Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - Why I Left The Mormon Church...
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Transcript
Discussion (0)
He was arrested for writing bad banknotes, selling magic rocks and crystals.
He was a con artist. This is literally how every cult starts. Every cult is started by.
So I was born into a very devout Mormon family. My parents are still devout. Some of my sisters
are still devout. Most of my cousins and aunts and uncles and everyone else is still devout.
So when I left, it caused a little bit of heartache. But growing up in the church in the 70s and 80s,
was a lot different than it is now.
Oh, it's always hard to know how much detail I want to go into.
There's a lot of conversation right now in Mormonism about Bishop's interviews.
So when you're a kid, you have somebody that is assigned to be, when you're a Mormon,
you have someone that's assigned to be the Bishop of the Ward.
And it can be like the guy that owns the tire store or the UPS driver.
And the church regional directors supposedly are inspired,
by God to call who they want to be the bishop.
And when you're a kid, you have to have bishop's interviews.
You have to go in and talk to the bishop and he asks you questions.
You're alone with this man in this room who can just be, like I say, a school teacher,
you know, anybody.
My dad's been a bishop several times.
And most of these men are very good men.
I always, it breaks my heart a little bit when I see people really bashing the church
because the church is, everyone always focuses.
on the bad people in every situation. You know that. I don't have to tell you that.
I'm Catholic. A hundred percent. There can be, you know, 10,000 good people and 1,000 people
that are not so good or even 100 people that are not so good. And that's what gets all the focus.
And it's the same way in Mormonism. Well, growing up, I was a wild, kind of a wild child. I've
always had a very loud voice. I'm, you know, I sing and I was a performer. And I was a little boy crazy.
And the bishops knew that about me.
And they knew I was one of those girls that they could maybe ask a few questions to, you know, that were not appropriate to be asking a child.
Some bishops never did this.
But I had two, in particular, from the time I was a little girl until the time I was older, that would ask very inappropriate questions.
You know, are you kissing boys?
Are you using your tongue?
Are, you know, and even farther than that.
and they would use the word back then the word this word makes my skin crawl they would use
the word petting oh oh i just hate that word but that was the word that they used i don't know
that came from your culture too but what is what is petting is like fondling each other like first base
second base type of that was the word that they used was petting and it just makes my skin crawl
but um and and i thought in my mind it was like even as a little kid i was like this doesn't
feel right. Like I know there's something, this isn't right. Like my dad wouldn't ask me these
questions. You know, my mom wouldn't ask me these questions. So why is this strange man asking
me these questions? And as I got a little bit older, the, I don't know how familiar you are
with the Joseph Smith story or the origins of the church. I mean, I'm fair, I have a very, a basic
understanding that he found these plates and they were gold plates and he only he could read them. And so
I have the, you know, and that's how the book of Mormon was written by him transcribing the plates.
Yes.
Right.
And in the church you're taught that there's only, that he told one story and it was that he went into the woods to pray as a 14-year-old boy and that God and Jesus, who in Mormonism, God and Jesus are not the same person.
Mormons don't believe in the Godhead.
So God and Jesus are different people.
God and Jesus appeared to Joseph Smith and told him, none of the churches on earth are true.
and you have been chosen to start the true church.
I don't ever mean to be disrespectful,
but I just have to giggle a little bit
because this is literally how every cult starts.
Every cult is started by a man who says
God speaks to him and only him
and that no one else is right
and he is the only one with the full truth.
So Joseph goes into the woods
and then later on he comes out
and the story goes that an angel appears to him
and tells him that there are these ancient golden plates
buried in the hill and leads him to these gold plates. Now, Joseph Smith never imagined the
internet. He never imagined science. He never imagined what would come later on. If the golden plates
were to actually have existed, they would have weighed, I think almost a thousand pounds. It would
have been for there to be enough gold there to write out what was written. There's a story of him
picking the plates up, wrapping them in a dish cloth, and then running from people that were trying
to take them from him, it would not have been possible. So even if they were real, which I do not
believe they were, he would not have been able to run with these plates. Now, as a child growing up in
the 70s and 80s, I was taught that Joseph Smith used a tool called the Urim and Thumum, and it's
basically a pair of spectacles and like a breastplate. And he would put these spectacles on and
read the golden plates and these spectacles would translate from the ancient language into
English. That is actually not what Joseph Smith told people. That is a whitewashed version of the
church because the church doesn't like what Joseph Smith said. Joseph Smith told people,
and there are actual versions of this and documentation of this, that he had a magic rock
and he would put the golden plates on the table in front of him with a screen so the person's transcribing
could not see the golden plates because only he was allowed to see them. He would take this magic rock
and put it in the bottom of a top hat and you can find paintings of this online and then put his
face into the top hat and the rock would glow and would show him in English what the translation
was. So as the church grew, the church decided that story was just a little too crazy. And so they
came up with the Yeram and Thumum. And that was the story that was then spread. Joseph Smith was a
folk magic believer. And if you know anything about that time, it's not unusual. But it is unusual
to believe in those things now. He also was arrested dozens of times for telling people he was a
Water Witch, that he had this special power by God where, you know, he would hold the,
I can't remember what they call it. It's like a stick that looks like a Y.
Yeah, yeah. Find water. And the stick drops down and points to our waters in the ground.
And he was arrested many times for swindling people and telling them that he could find water
on their property. That was a big deal back then to have a well on your property.
He was arrested for writing bad bank notes. He was arrested. He was arrested.
for selling magic rocks and crystals. He was a con artist. He was a folk magician, you know. And
the church doesn't like that origin story. And so they changed it. The other thing that the church
changed, and I did not find this out until much later on in my adulthood, is that Joseph Smith
actually told 12 different versions, 10 or 12, depending on who you ask, different versions of what
is called the first vision. And that is when he goes into the woods and God and Jesus appear to him.
First, he said it was a pillar of fire, then it was an angel, then it was an angel and God.
Then it was God and a pillar of fire.
He tells all these different versions and the version that the church teaches is not a version
that he actually told.
So when I got about 14 years old and I was already kind of in trouble at school sometimes
and stuff, I just, I just was a bad kid.
Later on I was diagnosed with ADD and high functioning autism and I just didn't know how to act
in school. And I remember going to church one Sunday. And there was a kid in our ward. He lived across
the street from me named Sean Williams. He passed on in a very tragic accident years later. But I
used him as an example. And they were telling this story. And I said, so if Sean went into the woods,
went into Cedar Mountain and said he saw God and Jesus and came back down off the mountain and told us all
that he is the one and only true prophet and we all have to follow him you guys would laugh at him and i
remember my sunday school teacher's face like the color kind of drained out of his face and he stood up
and grabbed me by my arm and yanked me out into the hall and he was a great big bear of a man
and stood over me like you know pointing down at me i just i remember his face being right in my
face how dare you compare sean to the prophet and how dare you question this
this story and how dare you this. And it was just this kind of breakthrough moment for me that
just never left me. I just was like, oh, okay, I'm not allowed to question anything. I'm not allowed
to to theorize or say what if this happened again or it's keep your mouth shut, toe the line
and keep your head down, do the work and don't ask questions. And I'm not wired that way. And as I grew,
it just got worse and worse. I just thought, wait a minute, let me get this straight. So having sex
before marriage is bad, which is what you're taught in Mormonism. But Joseph was married and then he
started having sex with all these other women. So he would send these men on missions if he was
attracted to their wives, ship them off to England and then start boinkin their wife. And his wife
found out about it. And then all of a sudden, oh, it was because he had a revelation.
God told him he was supposed to have more wives. He was supposed to have engaged in polygamy.
So that's how he talked his way around getting caught with like 14 year old girls in the barn.
You know, he was classically, this makes people very angry when you say it when they're in the
church. He was a pedophile. They want to say things were different back then. People got married
younger back then, 30, mid-30s year old men having sex with a 14-year-old girl was never accepted
in America. That was never a thing. The other thing that I really always had a problem with
was the word of wisdom. Mormons are told not to drink coffee or tea, but they guzzled Diet Coke
and Coke. And, you know, in Utah, I don't know if you've heard here, but we have these soda shops
now. Have you heard about the soda shops? You would die.
where you go on every corner, swig, gulp, fizz, bubbles, you know, they have all different
kinds of names. And it's just giant 64 ounce sodas pumped full of like vanilla syrup and
coconut syrup and, you know, red bowls. And so because Mormons don't drink alcohol, these are
their versions of cocktails. But, but they don't understand, but they don't want you to drink
tea or why? Here is the real answer to that question. So my way, I,
brought this up was, as I grew, I kept asking this question over and over and no one could answer
it for me. And the reason is, there's not an answer. The answer is something they don't want to talk
about. Joseph Smith was a tobacco chore. He had a plug a tobacco in his lip at all times,
and he also liked to smoke pipes and cigars. Every time he had a priesthood meeting after he formed
the church, the men would gather and congregate at Joseph's house and spit their tobacco on the
floor. His wife, Emma, his first wife, would then have to clean it up. So she told Joseph, I am
banning all tobacco from the house. Well, Joseph loved, I'm sorry, Emma loved coffee and tea. She was a
coffee drinker, a tea drinker, and she had several times a day she would have tea time, just like,
you know, her ancestors were from England. So she was used to having tea. So Joseph said, well,
if you're going to take away my tobacco, I'm taking away your coffee and tea. And all of a sudden
then there was a revelation. These revelations are very convenient, a revelation that Mormons could no
longer drink coffee and tea. So the word of wisdom came about over a domestic dispute. That's why
there's no answer. That's why there's no answer as to why Mormons can drink tons and tons of Coke
but not drink coffee, which is better for you than Coke. Right. The Mormon, the word of wisdom also
says that you should not eat meat unless in times of famine. But the Mormons don't want to
talk about that you know how religious people like to cherry pick their scriptures and the and the
parts they're going to listen to and the parts they don't it also says no meat except in times of famine
but they don't pay attention to that so i struggled with that as i got older and then um as was my
duty as the bishop's daughter i got knocked up in high school they always joke you know that the bishop's
daughters are the wildest kids i got pregnant when i was 17 um my first husband was
23 at the time. So we got married. I dropped out of school. I was the drill master on the drill
team at the time. I was involved in all kinds of school activities, had this whole future
planned out and laid out for me. And suddenly I was a 17 year old with a baby. And I dragged
my husband to church with me. He had never really gone. He's what we call inactive. He was a
member of the church but wasn't raised in the church. He didn't go to church. So then we went
through the temple. And I don't know how much you know about the Mormon temple. Have you seen any of the
videos online? No. It's like the temple is like you're the church, right? No, the church is where you go
every Sunday for church meetings. The temple is where you're only allowed to go. If you have a temple
recommend. Now, this is also a very important hallmark of a cult. A cult always has an unquestioning
leader at the top that you cannot, you cannot go against, you cannot backtalk them.
You cannot ask questions of them.
Another hallmark of a cult is that there is always a segment of glory, deification or superiority
that not all members have access to.
And Mormonism is very much a cult in this way.
In order to go to the temple, you have to be a full tithe payer.
So you have to give 10% of your gross, not your net income, to the church.
You know the Mormon church has like $160 billion.
Yes, it does.
This just came out a few years ago.
The church, the internet for the Mormon church has been very, very bad.
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But so you have to give 10% of your income. You have to be monogamous or celibate if you're
single. You have to be straight. You have to be no alcohol, no coffee, no tea, church every Sunday.
You have to be completely devout. Mormonism is not your religion. Mormonism is your life.
You are a Mormon before you are anything else.
You are Mormon before you're a wife, a husband, a son, a daughter, a doctor.
You are Mormon first.
So we go to the temple and people kind of tried to prepare me for what it was going to be like.
I'm sure your viewers and you probably know a little bit about Freemasonry.
Right.
Okay.
So Joseph Smith was very into studying Freemasonry and he took a lot of the things that happened in the temple from Freemasonry.
So you go in and you can watch this all online now.
People have gone in with hidden cameras and recorded this whole thing.
And you have to understand, I was told growing up that if you ever shared what went in
the temple, there were signs that you do in the temple.
You stand in the temple.
It says, if I ever reveal the secrets of the temple and you make a sign from here to
here that your throat will be cut from ear to ear, that you will be gutted from breastbone
to pubic bone.
and then there are other penalties that they tell you will happen to if you ever talk about
what goes on in the temple.
And they've since taken that out of the ceremony because it got online and they did not
want people seeing that.
You wear all white clothing.
You watch a movie that has to do with the Garden of Eden and how Satan came to be.
You put on these strange hats for the men and the women veil their faces.
the women sit on one side of the room, the men sent on the other side of the room.
And then at the end, you are given what's called signs and tokens.
The very first time you ever go to the temple, they give you your own name.
And they tell you that when you meet God in heaven, God will not ask you what your earthly name was.
God will ask you for your name.
And they tell you your name and they tell you it's very secret.
And to this day, I still have a really hard time saying mine because it's just so drilled into your head.
But I was given the name of Leah.
and you go to a curtain and there's a man standing behind the curtain and his hand comes through
a slit in the curtain. And he takes your hand and impresses upon your hand, his thumb here,
his finger here, and there's different handshakes that are supposed to represent where the nails
were put in Christ's hands at his crucifixion and other signs. But they are really just the same
signs as Freemasonry. There's a very famous photo of George Bush shaking,
Thomas Monson's hand in, when Thomas Monson was in the first presidency, and they are holding each
other's hands in a very unusual way. And that is because George Bush was a Freemason and Thomas
Monson was a Mormon and they both know the same handshakes. So the significance of Leah.
Very, very good question, Matthew. It's supposed to be divinely inspired by God. Do you know what it is?
Everyone who went to the temple on Tuesdays was Leah, Wednesdays was Virginia, Thursdays was Jessica.
So you're told that this is a divinely inspired name that is given only to you.
And you're not supposed to talk about any of this stuff with other people.
But then you find out later there were roles and dates printed on a calendar and your name was just given to you depending on whatever day you happen to go through the temple on the first time.
Not very divinely inspired.
not very divinely inspired and not very magical you know there's a lot of magical belief
there's a lot of magical thinking in Mormonism and so you know I go to the temple it is not
what I expected my dad tried to handle it with humor as he always does he's great and he said
don't be surprised if you see pizzas flying through the air at one point and I was like what
and then I see the men get out these hats there are like a cardboard baker's hat and put him on
and I was like dad I like it was all I could do not to start laughing my dad
That's, he's great, but it was strange.
And we went home and my ex-husband was quiet all the way home in the car.
And we got home and he took his suit off and he looked at me and he said, don't ever ask me to do that again.
And we never, he never went back.
I did, but he didn't.
So I have a question.
Did you ever see this series Big Love?
I've seen a few episodes of Big Love.
Yes, I have.
Are they supposed to be Mormon?
I don't know if they're supposed to.
supposed to be Mormon or not. I think there's a misconception in mainstream society. The polygamists
that exist now are not Mormons, mainstream Mormons. They are members of what is called the
fundamentalist Latter-day Saint Church, the F-L-D-S. So when you see, if you see pictures like about
40 minutes from where I'm sitting right now, you drive out to Colorado City. Everyone's dressed
like it's the 1800s. The women's have these big poofy bangs with French braids. The men are in
cowboy Western shirts and jeans, but you know, they have iPhones and stuff now, but they didn't
use to. They believe they are the real Mormons. They believe mainstream Mormons are wrong
because mainstream Mormons stopped practicing polygamy. So the FLDS are not what was portrayed in
big love. They had like jobs and stuff, right? Yes. Yes. So that they would not be
considered Mormon. No, just maybe like sister wives, you know, that Cody, that weird Cody guy that
has different wives. I don't know that he considers himself a Mormon on that show's sister wives.
He's just a polygamist. But the Mormon polygamists are different. Oh, okay. Sorry.
It's, um, uh, big love, uh, which first aired in 2016, whatever. Sorry, Bill Paxton as a member of the
a fictional breakaway Mormon sect.
Okay.
There's a fictional breakaway Mormon sect.
It doesn't exist.
That makes sense.
Three wives and eight children, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Yeah.
That makes sense.
It was good.
I've heard a lot of people say that it was good.
Sometimes that stuff is a little triggering for me.
I'm not a big fan.
I think triggers are overused and I'm not a big fan of like,
I think you're responsible for your own triggers.
you know i'm not a big fan of giving trigger warnings and stuff on my channel i'm like it's a
true crime channel what the hell do you think you're going to be talking here um but it is a little
triggering for me i have a hard time with some of that stuff because it's so close to home i mean when i go
to walmart if i leave here we finish here and i go to walmart today i will see polygamists
in my walmart um they believe all the same things that mormon do with the exception
mormons do with the exception of polygamy they still practice polygamy the mainstream
Mormon church did away with polygamy because the federal government said if Utah wants to become
a state and get statehood, you have to do away with polygamy because it's immoral. And that is the
one and only reason the Mormons did away with polygamy. If the federal government had not made that
happen, we'd still be practicing polygamy today. They seem very malleable. You know what I'm saying?
It's not like, you know what I'm saying? They're very like it's like, this is our rules. What? We don't
had to stick with that one. We can give up that one. Like they're they're willing to make some changes
for the betterment of of the overall of the church. And that's new. Yeah. That's new. I was taught,
there's a scripture that says he is the same yesterday, today, and forever. And I was always taught
the doctrine of the church does not change and the gospel does not change. But oh wait,
we've got to let black men have the priesthood in 1978 because we're getting a lot of pressure on that.
black men were not allowed to have the priesthood until
1978
not 1980
not 1878
1978 right so they changed for that
then all the sudden it was well you know
we're not getting as many missionaries as we used to get
and two years is a long time to go on a mission and be gone
when you're 20 something years old so we're going to change it to 18 months
and then we used to go to church when I was growing up
you went to church for two hours on Sunday morning you went home and had
lunch and then you went back for two hours in the afternoon. Well, they started to notice.
Yeah. Well, and then you had in the middle of the week, you had young women's and young
men's and mutual and relief society parties and it's your life. And then they started to notice
a lot of people aren't coming back for that afternoon session. So we're going to make it a block,
a three-hour block. So I then, through all my adulthood, I left the church when I was about 38.
All through my adulthood, I went to church for three hours on Sunday. And then about a year ago,
they said, we're noticing a real drop in membership here.
We're going to go to two hours.
Now, last week, they announced that the garments that Mormons wear, now only Mormons
that go to the temple wear garments.
You've seen the garments, the underwear?
Yeah.
Okay.
So now they've changed the garments for women.
When I was in the church, my garments hit me about right here.
You're not allowed to wear tank tops, spaghetti straps, strapless dresses, crop tops,
anything like that.
They go past your belly.
You can't show anything.
And now they've just come out with one that you could maybe wear a tank top with.
And they've said all along the garments will never change.
Well, the garments used to be long-sleeved and go all the way to your ankles.
So they've changed the garments a bunch of times too.
So things do change.
And that also bothered me.
That was like, hmm, I grew up with these rules being told this.
And now all of a sudden, it's changed and it's different.
So which is it?
Right.
And they're modernizing, keeping up with times.
Yeah. Yeah. I have a feeling that Joseph Smith would have done the same. I don't disagree.
I mean, I think he would have been like, he was smart con man. He got to wait, wait a minute.
Yeah. God just told me we're going with this new fashion. We're going back a little bit.
Yep. The game's on. We don't have to go four hours on Sundays. That's crazy. It's football season.
Oh, you should be around the Mormon.
when BYU used to be way you doesn't play on Sunday but there was a time where this was a big
uproar and a big controversy but yeah uh football is football's a big deal it causes a lot of
a lot of problems causes a lot of bishops interviews for those men that uh seem to be sneaking out
early yeah so so um i was i was always a square peg in a round hall in the church um i my my
My job did not lend itself to being a good Mormon.
I spent my weekends in smoky dive bars and casinos and clubs that most people probably wouldn't
even go into.
That was your job?
I'm a professional singer.
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
And I put out an album in the late 90s.
This was right as I was getting divorced and I've been with my husband now since 1997.
I put out an album and I got picked up.
by Sarah McClockland to do the Lilith Fair tour. Those of us that are ancient will remember.
And then I got put on kind of a satellite circuit to all of those big artists and kind of
toured around with a lot of those artists. And I had a record deal presented to me by
Third Rail Records. It was a subsidiary of Hollywood at the time. They brought me down to Los
Angeles and sat me down and said, you know, we're going to give you this half million
dollar record deal and I called my bishop that's how that's how in in I was I I don't like to use
the word brainwash because I think it's disrespectful to people that are still in the church but
there are people that use that word and my bishop said how are you going to be a good mom
and that really broke my heart and he said how are you going to be a good Mormon and I didn't
care so much about that but the mom thing really hurt me and so I didn't sign the record deal
at the time i was with when stephanie and no doubt almost every night and they went this way and i went
this way and you know they stayed on tour and i went home and they blew up and i was back home running
my husband's construction company so who knows what would have happened but that's um that's how in
i was i called my bishop for advice you know um and then my husband and i grew through the church we
ended up going to the temple together um new husband my husband now my second husband he was raised
in um las vegas until he was about 12 my husband is a in tennis they don't call it triple a tennis
they call it satellite tennis you go on the satellite circuit so he played he went to missou
on a tennis scholarship and then he got picked up on the satellite circuit same time andre augusty
did so he played a lot with andre augusty as like his tennis partner things like that and then he kind of aged
out of it he wasn't good enough to go pro he had been on the satellite circuit for a while his
parents had moved back to missouri because i don't know if you know the lore in mormonism but
jesus is coming to missouri did you know that did you know that no i didn't get that email
tickets matthew because jesus is coming to missouri um when you know when whenever jesus
decides to come back the second coming it's going to be in missouri because missouri
according to Mormons is where the Garden of Eden was okay yeah yeah it's very American religion
huh oh it is the only true American religion I mean besides all the cults you know that pop up here and
there but the reason Mormonism survived is because of the isolation Joseph Smith made so many people mad
I mean he tried to kill the governor you know and they put him in prison and then he tried to break out
of prison and then when he tried to break out of prison he was shot and murdered so then he became a martyr so
then Brigham Young, his successor, picked the Mormons up and moved him to Utah. And in the
isolation with no exposure to anything else, any cult will grow. I mean, when they tell you to have 15
kids, and then 15 kids have 15 kids and you're isolated for 50 years, that cult is obviously
going to grow. And that is the reason Mormonism survived where so many other folk magic cults
and things like that did not. It was surely due to the isolation. Now Mormons will tell you it's because
it's the truth and truth always endures but that's not what i believe well yeah the united states
has never been invaded too it's that's another we could definitely go into that yeah well i was gonna say
we're we're also the united state we're isolated it's pretty hard to we are we are very much so so
okay so you're you're married to the second husband and and what is there
I mean, you've turned down a record deal.
Yeah.
What happens then?
So before I married my second husband, when I was just like 19 years old, my ex-husband
my ex-husband moved me from Cedar City, Utah to St. George.
There's about 45 miles difference.
And I got down here and I needed a job.
And I thought, you know, I'm a good dancer.
I'm going to start a dance school.
So I opened a little dance school.
I started out with like 20 girls from the neighborhood.
And within a year, I had 500 students.
and so I had this big dance school and I started going to these dance conventions and I found out
what homosexuality was. I did not know growing up in southern Utah what a gay man was. I did not
know. I was probably 20 years old. I went to a dance convention and I knew there were a couple
of friends I had in high school. The boys were a little feminine and, you know, had the block of
seagull's hair or the trench coats or the new wave stuff or whatever, but I had no idea what gay was.
And so I started going to these conventions and I made friends with a lot of gay men.
And I found out how terribly gay men are treated in our society.
And I became an activist in not only the queer rights community, but also civil rights community.
And the more the activist in me came out, the less I could stay in the church.
It got harder and harder from me.
And then one day in 2006 or seven, they had what's called a joint meet.
Normally the women go to Relief Society and the men go to priesthood on Sunday after sacrament meeting.
So everybody goes to sacrament meeting, takes the sacrament, then you break off into groups.
Well, today we had a joint meeting.
This is a lot of work.
Mormonism is, I call it a, we call it in the community the highest of the high demand religions.
It is the hardest outside of being Amish perhaps to be Mormon.
So we're sitting in this group meeting and the bishop comes in and he's going to talk to us all.
And behind him is his first counselor pulling like a dolly, a moving dolly.
And on it is a bunch of yard signs.
And I'm thinking what's going on here?
Because first off, Mormons are not supposed to get involved in politics at all.
We're not supposed to discuss politics with each other.
We're supposed to vote our conscience.
You're not supposed to discuss politics at church.
And the church is never supposed to get involved in politics.
There is supposed to be a very hard line between we believe in the Constitution.
We don't believe in church and state.
You know, they should be separate.
And on this sign, on this dolly, these signs, the bishop pulls one of them out.
And he says, brothers and sisters, we have been instructed by the first presidency.
Those are the leaders of the church to ask you to put these signs in your yard that say vote no on prop eight.
What was prop eight?
I'm like, what is this?
Gay marriage.
Okay.
California was the first state to put gay marriage on the ballot.
And we were being told as Utah Mormons that California Mormons look up to, because, you know, being a Utah Mormon is the best of all the Mormons.
To put these signs in our yard so word would reach Californians that Utah Mormons did not want gay marriage to pass.
And I'm sorry, are there a lot of, are there a lot of, um, California Mormons?
Oh, yeah.
Really?
Oh, yeah.
Oh, there are so many Mormons in Arizona and California.
It would shock you.
Yeah, Arizona's full of Mormons.
Yeah, California too.
Lots and lots.
Big, big pockets of them, you know.
So I, I can, I still remember when I think about this, like I can still see the sunbeams coming
through the window. It was kind of dusty in there. And I felt my face start to get really hot
because I had worked for my dad and I had enough legal expertise. My father is a judge. And I had
enough legal expertise to know. First off, marriage, even though I didn't really understand
gay marriage at the time, I was like 35 or 36, marriage is a civil right. It's not a church
right. Your bishop doesn't sign your marriage license. The government does. So that makes it a
civil union. And so I had talked to my dad about this when I started hearing these rumors
and my dad said, my dad is the most Mormon, Republican, straight-laced guy, but he understands
the law. And he said, yes, gay people should be allowed to get married because marriage is a civil
union. So my father, as devout as he is, has such an understanding and respect for the law
that he was willing to overlook what his church was saying to follow the law. So knowing this,
watching them do this, I don't know what happened to me. Something took over my body. I could feel
like the heat rising on my face and I got real sweaty. And I had my quad on my lap. Your quad is your
scriptures. It has the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price and the doctrine and
covenants all in one book and it's like this thick. And I had my quad. The other three books besides
the Bible are Mormon books. Those are books only Mormons use. I slammed it shut and I reached
down and shoved my scriptures in my bag your my church bag and i yanked it up off the floor and i
stood up and just storm i remember i looked down at this poor neighbor of mine and i said move
really loud and he got out of the way and i stormed past him in the aisle and out the door and
slam the door behind me and i never went back to church that was it what happened with your husband
what did he say he came scrambling out after me and and the next week um
He was like, are we going to church?
And I said, no, we're not.
I said, you can go if you want.
I'm not going.
And then the next week came and the kids were like, are we going to church bomb?
And I said, no, I'm not.
You can go if you want.
And nobody went, nobody ever went back.
Okay.
That's how I left.
So, and it was, I'm sorry, did, did anybody your bishop come to see you?
did anybody any calls oh yeah they tried to get me back a lot i had lots of visits from the relief
society presidency uh what's called the home teachers two men are partnered up and they are assigned
families to go and check on their families once a month um i got a letter from the bishop i got
letters from other ladies in the neighborhood that were worried for my immortal soul um it comes from
a good place i feel like i'm talking about a different person right now i'm fidgeting in my chair because
this is so it's so odd and so uncomfortable to talk about this. I was a different person. It was a
different person back then. And when I left, I, in Mormonism, there's a metaphor and it's called
your shelf. So you're either a Mormon that has a shelf or you're a Mormon that doesn't. If you have
a shelf, you have a shelf that hangs on the wall. And every time you have a question that there's
no answer for, you put that issue on the shelf. Now, some Mormons don't have a shelf because they don't
have any questions. They follow. They believe. My mom is like this. She is, she is a faithful person.
She doesn't need to ask a question. If this is the way it is. And God says it's this way,
this is the way it's going to be. But some people have a shelf. And every time they go,
well, the Joseph Smith story is really weird. Put it on the shelf. Well, he had sex with a 14 year
old girl. Oh, no, put it on the shelf. And the metaphor goes that for a lot of us,
you put so many things on the shelf that the shelf breaks. And then you go down the rabbit hole.
And once you go down the rabbit hole and you start learning about actual church history,
your mind is, I want to say literally, even though that's not correct, your mind is blown.
When you find out everything you've been taught is not true and then you find out the real truth,
the anger and the rage and the sadness that you feel, I don't think it's part.
possible to describe it to people that have not left Mormonism. It's you find out I've been
betrayed my whole life by the people that love me the most because they were betrayed by the people
that love them the most and on and on and on. Nobody did it to you on purpose. They thought
they were bringing you into the most wonderful thing on earth. And my family still believes
it's the most wonderful thing on earth. So I think I mentioned Andrew Smith Levy
early. I'm sorry, Aaron Smith Levy. I don't know if we had, I don't know if we talked to
that, I mentioned him before. Yes. So, okay, so that won't be a, nobody else known that. So
he wasn't Mormon. He was a Scientologist. Oh, very similar. So when he left,
he and his wife left, the church basically they, they, I don't think they call it shunning,
but they have a they call it um nope it's not shunning it's a different word you're you're labeled
a this person non-person or something like that yeah yeah it's i can't remember what the exact word is
yeah like literally like his his um you know his mother was told not to talk to him anymore
his his uh father and mother-in-law like and what's so funny is like i
I think they owned a house like across the street from his.
And so they would come over.
And it's actually sad when he tells it.
So I shouldn't say it's funny, but it's, it's an odd situation.
They would come over like the house that people would move out.
Right.
The renters and they would have to go over there to clean it up and fix it up.
And so they, they would go over there.
And his kids would try and go over and.
see oh there's grandma and grandpa and they would want to go see them and errands like i don't want to
tell them not to you know but basically if they went across the street to try and go see them like
they would like go in the house and close the door and not answer the door like it was like
heart breaking right um and then so he went on a campaign where he sticks like a sign in his front
yard and every time somebody comes to see the house he goes over there and says you know
Well, first it was Mormons that they're, I'm sorry, not, I'm sorry.
It was Scientologists they were trying to sell them to because they like wanted to sell to other
Scientologists.
Yeah.
And he would go out there and he would say, hey, just want to let you know not in person living
across the street. Like he would be like, yeah, I'm not interested in being involved in this.
I think eventually they ended up selling it to somebody who who was a, like they couldn't
rent it. They couldn't sell it. Eventually they told it to somebody who wasn't in the church.
Like I had to get permission. But they really went out.
went out of the way they got him fired from his job like they went out they went so far out of
their way to make his life miserable he started a youtube channel and i mean i promise you they have
regretted oh yeah like he's like he's like all they had to do is be like hey i get it that's fine
we're not going to put this restraint on you but instead they picked the fight with the wrong person
yeah he's like a remedy she says the same thing yeah he's a huge thorn in their side i love it i mean i love
And I don't understand, there are a lot of women my age that I'm associated with that have left the church.
And it's about 50, 50, whether or not their parents still talk to them.
I'm very, very fortunate.
I have a wonderful relationship with my parents.
I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that they're actually good Christians.
They actually follow what Jesus taught.
I'm not a believer in Jesus.
But if Jesus, you know, was a real person and those are the things he taught,
love your neighbor, forgive, you know, treat those who harm you well. My parents have done all of
those things. And I think my dad being a judge too, he saw a lot of destruction in families. He was a
juvenile judge. And so he saw a lot of destruction in families. And he knew it was like, if I push my
daughter away, I'm just going to lose my daughter. And he didn't want that. So to their credit,
they have kept me in their life, even though a lot of people in their positions would not have.
in fact there are people that have told me my dad was probably going to be called to be a general authority or a member of the quorum of the 70 and he cannot be now because he has an apostate daughter but he's never he's never put that on me but there other people have it's not good yeah it's it's it's quite it's quite a fun label to carry for your whole life i i call myself an apostate because that's their word for me and be oh that's such an ugly word why do you use it and i said because that's what they call it
me if you take the word back it loses all its power you know they used to mean apostate uh apostate
means that you are cast from the eyes of god in mormon's eyes if they're true believers they believe
that i am what's called a son of perdition and i will be cast into hell i will never be able to be in
the presence of god because i have denied my testimony they believe that i had a testimony at one point
i went to the temple i was a believer and now i'm not anymore and so
I'm an apostate and I'm a son of perdition and we'll never be in the presence of God.
So it's pretty heavy if you, you know, if I were to still believe all of that.
Mormons have a really high suicide rate.
Mormons have a really high, I think we have the highest addiction to opioids in the country, Utah does.
We have the highest use of antidepressants in the country.
And we have the highest amount of teen suicide.
I think it's, I don't even think it's teen.
I think it's under the age of 21 suicide in the country, in Utah.
Because anyone who's gay or queer is, they're killing themselves.
I mean, at some point, you would think the church would have to kind of go.
You'd think with all the blood on their hands, but they haven't done that so far.
Yeah.
We're going to loosen the reins on this here.
It's, you know, they come out and they say things like,
Everyone is welcome here.
Well, as long as you don't get married, if you're queer, as long as you don't bring a partner to church, as long as you stay celibate and live your life alone and don't tell anyone you're gay.
I mean, the amount of gay friends that I have, I have all my, most of my friends are gay men that are closest to me.
I do have some girlfriends, but I've had a lot of gay male friends over the years and I have not known one that has not had.
multiple married Mormon boyfriends um so what was your so was your husband ever um did he ever
say like hey why don't we go back or is this an issue or he was just kind of like listen
i was just going because he was going because in this small southern utah town where we live
it's not as much like this anymore it's it's changed a little bit but your kids are um not invited to
some parties if you're not Mormon and not active, your kids are not treated the same by some
school teachers if you're not active Mormon. We wanted our kids to be good kids and make their
lives easier. And in doing that, you know, we subjected them to some things that they're now
having to deal with as adults and they're and religious trauma of their own. I didn't know I was doing
that at the time. I was just doing what I thought was right, just like my parents did what they
thought was right and still think is right. It's it's just hard because I tell people it's unfair to
birth the child into something that controls their whole life when that child never agreed to be
part of it. You know, I never made the choice to be part of the church and I was forced to claw my
way out of it as an adult when I never agreed to be a part of it. And that is very unfair to me.
Well, I mean, that's, that's all religions.
If you're born into a Jewish family, about a 99% chance you're going to, you're going to follow the Jewish faith, the Catholic base, Christian faith.
Yes.
Just in general, that's a thing.
Yeah.
That's, uh, it's a story.
Yeah.
It's funny.
I had gone on a date one time with a woman that was a Scientologist.
Uh-huh.
And, you know, we hung out for we spent two or three hours together.
And I was like, and it was funny, too, because when I was, we were, when we were, I was dropping her at her car, she goes, I really, really would like to see you again.
But I told her on the first date that I had been in prison.
Oh.
And she said, and I was, I was like, yeah, me too.
This was great.
And she said, and keep in mind, it was COVID.
Okay.
So, you know, nothing happened because the church or the Scientologists were so, you know, they were following all the rules to the max.
Oh, I didn't know that.
Okay.
Extreme.
Uh-huh.
You know, they didn't want it to get in there and ravish their, the community, whatever.
Oh.
So, you know, so we did nothing happen.
Like we, you know, and she'd explain going there like, listen, like, we're going to go.
You know, I'm going to go, but I want you to let you know.
Here's where I'm at.
Here's what's going on.
I was like, yeah, yeah, that's fine.
So we went.
out to dinner and I mentioned to her what was a you know my thing and so she was like I really want
to see you again like this was so great we had so much time you know so much fun and she was like
I said okay well what you want to do it on you know what about Thursday and she went so I have to ask
my and I forget who that person was what what they called him like her her guidance whatever
oh it's like a monitor or something like that yeah right somebody yeah and she said um
She said, but I don't, she's pretty cool.
I don't think it's going to be a problem.
I said, oh, okay.
And she said, well, you know, I'll call you tomorrow.
I'll let you know.
And well, I'm sure we'll schedule something.
But, you know, let's give me a, give me a minute.
No problem.
Next day, she was like, wow.
Hey, so we're going to be friends.
Oh, I was like, oh, okay.
Really?
And she's like, yeah.
And I said, well, what happened?
She's like, yeah, I'm not really supposed to get into it.
I'm not supposed to discuss church business or, you know, things that happen.
She said, but yeah, she said, it's a hard no.
So I said, what did the guy say?
She's like, yeah, I can't say what we, those are confidential, you know.
What do you think it was?
Oh, she told him, hey, look, I like this guy.
But by the way, he, he was in prison.
And.
That was it.
Oh, I'm sure that was it.
Because other than that, she, you know, keep in mind, she'd been married to a guy.
Like, she was born a Scientologist and raised Scientologists.
Her parents were Scientologists, all the way she knows the Scientologist.
She had actually met a Muslim and married him, which he married him for like 10 years.
Huh.
So she's like, you know, they don't have a problem.
She's like, it's not that you're not a Scientologist.
She said it's.
She had already told me.
She said the prison thing might be a problem because they're very concerned.
about like status appearances appearances status that sort of thing I was like okay she said and I was
like is it because I'm not a Scientologist would that be a problem and she said no that wouldn't
be a problem at all she said be honest she said matter of fact she said I was married to you know yeah
to this guy and I was like okay and she said yeah so she said I don't think it's going to be an
issue she said it might be but I don't think so well I think what happened of course is that you know
if you look me up, it's an issue.
And keep in mind, this was like three, four years ago.
My wife and I had been, it was my girlfriend at the time.
We had been dating and we broke up for like, you know, two or three weeks, which, of course, she says is not enough time for me to have gone on another date.
And I'm like, yeah, like, oh, you're wrong about that.
I was pissed.
It took me all three days, three days to put my, to get on a couple of apps and start.
Yeah.
So, you know, if you're thinking, oh, there's a grace period.
Yeah, it's when the door closes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, you know, she gets furious.
So I can imagine she does.
Anyway, so yeah, so that during that three weeks, I went on that date with that.
It was so funny, too, because I remember one time.
I was driving like this is whatever we we just gotten back together and I was driving and I had
you know in the dash you know how you have the screen right yes yes so we're going somewhere and
I'm following the I'm following the map yes and I go and as I'm driving I said I said what does
it say you know how how far is it and she leans into the the map to look at it and she took
to kind of like move it around to see how far or something or and she starts to do it and when
i would get a text notification it would drop down oh and the girl's name was gin it went
and jinn hey what are you doing my wife was like she goes she goes turn around i said i'm not
turning around did you get your ass chewed i'm not turn around you can move from the restaurant
if you want but i'm going to get breakfast anyway yeah she was okay by the time we got there but
that always kills me she's so man i i yeah you're it was what's what do they say from friends
we were on a break we're on a break we were on a break oh ross um yeah they really run your life
oh yeah oh yeah it's it's the same in warminism you're you're expected to count
with your bishop. You're expected to pray. You're expected to go to your leaders if you have
questions. And the problem is, as I was talking about these interviews that happen with children,
why it's become such an issue, is a lot of times these bishops are giving psychological counseling
and they don't have any training. They shouldn't be giving people life counsel and life advice
and career advice and marriage advice and psychological advice. They're not
qualified. And no grown man should be locked in a room with a small child asking them questions
about kissing and that just shouldn't happen. And there's a man named Sam Young who has started
a crusade. It's called Protect All Children. And it's a crusade. He walks around with like a
protect the children flag tied to his tied around his neck and he marches up and down in front of the
temple and he was once a, you know, a state president and a bishop and very high up in the
church. And his daughters came to him and had very similar experiences to some of mine that I
haven't gone into the details of here. But he was horrified because he was a good man like my
dad was a good man and would never ask a child something like that. There are men that really
take advantage of those situations. And as we know, there are a lot of freaking sickos and
pitos and creeps. And when they get in a position where they've got a little bit of power boy,
they they lord that over you you know and he was horrified by that and he has left the church
and started this big crusade to stop these closed door bishops interviews and and i i hope they do
stop because they're inappropriate i would never i mean i think about my little granddaughters now
and i'm like oh if somebody ever told them they had to go in a room and answer to some strange man
i'd probably go to jail are you still a singer
Yeah. I had to, I mean, during COVID, all of that died out. And what's happening now is really weird. People don't realize to live through COVID. Musicians live either here or here. There's no gray area. You're either up here making money. You're famous or you're down here struggling, barely getting by. You know, I'm lucky enough to have a husband that supports my career and things like that. And I've always done other things on the side. I've always, you know, painted and and had a little, you know, side.
job side gigs here and there. But what happened during COVID is all the people that are down here
on this level sold all their equipment to get by. So now even though COVID's been over for a few
years, people are just still rebuilding their equipment. So the live shows are still slow in coming
back because a lot of people sold off all their gear in order to feed themselves. And so the scene
is still a little bit slow, the circuit that I play on. So I have a circuit. There's one up in Salt Lake.
we're all going hit like Provo, Salt Lake Logan, Southern Idaho,
sometimes go over to Reno, windover, you know.
There's another circuit that's, you know, Vegas to Reno to Southern California,
and go all around through San Diego and San Jose, all of that.
And some of those places just never reopened.
So the circuit is kind of building itself back up again, and that's taking some time.
But I'm, yeah, I'm back on it.
And even at my old age, I still like to do it.
I don't do it as much as I used to because I'm old.
And I got sick of hump and gear.
But yeah, I still do it.
So I'm still plugging along and probably going to do another album in the next year or so.
And despite what the bishop said, I think I turned out to be a pretty good mom.
So, you know, but yeah, it was pretty crushing when I left the church to find out I'd given all of that up for something that turned out to be a story.
It was heartbreaking.
I was angry for a long time.
And then I got tired of being angry and I just decided not to be angry anymore, you know.
Well, and how long ago, when and why did you start your YouTube channel?
You have a true crime.
What do you call it a true crime YouTube channel?
Yep, yeah, true crime mysteries, cult stories, conspiracies, any dark story.
I started it because of COVID.
I literally was sitting at home tearing my hair out.
I was like, I can't sing.
I can't perform.
There's no art shows going on.
There's no gallery showings.
There's nothing because I paint.
to. And I was like, well, I love true crime. I'm fascinated with it. I know I read everything. I watch
everything. I'm like, and, you know, also my husband and I had restaurants. And so I'm like,
what if I did true crime and food? And everybody was like, Stacey, that sounds very weird. And
but that's what I started doing. So I would tell a true crime story that had an element of food to
it, a murder that, you know, was conceived of in a pizza parlor. And then I would make a pizza,
a mobster that was killed in a restaurant.
And then I would cook the food from the restaurant, you know.
And after about a year and a half, two years, I was like, you know, the channel's growing a
little bit, but it's a little niche.
And people said, yeah, it is a little niche.
And then I decided to branch out and just go straight true crime and mysteries and cult stories,
conspiracies.
Even though I'm not a conspiracy theorist, I do really enjoy talking about him.
And just being a former member of a high demand religion, you know, cults are very interesting
to me.
so um i have a friend whose girlfriend was saying one time a good podcast or or you know would be
to well one she was saying to make the meal but you probably just talk about the meal it's like
the last meal that different serial killers asked for so i had a whole playlist on dining with
death that was called dining with the damned and it was um i would tell the crime
story and then eat the last meal before the execution.
So there's a whole playlist on my channel.
All the videos are still up on dark hearts with Stacey Lee.
But there's a single playlist now called Dining with Death and all of the food episodes
are on that playlist.
But yeah, you can see me eat the last meals of gosh, how many of those episodes did I do?
I mean at least 50, 75, somewhere around in there.
So everything from giant meals of, you know, buckets of fried.
chicken and two pizzas and eight cheeseburgers and fries to Victor Fager who asked for an olive,
you know? So it was, it was interesting. I also did a series where I talked about
dining with the departed, where I would talk about famous people and eat the meal they had
right before they died or their favorite food. We'd do rock stars and, you know, movie stars and
things like that. So it was interesting, but it was very niche.
But so that turned into what do you typically go over now?
Dark Hearts with Stacey Lee, which is just true crime without the food element, just true crime stories, much deeper dives, 30 to 45 minute true crime stories, scripted, mysteries.
I do a lot of cultural phenomenon stories.
Like, I don't know if you've seen like the scandal about mom talk about the Mormon ladies that were swingers.
They were all like sleeping with each other's husbands.
Do you know anything about that?
No.
It was a big scandal on TikTok.
And so, like, I do stories like that that are dark, but maybe not true crime.
You know, maybe nobody dies, but they're still, like, very dark stories.
I do a lot of, you know, mysteries.
And people really, really, really like the conspiracy stories.
And they love the cult stories.
The cult stories tend to give me what I call the church giggles, you know,
where you're, like, trying not to laugh, but you're laughing and you can't stop.
That happens to me a lot when I talk about.
cults because they're just especially like the UFO cults and the people that the people that believe
like they're going to go live on a star or something like that those like heaven's gate the heaven's
gate there are some that are so much worse than heaven's gate like the people honestly think they're
made out of starlight and they can live on oxygen and and then i cover people like teal swan i don't know if you know
she is she's like a modern day con artist um very very very bright very very manipulative very pretty
um has a lot of people that follow her but she has some very dangerous ideas she tells people to
kill themselves that they're not happy because it's setting the reset button um there's another
guy named bentino masaro really good looking guy has all these followers and he's he tells him the
same thing you know hit the reset button if you're not happy um dangerous
dangerous stuff. And then there's just wacky, goofy cults that, you know, these two idiots from
my hometown that started this cult and took their kids out into the desert. And it started out
really goofy and ended up really sick and dark with the kids marrying each other. And yeah,
I love talking about that stuff because it's, I truly believe the only way we can prevent
monsters is by studying the monsters we know about.
There are things all monsters have in common, and it's the psychology that interests me.
That's the human condition, the mind, why do people do this?
Why do people are 40 years old, an accountant one day and go, God just talked to me and told
me that I'm a prophet and I'm going to go start a church?
Why does somebody grow up with an abusive mother that turns into a great guy and another
guy that grows up with an abusive mother turns into a monster?
Like what is the, you know what I mean?
a lot of us are abused as kids. I wasn't, but a lot of us as a people were abused as kids,
but we don't all turn out to be monsters. But there is this segment that does. And the abuse is
always there. And that fascinates me. So I love talking about stuff like that. Did you ever read
the book, Survivor by Chuck Paholnik? No, but it's in my husband's book collection.
It's a great book. Are you kidding? It's a great book. It's a couple hundred pages long. It's a couple of
pages long. It's so overwhelmingly interesting, especially, you know, because it, because he, the guy's
from a cult. Okay. I'm sorry, has your husband read it? I'm sure he has. My husband reads those
1,400 page elf and wizard books and anything that gets popular or he's interested in. He's a reader.
So I'm sure he has it. It's on his shelf. Oh, if you read the first chapter of this book or
you know first whatever 10 pages you'll be like oh wow it's you know uh paulncheck is the guy that
wrote uh fight club that's where i've heard the name yes that that's why my husband has the book
because he's obsessed with fight club it's one of his favorite books it's it's honestly it may be
better than fight club okay it's all about a guy that was a part of kind of like a cult
and what they do is it's like the eldest son when he reaches eight
they're basically trained all their lives on how to be domestic servants oh so what the oldest and
they have like eight or 10 kids and they live on a compound and what they do is they send off
the oldest 18 year or when the the oldest son gets sent off into society to make money and they send
the money back oh lord and so they go live with these multi-million uh you know in these multi-million
dollar homes with these millionaires who use them as servants and they know they just have to feed
them and they send all the money back.
And so that's how they make all their money to support their life on this compound.
Yeah.
And they're always talking about the, uh, the apocalypse and that they need to survive until
the apocalypse and then they'll, they'll, you know, whatever, um, or Armageddon.
Yes.
So the idea is.
is that if Armageddon happens and the government comes for them,
then they're all going to commit, you know,
they're going to commit.
Uh-huh.
And so,
and all the domestic servants have to do it too.
Spread out all over,
like wherever they're working.
Right.
So you go,
you found also you find out like the whole,
the whole compound or community,
you know,
10,000 or 20,000 or many there are,
they've all committed.
And then,
And so then all the servants or that are out there, the survivors, as they find out, they start committing.
He ends up being the lone survivor as people are like.
And like the government gives all of them like not probation, like social workers that have to check on them constantly.
Are you feeling okay?
Are you?
It's like, yeah, I'm fine.
Well, this explains why my husband has this book because he did his senior thesis in college on Jonestown.
Oh, yeah.
Listen, it's stuff with Jones Town.
So I'm telling you, read the book.
You won't get it off.
Yeah, I'm not the greatest reader in the world because my ADD is like all over the place.
But I'll, I'm going to read it.
It's very fast-paced, very fast-paced.
That's my kind of story.
I'm not into the 1400-page wizard books.
I can't, I can't do those.
No, it's just like it's the church thing.
Like, we go to a church, my wife and I.
And it's about, it's just.
about each sermon's just about or whatever um you know i'm catholic so i grew up catholic so i was
on mass but anyway every whatever service is roughly an hour to an hour in five minutes tim and
not too too long but to me my wife knows this about me we'll go you know we'll go on an airboat
down the river she likes to do stuff like outdoor stuff and it'll be like three hours yeah and she's like
you want to get the whole experience. I'm like, I got the whole experience in 45 minutes.
And listen, at 45 minutes, that's perfect for church. I can do 40. Because at the last 15
minutes, it's agony. I'm doing this. Have you been tested for ADD, Matthew?
No, I'm dying. It's, yeah, like it's bad. You have some of the symptoms. I like to call it
for myself. I would never say this about any else. I got a touch of the tism.
It's a little touch of the tism, and I get bored real quick.
Me too. Me too.
I love it, though. I love it when people can find their community.
That's really what I lost when I left the Mormon church.
It's you lose everything. You lose your community.
You lose your family for a little while.
I mean, I got mine back, but it's nice to find community.
So if you've got somewhere that you feel at home, I think that's amazing.
So I need, I still need to find that.
I haven't found that yet.
I'm always looking. We'll see.
It's funny because, you know, we both, my wife also, she did five years in prison.
Uh-huh.
And we actually met in the halfway house.
So, so, but so in the church, you know, they had their pitch like, hey, we have all these outreach programs.
Okay.
We do this and we do that and we raise money for this and we raise clothes and food and this and they have one for prison.
Oh.
And so my wife sent an email the other day saying, listen, we want to do that.
And she's like, do you want to do it?
I said, absolutely.
I said, if it's after five o'clock and we can go there, like during the weekend, that's
because I have a problem after five o'clock, I want to, I just munch all night.
I kind of just, I eat, I eat this, I eat that.
I just, I'm always snacking on then.
And so I'm like, listen, we'll lose weight.
If we give me one or two days a week and we go there, we don't, I won't be eating for a few
hours. I'll come home. It's your big bus program. Right. So she said, um, she's like,
okay, okay. So she wrote an email and never got a response. And I, and she said, I wonder why
they haven't responded. Like it doesn't make sense. I said, because it's all a scam. It's just
for looks. I said, I don't even have a, they probably don't even have an outreach program for
prison. It just sounds good. Oh, that would be really shitty. Really? I know, right. Yeah,
that would be really bad. I'm going to write another email. I'm going to write one. That's, that's,
That's my beef with, one of my big beasts with Mormonism is that they do have $160 billion.
A whistleblower came out and blew this wide open like five years ago.
And then it was 120.
Now it's estimated to be more like 160 billion.
And they don't have any soup kitchens, no homeless shelters, no domestic violence shelters.
They do not touch the unwashed masses.
That's the way that they look at it.
And it's frustrating for me.
when I left the church, we lived in Las Vegas, and I lived downtown Las Vegas and like a block from
Fremont Street. And so for my church, I called it my church, I would go down and feed the homeless.
And my husband and I almost got arrested a couple times because it's illegal to feed homeless people.
But they got to know me down there and I got to hear a lot of their stories and things like that.
And I just thought, you know, the church, the Mormon church could end world hunger with that kind of money.
They could go to every junior high and elementary school in the country every year and pay off all of the lunch.
debts to make sure no kid ever went without lunch again. And they don't do that. They could,
they could buy housing for the homeless. They could get water to places that doesn't have,
that don't have water. And they don't do any of those things. And so that's a real big gripe with me.
The Mormon Church, by its own admission, has donated a little over a billion dollars in the last 50
years. Well, when you have 160 billion dollars, one billion ain't nothing. You know, churches should
not have massive wealth. That is my opinion.
And I would like to see them do more.
So I would like for them to be doing, you know, more of what your church says is doing.
And the church does do things.
They do.
They send hygiene kits and supplies during hurricanes and things like that.
But with $160 billion in the bank, they need to be doing more.
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