Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - What Really Happens Inside Prison...

Episode Date: November 10, 2022

Matt and James talk about life inside the prison as a correctional officer.

When we come in, they tell us, listen, it's a game. They break the rules, and we catch them. They're yelling at each other. Oh, in your face, motherfucker. I got your bitch. I'm in your fucking house now. Yeah, uh, uh, uh. Face and, oh, I've seen guys fight.

I didn't, like, pull out a pen and go ahead and stab the other guy. I was in the county jail and I saw this. Uh-huh. Hey, this is Matt Cox. And I'm going to be doing an interview with James or Jim Michaels, and he is a correctional officer. He's also an author, and we're going to go ahead and get in the interview. By the way, it's funny because I actually am semi-prepared. And yet I have a guy that just gave me a lecture in the comments that was like, bro, you got to get better prepared, man.

You know, you have to stop saying. And I also gave me a lecture on saying, uh, and um, and I'm not, I don't even think. I think I'd do it that badly, but, or that much. But anyway, so how long have you been, well, well, first of all, where were you, where were you born? I was born in Michigan, the metro Detroit area. So not Detroit exactly about 20 miles west of it. Okay.

I mean, where was it? So this is like a suburb or is it own, its own? Yeah, yeah, it was a suburb. Okay. It was called a Livonia. And you went to school there. Did you graduate high school there? Yep, graduated.

And went to college for criminal justice. And around that time, a friend of mine had recommended the Department of Corrections. So I looked into it. They required a certain amount of credits that I had. And I wanted to be a police officer. That was my goal. so I figured this would at least be a stepping stone, possibly a career for me. Right. How long have you been a CEO?

Seven years. Okay. So, I mean. And because I have to, because I have to disclaim this, I'm not a spokesperson for the Department of Corrections. So whatever opinions I may have does not reflect their opinion. Just a disclaimer I have to put out there. Okay. Um, but I mean, so you started in the, you said you wanted to be a police officer, but you ended up being a correctional officer. And for seven years, are you still thinking about being a police officer or you think this is pretty much it? Um, after a few years with the department and kind of, you know, you've seen all those news stories about the police shootings and whatnot. And me personally, I didn't want to. I didn't want to. You know, you know, you've seen all those news stories about the police shootings and whatnot. And me personally, I didn't want to. And, I've put myself into that situation where I may or may not have to use a gun. So personally,

I figured that being with, you know, being a corrections officer was safer than being a police officer. That doesn't seem right at all. But I mean, but I know that there's not, you know, that much violence against, you know, congressional officers in general. I mean, at least not in the feds. I don't know about, about state prison, but, you know, in the feds, there's not usually, that much that often do they get you know injured as opposed to being a police officer well one of the advantages of being a corrections officer is that you know you come to know the inmates you know they're there for a while you're there for a while so you eventually kind of pick up what you know they pick up what i'm about i pick up what they're about so there's that kind of that rapport building that i don't

know if they i can't speak for police officers but i feel like that may be as possibly lacking right well yeah because I guess every every situation is completely different you don't know the individual right I mean you saw probably you know a lot of same CEOs over and over so you kind of knew what to expect from them right and then they knew what you were about so it was that you know I was like okay so you just kind of knew what your situation was going to be when they walked in just like I knew what my situation would be depending on where I work, you know, I'll see certain inmates. I'll be like, okay, you know, this guy, he does this every day or he does that every day. So it becomes, you know, it becomes a routine. And I think

that's the big advantage of being in corrections as the kind of just routine. So what does it take, like, what are the requirements to be a correctional officer? Um, I can't, I don't remember exactly. Um, Because I know that, you know, things have changed, but you had to pass a physical test, take the academy. It's an eight-week-long academy. And then I think they still, then they'll take you to another. So after the eight weeks, you're graduated, and then they'll take you to, at least this is what happened when I started. Things changed, especially with COVID. And then we went to another facility where, you know, they really kind of give.

us the more rundown they gave us a tour and then of the prison we'd be working at i really i'm sorry i was going to say i remember the tours when we we we would you know they'd walk 15 or 20 um you know uh i don't know what you want to call them freshmen or you know newbies or whatever they'd walk them in and they you know they're looking around they wouldn't they would be in plain clothes and they would kind of walk them around uh well no sometimes they were dressed out i think i'm going to say most time they weren't though but yeah they would walk them around you could just see like you do you could oh you could even look at them and tell who was going to be an asshole who was going to be okay you know like some of them were just

they looked you know they looked scared like someone would look scared and some of them were looking like you know tough and but yeah i remember them walking around and we were just like oh my god these fucking guys this is this is going to be the new group right right my first day my first day as um as a rookie i was nervous but then i'm sitting in the unit and i'm just watching the guys kind of go about their business and i'm like okay because you see i mean you see in like prison documentaries and whatnot they go to like the absolute worst prisons in the world they make everything sound worse than it really is, you know, like, they'll say, you know, it will say, in this prison.

Yeah. Anything can be used as currency from candy bars to hygiene, even contraband. And then you kind of walk in, they'll be like, three soups for, for, you know, a stick of sausage. Yeah. Yeah, it's not, it's funny because, I mean, I'm not saying, you know, things pop off. But, I mean, if there's just a ton of just non, you know, it's not that there's just not that much anxiety all the time. You get into a routine and you go to the rec yard and you run or you walk and you come back and, you know, you go to lunch or you make a soup or you, you know what I mean?

They do make it seem like you're just constantly on edge and guys are being attacked left and right. And I'm not saying that doesn't happen. But I always think of it like this. I'm always like, it's just like a really tough. high school. Yeah. Only, you know, and you get your group of guys and your buddies and you get into your routine. And, you know, if you're not, if you're not borrowing money from people or gambling or,

you know, being disrespectful, I mean, you just don't have that much to worry about. Right. And I can, I get what you're saying. Similarity, I would say between us is that, you know, you start off very nervous, then you just kind of get used to it. Like, you're aware things can happen. But, you know, like, we don't sit there and we're just scared, like, okay, you know, are they fighting? Are they fighting? Are they fighting? No, like, I can sit there with my partner and we'll talk about the weather or a movie or, you know, what we're going to do on vacation. And then all of a sudden, you know, you'll hear like a radio call for a fight or you'll hear something, you know. And it's just, it's almost like a switch that turns on. And all of a sudden, you're in game mode, and it's time to go.

It's time to handle this. So what, so how long, so you went through the course, then they assigned you a prison. Do you have like, is there a, um, do you have like a buddy system or something? They don't just stick you into a cell block and say, here, these, here's 150 guys you have to watch. No, uh, you shadow somebody for a little while. What's, is that nine, is that like two, three months or? Um, yeah. Again, I don't know what's changed in that time.

When I started, I believe it was, man, maybe four weeks or so, maybe four or six weeks. Oh, okay. I was thinking that probably a few months. Well, your probationary status goes for a year. Right. But, I mean, I'm not worried about probation. I'm worried about how long, when do I have to be in the unit? watching 200 guys or 300 guys because in in Coleman and this was at the at the medium and the

low you know they have each building's made up of of four I don't know what you you would call in the state but they're like four units or pods you know and and in those of course they might have 150 guys or 180 guys and they've got two man and three man cells and in the medium they have doors you know and you have cells and you have a toilet and a sink in there and in the in the low you have like a cubicle they're like a five foot wall but there's no doors and everybody shares a bathroom um but still you've got you used to have when I first started there was one CO for every unit so every building had at least four guards in it then there were cutbacks and there was this and that then it became one CO for every two units now yeah so you

Right. So you're sitting over here and guys would walk and go, they go, where's the CEO? Oh, he's over. He's next door. So then you've got to walk through this long hallway, go to the other. You got to find the go. I mean, you got to find the CEO. You literally, you could go without actually, and this is something that was different. Guys that would go to the state and come to the feds, they would say, you have almost no staff interaction. Like literally you could go months without ever talking to a staff. officer or really you could you could see one like you might see them walking around in the distance but you never really they never really stop you they never bother you you're on a routine the doors open they walk out they'll open a door and walk away like they don't very little interaction and then a buddy of mine who said now it because of COVID they he said it's even worse he said that they basically came in and they they kind of offered retirement to a whole bunch of senior correctional officers and then they were giving like early retirement to some of them and he said that that the most senior officer on the compound had 18 months i wanted to let you guys know that i

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Thank you very much for watching the video. Had been around 18 months. He goes, that's the most senior officer. And, you know, like you, listen, he was telling me, he said, look, he said, they, he was like, it's nothing like when I was there. He said, they did a sweep and found, like, 100 cell phones.

They found, you know, all kinds of different weapons he said that a guy was making hooch he had climbed up in the drop ceiling in the bathrooms and it's drywall but and then literally there's a there's a space this big he said the guy had gotten through the I mean you know it's it's where the the vent is and he'd gotten through there and he was making hooch and they just could not figure out for months now they didn't understand like where where is this this alcohol coming from. But first of all, you know, there's no sugar on the compound. So you have to steal the sugar or you have to melt down like, you know, like candy or something, jelly candy or

they have these different candies. Some will have sugar. Anyway, he ends up falling through the driveway in the bathroom and hurts himself. So he broke his leg or something. And so they come in and he's laying there there. Because otherwise, I'm sure he would have scurried away. But they find him there he's broken his leg and he's they're like there's and then he had gallons and gallons and gallons of a of hoot but yeah and my buddy was telling me he said the problem is he said the new COs don't have enough experience to understand what's happening you know what I'm saying like they've been there six months or a year they're not like the older guys who'd been there 20 years they'd seen everything they would be like okay check this check this check this is one of these

four places or three places the new guys have no clue right i mean you got out at a at the perfect time yeah i got lucky because covid i mean you know nobody expected something like that right i mean i mean i can't get into you know what exactly it changed and stuff but you know it was scary you know it was very scary um you know i knew a lot of people that got sick um we recently just had it about a month ago on my family and yeah it was something just kind of walking in there you know wearing masks and just you know it's it's so hard to maintain the regulations that the CDC came up with you know like I mean out in the street in prison I mean we're all around each other all day, you know, so it's, it's difficult, you know, 150 guys living in, or 180 in the, in the low, living in a big room, you know, you already have staff infection. You have any, if one guy gets sick, it's just, next thing you know, it's everybody's sick. Right. And, and I was washing

my hands. I'll, I'll picture I wash my hand 40, 50 times a day. Because, you know, you use the computers, you grab the doorknobs. You use, you know, just, you're, you're, you're, you're, using everything. You just can't help but get sick. I mean, and so COVID, that's why they let out so many, they were letting out so many guys. Guys are in their 50s and 60 years old. And they're like, yeah, look, he'll, he gets COVID. He may die. So they'll put him on an ankle monitor and saying, go, go home. You know what's funny about that is, you know, COVID was so weird. Like, I, you know, I've seen a lot of guys in their 70s and 80s catch COVID and you know personally I thought oh man you know nice knowing you and then they come back two weeks later and they're fine right well you know

it's funny I got it so I got it and my girlfriend got it I was in bed for a week every time I If I got up and would go to the bathroom and go get something to drink, I would have to lay back down because I felt like I'd just run three miles. She laid in bed for two days and was like, yeah, I'm done with this. I can't lay in bed anymore. I'm just not, I'm okay. I'm not that big of a deal. I've had a cold before. And we had the exact same strain because I gave it to her.

Right. She went fishing and changed the, change the brakes on her dad's car. I mean, you know, because that's just who she is. But, yeah, while she was sick, but, I mean, it hits everybody different. I know a guy that was in great shape got COVID and he died. And, you know, I know other people that I thought, this dude's done. Like, he's in horrible shape. And he was perfectly fine.

Like, he got it. He was sick for like four or five days and said he coughed for another week or felt achy for another week. And he's fine. It affected our family differently. All my kids have it about the same. each had like a 24-hour fever, a cough. And then, you know, the cough lasts a few days. And they were fine, you know. My wife got really sick for the first two days. I mean, she had, you know, the fatigue, the dizziness, burning throat, the cop. I was like the last one to get it. I had one bad

day. I had, you know, like I started coughing one evening. I was like, oh, well, my turn. and the next day I had like a horrible headache for four hours then I had um chills after that for about three hours and then I just had the cough that starts to subside and then a few days later my taste and smell fluctuated right which that was the one I was dreading because I'm always so why it's a very good cook so you know I was like I like to be able to smell and taste right well so or were a lot of people in prison getting sick or um cases have dropped you know i mean it definitely fluctuated you know i mean obviously um because you have so much asymptomatic people it's it's hard to keep track of it right you know i mean i know they really you know during those

two years i'm not just saying it because i work from i know they really you know try to take every caution they could. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's a balancing act between being, you know, just unsafe, creating an unsafe environment and then obviously just creating an environment where, you know, there's just so much interaction. There's just nothing you can do. Right. Right. I know Coleman at one point, they were actually putting guys out in the rec yard. Like they would have like a good building and a bad building. And then they were started, they would get guys and they would have them go to the rec center. and then they would but the problem is that they would then have this building go into the chow hall and then immediately afterwards the good the people that that weren't positive for COVID they would go to the chow hall it's like well now we're in the chow hall touching things and doing this and you know it's it's it's it's just it's just there's so many it you know it's just like i said it's just not it's just almost impossible to to slow that you know to stop it or slow it down or be safe in that kind of environment um so what what what what what types of institutions or prisons have you worked at? Like, what levels? You told me about the different levels? Yeah. You know, one, two,

four, and five. What does that mean? I've never dealt with five. That's like top maximum security. And those guys are, you know, that's like the guys at the pen for you. Right. You know, then four is also max. Two is like a medium, then one's minimum.

there okay there's no one what you're saying one is like a camp there's no no um one is like um i feel like you skip something pole barns like what and pole barns what is that like um buildings with like hallways and cubes you know we got cubes okay and then the other level is it's like more of a dormitory style with, you know, your own room, um, one bunkey or Selly, however, whichever vernacular. I always said Selly. I always said Selly. Um, all right. So what, I mean, what's, what's a normal day like? I mean, for me, it's most days, thankfully, are,

going to work you know you meet your partner um you know you do rounds check for contraband i mean it's all standard stuff you know you just kind of followed by the uh the schedule of the day um they go to chow they go to yard they go to callouts um you know you've authorized them to leave you know and i mean it's really it's most days thankfully are uneventful you know and i think that's a good thing i mean you know right yeah it's low it can be monotonous but you know it's better than having to respond to something you know having to respond to something violent where you know somebody got hurt or you know staff person got hurt or whatever right i mean yeah i don't i don't look for excited when I'm in there.

Yeah, I've talked to a couple of CEOs that, like, like, they would rather work at the pen because they, they were like, there's always something happening. Mm-hmm. I was like, you know, to me, I'm, I wouldn't want to be anything to be happening. You know what I'm saying? No thanks. Right. I mean, it's different personalities that work there, you know, everybody's different.

Some really, you know, they, you know, for them, it's like a thrill, you know, and they like to kind of, you know, being those situations where you got to think on your feet and you got to, you know, figure this out, maybe there's somebody that you have to, you know, get physical with and stuff, you know, just, I think this is more the confrontational personality, you know. Right. Yeah, I'm more passive. If something happens, I'm going to respond to it, you know. Yeah, there's, yeah, you could always tell that there were, there are the CEOs that were just like, you know,

this is just a job you know what I mean like like I just want to come here do my eight hours go home get paid I would rather you know I don't want anything to happen like I just everybody just behave and that's it and then you had the other COs who were like it was like their mission to make everybody's life as miserable as possible to you know to for the smallest infraction shake you down or give you a hard time and talk to you like you're a dog and just you know those were the guys it was just like you know you just avoid them um but yeah there was there were there were a couple guys like that uh or a couple there was there was multiple guys like that it was so funny too because i had a guy i had a ceo one time i'd walked up you know you're not

supposed to go into different units right and i'd walked up to the you to this unit looking for my buddy and i went and i looked in the window but i didn't touch the the you know the the the the door had a window on it. I didn't touch it. I just went and I went up, but I just put my hand like this, but I didn't actually touch the window. If anything, I might have touched the metal, but I went and I kind of looked and I leaned back and the CEO was inside because I wanted to see if the CO is there before I tried to go in. And I was like, oh, turned around. He comes bolting out. You inmate, get over here. And I was like, yes, sir. And I was actually in the drug program at the time. And you couldn't break any rules. And he,

He, he's like, I want you to clean this window. And I was like, okay, where's the, where the cleaning supplies? Go, you get the, what do they call him? Orderly. Get the head orally. I was like, okay, can I go in the unit? So I have this whole thing where I'm doing this whole, you know, absolutely. Yes, sir.

No problem. No problem. He wanted me to buck so bad. He was desperate for me to say anything. anything negative. And I was just like, yes, sir, no, sir, you know, and you do this and you touch that window. And that's my, that's my window.

I said, you're absolutely right. I don't know what I was thinking. You're going to clean this. I said, listen, nobody's more upset about it than me. I said, I assure you it was absolutely. I was out of character for me. And I apologize. I personally don't think I actually touched the window, but I hear you that if there's

some fingerprints that they may be mine, let me get the orderly. I mean, he, you know, he didn't know what to do. When I finally was leaving, he actually stopped. He goes, I don't want to hear you walking around telling everybody I'm an asshole. I said, no. You are, you right? And I mean, he was desperate for me to argue with. I was like, nope, I'm not going to do it.

If that had been me, say, you know, I'm working where I'm working, I'm seeing you looking through the window. I may have, like, leaned over the desk so you could see me. Or I was, like, I would have, like, stepped in front of you, like through the window and just gone, like, what's up? Like, have a good day. Oh, no, this guy. They have, you know, all the, all the COs get nicknames. So, I mean, we've got a guy named sniper or we have, sorry, I don't know if he's still there.

We had a guy named sniper. I think he was a sniper in like the military. They had a guy named Family Guy who I shit you not. He looked exactly like Family Guy. Um, you know, and they all, they, we the guy, uh, CEO called Keep It Real because he would, he talked to you. As soon as you started, you know, somebody would say, no, I, I didn't do that. Come on, you ain't keeping it real. Come on. Keep it real, man. And so he got it the name, nickname, keep it real. Um, do you have a nickname? Um, Mike, because of my last name. Yeah, because Michael, everybody says, Mike. We had a got, listen, what's so. funny is when the COs would call the inmates by their nickname

instead of saying like Johnson get over here they'd go porn star come here and I'd be like did that did he just fucking call that guy did he call porn star porn star are you serious and they would do it all the time

I mean I mean definitely I mean prisoners are not the most politically correct people so you know you got to choose which, you know, if you're going to go by nicknames, you got to really be a little careful what you might say. Yeah, I was a love Gordo. There's been a couple of times where, like, I'll say, like,

you know, if I'm somewhere where there's a lot of, like, a lot of work, it's like the child hall or something, you know, I'll say to somebody, hey, is Johnson here? They're like, who? Johnson. Is he here? Johnson. Oh, Alabama.

Is Alabama here? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's in the back. I'm like, dude, dude, you've known him for years. I don't know this dude's name. I don't know. You know how many pookies I know? Right.

You know, there's pookies, Alabama, there's ATL, there was, I always love the, there would be, the fat guys are always named like Gordo. Bald guys are like, what do they call them? Malone or whatever bald is. What was the other one? Oh, I know the black guys will be like, they'll have him black man. Black man. What's your name? Black man.

I don't know if I can do say that. It's all right. No, no. Let me see your ID. Yeah. Mip. Guy used to always love it when, you know, the CEO would be in the unit and the inmates would call and say, you know, hey, hey, hey, Cox, Cox. I always ended up with Cox.

And Cox, Cox, and I go, yeah, what's up? they go, yo, uh, get, you know, Alabama and I'd go, what does he look like? Uh, he's a black guy. Okay, bro, with dreads. All right. You're not, okay. What's, he got gold. He got gold.

Listen, man. That's every, that's 90% of the black guys in the unit. Dreads, gold, black. What do you help me out here. He got shot with an AK4 to seven. He got, oh, you know, now I know. Yeah, it's, uh, the nicknames. They're hilarious.

Right. but uh so what so you've been doing it seven years but i mean i know that you started writing because we you and i talked like it was a year or so ago maybe two yeah you said i think it was like year i feel like it was probably two years ago that we probably talked but i feel like but i make it be wrong um but you had written uh you've written a um i you know brum i I want to say urban novel, but it's not, I mean, it's a, you've written a fiction novel about a character that grew up like in a bad neighborhood. Is that correct? Right. And we talked about that. So why did you start writing that? That kind of has some is, it kind of aligns with

your story, your personal story, doesn't it? A little bit? No, not my personal story. It was actually kind of like a mix of a lot of other guys to stories um so i i've always been an avid reader and you know i was kind of you know i was at my job and i was like i was going through a period where i was trying to figure out like new challenges for myself you know just kind of filled myself as a person and um i decided you know why don't i write a book you know that was something cool to do and the idea came to me um because originally it was supposed to be it was going to be a prison novel right and the character was going to be somebody who just got mixed up in in the street life goes to jail um you know he the atmosphere gets to him but then it gets to a point where he finds a

redemption um but you know i also knew about guys like i knew about guys like uh like yourself um michael francis if you know if you've heard of him um larry lawton you know just these guys who are you know like like yourself like you know bright guys a lot of potential and they just kind of you know just used it for the wrong purposes and then they you know they got caught and then they got out and now they use it to go down a different road. So that's what felt like the message

I wanted to send to people because you know, and also like I've talked to some guys you know, I have conversation with these guys. There's a lot of guys in prison that are very bright and you wonder like, man, like you know, I mean, you could be like you know, you could be running your own business

somewhere. And so that's what my character represents is that misused potential, if that makes sense. Right. And then, so I started writing his story, and I'm what they call a pancer. So I have no idea what's going to happen in the next step of the book. So I'm writing the book, and I realize that it's going to be a long one. So I decided to break it up, and then I had other ideas start to come to me.

so you know i went i published my first book and then i started working on a second book which was actually um a whole different story you know same character i'm sorry is it the same character different character yeah that one's more of a um it's a lot i mean you know crime thrill yes it's it's like a mafia thriller romance um you know action suspense you know just kind of a little bit of everything noir um and you're are you self publishing these or did you did you try and go like how did you what type of a publishing route did you take i tried to go traditional um the first time around you know i at this point i'm like a total novice i have a manuscript i'm throwing it around it's not even edited i'm throwing

around to all these different agents and nobody's picking it up so you know a year goes by and i realized okay i'm i'm really wasting my time here like i want to get this thing out here now i have others at that point i was working on my second book and i was like okay let's let's just make this happen let's get this published so i went on amazon and um you know i learned the step-by-step process it was definitely a learning experience a lot of trial and error right and you know but now i've got you know two books published on it was on um did are you narrate it do you have it on audible no not yet um that's definitely in the future you know i know that's a very popular thing nowadays um especially because you know we're entering

you know our society is more and more busy you know it's hard to find time to kind of just sit down and read yeah i i'm like i actually have a uh a guy um i can give you his phone number and he he did he almost all of my books and he just you know we just split the revenue like i didn't have to do anything i certainly don't think it it takes away from any sales from my printed book but he did all of the you know all the narration put it up for me everything and uh you know it doesn't generate a ton of money but it's it's it probably $350, $400, you know, a month. And, of course, he gets half of that. So, which is, you know, which is great. Like you get a check for $180 or, you know,

$150 or $2.10 or whatever. Like that's, that's money that I wouldn't have gotten. And I didn't have to do anything. Right. Uh, it's the residual income. Right. Exactly. And then of course, now, you know, when you someone pulls up your book, they, they do have that option because let's face it, a lot of people is just not going to read. And also you can do things on Audible where they actually, you can pay for them to actually do like advertising for you. We've done that a few times. But, yeah, it's, I mean, it's definitely something I would look at it, especially since it doesn't cost anything. Right.

It's like, I was going to say, I was contacted by this company called Jelly Smack. And, yeah, it sounds silly. um but actually i was told about jelly smack and then i was also contacted by them like i just never really looked into it and what they do is they take your if you're a youtube or they take your existing content and they cut it up for facebook and then they they they will make a channel for you and like if you don't already have an existing you know um facebook page they'll sorry they'll make a page for you and then they start putting it out on on uh facebook for you like i don't to do anything. It's already available and I don't have to do anything. And then if it works out,

they'll send you a check on the other influencer that I talked to or YouTube or whatever you want to call. She said, look, she had a meeting. They cut her stuff up. They came back. They said, we can do it. Next thing you know, she said a month later, they're cutting me checks. She said, I don't have to do anything. I had like one meeting and a phone call. She's like, that's it. so it's the same thing with that audible like if you already got two books well that's income you're probably missing by not making a phone call yeah the problem is a lot of these guys they else you know you got two the guys that want the money up front and then you have guys that say look I'll I'll do it and we'll just split it right pay up front for this guy for me

to pay up front it would probably be thousands and thousands of dollars you know I was like I just don't have that i'm just not gonna i don't have that to invest in order to make that money back if i make that money back over the course of a year or two i mean i'm not i'm not doing it and i didn't really think much of the idea anyway right and the next thing you know i'm getting i said yeah go ahead and do it next thing you know i'm getting checks being cut you know that's sort of what um that's actually why i want to go with traditional publishing at first was because you know obviously they take a cut of the proceeds but you know they do a lot of the work that you don't know how to do so you can focus on um you know what you're

good at right and they can take care of the rest it's probably i get like 85 percent i believe um here's the thing though i've had i have had a traditional book published by sky horse publishing i mean it was in it was in barns and nobles you know it's the we option like the rife rights to the story the whole thing and it keeps being optioned and it sells and honestly like once i think it's like once every six months or something i get a check from them other than the initial advance that i got in in prison which was nothing there's like 3 500 bucks or was it was it 2 500 bucks i think it was 3 500 dollars anyway um which was a huge amount of money in prison right right i was about to say yeah which here's you know fortune yeah it was a fortune um other than that honestly

i get checks from them now every let's say every six months for 150 200 bucks like i've overall i've made way more money self-publishing with amazon than i ever did you know with that going traditional with um sky horse right and and that's the thing is like you know with um with amazon with self-publishing you know you do learn there's definitely a lot of more skill building that comes in the play i mean you know like this right here i never would thought i'd be doing um you know podcasts i didn't happen i thought i could just you know my plan was to give it to the company and they'll do all the promotion and i was getting a nice check every now and then but you know that you know but now i do it on my own and

And, you know, you have to get more creative. You have to wake up early. And you got to, you know, you have to put on a lot of hats. Yeah. You know. Well, you know. Like I woke up at 3 o'clock this morning. And I was like, ooh, head start on the day.

Right. Well, yeah, you know, and you've got your day job too. Right. You know what I'm saying? It's not like you're relying on this for income. I mean, luckily, I don't rely on. You know, I basically get my insurance car insurance and my my car payment car insurance and, you know, maybe gas money for the amount of money my books come in. Like I certainly couldn't live on that.

But then I don't probably, I don't also don't do anything. Like I don't push my book. I don't push anything. Like people are buying it just because they know me and they see me on, on, I mean on, they see me on YouTube. So periodically, you know, I sell several books a day and that's it. but it's not certainly not because they're advertising or me ever i really only really never even really talk about my book really that i can really think of like a not in years so i actually have three of your books i i i know that's because you saw me on youtube right

it's like me selling paintings like if i sold paintings based on my effort to sell paintings i would sell nothing. But people basically, they watch the YouTube stuff. They like me and they go and they see the paintings. As a result of the exposure, they see those paintings. If I didn't have YouTube, I probably wouldn't be selling any paintings. Not because I'm not any good at it, but there's no other than YouTube, there's just no real effort on my part to do anything. I would have to really start advertising or doing something. I would have to work avenues. I just don't work. If you're interested in a painting, I'm going to leave my contact information in the description beneath the video back to the video um so are you going to you writing any

additional books or yes i actually have so um remember we're talking earlier how my original plan was for my book to be a prison thriller um i actually have a third book coming out in on august 12 so depending when this airs um may be available already um but that actually is that's the sequel to my first book, Ice Rising, is called Ice Box. And that actually is a prison thriller. Okay. I mean, you know, it's, it's set in the early 90s in a prison that doesn't exist in California. So I'm not stepping on too many toes where I'm at.

And then I'm actually working on a collection of short stories right now. So that's my fourth word. so why not why do you why fiction why not write nonfiction i'm until i'm a good storyteller right but i mean i i but i mean i it's that's the whole thing i i i was actually talking to a guy that i'm i'm gonna have come on you know i have another channel and i was going to have him come on and do the other channel and we were talking and and i was saying to him he'd be good at it because he is a good storyteller like even though the story's pretty complicated he can tell it i know guys that can't tell a story at all like it's like you have a very simple case

and they cannot tell their their their crime story or their story in general even what happened but if you're a good storyteller like i can tell you know the guy won yeah okay i tell Juan's story better than Juan does. I tell I tell Zach's story better than Zach tells it. And you know, they're getting better. Like Juan actually did a really good job. He did an interview on my channel and he did a great job like on the other channel. The first time when he did it on my channel, he was horrible. He went on concrete. Same thing. Still didn't do it. But he's told it so many times over that next year or so he said i've told it so many times now he when he went upstairs or upstairs my i've a studio upstairs when he went upstairs and did it upstairs he did a great job

there's the same thing with bozziak boziac just did a did one too he did an amazing job what i'm saying is you know you're you're you make it sound like you have to be telling fiction to tell a good story but maybe you can you know you hear a you look into a real story and you're able to tell it because the person that actually live that story has a very hard time actually being able to tell their story you know most people simply don't see themselves the way they really are and a lot of people can't even tell you their own story or their own crime case or a story They can't do it. Like they get emotional about it.

They start going on and on about things that are irrelevant. Then things that are super relevant. They, they breeze through. Oh, yeah, yeah. And this guy got caught and then he cooperated. He wore a wire. And then that's how they got me. It's like, okay, you just spent 20 minutes talking about this other thing that's irrelevant.

And you just breeze through the crux of how you got caught like that. So, I mean, a good story. teller would know. I have to play that up. I have to really, really look into that. I have to, you know, I have to really craft that part of the story and look into it and tell it and make it exciting. Right. So the only reason I say that is that those, those true crime stories are easier to get turned into documentaries and films than fiction stories. Right. You bring up an interesting point because, I mean, obviously, you know, you hear about all these true stories like, you know, catch me if you can wolf of wall street um casino american gangster american hustler

but obviously you know you get like i mean this case we're talking about you know the storytelling through a movie you know it's just made so much like so much even more epic right right yeah i mean i'm sure that if frank lucas sat down and told his story it would take all of him 20 minutes and you'd be bored to death but you know you give it to So, you know, someone like, you know, Martin Scorsese or something, he tells a story it's three hours long and you're, you're desperate for it not to end. Let's have them play. Let's have Duns of Washington play. Right. Yeah. Same story. Same story. Yeah, I mean, I mean, I would, not that you need my advice or anything. I'm just curious to know. I mean, because the first few books that I wrote were, were fiction books.

You know, that was when I was out. I like, I wrote them, put them in a drawer. never tried to pop never did anything was just something to do you know because fraud wasn't really like a full-time job so i had plenty of time on my hands but um whatever happens huh whatever happened to those you know one was called the associates uh i actually have a copy of it somewhere i actually had both one was the associates and one was um and it was kind of like a john grisham novel and the other one was come on that oh it's called the acquisition of cuba and it was about a private military like black blackwater what is blackwater now they changed their name right uh i believe they did yeah well anyway like it was like a blackwater style company that basically invades cuba and takes over cuba um

so you know it was just there was just i i just you know i just you know It was something to kind of, something, ideas that I had, and I, you know, wrote a 300-page book on it and typed it out and then never did anything with them. You know, probably if I had more time on my hands, I'd probably give those to, you know, you can just hire somebody on, like, offer up. Not offer up. What am I saying? What is called, is it upwork? You know what I'm sorry? No, I don't know that.

You can go on like LinkedIn or I want to say it's Upwork. And you can post like a job offering for someone to edit your book. I had someone edit, It's Insanity, the Frank Amadeo story. Yeah, I have that one. I had somebody edit that for me. I think she charged like three or 400 bucks. You know, she was a stay-at-home mom. She had been a professional editor.

But now she had like two kids. and she did this on the side. She read the book over two days and made like three or four hundred dollars or whatever, you know, that was it. And she was like, she came back and caught a bunch of typos and little things and said, hey, you never, you need to clarify this or you said this twice or whatever. Caught a bunch of great stuff. And that was it. Wow. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's, it's, I definitely think it's upwork. Upwork. We got to check. We got to check. Upwork. Yeah, I'm blessed. have a buddy that it's my uh he has my books for fun yeah it's it's yep upwork

find the best people for your job right there upwork um yeah uh i was gonna say i could do that anyway i'm working on like i'm working on two books right now so or two stories right now one of them is this chip story which is taken forever because my buddy uh russini in prison's helping me with it and he's it's you know he he has to know every single detail and has to order this and we need these four articles and we need this and you got to order the transcripts for this and pull the docket with the saw my guy's just going on plus the phone clicks off every 15 minutes yeah yeah well and you can well look do you guys you guys have like an email system right yeah Yeah, you can email. We can email. But he does research. And, you know, my buddy Zach's story, I have a, I have someone who's actually helping me write up an outline for Zach's story. His story would be great. He's in, he's in jail right now. He can't, still can't manage to write his story. Like, you have nothing but time on your hands. I'll bet you're playing dominoes all day long or chess or whatever it is.

Maybe he's fighting his case. He's not fighting his case. He's eating, he's eating, he's eating honey buns and watching Jerry Springer of reruns. You know what these guys do. I, you know, they play chess. Listen, probably the worst thing I've ever saw, one of the worst things in prison was watching these guys play chess. And they had turned a game of culture. and you know played by kings and the aristocracy

and they turned it into just like dice they're yelling at each other in your face motherfucker I got your bitch I'm in your fucking house now yeah what you're gonna do now it's like what are you doing I've seen that oh it's horrible oh man it's hilarious

especially when you're bored and you just kind of see two guys and you know they're not going to fight you know oh they're getting there each of his face and oh i've seen i've seen guys fight like getting like pull out a pin and go and stab the other guy i was in the county jail and i saw this uh puerto rican guy a stab a a black this black kitty was playing and you know they were both mouthing off like they always do but the next thing you know the porturican guy just grab the pin and just shot you know hit him a few times and the next thing you know there's blood And they're chasing each other around. And I was like, this is a game played by the upper crust of society.

This is a game of thought. This is a game of strategy. You guys are mouthing off like children. God. What pieces would you be on the board? What piece would I be? No, no, them. Huh?

What? I don't understand. What piece would have me on the board? The ponds. Oh, I don't know. The nights, they're cutting left and right. They're, they're, it's bad. It's bad.

There's just, it's just a horrible, horrible species. Um, uh, I think about it all the time. Listen, we were talking about, God, this stuff you, you must see too. Like I was just thinking, like, you know, they're draining. What's that? Is it Lake Mead or something where the water levels go? going down they keep finding all these bodies yeah like what's just a horrible species drowned in each other putting blocks on people throwing them out in the in the in the lakes i mean there's

coming bodies after bodies after bodies like what a horrible horrible species we are it's hard to be a humanist these days yeah yeah especially in prison i mean seeing the stuff you've probably seen these guys are just they're just maniacs yeah i mean i mean it's it's just it's it's it's interesting like the psychology behind everything i mean when we come in they tell us listen it's a game they break the rules and we catch them i was like okay and but you just watch these guys they come in and they just you know they do just the stupidest stuff like you know take like they'll steal more from the chow haul or they'll just like blatantly lie and it's like it's like but you're playing a game it's like this is your life you're

playing a game with your life yeah you know like i'm not going to knock somebody that comes to prison you know i mean everybody makes mistakes but like take it take your life seriously you don't get younger yeah you don't stay static you keep getting older yeah and you know it's sad when you get to the point where i was there long enough i'm starting to see guys come back oh i've done that I've seen guys leave, come back, do another bid, come back on violation, come back, get out, come back again on violation. I mean, 13 years, it was like, what are you doing? All right. We call it doing life on the installment plan.

And it gets to the point. Like, I try to reach some of the new guys. And it's like, you know, I see a bunch of lifers. I'll point him out, like, you know, that guy's been in prison since 82. And I know I know you've probably heard these conversations. It gets to the point where some of these guys where they talk about, they start talking about, you know, yeah, I was on first street, you know, the first street over by the McDonald's. Yeah, I know the McDonald's, yeah. Then a few years go by and they don't realize that that McDonald's is shut down.

Like, it's a Wendy's now. And then later on, they're talking about streets. like that that street's not even that's not even the street name anymore and then it just gets to the point this not about the prisons they've been at yeah you know yeah i was at you know such and such prison man they were straight food was pretty good no it wasn't straight the food wasn't good you know it's not like here it's like no it's all bad it's up it's it's bad everywhere you go it's like it's like you know it happens to us too it happens to like staff like like you walk in And it's like your, I think it's cut, I think your brain's adapting to it.

You just adapt to your environment, otherwise you go crazy. So, like, we walk in, we're just in there for hours and we'll, you know, we'll be like, you know, I have some guy, hey, what's on the, what's for lunch today? Pizza. Like, oh, that's good. No, it's not good. It's, it, it's still bad. It's still bad. And I'm getting mad at my co-workers because they'll be eating something to like, yeah, yeah, yeah, this could be bad.

better like dude like not for nothing more COs you know we have like vending machines we can use options you can bring food from home right you know yeah listen the vending machines and in visitation were better than anything we were eating in the inside but but to be honest you know the food wasn't it just wasn't as bad there were some meals that were just horrible but it was never as bad as I really thought like I really thought it was just going to be slot You know what I'm saying you know you see the movies that's what I thought I thought it was going to be like something that looked like oatmeal with some meat in it You know every meal and I got there and it you know it it wasn't that bad and periodically there was a decent meal and I I never felt like I you your guys complain all the time and you know it's like you know Honestly when you were robbing banks what did you think they were gonna feed you when you got caught you know I mean what you expect And so I I never I tried my best just to never complain about anything thing because, you know, I put myself here and, you know, I should have thought, you know, should have thought things through a little bit better, you know, so I wouldn't complain about it. But, you know, it's funny, too, because I'll hear guys say, guys will tell me about, you know,

being locked up and they're always like, you know, like, yeah, it's ridiculous, you know, they're locking these guys up and it's, you know, so unfair and this and that. And I was thinking, and it's always some guy who's like never been to prison because it's like wait a minute listen i've been to prison trust me these guys need to be locked up like you don't want these guys living in your neighborhood like i didn't want to get out and say hey i want to go i want to go move in next to so-and-so and this guy and you know that no no very few guys do i want to still be friends with and no the other guys i could really prefer never to see again and if i did see him again i would immediately think i'm being robbed because most of those

guys, and I say most, let's say 70, 80% of those guys are actively working on their next case. Right. You know, they're not in there trying to say, hey, I'm going to better myself. Or if they are, a lot of them, some of them are, but a lot of them are in there. They're just, they're delusional. Like they're not, they're thinking, I'm going to go out. I'm going to open a chain of restaurants and I'm going to, how are you going to do that? Like, like, you need to be reasonable. Could that happen? Yes, but be reasonable. It's just. just you know it's it's tough and and you know they're just you get in there and yeah you can get into a good routine and there are decent people in there but there's a lot of guys that you just don't

want you just don't want to be around right yeah I've we got all kinds you know I definitely don't want to go back right right no you no you don't you know you got to I think a lot of it has to do with, you know, self-work, you know, a lot of guys, you know, especially guys that with drug problems, you know, it's a self-worth issue, you know, they don't realize that they can, you know, be more than what they are, you know, they just kind of settle for it, especially in prison, you know, it's like, you know, um, you go to prison and it's like, okay, you know, well, I'm here now, you know, I mean, it is what it is, guess I guess I'll stop trying. Right. I'm a, I'm a prisoner now. I'm a convict. I'm a criminal. It's like,

I mean, you know, I mean, are you a criminal or did you just do something? You know, do you just have a felony? It depends. A lot of them don't want to turn it. They want to make it their life's, you know, mission. Like, I'm going to get out and they want to do it again and again. The problem is ultimately you then either end up in prison for your entire life. You die in prison or you get so old that by the time you get out, you have no retirement. You have nobody. You've Everybody's given up on you. You're living in someone's spare room. You're on some kind of subsidy.

And you're bitching a moaned the whole time about how unfair life has been to you. But you never really made an effort. Right. You know, a lot of these guys are just. Right. And that's, you know, I would see them. You can, you know, it's just funny for me to see them and see what was happening. And you can explain it to them and just watch them make the same bad decisions over and over again.

Yeah. yeah so it's I mean this is depressing we're all creatures a habit and that's more of like you know prison's definitely like an extreme example of that you know like I know you know with with officers there's you know obviously prisons a negative environment most people whether they are incarcerated or whether they work there probably would rather be somewhere else I know a few people that's not the case but uh you know it's easy to give way to that that negativity you know you see in our staff you know whatever with whatever's going on if they're having a problem with menstruation or just the job or you know a beef with another co-worker and it's like you know do it at the end of the

day and i used to be like that you know i used to be you know uh i used to be very disgruntled And I just realized, like, dude, you know, we choose to come in here every day, you know. And I talk to a lot of guys that they want to leave, but say, okay, you know, but I mean, you know, you can either see the advantage of where you're at and you, you know, understand that it is, it does pay well. You can raise a family off of it. I am. You know, you can see the positives. There's good people there. or you can just focus on a negative all day but at the end of the day dude you know you are leaving at

some point right so there's no point in uh harping on it i have a question for you do they are do they allow tattooing so this is completely off subject but no you're not allowed to tattoo no tattooing but but but people tattoo right yeah okay yeah yes yes they do i mean it was it was just funny because In the low, they really were cracking down on like, like they were always looking for guys or where did you get, you know, a guy, it was always killed me. And some guy would get a fresh tattoo and be walking around the compound. What are you doing? And the next thing, you know, they get grabbed and they get, they get a shot for mutilation, right? Yeah.

And then, and then like, who did it? Where are? You know, and then they go in there, you know, they start looking at the cameras. They try to see where he went. They, but in the medium, like literally the tattoo guy would go. up to the we go to the co and say listen i'm gonna be honest with the i tattoo like i don't want to do it be blatant about it you know what are your feelings on it and the ceo would be like listen i don't give a shit what you do but the lieutenant's going to come by here between seven and seven 45

you need to get a lookout man oh yeah yeah well you know it's funny because when you first get to to the to the prison you have to talk to what's called s is it's like the special investigative unit they kind of they invest they do investigations but they also investigate the guards um and they they all give you a speech and i remember the speech that i was given because every inmate gets it like you come in you meet with medical you meet with psychology you meet with you know just real quick boom boom you know thinking about hurting yourself if you have any health issues and then the next guy and then you get this the sys comes in to see if you have like a gang affiliation that sort of thing i remember he looked uh i when i came

from the medium to the low he said cox you're going to be okay here and i said i went okay and he said um he said he said let me he said i'm going to put it to you like this and i said i said okay he said i'm going to put it to you like this he goes at the pin we're trying to keep the he we're trying to keep the inmates from stabbing us he is at the medium we're trying to keep the inmates from stabbing each other is at the low we're trying to keep the inmates following the rules he said follow the rules you're going to be okay he is in from based on your record he said it looks like you follow the rules you know like i never got any shots or anything so i was like all right that was it so that's what i'm saying like at the medium like as far as i know

like guys at the pen they said the guards will walk right by you're you know what i'm saying they they're just like we're just trying not to get hurt oh man yeah I can't yeah if I caught that yeah that'd be

that'd be a whole thing actually it's funny you're talking about tattooing I remember one time I was searching for contraband and I was checking a locker I don't know I don't know about the lockers that you all had

you know like a school locker just it's prison and like at the top there's like an inside ridge yeah you know that guys can hide yourself in and like an idiot i slid my fingers oh stuck yourself stuck myself i was like oh shit and i and i checked it was a tattoo needle that was maybe the scariest one in my life now i mean if i go in there tomorrow and i get punched in the face right i signed up with the possibility that that might happen i might get punched in the face i'm quite with that but you know i got you know wife at home you know yeah yeah i'm getting stuck so

you know because you know they talked about HIV and you know hepatitis and all that so went to the hospital and uh got updated on my tetan shots that was awesome and then they took blood from me um gave me something else to take and then i had to go back about five times over the next six months just to make sure i was still negative on everything thank god i am you know but yeah that that certified the hell i mean and then i think the other time was like when COVID hit and it's like oh everybody's getting sick like i don't want to take this home i don't mind something happening to me there i mean i don't want to die but i don't mind something happening to me there i you know i made peace of the fact that it could but just i don't want to take anything home right

Yeah, like I said, my buddy Pete said that the COs were getting sick constantly to, you know, the inmates, too, the inmates, obviously, but the CEOs too, because, you know, they're coming in and out of the same environment over and over and over again. And guys are retiring and said, then guys were not wanting to show up. Then they were threatened to fire them. Then they were, it was just like, he was, you know, he's, my buddy said, he said, I, I feel like I know more about what's going on than the, the CEOs that are here. It's like they're, you know, they're so new. The job is, you know, what you make it. Right. You know, you want to take it as a job. You want to take it as a step and stone. You want to take it as a career, you know. I've been all kinds.

You know, I've thought stepping stone. I thought career. And now, you know, for me, for me, it's a job. I respect as a job. I'm asked to, you know, I'll do what I'm asked. I'll do what I'm required to do. But, you know, when I kind of came upon writing, I really realized that, you know, there was another path for me.

I think in a similar way, you know, you probably came across the same yourself when you started writing stories. You know, you just kind of realized, you know, that, you know, God or, you know, whatever you want to believe in, there's, you know, a different, you know, the different path you didn't expect. And I was a late bloomer, you know, I'm 29. I was 25 when I started, when I picked, I started writing. I used to hate it. you know like in school they'd have you write essays and all that and i hated it and then i kind of just realized how you know good i was at it yeah i like the research and putting things together and being able to tell a story in a certain way and right you know i like the foreshadowing and leading and the you know the i like the research and yeah it definitely gave me a especially in

prison it's like it's what got me through it was like right isn't towards the end like i i i was indifferent as far as leaving you know it was like i was i was perfectly okay in there kind of what we're talking about um you know it becomes your whole world like and that's you know that's that's that's what it had become because i just didn't really it you know after you know it was but probably after about five about six or seven years it was like i had a great routine and i was okay you know i want it out you know you want out but it wasn't as depressing of an environment as as it had been that entire time and then that was about the same time i really started getting into writing you know so i need to write more you know well yeah but

all right it's it's it's definitely a balancing act i mean you know you're really you know you're a busy guy you know i'm a busy guy it's definitely a balancing at um i feel with the whole like being and like kind of just being indifferent about being there you used to to dread it, you know, used to, hey, then now, it's just like, okay, you know, like, this is I'm just dealing with until, you know, I get to the next step. That's kind of the stage that I'm in now, you know. I've got nothing but respect for the job. You know, it pays my bills, honest work, you know, it's, you know, it's true, you know, they are kind of like, you know, unsunged heroes, you know, keeping the scary guys locked up and stuff. Right.

Um, me personally, I'm ready to make the transition. Um, and for me, that's kind of what I'm working on now. You know, like, I kind of realize that writing is my career. Um, this is like a respectable job and I respect it as such. Do you mind if I kind of, uh, gets my exposure for my books out? Yeah. I mean, yeah, plug, plug the book. And I'll put, I'll put the, uh, you know, in the description, I'll put the, I'll make sure Colby puts the links to the books. And, and, um, I'll put the, I'll put the, I'll make sure Colby puts the links to the books. And, yeah so definitely anything any social media or the books so you know you can find them on Amazon right what are the names yep yep I've actually got copies right here so when people see the image they'll know what to click on um this is my uh you just stopped you froze grows up in you know rough area he's taught you know stay off the street, protect your family, you know, a drive-by happens that claims a life of one of his friends, wounds his little brother, and he decides he blames himself. So he takes the time himself to join a gang, and he's got a genius talent for business. So he used that to further his criminal exploits.

That's the misused potential. It's part of an ongoing series. This is the first one, Ice Rising. Ice Box is on the way. They'll be released August 2012. Both, these books are available on Kindle, and Kindle Unlimited, for those you that have that, also available on paperback. I also have my other book, The Ballad of Johnny Carlo. That's the story of an ex-hitman for the mafia, who becomes disillusioned with the mafia, goes on the run, runs down New Orleans, where you meet Leisha Abraham, who is the homicide detective, investigating a series of

gangland slayings in New Orleans. and her investigation is complicated by the fact that one of the leaders of the gangs is her own father. So that's available on Kindle, Kindle Unlimited, paperback, and I also have hardcover. So definitely check it out. You can follow me on my Facebook author page, James Michaels. I'm also on Instagram, same thing, James E. Michaels, from my middle initial. and James Real Mike on Twitter. Okay.

I also had a crime fiction, true crime book club called Books and Crooks on Facebook. For readers and writers of crime fiction, true crime, we can kind of get together and mingle and network. All right, and I'll put all the description, all the links will be in the description. So, you know, if you shoot me that over, I'll have Colby. put everything in the description all right i appreciate you guys checking out the video and do me a favor if you like the video uh share the share it uh hit the subscribe button hit the bell so you get notified also leave me a comment i try and respond to as many comments as i possibly can and i

appreciate you checking out the um checking out the video so or podcast or whatever see you