Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - Who Killed My Dad | Exploring Ice Cold Cases

Episode Date: November 17, 2023

Who Killed My Dad | Exploring Ice Cold Cases

At around 6.40 in the morning, front door is kicked in, and someone shot my dad. He died immediately. The people never entered the house. How do you know that it was multiple people? These men tried to break into their house first. They were looking for his safe, trying to get money out of it. They spent about 40 minutes looking for this safe to then leave with nothing, go next door, kill someone. He was a confidential informant for the police makes this feel a little bit more like maybe the home invasion wasn't the point and killing my dad was the point. Hey, this is Matt Cox and I am here with Madison McGee. She is the host of Ice Cold Case and she is investigating her father's murder and we're going to get into it. Check out the interview.

I was born in Wheeling, West Virginia, which is where my parents met. So they had met a couple years prior to that in a narcotics anonymous meeting, which is similar to like A.A. And they met there and hit it off and had both been kind of in the program for a while and started hanging out, started dating. Then I was born. They were never married, but they were together for a little bit. And then they ended up calling it. And my mom moved like a few hours south to Charleston, West Virginia. And my dad stayed in like this wheeling area, which is sort of like, it's very confusing

because it's Wheeling West Virginia. And then right across the river is Ohio. So sometimes I'll say Ohio and sometimes I'll say wheeling, but it's that area. And my dad was still very much part of my life. They were still friends. They talked like quite a bit. but they just weren't meant to be in a relationship. And so I spent time with my dad.

He would come down. I would go up and stay with him. I had a half-sister on my dad's side that my dad had custody of. So I would see her a lot. And she was about nine years older than me. So she was definitely like a big sister, kind of like model figure for me. She was really fun and sort of in her like teenage rebellious phase. but to me as like a kid that was like cool so she was like really cool um and so yeah that was like

my family and it was a little fractured but to me it didn't feel weird it just felt like this is normal everyone does this i see my dad i still see my mom i have both of my parents whatever um and then when i was six years old my dad was murdered and he was shot in the doorway of his home what does your father do for a living um that's a good question um so he was sort of like retired he used to work at a plant um like an ormet plant and he got injured on the job and made like a pretty significant settlement so he was able to kind of like retire um but he was also a former drug dealer so he was sort of doing that um and because Because of his, like, connections in that world and him not doing that anymore, he was also a confidential informant for the police.

So I don't know the ins and outs of that, but I do think that that's not done for free. So I think that he was had, um, multiple side gigs. Okay. So that makes him a little bit more high risk. Totally. And that makes this, this. incident so much more suspicious i mean it was really brushed off by the cops as like this accidental oh no like this is crazy kind of thing but when you really look at it there's so many leads and so

many obvious avenues to explore that just weren't considered it's really strange okay well so so he was around until you were six and what happened when you because i that's where we cut off so you were six and he answered the door yeah so um yeah i was six and i was not home at the time i was actually visiting other family members in texas and um at around six 35 640 in the morning my dad heard something outside um like scuffling people yelling so he got out of bed and started walking towards the door um unarmed I should add, because my dad did own multiple guns. He just heard something outside and was like, what's going on?

And by this point, the sun was up. So he just went to the door to see what was going on. He's approaching the door and the front door is kicked in. And someone shot my dad at point-blank range, one kill shot. He fell to the ground and died almost immediately. And the people ran away. and never entered the house, never stole anything, never did anything, and that was that. How do you know, so quick question, how do you know that he heard something, like, was someone else there?

And how do you know that it was multiple people? That's just an assumption. There's no other reason why I would imagine my dad would like randomly get out of bed and head towards the door unless he heard there was someone like outside. And to get to his door, there was like the front door was on like the second level. So you have to walk up steps. And those steps were right beside his bedroom window. So I would imagine that he had heard like people running up the steps or talking or doing something because his window would have been right there.

And that's what would have prompted him to like go to the door. This was in 2002. So it's not like a text message or something. Right. Couldn't someone have just knocked? Um, yeah, but the door was kicked in. And he hadn't actually gotten to the door yet. So he was actually like walking towards the door.

He hadn't opened the door himself. Right. And if they kicked it in and he was downstairs, he wouldn't have made it that far. Yeah. Okay. So someone still, they could have knocked. And as he was on his way up, they kicked it in or whatever the reason. Something brought him to the front door.

And before you even got there, boom, doors kicked in. Yeah. Okay. And yeah, there were multiple people there based on like I wouldn't. account. So there is my next door neighbor, who was also my cousin and my dad's nephew, was around that morning. And these men allegedly tried to break into their house first, actually did break into their house first. And so they say my cousin, his mom and his girlfriend, say that there were four men there and that they left their house and then went next door and then went to my dad's

house. Okay. So you definitely feel like, so there's definitely some kind of a connection. Yeah, for sure. And that's a bit suspicious. What that connection is, I'm not entirely sure of. And if it's an innocent connection, I'm not entirely sure of. Well, if they broke in your, you know, your relative's house first, like they don't know why they broke in. Did they? yeah so it's assumed that they were looking for drug money so they kept referencing this safe they kept saying bay's safe and bay was the nickname of my other cousin richard who is Omar's brother and it's assumed that they were looking for his safe trying to get money out of it but that safe wasn't there and they spent about 40 minutes ransacking

the house looking for this safe which is a pretty significantly long home invasion um especially looking for money trying to rob someone you're pretty much in and out very quickly right um and not making a scene and so 40 minutes feels really long and to then leave with nothing go next door kill someone still steal nothing and leave makes this feel a little bit more like maybe the home invasion wasn't the point and maybe killing my dad was the point okay um so they take off so there's four guys they take off so when do you so at the time you're six nobody you don't really know you just know that he passed away how are you told yeah my family told me that my dad had a heart attack and died and that was sort of the story that just lived in my brain for a very

long time um i didn't even think that to question it i mean why would you that it makes sense my dad was 45 that that happened sometimes um and so i never questioned it again and just thought that my dad had a heart attack for most of my childhood okay and when and when did you find out that yeah so i was 16 um when i found out that my dad was murder I was about to graduate high school. It was actually on my dad's birthday in 2012, which is May 4th. And we went to visit my dad's grave and put like a headstone on his grave. And while we were up there, because it was two and a half hours away, my mom asked if I wanted to go see my dad's family.

So I said, sure. So we went to see my grandmother on my dad's side. And he, she lived with Pearl, my dad's sister and Omar, my dad's nephew. all of whom were living in that house next door when my dad was killed. And so my grandmother was living with them at the time, and we went over to their house. We spent a little bit of time with them. And as we were leaving, Omar wasn't spending much time with us. He was upstairs.

He came downstairs as we were leaving. I turned around. I saw him and I had like a physical reaction to seeing him that I still to this day, like cannot explain. it felt like someone punched me in the stomach and I felt the wind like knock out of my lungs and I hurled forward and my mom didn't see anything so she was like what is going on and I could had to catch my breath and we got in the car and I sat down and I looked at my mom and I said was Omar there when my dad had a heart attack because I have this like visual that Omar is standing there not helping him. And my mom panicked and she pulled over because we were driving and she told me that

my dad didn't actually have a heart attack, that he was in fact murdered and that there's a lot of speculation about Omar's involvement and that he was technically involved in some way, whether as a victim of this home invasion or more than that. And so it was very strange that I would have this sort of question and feeling based on knowing nothing. And so that was the day that I found out. I mean, at that time, what did you say to your mom? Did you say like, why did you tell me? Like, which is a good reason not to tell you, but, you know, just wondering what

sure. I understand more now at 28 why I wasn't told than I did at the time. I was very angry, but I was going through like a very weird range of emotions at the time. I mean, I'm finding out that my dad. is murdered. I want to be mad at my mom, but I'm also sad. And now I feel like I'm sort of re-greaving my dad's death. I'm also thinking about all of the people over the last 10 years whose parents had had had heart attacks that I was empathizing with and sitting with my friends going, well, I know what you're going through and like this happened to me. And then realizing

like none of that was true, it almost felt like my life was this weird lie and that I was like unintentionally like a con person because I didn't know that that wasn't my reality, but I'm living in that and like telling people that. And and it feels kind of, it felt really weird to kind of look back on my life and go, I was so adamant that this was true and telling people this and I was basically made it up. Right. Yeah, you'd been misled, but you know, you were a little girl like you know it's yeah traumatic enough to throw you know who knows you know they don't want you to be scared and you know um so at what point did you start looking into it did you did you start at what point did you say okay well was was someone found you know was someone found what

was it about like when did you start looking into it i had a lot of questions at that moment but I was so re-traumatized that I didn't really even think about starting to look into this until a little bit later. I started probably asking questions here and there all the time, randomly like reaching out to family members on Facebook or trying to get a hold of my sister again or trying to ask questions and reconnect with other siblings that were older than me that I didn't really know. I would randomly call my mom at like three in the morning sometimes and just say like did they find anything like was there like a shirt or like footprints or what size shoe was on the door that they kicked in things like that but it wasn't ever anything that I took really seriously until around

like 2020 um like very beginning of 2020 I just had this like urge to I don't know start looking into it curiosity I had time on my hands um and so that's when I got the police files and started doing like a full deep dive of what's on record what really happened and who was really involved would you did a public service i mean public uh like a freedom of information act only what the state freedom of information act like public uh no i just called um i am like not a journalist or anything like that at all i picked up the phone and i just called the belmont county sheriff's department and i said that i'm interested in these forms and like the files and I maybe they filed for me or something because they sent it over to the prosecutor's office but it took a really long time and then finally I got

a hold of the prosecutor's office and they were able to send me over everything and then I really got kind of all consumed by this case. So what did the files say? It's a pretty small police file, especially considering it's a murder investigation. I was talking to someone actually at CrimeCon that was frustrated by the police and how small their file was, and it was 111 pages. And mine is a fraction of that size. And so it made me kind of realize like how insignificant this file really was. And a lot of it was redacted. And so there wasn't a ton. I mean, there's information in there, but it wasn't everything that I was looking for. but I found out a little bit more about what their theory was.

So this is where I learned more about this home invasion and how long the people were in the house and sort of what happened inside of Pearl and Omar's house. And I learned a little bit more about that. And I learned more about the gaps. There's a lot of like holes in this than I realized, okay, now my job is to fill these holes. And so that was helpful because in the beginning it felt like I'm just sort of on this journey and I have no idea where I'm headed. And now it's like, okay, well, I could probably start answering this question and this question and what's happening here.

So that was helpful in that way, but it still felt like I was, you know, looking for a needle in a haystack. So, I mean, what did, what did, you know, like, who did they interview? Did they interview just your, just, sorry, go ahead. No, that's okay. I'm, yeah, they interviewed a lot of my family. So they interviewed Omar. They interviewed Pearl. They interviewed Omar's girlfriend, who was also in the house.

The three of them were at the house. They interviewed, my dad was in a custody battle for my younger brother. So he was actually due in court the day after he was murdered for custody of my little brother. So they interviewed his mom and they interviewed her boyfriend at the time to see if there was any sort of motive involved with this custody case. They interviewed kind of some random people that my dad had some interesting dealings with, like the guy who sold him his car and like a couple other people like that. But all of these interviews were like very short. None of them

seemed to really get anywhere. And for some people who I would have considered a suspect for much longer they sort of brushed it off like i think of denean and butchie the couple so shane's mom and her boyfriend um as soon as they said they didn't do it they were like okay and it was like it's so bizarre like it's just so weird to go okay well oh we believe you and like leave and so that there were things like that that just really didn't add up or make sense to me and one thing that never really came up as far as being a potential motive was that my dad was a confidential informant. They acknowledge it in the police file, but they never look into cases that my dad was an informant on and they never know who went to jail, who was convicted, and if any of that would have been

motive. And so that's something that really stuck out to me. So did you ever get any of the cases that he worked on? There's one pretty big one. And it was one of his first. And it was involving another nephew of his. And that nephew got sentenced to life in prison, no possibility of parole. And to me, that seemed like the strongest motive. Because a lot of these cases that my dad was working on, someone might go to jail for like four to six years. They get out. But that's kind of the lifestyle. You're in and out of jail. That's probably not enough motive for you to want someone dead because you're probably going to go in and out of the system doing what you're doing anyways. But this particular case was his own nephew going to jail for life, no possibility of parole under the RICO act. And that your father, that your father acted as a CI on. Okay. Correct. Um, he may be holding somebody in involved in that may be holding a grudge i believe so um i believe so at the time the nephew that i'm referring to was in jail or in prison right but i think that he was very well connected

and had a lot of resources um did you ever reach out to him um he's an interesting person he's an interesting person he's currently in protective custody by the federal government because now he is an informant himself um on a massive cartel case you have a super colorful it's like a colorful family you know you got a whole you got a whole true crime uh uh thing going with uh with just them yeah so he's he's yeah so you can't reach out to him obviously right i can't even find him well they they tend to make it difficult that's part of the whole and when i started asking questions i got some pretty threatening phone calls uh they're not going to do anything who who who by the by the feds uh yeah the police yeah okay stop looking for i'm stuff i'm a lot to do whatever i want to do fuck off um

well it's not like i'm like trying to do anything to him. I just have a couple of questions. Um, yeah, not that he's going to be much help anyway, but he might, you never know what he might say. He might say, hey, listen, you know, look, a lot of people, they switch sides and maybe they, maybe he suddenly says, listen, this is, these guys were upset about it. These guys were upset. I heard through the grapevine. This is what happened. Who knows? But it is odd that they went to, um, your, uh, your, your, your, your, your uncle or your aunt or uncle's house first yeah my aunt's house yeah yeah it is odd so it definitely makes it seem like it it has to be connected with that so what else where else has this

gone where what other avenues rabbit holes have you is that um that works rabbit holes those are those are the big ones that I've sort of explored. There were definitely people there that I think I can identify. And now I'm just trying to run down these rabbit holes of like how they're connected to all of these other people. And so the three people that I've sort of identified is like 90% sure they were there. Now my, my, I see, keep saying my job. This is the police's job. I'm doing what I feel compelled to do as a daughter. But my sort of job is now to connect those three people to the cousin that I'm referring to that was in prison at the time.

And those connections are pretty obvious. So this theory that I'm forming is starting to really like build connective tissue make a lot of sense. And so now I'm just starting to like continue down that until I hit a dead end. and if that happens, I'll pivot. But so far, I haven't. Well, why, why? So you're saying you've pinpointed.

Out of the four people, you think you've pinpointed three of them. How have you, how have you made that connection? So very interestingly, there was one person taken to a grand jury for this case. And those charges were dropped for reasons that, seem superficial. The current prosecutor at the time basically said that Omar, my cousin, was such an unreliable witness that if he went on the stand in a real trial, this person that they had taken to a grand jury, his name is Daryl, that Daryl would never be convicted. And in order to salvage the case and potentially take him to court later, they needed more

time and so they dropped the charges on darrell dropped all the grand jury and said that they were going to go back and try to kind of beep up their case but that was in 2003 and no one has been tried again no one has no charges have been issued so it doesn't really seem like that was their intention at the time it just seemed like they were like well let's just let it go um and they were from what I've heard and what I've read, they were very confident that Daryl was one of the people there. So it doesn't make sense to drop the charges on someone that you're very confident was there and then sort of move on and not even consider this person again later and just let them keep going. And now Daryl has been in and out of jail and has had a few really interesting

cases, some very dangerous. He's a very dangerous person. And it's very frustrating that justice wasn't served years and years ago, regardless of if Daryl's the person who pulled the trigger or not, I do believe he was there. And he has a connection to my cousin, who I'm referring to. So have you ordered a Freedom of Information Act on him, on Daryl? No, I have not, but I am kind of doing some other um i'm going an interesting route particularly with darrell um to to get some information on him um i'm going to more of a personal route in this case um and the other two people who i think were there are not in prison they're just living their life in this county still so um also

sort of taking more of a personal approach to try to get information about them okay well I mean, so I've written a bunch of true crime stories, right? And I've done a ton of research. Like, I mean, every, every state, of course, there's a federal freedom of information act. And then every state has a freedom of public records act, right? They, they call them different things. I don't know what you're what they call them there. But you could always just fill out like literally, it's not even a form.

You just write a letter. You know, here's the person's name. Here's who he is. Here's the identifying information. I'd like his files. Like every time, you know, and then submit it to whatever the local police department to the, you know what I'm saying? Anywhere he's been arrested, you could actually run a background check on him and find out every place he's ever been arrested and then request all of those.

Because if you request all of those and you read through them and you make kind of like you've seen the, you've seen the like the FBI charge. right you know where they'll put like one at the top and this you know you've got the string this one goes here here like if you started something like that you might be able to find all kinds of overlapping things like hey look this phone number and this phone number are the same this is the same person or this person is his aunt this is uncle look this address is the same address that he put on this form that this person put on this form you know what I'm saying like you might find all kinds of connections and at least if you had those connections then when you go to ask

questions you have a lot of information was that when you were when he was living here with with your cousin and oh no no no no he was living with jennifer but but but then they broke up and he was living with so and so and is that before he got arrested and went to prison yeah yeah they start people start to go damn like they'll start to talk to you people will tell you a lot if they think you already have the information you know yeah no that's great and i have so many questions now for you um like who do i write that form to because when i called to at my dad's file, I was basically told by the front desk of the Belmont County Sheriff's Department that Ohio does not abide by the Freedom of Information Act and that I'm not entitled

to anything. Well, every state has a Freedom of Public Records Act. So you can basically, like if you look up Ohio, Freedom of Public Records Act, I'll bet you, I'm sure they have a form, you know. Okay. But, um, but typically you don't even need the form. Like when I send offer a Freedom of Information Act or for a Freedom of Public Records Act for Florida, I made my own little form. Hey, based on this statute, I am requesting the following documents. And then I list, you know, like any incident reports, any this report, any that report, police reports, you know, interview reports. And I'll go through and I always put like internal notes and something. They never give them to me.

But, you know, the internal notes, they'll say, you know, they'll always. So you know, we're not filling this. We don't give internal notes on what. And then periodically they'll say, oh, well, it's an open investigation. But honestly, yours is not. No, there's no way they can. And they, they obviously have closed the investigation. They gave you all the, they gave you a bunch of stuff already. But a lot of those people have already been sentenced. Like they were arrested, sentenced, got out of prison. So that's old information. They should give you all kinds of stuff. You know, you would be able to get reams of information. You know, you would be able to get reams of information. on these people and probably be able to put together how you know the connections between all of them which is obviously something that the police did not do because it would all be in that file they you know someone got shot this is not somebody that this is somebody in a high risk lifestyle they got shot you would at the very least think that the that if he was working he's working as a as a a CI that whoever he's working as a C. for, they would want to find out if there was a connection.

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Like, like, you know, so really tracking down, like, who he's working with. Like, what was the name of that detective? What was his, who? Did you ever talk to him? Um, his name is Nippert and he's retired and moved to the south somewhere. Um, I've tried to get a hold of him. I've reached out several times. I thought that maybe when the podcast started to come out, like maybe he would then reach out.

Um, but I haven't heard back. I mean, he might. You know, listen, I wrote a story one time, this is three, four years ago. I wrote a story, put it up on my website, I haven't thought much about it, probably, I don't know, at this point, it's probably four months ago. I get a random email from the FBI agent that was, that had worked. the case. He's since retired. He now works as a detective looking into cold case files and is looking into one of the cases, the murder of one of the guys that in the story I wrote. He asked me, can I talk to you? I said, sure. And he contacted me. And we started talking. He was like, hey, look, you know, did he ever say this? He ever say that. And I was like, well, I mean, he doesn't know who who killed his, his buddy. My subject's best friend was murdered. I was like, he doesn't know, but I happened to talk to this guy and this guy told me this and this.

And as I'm telling him this, I'm like, but I don't know if that's the person that murdered him. And he goes, oh, no, no, no, that's the guy that murdered him. And I go, what do you mean? He said, no, no, no. He said, I already got a confession. He just recanted. That's the guy he said he hired. And I was like, oh, my God.

And he was like, he's like, well, what about the guy that told you? Would he, would he tell me? I said, I told him to tell you. He's locked up. He doesn't want to talk to you. I said, but then again, that was about four or five years ago. He may, it may be a different story now. And he was like, oh, I'm going to, he found out where he was, where, what prison he was at.

And he was like, I'm going to have to go see him. So you don't know, like years later, somebody, something happens and that's it. They suddenly say, hey, you know what? What's going on? So, but yeah, I would definitely try and contact that guy. You could probably if you know his full, if he's a detective and you know his full name and you know the address or something where he used to live or at least the police station. I'm trying to think, well, you know the city at the very least. You could probably order a, you could probably do a search on him.

Do you know what city, what, what state he retired to? I think it's Alabama. I do have it. It might be Mississippi, but I, someone sent it to me. I mean, there's, there's, he moved, yeah. There's investigative services like online for like 40 or 50 bucks. They'll, they'll look them up. They'll find them. Keep in mind, I look people up all the time because I'll try to get somebody on a podcast or I'm interviewing. I'm like somebody will be telling me a story that I'm writing. And then they'll say, well, this person, this person. He's been arrested a bunch. I'm like, like, for what? Well, I don't know. I'm like, oh, okay. So then I'll run a search and then I'll come back. He was arrested here and here and here. And then I've got this address and this address and then. And then we can do a freedom of information act. And we start getting that out. We found out, oh, he was arrested for this and this. And they're like, oh, my gosh.

I'm like, yeah. You know, so I've done that a ton of time. I've done that where guys are like, well, yeah, and then I got arrested. I'm like, for what? I don't know. The cops arrested me. Well, how did they know you were selling drugs? I don't know. Okay, I'll figure it out. Sure enough. You know, a month later, I'll walk in. I'll go, do you know a guy named Pookie? Yes, I do know a Pookie. Well, Pookie and another guy named, you know, whatever, robbed a 7-Eleven. Pookie got arrested and decided to cooperate. Pookie called his aunt and his aunt is the one that set you up for the and they're like, oh my God.

So, so I'm telling you, if you start ordering other people's stuff, you might put a connection together that would be mind blowing. At the very least, it's content for your channel, right? Like it's something like, oh my God, I got so and so, you know, and it's not like you can't say it. It's, it's public records. Right. I'm allowed to order. I can order public records and I can put it on the internet if I want to. So, um, you could order it and say, look, here's what's going on. Here's the here's what this and I don't know what that means. And I don't know. You know what should probably happen is you may end up getting some, some of the people following your channel to

help you and start helping you do some research. Yeah. You need a team. You know, it's true. You know, Yeah, no, that's amazing. You probably got a full-time job. You're like, I'm doing it from your side. I do. I have a full-time job. And this has become another sort of full-time job. You need a 45-year-old divorcee who's not dating, who shares her kids with the ex-husband and has some time on our hands.

That's the chick you need. You need her. She's angry. she's bitter she wants someone to pay and you can give her a target to focus that anger exactly what i need um yeah oh god that's horrible i was just going to say i i'm always i have a buddy who does editing right or we're always having to do editing for like our tictocks i'm like i need somebody that to help me i'm like somebody that like is competent that just sits home all day And he and I said that that pays attention to details and my buddy goes, so we need someone that had someone with Asperger syndrome maybe, somebody who maybe is like, because what are you thinking? You think like paralyzed or I'm like, I don't know. Maybe he's overweight. Maybe he's just maybe he's a shut in. We need to find that person that has nothing to do but wants to edit all day. That's what I need. It's just hard to track that guy down. They're out there. There. I know they. No, they. I know they.

are i know they are i just my fear my problem is they don't watch my channel they don't want to help but they might help you maybe yeah um yeah definitely you gotta order that stuff the end it's great content for your channel like are no i'm definitely gonna look into that um i had found a couple things that were really interesting online a couple weeks ago and um that sort of sparked this oh what else can i look up online um what is did you say ohio oh yeah belmont counties um the county no that's okay ohio freedom of hope yeah any person i don't know why they have person in quotes but any person who um any person who includes corporations individuals and even other government agencies may request public records the requester does not have to be an ohio resident because sometimes that's an

issue by the way like i've ordered stuff in others in like louisiana and stuff they're like you're not a citizen you don't live in you're not a resident of louisiana we don't have to give you nothing um and the person seeking so you do not have to be a resident of uh of ohio uh and the person seeking the records may designate someone else to inspect or retrieve copies oh okay um ohio public records act common questions yeah ohio freedom of information laws yeah this was enacted in uh 19 yeah they'll they'll do it Like, if you say freedom of public records, I can see how the woman say, oh, we don't, we don't, we don't buy by the freedom of, well, yeah, I understand the federal freedom of it's federal, but you have a state one. So you just have to figure out whatever that. See, look, here's the code. It's like section 149 point, you know, four three of the Ohio revised code. The law described blah, blah, blah, blah. You just come up with whatever that, the public records act. They've got it right here. or two. Just quote the first thing, hey, under the, under the 459 point whatever code, I am hereby

requesting as soon as you say Ohio State Freedom of Public Records Act, they're going to be like, oh, man, what does she want? And then they're going to go through and start looking for it and find it. It just may take a few months. I'm going to do it. Yeah. But what would be cool too is like I don't know what your content is, but you could even do a video on filing it because then people, you say, I looked up this, I did this, I filed this, I'm filing on this person and this person and this person. Such a good idea. So it's been a lot of like kind of curated content. So it hasn't been a lot of the like behind the scenes.

We've been filming and documenting all of that, but just not posting it. So the first like sort of installment of the podcast was very much like a scripted doc show where I'm narrating and putting in my interview by. of people that I spoke to. I went to the town and interviewed the detectives and interviewed all these people. And so that was sort of the first installment. And now that we're working on sort of part two, which will be another eight episodes coming at the beginning of next year, we're sort of in this like investigative stage. And so I could be posting sort of the in-betweens, the behind the scenes, what I'm doing to prep for this next sort of installment of episodes. So are these produced like by a production company, like a studio, is there a studio or is it just you?

Currently, it's just me, but open to working and partnering with a production company. And are these YouTube? It's a podcast with audio only. They do exist on YouTube, but it's just waveforms because there's no visual. Yeah, because you all to think about doing like just like a YouTube. You know what I'm saying? Like why why not get that I mean it's a massive platform like why not get that exposure totally where do you post these like wherever you get your podcast so I um upload to like it's on google podcast Apple Spotify so you upload like anchor and then they just redistributed it something like that where it's like Spotify yeah yeah yeah I use a hosting platform anything else we didn't cover um I mean that's sort of the gist I mean there's so many intricacies and in the case and just like interesting. characters and things. But yeah, I mean, stay tuned now. This was so helpful and

exciting because I feel like this sort of will launch a whole new side of this investigation and maybe I'll come back and give you an update on based on this conversation in like six months where things have ended up. So that's really exciting. And yeah, it's it's going to be good. I feel very confident that I will get really, really close to answers very soon. I feel like I was already kind of on the right path. And now it's just a matter of proving my theory right or wrong and going from there. And so I think a lot of this is going to really be helpful. Cool. Well, yeah, that wasn't really the point of this whole thing. But, but yeah, that's good. It's good that it's leaning that way. Yeah, I definitely think I could definitely, I definitely see you

with a with a a bunch of a bunch of different colored yarn on a with a bunch of mug shots all on the wall you know and there's some intersection and you're like ah so yeah uh yeah okay yeah there's there's definitely got to be more connections i wouldn't be shocked if you didn't if you didn't stumble upon those connections you'd be shocked how many time the police they don't have like it's sometimes it's just got to be it's got to be dropped in their lap you know and and i and i feel like it does not for all police officers but for some of them it does have to be it does have to be someone it has to be somebody that's i hate to say this but you know someone who's like if it's a if it's an upper middle class you know white guy that gets gunned down

well they're going to put a significant amount of effort into it and if it has media tension but if it's somebody who's been in and out of jail who's living a high list high risk lifestyle like they're going to make they're going to they're going to go through the motions a little bit but they're not going to go overboard right you know unfortunately um you always see these guys you know the cold case files who track down someone from six some woman who was found you know raped and murdered in a field you know 60 years ago and they they exhaust all kinds of effort to to find them and so people think oh that's that's how they really are you know but that guy that detective is far and few in between, unfortunately.

You know, most of them fall, most murders fall into certain categories. And most people, most of the, of the perpetrators fall into certain categories. And the moment it kind of falls out of that, then then you really need someone to spearhead an investigation to get that done. And honestly, that's a lot of work for when they've got so many cases. I don't know what the murder rate is in Ohio, but if it's high and they don't have a lot of detectives, and honestly, to be honest with you, like, if you're a police officer, like the pinnacle of being a police officer for most, most cops is being a homicide. Like they really are the cream of the crop, but they're also overwhelmed. And like I said, you know, who am I going after?

There's a woman who has two kids who was killed. I go after, I'm going to really look for her. She's got two children. She's got this. She's got that. This is someone who's involved in drugs. It may be drug related. You know, so there probably did not push or do the effort that they should have done.

But at this point, if you start making that effort and you've got a podcast, you know, and it's getting some traction, then eventually. I think if you get close enough, you get a couple articles made, they'll open that puppy back up and say, you're going to have to look into this. Something might happen. Yeah, no, it's so true. And you're spot on. And that's something that I've noticed in this case in particular, is just the lack of attention this got in the moment because of the circumstances. But that attention to detail could be the reason that this gets solved now. And so that's very frustrating.

Something that a lot of people have asked me is about evidence and DNA. Oh, could you test something for DNA now? And that's great in theory, but that requires evidence to have been collected with DNA. And if they didn't do that, then there's nothing I can do. And that's sort of the situation that I'm in now is I'm having to make a murder map, connect the yarn, do all of this because they didn't swipe for fingerprints in the moment. or look at what shoe size it was and what kind of shoe and who was wearing a similar shoe and all of the things that they didn't do in the moment are making this more difficult now.

And that's so frustrating. And I wonder if they would get away with that if it was a mom of two children and the public would be in an uproar if they knew that the police weren't swiping for fingerprints and collecting DNA evidence. But because it's what it is in my circumstance, it doesn't feel as important. And it's something that I've learned throughout this as well. There are other cases like my dad's. And that's something that I have now sort of felt this weight of responsibility that when I get to some sort of closing point on my case, like potentially helping other people who feel neglected by the system and neglected, even by the media and other shows that highlight cases like this that just aren't highlighting theirs.

Like, what can be done about that? Right. Listen, I hope it works out. I mean, you have to let me know, you know? For sure. For sure, yeah. Hold on one second. Let me, anything else?

You feel like we didn't, you feel okay about this? No, this was great. This was like really interesting. conversation in a very unique interview so hey i appreciate you guys uh checking out the interview if you liked it and you want to see more videos like this uh do be a favor and hit the subscribe button hit the bell so you get notified leave me a comment in the comment section also i'm going to leave a link to ice cold case podcast in the description box do be a favor consider joining my patreon and all the other stuff and buy a book and i appreciate you guys watching

thank you very much see you where were you born I was born in Atlanta, Georgia, grew up in Fulton County my entire life, even went to college in downtown Atlanta at Georgia State, still work in Fulton County. So I'm right here, native. And how did you, so what got you interested in law enforcement? Wait a minute. Was it your mom? Yes. Okay.

No, but no doubt. She, my mother could tell a story that would just. stop you dead in your tracks. And she was a tremendous gifted storyteller. And she knew a ton of history. She was a history teacher. So she would craft it in a way that you would just be on the edge of your seat. Well, we used to take long car trips. And when you would get outside Atlanta, about an hour and a half, the radio wouldn't work any longer. Well, she had five girls to entertain. So she would usually start somewhere like, you know what this road reminds me of? Well, then we would know, here it comes.

And the first story that I remember being captivated by was Bonnie and Clyde. And it just went from there. And so then she would tell us stories about John Dillinger and Al Capone and Babyface Nelson. And it just never stopped being interesting to me. So from the age of four, own, you know, it was always, what can I learn about? What can I read about? Who can I go meet? What can I go see?

and when they were when I was eight they took me to see the death car and then when I was 12 they took me to Alcatraz so it just never left me yeah what did Bonnie and Clyde they was it 18 months or something there they're 16 months they're crying you know it seems like it was you know if you hear all the stories and you think oh pretty much just years and years but it it wasn't that long it was not that long nope I was wonder I wonder what the real story is, you know, because there were, there are like those reports and the documentaries that talk about how, um, gosh, was it, uh, who was the FBI director then, um, Hoover, right? Like he was, you know, kind of trying to manipulate the, the press, you know, what was happening,

what wasn't happening? And then it was like, okay, they were gunning down the officers or wait, maybe the officers shot at them first or, you know, like, I don't know. But it, it, It's kind of like I had, I said earlier before we even started about that the con man guy that I watched that movie about. It was a, it was a movie that was based on true events, but it was a real story. And I talked to the guy that wrote, wrote the story and did all the investigating and the guys on the FBI's most oner list. Like, he was, he was a kind of a, he was kind of a con, he was very much, he was a con man, he was always running a little scams and things. And then suddenly he ended up just out of the blue, he just, he robbed a courier and he shot and killed him. And it was so senseless that it just didn't, it made no sense at all.

It was totally out of character. So you just never know. Like you think like Bonnie and Clyde, like they're robbing banks, but they don't really want to hurt anybody. But then again, that doesn't mean that they weren't necessarily also killing people. Maybe they did. Maybe they, who knows. Right. Well, I'll tell you, I need to introduce you to Raylene.

Linder and Buddy Barra, they are family members of Bonnie and Klein. And they can tell you firsthand what they know. Ray Lean knew everybody involved. And their story is, I don't even know how to tell you how captivate me. And it's a good, you know, again, to me, if you look at the history of crime, you can see the history of America. And when you talk about somebody like Jay Gahoover, he was a marketer. He was brilliant. When he came up with, you know, the most wanted, you know, public enemy number one, that's genius, because now you've got everybody bought in to get in this person.

So if, in fact, you know, John Dillinger's gunned down on the street, you've already told everybody. He's the most violent person there is, so nobody questions anything about it, you know. So, I mean, to me, he did an unbelievable job in that regard. But there's always two sides. So I think, you know, if you got a chance to talk to Ray Lane, you would just adore her. Right. I mean, there's just, there's so many underhanded things that, you know, Hoover was involved in that, was it there was there were these, there was a Nazi plot where they dropped off these saboteurs and one of the, one of the Germans went straight to the FBI and said,

listen this is what's going on like i we landed there's like six six of us we're supposed to blow this stuff up i don't want to be involved and they go and they arrest all of them including the guy that went to them and they they they they try them and they give them they all get like the electric chair and just before the one of the the main guy that had gone and turned them in and keep mind they didn't even want to believe him he had to show up with a bunch of of counterfeit money. He pulled out like $30,000 in counterfeit U.S. bills and said, look, they gave us this money to use.

It's counterfeit. They were like, what the hell? So that made them think, oh, this has got to be real. It turns out like the president commuted the guy's sentence the life. But Hoover had pitched it as we discovered this plot. We arrested these guys. And then it ends up getting these guys the death penalty and never says this. this guy came forward, he was the reason.

And he's ready to execute him, too. What a great way to keep him quiet. Yeah. There's so many little underhanded things like that about Hoover that. So it's, I don't know, it's the same thing with like, you know, the Bonney and Clyde thing. Like, where they, you know, they definitely, they definitely murdered some people. But I wonder how it came about. And they definitely robbed some banks.

But did they rob all the ones that they were, you know, pinned for? Right. I mean, there was no better time basically to rob your own bank and blame it on them. Right. Think about it. Or how much was, you know, how much was actually taken, you know? Exactly. They got $500, you know, but they got $200.

Right. Right. So the Alcatraz thing, we had talked about the Alcatraz that you had met one of the guys that was an Alcatraz, a bank robber? Yes, Robert Chavon, inmate 1355, honey. why did you so how did you get connected with him i got connected because again i'm a i'm a history buff when it comes to crime and you know sometimes a story will just resonate with me well the way he rob banks his getaway vehicle was the USS Franklin delano roosevelt greatest getaway vehicle ever it's got to be i mean that beats a model t that beats an airplane i mean come on right

Right. So the way he would, you know, commit these crimes, he would stash civilian clothes in a locker at the bus station when they dot the first time, when they came. Navy. Because he was in the Navy. Right. So when they came around the second time, he would go to the bus station, change out of his uniform into civilian clothes, walk down the street, robbed the bank, walk back, change back into his uniform, and literally walk back on the ship. Well, anybody walking in downtown San Francisco or wherever he was, they're not going to look at a naval man twice. So even if they've gotten some alarm call, they're not going to look at him. And that's not how, you know, the witnesses are going to say he was dressed anyway.

And by the time they're really investigating the case, that literally that ship has sailed. And he's in another fort. And it was just such a brilliant yet elementary type. you know, scam that I thought, I got to meet this guy. And then from our first meeting, we just became friends. And I mean, he was funny. He was smart. He would openly tell you different things. And he put a lot of things in perspective. And the first time I got to meet him in person, I got up on the porch. I knocked on the door. And he's in the back of the house and says, you know, come on in. And so I was joking with him that, you know, hey, you know, you're not

real security conscious, you know, being funny. And he went, listen, the minute I walked out of Alcatraz, I told myself, I will never be behind a locked door again. And I thought, you know what? I get it. I love that. So, you know, you learn from anybody. So I can learn from a fantastic police commissioner, and I can learn from an ex-criminal. They all have an expertise to share that you can use for the greater good. And he's just one of those people that I just connected with on a lot of levels. And he was a family person. He was super devoted to his family. And in a full circle moment, again, when I was 12, my parents took me at Alcatraz. Then I befriended Robert. And then his daughter invited me to participate in his memorial service,

own Alcatraz, which was an experience, oh my gosh. I mean, I can't even tell you. It was just it was overwhelming to see the devotion of his daughter and then the respect from the Rangers. I mean, it was really unbelievable. And we had Michael Eslinger, who's an expert in Alcatraz. He's written tons of books. I mean, he was basically our private guide along with the Rangers. So We got to go places. The general public didn't, you know, doesn't ever get to go. So it was awesome. And you were saying that his daughter, like, released his ashes underneath the cell?

Under his cell window. Yes. So he wanted her to, you know, stand there literally under his, you know, prison cell and, you know, release his ashes so he could get off that island one more time. And if you knew him, I mean, that's part of his humor. And it's also part of, you know, for him, it was just this, I'm going to be free. And it was more of that than, you know, anything. So it was just, it was touching. It was interesting for historical purposes, again, you know, if you look at America, you can track America through crime.

I mean, the American mafia, you can take it all the way through, you know, the way people rob banks, the way, you know, shooting. happen, the way murders happen, especially some of the, you know, big-time famous things that we all know, but Alcatraz is pinnacle to me. When, you know, when you mention him, like, dressing up in, it's funny because he, it's kind of like the opposite of the Thomas Crown affair, you know, where he actually gets into a uniform that everybody sees, that everybody recognizes, but it's certainly not what the police have been told to look for. Exactly.

So I actually, I was locked up with a guy named Anthony Curseo who had robbed a, and done a lot of research, like really kind of figured this out. He, you know, of course, he watched the Wells Fargo truck show up at a Bank of America off the money. He knew somebody that was, that actually worked there. that he, you know, never, you know, wouldn't, you know, they knew something was wrong because it was a drop of like 350,000 or 290,000. Like, it was, it was an excessive amount of money for, for those types of drops. And he watched them, knew the schedule. He had an outfit, right? He had the face mask. I mean, sorry, you know, the guys that go around and they pick up trash. So he had a face mask, that little dust mask. He had an orange, you know, the little

reflecting thing that you wear. The vest, uh-huh. The vest. He had the little, uh, we call them Cadillacs in prison. The long thing, so you don't have to bend over, so you pick up. And the little scooper thing, you put the, put it in. And blue jeans and a white shirt. And that was his kind of, he would dress up like that and wander around while he watched the schedule of when these guys would come and go and then he would take his stuff and roll it up and stick it in the bushes and then leave and then come back and keep watching him so he knew the schedule of of the deliveries and he went out and he got bear mace and he actually sprayed himself with the bear mace to see you know it's like it's mace you know sure just to see if you know how bad is this

going to decapacitate this person this guy because he said I didn't want to use a gun. I didn't want to hurt him and I didn't want to be charged with the gun if something went wrong. I didn't want them to say, hey, you used a gun. You had a gun. Using forgeries and bogus identities, Matthew B. Cox, one of the most ingenious conmen in history, built America's biggest banks out of millions. Despite numerous encounters with bank security, state, and federal authorities, Cox narrowly, and quite luckily, avoided capture for years. Eventually, he topped the U.S. Secret Service's Most Wanted list and led the U.S. Marshals, FBI and Secret Service, on a three-year chase, while jet-setting around the world with his attractive female accomplices. Cox has been declared one of the most prolific mortgage fraud con artists of all time by CNBC's American Greed.

Bloomberg Business Week called him the mortgage industry's worst nightmare, while Dateline NBC described Cox as a gifted forger and silver-tongued liar. Playboy magazine proclaimed his scam was real estate fraud, and he was the best. Shark in the housing pool is Cox's exhilarating first-person account of his stranger-than-fiction story. Available now on Amazon and Audible. And then this is where he, this is where it just became, it's like, okay, all of that's like, okay. And then, have you ever heard this story? No.

Okay. And then he put an ad in Craigslist for the Clean Up Seattle Foundation. And he was, they were paying $22 an hour for full-time employment. And it started on whatever it was, Monday. and 20-something people applied. He sent them all a list saying, that's fine. You have to show up at five of them showed up at one area.

Five showed up in another. Five showed up in another, five at another. And he said, you have to show up with your Cadillac, with your vest. He sent them a link on where they could buy it, with the face mask, everything. Wear blue jeans and a long-sleeve shirt. And he said, that's basically your outfit.

So you have to buy the stuff first, show up there that day at this time at, you know, be there between 9 and 930, because that's when the truck arrived. And he went, he showed up too. Wow. So he said guys are walking around. They're like, man, what should we do? He said, some of the guys are actually walking like a block away picking up trash already. Like they're already picking up trash. And they were told, start working.

Your supervisor will be there between 9 and 930. He said, I just did the same thing. I just kind of hung out near the parking lot. And then I saw the truck. Yeah, I saw the truck. And he said, as soon as I saw the truck, and the guy, he said, it was like three quick steps from the alleyway, boom, boom, boom, hit him with the mace.

The guy dropped the bag, screamed. He grabbed the bag and took off running. He ran through a wooded area, and he had an inner tube in a canal. And he said, I just grabbed the inner tube, jumped on the intercube. And the inner tube took him down. he said just collided because in Seattle there's like they're kind of like little islands they have like the road closed off he said they immediately closed the bridges so they closed the bridges so nothing but police could come in he said he jumped out jumped off the inner tube ran up the

street to a a title company because he also was a real estate agent walked in the front door he said I stripped off everything walked in the front door and um she said I mean he was said as soon as I walked in, I was standing there and said, hey, I need a copy of my closing statement from last week or from two weeks ago or whatever. They were like, oh, okay. And he said, do you hear that? And they were like, what? And all he said, just then you started to hear the, who. He goes, this sirens or something. Wonder what happened? And they were like, yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I do. I hear. It's just a, he said, so I knew if I ever needed an alibi, I could say, I was in that thing when I heard this siren. Oh, that's very. Brilliant. Didn't live too, too far from the place. Anyway, so yeah, they, they searched for him and searched for him and searched for him. And he's one of those guys that whenever people talk to me and say, you know, do you ever think about doing anything again? I'm like, I'm like, yeah. And they're like, well, what would be the perfect crime? I'm like, well, I can think of lots of perfect crimes. They're like, well, then why don't you do something? I'm like, because I can't think of the fly in the ointment. That's what gets you messed up. Got you. Yep. Plan out some great,

great crimes where you've never seen me. I haven't done anything. I was nowhere near it. You've got dropped phones and you're using different computers and you never have to go in the place. You never have to do anything. But I'm saying there's just, there's always that thing you cannot think of. And in his case,

when he took off running, he'd never been arrested. He took his mask and he threw his mask down. He said, I didn't mean to. I was just running. He said, I thought I had kept it with me and it just fell out, but I was running so fast. I didn't, I didn't. He's like, the thing is nobody was chasing him.

You know, but he was gone. Like, I mean, literally before the phone call really went out, he was already on the intertube. So he dropped his mask. He said, no big deal. They got my DNA. It doesn't matter. I've never been arrested. And that mask could have come from any place anywhere.

He wasn't too worried about it. And he said, so, you know, they've got nothing. well the FBI came and they reviewed they talked to everybody and keep in mind the police show up they started arresting these guys walking around with the they're handcuffing all these guys there's 20 of them walking around what's going on hey get on the ground well yeah so you know but not him they got a lot of suspects so he he said what what ended up happening in that case was the FBI they talked to everybody and they were looking through all the the reports that came in, because people start calling in, it might be my neighbor, might be this person. I think I talked to my buddy Joe down in the bar. He said this. He said they went through it all, nothing. He said they went through it a second time when they came up empty, and they saw a report of a guy, a homeless guy, had walked up to a city worker who was working on like the sewer system and said, I know who robbed that bank. And they're like, the guy said, what?

And he said, the guy was yelling and screaming. He had a little dog. he said he sounded crazy i said man all right all right get out of here he was with the guy he was i did he did make a report the sewer i mean the guy working on this for the city made a little report hey this guy came up to me said he knows said he knows it but didn't want to talk to the police or something along those lines okay he goes well let's go try and find that guy he said they grabbed a bunch of hamburgers they went down where the homeless are in seattle and said said hey do you guys know somebody with a little dog and a beard they said oh you're talking about bobby bobby lives in a bus in the woods they go there they pull up they're walking towards the bus

Bobby walks out and says man I've been waiting weeks for you guys to or sorry months for you guys to show up is this about the bank robbery and they said yeah do you know who the guy is he's like well I don't know his name but I got a license tag oh my God he had come he said oh yeah he came like every other day right the thing and he would roll up his clothes and his mask and I got his tag number because Anthony

never even thought about the guy that was constantly walking around and lived in the woods. It's what you said, the fly in the ointment. How can you account for that? Right. And that's my problem. I'm like, look, you plan out this perfect crime and you did something you simply cannot account for and you end up and have to do 20 years. So you think, look, I'm brilliant, I'm smart. I did everything correctly. You can do everything correctly. One person, Somebody else makes a mistake or somebody else happens to see something, something you couldn't account for. Yeah. My whole thing came unglued, my scam, because a girl I was working with went into the title company with an ID that had her picture on it, signed for a mortgage, and the person that the closing agent, the title agent, looked at her ID and said, this doesn't look like you.

and she said what do you mean that's me now something's not something's off this isn't you another title agent came in looked at the picture and said that's her and she says no something's wrong this I don't think this is you I'm going to make some phone calls I'll let you know took a good picture of her took a good put it on there blew it up made a good picture the ID gave her ID back she left

how am I supposed to account for the fact that that idol person was wrong. Right. She made a mistake that unraveled my whole thing. So, anyway, it's, you know, like we were talking about the, um, on Alcatraz about the guys that had escaped. And you, you had said that, um, the bank robber, I forget his name. Robert.

Robert that we said Robert had actually known them, sat down at the table with them. Yes. So they were assigned to the same dinner table. So there's Frank Morris and the Anglin brothers. They're all there with him. And they start talking about, we're going to escape. And he's like, look, I was a scuba diver in the Navy. Y'all don't set a chance with these tides.

They're too rough. The water's too cold. And at Alcatraz, the one benefit they were given was hot showers. Other prisons, you might have to take a cold shower, but not Alcatraz, because they didn't want them to get acclimated to cold water. So he's sitting there telling them, look, if you do this, you're going to have to leave on this side of the island at this time of day when the tide is in this predicament

because it'll actually push you toward Angel Island, and that's going to be your best benefit. So what Robert did, part of his job was to go down to the lower end where they have one little guard shack right near the water, and he emptied the trash can. Well, the guard there was not supposed to bring in a newspaper. That was against the rules, but he did, and he would throw it away in that garbage can. Well, the San Francisco Chronicle published Tide Tables.

So Robert would memorize them real quick, go back to his cell, write some things down, so that he got the rhythm and the pattern so that he could best tell them, this is what you're going to need to do. You're going to try to leave during this time. This is your best shot. So he was instrumental in helping them understand the best way to go about it, which was crazy to me. Because again, as a, you know, eight-year-old and then a 12-year-old and then now thinking, I've actually talked to somebody. I've befriended somebody that had some small part into this escape.

It was just, it was awesome for me. I mean, not just as a criminologist, but just anybody. I mean, that's a fascinating story, you know. And then he told me that the birdman of Alcatraz was involved as well, that he taught them Spanish because their goal was to get to South America and they wanted to blend in as best they could and knowing the language would only help that. So, I mean, he was just an incredible person. He, a wealth of knowledge.

He was funny. You know, he was open. You know, we had a great friendship. Do you think that they made it? it? What do you think? You know, the 12-year-old me? Yes, I think they made it. Sometimes when I'm driving in my car and I start thinking about it, I'm like, yeah, you know, if they had it planned out like I believe they did and, you know, maybe a boat picked them up because there's rumors that a lot of the fishing vessels would, you know, toss out liquor and other things to get

caught in the rocks for the inmates to find. So, you know, part of me wants to believe that that's why the raft was discarded because they were pulled up onto a boat. Logically, is the water too cold and too rough and too shark-infested? Yeah, I mean, most likely. But then you're like, hey, but the family got that one Christmas card, and the expert said, yes, the writing matched. And then you had the photograph, and again, the experts said that, yeah, that looks like them. So, you know, there's some evidence that they did make it.

There's some evidence, obviously, that they didn't. You made a great point when you and I were talking privately that it's very difficult for career criminals, even if they make it to South America, to never have another issue, to never commit another crime, especially if you get there and you have no money. So they would have had to do something. So did they have plastic surgery? Did they go straight? I don't know. if they in fact made it. Can you imagine a drink back then? Oh, sure, sure. I know it was rough, though.

Oh, it would be rough and it would be horrible, but you wouldn't look the same. So I guess that would be the purpose. Yeah, very, very, I'd say unlikely that they went straight. But, you know, who knows? Or who knows, like we were saying earlier, like, you know, who knows with identification? Like, they could have been arrested three states over for bank rob for robin five banks had just given them a different name.

It's not like there was an aphist. They were going to pull up their fingerprints. I mean, they could print them, but the likelihood that they were going to compare them to these guys and they were going, you know. So especially back then, if you had any kind of history, if your identity wasn't in question, then they really didn't question. Like, if they lived in the county for two years or assumed someone's name or something, you know, they may have just been like, oh, yeah. So you live in New York. You moved here two years ago. He robbed three banks.

Yeah, throw them in jail. He does five years and gets out. Who knows? You know, Robert Chablind told me that his goal, when he was still in Alcatraz, before he was released, he wanted the prints on the bottom of his toes to be put on his fingers. I don't know how that would work, but. Well, I mean, he had a doctor supposedly said that, yeah, he could take the top and then, you know, put them on, and then his fingerprints would be completely different.

And you had other people, you know, using acid or whatnot to burn them off and get rid of them. And Robert's idea was to replace them, which he thought was, you know, a smarter idea. But, you know, when he got released, he went straight. He opened up a dive shop and went back to what he had been trained to do in the Navy and was a scuba diver and taught scuba dive and lessons the rest of his adult life. I guess if you're smart and you kind of get your head right when you're locked up, you can, you start to real. realize that you can live on very little, you know, like you really don't need. Like, I mean, I, when I left the halfway house and I stayed in the halfway house the whole time, didn't even try and go home, didn't not even, I'm staying here.

Everybody complained, they take 20% of your, like, listen, do the math. You can't live anywhere else this cheap. You know, I just sat there, did the numbers one time. I said, oh, I'm staying here the whole time. and they're feeding me. So stay there the whole time, got out, went and rented a room from somebody, you know, cheap, going cheap. I mean, I was still thrilled.

I had, you know, I had a, I had this little thing, this little magic thing here that I could watch YouTube for free. I mean, like there were so much stuff for free. For free. And I could, you know, all I have to do is kind of go back. And if somebody cuts me off in my car and for an instant, you know, you get angry. And I think, I got time. Like, it's fine.

Yeah. You sound a lot like Robert. Robert's like, I'm never locking a door again. Like, you can't upset me. You know, he was so funny. He was like, look, I got a jug of vodka over there. I've got a TV. I've got a car.

I can go do whatever I want to do when I want to do it. He said, I'll never be behind a locked door again. Life is good. Yeah. You know? I say that all the time. I'm like, people don't realize how good it is out here. They have no idea.

Right. But, you know, like, like I said, the recidivism is high, but that's because, you know, I think a lot of guys get out and they, they do well for the guys that intend to. There are other guys that I know guys that were, as soon as they got out, they were ready to commit crime. They were, that was just their life, you know, like, I'm going to be in and out of prison and, you know, I'm going to try and stay out. But I'm not getting a job at Walmart. Like, they're just like, I'm not doing it. Oh, sure. so but then there were other guys that I think they get out and I think a couple years go by and they get frustrated and they can't buy the things they want and they they lose side of the fact of how horrible prison you know is and really it's not horrible it's just it's just so isolating you have so little and and you get out here and there's such an abundance of everything that you start to think you deserve everything you get and start feeling entitled you get frustrated and their go-to move is crime

Did you ever know Frank Collada from the whole in the wall gang? He was a mafia hitman. That sounds really familiar. He's depicted in the movie Casino. No, but it's funny. I've interviewed a guy that knew like the guys that were in the movie Casino. Well, Frank and I were, you know, buddies too. And one time we were at lunch.

I'm sorry, are these guys that you've met because of your podcast? No, these are people that I've met because of my job. I might be investigating a case or something and I feel like you're going to have information that I need and then they just turn out to be incredible people and are, you know, interesting and, you know, they are who they are, right? Right.

But I mean, everybody has more than one side to them. But anyway, we're at lunch one day and he looks at me and he says, hey, do you mind if I give your kids some advice? And I said, of course not. you know, please. So he looks at my daughter who's 10, and he says, never trust a man ever. So I thought that's pretty good. You know, we'll talk about it a little bit more later. But, you know, men can come at you with ulterior motors. So between now and, you know, 25, just keep that in mind. So then he looked right at my son and he said, and this goes to what you were talking about,

a minute ago. He looks at him and he says, reading never got me paid. So my son, of course, took that to mean, I'm never doing homework again. It's a waste of time. But what he was trying to say was the education piece was never going to garner him the money that crime would. And so to your point, when you're talking about somebody that gets released and they're frustrated, McDonald's is never going to give them the money that they won't. That's never going to get you a Lamborghini. That's never going to get you a penthouse. It's never going to get you the Rolex.

It's not. Right. And so your mindset has to change. And that's the biggest thing that I've seen. I mean, Robert, his mindset changed. His thing was, I can walk out in my backyard. And nobody's going to tell me I can't go out there. I can get in a car and drive.

So for him, that was worth millions. You know, but the person that is still, you know, chasing that, get rich quick, you know, calling, you know. Yeah. Oh, like, I feel like, like, you know, although I do, I work all the time, you know, but that's what I feel like, I don't really, but I don't feel like it's working. Does that make sense? Like, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not laying block. I'm not hanging drywall. I'm not on a roof.

In Florida, I mean, you might as well, you must be a sadist if you're going to be a roofer in Florida. I hear you. So, you know, I barely go outside during the day. I almost really never leave. I'm actually going to steal my car because I was talking to my wife and I was like, listen, I'm paying like, like, $400 for the car payment, another $200 for, for um insurance this is ridiculous i'm like i never drive she drives up to the gym in the morning and back i said if i had to go somewhere it would be cheaper to uber i could uber eight times a

month i could leave my house twice to tampa and back and still not pay six hundred dollars correct five or six hundred dollars whatever it comes to so anyway uh um but yeah i i basically never leave the house. Like, I, I do this. You know, I, I write, uh, I write articles. I do research articles. And, um, you know, I paint. Like, think about what I do. Yes. I talk to people. Yeah. You know, I talk to people. I write stories. And, you know, I paint. Like, honestly, it really, like, do you really have a job? I mean, I make my own schedule. Right. It's, It's, it's really, like, the idea that I was, and anybody who's ever watched my show has probably heard me say this 30 times. The fact that, you know, I think remind, every time

I start to get cocky or arrogant, I kind of remind myself, like, bro, five years ago, you were laying in a bunk bed in prison, thinking to yourself, how am I going to make a living? Like, I was telling myself, you're going to get a job at McDonald's and you're going to work your way to another job that you like and maybe you'll sell used cars, you're going to live in someone's spare room, and you're going to be happy. You're going to be thankful. Yeah. So, you know, and I would tell myself that. And so the idea that I'm making a living, goofing off, my, my wife says, you live a cat's life. Like, you, you take nats. You, you, you stood on the couch. You, and I'm like, that's what you think I do during the day? She's like, I do. That is awesome. You know. Yeah. But, you,

your story is inspired, and I think that's why it's so important. But it's the truth. If you think about five years ago, you're laying in that cot, and people think, oh, when you get out, you're never going to be able to find anything. Your life's going to be crap. It's going to be whatever. And you have people telling you, why don't you try this? Why don't you go back? Why don't you pull off the perfect job? I mean, really? Thanks for the help, folks, because you're trying to get me peached again. Like, why in the world? But what you're telling people is, is you don't have to have, you know, the corner office. You don't have to bus rots.

You don't have to be laying tar on a roof. Good God, Amati. I mean, I can't think of anything worse in Florida, right? Yeah. I mean, I can't. And I know, like, our dad, we would be driving and he would see somebody doing that type of job. And all he would say is, girls, do your homework.

I mean, that's hard work, you know. And again, I think for people that are listening to you that are maybe going to get out in six months or a year, okay, there are things you can do. And I think that's important for people to hear. I do. Yeah, I, you know, you say the inspiration thing. I hear the inspiration all the time. I get emails from guys saying how inspirational my story is. I'm like, and I'm always like, I don't, I've never once tried to be inspirational.

I interview guys that went to prison, got out of prison, and they'll sit here and they'll talk about, they'll, they'll, they'll preach in spirit, like preach, like, it's so obvious that they're trying to be, you know, but now I, I, it's all about the kids now. And it's all, it's like, you know, and letting them know not to do this. And I'm like, all right, all right, stop. It's so, I just feel like it's disingenuous. It's like, stop. That's why you work. You're not trying. Yeah, I'm, so I'm like, but I keep getting these guys that come, but I also get the guys that, that send me the emails that say, bro, like, I'll give you however much money you want if you'll just tell me how to do this, how to do that, help me set it up, help me do this. And I'm always like, are you serious? Like, you do understand that if you go out right now and just do anything, the feds are just going to add my name to the indictment. I mean, they're going to look at your phone. phone. They're going to see that we've spoken six times on the phone. They're going to see that we had correspondence. They're going to, like, they don't even have to tell the jury. They can just say, oh, by the way, he was in communication with this guy. They're going to like, add his name. That's then even if I said, hey, you know what, I'm going to trial. Wow, what a mistake that is. I can't take the stand. Because they're like, oh, you took the, oh, by the way, jury, now that he's taken the stand, we're going to list all the things he's been convicted of. Don't convict me again, even if there's no new evidence. And he was talking to this guy who got caught doing the same thing he was doing. The jury, even if I was on the jury, I'd be like, yeah, bro, I don't, hell of a coincidence. I'm like, don't talk to me about that. You sound like my husband.

My husband laughs. I mean, I've got plenty of prosecutors and judges and special agents in my phone. But I also have the Frank Calatas of the world and Robert Shablin, Johnny Lee Cleary. And he says, what if something legitimately happens to you? And they go through your phone and you've had contact with a hitman. You've had contact with this person in a hate group. You've had contact with this person. You know, but again, as they say, game recognizes game.

You know, a con man is going to look at you and understand. A prosecutor is going to look at you and understand. So, you know, part of me, again, you are inspirational, and I think your story is important, and it's important for both sides. Because I have people that, you know, sometimes give me a hard time, like, how can you possibly say this criminal is your friend? Because he was. Right. You know, he was good to me. He was funny.

He was engaging. He taught me a lot. I mean, that's a good friend. And, yeah, he had a pass, but, you know, For the grace of God, right? Like, I started somewhat as a con artist. I'll take a story. You'll enjoy this.

So I saw in a weekly reader where if you had chinchillas, you could make thousands of dollars. And that seemed like a get rich quick, which sounded good to me. I didn't want to work hard. I mean, I was, you know, six or seven years old. So I called the 1-800 number, and I wanted to order the whole thing. Give me the chinchillas, the inkabas. the incubators, the lights, I need it all, because I'm going to be super rich. So then they said, okay, what credit card?

And I was like, well, I don't know anything about a credit card. And she goes, well, we can send it COD. And I said, well, what's that? And she goes, that's cash on delivery. Let's do that. So we're, you know, in six to eight weeks, well, you know, when you're that little, that might as well be two years. I mean, I basically forgot about doing it.

All of a sudden, there's a knock at our door one Saturday. and this person is delivering live animals is stamped on the crate. And my dad is like, what? And they're like, these are the chinchillas and the incubators and all the wires and the lights and the feed. And, you owe us, whatever it was. I don't remember if it's $175 or what it was. But at the time, you know, in 1970, it was a ton of money. And my dad's like, you can take these things right home back.

You know, I'm not paying you for this stuff. Well, I'm standing there. you're missing the opportunity of a lifetime. We're going to be rich. And, of course, he's cracking up. But he's also like, you cannot be ordering stuff. You know, much less COD, and you probably were not going to make a dime. And, you know, I was frustrated for a good couple of years because, okay, we're just going to stay broke.

Chilis? He would not get with the program. And I'm like, sir. Come on. Bent is the story of John J. Bozziak's phenomenal life of crime. Inked from head to toe, with an addiction to strippers and fast Cadillacs, Boziac was not your typical computer geek. He was, however, one of the most cunning scammers,

counterfeiters, identity thieves, and escape artists alive, and a major thorn in the side of the U.S. Secret Service as they fought a war on cybercrime. With a savant-like ability to circumvent banking security and stay one step ahead of law enforcement. Boziak made millions of dollars in the international cyber underworld, with the help of the Chinese and the Russians. Then, leaving nothing but a John Doe warrant

and a cleaned-out bank account in his wake, he vanished. Bozziak's stranger-than-fiction tale of ingenious scams and impossible escapes, of brazen run-ins with the law and secret desires to straighten out and settle down, makes his story a true crime con game that will keep you guessing. Bent, how a homeless teen became one of the cybercrime industry's most prolific counterfeiters. Available now on Amazon and Audible. You know, there's other things that I tried. I saw a truck and it said, pine straw for sale.

Our yard is eat up with pine straw. So if you're going to buy it, right? And then I went to my neighbors who were elderly and I said, you know, can I wreck your yard? They're like, sure. and I'm like, suckers, because they don't realize people pay for this. Well, again, my dad had to explain, honey, you're not going to make any money.

I mean, you can rake every yard in this community, you know. So anyway, he's the reason I'm still broke. I mean, that's just it. So we all have a little con artist. You know what I mean? Yeah. And I think we all, we all have. good. We all have a little, maybe not so good, but people are mostly good.

Ugh. So, okay, so I don't know how we got on top of it. So when did you start? Okay. When did you this? We're 50 minutes into this one. Okay. There's 25 on the other one. How did you start? Um, I always, you know, again, I read everything I could and, um, when I was 18, the very first criminal justice gig, I guess, that I ever had, um, I was hired to be a store detective at a large department store called Riches. At 18? Yeah, because they wouldn't suspect me. It was great. I had a great time, learned a ton.

Um, from there, I worked at the greater E. Rick Crisis Center because they would. actually allow me to volunteer there at 18, and I could actually interview victims. And I worked directly with a gentleman by the name of Detective Black. He was extraordinary to me. He taught me how to interview. He taught me how to write a report. And there were oftentimes that I was able to get information from the victim that he was not able to. So that was just laying the groundwork for what was to come. And then as I worked through college, I had different internships. I had one with the FBI, one with the Secret Service. I just had a great time. And then my first

real job was with the Crime Commission. And I just never looked back. And this year is my 40th year doing something in criminal justice. Okay. Did you ever work for like the, who do you work for now? You said you're currently. I worked for a metropolitan Atlanta police department. And I'm there a crime scene investigator. Okay. How long have you worked there? I've been there eight years this week, actually. Okay.

Do you ever work for the Sheriff's Department or? I worked for the Fulton County Sheriff's Department for eight years in special ops. I worked for the Crime Commission. I worked as a probation officer. I've done a lot of really interesting. I've had a really lucky career. When I was with the Crime Commission, I was assigned to the major case division, and we had a prosecutor there that was just a spitfire. And the first time I ever met the prosecutor

was about 2.45 at the morning at a crime scene. And this little sports car comes flying up, and this person jumps out. And they're like, what do you got what do you have? What can I do to help? And I'm like, what in the world is that? I mean, I'd never see anything like it. I'd never seen at that time a prosecutor outside the courthouse. They always stayed in the ivory tower, as it were. And that prosecutor turned out to be Nancy Grace. Oh, my God. So, you know, I've had a lot of luck. I mean, I was in charge of the Olympic crisis response team, which nobody would have ever cared anything about, except we had a bomb. And then that matriculated into training with the State Department, and I got to train every single Olympic crisis response team from then on. So,

you know, luck is, luck is good. So, Nancy Grace, I wrote a story about a guy named Frank Amadeo. Frank Amadeo is a, the short version is he's a rapid cycling bipolar with features of schizophrenia. He's a lawyer and he was a tax attorney in Atlanta when Nancy Grace was the, I guess the attorney, the estate attorney. a state attorney or she was just assistant district attorney okay right and so he ended up having a a bout of depression for like a couple of weeks like two three weeks like you couldn't get out of bed and this would happen every few years to him sure so he so he was basically the one running he had two partners but they were pretty much useless in this uh this um it was a a tax attorney kind of like

H&R block, but for bankruptcy. Okay. I keep saying taxed it. For bankruptcy, sorry. He wasn't a tax attorney. He was a bankruptcy attorney. Sorry. And they were kind of trying to do like a mill, right?

They're just running them through. Well, anyway, he was the one who was basically doing most of the work. So when he disappears for two weeks, he was in the hospital for like a week. Then he wouldn't get out of bed at his house. So by the time he shows back up, this whole, everything's falling apart. Anyway, they ended up pilfering the account where people were paying money in to the account. He says, I don't know what's true and what's not true. He says his partners ended up taking the money.

He ended up saying something like he ended up getting $30,000 of it but didn't realize how they were paying. I might forget exactly what the story was. But in the end, the place closed. There were a lot of unresolved bankruptcies. And Nancy Grace came in and investigated the entire thing and tried to get Frank indicted. Friday indict him had held a couple of grand juries, but they wouldn't indict because I guess he wasn't really on the accounts and even, you know, so wasn't sure. So, but she was so upset about it. She went to the U.S. attorney and gave him all the information.

And the U.S. attorney was able to indict him. and so that's that's kind of you know that's my nancy grace story i'm sure you have hundreds way better than that but she actually made an attempt to indict this guy and then when she was so frustrated and irritated that she she couldn't indict if she's like oh well i got you and she went give it because you know the u.s attorney obviously the feds have a much more dependent ability to on a lot of their um a lot of the federal laws i had never heard that story i just I don't know him. It sounds sad all the way around, but I will tell you, she comes from a place being a victim

of crime that if she sees victimization in any way, financial, physical, emotional, she doesn't tend to let loose of it. And I tell people a lot that if you had a child missing, would you want her own it? Right. And 100% of the time people say yes, if it's their child. Because she's not going to turn loose. She's not going to stop arguing. She's not going to stop calling people out.

And she's got such a heart. I mean, I know her, know her. I just told you that's how we met. But, I mean, we have maintained our friendship. And I will tell you just one story. And I don't think she would care if I told this. But back in the day, she took it. files home. So if you ever went to her house, she would have these files sometimes spread out.

And we were there one night talking about a case, and she literally touched every single file and prayed over it. She prayed for the officer. She prayed for the judge. She prayed for the victim. She prayed for herself. You know, please let me do the right thing. Let everybody do the right thing and let there be justice. And that's one of those things that if you don't, if you only know the TV persona, you sometimes think, man, she's just, you know, a bulldog. But then when you think about, you know, she was so close to being married and she was so happy and she was so young and she was innocent. I mean, you're talking about a girl from making Georgia that went to college at Valda State that had her whole world not flipped upside down,

but ripped apart, that instead of just go. going home and not being able to get out of the bed, decided, okay, my fiance was murdered, who was a baseball star, and I was going to be an English teacher. Well, now I'm going to go to law school, and I'm going to make sure this doesn't happen to another person. Right. Well, everybody's hard on law enforcement, you know, until someone breaks in their house. That's right. Or their attack, where they need them.

And then it's defund the police until, sure until my their you know my neighborhood is overridden with crime yep and then it's where the police it's like okay well she were at that protest last month yeah um so yeah uh so yeah i can see her uh i mean i i could see wanting that prosecutor after he was any even frank we were i wrote i wrote a story on him and we were incarcerated together and he was like he's like she she had two grand jury or two grand juries two yeah she couldn't indict me two and he was like she just wouldn't let it go it's like well that's her you got indicted he's like i didn't even know i didn't know anything about it and right um but we're we're talking about that you're in prison yeah

yeah yeah we're talking in prison yeah um but anyway yeah he's uh he was he was he's an interesting character yeah you'd have a field day with him Um, I mean, he's actually incarcerated. And I wrote a story about him, by the way. It's called it's insane. I actually wrote a book, but I wrote a synopsis and a book. Uh, I expanded the synopsis, you know, once I got out of prison, but I wrote a synopsis in prison. It's probably 12 or 1,300 words, maybe, maybe 1,400 words. And it's on my website if you, if you ever want to read it. And if you don't want to read, I have a, I have an audio version. Anyway, he, he, he, Since he was in his teens, he has believed that God is talking to him, and he is preordained to be emperor of the world. Now, remember, he's got features of schizophrenia, goes to college, gets a degree, very smart. Sure. It's a law degree, gets out, starts this bankruptcy thing, bankruptcy kind of firm, and it ends up failing after what. whatever, five, six years, he then becomes a venture capitalist. He then gets indicted. He goes to

goes to a camp for like a year, gets out. He then gets out of that, it becomes a venture, sorry, becomes a venture capitalist, puts together a massive, massive company. He starts raising money for his company, which is ultimately going to basically, you know, it's like specter. He is expecting it to dominate, economically dominate the U.S. and then spread throughout all continents. And, you know, and he's in, listen, he also has a military wing. Like, he's got his own private military. They've got contracts in, in Afghanistan. He's, it's, you know, it's, it's a massive operation. I've got pictures of him with Bush at the White House. And I don't mean like a photo off. I mean, like, they're sitting in the Roosevelt.

room like you know a group of people he went he would help sponsor a nato summit he it's just a massive massive undertaking this company ultimately he ends up he's doing most of this by the way by embezzling money by not paying federal income taxes employment taxes to the tune of two hundred million dollars wow eventually the whole thing The feds come in, the whole conspiracy behind it. He gets indicted. He goes to prison for 22 years. That's where I met him.

So he's a fascinating guy. 200 million. Yeah. It's, oh, listen, and if you read the story, it's insane. Like, he would, the things he was telling me. And then, of course, I would order the Freedom of Information Act. And I'd order the transcripts. And I'd get the transcripts and the Freedom of Information Act.

You've got, you know, FBI reports where they're talking about how he's trying to buy, you know, airplane. He's trying to buy like, um, he's, uh, F-16s and F-15s. He's negotiating contracts to buy these used, you know, they gut them. They take all the electronics out. You can still buy the planes. He's talking about putting them in Cyprus, you know. He wants to buy, you know, 25 of them. He backed a coup in the Congo.

There's a, there's a documentary about that. Yeah. Anyway, he's fascinating, but so back to you. Can I ask you, do you, can you, do you have any cold cases that are interesting to you that you would, that you could talk about? Absolutely. I think one that I'll talk about right now is Melissa Wolfenberger. And the reason I'll talk to you about her is because we've been having a theme this whole conversation. but Melissa went missing and she was married and her mother could not get any police department to take a missing person's report because she's married, she's grown. And if she doesn't want to have contact with you, she doesn't have to have contact with you. And if she wants to disappear or run away, that's not illegal.

But her mom kept saying something's not right. She wouldn't have just left her children. she wouldn't, you know, stop having contact with me. Like, even if she wanted to leave her husband, that's one thing, but she wouldn't abandon her family. So this goes on a while, and finally, she badgers her own police department enough, or finally a detective says, fine,

I will take a report that she's missing, but I can't investigate it. She didn't live in our jurisdiction. There's no sign of a crime at all, but I will take it for paper trail. Well, she went to Atlanta police and then said the same thing. She's missing. And Atlanta said, okay, since they've taken a police report that she's missing, we'll do the same thing, but that's as far as we can go. We've been by the house.

There's no sign of anything. They've moved away is what it looks like. Fast forward, a driver delivering for UPS sees a ripped garbage bag and a skull in the middle of the street. he stops the skull is misidentified as a Caucasian male so it sits on a shelf because it's not pertaining to Melissa right fast forward again months later that was April the skull was found in June four more trash bags were found each containing an arm or a leg some dental records were done

comes back to be Melissa now this has been going on for years and years the person that has been helping me understand the crime understand the players understand what law enforcement could and could not do and most importantly

understand possibly the number one suspect is her father her father I thought you were to say her husband no no he's probably on the suspect list but the person that's helping me understand

everything who's literally helping me on the cape is her father who is the flit river killer so we've been communicating via letter because he's in prison so again it's one of those things who understands a killer better than another killer who understands these principal players better than him who understands who's probably got a beef with him who wanted retribution or who had a background that was indicative of somebody that might at one point snap possibly. So, again, everybody has a gift. Your story is helping people. Hopefully my background can help people.

Nancy Grace's background is helping people. Well, the Flint River Keller, his background, prayerfully, is helping people. And in this particular instant, his own daughter. Wow. How insane is that that his own daughter ends up getting murdered? Listen, Matt, it's the only case in history that I can find where a serial killer becomes a true victim of crime, meaning somebody in his immediate family is murdered. Right. And then he reaches out to law enforcement for help because the detective that originally arrested him for his murders, he asked, when she, was still missing, can you find her?

He said, you caught me after 25 years. Can you find my daughter? So it's an incredible story. And it's one of those that I think will be in my career. It's going to be the only one like it. It's the only one in history like it. But again, sometimes people in prison have the information you need. Yeah.

What a great. If there was an actual resolution, wouldn't that be, that would be just, what a, what a phenomenally unique story, you know, bizarre, but just. Bizarre. Right. Like, you can't make it. That's, that's a great thing about true crime. Like, you know how many times I've been writing someone's story or interviewing them and you just look up and you go, what? Exactly.

You couldn't even come up with it. Like, this sounds so insane. It's almost fake. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, if I sat down and was watching some show and this was the premise, I'd be like, ah, come on, never going to happen. Never going to happen. Like with Robert Chablis, I was the only person in law enforcement he would fool with.

When he would even go back to Alcatraz, he didn't want to shake hands with the old guards. He would openly tell you, I don't have any use for anybody in law enforcement. We are not friends. I mean, it was literally an us versus. them in his life. So I get that. But when you again, you've got somebody that they chose the path they chose for whatever reason. But now, you know, just like Nancy Grace, Nancy was on one path and it got flipped. You know, Carl was on one path and it got flipped. So at this point, you need the help of the very people you can't stand. You know, it's all good. And then maybe prayer

fearfully, we can see each other a little different. I, it's funny, I was just to say, how small the world is and how, you know, it's, I had, I wrote a story about a guy whose best friend had, he had overdosed, you know, like everybody thought it was an overdose, but everybody didn't think it was over, the police said it was an overdose. He and everybody else was like, it's not an overdose. This, this doesn't make sense. like they're like oh well then he killed himself they're like they didn't kill himself like you know and then a couple of a year or two later the guy wrote the story about his name was vitali joseph vitali he gets arrested and he's in in the u.s. marshals holdover waiting to be sentenced

and he befriends or a guy kind of starts talking to him befriends him and that guy ends up he's like oh what do you do oh i'm a stockbroker i um I raise venture capital and do this. No, okay. They have a little conversation. He's like, oh, I knew a stockbroker. Oh, you did? He's like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, and he starts telling him about how they kind of

befriended him and we're hanging out and we're partying and doing drugs because a lot of people, this is in Palm Beach. Palm Beach is notorious for all these. Listen, half the guys in Palm Beach are con artists. So he's down there and, you know, they're in that industry, a lot of drugs, a lot of, you So the guy ends up talking about him, he said, and I start to realize that he's talking about my buddy. And he, you know, so I kind of keep saying, oh, yeah, yeah, you know, oh, do you know so and so? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So we have a whole conversation. The guy ends up telling him, yeah, that guy owed this girl that I used to mess with a lot of money. He said, I ended up having to do him in. And he's like, he's like, really? Like he doesn't know he knows him. He never said, I know that guy. Wow. And he ends up saying that he, and he goes, how did you do it?

He said, I gave him a hot shot. And he was like, when he told him, he said, I didn't know what that was. He's like a hot shot. He's like, yeah, yeah, you know, I such and such. And, you know, I did this. He's like, then we went through the house. We got like 30 grand. We now keep in mind to his girlfriend, your fiancee, when they found the body,

she, of course, immediately said it's, you understand he was murdered. The house was robbed. We're missing 30,000 in cash. We're missing. And she listed all of these items. Wow. And the problem was is he was doing drugs. He did die of a drug overdose.

So the police looked at twice. And they said, you know, look, I get it. But the guy's not talking. You know, by the way, he was back in for robbing banks. He'd gotten out of prison, like we had got out of prison in the halfway house, started robbing banks, got picked up again. In the meantime, he kills this guy, gets picked up again, and he's waiting. sentencing what happens to be the guy's best friend or good friend if you can have a

best friend when you're in your 30. Yeah. So, I mean, what a small, like those, that's one of those things that you just, you couldn't. That's right. Those coincidences that happen, you go, how. That's right. How odd is that? What a small world. It is a small world. And the guy would say something. Of course, he's saying something because he's thinking, what are the chance of this guy. Yeah. Nobody, just some guy in prison. We're both waiting. He doesn't know enough. He said, but I did know. I knew all the people that he knew. I knew who it was. He has even mentioned the name of his subdivision, specifically told him the name of the subdivision. I mean, like he was naming off all of these things. Anyway. Crazy. Yeah. It's a, it's, it's an odd,

odd world. So yeah, I love true crime. It's those types of things that you go, that's, that's bizarre. There's so many bizarre things. Boy, that, that story, that's amazing. That's got to be a resolution. You need to figure that one. We're hoping. We're hoping. I'll text you when I have an update. All right. For sure. And you have a podcast, right? I do. It's called Zone 7. what do you what do you talk about on the podcast cold cases um that we've worked and zone seven came about because in the Atlanta police department there's six police zones so back in the day before cell phones if we wanted to all meet afterwards you know you just couldn't go over the radio and say hey everybody we're going to meet at the bar tonight so we would say let's five nine at zone seven

after shift so that way it would be acceptable um and then zone seven kind of became came this group of people that you trust, that have your back, that are not going to, you know, do harm to you by talking about you or setting you up or any of that kind of stuff. The people you can literally go to, you know, not unlike a criminal organization, you know, you want those people that are going to tell you the truth that are going to protect you, that are going to, you know, not talk crap about you when you're not in the room, the people that only want to help you, whether it's on a case or, you know, further your career or whatever. So your zone seven is, you know, pretty small, but it's a powerful

group. So that's why I call it zone seven, because the people that I have my guest are people that are in my zone seven. Okay. So how many people are, is it just, are you the host or are there other people involved? I'm the host and I bring people in because they have something to do with the case we're talking about. They either have an expertise in whatever it is or they helped me or we search the scene together. There's some reason they're there. And that'll come out during the, you know, interview. Okay. How often do you, do you post? Like, how long have you been doing it? I've only been doing it six months yesterday. And I post on Wednesdays once a week. Okay. And is it on YouTube? No. It's just, you know, eye hard and Spotify, that sort of thing.

You got to put it on YouTube. You got to get the stream yard thing. You've got to learn how to do that. I figure it out. I couldn't use the telephone when I got out. Clear. Roger then. There was no iPhone.

There were no iPhones when I went to prison. When I went to prison, YouTube had been out for like a year. I'd never been on it that I know of that I could recall. Facebook had been out for like a year. I was on the run. And I remember my girlfriend said, hey, do you want to get a Facebook page or this thing, Facebook? People are moving from MySpace to Facebook. And I was like, I don't think that's a good idea.

I'm wanted. It's probably not a good idea. I don't know. Feel bad. I'm not, you know, I'm not an expert on being wanted, but it feels like a bad idea. It does feel like a bad idea. Yeah. You know, I'm not an expert.

But so, and then YouTube had, you know, like it had just come out. Like, you weren't readily watching it. You know, people weren't seeing. Like, I don't ever recall. knowing what it was but I do know when I've looked back on it like oh no it was out but I don't ever recall really hearing about it till I until I was years into prison and then and then podcast wasn't a thing because that's a new word that wasn't even invented until like right 2008 or 9 or 10 or something right it's like they put two words together and then I would meet

guys iPhones didn't come out till like 2009 so I was already were locked up like three years. I remember there was a guy one time telling me he because he was there for like almost like a half a million to a million dollars in an iPhone crimes. He would he would get a corporation, have people go in and get corporate accounts. Like they'd give them like nine iPhones on corporate accounts. They didn't have to have a, they didn't run the credit, nothing, which is corporation. And so they'd get the phone, didn't go on their on their credit or anything. So they'd give them the phone for nothing. So they get like nine and he had to send people in over and over and then he'd sell the, he'd pull out the SIM cards or whatever. And then he'd sell the phones overseas. They'd give him like $400 for like $1,000 or $500 for $1,000. So he did this to the tune of like $5 or $600,000 or something. And so he was trying to explain it to me and I was like, right, right, right. He's like, you know how in the, he kept saying, well, you know how on the iPhone this? You know how on the iPhone? I said, and after about five minutes ago, I said, listen, listen, your crime didn't exist when I got locked up.

Wow. I'd been locked up at that point, like 10 years. Yes. And he was like, oh, wow, bro. How long you've been in the year? It was like, of course, he's a kid. He's like in his late 20s. So he's like, you know, haven't they always existed?

Like, no. No. Yeah, that's crazy. But yeah, it's, uh, yeah, yeah. So yeah, there was a, so if I can figure out how phones work and iPhones and YouTube and all that, like, come on. Roger that. You really have.

I'm on it today. You know, that's a great. I love the guys who are like, you know, you know, well, I'm not really a techie person. Stop it. Stop. I'm doing it today. I will start learning. Yeah, I was amazing.

YouTube, you can look anything up. I can say anything to YouTube. And if somebody's made a video, there's 1500 videos on anything that I ask it. Yep. I learned how to edit and do everything on on YouTube. No, you're right. I didn't read a manual. I just said, you know, Final Cut Pro, how do you stack videos?

And there's like 1,500 of them. I'm like, wow. Well, all right, I know you've spent way more time than you expect it to spend. I've enjoyed every second of it, Matt. Absolutely. And listen, when you come to Atlanta next week, call me. I would love for you to come by and I'll show you the police station. Give you a ride.

We'll have to be nice to ride in the front of the police car. Absolutely. You know, it's funny as like when you first said Atlanta, I thought, my first thought was I stole $400,000 in Atlanta. That was the first place when the FBI showed at my office, the first place I went to in Alpharetta, Georgia. Alpharetta. Alpharetta. I rented somebody's house that was worth about $200,000. I went down to Fulton County, satisfied the two loans he had on his house,

made a fake ID in his name. Name was Michael Shanahan. And then I called three hard money lenders, three or four? There's three. Three hard money lenders had him come out to the house and borrowed all three mortgages at the same time, and borrowed like roughly $400,000, deposited the money into a bunch of banks, pulled the money out in cash, and then took off. And then the Secret Service showed up, you know, a few months, maybe a month or so later.

And yeah, yeah. Do you remember, well, she was a U.S. attorney. Gail McKenzie? I don't know, Gail. No. Yeah, she was in the U.S. attorney. Or she was an U.S. attorney. But the Secret Service, the officer on my case was Andrea Peacock.

I know Andrew Peacock. She was all very nice. Oh, yeah, she's very nice. She used to be with the Cobb County DA's office when I was there. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah, she was interviewed by American Greed when they did an episode. Yeah.

Very polite. Oh, yeah. She's nice. She's polite. You know, everybody always talks about the FBI. I was like, the FBI, they were all mean. They were all kind of, kind of, no, not really. There was just one FBI.

She was very nice to it. But, yeah. But the Secret Service, they were very polite, very professional. You know, not mean-spirited. I've met some mean-spirited people. Yeah. My involvement with the Secret Service has always been the same. Very professional, very nice.

You know, they understand exactly what they're there to do. And, you know, it's all good. There's no arrogance. I've worked with other agencies, you know, it can be a little, you know. I know. Because even in my world, I'm not a fed. Yeah, well, you know, just saying, you know, because you're not a fed. you know, sometimes you're treated differently because you're a little, you know, bitty city, but, you know, whatever we're doing still got you here.

So you're welcome. But I appreciate this. This has been fabulous, wonderful. Okay. Yeah, definitely. I'm actually, I think I'm going to Atlanta again in August also because there's a cybercrime convention there. Okay. And they're going to have a bunch of people.

And so I'm supposed to go to that too. Yeah. Excellent. Well, I'm right here if you need something. You know, again, I would love for you to come by and let's hang out.