Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - The Real Story Behind Famous Government Conspiracies

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Starting point is 00:00:30 Had there never been any government conspiracies that have been caught? Of course they have. The plane that was flying CIA shot down. You know that's my case, right? That's the whole thing. Why was it there? Why was it in that building? I don't know what we're talking about.

Starting point is 00:00:43 We just cut it up, dude. I thought we were it goes. Rogan style? Just see where it goes? Oh, I hate that. I can't do it. Yeah, I hate him too. What?

Starting point is 00:00:50 No, I didn't say I hated him. He's washed up. Matt, you're not getting on there. Tell us how you really feel about Joe Rogan. It's over for you. Actually, I've never. You know what? The most Rogan I've watched has been like on.

Starting point is 00:01:00 when someone clips like a five minute or a three minute section and then I've watched that like I've never watched a whole Rogan but it's not it's not an insult to him I don't think I've really ever watched an entire podcast even if I'm in the podcast or they're talking about me I scroll till I find it because I just don't want to you know hear two guys or about four guys talk it's it's brutal to call this people often insinuate including Rogan, that the podcasting is the new television. Please don't compare this to television, to the effort and the creativity that writers and directors and cinematographers

Starting point is 00:01:38 and the set people and the actors had to put in to make your favorite TV show. This is not the same thing. Yeah, I would say this is... Two guys talking into a mic. Yeah, this to me feels like the same thing I did in prison was walking around the track, talking about different things, and just cutting up. I one time had a week-long conversation with probably three or four individuals that started, it started at the, at this area we called Stonehenge, right?

Starting point is 00:02:07 It was a circular area with a bunch of concrete picnic tables. And so we were all talking, you know, somebody would come up with a subject, you know, like something stupid like, you know, what would your superpower be if you were a superhero? And you guys, and in the real world, that's a two-minute conversation between a couple guys. They all, oh, this, this, this, this. Yeah, see through chicks dresses, boom. But in prison, that's a 45 minute to an hour conversation. And one time we were talking, we had seen the remake.

Starting point is 00:02:39 Oh, gosh, it was the Arnold, it's the red planet of Total Recall. They remade it, right, with a Colin Farrell. And so somebody had said it, and we started talking about that. And then somebody else said, well, you know it was a good remake. And that conversation turned into what would your top five remakes be? And I mean, and then they called recall. So there's like 45 minutes in on that alone. Right.

Starting point is 00:03:04 But then you got to go, you guys get broken up. We get, they call recall. Everybody goes back to their units. And for, and we couldn't, we didn't all get back together for probably a week. But during the week, you're walking by each other constantly. And I would say, and I'd go, Logan's run. He'd be a kind of, they kind of already did that when they did a, uh, uh, uh, uh, out of time.

Starting point is 00:03:23 I was like, no, no, no, bullshit. No, Rogan's, that would be amazing because of this and this and this. And as you're walking, because you can't stop, they start screaming at you. Right, right, right. Because it's in between the, in between the moves. And then an hour later. Yeah. Da-da-da-da-da-da.

Starting point is 00:03:37 Yeah. And then maybe two of you all get together. This went on for a week. So it's almost like it's mini podcast. It's a mini podcast series that you guys had. You got three minutes. You start the conversation 40 feet away. Right.

Starting point is 00:03:47 Hey, you know what? You know what's a good one? What? serious? Oh, you didn't see that one. What was that? Well, see, it was red. And you finished that conversation, an hour, two hours later. Right. And then eventually we all got back together. We all had our lists. You know, or you might see each other at the one of the five of you or four of you would see each other in the rec yard. And you'd walk. You'd walk the track. Talking. And that's what I feel like these are. I would say, like, I'm not doing anything differently now than when some guy would say,

Starting point is 00:04:19 Hey, bro, you got to talk to my roommate. He just got in. He fucking robbed six banks. He told me his story last night. It's amazing. You got to talk to him. I go, I'll meet me out in the wreckyard. And then he and I would walk around for two hours talking about his story and then leave.

Starting point is 00:04:32 But nobody paid me for that. Right. I just sit there. It was like a movie. Some of these were movies. Some were just like, oh, you've just had a horrible life. Imagine micing an inmate up. Two, a couple guys walking?

Starting point is 00:04:44 That's right. Or wherever. In the cell, fresh stories. in from federal prison podcast series. Unbelievable. Yeah. Unbelievable. I've thought about that before.

Starting point is 00:04:53 Like, is there a way? I think people have attempted this, like, doing a podcast through the prison phone or whatever they'd use now. They have like FaceTime. Yeah. Now, I think you can actually get on camera. Right. But I think that's a limit. Like, you can only be on there like 45 minutes or something.

Starting point is 00:05:09 Well, it doesn't make you just break it up. I mean, there's up where you were last. Right. In the feds, they have fucking smartphones everywhere. So like just make, make a series from the joint. Yeah, but if it was smart for that, then when it comes out, the guy's going to the shoe. You know, mostly these guys are like, yeah, I'm here, it's such and such. And then they post it.

Starting point is 00:05:28 And two days later, they're in the shoe for 60 days. They're on a bus for six months. So the feds have people monitoring, like social media platforms to see prison content? I don't know. They have it constantly being monitored, but if it does well, it's going to get picked up. And somebody somewhere is going to be like, hey, Isn't this your prison? Don't you work here?

Starting point is 00:05:47 And they're like, yeah, that guy's in B3. Think I'll talk to the lieutenant tomorrow morning. Right, right, right, right. Let's throw him in jail. Obviously, he's got a cell. First of all, let's rush his cell. Right. Clean his cell phone out.

Starting point is 00:06:00 Find the guy that's keeping all the cells because, or the cell phones. Because, you know, they always have, well, they'll have like one or two guys in every unit. That holds them. His whole job, he'll get paid like $10 a month to hold your cell phone and keep it charged. So you can walk by him. man, I need my phone. They got to be like, okay, hold on a second. He'll walk in the bathroom and come back and be like here, and you're like, okay, thank you.

Starting point is 00:06:20 So he gets paid $10 a phone? 10 bucks a phone. It's a pretty good hustle. It is. If you're keeping 10 phones or five phones, I'm not sure how many he keeps in his prison purse, but he's some stashed somewhere. Why is that guy better at keeping phones? Like, what is the secret to be able to keep phones without getting detected?

Starting point is 00:06:37 Is he just under the radar? No, I don't think it's that he's better. I think he's willing to take the charge. I don't want to get caught with my phone. I don't want to be shipped. I don't want to lose my visits. So for $10, it's worth it. And you don't want to lose your phone.

Starting point is 00:06:50 That was thousands of dollars. You need that thing. Well, if he gets caught, he's still going to lose it. But at least I don't have to go to the shoe or miss my visits. I just have to get a new phone. Because if he gets caught, he's getting caught with multiple phones. Right, right. Listen, some of the – what's so funny is the worst the prison is, the less they could

Starting point is 00:07:08 give a shit about phones. You know, like they're trying to keep these guys from stabbing each other. Right. We're not trying to shake people down. Right. We just, we just, either the guards don't want to be stabbed. They don't want these guys stabbing each other. She's shaking you down because you've got a, you're tattooing or you have a phone.

Starting point is 00:07:22 Yeah. They could care a lot. I had a guy on my podcast recently, Aaron Pila, shout out, really good guy, good episode. He was in Victorville through the pandemic. So he got out just a couple of years ago. And he was saying, you know, in the lead up in the last like five or six years, the, they've, they have such a hiring shortage that they started hiring really like fresh off the book. immigrants, you know, a lot of Puerto Ricans, a lot of Mexicans, a lot of Dominicans as C-O's. And so a lot of phones been getting in.

Starting point is 00:07:52 Like, you could just go up to them. You don't even have to, like, shuck and jive like you would with like an American guard. Like, hey, what's going on, man? How are the kids? Try and befriend him first slowly, slowly reel him in over a month or so. They can just walk up and say how much. What's up, man? You want to want to make two grand?

Starting point is 00:08:09 Boom. And he's, my brother's going to be in the parking lot tomorrow. And he said, dude, the price of the phones fell from like $8,000 a phone to like $3,000, because all these guards are the price is lowering. Everybody's willing to bring it in. Crazy. Yeah. Glad we're not in there, man.

Starting point is 00:08:29 Yeah. Did any part of you not miss it? I don't want to say miss it. Of course you don't miss it, but look back on it kind of like with nostalgia. Like, God, those conversations were some of the most interesting kind of spirited. camaraderie that I've ever had. I mean, yeah, no, I definitely think that's true. I think it's funny that I noticed how open people were to telling their story, right?

Starting point is 00:08:59 Like, you know, there's lots of guys, you know, don't talk about your case. Don't talk about your case. Okay, but if you had a bank fraud case and you went to trial and you were found guilty, they got you. Like, you don't have to worry about this isn't. This isn't. You don't have a buyer. This is in jail. Yeah, these guys aren't, you know, aren't dodging, yeah, murder charges. Okay. It's like the guy I was doing credit card fraud. He's been caught. He's done. He got his five years. So I was like that because you don't get them, other than podcasting, you don't get to meet those people in the real world. Even when I was on the run, you know, I never really met those people. Like I might meet a mortgage broker that was corrupt. Like, you know, like you could talk like, hey, I can make this. Do you

Starting point is 00:09:43 mine, you know, I can this, I can this, but this, I'm making these. So you can't call, you can't do this. And they be like, yeah, no problem. Very seldom, though, only met a few of those guys, right? But in prison, you're like, so what did you do? Oh, it was counterfeiting credit cards. Really? And they're, and they're like, I'm like, really? How long did you do it for like five years? This is my third time I've been in jail. Well, how do you, how do you even get into that? Well, see, and they just start telling you. Yeah. And they just are telling you. Yeah. This is amazing. You never had those conversations out here. No, and it's like a judgment-free zone.

Starting point is 00:10:15 Absolutely. They can tell you horrific fucking things. And you're just like, you're just like that this is, yeah, it's insane. And they'll talk about ripping off other people and getting ripped off and just things that, things that out here, you know, if somebody, it's like out here, people are, don't even want to tell you that they've, like they got, they have a felony. Right. Like, unless you open up to them first and they see that you're super. open and okay and everything. And then eventually they'll say,

Starting point is 00:10:47 and so it always feels like it's like a relief to them that they, they start like they're holding it in and they're like, you know, I wanted to mention something. I'm like, yeah, they're like, yeah, they're like, yeah, they're like, really? What happened?

Starting point is 00:10:59 They're like, see what? And then they'll kind of tell you, don't let my wife know that I told you though because she doesn't want anybody to know. It's like, oh, like, get rid of her. Yeah. Like, I mean, your wife's telling you, don't tell anybody.

Starting point is 00:11:10 Right. Well, this is America, dude. We lock up 5% of the world's population, 25% of their prisoners. Like, if you haven't been to jail, have you even taken a risk? Yeah. It's probably why you haven't gotten where you want to be in life, dude. You're not betting on yourself. It's like these, I forget what the percentage.

Starting point is 00:11:26 It's a huge percentage of millionaires that have claimed bankruptcy. Right. Of course they've claimed bankruptcy. Why? Because they, because they roll the dice, dude. They've done it over and over again until something works. It's, there was an interview with Jeff Bezos, I mentioned. I've mentioned before that I watched.

Starting point is 00:11:42 where he's been an interview in some guys like, wow, man, you know, they're like Amazon. And they start mentioning all of these huge companies he owns. And he said, you know what's funny? Because nobody ever mentions Blue Box. And I don't know what the company was. But he mentioned some company that's kind of like, oh, yeah, what happened with that? And he mentions like five of them. And he says, you know, we put half a million dollars, or sorry, like half a billion dollars into this company, lost it all within three years.

Starting point is 00:12:10 We put, he starts naming off companies. You're like, oh, yeah, what happened? Oh, yeah, that's right. And he goes, nobody ever mentions the half a billion or the trillion dollars that we've lost, opening companies that just failed. He's like, they only remember your successes. Yeah. And I remember thinking he's absolutely right.

Starting point is 00:12:31 Absolutely right. No, you have to take risk and fail. If you're not failing, if you're not okay with failing, you're never going to be successful. There's ways to do it, right? Failure's okay. Disaster, we try to avoid, right? Fail fast. Like when you and I making content with the murder men, for example, like my whole philosophy, and I think you share it, I think we kind of have this in common, it's like let's do it fast. Let's go, let's go now to see if it works. And if not, we lost a little bit of time, a little bit of effort, no big deal. So there's ways to do

Starting point is 00:13:04 it, right? You fall forward. Like the way he brought that around to our venture. Well, I am one of the color commentators in the business. We call that one of the most underrated. Oh, yeah. Underrated hosts. You are the most underrated. I know one other of the most underrated hosts in the business. And he lets us know that, doesn't he?

Starting point is 00:13:24 Yes. But you were on that list, my friend. Oh, my God. So, hey, so this is what I wanted to say. Bankruptcy is like parole or probation. It's like getting off probation. It's like getting your record. wiped clean. Like bankruptcy is saying, hey, you took a chance on yourself, on business. It failed.

Starting point is 00:13:47 You're going to be fucked up for about seven years. Your credit is going to be shot. You're going to have a difficult time getting other business loans. But it's okay. Like you can start over. It's like wiping your sleigh clean. It's funny. Just real quick bankruptcy. I don't know if it's still like this, but it stays on your record for seven years, but it's actually only about two years that banks don't want to lend to you. After two years, because guys would come in, and one of the questions on the borrower application was,

Starting point is 00:14:20 this is a federal statistical questions, there's like 12 of them, that you ask, one of them is how you've claimed bankruptcy in the last seven years, and people would say yes. And then you'd put down when, and they'd say, yeah, I'm not going to be able to get the loan? Well, how long ago is they tell me? I go, no, you're over three years. It was only two years.

Starting point is 00:14:39 Like, you couldn't get a Fannie Mae or a Freddie Mac loan for two years. And it's like, why is it seven? I don't know why it's seven. I think because it falls off your credit in seven. I don't know what the deal. I think you can only claim it like every seven years or something. But really, most banks only care, as long as it's two years out of being discharged, they'll start lending to you again.

Starting point is 00:14:57 You just disclose it. And yeah, this is it. But in two years, I got credit cards. I got them. I rebuilt my credit. And they're like, okay, cool. And they're ready to go. It's really not that bad of a deal.

Starting point is 00:15:04 Anyway, back to talking about taking risks is that so you're the Connect with Johnny Mitchell and we have Matthew Cox inside true crime. So we both have podcasts. So, you know, we were talking the other day. I came over and we did, I flew into Austin. Was it Austin? That's where I live, yeah. Okay. I was just, I was just going to go Texas.

Starting point is 00:15:31 Yeah, I was trying to think. What was it? I fly so much. I don't know where I'm going. Dude, I did a wicked impression of you yesterday for John. You want to see it? Yes, yes, yes. All right, here it goes.

Starting point is 00:15:42 Oh, fuck. It's just that simple, too. So I flew in, and we did a podcast on Garth Brooks being a serial killer, which is a book that I've written. That's it. And we did it. We actually did it once for about 30 minutes, maybe 40. May it almost an hour. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:16:08 Oh, okay. An hour. And then all of a sudden you said, this sucks. I know we can do better this. Let's do it again. And I was thinking to myself the whole time, it doesn't matter. Like this is all silliness. Nobody's watching this episode.

Starting point is 00:16:21 And I was like, nobody's watching. It doesn't matter. No, no, we could do it better. Don't do it. From now, we're going to do this. We're going to do it. So we did it again. And then when we left, you hugged me again like a small child.

Starting point is 00:16:31 I come up to here on you. You keep hugging me. I'm a big huger. I love hugging you. And so it doesn't affect him if you say, well, I'm not really a hugger. By the time you're like, I'm not. really a huger. He's already going, hey, come on, buddy. Yeah, I don't listen. No. So, Matt's only hugged. I've only seen him hug one person in five years of

Starting point is 00:16:47 doing this podcast. Are you guys ever hugged? No, no. Yeah, you're a really like old school kind of keep it in, psycho white guy. You just put her there, slug her. Oh. Listen, the funniest thing was with, uh, what was the little, the Chinese girl, the little Chinese girl? The crypto person in Vegas. Yes. She's been on her show. Yeah. Uh, let me look her up. Super, she's very cute, very nice, super smart. She was on the show. We were talking about, we were talking about Sam Bankman-Fried. She did a whole series on him.

Starting point is 00:17:19 She knows him. Oh, oh, Tiffany Fong. Tiffany Fong. So I went to Brad Lee's place to do an interview with him. And when I'm there, she's there. She's there with Tyler. So she's there and like, I'm shaking everybody's hand. And she walks in and she hugs one guy, hugs the expert, turns to hug me.

Starting point is 00:17:39 And I go, I'm really, I'm, I'm, I'm, and I put my hand out. She, like, grabbed my hand and she's leaning in the hug. And she kind of shook my hand. I was like, I'm not really a hugger. She was, that was super awkward. Nice. Nice. She, like, said it.

Starting point is 00:17:53 You just turned out, just a bubbly Chinese girl. I can't help it. So, anyway, the point is, is that that, that, uh, we did our video. Yeah. And then when I was leaving, I was like you, because you were like, man, that was a banger. That was great. That was this. And I was sitting there going, I don't know.

Starting point is 00:18:09 you have to understand that you I don't think you're going to get a lot of views on this like no no I'm telling it was great that's why it's why it made us start over yeah well just a little curtain pull here if a guest is on my show I don't know about inside true crime with Matt Cox but the connect with Johnny Mitchell if if you're a guest on my show and you're bombing we will start that motherfucker over okay I think we've probably maybe done that once or twice five minutes in maybe we're right we're just going to follow we're just going all oh doggy doggy we've done a whole episode. I've gone through a whole two-hour episode, and then this guy who had a great story, who should have been, was charismatic, he was good looking, and goes, I go, how do you think we did?

Starting point is 00:18:48 He goes, I thought it went pretty well. How do you think it went, John? I go, I think we should do it over. And we did it over, and he killed it. I gave him directions like a director. I put him, and it puts pressure on these people. No, I know. And it's good. I've been experiencing it. Yeah. That's right. In the last. week. Yeah. And you step up. You step up, dude.

Starting point is 00:19:11 And yeah, we did the whole thing over. Episode went great, did good numbers. But you don't know if you had released the original episode if it would have done just as well. It would have sucked. So anyway, I leave thinking, and I remember telling Jess, I said, it might get 50,000, maybe 100,000 views. And it got like 400,000 views. Yeah. And then the TikToks did well.

Starting point is 00:19:30 Yeah, yeah. We viral on TikTok. Did big numbers on Spotify, you know, did big numbers on Instagram. So then we decided that, because we actually talked about this, I think, during the podcast or after the podcast, where we were talking about what the makeup of, the audience makeup of was of our, you know, our viewers. So mine is about 91, 92%. It used to be 98% male. Right. Now, over the last three or four years, it's dropped down to it's about 91, 98. So I'm about, I've got about 8% female.

Starting point is 00:20:07 watching. 92% male. Which is odd because true crime is like 65% to 70% female audiences. That's right. But if you kind of, if you break it apart, it's actually violent true crime. So serial killers, murder investigations, any type of thing to do with murder, that's what women are consuming at 65 to 75%. Right. 70%.

Starting point is 00:20:35 And so. We don't really do true crime. crime. Yeah. I mean, especially not me. I do true crime. Yours is more drug, more smugglers. It's crime.

Starting point is 00:20:45 Okay. It's crime. Prison crime drugs, yeah. I do true crime, but I don't, I don't really specialize in prison. I mean, we do talk about prison sometimes. Sometimes the guy's whole story is prison. Does it make sense? Like maybe he got caught right away for drugs and then went to prison for eight years

Starting point is 00:20:59 in some, you know, hellhole. And then the whole thing, it's like, oh my God. But most of the time, the prison part of it is five or ten. minutes of the end of the show. Well, so I typically do true crime, but it's focusing more on what I typically consider more smart crimes, right? Yeah. Yeah. You know, whatever. Listen, bank robbery, bank fraud. I do more, we'll call it hood crime. Yeah. We have a large urban audience, who I love. Sue, so listen, whenever I mention this to you, if we have a black guy, like a black drug dealer on here, who's... Matt, careful.

Starting point is 00:21:35 Who care easy. Who speaks kind of, you know, street. Those videos go amazing. We'll get hundreds of thousands of views. Because part of it is half the time you can see me trying to be like, I don't like, I don't. Okay, so you keep saying the. You're like my father, dude.

Starting point is 00:21:57 Like, so he was speaking ebonics? Right. And it was specifically didn't say ebonics. I avoided the word ebonics. I get you're saying, though. It's people love watching a guy that looks like he just got off the golf course talking to a guy with gold teeth in his mouth. Yeah. For me, that's normal.

Starting point is 00:22:14 Like I speak the language. I'm at their level usually. So it's kind of normalized, even though, yes, people still love it. But yeah, you're especially, that's like a treat, I feel like, for your viewers. You know what I mean? But yeah, true crime as we, as a category goes, generally involves murder. Okay. Right.

Starting point is 00:22:35 Murder mysteries, serial killers. I think it's, I think the genre can be kind of. It can be fluid. Sure. Sure. But so what we decided was, we decided after Johnny called me and said, listen, here's what we're doing. And I thought, we're not close enough that you can tell me what we're doing. But, okay, what are we doing?

Starting point is 00:22:54 Here's what we're doing. We're going to start a second channel. And we're going to focus just on serial killers and conspiracies because you can't commit. And so you said we're going to focus on that and we're going to do a bunch of episodes and we're going to put them out and we're going to start another channel because I, first all, it doesn't affect our current channel. No. Because those, those viewers are already locked in on what they want to want to view.

Starting point is 00:23:23 Yeah. We're going for the 8% or whatever percent that doesn't watch that we're trying to find the other 92% that's out there that's not watching our main. That's right. We're trying to expand the market. Yeah. And look, this is not something. This is not yet a guest-driven show.

Starting point is 00:23:40 We may bring in guests from time to time, but I kind of think that this will just remain a you and I buddy-buddy chatting it up, going through the facts, arguing, trying to crack the code. You know, I'm always trying to arrive at a conspiracy. You swat those down, like any good dad, like any good boomer would do. But, yeah, I don't know. What year is boomer, by the way? I don't think. I'm not a boomer.

Starting point is 00:24:06 But you're in your bones. You've got the makings of a guy born in 1951. What's funny is the, I went on Danny Jones's podcast. And one of the, and everything he said, I just disagreed with. You know, everything he said. And one of the comments, the highest, I think one of the most liked comments in his comment section was Matt Cox has never heard an official narrative. He doesn't believe.

Starting point is 00:24:36 And I am now starting to repeat that comment on our show, The Murder Men, whenever I feel you going full, full government, full Fed, dude. Anything the government tells me. That is not true. You had a great line, though, you go, dude, just let me be. I did 13 years. Just let me, let me agree with what the Fed say. I can't upset these people.

Starting point is 00:25:00 I just can't. I can't find myself in front of a judge again. I have a lot of power, dude. But yeah, so we went and we got 12 different stories. They're not all serial killer stories. A few of them are conspiracies. Right. We did Timothy McVeigh, which I was blown away by.

Starting point is 00:25:20 I didn't know a lot about that. We did O.J. Simpson, which was, you know, by the end, I don't want to bury the lead. But OJ was fun. We did help me out here. We did Tyler Robinson. Tyler Robinson, the Charlie Kirk shooter. Right. And went through all, went through, I can't tell you how many, how many videos I watched.

Starting point is 00:25:41 Yeah. And I didn't watch the newsreels. It was all these guys with the firing the gun and the ballistic gel. And was he here? Was he there? Was there another shooter? Yeah, we went through all of those. Let me ask you something really quick.

Starting point is 00:25:53 We also did Kurt Cobain. Oh, yeah. Which I am still, I think from the whole week, now that we're done filming the first tranche of I think I'm more convinced that that is a murder, a murder made to look like a suicide. Like all cheekiness aside, all like propaganda, clickbait aside. So I'm excited for you guys to watch it and let us know what you think. But the Tyler Robinson shooting, did that, the Charlie Kirk shooting, Tyler Robinson, the trigger man, the research you did about that, watching the videos of those guys with the caliber

Starting point is 00:26:32 a bullet that he fired at Charlie Kirk and, you know, they said that that would have gone through his, through his, would have taken his whole vertebrae off, would have severed his spine, would have gone through him and probably hit somebody else, killed somebody else. There's conflicting,

Starting point is 00:26:50 there's conflicting elements of that. It's not necessarily true. Could have fired a smaller caliber bullet. Did that affect how you feel about the JFK shooting at all? The JFK assassination? I think... Did you find any parallels to that? The only thing, I am more of the mind that Oswald did take the shot, but that there were other shooters.

Starting point is 00:27:17 So, which is, the official narrative with Oswald is that, you know, he was a lone gunman. He took the shot. That was it. But, you know, I love the, the J. Did you ever see the movie, JFK? Of course. It was great. Oliverstone. So, but I, I now believe more that narrative that there, there were other shooters.

Starting point is 00:27:41 Right. You know, the magic bullet is, it's, it's too much with the magic bullet. And it's too, there's just too many, there's too many circumstantial aspects to that where it's the, they changed the route at the last minute. They had to go right by. They slowed down to 15 miles an hour. They, you know, just, just across the board, there's too much there. And there was two, There was too much for the industrial, you know, compound or sorry, complex, whatever. Military industrial complex? Thank you. Military industrial. Military industrial complex.

Starting point is 00:28:14 There was, there was too much for them to gain. He was, I believe, JFK wanted to start pulling out of. Oh, yeah. The motive was insane. Yeah. They had multiple people. Not only did you have the mafia who JFK promised. They were not prosecuted.

Starting point is 00:28:32 They were furious because then RFK, you appoints RFK to be the head of the FBI, and then they just started indicting these guys. And they're the ones who got JFK elected. Like they swung the election on the south side of Chicago or the north side of Chicago during the elections of 1959, 1960. So that you have that element. He's also Cubans are furious at him, the exiled Cubans, because after the Bay of Pigs, disaster. Which he completely botched the J. Right.

Starting point is 00:28:59 I read a couple books on them. that when I was locked up. And I mean, every book I read was that JFK basically, one, he left them out to just be butchered. But on top of that, he, when he got into office, he completely changed the plan where they were going to land. He made that more difficult. He made everything about it because he was afraid it looked too much like a D-Day style invasion. And he changed everything about it. He limited their air support, everything. And so then when they got there, the agreement was if you get there and hold the beach, which they did for three days. We'll come. Right. They never come in and just let him run out of bullets and gas and everything else that get slaughtered.

Starting point is 00:29:33 Exactly. So not only did they bundle the whole thing, but then he refused to go back. They wanted to do another better invasion and really topple the regime, the many elements, not only the exile Cubans, but the CIA, the head, the Department of Defense, right, the military cabinet. I would think that the argument for that would be the Cuban missile crisis is that because he then one of the agreements with Khrushchev was, Cruzchev. Khrushchev? Whatever. Was that? Tomato?

Starting point is 00:30:07 There goes mad. So, uh... Albums. Albums. I still don't understand why I'm saying album's wrong. Have you read the comments to the Garth Brooks video? Oh. Why does this guy keep saying albums?

Starting point is 00:30:19 What is it? It's albums. Albums. Albums? That's how you say it. Albums. Really? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:30:26 It's albums, right? Albums. Yeah. That's stupid. Just think, that's stupid. I know it's stupid. I don't agree with it either, but it's just how he's saying, man. I'm sorry, buddy. Anyway, what ends up happening is that, yeah, during the Cuban missile crisis, is one of his agreements with the Soviets was that if they turned around no missiles in Cuba, we'll pull our missiles out of, I think it was Turkey.

Starting point is 00:30:49 Turkey, yep. And on top of that, we'll never invade Cuba. Yeah. So that was the agreement. So I could kind of see him saying, no, I've already made this agreement. I don't want to go into Cuba. But the truth is, he just botched it from the beginning. He should have let these guys go in and take over.

Starting point is 00:31:05 We could have come in, taking Cuba back. Possibly, but these are just, I'm just going through the motives. He, you know, not only do you have those two. A lot of people want him dead. And this is a time when, if you didn't agree with someone, this is the era where you go. Like, going doesn't mean you're going to prison. Like going means you're the big goodbye. So also, Vietnam was ramping up.

Starting point is 00:31:28 like the French were losing in Indochina. The French, you know, Vietnam was a French colony. And so they really were already jockeying for help. So the U.S. sent, under Kennedy, sent like some militaries. Yeah, some advisors. A few of them got killed. And he said, we will not spill any more American blood on my hands to, to what, to help a colonizer, France in Indochina.

Starting point is 00:31:53 So the military industrial complex, that was like strike three. And then he gave it. a speech at the School of the Americas in late 1962, early 63, where he said, not the school of the Americas, American University, where he said, basically, we're going to de-escalate the Cold War. We're going to, like, reach across the aisle to the Russians. You know, let's put ourselves in their shoes for a minute. Let's, like, let's make peace. And so that was the final straw.

Starting point is 00:32:19 So, yeah, he got hit. But so there's a lot more motive for that than the U.S. government wanted to kill Charlie Kirk. I think what we concluded was that in the killing of Charlie Clerk, it was Kirk, it was likely, a lone shooter. A lone shooter that was influenced probably by, it was probably targeted by the CIA, elements of the CIA or the Mossad. They found, they hacked into his, what's going on, dude? I did not say that.

Starting point is 00:32:52 No, you said that. I said that's possible. So I believe that it's possible. We talked about how you could be radicalized. Right. He was radicalized. But I think he could have definitely been right within, but it's a 90-day period. Right.

Starting point is 00:33:05 And we talked about how that would be possible, how the NSA or how that's very possible. Like, is that a, is that a possibility? It is a more, it is a stronger possibility in my mind that that was possible than it was that. That somebody actually came to him and turned him and. Yeah. Or even that there was another. shoot. I'm not saying there wasn't. There may have been another shooter. You kind of pooped that idea. You were like, I don't see that. But I'm saying it's so hard now. If you were going to radicalize someone and they should, because let's face it, when we talk about this on the show where we talk about how you could basically pull people and then you could focus in on them and then have, it couldn't have just been, let's say, one person. There may have been doing this to 12 people. But Tyler Robinson is the guy that showed up.

Starting point is 00:33:49 Right. At that point, we've got a guy that showed up and he's on the roof. At that point, you could have another shooter. because we still don't know that this guy's going to be able to take him out. Then you might want another shooter just to make sure. Oh, we already have our patsy. He's in the building. He's got a weapon. We know the weapon. Let's go ahead and take a shot.

Starting point is 00:34:06 And even if he's getting, climbing through the window when they hear, he hears the snap and he knows that he's been shot, he's already fucked. He can bolt and run and say, no, no, you don't understand. I was going to do it, but I didn't do it. Somebody else. It's too late. You're done. It's over. There's too much.

Starting point is 00:34:23 But even, and I, we read the text threads, the whole thing, we talked about his furry partner. It's very weird. You know, the text, I get that it looks very suspicious. I just think a second shooter, just with cameras now, I just think it would be incredibly, incredibly difficult, not impossible, but when you brought up the, the idea of the NSA, you know, combined with elements of the intelligence agencies that I mentioned, just honing in on people, radicalized, honing in on people that had these characteristics. right. They hated Charlie Kirk. They lived in this area where he was going to be on his his tour for TPUSA.

Starting point is 00:35:01 And it just happened to be that one. If it wasn't that one, it might have been the next one. Right, right. Found the guys who liked guns, who owned guns, who could shoot, who could shoot. They have all of our information. Yeah. You know, we know this. You know this. If you bring something up with your cell phone around and then you see advertisements for it. Like they're watching every, they can find information, all of the information on anybody. basically. Yeah, if Amazon and Google can do it, then the government's going to. The NSA can do it. And not just, here's the whole thing. It doesn't even have to be the NSA. I was using them as an example. This is their capability. We don't know that, you don't know that Israel doesn't have the exact same capability. You don't know that Germany does it. You don't know that Russia

Starting point is 00:35:41 does. You don't know. We're saying, oh, no, they can, we know they can do this because we see them targeting us with ads. Okay, that's surface level shit. These other, these other countries, who knows what North Korea could do? Who knows what, what, what, what, they can do. These guys are stealing a billion dollars in crypto every single year to fund, and we can't even stop them. If you, if we can't stop theft, you can't stop the collecting of information. And it's all out there. Yeah. I brought up, people think it's Israel because they just look at the motive. Like who when a guy like this goes, who stands to gain and why? And we talk about that too. Yeah, we do talk about that because I was saying that the idea that our

Starting point is 00:36:23 largest, one of our oldest and best allies in the Middle East would go and target and kill an American citizen seems unfathomable to me. But then you brought up all of these times where all the money that they've put behind him. And all of the times that Israel has done stuff that has been contrary to their relationship with the United States government. And, you know, although I don't know that those were the murders of U.S. citizens, but then again, I don't know that they have to be involved at all. If they can simply pull the information and radicalize an American citizen, then we'd have to be involved at all. Right. You know, so. I know. I know. It's almost like the perfect hit. I mean, you, you obviously, they lucked out if there is a group that radicalized

Starting point is 00:37:10 Tyler Robinson, right, and guys like him, but then got this guy. I mean, that is a perfect hit. It's like the real-life Manchurian candidate. You're brainwashing somebody. You're getting into his head. You're finding him without ever physically reaching out to him or, you know, reaching out to him on Discord. You're just finding him online through all of the digital information that he provides by the, you know, looking up hunting rifles and playing violent video games and leaving comments on Charlie Kirk's video like, how dare this guy say this about my trans girlfriend, boyfriend, whatever, you know what I mean? They target all that.

Starting point is 00:37:48 And then they just, they put poison in your head by just targeting your algorithm. them and you get madder and matter and matter and fuck you and this guy's got to go you know it wouldn't have to be one it wouldn't have to be just keep on it doesn't have to mean it's not just him it doesn't have to be just like hey we got this one guy you know we're working on 12 of them yeah that can all take the hit here we got another 14 over here at this at his next place we got another 17 that are going to be at his next at his next speak yeah he had like he had like a 30 city tour yeah one of these guys is going to knock them off right and sure enough that's what i was Joe, I'm saying, wouldn't it be amazing if like three of them showed up with backpacks and

Starting point is 00:38:24 Gus like, what are you doing here? Why? Who are you? Yeah. Hey, I got here first, dude. Two guys, there were two other guys driving around the parking lot looking for a parking his place. He just happened to be there first.

Starting point is 00:38:37 Oh, fuck. There's no fucking parking. I knew we should have taken. I knew we should have left earlier. You see him walking out there. Oh, shit. Yeah. Started running in the other back to his car.

Starting point is 00:38:49 Yeah. And then, I mean, the Timothy McGreg. is just Timothy McVeigh is that that was that's in a that's super super fascinating fascinating. Fascinating. And for me especially being a 90s kid like born in the 80s, but that was one of the first, that was one of the first like terrorist acts that I remember watching on the news. And I was thinking, God, that is like the most horrendous thing I've ever seen in my life. And it was, you know, a bunch of kids got killed, a bunch of people were murdered.

Starting point is 00:39:17 ATF agents. Because remember, this is the federal building in Oklahoma. Oh, yeah, yeah. They were all received a page, because this is Beeper era, they all received the same beep early in the morning before they were scheduled to go into work saying, hey, do not come into work this morning. We'll meet after lunch. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:39:36 They had a meeting they were all supposed to be at in the morning, and they said they had pushed off the meeting. Don't come until like after 12 or something. Well, I mean, McFay blows the whole fucking building. Yeah, at night of the morning. Fascinating how that happens. We found no explanation. Right. Well, the meeting got pushed back. It's just coincidence. So the other thing we, there was a bunch of stuff, just doing the research, we didn't even know.

Starting point is 00:40:00 What's the story behind the page? Just a coincidence or is there a conspiracy? Oh, no, the guy just pushed back the meeting. But who's the guy? Like, that guy should be made to give an explanation. He probably had an explanation. He probably would be like, I mean, I just decided, I'm the supervisor. I decided to come in late. Like I decided they're just. I had a dental appointment. Yeah. But here's the thing. If you're a supervisor, you're a supervisor. Have you ever run a company?

Starting point is 00:40:22 If you run a... Or you ever work for a company? Not really. This is a bad question. But neither of us have had jobs. Have you had a real job? Of course, I have a real job? I was an insurance adjuster for two different companies.

Starting point is 00:40:32 Have you had a boss before? Yeah, of course. So when the boss has... When the boss has... Say he's got... He's got to take his kids to the doctor in the morning, right? Does he call his business and say, hey, none of you come in because I'm not available?

Starting point is 00:40:46 No, that's what we have. We talked about. You're still going to work. You've still got shit to do. Yeah. ATF department. Don't come in. Do not come in before noon. What? But I got like leads to follow up. Motherfucker. Don't come in. Don't come in. Um, the, anyway, the McVeigh thing, there was, it's funny because I always knew, here's what I knew about Timothy McVeigh was that he was someone that was had dropped out of the military.

Starting point is 00:41:12 He was deeply unhappy about Ruby Ridge and the, um, Oweco, uh, Waco, uh, Waco, Texas. The Waco Siege, the Waco Seed, Branch DeVellion. Massacre, really. So he was very upset about that. And that he, with a couple other guys, turns out of just one main guy, the other guy kind of dropped out, put together a bomb in a, was it a rider truck or something, U-Haul, whatever, drove, found a building, drove to it, parked the truck in front of the building, and set it off because he was upset because he was trying to blow up the ATF building or where the ATF was. I did know that because they made a big deal about this was that the day before he realized that there was a daycare in the building. Because I never forget him saying, well, that's just collateral damage. And that he just shrugged it off.

Starting point is 00:42:05 And I know that he next morning pulled the truck up to the building, got out, lit a fuse or whatever it was. And then left. And then as he's walking down the street, boom, the building blow up. It collapsed. Part of it collapsed. that was really, and I knew also that he was the first person to be placed on death row for that. Federal death row that they had just reinstated federal lethal injection, and he was the first person to get it. But during the research, suddenly there was an entirely different line of still saying he did it, but why he did it.

Starting point is 00:42:46 And things that he had said that I'd never heard of. First time I'd ever heard the term sheep dipping. Suddenly, he was getting all kinds of additional help. He was in communication with a bunch of other people. There were that the, at the last minute, he was, the target got changed. Like, there were all of these things that suddenly didn't make sense. And the other thing was the people that he was in communication with, that McVeigh, they truly believed that he was not going. going to be executed.

Starting point is 00:43:18 Right. I mean, even when he was in the chair, he was totally calm. He was totally fine. He expected that he was going to be whisked away at any minute because he believed he had been working for the federal government as an agent. And we also talked about the Turner Diaries. It's a whole thing that was like researching it. The more I researched it, more I started going, wow, this is insane.

Starting point is 00:43:43 It's insane. I told my parents, I spoke to him after we did that episode, and they go, well, he was the lone, you know, because my parents are credulous fucking boomer idiots. They're, love you, mom. Because apparently they don't watch your channel. So they were like, oh, yeah, he acted alone. You know, well, who was his Cody, the guy that, yeah, his longtime friend from the military, Terry Nichols. So that's the official story, is that Terry Nichols, he helped. source the bomb material for with Timothy McVeigh.

Starting point is 00:44:17 Right. But then he chose to not go to Oklahoma City. He dropped out. He said, I don't want to do this. But he helped make the bombs. Right. And he knew it was going to happen. He told nobody.

Starting point is 00:44:28 But what history is just kind of, I guess, swept under the rug is that, no, there was actually a second person, not Terry Nichols, but a second unidentified person in that rider truck. There's scores of witnesses. There's 27 people at three different locations that saw McVeigh with another, including renting the truck. That's right, at the rider truck price. And they gave everybody kind of gave the same description. You know, he had darker features, curly hair, baseball cap pulled down.

Starting point is 00:45:01 But not only that, the FBI admitted it. Oh, yeah, yeah. That they got camera, they got video footage. They got CTV footage of him getting out of the rider's. truck after Timothy McVeigh parks it in front of the building. And they lost the footage. They lost the footage because if you look at the angle of where the camera was and the footage, it would have shown the other person getting out of the vehicle.

Starting point is 00:45:25 Right. So the other thing is it's not like it's, oh, this is a theory that people are running with. No, no. For three days after the, or sorry, for two days after the Oklahoma City bombing, they, every FBI. It was all over the news. It was all over the, I think it was three days. because even once he was caught, they were saying, we've got the one suspect.

Starting point is 00:45:47 We're still looking for the second suspect. Janet Reno is up there saying, listen, yes, we have Timothy McBay. We're still looking for the second suspect. And they had a composite photo of him and the whole thing. And then like three, four days later, they came back and said, no, there is no second suspect. We interviewed the people at the rider truck. We interviewed all these other people. And they're misremembering who rented the truck.

Starting point is 00:46:15 Misremembering. Oh, yeah, that whole, that whole ass human being that we told you in detail, you described him that you made a sketch of. Yeah, no, that was, I was on acid. I was out of it on a pey trip. Yeah, 27 different people misremembered. And the footage. Oh, God.

Starting point is 00:46:34 They lost it. We lost it. Lost that footage. Yeah, Tracy, she's the one in charge of the footage at the FBI building. She's new. We were kind of training her up and she dragged it to the trash. And we told her, never empty the trash, but she emptied the trash. And then she dropped the, then she pulled the hard drive out of the computer and dropped it in the fucking toilet.

Starting point is 00:46:54 Like, what's cool? Like, how did you lose? She put it, she, she did whatever it is. She dropped it in acid. Yeah. So. Well, did you guys talk about the real reasoning behind? Yes.

Starting point is 00:47:05 Well, the motives. Remember, weren't you locked up with somebody who knew the real reasoning? Oh. So have you, you were locked out. Like, you understand there's a lot of mental illness in prisons. Yeah. Okay. So I always joke because there was a guy that I worked in the library for about maybe a year, 18 months. And there was a library in there. The guy he'd been there for years. And we used to talk, white guy, you used to talk to him all the time. And I mean, we're talking, you know, you have those. You're there for six, eight hours, right? You're talking. You got nothing. It's a library. It's a library. It's, yeah. There's nothing to do, right? And so we would sit there and talk and talk, and I had talked to this guy on and off for six months about all kinds of stuff. Movies, did you see the movie, this, all kinds of stuff.

Starting point is 00:47:50 And one day I had seen a documentary where they had interviewed Timothy McVeigh, but they actually had like an, it wasn't, it was, this was, and this was 15 years ago. So it's, they had a guy that looked, it was a reenactment that looked a lot like Timothy McVeigh. They dressed him up and everything. So they had him as Timothy McVey. But it was interesting because it was an interview with Timothy McVey. And I had watched it the night before. And so like that morning or that day I came in. I was talking.

Starting point is 00:48:23 I said, you know, it's interesting. I said, hey, you know what? I said, have you ever seen? I said, I watched this interview the other night. And I'm pretty sure this is how it came up where I mentioned. And the reason I'm remembering is because I came across it on YouTube, by the way. I remember this is, I think this is the reason I talked to this guy about. So I said to him, hey, bro, I like, hey, I watched this thing on Timothy May Bay last night.

Starting point is 00:48:43 I go, fucking, it was so, it was so interesting. And I, and before I could say much more, he went and he just looked at me and I was like, well, what's up? And he goes, you know that's my case, right? And I go, what? He's, that's my case. And I remember that this guy's case was like out of like Atlanta, Georgia or something. It wasn't, I don't know where exactly, but it wasn't Oklahoma City. It was like Atlanta or something.

Starting point is 00:49:11 And I'm like, oh, how's it, you're involved with like Timothy May? I understand. He's like, no. But he said, the government, I had filed, he filed a 22-50, you know, whatever, he filed his appeal. And then it's 22-55. And then I ordered all of my discovery.

Starting point is 00:49:31 He said, and they had housed, they were housing my, all of my discovery in the, in the Oklahoma city building, what was it called? The Murrow building. In the Murrow building. They were housing all of my evidence in the Murrow building. And he said, and he said, as soon as the, as soon as the motion went through where they had to give it to me, he said, the building was bombed. He said, he said, and I went, what, I don't know, they destroyed, you think they destroyed

Starting point is 00:49:59 the building so that they didn't have to give you the evidence in your case? He is, that's right, because they want to keep me in prison for 30 years, the whole 30 years. He said, they knew I had him. They knew. He went, started going insane. Keep in mind that the evidence in a federal, in federal cases is housed in the, it's either housed in the agency storage or the U.S. attorney storage in the district you're being prosecuted. He's prosecuted out of. He's prosecuted out of like Atlanta.

Starting point is 00:50:33 And I, and this was Oklahoma. And I went, well, but you were prosecuted out of Atlanta. And I don't know, it might have been Florida. Whatever it was, it wasn't Oklahoma. And he goes, that's the whole thing. That's the whole thing. Why was it there? Why was it in that building?

Starting point is 00:50:49 And I'm sitting there looking at him thinking, oh, wow, you've been crazy the whole time. Like, six months. I, I, wow. And listen, ever since then, and then it got to the point where he was like, did someone ask you to talk to me about this? And it was like, oh, now. you're, now you're getting paranoid. And now you're backing away a little bit.

Starting point is 00:51:08 I'm like, no, I was just talking about the thing. Yeah, your voice gets lighter. It's cool, man. It's cool. And I knew right then, I remember I went back and I was like telling like, forget who was telling us, telling somebody. I was like, this dude's fucking, we got to run this guy off. No, oh, listen, I've had, I, I, there was a Mexican guy one time that everybody

Starting point is 00:51:28 talked to, they used to say he was crazy, it was crazy. It was the same thing. They said, they used to talk to him all the time. And then one day he started talking. about how the government was tracking him everywhere he went. And it, from, no, from the satellites. They were watching him everywhere he went on the, and it was like, just him? You're like, you load, like, you load trucks with, with product from, you know, from Mexico.

Starting point is 00:51:55 Like, you're a grunt. Right, right, right, right. You think the government's tracking you with satellites while you're, you're, trying to say maybe they're tracking all of us by satellite. No, no, he thought it was just him, because you'd be talking. talking to him, he'd look up, he'd say, let's get under the cover here. And you'd go under, under the over thing? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, let's go under it. And you go, oh, my God, you're fucking crazy. That's wild. That's what's amazing about a lot of people, especially in prison,

Starting point is 00:52:22 you can talk to someone for a long period of time and not realize they have some psychological problem. When you find out somebody's crazy, it's a terrifying. Oh, yeah, I could never talk to that guy again. Every time I talked to the guy in the library again, it was always, you're scared. You're like, you're insane. You could snap in a minute. How are you feeling today, buddy? Everything okay? And then anything he did, if it was slightly off, I immediately connected it with, he's insane. It's not insane. He's hungry or he's, who knows. Now, that is insane to think that your case is. They blew up a whole building. They killed 120 something, 120 something people to keep from giving However, Matt, lest we not forget what other files were housed in the Murr Building,

Starting point is 00:53:08 files from the Clinton era when he was governor. Watergate. It was called Watergate. Wow, that was called Watergate? Well, that's what they were calling at Water. It was the white, it was the, I forget what they called it, but that's what they were calling at Watergate. Right.

Starting point is 00:53:24 They throw gate on any kind of cover up. Yes. Yes. So when Clinton was governor of Arkansas in the 80s, right? He and Hillary, obviously been dirty from the beginning. They basically greenlit a whole real estate development plan that turned out to be a gigantic Ponzi. Tons of people lost money. It failed.

Starting point is 00:53:49 It failed. We don't know what. But why if it failed, but people went to prison for it. Yes. Like, that's what I mean. So why would there be a whole ass file with the Clinton's name on it? housed in the Murrah building out of the state. So I just thought that was, you know.

Starting point is 00:54:07 He was governor of Oklahoma. I mean, I mean, Arkansas. I'm sorry, Arkansas. Yeah, Arkansas. So why would that? Why would it? Maybe the guy that was talking on that. Maybe he was crazy.

Starting point is 00:54:21 Maybe he wasn't so crazy. The other thing was. Listen, there was all. And so those files got destroyed. Hey, there was tons of stuff. In 94, that's when the bomb went off, 94, 95. Did they not have digital then? Like, files still weren't stored digitally in the federal system?

Starting point is 00:54:37 You would think they would have microfish at least. They would have some kind of copy. By 95, right? Some kind of, well, they would have some kind of system. That's assuming it's true. You know, a lot of these guys are, a lot of this stuff gets regurgitated over and over again and repeated. And before you know it, it's like, you know, like legitimate people are saying it. And you just assume, oh, wow, this person's saying it.

Starting point is 00:54:59 Right. Janet Reno said there's a second suspect, and you just presume 100% is true. But it was actually misremembered. So maybe it's not. That's the kind of government, we'll call it gaslighting. They didn't call it that back then. But that's the kind of Orwellian propaganda that he was talking about in the 40s, right, when he wrote 1984. He said, the government wants you to deny what your eyes see.

Starting point is 00:55:25 I'm misquoting it. But deny the highest command is to do. deny what you see with your eyes, what you hear. It's like, yeah, no, no, no, I know you, I know you saw him, but it was a mistake. You didn't see him. That is the kind of shit. That's like at the height of an abusive boyfriend when he's like, no, no, no, baby. I know you walked in on me, smashing another chick, Dick Rock Hard, but you're, you're crazy.

Starting point is 00:55:52 You didn't see that. You're going to believe me or you're lying eyes. Exactly. So it's like, that's what, like, baby, baby, it's like the Eddie Murphy joke. Yeah, I fucked her. A fuck to. Yes, I fucked her. I'll make love to you.

Starting point is 00:56:08 It's, uh, it's so, so, I mean, that was, buckle up. That's a great episode. They're all very good episodes. Yeah. No, no, they're very excited for this show. What was the, I was trying to, I've seen you get progressively. The Ripper was, Ripper is, is, is lunch. I love the Ripper.

Starting point is 00:56:26 You could, Ripper. like pizza. You can have the Ripper anytime and it's good. Right? The Rippy. Right. Yeah. So, yeah, so we're, uh, we're gonna, we're doing a, uh, a second venture. Can I go pee real quick? Yeah. Cool. You know what I was thinking of in the pisser, Matt? I was thinking about conspiracies and you and you generally tend to shy away from them. You're a very smart guy. You're very logical guy, you like to dismiss a lot of, well, conspiracies, conspiring. You say, yeah, it doesn't really make sense. It's a lawyer brain. Remind me my dad a lot. People with those kind of brains generally don't have massive success in an entrepreneurial activity,

Starting point is 00:57:18 in my opinion. And do you know why? Why? It's because to be an entrepreneur, to be your own boss, to be a business man, you have to be a little delusional. You have to say, all I have is myself and, like, this is going to work, and there's no reason it should work. There's no reason I should be making a living talking to people about crime. There's no. There's no reason. Anybody should be watching this.

Starting point is 00:57:42 This should not be successful. No, there's people shouldn't be paying me. Sponsors should be paying me. Money. I mean, it's, if I showed you the comments, and this morning, I'm probably looking at 150 comments. And I mean, but probably similar to mine. 70 to 80% of them are,

Starting point is 00:57:57 bro, keep going. You're so inspiring. I appreciate everything you're doing. Man, I mean, just on. And I'm just like,

Starting point is 00:58:04 this is, like, I absolutely do not deserve these people's affection. Right. You know what I'm saying? I'm like, I'm just making videos.

Starting point is 00:58:14 I'm just talking. I'm just having fun. I'm enjoying my life. And these people act like I've changed their life. And, you know, so I'm appreciative of that, but I feel like I feel like I don't deserve that. Does that make sense? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:58:28 You know what it is? It's Zach. It's like Zach. My buddy Zach keeps getting out and committing crimes and going back to prison. Even though we set him up with a YouTube channel, his channel was monetized within a month and immediately making him money. All you had to do is keep doing this. Yeah. This was not hard.

Starting point is 00:58:52 He was making one video a week. Right. That's all you had to do. And he just couldn't do it. He would rather go out and do some kind of fraud. And it's like, you understand in six months, this will pay your bills. In a year from now, you can get a new car. You can start doing it.

Starting point is 00:59:07 And two years from now, you can get, you can actually, you can start, this is your full-time, good job. Yeah. And I think it's because in his heart, he doesn't believe he deserves it. And I kind of feel like. When I read these comments, I feel like it, I don't deserve this. Does that make sense? Yeah. I mean, I know that's not, that's too serious for this conversation.

Starting point is 00:59:30 No, I feel the same way when I read my comments. It's, you suck, you fucking, who the fuck is this fraud? This person's cap and I'm like, I don't deserve this. I deserve adelaation and love. I'm fucking great at this. You fucking mongrel's. The effort I put in to fucking, the effort I put in to please you fucking serfs. You show it to your girlfriend.

Starting point is 00:59:54 She's like, yeah. Yeah. No, that's all tracks. I see this. I see that. Maybe I'm the one that's not self-aware, you know? But, no, it's just interesting. And I make that correlation because, you know, to believe that nefarious characters,

Starting point is 01:00:10 bad actors, whether that's part of a government or, yeah, the police, a higher authority that has inside information to. You have to stretch your mind a little bit. Be a little delusional to think, yeah, they could go do this. They could kill an American citizen. They could kill an American president. Yes, they were bad. Just because they make the rules doesn't mean they follow their own rules.

Starting point is 01:00:37 So I just thought that was interesting. Why come they never catch these groups of people? Never catch these groups of conspirators. It's always they're just that good that it just never, it never, it never, it never leads back to them. Well, state spying and Sudderfuge and this kind of state craft has been...

Starting point is 01:00:57 Isn't it subterfuge? It might be subterfuge. Okay. Yeah. So that's been... It's not quite like album. I feel like I'm saying album correctly. Dog. Yeah, you are.

Starting point is 01:01:11 You know what? You're right. I feel like your wife. Yeah. Whatever you want, honey. Album. Comment. Comment below. Yeah, it's, had there never been any murder conspiracy, government conspiracies that have been caught? Of course they have.

Starting point is 01:01:32 The plane that was flying CIA cocaine from Nicaragua back to the United States shot down, right? Like, they discovered all of these different links. Oh, you know what? The selling the Iran Contra. What was it? Fast and Furious. Fast and Furious. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:01:51 So, you know, these aren't quite murder conspiracies, but they're examples in history, recent history. I think CIA's spent since the end of the World War II, they've spent their whole lives figuring out how to make deniability, make that a moat of plausible deniability around them, right? Like, they don't do the work themselves. They subcontract it to people, that are being subcontracted, and they don't know who they're working for, right?

Starting point is 01:02:23 It's the cell structure. It's like drug trafficking now. Like, you don't even know, I don't even know this person that I'm getting this load from, and my only function is to get the fuel to the drugboats, or my only function is to drive this semi-truck across the border, or whatever it is. So I always love the one where they drive to Mexico. They leave the car and the keys, and they go in the hotel, hang out for three days, and when the car's there again, drive it back.

Starting point is 01:02:51 You don't know who picked it up. You don't know what's in the car. You don't know. All I know is I got my keys. I go and I pick up the car and I drive it back across. I don't know if it's packed with marijuana or it's back with. Yeah. Yeah, and if you're a drug mule, you should not want to know.

Starting point is 01:03:06 I would want it to me. I'd be like if they said, oh, it's going to be, it's, it's, but it's 600 pounds of f*** and all. I'd be like, I don't fix it. And how much am I getting 700 American dollars? No. Right. But the reason that you don't want to know is because it's going to affect how you behave when you're talking to the customs. When you're trying to make across the border.

Starting point is 01:03:25 I'd be solidly. I could be terrified, nervous, everything. Nobody has any. I act just as... Dude, I was coming back with a bunch of Viagra from Tijuana one time, crossing back into California. This is back when you had to go down there to get your dick pills. It's not like hymns now. You just order it at your door before you've even done, you know, paying.

Starting point is 01:03:45 And so we went down there. We got a shitload of dick pills, right? And they're just, I'm just, we just put them in a box in the back seat. We didn't even cover it with a towel, didn't even try, you know. And I'm not saying this was like illegal, but it definitely looked like it wasn't for personal use. Hint, it was. Our dicks are just that shitty and non-working. But those are the buddy of mine who's also addicted to dick pills.

Starting point is 01:04:11 So we're going through, I had century past, we're going through the, we're going through customs. get up to the window. Sir, are you bringing anything back? Any medicine? Anything like that? Nope. Like, dude, after we pulled away, my buddy goes,

Starting point is 01:04:28 bro, I believed you. I believed you. I was like, I believe myself. It was so smooth. So you think you could do that with 600 pounds of f***? Well, first of all, it's not going to be 600 pounds of f***.

Starting point is 01:04:39 You can't fit that in a Toyota Corolla, but I think that I've, that the FBI and Secret Service, said that when they talked to, anytime I went in the bank, like I had one time, I've told the story a thousand times, but the quick version is I cash to check for like $29,000 in cash. And they, you know, usually you're walking and getting, I'm getting $6,000, $8,000. You know, I'm trying to get it all in cash and move on. One time I, the only time I ever did it was I went and I said, yeah, I need $29,000 in cash.

Starting point is 01:05:09 And they gave me such a hard fucking time. and when they interviewed that guy, they were like, he was totally calm. Like he was, he never got upset. He never, he's like most of the time when we question people, they say, oh, I'm okay. I'll just take my stuff. And then they leave.

Starting point is 01:05:28 He was like, no, no, no, well, how long do I have to wait? Well, I don't understand. Right. He answered the questions. He asked me for a diet. Do you have a diet Coke? If I have to wait, can I get a Diet Coke or something? Right.

Starting point is 01:05:36 He was like, and that's happened multiple times. I've gone to closings where they're like, they question me. And they were like, he was totally fine. He's asking for this, is this, he's waiting. He's like, he's not, you know. So are you naturally able to do that, or was there something you channeled where you like? I got arrest. I got handcuffed in the police.

Starting point is 01:05:54 In the bank one time brought into an office. And by two sheriff's deputies, a detective came, questioned me for me and got me on the phone with Wakobia's head of security and had an argument through the detective the whole time. Right. They said, this guy never batted an eye. Never once did we think he was. They thought I was so not involved. They let me go to the police station, fell out a police report, and leave. And I did.

Starting point is 01:06:22 I drove there, filled it out, came left. So, but is there some kind of self-talk you have to give yourself, or did you have to train yourself to be able to remain that calm? Or is that just part of your constitution? No, I think I'm an astronaut. You're just, you're fucking super calm. Yeah, I'm just, I'm just, I don't lose it. I don't get, you know, unless I get. excited about something, but I could, if you said, hey, tone it down, I could drop it right back down.

Starting point is 01:06:45 But sometimes if I start talking about fraud, you can see me get excited. We start talking about it. I'm like, I get real, you know, like five cups of coffee in. Right. And but if you were like, hey, hey, calm down. I'd be like, if I knew that it was not to my benefit to get excited, right? Then it would just be like. Hmm.

Starting point is 01:07:04 So you just. Yeah. Even though inside, I'm knowing. So. know this has got to work out so so when you're in the bank like that handcuffed or you're at the police station are you is your heart racing yeah i'm thinking to myself yeah yeah i feel like like this is got to fucking work out like i'm going to prison usually that physically manifest somehow according to everybody that's ever been interviewed they were like they were like he was totally

Starting point is 01:07:33 calm like i wouldn't have thought like typically people get nervous they look around they get fidgety this guy's oh yeah when they raided my house they didn't even find any work. They found a ton of money, which was my bad for, I was just slipping, right? They didn't find, you know, I could have probably beat the,

Starting point is 01:07:52 I don't know if I could have beat the case. I would have ended up doing some time anyways because I went out of parole violation or a probation violation, but I, my entire mouth was like shut from cotton mouth. Right. I was so scared. I was so scared.

Starting point is 01:08:06 The only time I felt that kind of fear was when I did stand-up comedy for the first time. Just couldn't get... That has to be fucking terrifying. Couldn't get the words like just entire throat seized up, part just boom. Just like sweating. Like head feels like it's in a vice grip. It was, yeah, it was wild.

Starting point is 01:08:27 So, you know, what is it? Is it kill Tony? What's the one where they make the people coming on do like a... Yeah, do a minute. Yeah, that's kill Tony. Yeah. So I was, this is five years ago. I went to...

Starting point is 01:08:40 I actually went to L.A. And I had like three or four podcasts set up. One was soft white underbelly. One was Big Herk. One was, what were the comedian? The red. Brian Redband? Yeah, Red Band.

Starting point is 01:08:58 He's a producer and co-creator of Kiltoni. No, no, yeah, because that's how I was supposed to go on, Kill Tony. But, no, there was another one he had with two comedians. One was a fat guy with red hair, and then the other one was a big black guy. That's my boy, David Lucas and William Montgomery. It was a friend of mine. Yeah, I've met, I mean, I've met him because he's gone on a Danny show. So they had me on there, too.

Starting point is 01:09:21 So it was that one. And then the other one was Jordan Belfort, but at the last minute, he just stood me up. I've been going back and forth with his person that was arranging it. And the last minute, it was, I was like, hey, here's what I'm going to be there. What's the address? What time do you want me there? never responded again. Wow.

Starting point is 01:09:39 So anyway, I fly in. Oh, and the other one, when I got there, it was, they said, we're going to have you on Kill Tony. Right. And so Tyler was the one who's setting up because he knows Red Band. Yeah, Brian Redband. So he knew him, and he's like, listen, you go. He said, so start thinking about what you're going to do.

Starting point is 01:09:56 And I go, what do you mean? I'm going to be interviewed. Like, I'd never seen the show. He's like, no, no, no, you're going to have to do a one minute guess. Oh, fuck, dude. And I went, what? You got to be fucking kidding. This is like two, like I just landed there.

Starting point is 01:10:09 Yeah. That night. And so I had, it was like, I had like a day and a half. I had, it was a day and a half later. And I was like, well, what do you mean? And he's like, yeah, yeah, he explained it. And I went, he said, yeah, you could do it. It's not a big deal.

Starting point is 01:10:20 No, no, no, no. So you don't understand. It's not. They go, no, you're super funny. No, no. My, my funniness is based on me telling a longer version of a story with a kind of a, you know, at the end, it's a punchline. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:10:35 You have one minute is a very short amount of time. Oh my God. It's so hard to be funny in one minute. That's what I'm saying. I'm like, even for professional comedians. That's what I'm saying. Matter of fact, did you ever see?

Starting point is 01:10:44 I've mentioned this a few times. Barbara Walters was interviewed. Have I told you this? So Barbara Walters was interviewed one time. You know Barbara Walters. Yeah. Well, I mean, how young do you think I am? Look what I'm dealing with.

Starting point is 01:10:55 That's true. Look what I'm dealing with. Yeah. So, so she was interviewed during one of her final, like she was, I don't know, she was retiring or they just interviewed her. I always thought she was retired. But so they interviewed her. And she says this so fast, I feel like it was almost so rigged, like she knew what the questions were coming.

Starting point is 01:11:14 The woman, the person interviewing her said, you know, Barbara, she says, what are some of the, what are the smartest people you've ever interviewed? And she was comedians. And she went, what? She was comedian. She's, you've interviewed politicians, lawyers, scientists. She said, yeah, but comedians, you have to be very smart. to be able to come up with the comebacks and the responses as quickly as they are. She says, I've never walked away from an interview with a comedian and thought he was a stupid person.

Starting point is 01:11:47 She said, I can tell you, she said, I've interviewed some lawyers and politicians. I've walked away and thought, this is not a smart person. Oh, yeah. That's like almost exclusively. Right. Yeah. And I've, based on that interview and then, of course, seeing these, and trying to be funny at a, like that. And like, that's not easy, bro.

Starting point is 01:12:04 So did you do a minute? No. I got lucky. Oh, my gosh. And I had a producer. I was meeting a producer. And he said, look, this is when I can meet and the other producer can meet. And I had to say, I can't go.

Starting point is 01:12:16 And it's killing me, Tyler. I want to go. Right. I was all ready for it. You got your out. So, so thankful that I didn't have to go on it. Because by that point, I'd looked at a few videos. And I'm like, oh, I can't do this.

Starting point is 01:12:30 Yeah. I can't do this. Yeah. Oh, and they would, they're nicer now. to the comedians because it's a much bigger show, but back then they were brutal. Yeah. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:12:38 Yeah. So, no, it's, it's that, people are most terrified of, I think people are more terrified of public speaking. It's like the number one fear. And then it's like being killed in war. Right? So it's like,

Starting point is 01:12:52 and for me it was like being incarcerated, like losing everything. The cops, you know, like I, my body process that is like, oh, you're going to be harmed. You're going to be killed.

Starting point is 01:13:02 Right. That's the reaction. That's like the fighter. The fighter flight adrenaline that I felt when you got arrested. Yeah, when I got arrested when we got raided. I got pulled over a couple times on the trips back with the work, with the load. I managed to keep it a little more cool because I got out of the stops, right? The cops let me go.

Starting point is 01:13:27 But the cops weren't, they pulled me over for a traffic violation. It's not like they were raiding my house because they had proof. that I was trafficking drugs. You know what I mean? You know, a white boy. I'm a nice, I'm a nice, well-dressed white kid. You know. You get the, was it the three C's clean-cut, clean-cut, what is it?

Starting point is 01:13:46 It's clean-cut, charismatic, and Caucasian. So. Yeah. So, um, okay, so you guys, the murder men. Right, the murder men. With yours truly, Johnny Mitchell and Matthew Cox, available on all platforms. obviously. We know what we're doing. We're professionals at this point. Go to the YouTube, subscribe to the YouTube, watch all of the episodes. You're going to be blown away. They're about

Starting point is 01:14:17 an hour, hour and a half in length. So they're perfect to consume like in doubles, right? Right. You watch two of those. That's one Connect episode. So I took it easy on you guys. All right. Go go there. Hit the, go to Spotify. Watch us, stream us on Spotify. I love when people We'll go to Spotify. And of course, follow us on socials. All those links will be in the description of this episode. This is the pitch. I thought we were going to talk about.

Starting point is 01:14:42 We're going to do one episode a week. We're going to do shorts every day, maybe, hopefully. And then- We don't care about that. No? They don't care about our business plan, like our distribution plan. Well, here's what I find. Back to the part of the conversation when you were talking about being delusional as far

Starting point is 01:15:03 as being successful. You have to almost, you have to almost be delusional with you. You are right because every time I'm like, something happens, you're like, I don't know about that episode. I'm like, oh, it's fine. And we're the first few months of the episode. Nobody's going to be watching anyway. I'm like, we'll be lucky to get four or five thousand, you know, views. And you're like, the look on his face is like just, huh?

Starting point is 01:15:25 What? No, no. Assume everyone's watching. We're getting hundreds of them. I'm like, it's a channel with no subscribers. We'll be lucky to get a couple thousand. And you're just like, the. The look of disgust that you gave me was like, I was, I mean, I'm just trying to, I'm just trying to be reasonable.

Starting point is 01:15:40 Like, that seems reasonable. It's a good. See, and once again, like I've said, I didn't have that the meteoric rise that you had. What I had was I'd been doing it two years and then you started producing videos or you came out with the Connect. Right. And then for the next six months in the comment section, all I heard was, how come your videos don't get 400,000 like Johnny Mitchell's. How come Johnny Mitchell is doing so much better?

Starting point is 01:16:08 How come Johnny Mitchell? Johnny Mitchell just got more subscribers than you. And I've been watching you for years. And I was just like, man, fuck Johnny Mitchell. What the fuck are you? And I was like, well, I'm not fucking Johnny. I'm in there like arguing. And I was like, stop doing that.

Starting point is 01:16:20 You were like a stepdad when the kids like, my dad lets me stay up late. You're like, well, not your fucking dad. Exactly. I'm fair fucking your mom. That's about it. Go to your goddamn room. Very upset by those comments.

Starting point is 01:16:32 So anyway, yeah. So, yeah, you're, we have an interesting dynamic because you, yes, you're kind of a, you don't believe in yourself as much as I believe in you, Matt. Oh my God. Okay. So, yeah. So we're very excited for this show. Episodes will drop. We don't fucking know.

Starting point is 01:16:55 What are episodes dropping? Is they better, there's something better drop before we release this thing. I mean, well, I don't know. you guys will approve of this, but I would drop this tomorrow if we're able to. Why? We're not going to be... Listen, I think we're out of episodes. That's why.

Starting point is 01:17:10 He's like, yeah. We got to... Oh, shit. Yeah. So, well, then we got to hurry up and turn around. We're not going to launch until at least a week out. It's going to be another week before we... I can post a stream yard tomorrow.

Starting point is 01:17:22 We do have a stream yard. Like, we haven't posted a stream yard in... Our last stream yard we posted it got 20,000 views. Yeah, they just don't get views. Shit. You get three times as many views on... on a in in per had that guy come in person it would have gotten 60 to 100,000 easy I mean but we can it's fine we're short we can push a stream merge okay so that was John how far out are you

Starting point is 01:17:46 huh John hasn't even touched the phone he's not even paying attention I'm not even close to my no he's got to be at home at the editing it's fine it's got to be at the end we can hold it we can hold it we'll figure it yeah we'll say the channel will suffer we'll try the channel's already up like the yeah the channel's already up like the yeah we're The channel's ready. We do need to get, I need to get everything loaded with Spotify and megaphone, really. We have the TikTok. Do we buy the TikTok?

Starting point is 01:18:15 I all. Not buy the TikTok. Did we get the handle for the TikTok? I can't remember. Whatever. We'll get it. I hold it. Hey, John.

Starting point is 01:18:23 Did we get the TikTok handle? I remember I got the TikTok handle. That's right. So we got the TikTok and the Instagram handle. Right. So all we need to. Spotify. All we need to do is get set up on Spotify

Starting point is 01:18:34 And Apple, whatever, nobody listens to it Apple But yeah, so that's all we need to do So I'll do that this week While John prepares the first episode So if we could hold this We can hold it a week Yeah, yeah, a week or two Because we're getting some episodes

Starting point is 01:18:50 Don't you guys have someone coming in soon? Yeah, yeah, yeah You have Pimp and Ken coming in, right? Who? The black guy, Pimp and Ken? No, is that the Lanna guy? We do have Pippin'Cke. Yeah, you guys have Pimp and Ken coming in

Starting point is 01:19:01 I know because he's, I had him on my show. His episode drops tomorrow when he was doing my shit. He goes, yeah, I'm going to, he's like, I'm going to do Matt Cox, uh, January 26. Yeah. I was like, oh, okay, perfect. Nice. Pimp and Ken. Pimp and Ken.

Starting point is 01:19:16 You're going to love Pimp and Ken. I mean, you're not going to know what to ask him at all. I'm like, dude, listen, knew about you for years. Tell me about the hose you had on the track. Tell me how you break a bitch. Tell me. My God, that's horrible. Yeah, you're not going to, because you don't remember.

Starting point is 01:19:31 like that pimping stuff. Oh, no, that's horrible. I don't like, I don't approve of pimping, but if you're going to do it, do it like pimping can, dude. And he's so, and he's just like, by the end, you're like, I'll sell my pussy for you.

Starting point is 01:19:48 Oh my God. This stays in. All right, Matt, take us home, buddy. Where can they get the murder men? Where can they find it? Hey, you guys, I appreciate you watching. If you want to check out the murder men, You can look in the description box and we're going to have the links to the YouTube, Spotify, TikTok, Instagram, all the media links. Also, if you are interested in being on Inside True Crime, you can go to our website, which will also be in the link.

Starting point is 01:20:19 And you can go to the Be a Guest page, fill out an application, leave a short video, and we will get back to you ASAP. Thank you very much. See you.

Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - The Real Story Behind Famous Government Conspiracies

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