Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - The Untold Story Behind The Wolf of Wall Street & Jordan Belfort | Nadine Macaluso

Episode Date: February 17, 2025

Dr. Nadine Macaluso shares her personal story of being married to the infamous Wolf of Wall Street, Jordan Belfort.Connect with Dr. Nadine Macaluso:IG: https://www.instagram.com/therealdrnadine/?hl=enBuy her book: https://www.amazon.com/Run-Like-Hell-Therapists-Recognizing/dp/B0CD3CL12G/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@drnaelmftFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/drnaelmftYoutube: https://www.youtube.com/c/TheRealDrNadineDo you want to be a guest? Fill out the form https://forms.gle/5H7FnhvMHKtUnq7k7Send me an email here: [e-mail] you extra clips and behind the scenes content?Subscribe to my Patreon: https://patreon.com/InsideTrueCrime 📧Sign up to my newsletter to learn about Real Estate, Credit, and Growing a Youtube Channel: https://mattcoxcourses.com/news 🏦Raising & Building Credit Course: https://mattcoxcourses.com/credit 📸Growing a YouTube Channel Course: https://mattcoxcourses.com/yt🏠Make money with Real Estate Course: https://mattcoxcourses.com/reFollow me on all socials!Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/insidetruecrime/TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@matthewcoxtruecrimeDo you want a custom painting done by me? Check out my Etsy Store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/coxpopartListen to my True Crime Podcasts anywhere: https://anchor.fm/mattcox Check out my true crime books! Shark in the Housing Pool: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0851KBYCFBent: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BV4GC7TMIt's Insanity: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08KFYXKK8Devil Exposed: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08TH1WT5GDevil Exposed (The Abridgment): https://www.amazon.com/dp/1070682438The Program: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0858W4G3KBailout: https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/bailout-matthew-cox/1142275402Dude, Where's My Hand-Grenade?: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BXNFHBDF/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1678623676&sr=1-1Checkout my disturbingly twisted satiric novel!Stranger Danger: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BSWQP3WXIf you would like to support me directly, I accept donations here:Paypal: https://www.paypal.me/MattCox69Cashapp: $coxcon69

For a limited time at McDonald's, enjoy the tasty breakfast trio. Your choice of chicken or sausage McMuffin or McGrittles with a hash brown and a small iced coffee for five bucks plus tax. Available until 11 a.m. at participating McDonald's restaurants. Price excludes flavored iced coffee and delivery. And I walked in and everybody seemed very strange. Now, that should have been a red flag. Once you can't make phone calls from your own house, that's a sign that something's not right. In the movie, they show him getting arrested at a heliport, but that's not what happened.

He would send his driver to my house with a Bulgari watch. Here's $15,000 in cash, go have fun. There's all these grand gestures that feel so fun. But they do hide the red flags. I was raised actually in Bay Ridge, Brooklyn, hence the name of the Duchess of Bay Ridge. Right. Right, from the movie. And so I was raised by a single mother in the 70s in Brooklyn, and it was incredible.

There was no internet. We played on the streets from, you know, morning till night, until they rang the bell and came in. And it was a great magical time. But since I was raised by a single mom, I needed to make money. So that's when I headed into New York City to become a model in the 80s. I immediately think of, see, I think of these things. I know Colby doesn't know.

But I think of, oh gosh, what was his name? He did those videos. This had to be in the late 80s with the models behind him, you know, addicted to love. Oh, I did that. one of those girls. Are you serious? Yeah. Yes. In the Robert Palmer, might as well face it. You're addicted to love. Are you serious? Yep. I did the Rock Awards with him. And so, yep, I did that live in the Rock Awards behind him. That is funny. Yep. That was fun. So, well, I mean, how hard was it to become a model? Like, that can't be easy. It's really hard to go up against the most beautiful

girls in the world. And since I'm short, I'm 5'7 for a model, I did a lot of commercials. And so that's, I did Wrigley's Gomb, I did Mountain Dew, I did a Miller Light commercial that was on during all the football games. And so that was about, so I don't think I'm about 21, almost 22, and it was hard to be a model, but I needed to make money. Right. And that's the way. Nobody was supporting me. I was on my own financially. Do they pay models back then? A lot of money. Yeah. I don't think, you know, look, it's, I feel like it's the kind of like that disparity between being like a comedian where it's like the guys that are working a full-time day job and they're getting paid like 50 or 100 bucks to do stand-up. And then it's that to bam, you're selling out stadiums and you're

making $200,000, you know, each performance. Like it's like there's no in between. Like there's there didn't seem like there's a middle class for models. Yeah. No, you know, one commercial, you can make $50,000 a year in residuals back then, which was a lot of money. Nice. That's a lot of money now. Yeah, yeah. In Florida. In Florida, right, not in New York City. Yeah, so I was modeling at the time, going to Studio 54, running around the city, listening to Madonna. I was living in Brooklyn Heights, having the time of my life.

And as the movie The Wolf of Wall Street depicts, I showed up at a party in the Hamptons that would change in my life forever. Oh, okay. I'm sorry. No. So, well, how did that go? First, I have to mention, I don't think, I'll bet you, Colby doesn't know what Studio 54 is.

Really? The 54 studio. Yeah, I don't know. Is it produced movies? That's my guess. No. So there were in the 80s, there were the most amazing clubs in New York City. And you would go and you would dance all night.

Studio 54, Xenons, the Red Parrot, all of these fantastic clubs. I mean, like, there are movies about studio. There's movies about it. Every famous person in the world in the 70s and 80s went there. Yes. All of them. And whenever, by the way, whenever they've got to tell their story, they always throw it in there. Yeah.

Because it was. Because it's iconic. Yeah. And it was just wasted on Colby. And I'll tell him, you should, he'll, then he'll say, he'll say, well, yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll watch it tonight. And he doesn't. He's the, it's a lie. So you went, you went to, you went to the party in the Hamptons.

Yes. So was it, I mean, because I watched the movie again last night. Okay. Was it anything like that? It wasn't as big as the party in the movie, but it was certainly at a beautiful house on the ocean, Dune Road, in West Hampton, and I showed up and I didn't know anybody there and I certainly didn't know my ex-husband at the time. I went with my current boyfriend and I walked in and everybody seemed very strange.

Why? Why? Because I don't think they were sober. Oh, okay. Yeah. And I didn't know that at the time. and what they were all they were all on on ludes yes yeah that was a big thing yes in the movie yeah so i have a question um so at this time at this point in your life how familiar are you with this lifestyle that you're about to come into like if that is strange kind of coming into that party what's well i mean i listen i was running around the city so i understood about money and big homes and that sort of stuff. But I certainly didn't grow up like that. And so the thing that was shocking for me more about the party was the way everybody

behaved. And just as the movie depicted, somebody did expose themselves to me. And I ran out of there with my boyfriend. I was like, we have to get the hell out of here. These people are crazy. So that was, and I felt embarrassed, you know, about that, which it wasn't my shame to carry, but they were so out of control. I ran in and I ran out.

Now, that should have been a red flag. Yeah. Yeah. Right? But I was 22 and clueless. What was it? We've watched it. And there was some scene in the movie where they're smoking, you know, rock.

Yeah. And it's funny, my wife said she is, she's like, she's like, this is a difference between poor people and rich people. She's like, rich people when they do it. She's like, it doesn't look nearly as trashy. You know what I'm saying? She's like, these guys are all drug addicts, but they don't make it look as trashy because they have money. Right.

It's much flashier. Yes. When you're driving a Lamborghini or a Ferrari Testerosa, right. It's different than a beat up pickup truck. It's a little bit. I mean, even though it's really the same, the behaviors, but it looks different, right? The image of it is different.

So I went to that party and I left immediately because I was freaked out. But I guess my ex-husband had set his sights on me. And he actually contacted somebody that I knew a mutual friend and made her $15,000 in the stock market to get me to show up at a restaurant for dinner. Oh, I didn't know that. Oh, yeah. There's a lot of little secrets. Yeah. Yeah. So you go to this. So I had no idea. This was a total setup. Yeah. This is, oh, you didn't, you didn't know. She just said to me, hey, do you want to go to dinner? And I said, sure, she goes, that guy Jordan might be coming. I said, what's he coming for? Isn't he married? She said, what do you care? I said, I don't care. I just think it's weird. Right. But I was like, okay. And I showed up. Now, was Ross Bandale. Was he there? Was he was? Yeah. So are you. Are you serious? Yeah. Yeah. You remember this, bro. I remember Ross. Okay. I totally. Yes, he was there. You know, I interviewed him. Yes, yes. I forgot that he was there, but I just bumped into him again. And he explained to me that he was there. And I was like, oh, my God, you were there at a restaurant called Chabella on Madison Avenue. Okay. And so he gets out of his white testarosa with his cowboy boots and saunter's over to the table and sits down. Now I have no idea to set up. And we just start talking. And I'm from Brooklyn. He's from Queens. We know a lot of the same people. I'm 22. He's 28. And we just got along really well. And then he was like, can I drive you home?

I was like, okay. This guy does like me. And then he dropped me off. And he said, what's your phone number? And I said, I'm listed under Ophelia Lopez, because that was my roommate at the time. You know, there was no cell phones or anything. I just hopped out of the car. And then the next day, I came home, and there was 1,200 square foot of flowers outside my door for my 800 square foot apartment. That was, yeah, he was, he was, he was, uh, he was all in. He was to go big or go home. Yeah. Um, so, so what, so you, you obviously see him again, right? You guys start seeing each other.

You know, we really didn't after that, because I was modeling a lot and I was traveling to Chicago and my, my commercial had just come out and I was super busy. And I, you know, I really didn't think that much about it. I mean, I thought that was crazy that he sent me, those flowers, but he was married and I wasn't interested in that. And so I went and actually lived in Chicago for a while. And then I came back in December and we were both working out at the vertical club, which was the hottest spot in the city to work out. And I bumped into him there. then he asked me out was that an accident or he really was working out there was i think he was i don't know it could have been fate or destiny or whatever we call that um uh so so so you start going out yeah

so we so we go on on on first date and he says me i'm separated he has an apartment in the city is any of that true separated yeah i don't know how separated he was but again i'm so young so I don't understand all the rules of the game at this point, right? I'm just very trusting and trusting person. And so we go out on a date and that's it. We fell madly in love. There's a scene in the movie where you two are in the back of a limo and the wife shows up. Yes.

That happened. Like that? Just like that. Really? Oh, yeah. Because, you know, they always, there's always, you know, the Hollywood, they kind of twist things or. so what happened there exactly like that she yanks the door open and yep and she says you get the i don't want to curse out of the car and you stay the blank in the car and uh she did yep she had every

right to be really angry of course and then i went upstairs and i was freaking out because she threw my modeling portfolio down the incinerator and that was how i made all my money right so but jordan paid somebody a hundred bucks and they found they got it out um so i mean did, at that point, did he say, look, we're getting a divorce? That's right. That's right. And they didn't have any children and they were only married for a few years. So it was, it happened pretty easily.

Was he as wealthy at that point? Yeah, he was wealthy then. Because when I watched the movie, I remember thinking like she made out. Like, like she was, that was a perfect situation for her because she's going to get a nice little chunk of money. She's going to leave. And then when the FBI comes in later, she keeps all her money. Yeah, she's nowhere to be found.

Right. Right. Right. I'm sure it didn't feel like that at the time for her, but it actually worked out. Yeah, it definitely worked out. Yeah. It's funny. I knew a guy in prison that the FBI had come in and arrested him because he was a felon. They made him like sell all of his stock in this company. And he sold it at the like the height of the company. And within the next few years, it dropped down to nothing. He's like, thank God they made me do that. So at that point, you guys, do you get married right? away or do you continue to date for a while or yeah so he you know my ex-husband is the type of guy he wants what he wants when he wants it so we were dating and he said to me you know you we have to I'm not even going to date you if you're not going to marry me and I was like what okay I'm 22 23 years old I do not want to get married you know my parents had gotten divorced when I

was six. And so I had this number in my head that I didn't want to get married until I was 30. And he was like, nope. And so the goalposts were always moving. And then it was if you don't have children with me right away, I'm not going to marry you. So there was always this dominating, intimidating, threatening behavior. And I didn't realize at the time that it was manipulative. I was just like, oh, he just loves me so much. That's why he wants to do this. Um, did you have, were there, first of all, what, how long did it take for him to get divorced? Quick. I mean, because we got met and six months later, we were engaged, six months later, we were

married. Oh, okay. Yeah, so it didn't drag out very. No, I think he got divorced very quick. By the time you got married, though, did you realize that he, like, there was a, there was an issue with drugs or were you also, you know, involved in that? Yeah, you know, I think like most drug addictions. they really grow over time.

So I think in the beginning, it was more casual, fun, parties with friends, right? It wasn't, it didn't, as time went on, the drug addiction really got a lot worse. He's probably on his best behavior, too. Of course, in the beginning, yeah. It's kind of like mental illness. Like, what's bipolar condition, like in your teens

is more manageable. That person by the time they're 50, they're just a lunatic. Right, right. The things we don't deal with catch up with us. Right. Right. So now in the beginning, it was just tons of fun.

And I don't think it was his drug intake that concerned me. It was his anger, you know, and those like threats. And I had really not grown up with anybody yelling at me. So it was kind of shocking when he would rage at me. It's funny because when I've watched. watched um jordan on videos i'm like he's super charming he's very very you know just middle of the road he he's not offensive he never argues he you know he's uh he's like he just a great you know very charismatic and i'm like yet i've met multiple people that know him personally yeah

and all of them have said absolute maniac complete asshole not like what you see in the movies and I'm thinking to myself like I didn't see I'm not thinking the movie I'm thinking I've seen videos of him right you know interacting with people always seems very very cordial very reasonable and they're like absolutely unreasonable he'll screams and hollers he's belligerent he will and matter of fact I have a friend who's a producer in uh in Los Angeles and he after the Wolf of Wall Street Jordan he was working with Jordan that they were trying to work on some kind of a series or something that they were trying to put together. And he said, it took within, within three to six months, he's like almost nobody wanted to work with him.

He's like, he probably could have got it done. Yeah. But he alienated and belittled and screamed it. Everybody along the way, and they're like, yeah, I can't deal. Like, we haven't even got this thing off the ground yet. And this is how he's behaving. He'll be a monster by the end. Yeah.

So, you know, so you're saying you're not saying, you didn't say all that. But you're saying the same kind of thing. Like he yells and screams. Yeah, he has, when he gets into a rage, it's pretty scary. So, it was very intimidating. But you still married him. Yeah. What happened?

What? Well, I was in love. And I think, again, it didn't happen as much at the beginning. And then again, it gets progressively worse. It escalates, right? Drug addiction, abuse. When you're deeper and deeper into it, suddenly you have a kid, then you have a kid. Yeah.

Then your type depends on. And, you know, when you, that's why I wrote my book, because when you fall in love, And back then, you have to remember, nobody was talking about narcissism. Nobody was talking about love bombing. Nobody was talking about red flags. There was no point of reference for any of this behavior, and I had never witnessed it. So I just was like, all right, I guess, I don't know, this is what very successful people are like. And I'm tough.

I'm from Brooklyn. I'm not a wallflower. So I think there was a part of me that was like, I can deal with this until, of course, I couldn't. Right. Yeah, I was going to say, it's funny people now don't think, they think, it was always like this. My mom would tell us that she had gone. They'd gone to the doctor with my father.

He was an alcoholic, and he would binge drink. So he'd go on a two-week bender. And then he'd stop drinking for a few months, and then he'd start drinking again, and then it happened again and again. And they didn't understand what was happening. And so they went to the doctor and said, look, I don't have something's wrong.

They're trying to explain it. Yeah. This is in like the 70s. Right. And the doctor said, you're an alcoholic. My dad almost punched him. They got into a screaming match and he stormed out of there. And he's like, you know, my mom was like, you have to understand that an alcoholic was like a homeless person.

Right. Bums were alcoholic. He's like, your father had a good job. He made good money. He had people. Family, yes, yes. She's like, so we didn't understand that, no, no, normal people can be. Right.

She said it took years after to where he eventually started, he got into AA. Eventually, you know, things happened. We started to realize like, oh, wow, I have a problem. But you're right. In the 70s, like, you just, you just kind of put that under the rug. You don't talk about it, you know. Yeah. And, yeah, this was in the 90s and nobody was talking about it.

Nobody. And I even, so right when I met my ex-husband, I put myself in therapy. Because I was like, there's no way I can handle this lifestyle. There's no way I can handle him. And even my therapist wasn't naming it for me. Right. So it wasn't even in like the clinical acumen. And so it was, I was really just.

like a babe in the woods, I had no idea what I was dealing with, and I was in love. Right. Because that's what happens in a trauma bond is that it's not all bad. Because if it was all bad, nobody would stay. Yeah. Right? There are those, there is that 30% time, and especially that in the beginning time, where it's euphoric and somebody is generous and kind and warm and loving.

Right. Well, I mean, narcissists have their good points, too. You know what I'm saying? That's the whole thing. Like they're confident and they're they make you feel great and they're super charming. They can be all of those things. That's right. When things are going well.

That's right. You know, as long as things don't, long as things stay going well for them. Yeah. Right. Great guys. I'm a great guy most of the time. Right. But then, you know, but then what would happen is if I would set a boundary, right, around

one of my values, which was when to get married and when to have children. Right. That's when the tsunami of rage would come out. Right. And so it was very tricky to navigate, especially as a 23-year-old girl. Well, how quickly was it until things start going bad? I would say in the beginning, like four months in was when those threats started to happen, but then when it really gets bad as much later on.

Well, how much, how long? So he, I mean, you guys buy. you know you're living in a great house yes right yes there's the yacht right yeah yeah that happens when I was about maybe 27 okay so yeah but that was a few years in yeah I mean was was there so did you did you understand like were there times where he was explaining to you what they're doing you know and how you know how illegal what they're doing is Like, did you realize, like, hey, this is absolute fraud? Like, this is a pump and dump scheme.

No. No. No, because first of all, I don't, again, I'm 23 years old. I don't understand anything about the stock market. I mean, I certainly thought it was wild how they could make so much money. Right. But I really didn't understand all the intricacies of what he was doing. I remember I was much more focused on my relationship with him.

And then he left Stratton a year after we were married. he got fined of like a hundred thousand dollars and so he left stratton oakmont but then he was controlling it all from behind the scenes oh okay so that's different yeah and then danny was the guy who was running stratton oh okay yeah yeah they shift that to whereas he's running the whole time it's just the very end when danny comes in right yes yeah and so and then even if i did see something that i didn't agree with or question him about it Jordan belford is not listening to need to me. Yeah, yeah. No. No, I could see that. Like, everything. He's not. He's not going to be like, really, 18? Oh, tell me what you think about that, that stock deal. Yeah. Oh, I've, oh, I've had that

conversation when I was committing all kinds of fraud. My ex-wife would be like, yeah, I don't know. I'd like, like, what I'm, what I'm doing, clearly what I'm doing is working. That's right. All right. You know, so, you know, that, that whole thing. Yeah, there's no conversation to be at. Yeah. Like, your opinion is irrelevant in the fact that we're living in a nice, you know, you don't complain. You should be grateful. You should be grateful. grateful for that. Right. You're not complaining when you got the nice house. You're not complaining about vacations. You're not complaining about the vehicle you're driving. The real estate, the, yeah. Right. Yeah, I know how to do it. You've been there, done that. I've been there. Definitely.

Not at that level, but I've done the whole, at the moment somebody starts to question. Yeah, you just deflect or shut them down. Right. Yeah. I just shut them down. I just shut them down. Or I guess sometimes it would be like, oh, no, no, no, it's not like that. Yeah. Depends depends on what manipulative tactic you wanted to pull out of your back. Yeah, the FBI doesn't go for any of that, by the way. You could do that with your relatives and your family. You know, you could do that with them, but no. So, so, I mean, I mean, I'm wondering at what point do you real, I mean, at some point,

do you realize there are investigations coming? I mean, you know he got fined. Yeah. What was. He got a $100,000 fine, and then that was it. It's nothing, right? Yeah, that was nothing in the grand scheme. Yeah.

And then so he's running it with, I mean, you have to realize that's not correct. Right. Correct. Yeah. Yeah. He's like the dawn and everybody comes to the house and he meets with them. And then they all do whatever they do. I think they had satellite offices, you know.

All right. Yeah, I was going to say that if, and then you've got, what is it in the movie? DiCaprio is playing him. He's like 6-1 or something or sick. Yeah. And Belfort's what, like 5-5. He's like my hype, right? 5, 5, 5, 6.

Like, he's tiny. He's tiny. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I couldn't. I, you know, and it's so funny, too, because there are little tiny things where there's something in the movie where he says, the guy says, calls him the FBI agent, I guess when he goes to meet him on the boat, he calls him little man.

And, of course, you know, like Leonardo DiCaprio is not a little guy, but when he said little man, I thought, ooh, oh, I would be like, huh, huh, I would, I would. I could see me losing. Trigger that Napoleon complex. Oh, my God. Yeah. Don't you dare. I'll get out my lists right now.

So, but so, so I mean, when do you realize like, do you realize that things are going bad? Is it just at the end or you start seeing it going bad? Well, I think, you know, the movie depicts it when you start seeing it going bad. And again, in the movie, not everything's chronologically correct, right? But when he goes to the. country club because he has because he once you can't make phone calls from your own house then you know something that something's not right so when when he has to go to the country club which is the funniest scene in the movie when he falls down um the stairs so that's when things

really i think start to turn right you know when when he when i started to realize okay this guy he can't make a phone call from the house like this is a problem what does he say about that nothing i mean did you ask him you know again it was just like i'm going to the country club i got i got to call bow or whatever i'm like okay are you looking for like an i mean you know no offense but you know if you should be looking for it to me i'd be looking for an exit strategy at that point i'd be thinking i need to start putting money away i need to figure well i don't know you'd be looking for an exit strategy if somebody says you the only way you're going to leave this marriage is in a body bag oh yeah well

to me I'd be so I remember definitely thinking about it then but so remember so but he has all the money and he has all the power right and I totally fear him and I'm a young girl right so and so you have to remember with that power and even if I want to leave him I'm thinking is he going to say I'm the drug addict is he going to try to take my kids from me right right I don't really know how any of that could go down. And I'm totally afraid of him. He was going to say he's also got tons of guys that are coming around all the time. Everybody's...

Oh, everybody's kissing is... Yeah. Yeah. Yes. They're all yes, men. And so what really happened for us in our relationship, and they don't really show this in the movie, is we didn't really fight about women ever, but for whatever reason he wanted to write about that.

We fought about his drug addiction. And that's really where my attention was focused. Because now you have to remember I have two babies that I want to keep safe. And I'm very concerned that his drug addiction is escalating. Right. Yeah. And so that was where a lot of our issues stemmed. Does he ever, I mean, did he ever agree to go to like a rehab or?

Well, so what happens is, and it's, again, it's a little different in the movie, but I finally confront him because he, he's cooking powder in the country kitchen. Okay. Okay. And I have two babies upstairs and I'm like, okay, this is nuts. And so I confront him and I say, you know, I'm not going to sit here and watch yourself, all these people that you make money for, they don't care about you. I actually care.

And I'm not just going to sit here and watch you do this. So I said, you have to go to rehab. And we have to do an intervention. You have to go. And that's when he goes crazy. Takes all my clothing and jewelry, throws them in the fireplace, lights them on fire. lights them on fire, screams, obscenities that I won't say. And so I go into my closet and I leaned against the closet and just said, God, give me the

strength to do this. I don't know how on earth I'm going to be able to do this. And so I left that night and went to my mothers and gained some strength. And I was going home the next day to deal with my babies. My housekeepers were there, so I knew that they were safe. if I didn't leave them, my children with him, of course. And my mother said, you know, you need to call the police and tell them you're going home to a domestic violence situation. She was so smart.

Right. And I did. And when I walked in, he's high as a kite, you know, acting like nothing's wrong. And he said to me, I try a private plane. I'm taking our daughter to Florida. I'm like, no, you're not. I mean, that's, don't even screw with me with my kids. They grabbed my daughter and tried to take her.

and that's when he got violent like they show in the movie when he kicked me down the stairs. But I was 31 at the time and in great shape and I chased him. And then you see that scene in the movie at the end where he drives her away. I don't know if you remember like into the wall almost. Oh, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. And so I stopped that from happening, saved her. And then the police came because I had called them because I didn't even have time to really dial them, but I dialed 911 and hung up. and they came and took him away. And then he went to rehab because the only way he could see us and come back to us is if he was sober.

So he did get sober. Okay. That's a long way of telling you he did get sober. But it's an important pinnacle moment in our life. No, that makes sense. I'm wondering, why didn't you show up there? Like, would the cops not go with you? If you said, hey, I'm going home.

I don't know. This could be violent. This could be a bad situation. Why didn't they come with you? Or you just wanted to let them. I just wanted to let them know, like, be on call. And luckily I did because once, because I couldn't even say anything to them because I was chasing after him, just dial 911 and hung up and ran after him.

Yeah, you got lucky that worked out. You know what I'm saying? I got really lucky. I got really lucky. So, I mean, at that point, he does, he does go, he comes back. Yes. He's sober for, what, a while? Yeah.

Or good for good. No, he's sober for a very long time. And then about nine or ten months later is when he gets arrested. Okay. Does he, the scene in the movie where you guys are loading yourselves up with cash and going to Switzerland, does that occur? Where he's, yeah, where he's sending people to Switzerland, yes, for sure. Yes, that totally. Hey, so what did you want to talk about?

Well, I want to tell you about Wagovi. Wagovi? Yeah, Wagoe. What about it? On second thought, I might not be the right person to tell you. Oh, you're not? No, just ask your doctor. About Wagovi.

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Jim on Tuesday. Date night on Wednesday. Out on the town on Thursday. Woo! Quiet night in on Friday. It's good to have a routine. And it's good for your eyes too. Because with regular comprehensive eye exams at Specsavers,

you'll know just how healthy they are. Visit Spexsavers.caver's.cai to book your next eye exam. Eye exams provided by independent optometrists. That's what got him in trouble. Oh, okay. That's, that's, well, I mean, I thought the stock stock for all ways. I think it was all tied together. Because when the FBI came to my house, they said, do you know your husband's getting arrested on 11 counts of money laundering?

Right. Right. So I think that's all a part of it, like sending the money over there to do some crazy trading here. Yeah. I was going to say, I mean, I got arrested up money laundering too. But, I mean, money laundering charge can be. It can mean anything. It can be like there's illegal money in the bank and I go and ask for a 500 box.

They go money laundering. That was illegal money that went through. So it could be anything, but yeah, it makes sense. Yeah, you're, he's taking cash. I don't even know how they could get that much cash like it. But this was, this was a long time ago. Yeah, this was a long time ago. Yeah, you wouldn't, you could ask for cash.

They'd give it to you. Now they want to argue with you. You say, hey, can I get $10,000? They're like, oh, I don't know about that. Right. My money. Right. Right.

So now it's very different. Yeah. So then he, so then he got arrested. And does the boat thing happen? Oh, yeah. That's very real. Well, what? that's very real unfortunately so what what happens with the um we were we were going from uh

rome to sardinia and the captain said it's going to be you know a little bumpy and we were like okay you know we've been on boats before and we got caught in a squall okay and it was insanity because they could what i think they called the coast guard the coast guard the Coast Guard came they couldn't save us. And then the rules of the sea are that all the boats that are bigger than yours have to go in front of your boat to break the waves for you. Okay. And then they rerouted the Italian Navy. That's a big ask. Yeah. We were in a lot of trouble. And they sent them to us. They sent it intrepid to us. And then a frogman came on the boat. And he said, okay, 18, 5.30 a.m. You're up. All you can have is your person, nothing. And they,

wrapped me up and hoisted me 40 feet up into an helicopter, and they took us all off one by one and then went to the Intrepid. Did the plane really blow up? Yes. And then after that, the plane of a pigeon flew into the bench in or something. I think that was on our way home. Yeah. That's, that's, yeah, that's, it's crazy.

Well, I had a bumper sticker that said I have my angels on the run. Right. Uh, well, so what happens once, once he gets arrested, he gets out on bond, right? Yeah, well, he, the bail was 10 million. Okay. So we put up all of our homes. I drove a million dollars worth of jewelry, gave it all back. And, uh, yeah, but I knew.

That's insane. Yeah. Do you realize, I mean, do you realize, like at the moment, does it seem that insane that what's happening? Oh, it seemed totally insane. Yeah, I was afraid. But I knew that now he had an ankle bracelet on and he had to deal with the FBI. He's on his best behavior. And he's not going to bug me.

Right. And I knew I could leave. I knew I was safe to leave because he can't hurt me. Now it's so obvious he's the crazy one. He's the criminal. Right. He's, what is he going to accuse me of?

He can't accuse me of anything if I want to leave now. Because what happens, right, the power and balance shifted. For a narcissistic person, that is not, that's the bad. It's all bad. That's a bad feeling. Yeah. So, and then I knew I was safe and I knew that was my exit window to leave. Do you know that when I got arrested and they threw me in jail, I swear there was, there were a few moments when I genuinely thought to myself that they can't do this.

Really? What do you think you? That level of entitlement? Oh, absolutely. And I was like. And delusion? Like I basically I need to I need to talk to somebody It didn't take long right I kind of sat down

Yeah I started thinking oh man you need to get a grip on yourself Yeah like they can do this they're doing it You're done it's over like but that's how mentally Deranged I would keep in mind too when the FBI came for me yeah I went on the run for three years Oh I didn't know that I didn't know that oh no you can't arrest me no I'm leaving like the the looking back on that moment of that that delusion yeah that's common i look at it and i think what were you thinking no you weren't based in reality you weren't living in reality exactly you weren't right you weren't right i always say i was driving cars i shouldn't have been driving living

places i shouldn't have been dating right you know um yeah you and you become and i have surrounded by people who that idolized me yeah and who fed the delusion right because i'm making a money Right. And that's why in therapy, you know, there's something called reality testing, right? We test how people, you know, how much what they understand and believe is real. Right. And it's when, I think when you're in that pathological state, it's not real. And I mean, you lived it. You know it. He didn't do that. He just, he just said to me, I'll never forget it. But first of all, I was so upset because clearly he knew this was going to go down. And he should have said to me, hey, Nadine, this is going to happen. Right. When this happens, this is what you do. So when it happened, I had no idea what to do. And then the FBI took me in a room and questioned me for four hours by myself. Now, granted, I did nothing. So they couldn't arrest me for shopping too much of Bergdorf-Goodman, but that was scary. And he should have said, like, don't ever do that. This is who you call.

yeah so i was left alone with them for four hours yeah plus you don't you know i mean i'm sure you did not have this experience but they're not looking out for you like like they're talking for four hours they either want you to be yeah they want two things they want you to be either a witness or a defendant right like what they don't want to hear is i didn't know anything no that's not sure nobody believes that yes yes right they're right they're not they're not there to be my friend right uh so that was one of the things that really upset me you know just not that mindset of keeping your wife safe. Right.

That was very upsetting. Well, you're expendable. You know what I'm saying? Yes. Everybody's expendable. Yes. I can tell you that for a fact. Like I don't have anybody that wasn't expendable in my life.

Right. Which is, let's face it, to go on the run for, let's bring it back to me. But I mean, this tells you the level of delusion is that to be totally okay with leaving everybody you know behind and going on the run. like, wow, you, you, most people can't do it. Most people, I've seen guys go to prison and show up to go to prison for 10 years. Like they're, you've got a 10 year sentence, show up here in three months. And to me, it's always like, you showed up. You got here this morning. You turned yourself in. You were free. You turned yourself in to do 10 years. And they're like, well, yeah. I'm like, why wouldn't you run? And they're like, well, I've been,

I got a kid. I got a wife. I got my parents. And I'm thinking to me, those are a expendable. Like, I can get new, I can get a new wife. I can, you know, I'm saying I can get new kids. Because people are objects. They're not, they don't have a heart and a soul and a mind when you're in that mentality. I've actually said that before. I've actually said like your opinion of me means about as much as that stick of furniture right there. Right. That's, yeah. Well, you lose all relationality. Yeah. And that's, you know, you're very self-focused, right? So people don't matter. So that was what was very upsetting to me. But I was like, okay, I'm done now.

Bye, bye. See you later. So, I mean, did you, did you ever, did you, I mean, I'm, I'm pretty sure I mean, you have kids together. You might have talked to him since then. Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Yes. We have a relationship. Did you, did you ever go see him once he was incarcerated? Because once they find. Definitely not. No? No. No, no, no.

No, because we, no, no, no. You didn't sneak any wine in? Because he didn't, he didn't, he didn't, uh, he didn't get sentenced for like seven years. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah. That's kind of the Gordon Gecko thing. Colby doesn't know anything about that. Yeah, he didn't get sentenced for a long time.

Wow. Yeah. So I was already done. But you were gone by then? I was way gone. Yeah. Are you getting so, I mean, is he still seeing the kids? You're still having to deal with him.

Yeah. Yeah. So we saw it to deal with each other. And then I was living in Long Island. And then I moved to Los Angeles. Well, I mean, you were doing the modeling at this point. Now, my housewife. Yeah, I was going to say, I hate to say this, I was going to say you're aged out of the modeling career at that point, right?

So you go back to school? No, so what I did is I had a maternity company and I had a website, a catalog, and a store. So I was in the garment business. What's a maternity company? Like for women that are pregnant, I made maternity clothes. Oh, okay. Yeah. So I had that little business that I had.

started. And so I had that and I had my home and my kids. And I then about a year and a half later, I met my current husband. Oh, okay. Yeah. And he lives, and he lives in California. And so what happened was Jordan had an ankle bracelet on. And he decided to take a helicopter to Atlantic City. So that's not positive about the, yeah, pretty sure. with an ankle bracelet on, you know, so he had to go to jail in the beginning for a little bit because of that. And so my lawyer said, listen, she's going to give up her house. He's in jail. She wants to move to California. In five seconds, the judge signed it and said, tell it to go. And then I moved to California with my current husband at 25 years, John, and me and my kids, we started all fresh

again. And then Jordan came out about two years later to live near us. Oh, okay. Yeah. That was the right call, right? Definitely. I mean, during that time, did you, when did you start school? Because you didn't, you were not a therapist at that point. No, no. So that's like 33, I would say.

And then I went back to school, 38. Okay. Why, how did that come about? You know, I just realized therapy had saved my life because I told her I put myself into therapy when I met him. Right. And I believe that if I wasn't in therapy during that time, I would have lost my mind. Right.

I would have, who knows what could have happened to me. And so I was like, I'm just going to go back to school. There's no ageism, right? You can do it until you can sit and, you know, as long as you can sit and talk, you can do it. And I love helping people and it helps save my life. So I went back to school. I had a friend who was like 30 and I was telling me to go to college and he said, he goes,

he's like, yeah, bro, I'd probably like 34, 35 by the time I graduate. I was like, well, how long will you be if you don't start? Right. You know, and he just, he's not a bright. guy, by the way. He's kind of, what do you mean? Well, the time's going to go by anyway. Yeah. Right. You're going to be 35 at 34 at some point. Right. And so I just decided to do that. And then I was in getting my master's and you have to do, to become a licensed clinician. You have to do 3,000 at face-to-face hours before you take the state tests. So I know your face is like, that's a lot of time. That's a lot of time. And so then I just continued and got my doctorate. When Jordan comes out of prison does that so one I guess I mean I know the story I guess the story is he goes into prison

and he meets one of the guys from Cheech and Chong yeah does you know this he meets one of the guys from Cheech and Chong's and he's like you should you should write a book right so he convinces him to write a book which he says he kind of started I guess and then he gets out and then he finishes it or rewrites it whatever the case maybe yes what I'm wondering is because he did not get a lot of time you know 22 months yeah That's, I mean, I'm sure for him, it felt like an eternity. But for me, that's like, that's not even worth unpacking. Right.

So, you know, but I'm wondering because, listen, I was still a complete, a complete, you know, jerk off. I mean, for, I'm still kind of a jerk off. But this is a mild, but it took years, a few years. Okay. I'm wondering, did you, when he got out, did you see a change in him at all? oh that's great then yeah a good change i mean like yeah i think completely yeah because that's yes yes good completely yeah and then he wrote the book so he wrote the book i think the book got published maybe right as i go back to school maybe before that i forgot and then the movie comes out

2013 i get my doctorate in 2015 so i'm going to school while the book and the movie are all being made oh okay yeah um and did it did anything Like were there negotiations where they came to you and said, like, what about the name thing? You mentioned the name? Yeah. So what happened is that, so he wrote this book and, you know, I read it. And I was like, what the hell is this? And he's like, no, I did it for you.

I did it for us. I'm like, no, you didn't do it for me. I'm happily remarried. You did it for you. That's okay. I don't agree with what you're doing, but it's your life, you got to do it, right? I mean, I didn't think it was going to get made into a movie. Yeah.

I mean, and, you know, because you have to remember, here I was, I survived this Greek traumatic tragedy. That's behind you. I've restarted my life. And now it's following me, right? And so, you know, the best plans go awry, I guess. And so then he tells me he's going to get it made into a movie. And I'm just like, okay, the hits just keep on coming. But it took a while for it to become, it didn't, it didn't happen right away.

It was like years, like seven years, years. Yeah. It was, it took a long time for it to be. come a little bit. You had to be thinking to yourself, okay, it's not going to happen. It's not going to happen. But, you know, I should know that usually when he says things are going to happen, they happen. And so then they wanted to use my name. And they called me at Martin Scorsese's office. And they said, hi, you know, this Martin Scorsese's office. And so we want to hear you don't want to use your name. And I said, well, it's not my narrative. I have no creative input. I make no money. This is like a little

stand that I'm making change my name right and I said I'm not going to sue you I'm not going to fight this this I realize this is much bigger than me I'm going to surrender into it and do me the courtesy yeah just change my name now little did I know it was going to be martin-squise's biggest movie right to 500 million worldwide and everybody knew it was me anyway right I was going to say have you looked back and thought am it didn't change but for me it was important at the time And I don't think your character, your character didn't look bad anyway. No, no, it didn't. But remember, I don't know how on Scorsese's got, listen, think about Goodfellas.

Think about Casino, right? Sharon Stone. I don't know how he's going to portray me. Right. And, you know, and you have to remember, now I'm becoming, I have a private practice. Yeah, yeah. So I'm a therapist. I'm like, who the hell is going to want to come to me for therapy?

But meanwhile, the opposite happened. Right. Everybody wanted to come because they said. wait, you went through this and you came out like this, I want to work with you because you walk your talk. Right. Yeah, yeah. But I couldn't imagine that it was going to have a good outcome.

No, no, you probably is, but it was the right call. You can't look back on it. You know, it was a right call. I'm sure for that at that moment, it was definitely a call. Yeah. Because it could have gone the other way. It could have gone the other way. And again, and now the best part is, is that I get to exploit the most misogynistic movie

to help women everywhere. Yeah, that's it. There's an upside. I couldn't have written it better if I tried. But even when the movie came out, I wasn't thinking I was going to use the movie at all. Like, Entertainment Tonight, everybody called me, and I never said a word because I had nothing to say. And then over time, I had something to say. Right.

How long? So when did you decide, when did you decide to, is this your first book? This is my first book, yes. Okay. Why? Why so long? Why did you wait so long? Because, well, first of all, if you've written a book, you know, it's the hardest thing in the world to do.

I know writing a book, my book, about me was the hardest thing. Yeah. You know, I don't, people don't tend to see themselves the way they act. Other people see them the way they actually are. Correct. And so that, it took multiple rewrites before I kind of figured out, you know, I'm kind of a scumbag. And, you know, you have to, you have to really kind of, you know, it's like. Also with that.

Yeah. Yeah. I get that. If 50 people say you're an asshole, here, you're probably an asshole. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. So, you know, you start interviewing people that knew you, looking over documents,

looking at the things that people said about you. You start thinking, wow, you know, like I'm not really a great guy here. Like all these cool things I thought I did. So that's why that took so long. But I've written a bunch of books since them. Yeah. And keep in mind, almost all the books I wrote, I had a hundred, I don't have, I'm in prison with all the time in the world.

Got it. The books that I've written outside of prison, you're right. It takes forever. It takes a long time. Yeah. Yeah. And so what happened for me was that I had a private practice in Los Angeles and all of these bright, smart, beautiful women were coming in in toxic abusive relationships.

And I was like, are we in the 1950s still? Like, what's happening? They're getting coercively controlled. They're getting betrayed. They're getting financially abused, emotionally abused. And so, because I'm a total nerd in academic, I went back to the research and I did all this research about trauma bonds and pathological people and who were in the trauma bonds, why do people fall prey, how to escape, the symptoms you get, and how to heal.

And so I just decided to write a book. You just started formulating an outline and started putting the other pieces. And then I just did tons of research. So that takes forever. Your kids are grown by this point. Yes. But at least the kids are out of there. Yes.

So that doesn't, that's a little bit of time. So you've got a thriving practice. This guy's got to take up some time, right? Yes. I can tell he's not completely functional on his own. That's going to take some work. Yes. Somebody has to manage, you know.

Yeah, yeah. So we have to give attention to the people we love. And you have to, you have to write. How long did it take? So how long did it take? I would say about three years. Three years. Yeah, two to three years because first, well, from the time you finish, it take nine months to publish.

So I would say about a year and a half before that, yeah, writing, waking up every day at 4 a.m. before my patients, I'm a crazy person. I'm a determined crazy person. And I really want to help people. I really want to help women because, and also you have to remember, that was when like Jeffrey Epstein, right, Harvey Weinstein. and we were seeing all these deeply pathological people in the zeitgeist. So that was like 2012. So it was always just all of this information was out there. All these, the casting couch type of things that you would think don't really go on anymore, but they do go on. But they do.

You've got, you know, it's the same thing. Even with like the ditty stuff, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. These guys are surrounded by yes men and paying everybody to be yes men. It's disgusting. You just start thinking that you're infallible and there's nothing you can't fix. And it's funny because when I wrote my book, my dad was narcissistic, obviously, the apple. But I remember when I was a little kid, I tell this story.

And, you know, he obviously, he had a bunch of agents. We worked for State Farm Insurance, was a manager, made a bunch of money, right? This was back when if you worked for an insurance company, you made money. Okay. You weren't struggling. Yeah. And he was a manager and probably made $250,000 to $350,000 a year. And this is 30, 40-something year year year here, right?

That's a lot of money. Yeah. So, and everybody, you know, if he got drunk, my mother was a huge enabler. You know, she's telling the neighbors he's sick. She's calling in for work. He doesn't feel good. He's, oh, we're not sure. I mean, just doing everything to kind of.

To keep him aflo. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And but, you know, it always worked out. And he was always managed to stay on top. And even when the state farm would come in, and his boss would realize this guy's drunk, like showed up at a meeting with a thousand people

and goes up on stage drunk and gives a speech. Oh, boy. They take them and they put him in rehab. This is like, they don't. really do this anymore you're basically fired like yeah yeah first time they put him in rehab for 30 days next time was 60 then they gave a 90 day program this is over the course of 10 or 15 years well they really stood behind him he made him a lot of money right so he's a good manager he's always in the top right one two percent so I remember being in a car one time and a driving in the BMW and um I'm wearing

a little eyes odd shirt I told this story the other day I'm wearing the little eyes odd shirt And my dad's dressed up. We're going to the movies because that was our father, son time. And honestly, typically he would drop me off with like 20 bucks and say, I'll be back. Right. You know, and he'd come back like six hours later and pick me up. So, and then, so we're in the car. And I remember looking over at the car next to us.

And it was like an old beat-up Chevy Nova. Rusted out. Yeah. Kids are in the back. Dirty, a bunch of dirty little kids in the back. Push their faces pushed up against the back. window, you know, just horrific. And I'm wearing a brand new BMW. My dad's in a, you know, shirt and tie and I'm, I'm a little eyes on. I'm like, whatever, nine years old or

10, whatever, forget what, how old I was. But I remember looking at them and feeling kind of ashamed, you know, like I was embarrassed because they were staring and I knew they were poor. And I remember looking at my dad and he was smoking a cigarette. I guess back when he was smoking. And he, with the windows up, that kind of, you know what I'm saying? They had the, they had the, they had the, the sunroof where it had a little crack in it right so that's yeah a listen like and i remember he blew he used to do this all the time if i look at he'd blow a smoke ring at my face can you imagine no i mean it would go right around me because i if you you saw it you know to a kid that's cool yes you know and i looked at him he blew a cigarette and he looked over there at the he looked at the

kids and he looked back at me and he goes huh because i wonder what the poor are doing today And I went, I just remember thinking, I can't believe he just said that. Even as a child, you knew that was a shocking thing. But you know what I thought? I remember, too, in that moment, thinking to myself that no matter what you have to do in life, it is always better to be driving the BMW than it is the Nova. Yeah, that was a seminal moment for you. Yeah, for me, I've always just thought that like you, you can behave.

however you, if you make enough money, you can behave however you want. Like, I remember thinking that, growing up, I need to grow up, I need to make a lot of money. Yeah. That was a big thing. And my friends didn't, they weren't thinking that. The whole time I was growing up, I was thinking, I need to, no, I need to figure out how to make a lot of money. Right.

Well, the person that I describe in my book is, I call them a pathological lover. And I have a sentence that describes them. And you might resonate with this from your old cell. old self. Yeah, I'm all better now. Not your today's self, but they will use harm, exploit, and betray anybody and anyone to get their needs met for money, power, pleasure, and status. Seems reasonable. Yeah. That's it. That's, that's, that's, that's, that's the mentality. Yeah. No, I can see that. Yeah. And that's, and when you're in love with somebody like that, it kind of sucks. Yeah. Do you think there is a way for the pathological lover?

to become self-aware or fix themselves kind of without a tragic event like going to prison or getting in a crash with your kid in the car or well let's think about it logically why would they if you're getting all your needs met for money power pleasure and status and you're delusional and you think you're great right there's no reason to change right yeah oh i would have never changed right but until life brings you to your knees then you have a choice right it's the Yellow brick road. You could go this way or that way. It's my buddy Pete. It's the Pete saying of the, he says, you know, he's like, you can't, you can't go to prison and continue to behave in the same manner that got you to prison and then leave prison and not expect to come back. Right.

You know, you have a finite, you have an amount of time that you need to make a fundamental change in your behavior or you might as well expect to come back here. Right. So don't leave and think, you know. I don't have to change anything. Right. It's everybody else's fault. It's not my fault. It's your fault.

Okay, well, you're going back to prison. I mean, in my case. Well, no, no, no, no, that is, that is, that is the way this pathological person thinks. They have a victim mindset. Right. Right. So they think everything happens to them and they're blaming everybody because they can't take accountability. Right.

They don't have remorse. They don't have empathy or compassion. But it's never their fault. Yeah. So if it's never your fault, what do you need to change? Right. so but but people do change you can have a functional narcissist i i just to me and i always say this even even to this day i'm colby to this day well he probably has already had this conversation

with his wife um but i like i always i'm always say look i feel horrible for anybody that has a personal relationship with me because it's it's totally one-sided even to this day i'm sitting you know when i'm talking to somebody yeah i'm really just looking waiting for an opportunity to talk about myself. Yeah. I could tell. Yeah. No, I know shit.

But you know what I'm saying? Even though I know it. Even though I know it. Yeah. Well, like it's a, and it's a horrible situation to be in when you're sitting there thinking to yourself. And the few people I find really find interesting where I'll just, you ever look in the comments section and people are like, I love Matt because he lets the guests talk.

But that's because he's talking about a bank robbery or credit card fraud or something. or something that I find fascinating. Yeah. So I say nothing. I'm like, oh, I don't understand. How'd you do such and such? Okay. And then I just shut up.

Yeah. But that's because I find the only people that I truly find interesting are criminals. That's horrible. Other than that, it's a challenge. Well, do you feel shame? Do I, do I very seldomly. Okay. Almost never, really.

Almost never. Okay. Like it's the guys, there's lots of guys in prison that are there for some kind of scam. And they're all kind of con men, is what I kind of say. Yeah. Like, it's like, oh, he's here for fraud. He's a, he's a con man, you know. Most of those guys in prison are, spend their time in prison, figuring out how, one, of course, to get out.

So how am I going to get out? And how am I going to reinvent myself so that nobody knows, I was in prison? Like, am I going to change my name? Can I do a website? Can I do this? How can I reinvent myself? Basically, to me, that you're, they're planning on, they're really. just planning their next indictment.

Mm-hmm. And I was the only person that thought, you know, I'm not going to do that. I'm going to lean into it. I'm going to be extremely honest. Yeah. Because, but then again, I also wrote a book. So I realized during the course of writing that book, like what an asshole I was. Yeah.

And I thought, you know what you're going to do? You're just going to be honest from the rest of your life. And if you have to sleep in somebody's spare room and take the bus, then that's just what you're going to do. Okay. You know? Yeah. But.

So you might a shift. perception and you changed. Yeah, but that doesn't change, that still doesn't change the, I feel bad for people that have relationships with me. It doesn't change, it changes some of it. Yeah. But not enough that I don't consider myself still narcissistic. Yeah. You know, which is, which is tough, especially when you know it and you try and make those changes and it's like you're fighting with yourself. Yeah. Does it make sense, you know, it's. Yeah, well, you have an internal conflict of a way that you were programmed, right? probably from when you were a young child,

but then your adult self has some conscious awareness of like, that's really not fair to the people around me. Right. So you're trying to fight it, but at least you're trying to fight it, and at least you're aware enough that you know you're trying to fight it.

You know, plenty of people don't. They're still in that victim mindset. They're still like truly, truly pathological, where it's everybody's fault. They blame everybody. Everybody's exploitable and you. Hey, we know you probably hit play, to escape your business banking, not think about it.

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and that's why I wrote my book so I can educate people because you have to remember if you're a person like me who does not think like that right right I trust everybody um that doesn't mean I'm not selfish from time to time of course I am but I'm altruistic I want what's best for people I want to help people right so you and I have very different mindsets so then what happens is well maybe you know especially from who you used to be so What happens is that when I, if I would have met you, when you were that guy, right, I'm going to get decimated because I'm never going to see you coming. Yeah.

Right. And I'm never going to understand how you think because I don't think like that. And I think you think like me. Yeah. So I'm screwed. Yeah. Right. So that's why I wrote my book to say to people like me or naive and just aren't programmed

to be like that. You need to know there are people in the world like this. and if you're going to fall in love with them and build a family with them and a life with them, you need to think twice. Yeah. So is it get out of that situation or put up walls and or...

No, hence the name, run like hell. Right. Like, let's not even give them a chance. Right. So that's why... But if you're in the situation, what do you do? Well, if you're in the situation,

first of all, you have to admit that you're in the situation. You have to have radical acceptance. I am in a trauma bond. I am in a talk. toxic dysfunctional relationship and you have to get educated about it because education is the only way to empowerment because you can't be tricked anymore. Right.

I write all the tricks in here. Right. Right. So I have a pathological lover checklist that explains who this person is. And then if somebody's in and they say, oh, this, this, this, they score, you know, 10 out of 20. I'm in a trauma bond. I need to get educated. and then what I say to them.

So two things. The pathological person wears a mask. At first they're like Romeo, but then they become dirty John. Okay. So I say to the female, you have to wear the mask now. You have to,

once you internally decide you want to leave, you have to not say a word and plan behind the scenes. Right. Because you're going to tell us somebody who wants power and control over you that you're leaving. How happy you think they're going to be? Yeah, yeah.

They're not. So you have to have radical acceptance. You got to wear the mask and you got to plan your escape and leave. Yeah, you can take that book with you. Glad my wife left. You know, when we get to her? No. Yeah, so that's because you can understand how women get trapped if they don't understand it.

So now my work is to educate women and empower them and help them find healthy love. Is there one major red flag, like before, let's say you meet somebody, you're dating somebody for a few months? Is there like, what are some of the major flags? Okay. So some of the major flags are somebody who's very grandiose. It's like you talked about super charming. they're they just they're just very confident right so the so the confidence the con man comes from the word confidence right so they that you can kind of read that con man part um also what will

happen is if you see substance abuse also as i described earlier if you try to set a boundary with them and they go ballistic you know you're in trouble if you have you can't have emotional needs when you're with a narcissist. So if you express a need and they say, that doesn't matter, get over it. Right. You're in trouble. And then you'll see over time,

their words and actions aren't going to match. So there's, I mean, I could go on and on. There's a lot of ways to define them. And also, if your gut feels like something's not right, this person's acting really nice, but something inside is saying, Uh-oh. Listen to that gut.

You don't think some of that is just being just a regular masculine guy, kind of the confidence or? Could be. Yeah. Yeah, it could be. But again, you'll see a pattern of behavior. It won't just be a one-off. You'll see a pattern of lies.

You'll see a pattern of grandiosity. You'll see a pattern of a lack of empathy. You'll see a pattern of substance abuse. I'm curious. I'm sorry, it's just, I'm going to go ahead. You guys were like, wait, I can't stop her. No, go ahead. I have a few questions.

I guess one would be, what are some examples from your own personal life as far as the charming, the gifts? What are some of the things that you experienced that maybe helped you overlook some of these red flags? Yeah, I would say. So that's what happens in the beginning of a trauma bond is the love bombing. Have you heard that term? I think I feel like I have heard the term. But it's, so for you, it's like the tons of ton of flowers. Right.

So what happened with my ex-husband? He would send his driver to my house with a Bulgari watch. Or he'd say, here's $15,000 in cash, go have fun. Right. I couldn't even spend it. Yeah. I had to buy my mother a stereo. I was like, I don't even know what to do with this.

So, yeah, so there's all these grand gestures that originally feel so fun. Right. But they do hide the red flowers. flags. They make you overlook the red flags. Did you have any type of support system while you're going through that? Like did anybody else know about the severity of the abuse? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he would do it in front of people. So people knew about it. But again, so I had a support system because I had my mother. I had my friends. I had my therapist. But again, when you're in love with somebody like this, right?

People would try to talk to me, but I'd be like, no, but I love them. And again, all of the people we hung out with, let's say the wives worked, their husbands worked for Jordan. Right. So nobody's really standing up. Yeah, nobody's saying you need to pack a bag and start selling your jewelry. Right. Right.

Not the advice that I give to women today. Yeah. Yeah. No. Last question on this kind of subject. Have you talked to his first wife? Is there any? No, I don't.

No. I've never spoken to her. No, she kind of disappeared. Do you talk to Jordan now? Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah. We have two beautiful kids.

My daughter's a therapist. Right. My son's a businessman and a musician. And they're great. they're 29 and 31. Well, you know, some people, they go their separate ways and they don't even talk anymore. Yeah, no, that wasn't, I'm not that type of person, you know, and he's their dad, and he's a good dad, and he loves them. And so I think him and I, one of the really good things that we did is that we always made a decision to come together for the kids.

Right. That doesn't mean we didn't have our arguments. But at the end of the day, I had him over, I had him over the day the movie came out. Christmas. You remarried? Yes. See, that's a problem for Belford, you know. You got remarried.

You've been remarried for, was it 25 years? Yeah. 25 years. Yeah. Kind of feel like, yeah, I wasn't the problem in the relationship, clearly. But he hasn't gotten remarried. He just did. Oh, he did?

He just remarried about two or three years ago and really nice younger woman. Yeah. A great girl. That's good. Yeah. Yeah. I know he lives in. Miami he lives in Miami yep yeah I actually was supposed to do this is when I was in California

I was so five years ago I was doing podcasts and I was flying to Los Angeles to do like three or four podcasts and his was one of them I'd been trading emails oh what I think was probably his his girlfriend at the time you know she said it here the assistant right but um i think i heard in something where he had said his assistant was his girlfriend or something okay so i don't know but uh we were trading emails and it was yes definitely when are you gonna be here we had a whole thing scheduled and then i was like hey i need you to send me the address and you know where to go and then because I was going to be there like three or four days done nothing and I was like hey the next I was like hey I'm I'm leaving today nothing and then you know they're hey what's going on

nothing nothing so I don't know what I don't know what I don't know what happened and then I actually did some paintings listen to this yeah I did you know I've got these paintings right so I actually did I think like four paintings kind of a pop art style of paintings put them in a box with a letter and sent them to his house and they signed for it oh because i wanted to have him on the program yeah never heard from really really i'll point in a good word for you very irritating very irritating uh especially since you know the whole con man thing you would think there would be some professional yes yes that's true uh you know and uh but yeah that's that's that's my uh only uh interaction were you able to meet margot roby and kind of train her about how to portray you

Yes, I was able to meet Margot Robbie. Yep. So what happened was that when they called to ask me, you know, why they weren't going to use my name in the movie, they said, oh, we would love for you to meet Margo Robbie because we want to get your accent. Like, you want my Brooklyn accent. Okay. And so I actually flew into New York to take my daughter to school because she was going to college. And then I met with Margo Robbie and her speech coach for a few hours. And they taped me and they got my accent.

and then my husband and I took her to dinner. Oh, that's cool. Yeah, she was 22. She was the age I was. That's perfect. Yeah, yeah. And we had a great talk and she had said to me, you know, I don't want to get naked, but I'm afraid to tell Marty and Leo. And I said that right there, your fear of speaking truth to power, that's why I felt my whole marriage.

So if you can get that feeling, you'll nail it. Well, she did get naked. she did get naked yes yes she did get naked yeah and there's no I don't think there's I from what I saw there's no reason for her not to be naked yeah yeah but she was nervous about it right Lisa yeah um in the scene of the movie where I believe the butler through a party and some money was stolen and then someone ended up hanging off the side of the building did that happen is that how it happened in the movie so in real life right so in the movie right so when um I walk into the apartment and, of course, that part is an exaggeration where I see all these

people having sex. No, that did not happen. But I guess we did find out that my butler did have a party in the apartment. And I don't know if somebody got hung outside, if he got hung outside the balcony, but I know that they did go and talk to him. But that's a very disturbing scene in the movie. Right. I did not like that scene.

That's sick. Which part? when they're beating them up and yeah that's kind of gross i don't like that um felt kind of appropriate yeah if he stole i forget how much money but i don't remember if that even is true i don't know if all that part is true yeah but that's what they that's what they do they take a a little scene and they go yeah you'd be better if this yes and it is better for the for the viewer for her walking in and this is what's happening and she's traumatized and yes yes yes the character is traumatized so it makes for a great scene. It does. You're in the movie you had an aunt that helped, I guess, launder money. Yes.

How accurate and true was that? That's 100% accurate. Yeah, my aunt was a British citizen. My Aunt Patricia, she was the head master of a children's school, which is so ironic. And yep, Horan Jordan worked out some deal. And yep, she helped him. This final arrest, how was it? Were they like storming the house or was it a big thing or was it kind of more low key well his final arrest in the movie they show him getting arrested at a heliport I believe but that's not what happened he got arrested at our house so I had gone to get my son's blanket at my friend's house and when I came back FBI with the jackets and the you know the lights get in the house and that's how that whole arrest went down never went to the prison you didn't want to do the whole prison thing

You didn't want to go see him in prison? No? I had no desire to see him in prison. My ex-wife came every... She'll tell you she came every month, by the way. That didn't happen. She did come every other month. Were you married to her at the time?

No. Oh, yeah. She just liked seeing me in prison. Yeah. Oh, no. I didn't... No, I didn't want to see him in prison. My kids did visit him.

They went with my aunts and uncle, but no. I never felt the desire to go to prison and see him. She would say, she's like, I like you being in here. When I want to talk to you, I can come. come see you. You're always here. I know where you are. Yeah. You were happy to talk to her because you were bored. She's like, I want to, if I want to, if I want you to call me, I send you an email. She's like, you make a call. She's nice. It's nice you being in here. I was just like, no, I did a good time. She had a little sadistic on her part. Yeah. She's like that in her out.

Yeah. No, that was, no, I did not visit. No, you're good? I mean, the only other question that I'm going to lead into is more so like what are you I know you've talked about what you're doing now but where people find you like oh sure yeah yeah so so every day I work with my patients and I love my job I feel really blessed to be able to do my job and so and then I interact with my social media which is the real Dr. Nate Dean on Instagram and then TikTok the wild west of social media Dr. Nay, L-M-F-T, and then I have a website, Dr.nai.com, N-A-E. Go there.

Everybody could get assessments, free resources, and then I'm actually starting an online community for women called a Trauma Bond Recovery Community, and you can find that on my website or tbr.doctrnai.com. So I'm busy. I'm on a mission. Are you, we talked a little bit about YouTube.

Are you actually thinking, Well, it was more your husband we were talking to. Yeah. Are you actually thinking about doing something with your YouTube channel or doing something with that? Or are you basically at the end of your bandwidth? Yeah, I'm pretty, I'm pretty, my bandwidth is pretty stretched. But, I mean, I'm not against that. You know, we just have to, that would just be like another project to get going.

Right. But it's, it's fun and it's exciting what I'm doing. And the best part is, you know, the thing about life is so interesting. is that if somebody would have told me, if somebody would have said to that 23-year-old girl, this is going to be your life. Oh, yeah. You're going to get married to the sky.

It's going to be crazy. You're going to have a book, rent, a movie made about your life. You're going to become a doctor and you're going to help women everywhere. I would say, you've got to be kidding me. Yeah, yeah. That's not.

But it happened. Yeah, that's life in general. I couldn't have told you five years ago. This is where I would be, certainly couldn't have told you 20 years ago. Right. I would have been in prison or like pretty much everything in my I couldn't have predicted any of the events that occurred and that's why I say to people don't worry it's going to work out

don't future trip it's going to work out that's right it always works out in the ends yeah yeah you're doing the right typically I mean what I think is if you're doing the right thing then God kind of lays out a plan for you right isn't true I believe that it's super funny so true It's like you just, you know, things just seem to kind of just, it's like as I'm walking. Yeah. As I'm walking, this, yeah. He's putting stuff out for me. Right. That's right. That's right.

And that's why, you know, when the movie happens, I'm so glad I took the attitude of just surrendering into it because now I get to exploit it and use it to help people everywhere. Right. Right. And so it just all worked out. That's good. Yeah. I'm sure there were many, many times when you didn't think it was going to. Oh, yeah, more times than not.

well what do you what do you think i feel good is there anything that you would want to touch on or say that you haven't at this point yeah i think no i think we i think we took good i liked our little banter about you know when you start to get into your whole narcissistic game to interesting interesting i think it's a interesting i think matt is harder on himself than You know, he's like, I don't know, he says, what you say, you don't feel shame. Yeah. Makes me, makes me think that people think, oh, like, he doesn't care. But is, but is, but.

No, I didn't get that sense. I was just curious. But I, I think that what's so funny is, like, now I'm, you know, and it, I, I'm, I think, and I can be wrong, you know. Like I said, you don't see yourself how you are, how other people see you. But, like, I think that now I'm, like, extremely. upfront and honest with people pretty much because I know that you know my past, right? Right. So I know that it's in my best interest to be overly honest with you, you know, even if it faults

me. Yeah. Because I don't want you to be able to come back and say, like, people think, oh, he's just a very honest person. Trust me, there's a goal. The goal is at no point can you come back and say, oh, you didn't say that. Oh, no. I said exactly that.

We're going to put out the interview. Here's what's going to happen. don't say anything that you don't want, you know, out there. Don't come back in two months and say, like, you know, I'll go overboard. And they're just like, so I laid everything out. And that's in everything. Even when Colby and I worked out our arrangement, like, it's not like, you know, here's how, here's our arrangement and all money is going to go to you.

And because we don't want money coming to me. You see what I'm saying? Like, not that I think I would do anything with it, but I want to be in a position. And I don't want to be in a position where you can say, that I promised you something that didn't happen. Yeah, you want full transparency. Exactly. I think that's why.

This is our agreement. You'll cut me a check. Good. Do you see what I'm saying? Like be very honest about every single thing. And that way it does. Because first of all, I can't, like, I can't be standing in front of a judge because if I was on a jury, I wouldn't believe me.

Right. You just read my past and I sit on the stand. I can't even defend myself. Even I wouldn't believe me if somebody read my. Right. So the truth, the truth is important. It's the best bet, right? Yeah.

Well, it always is. And then. If I'm sitting there, if I told you things that I had done in the past, like my wife has, like if I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah, one time I did this and I tell her what I did. And she's just like, like, I can't believe you would do that. Like that's, you see what I'm like, oh, no, at the time, I was absolutely manipulative. Yeah. I would definitely do that.

Yeah. Why would you think that guy would do that? Why? Because we're paying him $10,000 a month. And if he doesn't do it, then I'll pull that. he's probably living off of $150,000 a year. And I just yanked $100 to $120,000 out of his pocket. Of course he's going to fake the appraisal. And she's like, you have no problem with that. Absolutely not. Well, I think what I like about that is that I think it's good to admit when you're

manipulative or when you've been manipulative. Because I think it's in my mind. Yeah, I think it's important because also for someone like me who talks about it all day, I'm like, okay, no, I'm not Crazy. People are intentionally manipulated. Oh, yeah. It's so. So I think it's really, I'm very, what's the word? I'm just, I'm glad. And I'm very, I respect it that you do that a lot. Look, it's, it's so ingrained in me that there are times I'll say something. And then I'll stop myself and I'll think, damn, are you saying that because it's true? Yeah. Or are you saying that because you know when this person looks into it, they're going to see this and they're going to come back. And I'm thinking like, you know, you? You know what I'm saying? You're like, yeah. So it's like sometimes I think that people are manipulative. And I think it's so ingrained in them. They don't even know what they're saying.

Yeah. They sometimes don't even realize what they're doing. Right. And it's like so, yeah, so I've been, I feel like I'm constantly doing stuff like. It's so funny too because we were watching that, the movie. And my wife was getting irritated. Like, because they're, you know, behaving. Yes.

And it's not the drugs because it's funny. You were talking about like drug addiction. Yeah. Or. addiction in general. Like that wouldn't work with me. I've never had a drink in my life because my father was an alcoholic. I made a choice because it was so traumatic as a kid.

Yes, that's very common. I was like, yeah. I'm never going to do that. Yeah. Never smoked cigarettes, never smoked pot. Yeah. So, but we were watching the movie and just the way they were talking and his pitch and the over the top and, you know, work, do this, do that.

And I've said things like when. people are complaining, I'm like, well, you know, it'll fix that. What? Start working. Right. You know, and I do the whole boom, start working. Work until it's done. Like, you can fix it.

And I'll do this whole thing, that whole hype up thing. Yeah. And she's seen it. So when he's doing it in the movie, she's going, and she's looking at me and I'm like, don't, because I can see it. And as he's doing it, I'm thinking, oh, shoot, she's staring at me, right? And I look over, I go, stop, stop. That's not, she's like, uh-huh.

Uh-huh. All these little times, she would look at me and I'd be like trying not to laugh. I'm like, that's not. I've never. Oh, no. Never. Yeah. I would, how can't, I'm offended that you would even think that I, she is, you know.

She gave you the side eye. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, I, I, I, so it's funny because you, you talk, you talk about all these things in the book, but I mean, and these guys that are behaving this way.

Like, sometimes it's, it's just so, I think it's so ingrained in you. I wonder how you, just like you said, how do you, how do those guys, I know, your thing is like, I don't care about those guys. Yeah. I care about these women. Yeah. But I'm saying, but sometimes it's a woman who's narcissistic in general. Of course.

Of course. That's not just. But without a traumatic event, I don't know at what point you get the carpet yanked out from underneath you and you hit your ass hard enough that you go, hey, I have to alter my behavior. Yeah. Because I think most of them, it probably never happens. For a lot of them. Yes.

Yes. For sure. And do you think most are, I don't want to say, are they, you think they're aware, like self-aware, like, okay, like, I am a bit of a, you know, monster or whatever, or they just think, like, this is how it is and this is. I think, I think it's a mix. Yeah. I was to say, I'll bet you, I'll bet you most of them don't.

I think, I think, I think the reason why I think that they do know. is because they can turn it on and turn it off. Oh, you mean? Because sometimes they can be charismatic and charming. Yes, and then behind the scenes. So I think it is part of their personality, right? But then I think because they can turn it on and turn it off, there has to be an awareness.

Because I know I can act like a pathological, intimidating, dominating, jerk to this person because I want to get something from them, so I'm going to charm them. But I know I can act like this to my wife because she's stuck with me. And I want to get out all my everything. aggression on her.

Yeah. So I think there is a bit of an awareness. Well, because I was thinking to myself, like, but I was thinking more like if things go wrong, like do they ever realize it's their fault? And I was thinking that's probably most of them know. No, no, no, no.

They don't, well, they don't take accountability. Pathological, pathological people don't take accountability. And that's why they don't change because I don't think there's anything to change. Yeah, I was going to say. Because it works for them. I think these guys probably 95% of the guys are in prison. are, you know, suffer from, like, antisocial disorder. Yes, anti-social personality disorder, yes.

Listen, you can't, like, you're sitting there, well, not you're sorry, I would be sitting there listening to them talk, and it's just like, I'm sitting there thinking, like, and they're blaming the judge, their lawyer, the snitch. Yeah, they're blaming everybody, right. And I'm sitting there thinking, like, do you think maybe it's you having robbed 15 banks that I feel like you contributed a little. Yeah. But you have to remember when you have a true personality disorder, it's egocentonic, meaning

that's a big word. It just means this is who I am. Ego dystonic, if we feel anxious or depressed, we're like, oh, this doesn't feel right. This isn't who I am. But with a personality disorder, it's egosentonic. You're like, this is me. That's definitely. That's definitely.

Yeah. What did you get? This is what you get. I feel great. Right. The people that have, like, anxiety, you know, the people that seem anxious and they don't feel comfortable and they're awkward. Yeah. Like, I don't, I'm always like, I'll talk to those guys and I just think to myself like, what must this be like?

Because you clearly have anxiety and all these things that I don't have. Yeah, yeah. So it's complicated. That's why it took me years to write the book. Yes. What do you think, I'm trying to think of how to word. What do you think, like, makes someone like that, just their upbringing? Yes.

Do you think, like, success brings it out more, like, or what sparks it? Yeah, I think it's like anything. There's multiple causality to what makes a pathological person. I think there's a biological component, right? We're born with a certain temperaments, and there are certain genes, and then nature versus nurture, then the environment can turn it on. And then also, you know, we live in a patriarchy. So there's a hierarchy.

And so I think it's a combination of culture, your genes, your upbringing, and then poof, there's the person. I was going to say, what's the saying? Nature loads the gun and nurture pulls the trigger. Yeah. Oh, I've never heard that. Yeah. I had to look at it up the other day.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's a combination that's why to study psychology takes a lot of years. There's a science. Hey, you guys. I appreciate you watching. Do me a favor. Hit the subscribe button. Also, please check out Nadine's book.

We're going to put the link to the book in the description. Go there, click on it, buy the book. Also, we're going to leave all of her social media and her website and the links in the description box. Go there, click on them, check it out. Once again, really appreciate you guys watching. Thank you very much. See ya.