Mayim Bialik's Breakdown - Alison Desir: Running While Black, Competent Counseling & Caregiver Burnout

Episode Date: May 20, 2021

Alison Desir, athletic activist and counselor, blurs the line between mind and body through the integration of two of her passions: community based mental health and running. Mayim and Alison examine how running has fit into each other’s lives and how it has provided a meaningful coping mechanism to deal with life’s many stressors. Alison ends her segment with an amazing discussion on the black experience in the United States and how empowering exercise can be for black and brown communities! BialikBreakdown.com YouTube.com/mayimbialik Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Do you poop during a marathon? Like, what if you get hungry? Can you eat during a marathon? Like, this was like so foreign to me. Do you poop during, you don't poop during a marathon, do you? Elite athletes have pooped themselves and got on to win marathon. I mean, if that's not the sound bite for this episode, I don't know what is. Hi, I'm Myambiolic and welcome to my breakdown.

This is the place where we break things down so you don't have to. Today we're going to be breaking down running. It's Myambiolic's Breakdown. She's going to break it down for you Because you know she knows a thing or two So now she's going to break down It's a breakdown She's going to break it down

That's right, running And I don't mean metaphorical running Although it may come up I'm talking about literal running We're going to be speaking to One of the 20 women Changing the Sport of Running

Her name is Alice Dazir. But before we bring on Allison, I'd like to introduce the person I always want to either run to or away from Jonathan Cohen. Hello, my name. It's a marathon, not a sprint with you. Hi, Jonathan. Jonathan, do you run? Have you ever run? I used to run. I used to run cross country. Really? Yeah, I did. I was a pretty good runner. Never, never like competitive. But That big body can run. It was much smaller at one point. I ran in like middle school.

I ran in a little bit in high school. Then I stopped running and used to joke that I only ran when someone was chasing me. And then I ran a lot in university. I like went. I was in the southern hills of Vermont and I would like run with the cross country team to get in shape for basketball season. Are you serious? Running was. I didn't know this about you.

And running was always the very, very, very best feeling in the world. like the high that comes after you run 40 minutes. 40 minutes you would run? I would run hours. I would run cross country through the hills of Vermont. Like up the hills, down the hills. We would run for like a couple hours. I can't imagine.

Like a group of dudes? Yeah, there was a group of us. We would like alternate because... Did you talk? We would talk sometimes. Actually, this is interesting. So I was a waiter when I was 18. 19. You were a waiter? You don't know me at all. I don't know you. I don't even know why we're here. So I was a waiter and I would get off shifts at like 11.30 at night and I would go for runs with my manager and he was like, I don't know, 20 years older than me, but he was like used to be like a real runner. And I was a basketball player just trying to stay in shape and I wasn't playing basketball. So I like wanted to get exercise. And so like I would put my Jordans on to go cross country running with him. But I was like 18 and had so much energy. And this guy was like just.

I can do anything. I'm puffing and puffing beside me in his real running shoes. And I'm like slapping my feet on the ground. And anyway, that's my running. You also, this is something that I do know about you, which people can't tell. You have exceptionally long legs. That's true. You're a tall person.

95% is legs. I think you, no, you're actually, you're a well-proportioned tall person. You seem much taller than you are. And I've heard that from almost everyone. Talk more about my proportions. Six-two. but it's not even like you're mostly leg. It's that the leg that there is just looks longer than a leg should be.

I joke that I have between my ankle and my knee, there's like... There's an extra part. There's an extra section there. So I'm trying to picture that right. I mean, like, when you play basketball, like, oh, it's like that's what that body's made for. Like, that's what those Polish jeans did. They made a basketball player. I mean, I was always really small on the basketball court.

and I was always way better at basketball when I ran. Huh. I did not picture you a runner. You were a runner, right? This is the time. There you go. I was going to say, this is the time when most people would say,

Myam, did you run? I was a sprinter. I'm sure that does not come as a surprise to anyone. I ran in junior high. Well, one of the things about me, I do just about everything fast. So changing into gym clothes, which was a thing that happened back in the 1930s,

when I was a child, you would have to change into your gym clothes. And then basically you had whatever it was, 10, 15 minutes until class started. And in that time, you were supposed to just, like, run as many laps as you can. Well, I changed so quickly. I even many days would just, like, have on sport socks with whatever I was wearing so that I didn't even have to change socks. And I would just get out there right away. And I loved it because you got to cross it. I mean, it was like honor system. There was a chart. And next to your name, you would, you know, cross off with hash marks, is that what they're called? How many laps you did? So four laps made a mile and my goal was to try and run a mile every day. Sometimes I'd be held up with some like gossip at the locker.

And then I'd only run like half a mile or something. Very rarely did I only do a quarter mile. The thing about me, I was very, very tiny. I'm actually an average sized woman. I'm five foot four and a half. But I was extremely tiny. I was four foot 10 still in junior high. And that's pretty little. You keep the four foot 10 attitude, even though you're, or five, four now. Do I have Napoleon complex? Anyway, I was four foot ten. I don't even think, I mean, I wasn't a hundred pounds.

I don't think I, I mean, I was, there was nothing to me. I had not hit puberty. A fact that you like to point out every episode. Every episode. I mean, I'm just saying that that story works without that fact, but you like to put it in there. I don't know why you're putting a hash mark on each episode, how many times you drop that fact.

I was very athletic. I have an athletic build. I'm a mesomorph. What is a mesomorph? It has to do with your body structure and your bone structure and like where muscles get distributed. I was a ballerina. I'm not done.

I'm not a hobbit. I was a tiny, tiny person. And I mean, you could see all my riblets. Like I was see-through. I mean, I was just like a tiny person. So I was a really good runner because there was nothing. on me. And I remember I would, you know, my friends or just like other girls who would, I mean, I didn't really think of it like then, but they had already hit puberty. They had hips. They had breasts.

Like, A, they didn't like running because the boys would tease them because like all the parts of you move when you run. And like it didn't even enter my mind. Like I was just, I loved running. And so many girls were super self-conscious, you know, about like the gym outfits you get to wear. I had no idea. Like, I just like, whatever. So I would run. And I ended up my best mile, I did run a mile. It was not my best running, but my best mile was just under seven minutes, which I was very proud of.

And I did like a quarter mile, and I think like 120 or 124, something like that was my record. I ran relay races. I wore knee-high. Well, back then it was A.C. Green style. He was a Laker, right? Am I right?

He was a Laker who didn't have sex, and he never missed a game. Well, that was me. Anyway, I wore knee-high socks. We had to wear like, you know, special socks. It was white with a green stripe. And I ran in high top green converse because it matched my gym uniform. Our colors were green.

So, I mean, I didn't, like, we didn't even have, like, Nike's to run. It was like, I looked like one of the, you know, Boston Celtics is what I looked like running. Well, Boston Celtic mesomorph. Loved it. And then I didn't run for years, you know, I took up bad habits. I had children. I mean, that wasn't a bad habit. But I had children.

and when you've had children, your body, it does not do the same aerodynamic things, at least in my experience, did not do the same aerodynamic things. I had four hernias. I basically spent years either having surgery, recovering from surgery, or preparing for surgery, because four hernias is a lot. Anyway, when I got divorced, I took up running again. And it was the most liberating thing. And it's not like my now ex-husband was like, you can't run. It was nothing like that. but it was a thing that I did to physically get out of the house.

We were separated. We were at my mother-in-laws. I still call her my mother-in-law. And I think it was like Thanksgiving. It was some holiday. And we were still there together because we still, you know, we were still part of a family together and our kids were little. And I remember, like, running got me out of the house.

Like I didn't need to, like, wake. We didn't obviously sleep in the same room. But I was like, I just, like, needed to not be in the same house all at the same time. And so I would run. And my mother-in-law lives near this really awesome creek in San Jose. And I remember, I remember one morning,

I said to Mike, I was like, I'm gonna run to the creek and he's like, that's really far. You're gonna make it? I ran to that creek. I ran back.

Like, I didn't even, like, think twice. And it was like, it was so liberating. It was so freeing. I'd put my little headphones in and I would just run and I just like,

you know, you look at cars, you look at people, you look at nature, like you find nature. I loved running and I kept it up until my knees said, no, thank you. I ran for several years. I mean, it was probably the best shape that I'd been in as an adult. It's like the best workout.

It's extremely hypnotic, meditative. It's amazing. But very hard on your knees if you're running on pavement. So yeah, my body didn't love it, but I loved it. I even got into like I had running socks because it makes a difference. Feels more cushiony. Did we tell people why we're talking about running on a mental health podcast? Although it's not really mental health.

I like to call it mental health and emotional well-being because it's really the experience of being human. Okay. It's already too many words. No one's like that. We're talking about running because our guest today is Alison Dazir. She's been named one of the most influential African-Americans between the ages of 25 to 45. She is an endurance athlete. She's an activist. And in particular, she's a mental health advocate. She's all those things. She's the founder of Harlem Run. That's how we say it. How do you say it, Jonathan? Harlem.

Harlem. We don't say it like that. We just drop that R. We don't need it. Harlem Run, which is a New York City-based running movement. Also, run for all women, which is an initiative that has raised over $150,000 for Planned Parenthood and $270,000 for Black Voters Matter. She's the co-chair of the newly formed Running Industry Diversity Coalition, which she's seeks to make the running industry more equitable and inclusive. They've also raised over $250,000 for the 223 Foundation.

She's currently working on a book, which is called The Unbearable Whiteness of Running, which is going to come out at the end of 2022. And I learned about Allison. I can't even remember how I found out about her, but she's such a powerhouse woman who does all of these things. and also I really, really appreciate, first of all, like a strong woman mental health advocate because I think it's super awesome and special.

And also I love someone who's not afraid to say this is something that's traditionally been for white people, but there's nothing about it that cannot be an expression of diversity and awesomeness. And it's so beneficial. It's also like running's one of those things. Like you don't need equipment. It's such a great sport.

Like that's why I love it. like you just literally strap on your shoes and go. Anyway, I'm very excited to speak to Allison. She has a baby, and I really want to hear. I want to hear from her sort of what her personal running journey was, like how she came to it, like you and I have our stories. But I want to hear how she came to it and then like how it occurred to her to like make this a transformative thing.

And also just her mental health work is so inspirational. So very, very excited. Let's welcome Alison Desir. Welcome, Allison. It's so nice to talk to you. Thank you so much. An honor to be here. I just want to give a shout out to the fact that you look like you just took a run. Like you've got your little cute, sporty hoodie. And like I used to, when I ran, we didn't have AirPods. So I ran like that. And you got like the thing in your hair. Did you just take a run? This is just actually how I always look. Is that why you became a runner? You're like, well, I always look like I'm running. I might as well.

No, this is a style I adopted. It's just so comfortable and, you know, I could just go for a run if I wanted to. Anytime. Well, and also, you've just moved all the way across the country from a state near and dear to my heart where you can't run any time. And now you've moved to where the weather is a little bit more, I would say, friendly for running, although possibly rainy. You're now in Washington, correct? That's right. Seattle, Washington, as of two months ago.

So like, just. Well, welcome. Welcome to our coast. And when you said AirPods, I remember being in university and wanting the disc man that didn't skip so that I could run on the treadmill. That's right. Oh, my God. It was like, it was this big. It was practically the size of an LP.

And you'd be like, I'm trying to run. You have to like pay extra for the one that wouldn't skip. The anti-skipping one. So just so you can know a little bit about us, I was raised in Los Angeles. where you can run any time of year. And I ran track in junior high. I was just a little bitty thing back then. And I ran like the wind.

That was me, like Adalanta, just ran. And I was a sprinter. I excelled at, you know, quarter mile. And I did run an under seven-minute mile. Still proud of it. And I did relay races and all those things. I was a general track person, you know, back before I had children. And then felt like my body would never leave the ground

because I was always pinned down by a human. And Jonathan is 6 foot 2 and about 6 feet of that at his legs. So he was a runner when he would basically be in between basketball seasons. Technically as a kid, it was in between hockey seasons. So hockey was winter. Oh, he's Canadian in case you couldn't tell. I just heard it. I don't have an accent, I swear.

He's spoken for, Allison. I know. The accent is sexy, but just simmer down. Simmer down. So Jonathan would run, he went to university, in Vermont and they would run up and down the hills. He ran with a group. I ran solo. And then I didn't run for many years. And after my divorce, I took. Always solo. After my divorce, I took up running. And it was literally like, I ran my grief out. You know, I live in L.A. where everything's kind of

suburban. You know, it wasn't a track. And I, you know, I basically ran until my knees said no. So tell us a little bit about sort of your, you know, your upbringing, were you raised by, exceptionally athletic people. Are you from Harlem? Because I know you have connections to Harlem. Yes. So first answer, no. I was definitely not raised by exceptionally athletic people.

I was raised by some of the daughter of immigrants. My father came to this country in 1959 from Haiti. My mother came in 1957 from Columbia. Wow. And actually both of them, they didn't have a lot of opportunities. My father was the oldest of like 15 kids. my mother, the oldest of six. And so a lot of responsibility fell on the both of them. They also were coming from countries that less prosperous countries, developing nations.

And so when they found themselves here, there was a real focus for them on education and doing the best that they could. For myself and my brother, they wanted to make sure that we had every opportunity that they didn't. So I was that kid, I was in, they put me in music school, in art school. I was in karate. I was in like basically, any and everything you can imagine. And I actually earned the nickname very young, powdered feet, which comes from the Haitian CREEL saying, describe somebody so active you don't see them,

just their footprints in powder. I love that. I was like, I was going to school, they're getting bused here, bused there, carpool, all of that. And I was running the quarter mile in high school. I ran the 400, the 400 meter hurdles, mostly because I really wanted to be a 100, 200, 200 meter runner

and go to the Olympics. But they were like, yeah, That's never going to happen for you. We need to just keep moving you up. Okay, wait. So I have a couple questions because, you know, I am curious. The first thing I'm going to ask, do you speak Spanish? Do you speak French?

Do you speak both? I speak a little bit of Spanish, a little bit of French, and I can understand a little Haitian Creole. Wow. Follow up for that. My parents came to this country at a time when it was all about assimilation. Yeah. And they wanted, they gave my brother and I a man.

American. I'm using quotes here, sounding names. They wanted to make sure. We'll call her Allison. Exactly. The other option was Lauren or Lindsay. And I'm like, I dodged a boy. Oh my God. I want you to be a Lindsay so bad. I dodged major bullets there. So yeah, it was, you know, my middle name is Mariela. And so that was a combination of my grandmother's last names. My brother's name is actually Christopher Henri. Okay. After Henri Christoph, which is one of the fathers of the Haitian Revolution. Nice. So there were like, if you're in the know, there was like some cultural historical context. but yeah, it was just a time where, which is a time not very different from right now, but where immigrants face a lot of pressures and hate. And they wanted to, you know, give me the best options I could have. My grandparents are first generation Americans and they never really mastered the English language. And my mother did not speak English in her home.

She was raised in the Bronx. She was born during World War II. And so the story is that when her older sister went to kindergarten, my aunt did not speak English. She spoke Yiddish, which was the language of Eastern European Jews, and literally, like, walked into this school like, good morning. Like, I speak Yiddish. And everybody's like, who's this child? But they gave my mother and her sister's ridiculous American names.

My oldest aunt was Pauline. My mother's Beverly. And her younger sister was Harriet. And my grandparents, like, literally barely even had American names because it was just the mispronunciation of their actual names, you know from eastern europe so yes totally get that but i just love that they named you alison super into it with one l okay one out got it just like very elegant um so tell us about i know this might sound like a weird question but i would ask it of a man as well what was your body type like

like were you naturally athletic like you know i was like i was a mesomorph and i had zero fat on my body because like i hadn't hit puberty and i was like the perfect runner because i was made of Balsa would, like, but strong, you know? What was your body type like that you were like, oh, I like track? Yeah, I was, everybody looked at me and said, oh, you must run track, right? So I had, I looked like a runner. I had that track girl's body, except that my calves were really tiny. And I remember I would line up at races and girls would legit shame me for my calves at the

starting line. This is the skinny calf club. Jonathan and I also have very tiny calves. What's the deal? Yeah, so there was just like so much I would have to silence the shame. I'm showing calves. I just showed my calves. We're doing a skinny calf competition?

No, mine are very skinny. Okay, but otherwise, were you tall? Like I was 410, for example. I used to do calf raises to try to get bigger calves. Well, I've got a lot of cuts in my calves because of all my calf raises at different angles, but they're still skinny. But were you tall? Were you? I was very average.

I was, well, I was then and am now. I'm 5'4. And 5455, and I've really been that for such a long time. Right. So in middle school, I had the advantage because everybody else was smart. My NBi Alex's breakdown is supported by Superpower. We all know the feeling of leaving a doctor's office and kind of feeling like we didn't get anything out of the experience that was useful. Maybe they're like, you're fine.

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superpower. Superpower. Not only did Superpower reduce their price to just $199, but for a limited time, our listeners get an additional $20 off with the code break. Head to superpower.com. Use the code break at checkout for $20 off your membership. And after you sign up, they'll ask how you heard about them. Make sure to mention Myambiolics Breakdown to help support the show. You went to Columbia, correct? Yeah, correct. And you went there for a long time, it seems like, because you got a lot of degrees. Like all the degrees. What did you study and tell us a little bit about sort of your journey into like how you,

you know, started working in all the arenas that you ended up working in? You know, obviously you're, you know, you're a fitnessy person, which is awesome. But you're also a mental healthy person, which is awesome. And then you are also like a very strong woman of color, especially in the industry that you are in of running and mental health. So like tell us what kind of what you wanted to study. and what that was like and sort of how you got into the career that you have. Yeah, sure.

I'll tell the college story, but I also have to say that a big part of growing up in my home was receiving messages and history that I didn't get in school. So I remember very vividly studying the Louisiana purchase in 10th grade APUS history. And never in that discussion did we talk about Haiti. Meanwhile, I went home and my father was like, The only reason why that happened is because of the Haitian revolution.

I was reading the Black Jacobin in my home, which tells the story of Jean-Jacques de Salin and Henri Christoph and all the enslaved Africans that created the first and only successful revolution of slaves on the Western Hemisphere. So I was getting this history at home, but it definitely was not something that I was getting at my private school. I actually really liked my private school. I really excelled in school, but it was not.

not a cultural fit for me and that I didn't see myself and my history was never told. On the other piece of that is that my mother is an anthropologist. So I was just like just getting such great information at home. I decided to go to Columbia because there was also a lot of pressure, internal pressure really, but pressure at the school to go to the Ivy League. I wanted to be in New York. So I went to Columbia and I got there and then I had no idea what I wanted to do. There was a bit of a cultural shock there because suddenly I was a around more black and brown people, which is like very sad to say because Columbia is a predominantly white institution. It has a very small percentage of black and brown folks. But still I was like,

look at all these black people. So I also got super distracted. I was, I was in school, but then I was like partying Tuesday through Thursday because only late- Because you were so excited there were black people. You're like, I need to celebrate every night. I'm so excited. I was, yeah, I was partying and then you rest on the weekend because that's the. the bridge and tunnel crowd, right? Shout out to anybody who knows what I'm talking about. But I was just like, I had no idea what I wanted. And ran into like a lot of trouble with drinking and missing class.

And then I graduated and felt like, oh, I have this degree from Columbia that should mean something. That should open some doors. But, and I don't want to deny my privilege there. I recognize that it's a, you know, it's a big privilege having gone to that school. But I still had no direction. So I ended up working at a law firm. the partners at that firm told me that my job as a paralegal was so easy that they could hire monkeys to do it.

I was like, you know what? I don't think this profession is for me. Also not an okay thing to say in general to anyone who's trying to like start their life out and their career. Yeah. Exactly. And that's, yeah, I was like, this is not the space for me. And then I just was like all over the place.

I worked at a nonprofit. And I found myself back in school getting my first masters because that was a space that provided me with structure and allowed me to feel like I was progressing. It's very safe. I mean, I have a doctorate. I was in school for 12 years straight and I went to the same university. I went to UCLA for all those years. So I was like, oh, I know where I know where my favorite snacks are. I know this janitor. I can talk to him when I'm bored. Like, exactly. Exactly. And so my first master's was about, I was in Latin American and Caribbean studies. And I actually really dove in to my Haitian ancestry. And that my thesis on that, my thesis on

that I was looking at border dynamics at the border between Haiti and the Dominican Republic and issues of identity. And I was like, okay, I'm definitely going to get a job in Haiti or in the Dominican Republic. That didn't happen. Yeah, graduated. I know I want to, no idea what I wanted to do. And also my father at this point was like five or six years into a Louis body dementia diagnosis. And so I couldn't find a job. I was, for him, I was like helping to clean his diapers.

I was taking care of him. And I just, I found myself very, very depressed. And, you know, looking at my friends on social media who appeared to be living their best lives and they were posting like happy hours. And all these people I had gone to college with who graduated, been in finance for now like six years were like popping bottles, buying apartments. So I was very, very depressed. And I only rediscovered running because a friend of mine, a black man was posting about his experience on Facebook training for a marathon. And this stood out to me because I was like, I know black people run short distance. I know we're track athletes, and I know that East Africans are marathoners,

but I've never seen like a regular-ass black dude training for a marathon. And so that's what started this journey towards running. And also, if you don't mind me inserting my science brain, there's actually, I mean, there's some really interesting books sort of about the physiology of in particular elite athletes in general. And, you know, one of the things that's very disturbing and scary for some people to realize is that, like, Michael Phelps, his body's not built like other people's bodies. Like, he has an exceptional physiology that specifically helps him do the things he does. And one of the things that I like to talk to people about, which I just, you know, it's one of those things that sticks in my head is that, you know, different, different people have different distributions of slow twitch fibers and fast twitch fibers.

So what you're talking about, I just want to make sure that people aren't like, why is she generalizing about East African? And the fact is, there are different distributions in different populations of slow twitch fibers versus fast twitch fibers. The slow ones take longer to fatigue. And if you do have a large proportion of those fibers, you tend to be more of a long-distance runner. So much as I'd like to believe that, like, I could run a marathon. And sure, everyone can train.

Everyone's physiology is different. So marathon running is different. And sometimes you can be a fantastic sprinter, but literally not be able to go the distance as it were. So a marathon is something I've always wanted to do, but like, I don't know if it's in my body to do it. So, well, anyway, keep going, but I just wanted to insert a little science in there because it's fun. Yeah, yeah. So I followed his story. He was training for the rock and roll San Diego Marathon. I was going to take place in June of 2011. I followed his story. I started reaching out and asking him questions like, do you poop during a marathon? Like, what if you get hungry? Can you eat during a marathon? Like this was like so

foreign to me. He answered them and sure enough, you don't poop during a marathon. I mean, you can't, if you have to, you stop and poop. Sometimes it happens, of course. But what you want to do is you really want to make sure you wake up early, you eat. Did people do enumas? Sometimes they must. I'm sure people do. I am sure there are some people who do that. There are other folks who unfortunately shit themselves while they're running, right? Because your body, well, you know this. You're the scientists, right? Your body is using all of

its energy. Yeah, your body's mad. And it's like, you know, need to stop doing what you're doing. So here's what we're going to send out. Because maybe that'll make your ass stop. Elite athletes have pooped themselves and got on to win marathon. I mean, if that's not the sound bite for this episode, I don't know what is. But, you know, so he ran the, he completed the marathon. And then it was a year later. So it was actually January 12th of 2012. And the date is significant because that was the day after the two-year anniversary of the earthquake in Haiti that just devastated the that side of the island and took so many lives. And I just was like, you know what? Like, I'm going to do this today. So I signed up for, uh, to run a marathon with

team and training, which is the not the training arm of the nonprofit, the leukemia lymphoma society. So you raise funds for the organization and in return, they give you training for the marathon. So I trained for that marathon. And I just felt like I was finding myself every week. I was running, longer and further than I ever had. You know, all those things that, like, first time marathoners write about, like, their eyes opening, their perspective changing. You just, like, you start running,

and you just basically, like, run a long time. And you don't necessarily think about, like, how far did I go? You just, like, you just run. And then, like, you start adding and building. And then, like, the next thing, you know, you run for six days. And, yeah, I haven't pooped. I don't know.

I mean, it's, it's more, like, They're, it's really hard. But what I really liked about it is that was the mental piece, right? So I thought like, wow, there's so much physicality involved here. You have to be like in the best shape of your life. And certainly it's like physically taxing. But so much of it is a mental game of pushing yourself further than you thought you could, running for longer than you ever have before.

Like when I ran my marathon that June, I had only ever run up to 22 miles in training. Only, only 22 miles. Also, her first master. Like, I like all the qualifying terms. So I got my first masters. I only ran 22 miles. Like, you're already my hero. I don't know.

But there's that 4.2 gap where you're like, can I do that, right? The answer is, yes. I think if you've done 22, you could do 26.2. What do I know? That's also where the wall comes in, right? That's where, like, for a lot of people,

if you haven't been drinking your water appropriately and taking your nutrition, it's like, boop, you're done. But anyway, so you're just, there's so much, so much of a mental piece connected with it. And that's, I started getting really interested in that and sports psychology and mental health. And what did I do? I applied to school again, good old Columbia University. And I went back for my master's. They're going to name a wing after you.

They'll be like, she's giving us so much money in tuition. Got my master's in counseling psychology. And that, talking about like how I got to where I am today, that master's really helped me see one of the very real connection between physical and mental health, but then it also opened my eyes to a social justice perspective on health and wellness. And the idea that mental health, there for sure is psychopathology that goes into why somebody might have a mental illness, but then there's also racism, sexism, misogyny, transphobia, all of these structural realities in society that have a deep negative impact.

on your mental health. So if you are a person of color living in poverty, personal color who's an immigrant, whatever the case may be, you might have just low level anxiety and depression by the very nature of the oppression that you witness or that you experience daily. And so that just sort of like unlocked something for me and that it explained some of my experiences. It allowed me to see the world in a different way. With your second masters, what was your thought? Like this is the space that I want to resonate in. What I think is really neat about you and your various degrees is you really, you're like it's going to sound so dumb.

And I do feel like, and as a woman who people ask me things that you'd never ask of a man, I don't mean to say that this might sound like something, you know, but like you're like the whole package. Like you're, meaning all of your, you know, life experience has really informed all of these decisions in very meaningful ways. So it's not like you've compartmentalized like, oh, this is my family history. and like, oh, I'm a woman of color. And like, oh, I also like to run.

Like, you're like, what can I do that brings all the things? And some of the work that you've done is also raising tremendous amounts of money and resources for places that need it and deserve it. And so, like, also you've been able to combine, like, literally, it's almost like you made your own degree, you know? Yeah, yeah. I mean, is that kind of what it feels like? Yeah, it does. And thank you for saying that.

but it feels like I was able to just, and I wasn't aware of it as I was doing it, because as I was doing it, it felt just like a shit show and I was just like grappling at straws. But it really was, I've been able to nurture each of these sides of myself and then think, okay, what's the synergy here?

And to your point, so after I got my master's in counseling, there was a moment where I did want to do one-on-one counseling because I really love just being in a room with somebody and feeling that trust when they open up to you and seeing somebody through that process. But I realized where I could shine and make the most impact

is in community interventions. So the type of fundraising and awareness campaigns and bringing people together. I know that I have that kind of energy to bring people together and to get people to give money to important causes.

And I was like, this is where I want to be at the intersection of mental health, running social justice, and advocacy work. I love that. Tell us a bit about

your depression and kind of what it looked like. I mean, you've touched on several things that Jonathan and I really find as like our sweet spot for this podcast. One is the mind-body connection, which is obviously really profound. And you'd think one of the most basic things

that we should all be taught. But for some reason, we don't trust thousands of years of Eastern traditions, you know, trying to tell us this. But I am curious kind of what your experience with depression was like because also the depression that comes with,

for example, caring for a parent who's ailing. My father died of a neurodegenerative condition. And so also there's that, you know, it's kind of a low-level constant, you know, agitated depression, especially if you're a caregiver. There's what to do, you know, and especially as women, I do think it's an extra special set of like pressure and circumstances around it. Can you tell us a little bit about sort of what that looked like for you? Did you get help at that time? Were there other things you did? Did you eventually get help? Did it, you know, kind of enter part of your decision to go into the mental health world?

Yeah. Yeah. So there's another piece that I didn't mention is that I was also in a really bad relationship where I just kept wanting to feel valued. I kept looking for this person to validate me and they were never going to do that. So there was that and then I was caring for my father

and I just felt like I felt really helpless and this was connected to the fact that, you know, watching to. to your point, watching somebody who you care so much about just like little by little, and then towards the end, not so little by little, but like just degenerate and like something that they could do one day, the next day they can't do. And I like, I have to tell you, like, you don't ever want to be changing your parents' diapers. You know, you don't ever want to be, at one point, my father only started speaking Creel. And one, I don't know if he was really,

I couldn't understand him. I don't know if he was speaking. true Creole or just words in his head. And so much of what he was struggling with was also just trauma from Haiti, right? So he had these terrible visions of the Tonto Makut, which were the secret army of Duvalier, of the dictator. And so he, like his nightmares were partially his life come to reality. It was just, it was just so, such a mess. And then you have myself and my mother trying to take care of him.

And then my mother, it was a lot for her. And so she started to get really depressed and take sleeping pills. So it's, you know, when one person in the family goes through this, it's the whole family. It's a family disease. Yeah. Exactly. And then on top of that, I'm feeling worthless because this person doesn't love me. And then I also can't get a job.

So, you know, what I wanted was I wish that I could sleep for like two years. I kept saying, I just want to go to sleep and then wake up on the other side of it. And so I spent all the time in my bed, trigger warning, when I could. get access to Xanax, I would just take it and go to sleep and wake up and take it again. I don't think I actually wanted to not, well, I wanted to not be on this earth, but I wanted to wake up in a moment when things were going to be okay. And it's only when I got to a point where my mother was like, you know, this is unsustainable. That's not even the right word, but this is not okay. I also, I had, I started out 125 pounds, but I was like 100 pounds. And so I did go to see a psychiatrist.

and I was finally able to talk and share what I was feeling and realize that I was not the only person feeling this way. There's a quote by, God, now I can't remember who said it or the exact thing, but essentially there's nothing worse than thinking that you're the only person in the world who feels this way. And I really thought that that was it. Like, I was the worst person and I must be the only person to have these thoughts and I don't deserve to be here. And my psychiatrist, like, did a lot of validation and did a lot of, well, under the circumstances,

you are doing the best you can, but you can be better, right? Like, you don't have to remain in this place. And that coupled with finding running, which helped me find community, really, really helped me. But to this day, I take, you know, I take antidepressants and postpartum depression is a whole other story, right? I had to up my prescription. I really believe that the stigma prevents people from getting the holistic care that they need, you know? You married a person. I need to know.

is he athletic? I met him through Harlem Run. Of course you did. I wanted you to be like, nope. He's just like, I wanted you to be like, he's a musician and he's like 900 pounds and I love him anyway. Okay. No, she sold day rights already. It's a romantic comedy.

Well, you know, if Instagram wants to sponsor me for this story, we met via Instagram. Wow. That's lovely. And you made a baby. Yes. Is your baby athletic yet? at 21 months? How many marathons has he run at 21 months?

And why only that number? I mean... No, but his name is Corey, which it's actually Kuri, which is the Haitian Creole word for to run. I love it. That's sweet. He's Kuri-onri. So again, that's the Henri Christoph.

So I wanted to make sure that he knows who he is. He knows where he comes from. I love that. We've had therapists on here before. And it's something, you know, they're usually talking about like the book they wrote or like the thing they do, whatever. But I'd love to hear your perspective on sort of you mentioned what it's like to kind of sit in a room with someone. And, you know, obviously you do a different kind of mental health work and advocacy now. But can you talk a little bit about that particular experience and what it feels like, you know, to talk to people who are going through things maybe that you went through and needing to keep kind of, you know, professional barrier, but also like really wanting to relate to people?

like what kind of counselor kind of, you know, were you trained to be? Yeah. So I still have, you know, I practice from a feminist perspective. Some people are like, what does that mean? She hates men? No. Tell us what it means to practice from a feminist perspective. So from a feminist perspective, you look at, as I mentioned before, you look at not just what the symptoms, the symptomology or the illness, but you look at what are the ways that society and outside.

influence is impacting this person, right? So what are the, as I mentioned, what are the systems of oppression that are at play? And another piece of that is also advocacy, right? And so looking at how you care not just for the patient in the room, but part of your work is also outside of the room, being an advocate, being committed to social justice so that you're not just making an impact on this person and their individual problems, but you're making an impact on the larger society, right? So that's the framework that I had for counseling, along with that. that is some amounts of self-disclosure are okay, right? So you have one end over here where it's like,

no, you're a blank slate and you don't want to bring anything into the room. And then for me, so feminist perspective, also social justice-centered and multicultural counseling is for certain people, if you as a therapist sit in the room and are completely tight-lipped and don't give anything, that person will never give anything either. You know, it gives homage also to traditional acts. academic feminism, which a lot of people don't even know about, which is that women have an innate and special. I'm not saying better, although sometimes it feels better, but women do have an innate and special ability to have access to things.

Emotions, communication, connection that allows us to solve issues or help people work towards issues of race, class, and gender, regardless of where they're coming from. but that that's a unique perspective and therefore a unique approach which specifically addresses the fact that you are a woman and coming from a feminist perspective if that makes sense. Jonathan, did that make sense? Yeah, it makes sense to me. I know it made sense to my buddy Allison, but I'm just taking it. Yeah, yeah.

And it's relational, right? And there are things that must be said in the room. So, for example, one of my clients who I loved, she was also a black woman. She was a first-generation American. and she had gone to similar schools. And so I wanted, I self-disclose, I was like, look, we have so many social locations. We share so many social locations that at times, I want to let you know that I'm going to have to separate, like you might be looking at me as though we are sharing the same experience.

Some of these experiences will be shared. Some of them will be completely new. So I'll check back with you and I'll let you know if there are times when I'm feeling triggered or enmeshed, right? So part of the feminist perspective is also sharing those kinds of interventions in the room. And what I found is that I wanted to, I wanted to share more of myself. And so that's why I moved towards community interventions, right? I found that I do have this special thing where people feel like they want to open up to me. People feel really connected to me. I want to open up to you.

I feel connected to you. See? You've got a great smile. Like, I just feel very held by you. What's been really cool also is that, I feel like I have a really good knack for helping people identify their power. So I founded Harlem Run in 2013, a movement dedicated to fitness and mental health for predominantly people of color based in Harlem. I started then 2013, and there were people who showed up who just, you know, like cared a little bit more or who just seemed a little bit more interested. And I always loved finding those people and supporting those people. and now those are the people who are leading the group. I love that.

I'm here in Seattle. And so it's just, yeah, I really, really thrive in making connections and seeing people, you know, get to whatever it is that's next for them. Alison, it is so nice to speak to you, and I really, really do appreciate it. I want to ask you one more thing that, you know, is something that you haven't touched on, but is an aspect of mental health, in particular for people who birth children. You know, I was very, very fit in my youth, and I was like a weightlifter. And, I mean, I prided myself on being very athletic. I mean, it's like I did Brazilian jiu-jitsu.

And, like, I was a very intense athlete. I was raised playing racquetball. Like, if you can't, like, scream and bump into people and potentially hurt yourself deeply, it's not a sport. So when I had kids, it was very, very shocking. because I literally, and also I was, you know, I was a dancer. I mean, I was a classically trained ballet dancer, you know, for eight years. And the sense that my body literally could not leave the ground the way it used to was very, very strange.

And, you know, it's not like I couldn't do things, but it didn't do the same things. And as I talked about in our intro, I also, I had four hernias. My father also had hernias and he was also very fit. It's a congenital, you know, weakness in those walls. But also I did. I made very hefty children who got very heavy, very quickly. So I also was carrying, you know, very large heavy children who could not walk because they were still babies, but they were the size of toddlers.

Anywho, four surgeries later and blah, blah, blah, because that's what happens. like the limitations of my body became in and of themselves extremely depressing. Forget about that it didn't look the same. Like literally, if I didn't have to look at myself naked, that would just be better. But the notion that it didn't move like it used to was very, very difficult. You know, when you exclusively breastfeed, which I did, you're also physically tied to someone in a way that like makes your body not your own. and yes, women who don't breastfeed also have attachment to their child. I'm not saying they don't, but in particular, if you make a decision, you know,

in particular, breastfeed, like it's very, very different. And so I'm wondering if you can speak a little bit, like, as an athlete, you know, as a mental health person, and also just as like a human freaking being, like, what was that, you know, like, how did you find that? Because, you know, you see these women who are like, I ran a marathon seven months pregnant. And it's like, that's not fair that you exist. and please stop posting about it on Instagram. You know, for me, it was also completely shocking. And to your point, like the folks, the women who are posting, like,

living their best life pregnant and postpartum, I'm like, just stop. But I think, like, what's the real problem is that there is not enough experiences of pregnancy and postpartum shown, whether that's on social media, whether that's in the media, whether that's like just opportunities to speak about it like this. So I had this really constrained idea of what it was like. I thought, because I was an athlete, I'm going to run through my pregnancy. I'm going to feel amazing. I'm going to like almost be giving birth while finishing a marathon. Something like that, right? And in truth, at 16 weeks, I had to make the decision to stop running because I had a hematoma and they couldn't figure out,

well, they couldn't figure out when I was bleeding if I was bleeding from like the babysack or if it was something else. Yeah. And also, you're pregnant. Stop running. And And just like, get ready to have your whole universe rocked instead of also running. That's my feeling. Right, right. And then on top of that, I had fibroids, which is very common for black women. And the fibroids were at a certain point, they were like outgrowing the size of my son. In your lady parts?

Exactly. And so I was really disillusioned with the fact that I couldn't run. And then on top of that, I was getting a lot of messages around like, oh, at your, like, after, you go to your six-week appointment, and then by three months, you should be able to run again. I was just getting all this information that as an athlete,

I should be able to do this. When in truth, I had an emergency C-section at 36 weeks because I had preeclampsia. Right. Yeah, it was like through the roof, and they were like, oh, you're giving birth today.

So there was the trauma of the C-section, not that C-sections in and of themselves are traumatic, but this was like. It is a stomach procedure, though. It is not, like, I mean, let's just be clear. They are cutting through the walls of your body. So sorry, Jonathan, I know that's a lot of detail. But the trauma of not having the birth you wanted is a real thing.

And if you are a person who's prone to having emotional experiences and being very in touch with things, that can be very, very traumatic. Absolutely. Yes. And to your point, like, it is major stomach surgery. It is. It's a thing. Yes, people are having this every day, but it's like, it's wild.

Yeah. I remember, like, I was awake, but, you know, you have anesthesia. And I remember just the feeling that, like, suction feeling, like, something's beautiful out of you. It's like, all right, I'll stop there. Yeah. But so then it was, it was, it was so hard. And it's still hard for me, right?

I did not snap back. I realized that that is just not a thing that's going to happen. It's also not most people's experience. And forgive me, F Instagram for also giving me the notion that that's supposed to be my, it's not, it's actually not, I don't want to say it's not normal, but it's, like when you have a bait, when you've just, you know, either squeezed a watermelon out of a garden hose, as I like to say it, or had your baby airlifted out of you, it should not be expected that you do look, act, or feel anything like you used to before. Exactly. Exactly. And so I did not look, act or feel anything like I did before. The C-section was so painful. And then even as a mental health, like trained in mental health, and at the time I was practicing. as a counselor. I knew a postpartum anxiety and depression, but not when it hit me, it was like,

I could not see the forest for the trees. I was crying all the time. My partner didn't understand it, which made me think, like, I kept accusing him of gaslighting me. I was like, no, like you, it was just, it was so bad. We were screaming. I, my son at the time, he just had this, like, super normal, like regurgitation thing, but so you couldn't lay him down after he ate or it would come out of his nose and he couldn't open his mouth. It's good time. that only like just increased my thoughts that he was going to die, whether I was going to kill him or he was going to die. And it took a long time for my partner was at one point was like,

we can't go on like this. You need to see the psychiatrist and you need to have a conversation. And kudos to him because I think for anybody who's pregnant or thinking about getting pregnant is you need to make sure that your partner or your folks around you are prepared and know what to look for. Absolutely. And feel empowered to get you the support. that you need. Because if it were not for that, I mean, it could have gone on. I could still be

suffering. I still have intrusive thoughts, but they're not to the level that they were. But on the physical side, I actually, like, just maybe a few months ago, did I start even wanting to run a long distance race? Did I even, it was a lot of coming to terms with the fact that, like, but I am a runner. Like, people know me as that person. But, you know, it's okay, right? Like, well, it's like, welcome to being a woman where you get to be reinvented by a human growing inside of you. And like it's a little bit also feels very, very out of control. I mean, yeah, I get it. I mean, I didn't do a postdoc because I stayed home with children.

So like, yeah, I get it. Like, oh, my life completely changed. Oh, I need to. I want to be with this child. So that career. Okay. I can put that over here. Yeah, that's the other thing.

Like I never, like, so I didn't have that immediate feeling like, oh my God, I like love this little person so much because I was. traumatized. Oh, I didn't love him at first. I mean, I loved him, but he was like, it's like, if I were a cow, I wouldn't want to look at the milking machine. Like that's like, don't come near me with those lips. Right, right. But now I'm like, to your point, like, so also it's like a COVID-19 world. So I am, I'm working from home, but he's around and I just, I want to be around him all the time. And so you just find yourself as a woman or as a primary caregiver with these like impossible

decisions that you have to make. And that's me saying that it's somebody with a lot of privilege and a lot of resources. So you just think about like how this is magnified for folks who are really bearing the brunt of a poorly, poorly, poorly managed response to the COVID-19. And of course, all the generational trauma before that. Yeah. And just like a health care system that doesn't seem to really be geared towards helping families do well, just in some ways. I'd like to talk about running while black. And I thought of it, you know, it wasn't the first thing I thought of when I reached out to you.

But I do think we should talk about it. It's not like I necessarily have anything in particular to ask, you know, for those of us who've, you know, either been raised or have had our eyes wide open, we are not shocked as if we're learning for the first time that systemic racism and the patriarchy combined have made a toxic situation for the people who built this country and continued to build this country. But I think it's so interesting that in particular, running has been brought to our attention. So speak a little bit to running while black, because I feel like, you know, it's the intersection of a lot of what you talk about. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, when you think about it,

like going for a run is really a negotiation of public space, right? And if you think, particularly for black people, if you think about us in public space, we have never been allowed to move freely since we were brought to this country against our will, right? Then you think about, so I'm talking about slavery there. If you think about Jim Crow laws, if you think about rules around sundown towns, if you think about miscegenation laws. So we have not been able to travel freely. We have not been able to marry who we want. We have not been able to access education or health care. And so when think about historically the impact of that, there's a bit of there's like a cultural trauma piece where you know, and it's not like the story of Emmett Till is just like always on my mind,

but when another black person is killed, there's like a connection there, right? There's this trauma of like this has happened before and then there's the additional trauma of and they're going to get away with it, right? So then there's moving through public space when, and just to set the record straight if it's not clear already, running brings me so much joy, so much freedom. It's something that I love doing. I love being outside, period. But there's also this recognition that I am navigating public space in a world that either sees me as dangerous, as potentially criminal, as questioning your motives. Questioning my motives. Sometimes it's hyper-sexualized and that I'm something that can be like taken and used for other purposes, right? And so

those are very real thoughts that go into, what am I going to wear today? Right. So I'm not going to wear, many times I avoid wearing bright colors if I'm by myself. It could be 100 degrees and I will rarely wear just a sports bra and shorts. When I see police, it's this, you know, it's this negotiation of like make sure you look friendly and you say hello to them. You make yourself known because you don't want, you just want to get it out of the way. You just want to make sure that you can't be accused of something. You just like got to check that box, right? Exactly.

And with all that, even with all that, there's still just the embedded racism, the systemic racism that you could have done everything quote unquote right. And you still find yourself getting shot, right? And so that's what it is, you know, it's running while black is like, it's sort of like, it's like you have this double consciousness, right? to reference W.B. Du Bois, but you have this double consciousness of being black in the United States and it's a double consciousness of, I love this thing, I'm going to run no matter what,

but also what are, let me make sure I do the best that I can and I try to make myself, like, surveil the area. And all of this, of course, really, really came to a head during, over the last year, during the pandemic and seeing just the outrageous killings of Brianna Taylor, Amad Arbery.

And Amad Arbery, that's actually where the specific Running Well Black kind of conversation started. Coming together. Right, and saying I'm going to I think it was 2.32 miles. 2.23 miles. So he was shot and killed on February 23rd in Brunswick, Georgia. Did not make a splash

in national news. There was a piece in the New York Times. And I'm speaking now for the running industry. And the running industry did not see this as a story worth mentioning. It's not that if this were a white woman who had gotten killed while running, it definitely would have generated the attention because at the same time there had been this runner safety awareness movement that was the result of two or three women who were killed during the run and one in Staten Island,

you know, like really devastating. I'm not trying to compare for sure tragedy here. But just that white women getting killed by running or being, feeling unsafe while running, that generated magazine covers and countless workshops. And then a black man shot while running seemingly goes unnoticed. And so my reaction, this was now, Corey, was about nine months. And I was just like boiling over that the industry and the space that I love does not even see a story about a person like me as worthwhile to talk about. And I actually, I penned this op-ed then and so much has happened since then, a lot of good intentions that we still have to see how they actually met out. But it was an awakening for certain white folks who don't believe black and brown people.

when we talk, right? Like the same white folks who were shocked on January 6th, it's like, come on, white supremacy lives here. So it was awakening for some. It was a call to action for others. And, you know, and now we see the increase in crimes against Asian, Americans, and Pacific Islanders. Like, it's, we have for too long denied the real truth of white supremacy, right? Like, for too long, every president says, this is un-American. Like, no, this is the most American thing there is. And so that's what running while black means to me. It's this double consciousness. It's this, but it doesn't have to be that way.

And I do believe that the running industry has a wealth of power and resources and voice to start to reimagine another world. I love that. Thank you so much. I mean, that's so eloquent. Also, you're working on a book. Yes. And it's got this hilarious title. The unbearable whiteness of running.

I love it. Instead of the unbearable lightness of being that Milan can err, like, eh. So what is this? And, you know, as someone who's written books with little ones around, it is not easy to write a book with a small person. But tell us about the book and sort of like what you are excited to communicate and I'm very excited to read it. Yes, thank you.

So it is, it is so hard. But the idea is, it is a mix of my personal narrative. So my personal story of coming to running and how running saved my life. And then also, so that's one narrative thread. And the other thread is about the history of running since the second running boom, the 1970s. And the, first of all, that idea in and of itself erases the history of the New York Pioneer Club and other integrated clubs that were happening. But so the second running, or excuse me, the first running boom. and how that boom was born in Lilly White, Oregon, right?

In a place where black people could not even own property until much later, in a place where all of the people who were experiencing this free movement were white folks. And so you see how long distance running was really intentionally created to center white male middle class experiences. And talking about how you see that in terms of representation. you see that in terms of allocation of resources. And so then what does that mean when a black man like Ahmad Arbery is going out for a run? And that's sort of where the two narratives meet. So work in progress, the manuscript is due in October and then it will be out October of 2020.

You're an anthropologist of sorts. Yeah, yeah. Do you feel like that? Anthropologists, sociologists, for sure. What did your dad do? My dad was an emergency room physician. Wow. Yeah.

Oh, you had, there was a lot of emotional content for you in your home. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. And for him, it was really special. Like he saw himself connected to his grandmother who was worked with spices and she was a medicine woman, right? And so for him, it was like he was a healer. But yeah, it's very much, you said it so well earlier.

It's very much like I really am coming together of so many different things. Medicine woman. We could talk forever about that. We'll have you back on. Jonathan and I have a strong interest in Shaman's. All right. Next, next episode. Next episode.

Thank you so much for your time. Thank you for working around our schedule with that of your little one. No, I so appreciate it. It's really just so incredible to speak to you because you, you know, you're able to talk about things in a way that I can't. Because, like, when I say things about, like, feminism, people are like, like, ew, but like when you say it, it's like, oh, yes, that makes it because you're academically trained that way. And so we leave that work to you. Thank you so much for all of the intersectionality that you speak about and all of the things that you are and really, really incredible to talk to you.

Thank you so much. This was, this has made my week. You know, that's a woman who's lived a lot of life, meaning, you know, like, her college experience sounds, well, her childhood sounds off the charts fascinating, just with those two parents and all that history and, like, it's so interesting. But then, like, her college experience and then, like, two masters, P.S. Two master's degrees.

I think if you get two masters, you get a PhD. That's the way it works. Hey, hey, no, but just, like, that's a person who's, like, she's taken every bit of life. I mean, also, she seems like fun. Like when people meet me, they're like, yeah, you seem like the kind of person who has a doctorate in neuroscience and also as a lactation educator counselor and teaches Hebrew and piano. But when I meet her, when I see her, I'm like, she seems like so much fun. Also, she's like this super academic.

Why don't you trade the Hebrew and piano to do something more social justice oriented? I do social justice things. I want to be like Allison. I want to be like her. She does so many things. I don't want to start running again. again. Ask my am anything.

Yeah. Harley G. asks, I want to know why postpartum can manifest as anger. I still feel guilt for my actions

reactions from those dark few months even though my son is now a thriving toddler. Thanks. Great question, Harley.

So postpartum depression first should be distinguished from what we call the baby blues. Which honestly is just a youth for mild depression. Baby blues is things like, here, I'm going to list you the symptoms of

baby blues, mood swings, anxiety, sadness, irritability, feeling overwhelmed, crying, reduced concentration, appetite problems, trouble sleeping. So essentially all the things that happen when a baby's born. And the fact is men experience a lot of these things as well, but for women, this can last a few days to a week or two for people like me who had trouble breastfeeding both times, because let's just keep it real. This can persist. Postpartum depression is often mistaken for baby blues, but what happens is these symptoms will develop the first few weeks after giving birth. Sometimes people start feeling them during pregnancy. They also may not even present to like a year after birth. So there's a lot and it's a lot of hormones. I'm just going to say it.

Postpartum depression specifically is depressed mood, severe mood swings. So mood swings, baby blues. Severe mood swings, postpartum depression. So that's, That's sort of talking about the levels that we talk about here. Excessive crying. What's excessive? Well, it depends on who your partner is. Some men will say any crying is excessive, but I think you know what I mean. There's a certain amount of crying that becomes what's diagnostically called excessive.

Difficulty bonding with your baby. Like feeling angry towards your baby, feeling lack of emotion towards your baby. So negative emotions or even kind of like neutral emotions, which is not to say that the only way to feel towards your baby is happy. But there's a lot of complexity here. And then a lot of other features of depression, like either eating too much, not eating enough, sleeping too much, not sleeping at all. And you barely sleep anyway with a new baby. But fear that you're not a good mother, intense irritability and anger, diminished ability to think

clearly to concentrate to make decisions, anxiety, panic attacks, thoughts of harming yourself or your baby, and obviously recurrent thoughts of death or suicide. So those are the things that we talk about. We talk about postpartum depression. And that irritability, that anger is simply one of the expressions of a very, challenging hormonal system that is exacerbated by, you know, one of the greatest stressors of your life, which is becoming a parent or having a child, even if you've already had one child and didn't have postpartum, you may have it with subsequent children. The ability to work through

with a licensed professional, what some of that guilt is, and where it can be placed to make sense is really helpful. You know, I didn't do, in many ways, my strongest parenting, you know, when my children were young. I really didn't. It honestly continued, you know, for years. And I'm not saying I had postpartum depression. I mean, I was just depressed as my baseline. Yes, children are resilient. Yes, as we understand ourselves better, we become better able not only to deal with challenges, but to be able to understand them and place them in a proper context. I would suggest if you're feeling kind of persistent guilt or thoughts about that in particular, it's time to get help.

And that doesn't mean you're going to be in therapy forever. That doesn't mean you have to take medication. I don't know your story. And you necessarily may not either. So I would encourage you to get help. And thanks for your question. Thanks to everyone who has been submitting a question at biolikbreakdown.com. If you have a question and want to ask Miami anything, you can do so.

at Bialik breakdown.com. That's B-I-A-L-I-K. Breakdown.com. And don't forget to please subscribe to this podcast. Give us a five-star review and recommend it to a friend. It helps us make more and go to the YouTube channel. Click the little bell notifications to get informed when there are new episodes. And thank you so much for everyone who has been supporting us. And I guess that's it. Thank you, Allison. That was really, really interesting talking to her. She's a really she's fierce. She's a really fierce

woman and I'm really grateful that she came on to talk to us. So from our breakdown to the one we hope you never have, we'll see you next time. It's my and Bialyx breakdown. She's going to break it down for you. She's got a neuroscience PhD or two. One fiction.

And now she's going to break down.