Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - The Secret To Happiness In Prison

Episode Date: September 1, 2023

The Secret To Happiness In Prison

like you're not going to buy happiness you're not going to you're not going to find happiness happiness is not in Atlanta Georgia it's not in you know it's not in Los Angeles California you're not going to find it somewhere like it's it's within yourself it's being okay with your own thoughts and thinking correctly and realizing what you can change and what you can't change and being okay with what you can't change or at least you have a purpose you could put up with any crap that goes along with it because it's it's irrelevant And I remember saying to her, I'm like, because I enjoy writing true crime and I like it. And so none of this other stuff matters anymore, especially going to prison, you know, going from the person I was to sleeping in a bunk bed for 13 years, you know, you realize very quickly you could deal with anything.

And by the time I'm done, I realize, you know, that all that stuff that was so important prior to prison doesn't really matter. Hey, this is Matt Cox, and we're going to be doing an interview with the, I keep thinking prison stoics, but it's, I think it's called Wisdom Unlocked, is the name of their organization. Is that right? Yes. Okay. And it's Santara and Kai. And Kai's in the UK. I don't know where Centura is, but we'll figure it out.

And thank you for checking out the channel and the interview. Centera, where are you? I'm in Los Angeles. All right. And how? And so what is wisdom unlocked? Wisdom Unlocked is a nonprofit that provides in-prison and re-entry programming based on stoic principles, so the philosophy of stoicism. Okay.

Do you guys go into prisons or? Yes. We run programs at presently at the Central California Women's Facility in Chalchilla, California, which is the largest women's prison in the world. and we've run some workshops based on the dichotomy of control, which is basically a fancy way of focusing on what you can control and what you can and where we should be putting our energy versus where it's wasted, right? So we've run two workshops in March and two workshops in April, and our workshops have reached 240 women so far.

How did you, how did you and Kai end up connecting? I'll take them here. So I've often, I'm an academic, I work at university, and I've often criticise academics for having their ivory tower, being really comfortable, basically wandering around with their brain in their head, not looking at the real world, shuffling bits of paper, turning the odd student off, or maybe that's less so these days, and not making an impact, not using their knowledge to drive change, change that we need. to help people grow, not just get them a job, but help them actually grow. So I was giving a talk to the Los Angeles Stoic Group, because we have a lot of local

Stoic groups, and at some point during the call, Sintara challenged me and said, well, what are you doing for the prison population? And I was like, nothing. I know nothing about the prison population. We don't even use the same terminology in the UK. She said, well, shouldn't we do something about the prison population? So I said, well, let's see. I'll ring you after this, after the LA Stoic conversation is over,

and let's see what we can do. So she challenged me, she threw the gaultlet and said, these people are really vulnerable. They're probably the most vulnerable and ignored group that we have in the United States. And they need stories. They need a philosophy that you can use when life is terrible, or you think life is terrible. When you're in your darkest moment,

and that's my argument all the time. If a philosophy cannot change your life when you need change, then it is not helpful. It's academic and it's theory and it's nice to put on your CV, but this is not what socialism is. Storiasism is for empowerment, it's for the impoverished, it's for people who understand that they can take the reins of their own life. And so in the prison population, people don't know that. They are told what to eat, when to eat, how to eat, when to sleep, when to go to a certain location. And Sintara said, Stoism can change that conversation. It can change the mindset. And that's how we started two years ago. And you're going into

prisons in Los Angeles. So far, women's prisons. Yes, in the Central Valley of California. And what we also do is we also provide transportation to women that are released from prison and have no ride to either their families or their transitional housing. We also provide them with a ride. We provide them with a backpack with hygiene articles. So when they come out, they have something because ownership of something when you're going into a transitional housing is really important. And we also provide them with a meal and a conversation.

And we will pick them up wherever they are. My last pickup two weeks ago, I drove 646 miles. And we do this because we do this because we, We believe in the work and we understand the importance of being greeted with a warm heart and open arms, ready to embrace someone that's reentering into their community. It's funny because I would think that California would have plenty of programs for state inmates. You know, I mean, they seem very, you know, a very liberal state. So you would think that they would already have a lot of, but I mean, I don't know. I'm not sure about their mindset, you know, what they're, how they're leaving prison.

So they do have programs. The state of California, as you pointed out, is really great in providing in prison programs. But they're not providing programs that tell you what's right about you. When you provide NA programs, AA programs, a lot of these programs tell you what's wrong with you. right? They talk about dysfunctional thinking. This is the language that they are using. And stoicism, we tell them what's right with them. And we provide them with a toolbox to navigate their everyday challenges as they navigate the yard, as they navigate the chow hall, and all of these issues that they may have with correctional officers, with fellow with their bunkeys or fellow

women that they're incarcerated with and we provide them with tools to better navigate those challenges that will improve the relationship with themselves with their families with their friends and you just don't have that type of program we have the only program in the state of california that provides a program based on philosophy and on top of that based on stoic philosophy okay how long so when you go in how long do you teach these classes is it one class is it Is there material you provide? Yes. So it's two workshops.

Each workshop is three hours. We provide two in a day. So it's about, for me, it's about seven hours of teaching for each day. And we provide them with everything because we understand that even within a prison population, there's a system of inequality, right? Do you have money on your books? Do you have money in your account? Some people do and some don't.

And what we believe is also in Stoic philosophy, it's about accessibility, right? And we want to level the playing field. So we provide pens for every participant, we provide notebooks for every participant, and we provide a workbook for every participant. So when you come in, no matter how much money you have or you don't, everybody's on the same level playing field. And that's a very powerful thing. And we see the response when the ladies walk into the room and they realize, wow, I've got this and this is mine, and I get to keep this. So are you trying to, the program,

well, one, are you following these people? How long are you following them for? So they participate in our workshops and everyone gets our address. So they write to us. We've gotten some wonderful letters. And what I also do is that, you know, everybody gets assigned a number when they're incarcerated.

And there is an app that I use. to reach out to them to see if they have a tablet. A lot of prisons are now allowing tablets within their institutions. And I reach out and I check in with them. And I thank them for participating and make myself available for any questions. Let me know when you get out. We'll pick you up. I've received a letter.

A lady's getting out in eight years. And she told me she wants a ride in eight years. And we get calls from family members and emails from family members. So there is this constant interaction because for us, it's not about out of sight, out of mind. I'm not going to pop in and pop out and then we move on to the next one. We want to encourage that constant interaction. And especially if they want more of the stoic philosophy, we are here to mentor them, to guide them along their stoic journey. Where are you located in California?

I'm in Los Angeles, more particularly in Glendale, California. okay um have you ever heard of the minimalists yes but broadly okay well they're they're they're in i did their um i did their podcast they probably i'm sure they would i'm sure i can see stoicism going you know going fitting in kind of a you know dovetailing into their whole their whole philosophy i was going to say um i can when this is over i can give you their contact information They'll probably, probably love to have you on their show. So what is the goal? The goal is the goal to get this into, you know, men and women and men's programs throughout the entire state and then hopefully end up going into other states or the federal system or.

So can I take this? Absolutely. So the goal is to each men, but it was a statement. A lot of people think stuism is like toxic masculinity, right? Which is a phrase that isn't even accurate. that it's a male thing, that it has no value for women, that it's about being like in Silicon Valley and making your money and not feeling so bad about it, basically. When we make a statement, the storiasism is for everybody who wants to learn stories, providing that you are able to sit down and just listen for five minutes. If you're not able to do that, then it's probably not for you, right? We need to be able to tell you something.

So it was powerful to say, women also can use these tools. We can see from the letters, we can see from their response that it is not a male philosophy. It is not for rich people. This is the New York Times opinion about tourism, although they've never spoken to us. They've not spoken to the people who are doing this kind of work. So we wanted to make a statement. Also because women's prisons are more neglected by the general public than the male population's prisons. For obvious reasons that men tend to...

to commit the crimes that are more, quote, quote, newsworthy. People tend to know more about a very famous case involving men. Even, you know, from the 80s, you've had very famous cases of American football players. So women's prisons are neglected, and I think it does see that in society, you often see that men get a lot of attention, that women get less, and there's different reasons for that. So that happens, it mirrors itself in the prison population. And we wanted to say, let's test it, let's see if these women respond in a way that helps them, empowers them.

And the results that we've had so far, we are going to analyze the questionnaires that we've done, but it indicates that, yes, storism has value for women, which a lot of people have questions, like publicly questioned, whether storyism, because it's the philosophy of Seneca and Marcus Aurelius is useful for women. Yes, we will go into men's prisons, but we're just focusing on women at the moment because we're just showing that it is a philosophy for those that need it. It doesn't matter what you have between your legs. That's really irrelevant. Okay. I was going to say, like I listen to the, you know, on YouTube, they have all these videos like that you know, you know, there's there's the stoat like I think there's a whole a whole channel called stoicism and they do. they read off quotes from you know just like you said you know marcus aurelius and um gosh i don't even know

that all the different epititis yeah yeah all these other cicerro yeah and you know they just have someone reading them them off and i think sometimes they briefly you know they don't well they don't really need that much explanation but you know i've seen um um some people who have gone into them um and explained what so it's stoicism is so but what would you say what is the overall goal that you're trying to you know you're trying to say you're focusing on or you're saying you're focusing on um what's right about those those people but but to me when I listen to the videos you know the stoicism quotes and the philosophy it's more about it's more about being okay with with

Being okay with yourself, being okay with making the right decisions, being okay with, I don't want to necessarily say less, but more or less saying that, you know, gaining things isn't, like you're not going to buy happiness. You're not going to, you're not going to find happiness. Happiness is not in Atlanta, Georgia. It's not in, you know, it's not in Los Angeles, California. You're not going to find it somewhere. Like it's, it's within yourself. It's being okay with your own thought. and thinking correctly and realizing what you can change and what you can't change and being okay with what you can't change or at least changing your thoughts on those things that you can't change making yourself okay with them and that that's my interpretation that's probably pretty you know a bad one but what is you what is your what is your interpretation or what are you trying to get across to this is dark can I take this one so because of this one of these is one of my pet haze as an academic that we that the focus of storism is built cultivating the kind of character that can have the that whatever happens to you you can face it you don't have to

be okay with it right no one said that you should be okay with being treated very poorly in a prison system this is a very sort of uh what we're called in the uk very middle class way of looking at because really nothing that happens to you is generally speaking terrible from a system point of view. So it's about building the kind of character that has the kind of broad shoulders so that other people can stand on them, to have the mentality of saying, this is crap, this is terrible. This prison system sucks, but I am not a victim. I am not a victim, and that's the difference. I'm not going to have a victim mentality, but I'm not so silly to realize that think that, oh well, that's life. That's not, Stodosom is not passive. So in my book that I wrote with Lynn, I just Constant

course called Being Better, Storism for a World Welf Living in, we dedicate a whole chapter to talk about fate. Now, a more fatty is something that people say, love your fate. But Stoism is more complicated than that, because they say the strikes, fate happens through you, not to you. You are not a victim. So when he says, we love your fate, we kind of think, oh, I'll just hold my hands in the end, go, oh, I love my fate. No, grab fate, wrestle with fate, work with fate, make change in your life. So when Santara says, what's right with you, what she's saying is telling them they have the capacity in their own head. This is the only safe space between your ears that you have. No one's going to give it to you in prison. No one's going to give it. And you have the capacity

to grab that and to make it yours. And no matter what anybody else does to you, you can choose how you respond. And that doesn't mean that what they did to you is okay or acceptable. or reasonable, but that you are your own person. So, for example, the Stoics, although they get a lot of criticism for things like not abolishing slavery, they were one of the first philosophers to say, slaves are their own person. They are not things. Because in the Roman world, they were called Rez. Things are like, no, a slavery is their own person. They are, have a personhood. So that's what we're in stealing. That's what's right with you. You have the force. You have the actions. And although you've made some poor decisions, those decisions do not have to be carried forward into your future.

There are consequences through those actions that you did 10 years ago, but you still have within you, everything you need to turn the ship around. And that ship may be in really stinky waters, and that's maybe not okay, but you are going to navigate that ship. You are going to help yourself get out of that. No one else can. That's what we're speaking with a YouTube clips. Using forgeries and bogus identities, Matthew B. Cox, one of the most ingenious con men in history, built America's biggest banks out of millions.

Despite numerous encounters with bank security, state, and federal authorities, Cox narrowly, and quite luckily, avoided capture for years. Eventually, he topped the U.S. Secret Services Most Wanted us, and led the U.S. Marshals, FBI, and Secret Service on a three-year chase, while jet-setting around the world with his attractive female accomplices. Cox has been declared one of the most prolific mortgage fraud con artists of all time by CNBC's American Greene. Bloomberg Business Week called him the mortgage industry's worst nightmare,

while Dateline NBC described Cox as a gifted forger and silver-tongued liar. Playboy magazine proclaimed his scam was real estate fraud, and he was the best. Shark in the housing pool is Cox's exhilarating first-person account of his stranger-than-fiction story. Available now on Amazon and Audible. And I also think if I may dovetail on this, is this is why we decided to start with our dichotomy of control workshops. That piece, that piece of Stoic philosophy is probably the most life-changing element in Stoic philosophy when it's applied correctly. Because it can provide, and it does provide those tools that will empower you to even do that mind shift within yourself. Because sometimes we're miserable because our thoughts are miserable.

And Marcus Aurelius tells us the quality of your life is determined by the quality of your thoughts. So for us, it's very important to change that mind shift, to, as Kai said, to not be that victim, but to actually realize that you can take ownership in your own mental and physical well-being. And this type of stuff isn't taught in other prison programs, which is why it's so powerful. I received a letter that I shared with Kai this week where a woman says what she experienced in our workshop was quite different from what she has experienced in other workshops and programs offered at that institution because we are engaging them. We ask for their feedback. We have some lively discussions where we really see that these ideas after

three hours are already taking roots. So this is something that we're very passionate about. And for Stoics, we just don't sit in the Epicurean garden where it's nice and cozy, eating grapes and drinking wine all day. It's our duty to go into the cosmopolists. It's our duty to go into these communities and into these prisons to at least provide these tools that we believe are so powerful, that have changed my life personally, which is how I came to Stoicism. So for us, it's not just something, oh, this is a great thing. We see it as our duty. to actually do this within our stoic framework and our stoic philosophy what do you think is being taught that's not right right now like what is what is the you know yours is yours is your philosophy is

different but what is the current philosophy that you think is being pushed the current philosophy right now that i am seeing i can only speak for for what what i'm seeing and i've been programs in adult prison since 2017, men and women prisons, is getting them to the parole board, right? We're working a lot on insight. We're working a lot on empathy. And that's wonderful because those are very important things. There are also a lot of practical programs that teach them skills, right, whether it's the welding, whether it's, and then we have yoga programs and gardening programs. And these are wonderful programs. So it's not about wrong programs being taught, we looked at what is missing, what is not being taught. So it's not

whether it's right or wrong, but we really wanted to look at what are we not seeing and where can we take what's offered to the next level. And what's not being offered is philosophy. It's not stoicism. That's not being offered. And this is where we saw our niche and said, let's try this. We've been very successful at it from the feedback that we've got. Have you looked at the drug programs that are being taught? Have you gone over the KELM for the drug programs? No, I have not. I've talked to participants that are in the drug programs that are in the drug programs,

that are in the NA programs, AA programs, and we have criminal and gang members anonymous, the CGA programs. Again, these programs are telling you what's wrong with you, right? And you have to think about if someone's been in prison for 15. years, does that person really need an NA program or an AA program, someone that's been sober for 15 years? Or are we just going to that program to check that box, to get to the parole board and to say, hey, I've got the certificate. Does that program really aid in building a good moral character and those shoulders for others to stand on? Right. So it's looking at what do these

programs provide. They have value. Absolutely. We're not saying that they don't have value. We're saying that our programs add a different value to what's being offered. I would say, Matthew, part of these and Storism, you, we say this again in the book being better, but when we have this saying in English, like, put yourself in my shoes, right? Which is a really stupid saying because my shoes don't fit your feet. Storism is not about putting myself in your shoes. It's about looking at my situation and making my own steps based on changing my thinking and understanding that I have power if I choose to act on it.

So there's nothing wrong with AA if you are in a situation where you are physically so intoxicated that you can't choose your own steps. But there is a very sort of everybody has the same 12 steps when we get there together. Historism, you create your own journey. I can't tell you your steps because I'm not Matthew Cox. I wasn't born where you were born. I'm not the same age as you because when people say, well, I know what it's like to be 19.

Yes, but I don't know what it's like to be 19 in 2023. I have no idea. You know, I'm older than that. So it's saying, I can't tell you your steps. I can show you how to work out what your steps should be. But if I tell you, what I create is dependency and you have this cycle where some people leave prison and then they say, but now I don't know what to do because no one's telling me what to do and they go back in, right? Because they just go back into their old ways. So one of the

programs we want to launch, we will do if we raise enough funding is action wisdom, new ways to explain to people on a longer term program. You create your own steps. You are not dependent on anybody for what you think and how you act. You might be dependent on other things, but not that so that when they leave, they have a new process of thinking that is not related to depending on what Dr. Kyle White and says about something. Because what I say, it might be insightful, but it might be absolutely irrelevant. And only you, Matthew, would know that. But when you have other programs, it's like, well, if you listen to me and do what I say, it's going to really help you. And so it's like, if you listen to me and weigh it up and throw away what's

useless and make your own steps, that's going to help you because Kai can't help you. There's nothing I can do. Even if he holds your hand, you have to take the steps. And he's holding your hand may actually prevent you from taking the very steps you need because he cannot recognize your path. So that's what something we say to them. And that's why they feel empowered because they're like, you're asking me what I think. You're asking me how I want to act. So in the, in the reentry program, Sinty's first question is, what do you want to eat? Which, Sinty, you can tell Matthew in his audience, what people? say when you ask them about what do you want to eat yes thanks guy this is a really empowering

question for them and obviously sometimes it's a question they haven't been asked in 20 years or in 15 years depending on how long they've been incarcerated so that whole question of where do you want to eat what do you want to eat and not putting any limits on that you know if it's a burger, it's a burger. If you want surf and turf, it's going to be surf and turf. But it's that first initial step and that first initial question that reminds them, I have a choice outside of prison. And when we give them that backpack, they're so surprised to have that first piece

and they open it and they see all of these wonderful things that we provide for them so that they can take those first steps and then we have these wonderful conversations in the car and that's really where the magic happens and we never ask them why they are incarcerated it's none of our business what's our business is and what we want to help them with is where we are today we're going to meet you where you are today whether that's at the prison gate whether that's within the prison, whether that's in the community. The only thing that matters is, are you willing or wanting to strive on being a better person using the tools that Stoicism can give you and making better choices for yourself?

And the powerful thing about Stoicism is that when it's taken on and when it's internalized, a lot of these stressors that some people feel upon release, just aren't there, because you have that toolbox to navigate these situations. And this is why we also feel that stoic teachings can lower recidivism, which is another reason why we are going to be striving to teaching these programs in the communities with the formerly incarcerated. So if they weren't participating in our programs while they were incarcerated, let's catch them when they're in their communities and talk about what stressors are you feeling,

now when it comes to employment, financial stability, financial security, and let's see how we can help you, as Kai says, map out your journey using Stoic tools, but only they can map out that journey. Okay. Yeah, when you were talking, I was thinking, I took a, have you ever heard of an ARDAP, the residential, what was it, residential drug abuse program in federal prison? in. That's what they teach. They basically have a program similar to that in almost every state. They've got, you know, and it was for, you know, it's for drugs, but you don't learn anything about drugs in there. Like, it really has nothing. It's a behavior modification program is, is really what it is. And, you know, you live in a special unit. It takes about nine months. And you go through all these different, all these different classes and there's all these different steps. I actually took the program twice. because I dropped out both times.

So, you know, I got to, I actually only took the program because if you, if, because while I was incarcerated, they were trying to move me from a low security prison, which was near Tampa where my mother could come see me every two weeks. Or they wanted to move me to a camp, which was like three hours away. And I would never be able to see my mom. And I had another year or so to go. So, but if you went into the program, then they put a lock on you and they could move you. And the lock was supposed to be good for a year. So I went in the program,

took about four or five months for them to put the lock on me. As soon as they did, I dropped out. And then three months later, they came back and they said, hey, we've removed the lock. We're going to move you. And I said, no, it's supposed to be good for a year. And they said, I know it is, but, you know, we really have a big push to push people to camps. You should be at a camp. I said, oh, man, listen, I got a problem. I'm going back to the program. You can't do that. So I checked back in the program. They put the lock back on me and I stayed until almost the end the second time and then quit. And then I went to a halfway house. But it's funny in those programs, I used to always say, even though they teach a lot in those. It was actually

a great program. Like I really don't have anything. I mean, I joke about the program a lot. I've and you know it isn't straight it just it's insanity that some of the some of the people teaching it obviously the inmates are in are a lot of them are you know they're of course inmates in general if you have kind of a like I look at most things as being comical I tend to laugh at things that aren't probably a lot of people say that's not funny I'm like it's not funny because you're taking life too seriously you know because you're you're looking to be offended there's so many people out there trying to be offended about everything and it's like that you know i have to laugh about that because i'd rather laugh about it and cry about it but i used to always say

that that the goal of art app was to convince the inmates to go get a job at walmart and to be okay with it and i used to and so dr smith which was this the phd that ran the program she would go get come out and she'd be giving us all a speech and you know she'd look at me And she said, well, Cox, what are you doing? You're grinning or you're, and I'd say, I'm just thinking I'm not working at Walmart. I mean, I understand what you're going for here. And I know you want me to work there and be okay with it. I'm not going to work.

I mean, I might start off at Walmart, but I'm not going to work there long. And this is a woman that I was writing. I had written a couple of stories. I got some guys into Rolling Stone magazine. I'd optioned their life rights. I was writing true crime articles while I was in prison. So I'm writing books while I'm in prison. I got a book deal.

I actually got two book deals while I was in prison. I was paid in advance. I was part of the option for someone's life rights and their film rights. And so I'm writing these books in prison. And she's telling me, you know, I don't know why you're, do you know what urban novels are? So urban novels are a novel, by definition, is fiction. And an urban novel is about life in the urban city, right? Like drug dealers, almost all of these books are written by black drug dealers about drug dealing.

And it's nothing but shooting people and selling drugs and killing police officers. It was just, it's just they're horrible. And so she used to say, Dr. Smith would say, well, you're wasting your time writing those urban novels. I mean, you really need to be thinking about how you're going to get back on your feet. And I used to just say, well, they're not urban novels. I'm writing true crime. And that's a completely different genre. And she would constantly refer to it as, or them as urban novels.

And that it was a waste of time. And I needed to worry about what I was going to be doing when I got out of prison. And I said, and you're absolutely right. And I said, I know what I'm going to do. I'm going to go work at Walmart. I say, I'm going to go work at McDonald's. And I'm going to rent someone's spare room. And I'm going to continue writing.

And maybe that writing will someday pay my bills. And maybe it will never pay my bills. And I'll stay in that person's spare room. And I'll continue to work at McDonald's. And I'm okay with that. You know, because, and I'm sure one of the two of you must know, I don't know who said this. but I remember I heard it the other, probably six months or a year ago. It was a stoic quote, and it was where the person said, like, somebody, like, the person with a, is it,

basically a person, they say somebody like, it's something like, if you have a why you can with, you can put up with any something. If you have a why, you can bet with any how, though I'm not sure if you have a purpose. Right. If you have a purpose, and to me, it's like, if you have a purpose, you can, put up with any crap that goes along with it because it's it's irrelevant and i and i remember saying to her i'm like because i i enjoy writing true crime and i like it and so none of this other stuff matters anymore especially going to prison you know going from the person i was to sleeping on a in a bunk bed

for 13 years you know you realize very quickly you could deal with anything and and by the time I'm done, I realize, you know, that all that stuff that was so important prior to prison doesn't really matter, you know, like that's not, none of that gave me nearly the amount of joy as I received from just writing, you know, and finishing an article and finishing a story. And it really wasn't even, sometimes I was disappointed when I would finish. It was more, more interested in ordering the documents and putting everything together and figuring out the timeline and how do I say this and this way and you know what I'm saying that was more and then you'd get done and you're kind of like eh bent is the story of john j boziak's

phenomenal life of crime inked from head to toe with an addiction to strippers and fast catalanx bozziac was not your typical computer geek he was however one of the most cunning scammers counterfeiters identity thieves and escape artists alive and a major thorn in the side of of the U.S. Secret Service as they fought a war on cyber crime. With a savant-like ability to circumvent banking security and stay one step ahead of law enforcement, Boziak made millions of dollars in the international cyber underworld, with the help of the Chinese and the Russians. Then, leaving nothing but a John Doe warrant and a cleaned-out bank account in his wake, he vanished.

Boziak's stranger-than-fiction tale of ingenious scams and impossible escapes, of brazen run-ins with the law and secret desires to straighten out and settle down, makes his story a true crime con game that will keep you guessing. Bent. How a homeless team became one of the cybercrime industry's most prolific counterfeiters. Available now on Amazon and Audible. Yeah, it's a good story, but it's over now, and now I have to move on to something else. And so, you know, so a lot of, then, you know, then I, it's funny because then I got out and I started listening to all of this, the stoic, You know, I say videos. I never watch them because, you know, it's just, they just, they flash the words up on the screen and then they fade off and it says, you know, whoever it's from.

And somebody reads it too. So I usually put it on in the background and listen to it. But every once while I'll hear one, I'll be like, wow, like, what a great way of saying that. That's something that I absolutely feel. And, you know, what a great way of presenting it. And what was the quote again? Because you said, I know you. Well, the general quote, I don't believe it is a strike quote, but if you have a why, you can put up with any how.

Right. That's exactly. But there is, I mean, I would say that definitely the stakes would understand that in the sense that if you know what, Seneca says, if you, Seneca's idea of it is, if you don't know which port you want to sell to, no wind is favorable. Right. So if you don't know what you want, it doesn't matter what the wind's doing. And that's why we teach the incarcerated, like, what do you want? Like, you made a point. Like I want to write and she was telling you, but you really want to work in Walmart.

And imagine like if we can get all these resilient people to start thinking and using the resilience, they would change communities. They would come out of prison and they would change communities because they would say, I can deal with a load of crap. You're upset because your takeaway was 25 minutes late. How about that you eat the same crap every day that you don't want to eat? And you're telling me you're upset about if we could get these individuals with the right. mindset, painting their own picture, drawing their own canvas and not being told by people like me, what's best for them? Because I don't know. This is what the Stoics teach me as a Dr. Kai Wang. I don't know what's best for them. All I can do is say, look, here's a canvas.

Storism is working out how to live your life and to make your life worthy of living. It is what the Stoics would call the Out of Living. And I cannot hold your paintbrush. So if we could show or the incarcerated who were willing to listen and willing to do what you were willing to do then we would stop babying them that my frustration is we're bathing all these people which I'm on the toughest hardest people in the world that because of their choices cannot use those strengths in a way that builds and cultivates their character and supports the community so if we can change that to use their very useful skill set resilience strength

Independence, teamwork, right? Some of the best teamwork. Brilliant at communicating. Not necessarily for the right of it reasons. If we could say, look, these skill sets are actually really valuable. You're able to write a lot of information on a tiny piece of paper. That's really valuable. If we can use those skills in the right way, that is powerful.

The problem is we tell them, now, none of that is useful. That's just criminal. No, the application was criminal, but the skills are useful. And that's what we say to them. That's what's right of you. Those skills are useful, but you applied them wrong because you misunderstood what would make you happy. Right.

You thought it was more money, more status. You thought it was rising in the gang. And we're telling you actually what makes you happy is empowering your life to live it to its voice as a proper functioning human being who doesn't need those things. And that to us is the message we tell. Not you're wrong for thinking is you're wrong for thinking that. As I say to Christians, if all I tell you is about sin and you don't look at God,

what are you going to do? You're going to sin more because your focus is on the sin. If you focuses on God as a Christian, then you're going to do things according to God's way, right? So I'm not a Christian, but that's what I would say to somebody. And the Stokes would say the same thing. Where are you looking? Where do you want to go? Which wind are you going to catch? So if I told you what to do, that would be and said that your way of, you know, what you wanted to do was irrelevant, because I think you should be working at Walmart, the Stoics would think that was ludicrous. They'd think that was me having an issue with myself because I'm putting my values or what I expect of you on you,

instead of allowing you to show me what I should be able to expect from you, from your own sort of grappling with your own life, with your own life and your own merit. So this is why we said that there's nothing wrong with certain programs. It's not that I dislike the AA program. It has its place.

But if you've been in prison for 13 years, it probably only had its place for the first six months. And what do you do now? And that's what we found that we had to step in and step up. It's fun. I used to teach the residential real estate class. So I was in prison for bank fraud, but related to real estate. So, you know, I taught the residential real estate class. And it's funny I used to go in there and ask there to be 40 guys in there in the first class.

I would ask, you know, how many guys are here for drugs? You know, 30% of the guys, I mean, I'm sorry, 30 of the guys, sorry, 75% of the guys in the class, at least 70 or 80% are there for drugs. And I used to say, you know, and so, and almost all of them were black guys who were raised in the, in the inner cities. And I used to say, listen, this is like, this is something every one of you guys is going to be, is going to get out, can do, and we'll be able to do it better. than anybody else because you're used to going in those neighborhoods, you're hustlers,

you don't mind knocking on door, you don't, you're not afraid, you don't mind getting rejection, you understand, you know, you understand that you already have the basic premise of I buy something cheap, I sell it for more. You know, it's a product that people want. And your competition in those neighborhoods is very little because nobody else wants to go. Like, if you're a 45-year-old divorcee who just got your real estate license, you don't want to go knock on doors in the projects. Like, that's not. I'm like, so there's nobody, you know, if you're an upper class real estate broker, you know, who's a white guy, you don't want to go in those neighborhoods.

You're scared to go in those neighborhoods. And so I would explain, you know, how it would work and what the benefits were to them and how easy it was to do things like flip condoms. contract or be what they call a bird dog or, you know, there's different things that you can do without a license. You don't need any license for a lot of these things. How to explain to people to do owner financing or there's several different types of financing that you can do and how to get these contracts and how to there's just things that they can do that other people can't do. And listen, I had multiple guys get out and write me letters when I was in

prison and say, bro, I just, can you call me? They put $50 on my books and say, they'd call me, I got a question, and I'd call them, they were going on. And they say, listen to what just happened. And they did, you know, go through and they would do well. But, you know, we were talk about it. And it's funny because like nobody, nobody else was giving them that hope or that understanding that the hustle that got you into prison can very easily be turned into something legitimate. They can make you legitimate money. in the same going back unfortunately into the same neighborhood which they're going to go back into

you know they don't have a choice but they're not going anywhere else there's nobody else you know if they can if they have anybody there for them at all um but yeah it's uh um i was going to say the the real or the um the drug program there were some good things which was about it there were a lot of good things about it but um and one of them was trying to train people how to how to think through their problems because just like you were saying so you go out and you get your job you know you get your job you get a girlfriend you find a place to stay and you think well those are the things I need to survive yeah but the problem is you're still the same person you were when you got those when you got into prison and you're still thinking the

same thing so you don't you don't have rational thinking so when you get into an argument you you're not rational the way you react you know you have a problem with your boss or a or a client or something you don't act rationally you don't act correctly you're your thought your mindset or is still it's still not correct and you still feel entitlement and all of the other things that go along with being a criminal mindset and you end up end up back in prison you're like I don't understand I got a nice girlfriend I got I lived in a nice area I had a decent job i don't understand what happened well i mean you still have criminal thinking you're still not thinking correctly you still think you deserve that everybody owes you something and that you're entitled

and that life is unfair to you and you deserve more and people should be respectful and you know and you react badly when they're not when things don't work out they guys work react badly if they don't change their thought process and i think that's a huge huge part of recidivism is that they get out. They don't get everything back right away. People aren't respectful to them. And they react badly. And before you know it, they start coming in crime again. They're right back in prison. And unfortunately, we've seen that. And you so eloquently lay that out for us. I have seen men and women do a long stretch and then come home. And then within six months in a year, they have fallen back into the old behavioral pattern, parole is violated, and they're back

incarcerated, right? So the other important factor for us is in teaching stoicism in prisons is because partly of that, the incarcerated men and women are going to come home. They're going to be our neighbors. They're going to cut our lawns, bag our groceries, right? They're going to sell us real estate. They're going to be men and women that we come in contact with every day. Why are we not giving them the tools to make the best of the second, third chance. They're coming home. We want them to come home and be the best version of themselves and to be successful for themselves, for their families, for their children, and for their communities. And to start that healing process within their communities. Because when the crime is committed, it doesn't just

affect the person that was at the other end of that crime. It affects families, children's, communities. And if stoicism and our programs and the tools that we provide can help that healing process in that incarcerated setting, that healing process is going to continue when they come home. Right. And that's where they, the heavy lifting really takes place. Well, helping inmates is not a super popular thing with politicians. And if you if you explained it more that, you know, the average inmate costs, you know, what, in the state, probably $25,000 to $35,000 a year in the federal system, about $35,000 a year. And then the loss of income to to the state, it costs, you know, about the averages between what, $10 and $4,000. $15,000 that you don't pay in taxes and sales taxes and all in and taxes across the board so the average intimate costs between $50,000 and $60,000 and has very little education and you're and it's so funny too because so most of them you know a ton of them don't have high school diplomas you know

you're going to spend $12,000 to educate a student and then when he fails school can't get a job is incarcerated, you're going to spend $60,000 a year to incarcerate. I'm like, maybe spend 20 to educate them and then you save yourself 40,000, but people don't think that way. And the recidivism rate is high too. So for every one of these guys that doesn't go back to prison, that's less money that you have to spend to keep them incarcerated. But once again, it's not popular with politicians.

It's just not, it's, they don't mind giving more money for more prisons and more more correctional officers and more law enforcement, but they do mind putting money into a program that would actually help keep them out because, oh, you're helping inmate. You're helping these guys. Well, no, I'm helping everybody. I'm helping society not have to fit the bill to keep these guys

in carcule. If you look at it like that, it makes more sense, but it's not as popular. That's not a popular. So it's hard to get a budget. It's hard to get those types of programs funded. Yeah, in my opinion. Maybe I'm wrong.

I think so, though. That's been something we struggling with, like, one on the other side is to teach, like, people that are in our own community, or the Stoic community, that these people, quote, unquote, not language to strike's reduced, but deserve an opportunity, right? And that's how we say, like, we have a concept in Storism, the circles of concern. It starts with the self and you go out and it has family, you grab that ring, you treat families if they were you, and you go out a bit further in the local community, and you treat the local community if they were your family.

your family and so on and so forth say we have a duty of strikes to bring these people in because basically when you do that when you bring the furthest human out from out towards in what you do is you go on my worst day i could act just as that that individual did and on their best day they could act like me right and then you start to see yourself in the humanity and the humanity in the self and we've raised money so far by doing events and the the strike community through like grassroots like connections of ours have raised the money and every penny has gone to actually funding our programs but it's been very difficult because every time we knock on and don't want to say can you help us fund our programs people are shocked about

the cost because they say why is it so expensive it's like because we're giving people pens we're giving people paper because we want them to own something we want them to see wisdom unlocked on a pen on their desk when they're on their pocket when they're doing you know their work. So they remember, I can change. I have value. They, because Centaur, most of the time you get letters saying, you see me. You get a lot of times, they say, you finally, I feel seen. And so this is really powerful to say to other people, like, it is hard to raise funds. It's costly because there's no help. And Centaur and I have footed the operational cost for two years now, because we are committed to helping these people, because if we don't do it, who does?

So it's trying to explain to people that maybe they are your least favorite people. Maybe you dislike them, but they're going to be your gardener. They're going to be your neighbor. They're going to use your 7-Eleven. So even if you don't particularly like them, you've got to learn to embrace them. And that's something that we've been trying to do. But as you've said, Matthew, it's a struggle, isn't it, it's a struggle to get, you know, particularly academics, to go, oh, actually, this has some value. Because a lot of academics said to me, I'm not really short what the values.

why would why would you choose them of all the people you could have chosen why them it's like why not them exactly if i can dovetail on that you know when you said it's not popular it's not as a stoic it's not about doing what's popular it's about doing what's right and for us this is right incarcerated men or women are part of our circles of concern and one of our core values is we're going to pull them closer and not push them away because they've committed a crime. We're going to pull them closer and we are going to meet them where they are.

So this is a core value that we have. It doesn't have to be popular, but it's right. And that's why we do it. So you want a suggestion? Of course. Go for it. I didn't think you were going to say now. Now we're not interested in suggestion. I was going to say you ought to think about because what do you do?

Are you going on podcast to or were you just approach to go on a podcast? So, yeah, we do. I mean, I've gone on podcast to raise awareness. But again, the problem is it's like going to the same well. So like the one thing we liked about your podcast is that it's a different community. and it's a way of teaching storagesism to people who are not in the stock of me. But it's challenging because, you know, every moment I'm sending an email on a podcast as a moment I'm not working on the programs, right?

So it's a hard thing to balance. And it is the spare time of our spare time. So it is not, you know, it's not our full-time job by any means. And that's fine. And we don't necessarily expect it to be it. But I think it is challenging because you're always going to balance those things. And most of the time when you write these kind of emails to say to somebody like, can you, it's not even money.

Can you offer me your support? in any way can you even publicize it on your twitter feed it's like oh but it's political it's like stoics are political we're not left wing we're not right wing we are what's what is reasonable so whoever's saying it doesn't really matter what tire color they're wearing is it reasonable but even getting academics who you might who would call themselves left wings or you'd think more sort of more approachable on the incarcerated situation oh i don't know if i want to be associated with that all that's a little bit too far. So it's been really interesting from my point of view to see people who, if it was for disabled people, if it was people who were ill, if it was anybody else,

they would easily write an article or share the information, but the minute we say it's incarcerated, we get some, sometimes we get really, well, someone to get really rude emails, don't we center out, but some of it get cricket. So it's really interesting that the stigma attached, you know, it doesn't matter how educated somebody is, they still cannot get over their own stigma. And again, it's like, you don't have to like these people. We're not claiming that you like them or even love them. We're just saying that they need to be embraced because the eternity is what? They go back into prison, having caused more damage to our communities because we didn't open space for them to grow in the way they needed to.

We just dictated to them what they should think, how they should feel and how terrible they are. And so trying to explain this to academics. like you could be you could also be incarcerated at some point you could also be quote unquote the wrong end of that you could also have been misunderstood and they say no these people are different these people are not like me so the stork is saying no these people are like you they're exactly like you under the right haven't been taught how to make right decisions under the right in the right circumstances anybody will commit a crime you know so i mean you'd be foolish to think oh no i absolutely no way i would ever commit a crime really so

So if you lost your job and you ended up working or living in your car with your two kids and they hadn't eaten because the economy was horrible and you knew if you went into Publix and stole a loaf of bread, they'd live for two more days. You wouldn't steal the loaf of bread. Oh, that's different now. Yeah, exactly. You know, look, it's always different when it's you. You know what I'm saying?

Yeah, absolutely. A kid that breaks in your house and steals your computer to go sell the computer, you know, to support his his mother or pay for his drug habit or whatever it was different for him too you can always justify like look you're going to always justify something in the right circumstance you're going to be able to justify it to yourself i mean i know that firsthand um but i was going to say like like you if you started a youtube channel just doing what i'm doing just interviewing people like it doesn't you don't have to be great at it i'm horrible at it i i fumble through the intros. I fumble through the

outros. I just talk to people for some ungodly reason. Who knows why? People watch these things and they watch them and then they tell me that I'm inspiring and all of these other things that it's like

I'm not even making an attempt to be inspiring. Like I'm just doing interviews for things that I find interesting. And then before you know it, you're monetized and YouTube sending a check every month. which I'm still shocked. And you know, you can you can open a Patreon account and people start donating $10 a month,

which is nothing to the average person. $10 a month, that's nothing. But $10 times, you know, times 400 people and you've got yourself enough that you can really start doing, putting, making more contact, making more phone calls. Now you don't have to work for your 40 or 50 hour a week job. And maybe you can cut back and work a part-time. And before you know, this is your full-time gig and you're trying to, you know, you're, you're able to do a lot more because you're able to work full-time. So, you know, I mean, I know it seems silly, but starting a YouTube channel just talking to people, like it, honestly, it just, it costs like nothing to do.

And you don't have to be technical. I just got out of prison. I haven't been out of prison four years yet. There were no iPhones when I started prison. prison. People just started texting. Facebook had come out six months before I went to prison. So I have no clue how anything works. And I'm really pretty good at it now. So, you know, it's not that hard to do. And then if you're already going on podcast, people will. Why just survive back to school when you can thrive by creating a space that does it all for you,

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Five, ten thousand people will watch this. Some of those people will go and they will subscribe to your YouTube channel. and you put up one 30 minute or an hour long video a week. And that's it. It could just be the two of you just talking about what you did last week. You know, people will find you interesting and the next thing, you know, they'll follow you and they'll support you. And, you know, maybe it takes off right away and maybe it takes years.

But what does it matter? It's an hour a week and you've got to talk anyway. Well, when we run our next event, Matthew, we certainly invite you. So it's like we like to run an event. so yeah we invite you along we'll let me know to speak on it as well because it's so it's so powerful that they see someone like you who has you know grabbed the ball by the horns and run with it you know that's the other thing like we're telling people want us to tell them we should pity the incarcerated and we won't do that we're empowering them like empowering

the incarcerated oh my gosh it's like the most dangerous line because like we're not pitting them they're not victims and that's the other thing like you get the other political side who would donate but we're telling them they're not victims We shouldn't pity them. And they're like, well, they are victims. They're victim of issues with privilege and issues with intersectionality. And you're like, no, they're not victims. They're just people who haven't understood that they have the power to make positive change.

They are not trapped in that cycle unless they want to be. And that means that we're unpopular, both in the American conservative circles for obvious reasons, but also on the leftist circles because we're not feeding into the narrative. We refuse to believe that they are children who need to be told how to chew. And so we kind of get bashed, don't we sense? Are on both sides because we won't say what they want to hear. Like if we say yes, those poor things, we need to help them. That's not how we see them.

We need to empower them. We need them to leave and become, we always say shoulder, you know, to build shoulders for others to stand on, very unpopular. I can't believe that is unpopular. What they want is to say, no, they need to work in Walmart. they need to suffer more no if they can run you know if they can run with a podcast for example and make sufficient money to make change then they can engage with with growth and development themselves which is why centaur and i have just started to begin the art unlocks program where we

encourage artists in prison and recently released to provide a piece of art which we will then sell to help us with the operation of course because we also have to stand on our own you know our own two feet We're trying to empower people. But that message is something that, as you said, people are scared of. Where are you selling this artwork? Or where do you plan on selling it? So the beauty about this program is that, as Kai had mentioned, the 50% of the art, the proceeds from the art pieces go to wisdom a lot so we can provide programming.

And 50% goes directly to the artist books. because one thing that we've looked at is that inequality within the incarcerated system, right? There's inequality in prison. Some people have loved ones and families on the outside. They can put money on their books. And some people don't. So you end up making questionable choices to get that packet of noodles. You end up making some dodgy deals and start wheeling and dealing that may get you written up.

But if we can support someone getting money on their books and empowering them by being able to tell their stories, through art, we definitely want to do that. So what we do is we are, and I've been communicating with these artists almost on a daily basis, and they send us the art pieces, and we're going to host them on a website, and each artist gets their own page where we have a short bio and a photo, if they would like, but where we highlight their art pieces. And then there's also a site, a page where we highlight all of the artists, but if a certain person, if a prospective buyer is really interested in a certain artist, they can click on that

and go to that separate page as dedicated to them. So this is another way where we're putting another tool in your toolbox to empower you. And not only are you getting money on your books, but you're also participating in providing programs to your brothers and sisters in blue, right? And being able to bring in a program even into your own prison through the proceeds of your art. So we really think that this is another powerful tool. So this is a program that we're excited about. Like we're excited about all our programs. We're going to launch it in we're talking about June because we're basically at the moment we're talking to the artists. We also have to say things like what you can draw and what you can't draw. So we're in those conversations. But I would

say by this time next month that will be sorting out. We've already got we know that we've got the design of the website sorted out. We know. what we're looking for and how we're going to like for example we want we don't want to tell people how much the artist worth so there's a bidding we're going to let the person bid for it or put their own suggestion in but we thought how else do we how else do we do that so when that is available this time next month Matthew we will send you the details as well so you know well i was going to say Etsy uh have you know Etsy also has a like i use Etsy um because it's it's it's because it's already set up for that you know they take they'll take credit cards

payments they'll take everything so you know like I didn't want to have to go out and hire somebody or try and create my own website and the whole thing so Etsy was great for that and it doesn't really cost anything you know and they so once you've got that down it's it's pretty easy so but I mean it sounds like you're going to do your own thing I just you know I was going to do my own thing too but the more I looked into it more I was like geez this is more complicated than I wanted to get into more expensive than I wanted to spend more money than I wanted to spend and then everybody was telling me Etsy Etsy so finally I was like all right fine so I looked at the investigation we're we're the situation of we only put it on that

you know puts something on our right because the thing with Etsy we can't showcase the artist so for us it's like always we're just setting the art and we want them to be like this is the we want you to understand that the artist yes the art is a product of the art so that was why we we picked it that way because if we just sell the art we've missed the point again we're just making it a commodity rather than showing someone's talent and say even if we sell less pieces at least they understand like this is the artist and so it's it's a hard balance being a non-profit because you have to kind of balance those goals but we feel that that's the that's the best way forward but as i said this will launch uh i would say by this time next

yeah i was i don't know how much how much they're i don't know what my Etsy says about me It's got a little bio section, but I don't know how long. And they probably give you very limited characters that you can put in. I'm not sure. But I know there's a, you can put a picture up. I have a little picture. It's not me, though. No, it is me.

It is me, but it's a funky me. I think I'm going like this or something. But yeah, definitely, definitely let me know. What else? I don't know. What else do you have? You got anything else you want to mention or talk about? Yeah, we'd like to encourage people to go to our website.

What's the website? Wisdomunlocked.org? Wisdom unlocked.org. I mean, I can, we'll put it in the description. You know, there's the little description box. Check out our programs. Check out what we're about. Reach out to us if you want to support.

Donate, donate, donate. We're here to answer any questions. suggestions. We're just here for the community and we always want to create awareness. And if you're a skeptic, join us in the conversation. Hey, thanks for watching the video. If you like the video, do me a favor and share the video. Subscribe to the channel. Hit the bell so you get notified of videos just like that. Leave me a comment in the comment section. I try and respond to as many as possible. And I haven't been doing great in the last couple weeks, but I'm going to get better.

And also, I'm leaving the link to Wisdom Unlocked in the description. So click on the, go into the description box, and the link will be there. And check out the website. I appreciate you guys watching. Thanks a lot. See you.