Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - The Rise & Fall of the FBI's Most Wanted Auto Fraudster

Episode Date: May 11, 2024

The Rise & Fall of the FBI's Most Wanted Auto Fraudster

For a limited time at McDonald's, enjoy the tasty breakfast trio. Your choice of chicken or sausage McMuffin or McGrittles with a hash brown and a small iced coffee for $5.00 plus tax. Available until 11 a.m. at participating McDonald's restaurants. Price excludes flavored iced coffee and delivery. Everyone says, check, $250,000 on it. So if you don't have a birth certificate, but you have a baptismal, so I use that to get an ID. So once you have that, you're golden. I mean, you are not to go get a passport, whatever.

I mean, you're basically created a whole brand new person. So I'm shocked how many similarities there are to your story and my story. Yeah. First of all, so when you contacted me, like when we were talking, you were like, well, my dad, you know, he's a good dad. You know, he's kind of con man. So let's start with like your parents, you know, like who are your parents, where you were born, you know, brothers, sisters. And like I'm kind of fascinated by the dad. Yeah, it was interesting because you.

you know, now I realize, and by the way, thanks for having me, appreciate that. Yeah. But now, you know, obviously looking back, you can see things. But when I was in the throes of it, I didn't realize quite what it was because he got dressed, went to work every day, wore suit and tie, you know, did his thing, right? So you just figure, you know, didn't know what he was doing. Later on, kind of figured that out. So basically, I grew up, you know, just out in the suburbs of L.A., you know,

and by 78, we moved into a house that I basically lived in until I graduated high school. And around that same time, they started getting, or he started to get in them. mortgage, doing mortgage loans and stuff. Then my mother got a real estate license. So they both around 78, 79, were basically in that business. And he was going out and, you know, doing mortgage loans, basically mortgage broker, you know, worked for a couple different places, as I remember it. But back in those days, we're talking 78, 79, 80, he would go out at night a lot because to get, you know, the application fill out, you actually has to go to people's homes and get the application filled out, you know, and just writing. So he was gone a lot at night, you know,

and stuff like that. So they were working a lot, you know. So I was, kind of a, what they call it, a Laskey kid or whatever. You know, come over from school, they're out working. Then they started, as in progress, they started making some money, you know, and, you know, we lived a nice house. He started getting decorated, you know, nicer cars. You know, just everything got nicer and better, you know what I mean. So I didn't know what he was doing at that time, if any of it was legit or not legit.

But I also didn't have a really good relationship with him. You know, I mean, he was very like, we'll call it heavy-handed. You know, I mean, he, you know, didn't have a problem with, you know, slapping you around or whatever. And then as I got a little bit older, You know, you could do the math. I realized, well, my mom and dad were both very young when they had been. And then you realized, ooh, you know, one of those kind of kids.

So, you know, it was kind of a contrast of living in a nice house and having decent things, but also living in a war zone, you know what I mean? Because he'd come home sometimes. You didn't know, like, oh, shit, you hear the door shut. Oh, shit. You know, what's going to happen? You know, something left in the sink, you know, some friends over and left the jacket in the living room, you know, that kind of thing.

So it was a little, you know, intimidating. And, you know, of course, somebody that's hitting on you and stuff like that as a kid, you're not really like you and, you know, I think of this is a great guy. So we didn't always have a great relationship, you know, but I had, you know, things, it was like a spoiled kid. You know, I mean, I think they just threw money at it kind of thing. And so when I graduated high school in 84, you know, I enjoyed that summer living at home and then I moved out like March of 85. How old were you? I was, I graduated high school in June of 84, 17. I didn't turn 18 until that September. So by the March of 85, I was out on my own, say 18 and a half years old.

whatever, right? So I was living with some friends. You know, they had a house. Their parents bought another house, but they kept that house. So they were living there, you know, and so I kind of, you know, hung out there for a little while until I find an apartment where I rented a room, things like that. So from 80, let's say, 85 to about 88, I had no contact with my father whatsoever. Once I moved out, it was like, blink you, had nothing to do with him, didn't like him, didn't care for him, you know, didn't want to talk to him, had no association with them, whatsoever. My mom is still talked to, you know, but I always kind of felt like my mom, you know, she could have done more to protect us, you know, because I had a brother. I have a brother that's

five years younger than me. So basically, like I said, my parents, when I was born, my mom just turned 17 in July, I was born in September. So obviously, as I got older than could do the math, I realized, oops, you know, maybe I was an accident and whatever. So as I was growing up and realizing that, I thought, you know, does the guy hate me? Because maybe I ruined his life because, you know, he got my mom pregnant or whatever. So, you know, as a kid, you go through all that. So it was a messed up family life, if you will. But it contrasted with they made some money. So people like, well, they're going to feel sorry for you. You got to steer in your room, TV in your room, all that shit. You know what I mean? So it was weird that way, you know,

but you're getting beat on and that's not fun, you know what I mean? So anyways, when I graduate high school and I could get out, I just got out. Didn't talk to them, didn't do anything for three years, basically. What were you doing for a living? During that time, you know, I was young, construction, stuff like that. I met a girl, you know, girlfriend. I had, her parents had a a construction business basically did a surfacing black tops, striping the lines, parking lots all, everything you see in a parking lot, all the parking lines, all that stuff, they did. So I started working for them, you know, doing that stuff, got an apartment all that. You know, I'm young, 1920, you know, turned 21.

You know, it wasn't making really any money, just struggling. Went to junior college for about a year, blew that off. Yeah, so basically, you know, I was living on my own, had been living on my own for about three years, you know, so I did just turn 21. And my grandparents had moved from Southern California out to Arizona, kind of between Phoenix and Tucson, kind of out in the middle of nowhere at the time. And so I went out there and visited them and, you know, I said, hey, maybe there's something out. It wasn't that far from Tucson, about 20-mile drive from Tucson. So I went out there, hung out with them for a little while and, you know, helped them with some stuff.

And then about a month later I thought, you know, maybe I just go out there because I was floundering in L.A., you know, being a girl broke up, you know, heart broke over that, you know. just trying to find my way. You know, I just turned 21. What am I going to do construction all my life, wanted to business, something like that, you know, sales, whatever. So, you know, I thought maybe I'd get out of L.A. and just whatever, you know, because I was still young. And so my grandparents were out there, so I'd went and visited,

helped them out. Then about a month later, I came back and not really said it, but with an idea, maybe I'll stay, you know, kind of thing, you know what I mean? So then I go out there. I told us I was coming all that. So anyone was coming out. But my dad was out in that area, you know, hanging out, whatever.

I did not know that. So then I'm out there, and they had some people over and stuff. So my dad shows up. So right as he's coming over, he's going to go, yeah, your dad's on his way. I'm like, I hadn't seen this guy talk to him in over three, three and a half years at this point. Had he ever reached out to you? There was one time a roommate of mine said, your dad called. My dad didn't call here.

How did you even get the phone number? I said, no, yeah, your dad called was looking for you. You know, F him. I just never called, never, you know, had no interest in talking to him. So, you know, when I went out to my grandparents' house, I had no idea it was out there. You know, they kind of left that out because I'm sure she could have told me. Maybe her thought was we'll get them together, get talking or something like that. I don't know.

Anyway, so I'm out there. They're having a little party, a little hangout thing. You know, some other family was out there. So he's over there, you know, hey, what's up kind of thing, you know, very just like standoffish. You know, I was like, I really wouldn't get around this guy. But people around, so it wasn't going to blow up anything real serious. You know what I mean? So then, you know, kind of sort of talked a little bit as that afternoon progressed and, you know, whatever.

So he left, I left, whatever. and then a couple days later, because I was staying at my grandparents, he called and said, hey, do you want to meet me over such and such place? We'll get some lunch. All right. So I'll go and we'll have some lunch. A free lunch. Yeah, you know, whatever.

So I get to talking to him. He was a basic con guy. He's a sociopath. He could just be the most wonderful, cool guy to hang out with, you know, bullshit with Mr. Charming, everybody thinks he's great, you know, win you over and then, you know, stab you in the back kind of thing. So he was on that mission, I believe, you know what I mean? So he's like being coy and a few bucks. You know, I had a truck at the time, like Mazda B-2000, whatever trucks were popular at that time.

And I had busted the windshield in it, right? Being fucking stupid. It shouldn't cost so much. I apologize. And so, you know, my windshield was cracked on the passenger side, right? So it goes, well, let me help you get a windshield. So all right, might as well. So then it gives me some money and I go get the windshield figure.

right? So now he started like ingratiating himself, right? So then about a week, I didn't see him to talk to him because I'm still out there. And my grandma said, well, what do you want to do? I said, well, maybe I'll get a job here in Tucson or whatever, get an apartment or whatever. Just trying to figure it out. So then about a week later, he, I think he called. No, he was over there. He came over. I was gone. I came back, you know, from doing whatever I was doing, and he was there. So now it's kind of we're quasi like cool, but, you know, I hadn't forgot about any of the past, but it's just kind of like we're getting along. That went on for like about a month to maybe six weeks, right? And then he says, well, why don't you let me help you get an apartment, right? You want to get out here, figure it out, you know, whatever. So I'm thinking, do I want to do this or not? Where am I going with this relationship with this guy? Because you're still young, and you think it would be nice to have a dad. Yeah.

You know, but I also hated the guy at the same time. So it's that kind of thing. So basically, we started being somewhat buddies, if you will, you know, just getting along, being cordial, what have you, not really bringing up the past. right kind of just looking forward type thing but um you know it's still a little leery right so then he comes up and says um you know do you need some extra money i said well don't really have any money i mean what what angle you do it who says no to that yeah what angle are you getting at you know he goes well you know you got this apartment if you're going to do the construction thing that's

fine but um maybe i can help you make a little extra money you know i mean and he says you know your truck, you wanted to get rid of it, because I also had stopped making the payment on it, because I went out there, it's short of money, so I figured, well, then I've got to find it out here, so I quit making the payment, you know, I mean, so, and I had mentioned that. And so he goes, well, I know how you could get this truck and get some money for it. And I'm like, what he's talking about? So he kind of explains that, you know, he can get, because it had the lien holder on the title, right?

So he had the paperwork to basically remove the lien holder, as if you paid for it, you know, because it was California. I had that car from California. In California, it's called a title holding state. So when you have a car and it's financed, you don't get the title to it. California DMV holds the title. Whenever you pay that off, whoever, you know, Ford Motor Credit, whomever it is, they send you release of lien.

Then you go down to DMV and you get that taken off and then you get a clear free title. Right. Well, in Arizona, they had what's called non-title holding state. And some other states were that way as well. So on that, they send you the title with the drive. Well, it comes in a separate, but when they send the plates like six weeks later, you know, you get the title a couple of days after that. Now, the title is the title of the car, but it still has a lien holder on it, but you have the actual title. So what he had figured out, wherever, however, you figured it out, was you come up with the release of lien.

So he had all the stamps. He had everything, all the paperwork, everything looked legit, and then you could get the release of lien. So he's got a release of lien. You take the release from the, so if you're financed through Bank of America, and it says you owe Bank of America, $10,000 on this and it's on your title. He creates a release of lien, which has got some kind of a stamp to make it look official. You just go downtown or go down to public records or DMV. DMV and say, hey, I pay this off. You show them the release and they issue an entirely new title with no lien on at all. Clare and free. You now own that Clark. Clear and free. They call it

washing the title. Nice. You wash the title clean. Now, he had the paperwork, right? And it all was complete bogus, but it all looked complete legit. So let's say you had Ford Motor Credit. So he would have a release of lien from Fort Motor Credit basically saying, I paid off Ford Motor Credit, whatever I owed him on the car. They give you a release of lien. So he had

that all legit. So you take the release of lien and the title, if it's a non-title holding state, because you have them, both of it's like California where it's a title holding state, you give them that, then they issue and give you what they call it California pink slip. All right. So. Something in Florida. Yeah. You know, and in some

states back then, I don't know how it is now, I don't buy it and sell a lot of cars, but some states would issue the title right there. Some would mail it to you. So, you know, that comes into play a little later on as things get on. So he tells me how to, I can do this and get rid of the car and sell it for what it was worth, maybe than $7,500, you know, whatever the amount was, but I could get, you know, sell it basically and then have the money. Right. So I said, well, that sounds interesting, you know, because it's what it turns out that I later figure out is he is my dad. Sometimes they say the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Well, I do have some of those qualities, whether they're good, bad, most of them are bad. I still possess some of that and have

to fight with that now, even now, you know, even though I have no interest to do anything illegal, even in the relationship. I mean, there's just all kinds of stuff that damages you from a child. You know what I mean? So I go ahead, we do it, right? So get it, get this all done. He walks me through the whole thing, because I really don't know what I'm doing, right? So he walks me through it all. Gets me in there, it tells me what to say and all that stuff, and it works. So then we go, you know, down the street, and we sell it to this used car dealership. It has no questions about it whatsoever. They look at a paper, you know, now they've got a clear free title from DMV.

Zero questions. You're signing this bum boom here. And now I own the car, give you the check, what have you, and you walk out. So it went kind of smooth, and it worked. And I thought, holy, you know, wow. So then, of course, he's working me. what I didn't realize at the time, but he was working me, because I think he had already been doing that. That wasn't obviously his first go-around.

Right. You know what I mean? Yeah, you don't have all that equipment. All of this, unbeknownst to me. And then also one little caveat to the backstory is during that period from 85 to roughly EDA, where I just spoke to him, didn't speak to him at all. He got, he was doing mortgage fraud, basically exactly what he was doing. I don't know. But he got caught up into, like, in the 80s, early.

80s, you know, 83, 84, a lot of cocaine in Southern California. Like, Miami Vice, all that. I mean, California was flooded, L.A. was flooded with Coke. I mean, we were in high school doing coke, you know. Don't condone it, but it just said, well, I was doing. So he got real bad on it, right? So I didn't realize and know all this, but then he got, he went to jail, went to prison in California for whatever fraud that he was doing because my uncle called me and said,

hey, you know, your dad got arrested for fraud. I'm like, fraud, what's he doing fraud? And so I go, well, you know, I didn't like them or anything. Yeah, so I wasn't really all that upset about it, right? So then when we got back together talking and stuff at my grandmothers, you know, a few years later, you know, it didn't really even mention any of that. You didn't talk about it. She just kind of let that lay, you know what I'm saying?

Just knew that that happened. So he had a history of being basically a con man that I didn't realize. I don't know how far back it went. At this moment in time, I did not realize that. Later on, as we get, as it goes through the story, I found out this guy was in general. in prison in California as a youth. They call it California Youth Authority. So it's basically prison, not juvie,

it's prison for underage 18 people. So he was no good from the get-go. You know what I'm saying? I mean, he had a history, but he went to prison as a kid and didn't learn. And now he's back in prison as an adult for basically mortgage bank fraud. What precisely it was, I don't know,

but I'm sure that's what it was in because that's the business he was in. So the guy's just no good, right? But I didn't realize all of his other time. I didn't know any of that stuff because he can be a normal person. You know, he gets up, gets dressed, you know, and he talks to him. Like I was saying earlier, you don't realize what's going on up here, you know what I mean? So he was good at that.

So he had that history. And I knew that at the time when he was helping me do that truck and all that the first time. And I knew in my back of my mind, you know, this is probably not the smartest thing to do. I mean, I knew right from wrong. And obviously, I knew that was wrong. So I'm not trying to be a victim. I was victimized in a way. used and abused in a way, but I also kind of willingly went along with it.

Right. Because another thing he was doing to entice me at 21 years of age was taking me topless bars and just making it rain before that terminology was ever around. It just blowing cash and throwing hundreds into the end. And I thought, wow, this is cool. So he just was reeling me in. You know what I mean? Basically is what he was doing.

So then now that works and the car thing works and I, you know, wouldn't bought another car. But he says, hey, why don't you do this? Why don't we get you another car? but I got a name that you can use and a social security number that you can use and you get a nicer car. Right, doesn't everybody?

Yeah. Right. That's a comment. I said, well, wait a minute. This is starting to work out. You know, I'm helping with apartment. You know, all of a sudden I went from being broke to having a few bucks. But, you know, I came out a big cost, right?

So, okay, let's get a car. All right. So he gives me this name, gives me a social. Dumbies up some, you know, paycheck, pay stubs. You know, we had a phone. You could call, I mean, back in those days, it was so much less technology. Right. You know what I mean?

They would call and verify stuff over there. You could call a bank and say, I got this account number, such and such in a check for $5,000, can they cover it? Can I cash it today? You know, and they would tell you the phone, yeah, there's enough money in that account to cash the check. Right. If you call a bank now and ask me anything like that, they're going to hang up on you, you know, I'm saying?

So it was a different time. We're talking, you know, in the late 80s, much different time. People were more trustworthy, whatever. I'm sorry. Did you, when he gave you the thing. pay stuff and everything. Did you get an ID? He provided, how'd you get the ID? Yeah. He gave me, basically had these, uh, baptismals from like when, uh, Catholics, they get baptized. Yeah. They give you, it's almost like a birth certificate. It could be used as a, it can be used as a

birth certificate. Right. So if you don't have a birth certificate, but you have a baptismal, right. You can use that. I don't know if they still take that stuff now, but back in the day, they did. So I use that to get an ID. Then with that ID, then he had this bogus. I think is what it was with this is he had that name that he got from somebody. So he knew probably back when he had a bunch of files and stuff, he had all these names built up. You know, you might know something about that.

You've come across, he's got access to just tons and tons of names, social security numbers, dates of birth, everything. Yep, yep. So again, I didn't know the whole story then, but I'm assuming that's where that came from. So we were able, with all the paperwork that he had, the baptismals and all that stuff, because what did we do with that? It was funny. Not funny, but anyways, it was like to make him age, because they were, he went to a printer, I'm assuming, and just had him print it up, paid him a few bucks and found some unscrupulous printer or whatever. Somebody wasn't asking questions, and printed up, you know, however many. But they were looking, you know, brand new.

And he had the stamp and everything. And this was actually a real church, because later on, I called, or forget how I looked at yellow pages or whatever, trying to find out, Is this even a legitimate church? And it was, right? But he had, like, the stamp, little seal stamp and all that. So we'd put it, like, out in the sunspray with a little water, put in the oven first thing. Just trying to make it age it, right? Make it look not brand new.

Right. You know what I mean? And you could take that and go to, like, DMV and get a driver's license, right? All right. So I get that name fully legit. But, you know, it took a couple of weeks, but got the driver's license and everything in that name. So then he says, we'll buy you a new car with that. So that's where, you know, he had the, basically had fake companies set up.

up in those days you could do and you can still do it now but it was real popular in those days you know you get a mailbox etc type address and then they would still show as like um you know not a commercial address you could kind of almost get it seemed like a residential address again there's a long time ago technology isn't like it is today underwriting now it could just pull everything up on a screen you know yeah well now i was going to say back then like even when i was doing it initially when i would do it it would take them six months or a year so if i got them like a back then they were mailbox, et cetera. You know, now they're like you've left.

Yeah, right, yeah, the bottom up. But you get the, so you get a real address and then you could even put, you could put apartment number, you know, 105. And then if you went to the bank, like, they had no idea this. They thought it's an apartment. Now, once it had been open a year or two, then they'd type it in and they'd say, this says it's a mailbox receiving station. You know what I'm saying?

But you had a few years before it entered their system. Yeah. So, yeah. So, I mean, I totally get. And then, of course, they would always tell you when you open it. Make sure you put, you know, public mailbox with the number. Don't put, don't put apartment. I put apartment and they'd still deliver.

Well, he knew that scam because, again, I came into this, not knowing any of that stuff, right? So he, you know, schooled me on all that. He did all the paperwork, basically, and then walked me through, what, to say, DMV and blah, blah, blah. So anyways, okay, so we got the driver's license, got, had the social that he had, which I believe was a social, probably some kid, you know, from where we got him. So then, okay, so I'm now legit. This is a legit name, right? I remember the name, Rich Guerrera. I'm thinking, why are you giving me like a Mexican kid name when I look?

You know, white as white can be, right? Right. Whatever. People didn't seem to mind or say anything. So we had that one first name. So I bought a car. And then it was like a Ford Ranger truck or something. Just see, you know, a little beginner car, basically. You could go in in those days.

I'm sure they still do it now. And basically first-time buyer credit, what have you. And, you know, you just show a little income, you know, give them a little bit of down payment. And you walk off with the car. You know what I mean? So I went in and got that. Worked out smoothly. had the car, and I'm driving around the car, had it got insurance for it and all that.

But it was basically bogus. And then he says, well, why don't we do that, what we did with the truck, with this? I'm like, what are you talking about? It was basically the same way we can do it, except it's a little different with this. You bought it in Arizona. The other one was from California. So now I had a car that was bought in Arizona. So then that's how it all started.

So then he goes, well, listen, when they send the license plates, they're also going to send the title. And then you take the title, and I'll show you how we, We can get that same thing in another state, not Arizona, and then you own that car clear and free. So he's like slow walking you through it. Like as like you're going through thinking, hey, cool, I got a car, you know, okay, he fixed this, he fixed that. And then once he gets it, okay, now let's do that. Like knowing, he had to know this, this was part of his plan the whole time. Oh, yeah, yeah.

I mean, I look back on it now and I have throughout, you know, after it all happened, I thought, you know, he was kind of guy that would get people in reel the man however he could, you know what I mean? Because he wanted to see what he could get this other human being to do for him. I fully believe that, you know, it was a sociopathic way. You know, let me see what I can do. So I think it was in his sick mind. It wasn't he needed me because he needed bodies. He got or got anybody to do it because there was other people that got involved as we get into that. I sometimes feel like, you know, and think he's dead now, by the way, too, so that's a great thing. But I think he was just as another payback to me, another blank me you know what I mean right this kid yeah I was this kid who ruined my youth or

whatever you know I don't know exactly but it's just why would you do that to your own kid right I mean if you loved your kid or any care for your kid why would you do that you know I mean knowing what you're doing right because I didn't quite realize what I was doing because I knew it was wrong it was wrong I could have walked away I could have just split never done it again or just never done it that first time say no that's cool I'm not interested in that. I, you know, got the money. Yeah, of course. The money and chicks, you know, topless chicks and money and, you know, being able to do things that I like to do, right? So, and not having money for a while, you know, when you're first living on your own, you know, it was nice to

have a few bucks. So it did it. It worked. It was a good play, right? So now we're into the second car, so to speak, because that first truck of mine, you know, wound up doing selling that, basically fraudulently. So then we're into this whole thing. So basically it's how it laid out. You buy the car. Okay, you get the name all set up, which he had that name already all established and worked out. Okay, it was either going to be used on me or somebody else is what I figure, right? Right. Okay, so now that first name, we used that Rich Guerrera name, because I just remember that one. And I bought that truck. It was like a Ford Ranger. And then six weeks later, almost like clockwork, license plates come in the mail. And then a couple of days after that,

the title comes. So now you've got this new truck. You maybe made one payment because the first payment It may have came around. And we would make a payment or two or three just to keep it cool, you know, because sometimes as it got into it, you know, there was more than one car involved at a time. So you kind of let them marinate, you know, as you're working another name and all that kind of stuff. So this first go-round from start to finish, basically with this first truck was my learning experience, if you will. You know what I mean? So basically you bought the car, like I was saying.

You get the license plate and you get the title about six weeks later. So now you have a car, you got the title. So New Mexico is right next door. Well, it comes to find out, which he already knew. New Mexico will give you the title right then and there. Not every state does that. You've got to wait for it to be mailed to you, which, you know, when you're doing things like this, you want everything right then in that transaction.

You don't want to be waiting around for it to mail you something or whatever and something to get caught. And then, you know what I mean? They catch up with the paperwork's bogus or this. So that's why making the payments was important. Right. You didn't want a default payment one because now you not only got to be. bank looking for you. The dealership's going to be looking for you. Hey, whoa, we're not going

to get paid on this because there's a, what they call it, a recall or whatever. Like a first payment default. If you don't make the first payment, they just come get the vehicle. They get that funding back, you know what I mean, on the loan. So basically, that was the reason for making the payments. So then after you let it marinate for like two months, right, you got everything going, make the payments, then would drive down to New Mexico, go to any DMV in New Mexico, and you give them the release of lien paperwork. You Give them the title from Arizona and GMAC, Ford Motor Credit, whomever it was on the title. You got their paperwork that release of lien.

They sent you after you paid it off. You give all that to the New Mexico DMV. Okay, great luck to do all their thing. And they spit out a clear free title. So now that car, you have a clear free title on. So at that moment in time, you can take that car to do whatever you want with it for selling it. No dealership, no personal, you know, private buyer, sell type of things. You're going to question it because you've got a clean,

clear free title who's going to quote why this looks bogus it's full on legit it's from the state from the you know dmb right so then we take the car and then go sell it right so you bought this truck let's say back then the maybe they were eight thousand dollars nine thousand dollars depending on it because you couldn't get like fully loaded big truck as your first time buyer you limited because that was the angle you know young kid you know no credit that kind of thing and you had to also as it got into this thing you would establish credit would be helpful they had like the you know where you the secured credit card

those were kind of coming out then yeah so you would get a secure credit card for like $300 and then I would start creating a credit file right right so that's how you kind of once got started with multiple names you kind of build a file and let it grow a little bit let it marinate and then you know use that so this first car do the first full transaction over course of say three months

so after I have the clear free title then he says well let's go selling make some money so I go okay so I had to do all this by myself basically. So I'd go into a dealership and just say, hey, you guys interested in buying this car, our used car a lot, you know, whatever. You never did a private. They always went to like a big business, you know, a dealership or whatever. And so they would just rob you, you know what I mean? So if the car, say, you know, because it was still relatively new. So there's no blue book on it yet because it's still in the year that it came out. So, you know, you're selling in 94 and 94.

So they would basically, say the car was worth nine grand. They might. might give you $6,500. Right. But you're only into it for like $800 on the down payment. Right. And a couple payments you made. So, hey, that's a quick, you know, $6,500. Or, you know, more expensive car.

You know, it's more money. So it worked out. So basically did everything I just said, then sold the car to a dealership there, New Mexico somewhere. And it was kind of funny because they're, well, why did you, you know, what are you getting rid of this car? Because they didn't know. All they know is that the lien was just recently satisfied because, you know,

the title has the date on it, right? So they know that it was just recently issued. And I would just say, well, you know, I was in college, I was going to go to school. And I thought, you know what? I feel like backpacking around Europe for a while. So my parents bought me this car, and I'm going to sell it, and I'm going to take that money,

and I'm going to go to Europe and get a rail pass and have some fun. And you just give them whatever BS story, just something to satisfy their curiosity. And they go, okay, and then they go to the back room, come back and go, okay, this is what we could do it for, you know, cut you a check. then you take that check or the local bank

that it was drawn on and cash it and then now you've got that money you know and he would take a cut and then leave me with some

so basically like if it was a car that I did he would take about 40% 50% you know it's always what it's always some

you know some I was involved you know just like I go wait a man I did all that you know I'm on the hook here now

I'm doing the illegal shit you know I mean I want my fair sheriff I'm going to be doing this I at least want my 50% at least

right yeah was always trying to rob me on that too. You know what I mean? So basically then is what we did is he had the baptismals and all that. So then I just started making them names, right? So, you know, Jimmy James or whatever. And then you would get the, you know, just go through the whole process. So then you would take the baptismal, go get a driver's license, take the driver's test, all that stuff, you know. Like people go, shouldn't you have a driver's license by now? I said, well, you know what? I was a runaway. I was living on my own, doing drugs.

and stuff. You give them some stupid story. And they go, oh, okay. And that is, you know, because you're a young kid. I was like 21 at the time. Right. You know what I mean? So you just give them whatever BS story. Then once you have that legitimate driver's license, then you run over to social security and you fill out that form and you try to get a social security card. And then they'll be going, so then you have a social security number. I'm sure you have a social security. You've got a social security number when you're a kid. I said, I don't know. My mom and dad weren't Ozzie and Harriet. I don't know if I have one or don't have one. But I know that I've been a runaway for such and such time, living on my own, doing

blah, blah, blah, never had a legitimate job. Now I have a chance to get a legitimate job. They tell me I have to have a social security number. So you just kind of play stupid, right? Because you have everything you have is legitimate. Right. So you give me your ID, they check the system. They go, wow.

And then they come back and go, wow. Seems like maybe you don't have one. I said, well, yeah, no, I just told you that. Can I get one? You know, and then they give you a card. Then in a couple, you know, weeks in the mail, you get the social security card. So now you've got a legitimate state government-issued driver's license

and you've got a federal. government social security administration issued social security number. You're a complete legit. And it's not stealing somebody else's identity. You've just made up a fresh person, new person. Right. You know what I mean? You created literally a new person.

If only it works like that now. Yeah. Like now they actually, when you get, you go in for your driver's license, you have to have your social security number at that time. Yeah. And I think in California for a while they were putting your social security number on the driver's license. Yeah.

Yeah, they were doing that in Nashville, in Tennessee, sorry, in Tennessee, too, they were doing that. Which was really sad. Remember there was a time they would say, you know, you should carry your Social Security card with you? Yeah. I don't know if you remember that back in the olden days. As like, why would you do that? As a form of identification. Yeah, yeah, it's like, why would you do that? Right. So anyways, yeah, so it was flawless. I mean, it was complete, legitimate documentation based on complete fraudulent documentation, you know what I mean, basically. So once you have that, you're golden. I mean, you are not to go get a passport or whatever. you're basically created a whole brand new person.

You know what I mean? So with that, go buy another car. So now you're going, now you've been more bold and feeling a little like, hey, this, I can pull this off because now I had done it a couple of times. So then you go into a car dealership and you're trying to get as much car as you can get. Right. You know, I'll put down maybe $1,500, you know. Maybe now this has got a credit file because, like I said,

you kind of build the file, so to speak. And, you know, you get the, you know, paste up yeah you get all that and then the credit card you know the little secured credit card and then that would start reporting and all this stuff i didn't know at the time but this is you know how it works kind of like how you were building i think files kind of like that too right you had to have a little history but as a young person the angle with that was you weren't going to see a bunch of credit because you're a young person you know what i mean in 1920 21 you're not going to have like you know a bunch of credit and that played in the favor of the first time buyer

long as you at least maybe had something on there or at least nothing at all would be better than obviously something bad, right? So you go in, and plus also you could go to another dealership and they pull your credit and say, well, you don't have any, but then you go to another dealership and then that would create something, you know, it sees activity or whatever. They see it's an inquiry, so now there's a credit profile at least. And again, it's first-time buyer program.

You're going to get a higher interest rate. You're probably going to have to put down a little bit more down payment. But it was all bogus. Well, I mean, so you're only making a payment or two anyway. Yeah, yeah, so it didn't really matter. And the thing is, is what I caught on really quick after about three cars is these dealerships really didn't give a blink because what they saw was this dumb kid in here, you know, because they go, well, if you can't pull off the five-year payment, we'll go to six years. Well, that was just more money for them, you know what I mean? And, well, you know, why don't you get the warranty package and all this?

That's all their, they get their money and stuff, right? So you're saying, okay, well, that, and by the time you walk out, they've loaded a job with all kinds of stuff, and they were so confused. They were so caught up with how they were screwing me. They didn't realize they were getting screwed. You know what I mean? Because we're both kind of there screwing each other. Right. You know, I mean, you know, salesmen, you know, car salesmen, aren't they?

Yeah. They just won't sell the car. And they get some dummy in there and they're going to go, okay, okay. You know, because why fight it? Right. Like you said, you're going to pay a couple payments. You know, you already got what's going to happen. So, yeah, okay, screw me, whatever.

Can I get the car today? Yeah. You know what I mean? And usually nine out of ten times you drove off for that car. Again, these were smaller cars. like Ford trucks. They were like, I think Pontiac at the time at this little Grand Dam.

You know, little cars like that, the Mitsubishi came out with this eclipse. That was kind of really cool. So I got a couple of those, Chrysler LeBarrans, just little kind of entry-level cars or maybe cars that were a little nicer, but you didn't get all the features

and stuff on them, you know what I mean? Well, I was going to say the first-time buyer program because obviously when I would make these, my fake people, remember you could go to CarMax. So you could go to CarMax, and they would say, look, you can get, you can buy up to a $20,000 car, you have to put 20% down, and as long as you've got a job

will finance you. So they'd pull your credit, and you'd have no credit. You know, I would have, it would be some synthetic identity, no credit, but I can put down $4,000, you know, and they would say, okay, here's this, you will, they give me a $16,000 loan. I could buy up to a $20,000 car. That was a standard kind of a first-time buyer, but that was, this was also in the, in the, this was like in the early 2000s. You're talking about back in the 80s. This would have been like 88, 89. Yeah. So same thing. Yeah. You know, put a little bit of money down. You got a job. You got a pay

that's all they mattered. Then they go in the back room with the blah, blah, blah with the manager, whatever, come back and say, well, can you handle this payment? I don't know. That's, you know, be a little tough. Well, you think you can make it? You could probably make it with you based on you. Then they start selling you on that. You know what I mean? Well, based on your money and stuff, if you're doing this for your rent and whatever, you know, you could probably make that work, you know, work a couple extra hours or whatever. All right, okay, can I get the car today? Because I kind of need a car.

I think we'd get your car today. All right. Well, let's see if we can make that work. You know what I mean? And you'd drive off with the car. You know, it was crazy how they would just, you know, that was their job. Yeah, yeah. You know, and they didn't expect everybody in there was trying to con them with some sophisticated,

which was somewhat sophisticated. I mean, you know, scam, you know, thought out, nothing. Now, he probably got this idea from somebody else. I don't know if he came up with himself or what. But, I mean, like some of your stuff on your story, when I first heard your story about, you know, the homeless guys, some people would think, and I don't, anything I'm saying, I don't mean to say in a boastful way, you know, because it was wrong, paid the price for it, lost years of my life in a cage. Bad, bad, bad, don't condone it whatsoever. But you got to give some credit to a good scam, man. And that stuff with the homeless people, that is just, man, that's five stars, buddy.

I mean, I'm telling you, I get not saying it boastfully, but it's just, you know, from one ex-con to another ex-con, that was. It was one heck of a fantastic idea, because that's right there with, you know, creating the whole thing just from scratch. Right. But you were a little older at that time, so it would be hard for you to go, well, I'm, you know, 35 years old or whatever. I never had an idea. I don't think I have a social, but they'd look at you.

Maybe if you're 20, 21, look, you know, a little, you know, kid basically still, they bought into it. Right. They would double check, and then they come back and say, yeah, we don't see anything. 20 years, you know, the systems changed over 20 years, like that was still reasonable in, in your, you know, at that time. They weren't as question. And there wasn't his way to double-check the work or double-checked the story.

You know, they were just looking their system at Social Security. If their system said there's nothing with this birth date, this name, and these addresses, because you'd have to give them an address, a couple addresses. Give them one. Then they would say, well, apparently you don't have one, and we'll get you one because you need one. Okay, well, thank you. I appreciate that. I'm sorry.

You know, I know you just start playing that little, you know, innocent, you know, I don't know. Get into any of the racist stuff or whatever. It was white privilege back in the day or whatever, but they weren't questioning it to me. much. It was the, I was called my Golly G. Whiz routine. I didn't know. You know, and then I played, well, look, I ran away. They loved that one. I ran away. My parents were abusive. I've been living on my own. And I got into drugs. And I just got my act together. And I got this chance for a real job. But they said, I got to have a social. And if you don't have a

social, you can't get, we want to give you the job, but you got to get that social. They want to help you. Yeah. And then they double check because that was part of their job description. And then they come back and say, okay, fine. So you're good to go. So then you learn that, how that works, right? So you get comfortable. So now I've done it about three times. So now I'm kind of comfortable and understand the system of the scam. Right.

You know what I mean? And then we just kept doing that with multiple cars. And then, you know, the money started coming in, right? So is each person you're only buying one car? No. No. I would do that. I was just say why.

Yeah, well, I waste, you know, all that work on just one car. Right. So then, and this was in the Phoenix, Arizona area primarily, right? So as this thing was now taking. off, and I'm like all in, you know, whether I wanted to or not at this point, I'm just, oh, man, because I'm screwed either way. And this is one thing I rationalized it in my head, you know, because I'm a little twisted in the head, and I don't say that boastfully either. But at that time, you had, like the Wall Street guys, you had Ivan Boskey doing the arbitrage

stuff, and you had Michael Milken with his junk bonds and all that, and he had just got, you know, caught whatever, his scam was, I forget exactly precisely what he was doing with the stocks at the time. but he was making like 600 million a year during the stock trade in the bonds and stuff I don't know how much of it was a scam but anyways he got how you did a little time in prison, federal prison

and I thought my God this is pretty lightweight stuff compared to what those guys were doing so if they're only getting like two years in prison I mean probably I'm going to get like probation if we get caught you know I didn't realize how they took it when I got caught how they just

ooh my God hammered me like Jordan Belford you got like whatever it was three years for a hundred million dollars In him, and it wasn't his, didn't he get busted something in the 90s on that? Yeah, but still, it's all those guys that would get busted in these things. They're all getting three years, four years, two years. And a minimum security federal, you know, they called them club, what was it?

They called club fed then back of the day, you know. So you're thinking, if I get hit for a hundred grand, I'm getting probation. And we're crossing straight lines, state lines. So I'm thinking, well, it's federal, right? Because I did a transaction in one state. I washed the title another state and maybe went over it from, from Arizona, buying the car to New Mexico, watching the title to run a crossover to Texas like El Paso or something and sell it in Texas. So now I've covered this scam in three states.

Definitely seems federal. Seemed federal. But, you know, we'll get into that later, what the feds were interested in, what they weren't interested in. But I just didn't think what was going to happen to me later on, the amount of time it was going to take out of my life and what I had to go through for what I did wrong as it was. you know I did not see that happening you know so anyways we're doing this and this all happened within about 18 months so now we're kind of into this thing we're living in an apartment and sharing but he's disappeared a lot you know and go do his thing and then blow into town you know take off whatever and one night he comes home and I hear him out because we're just like this condo

apartment place and I hear him on the parking line he's woo-hooing it and just music on the car's full blast and he's probably drunk and I'm thinking where he must have come from the bar or something right and he comes in the house and he's just jacked he's a raw just you know like what what's what's what's going on you know you want coke what we're doing here and he goes look at this he throws it on the dining room table and says a check 250,000 dollars I'm like wow where did you get that don't worry about but there's a check for 250,000 dollars I said okay well good for you so a couple days later he gives me like 15,000. A check, he watched it into some other account

wherever he deposit, whatever it was. It gives me a check for 15,000. He says, here, put that in a bank and just leave it there. So I go, okay, fine. So then he disappears for a while, you know, like three, four days. You know, we weren't like, you know,

keeping track of each other, you know what I'm saying? And so I talked to him or somebody said, hey, well, I'm going to L.A. with some of my high school buddies, you know, and because back in those days, you could fly from Phoenix to L.A. you know, Ontario, there's different airports, you know, for like $29, literally. I mean, our flight, you know, so I'm always going back and forth, you know,

LA and stuff like that. And, you know, I don't know what he does to get this $250,000, but he gives me the $15. So again, just keeping me real then, just keeping me like all, you know, not asking too many questions and just, yeah, okay, I'm up for that, you know, I mean. And so then I said, can I use some of that money? He goes, well, yeah, I don't, you know, don't use it all. So I want to be, then he squits talking about it. So I want to be using all that money, right?

Hey, but he knew that. You know, I know that he knew that. You know, he never asked for it. And when I would say, I'm going to use, I only said I'm going to use some a couple of times. And then he said, fine, and never said anything about it. So I quit asking. I just wound up over, you know, you're blowing it. And so I'm in, all in.

At this point, I'm just entrenched in this scam. You know what I mean? Right. So we buy more cars. We're going to dealerships all over the Phoenix and Greater Phoenix area, you know, using one name two, three, four times to buy a car, right? And as all this is going on, I'm also thinking, you know, they've got to be catching on of this. Why is this one like business name, XYZ Corporation, all of a sudden buying their employees

buying cars all over, you know, Phoenix area, if you will, and all of them seem to be, you know, two or three payments and then, you know, they quit paying. So basically in default, why are all these, for this one company, all these employees in default? And I remember saying that, I go, you know, don't you think we need to shake this up, change this up or something, you know? Because it seemed like we're really, you know, you're going in at too many dealerships, you know. And back then, the computer systems weren't the way they are now.

But those, you know, the mortgage, not the mortgates, but the finance companies for autos as well, they, their computers would spit out stuff like defaults. And, you know, they had that ability to do that, even back then. Well, at some point, the guy in the collection department for Ford credit is going to say, this car made last month these three cars made two payments went into or and then it went into collections and the guy is in his 20s and they and all three of these guys are in their 20s and they all work for the same company you know next month okay these six cars guys in his early 20s and they all all these guys work for the same company and these are the same companies as those

companies like at some point there somebody's even if it wasn't computers somebody's going to put it together yeah they see it enough they're going to be like that sounds familiar yeah well because i started talking you know because i'm doing this you know i'm meeting people my age you're at that young of age you're going out you're hanging out you know you're looking for girls you know you're on the prowl right and now you got a few bucks in your pocket you're you know you're really having a good shot yeah you know because i grew up in a decent lifestyle i mean we used to go you know in life's vacations you know i went to summer camps. You know, one year, I think it was my summer between sophomore and junior year, they sent me and a buddy of mine to stay at a resort in Phoenix for a week. You know, he just

gave me an American Express card and said, you guys go, because it was a resort that we used to go to, and so go, why don't you go stay there, you know, and for a week and that would be, you know, summer vacation a little trip, just the two of you. We're like 7, 16, I think, then. So they gave us the room, let us stay there. And these, drinking age was 19 back in those days. It didn't go to 21 in all the states until like 1984. I think it was January of 85. All the states, because back then, California

was always 21, so that's all I ever really knew. But other states, you could drink at 19, some at 20, you know, and others at 21. But anyways, the moral of that story is in 85, the government said, if you don't, if a state doesn't raise it at 21, we're not giving you tax money for your roads.

Right. So everybody said, 21's a number. You know, I mean, so, you know, it's getting away with a lot of stuff hanging out, you know, and partying and all that stuff and just enjoying it and why the cars were, you know, we'd set up the names, you know, just getting it all in a row.

So you have a couple names, you weren't using them yet, maybe get the credit cards. So just building, getting, you know, the history to it a little bit, let them marinate a little bit, as I say, you know what I mean? So I'm doing a bunch of cars, you know, but I'm realizing that, you know,

a lot of somebody's telling me is kind of BS, you know what I mean? And it's just starting to get that, it's just starting to get a little leery of where's this thing going? Because now I'm like entrenched in a pretty deep. You know, and I'm having fun, you know, like go see my friends in L.A. One time it was like I was just enjoying being a little like mini jet setter, you know, just in this little triangle area of Vegas, Phoenix in L.A.

You know, I was still 21. I didn't even have a passport and any name and my real name either. So I wasn't doing any international travel. Right. He was taking off Jamaican things like this. But I was just having, at my age, I was like, wow, I'd go to Vegas, get a killer room, get some hookers, you know, party, gamble. I mean, like digging it, man.

This is all good fun, you know what I mean? Right. You know, I'm not hurting anybody. I'm having a great time, you know. So, did all that. And, you know, like one time I was in L.A., partied with some friends. I flew back to Phoenix, went to this resort where I hung out, had some lunch, and said, ah, this is boring.

I'll go back to the airport, got a plane, went to Vegas. I was in a suite that night of Vegas, partying it up. So this was like, cool. I was digging it, right? So I was having, I think exactly what he knew was going to happen, happen. So now I'm in it. So we keep doing it. in the cars. Some of the people I was meeting and stuff, because I'm always driving around

a new car. Right. You know, like, hey, we're getting all these new cars. So then I figured I better come up with a story, right? So I came up with, well, we're car wholesalers. So we buy the cars wholesale and then I wind up selling because that's why I always have a different car. You know, and most girls, I didn't care. They just believed in it, you know. But this apartment we were staying at, the guy manager there one time said, well, she got a lot of new cars all the time. I said, yeah, well, we're car wholesalers. He goes, oh, yeah, we used to do that. I'm like, oh, wow. You know, I got out of that conversation real quick, right?

Because I didn't want to get, because it was all bullshit. And Kenny looked at me with that jaundice eye, like, you know, I don't think wholesalers typically buy brand new from the dealership because, you know, they all had the paper plates on them, right, you know, when you first bring them home. And so that was like kind of weird. Now, we had been doing a bunch, you know, for well over a year, basically this whole scale.

That's all I was ever really involved in was the cars. Now, as you had that name back in, In those days, you know, you could do a lot of checks. Checks were big time in grocery stores. You could go to Sears, pay with everywhere you pay with a check. You know, you didn't have a lot of ATM cards and all that. You had it, but they weren't as today where you use it for everything. I never have cash on me ever anymore.

You know what I mean? But everything back then was cash and checks a lot. And then, of course, credit cards. So we also, while the car, you know, and it had a few cars and all that was the bigger money. The other stuff would be like checks, you know what I mean? So you get a check in. account. So then you could go around to like a grocery store, write him a $100 check for a pack of gum to give you back $98 or whatever. And then you keep doing that. So he'd be out in a car,

drop me off at the front door. I'd run in, grocery store, find something real quick, you know, at the line, whatever. And then pay for that, they give you back to $98. So you'll make it almost $100 every trip where you go around to 10, 15 grocery stores that day, then turn around sometimes on a profitable day, feeling energetic, go around on the next shift and do it. again, you know what I mean? And back in those days, they didn't quite catch up with those checks in their systems like they would now. Yeah, take a week. Yeah, and you didn't always, you didn't keep going back. You would just, you'd burn that. Once it was burnt, it was burnt. Right. But you could even go back in those days to like Sears buy a VCR for $150, take it back

and they would give you cash back. You give them the receipt and they would give you, oh, you paid with cash. They would call it a check cash. So it was, you know, you made a lot money that way, Plus doing shopping with your clothes, you know, shoes, jewelry, you know, all of that, buying girls stuff, going out shopping, buying them perfectly. Yeah, they love shopping days. Well, woman doesn't love a shopping day, right? You know, so it was all easy come, easy go, you know. Listen, they were doing that in the late 80s because I remember I had a buddy that was a, there

was a, like a hardware store called Scotty's, and I don't know if, I don't think they're around anymore. I think Home Depot put them out of business, but I had a buddy who would literally walk right in the door, grab a couple of, a couple of cans of, you know, or a couple of gans, a couple of gallons of paint, turn right around, walk 15 feet to the return desk and put them down and say, hey, look, we got the wrong color. I need my money back. And they just, do you have the receipt? He go, I don't have the receipt. They go, okay. And they give him cash. He didn't even have the receipt. They'd give him cash. Yeah, yeah. Obviously, Scotty's didn't make it very long.

Yeah. But yeah, I mean, and that was in the late 80s because, you know, now it's like, oh, we'll give you a gift card, you know, or we'll give, we'll put it back on the card or you don't have the receipt. Oh, no, no, you get a card. Yeah. Well, it was even crazy back in those days, like with, because some of these names, once you build up a little credit, you could even maybe get like a gas station credit card, you know, so you could stop at a gas station and fill up with their branded credit card, right? But they didn't have the POS systems you have today. Right. They had these old little, you know, knucklebusters is what they call them where they do a little imprint on the, you know, paper, right? I remember that. And then sometimes they were supposed to- Colby doesn't know what you're talking about. This is old in times. This is definitely old in times.

But one thing that they were supposed to do, I think every time, I don't know exactly, but they were supposed to call the 800 number just double-check verify it because they didn't have any route way to really verify if the card was good. There was still enough credit or whatever. And I had more than one time,

because I would drive up and down the I-10, you know, from Phoenix going down, you know, into New Mexico and into Texas, you know, selling the cars, retile them all that. So I was going all the way up and down there. be stopping at gas stations. So sometimes the car would be maxed out. You know, we hadn't even made a payment because it was about to get burned. And the guy, I remember saying, well, you know,

you look honest. And they didn't even bother checking. Just okay, boom, boom, and it took off. And I thought, man, that guy's going to get in trouble for that, you know, or whatever. But that's how people were back then. I don't think anybody would do that probably now. But so, so going through, you know, just burning the names, right? And you can build another name, build another name. And address moved around a few times because you just, even though you never use the address where you lived, you still got a little nervous. You know, I think you started getting paranoid, you know, like, oh, you know, what's going on?

And I figured at some point had to be like, you know, the jig was up, so to speak. I had to figure somewhere, somehow the cops were looking for somebody, something, you know, I just didn't know, you know. And one time I got, as you know, done a bunch of things, and it was starting to get burnt with the dealerships, going to too many and all that, because I did not know this at the time, but he had other people doing the same thing. Some girls he had met, he had my uncle, his brother's wife. doing stuff. I didn't know any of this at the time, right? So this dealership, I think they had

caught on because I was supposed to get with this truck like a bra. You know, in the old days, they had these bras and stuff. They sell these little aftermarket stuff. Yeah, yeah. Well, now you just get that little clear coating and whatever on it, right? But anyway, that was like a cool thing. It was a young kid, you know, different sports cars and trucks, I had a bra on it, you know, all the way up the hood and stuff like that sometimes. But anyways, they didn't have it. That day, it was like a back order or something. So I didn't take it home with me when I took the truck home. And the guy was calling me, hey, come in and pick this up. It's ready for you.

Hey, sport, when you come in, it kept, seeming like, this guy's talking to me funnier than, like, nor, it seemed like weird, right? I picked up on it. I said, well, I don't know if I can make it down the day. Well, when can you come in? You know, why don't you come in tomorrow? Maybe at about 2 o'clock. I said, I'll try to come in tomorrow.

I can't guarantee what time. But they were on to us, right? Yeah. And I knew it. I just sensed everything in me told me. And my God was saying, they're on to you. So I never went there. Well, the cops were hanging out on across the street.

waiting for me to come pick up that bra for the truck and pop me right there. So they were on to us. They were on to, maybe not knowing my name who I was, but they were looking for the scam. Yeah, exactly. They were on the scam because now the credit companies and stuff are saying, hey, what's going on, dealership? It was all starting to come together because it done too many in that area.

It wasn't a big area back then. Phoenix area, what it is today, certainly wasn't what it was then. So anyways, it was starting to get caught, so that I never went. Right. Then this apartment that were at was where the guy. manager was a car wholesaler, right? So we got out of there and bugged out of there pretty quick. And I remember I went back. I moved most everything out with this guy I knew, but he didn't know anything about anything. I said, hey, help me move out and put it into

a storage. And I had even a couple, going out, paranoid at that point, it had a couple cars in storage at storage places where you just rented the larger one and parked the car in there, just scared that having it out. You know what I mean? It started getting real paranoid nervous. So I went back to this apartment for something stupid that I'd left there, something that wasn't worth getting busted for. And I knew that it was probably stupid, but you take those chances, you know, you get a little risky or whatever. And that guy saw me and called the cops, right?

Now, I got out of there just in time. And as I was pulling out, you drive by the office and the guy was looking at me, like, you know, just that's like, you know, where the cops are going to get here kind of thing, right? Well, I bugged out of there quick. And come to find out, yeah, he had called the cops and the cops came and just missed me. So now, I'm like, you know, it's getting, it's getting like, you know, on. fire kind of thing right so still did another car of course you know you know so and i told me said i think you know we're burning this out you know ah like blah blah blah you and that kind of thing

because i think he almost wanted to get caught did you ever encounter that where some people that that you met you know they almost wanted to get caught until they get until they got caught they didn't get fully recognized for their genius does that make any sense i can see i can see people. I can see feeling that way or someone feeling that way. And I've, and I think my buddy, Zach and I both, you know, you get, you get sloppy because it's not that you're lazy that you get sloppy because you just feel that emboldened like, oh, they're never going to catch me. They don't, they're not even close, but not realizing, no, they are close. They're extremely close. Yeah, they're circling. Right. They're circling. You just don't know it. And by the time you know it, you're in handcuffs. Now you're like,

oh, wow, that was stupid. And he just came out of nowhere. Yeah. And it's too. Light, so I could see that. Yeah. Because one time after that happened with that, shortly thereafter, was in Texas selling a car, did the routine, Phoenix, went to, you know, to try and have to find different deals. Because New Mexico wasn't very populated back then. I mean, they literally had one area code, you know what I mean, for the whole state.

So couldn't keep going to the same DMV because people start to recognize you. You know, start going to too many places too many times. People start to recognize you, remember you, whatever the case may be. So you couldn't keep going the same exact DMV. So you had to start going up in different parts of the state to get a DMV. And the beautiful thing about New Mexico was they gave you the title right then and there. That was the whole reason basically in New Mexico. And so I'm in Texas.

And right before that, a buddy of his that he was in prison in California, you know, I told you he went up for fraud in California, some prison buddy of his all of then shows up. So I'm going to doing the routine with this car. so then I get into Texas and at the hotel I said where I was going to be well that guy shows up right and then I need to go sell the car the next day I'm what are you doing here?

You know, because he knew it was my dad because when we were doing the thing talking to people we never said that you know we kind of looked alike so they didn't know something but just really never you know discussed that with people you're you know running scam with so this guy

you know he's basically seemed like a knuckle dragger type you know what I don't want anything to do with this guy but I don't know what he was there, what the whole angle that was. So he goes with me to this dealership in Texas, right, to sell the car. So we're setting there, he's with me. We're that guys doing the deal, right? Worked it all out.

Just waiting paper. You know, car dealership takes forever to do anything. But we're just sitting there, just chill. You just play, you have to play it out, right? So you could look out like right here. We're sitting right desk just like this. I'm here. The guy's right here.

But there's a window where you can see out on the lot. There's two cops out there, motorcycle cops. Now it's a car dealership. Maybe they just pulled up looking for cars. I'm looking at going, wow, this guy's starting to sweat. He's the convict. He's already been in prison. Maybe that's why he's starting to sweat.

I'm not sure. But, you know, and they say, hold your mud. It was not holding his mud very well. You know what I mean? I'm just sitting there just playing it cool because either I'm getting out of here or I'm effed. One of the two is going to happen today. But I could F myself by, you know, flipping out, you know, running out or whatever. That's the wrong thing to do.

So I just sat there, held it, stayed cool. They were just there looking at cars. It was just a coincidence. It had nothing to do with it. me or us whatsoever, but the fact you're sitting there and 10 feet away on the other side of that glass are two cops, you know, your backside's bucking up a little bit, you know what I mean? So stuff like that. So I was just getting like, man, this is just getting too crazy, you know, you know, this is we're going to get busted.

And he started, you know, just like I said, just, just, there was no trust. It was like there was no honor amongst thieves. You know what I mean? It was just, just, just, I felt like I was just being used. I let myself be used you know I started to regret doing it all I was like oh shit

because now the hole was dug fairly deep you know what I mean and he had a couple other names so it's what he was doing well I was doing the cars like the entry level type cars

and I helped him like this girl that I knew worked and lived at an apartment complex right she was like leasing agent there so one day I was with her at the leasing agent

just kind of flirting around with her, you know, hanging out where she was working, nobody else was there. And she would go in this back room and they got the files of everybody who lives there. Right. Right? Because you got your file. And in those days, they weren't on the computer. They were in these big file cabinets, you know, apartment 213 mobile.

And this was like a 350 unit complex. It was a rather large place, right? So I said, I got to get in there. Yeah. You know what I mean? So I finagle the way to get in there and got, you know, looking through a few things and found some older people, not younger people, because I had an angle with the younger thing, because older people would have more credit.

That's where the identity theft came in. So I was able to get in there and get some files, basically just write down the information. I'd actually take the file. And I gave that to him. So he assumed some of those identities, right? Basically, that was no longer making up something from scratch. He was using other people, you know, named identity theft, basically.

And the very inception of identity theft. I don't even think, you know, back in 89, that was like a well-known thing. It was obviously happening, but it was a, big time on the radar like it is now, you know what I mean? So the idea with that was he would buy more expensive cars like beamers, you know, stuff a person that age, you know, could afford with that kind of good credit, right? Because I'd get some names and then whoever he would figure it out from, you know, whoever you knew, would find out if they had good credit or just

take it on chance, you know, by looking at what was in there. And sometimes they would have a credit report to him or whatever, you know, where you could see some stuff. So anyways, he worked out, I would give it to him. So he would get like some beamer, some more expensive of cars, you know, maybe back in those days, maybe 30, 40, $50,000 cars, and did a couple of those. Well, he was supposed to cut me in, you know, that was a good deal. So one time he comes back, he went to Vegas where he's going to sell it, right? So he comes back and says, oh, man, they were onto me, they got me, you know, like, oh, you know, worried of this, you know, they're just just fake bullshit. I go, no, no, I'm not buying that. You sold that goddamn car

and you're keeping all the money. And I did most of the work to get it. We're at least 50-50 into this thing. Right. You know, and, no. And I just, that kind of was like, you know, I'm not doing that. You know, that's not, not kind of the agreement, so to speak, you know what I mean. We were now kind of like, you know, partners, so to speak. And that's the least kind of what I thought, you know, not the right kind of partners, but, you know what I mean?

And then, you know, she's just starting to screw me, you know, and I just figure this is where it's, you know, it's kind of coming to an end, you know, and it was, we weren't going to get more cars. Where were going to go? Start going up to dealerships and, you know, others. cities and it was just kind of just had run its course you know i mean but knew the cops were onto us too that i mean it was all coming to a head basically so i had this he got busted right so about a month and a half after that we kind of just started partying ways i got another apartment

you know and we had a couple other cars got rid of those you know gave him his little bit you know got some more out of him from some of the other car you know it was just it was just all bullshit and um Then my mom calls me and says, hey, your dad got busted and arrested. I'm like, what? Because she knew something was going on between the two of us. Right. Like, what are you talking about? He goes, oh, yeah, dad got busted in Texas.

Someone was in Texas with this dancer chick that he was, you know, hanging around with. I said, oh, wow. So he was in, they had him on a bunch of stuff, right? Because he was doing, God knows what else. This was just a little thing with me and I. I thought it was the only thing. There were all kinds of other things going on. Other people involved.

So at the time I had no idea about. So he's in jail. Now I'm all alone. You know, didn't have that much money. During this whole thing, I never had more than like $35,000 cash at one time. Right. So there was money. And for a 21-year-old, a 22-year-old kid, that was a boatload of money.

But when you think about it, what I went through when I got busted and all that, whatever money I got was not worth the time and everything it took out of my life. You know what I'm saying? Right. So I didn't make it in the ground. grand scheme of thing that much money, but it still wasn't worth it. So, I mean, you're saying at one time, but it had to be 100,000 or more than that over the course, because you're also spending, you're getting five in, you're spending five, you're getting this in, you're spending

six, you're getting this in, you're spending three. So you're saying at some point, it was adding up and you had a nice chunk. Yeah, I never, yeah, yeah, no, because it always cost money to doing business, right? Yeah. So I'm just saying, I never had more than like 35 grand at any time built up. You know what I mean? So, I mean, so, I mean, And it's still a good chunk of change. Yeah, yeah. And I wanted to blow in it all, you know, of course. But, you know, it wasn't like millions or anything.

I go, well, there were cars. It was good money, you know, decent money kind of thing. But it wasn't like, you know. And you're living in a nice house. You're dropping nice cars. Yeah, blowing money like crazy, you know, bars and hanging out, you know, and going on the top of the bars, chicks, trips, you know, local trips, things like that. I wasn't like international anything, like I said.

So anyway, okay, he's busted. Now, I'm setting on one last final car, right? and then when he got busted in the storage place we had a boat and a trailer and um there was something he had i think it was just the boat and trailer so i took that oh and i had a truck at the time too i said i had a truck i had like a ponniac what were they called the not the trans end they called not the grandam it was a firebird yeah yeah it was like the lower one yeah so i had one of those too right so i used the truck to pull the trailer and the boat to uh well first of my buddy and I went to have a shoe and partied up there with the boat for a little while.

Then we towed it back down to L.A. area, and I sold the boat in that truck there to this guy. That was all taken care of the titles. All of them were good. So I just sold it there, and it worked out. And then I had this one last Grand Am. So I'm driving. It's my only car. It's the only thing. I still had some paperwork and stuff. I could have probably kept doing it, but it's just, I was done. It was over. It just imploded, right? He's in jail. I'm probably going to jail. So I had this one last car. One last car. Right. And it was that firebird.

I go to Vegas. Well, first of all, I had to get the title. And I was too scared to go anymore to New Mexico. Because I just felt like everywhere I was going. I feel like people are looking. I'm just going to get paranoid. Somebody knows, you know. Are you on Coke at this time?

No, no. I would party some. I mean, we were doing some Coke here and there, but I was not strung out of Coke. Okay. You know, make party a little here there. But it was paranoia. It was just natural paranoia. Because they are looking for you.

Yeah. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's not paranoid. Yeah, it's precisely. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I've been doing wrong and they're about to get me. So I go to Oklahoma because Oklahoma just felt like a safe state. They would still mail it to, but they're supposed to mail it to you in like three days, you know, so I figured, because I'm on the phone calling around, you know, DMV, calling all these different states.

How do you guys issue title? You know, I got a clean, you know, I needed blah, blah, blah, and I'm moving there, you know, just the BS story. So I find out Oklahoma at the time, they didn't give it to you that day, but they would have it mailed out to you within three days. So I thought, okay, well, I can do that. So I drive to Oklahoma from Vegas, I had been in Vegas with this car, got the title, you know, what did I go there? I already had the, no, I forget, God, it's been so long now, if I had the title, because I went to their DMV, yeah, so I went to their DMV with all the clean title work, but they took three days to get it back to me. So I was staying at this motel there, right? You know, in Oklahoma City. Well, it never came. I'd go every day

down to the front desk. Do you get the melted day? Do you get the mail for me? Do I get any milty day? And so I stayed there for like eight days, never got it, right? So then I had to go back to Vegas, and then I kept calling them, and it never got it. So then I had to go fly back to Oklahoma, go back to the DMV and redo it, and they call that a duplicate, because they had already issued it to me. They mailed it out. I never got it. Whatever happened, it just, because things were falling apart, I guess, whatever. I never got that. So then they got the duplicate, and they finally mailed out to that hotel, and I got that, but now it's a duplicate on it. So then when I fly back to Vegas to sell the car, because the car was still there, I just went,

I flew that day to pick up, and I know it sounds kind of crazy, but I flew, I went, I drove back because I'd been staying there for like almost two weeks, and it just didn't work out. So I didn't know exactly what to do, so I just drove back to Vegas. And then I think I reapplied or whatever. but anyways I had to fly back to pick it up basically as well it was it was now sent to that hotel right so I flew back to pick it up and then I I flew there pick it up and then flew back to Vegas then got the car then went to a dealership in Vegas with the title to sell it right right just off of the strip so I go there that afternoon to sell it to the guy to put the

it said duplicate on it which at the time I didn't realize how much they looked into it if it said duplicate because I was kind of like a red flag type thing so he gave me a thousand dollars that night and I had like a little apartment there in Vegas so um I went from the dealership with $1,000 to Caesars, partied, hung out for a little while, then went to the dealership, I mean, then went to the apartment that I had, had a hooker that I knew came over, did our thing,

she left, and then the next morning I went over to get the rest of my money, right? Well, I get to the dealership, they're taking their time, let's just be one more minute, just one more, you know, typical stuff they do. The police are almost here, one more minute. Exactly, is what it was. So I'm like, well, you know, about ready to like, maybe should I split?

Should I split? They either come back. It's just going to be one second. We got the check. She's just cutting it right now and blah, blah, blah, blah. Then I look over here and I see a cop car, just a regular, you know, black and white squad car. And I'm like, oh, shit. What am I going to do? And there's only one way to get out. It was the front door where the cops were. So they come up, they come in, blah, blah, they get me. So I'm giving all my bullshit I can. They're not really buying it. They arrest me there right then that day. So now I'm arrested. I'm in Clark County jail busted with this fake phony name, right? So I'm just there in the drunk tank, whatever, just waiting for what's going to happen. So about three, four hours, you know, passed by. They call, they start calling out names. So they call out my real name. Like, oh, shit. It happened that quick. So they were like totally get more onto it than I even realized. They not only knew the bogus bullshit, but they had my room, because it was him. They probably had his name. And, you know, so anyway, they had my, they called out my real name, right? So, oh, no. So, you know, I wound up staying there for two weeks. Then they extradited me.

When they called it out, you didn't look around. Yeah, well, I did for a minute. I said, is there another one? You know, I thought, because, you know, wait, the last thing you wanted to hear was that. Robert? Yeah. They're calling. So I'm like, oh, no.

So I wound up staying there for like two weeks, right? So I meet this guy while we were there because it was overcrowded. So the first three days you never got to like a pod or anything. You were like sleeping up. They called it on the roof. It was actually. It was like the top floor. You just laid mats on this big like gymnasium.

thing and that's where you slept and then in the day they took you back downstairs and basically a drunk tank you sat there like 18 hours it was not fun three three days then got into a pod but he was over there I met this guy we were talking you know he was in used car business they bought and flipped cars right so it's just funny and I was doing this thing with cars and I was telling my story now he was there because they had a warrant but it wasn't him it was something else is confusing so he got out like three four days later right but we're we're there for about you know three or four days together because it took three days to get into a pod we're a pod together for about a day. Then he got out and then I got moved and whatever. And then

not two weeks later, they shipped me to Phoenix. Now I get to Phoenix. So they charged me with one charge of the car, you know, fraudulent, whatever, of one car. So I knew they're going to have the rest. So then I'm in jail. They had, you know, high bail. And then also New Mexico put a hold on me. So I had no chance of really getting out. Even if I made bail, they'd still have the hold from New Mexico. So New Mexico was kind of looking for me, obviously, in an Arizona where most of it happened. And then the feds never got involved, never once. I kept saying, isn't this a federal case?

I kept saying it in my public pretender, as they call them. You know, isn't this federal? I mean, boom, boom, boom. But as it turned out, after all it settled, the only people there ever were interested was Arizona because New Mexico ultimately dropped the charge once they found I got sentenced to jail, prison. and, you know, at the other states, nobody ever picked up, ever said anything. So the only thing I wound up getting prosecuted for was in the state of Arizona.

So at the time, they had me with like 15 counts, you know, they had all this stuff. I mean, obviously, we did more, but, you know, that was like a lot right there. And in Arizona, they have felonies listed at one through six. Six would be like a minor felony of sorts and one being murder. Fraud is two. So you're a class two felony. There's only one more thing worse you can do than fraud in the state of, Arizona at the time was kill somebody. So you're a fraudster or a murderer. I mean, it was like

class two felony. I'm like, what are you talking about, man? It was just some paperwork. You know, they were going hard on me, you know. But that was it. I mean, there were some other people in there for just basic credit card fraud. Just stupid shit. They were calling class two felonies. So I'm in the county jail for like nine months. And I'd never been in jail. I got arrested for like a DUI when I was just turned 19 at some event, shirt my tires coming. me now like an idiot cops pulled me over i was drunk got a DUI you know they didn't even told my car they just went down the local thing spent the night and then got out so that was the only time i'd ever really been in jail and now it was like you know a little bit overnight and i was

kind of drunk so now i'm really in jail now it's like on me i'm in like real jail i'm in this pod there's like oh my god all these people and the noise and you're just you're in they're like sardines i'm like i don't think i can bet the last you know this is not going to work for me man I just isn't, you know. What's the lawyer saying? What are they saying? How much time are they offering you anything? Well, in the very beginning stages, you know, they weren't being much help, actually.

And here's the other thing that happened. As I got arrested on that one charge, you know, they kept pitting me with more additional charges and then folded it all into one, like, file and did it to the district attorney. Because the one, I was just in a city, a suburb city where one of the dealerships was. Right. So then they moved it into, like, the district. Phoenix, you know, county, you know, whatever, Phoenix court. And so then they, they, in the beginning they weren't saying anything other than,

well, we got to wait until all of it settles. So I'm in jail. I don't this ever happened to you. I kept getting arrested while I'm in jail. Yeah. They call my name, you know, blah, blah, blah. And you got to go, they're going to arrest you. What?

I'm in jail, man. So then they would pull you out and you'd have to go through all that process. Like you just got arrested off the street. so now I'm back in like this drunk thinking all this shit. They like serve you, like some other state will come and serve you. Okay, we're serving you for this. And now they need a complete file for that arrest. So you go back and your fingerprint again, get your picture again.

So they build another file. And then a week later, they call you up again. Some other state comes in and says, okay, they're arresting you for this. Yeah, that was a fun. It was a great time. Like I was being, like when I first got arrested, when I finally got to where I was, It was like once every week or two weeks. They're showing up giving me different lawsuits that were paperwork that was against me.

They were constantly like, hey, boom, sign here, sign. But guys would constantly be called in. They'd take them out of the pod, bring them back to the front, take pictures, do everything, come back. And they'd be like, just got charged in the district, your district 11, you know. It was like every time they call me in, I thought, oh, man, you know. Somebody they call you, they had some people where there's something for jail bullshit, right? Yeah. But, you know, yeah, so that happened five or six times. So anyways, as it finally ultimately came down, they charged me with eight class two felonies, right?

Fraudulent. They called it fraudulent schemes and artifice. So I'm in that county jail for nine months going through there. They do a plea, you know, I'm finally get down to a plea. So finally please it down to two counts of attempt to commit fraudulent schemes. I think it was still a class two. They may have bumped it up to a class three felony. so they um they didn't say that the time there was no exact time on that on that plea agreement yet right so then like i've been in that pod for nine months went outside during that nine months maybe i literally 20 hours 25 hours you know during that nine months and that would be sometimes just getting a little air going from the jail to the van you know because they didn't do a lot of wreck they played

little games you know in county jails i noticed like they would come they do chow at like 430 in the morning and five o'clock in the morning and then right after that most everybody would go back to sleep and it was like one of the quietest times actually you know what I mean well then they would come and say like with no warning or anything

wreck wreck okay nobody wants the door shut so it's like well wait a minute you know and you're you know so you never even go and wreck was not

you know this dirt little field thing you know so it was no funny anyway but at least you get some fresh air so anyways for the first nine months I didn't even get outdoors I mean you just locked in there you kind of learn how to survive and live and all that, you know, it wasn't like crazy where people

trying to beat you up and, you know, all that. But I also learned there's a dynamic, there's a social, sociology, whatever the terminology would be, how these people are. Now, fortunately, you know, I had a little bit of brains and could pick stuff up, you know, but I'm not a fighter, you know, I didn't grow, I got some fights and stuff, but some of these people were, you know, legitimate, you know, weren't people I would ever hang around with on the streets, so to speak.

So anyways, I made it through. So at the end of the nine months, finally come with a plea agreement, they gave me two, class two or three felons, whichever it was. And the first one, they gave me 3.75 years, which wasn't too bad. And back then they had this where you'd do 50%, because it was like first time, whatever.

So you got this like soft time things. It was like 50%. So, and then the second one, they gave me five years probation. But here's the thing, the five year probation didn't start until you got out of jail. Right. Right. And then they attached $250,000 restitution to that. Yeah. I said, wait a minute, I don't think I ever got $250,000. They don't care. And then the other little thing,

that I forgot to tell you was during all this was going on, they were telling me about my co-defendants. I said, who's my co-defendants? I said, well, you know, your father's name was listed. And then they had these other names, like four other people. I said, I don't even know these people. What I knew was my aunt, his brother's wife. It's the only person I knew.

The other one, I didn't even know who they were. I said, and on my co-defendants, I don't even know that. I never met. I don't know who you're talking about. It's not how it works. I was sure, whatever you should, yeah. That's not how it works. Right, right.

Yeah, exactly. I got these co-defendants, I don't even know. And then they're, like, hit me, they were throwing out like 10 years, and they start talking, you know, before everything's settled down. They're like talking 10 years. They were still saying 10 years the day I went into sentencing because they, you know, transport you over. So it's the final day.

They still didn't have anything locked in on time. They just had these parameters of sorts, right? So he says, my attorney, who was kind of an idiot, that really wasn't all that. These public, they called them public, they're public defender, but they call them public pretenders. pretending to be a lawyer, but I mean, they're just dipshits, right? And this guy had been really quite worthless.

And so he says, hey, well, they're talking 10 years. The prosecutor's talking. They want 10 years. I said, they want 10 years for me, for what I did. I mean, wrong as it was. Who did I even victimize? Right. Because most of the stuff, those deals were so legit and the cars were sold,

they never got the cars back because everything was legit. You know, the who really got burnt was probably, you know, ultimately the finance company didn't get paid back. Because even the dealerships, you know, they had a one or two payment recourse, and we made three payments, they probably still kept the money themselves, you know, so the banks were the thieves anyway, I thought. So, you know, I didn't feel as bad as maybe you should have, you know, robbing banks, so to speak, you know, or finance companies, but

they claimed I made $250,000. I was liable for $250,000 in the restitution. So I go basically get sentenced to prison. So they gave me 3.75 on the first and then five years on the second to start when you got out of prison from that first one, right? But you've already got nine months in, too. Yeah, but it was only day for day. You didn't get in good time or anything. Right. So it was nine months.

I got all my time, but it wasn't, it could have been 18 months, you know, one, two for one, whatever they were doing back then. So, all right. So now you go through the, I'm sends to prison. About three weeks, they get me out of the pot, take me over to the reception center for a department of corrections where they give you your name. You're in like a lockdown thing until they get used, you know, what do they call it? Categorized.

Yeah, yeah, classification. So then they go to class. classification, right? So I'm hearing all these guys talking, because I'm just listening at this point, giving my mouth shut. And people are talking about, you know, classification, what you say, what you don't say, this, that, or how it works. So they finally call me in for classification. And, you know, I'm like, hey, I don't know what, you know, everybody seemed to think I was the kinkpin or something on his thing. I was my dad who got me into it. I'm trying to get some sort of love, some sort of feel sorry for me, whatever. And the guy looks at me and goes, well,

I don't know, I was thinking about putting you on a four yard. And because they had basically minimum, medium, and then max, but they would have like a three, you know, like if your score was a three, they had basically for them, they had an institutional score and a public risk score, your institutional risk and your public risk. So they were talking, so I did, I was scared about getting on some heavy duty yard. I mean, I was a soft white guy, you know, bank fraud, basically. I wasn't looking to be with some real convicts. Right. So the guy, well, I was thinking about putting you on a four yard. I don't know if he started to scare this shit out of me or what, but I took the man for being serious. Like, whoa, whoa. I'm just,

oh, you know, so they wound up setting me at 3-2. So my institutional risk was a 3, which put you on a medium yard, and your public score was a 2, you know, so that's where it was. All right, so anything of 3 public or institutional risk, you had to go to a minimum yard. You could work your way down. You had to be a 2-2 or lower to get to a minimum yard. Didn't so much matter about the time you had to get down to that, you know.

And so I'm at a medium yard, right? Right. So I'm still at the reception place. And so moving day comes. Oh, this is great. So moving day comes, right? They call my name out. Today is my day. I'm going on the bus to wherever I'm going, because you don't know where you're going, right? So you're on the bus and you're making all these stops, picking up people here, dropping off people that, you know how it is, right? So they go into this one place. It's in Florence, Arizona. It's like their old, one of the oldest prisons. And then they had just built some new prison. It was called Special Management Unit. So we pulled in there The guy's on the bus Oh man we're behind the walls You know all this kind of you know stock I'm like what the fuck You know I said well I'm not going here

You know obviously I'm going somewhere else There's no where I'm going So they call it two names The third name I call my name I'm like oh huh You know and I had to get up and go Because you can't be a little you know Pussy there with all these convicts

Because word gets around You know what I'm saying I had to get up and you know Straight in my back and shoulders back And walk off that bus in the quote, God knows what. So ultimately, now I'm scared. I'm inside. I'm like, where the F are they sitting?

I'm like, oh, whoa, whoa, oh, I'm like, you know. So we get in there, and they start to kind of explain, you're here because there's nowhere else for you to go, because we didn't have any space. And this new prison is somewhat empty, and you're going here. You're not here because of the risk level. You know, you guys are medium level, and this is a maximum, maximum place. But this is where you're going to be housed.

until we can get a bed for you on a yard where you're supposed to be. Just tell them you could just let me go. I said, well, man, it was like crazy. I mean, even the visits, you know, even the visits to my grandparents weren't that far from there. They came and visited me a couple of times. It was through the glass on the phone. I mean, you got all the luxuries of a hardcore prison, you know, would not be,

was supposedly not even supposed to be there. Now, the only one little thing they did do is, you know, because it was that straight, you know, heavy lockdown type thing. You had four, maybe it was five cells downstairs and then upstairs. there's another five, and then a little bit of a day area, if you will, and then, you know, the doors, right? And normally that would be set up where everybody would be pretty much 24-hour, 23-hour lockdown, and one guy go to the shower. And then they had a little wreck room, like a little racquetball court at the end where you could walk around in circles,

you know, for like 20 by 20 space, right? And the only thing that we got was that was open all the time. So the cell doors were open all the time. They had tables out there. You could play cards, games. They had a TV. So it was almost back to being in a county jail, right? You know, in a lot of ways. It wasn't, you could get a TV. You could get all the encutrements of prison, get your TV sent in, get your little radio sitting in, all that kind of stuff that you could do back then. So I was able to get that set up while I was there.

And then I'd been there like maybe a couple weeks, and some guy came around in the morning and said, hey, do you want a job in the store? I said, just something to do, right? So I said, what do you experience you? I told him, I was in sales, you know? So I goes, oh, do you want to work in the store? I said, yeah, I work in the store. So they put me to work in the store the next day.

you go in there and fill the orders, you know, for all the commissary, right? Plus, you got to eat good and, you know, all that kind of stuff. So I did that the whole time I was there because I was there almost four months. Right. And it was, it sucked. I mean, it sucked. Everything was controlled movement, you know, everything was kind of like them getting warmed up and practiced for all the hardcore types, you know what I mean?

So anyway, I was there about four months, and then I finally got to the medium yard that I was supposed to go to. And those yards are called open yards back in those days. And this was a big yard. I don't know exactly how many people were there, but it had like four mini yards, and then all those opened up under the big yard. We had the track. You had the grass in between the track, and you had a little park area, you know,

and then get administration, building, school, you know, and all that stuff. It was a pretty good size yard, but it was always open. You know, they'd open at like 6 o'clock in the morning, you know, everybody go to breakfast and all that. Then maybe lock down at lunch, you know, do quick count. Go to lunch, you're out basically until afternoon, count before dinner, and then the yard was open until like about 9 o'clock at night. I mean, it was wide open.

Right. I mean, there's shit everywhere, places you could hide. There was not cameras. I mean, there's blind spots all over the place. You know what I mean? So you had to watch your P's and Q's and kind of, you know, where you'd be and where you didn't want to be and, you know, that kind of thing. But I quickly learned that they had this thing called Pride, and I forget what it stood for. But it was basically like a little jailhouse rehab type thing. And I caught on, caught wind of that. And they were at a very end in their own little section. And it was like nicer and cleaner and all that. You know, I said, that's where I need to be. Yeah. You know, and you didn't have to work or anything because that was considered your work, you know, and all that. And you just do the little classes and all that. And that's what's funny. One time I heard you say in your story about they would pull you up to use that terminology there. People were like, it basically just ran you out, snitching you out, gosh. I thought we were convict here, man.

You know, I thought you weren't supposed to tell them people, you know what I mean? But it was a much better living experience, you know, is more mellower people back there in that section. But you could still do the whole yard. but nobody who, if you weren't in pride, you couldn't go in that section. Right. You know, I mean, but we obviously could go out, you know, whatever. And, you know, it was, it was a lot, you had to put up a lot of BS, but it was a lot easier way to do it, you know, what I thought. So I had basically did 22 months.

So I basically got arrested, I think it was like, what was it, April of 90. It was right around Earth Day of 1990, and I got out March of 1992, March 22nd of 19. 92. So when I'm doing all the jail time, you know, it was like 22 months from start to finish. So it wasn't too bad, but I mean, it wasn't good, but 22 months, you know, could be worse. I was talking to people there and, you know, longer sentence. So anyways, I got out without much incident. And while I was there, you know, that settled in. I mean, it was back when things were a lot different. You could get packages sitting in for Christmas. Get up to like three 25 pound packages in Christmas. And you could get fresh, like cookies and shit even sit in. You know what I mean?

It was like crazy. They wouldn't let you have like a fruitcake because I guess you could turn that into booze, you know, whatever. So they didn't let you do that. But the stuff they would let you have in now, obviously none of that happens. Yeah, no. Like the TV and all that stuff. Like you're not getting a TV in yourself.

You're not getting any of that kind of stuff. Yeah, because even back then the TVs were just a normal TV. Then they went to, you had to buy a TV from them. They had to clear so you could see inside the TV. So anything was missing because anything they could use for a tattoo gun, you know, a little radio card, whatever they got from. from cassettes. I mean, whatever. Some of these people were so smart with their genius for doing no good. If they just used a little bit of that for doing a decent life, you know, they could

have made probably decent money, you know what I mean? Because they weren't all stupid. Yeah. But, you know, I kind of stayed away from most of that. But that 22 months went without much, like, you know, I didn't get, you know, in a lot of fights, you know, people weren't ripping me off. I kept, you know, I paid attention, you know. And I get a little mouth sometimes. You know, people piss you off, you know, but, you know, you got to get them not a really big fighter, because that's really how you resolved everything was basically if you owed them money for like a damn gambling debt or drug dead and you didn't pay him, what were they going to do? You can't sue them.

Yeah, you know, so I never did any drugs or anything well. I figured being in jail was in enough trouble. Right. You know, and some people walked around there, they were just so proud to be in jail. It was like the pinnacle of success. I'm in a fucking cage. I'm a convict. And they just, I'm with my people.

It is just great. Every day they were happy and enjoyed them. I thought, what the fuck are you so happy about? You're a loser in a cage, man. And I would say that a couple of times in those groups. And what's so good about being here, man? You don't feel like you're a loser at all? Oh, no.

You know, it's just like, I don't know. They looked at life differently or something. I felt very much like a loser because you are, right? I mean, I was at, I'm on top of my game where, yeah, I'm in prison. So I never, I never like, it wasn't my identity, you know what I mean? I never wanted that to, even, you know, when I got. got out, you know, to, you know, be like my identity was, you know, a convict, right? And so, okay, so I finally get out after 22 months.

Wait, can I ask you a question? Well, what happened to your dad? He wound up getting, because he was doing something in California. So he got 10 years in California because he already had a history in California. We were going back even as a kid in prison, so I had a long history. And then as we're going through all the court stuff and you're finding out about these co-defendants I didn't even know about. and you're getting all the testimony and all this stuff they're talking about

and then I found out he had an FBI file because you get all this because they're your co-defendants, right? Like, who are these people? Even him, I didn't know. That's when I found out about he was in the California Youth Authority

as a kid, had an FBI file. I'm like, God's name was this man doing because I did not know. I had an idea, but I didn't know what I was doing. So anyway, so he wound up doing 10 years in California, then got also the stuff in Arizona, and they gave him to them concurrent. So he did a bunch of time in California,

ran that number to a number to a certain amount, then they transferred him to Arizona, where he finished up. And he did almost a dime, straight. All right. Yeah. So he got out a little bit, well, he was in there for like 10 years. Okay, I'm getting a little ahead. So I did the 22 months.

So I get out. Well, I get out, he's still in jail, right? Because he had been in jail. He was actually in California then. I was in Arizona. So I get out in March 24th of 1992. I've got five years probation starting. I've got 250,000 restitution they want.

And, you know, I'm on parole for that other, the first number, the first charge, so to speak. So I get out, the interstate compacted me to Arizona, Las Vegas. But the guy I met there, we stayed in contact and we're going to do something together, legit, you know, because he wasn't really career criminal. He was just in there for him, you know, confused him with somebody else or whatever. So, you know, the idea was we were getting into doing something, cars or whatever, legitimate, you know, because at that time, he and his partner were just about ready to get a car, Because what they were doing, they were younger guys, they would just get cars, wholesale them or whatever, and then, you know, they would put them on lots on the corner, whatever, for sale, you know what I mean?

So then they built that up, and then they got a little dealership. Right. Also, at the time, things were changed in Las Vegas, where the showrooms were going from a matri-D, where you go in a showroom and you were just giving them like 80 bucks to get ringside. The bigger the tip, the better the seat. Well, that was changing and going to a model of tickets where you had an assigned seat, sort of like a concert. even in the showrooms, we're going to assign seating. So that opened up an opportunity to do tickets. Now, I had done, you know, when I was younger, you know, what they call scalping tickets, you know,

I would get some money from my parents, buy a bunch of Rolling Stone tickets for $15, sell them for $25 or whatever, make a few bucks. And, you know, I'd do a little bit out on the side, you know, when I was younger just to make some money. So I knew a little bit about how it worked. So we started doing that. So we got a business, you know, it's basically selling tickets for all the various shows. And also Zig Fried and Roy came popular. They're at the Mirage.

Mirage is just open in like early 90. So we got doing that and then got into golf, golf tea times. You know, at the time golf there, it was very popular, still is in Vegas. But they had two systems there. If you were a local, you would pay, say the green fee was 84 outside resident or tourists,

but a local, anybody with a Nevada ID would be $60. And a guest from out of state would pay $80, right? Because they just paid more. so I went to the golf course and said hey can you give me the $60 rate for all my people I will only charge them you know the extra 20 and you know that will be our cut and then we would pay commission of people so we started making money just basically all things in Vegas right right so we're doing that for a while and doing pretty well I'd had a apartment you know living in life but I was still on probation and parole whatever you want to

call it and people had told me that I trusted when I got it was still in jail they said You've got to make a payment on that probation, on the restitution, the probation, because they will, you know, violate your probation. He said, even if the payment's supposed to be 150 and you only mail them 25 a month, just something to say, I'm making an effort. Well, I did that for time, and then I'd get pissed off and fuck these people, there's all this money and stuff. It wouldn't pay it, and then they'd hassle me.

So anyway, I kept pushing and pushed it, and they violated me for not paying the probation, the restitution. So also, there's a little caveat to that. to, I was in California when I was supposed to be in Nevada without getting a travel pass. You know what I mean? And I got into a fight with a girl there. Cop show up. And this is right after O.J. and all that stuff.

No, that wasn't O.J. But anyways, they were calling, it was then back in California, Southern California, if somebody called the cops, somebody's going to jail. Right. Didn't even matter if nothing happened. Somebody's going to jail. And usually nine out of ten times it was the guy, right? So we get into this just argument. She calls the cops.

the cops come so they take me off you know then she tells them oh he's on probation she just ratted me out gave him my wallet that had the probation officer's card in and all that so i'm in jail i'm thinking i'll just get out because nothing really happened then all of a sudden i find out i got a hold from california they they said because they called me and said well who's this probation officer in nevada oh shit what does she do she just like just screwed me so now i'm violated i'm just violated in a several different ways right So then they get me back to, they let me out, but I had to go back to Phoenix, to Arizona, right? So then they reinstate my probation, right?

So then I had to move back to Arizona because they wouldn't do the interstate comeback. He said, no, you violated all that. We're going to let you back out, but you're going to have to stay here in Arizona. So I've got a life somewhere else. I don't want to live here. I don't know anybody, don't have a job here. I don't have anything here. Why would I want to live here?

So they forced me to do that. And it just all fell apart. So while I was supposed to be getting an apartment, getting my act together out on probation, reinstated, you know, I just fell off. I started drinking and I was partying, got busted trying to buy some coke from somebody on some street where I shouldn't have been.

Cops were watching it. So then I get arrested for that. So now I'm done. Now they just say, you're a fuck up. You're just, you know, I blew it in like less than 60 days. violated now two or three times, blah, blah, right? So they're violated me on that second charge, the probation charge, right? Because the other one, the 22, all that time had served, right?

Right. So, but it was still the five-year probation. And also what upset me is the five years was almost up, you know, because I was out almost five years. And then they come at me and say, oh, well, if you haven't paid all the restitution, we extend it for three more years. And then that's when I kind of just said, well, F, you guys. So that's how it all started.

So now I'm violated on that second charge of the five years. So they wound up giving me seven years. It was supposed to only be a five-year sentence. That's what I said in the paperwork. But the judge didn't like the idea that I didn't take it serious enough and enhanced it by two more years. So they gave me seven. But she also knew that I would only have to do half

because it was still under that old law. So now I'm back in jail, back in prison after five years, basically, with a seven-year sentence, I've been done nothing wrong to go to jail, or, you know, other than that little thing with a chick, but didn't touch her. It was nothing. But I'm now got a seven-year number or seven-year sentence, right? So I go back through the whole thing. I'm back in jail.

Five years, I had to work with him a business, had things going on, wasn't doing anything criminal-wise, anything scam-wise. And now I'm back in prison, literally in prison with seven-year sentence. Where the same shit, it's all the same regurgitated stuff, just the violation of probation, right? And now I'm looking at seven years. So now, what am I going to do? You know, because I was screwed. So I just had to suck it up and do it like everybody else, right? So this time I wound up spinning about, out of that seven,

I spent at least about just over four years. So from the time I fully got violated and never got back out again to the day I walked out free was about four years. So during that four years, you know, I started out at a minimum. I had a medium yard and, you know, the dorm lifestyle and all that, you know, all the noise, all the stuff. And, you know, wound up getting down to a minimum yard. And while I was there, I just started helping people doing legal work.

You know, I was a little older, you know, I'd been through that first time. So I started doing legal work for people, helping guys that, like, child support and stuff like that, helping get modifications to reduce the payment because they were in jail. It was just basically formed. You had to learn how to fill out, how to typewriter, types it all of. You know, whatever I could do. do to just help other people out, you know, and not be hassled with, you know, and some of the other people, you know, everybody's racist and grouped up in there. So some of the more higher up white guys

if they needed some help, you know, I would help them do their paperwork. Obviously, would not charge them, you know, and just kind of keeping a good graces. Just keep my mouth shut as much as I could, you know, and just get along, you know what I mean? So I went up doing it. It sucked, but I wound up doing it. And then when I got out, I was only on probation for, or parole for like about less than six months. Because right at that time, they were all of a sudden found themselves overcrowded. So they started letting people out earlier. So they re-computated your time and all that. Right. So by the time they let me out, I only had to do like four months on parole and I was done. They could not do anymore. So it finally went away. The probation went away. The restitution, miraculously, went away.

Because sometimes they would put it on your credit report. You know what I mean? I found that out. but they never did. I think so much time had passed at that point because now we're into 2002 when I got released on that four years I wound up doing on the seven was October of 2002 and I'd went in about, let's call it, June of, what was it, 98? You know what I mean, basically. And, you know, now I'm out, you know, in my 30s and, you know, back to square one, you know. Right. And now was, you know, 2002, October of 2002. So up to today, you know, it's all been good, you know, because it was done. They were finally off me. They never hit me up for the money anymore. Once I was off

that, parole, it was less than six months. It all just ended. It was just done. It's never come up. Well, they couldn't. It was all, they ran out of dust they could do to me. I only had the two charges. I already fulfilled the one charge. And the second charge, they violated the probation and sent me to prison. I fulfilled that time. And then with the, the, the, the reducement and time that they gave me because the new laws and stuff they're passing and get people out. I exhausted you did the number. Right. You know, so there was no more they could do. So finally it was over. And then basically that leads us up today where I've just been living my life, you know, got into real estate, you know, doing some investments, doing some other stuff, you know,

they made some money and, you know, been able to be in a pretty good place in life at 57. But yeah, it was what I went through for what I got and ill-gotten money was, that was the most expensive of money I've ever worked for, ever earned, ever put in my pocket in my whole life to date. What happened with your dad? He got out. Yeah, no, he got out a little bit before me when I was doing that second, you know, part. And he was out. Try to even contact me in jail while he was in jail and I was in jail because I came back and they had this family thing where you could write letters back and forth to family. I'm like, what the hell I want to talk to you for, man? You know, he's giving me some advice or whatever. I go, what the fuck do I want your siege advice?

you know, blank off, you know what I mean? So I just wrote that one letter back just to get my piece out and never spoke to him again. And then I'd been out for about, I thought I was in 2002, I think in 2004, he died. So I don't know how much blow he did, you know, because I really don't know. But he died on the operating table of heart surgery.

So I don't know. I think he was only like pushing 59. He's only 20 years older. Actually 19 and a half years older than me. So, yeah, he's gone. which was a great thing because that guy always lingered around you know he would always be just lingering you know what him fathers yeah because you never knew what the half he was going to try and do right and so it was when my mom called and said your dad's dead i said don't play games like that you go know he's dead i said you're kidding me he's dead and i was like won the lotto i just started laughing and no tears were shed but tears were shed a bit tear of joy i hated the guy even more at that point you know right you know i did what i did and i could have ran at the first get-go yeah So I'm not saying I was completely victimized, but I was used and abused on the deal. Maybe I allowed it in one way or another, but he got four more out of it the night that I can guarantee you that.

So that's it in a nutshell. So the moral of the story is stay on the straight and arrow. It's a much better life. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, that was some expensive money. You know what I mean? Because, I mean, I literally did just shy of four or five, six, just shy of like six and a half years, almost seven years, all together.

and then five years on probation in between, you know, the 22 months, just almost to the day, five years of probation, and then another, you know, almost four years. So it was a lot for just basically paper crimes. I mean, you know, wrong as it is, not trying to make excuses, totally wrong, don't condone it. You know, not boasting about it. It may seem like I am, but it's just not worth it, man. If there's a moral of this story, if anything this podcast can do, don't do it. Because that's that saying, if you can't do the crime, don't do, if you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Yeah. I can't do the time. Because sometimes now I see, like, shows. You know, I was watching on Netflix with this girl that Orange is the New Black, these chicks who are in prison and a female prison. And I get anxiety just watching. Some of it's almost like close to being true. Right. And it's like, I know.

I couldn't imagine being in a dorm with a bunch of idiots yelling and screaming and all that. I mean, it's just, I would just probably kill myself. I mean, there's no way I could do the time. No way. I mean, obviously you'd have to grind it out and do it. But you know what I'm saying? Do you want to? At 57, there's no way. It's no good. No. I don't know how people pull it off in today's world because everything's so easy. I mean, like with some of what I deal with, you know, the underwriting, I mean, they used to you'd have to some supporting docs and stuff you'd have to sit in. Underwriting doesn't need any of that. I mean, they look everything up. They can see a picture of the place. They can go on social websites and see the business and their advertisements. what they sell, picture of the business, you know, see it as something legitimate running business. I mean, so much is easily verifiable nowadays.

Yeah. You know, I mean, it's a whole different world. I know people out there scamming and doing things now, but I don't even know how heck you do it. The one beauty of back then was most of it was, you know, not in the dark, but it was just harder to verify. And you could just get away with, it seemed like you could get away with more just because it wasn't such technology wasn't where it is today.

Right. If that makes any sense. You know what I mean? So, yeah, I couldn't pull off it anymore. Like right now, you said, hey, I got a little idea. You want to explore it? I'd be like, all right, bro, I got to go. I'll talk to you after the podcast.

Yeah. Yeah, it's, in some ways, it's easier, and in some ways it's much harder. Yeah. You know, it just depends. And the skill level you have to have, depending on the crime, is, it can be very extensive now. Yeah. Well, because it's even hard, like, sometimes, you know, you're just trying to help the deal along. And you're totally

legit. You're not trying to do anything wrong. But you just want to clean up the app a little bit. So when you, it's, you know, it's not scribble. Maybe you can understand it or maybe one thing. You're just trying to clean it up. You're not changing any numbers. You're not doing anything. Just cleaning it up a little bit, knowing what underwriting wants to see. Right. You know what I mean? And sometimes you get a little nervous

doing, you know, doing that. Or somebody forgot to sign one thing. Right. If I send it back to him and do all that, how long is that going to take? Is it going to fall apart? Is it now, you know, or do you just, you know, you know, to get it,

you didn't change anything. Now, it wouldn't do that, don't condone it, but sometimes you think, you know, wouldn't it be easier just do this,

you know? So I don't know, some people live with that infliction and other people never had that pop into their brain. Maybe it's just how my brain's wired. But even today, you still sometimes think,

wouldn't do it, wouldn't act on it, you know what I mean, but, you know. I hear you. Yeah, I know. Well, all right,

listen, are you good? I'm good. Yeah, no, I appreciate it. Hopefully filled some time for you. Kept it interesting. No, this is great. This is great. This is a good podcast. Now, probably not as good as your story. That five-hour story of yours I heard, man. I just was listening to that. It took me a couple nights to listen to it.

I fall asleep, you know, stuff on YouTube or whatever. But you were telling it, I was listening to him, go, so many might be listening going, that guy's full of BS. I was listening to go, that guy's spot on. He knows what he's talking about. Yeah, I'm shocked how many similarities there are to, you know, your story and and my story yeah it's just a little different product if you will i think it was all still the same deal yeah it's just a little bit different uh time span uh the difference between the the system but it's funny you know you took advantage of these these little kind of loopholes and a little bit of

paperwork and and the next thing you know you've got you're walking around with an asset that people are dying to take from you know hey i appreciate you guys watching if you like the video please subscribe to the channel please hit the bell so you get notified also check out my clips channel It's Matthew Cox Clips. Also, I have a Patreon. It would be great if you join the Patreon. It's like 10 bucks. Really appreciate it.

Thank you. See ya.