Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - What a Historian Says About Government Secrecy and Hidden History

Episode Date: March 25, 2026

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Hey, I'm Seth Shackner. Check out my new show, Breaking Down the Biz. Every week, I sit down with people who actually make movies, music, and media happen. Executives from Sony, Universal, Apple, NBC. Together, we cut through industry jargon and hype to show you how the business is built. What's key to making everything come together and why it matters to you. From iTunes impact on the music industry to the advent of AI, from the Taylor Swift ticket sales fiasco, to Bad Bunny's Meteoric rise, We break down the stories, the numbers, and the negotiations that shape the industry. I've been in the trenches of the entertainment industry for several decades with leadership roles at companies like Sony, Paramount, and Jive Records. My guests and I are going to provide the same thoughtful, concise insights that I'm trusted to bring on TV networks like CNN and NBC surrounding the industry and its culture-defining

moments. We'll touch on the business of music, filmmaking, and streaming, and the emerging technology of our time. If you've ever wondered what really happens behind the scenes of the entertainment business, this is a bite-sized insider guide. Subscribe now on your favorite podcast platform or watch us on YouTube so you never miss a beat. Let's make sense of this industry together. This guy's house was stripped clean. He has no social media identity.

There's nothing for you to look at. He is a blank slate of a human being. The Manchurian community was placed there for that purpose to be triggered. Frankly, with the JFK files, there is one specific thing I want to know, which is a lot of the people who are in the territory were brought there specifically to be there to vote. The government wouldn't manipulate an election. In two years from now, if this gains traction, it's going to be hard for us to get rid of this. You've got these other assassinations and attempts that have gone on all over history. And if you question any of them, you're immediately thrown into sort of this conspiracy theorist category. But now I think more than ever, it's because, becoming sort of mainstream because when people are looking at this kid who just went on this slanted roof and shot at the president and clips his ear almost kills the guy by like a couple inches.

We're talking about just a little bit of space. He hadn't turned his head. Yeah. A bit different story. And what's insane about that is this guy's house was stripped clean. He has no social media identity. He has nothing. There's nothing for you to look at.

He is a blank slate of a human being. that to me is the biggest precursor for everybody on the outside that all these red flags start popping up and I think specifically now the fact that more people today look at that situation and go well something weird's going on here that shows that we've sort of moved forward in time a bit where people are realizing that JFK stuff's kind of weird RFK similar situation where you with JFK I think obviously the most famous of them but I don't think think there's a person I talk to these days who think that there wasn't some form of government involvement or some cover-up aspect to the Kennedy stuff similar with with Robert F. Kennedy the same situation you've got seerhan searhan being the supposed killer but then you've got

recordings of multiple gunshots being heard in the background you can break down the audio and show that there's weird stuff there thinking colby doesn't know who seirhan now that now that you said that is does that what happened like didn't he do a press conference or something they go in the back room in the kitchen or something no so seerhan seerhan seerhan was walking through the back kitchen yes and and the only reason i know that is because of this podcast that we had with remember that guy who did the whole jfk yeah so but like seerhan seerhan seahs a perfect example like when you look into that it's like he pushes they push the whole manchurian candidate thing a manchurian candidate is well oh my god i talk about mk ultra lots i know that

Manchering Canada is someone who's been brainwashed. And so they'd seem like a normal citizen until you trigger them. And then they commit an assassination. So you've got somebody who's in the White House, who's been working for 20 years, has done all the right things. But really, at some point, they were pulled out, kidnapped, brainwashed. Maybe they were stuck back into this situation 20 years ago. Maybe it was halfway through whatever.

At some point, they were brainwashed and allowed to continue. And for 10 years or so, they've worked their way through the system. And when they get in the position you wanted them in, then they trigger them. And that person commits some kind of an act. They commit, sorry, not commit. They end up committing an assassination. And everybody says, I don't understand. This guy's a war veteran.

He's done everything right. He was elected. This is insane. Like this is something must have snapped. No, no. He was a manuring candidate. He was placed there for that purpose to be triggered. A book by Tom O'Neill called Chaos is an excellent read.

Tom O'Neill wrote that book about the Manson. Whenever you use the internet on your phone, computer, or tablet, your device sends out a lot of information. And that information can be stolen. A VPN or a virtual private network is an app that hides your IP address and protects your internet connection. It does this by creating a tunnel for your data. So no one can see what you're doing online or steal your personal information. A VPN is like a locked safe for your personal data that only you have the key to. Whenever you connect to the internet on a public Wi-Fi network at an airport, coffee shop, or even your own home, your data is at risk of being stolen.

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All you've got to do is click the link in the description box. Manson was connected to acid boom and MK Ultra and all that stuff. So you're an MK Ultra is? MK Ultra was a program by the CIA where they were dosing people with tons of LSD in order to do what? Well, so Operation Midnight Climax was the one where they were doping people

using hookers. And the reason they were doing that was to study the information that could be brought forth from an individual who was given LSD. Right. So like could Russians come in, grab somebody, dose them with LSD and get them to give up secrets or that sort of thing? It was in the middle of that

program that it shifted from that to could we give somebody acid and then suggest that they do things and that is where some weirdness goes on that's where the manchair and candidate stuff comes in there's also a thing called mk naomi which i've done a video on that happened at the same time as mk ultra they were running perpendicular with each other mk naomi was a weapons program in which they were taking biological weapons to try to form new weapons if you've You may have heard of the heart attack gun. This is something that was brought up by a bunch of media people back in the day. But during the church committees, the church hearings, the government brings up this gun.

It looks like a 1911-45, and they're talking about how this thing shoots these darts that are imperceivable to the person hit by them. What's on that dart is a thing called selfish toxin. And that toxin was actually gotten from Alaska. They bought a bunch of rotten clams from Alaska, turned it into this toxin. and that induces cardiac arrest or heart attack in a person instantly. Like it's instant. So you can shoot somebody with a gun and they have a heart attack. And they don't even know they've been shot by it.

We're talking about it. When I say, we're talking about a needle that is that short, completely imperceivable. It looks like a little like hair. Like a hair were shot in ahead of range of like 100 meters. William Colby, I think, was the director at the time. They brought him in and had to speak to him about it. and it was a crazy thing for people to see back in the day. Now in the future, no one really talks about in Kmi.

But what that program was and what makes it kind of crazy is they were using MK Ultra to sort of make these brainwashed individuals. If you actually look at it on a paper, what was going on is those people would have been using the weapons that came from M.K. Naomi. So the idea was actually, well, we're going to make these soldiers with this group and then arm them with this group. Right. It's crazy.

Like absolute bonkers. I mean, it's something out of a science fiction movie. But when you read through the documents, it's like, no, this happened. You did this. Like, you can't make this up. So they're trying to get so that way they can go in and grab somebody who's maybe working with whatever. Well, I guess back then it would have been, would have been, would have been, oh gosh, I can see. Yeah.

Brush. Brezhnav. Yeah. Yeah. So they could have. So some, you grab some, some Soviet who works in the Kremlin. Right. close to him, you grab it, you have a hooker go grab him, and then they brainwash him,

and then they give him this weapon, and then the next two weeks later, six months later, when he's next to Brezhnev, he shoots him with this weapon. I'm forgetting the name, but there is actually an individual who was, I mean, the government had to pay the family because they were found to have been implicated in the killing of the guy, but there, I believe is Frank Olson or Frank something, Frank something. He was a government official who jumped from a window. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And they said, oh, it was a suicide.

They dosed this guy with LSD and didn't tell him. He was no clue. He thinks he's going crazy. And the family ended up suing the government, and they won in court, and the government had to admit publicly, hey, we dose this guy full of LSD, and he jumped off a damn window. He's kind of hard to hide that. And they don't say...

Was he CIA? I think he was. I know he was in an agency. It might have been FBI, but I know he, I think it would have been CIA or I guess OSS or whatever. They call it back then beforehand. I think it was CIA by then. Let's see. At a meeting in rural Maryland, he was currently dosed with LSD by his colleague, Sydney, something.

Sidney Gottlie. Yeah, head of the CIA, M.KU Ultra program. Gottlieb is the grandfather of all of that. M.K. Ultra everything. Gottlieb was a real, real nasty individual. Employee of the United States Army Biological. warfare laboratories, whatever that is. Fort Dietrich. That's where a lot of that stuff went on. That's where M.K. Naomi went on. That's where they were storing that selfish toxin was in Fort Detrick. They

were all keeping it on ice there. And then they found it during the church committee, they found it in a storage room, like just in a storage unit. Here's this vial of selfish toxin that was enough to kill like 150,000 Americans. Did you see that before we continue? Did you see Joe Rogan and Trump that Joe Rogan asked him if he's going to release the JFK files. Do you think that'll happen? Do you think anything will come from that? Yeah. I think...

Because they released some of them. Yeah. I think if... And what is the JFK file? Just probably all the investigation, all the information that they have. Like the Warren report, which was generated by the Warren Committee after Oswald, well, after JFK was assassinated, Oswald was killed. They put together this committee that was...

extreme like non-biased. I mean, it was extremely biased. Like all the players on the committee were very biased. They were all kind of involved in some way. So they basically say, end up saying like, yeah, Oswald killed them. Like, that's just the way it is. But there were all these massive, had been a massive amount of investigation done that. So you come up with this, this, this, this, this, you render this verdict and this little kind of here's what happened. And they, they break it down. So it sounds plausible. And then they just kill. it. And then they say, okay, all the research that went into this, everything, all the investigations, all the backdoor stuff, every single interview, everything has, is now classified. And they classified

it for something like, fucking how many years, 50 or 75 or 100 years, some outrageous number. And that way, it's like everybody that's involved in this that could be implicated will be dead. Yeah. So none of this will come back on us. The biggest implication that I think could come forward, the only one that I think people would really care about at this point, because, frankly, with the JFK files, I don't think you're going to find much in those files that are actually going to tell you what really happened. There is one specific thing I want to know, which is where was George W. Bush Sr. at the time of the assassination. And there's a bunch of reasons that I would like to know that question. The reality is he was asked this already, and he said he doesn't remember.

So. Well, you think he would have been in Dallas? Yes. either. I think if you're, he was ahead of the CIA at the time, right? Yes. So he was,

yeah, yeah, right? I know that. Yeah. So he's head to the CIA at the time. But to me, if I had this and this going on, I wouldn't be in where fucking near there.

Like, there's no reason for me to be. You're going to be, you send these guys off and be like. The more of the thing is, it's on paper. We know that he was in Dallas during the time. Because we have records of that.

But then when he was asked, why were you in Dallas? He goes, well, I don't remember being in Dallas on that day. Okay. And it's like, well,

really answer that way you have to remember where you were like the day the president got shot that seems like something you'd kind of sort of like the 9-11 thing where everybody knows where they were or even trump i can tell you where i was so can i 9-11 trump there's all kinds of those types of events immediately oh i was walking out of the hallway and i heard the tv and yeah exactly i mean i literally like called my father shortly after it happened i was like you see what just happened so there there's there's that and i think that's the question i have for those documents like that might actually show us like was he interviewed by somebody and that would be in those documents of what he said during the interviews stuff like that i mean so if those so you're assuming that all of the

files have been scrubbed of the actual events so i think if they were scrubbed properly or to such a degree that you wouldn't really know the truth then there would be no reason to to put to to seal them i think that in that in those documents you you will know, hey, because a lot of these were independent body investigation. Right. You know what I'm saying? Yes. So I think that there's a possibility that they will have enough documents to say, hey,

holy shit, there was a team that was released or that was sent there to assassinate. So there's enough to put it together. It's like, look, Oswald didn't do this. This guy wasn't a great shot. So we're just speaking a moment ago about Sidney Gottlie, the M.K. Ultra stuff, right? Right. He was the doctor to multiple of the people who end up connected to the assassination. And that guy, I mean, for the, his name is escaping me, the individual who shot Oswald, Jack Ruby. Oh, Jack Ruby. Jack Ruby, his doctor and physician, when he was in jail at the time, was that gentleman, Sidney Gottlie. So these are some of the things that you end up running into when you start looking at Kennedy stuff. Like, I, legitimately believe there was a conspiracy involved there because when you look at all the information, it's like all of the, it's incestuous, like all of the people involved that would have been involved in his killing are all the same people who are sort of playing cover up after the fact, which I think makes stuff kind of obvious. And a lot of the people who I'm talking about like Sidney Gottlieb and those individuals are people we can look at open records. We don't even have to guess. This guy was evil. Like he was dosing people with LSD without their knowledge. He was. implicated in a bunch of killings and assassinations.

The, wasn't the, so, and I saw stuff on this, but there's so much bullshit out there. Wasn't the Unabomber? When WestJat first took flight in 1996, the vibes were a bit different. People thought denim on denim was peak fashion. Inline skates were everywhere, and two out of three women rocked, the Rachel. While those things stayed in the 90s, one thing that hasn't is that fuzzy feeling you get when WestJet welcomes you on board. Here's to West Jetting since 96. Travel back in time.

with us and actually travel with us at westjet.com slash 30 years. A part, wasn't he dose with LSD? Yes. Or, and like, it went through like horrible, horrible interrogations and almost. I'm forgetting the college. It was either Stanford experiments or the, it's something experiments, was the college he went to had a private program with the feds where they were dosing people with LSD. and the program he was specifically in,

they would lock people in and make them think they were in prison. They gave certain students the ability to have control of the other students. Oh, yeah, yeah. It's not just him that went through this. Another individual who people will know as Popeye Warner went through that as well. People probably don't know that name. Remember a few years ago an RV was parked next to an AT&T building and blown up while it was playing? Was it in Nashville?

I think it was Nashville. Yeah. Yeah, we talked to somebody who's a 911 operator. Okay. Yeah. So Popeye Warner, the guy who actually blew that RV up, was friends with the Unabomber, went to the same school, and was also in that same LSD program. Was that MIT? Did he go to MIT?

Can you look up where the Unabomber went to college? Yeah, this is not something that looked at. My God, Colby. When I was in history, when I was in history, class. My history teacher, like, that was my teacher for multiple years throughout high school and probably a little bit of middle school. This is, he ate stuff up and I just remember sitting in the class, never knowing I'd be here thinking I will never need to know this information. The Unabomber was named Ted Kaczynski and he was brilliant. He was a brilliant student.

Went to, I believe, MIT you're about to tell us. Yeah, Michigan and Harvard. Oh, Michigan and Harvard. That's where you have the experience. So he goes to Harvard and super, very, very brilliant, right? But he also goes through these experiments. And these experiments are horrific. Like some of them, they pull you aside. They try and get you to, or they basically almost torture him, mentally torture him.

And they're dosing him with LSD. Now, at some point, he graduates, Harvard. he decides, and by the way, his thesis paper was basically that technology was destroying society. And so his thing, I forget the name of these guys who basically think we should ditch all technology and go back to the beginning where there's no electricity. Like none of these things, we don't need any of these things. Like we need to go back and live at one with nature. Something like that. Luddites is sort of the old term for them. They were... What are they? Luddites.

Luddites. That used to be the old term they'd use. So anyway, he ends up saving like, and I probably have the dollar amount wrong, but it's like $9,000 or something. And he buys a couple of acres in the middle of nowhere. Yeah. Really in the middle of nowhere. Yeah. No access.

Like you're hiking there, what kind of stuff. And he ends up building the shed. And he lives in this little tiny shed. And I mean a shed. It's like it's not a big. Smaller than the house I grew up in. Yeah, yeah, tiny. So he builds it.

He's living off of some kind of stifing. He's whatever, catching rabbits and eating, whatever. And so what he does is, but he's decided that he wants to, he wants to fight against technology. And so in his mind, one of them is, one of the technologies is transportation, which is the planes. And he builds a bomb, and he mails it to head, one of the heads of one of these companies like United Airlines or Delta, whatever it was.

And I think it might have been a few of them within the United. Anyway, a few of them went different places because that's where we kind of got the Unabomber, right? United. So he's mails in there and they're literally made of like wood and twigs. And he didn't have much. Now there are some mechanical pieces that are involved for the electrical charges, which he gets out of one of his neighbor's vehicle. The neighbor has a couple of vehicles on the lot that are completely abandoned.

And he, so the neighbor actually sees him, catches him like pulling out pieces. And he explained to me, he didn't mind if he gutted it a little bit or whatever. I think that he uses some of the pieces, the wires, builds a bomb. It blows up. It doesn't really kill anybody, but it maims a few people. Well, he gets better. He builds another bomb. That one actually, I think, kills somebody.

Yeah, yeah. So he does end up killing several people, not. hundreds or anything, but he kills like five people or 10 or something like that, right? Somewhere in that ballpark. Yeah, it's not that, not that that's not a lot. But so he ends up being known as a Unabomber and he's just hiking into town and maybe taking a bus or something. I don't know how he's getting into these different places. Then he's mailing these packages and they blow up periodically. Well, at one point he reaches out to a newspaper and he's writing the newspaper that he's the person

and he's telling the newspaper that he wants them to print his, they call it a manifesto, right? So, and it's, it's, it's just goes on and all. Like it's just long, long-winded how horrible technology is. And we knew the industrial revolution and its consequences. Yes. And we ended to go back to our roots and all of these other things, right?

So he, he, he, to the newspaper, somehow or another they're communicating. I forget how by some kind of ads or something. and they decide to run it. I don't think they were initially going to. They contacted the FBI. FBI is basically kind of like run it. Let's see what happened. Like we've got nothing on this guy.

We don't know who the fuck this is. Like we had no leads. They run it thinking maybe somebody will know who this guy is. So they run it and guess what? His brother reads a version of it and goes, my brother rant like this is my brother's ranting and he uses certain words literal phrases he would use that were identical to other writings he had made in the past right and his brothers read his rants many times this is clearly something my brother would write i think his brother was a professor actually right yeah and his brother goes and they actually talks to his wife and it's like what do i do

like this is my brother and his wife's basically like your brother's killing people right like i get you not wanting to turn your brother, but it's not, this isn't right. Like, what, you've got to do something. And so he contacts the FBI and he explains, look, this is, this is where he lives. This is who he is. And they go in and they arrest him and they literally pick up the cabin and they, like, fly it out of it. It's at the CIA Museum to this day. Oh, is it?

Yeah, you can go see the cabin. It's all, like, hermetically sealed and stuff. But, yeah, it's there. At least it was it to, I think, FBI or CIA, I think. I think, a museum. I think he just died recently. Yes, yeah, he did. His whole story is wild because of the connections he had, obviously,

to the stuff he did in college and things, and it makes you wonder, like, again, we were talking about MK.K. Ultra and M. Knomi and all that stuff. It's like, okay, well, is he the result of that? Yeah, that's what I'm saying. If he was what I'm saying, like. Listen, I love the scene. I know you'll have seen it.

Did you ever see Goodwill Hunting? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love the scene where he's the one professor saying, this kid is brilliant and he's amazing and he's this and he and he could be anything and this and he's like who else he's like and his fear is that no one will ever know who he is and he said and then he ends up saying really he said let me tell you somebody else who was brilliant and amazing and he did they starts naming off all of all of um kaczynski's accolades there's a great documentary called the net it was made by a german gentleman it's it's a lot of it's translated but he talks to people who

were targets of his. I mean, he goes down like a real rabbit hole. Like he talks to people who were like professors at the time when Kaczynski was sitting out the bombs and things and people who were working with him professionally at a point and stuff. And sort of paints this picture that not only was the acid thing of role in that, but also that if you read a lot of what Kaczynski was talking about, it wasn't that he was necessarily against technology as much as he was really against the tying of humans to technology. And a lot of the old... Imagine what he thinks of Elon Musk.

Well, so this gets into it. So he believed that basically the eugenicist of his era were attempting to create cyborgs of the sense, people who were genetically enhanced by computers and robots. And he was kind of spot on. Historically, like that's exactly what's happening. Elon Musk has come around and said, hey, here's this little chip you can put in your head.

It's like, hey, that was the thing he was talking about back in the day. So it's strange in that concept. I mean, he was smart enough to sort of know the future in a way. No, listen, how many things that people thought about that then do you think is nuts? Oh, go ahead. And then 30 years later, you're like, holy shit. Like, that's insane. Listen, someday they'll be borgs.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Have you seen the Elon robots? The, like, white ones that have the Tesla. Yeah. Tesla bots. Yeah, Tesla bots.

Here's what's funny about this, Boziac and I talk about this all the time, is that, like right now, it's, it, they're almost, they're almost silly,

right? They can do stuff, but they, like, listen, bro, this thing isn't cleaning my whole house. And it's current condition.

It's not cleaning my house. It's not washing my car. It's not mowing the yard. Right. It's not that, but it's like, to me, it's like AI.

It was theorized and, and played, with 10 years ago, but now I can go on chat GPT and I can have conversations that are more phenomenal and amazing than I can with anybody else. So 10 years from now, those robots will be, will walk in and you say, hey, can you do so yeah, yeah, no, I got it, I got it. I got no talking about it. And they'll sit down and they'll and I don't even need Colby. And they'll sit down and they'll do the whole thing. And it's like, of course, the real fear is when I say that Boziac, which is a friend of mine, he's like, well,

the real thing is, is that before that was going to happen, what? Like, they won't need you. Yeah. Like, they already have fucking notes. That they'll just scan you and listen to all your stuff and say, yeah, we got his personality down. Exactly. Run with them. Yeah.

And they don't even need you or Colby. Well, I mean, I think the step after the step after sort of creating AI life forms, that kind of thing would be like, okay, well, can we create organic matter? And then if you can combine those two things, and you can kind of create a human. Yeah, yeah. Like, that's what we're going to get into the territory of, like, you see the kind of concepts of pod people and cloning and stuff. And that is kind of what it would be like. I mean, you're going to have sort of this robot interface and then you have this physical interface. And if you can bring those two things together, you can kind of just create whatever you want.

I love watching. And I don't know the name of the program, but it's about like going to other planets. And one of them, they have like a timeline of what it would, what Mars would be. It's like a 500 year timeline or something. I forget how many years it is. It's from landing and what happens. It goes on. And at some point, they're doing genetics on Mars,

and they start creating creatures that can live on the Martian atmosphere, and they actually create Martians because they're conceptualized there, they're bred there, or created there, and released there. And they basically can create their own animals or pets and life forms, on the and that they could live on Mars and next thing it's like okay these are the aliens these are just made them they're there they're there and they're living here well with all the uap UFO stuff now it's interesting because everybody talks about it from the context of like well these are aliens coming from another planet and I always go well it it's just as much an argument they can be from

a different time or a different universe or any of these other arguments that come into play and did you see the thing in Congress where I don't even know listen I don't even know this is true because this is recently Was this the David Grush or the... Look, I don't even know. This is a TikTok, so let me say that off the bat. Okay, this is a three-minute TikTok I watched. Boy, it looked real.

And it's these guys that were testifying in front of Congress, and they were essentially saying, and one of them, they said, was from the Navy. And they were basically saying that they believed that these were aliens that are not from here, or, and had probably, but have probably been here for a long time, and that they actually have a complete civilization underneath the ocean.

Right. And that predominantly they see them out in the oceans and that mostly they believe that they're living under the ocean. They may have been here for a long, long time and that they're not bothering us. So let's just keep moving on about our lives and there's none of our business and they don't bother us. Well, the Air Force videos and stuff like that, I know Grush has talked about that on the Senate floor, and that was the Tic Tac videos. And when you watch those videos... You know, I had to apologize to a guy named Chris Marrera, who I mocked merciless. What he used to talk about aliens and I had to apologize

And he's like I told you I'm sure there were a lot of people Oh my god Because in my in growing up in like the in the 80s You mocked anybody that believed in UFOs You're a fool and then they've got videos on them Yeah it's gotten crazy now because of my grandmother's same way I mean she's always said because she studied all this stuff that historically

History and religion were her sort of strong suits and so she's always been like yeah aliens probably exist because you've got all these records from thousands of years ago of them talking about things coming from the sky that don't make sense it's not like my always answer to people who's always been it's not like this is new you go back two thousand years ago you've got people talking about strange stuff coming from the sky year forward now in 2025 we've got people talking about strange stuff coming from the sky so it's sort of a similar situation and the ocean i think plays a big role in it because we spend all this time looking up in the space and we spend all this time looking up in the space and and doing all that research, and we do very little research on the actual water that's all around us and what's in it. We're finding new species all the time underwater at deep depths that we don't really ever go to. So I think there's definitely a point to be made that that's probably where anything that we're seeing is coming from is from right here.

We're not. But yeah, Grush is the one who in that Senate meeting. He's talked about the fact that there's a big possibility that these are not aliens in the sense of multiple planets and interplanetary travel, but aliens in the sense that they literally could just be other humans that are coming from either another dimension or another time. If you think about it from the concept of like people talk about time travel, right? Theoretically, if 100 years from now, somebody invented a form of time travel, right? They invented, let's say, a white little tick-tack-shaped craft that went so fast they could

break through dimensional barriers or they could travel back in time. Fine. Let's say that's factual. That can happen. Wouldn't it make sense that the people that were seeing flying around in the tic-tacks, the reason why you can't really capture them, don't really have an actual craft or something you can look at, is because they're just us. They know how to get away from us. They're just basically flying through different areas of timelines and things like that. You would have rules, too. It would kind of be like the Star Trek, first you know what I'm saying like

right was it the prime directive yeah you can't interact with people we can't sway these people first of all it's detrimental it could be detrimental to us in the future we can't go back in time exactly right change something I might be killing myself yeah that's the whole was a grandfather paradox or what have you but I think the I think something is weird there when you look at what's happening it certainly makes sense Alaska as it's a whole fair share of alien stuff and most famously was Japan flight, I think it's 1772 or something, but the flight is, it was in 1982, Japanese flight going through Anchorage,

it's claimed they had a craft that looked like a rectangle with a bunch of burners on it, like come up behind the plane and hover above them and stuff, and the captain of the plane gave a sketch of it and reported all this stuff, and it became sort of a big story. but in general like UFO stuff over there it's like you can walk into any town in Alaska and bring up UFOs and there's going to be somebody there who has a story about seeing something weird over there. I don't know. I've seen stuff that I definitely think is odd, stars and I'm not used to seeing stuff like that in the sky, but nothing UAP that I would qualify as that. But I've met plenty of people who I trust and are people I know pretty well who are like, yeah, I saw like lights floating above my flying. lying back and forth and making weird movements and stuff.

And then you watch the videos of the TikTok stuff. And you're like, well, you can't really fake that. Like, that ain't a camera glitch. That's definitely something flying around there. Yeah, this is multiple, this is multiple Navy pilots. So it's like either they're telling the truth or they're being told to say what they're saying. Or you got four guys together, three guys together to all agree that we saw this. And we all somehow or another got it on tape.

It doesn't make a ton of sense. Yeah. Yeah, I think that stuff becomes very weird. Have you seen the channel What If Altist? Yes, yeah. I've actually wanted to try to speak to that guy because he covers some interesting stuff. He's done videos about Alaska before, which I've watched. But he's a good YouTuber.

Yeah, I just, you guys kind of remind me each other. You're like around the same age and you're like, both like internet historians. Yeah, right. I like to. Analytic. You're very analytic. I tell people the. I like him.

What is all history? Rudyard. Rudd, Rudd. Yeah, yeah. I thought it was Rudd Yard. Yes, Yard. Yeah, yeah. Because I listened to, you guys just had him on.

Yeah, he was great. I just listened to that. And it was so amazing. That was an amazing video. It would have done amazing. And it still did well, but it got demonitized. It got shut off about. We were talking about politics.

And he said that when he was on the podcast. He says, I think, yeah. He's like, my episodes usually hit a wall at this certain mile, like two or 300,000. And sure enough, our episode was doing good, growing. And then right when it hit that 2,300,000 mark, it just shut off. Yeah. Yeah.

And I have ever gone back to ask them why? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think it was, let me see. I can tell you what it says, but I'm almost positive it was misinformation or something. I know a guy named Clint Russell, who does like, he's on like Tim Pool and those guys a lot. And he does his own show and stuff. And he's had, like, I've talked to him about the same thing. It's like you can talk about all these issues, but then you touch on like one or two of them within that two hour conversation and suddenly the whole thing's now gone.

Yeah. And it's like, this is stupid. Like from a censorship angle, even if you were trying to properly censor people, like this isn't even the way you would do it. You're not even good at like. But probably some bot is something. Yeah. It's just. So if you feedback, this is for the Rudyard video, it just says in the first five minutes, a human reviewer reviewer video.

Let me see. Let's see. They're like, misinformation. Harmful acts and unreliable claims was for Rudyard. And we have another Civil War video. From a guy whose channel is called What If Alt History. Yeah, yeah. So how is it that you can make that connection?

And another one is just literally titled First Five Seconds Sensitive Events. That's all it says. And those are two Civil War videos that have done hundreds of thousands of views. That's crazy. Yeah. So I have seen a clip where where Trump says like one of his things is he's going to try to limit or kind of hold these social media platforms accountable with the censorship. Yeah. It'll be interesting to see if you can.

It's a tricky thing to actually do legally. Yeah. Because they make it very, because of the way 230 is positioned, it's very difficult to actually get anything done with the censorship sort of apparatus. They basically have said that, well, these guys are not publishers. and they don't house content, they're just sort of midiaries. And that kind of gives them the ability to do whatever they want. Like,

as long as they update their terms of service and you agree to it, then you're just like, they're off the hook. I think that's, like, a horrible way to do things because it's like, then you get that. Like, so what? We can't have half the conversations that people,

like, I mean, the news, at any given moment, half of the stories in the current news are bullshit. Are bullshit. And if you even talk about them now, you can't. It sounds like sort of this weird, like, what game are you even playing? Like, there's no...

Well, the news is, is for the most part, not all, but for the most part, is regurgitating what the government tells them to regurgitate. That's Operation Mockingbird. I've grown up in Alaska with a 500 square foot cabin. We had a family of seven. I have five brothers. And the way that I grew up, we didn't have... I didn't go to public school. I didn't go to homeschool, really.

I just was self-taught. My father and mother had, you know, they both went to school in Hawaii. They did not like the public school system, so they weren't a big fan of that. But my dad was really into history. I had a grandmother who had a degree and religious study and history and things like that. So I decided to start reading into like history and mathematics and stuff when I was very young and obviously taught myself a lot of that stuff as I got older. I had.

Well, how did they, just real quick, How did they end up? So, you know, which we talked about before. I had watched the program, and I know you said it's kind of, you know, kind of semi-faked. But I have watched a bunch of episodes more than I should have. But I was incarcerated and I had no choice. Trying to make your option slimmer. That's what's on TV.

There's 12 guys. This is what you're watching. Sit down. So, which was Alaska Bush people. So I kind of, you know, knew, you know what I'm saying? Kind of like when you start talking, it was the first thing that popped in my mind. And my thought was, especially with that guy, I was always thinking of myself like, everybody else has got a gun. He never has a gun.

Like, and I'm thinking, this guy's a felon. Or he's hiding or there's some reason he can't have a weapon. They don't want to dress it. but two is how do you end up like is that what you're saying you were kind of off grid like that or semi off grid sort of a mix and how do you end up there how does your parents end up there so my mother my mother was um born in organ she moved to hawaii when she was very young like we're talking one two years old and so she grew up there um with her family my grandfather worked for the military and did stuff like that and worked on on the islands um and then my dad went over there because

because he was doing business with people in that area. So he was traveling back and forth from originally California, because he was born in Orange, California, and then sort of moved around with his family. Got, you know, started dating my mother. They ended up getting married. They moved over. She moved over to Alaska with him.

My grandfather had a leather business. He made, like, leather knife sheaths and stuff like that, and he did carpentry work and things. and so they moved they moved sort of closer to him they originally went towards Big Lake which is where I'm from because where it was was cheap

there weren't many people there the subdivision when they bought the house they bought an acre lot with that 500 square foot cabin on it was already built and when they purchased that place I think they paid somewhere in the ballpark of $40,000 like it was reasonable

back then this was in the mid-90s and when they purchased that place it was one of maybe three homes in the subdivision. There wasn't much actually there yet. It was sort of just this blank space. There was power. So we had electricity for most of my life. Later on, we disconnected from that,

went to generator power because it was just more economic. Like, it saved money, actually, by running the generators over having the hookup. You tend to use less electronics. So no microwave then, no stuff like that, you know. but we we moved there originally because it was cheap you know there wasn't much options and my dad had work in alaska and things like that he was waiting tables at the time at village inn i believe was the place he was working and so they they went with that place because it was cheap and it was

off the beaten path as far as why they wanted to live there i think a lot of it has to do with my dad having sort of grown up in cities and seeing that whole thing and he wasn't really fond of that he never has been. He lives now in Big Lake, or in Seward, rather, which is even smaller than where we were when I grew up, because Big Lake, even though it's, you know, we had a small place and stuff like that, the population is still, you know, something like, I think 15,000 somewhere along there. Now we're living in a place with the population of like 12 to 1,500, if you're lucky. During the summer, it's sort of a tourist area, so you get tourist business.

So it's a good opportunity if you're in a business, because you're, you're in a business. you can go over there and make good money off the tourist industry, which is he runs a coffee stand. So, you know, that tends to be sort of a tourist-based business, I suppose, anything retail is over there. But they, with living there kind of off-grid and why we grew up with that lifestyle was because the school system in Hawaii is very harsh. And my mom had went through the public school system there. And my dad had went through for part of his childhood, the system there. And they were not fans of the education system for a few reasons. The first being that, you know, there were a lot of fighting in that school system. You know, I hate to play the game that

gets played with some of it, but there was racial tension in Hawaii because you have sort of white people who were going to that school and you have Hawaiians who were going that school in Samoans. They didn't take very kindly to white people who were going to that school. And so there was sort of this weird environment that gets created. there. And my dad felt that because of just all of the system he went through and them that they didn't really want to put us through that. So we lived very like, not off grid, but just off grid in the sense that we weren't, we didn't have connections to the same social things that all these other people around us had. We didn't go to like school functions. So there was no, you know, there's no

parent teacher conference stuff and all that kind of, those ideas go out the window. You know, you're just basically reading. For me, it was reading books. I started reading. I'm very young. I taught how to tutor for a short while who taught me sort of basics about reading and writing. And then from there, I was just sort of let loose. So I would read anything I could get my hands on.

I went through. We had a public library that was like not close to our place, but close enough that I could get books and bring them back. And so I would read as much as I could. And I really got into economics and history. were the two things that I took sort of liking to. And so over the years, that's been what I've done the most work in. And I like having information. You know, I look at info as being very important. Because when I look at like when I was a kid, that was how I learned things. You know, you get books and you read about a subject and then you learn about that. So for some things, you know,

stories that I've talked about recently where I'm sure we're going to get into. But the, the reason I got to those things in the first place was because I was reading so much and like looking at all these different things and going uh looking at details you know and realizing that details were out of place or didn't make sense and that sort of brought me into a headspace of well you know why hasn't anybody looked into these things uh you know and so that for me with joe vogler that was the first story I had that I really went oh this is strange you know how did you come across uh Vogler's story So it's sort of a strange upbringing. In 2008, when John McCain ran for office, he picked Sarah Palin as his vice presidential pick. And Palin was not liked by Alaskans, certainly not by many, because she sort of sold out and went to another state and went to Arizona. And there was a whole bunch of political drama there. But she was certainly a really easy target for the media.

And so they sort of used her as sort of a proxy for McCain. And as that was happening, there was a gentleman named Max Blumenthal who went on to Rachel Maddow's show in 2008. And he talked up a storm about this thing called the Alaskan Independence Party that she, her husband used to be a member of. And it was this group of like anti-government extremist. And he used a lot of buzzwords in it. I've come to very much dislike that gentleman. Marvel Television's Wonder Man. An eight-episode series

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And so I started looking into his case. I've started looking into a bunch more. I sort of talked about it in the context of like political true crime sort of idea. This fact that there's a lot of these cases that don't get touched because they have a political bent to them or because they talk about politics. And so a lot of the like YouTube channels, people like that don't cover them. They just sort of leave that alone because, and I've done writing and stuff like that for other YouTubers. So I was like familiar with that sort of environment and why they won't touch those stories. Yeah, it feels like the algorithm tends to suppress stories like that.

Exactly. Yeah. And I think we're seeing that much more openly now. I mean, obviously you've got the Trump stuff that recently happened with assassination attempts and stuff. And so or the ch or even the Chinese if you mention anything about China like yes that's a perfect example and I don't hear that example being brought up enough because you I mean like I have friends who write about the issues over there and it's like you can the slightest crushed just gone they're crushed and they I've there's a couple of guys that have YouTube channels that

I'll watch and one of the big things they talk about is listen like they're always asking them like join my my subscription to YouTube channel or join Patreon because the bots, the Chinese bots are going to kill this video. You watch some of the videos and you're like, God, why doesn't this have more views? And it is. Yeah, it's very obvious. And if you're paying attention to it, it's like right there in front of everybody. But no one really, very few people actually cover it.

And yeah, so I started looking into his story because of that news clip, him talking about Joe's sort of legacy and who he was. And I'm somebody who has always sort of cared about legacy. That's something I sort of have a, I think is important because I think once we're all gone, that's sort of all you're going to have. You're going to have stories about you, the stories you've told, like, that's it. And for somebody was on air talking about this character and the way that he was, I was like, well, he's dead. He doesn't have a way to defend himself here. So what's the story.

And so that was what sort of set me on the path of looking into his life and death and everything connected to it. And now it's been like four years. How old were you when you focused in on this? Probably about 1920. Okay. So now I'm 25. So it's been like, yeah, four, five years pretty much. The main search has been information because the problem with Joe is that no one talked about the story for so long.

A lot of these people died. And so you have people that I'd love to talk to that were around at the time that he passed or around at the time. he's murdered around at the time that that he was operating with in politics. But there's only really maybe 10 or 15 of those people I've been able to talk to because the rest of them have all passed. It's been they were older then. So it just didn't work out as much as I'd like. I have been lucky to get a hold of people like prison employees and people who worked for

the police department at the time. I talked to two people who I've interviewed that were prison guards. at the prison that the person who supposedly murdered Vogler is at. And so they had gotten statements from him sort of in passing and things like that. So who is Joe Vogler? Like where was he born? How was he raised? So he was born April 24th, 1913.

He's born in Barnes, Kansas. He had a family there. They had a farm. So he worked sort of that sort of lifestyle for a long time. He had family who had been through depressions and things like that. So it was very much like anybody who had family who went through like the Dust Bowl, for instance, stuff like that, has a very different sort of upbringing because you learned how to use everything you had and how to conserve and things like that. At 16, he got a scholarship.

He ended up going on to pass the bar at like the age of 21, which I think at the time was like one of the youngest people to pass the bar at that at that period. And he got really sort of, he goes and gets a job in Texas. He works there for a while, not in law, but just in general. He gets fired from there in, I believe it was 42, 1942, because he referred to Franklin D. Roosevelt as a communist son of a bitch. And that didn't go over well with the people who were working with him and they fired him. He didn't go in the military? No, no. He was not a fan of what.

was happening in World War II and that that whole that whole situation because his his perspective of it was that regardless of what was happening in the war the way the U.S. was handling things was wrong from a bunch of different perspectives specifically how long they took to get involved things like that well I was going to say for a long time we were there was a huge feeling of our consensus that we should remain isolationist right and so some people didn't want to get involved some people wanted to get involved right away. He was more of the isolationist sort of point of view. His perspective was more of a state versus federal government perspective, and that sort of really feeds into what he eventually became because that's sort of, I think, the beginning of his beliefs, because he saw

that, again, you might have, say, half the states or three quarters of the state or three quarters of the country, really, who want to be involved in a conflict, but there's always going to be that portion that doesn't. And so he was sort of concerned with what that meant long term. And so given the sort of political landscape, everything that was happening during World War II, he decided to take off, find somewhere new. And for him that was Alaska, he moved up there, ends up going to work in Codiac and Fairbanks, a bunch of different places. But he works with the Army Corps of Engineers doing like airline maintenance. They would build like runways back then. And the way they would do that would be they'd take logs and lay them across and like it was very primitive way of

building runways but it worked and got the plans to land and so he worked for them until 51 and then he sort of came into his own as far as who he was as a person when he bought his land he got interested in mining and he bought a piece of property off the stees highway in fairbanks alaska and he began to open up a mining operation there what are you mining gold yeah gold gold gold and and and and At the time he was doing, I believe he was doing Placer mining, he was doing some hard rock mining, but I don't know how much of which I have a couple people that I'm actually going to be talking to in the next couple weeks about that specific thing, because I found somebody who was involved with his mining operation, which I didn't have previously.

But again, that's just sort of the game I've been playing for the last four years. It's like sending out phone numbers and emails and trying to get information about people who are still around. It's been a real challenge, tracking down names and stuff. like that. But he bought that place and sort of, I guess, politically, he would become known because of the lawsuit that he had against. There was a company there that was operating buses in Fairbanks and they would take those buses across this, what was called the Cushman Street Bridge. And it was a very narrow bridge. And so whenever the buses were going across the bridge, everybody else couldn't.

They had to just stop on the site of the road. And Vogler hated this, mainly because, because it was a private company and they were using a public bridge, just paid for tax money. And so he sort of had an issue with them taking up the whole thing. And so he publicly sort of talked about it and then eventually he sued. And I don't really think he ever thought he was going to win the lawsuit. I think it was more of that it was public. And because he had passed the bar and he could do these things,

it made it cheat for him, frankly. And so he sort of, he wrote these opinion letters to the paper and the place. And it got a lot of people talking about it. about the issue. And I think that was sort of the start of him realizing, oh, there's like such a small population in the state that you really can make a change politically with a pretty small contingent of people. Was his issue that they shouldn't be using the bridge or that they should pay for a larger bridge? I think either or was really his argument. His position was really that because they're using the bridge and it's paid for by everybody and then everybody should

have the same use of it, but that's not really happening because they have to block up the bridge to be able to go cross. And so it became sort of this really petty argument, in my opinion, but it was at least an intro, I think, for him to the sort of political landscape, because he didn't really look at it as a political issue. We looked at it as sort of like a government issue, and then it was sort of made a political issue by the media in the area, the opinion letters that were written and things like that. So you couldn't, he lost the lawsuit, but He lost it with sort of also the beginning of his sort of a career in a sense in politics, because even though he lost, it sort of put him on the map.

Everybody started reading his opinion letters and sort of paying attention to who he was. And I think that sort of started the whole story for him because throughout the 70s, he'd continue mining. He'd buy up apartments. He started buying up land and putting in housing and things like that. So he built subdivisions and we put in homes and things. So he's doing all right. Oh, he was making, like people, people today have no idea that most Alaskans I talk to.

They look at him as well. He was just a gold miner. No, he was a property investor. The guy was loaded. He was very wealthy. He didn't start off welding. No, no. And there's a great, a great quote from him in one of the few interviews that's recorded of him,

that he gave with a person at the University of Alaska Fairbanks where he's talking about how he grew up and the fact that he had these family members who went through the Depression. and he was asked by a teacher what it is he wants and he said well i want a piece of land that i own i want enough money that i can pay the taxes outright on it never have to worry about that and i want like ten thousand dollars in gold buried in the backyard so he's a very simplistic he was because he came from that sort of cloth i think he really money was not something he wanted to spend it was something he looked at as creation you get more money you get to create things so for him that was property and gold mining.

So those were his interests, not the actual money that was coming from the things, which is sort of strange, but I think he cared more about actual mining and the history of it than he did ever about how much money he was getting from that mining, which I think is interesting when you listen to him speak about the stuff. You get that impression. He doesn't have this like, he sounds very down to earth. The guy never had this, like, and even though he was wealthy, by every extent back then, he was certainly wealthier than the other politicians or people that were around him. He never showed it.

He wore very basic clothing. He wasn't a rich guy. He didn't drive around in a nice vehicle or nothing like that. And so, yeah, through the 70s, he ended up massing over 300 acres. So by the time he passed, he had 300 acres of land in Alaska, which is quite a bit. And most of that land was serviceable land, not like useless land. We're talking about like stuff with places on it. But land developers were not favored in Alaska at the time.

The truth about it is the way that Alaska works is about 60% of the state is owned by the federal government. Right. About 39, 38% of that is owned by the state government. The rest of it is private owned. That means realistically, they say it's less than 1%. It's probably closer to 1.5. but somewhere around 1.5% of land in Alaska is privately owned. That's it.

And everybody... But Alaska's huge. Right. And there's a lot of reasons behind the way the land ownership is broken out. Joe made arguments about statehood. And that's something that his was really the primary argument he had was around the, was around whether or not the way that we became a state was legal. And whether or not the fact that we became a state is necessarily good.

for Alaskans. And he sort of separated those into two arguments. The main thing he argued, and this is sort of what I think got him in trouble politically, was that when Alaska became a state in 59, the vote in order to have that become a reality was less than amazing. The way that the vote was taken and the way that people cast ballots back then was, well, you just had to be a citizen of Alaska in the territory. The problem with that is that a lot of the people who were in the territory were either military or federal employees who were brought there specifically to be there to vote for statehood. No, the government wouldn't manipulate an election. I don't believe that. And so you have that being sort of his primary argument. And that really was where he came from

in the 70s upward was this vote was bunk. If this votes bunk, then statehood shouldn't have happened, and if it shouldn't have happened, then we should be having another vote, and there should be a redress of this whole situation. And that brought him to the UN, which happened because before Alaska was a state, the people who actually had jurisdiction over it was the UN, because it was a territory. It was sold from the Russians to the American government. I just kind of assumed that when the American government bought it, it was a state. No, yeah. So it doesn't actually, it didn't become a state until not. 1959. So before

1959, we were legally a territory. And it was purchased from the Russian government went in 18 something? Yeah, it would have been 1800s, early 1800s, late 1800s. One of the two. I'm not positive, but I should know that date, but I don't know, whatever, but it was

for like 50 grand. Not enough. Let's see. October 18th, 1867. There you go. 67. Yes. Actually purchased Alaska for 7.2 million. 7. Oh, I said 50,000. So 7.60. Right.

Which is nothing in comparison to today. Like, when you think about that. But, I mean, Russia still argues to this day that we don't really own it, that they have a claim to it. You took the money. You cash the check. It's hilarious. I love seeing there's billboards occasionally you'll see in Russia and things like that, like propaganda posters and such that'll say like Alaska is Russia and stuff like this.

And all of us Alaskans love laughing at it. Right. We chuckle every time we see it. But yeah, he, the way the Russians handled things was certainly interesting. I mean, most Alaskans, depending on who you talk to, have certain different takes on it. My take is it, when the Russians got to Alaska, they were mostly looking for fur and trade goods. And so you had a native population who's already there. They very quickly either got enslaved or sort of made to fight other native populations.

So something that sort of gets lost in the historical muck there is that the Russians actually used native populations to fight other native populations. They sort of like pitted them against each other, which is sort of an interesting thing. You don't see happening as often historically. And when the sale took place, I think there was sort of this, they called it Seward's Folly. Because William H. Seward was the one who actually made the purchase. and they called it Seward's Folly because everybody thought that Alaska was useless. It was just a giant piece of frozen tundra land that no one was going to use for anything. But I think that it wasn't until really the 1930s that they realized that, oh, this place is important.

And before then, but from a military standpoint, it's not until the 30s. And that was because of some statements that were made by the head of the Navy at the time, where he said that he who holds Alaska holds the world. The reason he said that was from a strategic standpoint. He was saying, well, listen, I mean, Russia's right here. Alaska's right here. If we're trying to look at what these people are saying and doing, you should probably be here from a protection area Alaska is used by the military

for like nuclear stuff. They use the defense stuff. Yeah, so oil was discovered in the early 1900s, talking like 1808, 1809, and it's been there since. The biggest problem with Alaska from a financial standpoint is that, no one's doing anything about there being oil there. None of it gets touched. And that was certainly something Joe had an issue with back then because he said, well, the pipeline was being built. All these things were being put through. And he was trying to impress upon people that

they're doing all this infrastructure building. They're building all this stuff. But none of it's actually being used. I mean, we're not, we're not producing oil. We don't refine oil in Alaska. We basically just collect it and ship it off to other places, which is an issue because it means that we're losing all that income and all the money. those jobs. Exactly. And you'll hear this come up a lot, but sort of the idea that Alaska gets used as the federal government's warehouse, that we're basically just a store room for the feds. And that's accurate to a degree because I point this out to people, people on the left back in the Iraq-Afghanistan days when that conflict was at its peak. You would hear people say,

we're over there for the oil, man, it's all about oil. And I would say, but if that's the case, then why does any of this make sense? Because we've got all these land masses over here in Alaska and Texas that no one's touching that are full of oil. So like if that's really the argument here, then why aren't you just doing that over there?

It doesn't really make a ton of sense. And looking back on it now, knowing what I know, it's like, well, because if you started protecting oil in Alaska, you started doing all these things there, then you wouldn't need to be doing all the things you are in the other countries. You wouldn't have that as an excuse. All right.

So I think it's sort of a useful thing to be let alone. Right. So it gives us the ability to push America, Western agendas in other parts of the world. Right. The way that the state has done things over the last few years, especially more blatantly, is proof of that. We have fishing industries that aren't allowed to really fish. You've got sort of this situation where foreign countries, foreign companies are allowed to come in and basically take over our markets in the state. So you've got a fishing industry that's really like 70% foreign interest.

It's not really an Alaskan fishing industry anymore. Somebody like Joe, somebody like myself sort of takes the opinion of like, well, just stop that. Don't allow them to come into your waters and take all your fish. Like that's the easy solution there. And the problem with making that sort of change is that the federal government says you can't do that. The state governments can do that just fine. But the feds, they don't allow that kind of stuff because then you have sort of relationships break down between the federal government and these other countries. Whereas if you're just Alaska, well, what do you care if the federal government has a relationship with this country that's thousands of miles away?

Right. The point that I always make to people is if D.C. is making decisions about Alaska. DC couldn't be further from us. We're talking about a place that's over 2,000 miles away, and they're making decisions about people they've never seen or visited. The state of Alaska is so much different than other places you go. It's not really easy to put it in a box the same way you would another state. Hawaii is similar in that sense. You can't. It's hard to compare Hawaii to California or Oregon.

But it's like, well, no, it's environmentally different. The population's certainly different because you have sort of the Polynesian roots and different roots with Samoa and stuff like that. Whereas Alaska is sort of similar. You have Alaska natives that have been there before the other people got there. And now you have other people there that could live. living in communion with each other, which we didn't have nearly as bad of a situation as far as that goes in people in Arizona or other states did. For us, because the state's so large, there was a lot less conflict in general with native populations than there were in other areas.

Right. Because it's harder for you to rub up against each other. You go over there, we'll go over here kind of thing. So the UN, he was in the, Joe was it, he went to the UN, he was pushing for. The UN thing started because the people legally who had control of the territory before we were a state was the UN. They were the ones who made decisions over U.S. territories. And so he sent letters to them, sent sort of intent to speak. And the way that the U.N. works is you have to get a sponsor to allow you to go speak.

You're not just allowed to go talk in front of the U.N. Another one of the countries that are already a member has to say, well, okay, this guy going to talk. and Joe had been attempting to do that for quite a while. I think he started in, it would have been 84, that he started doing that. But he ends up getting responses from Ali Kamani, who now is in the news again because he's in a coma, just I saw that today as I was waking up, but he's been around for a long time, and he was not a fan of the U.S. in the 90s, and they were UN members. And Joe and him had exchanged some letters back and forth.

he had agreed in one of these letters to sponsor him. Joe had been contacted, told you're going to go speak. And then it was about a week, a week around. It's really about four days from what I've been able to like actually pinpoint, but I say a week just because it's easier. But it was about a week before he left was when he went missing. And it wasn't until 2020 that the UN documents were declassified and those became public record. So it's been it's been sort of battle in that front to even get a hold of it. Public or private letters sent back and forth between Kamani and him has been something I've been attempting to track down for last like three years now.

Most recently I found an individual who was connected to the party. He's now in his 80s, but he claims to have one of the letters. So I'm going to try to collect that. I have to go to Fairbanks, so it's a whole trip. So how does he disappear? He gets on a plane, the plane lands and he's the only passenger that's missing? No, so his neighbor, his neighbor right next to him noticed that his dogs were not outside. Joe had, I believe, four dogs, and he had a goose that were on his property.

And he would have the four dogs would come outside in the morning. He'd have the goose outside in the morning. Like that was just his sort of pattern. And so his next door neighbor noticed that his truck was there or his vehicle was there, but there wasn't anything going on, no movement in the home. And so he eventually walked over there and realized that the four dogs, and the goose were inside the house. They had been locked up.

And so that really concerned him, and so he called the cops. And originally, for a long time, the police publicly had said that Joe went missing because of his old age. The argument was, at that point, he was in his 90s. They said, well, he just walked off. He was older guy. And everybody around at that point was like, no, it's not the case. And there was a bunch of reasons for that. But the primary one was because at that point in time, the AIP was sort of the, a lot of

The Alaskan Independence Party was sort of on top of the world. His party, because what had happened is they had run a candidate for office, and they were trying to become governor of Alaska, and it had failed miserably, and Joe sort of went back to the drawing board. He found this guy that he really liked, and he ran him, and then right before the election, he had that guy drop out, and he selected a guy named Walter Hickle, who had been a Republican to basically switch parties. He convinced Hickle to switch to the AIP, and run.

under their banner and Hickle won. And so at the time of his disappearance, Joe was the chair of the party that actually had control of the state of Alaska. So the fight that he had been sort of fighting since he got to Alaska in the 50s was seemingly sort of enraged. Like he had actually successfully sort of gotten this person in office,

like maybe there'll be some change that comes from that. And it was sort of around that time that he goes missing. And the UN discussion and all that sort of goes away side. How does it, well, you say it goes missing, like he was scheduled

to leave or to go to what? He had told. He held in New York, the UN? Yes, yes. Yeah. So he's going to go to New York. And four days before he's going to,

I'm assuming, jump on a plane. Right. He just, one day, his next door neighbor notices, like the dogs haven't been let out. So he goes by,

there knocks on the door. Cops show up. Cops go in the house. Nothing gone. They say there is no, sign of breaking and entering, no sign of anything missing. There was no blood, no scuff marks, no tire tracks. I mean, when I say there's no nothing. Packed? No, there's nothing. There's, there's, and Joe is missing, his hat's missing, and his handguns missing. But other than those things,

which were on him at any given time, he carried, I believe it was actually a 32. I've heard some people report that it was a 22. I think he actually carried one of those 32 bobcats, those little Ruger pistols they used to make. And he had a hat sort of similar to this, more of an older school style. And he vanished in the sense that when they went to the place, he wasn't there. There was nothing, no evidence of anything having happened.

And so the police were sort of like, well, this is just an old guy who wandered off in the woods. And so they put out sort of this while we're searching for this guy. But they didn't really make much noise about it. And that didn't sit well with a lot of the people who were in the party at the time. AIP was made up of people who were pretty voistrous. So they ran campaigns. They would put signs up everywhere around Alaska that said, where is Joe? These yellow posters that people would

see everywhere. And that happened for a long time. I mean, this went on for, I think it wasn't until nine and a half months into him being missing that eventually they would find him. And then that happened with a whole chain of events that started with, really started with, really started with about four or five months into the whole thing. There was lieutenant governor at the time who very much disliked what was being done by the police as far as their way of handling the case. He, his name was Jack Coghill.

He's very famous in Alaska for being sort of an old-school Alaskan. And he was well-known and had some poll in the state because of that. And so he went on radio and publicly lambasted the police department at the time and said, listen, you guys aren't doing anything. about this. Like, this guy didn't just wander off. Right. And this sort of caused everybody to have to kind of go in overdrive. At least that's sort of the narrative that gets put out there. I don't know how much of that is actually accurate because it's hard to say. What we know is that an anonymous tip was sent to the police that there was a car with a bullet hole, specifically a flatbed truck

with a bullet hole in the hood of it that was driving around where Vogler's home was. And so this is what began sort of them looking at this character, the truck. They ended up linking the truck to a guy named Manfred West. Manfred West is sort of known in Alaska and sort of the criminal world there as cartoon Freddie. He had done, yeah, he's a painter. I have some of his artwork. He did like watercolor and oil painting. But he would do advertising and signage for people in Fairbanks and stuff like that.

But he was a legit, like, two-bit criminal. Like, this is a guy who was doing, doing, like, breaking and entering stuff, assault stuff. He did check fraud, I think, once. He got caught on everything he did. Right. He gets caught, and he got caught for a check fraud, and I believe breaking and entering were the two things that he got caught. That's the most recent time than this whole happened. And so he was already in custody.

And so he gets put in custody by the cops, and they're going through the whole trial process, and then he gets placed into a halfway house. in Fairbanks. And it was actually from that halfway house that he was just released. And they don't really have a reason for why. When you go and actually talk to the police there, they don't have a reason for him to have been released. He was just let out. And he, the, the story goes, according to the police officers, is that that's how they knew about him was because the, because of the car getting reported with the bullet hole in the hood and them knowing that he was driving that truck, then they were able to go put out, okay, we need to go look for this guy. But then when they

went to the halfway house to go look for him, he wasn't there, because he'd been released. So then they find out he ran basically to his brother's cabin. So they go up to the brother's cabin, and they hatch this idea to take an RV, and they load a bunch of cops into the RV, and then they park that RV outside the building, and they start sort of negotiations with him to try to get him outside because they see him in the window with a rifle. And Manfred West, according to, I believe the officer's name was Jim McCann. He, over the phone, confessed to the killing of Joe Vogler. And I have a bunch of issues with that.

Is this recorded or just that? He told me he told me didn't. Right. This is one of the few things, one of the many issues I have with this case is that you'll see as a pattern as we go through this. There isn't any hard evidence that Manfred West did any of this. There is no anything that anybody can actually point you to that says, oh, this guy did this. Because the so-called confession doesn't exist in reality. The tips that led police to Manfred West in the first place came from anonymous sources.

The tip about the truck with the bullet hole, we don't know still to this day where that came from. So it's kind of like it round up the usual suspects and find some way we can put this murder on because we're getting. heat and the press. Exactly. And sort of furthering that, you have Manfred West in this cabin, and you have him seen with the gun, and the police made the decision at that point that they were going to sort of engage in with him to try to negotiate his way out of there. During this phone call where he supposedly admits to this killing, he lights the house on fire. And again, this is one of those weird things where we don't actually have evidence that he lit the house on fire. That's just what we're told by the cop that was there,

was that he lit the house on fire from the inside. Okay. The house burns to a smoldering pile because the police decide that the fire is too big for them to try to fight it. And so they instruct the fire department to just let it burn to the foundation, which it does.

And the police assumed they were going into collective body. But they didn't because Manfred West had fallen through the crawl space of the home, and because the home was built on top a water bed, I'm assuming. It had a bunch of water underneath there. And so he fell into a bunch of icy water and survived the burning of the house. And so then you have this problem of, okay, well, now we have this guy in custody. You have him supposedly admitting to the killing.

Immediately he goes into custody and attempts to recant this confession, says, I didn't give a confession. This doesn't work. It sticks, and they decide to move forward with trials. During that whole time, they still don't have a body. They don't have Joe Vogler's body. There is nothing at that point as far as physical evidence of how he was actually killed. And so it's during this time that they get another anonymous tip from somebody who's supposedly a cellmate with Manfred West. Now, this tip gives them the location of the body, tells them where in Fairbanks? Just outside of Fairbanks, he was buried.

They go there, they end up finding Vogler's body wrapped in a tarp. It had been shot in the back and the back of the head. It doesn't look good for... Right. Was it Manfred? Man for Man for rest. Yeah. For Man for there.

That doesn't look good at all. So he ends up being found with gunshot wound to the back of the head and the back. And so, and that becomes sort of the starting point for the trial, which never really happened. And the reason behind that is the, again, you have this attempt to recant the statement. Now they've got the body. So now they go into the sort of situation where he's going. to go to trial. They're going to put him through court. All the while this is happening, the AIP has launched their own private investigation. They hired an ex-cop to start looking into the

case because they were really weirded out by some of the stuff that was happening in regards to just the way this whole thing played out. Manfred West, the anonymous tips, everything, they kind of thought it was a bit weird. And because you had people with money in the party at that time. So the anonymous tip is from his roommate or something? someone saying his roommate told me. That isn't known. So what we have as a statement is we have as a statement from the police that they got an anonymous tip from a so-called cellmate. That's what the statement said.

And so the problem there is... That could be just some guy who says, I just got out of jail. I don't want who I am, but I was one of his roommate. And because you don't know the name, you can never really know. Just like the truck, just like them saying they saw the truck with the bullet hole, you can never really know. So the real murder could have called and said, Yeah. Yeah.

There's this truck that this is the guy. He's got a bullet hole in it. He also drives this. He's a painter. Yeah. They track him down. They find him. He goes to jail.

Then it's not solid enough. So he calls and says, hey, I was this guy's former roommate in prison. He told me this. This is where the body is buried. Right. And then that leads them to the body. And the body has a bunch of issues too.

My understanding is certain items were never recovered from the body. They never recovered the gun. They never recovered the hat, certain things like that that were weird because they had to have been somewhere or destroyed or gotten rid of. The fact that he was shot in the back of the head is shot in the back is strange. And the reason that's strange is because the story that Manfred tells and the story that the cops tell. Because it doesn't really fit. The story that the police put forward is that Manfred West attempted to rob. Joe Vogler that there was a fight that ensued between the two of them in which Manfred West shot and killed him and went and buried the body so that he can get away with it. The problem I have with that is, well, then why didn't he take anything? One thing I found when I was looking into this case was that Joe was a gold miner, right? So there's always this idea of, well, what about gold, right? When he died, the family were fighting over what he had when he passed away. And one of the things that came up was that there were. There were.

multiple ounces of gold in his house when he died. Even at the time, gold was a hot commodity and worth money, and this is a guy who didn't have any money who supposedly is robbing this guy, so why isn't any of that gone? The story that Manfred West put forward was that it was a C4 explosive sale gone wrong, that he was attempting to sell Joe Vogler C4 explosives,

whether this was for mining stuff or whatever, I don't know, but that's the story he tells, and that Joe told him to leave the property, they got an argument and he shot him. That was the so-called confession that he gave over the phone. Okay. But beside that, I've went into, again, there's a version of the story that he told in a documentary in the 1990s.

It's the only time I think he was interviewed by anybody, which he tells a completely different story. He's also been interviewed by multiple writers in Alaska. and given completely different stories. So none of his, no version of Manfred West tellings of the event has ever been identical. And on top of it, you have multiple people I know who have been to prison with him and multiple people who worked at the prison with him who have told me much different story. And those stories all seem to line up, which is that he was a patsy,

that he was basically an informant, a two-bit criminal who was paid in a way to keep tabs on the party that existed there in Alaska. And the more I've dug into this, the more I've gone, it's not as far-fetched as I think. The reality is, I've known people who have been sort of connected to federal investigations,

things like that. Bodies with a guy named Brandon Caserta, who was caught up with the whole Gretchen Whitmer kidnapping thing back a few years ago that became sort of public. And his story is something I paid a lot of attention to because he's a character that was like, he's in a group chat with 12 federal agents and then two regular guys.

So you can get manipulated to do a lot of things of 12 people that you trust are in a call with you. It's a much different ballgame than I think people think it is. And so when I look at situations like that, I'm like, well, he was working with the party before he was doing a signage for the party. He would make signs for them. And so he had involvement with the Alaska Independence Party and Joe Vogler before anything bad happened, before any of the cases or any of that. And so one thing I've certainly pointed out is it's very possible that Manfred West, before any of this ever happened, was an informant. He was basically brought on to keep tabs on the party, basically. This was during the Cold War.

The Cold War ended in 91. Vogler is dead in 92. This is right around that sort of pinnacle period where Alaska is seen as this sort of asset. And I think there was this worry that if Vogler went and spoke at the UN, that people listened, and there was enough people listening, or it became sort of an argument, that maybe somewhere down the road he's successful. Or maybe he sways enough people in the state of Alaska by publicly speaking about this on a bigger scale, that there's just a grassroots sort of movement that builds up even bigger than there already was. And so I think having somebody sort of to keep tabs on the party and things like that makes sense.

I don't see why the feds wouldn't do something like that. But because I assume they did the same thing with the Communist Party at the time. I doubt you could be a member of the Communist Party in California, for instance, in the mid-80s without somebody being in there being federally connected and feeding information back, which I don't even necessarily know as a bad thing as much as it is just a thing. We can all recognize that that happens to some degree, whether or not he was an informant or or whether or not he was connected to them. I can't prove that. I don't think anybody will ever be able to, frankly. But I think when you look at where he came from the fact that he flew in, when he flew back into the state of Alaska, he did so under an assumed name. He didn't use his real name. He didn't communicate with any of the AIP people. It wasn't like he was talking with them at the time

that Vogler died. At that point, he had been pretty well separated from him. And when Vogler dies, there's sort of this, or rather when his body was found, the reaction of everybody in the AIP was basically that there was no way that this person did this alone. Like, this is a guy who had no experience. He'd never killed anybody before.

He didn't even do any violent crime, from my understanding. And on top of that, he's this, Manfred West back then even was not seen as he wasn't like a criminal bigwig in the state. And there were plenty of those. There were people running around the state of Alaska in the 90s who were legit, like criminals that I wouldn't have wanted to cross paths with.

He was not one of them. He was just anybody else. Alaska is sort of known for people who have warrants and stuff like that to jump to. Right. So you're going to naturally meet a lot of people who are questionable. Yeah. I mean, like growing up, I've met, I've met multiple people. I don't know the story, whether it's true.

And you never really can, but I've met multiple people in Alaska who claim to have been connected to organized crime stuff or connected to murders and things like that. They're on the run for some reason. Yeah, and you can never really know whether they're telling the truth or not, but sometimes when you look at somebody and you see that kind of the way they act and carry themselves, you get a feeling of this person might not be lying. And I've definitely met a few of those. I had a family who, I mean, I have a family member who did do some fraud stuff back in the day

and ran and got away with some of it. So I talk about that stuff sparingly because none of it's, although it's all out of, been so long none of it matters anymore but i learned at a very young age kind of firsthand that there are questionable people there are lots of crestable people around every corner and you're going to come into contact with them all the time it's not something you can really get away from and so with with bogler i looked at the the people he was around and and manfred west just came up as a giant red flag because it's like it makes sense that this is the guy that if you were going to make a patsy out of somebody. If you were going to choose somebody to do that with, you couldn't find a better person than

Manfred West. This guy was already going to prison for a very long time, so he already knew he was going to be staring down a sentence. He knew that he was, he had no money, he had no connections with any of the people in the state that he was in. So it's very easy for that guy to be told, hey, well, take care of your family, take care of you while you're on the inside, give you better prison placement, things like that, which he all got. Eventually, what ends up going on is when the trial gets closer, there is, there one. He pleads no contest. And because of that, no evidence is presented. So there's no written record that we can look back on from my perspective, because this is what I'm into is like the information. Well, there isn't much because there is no real written record of all this stuff that the

police claim. They claim they have this and that and they've made statements about what they believe happened, but they never actually had to prove any of that. And when you try to prove it through what evidence we do have, things like the fact that if the police are correct, this means that Manfred West, who was about 130 pounds at the time, 140 will be generous, moved a already dead body, Joe Vogler, who was a very tall individual, let's say he weighed the same, but a very tall individual, he moved his dead body from in front of his house where he supposedly shot him to the back of the pickup truck after wrapping it in a tarp without any evidence being left behind or any evidence that he cleaned it. So there's no, I mean, it's just the whole thing.

And again, that that lieutenant governor who sort of impressed upon people to reintroduce the issue, Jack Coghill back in the day, he made a statement where he said, if this was just him who did this, this is the cleanest extraction of a human I've ever seen. And that's really accurate. Like, It's as though somebody just plucked him off his property, shot him twice, and dropped him in a pit. It doesn't really make sense for this criminal mastermind that is Manfred West to be the one to do that. It just doesn't fit the bill. During the trial, and while all the trial was going on with West, the Alaskan Independence Party had done their own investigation. I talked about that previously.

They hired an ex-cop to sort of look into things. There were a few things that they found that were interesting, specifically the fact that you had the dogs that I spoke. about earlier on that were typically let out by Joe in the morning that sort of spurred him being seen as missing to begin with right those animals were found by the investigator to have been drugged and so this was brought to the police's attention the police and the public media sort of gave the excuse of well man that Joe Vogler had doped the dogs up to take them to the vet the problem with that is that everybody I say that by the way by the white man was there Is it a common thing?

No, so that has never been put forward, and no vet ever came forward. The cops never put anything out that actually shows that being the case. And furthermore, everybody I say that too looks at me with sort of a strange look. Like, why would you be drugging your dogs to take them to the vet? Because I have dogs. I've got four of them. Never drugged any of them to take them to the vet. I mean, were there drugs in the house?

This is common? Right. And there wasn't any drugs found, nothing illegal actually found in the house really at all that the cops ever put out. The only excuse given by them was that he drugged them to take them to the vet. When they were pressed on that issue, they were still sort of stuck to that. But the truth is, if it had gone to trial, I think that's one of the things that would have been brought forward is like, here's the test on these. Where is this coming from?

Why would this be there? One of the things that was brought up by people who believe that there were other people connected to Vogler's death is that, well, that looks like something more of a coordinated group of. people would do like go dope somebody's dogs up so they're not present when you go in and take somebody out of the house or kill them to me it shows that there was some form of premeditation to his death it wasn't something as simple as the cops say where it's a robbery gone wrong right because you're not going to dope up the dogs after you've already killed the guy that doesn't make a ton of sense and so it it it sort of drew a weird line there and then obviously there's that anticipation for the trial and that that was in 95 he came in wearing a bulletproof vest

and pled no contest and gets carted out of jail. He was there for a total of, I think, 40 minutes and leaves. And that's it. At that point in time, he goes to jail. How much time did he get? I believe he was 80 years was the sentence. But the deal that he actually got was originally he was supposed to be going to what is called Spring Creek. Now, Spring Creek, I live near.

That is the worst prison in the state of Alaska. And you do not want to go to Spring Creek is I have friends. that work there? It's a bad environment. And I don't think he wanted to go there because I think he thought he'd be dead. There were enough people who were in that prison who were friends of Joe and knew the party and the structure and all that. I don't think he would have made it very long. He ended up going to Palmer, which was a minimum medium security prison where they let you go work on a farm and stuff like that. It was a much more relaxed prison environment.

That's where he went and that was part of the deal he made with him. I will say the statements that have been made by the two prison guards who have interviewed and spoken to that were around him, as well as two people who were in prison with him, both of them tell the story that, and this is what he had told them, was that his family and himself were taken care of after Vogler's death, that he got a better prison placement and got to money on his books, and they got money on the outside. Now, again, it's hard for me to take anything that guy says is factual whatsoever, because you have all these different interviews from him, and every version is telling some form of a different story. But the two prison guards I certainly trust, they're two people I know pretty well. They don't have any reason to lie.

They're both retired. They've done their thing. Was this something that he told them? Yes, yes, specifically, in conversation. And the two others are both people who he spoke to multiple times in prison, and were friends with to a degree. One of those individuals had a falling out with him, and that was really the reason why he was willing to talk to me in the first place,

was because they sort of didn't like each other anymore. The other one was somebody who knew him when he got to prison because he was already there, and so he sort of struck up conversation with him on a number of occasions about Joe, because he knew who Joe Vogler was because of his parents, who were AIP members back in the day. So it just sort of got into conversation with him. that guy actually saw my first video. The first video I made, he watched that and contacted me and said,

hey, like, I was, I was in jail with this guy. Like, I can tell you a bunch about him. And I talked to him about where he was in prison and things, and that's sort of how I was trying to verify stuff, because I know where Manfred West was in jail. I know people he knew. So if I know the same people and you were in the jail, then I know you might be telling the truth to a degree at least.

But with his version of the tale he told them, if you were an informant, then that would actually kind of make sense. You get a deal, you go to jail, you get taken care of, you were going to jail anyway. And the fact is his family on the outside getting held, things like that. Again, you'll never be able to prove those things, but I don't think that's something that the government or anybody else who would be involved has any, are not above. So when I look at the way that the whole killing happened, the way that he died, the way the whole thing played out.

Either side of the story from the police being that it was basically this, this robbery gone wrong, or the version of the story from Manfred West that he told them supposedly about the C4 sale gone wrong. Both versions of that story have a bunch of glaring problems with them. The first is, is the moving of the body. The fact that you have no evidence this body was ever really moved. You don't have any evidence that he even died there at his property. You can't tie the death of Vogler to anywhere. They don't have a murder scene.

The only thing they have is the word of Vogler, or the word of Manfred West, rather, or the word of what the cops believe, which is, well, he was killed here at his property. Well, then how do you prove that? How do that happen? Because that fits our scenario. Exactly. And the fact that why was he buried just outside of Fairbanks in an area that was still traveled on? This wasn't like some desolate area. This was off of a dirt road just right there.

People in Alaska know, anybody who lives there knows, if you really want to make a body disappear, it's not a hard thing to do. The state's giant. There's a lot of area of the state where there is literally nobody. So if that's the game you're playing, it's not a... So the fact that he buried him, supposedly where he buried him, doesn't really make sense.

It's like, why wouldn't you just go get rid of this body? Why would you put it somewhere where it even could be found again? It was in a shallow grave where animals could have dug it up anything. So it's just a lot of that stuff doesn't really mix with the story that gets told. And the more you look into it, the more that I started reading accounts from back then and talking to people who were, I talked to the party secretary who was friends with Joe at the time. And there's a couple individuals who are now, the guy who is now the chair of the AIP because the party's still around. He knew Joe personally.

He was his engineer friend. who did like work on his mining equipment. Most of the people I've spoken to who knew him are like, he wasn't buying C4 from Andrew West, and if they was, it wasn't going to be done from him. It would be done from a mining supply store. Like he had money. It wasn't, there was no need for somebody who's that wealthy

to go buy C4 on the black market. Like, why would you do that? You own a mine already. You can buy whatever explosives you want. There's no restrictions on that from that point of view. So the whole thing from that perspective just never really made sense to me. And I don't think the evidence has it makes sense.

I think that ultimately Joe specifically had, he had the ability to do something that had never been done. When you hear about people talk about independence movements and state independence, which is something that we hear, but we always hear about it through the lens of, like, a secessionist and that sort of argument, this idea of like the civil war and that whole context. That's what not what he was about at all.

He was about this idea that this vote was wrong. The people should have a decision in how things have done. If they don't, then we're not living in a democracy or whatever you want to refer to it as. We're just living in whatever they want to put us around us. What I'm wondering about is, well, I have two questions. One, well, let me, so I have two questions. One is, have you ever ordered a Freedom of Information Act? So that's something I've started kind of getting into now.

Because the only thing I had up until this point was really my own search of just anything I could find that was public. So I got the UN stuff. That was made declassified. So I went and got all that stuff. And now, but recently I somebody brought to my point of view. It's like, well, even if there wasn't a trial, you could go Freedom Information Act. Some of the reports that would have been generated by the cops. Well.

And at the time, I didn't even think that was a thing I could do. Like my assumption was, well, that's all gone. And like there was no trial, so that stuff goes away. So first of all, you can do two. You can do a Freedom of Public Records Act, which should be for Alaska. Right. And the second would be a federal Freedom of Information Act with, you could do that with the CIA, the FBI, the anybody that you think could be involved on like Vogler. Right.

Manfred, there's going to be a ton of stuff. Right. Yes. But you could also go to same thing with Manford, FBI, CIA. Maybe you're probably going to get, from the CIA, you're probably going to get, they call it a, I guess it's called a global or gobbler. There's a response where they say we cannot confirm. Right, right. I've seen those before.

Yeah. I think. FBI and something, you don't know what's going to come back. You don't know. I think specifically the one I'm most interested in would be like, yeah, specifically FBI, because they would have been the ones that would have had jurisdiction, I think, at the time in that area. and then would be the local police, like the police department in Alaska, because, and again, when I say,

I just kind of figured this out, this was like six months ago or so when I was talking to one of the people who I would talk about this case with it every once in a while because they were around during that time. I was discussing with him, and I was like, I want to kind of get

some of this documentation and stuff, but trying to track everything down has been hard. And he mentioned to me, like, well, why don't you submit for this and that? And I hadn't even really thought about it at that point. And it had just been going on archives.

So you can get the basic form online. It's a one-page document. It's got a bunch of other bullshit. I'll find it. Yeah, I'm sure it's easy enough. And the other thing is what you want to do with at least a federal. You probably, you want to do it a federal mistake because some states are assholes. Yeah.

But here's what gets around all of it is get a copy of both their death certificates. That I actually, I believe I have a copy of Joe's in my stuff at home. Because I had it. Then it should be easy. And when you fill it out, you explain that this is who the person. is and they're going to ask who you are and you say I'm a reporter that or I'm a journalist looking into it and this person is deceased so I got two things when I have freedom of press on my side and two the guy's dead yeah so don't come back and say oh it has to be on you the fuck it does you know what I'm saying so I didn't even think about that but that's a good way right because the Freedom of Information Act like you I can't unlike the states I can go and order one on on Colby and let's say there was an arrest report and I can get that it doesn't matter if he's alive or not they'll give it to me in the state oh at least the state of Florida. Right.

But in the federal government, they're like, this guy's still, we're not giving you anything. He's still around. They'll say he's an expectation of privacy. But if you say he's deceased, then that expectation's not really there anymore. And you don't even need his death certificate.

If you can get, if you have an obituary where you say, hey, by the way, he's deceased, died in prison, here's his obituary, he's deceased. Then they're going to be like,

absolutely. And they'll punch it in. You'll be shocked because if he's mentioned in, let's say an FBI 302 form of some other guy. Right. It doesn't have to be his case.

You'd be shocked. You'll get, you'll get like, what the hell is this? It's like, it's like 18 pages. And what this is, it has nothing to do with him. And then you'll be read, you'll read it and you go, oh my God, this guy's talking about him. Right. Yeah. Yeah, it's amazing.

That's going to be, that's going to be something I, I basically what I'm working on now is I started, this is about a year ago, but I started making a sort of new version of the video that you watched. So that was like 45 minutes and it's me sitting in my little like in front of a bunch of black light posters because I didn't have a studio at that point. But now I'm working with a little bit more equipment working with more know-how. I taught myself how to edit better and all that kind of stuff. So I'm going to be putting together like somewhere around an hour and a half, two-hour like more documentary style thing where I'm going to have interviews and all that kind of stuff in it because I have all these recordings of phone conversations I've had with like the prison guard people or

with people who were connected to him back in the day and people talking about who he was as a person and that kind of stuff that I didn't really get to use in that because it's just me sort of talking and I didn't really have the knowledge of how to do it. So that's sort of what I've been working on and I think the more I've dug back into it, I realize like, all right,

this has become sort of the thing that I'm going to be doing for a while because now Freedom Information Act stuff is definitely going to be something I get, especially for a documentary and actually putting that together. Or you're writing a book? Yeah, so that I'm working on. I've got somewhere in the ballpark of like 65 pages of stuff I've written now. So I'm just working on getting it expanded and moving stuff around. And I've never done it before. So it's like a whole new experience. And it's been interesting.

What do you think happened to Vogler? Why do you think it happened? I think that I think if I had to make my version of events, and this is what I've said in a few of my. in other interviews and things I've said, but I think that I don't think Manfred West, if he was the killer, killed him alone. I don't think it's possible. I don't think from the evidence that's there, or what we do have, shows that being the case.

I don't think the version of the story that the police put forward is accurate, because it doesn't make any sense, and you would have evidence of it being the case, and same with Manfred West's version of events, like the idea of them selling C4. There's a bunch of reasons why that doesn't work, but it just doesn't fit.

Like, the problem I have is that there isn't much of a motive for Manfred West to want to kill Joe Vogler. There isn't a motive. I mean, there's no, unless the police created out of the robbery aspect or it's created out of the sale aspect, there is no motive. The people who do have a motive for getting rid of them, frankly, are the federal government. The guy was arguing at the time for state independence and was about to give a speech to the

UN, which could have very well sort of brought that forth, at least on a sliding scale. I don't make the argument that West, or that Bogler was going to go give that speech, and the next day we were going to be an independent state. My argument is more so that if he had given that speech at the UN, it would have given other states the ability to glom onto it. It would have become a social movement, and that's sort of hard to kill. Well, he may be known in Alaska, but you don't want him to be suddenly he, it's a lot harder to kill someone when they've taken the stage, the international stage, as opposed to this is some

guy right now that's ranting in way out there in Alaska. We take care of now or in two years from now if this gains traction, it's going to be hard for us to get rid of this guy. And of course, the fact that their party was in power at that point. So if they now get another AIP person reelected in the next term and then that keeps happening because he's talking about this, then it kind of leads into like, oh, we could lose a grip on this whole stage. from that perspective. And so I think there was a motive to get rid of them. And I think that this was at the tail end of the Cold War.

I mean, anybody who's read or done research into the Cold War and what went on there, I mean, the U.S. government and the Russians both had no problem killing people willy-nilly and assassinating individuals on every side. So I think that anybody who thinks the government's beyond that, I think, well, not really factual because you have all this sort of happened. And I think that West was a fall guy. I think it was a Patsy. I think that they saw an opportunity.

because he was probably already an informant. I think he was already giving information to the feds basically on the political movement and the things they were doing. And so then it became a, well, we have this guy already over here, like just send him over with a different name and get the problem solved. I think some of the most telling things about it are the fact that he flew into the state under a different name. He got released from the halfway house for no real reason. and then just all the information that leads them to even decide this is the killer come from other people who will never know the name of, never know really who they were. And so I think it's something that I look at it as being some form of cover-up.

Whether or not it was a cover-up from the FBI or CIA kind of people or whether it was a cover-up from even state government actors is possible. I would levy against that simply because of the people involved. the cops were almost complicit in a sense. What I mean by that is the state police were the ones investigating this as well as the troopers. Both of those groups of people, I mean, for seven months, we're telling people that he just wondered off his property. And so they weren't investigating anything. They weren't even really looking into it.

And so there's, as somebody who looks at it like, well, this guy goes missing, you clearly would have something or you'd have some motives where he would be going. They didn't even do that. I said, well, he's old. He wandered off. At least searched the woods. I mean, for God's right. You really believe that. You would search the woods.

And it's an old guy. He's not going to get very far. Yeah, this is, this is sort of what the people back then were saying, the members of the party, then we're going, well, wait a minute. Like, none of this fits. None of this makes sense. And then you get private investigator who finds out these dogs have been drugged and there's all this strangeness there where you start going, well, it looks like this guy was not. frankly, I don't think if he was killed there on his property, there's no way it was Manfred West. It had to have been done by another person.

Because Manfred West just wouldn't have had the know-how or the ability to get that body out of there after it was dead without leaving a drop of evidence. It's just not an easy thing to do. And we're talking about a time with dirt. This is all an area that was like, we're not talking about a prim and proper, like, nice yard with manicured stuff. It's an area that it'd be hard to even just pull a vehicle into and out of without them know. knowing there was a car there, let alone shoot somebody twice, multiple shots being fired, removed. Or somebody drug the dogs, removed him by gunpoint, took him somewhere else, shot him twice. And that's sort of what I've laid more towards the side of is I believe what most likely transpired was either he was killed off of his property and the dogs were taken care of after the fact or he was killed basically by what you just laid out.

that somebody arrived, drug dogs, dogs are removed from the situation, take Vogler away from the house, kill him, bury him, that's it. The problem is Manfred West doesn't have to know how to do that, and he didn't have the real ability to do that at the time. Like, he's not, this isn't a guy who would have been able to get Vogler out of his house. They weren't that friendly. Like, these are, this is somebody who, the only real way I see it possible for him to have killed him would be, he literally drove up his driveway, knocked in his door, got him to walk outside,

and blew his head off. The problem with that is, where's the evidence of that happening? Where is the, you have nothing here. You also de facto it was shot in the back of the head. And Manfred West says this is because, or the police say, this is because during the robbery gone wrong, Vogler ran, and then he was shot in the back and the back of the head while he was running. The problem with that is that that doesn't add up with Manfred's story or any of the other evidential stories we have there. If you shoot somebody while he's running in his front yard, you're going to have blood, you're going to have bullet casings, you're going to have scuff marks and the dirt and the gravel.

None of that exists. And so it's like, so we're just supposed to believe that Manfred West, what, stayed there for half a day, basically making this whole environment perfect and repainting this, uh, this environment for the police to find, which they find and say, well, nothing missing, no sign of a struggle. Plus the drugs of dogs puts the dogs up. Right. Yeah. And it's, it's all.

Drugs of dogs to me means, tells me that a couple people knocked on the front door. Yeah. He opened the door. They immediately shot the dogs with tranquilizer guns. They drag the drugs into a room, closed doors so nobody could look inside and see. They ask, they bring him, put him in a car, drive whatever it is, five miles away. Have a pre-dug hole, take him out of the car, shoot him in the fucking head, drop his body in there, throw dirt over it. and now we've got a we've got now we don't have to worry about blood at a crime scene we don't worry about a crime scene we know and then you find somebody that you can blame criminal who's already got a record who's already was just in a halfway house who you and i think yeah i mean that's legitimately that is what i believe happened the more alaskans i talk to about this that were around then i am amazed by the amount of people who are just open like no that guy was killed by the government like you hear that from i mean at least

half of the people who know the story are like yeah wasn't this that wasn't that the guy that was off while he was doing their independent stuff and most of them don't even bring up manfred west because they all know that that story doesn't make sense i mean even at the time the the party members at the time definitely didn't believe the story that was being put forward and then when there was no trial that sort of sealed the deal for them because they're like well why wouldn't you at least let there be the evidence out there so we can make up a sort of get closure there was certainly never any closure in the case. And again, what if I'm correct about that, then they're killing him worked.

Because not only did he not give the speech at the UN and that doesn't happen, but the AIP, the Alaskan Independence Party, just basically ceases to exist after he dies. He was sort of the voice behind that party. He was the one pushing it forward and they had really gotten wins at that point. Obviously, I talked about Walter Hickle winning office, but that was a lot of. the big one he took office and that was put their party in charge of the whole state like that's what you want and at the end of the day after vogler is dead the party never holds office again after that they never run any real serious candidates and the people who've taken over the guy who's in

charge right now i think is okay because he used to know joe and he knows sort of his his story but i would say that there hasn't been a single person in the party who's actually talked about this story. I shouldn't be here. I tell this to people all the time. This should have been somebody in Joe's family doing this. This should have been somebody who was a party member who was alive then doing this. But for me, it became the legacy thing. I have a real problem watching people's legacies get besmirched publicly, especially when I think the people doing it wrong. So when I was younger, that was the Max Blumenthal thing. I talked about him talking in the news and calling him, He called them a neo-Confederate.

And I was not a fan of that because that's what they call people like the sort of what you'll get hit on YouTube for, the discussion of the stuff about the Civil War stuff. That's what they call those guys. And they get put in that sort of basket. But that's not what Joe was. And I show it in his own recordings because I have recordings of his interviews where he says, no, that's not what we want. We want to have a vote. We want people to actually make a decision on how this state should be handled. and his argument was that didn't happen in the 50s when we became a state because the vote was stacked.

They had federal employees and soldiers that were making casting ballots in that. So you were never going to have a fair election. So you were never going to have a real decision made. And I think that was sort of where it was coming from. But as far as my ultimate opinion, I think that there was some form of cover up. And I think multiple people were involved in death. And I think realistically, if I were to put it on somebody's doorstep, it would probably be the CIA. And that's because, frankly, they were the ones handling most of the wet work back in the day for during that Cold War era.

So if anybody was going to do it, that's who'd be doing it. Those would be the people organizing it. And by the way, those are the same people who are involved with some of the most horrible things that have gone on in Alaska's history. the W71 nuclear explosions, the Kaniken project, all of these things were, when we talk about Alaska being the playground for the federal government, what that really means is like they use this like Arizona, everybody knows like they go do testing out there with nuclear testing and things. Because it's an unpopulated area, big flat desert, you can go blow stuff up and have fun. But in Alaska, they did it on islands where there were native populations, where there were still people living nearby. They exploded the world's largest underground nuclear tests we ever did was in Alaska. And all of that stuff was being fought by the state, fought by the people who lived there.

They were fighting tooth and nail for it. All of that stuff is gone now. And frankly, I think a lot of it went with him, with Joe. Like, with his death came, I think, the death of a lot of the independence of the state. Like, he was the guy sort of putting that voice out there. And it made people feel less crazy because they could say, well, no, this guy is saying, what we believe in and he's up there talking, that just doesn't exist anymore. So there's no, like there isn't an independence movement in Alaska anymore. The independence movement is the people

who said, screw you, I'm going to go move really royally because it's hard for the government to touch you when you're living in 300 miles from anybody. So that's really the only way you're going to get independence there. So what's his name? Manfred West. Is he still alive? Yes. Yes. Really? Yes. He's in Spring Creek about 15 miles from. I live. You ever try to talk to him? I'm doing that very shortly after I get back. I'm going to have an interview with him. He already agreed? So yes and no. I got somebody who is in jail with him to get a message to him who then got a message back to me. Why, he's not returning? No, I sent a letter to him and then never got a response. And so I got in touch with somebody who I know who's in there. I was like,

hey, can you ask this guy what the deal is? And they asked him about it. And I think he either just didn't get the letter didn't bother to read it because he said he was willing to chat. And so I'm supposed to have a response. I have mail that I had not gone through yet because I hadn't picked up all my mail. I have a PO box. But apparently there was a letter in there from the prison. So I'm assuming that's from him. So I'm going to look at that when I get back. And hopefully that means I'm going to have an interview with him. But I mean, I know where he's at and theoretically I can get an interview through someone else. because I know a couple people who are friends with him. I've met or at least spoken to his ex-lawyer who definitely has contact with him still and stuff.

So I'm going to get to talk to it one way or another. It's been something I really started getting moving just about like four or five months ago. To be honest with you, I took a bit of a hiatus from YouTube and everything for a bit. I started more focusing on weight stuff. I was bigger trying to lose a little bit of weight and I didn't have time. so I kind of took my leave from everything for a bit and came back about like four or five months ago to start kind of getting my hands dirty again

and getting a hold of all my old contacts in people. But it'll be, my goal is like for the book and stuff like that I've talked about, my goal is to have like the documentary finished within the next like six months, somewhere in that range. The book is going to be around the same time because I figure I should be able to finish them at the same time because most of the information is going to be shared between the two of them.

So it makes it kind of easier. Right. It's just, it's a new experience for me. So it's all very funny. I have to teach myself every part of it. Is he releasing these paintings from prison? So what happened was with that is he, and this is sort of weird, but there was a news story when I first started researching the whole thing of a woman who owned

an art gallery and I think it was Oklahoma or something like that. But apparently she just received in the mail paintings from Manfred West and she didn't know anything about it. It turns out like he had sent them to her because the previous owner of the building used to be a friend of his or something. And so he wanted her to sell the paintings and just keep the money or send some of it back to him to put on his books. Right.

But then, but I don't think she ever sold them. I've tried to get them multiple times. the problem is the woman who owned the place closed down. And I haven't been able to track down a way of contacting her to, because I buy them off of her just to have them. I have one, it's like yay big, it looks like a postcard size little painting that he did. And I got that from a guy who worked at the prison who just had a bunch of them because he would spy them and sell them and stuff like that.

And the prison guards would get given them all the time. But he became known for that because in Palmer prison, and I know there's photos of it, you can look up, but when he was staying in the Palmer prison, they had murals and stuff all over the walls in that, in there, and those were all painted by him. All the artwork you see around that prison was all done by him over the time that he's been in there.

My understanding is that he had a very cushy time in prison because he not only was he getting less security area, but he also was getting pretty good treatment from people at the top of the prison, so the guards and stuff and all of that stuff made my ear, eyebrows sort of raise a bit, because I'm like, well, why is this guy getting such good treatment? when he's a guy, the murderer at the end of the day.

Yeah, they're surrounded by murderers. Yeah, I think that definitely has something to do with it. If I was you, I wanted to get in touch with someone in prison, and they didn't respond. I would write the letter again. I'd start the letter off with,

I just put $50 on your books. It's a good idea. And that way, because I'm just telling, it doesn't matter, it's $25 bucks. Give them your phone number, your email address,

your return address, the only thing he's going to get it off the front of the card. Give him a pre, what you can't do, you can't send them, a pre-stamped envelope. You can't do that because the stamp is considered contraband. Oh, really?

The stamps are used as money. Currency, yeah, I guess that makes sense. So you can type your whole thing out, like make it as easy as possible. If you give him 25 bucks on his books, he's going to see the 25 bucks. And if you start the letter with, I just put 25 bucks on your books. You're like, this is the guy. And in his mind, he's going to think, I owe this guy. Right.

Because he put the money on. maybe he reaches out and maybe he says hey if you put $50 on my books I'll do it because the truth is $100 in total to an inmate is like you're giving him $1,000 yeah I've had people say that a similar situation it's not a lot and I do I do think that's probably not probably that'll be what I do the way I went about writing him the first letter was more of like very much lack lacklester I had been looking into the case maybe for only about six months at that point. So I didn't know how long I was going to be going down the rabbit hole. He also, because of all the stories that he's told, he is probably a pathological lie. Oh yeah. No, I, so I know enough people who have spoken to him,

including those two guards. And he is a tall-tail spinner. He can, he can, yeah. Because you have to think that in prison, there's tons of guys that have mental problems and there's tons of guys that are pathological liars and you could have a conversation with them one time and realize and think this is a great guy and then have the same conversation a week later and he's altered it and then having the same conversation a week later and realize oh this is nothing like you told me the first time right and that's that's the experience I've had when I talked to the prison guards versus people he was in jail with yeah they all tell a similar story but there's always details that have been changed. There's always things that are off. And it always makes me go, I've never trusted

anything he said. So I was like, but it's getting the interview to me is important because it gives me the ability to ask questions that other people just haven't. Well, what I would do is get the Freedom of Information Act first and the transcripts of the sentence. Very good point. So at his arraignments, you're going to have transcripts. At his, at his plea, you're going to have sentencing. You're going to have transcripts. And at his sentencing, you're going to have to, he may spoken at his sentence. Right. The U.S. attorney, or sorry, the district attorney most likely spoke and said all kinds of stuff. Yeah, that actually would make sense. And if you get the discovery, it's probably not a lot of discovery, but you could at least read it and see what the official version is.

And that way when you went, you go in, you have a base, kind of a baseline for what's happening. Then you can ask him about this. And he may lie to you and say this. But you've also know what the other accounts are. Yeah, but you told Jim. me some of the right yeah and by the way pathological liars males by the way most male pathological liars defense mechanism is to get angry so about 90% of them will will get offended and angry at you right who you do you don't fucking and they'll get it because that's their defense mechanism to be able to get so angry that they say this is we're over and the truth is you're really not angry yeah you're just this is your way of getting out of being caught in multiple versions

for women it's crying oh that makes sense, yeah. They, I know what you're saying. And then they walk off. Yeah. But so you have to understand that you have to be able to push up to that point. Well, it's, it's basically trying to make the other person as uncomfortable as possible.

Right. And then they want to be able to be offended and walk away. Right. Yeah. Because they want to get out of it. How do I get out of it? How do I get out? I'm going to get angry and stomp off.

But, but at least. Well, I won't read these just because I don't want to get your guys's channel in trouble. But those are the quotes from. Joe Vogler from over the years and his political stuff. That, uh, those are from over the years, but I always think people find those funny because they, they're colorful. You can, you can read them and they'll be on Patreon. Oh, perfect.

Okay. The problem with him, too, is there's just not a lot recorded of them because the time in which he's doing this all is the 70s, the 80s, and Alaska of all places where it's not like everybody and their mother has a camera, even back then. Right. It's like plenty of camcorders in the 70s and 80s that could have been used, but not many of them that financially people can afford. This is the photo I have,

photos I've got here of him, but this is when he was running for office in one of the elections, I think I had a year on here. You can see this is candidate writing. These are from an archivist who I found these with. Show your camera? Oh, yeah. There's that one there.

And then this one, he's actually with another gentleman there with Donald E. Wright, but this is a good photo of him as well. Looks like a dig site, right? Yeah, it looks like he's got a cat behind him or something along those lines. He was famous. I didn't talk about that, but he had a whole standoff with the feds back in the day because they stopped him while he was driving a cat through federal land. They landed helicopters on him and shit and tried to make him sort of turn the vehicle in, and he refused to move it, it sit out there, went to federal, took him to court and stuff over it, went all the way to the

Supreme Court, which is why he has in that clip, he's like, I'd rather be tried in a whorehouse with a madam as a judge. You'd get more justice. And he's talking about the Supreme Court in that context. Like, did you win the case? No, no, no, no. But that's the case that made all of the, like, that's what drove him to create the petition for independence, because he said, listen, at the federal government owns 60% of the state and I can't drive a piece of machinery over that land then the Fed basically is decided they just own this all like they're just going to take it and he was mining and so his position was like if I can't drive my vehicles to get to my mines then how am I going to make money like it's kind of defeats the whole thing but I think that kind of closes that one out

the the other ones I brought a couple other stories with me notes wise I brought one that I thought you might find interesting, which is another lesser known one. The people in prison system over there built a bomb through the phone system in the prison, and then it's known as the Alaska mail bombings. Hey, you guys, if you like the video, do me a favor, hit the subscribe button, hit the bell so you get notified of videos like this. Also, we're going to leave all of Layton's social media links in the description box, as well as his ex and YouTube.

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