Mayim Bialik's Breakdown - Anthony Green: If You’re Alive and Listening, There’s Hope

Episode Date: August 24, 2021

Anthony Green (lead singer of Circa Survive, Saosin, and The Sound of Animals Fighting) opens up about his struggles with addiction and living with bipolar disorder. He describes how his distorted self-image manifested into disordered eating and drug and alcohol abuse, and details his first stay in rehab and being misdiagnosed with schizophrenia. Mayim breaks down the clinical definition, types, and dual-diagnoses associated with bipolar disorder, and opens up about her own father’s struggle with the affliction. She and Anthony discuss the dopamine loop and how this can also apply to technology, and highlight the importance of tackling addiction one step at a time, having an outlet to communicate, and exercising patience with those who are struggling. Anthony explains his process for accepting his diagnoses and managing his stressors and triggers, and how he has been able to repurpose his mania to use as a hack for improving his creativity as an artist. National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 800-273-8255 // https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/ Anthony Green's new live album "Live at Studio 4": https://memorymusic.limitedrun.com/products/707405-anthony-green-live-at-studio-4?view=f15452 BialikBreakdown.com YouTube.com/mayimbialik Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I hope more than anything, if there's an echo of my existence in this world at all, it's to let somebody know that, yeah, you're here. We're both like this. And, you know, we can help each other, like, check this out. You know, like, it's to remind somebody that they're not alone in this. Hi, I'm Miami Amiolic and welcome to My Breakdown. This is the place where we break things down so that you don't have to. It's My Ambiolyx Breakdown.

She's going to break it down. you because you know she knows a thing or two. And now she's going to break down. It's going to be a good episode today. We also break things down so people can learn. And I'm also jumping my intro again. Here is my frustrating mess, Jonathan Cohen. Hi, my name.

Hi, everyone. And that's a deep cut. Do you know what that reference is? I don't. Do you know what else is a frustrating mess? Manic Depression. Oh. That is a Jimmy Hendricks quote.

And that relates to what we're going to be. talking about today. We have a guest today, and his name is Anthony Green. And Anthony Green is the lead singer of Circa Survive. Sayocin. I think I pronounced it, right? And the sound of animals fighting. He also has a solo career as a musician. He's released five full-length albums under his own name. And in 2020, he released his first collection of children's music. I love when grown-up musicians do things for children. And it's called Let's Start a Band, which is really cute. He is also collaborated with some pretty awesome artists, and he has four children, which I think is an amazing part of his bio. We're going to be welcoming Anthony in a minute.

But first, Jonathan, do you have anything you'd like to say before we get started? Should let people know that there's a new MBB Instagram page. That's exciting. So exciting. Pictures of Maim and I and the guests and extra clips go there. If you want to check it out, Bialik Breakdown, at Bialik breakdown. How do you spell Bialik? B, I, A, A, L, K, because people don't know.

Well, we spell it a lot. But yeah, people are probably going to be saying, why isn't it called mine and Biala's breakdown? It's too many words. So Jonathan just thought Bialik breakdown. And go to Instagram, follow us, and let us know what you think. And if you follow me, I appreciate that.

But this is different. This is following just podcast stuff. So it's like all mental health stuff, all what's happening on the podcast, me and Jonathan fun stuff. And yeah, my page is getting too convoluted. Because of me, not because of all you. Anyway, so we're going to be talking to Anthony Green.

Anthony Green came to us because his fan suggested that he'd come on the podcast and then he tweeted at us and that's how we're recruiting guests now. Whoever tweets at us gets to come on. Well, not exactly. But he likely is going to talk about a lot of things. We're going to talk about music and talk about substance abuse and a bit about his rehab experience. But he's also one of the only people that I know in our industry, meaning in the industry of being a public. person. He's one of the only people I know who talks about being diagnosed bipolar. A lot of our people who are following us on our new page have been messaging us and a lot of

requests have come in to cover bipolar and give more light. A lot of people, I guess their complaint or their frustration is that it's so misunderstood and there's so much stigma around it. So this is excellent for you to come and help us understand it better. Right. So let's talk a little bit about bipolar disorder. The reason I opened with that Jimmy Hendricks quote, manic depression is a frustrating mess. It was a song that Jimmy Hendricks wrote about manic depression. And it used to be called manic depression, but now it's not. Now it's called bipolar. It's called bipolar disorder. And there's a large scale study of, I think, 11 countries that has an overall prevalence of bipolar disorder, the kind of spectrum, at about 2%, with bipolar 1 being

about half of 1% and bipolar 2 being the other half. So what are the different kinds of bipolar disorders? It's a good question. So what do you think of when you think of bipolar disorder? Don't be mean. Big fluctuations of mood. Okay. Like polar being on the other sides of two things. Great. So that is absolutely true. People who are like up and down, that doesn't mean you're bipolar. People who have big emotions, that doesn't mean you're bipolar. What are the ways that we generally diagnose things. We talk about this with everything. Everyone's like, oh, I feel like this and then they throw some clinical diagnosis.

I think I'm manic depressive. No, just let's take it down a notch. What are the two ways that we generally, clinically how extreme it is? Very good. He listens. How long it's happened over time. So it has the situation continued. How long is it right? So the time course

and then also the severity, meaning how much impact does it have on your daily life, your weekly life, your monthly life? So, bipolar one is what a lot of people think about when they think about manic depression. And what that is, it is mania and depression. So you have to have both poles. And you have to have both poles in kind of a certain way, a certain duration of time. So bipolar one typically is manic episodes that last at least seven days or manic symptoms that are very, very severe, meaning need hospitalization. Describe mania for us. Mania is an elevation of mood that is persistent. It's not excitement. It's not excitement.

Mania involves things like racing thoughts, pressured speech, and typically something like maxing out credit cards, staying up all night, making inappropriate sexual advances towards people to the point that you are engaging in sexual behavior that is very, very, very. risky. And I don't want people to be like, I do risky things. Am I manic? No, it goes with all these other things when we talk about mania. And as someone who has experienced mania, that's right, folks, what it feels like is like a really bad time on speed, meaning your brain is operating faster than your mouth can keep up. And there's often a level of agitation because other people like they don't get it. Like they're not on the same wavelength as you. And the difference between mania and something like being on speed or having a drug experience where you're like, oh my God, I feel amazing and no one else gets it, is that this doesn't end. This can persist for

days and days. I have had experiences of getting very, very little sleep for many days in a row. It's not pleasant. So that's one pole of bipolar disorder. The other pole is depression. And usually there will be depression with what we call mixed features. It'll kind of fluctuate. I mean, it's a very, it's a storm, you know, it really feels like a chemical storm. So that's bipolar one. And silver lining playbook, silver linings, silver lining one plural. Anyway, that movie shows bipolar disorder. That's a thing. And often with mania, you'll get a lot of creativity, very little need for sleep, often very little need for food, and often a real proliferation of creative energy. Bipolar two is,

characterized by depression that is often worse, meaning more often leads to attempts at suicide. And the mania is, quote, better or less severe. We call that hypomania. So maybe you'll have people staying up, you know, many nights in a row with lack of, you know, sleep and things like that, but they won't max out credit cards or they won't, you know, have indiscriminate, dangerous, sexual activity with people, which many people would just define as dating these days. But I'm here all week. Okay, maybe too soon. So that's bipolar one. That's bipolar two. There's also something called cyclothymia, which kind of means that, like, you have some of these symptoms. They're not severe enough to, like, merit. What if you have, like, you go up for, like, a few days, but then you don't have the

horrible depression. Or what if you only have the horrible depression, but you don't go up? Okay. Great question. So if you're depressed and you're experiencing that kind of depression, you may just have some, something on the depression spectrum. And if you're just having the mania, you may only have something on the mania spectrum. In addition, people who are bipolar often self-medicate, pot, very common, alcohol, very common. So those are just, that's a basic little bit of structure to bipolar disorder. I'm going to let our guest see what level of comfort he has with describing bipolar disorder. My father, of blessed memory, was bipolar.

I don't explicitly tremendously talk about it a lot because there are people who loved my father, who are in my family who don't believe in that diagnosis. They just, they don't. Not everybody has to. But I do have a tremendous amount of experience with mania, with depression. And I have experienced both mania and depression. There was a time in my life when that diagnosis really seemed to suit me. And then my mania really kind of dissipated and went other places and other directions.

And I'm happy to talk more about that maybe in another episode, how I've learned to manage both my mania and my depression. Did you identify any specific triggers that were going on in your life that you could sort of correlate with that level of experience that you had? Almost every time that I had an episode, it was related to a romantic disappointment. And that's also not uncommon and very, very troubling, because I don't believe that it means that people who are bipolar can't have, you know, relationships. And there's a lot of stigma around people who are bipolar. And there's this notion like, oh, it's like, oh, being depressed is like, oh, everybody. everybody's a little depressed. Like everybody's a little anxious, but like bipolar, that's crazy.

And I really try not to use that word. And I try and teach my children and other people, no one really finds it interesting or appreciates how fastidious I am about it. But I don't like when people call people crazy like that. And were those episodes depressive episodes or were they manic episodes or both? Did they have both? Yeah, both. It's really bad because when you have mania like that, coming down is very hard, which is why a lot of people will use drugs to even it out. that's where I was going was why is it that so many people who have these fluctuations, these broad fluctuations, because we all have fluctuations, end up self-medicating.

And it sounds like it is in order to try and stabilize it. This is all a spectrum, which is why it's like, oh, well, sometimes I might seem like I fit this diagnosis or like, what is that? And can you outgrow that diagnosis? And why couldn't my dad? Whatever. No, there's, A, it's a spectrum. B, people who are bipolar and in particular mania makes you really not want to take the medication

they want you to take. Because when you feel good, you feel really good. And you feel like, I've got this. Like, it's part of the system. It's like part of that disorder is that it tricks you into believing you've got this. So medication noncompliance, very, very difficult in bipolar disorder in particular. And you don't have any side effects of the medication, which some people do have side effect.

And the medications in the old days for bipolar disorder were very, very heavy, very strong. Like, you couldn't get pregnant on them. Like, very, they were teratogenic. That's the word for medication you can't get pregnant on. Anyway, I'd really love to welcome Anthony and have him help us tackle all of these things and more. Miami-Bialx breakdown is supported by superpower. We all know the feeling of leaving a doctor's office and kind of feeling like we didn't get anything out of the experience that was useful. Maybe they're like, you're fine.

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$199 for the full experience, which is much more affordable than anything else out there. Make this the year you stop guessing about your health with superpower. Superpower. Not only did Superpower reduce their price to just $199, but for a limited time, our listeners get an additional $20 off with the code break. Head to superpower.com. Use the code break at checkout for $20 off your membership. And after you sign up, they'll ask how you heard about them. Make sure to mention Miami-Biolics Breakdown to help support the show. We really appreciate you coming on and talking to us. pleasure to have you here. I would like to note that you have very pretty eyes. Thank you. And the reason I mentioned is, because I did a little bit of a dive, you have some very,

very photogenic children. And they have your eyes. Like, it's a thing. Whatever genes you have, they run very strong because your children also all look alike and a little bit like you cloned yourself. They all look so similar. They have that thing, you know, where you sometimes see it. in a family. Well, it's adorable. And also, you have the kids that I thought I'd have if I was cool out. Because, like, they're always, like, skateboarding. And, like, they've got, like, groovy long hair.

And they wear, like, long shirt. They all wear vans. And, like, they're cool. They're, like, cool people. Like, I, like, I manufactured my own friends. That's what I did, but mine are nerds. I'm so lucky in that way where, um, they're just all people. I wanted, would want to hang with. You know, people will sometimes say, like, what'd you do?

It's like, we didn't really do anything. We sort of let them, you know, we did force them to do what we wanted to do, you know, right out the gate. And I think that that just made them, you know, be like, all right, I got to make, got to be cool here. Completely not what we're supposed to speak about with Anthony Green. This is a parenting podcast. This is not a parenting podcast. So we're very excited to speak to you because you've been vocal about two things that we do talk about. One is sobriety and I've been very open about my participation in 12-step programs and many of our guests, you know, do kind of talk about that stuff with me and with us. But the other thing is you've, you've spoken about bipolar disorder. And this is something that people ask us about a lot. Not a lot of

people like to talk about it. And as I talked about in the introduction to this episode, my father of blessed memory was bipolar. I've had years and years mostly of deprecognito. I've had years, mostly of depression but also mania, which is pretty well controlled. I'm very familiar with a lot of the ins and outs, as it were, of bipolar disorder. And my father was not diagnosed for almost his entire life and almost my entire life because there weren't names for things and it was not a thing. And anyway, so we're really eager and excited to talk to you. And also you're a super awesome musician and you do a very beloved thing, you made an album of kids' music, which I think is really awesome when like cool grownups do that. I'm a they might be Giants fan. And so obviously that's like

a big part of a lot of people are like, I know their kids album. And it's like, well, there was years before that. But anyway, maybe you want to tell us a little bit about sort of what young Anthony was like. What was your, what kind of spirit were you as a child? So I was the youngest in my family and there was a considerable difference between the ages, like between me and my closest sibling. So they sort of had their little family click all figured out, and I came in, you know, a decade or so later as the youngest, and I think it was kind of a surprise for everybody.

And I had a really good childhood. My parents, you know, did their absolute best. Growing up in the suburbs, not really feeling ever, like I belonged, you know, not even necessarily anywhere, but even in my own family, you know, and not to put anybody on the hot seat. It wasn't, this is not anyone's fault here, you know, a lot of circumstance. But I, I just never felt like I could belong anywhere. I felt like safe to be myself. I was different. My brother's all great at sports, like just awesome at sports. And I'm sort of different in that way. I think I had more energy.

in like a psychotic way that my parents weren't used to. And they were also over-parenting at that point. I'm sorry, just to clarify, do you mean they were, like, done with it or they were parenting too much over-parenting? No, they were done with it. That's what I should clarify. They had, you know, I think they kind of figured they were done having kids. And then I showed up.

There was four boys. Oh. And there's like 10 years difference between me and my closest brother. Oh, surprise. Yes. Yeah. And I was just, I was a lot different from them. and they were the greatest brothers.

You know, they looked out for me and they were all so different. But when they were running off doing things, I was still sort of the kid at home, not, you know, to get into the crazy dynamics of my family, but it just was a little bit difficult. My parents had stuff going on in their lives that I think made it difficult to.

And I was, you know, I had asthma when I was a kid. I was always sick. And then evolved from there to like, okay, and he's not playing sports. I liked music and poetry. I started doing drugs really early on, like really early on, like as soon as I discovered alcohol, I was like, oh my God. And I was a kid.

Like, I was like, you know, taking empties of like the parents and the kids, you know, and drinking the stuff that was in the house and sort of like mimicking what I saw on TV. I was also a large, I was a large way. I had asthma and I was on pregnancy. zone a lot when I was a kid for different infections. And from what I understand about that now, is like, I got my eating, both for to feel good about it, like just to feel good, you know, my mom's Italian.

So I was like, oh, you're getting picked on in school. Like, we have some pizza, you know, like that sort of developed early on. So, like, I had, I had an eating disorder, like, before I even started messing with drugs, even, like, I remember being a big kid and wanting to lose weight and learning about eating disorders. at school and being like, oh, I could lose weight doing that. Like, that's how my brain worked. And my image of myself was really, really distorted. Like, and I didn't really have anyone to talk to about it.

So it manifested itself in behavior, like eating disorder, you know, drug abuse, you know, drinking really young. And I was a fun kid. Like, I wasn't like some dark. You sound like a hoot to me. You know, that stuff sucks. And, you know, I look back on my. my childhood and just my early adolescence from what I can remember. And I was doing the best to just want to fit in. I wanted to fit in so bad, like have friends, have people that I felt like a part of

like the gang with them, you know? And I just, I never, I didn't find that anywhere. And I can remember kind of finding it in like the kind of drug culture, you know, of a high school, you know, where like, I thought I was drawn to it, you know, it was sort of I liked these, uh, these, these musicians and poets that are sort of glorified, getting drunk and doing things. So, and not really having any guidance. I just, I took the slip and slide journey right into the most cliche stuff you could do. And I was lucky. I had a lot of support.

Like, I had all the resources that anybody could dream of having, like, my parents, you know, when I was at some point, I was a freshman in college and I said, I needed to get help. That was the first time we'd ever really gotten on the journey of, of, sobriety. Long story short, like I came home one night and just was out of my mind. And they were like, you know, you're grounded, you're this, you're that. And I was like, that's great. I'm going to kill myself. So you can ground me. And they, I remember the look on their face in their kitchen, just like, what the fuck are we going to do? You know, and my oldest brother, I think they got him on the phone. And I think all my brothers were like, this is what you do. And I went to rehab.

and that was my first stay at rehab. And that was the beginning of really learning about substance abuse, mental health, learning what was going on with me and how I can identify it, how I could start to function in the world, be like who I wanted to be and not dress it up, you know, and really start to grow. Some people went to college, I went to rehab. That's how it went.

I'm really curious about that first experience. at that age, now all of a sudden you're getting a mirror put up to you and people are saying, wait a second, there's another way to live. I don't think I was quite ready for all of it. You know, I might have retained, you know, 20% of the hardcore knowledge that you would come out of that. But I remember getting out of rehab and having a conversation with my dad where he was like, you know, this doesn't mean you never have to drink again.

Even when I went in, I went in because I got caught and I was being destructive. But I wasn't yet at the point where I had become like physically addicted where like I needed it, you know, or I was going through an intense withdrawal or I, you know, I could have caught myself right then and there. You said some really interesting things. You know, a lot happens before you get caught, right? Or before you go to rehab or before, you know. and, you know, what you described is sort of being slash feeling different, you know, sometimes we are different and we don't feel different and sometimes we feel different and we're not different.

But you did. You had a lot of, you know, kind of differences and we're all the product of whatever we grew up in and around, you know, and so, you know, you described that. But I think that the food is actually very interesting to me, you know, that you noticed a pattern with food because as we talk about here, you know, that. that loop, that circuit, that dopamine need, that reward system, like, it is, it is primed in your brain. It's not primed from the drug or the food. Like, it's not, it's in here, you know?

And for some people, it's gambling and for some people it's sex. Like, we are primed for pleasure and pursuit, you know? Even just this, like the hit you get when like, oh, I'm going to see if someone said something nice about a comment. You know, for some brains, it doesn't get satisfied, you know, and we, will, we will keep pushing, keep looking, keep finding. And what you described, I'm always very interested because I don't have the spiritual allergy to alcohol, meaning I can drink. Yeah. I know what it feels like to feel like a better version of myself when I've had a drink and a half. And I totally get, like, I've read the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous. Like, I get it.

There but for the grace of God, go I, meaning that's not my thing, but it really pains me, you know, to think about what that must be like to feel that that's the solution, you know, that that's the way to be you is that you can't do it sober, you know? And it's like, you know, it's like we say, the problem's not alcohol. The problem is sobriety. The drinking's not the problem. It's the thing that makes you think that the only way to exist is to drink that is the problem. So I'm curious if you can maybe say a little bit more, I mean, especially when you're a teenager and everything's insane anyway. I didn't get that. I didn't really get that. Okay. The big problem here is like in how I'm processing my stressors, what I'm doing with the things that are making me ashamed or embarrassed.

Right. You know, what I'm doing with the things that I don't like about myself and how I'm dealing with that. And, you know, honestly, what you said, when I start thinking like about education, like, if we made that like a mandatory thing where we like helped kids walk through, like, identity, why they like the things they like. like what it means to them, you know, and what it, you know, like give the sense of like being in this world is like not just to a means to an end to like get, you know, it's not to get the good grade. It's really to like connect with people and to have good friendships. Like imagine if that was a thing that was like at the forefront, just like math and just like reading like, hey, making true connections, understanding yourself. Like, feel like I would have been way less fucked up.

That kind of leads to my next question because, you know, there's a lot of overlap with what's called dual diagnosis, people who, you know, live with mental health challenges and also have addiction issues. And what I was explaining, you know, in the introduction, I was talking about how, especially with bipolar disorder, it is very, very common to have dual diagnosis. It really bugs me, and I don't know if you've listened to our podcast, it really bugs me when people use terms incorrectly, meaning when people are like, I'm, I don't know. I like my shoes, neat. I'm OCD. It's like, no. I'm aware. I get depressed sometimes.

I'm bipolar. No. So what I was talking about, and I don't know if you can speak to this, I'm wondering if you were aware of kind of notions of mood because it's so normal when you're a teenager to be moody. And testosterone in particular, which tends to be the hormone of people who are assigned male at birth, it can have a lot of aggression to it. It can have a lot of complexity in those teenage years and girls have their own. sorry, assigned females at birth have their own as well. But could you in any way tell differences in mood that felt better when you were drunk or high? Or was it kind of just like, this is how I roll, this is how I party, and then one day someone said, we think you have a mood disorder?

It was more or less that I never really had a problem being social. I feel like I was like, because I was around my older brothers growing up, like I could. could kind of ham it up a little bit. But it was kind of, I could put on an act a little bit. And I was always kind of trying to fight for attention. When I would drink, I noticed that I would just feel at ease. And I can't necessarily say it was like an at ease to help me be social. But I think it, you know, having like a hardcore issue with myself, be it like because of how I look or because of how I feel about myself or all those things, when that tension is is tweaked a little bit, you know, that and it's, and you're hiding it from everybody. You know, you're hiding that, that fear and that,

that shame and that anxiety from everybody. So when you feel it tweaked a little bit, whether it's, you know, whatever finds you, whether it's booze or shopping or even just like, you know, whatever, then I feel like I just, I started going toward it, you know, whatever. And, and I, I also, I had a lot of people that I looked up to that I feel like, you know, were drinkers, like I would, you know, or, you know, drug addicts, like musicians where you think like, oh, and you want their story to be the story of like, hey, don't do this shit. But more often than not, I feel like at least in our time growing up, you still had this sense of like, oh man, there's this like mystery.

It was a very melancholic. Jean Morrison was this. And it's like, yo, he was actually pretty horrible to the people around him and abusive. And, you know, if you really want to be a great poet like that, a great human being like that, it's not the going to get wasted, drunk, and pushing excess and doing that shit. And it's not the way to do it. It's funny because I, like a lot of young people who went to Jewish camp, we used to sing James Taylor songs. You know, like, you got a friend, like, whatever.

You know, I've seen fire. I can sing them all. And the thing that I most remember about James Taylor, besides, like, you know, being at, you know, Jewish camp and singing those songs, was that whenever music of his would come on the radio, my mother would say, such a shame he was a junkie. Yeah.

And it's funny because at the time, you know, I was a very little kid and I was like, I didn't even know what a junkie meant. Like at that time, but I remember it was like, it was ingrained in me. Like, it doesn't matter how pretty your voice is. You know, like he had trouble. And it wasn't like she was saying he's a bad person.

It was just like, you know, and I remember that about a lot of musicians. you know, and I remember, you know, I mean, Hendricks and Jim Morris, like all these names and Janice Joplin. It was like, and it, it has continued. And then, you know, my era is Kurt Cobain. It was devastating, you know. It's funny because I don't want my kids to feel that those people were not suffering because that really is what I think was missing from the way my mother talked about it, you know. But it's a salient and difficult point that many of the people, I think you're maybe younger than me, but many of the people we grew up living. listening to, though, many had tremendous problems, and part of that was the culture of the 80s and the culture of the 90s. I did want to ask, you were originally misdiagnosed, correct?

When did that happen? Was that the first time you went to rehab? So, no. So this was, I had the band, we had, my, my wife and I had gone through a miscarriage, or two miscarriages. And I was self-medicating all up and down the board. I had been in rehab at least twice at that point. But I went to the crisis center in Doylestown and ended up speaking with somebody there. And I was so fucked up. What were you on?

Just because I think it's helpful. I'm not trying to... I was taking... At the time, I was taking OxyContin. Okay. I was taking probably Perkissette. Whatever opiate I could get my hand on. It was also...

Okay, got it. Clawnipin or Xanax. I don't remember. exactly, but it was those, so much marijuana. Sorry, it's just funny the way you said it's so much. Well, because I think it's important to make a distinction because I don't think like, in and of itself, marijuana is a harmful thing. I think anything, if you were to wake up in the morning and drink coffee all day

long, I would be worried about you. Same thing as marijuana, you know, and I think it can be overdone and can really, it can, in it, by itself could make somebody seem like they're totally psychotic and Well, it is a, yeah, that's actually the class of drug. I went in, I was expressing what was going on with me. And I think with that information, they looked at me and they were thought, you know, you're hearing voices telling you to do things outside yourself, you know. Okay, so important, important sidebar.

You can hallucinate from marijuana alone. It is a thing. Auditory hallucinations. Some people do have visual hallucinations, but it is a class of drug that you can have hallucinations. someone throughout the word schizophrenia, which is a very, I will say it's very different from being bipolar. However, here's a fun thing about people who are bipolar. You can have delusions of grandeur and you can have a completely psychotic perception on the universe as part, you know, of your bipolar diagnosis that can look psychotic in the sense that you might actually get a schizophrenia diagnosis. So it's a much more nuanced diagnosis, you know, process that needs to go on, obviously, than what you experienced.

When were you given kind of that label of bipolar? So it was a little bit after that. And when I had completely rejected the idea that I was, I decided that they were wrong. And I had other people that were like, I don't know if that's really the case. And I had seen a few therapists. And at some point I met this therapist from my town. and they really helped me wrestle with accepting that I was bipolar. I felt it in just learning about it and talking to other people that I had the diagnosis.

And there was also, I hadn't gone through long periods of time where I wasn't, you know, on some kind of substance. So I was like, checking just to make sure. And it really just, it was relieving in the way where I was like, okay, now I, I'm, I feel like there's a criteria and a whole list of tools and a whole bunch of things we can do. But I felt a tremendous shame about it. Yes. And I was terrified of it. I felt like to most of the people in my life that I cared about and that were important in my life that it made me seem crazy.

Even now with people in my life, you know, let's say I'm hurt by something. And I want to communicate like, hey, this is hurtful. me for me and I had a experience where this is my feeling about it. Sometimes there are people that will be like, well, you know, you have this problem. Oh, God. So it's possible that you're making this out to be something that or just they use that. It's used as a weapon against you. Yeah. And so that was something that I was so scared about. And now, even now in my life, I still have a fear about it and it still happens once in a while with people I love. I love. And that I need in my life and that I'm, you know, I'm, I function with all the time.

As someone who has experienced mania, I'm your friend in this. Was your mania what's classified as hypomania or did you have extreme mania? Were you the kind of person that, I don't want to say act it out because that feels like the wrong way to say it. What does your mania look like as much as you'd like to share? Does it involve doing things that you really, really shouldn't do that are possibly illegal and get you into financial, personal and sexual trouble? There's a little piece of that in there. Okay. But not, not as much as you'd think. My mania can can look like workaholism. Okay. So that could be more like the hypomania, which is more of the bipolar too. But one of the things that I find frustrating, and I actually find it much easier to, I don't want to

say control my mania, but I can identify my mania quicker and I have tools that work better to help me move through it. Whereas the depression is, it's like it is a, it is a, much, much more difficult slog. But for Mania, I'm curious, you know, a lot of times I'll feel excitement and I sometimes wonder, well, have they taught me that I don't even know what excitement is? Is this not allowed? Can't I just be in a good mood? So what's your experience with Mania?

I just take it. I take it. And I remember it's dangerous. It is dangerous when you get into that cycle of like something feels so good or like, oh my God, this is the best song I've ever written. I've learned how to identify healthy, work-related. This is going to be productive. And I can keep that in check, too, where I'm like, hey, as much as I'm excited about this,

I need to stay fluid in the sense that if somebody has a better idea, if I can't make it here on time, or if this needs to change, it can change. I also can get like, all right, I'm going to do this project. I'm going to start an album. It's going to be this. It can be very grandiose. but my mania, it kind of hides a little bit. And sometimes, like in a way where because of my job

and because I love to work so much, it can just sneak in there. And I can be overworking and overdoing it and making too much and not spending enough time. And it's hard to get off that track because I end up feeling like, well, this is my job. And this is what I have to do. I love music when I get so wrapped up in it.

and I get so wrapped up in the different things about it. And it can sneak up on me. So knowing that, I can look at this, be like, is this healthy for me? Create some kind of boundaries, you know. And if I'm struggling where I'm like, all right, I'm going home and I'm going to put everybody to bed and I'm going to hang out and I'm going to be with them and I can't, then I can also deal with that where I'm having a hard time decompressing. I'm telling you, having people know and having the ability to talk about it. it really helps so much, aside from medication therapy, but just having this awareness of it that I didn't have growing up that our kids are going to have.

You know, so when they're like, we can talk about it, we can write about it, we can do what we need to do in order to get on with our life and make sure that we're making the healthy decision, you know, because on the flip side of it, and honestly, sometimes it's a spiral going down to the opposite end, and sometimes for me, I just flip. something happens. I hear something. I feel something. I'm, you know, I hate using the word triggered, but like something. And I can hallucinate, you know, that I, I can get into, you know, a dark place where you just, you feel like the, the wanting to get away from the problem and wanting to escape the pain that you're feeling like collides with, like, this hallucination

that everyone in your life would be better off without you. Yeah. There's so much conversation, you know, even about sort of like, you know, even like when people colloquially are like, oh my God, I wanted to kill myself. And like I'm even persnickety because like I hate. I hate when people, you know, use that expression. And also we have a, we have a suicide epidemic. You know, the notion of depression, a lot of people have more access to it because I think, you know, when we experience grief or, like, you know, when we experience grief or, like, you know, loss or when our parents get divorced or, you know, things or when we get divorced, you know, those are times that we can have access to depression, you know. And so a lot of people really don't understand mania because like they've never experienced that, right? But depression they think they get. But in some ways, I feel like that's actually worse because people think they get all kinds of depression because they've been sad, you know. And the kind of depression that, you know, that people who are bipolar experience and that people who have major depressive disorder experience,

It's a very, it's a different classification. Yes. And it's often based on its persistence. It's based on how much it impacts your life. And I think one of the other things is like, you know, sometimes people will be like, my life is amazing and I have a great partner and I love all my friends and I love my dog. I'm just so depressed. Right.

When you are depressed, there's not like, like, and I don't mean to be like, you don't get to say you're depressed, but I'm just that jerk right now. I love that you're saying that because I feel this so. often, but then I also have this like this guilt, like about feeling that, like this disenfranchised guilt. That's something important that when my depression was the worst, it was in the absence of, of quote, anything being objectively problematic or wrong, meaning I didn't need a crisis to, to feel like maybe this is not what God intended for me, i.e. to be alive, you know? And that's a very, It is the darkest place.

It is. And it is the darkest corner of the darkest part of your brain and your soul when you are in that space. And, you know, that is often when we like to point out to people, sometimes you need medication to not be in that space. So you can look back at that space and say, oh, what are the things I can do so that I don't get there again? And a lot of people are afraid of medication. And I totally feel like that's legitimate because there's a lot of scary things about medication. it's over-prescribed. We have a society that just wants to, like, fix it.

And, like, doctors are great. There's so many great doctors, but there's also doctors that don't give a shit. It's like there's so much. There's so much. It's very difficult. And we don't have patience with one another, too. Like, it's like, I don't know. It's very difficult.

Yeah. So, I, first of all, I think you're one of the bravest people that we've spoken to, hands down. I can't accept that. I won't accept that, honestly, because I've had it's, I've had. I've had it easy. I've had it easy. No, no, no. Okay.

Hold on. Hold on one second. I had it so easy. My family had money. You know, they had money from their family. You know, like when I needed help, even though my parents were, couldn't handle things emotionally, you couldn't give me what I needed emotionally. You know what I mean? When I needed shit, they were like, whatever, I'll pay for this.

They could do that. You know, Matt, I just, I'm just saying I was in a situation where I was so fortunate. fortunate, like, privileged out the ass to be able to know now the things that I know and to see the behaviors of myself. Like, some people, their family situation could never do that. And my family situation, like, accidentally did it. But, you know, it's like, oh, man. And I've just been so fortunate.

Like, a boosted up being white, being a dude, being from where I'm from. Like, so I don't want to, I'm, there's a lot, way more brave people out there, like, actual brave people, you know, and I am doing the best with what I can. And I'm proud to say that I'm doing the best with what I can. But I just feel like during this time, it'd be hard for me to be like, I'm so brave because I really had it so easy. But let me finish my thought. What I was going to say is that it's really brave to talk publicly about something that

a lot of people don't understand and that a lot of people tease. That makes me happy. I'm lucky in that way, too, because I got this cool job. And I can't, it's like, you know, when you see the other kid pee your pants and you can be like, well, the cool kid peed his pants. Like I feel like fortunate that have people listen to my band and the people being like, you're, you know, you're good at this. So I have this ability to be like, check it out. You know, here's some real shit that's going on. Well, and also I think that, you know, being honest about your story and your journey is very important because a lot of people hear this like, you know, like, I had trouble.

and then I got better and my life is great, you know? And I think that can be helpful for some people, but I think what Jonathan and I really appreciate and, you know, the kind of people that we love to talk to are people who are still figuring it out, you know? And it's like I literally, I live one day at a time, you know? Like, I don't think I've said anything to you today that made you mad, but I said a lot of things yesterday.

And today I was like, just one hour at a time. Well, he was like joking with something me, and I really wanted to say something snarky. And I was like, you know what? I'm just going to breathe through this. And then I don't say something stupid and I don't feel like a jerk because my feelings got hurt

because I'm the most important person in the universe. So it's like I love that you're very like, you're still figuring it out, you know? I gotta send you this song that I, what you said, I wrote it. It's on a new album that's coming out. It's not out yet, but I've been playing it. And like to work it out.

And the song's called I don't want to die tonight. And the lyric in the song is, Tonight I don't want to die. but tomorrow I might. And it was from an NA meeting, you know, a Narcotics Anonymous meeting where my sponsor said, you know, right now I'm going to be good. Like, I don't know, hit me up tomorrow. Maybe tomorrow will go get high.

And I was like, damn, I finally actually got the one day at a time, one moment at a time thing. I think for years I had just heard it as a, you know, one step at a time. But it really, really hit me. I was in a meeting the other day and the topic was like, what something? that like recently clicked. And that's one of those for me that recently like really did. Like we only get to do today. And of course you have to think about things. You have to plan things. But in terms of like, was I an asshole today? You know, when I lay my head down on the pillow, like what did I do today that's the person I want to be? And what did I do today that's the person

that I don't want to be? And what are the things that I can plan to do so that those things align better so that I do less of the things that I don't want to do and more of the things that things that I do. And that notion also that like whatever you feed is what grows, right? There's a, I think it's a, it's an indigenous story, the two wolves, right? Which one is going to win? It's the one that you feed, you know, and the more you feed. I'm not talking about positivity. Like that, no, no, no, no, no. Because that's like, that's false. I feel like that's like a false antidote. I think it's just a constant reminder that every single thing that's annoying you is a lesson. and every single person needs compassion.

You know what I mean? It's a cycle. It's forgetting that and being annoyed by shit and then remembering that and having that. And I can only remember it one day at a time. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

And then knowing that you're going to fuck up. Positivity is this fake thing. But when you have real, real shit, like the real joy or that real understanding, almost like that notion of like, it's going to be tough. Let's love it. let's figure out how we love it.

You know, let's learn from it. Like, you're in the middle of a miracle. That's what they tell you. You're just in the middle of a miracle. Really breathing into that and starting to look around and being like, am I like trying to attain something or is this something that I can actually experience without having to like, you know, get somewhere or like have a byproduct? I feel like I'm always in this cycle.

Like once I get one year clean, once I get this clean, once I do that, then everything's cool. But really it's like once you become at peace with what's happening. right now, whatever discomfort, shame, joy, whatever, you're feeling right now, then you're free. And it's real good shit. It's not like that fucking, it's not like the Instagram shit. It's that real shit. It'll make you cry shit. That's a beautiful soundbite right there. He's a beautiful soundbite. You're making me so happy right now. I was nervous about this going on here because you're so smart and funny. And I was like, I'm going to fuck this up so bad. Like my music's irrelevant. I'm irrelevant. Whatever.

Oh my, no. It really is a cool thing to have you, the thing, you know, your mental health issue or my bipolar or my, that stuff that could really flatten me, you know, like be a thing that I can actually use to help me make better connections with people, make every, make writing songs better, performing songs better, like waking up, I don't know, sometimes it's hard waking up in the morning, you know, and when your defect is also the thing that you're like, is kind of helping you out in a way. it's a hack. You know, we talk a lot about mental health, but this is all an experience on a massive spectrum, and the label of normal was applied a long time ago to fit a very narrow box, and a huge segment of the normal experience was excluded and given labels. And the reality is we weren't taught any of this in terms of, oh, wait a second, these are signposts to recognize that if I'm going to spiral way up,

I might drop really low and how do I deal with that if I'm in those situations versus there's something wrong with me for experiencing that range. You know, the ability of so many artists to experience a wider range of that experience.

Oh, yeah. That brings an enormous amount of magic into the world. Yeah, but as someone who also is an artist and really can lean very heavily into both my mania and my depression as an artist, I can also say that unchecked and in isolation, it's very, for me, it is very, very dangerous. And so part of what I've been grateful for is the guidance of, yes, of trained professionals who have helped me know the borders and boundaries of it, you know, so that I know, oh, time to pull out my workbook.

Oh, time to do this. Or, oh, I'm having tachycardia. Like, my heart is racing and so is my brain and my mouth. the light on your dashboard goes on. It's like, hey, wait a second. Oh, I need to flag this. And also, I want to also just mention that, you know, you mentioned, you've been very, very positive, you know, about a lot of aspects. But there's a lot of things about being on medication that is very, very distasteful, especially for people who experience mania and depression.

Because I'm very, very productive if you let me not be on medication. I can be very productive. And you take it away from me. Well, that's what I was going to ask about, Anthony, is like, how did changing your relationship to some of the highs and lows impact your creativity? And did you ever worry that adjusting that or finding those flag posts or sign posts and trying to, you know, adjust either the highs or lows would impact you creatively? I did. When I was younger and still going through all those phases, I'm saying 24, 25, still thinking that, like, Jim Morrison was this cool. guy, you know what I mean? Like this elevated figure. And just as a, when my head hadn't really sunk in what was going on with me, I didn't really believe in myself anyway. So I didn't have this like,

oh, I can be an artist and I'm, and I belong to be an artist and I'm okay. I was still figuring that out. So anything that kept me going was just getting used for it. And then at some point during like an introspective moment, I really got this feeling. Maybe. Maybe. Actually, at some point, I was writing something. And I really clicked to me that spiritually, I'm more connected to everything when I'm feeling everything. And with the medication, with bipolar stuff, I mean, you guys know, it's sometimes finding out what works the best for you. And I went through a long time of trying different things where it was a nightmare. So having something where, you know, I definitely feel like I'm balanced, but I also am experiencing the spectrum of human emotion just like anyone else.

I'm just, it's a little bit easier for me to hold on to the middle ground when I'm starting to fly in either direction, which actually, when I'm focusing on that being the goal, makes me happy or makes me feel joy, you know, because I'm like, this is some real shit. And it doesn't need to, like, be a euphoric thing. And it also doesn't need to mean I'm like, you know, worthless. It's, it's real. Beautifully said, beautifully said. Something happened where I was writing, where when I was. sober, completely sober, I was like, this is how it's supposed to be. Spiritually, I meant to be right here when I'm doing this. And not that I haven't written things on drugs or drunk or in different times that weren't amazing and that I do think were great, but it's not really worth it to get there

sometimes. Like, I just can't make that mistake. You know what I mean? I could never see it as a thing where I was like, I need to get high to do this. It seems like it all is like it like takes away my life force. That's why we keep coming back because we only can hold that one day at a time, meaning all of us, we can only hold that one day at a time. And exactly what you said is what we need to be reminded of every single day.

Is it worth the risk? I've seen people lose their spouses, their children, their home, their life, you know, for a hit. So I just lost my brother-in-law. My wife's sister, a husband, who has four kids, you know, has been struggling a lot throughout the year and then, you know, made a choice and then just one. And it's, it's, I'm still fucked up from it. And, you know, I hate, I just said that,

but, you know, I just felt like I was in this conversation where I didn't mean to just be like, it's still very difficult for everyone. You know, my whole family and, you know, oh, it's just so hard to deal with that, you know. And you just want, you want people that are in the situation that can hear it to know that there is hope. There is hope. There is a new way. There's a new chance.

There's a new beginning. Like, if you're alive and you're listening, there's a chance for change. That's it. You don't need to to keep going on this path that you're on. You know, and I hope more than anything, if there's an echo of my existence in this world at all, it's to let somebody know that, yeah, you're here. We're both like this.

And, you know, we can help each other, like, check this out. You know, like, it's to remind somebody that they're not alone in this. You know, that's why doing stuff like this is. so cool and just being able to bring like the things like this because you just know that people look up to both of you and people that are listening out there they they come to stuff like this because you know they need they need to hear it they need to hear that that people are out there waking up every day you know making the decision for life and making the decision for love every day it's tough it's hard you know it's alienating it makes you feel terribly alone sometimes but

that people are doing it and that it's that it's possible you know just know that it's possible Anthony thank you so much thank you for sharing with us I feel inspired by him that was one of the most beautiful tributes and callouts if you are alive and listening there is hope take it from the marginally successful singer-songwriter guy you probably have never heard of but life is so so good thank you we really really appreciate your time thank you I love you guys Thanks for this. This was a really invigorating conversation. Well, we're here whenever you need us. I think this is the first guest who's made me cry.

This is... Oh, my goodness. I make you cry all that time. I had some tears. Life is difficult. It's also amazing in many, many ways. But people face struggle. They don't know what to do with it. They haven't been taught how to have the tools often.

They're looking for any type of direction and for him to reach out like that. And just his quote was so powerful. If you're alive and listening, there's hope. And he's obviously experienced so much on both ends of that experience spectrum. It just really touched me. He articulated really well some very complicated concepts of the emotional experience. His description of what medication does, I thought was very, very, well, accurate, but just so eloquent. The keeping you in the middle?

Well, and yeah, and just that notion that, like, he gets to experience the full range of emotion, because that's what people say. Like, it dampens you. I think that's really important, especially for people who are afraid of medication. If someone who is so prolific and so creative and literally has to live in that creative space where you need to experience so much, he's able to do it and also manage his mood. Like, that's amazing. I think some people consider that, like, you need substances, you need altered states of emotional consciousness or emotional experience to achieve that artistic output. And what he said about how it takes away part of his life force. It's like a trade.

And everybody has a different sense of what's worth it, you know, and that's, I can't make everybody's sense, my sense, you know. like it's very hard to stay sober, you know, forget about the mental health stuff. Like it's very, very hard to stay sober. And, you know, he said an interesting thing. Like when he went the first time, it was he didn't have that consciousness of like, I'm an addict. I need it to wake up. It was just like, this is how he was living his life.

Like, what's the problem? And I got caught, right? He wasn't ready. I keep going back to the creativity component. I see creativity as you are accessing other realms of your brain, of creativity of... Well, and the way that I see it is that I do believe that some people are addicts and some people are not, meaning some people suffer from the disease of alcoholism and some people do

not. And I also believe that there are some people for whom they can and do partake in substances that relieve inhibition, that make certain aspects of consciousness flow differently. and those people can choose to partake as they want to. And then there are some people, and I believe Anthony is one of those people, for whom that door is no longer an option. It's just no longer an option for him.

And so his challenge, his task, is to still be himself and to still be an artist and to still do all those things. And yeah, probably would be fun, good, like fill in whatever adjective, right? But it's not an option for him anymore. more. So the rest of his life is his option. I agree. We agree. I want to mention that there are resources available. We, of course, try and destigmatize and share a lot of information here. But if you

are experiencing suicidal thoughts or need help, please reach out to the Suicide Prevention Hotline. It's going to be on the video below. If you're listening in audio only, 800 273-8255. That's 800-273-8255. A lot of the reason that people are nervous to call hotlines is because sometimes you think, like, oh, I'll get over it. It's not really bad enough. They'll think I'm stupid or they'll think that I shouldn't have called. It is 100% the job of the licensed and skilled people who receive calls to deal with a full range of people's experience on the depression and suicidal ideation spectrum. There is no thought too small to not call. Ask Mime Anything at Bialik breakdown.com. That's BIA. L-I-K. Breakdown.com. There's a little, on the main page there, there's a little form. And follow the new Instagram page at Bialick Breakdown. On Instagram, you'll find more of us. You'll find little quotes. We're going to put all of Anthony's quotes. I think he's the new host of this show. I should have him co-host with me. She's already looking for my replacement, people. From our breakdown to the one we hope you never have.

We'll see you next time. down she's gonna break it down for you she's got a neuroscience phd or two one fiction and now she's gonna break down it's a breakdown she's gonna break it down she's gonna break it down