Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - The Mysterious Link Between Owls & Aliens | Mike Clelland

Episode Date: November 1, 2023

The Mysterious Link Between Owls & Aliens | Mike Clelland

When we saw those owls, both times, I heard a voice in my head and the voice said, this has something to do with the UFOs. Classic gray aliens with the big bald head and the big black guys were walking towards the house. And I was the only one in the house, and I should have been terrified. And I heard a voice in my head that said, oh, yes, they're here. Now is the time to put your head on the pillow in blackout. Just went right to sleep. And I dismissed it completely as a dream.

And we think we know how things work. But the truth is, we probably have a very limited understanding. How can we? A set of lights goes over the parking lot, like this craft. Everything in the parking lot turned red. The cars turned red, the trees turned red, the sky turned red, the asphalt turned red. And that's something that very rarely gets reported in UFO report. Hey, this is Matt Cox, and I am here with Mike Clellan, and he is a UFO researcher.

and author, and we're going to be doing on an interesting podcast, and so check it out. I'm in Michigan, and I'm 60 now, 61 now, I just turned 61 a couple weeks ago, and I lived this kind of, like, leave it to beaver lifestyle in the suburbs of Detroit, and I went to New York City and studied film for a year and dropped out of college, and then I worked as a professional illustrator in New York City for 10 years. So I was, I had a nice apartment. I was on, yep, yeah, I was, I lived, that was in the 80s. So from 81 to and oh, it was great. And then after that, I moved what I thought would be for one year. I was going to be a ski bomb for one year and it turned into 25 years. So it was a ski bomb out west for about half my life. So I moved to

Wyoming and then Idaho and then just put all my energies into skiing and I ended up working for outdoor school and teaching mountaineering in Alaska for a decade or so and so that was a big change from New York City and during that time I I really got a huge deep appreciation of the mountains in the wilderness and being outside and that became a really important part of my life and somewhere in there I started looking into what would have been um I had some experiences with Owls. I can jump right into that if you want. Sure.

Yeah. Yeah. So in 2006, I would have been 44 years old, and I was living in a little town called Dray, Idaho, which is right on the Wyoming border. It's right near Jackson Hole, Wyoming. So it's in this beautiful part of the world. It's right next to the Grand Teton National Park,

and right next to Yellowstone's just an amazing part of the world as far as big wilderness. And so I had been working for the school. all summer long, up in Alaska. In the autumn, I came back down to the lower 48 and came back to the time where I was living. And the school I had a bench. And there was a woman that worked at the branch. And I got into a conversation with her. And she was doing in-town work.

Her name is Kristen. I said, wow, you've been here all summer. Well, you must have a great summer camping out in the mountains all summer long. And said, I haven't camped once. And so I was camping. I told my element camping. I said, I'll take you out camping for me. one night. And this was essentially a first date with a stranger. And it might sound odd, but in

like a camping culture like that, that was pretty normal in a town out west like that. So we went, hiked into the mountains just for one night. It was going to be beautiful weather, so we bothered the tent. We just were going to sleep out under the stars, very minimal amount of gear. And we walked in and to tell the story probably, I have to include a couple of details. I was sitting on a rock making dinner. I was completely a piece. I had spent all summer outside, so I was doing stuff. I felt completely in my element, and I was making dinner for both of us. And this was in a field of wildflowers, and she was talking about something. As the sun was setting, she was talking about something, and I really took note of it. I said, wow, this is, this person is smarter,

and there's more depth to her than I ever would have guessed. And it was at that moment an owl flu. over us. And then second owl and then a third owl. And these three owls flew over us for what must have been the next two hours. So as the sun was setting and we ate dinner, the owls were flying around us. And this was bear country. So what we did is we finished dinner and we just walked another, you know, 10 minutes down the trail, different spot to sleep. So we weren't necessarily sleeping where we had cooked. So we found a different spot to sleep and the owls followed us. And then when we laid down under the stars, we'd set our pads down on the ground, and we were looking straight up into the night sky, into the stars, these owls would swoop down over our faces,

and they're eerily silent in flight. So for just that half a second, they would blot out the stars. It was totally magical. It was totally magical. And so the next morning we get up and we're like, wow, that was great. We walked back to town and just, and I said, hey, that was really wonderful. let's do this again sometime and she said i'd love to so four days later we just we went out for another night and as the sun was setting four owls excuse me three owls is four days later three owls started flying over us again we were in a different part of the mountains many miles away from where we were before and when it happened the time those would be kind of off at a distance they'd be kind of landing on a branch over there they'd kind of fly past us this

time, no, they were like, they were landing at our feet. And to have it happen once was pretty cool, but to have it happen twice was like positively mystical. And I did not talk about this at the time, but I'm talking about it now. When we saw those owls, both times, I heard a voice in my head and the voice said, this has something to do with the UFOs. I was looking to realize. Were you like a UFO?

enthusiast before that at all? I had I had been reading a lot at that point. So for the for the previous I betcha tear I was reading a lot about UFOs in the UFO literature and the research. So so yeah, so I was pretty well versed at that point with the with the with the UFO lower. Right. But so.

So I was like. looking at real owls and I heard that voice in my head and that really that more than anything was the like changed the direction of my life so this is a pretty simple story right it's I went camping with a with a woman we saw some owls but it really really truly changed the direction of my life which which I didn't looking back in it now it's it's sort of a simple story but wow to have an impact on my life what happened was after that I started a blog and the blog was mostly talking about synchronicities or very powerful coincidences in my life and which I had a lot of and I was so I started in that story that I the story I just told

of the seeing owls with Kristen was one of the first posts I put on the blog when I when I started writing back in 2009 it would have been three years after the event and Kristen and I were still good friends she had moved out of the valley and I was wondering what were we talking about the very first we saw this very first owls and I called her up and I said what were we talking about and she said oh I remember exactly what we were talking about she said I was giving my deepest definition of what God means to me now that that I recognize like I'm not at all a churchy person but I recognize like the sort of mythic power to that to her statement talking about something so so highly charged at that moment when the first owls appeared so what happened was I

I in the like right after the event with the three owls I started looking up started researching owls and I started researching UFOs and most particularly I had some events in my youth in my I had I'm happy to talk about any of these I had a close of UFO sighting when I was 12 where I was at a friend's house his name is Kenny I was at his house and it was like a girl little kids having a sleep over and I looked out the window I can't remember whether it was him or me I was at his house, but we looked out the window, and we saw this thing that was sort of shaped like a coffee can. Sort of like, this is a water bottle, but obviously it was like this thing was rotating at this very odd angle, and it was rotating down like this sort of a coffee can shaped thing in the night sky.

And it didn't look like, didn't match anything, didn't match a balloon, didn't match a helicopter, didn't match an airplane. And I, and we watched for about 30 seconds, and it disappeared. And then I remember ran downstairs and I drew it. it. And I still have the drawing. So, and then also around that time, I had a missing time of it, which is a term used in the lore of like UFO contact when someone. So I was walking home from a high school football game with a friend. I was 12 years old. High school football game was at Friday nights. And there was a spot on the sidewalk in my neighborhood. This was a totally idyllic suburbs, completely safe, beautiful night.

And I wanted to be home at 9.30. And I told my parents I'd be home at 9.30. So there was a spot on the sidewalk. I know right where it happened. And it felt like the sky just like click, lit up total. Entire sky lit up orange. And then click went back to normal. Both me and my friend were like, what just happened?

And so it was just a few houses further down the block to my house. And I went into my house. My friend lived a little further into the neighborhood. So he walked home. And I got into the house. And my parents were waiting up for me. And they were, why are you so late? And I said, I'm not late.

I said, I'd be home at 9.30. It should be around 9.30. And they said, it's 11.30. And I remember, I remember clearly the 11 o'clock news was ending. So that would have been about 1130. So there's two hours I can't account for. Now, this was, I was 12 years old. This was long before I had any knowledge of, like,

what the term missing time might mean. And I was just more, like, confused that my parents were angry at me for something that I don't feel like I did. and so these events and a couple more were in my life there was one other one that stood out when I was 30 I went camping with Kristen when I was 30 so 14 years earlier as a young man I was living in rural Maine and I was alone in the house

and I sat in bed and there was a bright light shining through the window and I looked outside and there were what would be five of what the classic gray aliens with the big bald head and the big black guys were walking towards the house and I was the only one in the house and I should have been terrified and I heard a voice in my head that said oh yes they're here now is the time to put your head on the pillow in blackout and I'm right to sleep and I dismissed it completely as a dream and now I'm very suspect of what may or may not have happened that night so um uh So those events were in my life when I heard the voice in my head that said, you know, looking at real owls and the voice said, this has something to do with the UFOs. So I started looking into my UFO experiences, my own memories. And I started reaching out to UFO researchers and they would put me in touch with other people.

So very quickly I found a little network of people I could talk to. And because of the owls, I would ask everyone the same question. I would say, have you ever had any odd experiences with owls? And it wasn't 100%, but it was, and it didn't take long before I was putting in the blog, I was writing little essays about owls and UFO contact and interesting owl stories. So it was very quick that if anyone, any of the world, had an odd experience with an owl, especially with the, in the context of a UFO sighting, they would find me. You just type it.

You can do it right now, type in UFO owl on the first thing that comes up on about the next 25 things under that. So if anyone anywhere in the world has the experience with the powerful, mystical experience with an owl, they're going to find me. And I started, it started out as a trickle. I would get stories coming in. And that's very quickly turned into a flood of stories. So for the last 14 years, 15 years, I have, I have been at the receiving end of a full. of stories. I'm getting lately, I've been

getting like five days and I cannot keep up with them. I can send a little note back. Thank you for your letter and I can't keep up with them. I can't do the... People are reaching out to me with like what would be the most oftentimes they'll begin their letter like this is this this is a story I can't tell my wife. This is a story can't tell my boss. This is inside

myself. But I'm reaching out to you, basically me and then they share these absolutely dreamlike stories involving owls and I have been archiving and collecting and trying to make sense of these stories for about the last 15 years and it has turned into a full-time job so and it's turned into there's I've got three big vet books that are the culmination of these studies so so yeah there was a long question there was a long answer to your question yeah So how are you doing the research on this?

I mean, you're not able to even keep up with the volume that's coming in. Like, are you reaching out to, did you initially reach out to? Oh, I make an effort to reach out, sure. But if people coming to me, then I can reach, then I can respond to, yeah. And what is the conclusion you've come to that there's a, what is the connection? that you've come up with. So the connection is definitive, you know, there's no... Do that definitively, exactly.

So I can dance around, I can speculate what may be. So what I can say absolutely is that owls and UFOs are somehow connected. There is a connection there somehow. And then having gathered so much, so many owl stories, five things that seem to be connected with, with owl. One of them is UFO contact or a close-up UFO sighting. That's certainly connected dolls. The other would be meditation, people who meditate have powerful olive experiences.

And these feel, these have the same flavor and mood as the stories that emerge around the u.S.iding. And then mushrooms, psychedelics, particularly mushrooms, people taking psychedelics will often see owls. And it's not in like a visionary trip, like a, though I certainly, that's part of it. I mean, people will take mushrooms and then an owl will show up and multiple people will see it. So I've got a lot of stories like that. The time around the time of shamanic initiation. So this is, this is something I did not expect. So when someone is studying to be a shaman, and I've had shaman's reach out to me and share their stories.

And there's a, there's a community of shaman's present day. It's not part of like the core of our Western culture, but they're out there on Indian reservations and people studying shamanism in North America. And then people I've contacted people all over the world that have had these experiences. So people who are going through an initiation project, the initiation process, the initiation process to become a shaman will see owls. This is a remarkable aspect to it. And then the final one is owls in death. owls will show up around the time of death, usually after someone dies, usually after a loved one dies. Most of the stories I have are a child whose parent has died, an adult child, their parent dies,

and then an owl will show up shortly after the parent dies, and the child will talk to an owl as if it is their parent. I have this story so many times in my files. and usually it's associated with the end of the grieving process. Like communicating, talking to an owl as if it is your dead parent will, in my, within the stories people have reached out to me, will, the grieving process will end. So like, these are wild, powerful, emotional stories that people are reaching out to me with, like really highly charged. So there's five things.

Those five minutes. One of them is UFO contact. So I feel that the owl is more connected to what I've been calling highly charged human experience, which would be UFO contact, meditation, psychedelics, shamanic initiation, and those five things. There might be more out there, but these are the patterns that I'm clearly seeing in my research. And so I feel that the owl is more connected to the highly charged human experience. and UFO contact is just one of the modestly, if that makes sense. So you're saying, like, maybe they would have, somebody would have some kind of

interaction with an owl or owls, and then shortly thereafter or before, have some type of experience with a UFO? So here's, this was one of a story that got very early on in my research, and in this story has repeated over and over and over again. This is what's what I would is a very simple straight, easy to digest story. Some of them get very trippy and very strange. So a guy named Derek. I sat with him. He's a mine. Sat in the bar with him. He told me this long story. He contacted me and we met up and he was camping. Arizona. There's a big cactus and him and his buddy are looking up at the nighttime sky. And then they notice there's an owl up of this

and they both get the same feeling. They're like, whoa. this is this is more intense than I expected like like an owl has a sort of an ominous person and they felt it right and then the owl flew off they'd watched it for a minute it flew off and then moments later a triangle shaped craft silently passed directly over them and then went down the canyon it sort of hugged the landscape and this guy Derek wow did he fight and try to describe the eeriness and the strangeness of the flight pattern of this this triangle shaped craft it It didn't match. A helicopter didn't match any kind of normal. Craft made absolutely no noise, which is consistent in the reporting. A couple days later, he sees another UFO, this time in full daylight. It's a dot in the sky. And it follows him as he's driving. And then he kind of shares some stories and he said, you know, I was having these dreams and I was having kind of spiritual, you know, kind of like powerful synchronicities. And I was, and it's all led to a spiritual awakening.

And I used to not talk about this aspect of it. And I've talked to research and stuff like that. This is very common. People who will have like a close-up UFO sighting, well, often it'll be a spiritual awakening or change in their religion. And that is, that is well understood and consistent in the research. So. Right.

No, I was going to say, right. I remember you saying that with Danny's whole discussion on how it would, you know, how some of the research papers, they actually, that's one of the questions they ask. The more analytical researchers, you know, well, that's one of their, their questions, right? It's something I ask, yeah. Right. Yeah.

Well, I usually, I wait for people to tell me. Like, they've had a spiritual awakening or the change in their religion. Or, you know, what's another odd thing is people will go back to college and study physics. which is a fun that's that's a funny commonality too that shows up in the in the i mean it's a pattern it's obviously not everyone so so um so in the last i mean so these stories have taken over my life and i'm not going to run out of stories i can i just all they the uh and i've been trying to to answer the question why owls why are so would be there just one of a highly charged event and then you could also sort of take it back and say is

the UFO contact experience some sort of initiatory event? Like if people are having a spiritual awakening, I mean, is the UFO causing the spiritual awakening? These are very murky. I mean, questions are good, it's good to ask the questions. Wow, is it tough to get a definitive answer on anything like that? Well, all they can say is I'm seeing a pattern that people are having a pattern in the experiences that people are having in conjunction with UFOs and owls. And let me also say that I am not looking at like the wide spectrum of UFO research. I mean, there's all kinds of stuff going on from government conspiracies to, you know, all kinds of different experiences that people are having and people reporting and sightings. But I'm just looking at the thin little narrow sliver within the big collective totality of the data.

I'm just pulling on the thread of UFOs and owls. And so my research is sort of skewed because I'm so focused on this one little narrow thread. And what I found is that there is a richness and a part of the stories that I just find. Like, it really keeps me going. It keeps me going as far as Dickie, totally invested and involved in the research. So I have a question. What do you think the UFOs are? So the pop culture thought is that they're,

then this certainly might be true or partially true, is that they're metal spaceships coming from some place in the galaxy or beyond galaxy or from another galaxy. They have arrived here through space travel, and they are essentially little scientists, studying humans, right? So we have an analogy, like I lived right next to Yellowstone. I knew grizzly bear researchers who would go into the mountains of Yellowstone in a helicopter

and they would dart a grizzly bear and then they would weigh it and do medical exams on it and study it and then they would tag it and then release the bear into the wild and they would study that bear in the movements with the tags until you really look at the data. Because what happens is the stories that emerge are much strange. danger than that that then simply metal spaceships from another planet this why would someone have a spiritual awakening after interacting with scientists from another planet so so i so you asked what what i think the UFO is i i say that the UFO parallels lots of other mythologies throughout history one of one in which i'm not there's a lot of research on this is ancient celtic

fairy mythology the modern UFO lore very consistently there's all kinds of issues where like um um just how they interact with people so the fairies the fairies lived in the forest and that would be the lore the UFOs seem to live in the stars and but the the lore is similar how the fairies would interact with net goes um and i would also say even back to like almost greek and that type of mythology seems to mimic the UFO mythology in the sense that that people are interacting with some other energy. It's not from here. It's some other realm, like the realm of gods or the realm of, you know, of the nature spirits or the folklore spirits. So that's been a very fruitful avenue of research to look at it that way.

It's hard to know what's truly going on. Yeah, I was going to say I wouldn't be shocked if the bear didn't have a spiritual, you know, awakening after being tagged and probably terrified or angry and then falling asleep and then waking up and realizing being a little groggy and walking off. I mean, so, you know. So he traumatized that way, you know, so the little traumatized. Like, what just happened? Um, it's probably a lot more wary of humans after that. Um, but yeah, I, you know, I get a ton of people. I've done a few of these videos. So where I've interviewed, um, guys that have different, you know, takes, uh, either, either they've had, um, you know, encounters or they've done a lot of research. And, you know, in the comment section, I, I tend to get this a lot.

which is that they're that aliens or UFOs are I don't know there's some kind they always not always but many of them have some kind of connection with like fallen demons or fallen angels or their demons there's a whole kind of connection there and which odd to me because I grew up thinking of course you know the the you know the you know the the coming from another solar system to monitor humans or interact with humans somehow or but then the more I've learned about just you know the distances and one it's like why would they be interested in us and two to be able to travel that far like we don't really have anything to offer them or you know you've I've got buddies that I have a buddies that

thinks that you know he's got the whole conspiracy theory where they're helping to run the world with the it's like why you know like stop oh i've heard all these stories yeah well i'm sure you've heard way more than me but you know what i always go back to is like even the angels and demons uh one it's kind of like how i feel about god it's you know like a cat doesn't understand what's really going on he understands that there's this this thing this human that feeds him and he lives in this house and he he comes and goes a little bit and he gets scratched but he has no real concept of how things work and we think we know how things work but the truth is we probably have a very limited understanding of what's

really happening I mean how you know how can we so I so I'm always curious to know like well what do you think so as insane as maybe the angels and the demons thing sound does it really it doesn't it's no more insane than traveling you know hundreds of billions of light years to come to this little rock circling this little tiny sun like that's all of these i just don't think we're capable of probably really understanding what's happening but i'm super curious about it even though i think if i think if you could if you could communicate with a cat and explained to him what's happening, he wouldn't be able to understand.

Just like if aliens came down and really explained it to us, I don't think we would be able to, I can't conceive of how large the galaxy is. Or so in many ways, like the galaxy is big, infinite in space, right? So, and I think if you talk to it, and the more we learn about it, the bigger it seems to get.

Every time we put a new telescope up in space, we're like blown away, but it's bigger than we thought. And the same thing is happening to the people who are working with electric microscopes. They're looking, looking, looking at the, you know, the structure of the atom and the structure of like the very tiny times. And that seems to be growing in an infinite way. And then the people who are doing psychic research are finding out that the potential of human psychic abilities is bigger, stranger, richer than we had ever expected. So all these things that we think we know, they're ever expanding.

I would, so yes, so I agree. So it's not just that the space is so big, but that we talk about advanced physicist. And they would, there's like a multiple, I can't explain it. So I'm not a physicist. But there's a, there's a, seems to be within physics, seems to be a recognized understanding that there are multiple dimensions. We are in this dimension, so we can't picture what another dimension is like, because it's beyond our physical, like, we're stuck here. We're like in this reality, but there seems to be multiple realities,

and that would answer some of where the UFOs are coming from. Are they simply coming from another reality that we don't understand? And that is certainly where the, let's say, the Greek gods lived in some other reality. they had some abilities that, you know, we don't have. This is mythology, you know, but I, and I would say that they, here's where I'm looking at this now. The owl, there's ancient owl mythology. Let me talk about just a little bit because it's, yeah. So, yeah, the owls all throughout the world, there's a consistent mythology.

The owl is a nightbird, and it can fly through the forest in complete darkness, right? So it can fly in the forest, in complete darkness. And that to ancient man must have seen magic, right? So we now, we think about evolution and they certainly, they have evolutionarily developed the ability to see, to have very sensitive eyes. So that's why they can fly in. But to ancient man, it must have seen magic. And we live in a world now where we have an electric light bulb,

but in my great-grandfather's life, there were no light bulbs. So it's very, it's very new in the human experience that, the knight has lost its mystique. So the owl was a creature of the night, and it flew into the forest, and in all its focus, that becomes a metaphor for flying to the land of the ancestors, for flying to the land of the dead,

for flying to that other realm. And then the owl would come back with a message. That would be the follow-up myth. So the owls in a lot of lore, all throughout the world, is a messenger from that other realm, that realm of the night. So that shadow realm, that dream realm, would, is now, that's the ancient mythology. Turn the clock forward, present day.

We have Harry Potter, who has an owl that delivers the mail, right? This is the most popular series of books in the history of publication. It has an owl that delivers the mail. as an owl that is a messenger. It's perfect. So that is not ancient mythology. It's right now in our popular culture. The owl delivers the mail for Harry Potter.

It's perfect. It's right there. So I would, I am looking at, and I get a little, I get like on my high horse sometimes, but like, so I'm seeing the owl, the ancient mythology of the owl as mimicking the modern mythology of the UFO. Right? So we don't know what the UFO is.

any more than we know what the Greek gods, or any more than we know what the fairies are, or these other folklore or these other mythologies, we can speculate gas, we can scientific terms about them because they seem to be in metal spaceships and things like that, but we, who know, maybe someone doing secret research

that knows a whole lot more than I do, but from where I'm sitting, it's a genuine mystery. And then the ancient myth of the owl is mimicking, mirroring the modern mythology of the UFO. The UFOs are coming. People are being told all kinds of things by the UFO occupants. Some of it is pretty simple.

Clean up your act. Be very careful with nuclear power. Be very careful with nuclear bombs. Like, basically, they're painting a picture of mankind who has, is not using our technology responsibly. Like, we're going to cause pollution the planet. We're going to cause, we're, we're, eventually, we can do a lot of damage to the planet.

That's a, that's a, a message that keeps on coming through. But in a funny way, I mean, that was the message of half of the Twilight Zone episodes, too, right? So that's not, that's not like anything new or anything that we don't understand in here. But that's the message that's coming from those beings, if we're to trust, you know, what they're saying. Okay. So. And then, what do you think? Oh, go on.

So what, what do you think the UFOs are? I think so, and I'm going to, this is, I'm going to talk a little poetically, let's say, I would say the UFOs are a modern manifestation of the myth that we need right now, right? So the old myth, you would have had a myth, you know, you would have been one lay in, you would be in one Indian tribe, and then over the hill and the other valley would be another Indian tribe. So each tribe would have their own myth, and they would be their own community. and those myths are no longer serving mankind anymore because we no longer live in a tribal society where one tribe lives in one valley in one. We live in a global society.

So we are being presented with a global myth. We are being presented not with fairies forest or wolves, you know, speaking to the elders around the campfire. We are being presented with a, a visitor from what seems to be outside of life. So we are being presented with a global mythology. It is like it's not it's not oh go on. Like a collective consciousness that

we're all kind of plugged into kind of like a young young young thing. I'm not so you're saying it's not a real thing oh it's well certainly burn marks in the ground there's trace evidence there's some physicality to these UFOs. So this is very murky because there's a thing. There's a real phenomenon.

But the mythology of we are confronting the other. And it's a, it's a, it's a global mythology or we are interacting with something beyond our earth plane, if that makes sense. So we can no longer look at ourselves

as just, you know, with Americans or Russians or Chinese or however you want to put it, we have to look at ourselves. in the reflection of the UFO thing as citizens of the earth rather than citizens of a of a vibrant nation. So you use a question like what's how does, what's the purpose of the mythology, I guess is what you're asking.

I'm not sure now I'm, but and then I'm very much open to sort of a Youngie and collective idea too. Carl Young wrote a book. It's a thin little book. It's called Flying Saucers, a myth in the skies. Really?

I did not know that. Yeah. Yeah. He published it in the late 50s, yeah. Very early on in the UFO lore. And he takes it very, he writes beautifully on exactly that, the dilemma of something leaving physical trace evidence at the same time, something presenting itself in such mythological context. Okay. Myth made.

Yeah. Yeah. So Carl Young wrote a book, Flying Saucers, a Myth Made in the Sky. And it's a tough read. Wow. I always said a dense read. All right. So I have a question.

What do you make of like these, the Navy pilots and, you know, the congressional hearings. Were they hearings? Are they correct? It's funny, they weren't actually Congress.

So they weren't congressional hearings. There's some that have been in Congress and there's some that have been outside of Congress in just like a, just like a symposium of sorts. So the most recent one with the fellow grush was not in I don't think that was in in the Congress building I think that was in another building so it's the so it's a little murky some of them are congressional so yes what do I think of those like I'm yeah I feel like I'm

I feel like I'm so immersed in the mystical side of it and then I'm certain Navy pilots are seeing things flying around the sky absolutely that's there's a there was a book of 1990s called above top secret and I think the Timothy good was was the author and it was basically that that tick-tack report kind of story just military stories by the hundreds in that book just a wealth of those stories so those stories have are out there they've been out there for 50 years and um so there's nothing really necessarily new about the tick-tac report except for the fact that the navy has been so open about talking about it that's what's new so why they're why they're interested in why they're talking about it now i can't

answer somebody gave him permission or you said okay you're allowed to talk about it or before you were not allowed to talk about it now you're allowed to talk about it what who made that decision and said it was okay to talk about it that's what's interesting to me but the um so i would love to talk to the navy pilots and i right so there's and i would love to ask them like has your religion changed? Have you had a spiritual awakening? I may say no, but I would want to ask those exact questions, those kinds of questions.

How has your life changed since the event? I mean, obviously, some of them have been on 60 minutes and they're more famous and they were on the front pages in the New York Times, so there's that, but I mean, how has your life changed? How has spirituality changed? Those are the questions I would ask.

And they may not answer consistent with the people. I would also ask if you had any out of all experiences. too. They may not have had any, but I would ask that. Yeah, I wonder, it's, I wonder. Yep. I mean, if the, if the government has, why not openly talk about it? I mean, I have my own theory, you know, as to what, what I think. I mean, I think that, you know, if these things have been going on and if they've been

looking in and consistently kind of denying it or putting a spin on it or, you know, know, I think that the culture of the 40s and 50s is vastly different than the culture we have now because, you know, when I grew up, they, well, when I grew up, you, when you grow up, too, we're about the, you're not that much older than me. you know they it was not it was it was it was a vastly different there was a vastly different um people looked at it vastly different you know you would be mocked you'd be mocked or ridiculed if you said that you had seen something or you'd been taken or you had you know whatever the case may be um you know even saying hey i i think i saw the back backyard in my backyard like that would have spread through high school and people would be saying he's crazy and so and now and and now listen when that when the

tick tack thing came out like there was it was like the government came out and said yeah this is true we caught these things we don't really know what they are for sure but we definitely have them on on radar on video and there's tons of there have been sightings for decades now and nothing nothing totally totally yeah crickets exactly

yeah I mean it's interesting there's a little YouTube videos in their little article now and again but wow everybody paid their mortgage everybody pay their but I think in the 1950s it may have been a different 50s 60s 70 I think there may have been

a vastly different reaction by society so in a way Okay, go ahead. Sorry. Oh, I'm writing UFO books. I'm talking about my own UFO sightings in the books. Like seeing five gray being in the backyard.

Right. Like I'm talking about it. I have had essentially zero negative feedback. Some people may be saying stuff behind my back. And then there's comments on YouTube, which I don't pay attention to those kind of things. But I have just the opposite. Or it feels like people are thanking me for talking so openly about these issues. and that is a huge difference.

And I think that's totally related to the advent of the internet and just the information moves around in a different way. And so, yeah, so it's been remarkable for me. You can't stop it anymore. And I also think, you know, dripping that into our, you know, into society over the course of 50 years, 60 years, you know, you've kind of acclimated everybody to the idea that there, you know, there are these beings that may possibly be among us or visiting us. And it's going to, and it's okay because

it's been 60, 60, 50, 60 years and nothing's really happened, you know, that nothing horrible has happened. And they may be here. And we don't know. They are, but they are here. And it's, it's going to be okay. And keep paying your car payment, you know. Yeah. So, you know, so I think I can, yeah, I could see how you would you could be concerned initially and so you might hide the government might hide it yeah and i if i was in the pentagon in like 1947 you know and like that you know the news of the roswell crash like arrived at the desk right and i was like the top brass i would like well let's shut this up i understand exactly why they didn't talk about it but that was getting on 80 years ago yeah so and you want to have the you want to have answers

like you they don't have answers you know if they probably have go ahead so you know what do they have is it is it do they have um you know do they simply have more file cabinets filled with more reports right the problem is you fill that you're getting the same report over and over again right you get the same report over and over again for 80 years very similar reports over and over again for 80 years what do you right what is it telling you well it tells you that there's definitely something there but yeah if you can't resolve it then what do you say so for me the answer would be studies a different aspect of it study the mystical side of it you know study the weird side of it you know that's what interests me you know the the so here let me

so here's this little story this woman contacts me she was pulling into her driveway she was on the phone and she pulls into her driveway and there's an owl in the driveway and it flies up into a tree

so she gets out in the car and she looks up at the tree and she calls her son out she says come on out come out let's look at the owl so the owl fly it touches her head and the little boy is like mom are you okay and she's like oh no it was so gentle so gentle and then she

a couple days later she goes hiking with a friend she calls it her metaphysical friend and they'd go hiking and there's a hiking tree on time and they get back and it's getting dark and it was so they arrived back

at the car it was getting dark and and as they get in parking lot this set of lights goes over the parking lot like this craft what she called like a structured craft went right over the parking lot

and then she said and everything in the the weird thing happened. Everything in the parking lot turned red. The cars turned red, the trees turned red, the sky turned red, the asphalt turned red. And that's something that very rarely gets reported in UFO reports, but I've heard that before, that everything will change to one color. I've heard it in green before, but I've never heard red.

So everything turned red. And then, so the questions I ask is, what was going on in the life leading up to the event and what changed after the event? And so the event would be, was the owl in a sense, because the first thing had happened was so what was happening leading up to the owl? She was all in the phone with my dad. And I was telling my dad, I'm going to donate my kidney. Tells it where she went to the, a little league baseball game.

Her son was playing Little League. And there was another mom in the neighborhood. And she talked to this woman. And the woman, she said, how you doing? She didn't really know the woman, just a neighbor. And the lady says, it's so good. I don't get a kidney, I'm going to die. And the woman says, I'll give you mine.

Just like that. Just like that. And I asked her, like, why do you say that? I don't know. I just said it. It felt right. I've never gone back on it. So the woman says, oh, you have to have, it's not that easy.

We have to be compatible. So I'll take the test. So take the test and the doctor got back to her later and said, is this your sister? And she says, no, no, it's not my sister. And so. he was talking on the phone with her father saying, I'm going to give my kidney away. She ended up giving a kidney to someone she didn't know very well.

Both of them are completely healthy. Both of them are doing great. So she saved someone's life in the context of a UFO and an owl, an owl that touched her head. So when I do this research, do you know what Reiki therapy is, Reiki healing? No. Oh, okay. Oh, interesting. Okay. So the people I talk with, there's like, so Reiki is a Japanese form of energy healing. So someone has a sore back. He would go to a Reiki therapist and you'd go to their office and they put their hands over your back and they wouldn't touch you. They would just send in Reiki means, I think it's Ray means life energy and then or life and then key means energy. So it's life energy. So it's life energy.

So you just, there's a, they would just put their hands over their back and then, and then ease the back pain or whatever it might be. And there's remarkable healing stories that are associated with this. So when I talk to people, I do, I talk to people on the phone all the time. I try to get back to everyone. I can't. But when I talk to people on the phone and I, I just wait for them to tell me. And I say, like, what are you doing for work?

And if they don't, and I say, oh, they'll say, a Reiki therapist, or they're getting what's called their Level 3 Reiki certification, or they're taking Reiki classes on to become a Reiki therapist, I would argue that half the people that I talk with, half, 50 percent, half the people who have had a UFO and owl experience are Reiki healers. That, I'll tell you, 50% of the normal population is not a reiki healer. That, to me, is a wild statistic. So the lady, her name is Laura, the woman who gave up her kidney.

I didn't have to ask if she was a reiki healer. Like, what form of, what more powerful healing can there be than giving your kidney away to save someone's life? So built into the, I'm not looking at the big totality of the UFO stuff. I'm not looking at the tech, I'm talking to Navy pilots, I don't get radar returns, I'm talking to people who have had UFO in all experiences co-joined. They are some sort of healing work. Not all of them, but I would say the majority of the people are doing healing work. That to me is fascinating.

So you said, why are they coming to Earth? Why are they healing? Right. Is to create healers. I mean, that's, that's, that's, certainly what the evidence is presenting to me, but again, I'm not looking at the big totality of the picture. I'm looking at that little sliver. People who have UFO and all experiences are doing healing work. Not 100%, but wow, enough that there's a recognizable pattern.

Yeah, I was going to say, or maybe that's just station, you know, of the contacts. Like maybe it's odd that they're those types of healers. I mean, there's different people do, you know, they do different things, different types of, you know, I guess alternative. of medicine or healing or it is odd that they're all like you said rakey therapist that's and if they're not right many but i i wonder if it's not just kind of like you said the most of these people or majority of these people are having some kind of a spiritual change in their life as a result of an interaction you know that's odd like that you know like obviously i agree i agree If it's an overwhelming, even if it's more than half, that's still, you know,

some people are just not going to change. But this is, I would love so, I'm just one person, right? I'm just one person. I would love to have like a, even a, I have thousands of stories on file. Right. Thousands. I can't get, it's all in me. No one else has looked at the files.

I'm just anecdotally kind of trying to see the patterns. So I would love to have a staff and, you know, really crush the number of these things. Right. So you talked about like how people are saying, oh, it's the devil, it's demonic, it's the fallen angels. I'm not finding that in my research. I'm finding something else. I'm finding something optimistic.

And again, I'm not looking at the totality of the big picture. I'm looking at people who have UFO experiences. I'm finding that those people are, the people are having these kind of powerful experiences. They are doing this healing work. They're overcoming challenges. Um, here, I'll tell you one more story. So a woman, uh, had, she had been having what would be UFO contact experiences.

Okay. She was, she was terrified. She was working with a, with a, uh, like a support group. And she was living on the west coast in, and, um, do take her dog out for walks. And it was pouring down rain and she took the dog out for a walk in the pouring rain. And she walked out on this dock. That was part of her walk. It's a big d-jetty that went out into the salt water.

And so she's walking with her dog. And she, she's like, what am I doing? Why am I walking in the rain? Why did I come out here in the rain? It's pouring down rain. I never would walk with the dog in the rain. She turns on, and as soon as she turns around, there's an owl standing on the dock, facing her.

She turns around this big owl facing her. The dog is super high-strung. The dog should chase the owl. dog sits down and just like it's as if it's like attentive to royalty so she stares it's a hole they look at each other the owl flies off shortly thereafter she had a pain in her arm she went to the doctor and she had cancer and she went through chemotherapy and she said I went right to the edge of death like I like I almost died and when I talked to her she said I've been cancer-free for 15 years, and I asked, what, what, how is your life changed?

She said, before, she, I, so I said, what do you think the owl meant? Owl meant, get ready. Your life is going to change. Something's, you're like, your life is going to get hard. It got terrible. She was the turd, but she survived. And I said, how, like, what, what's changed in the big picture? She said, before this. event, I was scared of my own shadow. After all this, I am afraid of nothing. So there's the all seems to be in there as this, it's like punctuating a chapter in her life, a moment in her life. Between I was afraid of my shadow to I fear nothing. So I have those kinds of stories that have that kind of myth power built into the stories. That is the, that's the consistent.

thread. So I'm, I'm, I'm hard as a researcher to, to keep pressing forward with this because the, because of the power of these stories, it just, that's the flavor and mood of the stories I'm getting, that both of these women, the woman who gave away kidney and then the woman who survived cancer. There are these beautiful, say, parables, these beautiful, interwoven into these. So I was going to say I interviewed a guy who was like in his house and, you know, when you just said she was like, why am I outside in the rain where he was just in his house and suddenly he felt, you know, he didn't hear it, but he felt someone basically tell him

go outside. And so he just walked outside like either the backyard or front yard, I forget it. But he walked outside and he said, and there was a, you know, there was a, a UFO just, you know, hovering there. Theory. I mean, you know, just same thing, you know, time, he missed a bunch of time and, and then ran got his family and they came out and they actually saw it also and then it just disappeared.

Um, and that's happened a few times to him. He actually has, um, has had multiple experiences. But your, your research is, you know, you're not hearing about the angels and, and demons part of it because you're not reading the comment section because that's a cesspool and that's where those that's where I'm hearing that's where I'm hearing those guys you know you're actually talking to people I'm saying that's where I'm getting it because in the comment section people are you know and I think that there's that that's like that's a like if you're devout Christian that that would be a a an avenue to

to contemplate, but I think if you really studied the stories, that would fall apart, because it doesn't really match the lore of the biblical demon, let's say. Right. People are certainly traumatized by these experiences. They produce a lot of fear, and they produce a lot of confusion in people's lives. And people are angry. Some people are angry. But surprisingly, the stories that I'm getting, as I say, are just owls and UFOs go

joined they're much more buoyant and heartening well like I said you know like said earlier you know people are people are desperate to make it make sense to them and and have a clear understanding and there just may not be a clear understanding because of just you know who we are you know our ability to understand so you know but so that they're doing the best they can, you know. And I've come to see the owls as like an alarm clock. Like they're here to wake us up. You know, what that might mean, wake us up to what is kind of an open-ended question. But, you know, owls as alarm clock. Yeah. When you spoke with Danny, you were talking about how someone had driven by an owl that was huge. It was like four feet tall, four and a half

feet tall. And that I guess at some point they were saying it was like you will perceive us as an owl or something along those lines. So it was a way to implant a cover of some in some way. And that would be what's called the screen memory. And those stories are very common where people will see, let's say, the four-foot-tall owl on the side of the road is a very common thing for people to report. There's no such thing as a four-foot-tall owl. Too big. They're not that big.

They will never be that big. So that aspect is oftentimes when people are then hypnotized and they go through hypnotic regression and there's lots to, you know, so I've, there's reasons to be caution about taking hypnotic regression at face value. But what is consistently being reported is the hypnotherapist will say, describe what the owl looks like. and the witness will say, well, they're bald, they've got big black eyes, they're wearing tight-fitting little space suit, they're skinny, they're about four-foot tall, and I don't think that's an owl. So they're describing a alien being on the side of the road, but what they are perceiving in the moment is an owl.

Now, you hear that story 500 times, and you get it. Like that's, that's something that seems to be taking place with a, with remarkable consistency. So, um, what that, what the purpose. And then also, it's not just owls, it's owls and deer. Those are the top two. So people are odd deer stories. And then no therapist will say, well, describe the deer. And then they'll describe a quintessential gray alien.

So yeah, it gets, so I have tried to, I certainly look at those stories. I certainly get a lot of those stories. But I'm much more engaged and interested in the accounts of real owls showing up at the time of UFO contact. Okay. Do you have anything else? What else are you? I mean, I can tell stories for, I mean, I got lots of stories. But yeah, this is a genuine tree.

So don't, don't for answers. I can only dance around and speculate what might may or may not. it might or may not mean but it's a we're we are confronted with a genuine mystery and um and for me like it feels like it feels like there's magic in the universe given how how deeply i've immersed myself in this research i there's there's something magical about the the way these are expressing themselves there these are modern myths in the making how i'm seeing it how many books have you written about? Well, three nonfiction books on owls. This is the one. If anyone's going to start, this would be the one to start with. This is the messengers. It's my first book on

owls, and it's about 400 pages. It's the thickest one. And it reads pretty quickly. And that's where I make the argument that owls and UFOs are connected. And then I just got flooded with so much more information. There was, I've got people. So if I, you take all three of my nonfiction books and stack them one on top of each other, it's a thousand pages. of UFOs and owls and people say are you going to write another book on youophos and owls i'm like if i can't say it in a thousand pages like right i don't need to write like if i can't make my case in a thousand pages so and then i did do a recently i did a uh a fiction book now just this is it's just it's on my desk here this is the fiction book it's called the unseen and what that is is

is kind of i've said i use the term flavor and mood these owl and UFO stories have a flavor and mood and I kind of tried to write a mystery thriller kind of paranormal mystery thriller where the story it's and may like the the the the the weirdest stuff in that fiction book is based on real events that people have shared with me it's got a cowboy on the front it has a cowboy on the front yes it takes place it's it says yeah it takes place in the west and there's a guy with a cowboy yeah so I lived I lived in Idaho for a long time so I was kind of like in cowboy culture there. So it was something I know a lot about. And you're going to possibly start another YouTube channel at some point. I have a YouTube channel. I haven't done much with it lately. But I, but I did a

podcast for ages. There's about 300 hours of me doing podcasts online, either through my first podcast, which is called Hidden Experience, or my second post, which is called The Unseen, which is the same name is the book but um so the um and i found it very rewarding at the same time i i totally talked about this a little bit i can it's hard for me to multitask either i'm writing right putting all my energies into writing and if i try to write and do a podcast i do both poorly so i feel like you took your podcast much more serious than on my podcast because oh i was i was you know what it was for me I mean my my podcast this is my podcast like you're you're going to get a thumbnail and there's no editing we're not there's no music there's no it's going to be clipped clip maybe an intro a thumbnail we're putting it up I feel like you took yours much more seriously I was doing audio only so I wasn't doing video too so video is great yeah you have to do video great you have to do video too Then you just pull off the audio and throw it up on stream yard and it's another avenue for people to listen to.

I have a time to listen on a stream yard. Yeah. I'm sorry, what am I saying? I'm sorry, Spotify. I meant Spotify. Yeah. Yeah. And I, my, it was funny because I was doing it in 2009, which was, doesn't seem like that long ago, but that was very early on in the podcasting realm.

so yes like YouTube is way bigger now right like it's just got to be oh yeah millions and another 100 million people watching YouTube at this yeah and then the number of podcasts that are out there and this is before Apple podcasts and things like that so okay so someday I'll get back into it yeah you got to get back into it it it's fun I know and and and um But as I said, I'm going to, I might be the audiobook. So I'm going to read that aloud into the microphone and then edit that up and put it out as an audio book, the fiction book. All the book, audio books except for the fiction book, which hopefully not good, it will be very soon. Hey, I appreciate you guys watching the interview.

If you do me a favor and subscribe to the channel, hit notified of videos like this. Also, leave me a comment in the comment section and check the description. We're going to put a link to all of Mike's book. really appreciate you guys watching see you know this whole thing started for me again when i was and uh you know these experiences necessarily necessarily that they were alien right i don't know exactly what they were um but my early experiences happened when i was just a kid and like literally in my room and uh you know the the whole way it started was um what is kind of like jarring right because the first instant I noticed anything was I heard a voice like,

and it's not just like you hear a voice in your head like where there's a question about it. Like you feel through your entire body. And this is something we can call like a telepathic lock on. So I heard he can see us. And, you know, as I heard that, I saw this like almost what you can call a shadow entity. But it was it was almost scintillating. like it had a mild glow to it and and it collapsed into an orb. And I was absolutely frightened, you know,

because I'm maybe five or six years old when this is happening. I literally just, you know, put the covers over myself and I'm trying to hide. That happened maybe a dozen times when I was younger. So because of and other than that, I had spontaneous what people call out of body experiences. And, you know, back back then, I didn't associate the two together. They just seemed to be different experiences.

In retrospect, now looking back after I've been involved in the research for so many years, you know, there actually seems to all that, like all these experiences. So can I ask a question real quick? So when you're five or so old, like was there any interaction or contact other than them just saying he can see us? I heard. I heard it was, it's really hard to explain. I heard like it almost sounds like gibberish but you could it it interprets body somehow that's the only way I can say it you mentioned the movie the knowing yeah the knowing which was a great movie who whoever I don't think that whoever made that movie just like made that they either did really really intricate research or they hadn't experienced themselves because that the way they that whisper happens was exactly like I got chills when I saw that movie and that's the same kind of thing right like we we hear UFO aliens um but

and even in that movie the way it was represented you know they had a kind of depending to it where there are kind of like angelic entities but that's actually closer to the truth say that there aren't what people call extraterrestrial biological entities meaning like oh these kind of um like gray figures and the local beings that you see with the big heads and the big eyes um like that I I think, you know, I had not in that directly, but based on all the testimony and the reports out there, I do think that is something that's genuine. I, you know, I don't want to go too far off onto a tangent, but some people speculate that that's like an advanced organic AI, basically, and those entities are like, you know,

created or generated to fulfill, like, missions or whatever you want to call it. so um but an entity like that i had not ever seen um these entities look more like again um you know shadow beings or light beings whatever people want to call them and again the orb phenomenon is something that's really apparent um that's only being reported more frequently now it's it's been reported on it's been discussed but it's really a intricate part of the phenomenon but again going Going back, back then, I didn't necessarily associate UFO phenomenon because I would have experiences like that. Again, spontaneous out-of-body experiences where I'm just like laying down and about to go to bed and it feels like I'm sleeping or and all of a sudden like I'm looking down at myself and as soon as you you realize, holy shit, that's me, that's my myself, my body, whatever, you snap right back in and you and kind of wake up. that's how that happened for me at least but it was you know many years later i guess

when i was 20 years old in 2007 when i had a series of um UFO encounters that really you know you know pushed me into like no going back um because you know the early experiences led me to do uh you know inquiry and research so even from a young age i was reading books on UFOs and metaphysics. And, you know, at 18, I started doing meditation, kind of partially because of martial arts, but more so, you know, because I was like looking in the bookstore and I found books on meditation and stuff like that too. So I'd been meditating for two years by 2007.

And the 2007 wave of events for me that really, you know, thrust me into the, you know, thrust me into this world for keeps and you know kind of made it a mission for me to be involved if I can say it that way um it started off really weird uh and in a series of events that we would call like synchronicities and high strangeness and the reason important is because dr j allen hynick who was the official astronomer for the the u.s. air force for project blue book found that the the most genuine UFO close encounter that occurred had something what he called high strangeness. And it was, you know, high strangeness is basically a type of phenomenon or a series

and events that are just so, you know, so extreme or outlandish that there's, there's no other way to categorize it other than high strangeness. But this association with high strangeness in close encounters was so strong that he made this term to, you know, denote that this is something that, happened in a lot of close encounters. And, you know, along with Dr. Jalen Heineck was a lay, who's an important researcher. So, you know, these events I would consider high strangeness and started the, you know, there's kind of three events that really marked this for me, that pushed me into this.

And the first one, you know, I'm working an overnight shift. And, you know, one of my co-workers. in the morning before I left the shift for kind of conservative guy you know we talk about like you know work co-worker talk right and out of nowhere he said hey did you hear about the UFOs in Mexico and you know I found it really weird that he would even bring the subject up you because at that point I you know I had the earlier experiences but I had an interest so for him to say that I'm kind of thinking like what you know where is this coming from from. But I brushed it off. I figured it's just a coincidence, right? I drive home and I go to

sleep. And I work an overnight shift. So this, you know, by the time I go to sleep, it's like maybe 8.30 in the morning or so. And in my dream, when I go to sleep, I have this insane, kind of like a you, you can call it a UFO dream, right? And in the dream, I'm driving down in my old neighborhood. and there's just this like an orange plasma UFO right over my car and it's a dream but I'm like freaking out

you know like it's pulsing with electricity and stuff and I can hear like the energetic charge and I can feel the sensations in my body and I'm freaking out in the dream I'm just like not thinking I'm just like I need to get the hell away from this thing and I'm trying to drive away

is this like a suburb i mean is this some yeah yes a suburb so like anybody could walk out of their house and see this thing like just not yeah but this remember this is a dream this is this right now uh is a is a dream oh okay sorry yeah yeah yeah well yeah so yeah because i know that at some point you get in your car well yeah that's this is this is what follows this is the crazy this is what's so crazy about it right is that you know so i i know i'll round that out for you so so i i'll round that out for you so So it's a dream, and I'm like driving, I'm trying to get away, and I snap out of the dream. And by the time I wake up, it's maybe like 3.30 in the afternoon, and it's either late spring or early summer. And somebody, you know, one of my family members walks on my house, and the first thing they say to me is, hey, did you hear about the UFOs in Mexico?

So I'm like, you know, and this is the high strangeness thing, right? Right. So I'm like, you know, screw this. And, you know, the reason I say high strangeness, because. Because there's no, I mean, there's no way in hell that you're going to have that series of events take place as a coincidence, right? You know, and I've spoken to different researchers about it. And, you know, I don't know whether that dream was something that the UFO phenomenon basically placed into me, right? Like, did they make me have the dream or was it some kind of cognitive event?

And I don't know the, yeah, I don't know, you know. and so when because when I you know the family member said that to me and I'm like okay screw this I need to just go and there's a Chinese place down the street for me that I used to always go to so I'm like I'm going to go get some Chinese food and just like relax you know because this is kind of bullshit right now um so I get in my car and it's again it's 3.30 in the afternoon maybe it's broad daylight and I start driving and within a few hundred feet of me driving I you know I'm looking you know ahead of me right and right in the sky sent right dead center in the sky there's just a fireball there and in my mind I think holy shit that's a UFO and as soon as I think that because it was it was stationary as soon as I think that it starts to move and I like I'm freaking out at this point right and it's it's like the the fireball in the sky is like a amazing, right? But really did it for me. The whole, what really hit me so hard was that the series of events that led to it.

Because the whole thing is the event at this point. It wasn't just, I'm driving and I see this fireball. I had somebody who oddly out of character said something to me about a UFO in the morning, UFOs in Mexico. I had this crazy dream. And then as soon as I wake up, this family member says something to me. The same thing about this guy said. And then, and then I have this daytime sighting of a fire.

So the whole thing is what really hit me like a ton of bricks. I think that led to it occurring was almost more insane than having the daytime siding itself. You know, it's like, how do you weigh that out? So I was, you know, I tried to chase the fireball, you know, was moving, just moving across sky, gliding across silently. I you know it eventually got out of my site I wasn't able to to keep up with it it didn't like zoom on anything fantastic but again it's just a fireball maybe the size of a

dime or a little smaller floating through the sky I mean it looked you know at arm's length it looked that big I don't know how how far away it was necessarily maybe a few thousand feet but it was still incredible and you know after that event I was really impactful event so I at that point I was even more kind of you know driven to look into UFOs as a more you know as a serious thing because at this point I'm being interacted with right I didn't ask for this to happen the earlier ones either and again like I said the earlier ones even at this point I recall those experiences but I'm not necessarily necessarily tying it to UFO at that point so you know skip ahead maybe two to three months

you know I don't know the exact time frame but it was it was about two to three months I ended up having this this crazy you know it's not an NDE because I didn't but it's something I call you know a trauma induced out-of-body experience So I got into this, um, this car accident and, uh, during, you know, when an accident happened, all of a sudden that, you know, I'm driving and the next thing I know, the accident happens. And I'm, I'm like face to face, you know, in, uh, with this, like a light being, right, entity of light. And how did the, how did the accident happen and like, when, what, when was it?

it and how did it happen? So I was listening to your interview when I was actually painting. So that's why I think I feel like I must have water something. That's why I felt like I thought you had come home from work, gone to sleep, couldn't sleep, went to leave or went to drive around to go to sleep and that's when you had the accident. But I guess I missed something. But so what I'm wondering now is when you had the accident, was it in the middle the night were you in this this was actually in the daytime this is because my was insane i'm working overnights and i think at that point i'm working like seven days a week and so i fell asleep when i was driving basically oh okay okay and and uh this was in daylight this was but it was similar yeah

i was it was in the morning kind of like not quite not quite noon um but i fell asleep when i was driving and you know i didn't realize until afterwards that upside down and and basically into a building is this is this and this is in the middle of a like a populated area it's like a suburb yeah okay so the and the crazy thing happened and i didn't realize this really i didn't really think about this until years later but this happened exactly like to the t exactly where i saw the fireball um citing craft whatever you want to call it um and again i for whatever reason i didn't put two to two together but literally to the t the exact so you know again when the crash occurs i guess i have maybe you can say i have a lapse in

consciousness right i don't know but that occurs and all of a sudden i'm face to face with this like a light being right um and for for whatever reason the first impression that i got when i was that it was not separate from myself um and again that's an impression that's the feeling i had of like in that and uh i heard this entire like crystalline orchestra it's like you know it you know i guess like if you imagine being in heaven or something and hearing that like kind of angelic music that's that's what it felt like right and um and i'm mind you i'm not like religious in in a sense like you can say i'm spiritual because i'm doing meditation and i'm into those kind of subjects metaphysics or whatever um but not religious and i i heard you know a voice say uh you know

god is all there is ever was and ever will be and um you know i for whatever whatever that means and all of a sudden it flip i you know it flipped different uh thing right where i saw describe this as much as I want and never comes out exactly how I perceive it I guess is that I saw the past, the present and the future kind of as like one thing and then right after that it flipped into me being above the scene of the accident

and I'm looking down at the accident and I can see my car I see an ambulance, I see the building I see the street, I see the whole thing and what's crazy is that my point of view of where I'm looking down was exactly where the fireball was when I had seen it. And again, that's not something I didn't put two and two together. Like, that's not something that automatically, I didn't realize that for a year until I was telling a researcher, a doctor, one of the stories years later.

So that event, like, was extremely profound for me because, you know, know, even though it wasn't like a true near-death experience, I felt like I had, you know, escaped the cause of death, basically. I was like, wow, like I could have died if I did, you know, if I somehow had hit my head the wrong way or whatever. So I, after that occurred, you know, I was just like so grateful even just to be alive at that point and you know add on to it the the the experience right um that i had was um you know i guess transformed of in a way because when you when you have snap back into like it let you know

you're you're looking down in yourself did you start yeah yeah yeah so i when i wake up i'm in like the ambulance basically and i'm like holy shit i'm alive but even when i was looking down at the accident one of the craziest thing was like i was conscious right like in my awareness i have been in my body but i was aware and it's not like i wasn't being like pulled through the experience where like i wasn't conscious of what's going on because i'm looking down at the accident and i'm like i'm thinking so this is it huh like i i'm thinking that i'm dead and i was just told i was totally cool with it. Like I felt totally at peace. Just like

there wasn't like a regret or a care like oh no. Totally fine. It was like the most blest out thing equanimity. I just felt perfectly at peace. Right. And then I snapped into my body and I'm like, oh my God.

Like holy shit, I'm alive. And I'm in the ambulance. So you know, the next day you know, because they wanted to do MRIs and scans and whatever make sure I didn't have like internal bleeding and all that so day I get home and I'm just like super grateful to be alive right and I'm still like I feel different physically right like and I hate to use words like this because it's going to rub people the wrong way but like

energetically right I literally feel different like a different frequency in my body if you can say that right um but i'm just super grateful to be alive and i'm like just cleaning my room whatever and this ends up being the next day and night most chain of events occurs and as i'm just in my room or whatever i hear like i hear i don't even it's not even just like i hear a voice just like when i was a kid i hear a voice but i can feel it through my entire body uh and it says come outside but the crazy thing about that is we'll call it a download right or again we can say it's a telepathic lock on because as soon as i hear the voice it's not just that i hear or i feel the voice i got like this whole uh like a package of like information if you want to call it that

but what i what i mean by that is there's like all these sensations i get like this kundalini experience through my body um and and i see two entities again this is in my mind that i see it like right my eyes are open and i can even see everything around me like normal but there's like an overlay um of these two entities and you know i hate to say this because it's it's in the ufo literature and it sounds hokey or whatever but i you know i saw i saw you know, a male and a female and these kind of like almost grayish blue space suits, you know, blonde hair, blue eyes, what people call Nordics or tall whites or whatever. And I heard that, but I also got these kind of, I guess you can say messages that they're related to us

and they want people to know that they're here and all this, you know. And I have to, you know, kind of preface this by saying, I don't know if, I don't know if that's true, right? if they're related to us and they're here to help us or I don't know if my mind made that up to try to cope with whatever was going on I don't know if they actually literally communicated that and I don't know if they actually actually literally catered that and that means it's true right it could still be a deception of some kind or you know in my own sense it felt as genuine as ever

and while this is going on I'm not even questioning it i'm taking it literally um so again it said come outside right and as soon as i heard that instantly like there's no second thing just ran outside and i get out i get out the door and i get there's like tree coverage over there over when you walk out the door so i get past that and i look up and i you know even before i'm looking up i hear this this of this uh you know what i end up seeing is like a a a craft that's almost like a hexagon And it's like, voom, boom, boom. And I can feel the pulsing when it's, when it's making that noise.

And I have this, again, this almost like a kundalini experience of energy and electricity throughout my entire. And it felt like my awareness was connected to their awareness, if I can say that. And like I was feeling the state of being that therein I could feel. And it was the super elating. like I felt you know super blissful I guess if you if I can say that and again

this this craft must be like a hundred feet in the air and it's shaped like a like a hexagon almost like a like a dark metal if I can say that it wasn't it wasn't black like black matte blackout but it was like a very very dark gray and almost seamless

and there were like there was a perfectly square white enter and around it there were just lights going around like this like you know yellow blue purple red green the whole thing and i'm kind of it's above me kind of just gliding across and i'm trying to i'm going down into my driveway i get down to my driveway and i'm waiting it for a few seconds and then instantaneously you know while i'm looking at it It, you know, you can say dematerializes. It disappears. It appears about 1,000 feet away or 1,500 feet away over this man-made lake that's there.

And it just reappears there. And it's just, you know, slowly moving and it's got the lights moving around it. And once I'm looking at it over there, my focus is over there, I can see that there are two other crafts just like that. And, you know, about the same distance away. And they're all kind of moving around slowly in the sky. And at this point, I'm, I'm really thinking, like, am I hallucinating at this point? Like, did I hit my head so hard in that accent that I'm just imagining this? Because this is over the top.

This is over the top now. And I'm kind of freaking out. So I ran into my house. And, you know, two of my family members there, guys, they're here. I said, you got to come outside. And they say, why? I say, they're here. And they said, who's here?

I said, just come outside. So my two family members come outside. And they, they see these crafts just moving around with the, you know, the light spinning around and everything. And this is going on, you know, they're just like, you know, they're witnessing and they don't know what to make of it.

And, you know, so after maybe like 20 minutes or so of watching this, And while I'm watching this, like, I'm thinking in my head that the whole world knows that this is going on. I'm like, because this is, it's a suburb area, right? So I'm thinking that everybody's seeing this. Like, there's no question to my mind. And I'm thinking like the whole world's going to know about, you know, UFOs. And at that point, when I was terrestrial, but, you know, in retrospect now, after a lot of research and thinking, I don't, I don't necessarily that it's as simple and straightforward as that.

But I'm thinking that the next day that this is going to be like the whole world's going to know that, you know, these beings are here and everything. But, you know, the whole way that this event ended was by, you know, I hadn't paid attention to where the third one was. But there's two of them, two of these crafts left and the lights are spinning and everything and they're going towards each other. like this and as soon as i'm thinking like oh they're gonna they're gonna they're gonna they're gonna they're gonna make contact like this they just both vanished and the sky was empty and quiet and uh you know and that was that was the end of it right and i'm just uh i was amazed because i'm i'm still trying to take the whole thing in you know when it ended when it ended i'm i'm like holy shit like what what just happened you know

why did this happen and and you know that's what led me on the journey of creating engaging the phenomenon uh which is my YouTube and podcast I mean I made this have this all happened to 2007 but you know and being actively involved in the UFO research community and speaking to different researchers um is what led me to create engaging the phenomenon but I got the impression from this contact these kind these you know serious of contact experiences that, you know, people, the entities themselves, again, they communicated whether it was literally or as a deception or whether my mind somehow tried to create a reason for it to happen or something is that I got the impression that, you know, the intelligence

wanted people to know that they were here. And again, you know, they said they were related to us. I don't know if that's true. But I, I, you know, wanted people to know that this was all real because now I had these experiences and I know for a fact that this is something that's genuine. So I felt compelled to get involved in the research community publicly at that point and to share information. But I also realize that I can't like I can't just tell somebody about this. experience, right? Like, I can tell somebody, but it's not going to have the impact, you know, you're not, it's not, you're not going to have that switch go off in your head unless you have this kind of experience, right? Like even if, um, you're convinced UFOs are real, you know, having a direct experience like that is going to is going to just, it's going to change you, right? It's going to, it's going to transform your worldview. A, you see yourself the way you look at the universe. Because all, you know, all of a sudden, within. a few have to reconsider everything that you thought you knew was true and you're like holy shit if this if this is true you know what what else did i get what else is true that that i'm not quite sure about right um so it has that kind of like paradigm shift and it opens your awareness up to so well isn't this is also like the first time that was the first time that you actually you know you you know it's not in your head like your family members came out and saw

it. So it's like, okay, this isn't just me. I actually have someone that, so you guys are seeing this. Yes. Okay, good. physical yeah it's a physical crafts like right you know um i mean the fireball convinced me right but this again this was just on another level um for several different reasons again because i had the telepathic lock on thing but again i this is my family out and see this and it wasn't just like with the fireball was like a minute kind of looking at it and it's out of my way this is going on 20 minutes and i'm you know and we're a physical craft with the hum and everything um So at that point, I started really active, like very dedicating myself, almost like a life mission to research and, and trying to share information. It was at that point that I found CE5 or close encounters of the fifth kind, which, you know, for people to understand, you know, there's a close encounter scale, you know, close of the first, second and third kind, which were created by Dr. J. Allen Heineck, as a way.

to categorize and classify close encounters when he was part of Project Blue Book. So encounter of the first kind is seeing a craft, you know, within 500 feet, it says, but really a close encounter of the first kinds, like you see a craft close enough to determine it's an actual UFO, basically. A close encounter of the second kind is that a UFO leaves some kind of trace, right, whether it's, you know, like a radiation trace, it's tracked on radar, it's recorded on video or picture somehow, you know, there's some kind of trace that you can attribute to the UFO. And then the closer encounter of the third kind is if you have like a, if you see an entity, right, if you see an occupant of a UFO, like in the movie, Close Encounters of the Third Kind, that was done by Stephen Spielberg. that you know that's close encounter the third kind a close encounter of the fourth kind which which dr jalen heinick did not create somebody added to the scale is when somebody has an on-board experience or an abduction experience and then uh dr stephen greer created the term of the fifth kind and there are different levels to it but more commonly it's known as a human initiated contact where you intentionally go out to do a you know to have

an encounter you invite the encounter to happen and and one occurs um and there's there's two there's two degrees of that i say because if somebody is just watching a you know they're they're out whatever and they're looking at the sky or or whatever it is and they see a UFO and it's just moving along they just randomly see and they think to it like or like oh my god i wish it would come closer and all of a sudden the UFO stops and starts to come closer it seems that there's some kind of telepathic connection or or mental connection whatever um that's that's the CE5 of the second degree um you know according to dr stephen greer's category but of the of the fifth kind first degree is when you go out and you do what's called the CE5 protocols or you know you go out

and you intentionally invite a UFO encounter and one appears that's a close encounter of the fifth kind first degree that's when people say CE5 that's more most generally what they're talking about and Dr. Stephen Greer created protocols to have that kind of encounter but I want to preface that a little by saying you know I found Dr. Stephen Greer because I'm crazy doing research at this point like all you know all my free time I'm doing I'm doing like research meditation basically and I see this press conference on YouTube and it's

this random doctor right and a bunch of military witnesses talking you know in Washington D.C. at the National Press Club about their firsthand encounter while serving in the government with UFOs or UFO related information or the UFO coverup. So I bet there's about 12

witnesses, and they're all sharing their testimony, highly credible people with credentials that could be vetted, you know, sharing their testimony in Washington, D.C., about their firsthand knowledge of UFOs and the UFO cover-up. And, you know, what was weird to me is just like the whole thing that was hosted by this kind of random doctor. There's all this military people, and I'm thinking, who the hell is this doctor, right? Why is you a doctor hosting this event with all these military people? like why is it not like a colonel or general or something like that guy and i start looking into all his

work and that's when i found c e5 because he i know where he's talking about contact and what struck me when i'm watching his video is that the way he's describing contact and how it occurs was exactly how i had experienced it and there are there are just like small subtle details that he's explaining that you you couldn't just make up right the only details were if you experienced it from yourself you know so that's what struck me of that what he's talking about is authentic so okay i i started researching all his work i read his books and and i'm you know he has guided guided practices for what he calls the ce5 protocols and um you know just just to clarify too there are other groups who did similar things and in earlier years but

This is what I came across first. And so I started doing the CE5 protocols, and I got responses, right? It was working. It wasn't like the experiences that I had when it was just kind of like they spontaneously happened to me. It wasn't on that level of, you know, impact, I guess you want to say, or it wasn't as crazy or dramatic. But sure enough, if you go out, you do the protocols, which, you know, to do a quick, review of what's known as the CE5 protocols is you basically do some kind of meditation where you're going to get in a calm and tranquil state and then you used what's called

remote viewing you know which in remote viewing look up the the CIA's program project Stargate and and how the U.S. Department of Defense both studied and utilized remote viewing which is basically being able to use your consciousness to see a distant time or or space right and the government was using this to gain intelligence and they got some pretty serious hits when they did it like meaning they were able to acquire certain information that could have not otherwise been known and that project for 22 years um but anyways so you're you're doing meditation and and what people you know you can call remote viewing if you don't believe you can remote view you can do like an uh kind of visual of, you know, seeing some kind of UFO or an ET craft as Dr. Greer would say in deep space or around the earth or wherever, and you're using kind of like a visualization or remote viewing vector to draw them back to your location in a seamless sequence. And that's what he calls coherent thought sequencing, which is part of the C5 protocol.

And, you know, sure enough, if you practice anything enough, you're going to get good at it. And it becomes more automatic. You don't have to sit there and intentionally becomes less mechanical. So when you get pretty good at the process eventually over time. And, you know, again, you do it enough times. You're, it's like, you know, thrown at a target a thousand times. Eventually, you're going to hit the bull's eye. So I was doing, I was doing this on, you know, a.

very regular basis, probably more than I should have because I was so impacted by the other encounters. And I was also thinking, like, why didn't I think of that, right? Like, it's so, like, if I was having these encounters and having this kind of direct mental or telepathic connection, like, why wouldn't I think to, sure enough, I got pretty good at it and I was able to have regular responses, right, which could vary in all different types of ways. Some kind of could be more dramatic or some can just see you see a light in the sky that will stop and then move in another direction and or flashes of lights or you know a more kind of extreme but elusive cases if you have like an orb come down into your yard or the location you're at

and for people who want a small example of this there was just a history channel episode of beyond skinwalker where they go over the crisp blood showcase that's a case that has been investigated by NASA and the CIA and the DoD and they were highly interested in his case and he had it's so because of that it's been documented fairly well where you have somebody from CIA on property or somebody from the army intelligence on property and even they're baffled by some of the anomalies that are going on right and you know so the so the people understand you know UFO encounters or you know encounters with now what they call it UAP unidentified anomalous phenomena it's not with the movies so you can be having different anomalous phenomena occur and it's not like

what you see in a movie right it's going to be stranger than that and more bizarre and harder to define right that's what makes it anomalous and you know a lot of people in the older UFO research field have a hard time coming to grips with that because they want to be seen as credible and scientific. So if you're not talking about a metal ship in the sky, they kind of get a little hesitant to discuss it, even if they know that's the core of the work and the research and what's being reported.

And nowadays, it's more accepted in the research community because it's been investigated by the Department of Defense in a program that was called OSAP. And which it later became atyp, which is what came out in the 2017 New York Times story. And it came out that, you know, Robert Bigelow was contracted and created this government program with the DOD and the DIA with all these really, really top level scientists like Kohn Kelleher, Dr. Ark Davis, Dr. Hal Putoff. And, you know, Dr. Howe putoff was involved with that Project Stargate remote viewing program. and Dr. Kit Green and Jacques Valet and all these other really highly regarded scientists. The remote, I remember seeing something on the remote viewing back in the late 80s, early 90s,

when during the Cold War, probably in the height of the Cold War where they were having people that were, that supposedly could do remote viewing and they were trying to have them place themselves in Soviet military facilities, right? Like it started at military. Absolutely. were military applications and you know where they wanted them that can you go into this building can you and they would come back and say that they'd looked in you know this room or that room or tried to go into a file cabinet but couldn't do it or well it was interesting because there was what was interesting was they would be able to describe buildings yeah and the inside the outside where they were when there was no way these people would know where these buildings right right and what they looked like or anything And there's an incident with, you know, a classified Soviet submarine where it's no way it should have been there. And, and, you know, these guys were able to track that. And it was accurate intelligence.

And when they're given the remote viewing of the coordinates, they're not telling him what to look for. Right. The coordinates are not a longitude latitude. It's just a number that represents a target. And so they didn't even, the viewer that got the hit didn't even know what the intelligence. community was looking for and sure enough he got this insane insanely accurate hit which was actionable intelligence they could now take this intelligent and act on it strategically right they didn't have the brand for 20 years because it didn't work right or they may not have been

right you know it may not have been perfect but if they could use it operationally that's why the program continued and i'm going to argue uh that it's still continued to this day and it's just been stovepiped and hidden away and compartmentalize and moved basically right i was going to say well listen if the if the department of you know if the department of defense can consistently lose hundreds of billions of dollars then they can be running other programs without anybody knowing you know off the books that nobody's in charge of so right well and that's how that's how the UFO programs have been kept what's called unacknowled special access programs or or waived special access programs or controlled access programs and, you know, the, you know, the big issue with the secrecy

is how is the secrecy been kept? And it's it's because people in charge haven't been in the loop, right? Congress and the Senate Intelligence Committee and the Senate, they haven't been kept up to date on this. They're blocked out of the programs. And that's why now, now we're seeing the public reaction from all this. You know, the other thing I was thinking about when you were talking was the descriptions like you're saying that when people are describing these events and you know they're you know whatever operation you know blue book or you know whatever whatever the people that are going out kind of collecting this information to do these investigations or kind of blowing off anybody that doesn't specifically state it was a craft it was clearly a craft

but the problem is is that you know they're looking at a like you said a very tangible you know this must be a craft. This must be like a ship. This must be, but the truth is, because that's just how they're conceptualizing. This is the only thing it could be. But the problem is if you could communicate with an ape what's happening and ask an ape how to describe what's happening in the zoo or in the jungle or with humans or they would never be able to describe it. They would describe it in a very rudimentary way to the best of their abilities because the truth is they don't really understand what that vehicle is they don't know what a bus is what a plane is they don't know where this would have to describe it in the limited you know with their limited capabilities so they're

going to get a very very rudimentary explanation of what's happening so for us to sit here and try and conceptualize what we're seeing like you know we have a limited vocabulary a limited understanding and we're seeing things and you know just like you said like you don't really know what you're seeing you don't really just like what I like is that you're like you know I'm not even saying that I necessarily even know are these really people that are beings from another dimension that are telling the truth are they really aliens are they really like I don't know here's what happened here's what I saw who knows did you ever see that movie um uh they they i'm not sure i'm gonna send you that listen it's is it they or they live

is it they live yeah i think there's the older one they live with roddy piper yes yes oh yeah a bee movie i love it what i loved was that it was everywhere they were yes you just didn't know you know they're they're supposed to be making a follow-up netflix series or something to that oh man what wow john carpenter yeah i hope so you know that was that was a great that was a great because he puts on those glasses and you realize like oh wow we're we're just like we're like clueless disney world and we have for for these beings well i'm glad you brought that up for several accounts is number one is like yeah like we we see a UFO and we think we think we're so smart and we know what it is right and like just as an example right so crash retrievals are a

big subject now david grush uh who is a highly credible former intelligence officer has come forward um you know he put in a vengeance community inspector general complaint about how this issue is being mishandled and and illegally hidden um from congress and oversight about crash retrievals um and that happened in the the the u. UFO or UAP hearing that happened a few weeks ago in Congress by the Oversight Committee. But let's just say all that's true, right? Let's say that we, you know, Roswell is real and there's a few other incidents that occurred that are that are real.

And we have these craft and we even have bodies. That doesn't mean we know where they're from. That does not mean we know where they're from or even what they are. Right. Or you could even conceptualize where they're from or what dimension or what plan. Right. Right. If something was another dimension, how would we even know? Right. I was going to say my argument is always, because I have a friend that, you know, I don't want to say he's, you know, an enthusiast. But the problem with him is that he believes in every conspiracy that has ever been like, I mean, from Bigfoot to the Lochness monster to JFK to, I mean, you name a conspiracy, he believes them all. So, but one of the things I always argue with him. him about is you know is that you know why would they be here like what do we have that they

don't need there's nothing like if you could travel billions of light years or be an interdimensional species there's nothing we offer well yeah and so there's this there's really great thinking on that right like number one is who says they're not from here right because as far and jacques valet wrote a portemogonia and um and there's been good there's a book called the cryptoterrestrials by mactan for people who are interested in looking at these kind of ideas is that you know number one let's just say they're from another dimension but they coexist in the same space right like they're from earth they're just shifted in a slightly different frequency or dimension and you know and either intentionally or unintentionally they're they're coming in and out somehow right maybe

their technology is just so advanced. They can interface with our dimension or frequency. And maybe there's certain spots on the earth where that wall between dimensions is thinner, like what people argue for like Skinwalker Ranch and Mount Shasta and those kind of, you know, Catalina Island and these other areas where there's high activity, right? Or, you know, there's, you know, Dr. Hal Putoff, who was, you know, helping with that remote viewing program, wrote a paper call. called the ultra terrestrials, which is a hypothesis for, you know, maybe the origin of the UFO

intelligence, what some of the possibilities are. And, you know, Mattani's cryptotterrestrials are saying, actually, you know, they could have been here the whole time. And they're just making us think that they're from space. So we're looking out there. And really, the whole time, you know, they have been coexisting with us for thousands of years in some kind of hidden way, whether they're using technology to mask themselves or their lotions because it's way it's you know richard dolan's coming out with a book called the usos right but all these navy encounters are by the water right yeah there's way more surface or coverage underneath the ocean than there is we know less about about the ocean than space you know right right and so if they have if they are so advanced in

technology and they're able to somehow hide in the water or maybe they're maybe they're a civilization that came here thousands of years ago that just have an outpost did you see the movie the abyss i did not i my friend watch it i got to get around to it yeah it's just comes out of nowhere when when you see the whole movie and at the end it's like wow like it like this is not i didn't see it coming yeah um so it it just turns out that they're you know the ocean bed is just that's where they're living there's massive massive cities down there that we just don't have any idea. And the only reason they even make contact is because we're kind of exploring the abyss.

And they're like, yeah, we better go ahead. Okay. We better go ahead and, you know, I didn't, I didn't read the book yet, but there's something called Chains of the Sea. And apparently it's kind of tied to that kind of idea. And, you know, one of the people who poured as a, you know, a theoretical was, was Lou Elizando, right? And that's the intelligence officer, that counterintelligence officer that came out and, you know, spoke to the New York Times and disclosed the program, ATIP, you know, advanced aerospace threat identification program.

So it's not just like UFO researchers are speculating. There's also people that are in the intelligence community that are also proposing some of these kind of ideas. you know when you said like kind of that they're well i was thinking about interstellar so i guess you didn't say this i was thinking about interstellar did you see that you saw interstellar right yeah yeah yeah that was great but what was great is that it was it was like this isn't an alien speed this is just us right you know communicating these are what fourth fifth dimension or uh us in the future living in different dimensions yeah and then i was actually talking to my buddy the other day because I'd watched a program on Mars and I'm always watching stuff. I was

playing stuff in the background and I just while I was listening to it they were about how in the future they said once we're you know an interplanetary species and humans are being born on Mars they said we'll become a two species race yeah where they said because think about it they said they won't need they'll be taller thinner less bone density less muscle mass you know so all of these things you know that they were saying that you know two thousand years in the future martians humans that's martian species will look so vastly different from us even though they're human right that they would they would essentially be aliens to us and if they were you know what happens what happens in the evolution of that species yeah right

super like that to me i felt like wow you know that kind of plays into the whole inter um interstellar the you know who knows yeah and there's and see these are the types of like lines of thinking we need to be exploring you know for the past like you know however many years most UFO researchers and and people that are just like watching UFO movies or you know alien movies or whatever you know that we almost had like an automatic assumption in our mind that oh it's aliens from another planet or from another place in space when really it could be something that we we can't even comprehend or think of or haven't thought of yet and you know what you're you know there's a guy named dr michael masters and i think he's uh i think he's an evolutionary biologist

uh professor and you know he has a theory called the extra tempestrials which is saying like they're basically time travelers and it's you know this could be us like a hundred thousand years in the future coming back and that would explain why they're somehow not the same as us but similar like the uh the chances and the odds that they would have a head two arms two legs but that is reported so so freely in the and all the literature of UFOs and contact literature and experience or literature and they want so they want such limited contact with us like you don't want to alter the future right right and also you know for you know people who report that there's DNA taken stuff you know things

things like that. Like, why would, you know, so those ideas I think are a good direction rather than just assuming that they're just extraterrestrials from outer space. I mean, however, I still think that the, what the ETI, the extraterrestrial or the ETH, the extraterrestrial hypothesis is, you know, we should still keep that on the table. And, you know, I have to say that, you know, based on encounters that I've had, You know, the ones that just happened to me and during CE5, because I've done the CE5 stuff, you know, hundreds and hundreds of times over thousands of hours and interactions or what have you, I don't think it's all the same intelligence that's responsible for what we call UFOs or UAP, unidentified anomalous phenomena. It seems that there's different things that are going on, you know, you know, people report different types of entities and, you know, even in stories of like crash retrieval.

and, you know, there's different types of crafts that are sometime reported. You know, sometimes there's a triangle, sometimes there's a disc, sometimes there's a cigar-shaped object, sometimes there's what we call a craft or v. or plasma. You know, there's all these different signatures. So I don't think that we're dealing with all of the same intelligence necessarily. Yeah, I have no problem with believe with, I'm totally okay with knowing or understanding the fact that I have no idea what's really happening.

You know, I can, I can look at my cell phone and a, and a vehicle and tell you, I don't know how it works. Right, right. Vehicles are magic. My cell phone is, it's a little box of magic, you know, so I have no, I have no, you know, I have no, you know, I have no problem admitting that, look, I don't know what's happening here, you know, like I don't, it doesn't, I don't have to know. Like, I understand this is beyond my understanding. Yeah. And I was just, I was thinking like, you know, you know, I will watch a program where they were saying, look, these things have been cited forever.

And then even if let's assume that the Roswell crash was real, you know. So there's a real craft that was, you know, captured. And maybe, and there's a few other instances. And maybe, maybe actual, you know, if their aliens have been actually captured. You know, why it's always like, why wouldn't they tell us? Well, in the 1950s, like, if you had told the civilization that there were aliens, most of civilization is still being held together by religious beliefs. Yeah. That would have fundamentally changed.

But if you slowly leak these things out and change the consciousness of, you know, the global consciousness, because it's not like it's just happening here, this is everywhere, we're slowly leaking it out. And then you get to a point where you say, okay, I think they're ready. Because let's face it, when those tapes came out from the, from the Navy, and that to me was the first 100% concrete evidence, do you know, that didn't do anything to me. Right. Like, I didn't change anything for me. Listen, after I heard that, I still went to church on Sunday with my wife. We still sat there. I still listened.

I still got in my car. I was like, that's crazy. Did you hear about the tapes? Did you watch that thing? Like, I'm talking to my buddies about it. We're like,

what's going on? What's going on? It didn't fundamentally make me decide I'm going to stop paying my bills. And I'm going to run around and become a maniac because there's no heaven. Like, I didn't, that wasn't what entered my mind. It was just like,

I had been so inundated by it over the last 40 or, you know, 50 years that I was like, I kind of, I kind of knew that anyway. Yeah. This is proof, but I kind of felt like it was probably pretty true anyway. Now I've got proof that it's true.

So I'm good with it. It didn't change anything. But I think in the 40s or 50s, I think it may have really done some damage. Yeah. And they did a study back in the late 50s, early 60s called the Brookings Institute study. And they determined that if they would have disclosed this kind of idea to the public at that time, that it would have been catastrophic. And, you know,

I happened when Orson Wells did the program saying that we were being... Yeah, 1938, right? Yeah. Right? Like, if you took that in a test run, people went nuts. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the way it was presented was kind of jarring too. It wasn't just like, hey, there's aliens or there's... It was like, we're being invaded. It was like, you know.

So go buy stuff in the... grocery store to live for the next you know apparently apparently i think back then toilet paper would have been disappeared yeah yeah but you know i so yeah i think you know there have been people so the cover up back then was probably again i don't want to say justified necessarily because you know we're democracy and you have to ultimately come to vote or or debate but may you know i could definitely see why back then where they're like we you know especially you get the cold war going on in a world war two like you don't want to upset things worse than they are like

we're not even sure that we're on a track where we're not going to nuke ourselves right right right mutually sure destruction and maybe they don't even really know what to say right and and maybe this is our to ensure that we're going to be ahead of the access you know ahead of you know for adversaries like this is our one guarantee that we will we will have technology that can outdo are our adversaries in a cold war, right? Right. Like you don't want to you don't want to telegraph that. So I mean, there's strategic purposes why, especially back then, why it would have been so safely guarded, you know, because, you know, we had atomic weapons and we know that the Soviets had, you know, atomic capabilities.

And so we, you know, that kind of, to some extent, lost our edge in that case. but you know this is a sure thing that we're going to have something that we can kind of glean off technologically and stay ahead um so do you think real sorry were you done with your thought um i was going to go somewhere else but by all means go ahead well i was going to say do you think that that that the united states like do you think that those got like the the the Navy were they not you know the Navy pilots where they you know they released the video and do you think that that was done purposely like hey let's go ahead and start start slipping this stuff into the record so by by some by somebody it was done intentionally I mean there's

a whole course of actions that took place to make sure that those tapes came out and they came out in a way that could not be contested and that was done by you know Christopher Mellon Louis Lozando and a few others understand so that you know let's just say that there's a there's a secrecy group right that has been covering this up right people call it majestic or majestic 12 you know whatever majority committee so if there was a group like that not everybody is on the same page there some of them are from different religious backgrounds moral backgrounds some of them are more power hungry some of they're more democratic in their thinking

and they're not all on the same page right and maybe some of them for decades have been trying to leak some of this information out in different ways that were safe for them to do so even though for them it was kind of risky but it wasn't like they're putting their lives in jeopardy necessarily but they're still getting information out

to the public little by little and giving them breadcums you know again amissed psychological operations against the American people. There are disinformation campaigns and there have been. And, you know, David Crush testified to that as well. But, you know, so maybe within that group that's keeping the secret, you know, some of them are in that group.

We're dying off and new people are coming in and taking on the roles. And enough of them have wanted transparency. that they've been able to make bolder moves and now now that the toothpaste they have gained that momentum they can go ahead and and put out as much as they they think it's safe to do it right like they're not put out a plan to how to create a UFO right but maybe maybe the greater portion of the secrecy group they they want people to know it's time for for a few reasons to for the people of the earth to know that we're not alone. There's another intelligence here and that we have this technology, right?

So I think kind of that's that there are these different, you know, like factions within this group. And that, you know, the group, the portion of it that wants transparency has gained enough momentum now to put out what they think is safe to put out without kind of putting national security at risk. right we're still able to put out general information to some extent you know and part of you know again this is speculation what some people in the intelligence community have said is that you know we have these crafts right from crash retrievals and we cannot make make sense of it right we can only make so much progress right like you had philip corso who wrote the book the after roswell and you know he was a colonel and allegedly he was in charge some of the technology and giving it to private industry, small pieces to different companies within the industry.

You know, his testimony goes back to the 1960s saying that they gave like one little fragment to this company, another fragment to this company. So, and they didn't tell them it's where it's from, right? They said, you know, this is foreign materials. Just try to figure out what it does, how we can recreate it or what we can do with it. and back so back starting at least in the 50s and 60s we started to reverse engineer some of the technology that we can make sense of but um and that's how we got like again this is highly controversial but uh you know they the testimony will say that's how we got uh you know fiber optics lasers and uh integrated circuits and like computer chips and stuff like that you know and how technology kind of boomed and blue took all off really at that time period. Not that we weren't working on

some stuff like that already a little bit, but it augmented greatly what we were doing and made us kind of create technology way faster than we would have. But, you know, other people argue, too, that there's some parts of the technology that

we just can't, we don't know what to do with it. We're just not, we're not great, because the programs are so compartmentalized and so secret, And they're so siloed that you can't have big teams of people working on it. And it's delaying our progress, right? And allegedly, there are other countries like Russia and China and maybe Korea or whoever

that have at least parts of this technology too. And maybe they have more people working on it. And if you start making breakthroughs in this kind of technology, you're going to far exceed other countries' capabilities. and that's a national security risk. So now you have the secrecy of UFOs creating a national security risk, right? Right.

So if you publicly disclose the general idea that we're not alone, there are advanced technologies and intelligences that have been interacting with humanity, and we have some of the three. You can create, you can begin to make pathways for programs that can more efficient,

and effectively work on the technology, get more brighter people and brighter minds on it working on it together so we can make those breakthroughs because we've hit a wall. Yeah, I can only imagine the secrecy that would be surrounding something like this. Like you're right, you can't have a large group of people working on it at the same time. Look what happened with the Manhattan Project. I mean, the Soviets, right. And we know that, yeah.

They're 20, they're 30 years behind us. Not when they've got people inside the Manhattan population. you know project giving them information so yeah so i'm sure that was a that was a hard obviously that was a hard lesson to learn you were 20 to 30 years ahead of your you know ahead of your um competition and five years later they're setting off or you know there or shoot two or three years later they're setting off their own nukes yeah the scientists um named dr davis you know he he you know there's a way you know every few years they look at the technology

they have a program that tries to reverse engineer the technology and if they can make sense of it at the time or if they found new sciences that can make more advances they do what they can and then once they hit a wall again they put it away for another few years until scientists come up more

and evolve more and we can revisit technology with the advances we made and try to make more out of it but that that was creating a problem because we're not moving with it fast enough and we have potential adversaries that could be making advances. But with that, you know,

I want to mention the Wilson Davis notes because it's, again, it's highly, you know, relevant to this conversation. And the testimony of David Grush, who was talking about UFO crash retrievals and UFO reverse engineering programs or what I think he called

you know exploitation programs and because you know you had the scientist dr eric davis who's actually ended up working for that you know because this this uh meeting he had with an admiral this guy admiral tom wilson uh you know it just goes back a few years because and it goes back to dr stephen greer believe it or not let me go back there real quick is so in 1997 Dr. Stephen Greer had a meeting in the Pentagon with Vice Admiral Tom Wilson, who at the time was a deputy DIA director. And he brought with him the astronaut Edgar Mitchell, who was a six-man-a-walk-on-the-moon,

and he brought with him a Navy commander who helped set the meeting up, Commander Will Miller. And Dr. Greer brought some documents with him and some information to Tom Will. in the Pentagon to say, hey, you know, we need your help. You have these secret programs, these youths, and here's a bunch of information, basically, on wind them. So, you know, allegedly, according to the story, Dr. Greer has this NRO document. And, you know, again, according to Dr. Greer's testimony, on the document,

there's like code names, code numbers, Tom Wilson, Admiral, Vice Admiral Tom Wilson, recognizes some of some of these programs because he's he's also joint at that point so that all this stuff is supposed to be under his command basically and he's like wait you know he notices he he recognizes a few of the program names and numbers so he goes ahead and he contacts them right and he speaks to uh somebody in the program and they say who you are admiral tom wilson you've read into these programs you don't have access. He's like, what are you talking about? I'm, I'm J2. I'm the deputy DIA director. I should be running these programs. You don't, you're not telling me that I don't

have access to them. You know, so he went through chain of command. He went to the special access, um, special access went through his channels and he's a big gorilla in at this point, right? Um, and he, again, like technically probably he should have had oversight over these programs if these programs were run the way they were supposed to, but because their clandestine and their black programs. He was basically blocked out. And, you know, people went on to vet this meeting. Like Dr. Edgar Mitchell, the astronaut, confirmed that the meeting happened.

And so, you know, and then, you know, we find out in 2002, Dr. Eric Davis, who ended up being part of that OSAP and ATIP program, he's a scientist, worked unclassified programs with the, Air Force. He worked with Bigelow Airspace and, you know, highly intelligent guy. He ends up getting a meeting with Tom Wilson in 2002 and, you know, to talk about these UFO programs. And, you know, Dr. Eric Davis took notes during this meeting he had with Tom Wilson and those notes leaked. And if you look up the Wilson Davis notes, you'll see the notes. And, you'll see the notes. you'll get you'll see the discussion that they had but basically you know what what vice admiral tom wilson discloses in that in the notes and in the meeting is that he found that the program he found like two or three programs and he was able to get a hold of um somebody from one of the programs and they invited him to come to come visit and speak with them and he ends up getting a program or a project manager the the the program security officer and a corporate lawyer.

So they tell them, like, you know, the reason that they, they had the meeting with him is because they wanted to know how he found out about the program because they had almost been uncovered and they almost were because of an audit several years before. And, you know, if they're found out, they're in, you know, they're in trouble because they're basically running a black program, which technically could be a least. legal, but it's also partially kind of I don't want to say

government audits. Yeah, so you know, they can lose their funding and they're, you know, they're doing something and they're not, that nobody's supposed to know about basically with black money. So they have the meeting with him and they,

and he's Tom Wilson admits like he thinks that it's being, UFO is being used as a cover, but it's really like, you know, Russian or some kind of other technology that we found. And the people in the program are like, no, no, no, no, no, this technology is not made by human hands. And they go on to, you know, the same thing, right? We have recovered off-world vehicles, and we work on it.

It's highly compartmentalized. You know, it's kind of been brought into the private sector. You can't FOIA. It's proprietary, right, if it's in a corporate setting. So the government kind of loses a little bit of access to it because, It's proprietary corporate information. They can legally say, you're not allowed about our company, right? It's proprietary.

So they end up telling him they have a full intact craft, right? And this is some of the stuff that David Grush has testified to Congress about, right? So that's a separate source that's saying the same thing about these crash retrieval programs that some of them have intact crafts. Um, so they tell Tom Wilson, you know, you're not on the bigot list, so you don't have access. We're not going to show anything with you or share anything with you, but as kind of like a courtesy and so you'll leave us alone, we'll tell you a little bit, you know, um, and, you know, they tell them that, you know, they have the off. They try to make sense of it every few years. And then again, they put it away. They shelve it and they, they revisit it and try to make the advancements.

but they they there are certain parts of the technology they they just can't crack and you know the significance of that that document right though the Wilson Davis memo which came out in 2019 I believe and you know some of me and my friends had it earlier than it was like really really out there in the public and at the time I was speaking to Dr. Eric Davis and I got a I got a quote from him for public use so I was speaking. with him and this is this is funny because the quote I got from him this was kind of like I think like two weeks before the notes broke out big way but Louis Lozando the intelligence officer that was part of the ATIP program ends up going on Fox with Tucker Carl and Tucker Carlson's

like do you do you believe that the U.S. government had materials or debris from UFOs and Lou Elizando is like I you know I have to be real. like what I say because of my security clearances and it looks like he's going to just back away but then he says uh but actually simply put yes so and Tucker Carlson's like this guy who is in charge of the UFO program for the for the government just said that he believes that the US government is in possession of crash retrievals basically and so I asked Eric Davis that night um I said what do you think of loose statement on Tucker Carlson.

And so Dr. Davis replies, you know, I think that, you know, paraphrase, Louis Alizando's statement on Tucker Carlson about the U.S. being in possession of, you know, UFOs and UFO technology. And first he said crashed UFO technology. And then he changed it and said, no, use this quote. crashed and landed UFO technology is 1,000% accurate. And then the notes break out, right, and is public. And everybody kind of like realizes that Dr. Eric Davis is a lot more involved in this than people assume that he was involved somehow, right, with getting access to crash retrieval information, right?

whether however he did that and whatever he was tasked with um so the notes come out and it was like a huge deal because you know again those notes took that meeting took place with dr eric davis and tom wilson in 2002 and now it's 17 years later 2019 the notes go public and people at that time realized that Stephen greer had the meeting Mitchell and will miller and tom wilson in 97 so now people are putting everything together and you basically in the gist of all that you have vice admiral tom wilson who was the deputy d ia director but by the time he had the meeting with dr eric davis he had been the director of the d ia and then when he had the meeting in 2002 with dr eric davis he had just retired and went to the private sector and they met in los vegas

set of EG and G and G parking lot and all that. So now when the notes come out, everybody puts all these different pieces together and you basically have Vice Admiral, you know, saying to Dr. Davis that we have recovered UFOs crashed and landed. So,

and now, you know, several years in the future now from 2019 into 2023, you have David Grush who was, you know, this guy was somebody who prepared, you know, presidential briefing.

not necessarily on UFOs maybe maybe I don't you know I don't know if we would ever know that but on other intelligence because he worked with the NRO the National Reconnaissance Office which is one of the most secret and highly classified government agencies and the NGA you know national spatial agency which is dealing with satellite images and we're going to track a UFO you know these are the two places you would do it because it's all the satellites right um and and because david grush ended up you know the reason he got involved and i would i would recommend everybody watch the the ufo hearing that it's on youtube if you if you type in you know two thousand twenty three UFO hearing it's going to come up or

oversight congress everywhere yeah the congress oversight committee you know david grush has has testified under oath before congress along with two names Navy pilots who were involved in, you know, one was involved with the Tick-Tac incident, Lieutenant Commander David Fraver involved in, you know, he testified to what he knows, especially about the Tick-Tac incident. And then you had Lieutenant Ryan Graves retired who was involved with a bunch of UFO or UAP incidents on the East Coast in 2014, 2015 with the other videos that came out. And they're like, holy shit, what is that, man?

they're like look at that on the ASA and there's a whole fleet of them you know so he was involved with those incidents but you know david grush you know part of how he came information about crash retrievals was that he was assigned to the uap task force so after those videos were released in 2017 actually in i think 2018 or 2009 we officially got the uap task force to say hey, wait a second, what's going on? And, you know, not so much of the public knows, but some researchers know, and the people that were involved in these programs,

know, like Dr. Eric Davis, who was involved in the UAP task force, at least unofficially, and these same people helped put off, and Lou Alizondo, you know, again, to whatever capacity, either officially or unofficially, are involved with the UAP task force in 2018, I believe, in onwards, to investigate what does the government know about UFOs?

What, you know, what happened to these incidents that are being reported that they said ATIP ended. And, you know, the government said, oh, ATIP ended in 2012. Loua Lozano says, no, it didn't because I was the director of ATIP until it ended. And when, you know, after he left, until he left. So, and he came out in 2017 to the New York Times. So just a month before he came to the New York Times, he had the director of ATIP, and that's 2017. So that ATIP, which never really ended, morphed into UAP Task Force, you know, just so people

have a contextual understanding of the timeline. So UAP Task Force was formed, and you had J. Stratton, who was also involved in ATIP and ASAP, I believe it becomes the director of UAP task force, and David Grush is assigned to the UAP task force to investigate as part of their investigation. So while David Grush is basically given orders to investigate it by the government unofficial capacity to investigate UFOs and UAPs, while he's working with the UAP task course, he is investigating and he finds individuals, but also individuals start coming to him. And, I mean, you need to look into David Grush's background because the level that this guy was

clear to is insane. Again, NRO and NGA extremely highly. I think they said that David Grush had access to like 2,000 special access programs, which is insane. You know, those most people are not going to be assigned. to more than one or two or whatever it is of those programs. He had a really high clearance and oversight to special access programs. And context, if you want to hear more about Grush's background,

you read the debrief article that was written by Leslie Kane and Blumenthal, again, on the debrief about, that's how his story came out, was through that debrief article. And then subsequently he was on News Nation, giving his testimony, which ends up being like a 45-minute video, that was released on News Nation, just so you understand how involved and how clear that David Grush is or was. And here, you know, you have David Grush testifying to these same things that while he was

on official duty and while he was officially tasked to investigate this, he has, you know, again, he found some people and then he said people that he knew in the defense and intelligence industry for years like he knew these people and they were super highly cleared and classified people were telling him and providing information like documents and again i don't know what he can public possibly photographs and maybe videos um again that that there's a crash retrieval program and that there's bodies that have been recovered and that there's a reverse engineering program or you know you UFO technology exploitation program, and he had over 40 plus witnesses that work directly on these programs to this day, that they still work on these programs to this day, give him information.

And while he was investigating this, he started receiving reprisals. So there was retaliation against David Grush personally while he's assigned to do this investigation. So he had to put in an, you know, intelligence community inspector general complaint because he's, he's investigating this at an official capacity. And now he's being targeted, right? Well, like you said, there's two different, you know, trains of thought on how it should be handled. Exactly. I'm sure that's always been the case. Yeah, yeah, right.

And, but the side that's been trying to be more transparent has, has gained momentum just recently since 2017, right? Right. And now they have, they have some force behind them. I mean, now that, that Congress is, so from 2017, like, Congress didn't really know about all this. When that came out, it gave insiders the excuse and the ability and the bravery to start speaking to people in the Senate Intelligence Committee in the Congress. and oversight committees, the armed service committees. At 2017, they started receiving briefings from some of these people. And, you know, we find out through David Grush's testimony, he was able to start providing

some of this information to the two key people who, I mean, like, if you look at the Congress now, and even if, like, Chuck Schumer recently put out language in the National Defense Authorization Act for 2024, and, you know, he's the Senate majority leader, the most powerful man, Senate, and he put out language that is saying, in the language, 22 times, it says non-human intelligence, right? Right. He's not just putting that there 22 times randomly, right? Even if he won't publicly admit it or whatever it is, he knows something.

He's putting that language that he's informed, right? And there's other people in these committees that probably have been briefed on a very secure level. and are convinced and they're taking action that's why we're seeing this here the hearing come together at all right we had the hearing is unprecedented there's never been a ufo hearing in in in the history where you had service members testify it's always been other people that are speaking to to UFO evidence this is firsthand testimony from people who are actively involved and well i would say you know like but you know think about it like i understand what you're saying about Congress, but, you know, well, Congress should know. I mean, okay, certain people

in Congress should probably know. But, I mean, Congress is just some guy who decided, they're representatives, right, right. You know what I'm saying? People are, oh, well, Congress is in the gut. Wait a minute. Congress, they're, they're just representatives. Like, this is some guy who, honestly, a year and a half could have been running a grocery store. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah. But the significance here is that, I mean, publicly, you can see that they're pissed, right? Yeah. You can see the actions that are being taken. Over the last course of years, there's been several of these NDAA National Defense Authorization Acts, where, like, the one from last year, there was over 40 pages dedicated to UAP.

And in the language, you can see the Senate Intelligence Committee. and the Congress are trying to get answers because they've been kept out of the loop. So there are actions being taken for more transparency. You know, you have Senator Gillibrand, who's also from New York, publicly stating

you know, that if she came into the information that this is real, she wants the public to know. And I don't think that this is some kind of show or political move or whatever. I think, because again, you do see the bipartisan support and you see

actions being taken that where if they wanted to they could have just all had some secret meeting somewhere we would have never known about it and never heard about it and that would have been the end of it i don't think it's you know like you know i don't think it's a show i the people that genuinely just don't know and aren't being kept in the loop because they're under kind of the whole delusion that that really that everybody's under which is something that even you said you're like, well, you know, we're living in a democracy. Like, we're not living. We're a Republican.

We're a Democratic Republic. Right. So, you know, there's a whole other system of government and bureaucracy that is going on and has been going on for over 100 years, what, 200 years, I guess. But let's say 100 years where it's been, let's say, well, I guess less than 100 years maybe, on this subject that has compartmentalized itself. in such a way as to keep it from scrutiny from those people that believe we're living in an open, transparent democracy.

And so now that they're about to be, now they're slowly being discovered, they're freaking out. Yes. Well, and see, that's the thing. And part of the thing about the secrecy, I don't think people are so shocked about UFOs, right? I think one of the hardest things for people to realize, right, when they learn, about this and they learn this is true and when this is publicly acknowledged officially

is not that other entities exist and they're interacting with us yeah that's kind of like wow that's amazing but they have to come to terms that they've been lied to right their government lied to them intentionally to keep this away from them so what else what else are they lying about what else are they keeping secret it it flips the table upside down this is this is probably the big one it is I can imagine I'm sure there's like a little thing things, but this is the big one. Yeah, yes, for sure. And so, but then at that point, you have to question your entire view of the world,

your country, everything. You have to question everything at that point. Again, like for me, with the experience, it's on a very deep and personal level. But with this being public and what we're seeing happen, there's a few kind of key things here. Number one, this whole thing is being exposed. So the secrecy, the disinformation, how the issue was handled. so but that also gives us the the opportunity i'm not a utopianist by any means but this gives us

an opportunity to start to get on a better path and say you know if we can correct this issue a little bit right like there's more maybe that that can shift over into other parts of government where there's more transparency you know for different reasons right it gives us an opportunity to make to create change essentially you know how far that can and will go i have have no idea. I'm optimistic. I think this is a really teachable moment. I think we can learn a lot from this whole thing.

You know, not just, you know, because also you have to realize, like people are going to know now. Like, somebody's fucking watching us. Excuse my French.

Like, we're being watched by a higher intelligence and what the hell are they thinking? We're doing, right? I mean, there's going to be people who don't like, don't care, whatever.

Wow. We're being observed by a higher intelligence. And they must think we're nuts. you know like what look what we're doing um just look how we act right like these are like we're hiding stuff from our own people essentially right there are there's people with certain amounts of influence that are have misused power and and and essentially it affects us all though right right so this is a chance to to realize that and potentially start to make change um in in better directions. And the reason I'm optimistic a little bit on that at least is because we've already

seen some of those changes begin. And it might just right now be mostly with the UFO stuff and the secrecy stuff and UAP transparency and how oversight has been undermined. But we've already seen Congress and Senate and bipartisan parties, you know, they have come together, work together on an issue, put their differences aside, and actually make a change. And we've been seeing that happen in real time the last six years, which it's pretty unprecedented. So maybe that will carry over into other, other, you know, subjects and issues. Maybe they'll say, wow, look what we did when we came together and tackled this issue and the changes we made. maybe just maybe we can do that with other things too maybe right again i'm optimistic by nature

i'm hopeful i'm not naive but but maybe maybe that will be a demonstration of really need to get shit done we can get it done i doubt that but i i'm optimistic i'm not naive but i'm optimistic maybe because again because again and i don't think this is like an overnight thing right it's i think this is a generational like this is going to take decades because because now we're going to we're going to come to the acknowledgement officially because in that chuck schumer language it says we need a plan to disclose this to the public you know with plan there's there's the kind of subtle thing of like we have to plan how we're going to communicate this which you know obviously there's going to be some kind of narrative that's unavoidable we have to acknowledge that the

they're not going to paint themselves in a bad light that you know why would they um but you know there there is a plan to disclose this to the public at least on some level right right who knows what they're going to end up officially acknowledging and disclosing i do think that the crash retrieval issue has been purposely put been put forth front and center for a reason i think they are going to address nonhuman intelligence i think they are going to address crash retrievals and reverse engineering programs, I think that that will be publicly acknowledged. So, you know, beyond that, I don't know, I don't know how much, I can't imagine how much further than that, because even that is tremendous.

So I don't know how much further than that they'll go. But, you know, with that, you're going to have a new, I mean, certainly us, we kind of have that idea, but future generations, like even the young, the people who are kids now, are going to grow up knowing for a fact that we're not alone right that that we are you know despite our differences we are one human family right so there's there's going to be generations growing up with that mentality right they have to right my personal um uh suspicion which could very well be wrong is i don't think that the UFO or uap intelligence what the others or whatever you want to call non-human intelligence, I don't think that they're a detrimental

threat to us, right? Could there be threats involved in different ways? If we wouldn't be here. Right. Right. It would have been over. Right. Does that, does that mean that they don't have, they could still have their own self-interest that interferes with our society a little bit, but I don't think they're looking to wipe us out or, you know, whatever it is, right? Or take control or, you know, whatever that case may be. I don't No, I don't know that's the fact, but I don't think that's the case. Yeah, I don't think that, like, listen, if they wanted us gone, like, it would be as simple as they were just sprinkle some, you know, they sprinkle some, some dust and, and everybody with a human DNA would be wiped off the planet. Like, it wouldn't be difficult.

Right. So, yeah. So I, so what I wanted to say with that is you're going to have future that are kids now and even teenagers growing up with the mentality that we are one huge. human society we're one human family and maybe to some extent like we have to stick together just in case right because maybe there's others out there that are visiting us now they're are advanced and they're not they're they're not an overt threat to us but now that we know there are those others we may encounter others in in 20 30 100 200 300 1000 years from now that we really need to be on the same page and not killing each other because we might have to stick together

for our own survival, right? Oh, yeah. So I mean, I think, so what I mean is that which might be even intentional by the UFO phenomenon socially conditioning us is that, you know, I think to some extent people are going to have a mentality that like we kind of have to not kill each other and stick together to some extent because we have to, right? just to even ensure our own survival. So, I mean, that might even be part of why the threat narrative is so, you know, other than the defense issues is being put out there.

So that's why I say I'm optimistic because I think that this issue of non-human intelligence has the potential to teach us and make us grow in a positive direction. You know, whether we take that initiative or not is up to us, right? our individual and collective actions are going to decide that and it is up to us but you know I'm again I'm optimistic so I think that people have the ability to make the right and start going down a path that way and eventually over time you know we're going to see a greater change you know maybe not utopian right I don't think it's going to be a utopian thing but I think that we can grow in a constructive direction. Well, I don't think, I think humans by nature need a struggle.

Right, but we have it. Now we have it. Yeah, utopia would be hell eventually. It would be great for, not three months. It would, yeah, it would dissolve. Right. I don't, I don't think, yeah, we need a challenge. We need that kind of, you know, utopia, yeah.

I think it's too idealistic. Yeah. It's kind of like the Matrix thing where he's excited. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. They kept failing. Listen, there's a there's a there was a I don't know how many times I think they've read I think they've done the same experiment several times where they had like mice generation after generation of mice that they were simply just feeding and keeping alive and and initially they're having children taking care of their children and reproducing but after six or seven generations they stop having sex that much. they stop taking care of the children that they do have they they start becoming like almost

depressed they start um like there's it's a whole breakdown of the their entire society just because it's such a perfect situation for them yeah like you by nature individuals or you know species in in in general have to have some words well and you remove that it's okay is horrible breaks down you know maybe that challenge partially or you know could instead of us like fighting for domain over the earth we'll have other places to explore and you know I always think that to some extent

we're going to have yeah differences and and some level of conflict but you know if we have a great challenge trying to discover in space and you know all these other like planets and stuff and potentially gather resources and we're not fighting so much amongst each other just to survive you know there's maybe less of that right and now but again we're yeah

probably won't be here to you right correct correct yeah no they're gonna they're gonna they have to drag this out um yeah i i i like to me why not just come out like at this point it's already basically out there might as well just come out and say look we've got these crafts here's what they are we'll give you we're going to release X amount of information there's some stuff we're going to keep just for national security but yes at this time this is what happened these are the documented incidents these are the like that to me would be and really I think that would practically nip it in the butt if you said hey we're reverse engineering certain programs we're not going to tell you what they are you know like I'd

be okay with that i think i like the concrete i think we're going to see that in in not a long time from now i because there's already more hearings planned there's a meeting happening i'm my bucket list i just need that i just need personally i hear you i just need it so i yeah yeah i have a few people to apologize to yeah for sure well you know so i think later this week there's going it's not a congressional hearing but like tim bruchette and and others are going to be there talking about the UAP issue in D.C on, I believe it's the 17th. And I believe that will be publicly viewable. But in September, there's supposed to be another hearing, right?

Right. And, you know, based on what I know, speaking to different researchers and people that are involved in the background, this is not slowing down. This is not losing momentum. This is only going further and further. And the people I've spoken to that were involved with some of these programs have said, you know, they're push that they're doing for this is they're trying to go all the way. That's the plan.

And these are people that are intelligence and military and they're very mission oriented. You know, they're very serious about this. And they're not going to stop until it sees the light of day. And I think, I was just saying, you know, it's interesting to me is like I was kind of, you know, I've had those moments where it's like, well, why that, if there's something. many people involved in these programs. How come at some point they don't come out? But I keep thinking about like, shoot, what was his name? Snowden? You know, like, like, you know, documents and the government doesn't care. Right. What comes out? Like, I don't care what, well, what you're

doing is wrong. I don't care. Well, so you think it's wrong or not. Some, some people have out over time, like Phil out on his death, basically. Right. Because, but if you're, if you're 45 years old and you've got two kids. Right. And you're thinking, you're thinking, I know all this. I got information. I got this. You know, some people will say, why don't you come out?

Bro, because I got two kids and a wife, bro. Like, I'll go to prison. You think they won't throw me in prison? So, and here's the thing. We've seen some people like that. Like, Lou Elizondo left his career at the Pentagon where he's at the top of his game. You know, you look up Lou Alizando's credentials. This dude is, I don't know if I could walk away from that job.

And he's got kids, right? Right. um and he he walked away from that job to to help push this forward now he's probably has retained his security clearances and can and can work in the uh you know in um you know defense industry right but that's still a risk there might be people that don't want to hire him because right too so um so he he faced a a lot of um you know pushback for what he did but he's also not walking away with actual documents he's not walking away with really secure documents is he he helped get the tapes out i'm not i'm not going to say to what he got to who right i can't say that

he's doing such a way that he's got plausible you know kind of deniability right like i look 100% when from me you know you can at least it's not like you're walking out saying look here's this he he did it in the way that it had to be done because if he just came out with the information it's not going to correct the issue people are going to say oh that's true true or other people are going to say, all this bullshit, and we're still in the same spot we've been in for the last 70 years. What Louis Alizando did, Christopher Mellon, David Grush, and all these people that have been pushing for this, they've done it through official channels that has resulted in

creating the change we're seeing because they did it the right way. The disclosure project was a great initiative. I don't think we would be here without it. But the way it was done, it was almost brushed off, right? because it got the awareness out there but nobody was brave enough to make the changes it didn't go through the proper channels it was just like to hell with it

we are we're just putting this out there and again it ultimately let us here because I don't think we would be here now if those events didn't occur with Stephen Greer and then that because you know the disclosure project was in 2001 right but and Lawrence Rockefeller and Bill Clinton tried to get involved

and got pushed out and other people tried this was going on in the early 90s so it took from early 90s with Project Starlight with Stephen Greer and Lawrence Rockefeller and Bigelow was involved back then and all these people were involved until

2001 when the disclosure project happened just to get that meet that event in Washington D.C. to occur and from 2001 to 2017 for more people on the inside realizing that this is true and working together and Harry Reid creating the offset program 2008 and getting a program on the record, which was later publicly disclosed

by Lou Elizondo and acknowledged by everybody else who was involved, you know, which there are a lot of people, a lot of people made this happen from the inside. And, you know, again, there's been distrust over that because there's, oh, you can't trust these people, but, you know, who else are going to get the information other than the people that are involved right right so and so there's there's a lot of distrust in in some of the the research community uh because they're paranoid and they should be but that's the really 90 year cover up basically you know um right it has this it's created a cognitive dissonance and and it's you know the cover up has been has done a lot of damage right um but now you know you have another individual who came forward or I've mentioned a bunch of times now is

David Grush right so David Grush came out but he did so like in a through an official channel he went to the community inspector general and put an official complaint not only that he witnessed these things these programs being mismanaged but also that he faced retaliation personally and was in fear of his life because of this and And the intelligence community inspector general, as reported by that deep brief article on David Grush, deemed his testimony and the evidence that he provided to the intelligence community inspector general, he deemed it urgent and credible. And David Grush has given over 11 and a half hours privately on all the information he

knows to these people, right, in the intelligence community inspector general and maybe people within Congress, that he 11.5 hours of testimony, but also provided all the evidence to support his claims. And there were people that have worked directly on the program. Other whistleblowers, David Grush vetted, have also testified in a classified setting, you know, privately to these intelligence community inspector general and maybe in different committees, there's several of those 40 plus witnesses have also supported and corroborated and verified what David Gresh reported initially. So there's a ton of other witnesses that are out there that have worked or do work directly on these UFO crash retrieval

and reverse engineering programs that have spoken to the people that can actually do something about it. And that's why we're seeing this ground swell and that's why we're seeing everything happen now because these people that are making the language and these decisions now, basically they're in the loop now.

And there's no going back, basically. You're not putting this one back because somebody, at any given time, if things don't go a court if things don't go the nice way some of these people are going to put the information out anyways right there's fail you don't really want to come out officially and say listen it's just not the case you know you and take a hard stand at this point because then suddenly suddenly people get it frustrated and they come out and they go ahead and they say I'll bite the

bullet I'm going to release some stuff right and now you're the guy that was standing in front of the podium lying yeah well and and the thing is like now there's there's enough momentum and there's enough support that when that information comes out now it won't be disregarded people will investigate it actively and when when they investigate it they're going to find they're getting the information and you know i'm convinced that several of these people have already have their some of their evidence and testimony stashed somewhere nice so if things don't go the right way there are people in key places that are going to release the information anyways and it's going to come out

to the public one way or another. So it's in the best interest of Congress and the Senate and even people within these programs that are trying to stonewall this. It's within their best interest to go along with what's going on because they're only going to get hurt if they don't because David Grush provided locations, personnel, code names and code numbers, everything of where these programs are, how to find them, how they're funded, and even in some of the recent NDAA language, people have been given anonymity to come forward within a certain time. And if they don't come forward and they're found after the six-month period or 60-day period, whatever it is, they could be charged criminally under prosecution for not coming forward when they

were asked so it's within their best interest to comply basically and they're again they're being they're being given amnesty to some degree so they even if they're part of a program like this or they have knowledge of it they're not going to be penalized by the government they're not going to be persecuted for being involved you know they can come forward safely with the information testimony and the evidence that they have on this just specifically pertaining to the UFO or UAP subject and provide it to the proper people that they need to, the proper committees, and they will not receive retaliation or, you know, they won't get in trouble for it. Well, if you're one of the people that don't want this to come out, you were in charge of one of those,

you got, they've got to, those agencies or, or, um, programs and they've got to be freaking out right now. Hell yeah. Hell yeah. I have to be in one of those meetings. everybody's like there's been speculation in the research community about that too and I don't I don't want to contribute to to rumors but yeah that's that's certainly the case and I think there's enough people that are within those programs that are on board that they're they're complying and there you know the reason that David Grush was able to come out was because the prior year in the NDA language the National Defense Authorization Act language and the Gen. Amendment, they called for whistleblower protection. So that's how David Grush was able to come out as a whistleblower. He's the first official UFO whistleblower in history.

And so his case is highly important. And the fact that he was able to testify under oath in front of Congress is super important. And I think it's really important that people get behind him and support him. The people that are willing to come behind him and follow up and be whistleblower watching how David Grush is being treated. So I think we really need to support him. So people will be encouraged to come behind him and share and be whistleblowers to this subject as well. Well, listen, I, and you, you, you, do you talk about this on your channel, all this, the different things that are happening or what is your channel, your YouTube channel specifically going over? Do you go in?

I talk about everything. I talk about everything. So I talk about contact and CE5 and experience or stuff, but I also talk about this issue. And, you know, again, I'll go into some history stuff sometimes. But current events for sure, the last interview I did with Robbins, who has Post-Disclosure World, you should have him on as a guest sometime. He's a great, he's a researcher, but he makes great view him up. I think you'll be entertained by his videos, but also informed.

So I cover all this on my channel engaging the phenomenon because it's important. You know, I think, and the thing is, it's, everything is so fast nowadays. Like years ago in the research community of the shitty news article, we were like, yes, victory. It's, it's like a full-time job now. It's hard to keep up with everything that's going on. That's how fast it's moving now. We're so interconnected at this point, yeah. Well, and there's happening.

There's so many, like, congressional witnesses coming forward, new information coming forward new more reporting on it um you have other mainstream reporters um my i believe his name michael sheller i hope i'm not messing up his name reporting you know he's an investigative journalist um i think he wrote an article for the time he's spoken to some of the witnesses some of these whistleblowers and he can't share their identity but he's saying he's vetted you know their credentials they are who they say they are they have the security currencies that they claim to have. And they're telling him, like, we have these crafts.

We have the reverse engineering programs and, you know, bodies and everything. And so there's other investigators, him, and he even said this on the skeptics, Michael Schumer. I mean, Michael, I'm thinking on his name now, the guy who's the skeptic guy. I don't know who that is. everybody we're talking about he's he's like the official skeptic um but he you know Michael Schumer Michael Shermer so Michael Shermer runs like a skeptical podcast and he had this gentleman on and they were talking about these issues and again he's written an article about it so and again Leslie Kane is another journalist and Ralph Blumenthal that you know

people need to keep track of their work and what they're saying Ross Colthart has done a lot of work on this with David Grush on News Nation. You know, I'm not crazy about mainstream news sources, but News Nation has taken this topic on full on. And when it comes to this, they've been doing excellent reporting, fearless, basically. They're not holding any punches. So if you go on like News Nation's YouTube channel and you're looking at all their UFO content, they're they're not pulling punches so if you know you want to stay up to speed it's definitely

you know it's a good idea to check some of those out either uh as well okay well listen i i appreciate you coming on and you know going over your story and and just you know talking about talking on the subject you're clearly way more knowledgeable than i am um yeah well you know thanks for having me on. I really appreciate it. You know, you have the open mind enough to and, and the eyes to see that, you know, what's going on right in front of everybody's eyes basically now at this point. Well, I think, I know, I can't imagine anybody at this point would, would not realize that there's something obviously major that's happening. There's still some people that are like holding, and it's, believe it or not, it's like the hardcore scientific community, like

Neil de Grossey Tyson and Mick West and others who, who, they, some, they have it. Yeah, but. Listen, 25 years ago, they would mock people that would look for other planets. Right. Right. Exactly. There's hundreds of thousands of them now. Millions. What happened to being ridiculous looking for other planets now?

Yeah. There's millions of Goldilocks planets. There's millions of Earth-like planets. Right. Exactly. They're in that perfect zone where there's a super good chance of life. And that's just our, that's just our galaxy, right? There's hundreds of billions of other galaxies, right?

I tend to because I you know with time you tend to be wrong so often I tend to not dig in on anything I it's it's there's so much there's just so much information in our world today you can't keep track of everything you know like it's it's just crazy even with the UFO subject now it's like almost too much right and any other subject subsequently like again this that astrology and all this. It's just like, it's overwhelming. So you got to pick, you got to use your time, you know, skillfully.