Mayim Bialik's Breakdown - AJ McLean: Backstreet’s Back! Rehabilitation, Sobriety & Relapse

Episode Date: April 6, 2021

Mayim accompanies AJ along his journey from addiction to rehabilitation. Mayim and AJ discuss alcohol and substance use as an ongoing battle between sobriety and relapse. AJ goes into depth on the genesis of the Backstreet Boys and how his bandmates/friends helped him to see he needed help. Mayim and AJ talk about the pressures of growing up in the public eye and the difficulty of switching between "stage" personas and their own personas. The conversation segues into self-care, and AJ talks about his mountain biking, golfing, and nail painting escapades. Mayim and AJ get down to the crux of addiction: It is not about the substance, it is about why sober living is so painful. BialikBreakdown.com YouTube.com/mayimbialik  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

My sponsors always told me like, you know, it's not, we don't like to say alcoholism. We like to say piece of shitism. People have this misconceived idea that drugs and alcohol is the problem. It's not the problem. That's a symptom. The problem starts inside. Hi, I'm Iambiolic. And welcome to my breakdown.

This is a place where we break things down so you don't have to. It's my ambiolic's break. Why am I break it down for you? Because you know she knows a thing or two. And now she's going to break... Why am I sitting so far over here?

Because I want to do this. Who knows what those three chords are? Did you write that for me? I did not write that for you. It sounds like an original. It's Backstreet Boys. Today we're going to be breaking down A.J. McLean.

I feel bad to say we're breaking down a human. But A.J. McLean was the first cast member of the Backstreet Boys. and we're going to talk to him about his journey from age 14 to now, what it was like being in the back street boys, what kind of mental health challenges presented themselves, and also something he's very public about. We'll be talking about his addiction and recovery.

He calls himself a chronic relapser, and he talks all about, gosh, he talks about some really intimate things that happened very publicly, but we get the inside scoop here. Jonathan, how excited are you? my favorite, favorite backstreet boy, Jonathan Cohen. Hello, Ma'am. And I knew it wasn't for me.

Everything's for you. But I wish it was. Do you want to tell everybody's anything? I want to tell everyone that if you haven't already subscribed to the podcast, you can do so. And give us that five-star review because it helps us make more. And thank you so much for everyone who has visited biolik breakdown.com. That's BIA. L-I-K.

Breakdown.com. Now I can see that we're falling apart. Word of the Day. The Word of the Day today is going to be chronic relapse. And I know everyone out there who's saying chronic relapse is not a word. It's many words. But Word of the Day really is... Well, it's really just two words.

Just two. It's a phrase. It's an idea. And Word of the Day has really expanded from one word to some core ideas in the show. We need to make a new jingle, which I'm happy to do. called phrase of the day. That would be better. That would be more apropropriate.

It seems to bother you more than other people that sometimes the word of the day is a phrase. Most of the time it's a phrase. I don't, I think maybe if someone audits this podcast, it's been a word maybe twice. Phrase of the day, phrase of the day, phrase of the day, phrase of the day. Chronic relapse.

Someone who's a chronic relapser as A.J. McLean has described himself. You know, the word chronic is, and I don't mean it in terms of the, the marijuana. Chronic to me sounds, well, chronic, you know, like really terminal, meaning that's something that's going to go on forever. A chronic relapser is someone who has a very, very hard time, you know, maintaining sobriety. This is usually a term that's used for people who, you know, are part of, like a rehab facility or, you know, working a 12-step program,

which AJ does, and he chooses to speak very openly about that. But yeah, he's been very very public about each of the times that he's been in rehab and the times that he has gone out, as they say. One of the things that's, I think, so interesting about what we talk about with him today is what feels different this time. People stay sober one day at a time. You know, you can't know what's going to happen. And I'm sure the first time he got sober, he likely believed and he was sober for many years, you know, until he went out. That is chronic relapsar. someone who has a very, very difficult time maintaining sobriety. Thank you, Maim.

Let's talk about A.J. I got a lot of things to say because I was on Blossom when Backstreet Boys hit the big time, as it were, or at least when they started, it took many. Actually, I didn't know all the things that he said about kind of the path to when Backstreet Boys became popular and kind of what else was going on in the music world at that time. But they are one of the most successful groups in music history. Like, that's a thing that's true. And what's awesome is that it wasn't so easy for them. It was not easy.

Everyone thought that they just appeared. They're technically still together, which I don't know that I realized. Jonathan, without, I don't, you don't know this. I'm going to, without thinking, I'm going to give you three seconds to answer. How long have they been a band together? It's not fair because you told me it before. You're Canadian. You're 27 years.

Okay. So this is not a fun game to play with Jonathan. It's hard when you tell me the answer three minutes before you asked me the question. You could have acted for 27 years. A.J. McLean has been a part of the Backstreet Boys. Countless number ones. Countless. So many that they cannot be counted. It's like you can't even explain. And for people who you don't, here's the deal. You don't have to like the Backstreet Boys for these things to be true. You don't have to ever have liked them.

They have worldwide sales in excess of 130 million. They have been recognized as the best-selling boy band in history. And people are like, no, what about that? I'm telling you, that's what Alyssa said. That's my assistant. He also has solo records. He's a cultural vanguard. He distinguished himself kind of as the bad boy of the group,

and he said he will talk about a lot about what that was, what that image was. He is a multiple award-winning and Grammy-nominated performer. He is continually delivered pop music, tightly crafted songs, floor-shaken rhythms, and unmistakable harmonies. one of the genre's most influential performers. He has a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame.

He has performed for a president of the United States. He made an unforgettable appearance in the Seth Rogen hit film, This Is The End, which earned actually the Backstreet Boys a Best Musical Moment Award at the MTV Music Awards. They released their 10th studio album, DNA, just last year on RCA Records. It debuted at number one on the Billboard Top 200. And it features Don't Go Break in My Heart, which is also nominated for a 2019 Grammy. So I guess it would have been two years ago.

His work with Backstreet Boys has gone gold and platinum. Okay, you don't know this. How many countries have Backstreet Boys gone gold and platinum in? Is it over 20? It is over 20. Is it over 30? It is over 30. Is it over 50?

No. 37. More? 48. Less. This is getting tough. 46. Okay.

Forty-six countries. the group's first nine albums all debuted in the top 10 on the Billboard Top 100, and the Los Angeles Times has said, this is a great line, that their talents will survive almost any pop culture apocalypse. That's the story. That is A.J. McLean, and it's really, I recently did his podcast, which is called Pretty Messed Up, had a really great time and just so glad that he's willing to talk to us

a little bit more about his mental health history and his addiction. in particular. Let us welcome. AJ McLean. Break it down. AJ, welcome. And thank you so much for being here. Thank you for being on our podcast. And now I get to be on yours.

I had a great time on your podcast and really, really love how much of your life and time you dedicate to really sharing the aspects of your story that are so helpful. And I just really had such a blast with you. I have so many things to ask you. So many people are incredibly freaked out that I get to talk to you today. And, you know, you were, I know that you hear this stuff. You were a part of people's lives in a way that they don't want to forget. I mean, you were an incredibly important part of pop culture.

You were part of, I don't mean to embarrass you, but, you know, you were a part of a movement of music that we really hadn't experienced. that way before. And I was actually just, you know, polishing up on my AJ history. You were the first, you were the first member of the Backstreet Boys, as it were. You were the youngest, correct? Well, Nick's the youngest. I'm the second youngest. Got it. But you were younger than the the ad in the paper, as it goes, was for 16 to 19 year old. So you were the first and already, well, you were the youngest when you were first. Yeah, I was 14 when I read the ad in this thing that we got back in Orlando that was called a blue sheet, which was basically the classifieds for anyone that was involved in the entertainment

field. Right. Whether you were an actor, singer, dancer, producer, yada, yada, whatever it was, that was what we got sent to us to look at because a lot of people, you know, especially back in Orlando, there wasn't very many agents, you know, representing people. so, you know, there's no CAAs and William Morris's and stuff like that walking around Orlando. So everybody was kind of, you know, having to fend for themselves. Also, there was no internet.

I'd like to remind the kids out there. Sidebar, funny that you mentioned that, sidebar, I just watched a video maybe about a week ago on YouTube. From 1999, we had just won the MTV Europe Award. I forgot what it was for. It was either best song, best album, something in that world. the press line afterwards, and the very last person to be asked any kind of question was my bandmate Kevin. And the interviewer said, Kevin, what do you think about this thing called the internet? And Kevin's answer was, I don't know.

I think it might be big. And then that was it. And then that was it. And it's like, looking back, I'm like, man, I wish we had somebody around us that would have been like, you're going to want to invest in this thing called Google or Yahoo or any of it. But, you know, sadly, that wasn't the case. But back to your question, when I first met Lou, I was 14 years old. Wow. And there was nobody else that was cast to be in the, you know, band.

So I actually helped facilitate the initial audition process. Wow. So when you came to audition, you had to have a song and a, like, two-eighths, some kind of dance routine choreographed to show that you could dance. and anyone that didn't come prepared with a dance routine, I choreographed something to put on them. Stop it. So like Nick, for example, he didn't have a dance routine.

Oh, Nick. So I had to teach him two eights, but then Howie, how he did have a dance routine. And oh, dear God, the moves that he was doing, I mean, it was tat him out to the Carlton before there was the Carlton. Right. Let's just, we'll just stop there. Well, I'm curious, what did you? you audition with?

So I sang a song called, Didn't I Blow Your Mind this time, which a lot of people think was the new kids on the block song. But that was actually, they covered that song. I don't remember who the original artist was. I don't remember either, but yeah. But it's definitely from like the 50s or 60s.

Right. So I did that. And then I just freestyle danced. Yeah, that's what I was going to ask. When did you dance? How'd you dance? Tell me.

I mean, you know, I grew up as a dancer. So I was never a singer, initially. Like I did musical theater. Between the ages of six and 12, I did like 72 plays. You know, I was all about theater. That was my love, my passion. But, you know, so by doing musical theater, you're, you're kind of doing everything, singing, dancing, acting, all of it. So, you know, I sang the song for Lou. And then he's like, him and two other people there were like, okay, do you have any kind of dance experience? I'm like, as a matter of fact, I do. So I did, you know, just a little freestyle, pop and locking hip-hop.

all the stuff that I grew up learning and basically got signed on the spot. I was the first person. You are, let's see, you're three years younger than me. So when you were 14, I was 17 and I started on Blossom when I was 14. I know. I was a massive fan, by the way. Thank you. That's freaky.

So by the time, this is just like full disclosure. You know, I graduated high school at 17. So like I was in a very different world. Obviously, I knew who you were. But, you know, I was, I was, like, already deep into Elvis Costello and Bob Dylan. And, like, I didn't necessarily keep up on a lot of kind of the goings-on of, you know, of Backstreet Boys. But for sure, you know, I was raised on Bobby Brown and Belbiv DeVoe and, like, boys to men. Like, that was my...

Same. Exactly. Right. So I loved so much of also that kind of group vibe, which, you know, you obviously have a poster, a very famous print of the Beatles behind you, but you were part of really a new generation. When the ad came out in the blue sheet, it specifically said, looking for five all-American white, you know, Caucasian men between this age and this age, allah, new kids on the block meets boys to men. Right. So, you know, the look of new kids. But they have to be white. They must be

white. Yeah, the look of new kids, but the sound of boys to men, that, you know, type of do up harmony. So when we finally formed, because myself, Howie and Nick were the original three, there were two previous members that didn't work out. Right. And I'm sure they're kicking themselves today. It's the Pete Best story from the Beatles, yes. It just didn't work out. So when we lost the first member, we got Kevin. Kevin was working at Disney World in Orlando at the time. And through mutual friends through Lou, they got to Kevin. And then Kevin kept bringing up to us because we then at that point fired our fifth member. Now we're down to four.

We have no fifth member. We didn't want to do the whole audition thing again. So we're trying to figure out how do we get a fifth and final member? And Kevin said, well, I've got this cousin, Brian. He lives in Lexington, Kentucky. He can sing. I assume he can dance because he's got rhythm. Let me give him a call.

And he gave him a call. He was literally a junior in high school. He got called down to the principal's office And he never got called in the principal's office So he's probably like, what the hell's going on? And it was his cousin Kevin on the phone saying, hey man. I like that this Backstreet Boys call had to happen during school hours. Oh, yeah, exactly. During school hours.

That's the movie version. And he's like, so listen, because I know I haven't talked to you since probably the holidays, but I'm in this band and I would love for you to maybe, if you're interested, fly down or drive down from Kentucky, meet the fellas, meet Lou, and then let's maybe sing something and see if this fits.

And the first song we picked out the harmonies to was a Boys to Men record. It's so hard to say goodbye to yesterday, which was it. Got chills instantly. And we were in our little bandhouse garage and literally we picked out the harmonies. We sang it and we just knew.

We just knew. Like this is the group. Like this can be no other five. and that was it. Right. And like literally that that was the start of it. April 20th, 1993. 420.

Yeah, I know. We're never going to let that one die. That's its own story. So you were raised in Florida, right? Yes, born and raised. Is your mom Cuban? My grandfather is Spanish. Got it.

My grandmother was born in Leipzig, Germany. Oh, wow. So my mom has the Spanish and German, and my father, my biolog, father is the Scottish and Russian side. Oh my gosh. You're a beautiful mix. Wow. Yeah. It definitely makes sense why I was a raging alcoholic for a lot of regions. Okay. We'll get to that. You did. You had all the genes working. My Ambialx breakdown is supported by Superpower.

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So your life then from the time you were 14 was, I'm assuming, like you recorded, you go to the studio, and then at a certain point, your life becomes touring, correct? Yeah, so basically from 93 to 96, we had no major record deal. We had no, not really management.

We did get management. like a 94-ish, and we did what we called the, I'm going to say it wrong, I think, but the ESM tour, which was basically touring around the country, doing middle schools and high schools. Oh my gosh. We had recorded with some local producers in Orlando. We had three songs, and then we had two acapellas.

One was, color me bad, and then one was Shies, if I ever fall in love. And so we did all these middle schools and high schools. we would go in the gymnasium, we would dance, we were all in matching outfits because that was the thing back in the day. We did a show in North Carolina and a gentleman by the name of David McPherson came and saw us.

And at that time, he had worked for Mercury Records. So we had a potential deal on the table. And then that deal fell through. So we had to go back to the, you know, back to our roots, bouncing around from label to label, literally singing at the grand opening of a pet store. We sang on airplanes.

sang for our food. Lou flew us up to New York, and we went from label to label to label. We sang Acapella in like the lobby. Right. Because the acoustics were perfect. And then we did a show in Orlando, and two people from Jive Records flew in.

They watched us live. They watched the fan reaction. And we flew up to New York the following day, and we signed with Jive Records, which was back in 1995. Oh, my gosh. And, you know, we had a seven-album deal with them. And it wasn't really until 99 that things kind of got flipped on their ass, basically,

because we broke in Europe first. We used to call the U.S. no-fan land because we would fly back from, like, thousands of girls at the airport to, like, cricket. There was nobody. So eventually, by going over to, like, Germany, Austria, Switzerland for about two years, Then through France, the music leaked into Montreal, Quebec, and then from there leaked into Z-100 in New York. The Canadians, Jonathan's a Canadian. We credit him. I mean, God bless the Canadians, man. So that is how things finally hit for us here and, you know, our home country.

And next thing you know, they're shutting down Times Square on TRL. It's mass hysteria. Oh, no, it was. All I hear is the Canadian Maple Highway brought the backs. Backstreet Boys to America. Basically, yeah, because at that time that we tried to break here, you had Nirvana, Pearl Jam, Gray, and Snoop. That was it. That was dominating. And then Biggie, like, that was dominating the airwaves.

So while we were in Europe, this girl group called the Spice Girl shows up in the U.S. And blows up on radio. And these three young brothers called Hansen blow up on the radio. and that opened up the doors for us to kind of come back and again all the while watching Blossom having a crush on you and six. So weird. It's weird. And I tried to speak as fast as six didn't and I can never do it.

But I was I was literally like that was my show. That's too. TGI Fridays, all of that stuff. Like I was a huge. That is so weird. It's so weird. I mean, very flattering and also strange. People ask me this, but I'm going to ask you this.

If you had to encapsulate and especially kind of knowing what, you know, was coming for you in terms of your, you know, your struggles, what was it like? Because, you know, when people ask me, what was it like to grow up, you know, like that, blah, blah. And usually I say it was a combination of like fun and also like this kind of ever present pressure that no one really talked to. about because the expectation was so high that I constantly performed at the level I was supposed to, you know? Right. Of course. I mean, is that what, is that what it felt like? I mean, I was like stuck in a box, right? I was on, I was on a soundstage and every three weeks I went back to my public school and everybody was like, oh, she's so weird. She's on TV, whatever. You know, but you were out and about. You were in the world and interacting with people. Like, I was mopey and listening to Nirvana, you know,

is really what happened. But what was it like for you? Obviously, you guys can bleep this if you need to, but it was fucking awesome, number one. But on the other side, it was fucking depressing because, you know, for the longest time before we really hit big, you know, a lot of people were their opinion of our timeline was, oh, these guys were this overnight, you know, success. No, it took us almost six years to get to that success. And you were children. I mean, you were kids. Yes. I mean, Nick was 12 when he joined the group.

Kevin was 21. You know, and but... It's still a kid, you know? Yeah. Oh, no, I mean, all of us are big, we're big kids, believe me. I mean, I still play with Nerf guns. Anyways, as do I. The biggest problem for me was there's Alex, who is me, you know, and then there's

AJ who became this persona. And the problem was, is every time I take my first person, you know, and then there's Alex, you know, take my first step off the stage after the show was done, I never could separate the two. Right. So AJ had to continue as the night transpired and live up to the hype of the quote-unquote bad boy that I got nicknamed because I had tattoos and I dyed my hair pink. You were my favorite for that reason. Well, thank you.

Without even trying, I subconsciously was like now looking back, was looking for that external validation constantly. And the minute that the, you know, stage lights were off, I still thought that I needed that to be accepted. I still thought I needed that validation to be important, to be someone to still keep that facade going until the wee hours of the morning every day and every night. And obviously what ends up happening in those situations is you start to hang out with the wrong people, the yes men, the yes women.

You know, women was a thing, like, you know, young. I got these girls that are like 25 and I'm 17 throwing themselves at me. And I'm like, okay. You know, what boy wouldn't want that? So, you know, I definitely went through this kind of roller coaster. But then once I found drugs and alcohol, I was like, this is a cakewalk. This is the best life ever. I want to get into that.

But I also kind of want to. And I'm not asking you to speak. for the other members of the band. I'm asking you to speak for all of humanity. But I think what people don't understand is there are differences in us that make us differentially susceptible to needing that or wanting that, you know? And, you know, I'm not looking to dig into your child and I'm not looking to psychoanalyze you, although it's fun to do that with guests. You can take 100 people and put them in the same situation and you're going to get a lot of different responses. You can get a lot of different reactions, you know? And so when people say to me, like, oh, how did you not get into drugs and alcohol?

Like, it's such a complicated question as to how and why we find ourselves. Obviously, anyone in that situation would be saying, like, well, this is pretty novel. You know, this is a spectacular situation. And a lot of things are going to be presented to you that you might not have anticipated, but it's that individual variability. I've battled therapists with my opinion four years, which is, you know, I still don't 100% agree in the concept of addictive personality. Right. My opinion is you have a choice. Everybody has a choice.

Now, the difference is, like you said, the different variables, if you put those hundred people in the same scenario, me being one of those hundred people, instead of choosing to have one glass of wine, I had six bottles. So there, you know, but that was my choice. The rest of the band, you know, Nick and I were the ones that publicly people saw us struggling. Nick being the youngest, his family dynamic, which was a complete shit show in itself. He had to deal with that publicly. You know, same with me.

You know, at that point, I chose. to make the announcement when the guys went on TRL to say, hey, AJ's going into treatment. We want to, you know, send our well wishes and, you know, people were, fans were crying and this whole thing. And it was a really emotional thing. But some of the other guys, how they would react,

they just go the other way. They go, they become an introvert. You know, I know some of the guys in the band, they don't really do a lot of social things. They don't like to go out and do things or be seen. That's how they were able to, kind of cope when it got out of control. But me, I wanted to be seen because I thought that's what validated my character.

That's what made me feel, you know, all the feels was I've got to be at the brand new grand opening of this club or I've got to have the nicest car. I've got to have the jewelry. I've got to have the hot, you know, trophy girlfriend. That's sort of the sparkly aspect, you know, we call it the sparkly alcoholic. You know, there's a lot of, there's a lot of stuff that supports kind of that, you know, Well, you know, it's filling that God-shaped hole. But so how old were you when you went into treatment the first time?

It was July 9th of 2001. When I went in, you know, there have been years, about two and a half years straight, where I literally did not see the sunlight. You know, I would go to bed when the sun was rising and I would wake up when the sun was down. I was doing at least a fifth of jacket day and eight. of cocaine and night by myself, which is a lot. I mean, that's a lot even with friends, but it's a lot on your own. It's a lot on your own.

And, you know, just hanging out with the worst characters you could imagine. But again, these were those hangar-oners, those, you know, yes men and yes women that made me feel superior, even though I was more inferior than anything. And I was this scared little lamb never really taking time to, you know, nurture that. I just said, you know, the minute I felt sad, okay, I'm just going to drink it away. Before I went into treatment, we were supposed to throw the first pitch out

at a major league baseball game, and it was our day off. And the night before we had a show, we were in Boston. And we all agreed after the show that we would all show up on our day off for like an hour to go throw the first pitch out. It was the first game of the series, yada, yada.

I had an all-nighter, and in the morning, the morning of the game, got my wake-up call. I said, you know what? I changed my mind. I'm tired. I'm not going to go. And that, in turn, pissed off the oldest member, Kevin.

He was like, no, this is BS. You said you're going to do it. You know, it's not my fault. You were out all night. He broke down the hotel room door. I locked myself in the bedroom, which had a double bolt. We exchanged some pretty nasty words. but the lasting thing that he said to me is,

I will never trust you again, you are dead to me. And when he said that is when something just clicked. And I was like, you know what? I don't need this. I quit. This is bullshit. And called my manager, called my security. I said, I'm flying home.

This is dumb. And I literally flew from Boston straight to Tucson, Arizona, door to door, as they say, and went into a 30-day program. Because had I gone home, you know, to be with my family, you know, they may have tried to fix me and I would have been like, I'm fine, I'm fine. That was the right thing at the right time.

And it absolutely had to be done because I was definitely on the quickest downward spiral I've ever seen. So you got sober and you were sober for, was it six years? Six years. and then relapsed, literally over nothing. I know you do talk publicly about, you know, aspects of your relapse, but I'm not asking for details specifically,

but since you are a person with so much, you know, insight and intelligence and recovery, what was it really? So we were in Belgium. We were having a day off the following day. So a couple of us were just hanging out, shooting the shit. Nick had gotten pretty drunk and his personal security

had also kind of had a couple drinks and they, you know, everybody was just chilling out and I went to hang out in Nick's room and Nick and Nick and his security got into an argument and it stressed me out. There you go. And I'm like, and I'm like, okay, I don't want to be around this. I'm going to go back to my room.

You guys deal with it. I go back to my room. I pop on a movie in the room. I pull out a can. bar. I'm sitting there eating my snickers out of the mini bar. Probably cost 15 bucks. And I went to grab a Coke. And I ended up not looking at it. I just grabbed the bottle and it turned out to be a Heineken. And I sat there for like 20 minutes contemplating the ups and downs of what could happen, the ramifications if I drink this beer. And the ism

crept back in. I drank the beer. What did you tell yourself? I can do just one. I can do just one. It's been long enough. Yep. Got it. And I drank the beer, didn't touch alcohol for four more months after that one beer. Right. But then, as we know, it was two beers. And then the cycle went on and on and on. Literally, I think the longest stretch I put together from that moment to 13 months ago was maybe, I don't know, four months, maybe six at the most, I could never, I was a chronic relapser, period. You know, the pandemic to most people, yes, has been catastrophic.

And I don't disagree with that. It totally has. But for me, it has been a blessing personally, only speaking for myself, because being home, being off the road, being stuck with myself, doing a meeting every single day with my sober friends since the lockdown happened on March 16th, I've been able to. able to finally do the work that I've been putting off for the last 15 years. Every time we work on ourselves, you know, whether in a 12-step program or not, you know, anytime we decide, like, I'm going to stop pushing it away, I'm going to just get into it,

right? Every time you're still uncovering new things, right? It's why when people work, yeah. It's like when people work the steps, you don't work them once. You get to the end, you take a little breather, and then you start again, right? Like, we work the steps repeatedly. what is it that feels different this time? Like, what's the level?

And it could be, and look, sometimes I feel like if I never left my house, I wouldn't, I wouldn't fuck anything up because I would just be interacting in this small world. And that feels really safe. But, you know, we want to be able to take the wisdom, you know, when it comes down at the top of the mountain, and then come down the mountain and be able to interact with, you know, the rest of humanity. But what has this period been like for you? What feels different or special? First and foremost, my last hurrah was definitely the straw that broke the camel's back with my wife.

You know, she has been through too much and deserves every award conceivably possible to put up with my shit. But she never left. And, you know, she also is Al-Anon. Yep. And she has seen glimpses during these past few years of what I could be. if I just buckled down and did the work. But the real turning point for me was my youngest daughter, when I came back from Vegas, reeking of alcohol,

she went to hug me and she didn't. And she said, you don't smell like my daddy. That was it. That was the most, that is about as rock bottom as I would ever want to have. And the very next day I went to a sober living that a friend of mine had been at for years and she was getting her three year sobriety cake. And I turned to my mentor and I turned to my now sponsor and said, bro, it's time. I'm done. I am done. I can't do this anymore. I will, I'm either going to end up, you know, DUI arrested, dead. Yep. I'm going to lose my family.

I'm going to lose everything. And that's, I just, I can't physically can't do it anymore. And from, and the very next day I showed up. We dove into the big book. We started doing the work. And the biggest change for me now is compared to them many times before, I can truthfully look in the mirror and say that I love myself today. I'm happy with myself today. And I am the most perfect, imperfect version I could ever be. This is my youngest daughter. This is lyrics. Hi. Love you. I am the most perfect, imperfect version of myself. And that's fine because nobody's perfect. There's no reason to be perfect.

I have no desire to be perfect. I want to continue to grow and continue to learn more about myself. And, you know, I just, it's so hard to pinpoint the exact feeling that I feel daily now. But I wake up refreshed every day. I wake up, inspired. And it's nice to have people. like my wife especially, look me in the eye every morning and every night

and the lights on. You know what I mean? That's the biggest thing is the lights on. A friend of mine who's been in program for years, who is a very well-known actor, I will not say his name. I respect his recovery to the utmost. I put him up in the top.

And for him to tell me the same thing, he's like, AJ, I've known you for years, but I can, can see that the lights are on. And that is a thing that we say in this program. And it just makes me feel great to know that people that may not see me every day can see that the lights are on now. And I want to keep them on.

I don't care how much the electric bill is. I'm keeping the fuckers on. What's the rest of kind of your mental health, you know, regimen, as it were? You know, meetings is very important for people who are part of 12-step programs and, you know, having a spiritual program because, you know, a 12-step program is a spiritual program of recovery. But what else do you do? Do you exercise? Obviously, you like to paint your nails. It's very important self-care. Yes. Pre-dancing with the stars, I started getting back in with my amazing trainer. And I told myself, well, look, I can't go to the gym. I can't go anywhere.

I'm on lockdown. I have no excuse to not get in the best shape of my life. I'm 43 now. You know, I just had a birthday last month. Happy birthday. Thank you. And it's like, you know, there's a lot of people. They put on the quarantine 15 or you shed it off. And I'm like, I'm not, I'm not, since I don't know when I'm going back on the road, the least I could do is start to really take care of myself.

And that also came from being sober and working this program is wanting to be happier and healthier. Golf is another big thing for me. Golf? Golf is a huge thing for me. I've been golfing my whole life. Wow. Big, big, big, big fan of golf.

And then most recently, started back last summer, my best friend and I, we have a little squad, predominantly sober guys. We go mountain biking. We just did 32 miles yesterday. It's literally like a two-wheeled meditation for me, you know, daily. I try to ride at least four or five times a week. Wow, that's great. I used to do therapy. I may go back, you know, at some point, but as of right now, currently no.

Right. But I think the number one thing that I do that is my daily reprieve is make music still. I'm working on a solo record right now. That's great. My first official one. We just shot the video a couple weeks ago. It's also very much needed in the climate that we still live in, just spreading love and tolerance and acceptance. and positivity.

That's my big thing right now. I am all about positivity. That is it. You have a podcast as well, which I was on. When did you start that? The night of the first episode of Dancing with the Stars.

Wow. So literally we had done the deal with I-Heart and then literally next thing you know, they're like, why don't we start after the opening night? And we did it every Monday after every show. And then obviously once the show was was finished, we changed our schedule around. But it's been great, especially getting to know Cheryl on such a more personal level.

I mean, we were obviously very personal relationship bond on the show. But that's a different Cheryl. The Cheryl that's on the podcast, the Cheryl I talk to on the daily is a different person. She's just so full of joy and full of love. and it's just, you know, a different person. She's very much, very strict on the show, I'll tell you that. Oh, my God. I was like, I don't like you on the show.

I like you off the show. People that are in your current situation, there's going to be a lot that are listening, people who are struggling, people who are maybe not sure, thinking that I'm sort of, I'm okay. I'm sort of holding it together as best as I can. And so from your experience, what would you say to them? Yeah, I mean, you know, one of the first things,

things that was said to me when I stepped foot in my very first meeting was the only way around is through. And I never really fully understood that statement until I was in the thick of things. And unfortunately, we as addicts have to go through the ups and downs to find that, you know, for each person, it's a different level. It's a different bottom. My daughter telling me what she told me, that's pretty freaking low. But look, relapse is, I hate to say it, but relapse is part of the deal. We have to not be so hard on ourselves.

We have to be willing to get back on the saddle. If you are someone that is struggling, it's a chronic relapser, first thing I'm going to tell you, get a sponsor, work the steps, go to meetings. These are such crucial things that are needed for your recovery. You know, I've met a lot of people that have gotten sober with no program. And I hate to say it, but I sit back and go, it's only a matter of time. I hate to say that, but it's like, okay, good for you. You have 11 years sober. But you're not recovering in recovery.

you're a dry drunk is what we like to say. Yeah, I was going to say the difference you dry and sober. And I don't want to be that way, mentally think about it like that, but that's what I've experienced in seeing people go out that have years of sobriety.

If you're not working a program, it normally doesn't end well. Statistically, it doesn't end well. But I will never tell someone you have to go to AA. I just know for me, that's what's keeping me alive and sober today. is my program that I do.

That's the only. A 12-step program is all the only thing that's keeping me alive today and keeping me sober and keeping my family together and this roof over my head. Without that, I already know I would be out there. Stay close to people that are supportive

and don't beat yourself up. You know, it's if you relapse, a lot of times people that stay out is because they beat themselves, up. They're like, well, I drank, I'm a piece of crap. I might as well. No, you're not a piece of crap. You're just hurting. You're struggling. But you're not a bad person. You know, for people who, who do want to numb, either with drugs or alcohol or sex or food, I mean, you know, we do it with a lot of things. Oh, yeah. What are you learning that allows you to tolerate those feelings?

Because it's not like the feelings go away. You know, like, shit happens all the time. And that same, for example, that same, that altercation that you witnessed when you went out, this used to be the joke that they used to say in AA meetings when you could smoke inside, anytime a speaker mentioned a feeling, you heard all the lighters go. Because, you know, even the biggest, toughest guys, that's what you're drinking to make go away is what you feel like when you feel anxiety, grief, sadness, right? So that same fight today might not make you drink. So what did you, what do you learn in sobriety that allows you to not need to numb it and instead breathe through it? Like, what is it? My sponsors always told me like it's not, we don't like to say

alcoholism. We like to say piece of shitism. People have this misconceived idea that drugs and alcohol is the problem. It's not the problem. That's a symptom. The problem starts. The problem is inside. The problem is internal. It's not external. Once you realize that, you get to a place where you know you are no better and no worse than anyone else, then you start to get away from that piece of shitism. And in that, once you get through that piece of shitism, which again, like you said, it's going to pop up once in a while, but you learn how to control it. You learn how to maintain it by working a program. And for me, it's like,

I got good days and bad days like the rest of everybody else. I don't wake up with freaking unicorns and daffodils every day. There's days where I wake up where I'm just like, F everything. I don't, you know, my kids are driving me nuts, this, that, and the other. But it doesn't make me want to pick up a drink today. It doesn't make me want to use today because I know the number one thing for me right now is leaning

into the uncomfortable. If I'm not okay about something, instead of numbing it like I used to, why don't I sit in it for a minute and figure out how to get through it, you know, whether I call my sponsor or I call another alcoholic, or I sit and talk to my wife, or whatever it is. Take a walk. Take a walk. Go to the gym. You know, go to the course, whatever it is.

I don't have to numb it anymore. I can literally embrace it and handle it and deal with it and talk through it and walk through it. That's how I cope today. I love that. That's so beautifully said. I just have one more question. When you golf. Yes.

Do you go with your nails and all your tattoos? Oh, hell yeah. He takes his tattoos off. No, I just like, I was just watching the Tiger Woods documentary. And like you think about the image is very good. But you think about the image of golf and like, you know, it's a very like. very specific kind of look. And like, I just love picturing you on a golf course, like with your nails.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, I, you know, when I joined the country club that I'm a member at, like, you know, years ago when I wanted to join, but I was never home and I didn't join, I was rocking a mohawk, the tattoos, the nails, a guyliner. Guy Liner, I love that. Believe you, me, there was quite a few members looking at me like, okay, who is that? this asshole and why is he here? That's so cool. And then they, and then they see me hit the ball.

And they're like, oh, okay. This kid's got game. He's not. And then like, he's like, he's doing all the right things. He's fixing his divets. Right. He's raking the bunkers. He's not just acting like a total ass. And raking his bunker. Yeah. So, but, you know, now it's weird. As I've gotten older, you know, some things have changed, but this will never change. The nail polish will never changed. Have you always worn nail polish? I'm trying to think. Gosh, I've worn nail polish since probably, I want to say, 99. Okay, so I want to, I want to know, and then I promise I'll let you go. You know, we used to call this embracing his feminine side, but I also feel like that's really like, it's kind of like it's misgendering also, because it doesn't have to be a feminine

side. Like, I mean, look, you know, Robert Smith from the cure had painted nails and that was like his goth vibe, you know, but I'm just curious, what's your, what is your thing? I mean, looks cool. I first, well, first and foremost, I completely embrace my feminine side. I have no shame in that. You know, I, it's, it's a form of self-expression for me. And it's always been, and now even more so, I have my own nail polish brand, inspired by my kids.

I love that. I have two girls. And not to say that there are not some super empowering female athletes because there are. Sure. But my girls, not the biggest in the sports. They love dance, singing, playing guitar, playing piano. So when I have my daddy daughter dates, we go get our nails done. That's what we do.

And like, you know, we sit there. We get the manny, the petty, the whole thing. And we sit and we talk. Like we don't go to the movies where you're sitting and you're watching something and you can't have a conversation. That's my idea of a hang. I want to sit in a dark room where you don't have to talk. I grew up around predominantly women and gay men. That's what I grew up around in musical theater.

There's a lot of nail polish floating around then. There was a lot. Like I was introduced to the gay community at a very young age. You know, my parents split up when I was very young. So I always looked up to the, you know, female figure because my mom kind of had to run everything, two jobs, the whole thing. So I always put women up on a pedestal, and I always wanted to respect women to the, you know, highest. And then I just saw the gay community as, okay,

so it's two guys that like each other, two girls, who cares? You know what I mean? Now I'm a massive supporter for the LGBT community. You know, and I'm just so happy that things are slowly changing in the right direction now. Absolutely. I will say this, though. I've definitely expanded my palette for color over the past probably five years.

Black was the only thing I did. Got it. Always black, black, black. And then once I started doing my daddy daughter dates, I've done pink. Yeah, you've got to color it up. I love it with the tattoos. It's kind of my favorite thing right now. Tell everyone where they can find your line.

At myavidine.com. That is where you can find the Avidine brand. We have a family pack. We have a nice, like a Chanel red that I call Ro Ro Red, which is named after my wife's nickname. Right. Ava, who's my oldest daughter, hers is pink. Lyric, it's like a periwinkle blue color. Obviously, mine is black.

Right. And so, yeah, that's our first round. And then we're going to move into the spring line. I love it. That's really awesome. You can also check myself, Cheryl Burke and my mentor, Renee Elizondo, on our podcast. pretty messed up. Huge crush on Renee, by the way.

I have such a crush on him. I don't know what happened when I did your podcast. I was like, I love this person. Was she swooning? I was swooning. He really wants to pick your brain. I thought he was so fascinating. Okay, sorry.

Sorry, I'll let you plug away. Pretty messed up. Yes, you can get it wherever you can get podcasts. It's on I-heart radio. So, yes, it's, you know, we discuss mental health, recovery, and how we've been able to put our lives back together after crashing and burning. So, yes. Okay, my last question.

So your last name, well, Irish, correct? Could be Scottish. It's Scottish. Okay, great. So American Pie was written by Don McLean. Any relation? You know, for so many years, I kind of hoped that we were related. Not so much.

Okay. It's probably like Smith in Scotland, McLean. It must be a very popular. Yeah. AJ, thank you so much. Really a pleasure to speak to you again. And just such a, I mean, like such a worlds collide. I can't believe that we existed really at the same time in different aspects of the public eye and that I get to talk to you and tell everyone how awesome you are. So thank you. And I think the world of you, like I said, I had a freaking crush on you back in the day. I'm telling you. I still do. You're freaking awesome. You're so amazing.

Thank you. I will be your second wife. Yes. That just happened. Okay, done. Jonathan, so nice to meet you. And I'm just going to say this. As soon as things, you know, die down some more. Oh my gosh. Can we hang out? Yeah, I want that. And we want to be first on the, to hear the new album. Yes, also. Yes. Yes.

Mostly I want to get a pedicure with you. Okay. Done, done, done. Let's do it. Let's do it and film it. Put it out there. Thank you so much. We wish you the best and all of the good things you have going on. I have famous friends now. Here's what I took away from that interview. That he's awesome.

That he had a crush on mime. Just saying maybe one of the Backstreet Boys songs was written about me. You could have gone on tour with him. Oh my gosh. Can you imagine? Could you imagine you on the side of the stage just dancing on your own? I used to pop lock. I could do that.

I could sing. Let's see some pop and lock. For those people listening at home. She's popping and locking. At her desk. That's a story. He's got a big story. and, you know, he had to go through all that publicly.

He had to go through all that. Like, so many people go through these kinds of struggles and don't have to do it with everyone knowing. You know? It's like a different level of expectation of like, now I'm in rehab and like then everybody's watching. I mean, he's very famous. He was very famous when this happened.

I heard that band was pretty big. Did they not have them in Canada? I was also a music snob at that time where I was like, Grateful Dead and all the music of the 60s. I don't know if that counts as a music. Stop. Deadhead. It was like my group of friends, we turned our noses up at super popular music.

But that's probably why we didn't have girlfriends. Yeah, if you wanted the girls to like you, you had to sing, I want it that way. It's pretty cool to hear him talk about how it's not a failure. You know, people think of like recovery as a linear process. It is not. and it is not a linear process. Well, and like, you know, you're done when you're done, and he wasn't done. Him saying, you're not failing, you're not a piece of shit, you are having an experience

and you're hurting. But that is very different than the judgment that can be seen in a linear process. For sure. I'm going to do this, and then I'm going to get better. And then better is this state that becomes unachievable. Well, and also that notion of, you know, that alcohol and drugs are not the problem. like living sober is the problem. And everybody deals with it in different ways, you know,

and for some people they find that numbing out is the way to deal with it. We all have to deal with the human condition. No one's immune from that. I mean, to say that no one's immune from mental health challenges is also true, but things happen all the time that will make you want to not be sober, you know?

Like, and for those of us who don't have an allergy to alcohol, you know, which is, you know, kind of what A.A. sort of refers to it as, for those of us who don't have that, we know that if we're going to a party or a wedding and we don't know anyone, like easier just to have a glass of wine, you know, quote takes the edge off.

But for people who have an allergy, you know, they say one is not enough and a thousand drinks. No, one is too many and a thousand is not enough, you know. That's how I feel about this podcast, mine. I think that's a good thing.

Thank you, Jonathan. I mean, just the second part where that's never enough, not the one is too many. You know what? It doesn't really work. It is enough. Let's do an Ask MyM-Anything. Ask MyM-anything.

Yeah. Ask MyM-anything today is from Laura, who wants to know how does ketamine influence the development of neural pathways in the brain? I don't know about the development. That's not really specifically what we study regarding ketamine, but I can speak to what ketamine does to the brain and neural pathways. Laura, I hope that's okay. Let's do that. I mean, if Laura needs to know about the development, she needs to speak to a molecular. biologist to actually talk about development of pathways. But ketamine is, well, it's classified as a

dissociative, injected anesthetic. So one of the amazing things about pharmacology is that, you know, drugs are designed and discovered that do things and are very, you know, can be very helpful. In particular, ketamine is used as literally as an anesthetic, like for surgery. It's used in, in veterinary circles still, it has been used in battlefield situations. It can make the need for morphine less. And, you know, morphine is obviously very easy to get addicted to that feeling. So ketamine is kind of used as an alternative. It can also be used as an amnesic. Sometimes you're given an amnesic for procedures. I had a very significant dental procedure. And it's not uncommon when you have a significant dental procedure that they do. They give you a little bit of an

amnesic. Amnesic? Amnesic? Amnesic. Literally so that you don't remember. It's the men in black one, but ingestible form. A little bit. However, what drugs often do is create other effects in different doses. And, you know, I'm going to try not to sound like an old person here. But one of the things about drugs like ketamine and those kinds of drugs when they are used recreationally is it's all about dosages. And here's the thing. Here's what I tell my kids about drugs. you think you have good judgment when you're 15. You think you have good judgment when you're 18.

You might even think you have good judgment when you're 21. But the fact is when you are trying to get high, your judgment is not always great, especially if you've had a couple drinks first. So trusting a person who's giving you a drug like this, which can have very significant effects on your central nervous system, is a very dangerous thing to do. Like impacting your breathing.

Impacting your breathing, correct. And, you know, no one wants to think that's going to happen to them. But, you know, this is not a fun, this is not a fun game to play when you may end up in the hospital with your heart having a really hard time. That being said, like, let's, I'll try and bring the young person back. Ketamine acts on glutamate and an NMDA receptors. And what it does is it, you know, it prevents inhibitory. neurotransmitters from making you feel down. I mean, like, that's the simplest way. It makes you feel good. It is dissociative in that at certain doses you do not know that you're in your body, which can

actually lead to when people hear about bad acid trips. You can have those kind of experiences, which can be obviously very upsetting, can send you to the hospital and also can have traumatic effects, meaning while a bad acid trip or a bad, you know, experience with ketamine may not kill you, I mean, chances are it will do other things first. The experience of having that kind of bad trip can be traumatic and the effects can be long lasting and can lead to a lot of other problems, which is why we try to avoid these kinds of drugs, especially with a developing brain. The other thing about ketamine, and I know people are going to be like, I wouldn't use a needle, it is often injected. And injecting drugs brings up an entirely different level of concerns.

And of course, I mean, this is such an awkward thing to say, of course you want to believe that you would never share a needle with someone. But when you are in an impaired state, you will do things that you otherwise would not decide to do. And it makes me really sad because, you know, when you know people who have died of drugs, it's very, very hard, you know, to think about what kinds of decisions are made, you know. know, in those times. So the thing with ketamine is it is, you know, highly dependent on dosage and in the right, you know, clinically monitored amounts, it is starting to be used for what's called treatment resistant depression. So this doesn't mean that like, you're feeling depressed or like,

you know, you've had a death in the family or like, you're stressed out. Let's try ketamine. Like, that's not how it works. Ketamine in a clinically monitored environment is very, very different. And it's typically used for depression that that has gone through a course of the other less potentially problematic drugs that are used to treat depression. So obviously most people have heard of like Prozac or Zoloft and things like that. The reason we start with SSRIs is because they have been tested for the longest, which means they have the least complications and side effects. So once you've done all of those things and tried those medications,

if you are still having severe depression, this is what some doctors are, you know, are starting to use, and it's on its way, I think, to get wider approval. And that's the ketamine story. Thank you, Ma'am. That was kind of a downer. I'm sorry. And thank you to Laura for the question. If you have a question, you can visit biolik breakdown.com.

That's BIA. L-I-K. Breakdown.com. Let's think about puppies. That makes everyone happy. Or you can ask Ma'am anything. Puppies. And if you haven't already, please give us a five-star review.

Wherever you find your podcast, subscribe. and we so much appreciate you listening. I think we'll just stop there. I really do want to thank AJ for coming on and sharing so much of his story. Really was touched by so many aspects of what he shared with us. And from my breakdown to the one I hope you never have, we'll see you next time.

It's my and Beaulix breakdown. She's going to break it down for you. She's got a neuroscience PhD or two. One fiction, and now she's going to break down. It's a breakdown. She's going to break it down. You know,