Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - The Truth About Chris Hansen's Takedown & Candace Owens' Convicting a Murderer

Episode Date: November 4, 2023

The Truth About Chris Hansen's Takedown & Candace Owens' Convicting a Murderer

When Chris first did episodes with Dateline, he was a national figure, but he wasn't quite as well-known. When these guys come in now, on the way there, they're like, God, I hope this isn't Chris Hansen, I hope my life isn't over. But there's how many thousands of cities in the United States? What are the odds Chris Hansen's going to be in this house? When they see his face now, they're like, in 2015, I watched like the biggest crime docu-series in the history of the world, making a murderer. I was totally blown away and impressed by it and I thought these cops were awful and this state must be so corrupt and about two weeks later I read an article in The New Yorker about how what I watched was complete BS all the things they left out all the emotional manipulation that went into it and I said one day someone's going to make a heck of a response to this and tear it apart and I'm sitting there on my couch with popcorn I'm going to watch every minute of it Hey, this is Matt Cox, and I am here with Sean Wreck, and he is a documentary producer and the co-founder of a streaming network that we're going to be talking about.

And so it's going to be a great interview. Check it out. That's about as good as I get. It's not Chris Hans. No, it's all right. So, all right. So can I, can we start with like, tell me like where you were born? like how you got into this that sort of thing yeah well i was i was born in independence

missouri uh but at three years old my family moved to north holmesled ohio basically cleveland ohio and i've been in that area the you know ever since i was three so 55 years um i uh was a terrible student right were your parent journalists or anything or no my father was a banker and my mom was just a homemaker and you know the you know sold cosmetics in the sign right But I started my school newspaper in fourth grade. Oh, so, you know, I had the bug, you know, the news telling, yeah, news telling bug. And I found a letter of the principal wrote my parents saying, boy, maybe he'll, maybe he'll get into the news one day, you know. So I guess it was there at a pretty young age.

Okay. Well, I mean, I mean, you're saying it was a, it was just, you just found it interesting or. Yeah. Was it an avenue to something else or just? Well, I started filming. at 43 years old. It's my third career. I had, I owned a couple of businesses before that. One successful, one not successful. And that's kind of my entrepreneurial education. Then I was the editor of a trade magazine for the apartment industry for a few years. And then my boss at the time

said, I can tell you have that entrepreneurial bug. I'm going to help you out. Let's get you doing something, you know, your own business again. And I've always wanted to be a filmmaker. So I thought that I would use factual programming, you know, documentary film as a stepping stone to get into scripted. Right. And, uh, but I never really, I still have another scripted film. You know, this documentary stuff is, I hit it at a good time. It's starting to work out pretty well.

Right. What was, so you started that, that coming, what was the first documentary you, you? First documentary I did was called a Murder in the Park. It was in 2014 and, uh, ended up on Netflix and Showtime. but it was a double wrongful conviction in Ohio. I think the only place you can watch it now, if you don't rent it or buy it on iTunes or Amazon, I think you have to go to AMC Plus.

They hold the rights for five more years. So if somebody wants to see it, that's where you have to go. It was named to Time Magazine's list of the 15 most fascinating true crime story he's ever told. And it was about a double wrongful conviction in Chicago, Illinois. And I guess my claim to fame is that I think, I think I'm the only filmmaker who's walked three people out of prison who were either wrongfully convicted or over-sentenced.

And it wasn't our work that walked him off. But I'm saying we documented the efforts to get him out and made a movie about it. Yeah, it's funny. The over-sentenced is, you know, people always talk about, you know, wrongful convictions. And, you know, nobody ever seems to be concerned about being, you know, overly sentenced. Like, this guy should have got five years. He's doing 35 years. you know like that happens across the board but nobody ever really looks into that because they're like

oh everybody has to throw away the key mentality right and uh sentencing disparity is a huge problem i used to run the crime stoppers tv show in miami and a lot of people who were caught as a result of tips from our show cop to like a secondary homicide and did like six and a half years they're out you know but i know a guy in cleveland a county commissioner who left someone build him a pizza oven and took a free trip to Las Vegas, I don't think he benefited and he put it all on his ethics report. He was sentenced to 28 years in federal prison. He just got out and he's still on home arrest, house arrest till 2030. That's the sentencing disparity situation in the United States. I'm going to make a movie about it one day and

it's going to be shocking to people. I hope that's a movie I care more about all eyeballs than money because we've got to fix this. This is part of the reason people don't trust the justice system is things like sentencing disparity right yeah i was going to say i can't tell you how many people i i could listen i could listen off 20 people right now that for you know some kind of fraud charge where they they were offered three years and they felt like they didn't do anything wrong like it wasn't a blatant fraud or maybe they felt like you know i i i just don't feel like i deserve three years like i can get probation or whatever and they said okay well then i'm going to go to trial

because I think I can actually beat this at trial they go to trial they end up with 20 years 19 years 17 years that's the court punishing them from punishing them for making them work right right or probably that is for their um yeah yeah exactly for executing their their constitutional rights like I should be allowed to go to trial

so I go to trial it doesn't make sense that you're saying it's worth you're the prosecutor you're saying three years is reasonable well then I went to trial and you found me guilty why is now 19 years reasonable like what happened you're right it's punishment they want to set an example for other people to take the plea right because they don't have the time to try all these cases well that means that we're

not putting enough money into the court build a bigger courthouse hire more judges hire more prosecutors and take care of it instead of having this flawed system yeah but that's that's that's not a good sound bite to get up to get uh to be um elected it's much easier to lock them up and throw away the key and well that's always worked yeah bill Clinton switched to that philosophy and And look what he did to the people of color in America with that crime bill. He built more prisons than anybody. Yeah, well, he's still apologizing for it. Yeah, that's not helping.

He gave a, he doesn't help much. No, it doesn't help when you're after you do all that time, you know. Yeah, I used to say it was funny because there would be a black guys in prison who brought, you know, it was like you, you brought a, you brought a, you brought a gun to a $10 crack sale. And now you're doing 20 years. Yeah, there's a gun spec, gun spec, Ohio. Ohio, you can get a speeding ticket, but if you're a felon and you have a, and somebody left a weapon in your glove box, it's three, there's no way out of the three years. Yeah. Oh, I know a guy who got 15 years for, he bought a car. He said, listen, he said, I bought this car for like 500 bucks.

Bought a car, $500. He said, it was a piece of garbage. Like, I mean, the, you know, like the tail lights are broken. Just the whole thing's messed up. He said, but, you know, I bought it and probably, she said, I don't have the money to really fix it up. I'm driving it to work and back, trying to get the money to fix it up got pulled over one day car because he'd been arrested before several times for selling drugs got searched when during the search they found an AK 47 bullet in the back amongst a bunch of other just crap in the car 15 years wow yeah to any he was like yeah you know I was in possession that they did that as they connected that as being in him being in possession of a firearm he's like I didn't have a firearm I didn't know it was there but

But I have been arrested multiple times. So he should have gotten, he should have gotten, you know, three years for a, let's say, if he was in possession of a firearm, three years for a felon in possession of a firearm. But because he'd been arrested multiple times, they double or triple, right? So they triple the mandatory minimum. So he ended up with like 15 years. Those are draconian laws. It's the same as, same as Michigan with that 650 lifer law. I made a movie called White Boy about Richard Wershey Jr.

This is a juvenile, nonviolent offender who was doing life as an adult. He had grandkids over something that happened when he was 15 or 16 years old. And it was really just retribution for him cooperating with the FBI to try and take out the mayor. Right. Whose family were a bunch of heroin dealers allegedly. So, you know, it's, these laws exist. And they're politicians trying to get elected. Look, we're doing something about crack.

right crack is coke yeah you know what i mean it's not it's don't act like it's something different because it's it's um ubiquitous in the black community everybody knows now that that's that's it's just it's just free base coke or ready rock coke yeah and how do you determine that it's 50 times more addictive like that was the whole thing was it was a one that the ratio was like one to 50 if it was crack right cocaine is awfully addictive i don't know if you can i don't know how they can make that distinction right that's what i'm saying like how do you how do you say yeah but it's that this is this is addictive but this is now you've turned it into crack it's 50 times 50 where'd you get 50 times probably about probably about three times right

but that that was the ratio like if you had the same amount of powder and you had the same amount of weight in crack it was the ratio for the sentencing guidelines was 50 times well it's a different substrate so that's just insanity yeah it doesn't matter it's a different substrate they added in the baking soda and they turned it into something else and it fluffed up and it like you know, that's just, that's insanity to sit there and make some physical comparison and then use that to quantify, you know, the, how addictive it is. That's just silly. That's just, that was the hysteria in the 80s. They didn't know how to react to it. Yeah, but they didn't fix it until it was, it was in 2000s when it got fixed because I was in prison when guys were getting

released. Guys were 25 years, 30 years sentences were, they had already done like 10 years when they realized, oh, they should have been sentenced to six years. Immediate release and they'd let them go. They fixed it with broken windows, and that's being abandoned now. But that's really how they fixed it. Bill Bratton fixed it in the city. And, you know, that was the thing that worked the best. I just interviewed Grady Judd two days ago.

He still does it in Polk County. Their crime is very under control. Yeah. People know not to mess around in Polk County. You know, he says, F around and find out. I was going to say, I love Grady Judge. I mean, you've got to admit he's hilarious. Oh, my God.

His sound bites. I mean, I can, I could. I start a bumper sticker business off my one-hour interview with him. You know, like I can just isolate those lines. He's awesome. So you did, White Boy,

right, you know, you know Seth? Yeah, I know Seth really well. Seth's here. Yeah, yeah,

I know. We just had breakfast with him. Oh, okay. Yeah, Seth. He's been on my channel. He's been on a few times. I met Smith.

I met Seth when I did murder in the park. He was writing a piece for vice or somebody and he interviewed me. And then afterwards, he's like, I want to get into filmmaking. Yeah. So I, you know, I said, I'll help anybody. Let's raise the water level and all the boats go up.

And then he, he, I heard about Rick Wershey Jr. And he said, oh, I know Rick. I said, oh, well, you're my connection then. Right. And then he brought in Scott Bernstein, who knew Johnny Curry and Nate Boonecraft and all the people we used in that film to make it so interesting. Yeah, he's told me. Like the story you just told me, he told me the exact same thing.

only he was he was very gracious about you he's like like he was he was willing to let to show me how to do it yeah like he was super excited like i remember when he told he told the story on the show and he was you know he was he was he was very thankful that you had i sure anybody who has any questions i sure i'm blunt yeah if they show me their work and it sucks i'm gonna tell them it sucks i think i think some of our early work sucks right you know if if if you can look back and it doesn't you know certain aspects of the filmmaking and our sound if If you can look back and not see problems, you're probably not doing it, right?

You have to get better with each project. So what, the white boy Rick thing, that actually, it actually did like, I think Seth said, you guys put it out and it did okay. And then like a year or two later, suddenly it just blew up, right? Blew up because Netflix licensed it. And it wasn't a good license fee.

White boy Rick is like, our white boy, and he doesn't like being called that. But the white boy, the film, I didn't call it white boy. My agents changed the name. Yeah. It was called 650 lifer, kind of a boring name, okay? But I still was going to have the cartoon of brick, you know, on the cover. It was still a popular poster.

But we self-distribute, well, my agents told me Netflix was going to buy it and make an original. For Netflix original 90 minutes, you usually count on about a million two. Cost us $306,000 to make. So I was like, all right, we're going to make a profit. This is cool. agent takes a cut, but, and then there was a Me Too crisis at Amazon and they, uh, stopped buying. And they were the only ones writing big checks to compete with Netflix. They had to keep up with each other. So Netflix said a six month moratorium on buying and, uh, I mean, not Netflix,

uh, Amazon and then Netflix had a field day. And they were like, uh, they were like, now we think it's worth a lot less, you know, I don't know, maybe we'll just license it later. And, you know, they're like, what else are you going to do? And I, that pissed me off. And when I was, through my agents, was told, you know, what else you're going to do? You're not in control here. And ever since that day, I've been trying to make sure there was something else I could do. Right. And that's why, that's why I own a crime streaming service right now.

Because if somebody else doesn't want to license it, I'll buy it from me and throw it in my crime streamer and show it. And now we were just awarded a network. Is that when you started that or you just started the process? No, that's when I started the thinking process. And then I started another S. Vod, a subscription video on demand company where you pay four or five dollars a month, like a little Netflix, but my own little Netflix, that was for a religious movie called AGTV.

So we started watchagetv.com. And then for crime, I started True Blue, which is watchtrublu.com. And that, that literally has hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of hours of true crime, including all the new Chris Hanson Predator episodes that are called Take Down with Chris Hanson. And those, it's gripping, gripping television. So what happened with the, you know, with Chris Hansen and the, to catch a predator? Like, whatever, I don't know. I think they got too expensive to make.

I mean, those they were paying like $550,000 an episode. Oh, okay. We can make them for like 10. Right. You know, the cops do all the work. We just document it and they let Chris walk out. They get great PR because people see their tax dollars at work. Bad guys are deterred from going to that county.

you know right and initially the cops weren't doing anything the episodes were coming out and the cops weren't involved like they yeah they would give it to the cops they'd bring bring all um footage the cops and show them the episode in the ear and then the cops didn't do anything well because they couldn't show proper chain of custody evidence they couldn't you know uh if you edit it there are a lot of reasons that they some those guys were prosecuted um but the police got involved pretty quickly i was gonna say well then you guys started bringing them in or that wasn't me you know that was yeah but that was a dateline and NBC But I just think the show got too expensive.

And that's why they kind of just said, you know, there's no payoff here. Now, little do they know since then. I think on YouTube, collectively, there are like 5 billion views of those things. So, you know, they didn't know what they had on their hands. And what was coming with the media landscape. That thing is beautiful. And now we're doing quite well with it. He, right.

So eventually he left there, left Dateline, right? Yep. Then he went to, he did some specials for discoveries, some really deep dive, spent years like uncovering some crazy stuff, even on like social media influencers. And he started a podcast and, you know, he does cameos. And he's just a, he's a very, very hardworking person. And he just never quits. And, you know, I talked to him the other day. I said, hey, how are we going to handle you retiring? He's 64. He's like, retire. What am I going to do? I don't know. I got to retire. He likes this. This is fun for him, you know. And the new, and the new, the new guys are so bad now. There's so much worse than the old predators. So people are going to be shocked if they go to True Blue and watch these episodes. We have 70 year olds trying to buy 13 year old girls off their stepdad. You know, it's, it's wild stuff.

So you, I don't know if you know this. I mean, I know they, you know, these guys, we're at crime con right now, right? So, and, you know, you were approached by Tyler and Colby. and, you know, and you're here. So I don't know if you probably don't know anything about my backstory, but, but I was actually, I was in federal prison. So I was in a prison, um, called Coleman. It's Coleman federal prison.

It's a complex. It's about an hour north of Tampa. It's, and so it's got several, Rick was there. Who? Rick, where she was at Coleman, I believe for a little bit. Oh, okay. Well, he was probably in a pin or in the pen or the medium.

I was at the low. I was at the medium for about three years. And then I did like nine years, uh, at the low. But in the low, 40, maybe 50% of the 2,000 inmates that are there have a sex offense. And listen, and so I can't tell you, like, these guys were constantly, they were just, they're just, they've got problems. So there's such problems. There's just, you know, they were trying to justify their crimes. They would, they would, they would argue that it shouldn't, this shouldn't be illegal or I shouldn't be here. And, you know, of course, the running

joke with all of them was, you know, that Chris Hansen got him. Like, bro, what, like, how did you end up here? Did you walk into the kitchen thinking you were, there was, like, you were going to meet a, thought you were going to meet a sexually curious, you know, 12 year old girl and it ended up being Chris, you know, Chris Hansen walk out? Here's the craziest thing about the new episodes. So when Chris first did episodes, um, with Dateline, he, he, he was a national figure, but he wasn't quite as well known. Right. People may not have known why they know him, or why they recognize him. So when he would walk out in their minds, they're like, is this her father?

Is this a federal agent? He's wearing a suit. And he would say sit down and they would sit down. Yeah, well, he has authority in his voice, okay? And they'd sit down up South Park made a very funny thing about it where Cartman kept trying to walk away and he'd go have a seat and he'd walk backwards and get back on the seat. But when these guys come in now, this is what's so, so crazy, they all know who he is. Yeah.

So on the way there, they're like, God, I hope this isn't Chris Hansen. I hope my life isn't over. So, but there's how many thousands of cities in the United States? What are the odds Chris Hansen's going to be in this house? They walk in the new, they used to say, have a sweet tea, you know, now, now it's like, all my weeds upstairs. You know, they modernized it. You know, I'll be right back.

And then Chris will walk out somewhere between them and the front door. So they can't get to the front door. And because they don't just sit down anymore. No, well, they will. They usually do. But when, when they see his face now, they crumble. They're like, I lost the Chris Hanson lottery, man. Oh my God.

That's him. And some of them fan out. Like, you do a great job. I love your show. Wait, I'm not that. I'm not, no. I have the transcripts. No, I was coming to save her, you know?

I was going to talk her out of it. Yeah. I was coming. As one guy said, I was coming to pay her. for it today so she wouldn't have to do it today. Why don't you understand me? And he brought a thing of weed, char a weed, this big and four condoms. Yeah, I was going to say if he's got two models of K. Y and a box. Yeah. Yeah. And a video camera. It's like, I don't feel like you're being honest. Yeah. But that's why I'm telling you, the new, the new ones are wild. And they'll sit there.

One guy talked so much that we had to say, well, all right, well, thank you. Because the next guy was coming, you know. And this guy was like talking about his shrink and trying to help me. 20 years ago with his problem and his fantasy because he was a dork in high school and he never had a girl as a teen and that stuck in his head and like these guys this is like like taxi cab confessions of people who can't control their sexual urges if you remember that show yeah i remember taxi cab confessions um i'm an old guy i make assumptions like that yeah i say that to a 20 year old they're like who are you talking about i'm 54 i'm 58 yeah so i was telling me he said listen And these guys, you know, I'm complaining as we're going down the stairs, like, my knee hurts

my back hurts my. And they're like, why would you do? I'm like, I'm just old. Stuff just starts hurting for two days. And then it stops if I'm lucky. And, yeah, it's funny, the, not funny, but like, there would suddenly the FBI would bust. They would get a hold of some kind of a server or a website or something. And they take down like 300 guys who are paying.

And these guys are paying like $600 car payments to be a part of a website where somebody is, you know, a child for several years. And then somebody gets busted for something else. Then they go to, they work with the FBI. And then they, they bust all of these guys. And suddenly over the course of six months, we get 60 guys that were a part of this website at Coleman. at the prison I was what with with at so yeah and they would show up and it was just it was it was it was insane and there were there were two guys from NASA that were there were with with the with yeah there were these are guys school teachers the the principal of a school of like an elementary school I mean just this this I'm that The amount of people that show up there that have these crimes, it's just, it's, it's insane. And it's like, you know, you had to know better, you know, and then they try and justify it and the whole thing.

So, but there's so many of them now that, like, if you go to, where to go to state, they, they have a major problem. They go to a federal low. There's, the lows are so overly populated with them. They really, it's just prison. It's not as bad as like, they're all like, oh, they'll get killed. in prison. No, they won't. They won't because they'll send them to a low security prison. And unless it's extremely egregious where they, you know, hurt someone, murdered someone, if it's, they looked at some pictures or they made an attempt or something along those lines,

then they're actually going to be fine. They'll come. They'll do five or ten years. They'll go home. They'll register. They'll try and put their life back together, which I'm sure is an impossibility. But yeah, it's, it's, there's just because there's so many. And it's because of programs like that that I think kind of took this thing that was going on that people weren't paying attention to and blew it up. Yeah. And now suddenly the FBI and they have like whole divisions dedicated to it. Let me tell you a fascinating story. And I'm going to spoil my own Grady Judd special.

Nice. Grady Judd told me he goes, we were doing this like in the 70s and early 80s before. there was an internet. I go, how? They go, well, in every town, people kind of get a feel for who's creepy. Right. And it's like, why is this guy always at the park

without a kid with a puppy, you know, letting kids pet his puppy and sitting there for three hours watching the kids? Why is this bus driver patting kids on the butt when they walk in the bus? You know, so moms would come in and say, is this a crime? And they go, not quite yet.

So what Grady did, what Lieutenant Grady Judd did was, and he was taught this by someone else, he said, he said, all you have to do, he goes, they can't help themselves. They cannot, it's like sending a heroin addict a sack in the mail, all right? They're going to stare at it for a few days, you know, cite some lines to themselves, some mantras, but then they're going to, you know, likely going to do it, okay? So they can't help themselves. he said we would write i can't hello dave i can't tell you who i am yet but i'm going to admit some things i think we have a few things in common um look at the pictures below take off the ones that

are not for you and send this back the p o box blah blah blah blah blah blah and i'm going to have a surprise for you. And they would take and cut pictures of child models out of the Sears catalog, all different looks, and they'd put 12 of them on, and they'd get this paper back at the PO box a few days later from that guy with four faces chosen. Right. And they would start a pen pal relationship for years, where they would just get, they would just get all the fantasies out of them, and they would be like, well,

You can buy a little girl in Jamaica for $8,000. I have, I have, would you share her? I have $2,700. Do you have, you know, $5,300? And the guy would conspire to commit a federal crime and all this stuff. And then they would get him. And it was proactive crime fighting. It's like minority report, but the analog.

Right. I was going to say. All the work they put into it. And that just blew my mind. That's so smart. is it entrapment borderline is it the right thing to do yeah i was going to say like what how many kids need to get hurt before you get that guy what and they can't go to trial you know what i'm saying they like they're going to have to take a plea they're going to have to like if they say

oh well it's entrapment i'm going to go to trial go to trial i don't know who you're going to get on that jury that you're going to read those letters to that's going to be okay with you right it's going to say this is entrapment this went on for you know a year six months or whatever and you wrote these letters you weren't forced to answer these these questions so but yeah um it's funny i i i always you know that like i figure what the statute what the statistic is but it's like 80% of um sex offenders say that they were sexually molested you know as children that's probably true right but and and and i'm always like you know and i always think to myself you know and i think about that and i think yeah okay so i get it so you were probably you were

created and that's and i and that and and and you were male formed it's a male formation right so so and i feel for you and that and you're a victim and i feel bad for you but you're dangerous right exactly but you can't let mom no no matter even though these were created you can't let monsters roam the countryside you know and is it it's it's unfair but you have to protect for society it's almost like i wish there was banishment like there were there was hundreds of years ago where we had an island it's like create your own society right that's what australia it was. A prison. It's where England shipped their, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, you know, they were like, uh, you know, they had kids and they're like, what are we doing over here. Let's just start a real country, you know, and that's a, that's a great country. But that's, that's, that's, that's, uh, I, I, I agree with you. So, what are you doing now? The, the, uh, well, uh, uh, I just, uh, uh, uh, uh, finished a docu-huh. Um, um, um, um, um, I watched like the biggest crime docu series in the history of the world, making a murderer.

And I was totally blown away and impressed by it. I thought these cops were awful. And this state must be so corrupt and felt really bad for this guy in prison and especially bad for his nephew who was developmentally disabled. And about two weeks later, I read an article in The New Yorker about how what I watched was complete BS. all the things that left out, all the emotional manipulation that went into it. And a murder in the park had just come out. And I was happy because making a murderer was making me money. Because when people were done binging, they were like, I want more like this.

Making a murder was very similar with a better ending. So, you know, a more fulfilling ending, my first movie. So I was happy with making a murder because it was helping our industry. And it's the reason we get paid so much now. We used to be beggars now. Now we get paid a lot to make some true crime stuff and this factual programming. But I found that it was all BS. One day, someone's going to make a heck of a response to this and tear it apart.

And I'm sitting there on my couch with popcorn. I'm going to watch every minute of it because somebody has to protect our industry. We're starting to do well. And we can't screw it up for us crime filmmakers by putting out BS that nobody trusts. We've got to police ourselves. We need a code of ethics. And I waited around a couple of years and there was nothing in the works. Then Tom Fosbender and Ken Kratz saw a murder in the park.

And they said, they contacted Andrew Hale, an attorney in Chicago who was my partner in a murder of the park. And they said, you guys are the first people to expose the innocence industry. I didn't know what that was. Who were those two people? I don't know who that. Ken Kratz and Tom Fossbender are two of the many bad guys in law enforcement in a making a murder. Okay. Making a murder. Okay.

And they're like, we trust you with our story. So I, Andy pulls me in. I, I, I talked to these guys and I said, look, we are independent documentarians and we're going to tell the truth. And if we find that you did anything wrong, we're going to document that and film them sending you to prison or whatever, you know, so just, you're not controlling this show. I have creative control.

I have final cut. This is not your movie. They're like, all right, we have nothing to hide. So I move forward and all of a sudden, I'm making the response piece. Well, it took years and years to do, and it was just a very intense thing. Legally, you know, I've never spent more on attorneys. We had this reviewed multiple, by multiple teams of attorneys. Make sure we're not libeling, slandering.

Make sure all the fair use is correct, of course. And this thing's finally done. And I was totally blackballed in Hollywood. I was just, okay. 100 million built-in viewers, you know, waiting for something. What were you going to say? Well, one I was going to say is do you, you know, like people don't realize that like somebody has to fund all of this because this is all, it's their long process.

You have to hire all the editors. You have to hire the, the team, the cameraman, that, you know, the sound guys, you got to hire everybody, lest you have your own or you have to go out and hire them. You have to either you're flying your own people across the country or you're getting local people and they have to be competent. So, you know, it's a ton of money. And then, so most of the way that, typically the way that's done is you make a sizzle reel or, you know, you make a deck, you make a sizzle reel. That's the Hollywood program.

Right. You go out, you try and get funding from Netflix or Amazon or whoever, you know, Apple, they give you a budget of, you know, half a million dollars or two million or whatever it may be. And then you spend the next year putting it together. You edit it and then, you know, they revise it a few times. But or you sure do. Yeah. Or you go in as a production company. and you put up that money.

Yep. That's called banking it on spec, and we always make unspeck. Really? That's hugely, like, risky. It's, yeah. But you get, let me explain the free reign, though. Let me explain the payoff. Well, first of all, I don't have to take notes.

Okay. All right? I don't want to take notes. I don't want the new, coked out 22-year-old guy in charge of our project to call me at two in the morning and say, take out the most important guy in the movie. I don't like them. You know what I mean? And then you have to do it.

The other problem with doing a co-product. in Hollywood is you're limited. A lot of people only make like 15% of, of, of the budget. And then if you hit a home run, there's these little bonuses, but you can't do anything. I made a movie once for, I made a movie once for $370,000 that has made us almost $5 million. All right. So that's like winning the lottery. Right.

I won the lottery on convicting a murderer, too. But I almost, it almost didn't get seen. I almost put it on YouTube, just, just for it to get seen. And, you know, we paid millions and millions and millions of dollars to make this thing. But I was so blackballed in Hollywood. I'm a high functioning autistic, all right? So I get, I have really naive ideas sometimes. That's why I take some of these huge risks.

I thought, you know what? Let's make it look kind of like making a murder in case Netflix wants to own up to what they've done. Right. And buy it and just make it making a murder season three. That's how naive I was. Very unlikely. Everybody's like, you're crazy.

They're in the middle of a loss. They're not going to admit they're wrong. Right. So, yeah, I was like, yeah, you're probably right. So, but we wanted to kind of keep the look and feel a little bit just so that, you know, fans of the show are comfortable and don't have to like get used to how we're doing our storytelling. But when I went to, I went to my agents who sold everything else, told me I was a permanent client, okay?

And they named a few other very prominent directors. You're you, this one, this one and this one. Those are our only permanent clients. I was like, that's such an honor coming from you guys in New York, you know. So I came to them with a slate. We do six to eight projects at a time. And I go, look at this. They're like, great, cool.

Oh, that's good for Hulu. That's, oh, oxygen's going to want that. Okay. And I get to convict your murder. It was the last one on my list. I go, 100 million built-in viewers waiting to see this. They're going to, they're going to watch it. You're going to get the eyeballs.

It's going to be a mind-blower. They're like, we don't even want to talk about this. Right. I go, why? I think we co-produce with Netflix, all of our big docu-series, and their great docu-series are all Netflix docu-series. Like, we can't do this to them. Yeah, yeah.

We can't. Well, it's more like what they'll do to them. They'll suddenly stop working with them. I don't know. They just don't want to shoot themselves in the floor. I don't know if Netflix would stop working with them. I don't know that Netflix didn't want anybody to buy this. I can't say that.

I can't prove that. Right. And they're a very clinical company. They're not emotional. You know, they're very clinical and data driven. So I don't know. I was completely blackballed in Hollywood, all right? I only had one offer besides a daily wire, and it was a place I didn't want it.

It was a good offer. It was actually more money, but it was a place that I didn't want it, and I couldn't do anything with it later. So I, you know, I, then all of a sudden, you know, we get this deal with the daily wire. We got a tremendous deal, all right? We made money and have the opportunity to make more money. You did go with the daily wire? I went with the daily wire. Okay.

Because they promised to put episode one on YouTube. And they did. And they also put it on Twitter. So, I mean, we have 10 million views in the last 14 days. Oh, nice. And yesterday, it became the number one documentary TV program in the world on Rotten Tomatoes. So I've never had to happen in my life. It's like a massive, massive event.

For us, it's like one of the best days of my career. Right. today waking up to that. So, um, but it tells the whole story and it's really gripping and it's really good. And it's really pissing off at all the Steven supporters because they knew some of this stuff in the film was wrong. They're way past that. They're like, oh, this is old news.

This is five year old news. Well, not for the general public of this. Yeah. But it almost didn't happen because I didn't, now that I think about it, okay, and I'm just arbitrarily mentioning a network. So I'm, say I'm a buyer at Hulu and I see this and I'm like, uh, you know, uh, I'm, Wow, that's really powerful. Of course it's going to work.

That person's thinking, you know, they revolve networks all the time. They change jobs all the time. Do they want to be the one who did that to Netflix? When Netflix looked like it was going to dominate the industry and everybody's going to work there, they're not going to be able to get a job there. So like, it's a matter of self-preservation. I was saying it's funny that people make that. They're not making the best decision. What's best in the best decision.

for the public or for the network or for their shareholders right that exactly that they that they're really right it's on self right yes yep that's what i that's in my opinion you know so i'm not saying we offered it to hulu or talk to who i'm just using an arbitrary name i could have said roku i could have said apple you know one we were very close to a deal with a huge player and they were like you know we just feel like this is netflix's brand and that's why they didn't do it they were fine with pissing them off because they're a huge rival But they're like, yeah, it feels like we're nipping their brand. Right.

I go, well, they laid it on a golden platter for us. We have to. You know, we have to correct the record for the sake of the industry. So when the Daily Wire came along, we thought we were talking to Fox, okay, because my agent said, make screeners on Vimeo and write, you know, episode one, Fox, so two Fox. We sent him to this guy, Dallas Sonia, who made dragged across concrete, sell block, lock 99 all that he made all these like you know gritty yeah real done or films you know um and we thought he was working with fox nation and i thought oh fox that would be they don't mind

pissing people off right this is great and he goes you know what i think we can do this let's talk and i go oh great um i'll come to new york he goes new york he goes come to nashville i go what oh i fox isn't And he goes, we're not Fox, we're Daily Wire. Well, I've been a Daily Wire subscriber since they started. Right. I drink that Kool-Aid. I buy their razors. You know, I buy everything.

I was a Candace Owens fans for years. They go, we're thinking Candace Owens. I'm like, you're kidding me. So I was like, oh, you want a narrator because it's usually in docs, you know, the subjects are the narrators. They're talking and you're covering it with. Yeah. Actually, that's the way I like, I really don't like the narrated version. I didn't.

But I do now. Okay. I do now because what she's doing is offering a layer of commentary. And the viewer can take it or leave it. Right. It offers some clarity. She gets to reemphasize points. It's a lot easier on us.

She'll reemphasize things that we would have to recap and possibly people would feel a redundancy. That's a big, you know, why am I seeing this again? But we want to make sure they got the point. She can just say it. So clean and easy. So I have no regrets now in going with them. But I had to go down and meet with her and her team over two. days, I think 14 hours. And she just watched everything. And she's like one of the smartest

people ever met in my life. She, she went to a whiteboard and she said, here, I'm going to fix it. I was like, oh boy, because I had Brenda on my iPad, the producer of our program, who's put thousands. Brenda Schiller, she put tens of thousands of hours of research into this. And I was like, Brenda's, just going to go nuts. You know, we can't change this right now. But Brenda and I were very close to it. And we didn't realize that maybe the order in which we were telling it wasn't that great. Candace goes to a whiteboard, just like Matt Damon and Goodwill hunting and says, she's writing for a while. And I'm holding an iPad, Brenda's watching. And I'm sitting there.

And I was like, oh. And then I'm looking and I'm like, okay, Brenda's going to kill me because this makes perfect sense what she just wrote on this whiteboard. Right. She did fix it. And Brenda goes, yeah, I get it. I was like, holy moly. And Candace said, yeah, I'll do it. And now taking the arrows and bullets that are flying at me right now from, I have 20 mean

tweets every like five minutes. So that's probably a good thing. I mean, at least mentions. I'll say mentions, not direct tweets. Yeah, it's a good thing. Heat is a good thing. But like who's more fearless than Candace Owens? You know what I mean?

And who's more, who doesn't give a crap about Hollywood more than Daily Wire? So this is like a gift from God. Now I know that this is all meant to be. And now it's number one to the end of Rotten Tomatoes. Every buyer who passed on it sitting there scratching their head, like how on earth can this be number one when it's on a streamer with a million subscribers? You know, but it's because they put it out free, two episodes for free to the public and they're responding. And it's just people need to know the truth.

um do you are you still looking for more material or more stuff are you you have tons of projects in the pipeline there are a lot of projects in the pipeline but i need to get away from murder man so i'm doing one on i'm doing one on youtube reactors i'm fascinated by youtube reactors what is that route youtube reactors people who who a lot of times it's it's it's young people of color who are watching like white people music and They're like, this isn't that bad. Oh, yeah, yeah. Like, oh, gosh.

What's his name? The white guy that wraps. He's got tattoos on his face. Oh, they love. No, the other one, I know he were talking about. The other one. I just watched it. I just watched him yesterday.

Where's Jeff? He kind of rants. He does. Jess. What's the, what's the, this is my wife. What's the white guy? He's got tattoos. He wraps.

Tom McDonald's she went and wrote that. Yep, he's, he's, she's very, usually she says, I love him. Well, and then these young, uh, young, uh, young black folks are making these reaction videos like, oh my God, this dude can write verses, you know, like, they're like, this is all true. That's, the authenticity is what. Yeah, resonates. What plowed Eminem through that brick wall.

Right. You know, the authenticity, they won't argue with authenticity. People, fans won't argue with that. It doesn't matter what you look like. But anyway, so there are YouTube reactors who react to everything, a lot of political stuff, a lot of sports stuff. And I watch it and I'm like, why do I enjoy watching this? Why do I just, why is it 11 at night and I was going to go to sleep at 9? Right.

And I watched two hours of these reactors. So I've approached startups, big ones and talks with a really big one, who may or may not be fighting in England next month. So we've got like I'm going to make this movie called Reactors showing people who make $12 a month and people will make $12 million a month and their lives and how it and why do I want to know why we love this so much and is it bringing people together it may be so I'm fascinated by it. So Reactors will be something I finished in about 18 months. I've got a movie coming very soon called Mr. Football about a guy who would have been

an NFL Hall of Famer. and got caught up in a crime and got a felony murder charge because the guy he was doing a robbery with got killed. Right. And his name was Ray Williams and it happened at Benedictine High School in North Holmes.

And I'm sorry, in Cleveland. And that's going to be a fantastic movie. I've got one called The Killing of Sister Dorothy, which is a four-part docu series that's done. We're not trying to, it's about the killing in the nuns in El Salvador in 1980. Oh, okay. It's not what I was singing. Yeah. Um, that's, we have all these tapes of her telling the story, the victim. So she narrates her own movie. That's another case of narration. That's an incredible project, but nobody's buying anything

right now. Even with a writer's strike, it's just a really, nobody knows that they're going to have their job next month. So we're just kind of waiting it out. And, uh, but the killing a sister Dorothy is probably awards worthy. And it was made by, uh, some guys I empowered named the Earhart brothers three brothers who were filmmakers and i i just produced it but that'll be coming out soon and uh we're just always turning out original content for true blue the uh the crime streamer so okay i um when i was uh when i was incarcerated i wrote like 20 like basically two dozen synopsies for different guys and i got some guys in like rolling stone magazine i got two book deals you You know, and then I got out.

So you're like Seth. Yeah, exactly. When he got out before me and he also went, you know, where I thought, hey, I'll just option the stories and I'll, you know, do a true crime podcast, that sort of thing. No, I told him the spec bottle. Yeah, he actually. I sent them the paperwork, what you give a lender, how you, how they're going to make money. I've never, nobody's ever lost a penny on one of my films.

Right. He bumped in, obviously he ended up with you and went, you know, and started making these himself. A lot of, a lot of people in Hollywood can't say when I'm about the same. say and this isn't this is an ego this is this is my resume all right this is business i have to say this because i need people to to back my projects no one's ever lost money backing an entertainment project with me i've had a business fail in the past okay but no one's ever lost money backing one of our entertainment projects because factual programming doesn't need marketing

dollars you get this earned media right okay because you have interesting interesting true stories to tell that people want to hear. And the other thing is, I've never failed to clear a project that we finished. And in Hollywood, what does that mean? Clear means get it on the air, on major airways. Okay. Or on a major streamer. Almost everything I made has been on Netflix, stuff's been on showtime, on stars,

Fox Tell over in Australia and England. We've never failed to clear something. And like, if I go to Hollywood and go to our restaurant, make a reservation, And everybody there is trying to be an actor or trying to be in the business. They always IMD BU before you get there. All right. And I walk in, they treat me like some fat slop from Cleveland. They treat me like royalty because it's like, oh, my God, everything this dude's done and

this two foot resume, everything he's done is cleared. He doesn't have any development projects in here. He doesn't have any stalled projects in here. Right. Like so, yeah, am I proud of it. Yeah. But I mean, I say it more as like, we're a solid, a solid investment. We don't really sell stock.

We just, we do debt-based financing. So we, somebody makes a loan, they get the first dollars back until they're repaid. And then they get half of the profit pro rata. And we get the other half as a form of royalties in lieu of interest. Now everybody's on house money. They've got all their money back. They're just reinvesting profits. They're making money hand over fist.

It's a great. I taught Seth that, that deal. And it works. And if you're a player, if you go on Netflix once, you're a player. Right. You're never going to not get 300 grand a finished hour for good work. And that's like the floor. You can get way more than that.

You know, we make millions now on projects. And thank God we're in that situation. But the reason I'm tearing apart with making a murder is like if there are a lot more making a murderer is coming down the pipe where they are going to manipulate people using narrative filmmaking techniques, they're going to kill. for all of us because no one's going to watch our stuff. That's why we have to have a voluntary code of ethics and stick to some rules. Well, I was going to say the service.

So what is it? You just advertise the service and you've got, you've got a, is it 24 hours? You're just, it's available. Is it kind of like a Netflix type thing? It's Netflix. It's less than $5 a month. There's hundreds of movies. There is a new predator every week, basically.

We've got a show called Iron Sheriff coming out. We have a show called a police shootout show, real life called Cops Under Fire. Are these just your projects or are you buying docs or doc series from other people to? No, we bought, we bought movies from other people, okay, to make sure that, to make sure our viewers are fully satiated and they never run out of stuff to watch. But 95% of our viewership is Chris Hanson. Okay. That's all they want. So they're all there.

Are you planning on continuing to put more docs on the series? Yeah, we're going to put more docs in the series because when we have our network, which starts October 24th on Roku, we have to have 8% fresh content per day. Okay. And free ad supported television, fast channels, you know, like cable that you don't pay for, is the future. And they have new rules. Like I used to go to like a fast channel and I'd watch a seven minute asthma infomercial.

And I'm like, what the hell is this? This sucks. And I tuned out and I was never going to do it again. Now we're only allowed to have two minutes of commercials. There has to be a countdown on it. So people know when you're coming back. You have to have 10 minutes of content between commercials. I love the countdown.

Yep. You have to have 8% fresh content every day. So you can't do what they call a wheel. You can't keep repeating stuff. So fast channels are just like antenna TV. It's like having cable for free and without the FCC involved. Yeah, but where do you keep getting that content, that new content? We have to turn it out, man.

I've got 40 filmmakers. I've got 40 filmmakers, and we are, we are, and we also are going to license our content. There are people talking to us right now, Pluto's talking to us right now about licensing a bunch of our stuff for their, for their crime channels. So that's fine. We'll do that. It's not going to hurt us. Right. You know, so, yeah, it's, it's, it's a great model.

And then, and then if somebody sees a takedown episode of a 70-year-old trying to buy a 13-year-old girl from her stepdad, and they were like, oh, my God. And they go to work and they're at the water cooler and five people want to watch it. It may not be on the free channel for a month. They could pay $4.99, watch a commercial free, watch 40 more commercial free, 150, 200 movies. And they realize what a value that is. So it's going to drive people to the subscription service. Right.

Well, we've got to put the links and everything in like the description. I'll put all your links to the in the description box. Sure. and uh yeah it's watch t r ublu.com that's where they sign up but then they could there's an apple app a fire stick app uh roku uh android ipad you know uh iPhone you can watch on any device yeah i i i i i was just going to say um i so with fox news when tucker carlson was there i actually had gotten out and was in the halfway house and I was actually in the middle of a lawsuit for someone suing somebody that I'd written a book for and he'd sued he had ended up suing Warner Brothers and I was suing him and he basically I was in prison with this guy wrote his I wrote a memoir for him that he then got out and he sued Warner Brothers because it was the the main character in the movie War Dogs is named Jonah Hill well I mean I'm sorry that Jonah Hill played Ephraim Devoroli in the in the movie War Dogs.

Well, I was in prison with Ephraim Deverelli, and I wrote his memoir. Well, he got the memoir, got out, published it, and sued Warner Brothers saying they stole his intellectual property. Anyway, and I got out. I was suing him, but I actually had written a book. I know you said, you want to get away from murders, but I'm not really pitching you, but it has to do with Tucker Carlson, where the lawyer that represented me for the Wardog's lawsuit, used to work for Tucker Carlson. And so he read, he had read my book, and he read another book that I had, I had written. So, and it was called, it's called, it's called Devil Exposed.

And basically, it's about a drug dealer that was in California that was bribing or paying two FBI officers. one was an FBI officer one was a CI who told him he was an FBI officer like he had a badge and everything they were crooked and they're paying them and they end up ordering the murder of two CIs that were in this guy's organization so they're paying them one to quash cases like one of his couriers gets busted with five pounds in meth he ends up saying hey man this is what's going on he just got arrested four days later they let them out they get him out like they They say, he's working for us. You got to let him out, you know, because they're in front, and it's a drug kind of task force

they're under. And this is in the 80s, early 90s. And he. It's the freeway, freeway Rick Ross era. Right, right. He's a friend of mine. So they end up, so this guy ends up getting, he gets in trouble a couple of times, gets arrested.

They get him out right away. He's out. Well, they would also tell him, like they'd go to him and say, hey, I got the name of this guy. We're dealing with him. Is he okay? And then he'd come back, they say, uh-uh, he's working. He was busted six months ago.

He's working with the DEA. So these types of things are happening. But it's a work, it's a working, you know, organization. And what ends up happening is two guys end up being informants, but the informants know that these guys find out that the informants are working with local cops and telling them that Rusini, my guy, has two FBI agents on the payroll. they find this out they basically give the order to kill those guys you got to get rid of these guys well these two guys get murdered the two FBI see FBI informants get murdered this is a very you know streamlined version they get murdered russini and his buddies get arrested his all of his buddies say russini did it he murdered him then they start failing polygraphs and then they say okay

fine I murdered him but russini ordered the murder russini gets he gets arrested, he pleads guilty, gets like 40 years. These guys are going to trial. And so Racini's in prison, and the U.S. prosecutor and the lead FBI agent come and talk to him. They're like, he got 40 years. We'll cut your sentence if you tell us what really happened. You know, these guys said, you ordered the murders, and he's like, I didn't order the murders.

And so he says, listen, okay, fine, but you have to give me a sentence reduction. And not based on the fact that you're taken into consideration, I want a guaranteed letter that if I talk to you about this, you will cut my sentence. And they say, okay, absolutely, we'll do that. We'll do that. No problem. I've never seen any of these. I don't know if you know anything about the federal system. I don't even know how that's legal. I will. A judge would have to sign off on that, right? No, the, the head U.S. attorney can sign off on it. Okay. And he did because he was a little one interviewing him. And that was Robert Mueller. Wow. So Robert Mueller came. out to Leavenworth, interviewed Rusini, multiple times with an FBI agent.

Were you locked up with Rusini? Yeah, I wrote his whole book. And listen, I'll give you the website. I have all the information on a website. So this whole thing, so in the end, what it's, I don't bore you and go into it. In the end, they try and renege on the deal because Mueller becomes FBI director. They try and renege on the deal. So he doesn't have that in his past.

Right. Well, one of, by the way, when Mueller filled out his application, like, to be FBI director. One of the things he says that he uses my buddy's case is one of the like eight cases he prosecuted. One of them is this guy. So anyway, one Mueller covers up the fact that he, I mean, not that he interviewed him, but what he said.

So he, because basically it's, I won't get into, Robert Mueller basically lied about a bunch of stuff. the FBI agent lied about a bunch of stuff. Mueller destroyed his notes. What Mueller didn't want to happen was for it to come out that two FBI agents were corrupt and working with these guys. He didn't want that. He didn't want that known. Now, there's newspaper articles about it and everything.

And these guys, by the way, both of these guys in the middle of it took a disability retirement. so they retire so which is very common you know that happened in scarpa and all these big cases as soon as it came out the guy's corrupt he takes a he takes a retirement uh so anyway i have this whole case and then they do eventually by the way what they didn't realize was that russini had a copy of the letter so he does get his sentence reduced multiple times eventually he ends up they put muller on the stand muller lies on the stand there's all of these things that muller did And I have this whole book, and I get out, and I'm in the halfway house, and I start pitching the book. And I've got the book up and I'm telling people about it.

And I end up telling my attorney who used to work for Tucker Carlson. He reads the book. He comes back and he says, this is amazing. This is the middle of the Russia investigation. So Trump is, I mean, I'm sorry, Robert Mueller is the special counsel. And so Tucker Carlson, they end up putting an investigator on it. He investigates the whole thing.

He calls me up. We talked for 20 minutes here, an hour here, five minutes here. He's asking questions. I'm sending him here, telling him this. And he comes back and he,

apparently it went up to Tucker and they were like, look, we want to fly you in and do an interview with you on the whole thing. I'm like, great. Super excited. I mean, I'm in the halfway house.

I'm like, I'll be out of the halfway house. I'm like a month. So I'm excited. Seems like it's going to happen. they're just still checking on it and they come back and they say listen with the they put they thought about it and they thought listen it's just too hot they said and the fact is is that let's face it you're a guy who was in prison for fraud i'm like yeah i'm a guy was in prison for fraud but i've also

got articles and you know rolling stone i've got articles in the atlantic talking about me forbes has done stuff on me being a true crime writer the atlantic talks about me being a true crime writer i've got all these books out like and they're like i know it's just it's questionable like these documents, who knows if these documents are real? I'm like, I can't go back in time. These were filed in federal court 20 years ago. Like, I didn't forge that document 20 years ago. This is what happened. They were just coming up with excuses for why they had no backbone. So then what happened was they end up a couple weeks ago by, they put another guy, or they think they go and they do it again, go back to Tucker and eventually Tucker says, listen, it's too hot right now. This guy,

they, everybody loves this guy. Like, I just keep. just can't do it like it's too it's just too much so they end up not doing it and it never ended up happening you know and uh man it was upsetting it was so funny as my buddy russini because of because of the second chance act and all the credits that these uh these credits that they give you and everything he actually got like a year and a half off of his sentence he's actually in a halfway house in Orlando right now wow it's just super and so he's actually like for the first time so many people are alive to talk to muller's not going to sit down No. No, that we have transcripts of Mueller. He got them on the stand. So you have the transcripts of him.

Be nice if there was video. But the key to a good documentary is access to the subject. You know, what's funny is there actually is. Rucini do it? Or Rissini would do it. But here's the thing. There is, Robert Mueller didn't go to the courtroom. He was video recorded at the FBI headquarters. So it was a video recording. So there may be video. That may exist. Yeah. Maybe. FOIA. Yeah. But the federal FOIA is now taking three years. So, finally, it's a tomorrow yeah uh well oh you don't listen i have all the docs i have all the documents on a website right now so the whole book is broken down i have two books i have one book that's a it's kind of like a

a one book is like a full book and the one is really just about kind of the case and that book corresponds with every document every transcript every DEA 6 every FBI uh you know 302 every single um interview everything on the entire case, including the letter, and on the entire case, and it's all on a website that I have. So yeah, it's, I mean, I think there's probably there's on, that's a series. Yeah, well, you know, it's funny. The two guys that committed the murders are actually just got out probably a year ago out of federal prison. I mean, probably feel probably. Yeah. Listen, most of these guys are still available. If you read the book, it's, it's, it's, It's just insanity.

It's insanity. And all these guys are out of prison. I think the bulk of them will talk. I know Racini will. You know, he's super smart, very articulate. Hey, that sounds like a good, I have a pretty good eye for projects. I mean, that sounds like a good project to me. I'll send you the, I'll send you the book, you know, it's and the website and the whole

and I had, and if you know anymore, if you want to read just the synopsis first, I have like a 10,000 word synopsis on the website, just so that you could read it and be, and go. Okay. I understand. Then I've actually got the book, too. Right. If you want to go for the blow by blow. It sounds like a lot of work. I mean, it sounds like you did a lot of work, but we need to, uh, do you have the time to produce it? I wouldn't even know how to produce something. No, you'd be the one wrangling the people. Talk to them saying, do this. Please do this. I'm the producer. Yeah, get him to. It has to be yours. It has to be yours and mine if I do it. It can't just be mine. They're like, uh, Rick Wershey, Stephen Avery.

Like, you know, they may not, it may not mean anything to that. You know what I mean? So, but if there's somebody they know asking them, that makes a difference. Right. So, yeah. Yeah, I'm interested. Yeah. Well, we'll see.

We'll see what happened. I'll get you the stuff and see what you think. You might read it and say, is this guy talking about? Oh, there's so much going on there. It sounds like like four hours. And honestly, that that's a huge problem with Rossini. Like, you know, you've dealt with people. When it's their story, they know every single little thing.

And they think everything is important. And it's important, but it's like, let's streamline this because I can't do. He has to let us, it has to track. Right. Or viewers won't watch it. So it's got it's good. You've got to satisfy certain emotions every several minutes. Yeah.

He has a very hard time just answering, you know, just understanding that he's like, and the reason that happened is be. And then he goes off on a tangent. I'm like, stop. Brevity, brevity, brevity. Right. I say that all the time. It has to be a trailer sound bite.

How can you say that in eight words? You know, I'll just say, say it again, say it again, about 10 times and they get frustrated and they get mad and they're like, basically he wasn't in the car. Right. Thank you. Yeah, there we go. Let's move on. Yeah, but you have to sometimes frustrate him to get the line in a usable way.

It's not the audience is going to fall asleep on their iPad laying in bed. All right. Well, cool. I will get you that. And this seems. while. Yeah. No, and we execute, man. We don't, we don't have meetings and not Holly. Oh, yeah, we don't do eight meetings and not pay you. And then, well, yeah, we're going to get, I'm going to get, let me talk to Jim. We're going to do that thing. We're going to do that thing. Let me talk to

Bob. We're going to have a meeting. We're about to do it and they get fired. You know, and it's a new guy. What is this? You know, and you're like, oh, fuck, I just wasted two years of my life. Hey, I appreciate you guys watching the video. Check the description box for all of the links to True Blue and to the YouTube link. And I really appreciate you guys watching. Thank you very much. Appreciate you doing this. Thanks for having me. This is great. All right. And see you.