Mayim Bialik's Breakdown - Ask Mayim Anything #2

Episode Date: August 2, 2022

It’s an Ask Mayim Anything episode! Mayim and Jonathan do a deep dive breakdown of listener-submitted questions surrounding how and when to discuss your own mental health struggles with our children, differences between feelings of anxiousness and a Generalized Anxiety Disorder diagnosis, and the science behind laughter. They define and suggest ways to remedy our "god-shaped holes," explain the differences between fears and phobias, and consider ways to set and hold boundaries with our loved ones. We’re also joined by a very special guest, Bev Bialik, who discusses her experience with shopping around for a new therapist. BialikBreakdown.com YouTube.com/mayimbialik Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

My therapist said to me last week, which I told you, which I don't usually report, she said, You know, Beverly, I am not going to normalize the kind of life you have. She said, that would be doing you a disservice. She said, I'm not going to make light of it. We're going to go deep with it, which I like, that's what I want. She said, but we're not going to be like you had this, this, this, and that's normal. Because I had a lot of very traumatic things happen. And she said, and the fact that you're standing up and telling me,

appearing so well doesn't excuse the PTSD and the trauma you've been through. Hi, I'm Myam Biolic and welcome to My Breakdown. This is the place where we break down the things that make us break down. It's Myambiolic's breakdown. She's going to break it down for you because you know she knows a thing or two. And now she's going to break down. Today we've got a lot of fun ahead. A lot.

We are going to be answering some of your Ask Myam anything questions. And we have a very special guest who's going to be coming on to talk in detail about her experience with one of the questions. Jonathan, what are some of the categories we'll be covering today with our Ask MyMM Anything questions? My favorite question, the God-shaped whole question. Okay, we talk about God-shaped whole. How do you talk to a family member about their mental health impacting you? How do you talk to kids about your own mental health and at what age? That's a good one too.

Anxiety. Always anxiety. Everyone asks about anxiety. Everybody. Everyone is anxious. What else? But it's okay. It is okay. And we'll talk about why it's okay.

All right, let's answer some Ask MyManythings. Jonathan, where should we get started? Ask myM anything. Yeah. Let's start with a little fun before we get too serious. That's how we do. Our first question comes from Matthew Tufts. He says, my family was listening to one of your podcasts, and we thought we heard that one of your public online classes broke a world record.

But I couldn't find anything about that on Google. Did that happen and which one? Because I participated in many of them. Can you hold that up? Why put my headphones on? This is a Guinness World Record certificate. The largest online science lesson consisted of 13,393 users. That was, I guess, actively logged into the same time.

And it was achieved by varsity tutors, and it was my class on the 21st of May. 2020. And then it says officially amazing. I have this certificate, which the only reason it was like right there is because I've been trying to figure out hanging it, but it also feels a little weird. So it was really funny. You just carried around with you. I just carry it around. So yes,

Matthew, thank you for participating. And there it is. It was my neuroscience class that I did for varsity tutors. Next, we'll go from some fun and games to a conversation about mental health with kids. From Amy, how do you start a conversation with your kids about your own mental health?

and what age do you think it's appropriate? Now, the way that I would answer that is you can start talking to your kids or they can just see you crying uncontrollably. It's kind of, it's sort of, it's an organic. Just talking to some of the moms out there who are just like... And dads. And dads who are just in the corner crying and their kids are like, what's the matter? It's funny because, you know, I definitely had some rough times when my kids were younger

and when I did finally really start kind of turning this ship around, and I did start engaging with them, I could tell it was a real relief for them because we talk a lot about what happens when a children's internal world doesn't match the external world, meaning what they're told. So if you tell a kid, everything's fine. They know everything's not fine.

How? Tone of your voice, body language, what your face looks like when you're lying. and if you believe in any sort of energy, kids can sense when something's wrong. So when I finally did start kind of talking to my kids more extensively, I didn't talk about diagnoses with them, but when my older son was probably around 10, it means my younger one would have been seven. I spoke a little bit more generally about, you know, sometimes mama has a hard time, which again was really evident. You know, I got divorced when they were seven and four.

And I'd say those were some of, you know, the hardest years just, you know, dealing with that transition. So, you know, I don't know what age it's appropriate for anyone in particular to speak to their children, especially if you have a child with special needs or a child who's extra sensitive. I have been told that girls and boys react differently. And, you know, I only have boys, so I can only speak to that. But some people have mentioned that, especially if you're talking about things like divorce, oftentimes, you know, thank you patriarchy, girls have a much more specific formation already. about marriage and commitment than often boys in our culture do.

And that's just it's products, it's movies, it's marketing, it's all those things. So now that my kids are older, I have spoken freely with them about the things about me that make me different and special. They know that I take medication. They recently asked why I seem to be doing so well. And I was like, well, we made a medication change. Thanks for asking. And they were like, oh, okay.

they know that I go to therapy. It's something I've never hid from them and I've been very open with them about it. And I think that's just really the start of a conversation that, yeah, I've had with them. They knew I go to Nancy. That's what they call it. You know, you don't want to scare children with labels. You don't want to label them in a way that makes them feel like they don't get to have also their individual experience. And I think the same is true for adults. I also really love to overdiagnose. That's a problem that I have. But I I think that also comes from just being trained in neuroscience. And, you know, the kind of vocabulary that I have is it is. It's biological and it's technical. And so they've learned the difference between anxiety attacks and panic attacks and things like that. I've seen it be very effective to talk to very young kids about their emotional experience and helping them understand that there is a range of emotion and that adults get upset sometimes and to be not pretend that it doesn't happen and to acknowledge.

apologize for it, say sometimes I get sad, sometimes I get angry, and it helps them understand and label their emotions. That is the beginning of what I think about mental health is just an awareness of our emotional states and emotional experience and normalizing it. Yes. And one of the things actually that our therapist suggested when we got divorced was don't tell your kids you're okay if you're not. And to be able to say, like it's okay to say, oh, you miss dad's, Sometimes I miss him too, you know, because that's true, right? And to not let them see you drinking it away, eating it away, drugging it away, you know, whatever it is, to let them see that sometimes, yeah, grownups have big feelings. And also it's really important, you know,

whether you're a divorced family or not, to communicate to children that you can manage your own feelings, even if it doesn't feel like you can. It is important to say, I take care of my feelings and I also take care of yours because I'm the mom or I'm the dad, I'm the parent, I'm the grown-up, and that's my job. So again, in terms of talking to kids about my mental health, you know, my kids know a lot more now and they're 16 and 13. And I'd say bar mitzvah age, generally speaking, in our family tends to be when a lot of significant conversations happen.

So I definitely resonate with that 12, 13-year-old age for kids in terms of larger conversations. and there are also great resources. You don't want to overburden your children with your stuff because what it says to them is maybe I won't be cared for. If they're so caught up with their stuff, also can breed in children a need to fix and take care of their parents, which sometimes kids just have that nature. You know, they're kind of caretakery kids.

But you just want to watch for it. And I always try and say to my kids, like, if you ever have any questions about anything, I'm here. And I repeat that, you know. I know, mom, you're here. Like, it's important for them to keep hearing that, I think, especially through the teen years, which I'm, you know, making my way through. Speaking of teen years, Susie Rosuto asks, what information can I give in regards to teenagers and mental health? Many teenagers are dealing with anxiety and depression, and sadly, it's on the rise.

That's very true. I teach high school age students, which I love, and would appreciate any attention or focus on this topic. Thank you. Well, Susie, thank you for your great service. to the high school students that you teach. I'm not, obviously, I'm not a pediatrician. I'm not a therapist. So in terms of the support that I hope our school systems start getting, I know that's a much bigger issue than anything I can tackle. But I think especially with the times that we're living in, it's very important, I think, for teens to know that they're not alone. I know it sounds

kind of trite, you know, but this notion that there's a collective anxiety, you know, in our culture right now, which is very real. It's hard to manage that with the hormones of puberty and the complexities of being a teenager. And I think also, you know, the isolation that many of our kids and teens have been experiencing, it weighs differently. You know, for us as adults, you know, a lot of us have joked like, oh, I've been to enough restaurants, you know, like I've been out enough. But for teens, you know, especially I have one who's literally at the age of learning to drive like during COVID, he's like, I haven't been anywhere. I still can't go anywhere. So different pressure. have anything to add, ish? I know that a lot of states are mandating mental health education as a starting point. And, you know, it wasn't that long ago that it was, the mentality was still and is still in many places, suck it up, deal with it, you're feeling anxious, get over it. Just it's all about what you need to do. So continuing a language of education and giving people language for their emotional state, understanding that it, just because you're anxious, It doesn't necessarily mean that that needs to be fixed.

Sometimes it needs to be accepted. It will pass. What are techniques to be able to handle it? So I think that's a major starting point. And it also leads us to our next question from Julia. Just all leading one to the next. Which is, hi, Ma'am. How can I tell the difference between normal anxiety that all humans experience

versus those anxious feelings that are actually being a bigger issue? And we talk a lot about how do we know? what is a normal experience, and by normal, I don't mean that there is one necessarily normal experience versus we're all in a continuum. We all experience a range of emotion. And at what point am I like, wait a second, whatever skills I may learn that I'll call soft skills or coping strategies aren't cutting it anymore and a larger intervention or change is needed. You talk about sort of the parameters of how to know this all the time. Yeah, I mean, two of the things we talk about are frequency and intensity. So frequency is how often something's happening and intensity is how

intense it is. And by intensity, a good kind of guide is how disruptive is it, you know, to your life. How disruptive is it to your daily functioning? Anxiety is actually a normal emotion, right so it's very helpful in some is right so jonathan why don't you talk about that uh it's helped us survive for as long as humans have been around we have to be afraid in order to sense danger it helps motivate us sometimes the fight or flight response when it's the fight part can be very helpful so is the flight yeah right also it really anxiety is it's a survival mechanism you know and one of our favorite examples is if you think of populations of animals or more here you're humans that have been under attack repeatedly or feel threatened, genetics might favor people who are

extra vigilant, right? Anxiety is, it's vigilance and it's incredibly important to be vigilant. You know, sometimes we'll see an increase in anxiety during pregnancy or during labor, obviously, and right after you give birth, and it's because you need to be vigilant to keep that baby alive. So everyone feels anxious once in a while, and that's okay. But anxiety disorders are disorders of anxiety that are diagnosed by a constant and overwhelming anxiety and fear. And that can make you avoid activities, people, things, situations. It could also make you skin pick. It can have physical issues like upset stomach and migraines. Totally. So what most people talk about is what we call gad, generalized anxiety disorder. And this is, I'm just going to read this definition.

This is from WebMD. Excessive unrealistic worry and tension with little or no reason. Now this is one of the hardest things to figure out because... Are you paranoid or are they out to get you? So some people are anxious simply because they have an anxiety provoking life and don't have skills yet with which to deal with it. People with generalized anxiety disorder are essentially, I don't want to say looking, but it's as if you are looking for things to be anxious about. Meaning it is beyond the scope of like, oh, this is anxiety. provoking. Like COVID anxiety provoking. If you're feeling anxious, for example, about a global pandemic, as some of us might have in years past, that's a normal response to a completely out of

control situation. If that starts generalizing to, I'm afraid of this, I'm afraid of that, I don't want to go outside, I'm afraid of dogs. It's starting to generalize more. My father has been afraid of inflation for 30 years and it's finally come. So now is he wrong? He was right. So once we get through generalized anxiety, we then move into panic disorder. And panic disorders and anxiety disorders are often grouped together. Panic attack, I describe it as you think you need to go to the hospital because you're dying. And there's a lot of physical symptoms associated with it.

There's not a rational like, oh, I'm having these feelings because I'm anxious. It's like, I think I'm having a heart attack. It is that level. Social anxiety disorder can also be social phobia. that's when you have overwhelming worry and self-consciousness, just about everyday social stuff that happens. There are also phobias, phobias of objects or situations. And the difference between a fear and a phobia is that it goes beyond what's appropriate.

Like, it's normal to be afraid of heights. Like no one's like, woo. I mean, some people might love heights. But like that's not a phobia per se, but like having a fear of balloons or kittens, Google it people, that would be a phobia. What happened to Fred when he saw the troll doll? Okay, we don't tease Fred. Fred, my younger one, would absolutely.

We've actually talked to him about coming on and talking about it. He has had some very specific phobias. That's a fear with no source that we have been able to identify. Troll dolls, there are other things. Used to be mascots. We actually moved through that one. If people want more information about this, they should really check out the Grace Helbig episode. Grace Helbig episode is great.

Our very, very first episode was on anxiety. And Mime does an entire like 40 minute introduction. Maybe it's only 20 minutes. Feels like 40. A ton of, chock full of great information, differentiation between panic attacks and anxiety attacks. And anxiety attacks. Thank you. But yeah, the general notion, you know, kind of to circle back to this question, I'm sorry for the long answer.

It's just, you know, how I speak. The general difference between normal anxiety that all humans experience and things that are a bigger issue would be the frequency, the intensity. there are self-diagnostic tests you can take in questionnaires. NAMI is always a good resource, the National Alliance for Mental Illness. Yeah, and my feeling is also, if you're not sure, get assessed by a professional. My NBialx Breakdown is supported by Superpower. We all know the feeling of leaving a doctor's office and kind of feeling like we didn't get anything out of the experience that was useful. Maybe they're like, you're fine.

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This is asked by Hannah. Hannah, thank you for this because we got it in a bunch of different forms from people. So really an important one. What do you think? Do you want to answer first? Are things happening in your life that are interfering with you doing the things that you want to do? So that's at one end. You mean, are things going on with you?

With you. Okay, got it. So at the most extreme, can you not get out of bed? Okay. Are you not showering? Are you not eating? So basic functioning. Basic functioning.

That's like way out there on the extreme. Eat, sleep, go to work. And have some things in your life that you're enjoying. Friends, hobbies. Friends, hobbies. Maybe a lover. Maybe. Not everyone wants that.

Are you like, is there a TV show that you, like little things? Can you enjoy a TV show? Do you enjoy anything in your life? Is everything a misery? So you're speaking specifically. Those are kind of depressing. markers, right? And those are really, really good. Are you going through your life? There are some things that you enjoy, but your stomach is like absolutely destroyed by worry all the time. Are you

having racing thoughts that you can't control? Does your life feel unbearable? Okay, great. So I think what that's like the far end of the spectrum. I think there are other ways that you should get help before that happens, but that's like kind of red flag for me. You know it's time to get help when you are having physiological symptoms that have no cause other than your stress and anxiety like your your life right meaning you know there was a time in my life where I was having a lot of stomach and intestinal stuff and I went to all the doctors there was nothing physiologically diagnostically wrong and I was like oh got it if you are having for example heart palpitations and shortness of breath and you go and get a cardiovascular workup and quote nothing is wrong

that is likely a physiological manifestation. It's not fake, but that's a physiological manifestation. So that's one way to know. If you're having physiological symptoms, and that could be things like we call it bubutami. Bubu tummy, like, if you're a person that, like, loses the contents of your stomach, like, I'm sorry, has diarrhea before a job interview,

if that's like a habitual thing for you, that your body has very specific strong reactions to stressful situations, that might be assigned to get help. if people in your life, if more than one person who knows you well has expressed concern over how you're doing, probably time to get help. If you're using any type of substance excessively is maybe a time to start looking at that? If you wake up in the morning and you're like, I can't wait until I can have a drink, get stoned.

Yeah, I mean, if those are things that you find yourself fantasizing about, if you are having night terrors or sleep that is so disruptive that you feel it's difficult to function. That's a good indicator. Sudden weight loss or weight gain. Here's one that you might not realize. I mean, those are some good ones, though. If you think that everyone in your life is horrible, the likelihood is you need some help.

If you think more than three people a day are an asshole, you're the asshole. My friend Allison taught me that many years ago. It's true, too. If you constantly find yourself in conflict with friends, family, and work. If everyone is pissing you off, it might be good to talk to someone. If you're constantly finding yourself not going anywhere in your life, you're like stuck.

You feel like, I don't know what's going on, but I'm just sort of nothing is moving forward in life. That is something also that might be going on. If you have a depressed song, and for those of you out there who know what I mean, if you have a depressed song that you've been listening to for more than a year, you probably should talk to someone. If you feel an enormous amount of anger and rage, like, I don't know, like many times a day or many times. times a week? If you are feeling violent, if you are throwing things, slamming, ripping, self-harming or harming others, absolutely. If your children are afraid of you, get help. I'm just going to say it because I've had times in my life when my children, they were, that my anger scared them, my voice scared them, the way I angrily shushed them,

scared them. And that was a very, very strong wake-up call. So those are some general guidelines and nothing wrong with talking to someone and seeing if after that interaction, they have maybe an appropriate assessment of whether you would benefit from continuing getting help. Last one. Sometimes it's a good idea to get help if you're just like, I really don't know myself.

I feel a little lost, a little purposeless, aimless, can't find a direction, not sure what I'm interested in. Could be good to get some help. I'm going to give one more. if you are that person who keeps jumping from thing to thing to thing to thing to try and find the thing that it will make it better, you probably would benefit from a different kind of assessment and help. Good one.

I think that is a good one. Really quickly, we got a question that says, you mentioned binding anxiety. I was wondering what that is. And what are some of the ways you can see it in ourselves and others? super fast in mind because I think we've covered this a few times, but binding anxiety, tell us what it is and how we might recognize it. So I have heard this expression from someone else. I didn't make it up. Binding anxiety is something that we do to try and put our anxiety somewhere. This is an example for anxiety.org just so you can like hear it in a sentence. Given enough

anxiety, any family can be symptomatic. Symptoms in an individual may serve to lower the anxiety in the family as a whole by binding the anxiety to a symptomatic member. So this is an example of a dynamic that occurs when this is a family example where it's as if anxiety can be attached to something thereby diffusing it elsewhere. And it's something that we do ourselves as well. It's like when a mother is so worried about a kid, but really she's just a worried person. And if it wasn't the kid, she'd be worried about something else. Oh, so actually that's, I think,

I think that's a really good example. There's a joke in my family that a coat is something you wear, a kid wears because their mother is cold. That's right. That's actually a really good example. Parenting is a great place to see this when you see parents kind of more concerned about how other people are treating their child when their child seems fine, but it's theirs. And that could be other stuff. But the notion of binding anxiety is one that we do talk about in terms of there are behaviors we do, again, to try and like put it over here. I put it over here. It's not always conscious. We were talking more about how to individuals bind their own anxiety, not in a family dynamic, but it's like, I'm going to focus on downloading all the music that I possibly can and having endless perfect playlist so that any time I want something, it's an, it's an outlet. It's an anxious outlet. People eat, people distract themselves. Yeah. What do you say? Are you actually hungry,

or is your mouth bored? Is your stomach hungry or is your mouth lonely? Yeah. Also, you know, a good measure is kind of hungry, angry, lonely, tired. Those are places that, you know, it's always good to look to when you're anxious or not feeling right. It's often one of those. Joanne Potter would like some more sciencey stuff about laughter, because laughter is the best medicine. You know when you laugh so hard you cry, like you start hyperventilating because you're laughing so hard? That's really what I want to live for, Joanne. I feel those amazing, she feels amazing. after those sessions. What happens in your brain when you laugh and why does it make you feel so good? Before you answer this, there is actually laughter yoga. I don't know if you've heard about this before where you get in a, and I did this once. I'm sure you did. You get in the circle of people and someone starts laughing. And it's fake at first because there's nothing actually funny happening. But if you can kind of go there and let yourself go, what happens is that fake laughter actually turns out to be real laughter. And it's extremely therapeutic. I forget now when I did this. It was years and years and years ago. But honestly, these days, I would go back. That's a very important component of my response to this question from Joanne. Laughing is a social contract. Yes, you can laugh alone. Like sometimes I do L.O.L. But then I always tell the person I'm texting with. I'm literally L.O. Because I really want them to know. Laughing is, it's kind of a social contract that we make.

Because laughing only by yourself without any stimuli is a little, a little strange. Depends. But what's funny is when I read this question, I thought it was you giving me notes about how to respond. So picture Jonathan's voice. I thought that her question was I'd love to hear more science stuff about laughter. And then I thought that it was Jonathan saying, you know when you laugh so hard you cry? And I was like, yes, Jonathan, I do. Like you start hyperventiling.

And I was like, oh, like that time we were laughing. And then it said, I feel amazing after those laugh sessions. And I was like, Jonathan, that is so sweet. Pause one second. We went to an event one time. This is like the one time I've gotten dressed up in the last two years. And by dressed up, we mean jeans and sneakers that he doesn't normally wear. I had a blazer on.

There's a picture on Instagram of that event. What happened at that event? Many things happened at that event. What do you mean? I don't remember what we were talking about, but we were on someone's very fancy lawn. There are people everywhere around us. And all of a sudden, we're having a conversation. My internes and does a spit take.

I totally did. It was a real spit take. In the bushes. With very fancy people around. And I don't know what you were drinking if it was water or wine or I don't, I have no idea. But all of it went into the bushes. I totally had. And I like, what is happening here?

I don't even think it was that funny, but it was great. I felt pretty good about myself. There you go. That's probably what it's for. Laughter releases everybody's favorite neurotransmitters, dopamine and serotonin. One them all. Jonathan, do you remember what serotonin is? It's the happy pill.

That is the happy one. That's the one that like Prozac targets. When you hear SSRI, that's a selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitor. I just tell my brain to make more and it does. How's that working for you? Pretty good. Okay. The other thing that laughter does is it switches out cortisol with dopamine and yes, with oxytocin.

And cortisol is the stress hormone. You don't want to that. It switches out, right, the stress hormone with things like dopamine, which you just talked about. Oxytocin, yes, that is the feel good. that's the orgasm hormone and the love baby bonding hormone and the love baby bonding hormone and endorphins and that makes you feel good but we cannot answer a question about laughter without saying is laughter associated with any mental illnesses yes inappropriate laughter is a feature of well you sometimes see it in mania or hypomania if anyone saw the joker and also in schizophrenia also there's a

pseudo-bulber affect. Sometimes you see this. We talk about a Parkinsonian mask. This actually happened to my father because he had one of these, he had multisystem atrophy. And sometimes he had almost a smile that was not appropriate because it literally is, it's a breakdown of basal ganglia. And anyway, the other thing I wanted to say is what is nervous laughter?

Do you know? I don't, but that's where I was going to go. That is not helpful, the nervous laughter. And actually it makes me, I knew someone. Yes. Everything this woman said she would laugh after. Right. It was so uncomfortable because I'm like,

you are clearly the most uncomfortable person in your own skin. Okay. And you can't tolerate any form of interaction. And so there's this laughter afterwards. And I would like, I don't know, I had a very difficult time with that. Well, it can be disconcerting also very different culturally. There are places in the world where you will go where the affect is very, very different. So some of this is culture specific, but nervous laughter is a reaction to stress, tension, confusion, or anxiety.

People laugh to protect dignity and control in times of stress and anxiety. This is like when you say something serious on text, but you don't want it to be so serious and then you add an L.O.L. And I'm like, it's not funny. I'm just going to say a really gendered thing. Many women have of men. When things are intent. What do we say? Leave a tender moment.

No, but I'm totally on a different track here. You'll say something very serious, but you want to soften it. And so you'll like, try to make it less intense by adding a, ha-ha, I could be joking. Okay, but mostly I was criticizing you, which I think you picked up on. The other thing I wanted to say before we move on. We're moving away from that pretty quickly. But I also want to say, can too much laughter hurt you? And the answer is yes.

You and your father will appreciate this. Too much laughter can lead to fainting. Asthma attacks. I've had an asthma attack from laughter. I have absolutely had asthma attacks from laughing too much. Also, protrusion of abdominal hernias. I've had four hernias. Was it from a laughing? Probably not.

No, but that's one of the things that can be really painful and that you're not supposed to do when recovering from your surgery. Hold on. Headaches. Incontinance. Jaw dislocation. Be careful out there when you're having fun. And also, I'm going to get in trouble for this.

But Maim has pied herself a little bit from laughing too hard. Only because I've had two children. Well, actually, even women who don't have children, apparently those muscles, they just start atrophying as you get older. So if you're a very funny person, you have a lot of power, be careful. Heather Campi would like to know, hey, Maim, you've mentioned God-shaped horse. several times. What exactly is a God-shaped hole? How do we remedy or cope with it? And if we have one, thanks so much, Heather. Okay. God-shaped hole is a concept I learned about in the 12-step

rooms because it is, I believe, in the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous, which I have read. And the notion is it is a place in your heart or a place in you that you try to fill with things. Sugar is one. Alcohol is the one, obviously, that the big book of Alcoholics is not talking about. Drugs, work, sex. The idea is that the God-shaped whole, you can try and fill it with anything, but that doesn't fit because it's shaped like God. And the only thing that can fit there is God. It is in its origins, I will say, I think it's important to say. It is a Christian concept. And I actually looked it up.

In 1670, Blaise Pascal published a defense of the Christian religion. And the quote is, what else does this craving and helplessness proclaim, but that there was once in man a true happiness of which all that now remains is the empty print and trace. And he goes on to say, it can only be filled with an infinite and immutable object, in other words, by God himself. So I did not take it as a Christian concept, although I just wanted to be honest about it. But yeah, the God-shaped whole is the place inside all of us that feels lonely, sad, and in need of filling. And I also am not saying that that needs to be filled with God because I'm not that kind of religious person.

But for people in 12-step programs, you fill that with spiritual growth with an acceptance of a power that greater than you. I think it should be stated that we don't need. need it to be a religious divinity. No. People can have a purpose in their life that fills the God-shaped toll. Well, they're a connection to nature, for example. That's spirit. I consider that spiritual.

The God-shaped toll is something you fill with something spiritual, and that's going to be different for every person. If you're not working on putting a God-shaped thing into your God-shaped hole, Kara asks, how do I talk to my mother about how her mental illness is negatively affecting me. I would broaden that to how do you talk to people in your family about how their behavior is negatively impacting someone. I've tried talking with her many times and she always has an excuse of why her mental health should come before mine. I've tried therapists and all I've had is bad experiences. I'm taking a break right now

because I've always ended up feeling worse in therapy. And I know not all of them are bad. I just don't feel like I can statistically be able to find a good one at this point. I feel stuck in a shitty loop and I don't know what to do. Great question, Kara. I have a... First of all, I'm very, very sorry that you have tried therapists. I mean, I would be curious to know a little more detail.

So I don't feel I can fully answer this question without knowing more about what kind of therapist have you tried. what did you take to them? What didn't you like about them? Because sometimes we don't like therapists because they don't give us the answer we want, which can be the same of religious leaders or parents or even friends. So I would want more information.

And sometimes you do feel worse when you start uncovering things. It's the things sometimes do feel worse before they feel better. But that aside, Jonathan, what's the difference of insanity? Trying to do the same thing and expecting different results.

Right. So Kara, maybe this is, I hope I don't say, maybe I will say things that are the same things that the therapist you've tried have said. Stop talking to your mom about this because she will always have an excuse of why her mental health is either more important than yours or should come before yours. So the only thing we can change is ourselves. Ourselves. So while I empathize with you and I feel very deeply how complicated this must be, at this point in your life, you probably need to see your mother less. You probably need to talk to her less. And I'm not saying don't speak to your mother.

I'm saying set boundaries. Set some boundaries and hold them. And you do that lovingly because she has stuff she needs to figure out and you are not her messenger. And however you've told her this before, this is what I've been told, she's likely not stupid. And she can hear. hear you. So it is creating more tension. If you're having trouble holding that, you need to take care of yourself because she may not change and that actually is okay. She gets to do her life. So what I would recommend if you have any, any alcoholism in your family, anyone who's drinking bothers you, even a friend, a boyfriend, a girlfriend, a sibling, go to an Al-Anon meeting, because this is exactly the kind of thing that Al-Anon deals with if you are affected by

any kind of alcoholism because it sometimes will come out like this, where we want other people to do what we want so that they will put us first when what we kind of need to focus on is how for us to put ourselves first. I would absolutely recommend that. If this is a pattern you see in other relationships, I would try a codependence anonymous meeting. There may be something there and, you know, it's free. Try it. You can go on Zoom if you don't like it and it doesn't speak to you.

Fine. It's just gathering more information, especially if you're not up to looking for a therapist. There are other places that have good track records with helping people understand difficult relationships. And we wish you the best, Kara. Check out the Will Wheaton episode. It's a... Will Wheaton episode. That's a good one.

It's a tough one. I love how you remember which episodes relate to these questions. Yeah, I do. And then Kara Mayor Robinson had a lot of advice. Cara Mayor Robinson was a great episode about family dynamics. A lot about family dynamics. It comes to mind this notion of like we have to accept things as they are. The way you say it is that we can't control other people.

We can only control ourselves and our reactions. And that's exceptionally difficult with parents because there's a certain point we have to look to our parents as adults and say, who are they? what are they capable of and what type of relationship am I willing to have with them? And, you know, Will talks about him coming to terms with that for himself. And not everyone's path will be like that. But I think if we have expectations that I need anyone to act in a certain way to help me feel okay. It's only by saying I need X in my life and those people are either going to be able to help and live in a way that feels okay for me or not. no matter who they are.

And I'm not advocating what relationship you should have with anyone, only that you can't change them at a certain point. And you have to accept who they are. And that's the most loving thing to do. Well, and also I'd like to emphasize, I don't know who should speak to their parents and not. You know, I'm not saying don't speak to your mom. What I'm saying is it's kind of like if it hurts when I do this,

stop doing that. And then get more information on how to proceed. Yeah. And again, this is not a case of like having a meaningful conversation about why you're detaching lovingly. Change your behavior, meaning protect yourself. And yeah, and, you know, we teach others how to treat us is another way to look at it. Jake Rothcogel asks, how do I bring up the topic of therapy with my family and ask for help?

I think what Jake is asking is, how does he get his family into therapy or get one of them into therapy for themselves? I don't. I actually don't know. You know, I think in general, what I've learned is you can ask something once. You can ask it nicely and politely. And then you get to, again, take care of yourself. There have been times in my life when I've asked my parents to go with me to therapy to talk about something that I needed support with.

Those are fun days. And, you know, there are also resources. especially if you're a young person, there are resources for young people. Nami is a great place to start nami.org to essentially help you script it. You know, I'm having some challenges and I'm asking for help. I need help. That is its own prayer. Not you are bothering me to the point where I can't exist.

Correct. Not your behaviors. Using eye statements. Always use eye statements. I'm needing help with this. I'm finding these feelings unmanageable. Always use eye statements. If anything you say is like, you're always the, don't use always and never.

conversation closers. We're about to bring on a very special guest to tell us about her. Very special. And she likes to be special. She loves to be special. And she's going to tell us all about her therapy experience. And Lauren, you're in luck because your question about how can I tell if I'm just not working with my therapist or should try someone else or if therapy just isn't for me? It's emotionally draining to change therapists and to start all over again. You can say that again. how can I tell if it's just not a route that works for me or if it's worth going with someone else? And to help us answer this, we're going to talk with Bev Bialik about her therapy experience. Yeah, my mom recently went through all of these things that, is it Lauren? That Lauren was asking. So this is very special in that we're going to have her in person. Let's welcome Bev.

your therapist who you've been seeing gosh I guess about six years since dad died almost seven yeah almost seven he recently retired which is his prerogative he did and of age you were faced with an interesting situation first option was ask him if you could stay on as his only client so that you could be special I never at he's got family that are using him as that every day now I'm certain that's true for all therapists yeah yeah so you kind of went back and forth like at first you were We're like, this is great. I don't need to go to therapy. And I was like, okay, why don't you give that some thought?

No, if your therapist retires, that means you graduate. That's exactly. And you're fixed. Yeah. You started having some physical symptoms of anxiety. Yeah. To which I said, that might be an indicator that it's a good idea to find someone new. Re-up.

Yeah. I was having, I've never had this heavier breathing, but then I thought, well, I'm wearing a mask. You know, and I walk a lot, but the breathing I'd never had. had that. And then I was having, just I felt slower. I felt like I slowed down. Then I had terrible backache. So it was moving around, which might mean it's neuroplastic. Hello. Look at this one, neuroplastic. I know. I know. Listen. Fake pain. Real pain. Not fake pain. Real pain, but not caused by the break. Perceived. Right. I mean, I'm a student. So you experienced this. You think, wait a second.

Maybe there's a neurological component going on or a psychological component. Well, I did go and have the treadmill and the EKG. Oh, no. She was in the hospital, Glennie. No, one day. Treadmill, EKG and whatever. And the other one. E-E-G? Yeah, there's another monitor, whatever.

And everything looked fine. So, you know, at that point, everything looks fine. You say, okay. Also, she thought maybe I'm anemic. They thought that at first. So I started eating more lentils, more peas. but I have a very healthy diet. So you got a clean bill of health from...

Clean A plus. The only A plus I've ever gotten in my life in any school class. And then you said, okay, what should I do next? Then I call my... And I go to my... Which meditation... So this is my... Let me describe what happened.

So I said, I don't believe in doing the work for her, but I felt like with my resources, I can give her, you know, I can get some referrals for her. So she's a very, very good student. Well, first, wait, first, we have to say my therapist was in the Kaiser system. Yes, which we have nothing against the Kaiser system. No, no. However, they do not really do therapy.

No, literally once a month you do a catch-up. Well, a lot of larger corporate hospitals and health organizations have not yet caught up too many parts of the world that see mental health as an extension of your health. Yeah. So the Kaiser system is simply not set up to facilitate, at least in our Kaiser, weekly therapy. Well, what was interesting, though, they gave me another therapist and I thought it was going to be fine. And I kept trying to make it fine.

So I didn't understand because I never know how much I'm supposed to push myself to make something work and how much I'm supposed to protect myself and say, it's not me, it's them. So I kept trying to make my, I kept trying to act the way I thought she wanted me to act. With this replacement person you were given. It wasn't working. Okay. So I let you have that experience. Yeah.

And I got some referrals for you. Which was great. And she spoke to this person and didn't ask how much, he didn't ask like what her budget was or, you know, So he gave her a price and she thought you say that you go with that person. So there was a couple things. How I got married. The first one? Pretty much.

So what I said, and we don't really need to get into the details. No. But what I said is when you're looking for a therapist, you don't take the first one that you speak to. You want to meet different people and see what's a good fit. And a lot of people who are like, but I don't want to go to therapy in the first place. Now I got to meet three people. Yes. It's kind of like.

With me, it was more of. even with the Kaiser therapist that I was trying to mold myself to, I always think, well, they've got to be the right one. Well, and this is another huge problem that we all, that many of us run into, especially if you have any authority issues, authority figure issues. Yeah, it's like, you assume, oh, they're in the position to be helping me, like, oh, I guess this is the way it should be. And it was also he wants me.

He'll take me on. Oh. And he's so special. And if he takes me on, then I'll be special too. Wow. So that's another level that might be special for you. But what I thought was really important is how few of us, you know, have that experience of like, what do I want?

You know, what's a good fit for me? And just like there's different kinds of people, there's different kinds of therapists. And some will be more emotional. Some will be more cognitive. And there's not a right or wrong. And one of the things that my mother also discovered... There might be a right or wrong, by the way. Right.

Well, that's just your organizing. principle. So, but what was interesting is that one of the people she spoke to on the phone was like, this is great. And when she did a Zoom session with him, not great. And it was very, very specific. Like she was like, no. So what ended up happening is we had to go through a little bit of a process. And yes, it is laborious because I said to her, do you know what you can afford? Do you know what you want? How much are they asking? Do they have a sliding scale? What's there? You know, are they supervised by someone? So what my mom ended up having is the first person that she really liked, it's someone who's training under him. So the rates are lower, which is very comfortable, you know, because they are learning and you're with someone who's being supervised by someone who, in our case, you know, came recommended. So that's a really kind of nice, you know, place to land. And most importantly, it's been a really good fit. But I think so many of us have. You know, if we have authority figure issues, which that can be even if you have not a reverence, but a fear of authority.

And the money issue, that was the hardest for me. The money issue is huge. And you're starting a relationship with a stranger where you have to have several awkward conversations, right? You have to talk about money. You have to talk about essentially what, you know, however honest you want to be, your deepest issues and pains and wounds. And it can be hard. But I think the important thing, and this is what I tried to keep emphasizing, you know, to you. I got support in emphasizing it to you. It really is your, it has to be your choice. It has to be what you decide is right. And if that means no therapy, then that's what you're choosing. If it means that you like this person, but it's too expensive, then you can choose not to do it or you can say, I want to choose to do it. But you should never start a therapy situation by feeling

awkward, you know, either because you feel you've been pressured into it or like you're the boss of your own life. It's almost like you need therapy to find a therapist. You know, it's always like, it's like hard of finding a job than doing the job. Totally different skill set. You want my take on how it went?

Yeah, let's get your take. So it was great. Myam has a lot of references because she knows a lot of therapists, et cetera. So that was terrific. She gave me one name. So I call him up. It's like when they give you one bullet for the gun,

I call him up. He is so fabulous on the phone. I'm like, I'm in love with him. He's got the accent. He's bright. He's intuitive. We're joking. He's deep.

He's smooth. So smooth. He never said anything about money to me, which I feel like it should be in his. I'm coming to him. I need the help. He should be saying this is my fit. At the end of the conversation, it should be just so you know my. Yeah.

So anyway, I don't ask about money. But then at the end, he finally somehow we got to the money part. It's very awkward to have like that kind. Especially man. I don't like the whole. So anyway, he tells me what the price is. I don't know. If you don't know, you don't know what to ask.

I think that's the fee. We're done. But I loved him. He was great. I go, okay, send me the papers. She then says, Mom, I got three more names for you. I'm like, what? Because it had been five minutes.

Literally. But I did. She didn't say more's coming. I like when she says sit tight. But she didn't say sit tight. So I said, my, am I already said, yes. She said, well, you got to get. go through this. So then I got it. I said he's charging what? That's what I said. And also he was charging a

completely reasonable amount for someone at a different earning bracket. But I don't know that's not the price because I've been paying zero at Kaiser. It's the best. And you get close to zero. But I wasn't even going to happy there for zero with the new person. I'm like zero is no. So anyway, so then I get a clipboard and I get my paper. Now I'm going to be serious. Now it's like speed dating. I called the first guy. He's wonderful. But now I'm on Zoom. I said, I don't want to do phone calls.

Good. And I told her. It's important. You're allowed to ask. I didn't know. So I emailed the person and I say, could we have a Zoom meeting? He said it's complimentary. He told me.

We love that word. He was wonderful. He was very kind of middle-A, you know, very, he was brilliant. And I could see we had a great rapport. And he asked me a question. The first guy, we were more schmoozing on the phone. So this is guy number two. Number two on Zoom.

On Zoom. And I told the first guy after, I said, by the way, I sent him an email. I said, I didn't know there were more people for me to look at. I'm sorry. He said, you should. It's healthy. He never told me to go look. But anyway.

So, no blame. But anyway. So I'm talking to the second guy. And he said to me, he had the technique of asking me questions. Oh, that technique. Well, not everybody did that. He said, the first one didn't. He said, how do you wake up every day?

day, how is your demeanor, and how do you function all day? And I told you say, I said, I wake up happy, I wake up optimistic. What's that like? I'm very joyful all day. I find joy in small things. I have a lot of grat. I mean, that was my take on me during the day. Okay, hold on how do you go through your day? Depends on how well I've slept, but I wake up. I sleep great. Why do you need to go to therapy then? I'm telling you. That's my point. So he said, to me, how do you function? But we had a great rapport and I said, thank you so much. I have other people to look at. He gave me his price. It was $50 less than the other one, still high, but that's the deal. I said, thank you so much. I will get back to you. But now I'm already, I know how it's going to work.

So I go to the next one, the third one. The first man described her as his associate. She tells me, but her price is lower. I'm thinking an associate. That's half it. She tells me, And I see her on Zoom. She's reminded me in Miami a lot. Kind of that age, glasses, very serious. You know, I don't like schmoozers in therapy. So she tells me right away, she is in a four, I asked her how many years. It's a four-year program, Ph.D.

And this and that. And she was very, very kind of profound in the way she approached and the way she phrased her questions. and she also had, you know, I have in my head the way your therapist has a marvelous voice. And I had in my head I wanted that kind of sound. And I... They have to practice what kind of voice they use, right, Erin? She had a marvelous voice and it reminded me of your therapist's voice. And I really, really liked her a lot.

And I asked her a few questions. I said, well, are you supervised? I didn't say anything bad about it. I said, are you supervised? by him. She said, yeah, she has to go to him with her case, but, you know, and she said, I hope you want to work with me. So then I get off the phone and Maim said her therapist generously offered to talk to me about my choices. Now, I was getting a little pushback from Mayam because she had a certain routine. She wanted me to follow with therapy.

Weekly therapy is something I do believe in. I was pushing back and her therapist was fabulous because she said to me, I didn't think I had made a decision. And she said to me, and she said to why is Mayam's opinion so important to you? Great question. I said because I want to show her I'm growing and I want to be open, but I still, you know, I have to follow my gut reaction. You know, there's that, you know, there's that fine line. And she said to me, I think you already made a choice

and you know what you're going to choose and you should go with it. What did you choose? Exactly, the one that she thought, and she said, go with it. And she gave me the confidence. to not bend. I mean, I was, you know, not that I chose. The choice was the person. The associate.

But then I still had to go back. I said, I'm not happy until I see the one I saw on the phone. The one that she only spoke to on the phone, number one. She did a Zoom with him. This was a shock of my life. So I emailed him. He looks totally different, right? I email him and I said, now that I've seen all the other people, including his

associate, I said I really would love a complimentary short Zoom. Complimentary. He said, well, I can give you 15 minutes. Great. I say, great. I'm just going to say I was never so disappointed and surprised. See, I like eye contact. Call me crazy. He's like this. He's totally not looking at me. Now, granted, he may be a brilliant. He may be blinded by your beauty. Yeah, I'm sure. I was kind of blinded by his to tell you to know, but, but, but, but, but. I'm not. But. I'm not. He may be a brilliant. He may be blinded by his to tell you to know, but. But, but. But, but. But, but. He may be. He may be blinded. He may be blinded. He may. He may. He may. He may. He on the phone. I could have told him everything. And I couldn't. Interesting. He couldn't engage over Zoom. Not the way she wanted. A recurring theme that we have that specifically I see in my mom is if it's not the way she wants it, it's very upsetting to her. Meaning she can't imagine that anyone would be okay with this man. So what I said is, yeah, it doesn't work for you. but it doesn't mean that it's horrible or it's bad.

It's kind of the difference between a movie that's bad and a movie that you don't like, right? I don't like many good movies and I like many bad movies. But this is more like I'm trying to also, the larger thing I'm trying to help my mother see is that she gets to own her preferences as hers. And they are valid simply because they're yours,

even if no one else agrees, meaning. That was hard to accept. Everyone in the world could say, say I don't need eye contact. Some people don't even want to look at a therapist. But it's important to you, which means it's important. And I want to be seen. I guess that's it. So after this kind of journey, you have the person that you want. Yeah. It's amazing. It's going very nicely. It's going brilliantly. And you said that also you now see the level of care that you're getting from her. So different than what you've been getting for the last. I mean, maybe I was also, I think even if he

hadn't retired, I was ready for a shift. What does that feel like? It feels good. No, no, no. It feels good. No, describe what it feels like to think you might be ready for a change in therapy. When you're not being, I like to be probed. I like to go deep and I don't want a coffee clutch kind of. And sometimes this happens. Some people like that.

Well, some people like that, that's true. I got it, but not me. Well, and also one of the neat things, I was actually talking to somebody about this just the other day. You know, sometimes there's a familiarity with someone that you've been seeing as a therapist that in many cases or in some cases can lead to it feeling more like a friend. And sometimes people will say this. Like it just kind of feels like I'm like going and like talking about my week. So does that help or hurt the therapy?

I mean, I can't say. But for some people, that level is because something is brewing that isn't ready to come out that's more significant. And for some people, it might mean that you've gotten, you know, stale in your relationship. relationship and what's kind of fascinating. Like I always like to think, so for me, I do intensive psychotherapy where I've been with the same person on purpose for 20 years. And there are absolutely times when I'm like, what's, I feel like I don't have anything to talk about.

Believe me, there's always what to talk about. I agree. So it just depends on which box, not to be young here, which box I'm putting things in. And the one time that I seriously like really, really wanted to leave therapy, like we spoke about it. It was a process. We started a timeline. was actually right before one of the largest revelations of my life.

And I was like, oh, that was my unconscious saying like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And then it was, and for me, I needed that familiarity. But I sometimes wonder, maybe you wonder this, what if I were to walk into a new therapist's office and be like, hello, nice to meet you? And have them say, tell me about yourself. Like I sometimes wonder, it's like parallel universe. Would they be like, there's this, this, you know, like, would they find diagnoses that mine hasn't? That's what I just did. Right.

That's what I just did. Right. And it's not a pretty story. Why? There's a lot. Well, my therapist said to me last week, which I told you, which I don't usually report, she said, you know, Beverly, I am not going to normalize the kind of life you have. She said, that would be doing you a disservice.

She said, I'm not going to make life. of it, we're going to go deep with it, which I like, that's what I want. She said, but we're not going to be like, you had this, this, this, and that's normal. Because I had a lot of very traumatic things happen. And she said, and the fact that you're standing up and telling me and appearing so well, doesn't excuse the PTSD and the trauma you've been through. Do you feel seen by her? A hundred percent. Did you feel seen by your previous therapist? It was different. It was, there's a look there are good bakers there are good actresses there are people that really have profound insight and know how to take it out and and i look when i met them i said they

they all kind of remarked that i'm kind of very i'm very anxious to to go there i'm not hiding i'm not i love telling oh do you mean eager yeah i like telling all the i heard anxious i like telling all the dark things. I'm not scared about that. Here's a shoot, I was just going to say something. Oh, how old is your therapist would you say? You know, I'm so bad at that maybe 35. Oh, so how does it feel to see a therapist who is so much younger? Well, here's the thing. I'm sorry, I know you're only 45, but I feel like when people are studying the brain and your emotional age is irrelevant. Great. Age is irrelevant. And I really don't want What if she was 25?

Well, I... Like, is there an age at which you might be like, do they know enough? No, it's about their demeanor. Great. No, it's not about age. It's not about age. Here's an interesting...

I did find that I preferred a woman. I was just going to say, why? You know... What if she's a boyish woman? No. No. First of all, I only have women doctors now also because I think they know how to respect a woman's body. I feel like men...

Statistically speaking... You're probably right. Because of society, there's always going to be you're here, I'm here. A power differential. It's called the Patriarch. Now, I still want her to be in a position. I don't want to be on the same level as her. Right.

You want her to have more information than you and more knowledge. Absolutely. And every session, there are revelations. There are aha moments. They are like, she goes where, you know, she doesn't let me get away. Not that I'm trying, but she's really. You're a little squirly, Bev. It was a great experience. It was research. It was organized. You learned a lot of things. I did.

One more question. Is she Jewish? Do you know? It came out kind of by chance because I asked her, she was explaining her name. I said, can I write down your last name? It's a very long Russian name. And then she said to me, and she's not chatty about her. I wouldn't want her to be. But she said, it's a Russian name. And I'm Jewish, but I wasn't raised. Jewish, something like that. Was it important to you to have someone with your ethnic or cultural background? You know, I'm happy she has that understanding, but it wasn't essential. Mom, thank you so much for coming today. This was a little bit different. I'd like to thank my mom, Bev, for sharing such an intimate part of her therapy journey with us. And Jonathan, thank you for those questions from our

breakdown friends in breakdown, our breakers, as we called them. Those were great. Yeah, they were We're really good. Really good. I hope I did okay. Again, I am not a doctor. I mean, I'm a doctor of neuroscience, but I did my best. If people have complaints, send them to Jonathan. You can do so at the Instagram page.

At Biolic Breakdown on Insta. Follow it. Give us your questions. Let us know what you think. Tell us your favorite Bev moments from the past little while. And what you want to hear more of. All right. From our breakdown to the one we hope you never have.

We'll see you next time. It's my Bealic's Breakdown. gonna break it down for you she's got a neuroscience phd or two one fiction one and now she's gonna break