mean this the secret service said that the bills i was making were the best they've seen in like 25 years nice so they um you know said make a training video for future agents and we'll give you cooperation credit so that that along with uh you know like admitting guilty yeah yeah timely timely timely uh timely yeah timely plea and acceptance of responsibility yeah so

they basically said if you plead guilty today we'll keep uh you know plead guilty today and make this training video confirm everything he told us already you know plead guilty we'll keep the amount under a hundred thousand dollars which avoids an enhancement because anything over a hundred thousand is an enhancement so they like it was like 96000 whatever they kept it just under 100 000 um and uh we they wouldn't charge my wife with anything so all her charges would be dropped and you know with i knew with looking at like two to three years with the cooperation and that enhancement gone i'd only be looking at like a year so of course i couldn't cut that you know i think they said at that time they were like we found uh 380

000 dollars in Knoxville you were still finding about 10 grand a week it's coming in through the banks and that so you know with that time i don't know how much time i would have been looking at it probably would have been four years because that's another enhancement on this but that's four years if you plead guilty. Like if I know guys, if you go to trial, they'll start stacking the charges. Oh, yeah, yeah, for sure. So, I mean, yeah, that was an offer I could not refuse.

Don't charge my wife, keep it at $100,000. Now I owe $100,000, or $96,000 in restitution, but, you know. It is what it is. It is what it is. So, all right. And now you're out. Three years, starting over.

Fed paper. yeah I just got out I was in Lexington got out like three months ago currently in sober living house in Knoxville what are you doing for work now

well I'm a printer nice working a print shop vinyl shop you know it's called graphical warehouse you know they're good people there I really got lucky landing that job I was honest with them up you know

in the interview I told him like I just got out of prison I was counterfeiting Yeah, well, that's a plus for them. Well, it's experience. I was going to say I wrote a book called Bent about a guy that's, he was a counterfeiting plastic for the Russian mom. And same thing. All his stuff was graphic designs. He was always doing, he's always worked for print shops.

And, you know, that's just what you like doing. I mean, I think it's tempting for people who work, you know, when you're around printers and you know graphic design. There's so many things. You know, like, if you're a capable of. of fraudulently making you know birth certificates money anything your mind's going to jump i mean yeah i could use this for this i could use this for sure you know for sure and the amount of money you can make is unlimited you know unlimited really if you do it right so it's yeah it's it's too good out here you know what i'm saying you go you go to prison for a year or two and you're

like you're just like you know i'm fucking what am i what am i doing like i'm like i'm like i live like this the rest of my life i'd rather live in a fucking somebody's spare room and yeah for sure able to turn the channel when I want and have a fucking cell phone and you know when I was doing that that was the most stressful time of my love obviously I think that I mean I'm making you turns everywhere thinking I'm being followed you know I mean I knew to see there were bolos out there's a couple like pictures that were released on Knoxville websites like well we're looking for this guy for passing a hundred bill you know you're always on on the run thinking you're wanted you're living out of hotel rooms yeah dealing with fucking scumbag drug dealers all the time right you know and in the end when you

walk back out of prison years later where's all that money yeah like you don't have any that money yeah like it's it's it's not it's i mean in my opinion even what i was doing it's just it's just not fucking worth it i'm just plus you owe it all back to them yeah top of that they strip everything from you anyway for sure now you start off and yeah yeah it's bullshit it's not the way to go but um all right i appreciate you watching the videos see you