Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - Unsolved Mysteries: Flint River Killer, Alcatraz Escape & Other Cold Cases

Episode Date: January 31, 2025

Matt and Sheryl talk about various cold cases. Sheryl “Mac” McCollum is an Emmy Award winning CSI from CBS46’s CSI Atlanta, Director of the Cold Case Investigative Research Institute (CCIRI), a writer for CrimeOnLine, Forensic and Crime Scene Expert for Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, and a CSI for a metro Atlanta Police Department. Sheryl holds a master’s degree in Criminal Justice with an emphasis on Policing. Sheryl's podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/39AxkVOTQ9HjcNqykeJHX4 Follow me on all socials! Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/insidetruecrime/ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@mattcoxtruecrime Do you want to be a guest? Send me an email here: [e-mail] Do you want a custom "con man" painting to shown up at your doorstep every month? Subscribe to my Patreon: https: //www.patreon.com/insidetruecrime Do you want a custom painting done by me? Check out my Etsy Store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/coxpopart Listen to my True Crime Podcasts anywhere: https://anchor.fm/mattcox Check out my true crime books! Shark in the Housing Pool: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0851KBYCF Bent: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BV4GC7TM It's Insanity: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08KFYXKK8 Devil Exposed: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08TH1WT5G Devil Exposed (The Abridgment): https://www.amazon.com/dp/1070682438 The Program: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0858W4G3K Bailout: https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/bailout-matthew-cox/1142275402 Dude, Where's My Hand-Grenade?: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BXNFHBDF/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1678623676&sr=1-1 Checkout my disturbingly twisted satiric novel! Stranger Danger: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BSWQP3WX If you would like to support me directly, I accept donations here: Paypal: https://www.paypal.me/MattCox69 Cashapp: $coxcon69

And they start talking about we're going to escape. And he's like, look, I was a scuba diver in the Navy. Y'all don't set a chance with these tides. They're too rough. The water's too cold. And at Alcatraz, the one benefit they were given was hot showers. Other prisons, you might have to take a cold shower, but not Alcatraz, because they didn't want them to get acclimated to cold water. So he's sitting there telling them, look, if you do this, you're going to have to leave on this side of the island at this time of day when the tide is in this.

predicament because it'll actually push you toward Angel Island and that's going to be your best benefit. So listen, Matt, it's the only case in history that I can find where a serial killer becomes a true victim of crime and then he reaches out to law enforcement for help because the detective that originally arrested him for his murders, he asked when she was still missing, can you find her? He said, you caught me after 25 years. Can you find my daughter? What? Exactly. You couldn't even come up with it. Like, this sounds so insane that it's almost fake. We're at lunch one day, and he looks at me and he says, hey, do you mind if I give your kids some advice? And I said, of course not. You know, please. So he looks at my daughter who's 10 and he says,

Never. Hey, this is Matt Cox, and I am here with Cheryl McCollum. She goes by Mack. She's in law enforcement. She was on CSI Atlanta. She is involved in cold cases. And we're going to talk about some cold cases and just some, and basically her background. So check out the interview.

Where were you born? I was born in Atlanta. Georgia, grew up in Fulton County my entire life, even went to college in downtown Atlanta at Georgia State, still work in Fulton County. So I'm right here, native. And how did you, so what got you interested in law enforcement? Wait a minute. Was it your mom? Yes. Okay. No, but no doubt. She, my mother could tell a story that would just stop you dead in your tracks. And she was a tremendous gifted storyteller. And she knew a ton of history. She was a history teacher. So she would craft it in a way that you would just be on the

edge of your seat. Well, we used to take long car trips. And when you would get outside Atlanta, about an hour and a half, the radio wouldn't work any longer. Well, she had five girls to entertain. So she would usually start somewhere like, you know what this road reminds me of? Well, then we would know, here it comes. And the first story that I remember being captivated by was Bonnie and Clyde. And it just went from there. And so then she would tell us stories about John Dillinger and Al Capone and Babyface Nelson. And it just never stopped being interesting to meet. So from the age of four, own, you know,

it was always, what can I learn about? What can I read about? Who can I go meet? What can I go see? And when they were, when I was eight, they took me to see the death car. And then when I was 12, they took me to Alcatraz. So it just

never left me. Yeah, what did Bonnie and Clyde? Was it 18 months or something? They're 16 months. They're crying. You know, it seems like it was, you know, if you hear all the stories and you think, think, oh, pretty much years and years, but it wasn't that long. It was not that long. Nope.

I was wonder, I wonder what the real story is, you know, because there were, there are like those reports and the documentaries that talk about how, gosh, was it, who was the FBI director then, Hoover, right? Like he was, you know, kind of trying to manipulate the press, you know, what was happening. what wasn't happening and then it was like okay they were gunning down the officers or wait maybe the officers shot at them first or you know like i don't know but it's kind of like i i said earlier before we even started about that the con man guy that i watched that movie about it was a it was a movie that was based on true events but it was a real story and i talked to the the guy that wrote

wrote the story and did all the uh investigating and the guys on the fbi's most onerless like Yeah. He was, he was a kind of, he was kind of a con, he was very much. He was a con man. He was always running a little scams and things. And then suddenly he ended up just out of the blue. He just, he robbed a courier and he shot and killed him. And it was so senseless that it just didn't, it made no sense at all. It was out totally out of character. So. Right. You just never know. Like you think like Bonnie and Clyde, like they're robbing banks, but they don't really want to hurt anybody. But then again, that doesn't mean that they weren't. necessarily also killing people. Maybe they did. Maybe they, who knows. Right. Well, I'll tell you, I need to introduce you to Raylene, Linder, and Buddy Barra. They are family members of Bonnie and Clyde. And they can tell you firsthand what they know. Raylene knew everybody involved. And their story is, I don't even know how to tell you how captivate me. And it's a good, you know, again, to me, if you look at the history of crime, you can see the history of America. And when you talk about somebody like J. Edgar Hoover, he was a marketer.

He was brilliant. When he came up with, you know, the most wanted, you know, public enemy number one, that's genius. Because now you've got everybody bawled in to get in this person. So if, in fact, you know, John Dillinger's gunned down on the street, you've already told everybody he's the most violent person there is so nobody questions anything about it you know so I mean to me he did an unbelievable job in that regard but there's always

two sides so I think you know if you got a chance to talk to Ray Lane you would just adore her right I mean there's just there's so many underhanded things that you know Hoover was involved in that um was it

there was there were these there was a not plot where they dropped off these saboteurs and one of the one of the Germans went straight to the FBI and said hey listen this is what's going on like I we landed there's like six six of us we're supposed to blow this stuff up I don't want to be involved and they go and they arrest all of them including the guy that went to them and they they they try them and they give them they all get like the electric chair and just before the one the one of the one one of the, the main guy that had gone and turned them in. And keep in mind, they didn't even want to believe him. He had to show up with a bunch of counterfeit money. He pulled out like, like $30,000 in counterfeit U.S. bills and said, look, they gave us this money to use.

It's counterfeit. They were like, what the hell? So that was, that made them think, oh, this has got to be real. Yeah. It turns out like the president commuted the guy's sentence the life. But Hoover had pitched it as, we discovered this plot. we arrested these guys and then it ends up getting these guys the the death penalty and never says this guy came forward he was the reason and he's ready to execute him too what a great way to keep him quiet yeah there's so many little underhanded things like that about hoover that so it's i don't i don't know uh it's is the same thing with like you know the bonnie and clide thing like where they you know they definitely they definitely murdered some people but i wonder how it came about And they definitely robbed some banks, but did they rob all the ones that they were, you know, penned for?

Right. I mean, there was no better time basically to rob your own bank and blame it on them. Right. Think about it. Or how much was, you know, how much was actually taken, you know? Exactly. They got $500, you know, but they got $200. Right.

Right. So the Alcatraz thing, we had talked about the Alcatraz. that you had met one of the guys that was an Alcat's a bank robber? Yes, Robert Chavon, inmate 1355, honey. Why didn't you? So how did you get connected with him? I got connected because, again, I'm a history buff when it comes to crime, and sometimes a story will just resonate with me.

Well, the way he robbed banks, his getaway vehicle was the USS Franklin Delano Roosevelt. greatest getaway vehicle ever. It's got to be. I mean, that beats a Model T, that beats an airplane. I mean, come on. Right. Right. So the way he would, you know, commit these crimes, he would stash civilian clothes in a locker at the bus station when they dock the first time, when they came. Navy. Because he was in the Navy. Right. So when they came around the second time, he would go to the bus station, change out of his uniform into civilian clothes, walk down the street, robbed the bank, walk back, change. And change back into his uniform and literally walk back on the ship. Well, anybody walking in downtown San Francisco or wherever he was, they're not going to look at a naval man twice. So even if they've gotten some alarm call, they're not going to look at him. And that's not how, you know, the witnesses are going to say he was dressed anyway. And by the time they're really investigating the case,

that literally that ship has sailed. And he's in another port. and it was just such a brilliant yet elementary type, you know, scam that I thought, I got to meet this guy. And then from our first meeting, we just became friends. And, I mean, he was funny. He was smart. He would openly tell you different things.

And he put a lot of things in perspective. And the first time I got to meet him in person, I got up on the porch. I knocked on the door. And he's in the back of the house. and says, you know, come on in. And so I was joking with him that, you know, hey, you know, you're not real security conscious, you know, being funny. And he went, listen, the minute I walked out of Alcatraz, I told myself, I will never be behind a locked door again. And I thought, you know what?

I get it. I love that. So, you know, you learn from anybody. So I can learn from a fantastic police commissioner and I can learn from an ex-criminal. They all have an expertise to share that you can use for the greater good. And he's just one of those people that I just connected with on a lot of levels. And he was a family person. He was super devoted to his family.

And in a full circle moment, again, when I was 12, my parents took me to Alcatraz. Then I befriended Robert. And then his daughter invited me to participate in his memorial service. service, own Alcatraz, which was an experience, oh my gosh. I mean, I can't even tell you. It was just, it was overwhelming to see the devotion of his daughter and then the respect from the Rangers. I mean, it was, it was really unbelievable. And we had Michael Eslinger, who's an expert in Alcatraz. He's written tons of books. I mean, he was basically our private guide along with the rangers so we got to go places the general public didn't you know doesn't ever get to

go so it was awesome and you you were saying that he his daughter like released his ashes underneath the the cell under his cell window yes so he wanted her to you know stand there literally under his you know prison cell and you know release his ashes so he could get off that island one more time and if you knew him i mean that's part of humor. And it's also part of, you know, for him, it was just this, I'm going to be free. And it was more of that than, you know, anything. So it was just, it was touching. It was interesting. For historical purposes, again, you know, if you look at America, you can track America through crime. I mean, the American mafia, you can take it all the way through the, you know, the way

people rob banks, the way, you know, shootings happen, the way murders happen, especially some of the, you know, big-time famous things that we all know, but Alcatraz is pinnacle to me. When, you know, when you mention him, like, dressing up in, it's funny because he, it's kind of like the opposite of the Thomas Crown affair, you know, where he actually gets into a uniform that everybody sees, that everybody recognizes, but it's certainly not. not what the police have been told to look for. Exactly. So I actually, I was locked up with a guy named Anthony Curseo who had robbed a,

and done a lot of research, like really kind of figured this out. He, you know, of course, he watched the Wells Fargo truck show up at a Bank of America, off the money. he knew somebody that was that actually worked there that he you know never you know wouldn't wouldn't you know they knew something was wrong because it was a drop of like 350,000 or 290,000 like it was an excessive amount of money for for those types of drops and he watched them knew the schedule he had an outfit right he had the face mask. I mean, sorry. You know, the guys that go around and they pick up trash. So he had a face mask,

that little dust mask. He had an orange, you know, the little reflecting thing that you wear. The vest. He had the little, we call them Cadillacs in prison. The long thing, so you don't have to bend over, so you pick up. And the little scooper thing, you put it in. And blue jeans and a white shirt. And that was his kind of, he would dress up like that and wander around while he watched the schedule of when these guys would come and go. And then he would take his stuff and roll it up and stick it in the bushes and then leave and then come back and keep watching him. So he knew the schedule of the deliveries. And he went out and he got bear mace. And he actually sprayed himself with the bear mace to see, you know, it's like it's mace, you know.

Sure. Just to see if, you know, how bad is this going to decapacitate this person, this guy? Because he said, I didn't want to use a gun. I didn't want to hurt him. And I didn't want to be charged with the gun. If something went wrong, I didn't want them to say, hey, you used a gun. Using forgeries and bogus identities, Matthew B. Cox, one of the most ingenious con men in history, built America's biggest banks out of millions. Despite numerous encounters with bank security, state, and foreign.

federal authorities. Cox narrowly, and quite luckily, avoided capture for years. Eventually, he topped the U.S. Secret Service's most wanted list and led the U.S. Marshal's FBI and Secret Service on a three-year chase, while jet-setting around the world with his attractive female accomplices. Cox has been declared one of the most prolific mortgage fraud con artists of all time by CNBC's American Greene. Bloomberg Business Week called him the mortgage industry's worst nightmare, while Dateline NBC

described Cox as a gifted forger and silver-tonged liar. Playboy magazine proclaimed his scam was real estate fraud, and he was the best. Shark in the housing pool is Cox's exhilarating first-person account of his stranger-than-fiction story.

Available now on Amazon and Audible And then this is where he This is where it just became It's like okay all of that's like okay And then did you ever heard this story? No Okay And then he put an ad in Craigslist

For the Clean Up Seattle Foundation And he was they were paying $22 an hour For full-time employment and it started on whatever it was Monday and 20-something people applied he sent them all a list saying that's fine you have to show up at five of them showed up at one one area five showed up at another

five showed up in another five at another and he said you have to show up with your Cadillac with your your vest he sent them a link on where they could buy it with the face mask everything wear blue jeans and a long sleeve shirt and he said that's basically your outfit so you have to buy the stuff first show up there that day at this time at you know be there between 9 and 930 because that's when the truck arrived and he went he showed up too wow so he said guys are walking around they're like man what should we do he said some of the guys

are actually walking like a block away picking up trash already like they're already like they're already picking up trash. And they, when they were told, start working, your supervisor will be there between 9 and 930. He said, I just did the same thing. I just kind of hung out near the parking lot. And then I saw the truck. Yeah, I saw the truck. And he said, as soon as I saw the truck, and the guy, he said, it was like three quick steps from the alleyway, boom, boom, boom, hit him with the mace. The guy dropped the bag, screamed. He grabbed the bag and took off running. He ran through a wooded area, and he had an inner tube in a canal. and he said, I just grabbed the intertube, jumped on the intercub, and the intertube took him down.

He said, just collided because in Seattle, they're kind of like little islands. They have like the road closed off. He said, they immediately closed the bridges. So they closed the bridges, so nothing but police could come in. He said, he jumped out, jumped off the intertube, ran up the street to a title company because he also was a real estate agent, walked in the front door. He said, I stripped off everything, walked in the front door. And she said, I mean, he goes, listen, as soon as I walked in, I was standing there, I said, hey, I need a copy of my closing statement from last week or from two weeks ago or whatever.

They were like, oh, okay. And he said, do you hear that? And they were like, what? And all he said, just then you started to hear the, who. He goes, this sirens or something. Wonder what happened? And they were like, yeah, I don't know. He's like, oh, yeah, I do.

I hear. It's just a, he said, so I knew if I ever needed an alibi, I could say, I was in that thing when I I heard this iron. Oh, that's brilliant. Didn't live too, too far from the place. Anyway, so yeah, they, they searched for him and searched for him and searched for him. And he's one of those guys that whenever people talk to me and say, you know, do you ever think about doing anything again?

I'm like, I'm like, yeah. And they're like, well, what would be the perfect crime? I'm like, well, I can think of lots of perfect crimes. They're like, well, then why don't you do something? I'm like, because I can't think of the fly in the ointment. And that's what gets you messed up. Got you. Yep.

Plan out some great, great crimes where you've never seen me. I haven't done anything. I was nowhere near it. You've got dropped phones and you're using different computers and you never have to go in the place. You never have to do anything. But I'm saying there's just, there's always that thing you cannot think of. And in his case, when he took off running, he'd never been arrested. He took his mask and he threw his mask down.

He said, I didn't mean to. I was just running. He said, I thought I had kept it with me and it just fell out. But I was running so fast, I didn't, I didn't. He's like, the thing is nobody was chasing him. You know, but he was gone. Like, I mean, literally before the phone call really went out, he was already on the inner tube. So he dropped his mask.

He said, no big deal. They got my DNA. It doesn't matter. I've never been arrested. And that mask could have come from any place anywhere. I wasn't too worried about it. um and he said so you know they got they've got nothing well the FBI came and they reviewed they talked to everybody and keep in mind the police show up they started arresting these guys

walking around with the they're handcuffing all these guys there's 20 of them walking around what's going on they get on the ground well yeah so you know but not him they got a lot of suspects so he he said what what ended up happening in that case was the FBI they They talked to everybody, and they were looking through all the reports that came in. Because people start calling in. It might be my neighbor. Might be this person. I think I talked to my buddy Joe down in the bar.

He said this. He said they went through it all, nothing. He said they went through it a second time when they came up empty, and they saw a report of a guy, a homeless guy, had walked up to a city worker who was working on, like, the sewer system and said, I know who robbed that bank. and they're like the guy said what and he said the guy was yelling and screaming he had a little dog he said he sounded crazy i said man all right all right get out of here he was well the guy he goes he did he did make a report the sewer i mean the guy working on this for the city made a little report hey this guy came up to me said he knows said he knows it but didn't want to talk to the police or something along those lines okay he goes well let's go try and find that guy he said they grabbed a bunch of hamburgers they went down

where the homeless are in Seattle and said, hey, do you guys know somebody with the little dog and a beard? They said, oh, you're talking about Bobby. Bobby lives in a bus in the woods. They go there, they pull up. They're walking towards the bus. Bobby walks out and says, man, I've been waiting weeks for you guys to, or I'm sorry, months for you guys to show up.

Is this about the bank robbery? And they said, yeah, do you know who the guy is? He's like, well, I don't know his name, but I got a license tag. Oh, my God. He had come. He said, oh, yeah, he came like every other day. right the thing and he would roll up his clothes and his mask and i got his tag number because anthony never even thought about the guy that was constantly walking around and lived in the woods

it's what you said the fly in the ointment how can you account for that right and that's my problem i'm like look you plan out this perfect crime and you did something you simply cannot account for and you end up and have you have to do 20 years so you think look I'm brilliant I'm smart I did everything correctly you can do everything correctly one person somebody else makes a mistake or somebody else happens to see something something you couldn't account for yeah my whole thing came unglued my scam because a girl I was working with went into the title company with an ID that had her picture on it, signed for a mortgage,

and the person that, the closing agent, the title agent, looked at her ID and said, this doesn't look like you. And she said, what do you mean? That's me.

No, something's not, something's off. This isn't you. Another title agent came in, looked at the picture and said, that's her. And she says, no, something's wrong.

This, I don't think this is you. I'm going to make some phone calls. I'll let you know took a good picture of her took a good put it on there blew it up made a good picture of the ID gave her ID back she left

how am I supposed to account for the fact that that title person was wrong right she made a mistake that unraveled my whole thing so anyway it's you know

like we were talking about the on Alcatraz about the guys that had escaped. And you had said that the bank robber, I forget his name. Robert. Robert, that we said Robert had actually known them,

sat down at the table with them. Yes. So they were assigned to the same dinner table. So there's Frank Morris and the Anglin brothers. They're all there with him. And they start talking about we're going to escape. And he's like, look, I was a scuba diver in the Navy. Y'all don't set a chance with these tides.

They're too rough. The water's too cold. cold. And at Alcatraz, the one benefit they were given was hot showers. Other prisons, you might have to take a cold shower, but not Alcatraz because they didn't want them to get acclimated to cold water. So he's sitting there telling them, look, if you do this, you're going to have to leave on this side of the island at this time of day when the tide is in this, you know, predicament, because it'll actually push you toward Angel Island. And and that's going to be your best benefit.

So what Robert did, part of his job was to go down to the lower end where they have one little guard shack right near the water, and he emptied the trash can. Well, the guard there was not supposed to bring in a newspaper. That was against the rules, but he did, and he would throw it away in that garbage can. Well, the San Francisco Chronicle published Tide Tables. So Robert would memorize them real quick, go back to his cell,

write some things down so that he got the rhythm and the pattern so that he could best tell them this is what you're going to need to do you're going to try to leave during this time this is your best shot so he was instrumental in helping them understand the best way to go about it which was crazy to me because again as a you know eight year old and then a 12 year old and then now thinking i've actually talked to somebody i've befriended somebody that had some small part into this escape. It was just, it was awesome for me. I mean, not just as a criminologist, but just anybody. I mean, that's a fascinating story, you know. And then he told me that the birdman of Alcatraz was involved as well, that he taught them Spanish because their goal was

to get to South America and they wanted to blend in as best they could and knowing the language would only help that. So, I mean, he was just an incredible person. He, a, wealth of knowledge. He was funny. You know, he was open. You know, we had a great friendship. Do you think that they made it? What do you think? You know, the 12-year-old me? Yes, I think they made it. You know, sometimes when I'm driving in my car and, you know, I start thinking about it. I'm like, yeah, you know, if they had it planned out like I believe they did and, you know, maybe a boat picked them up. Because there's rumors that a lot of the fishing vessels would, you know, toss out liquor and other things to get caught in the rocks for the inmates to find. So, you know, part of me

wants to believe that that's why the raft was discarded because they were pulled up onto a boat. Logically, is the water too cold and too rough and too shark infested? Yeah. I mean, most likely. But then you're like, hey, but the family got that one Christmas card and the expert said, the writing matched. And then you had the photograph. And again, the experts said that, yeah, that looks like them. So, you know, there's some evidence that they did make it. There's some evidence, obviously, that they didn't. You made a great point when you and I were talking privately that it's very difficult for career criminals, even if they make it to South America, to never have another issue, to never commit another crime, especially if you get there and you have no money.

Right. So they would have had to do something. So did they have plastic surgery? Did they go straight? I don't know. If they, in fact, made it. Can you imagine my surgery back then? Oh, sure. Sure.

It was rough, though. Oh, it would be rough and it would be horrible, but you wouldn't look the same. So I guess that would be the purpose. Yeah, very, very, I'd say unlikely that they went straight. But, you know, who knows? Or who knows, like we were saying earlier, like, you know, who knows with, with identification. Like, they could have been arrested three states over for bank rob, for robin five banks had just given them a different name. It's not like there was an aphist. They were going to pull up their fingerprints. I mean, they could print them, but the likelihood that they were going to compare them to these guys and they were going, you know.

So especially back then, if you had any kind of history, if your identity wasn't in question, then they really didn't question. Like, if they lived in the county for two years or. or assume someone's name or something. Or they may have just been like, oh, yeah. So you live in New York? You moved here two years ago. He robbed three banks? Yeah, throw them in jail.

He does five years and gets out. Who knows? You know, Robert Chablind told me that his goal, when he was still in Alcatraz, before he was released, he wanted the prince on the bottom of his toes to be put on his fingers. I don't know how that would work, but. Well, I mean, he had a doctor supposedly said that, yeah, he could take the top and then, you know, put them on. and then his fingerprints will be completely different.

And you had other people, you know, using acid or whatnot to burn them off and get rid of them. And Robert's idea was to replace them, which he thought was, you know, a smarter idea. But, you know, when he got released, he went straight. He opened up a dive shop and went back to what he had been trained to do in the Navy and was a scuba diver and taught scuba diving lessons the rest of his adult life. I guess if you're smart and you kind of get your head right, when you're locked up you can you start to realize that you can live on very little you know you really don't need like I mean I when I left the halfway house and I stayed in the

halfway house the whole time didn't even try and go home didn't not even I'm staying here everybody complained they take 20% of your like listen do the math you can't live anywhere else this cheap you know I just sat there did the number for one time. I said, oh, I'm staying here the whole time. And they're feeding me. So stayed there the whole time, got out, went and rented some, rented a room from somebody. You know, cheap. Going cheap. I mean, I was still thrilled. I had, you know, I had a, I had a, I had this little thing, this little magic thing here that I could watch YouTube for free. I mean, like there were so much stuff for free. For free. And I could, you know, I, I, I,

All I have to do is kind of go back. And if somebody cuts me off in my car and for an instant, you know, you get angry and I think I got time. Like it's fine. Yeah. You sound a lot like Robert. Robert's like, I'm never locking a door again. Like you can't upset me. You know, he was so funny.

He was like, look, I got a jug of vodka over there. I've got a TV. I've got a car. I can go do whatever I want to do when I want to do it. He said, I'll never be behind a locked door again. Life is good. Yeah. You know?

I say that all the time. I'm like, people don't realize how good it is out here. They have no idea. Right. But, you know, like, like I said, the recidivism is high, but that's because, you know, I think a lot of guys get out and they, they do well for the guys that intend to. There are other guys that I know guys that were, as soon as they got out, they were ready to commit crime. They were, that was just their life, you know, like I'm going to be in and out of prison.

And, you know, I'm going to try and stay out, but I'm not getting a job at Walmart. are like, they're just like, I'm not doing it. So. Oh, sure. So, but then there were other guys that I think they get out and I think a couple years go by and they get frustrated and they can't buy the things they want and they they lose side of the fact of how horrible prison, you know, is. And really it's not horrible. It's just, it's just so isolating. You have so little. And, and you get out here and there's such an abundance of everything that you start to think you deserve everything. You get feeling entitled. You get frustrated.

and their go-to move is crime. Yeah. Did you ever know Frank Collada from the whole No-Wal gang? He was a mafia hitman. That sounds really familiar. He's depicted in the movie Casino. No, but it's funny. I've interviewed a guy that knew like the guys that were in the movie Casino.

Well, Frank and I were, you know, buddies too. And one time we were at lunch. I'm sorry. Are these guys that you've met because of your podcast? No, these are people that I've met because of. of my job. I might be investigating a case or something and I feel like you're going to have information that I need and then they just turn out to be incredible people and are, you know, interesting

and, you know, they're, they are who they are, right? Right. But I mean, everybody has more than one side to them. But anyway, we're at lunch one day and he looks at me and he says, hey, do you mind if I give your kids some advice? And I said, of course not. no, please. So he looks at my daughter who's 10, and he says, never trust a man ever. So I thought that's pretty good. You know, just, you know, we'll talk about it a little bit more later.

But, you know, men can come at you with ulterior motors. So between now and, you know, 25, just keep that in mind. So then he looked right at my son and he said, and this goes to what you were talking about just a minute ago. he looks at him and he says reading never got me paid so my son of course took that to mean I'm never doing homework again it's a waste of time

but what he was trying to say was the education piece was never going to garner him the money that crime would and so to your point when you're talking about somebody that gets released and they're frustrated McDonald's is never going to give them the money that they won't. That's never going to get you a Lamborghini.

That's never going to get you a penthouse. It's never going to get you the Rolex. It's not. Right. And so your mindset has to change. And that's the biggest thing that I've seen. I mean, Robert, his mindset changed. His thing was, I can walk out in my backyard.

And nobody's going to tell me I can't go out there. I can get in a car and drive. So for him, that was worth millions. You know, but the person that is still, you know, chasing that, get rich quick, you know, calling, you know. Yeah. Oh, like, I feel like, like, you know, although I do, I work all the time. Mm-hmm. You know, but that's what I feel like, I don't really, but I don't feel like it, I don't feel like it's working.

Does that make sense? Like, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not laying block. I'm not hanging drywall. I'm not on a roof. In Florida, I mean, you might as well, you must be a sadist if you're going to be a roofer in Florida. I hear you. So, you know, I barely go outside during the day. I almost really never leave.

I'm actually going to steal my car because I was talking to my wife and I was like, listen, I'm paying like, like, $400 for the car payment, another $200 for, for um insurance this is ridiculous i'm like i never drive she drives up to the gym in the morning and back i said if i had to go somewhere it would be cheaper to uber i could uber eight times a month i could leave my house twice to tampa and back and still not pay six hundred dollars correct five or six hundred dollars whatever it comes to so anyway uh um but yeah i i basically never leave the house. Like, I, I do this. You know, I, I write, uh, I write articles. I do research articles. And, um, you know, I paint. Like, think about what I do. Yes. I talk to people.

Yeah. You know, I talk to people. I write stories. And, you know, I paint. Like, honestly, it really, like, do you really have a job? I mean, I make my own schedule. Right. It's, It's, it's really, like, the idea that I was, and anybody who's ever watched my show has probably heard me say this 30 times. The fact that, you know, I think remind, every time I start to get cocky or arrogant, I kind of remind myself, like, bro, five years ago, you were laying in a bunk bed in prison thinking to yourself, how am I going to make a living? Like, I was telling myself, you're going to get a job at McDonald's and you're going to work your way to another job that you like. And maybe you'll sell.

used cars, you're going to live in someone's spare room, and you're going to be happy. You're going to be thankful. Yeah. So, you know, and I would tell myself that. And so the idea that I'm making a living, goofing off, my, my wife says, you live a cat's life. Like, you, you, you take nats. You, you, you, you, and I'm like, that's what you think I do during the day? She's like, I do. That is awesome. You know. Yeah. But your story is inspired. And I think that's why it's so important. But it's the truth. If you think about five years ago, you're laying in that cot.

And people think, oh, when you get out, you're never going to be able to find anything. Your life's going to be crap. It's going to be whatever. And you have people telling you, why don't you try this? Why don't you go back? Why don't you pull off the perfect job? I mean, really? Thanks for the help, folks, because you're trying to get me peached again.

Like, why in the world? But what you're telling people is, you don't have. to have, you know, the corner office. You don't have to bus rots. You don't have to be laying tar on a roof. Good God Almighty. I mean, I can't think of anything worse in Florida, right? Yeah. I mean, I can't. And I know, like, our dad, we would be driving and he would see somebody doing that type of job. And all he would say is, girls, do your homework. I mean, that's hard work, you know, and again, I think for people that are listening to you that are maybe going to get out in six months or a year, okay, there are things you can do. And I think that's important

for people to hear. I do. Yeah, I, you know, you say the inspiration thing. I hear the inspiration all the time. I get emails from guys saying how inspirational my story is. I'm like, and I'm always Like, I don't, I'd never once tried to be inspirational. I interview guys that went to prison, got out of prison, and they'll sit here and they'll talk about, they'll, they'll, they'll preach in spirit, like preach, like, it's so obvious that they're trying to be, you know, but now I, it's all about the kids now. And it's all, it's like, you know, and letting them know not to do this. And I'm like, all right, all right, stop. It's so, I feel like it's disingenuous. It's like, stop. That's why you work. You're not trying. Yeah, I'm, so I'm like, but I keep getting these guys that come, but I also get the guys that, that send me the emails that say, bro, like I'll give you however much money you want if you'll just tell me how to do this, how to do that, help me set it up, help me do this. And I'm always like, are you serious? Like, you do understand that if you go out right now and just do anything, the feds are just going to add my name to the indictment. I mean, they're going to look at your phone. phone. They're going to see that we've spoken six times on the phone. They're going to see that we had correspondence. They're going to, like, they don't even have to tell the jury. They can just say, oh, by the way, he was in communication with this guy. They're going to like, add his name. That's then even if I said, hey, you know what, I'm going to trial. Wow, what a mistake that is. I can't take the stand. Because they're like, oh, you took the, oh, by the way, jury, now that he's taken the stand, we're going to list all the things he's been, you know, no. convict me again, even if there's no new evidence. And he was talking to this guy who got caught doing the same thing he was doing. Even if I was on the jury, I'd be like, yeah, bro, I don't,

hell of a coincidence. I'm like, don't talk to me about that. You sound like my husband. My husband laughs. I mean, I've got plenty of prosecutors and judges and special agents in my phone. But I also have the Frank Calatas of the world and Robert Shablin, Johnny Lee Cleary. And he says, what if something legitimately happens to you? And they go through your phone. And you've had contact with a hitman. You've had contact with this person in a hate group. You've had contact with this person. You know, but again, as they say, game recognizes game. You know, a con man is going to look at you and understand. A prosecutor is going to look at you and understand. So, you know, part of again, you are inspirational, and I think your story is important, and it's important for both

sides, because I have people that, you know, sometimes give me a hard time, like, how can you possibly say this criminal is your friend? Because he was. You know, he was good to me. He was funny. He was engaging. He taught me a lot. I mean, that's a good friend. And yeah, he had a past, but, you know, for the grace of God, right? Like, I started somewhat as a con artist. I'll take a story. You'll enjoy this. So I saw in a weekly reader where if you had chinchillas, you could make thousands of dollars. And that seemed like a get rich quick, which sounded good to me. I didn't want to work hard. I mean, I was, you know, six or seven years old. So I called the 1-800 number, and I wanted to order the whole thing. Give me the chinchillas, the incubators,

the lights. I need it all, because I'm going to be super rich. So then they said, okay, what credit card? And I was like, well, I don't know anything about a credit card. And she goes, we can send it COD. And I said, well, what's that? And she goes, that's cash on delivery. Let's do that. So we're, you know, in six to eight weeks, well, you know, when you're that little, that might as well be two years. I mean, I basically forgot about doing it. All of a sudden, there's a knock at our door one Saturday. And this person is delivering live animals, is stamped on the crate. And my dad is like, what? And they're like, these are the chinchillas and the incubators and all the wires and the lights and the feed. And, you owe us, whatever it was. I don't remember if it's

$175 or what it was. But at the time, you know, in 1970, it was a ton of money. And my dad's like, you can take these things right home back. You know, I'm not paying you for this stuff. Well, I'm standing there. You're missing the opportunity of a lifetime. We're going to be rich. You know, and of course, he's cracking up, but he's also like, you cannot be ordering stuff,

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And, you know, I was frustrated for a good couple of years because, okay, We're just going to stay broke. Don't chellos? He would not get with the program. And I'm like, sir, come on. Bent is the story of John J. Boziac's phenomenal life of crime. Inked from head to toe, with an addiction to strippers and fast Cadillacs,

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he vanished. Bozziak's stranger-than-fiction tale of ingenious scams and impossible escapes, of brazen run-ins with the law and secret desires to straighten out. and settle down, makes his story a true crime con game that will keep you guessing. Bent, how a homeless team became one of the cybercrime industry's most prolific counterfeiters. Available now on Amazon and Audible. You know, there's other things that I tried. I saw a truck and it said, pine straw for sale.

Our yard is eat up with pine straw. So if you're going to buy it, right? And then I went to my neighbors who were elderly, and I said, you know, can I rake your yard? They're like, sure. And I'm like, suckers, because they don't realize people pay for this. Well, again, my dad had to explain, honey, you're not going to make any money. I mean, you can rake every yard in this community, you know. So anyway, he's the reason I'm still broke.

I mean, that's just it. Choked. So we all have a little con artist. You know what I mean? Yeah. And I think we all, we all have good. We all have a little, maybe not so good, but people are mostly good. Ugh.

So, okay, so I don't know how we got on top of it. So when did you start? Okay. When did you, this is, we're 50 minutes into this one. Okay. There was 25 on the other one. How did you start? I always, you know, again, I read everything I could.

And when I was 18, the very first criminal justice gig, I guess, that I ever had, I was hired to be a store detective at a large department store called Riches. At 18? Yeah, because they wouldn't suspect me. It was great. I had a great time, learned a ton. And from there, I worked at the Greater E. Rite Crisis Center because they would actually allow me to volunteer there at 18, and I could actually interview victims. And I worked directly with a gentleman by the name of Detective Black. He was extraordinary to me.

He taught me how to interview. He taught me how to write a report. And there were oftentimes that I was able to get information from the victim that he was not able to. So that was just laying the groundwork for what was to come. And then as I worked through college, I had different internships. I had one with the FBI, one with the Secret Service. I just had a great time. And then my first real job was with the Crime Commission. And I just never looked back. And this year is my 40th year doing something in criminal justice.

Okay. Did you ever work for like the, who do you work for now? You said you're currently. I worked for a metropolitan Atlanta police department, and I'm there a crime scene investigator. Okay. How long have you worked there? I've been there eight years this week, actually. Okay. Do you ever work for the Sheriff's Department? I worked for the Fulton County Sheriff's Department for eight years in special ops.

I worked for the Crime Commission. I worked as a probation officer. I've done a lot of really interesting. I've had a really lucky career when I was with the crime commission I was assigned to the major case division and we had a prosecutor there that was just a spitfire and the first time I ever met the prosecutor was about 245 at the crime scene

and this little sports car comes flying up and this person jumps out and they're like, what do you got, what do you have? What can I do to help? And I'm like, what in the world is that? I mean, I had never seen anything like it. I had never seen at that time a prosecutor outside the courthouse. They always stayed in the ivory tower, as it were.

And that prosecutor turned out to be Nancy Grace. Oh, my God. So, you know, I've had a lot of luck. I mean, I was in charge of the Olympic Crisis Response Team, which nobody would have ever cared anything about, except we had a bomb. And then that matriculated into training with the State Department, And I got to train every single Olympic crisis response team from then on. So, you know, luck is good.

So Nancy Grace, I wrote a story about a guy named Frank Amadeo. Frank Amadeo is a, the short version is he's a rapid cycling bipolar with features of schizophrenia. He's a lawyer. And he was a tax attorney. in Atlanta when Nancy Grace was was the the, I guess the attorney, the estate attorney or she was just the assistant district attorney. Okay. Right. And so he ended up having a, a bout of depression for like a couple of weeks, like two, three weeks, like he couldn't get out of bed. And this would happen every few years to him. Sure. So he, so he was basically. basically the one running. He had two partners, but they were pretty much useless in this, this, um, it was a tax attorney, kind of like H&R block, but for bankruptcy. Okay. I keep saying taxed it. For, for bankruptcy. Sorry, he was a, he wasn't a tax attorney. He was a bankruptcy attorney.

Sorry. And they were kind of trying to do like a mill, right? They're just running them through. Well, anyway, he was the one who was basically doing most of the work. So when he disappears for two weeks, he was in the hospital for like a week. Then he wouldn't get out of bed at his house. So by the time he shows back up. This whole, everything's falling apart. Anyway, they ended up pilfering the account where people were paying money in to the account. He says, I don't know what's true and what's not true. He says his partners ended up taking the money. He ended up saying something like he ended up getting $30,000 of it, but didn't realize how they were paying. I might forget exactly what the story was. But in the end, the place closed.

There were a lot of unresolved bankruptcies. And Nancy Grace came in and investigated the entire thing and tried to get Frank indicted. Fry to indict him had held a couple of grand juries, but they wouldn't indict because I guess he wasn't really on the accounts and even, you know, so wasn't sure. So, but she was so upset about it. She went to the U.S. attorney. and gave him all the information. And the U.S. attorney was able to indict him. And so that's kind of, you know, that's my Nancy Grace story.

I'm sure you have hundreds way better than that. But she actually made an attempt to indict this guy. And then when she was so frustrated and irritated that she couldn't indict him, she's like, oh, well, I got you. And she went and gave it because, you know, the U.S. attorney, obviously the feds have a much more ability to on a lot of their, a lot of the federal laws. I had never heard that story.

I don't know him. It sounds sad all the way around. But I will tell you, she comes from a place being a victim of crime that if she sees victimization in any way, financial, physical, emotional, she doesn't tend to let loose of it. And I tell people a lot that,

If you had a child missing, would you want her own it? Right. And 100% of the time, people say yes, if it's their child. Because she's not going to turn loose. She's not going to stop arguing. She's not going to stop calling people out. And she's got such a heart. I mean, I know her, know her.

I just told you that's how we met. But, I mean, we have maintained our friendship. and I will tell you just one story. And I don't think she would care if I told this, but like back in the day, she took files home. So if you ever went to her house, she would have these files sometimes spread out. And we were there one night talking about a case, and she literally touched every single file and prayed over it. She prayed for the officer. She prayed for the judge.

She prayed for the victim. She prayed for herself. You know, please let me do the right thing. everybody do the right thing and let there be justice. And that's one of those things that if you don't, if you only know the TV persona, you sometimes think, man, she's just, you know, a bulldog. But then when you think about, you know, she was so close to being married and she was so happy and she was so young and she was innocent. I mean, you're talking about a girl from making Georgia, they went to college at Valdosta State, that had her whole world, not flipped

upside down, but ripped apart, that instead of just going home and not being able to get out of the bed, decided, okay, my fiance was murdered, who was a baseball star, and I was going to be an English teacher. Well, now I'm going to go to law school, and I'm going to make sure this doesn't happen to another person. Right. Well, everybody's hard on law enforcement, you know. Oh, sure. Until someone breaks in their house.

That's right. Or their attack. Where they need them. And then it's defund the police until my, you know, my neighborhood is overridden with crime. Yep. And then it's where the police, it's like, well, you were at that protest last month. What do you think they are?

Yeah. So, yeah. So, yeah, I can see her, I mean, I could see wanting that prosecutor after. And he was any, even Frank, we were, I wrote, I wrote a story on him and we were incarcerated together. And he was like, he's like, she had two grand jurors or two grand juries. Two. Yeah. She couldn't indict me.

Two. And he was like, she just wouldn't let it go. It was like, well. That's her. You got indicted. He's like, I didn't even know. I didn't know anything about it. Right.

But we're talking But you're in prison. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But anyway, yeah, he's a he was, he's an interesting character. Yeah, you'd have a field day with him. I mean, he's actually incarcerated.

And I wrote a story about him, by the way. It's called, it's insane. I actually wrote a book, but I wrote a synopsis and a book. I expanded the synopsis, you know, once I got out of, prison, but I wrote in a synopsis in prison. It's probably 12 or 1,300 words, maybe, maybe 1400 words. And it's on my website if you, if you ever want to read it. And if you don't I have an audio version. Anyway, he, since he was in his teens, he has believed that God is talking to him and he is preordained to be emperor of the world. Now, remember, he's got features

of schizophrenia, goes to college, gets a degree, very smart. Sure. It's a law degree, gets out, starts this, um, starts this, uh, bankruptcy thing,

a bankruptcy kind of firm that, uh, and it ends up, you know, failing after whatever, five, six years. He then becomes a venture capitalist.

He then gets indicted. He goes to, goes to a camp for like a year, gets out. He then gets out of that, it becomes a venture, Sorry, becomes a venture capitalist, puts together a massive, massive company. He starts raising money for his company, which is ultimately going to basically, you know, it's like specter.

He is expecting it to dominate, economically dominate the U.S. and then spread throughout all continents. And, you know, and he's in, listen, he also has a military wing. Like he's got his own private military. They've got contracts in, in Afghanistan. He's, it's, you know, it's, it's a massive operation. I've got pictures of him with Bush at the White House. And I don't mean like a photo off. I mean, like they're sitting in the Roosevelt room.

Like, you know, a group of people. He went, he would help sponsor a NATO summit. He, it's just a massive, massive undertaking this company. Ultimately, he ends up, he's doing most of this, by the way, by embezzling money by not paying federal income taxes, employment taxes, to the tune of $200 million. Wow. Eventually, the whole thing, the feds come in, the whole conspiracy behind it, he gets indicted, he goes to prison for 22 years. That's where I met him. So he's a fascinating guy.

but yeah it's it's it's uh oh listen and if you read the story it's insane like he would the things he was telling me and then of course i would order the freedom of information act and i'd order the transcripts and and i'd get the transcripts and the freedom of information act and you've got you've got you know fbi reports where they're talking about how he's trying to buy you know airplane he's trying to buy like um he's uh f16s and f15s he's negotiating a contract to buy these used, you know, they gut them. They take all the electronics out. You can still buy the planes. He's talking about

putting them in Cyprus. You know, he wants to buy, you know, 25 of them. He backed a coup in the Congo. There's a, there's a documentary about that. Yeah. Anyway, he's fascinating. But so back to you.

Can I ask you, do you, can you, do you have any cold cases that are interesting to you that you would that you could talk about absolutely i think one that i'll talk about right now is um melissa wolfenberger and the reason i'll talk to you about her is because we've been having a theme this whole conversation but melissa went missing and she was married and her mother could not get any police department to take a missing persons report because she's married she's

grown, and if she doesn't want to have contact with you, she doesn't have to have contact with you, and if she wants to disappear or run away, that's not illegal. But her mom kept saying something's not right. She wouldn't have just left her children. She wouldn't, you know, stop having contact with me. Like, even if she wanted to leave her husband, that's one thing, but she wouldn't abandon her family. So this goes on a while, and finally, she badges her own police department enough, or finally a detective says, fine, I will take a report that she's missing, but I can't investigate it. She didn't live in our jurisdiction. There's no sign of a crime at all, but I will take it for paper trail. Well, she went to Atlanta police and then said

the same thing. She's missing. And Atlanta said, okay, since they've taken a police report that she's missing, we'll do the same thing, but that's as far as we can go. We've been by the house, there's no sign of anything. They've moved away is what it looks like. Fast forward, a driver delivering for UPS sees a ripped garbage bag and a skull in the middle of the street. He stops. The skull is misidentified as a Caucasian male. So it sits on a shelf because it's not pertaining to Melissa. Right. Fast forward again, months later, that was April. The skull was found In June, four more trash bags were found, each containing an arm or a leg. Some dental records were done.

Comes back to be Melissa. Now, this has been going on for years and years. The person that has been helping me understand the crime, understand the players, understand what law enforcement could and could not do, and most importantly understand possibly the number one suspect is her father.

Her father I thought you were to say her husband. No, no, he's probably on the suspect list but the person that's helping me understand everything who's literally helping me on the case is her father who is the Flint River killer. So we've been communicating

via letter because he's in prison. So again, it's one of those things. Who understands a killer better than another killer? Who understands these principal players better than him? Who understands who's probably got a beef with him? Who wanted retribution? Or who had a background that was indicative of somebody that might at one point snap, possibly.

So again, everybody has a gift. Your story is helping people. hopefully my background can help people. Nancy Grace's background is helping people. Well, the Flint River Keller, his background prayerfully, is helping people. And in this particular instant, his own daughter. Wow. What, what, how insane is that that his own daughter ends up getting murdered?

Listen, Matt, it's the only case in history that I can find where a serial killer becomes a victim of crime, meaning somebody in his immediate family is murdered. Right. And then he reaches out to law enforcement for help. Because the detective that originally arrested him for his murders, he asked

when she was still missing, can you find her? He said, you caught me after 25 years. Can you find my daughter? So it's an incredible story. And it's one of those that I think will be in my career

it's going to be the only one like it. It's the only one in history like it. But again, sometimes people in prison have the information you need. Yeah. Yeah, what a great. If there was an actual resolution,

wouldn't that be, that would be just, what a phenomenally unique story, you know, bizarre, but just. Bizarre. Right. Like, you can't make it.

That's, that's a, great thing about true crime. Like, you know how many times I've been writing someone's story or interviewing them and you just look up and you go, what? Exactly. You couldn't even come up with it. Like, this sounds so insane. Yes. It's almost fate. Like it's almost Yeah. If I sat down and was watching some show and this was the premise, I'd be like, ah, come on, never going to happen. Never going to happen. Like with Robert Chablis, I was the only person in law enforcement he would fool with. When he would even go back to Alcatraz,

he didn't want to shake hands with the old guards. He would openly tell you, I don't have any use for anybody in law enforcement. We are not friends. I mean, it was literally in us versus them in his life. So I get that. But when you, again, you've got somebody that they chose the path they chose

for whatever reason. But now, you know, just like Nancy Grace, Nancy was on one path and it got flipped, you know, Carl was on one path and it got flipped. So at this point, you need the help of the very people you can't stand. You know, it's all good. And then maybe prayerfully, we can see each other a little different. It's funny, I was just saying how small the world is and how, you know, it's, I had,

I wrote a story about a guy who, best friend had he he had overdosed you know like everybody thought it was an overdose but it everybody didn't think it was over the police said it was an overdose he kept he and everybody else was like it's not an overdose this this doesn't make sense like they're like oh well then he killed himself they're like they didn't kill himself like you know and then a couple of a year or two later the guy wrote the story about his name's vitally joseph vitali he gets arrested and he's in in the U.S. Marshall's holdover waiting to be sentenced. And he befriends or a guy kind of starts talking to him befriends him. And that guy ends up, he's like, oh, what do you do? Oh, he's,

I'm a stockbroker. I raise venture capital and do this. Oh, okay. They have a little conversation. He's like, oh, I knew a stockbroker. Oh, you did? He's like, oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you know. And he starts telling him about how they kind of befriended him. And we're hanging out and we're partying and doing drugs because a lot of people this is in in a palm beach palm beach is notorious for all these it listen half the guys in palm beach are are con artists so he's down there and and you know they're in in that industry a lot of drugs a lot of you know so the guy ends up talking about and he said and i start to realize that he's talking about my buddy and he you know so i kind of keep saying oh yeah yeah you know oh do you know so and so yeah yeah so we have a

whole conversation the guy ends up telling him yeah that guy owed this girl that I used to mess with a lot of money he said I ended up having to do him in and he's like he's like really like he doesn't know he knows him he never said I know that guy wow and he ends up saying that he and he goes how did you do it he said I gave him a hot shot and he was like when he told him he said I didn't know what that was he's like a hot shot he's like yeah yeah you know I such and such and you know I did this he's like then we went through the house we got like 30 grand And we, now keep in mind, too, his girlfriend, or his fiancé, when they found the body, she, of course, immediately said it's, you understand he was murdered. The house was robbed.

We're missing $30,000 in cash. We're missing, and she listed all of these items. Wow. And the problem was is he was doing drugs. He did die of a drug overdose. So the police looked at twice. And they said, you know, look, I get it. But the guy's not talking.

you know he by the way he was back in for robbing banks he'd gotten out of prison like we'd got out of prison in the halfway house started robbing banks got picked up again in the meantime he kills this guy

gets picked up again and he's waiting sentencing what happens to be the guy's best friend or good friend if you can have a best friend when you're in your 30 yeah so I mean what a small like those that's one of those things

that you just you couldn't that's right those coincidences that happen and you go how that's right how odd is that what a small world it is a small world and the guy would say something of course he's saying something because he's thinking what the chance of this guy yeah nobody's just some guy in prison we're both waiting like he doesn't know enough he said but I did know I knew all the people that he knew I knew who it was he has even

mentioned the name of his subdivision specifically told him the name of the subdivision I mean like he was naming off all of these things anyway crazy yeah it's uh it's it's it's an odd odd world so yeah i love true crime it's those types of things that you go that's that's bizarre there's so many bizarre things boy that that that story you that's amazing the um that's got to be a resolution you need to got to figure that one i'm hoping we're hoping i'll text you when i have an update all right for sure and you have a podcast right? I do. It's called Zone 7. What do you talk about on the podcast?

Cold cases that we've worked. And Zone 7 came about because in the Atlanta Police Department, there's six police zones. So back in the day before cell phones, if we wanted to all meet afterwards, you just couldn't go over the radio and say, hey, everybody, we're going to meet at the bar tonight. So we would say, let's 5'9 at Zone 7 after shift. So that way it would be acceptable. And then Zone 7 kind of became this group of people that you trust, that have your back, that are not going to, you know, do harm to you by talking about you or setting you up or any of that kind of stuff. The people you can literally go to, you know, not unlike a criminal organization, you know, you want those people that are going to tell you the truth that are going to protect you, that are going to, you know, not talk crap about you when you're not in the room, the people that only want to help you.

whether it's on a case or, you know, further your career or whatever. So your zone seven is, you know, pretty small, but it's a powerful group. So that's why I call it zone seven, because the people that I have, my guest, are people that are in my zone seven. Okay. So how many people are, is it just, are you the host or are there other people involved? I'm the host, and I bring people in because they have something to do with the case we're talking about. They either have an expertise in whatever it is or they helped me.

or we search the scene together. There's some reason they're there. And that'll come out during the, you know, interview. Okay. How often do you post? Like, how long have you been doing it? I've only been doing it six months yesterday. And I post on Wednesdays once a week.

Okay. And is it on YouTube? No. It's just, you know, eye hard and Spotify, that sort of thing. You got to put it on YouTube. You got to get the stream yard thing. You've got to learn how to do that. I figure it out.

I couldn't use the telephone when I got out. Clear. Roger then. There was no iPhone. There were no iPhones when I went to prison. When I went to prison, YouTube had been out for like a year. I'd never been on it that I know of that I could recall. Facebook had been out for like a year.

I was on the run. remember my girlfriend said, hey, do you want to get a Facebook page or this thing, Facebook? People are moving from MySpace to Facebook. And I was like, I don't think that's a good idea. I'm wanted. It's probably not a good idea. I don't know. Feel bad.

I'm not, you know, I'm not an expert on being wanted, but it feels like a bad idea. It does feel like a bad idea. Yeah. I'm, you know, I'm not an expert. But so, and then YouTube had, you know, like it had just come out. Like, you weren't readily watching it. You know, people weren't seeing. Like, I don't ever recall.

knowing what it was, but I do know when I looked back on it, like, oh, no, it was out. But I don't ever recall really hearing about it until I was years into prison. And then, and then podcast wasn't a thing, because that's a new word. That wasn't even invented into like, 2008 or 9 or 10 or something. It's like they put two words together. And then I would meet guys. iPhones didn't come out till like 2009. So I was already locked up like three years. I remember there was a guy one time telling me he, because he was there for like almost like a half a million to a million dollars

in an iPhone crimes. He would, he would get a corporation, have people go in and get corporate accounts. Like they'd give them like nine iPhones on corporate accounts. They didn't have to have a, they didn't run the credit, nothing was just corporation.

And so they'd get the phone, didn't go on there, on their credit or anything. So they'd give them the phone for nothing. So they get like nine. And he'd send people in over and over. And then he'd sell the phone. He'd pull out the SIM cards or whatever.

And then he'd sell the phones overseas. They'd give them like $400 for like $1,000 or $500 for $1,000. So he did this to the tune of like $500,000 or $600,000 or something. And so he was trying to explain it to me. And I was like, right, right, right. He's like, you know how in the, he kept saying, well, you know how on the iPhone this? You know how on the iPhone? I said, and after about five minutes of it, I said, listen, listen,

your crime didn't exist when I got locked up. Wow. I'd been locked up at that point, like 10 years. Yes. And he was like, oh, wow, bro. How long you've been in the year? It was like, of course, he's a kid. He's like in his late 20s.

So he's like, you know, haven't they always existed? Like, no. No. Yeah, that's crazy. But yeah, it's, uh, yeah, yeah. So yeah, there was a, so if I can figure out how. phones work and iPhones and YouTube and all that. Come on.

Roger that. You really have. I'm on it today. You know, that's the great. I love the guys who are like, you know, you know, well, I'm not really a techie person. Stop it. Stop. I'm doing it today. I will start learning. Yeah, I was amazing. YouTube. You can look anything up. I can say anything to YouTube. And if somebody's made a video,

there's 1500 videos on any. that I ask it. Yep. I learned how to edit and do everything on, on YouTube. No, you're right. I can read a manual. I just said, you know, Final Cut Pro, how do you stack videos? And there's like 1,500 of them.

Yes. I'm like, wow. Well, all right. I know you've spent way more time than you expect it to spend. I've enjoyed every second of it, man. Absolutely. And listen, when you come to Atlanta next week, call me. I would love for you to come by.

and I'll show you the police station, give you a ride. We'll have to put it. What's funny, I'd be nice to ride in the front of the police car. Absolutely. You know, it's funny as like when you first said Atlanta, I thought, my first thought was I stole $400,000 in Atlanta. That was the first place when the FBI showed at my office,

the first place I went to in Alpharetta, Georgia. Alpharetta. Alpharetta. I rented somebody's house that was worth about $200,000. I went down to Fulton County, satisfied the two loans he had on his house, made a fake ID in his name. Name was Michael Shanahan. And then I called three hard money lenders, three or four?

There's three. Three hard money lenders had him come out to the house and borrowed all three mortgages at the same time, and borrowed like roughly $400,000, deposited the money into a bunch of bank, pulled the money out and cashed and then took off. And then the Secret Service showed up, you know, a few months, maybe a month or so later. And yeah, yeah. Do you remember, well, she was a U.S. attorney. Gail McKenzie?

I don't know, Gail. No. Yeah, she was in the U.S. attorney. But the Secret Service, the officer on my case was Andrea Peacock. I know Andrew Peacock. she was all very nice oh yeah she's very nice she used to be with the cobb county d's office when i was there oh okay yeah yeah she um she was interviewed by american greed when they did an episode yeah very polite oh yeah she's nice she's fine you know everybody's always

talks about the fbi i was like the fbi they were all mean they were all kind of kind of no not really there was just one fbi she was very nice good but yeah uh but the there's Secret Service, they were very polite, very professional, you know, not mean-spirited. I've met some mean-spirited people. Yeah. My involvement with the Secret Service has always been the same, very professional, very nice. You know, they understand exactly what they're there to do and, you know, it's all good. There's no arrogance.

I've worked with other agencies, you know, it can be a little, you know. I know. Because even in my world, I'm not a fed. Yeah, well, you know. Just saying, you know, because you're not a fed, you know, sometimes you're treated differently because you're a little, you know, bitty city. But, you know, whatever we're doing still got you here. So you're welcome. You know.

But I appreciate this. This has been fabulous. Wonderful. Okay. Yeah, definitely. I'm actually, I think I'm going to Atlanta again in August also because there's a cyber crime convention. there. Okay. And they're going to have a bunch of people and so I'm

supposed to go to that too. Yeah. Excellent. Well, I'm right here if you need something. You know, again, I would love for you to come by and let's hang out. I appreciate you guys watching. Do me a favor. Hit the subscribe button in the bell so you get notified of videos just like this. Check out the description box for Zone 7. Matt goes over cold cases with other

detectives and I really appreciate you guys watching. Leave me a comment in the comment section. And And thanks for checking out the podcast. See you.