Mayim Bialik's Breakdown - Bob Odenkirk: Don’t Give Up Hope

Episode Date: October 17, 2023

Bob Odenkirk (Breaking Bad, Better Call Saul, Mr. Show) opens up about his recent near-death heart attack and the perspective it gave him, how he channels his fear, anxiety, and anger into his comedy, and how imposter syndrome has fit into the arc of his career. He breaks down the shame instilled into him throughout his Catholic upbringing, what it was like to watch his friends find fame before he did, and navigating his work ethic while still being around for his kids. Bob discusses the significance of the Hollywood strikes and the origins of his new book of poems he made with his kids. Bob’s daughter Erin joins the Breakdown to describe the creative process of working with her dad. NOTE: This episode was recorded before the Israel-Hamas conflict. Our hope is that MBB can be a positive distraction from what's going on in the world. Bob Odenkirk's new book, Zilot & Other Important Rhymes: https://a.co/d/7fDttFa BialikBreakdown.com YouTube.com/mayimbialik Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

To some extent, my work ethic, which you can say is, you know, appreciable, laudable, is also a cover for, you know, not being able to sit still. And I became very aware of that coming out of this experience of near death. When you just work, you sort of almost don't make memories, I think. if all you do is add to your list of to-do things and ask yourself every second of every day, what do I need to get done? What do I need to do? What am I not doing right now that I should be doing? And there are times in life when that's all you can do. If you have a kid with some medical problem, if you have financial challenges, there are times and years in people's lives where all they can do is just go,

I can't dwell on my life. I can't put some space in here. I can't meditate. I have to fix something else. I have to make something happen. And I understand that. But the heart attack really made me know that if you just live that way, you don't really live. It's like you weren't here.

It's my and be all next breakdown. She's going to break it down for you. Because you know she knows a thing or two. And now she's going to break. Hi, I'm I'm Biolik. And I'm Jonathan Cohen. And welcome to our breakdown, the place where we break things down, so that you don't have to. We're just trying to make it easy for you here.

Life is about simplicity. This is a big one today. This is a really exciting one. Who are we having, Jonathan? We are having, as a guest, one of the most recently iconic characters in modern television. I mean, that's a huge statement and it's entirely accurate. we're going to be talking to Bob Odenkirk. He's known for, I mean, better call Saul.

He is Saul. Saul Goodman. He originated that on Breaking Bad. He's also been in many feature films. But what you may not realize about Bob Odenkirk is, I mean, he wrote on SNL for years, The Mr. Show with Bob and David. That was him. Also, deep cut, get a life, if you like that Chris Elliott show.

Also, wrote on a recent guest show, The Ben Stiller Show. Bob is going to be here with his daughter talking about the book that they just wrote, Zillet and other important rhymes, which she illustrated. But we are first going to talk about all things Bob Oden Kirk, from his childhood in the Midwest, to his journey through comedy and his eventual, unexpected success, not just as a comedy actor, but as a dramatic one as well. He never imagined that he would be a dramatic actor.

It's really fascinating how he gets there. Let's get into it. Break it down. Well, thank you so much for being here. We're both huge fans of yours, and we are both parents of little ones. Well, I guess they're 15 now, but compared to your kids, they're little ones. And we're going to be talking with your daughter, Aaron. The book is Zillet and other important rhymes.

And I want to talk a little bit about it now, but then I want to talk about it with Aaron. I got really, really, I hope this is not a bad comparison. I got super strong Shell Silverstein vibes and where the sidewalk ends vibes. Oh, no, it's not bad at all. No, I mean, those books are the greatest. I mean, he's the master, really. It was at times challenging to go, are we trying to live in the same, you know, county that he oversees.

But when you understand the origins of our book, on some level, I couldn't, when you, when you enter an arena where there's these gods, Dr. Seuss and Shel Silverstein, you, it can be nerve-wracking to ask whether you'd have any right to join in. But I don't know, the origin of our book is so unique. We didn't just sit down and go, let's write kids' rhymes and who cares about Shell Silverstein. We love Shell Silverstein. And when my kids were little, we wrote these poems together.

Quite a few, actually. In this book that I wrote and made a cover of Old Time Rhymes in my awesome artistic way. Yeah, by Dad Nate and Aaron. Wow. And this is just filled with these loose pieces of paper. paper, many of which have three or four poems on them. And I knew that some of them were pretty good. Like just as a comedy writer, I knew that, like, there were like 10 or more that had, like,

a good concept, clever point of view, a couple good turns in them. And I always thought, well, I'll just keep it. I mean, I'll keep it. And one day, maybe I'll rewrite these, maybe when I'm a grandpa. You know, it'd be fun to add to it or just write more. And can I read one to you? Sure. These are that didn't make it into the book, okay?

Oh, yeah. It was a lot. Okay. And this, again, written with a kid. And I haven't read this in 20 years. A blimp flew over my head on the side was the name Ed in B. in big letters, it did declare the glory of Ed I hadn't been aware. But still, I wondered what's all the fuss?

Who's these Ed fell out? Someone tell me, let's discuss. Then someone tap me on the shoulder. It's Ed. It's my birthday. I'm one year older. So when my kids were little, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, they were two years apart.

So through those years, we would read a lot of books. and then I would say, let's write a poem because, Miami, you grew up in Hollywood? I mean, I started acting when I was, you know, in middle school. Did you grow up here or? My parents were transplants from the Bronx. So I say I was raised like it was the 1940s in the Bronx, but in Los Angeles.

Was it a hard thing for you to imagine yourself being an actor or being in show business? Because it was for me. It was really an overcome. even when I moved to L.A. after winning an Emmy, I still was like, I shouldn't be here. I don't, I don't, I don't, I'm not good enough. I don't belong in this. And I wanted my kids to think of themselves as the kind of people who might write a book one day. That's the whole impetus of sitting down to writing is, you know, when you read things,

even Zillet now in its final form is in, it's, It's such a nice book. It looks so professional. As a kid, you'd think that's, you know, that's for other people who are magical and gifted. And I wanted my kids to see a book on the shelf that they had written that was still stuck on the same shelf as Dr. Seuss, Shel Silverstein, everything else. That was the main initial drive of it.

Well, this feels like a really good place to kind of, um, you know, get a little more into sort of how you got here as their dad. And, you know, in addition to Zillet, Jonathan and I have been really, really getting so much from, I know it's not as current as Zillet, but your memoir, comedy, comedy, comedy, comedy drama. And, you know, one of the things you talk about, which you just sort of, you know, hit on is this notion of imposter syndrome. And, you know, it's something that many, many actors experience, many writers experience. But I think in particular, people who don't fit whatever mold has been established, I think in particular it can kind of, it can be a persistent, you know, a persistent thread.

And, you know, your story, both your, the way you talk about your childhood, you know, you're one of seven, which I think is already, you know, an opportunity for impromptuble. posture syndrome because when there's that many humans sort of slotting into the needs of a family, it can be very complicated. But your journey also, you know, Jonathan noted, you're kind of a late bloomer, you know, in each of the venues that you entered. So, you know, you come from the Midwest and kind of like this very classic Catholic, you know, Midwest, like absent dad kind of, you know, archetype. But, you know, your journey as a comedian, it's kind of like you tried to follow those grooves, right? Like, oh, people are doing stand-up. Like, let's do that. But that wasn't Bob Odenkirk's.

That wasn't where you were going to shine. It wasn't where you kind of were going to be. So then, you know, you ended up, I mean, Jonathan really wanted to talk about, like, this unbelievable meeting you had with Lorne Michaels, where you basically, you were like, I'm going to show up exactly as the person that I am and tell you that I think the show was much better when I was a teenager, which is kind of what we all said. I was right. You were right. No, you were right.

Arguably so. But, you know, and even still, you know, you write really beautifully about this journey of S&L, you know, that, again, for you, it wasn't, it was your thing when it worked. And when it wasn't, it was like, this is not my thing. And, you know, you end up being cast. you know, an actor, right? Like the thing that is really, really, really painfully, emotionally difficult to be, I mean, it's a life of rejection until you get that thing.

And that thing then led to you having your own show and fame in its own right as something that you weren't even setting out to imagine yourself doing. So it's kind of incredible that you come really full circle as a human to say, like, I'm going to give something of myself with my children that I'm going to put out into the world. So I know I just sort of like summed up your life in 45 seconds, but I wonder if you can talk a little bit about where imposter syndrome sort of lands in all of these arenas for you. Wow. But that's a huge arc and it's a very interior arc, you know, deep inside me. And one of the things you nailed is that this book, Zillet, and is really the most personal thing I've ever done.

There's no question to me that the second to that would be Mr. Show. Interesting, maybe, but this is like my heart on display and Mr. Show is my brain and my attitude on display and how I see the world. And of course, better call Saul and playing the emotional and deep. written, sensitively written, wonderful scenes that I was given, you have to mind your personal self and feelings and memories and hurts and traumas. You do go into that and you do share that on some level with people. But the most personal thing is this thing I've come to now, this book of kids rhymes. As far as imposter syndrome, yeah, it's,

There's a great, you know, comedians in cars. You've got to get a good Jerry Seinfeld. Have you done that? No, I would love to, though. Please put in a good word for me. Jerry's talking to Gary Shandling, and they're walking through the comedy store, and Shandling's like, and I'm up there.

I mean, why am I up there? Some kid from Arizona. And Gary's like, well, where the hell should you be from? Who cares where you're from? It doesn't mean anything. And that's imposter syndrome. right there. And it's so amazing to me that Jerry Seinfeld doesn't have it and never had it in his life. He just was like, what? Well, who do you think? And I think it goes to one of the things I was trying

to share with my kids by making this book, who do you think makes the world? Who do you think is going to be the comedians and the directors and the writers and the politicians and the teachers? And, well, you are. You are. You're going to be all those things. But the imposter syndrome is sort of having an inner, a genuine and inner belief that that's possible, that that is true, that you will be that. And the only question is, how good will you be at that when you get that chance? Or if, you know, when you put yourself in the place to get that chance, how good will you be? How prepared will you be? That's the only question you should be asking. How can I get more prepared?

But the other thing I think is you have to ask yourself, what do I love and what am I good at? Sometimes those things are not exactly the same. You know, you observe that I didn't really pursue dramatic acting. It sort of found me because I love sketch comedy so much. It still do. It's still my favorite thing. I just happen to be, maybe I think a little, I'm pretty good at that after a long time,

but I kind of have some instinct for the dramatic performance, especially if you've got a film camera, which is not quite the same as theatrical. Yeah, so I don't know what, you know, I say I have less imposter syndrome now, a lot less, but I still have it. And I don't know too many people who don't, but there are some who don't. There are. And they're interesting.

And oftentimes there are people who grew up around Hollywood. And so in their world conception, the person across the street is a writer, the person down the street is a director, the woman who babysat them is now on a TV show. So of course they think, well, yeah. I mean, everybody on my block?

What do you mean? Why is it? It's not special. It's just, it's hard to get those jobs, but it's not impossible. It's not, you don't have to be otherworldly. But when you grew up in the Midwest or most places, or I'm more like Shanley in that little story, I'm the guy going, I'm from Naperville, but you don't put, there's better people out there.

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And after you sign up, they'll ask how you heard about them. Make sure to mention Miami-Mialics Breakdown to help support the show. I think it's more detrimental for kids, young people, to think it is an impossibility to dream of being president, senator, famous actor, musician, it's more detrimental to think those things are pretty much impossible than it is detrimental to believe that they're easy and that you deserve that opportunity. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Well, and I think, you know, I can't help but go to the place that is conspicuously

missing from your book, which you acknowledge on page four, I believe, maybe page three and a half. when you say, do I have to keep talking about all of this, everything that you came from? And, you know, I know for me that imposter syndrome also resides in my brain in places where things feel impossible emotionally. Meaning that's like my, it's like where I go to, you know, when I can't imagine something different. I can't imagine a way out or even when you get success, there's always like, something looming of like, but what if, right? What if it all goes away? And, you know, there's a story you tell really in passing about, you know, your dad talking about financial problems that your family was having. And, you know, my father passed, gosh, almost 10 years ago. And, you know,

my parents were public school teachers and I did not grow up with a lot of means. And, you know, when I started having this experience of like being on TV, like I used to say that my dad would like tuck me in at night, you know, like, good night and be like, this could all disappear tomorrow. I just want you to remember. Like, you know, and it was like kind of funny. And my dad was a, he was a poet and he was a, you know, a tortured artist. And but, you know, it was this notion of like, don't get too comfortable.

Don't get too comfortable with joy. Don't get too comfortable with happiness. Don't get too comfortable. And, you know, for me, I come from like, you know, Holocaust. looming in the near distance. So there was a real kind of historical acuteness, but I cannot help but think about the way you describe your dad and the way you describe your mom and what you grew up in. And I wonder if you feel like growing up the way you did makes those fears loom larger. Or was it just for you because you were the sensitive artist and all of your siblings

have different lives? Like, I don't know. Oh, no. Everybody felt those fears. I'm the only one who told everyone about it. There's seven kids. The others kept their mouth shut. I think they all were warped and tortured and pained by the uncertainty of the house that we lived in and the feeling of things could go, you know,

just crack and break and fall apart any second. We also had a lot of laughs, and I think it's important to say that the gift, the greatest thing in my childhood was my brothers and sisters. There were seven of us. I was second oldest. We laughed constantly. We joked around. It was the place I think we put, I know I put all my fear and anxiety was, well, let's just joke around. And one of the things I loved about Monty Python when I hit on it was it seemed like a similar existential response to life and the uncertainties and challenges of life and humanity and human behavior. I mean, all comedy is some version of that. We're laughing at ourselves. But there was something about Python that spoke to. it said something about the adult world being at its core, hypocritical and stupid.

And that was a comfort. It was a great comfort to have another adult, well, I was 11 when I saw it, but have an adult, to me, they were 27 years old whenever they, when they made that show. But they were adults saying this is on a grand level and a deep level nonsense. and nobody knows what they're doing. And that was just greatly comforting. So we had a lot of laughs, but the fears and uncertainties were something we all shared as well.

And perhaps, listen, I'll tell you some other thing that I think weighs into this, and I'm not a psychotherapist, but there's a lot of shame when you grow up Catholic. At least, well, I think it's. It's pretty true. There's just shame, well, original sin, and you're constantly being told as a little baby and a kid

that there's Satan and there's God, and you're born in sin and you, you know, you are a shameful creature. You're built to be ashamed. And I think that that feeling of shame is just a immovable, you know, radiating sun inside me, radiating shame, that I have to navigate and push against. And so I think that's part of that.

You know, obviously in this career that we're in, we are asking for the spotlight to be on us. We want to present our things and share them with people. Well, that automatically feels extra painful. I don't know what you think the components of your childhood are, but I don't know how much you would weigh shame in there. Well, I mean, I'm, you know, a second generation American Jew. So it's like we do shame really well.

Yes, right? No, yeah. I mean, I think, well, I think there's two places that I kind of thought you were going to go with that. I was obviously not raised Catholic, but, you know, I was raised with very, you know, traditional kind of religious kind of structure, you know, surrounding what's right, what's good. And but the other thing is, you know, if you grow up in a home with the kind of conflict that, that you and I grew up in, there's also this sort of internalized, you know, something's wrong. and I have to go out into the world and either pretend that it's not,

or, you know, what many of us who are comedians do is not so much, you know, for me, comedy wasn't about forgetting. It was about getting approval that I couldn't get that same way in my home. And, you know, I discovered Monty Python and Faulty Towers. And, you know, I remember those were the things that everything in the house stopped for, you know, and I grew up, my brother listened to all the Steve Martin records, like, you know, your book detailed essentially the childhood that, you know, that I kind of followed. And there was something very, very particular about, you know, I think when people think of comedy

and they want to laugh and they want to have a good time, that's a different kind of comedy than the kind of comedy, let's say, that you're describing with Monty Python, which literally was a window into the depth of humanity that is so tragic. that you have to laugh at it. There's different kinds of comedy. And this guy, Jonathan, always wants to be like, let's watch something and laugh. And I'm like, I don't want to laugh.

I want to think, you know. And there's such different styles of comedy that you kind of go into. It's the line in your book that says something to the effect of, you know, great, all good comedy has anger in it. Yeah, that's from Eric Idol, actually, which I was so thankful I was able to crib that line

and attribute it to him because then people don't ask me to justify it, although I'll happily justify it. But he said it. He is the one who when he saw beyond the fringe, he said, as a college student, he saw that. And he said, wow, this was comedy, but it also had anger in it. And yes, isn't that amazing? And what you say about the meta, my, am, you, are you familiar with Tim and Eric Awesome show?

Yeah, and not as much as Jonathan is nodding his head. See, to me, that's another example of exactly what you're saying, the Get a Life, Monty Python, the meta-quality of the comedy. It's silly on its face, but additionally, as a viewer, you're very aware. I would say maybe not consciously aware, but subconsciously, almost consciously, right on the, it's just about over the edge, peeking over, that this is both being funny and making fun of the form, making fun of presentation itself.

And there's something you responded to, I responded to, that was another level, right? So we watched all those shows too. We watched the Mary Tyler Moore show. We loved Carol Burnett. I think Carol Burnett was a different beast as far as sketch comedy. goes because it was more about spending time with those people. It was like it was a group of people who

were clearly enjoying each other in a very warm way. And it was just a wonderful thing to be spent an hour of your week with some people who didn't hate each other. Well, and yeah, and when I think about sort of, you know, especially as a young female, you know, I loved Carol Burnett and Lucille Ball and Tracy Elman. Like those were, you know, those were, but it's true, those were very joyful comedians. I never really kind of saw myself like that, but physical comedy, you know, was a place that I found a bit of a home in terms of you can, and you talk about this, when you talk about Chris Farley, you talk about how physicality in and of itself can be funny, either at, you know, to a detriment of the person doing it or, you know, also as an elevation. I want to talk about, um,

You know, Jonathan pointed out this kind of thread of, you had to watch a lot of people get successful as you were kind of around them. And I wonder, like, I mean, obviously, you know, hindsight is 2020. But, you know, as an actor, you know, that's kind of like what you have to get used to. my thought is that like, oh, if you're a writer, like, you know that you're worth more because you're creating your own material. Whereas as an actor, it's just like, who wants to use this tissue? But what was that like for you? Like, do you remember, were there particular things that stung more?

Or was it just like, this is my life and this fucking sucks? No. Well, first of all, as much as I love the kids in the hall as friends, I wanted my own show, and they had their own show. And I was like, can I get, can you just give me one of your seasons? I don't know what I wanted. Can you guys just call me up and say, hey, they've given us another season. Do you want to just take it over?

You know what I mean? Like, I just want, I don't want them to not have a show. I want them to also have their show, but can I also have, I don't know, do they have extra money they're not using? But it's weird. I have a weird relationship to that. You are exactly right. I watched so many friends, Dana Carvey and Chris Farley and, of course, Adam Sandler and even Conan,

become, you know, huge around me. But I always had two feelings about showbiz that are unjustified. One that somehow I knew from a young age, they always need something else. Whatever's working right now, even if it's your best friend and now they're gone from your life because they're a big star,

which is another thing that happens. They go away because they enter another world. And that's just, that's the hardest part, is that you know, you won't see them much for a couple years.

Because they have work and their plate is very full, over full. That's the hardest part. is that you have to sort of say goodbye to your friend. You know that, and I always knew this, in a couple of years, when everything calms down, I will get to see them again.

I don't know why I knew that. I don't know. It doesn't really, I just knew that there's a rhythm to this business and it can work in your favor if you can be patient and calm. One, it always needs new things. So if you're not the flavor,

today and you haven't been the flavor and your ideas haven't gone over for the last five years, that doesn't mean year six won't be the year it turns. They always need something. What else have you got for me? And that's a great thing. You have to keep trying to get better at what you do or keep asking what is a better idea or the best way to make the most of what I'm, proposing, suggesting, idea, book, show, movie. You keep trying to be better at it, but things will hit over time.

I just knew that. And I also knew that when I said goodbye to my friend, because they suddenly appeared on the cover of Rolling Stone, which believe that, actually happened numerous times. And I was like, that's goodbye for five years, seven years, whatever. It's okay. I will miss them, but we'll see them again. And so I just knew those two things, and those are kind of great things to know that make you less jealous, less of a feeling of being left behind because, I don't know. I was always happy my friends did well, but there was just, like you say, a feeling of they are going away now. And as for the first, me, I never pursued the level of fame that I've been gifted by the opportunities that I didn't earn,

which number one being Saul Goodman. I mean, that, I, my, I don't, I did not deserve the opportunity to do that, and I certainly didn't deserve the wonderful writing in Better Call Saul. And I would read those scripts, Ma'am, and I would think, somewhere there's a Juilliard trained actor who is, you know, doing a commercial. I mean, is that not imposter syndrome? Like, I can't imagine anybody else besides you. I know, but I think it's legit.

I mean, yes, it is imposter syndrome, but it's true, too. I mean, it really is true that people, maybe I earned other things that I didn't get, Okay. But those scripts, that show, on one page, I would be doing almost pure comedy for two and a half pages. It's all in a cell phone store, you know, conning people, making a commercial. We had so much fun doing some of those scenes where it's just pure silliness. It's as close to sketch comedy as you can get without breaking the world and the logic of the world. And then, you know, four pages later, a beautiful interior scene that is utterly earnest that asks me as a performer to dig deeply into my own deepest pain and to share that in a quiet, contemplative way.

I mean, that's crazy. And that happened over and over. I would pick up scripts and be like, page 12, I'm doing comedy. Page 30, I'm doing, you know, this deeply painful, utterly honest drama. And then, you know, maybe a romantic scene, a quiet, you know, simple. Actually, in the end, the scenes I love so much and thank the writers for so much were the scenes that were just two people. just trying to navigate. Me and Ray Seahorn, she played Kim Wexler,

the romantic, you know, partnership they had, those simple scenes that felt a little bit more like, it's just time passing as these two people share a journey together. Those were my favorite scenes in the end. They're beautiful scenes. They're just so moving, and they ground everything else in the show so so nicely. Like, yeah, I can understand that.

But also, you know, I can't help but note that that didn't exist when you started auditioning. That didn't exist when you were writing. That didn't exist when you were in the rooms of SNL because television was so different. I mean, when I was a teenager, there were three networks and then came along Fox, right? And it's like, what is this fourth network, right? Yeah, this is never going to work. Right. It was a completely different industry.

And so also the notion that shows like Breaking Bad, you know, were this sort of golden era of television where we were saying, oh, we actually want more, you know, from our media. You know, it used to be that, you know, when I finished working on a sitcom, I was on a sitcom for five years, you know, that finished when I was 19. And it was like, no one will hire you because you were on a sitcom. So you need to go away. And it's true. And now you have like movie actors, right? Like, oh, I'll do a little run on this sitcom. So I think that's also, I mean, if you don't mind me waxing poetic about your career,

it's kind of like where you ended up, it had to be created for you to thrive in it. Yeah. Because it simply did, like the industry could only hold you in these small compartments, you know? And it wasn't until like the industry created this opening where it's like, oh, there's a place for someone with your intelligence, your comedic timing, and your heart. And that's what made you the comedian you were, was your anger and your pain. And now here is a vehicle where you get to shine in all of it because that's what we deserve to see. You're right.

The business fundamentally changing made it even possible at all. And it wasn't something you could imagine. I guess there was, you know, some wonderful writing in feature films and in plays when, you know, in yesteryear. But it's, it is amazing how, you know, it's, there's just some, the landscape of shows and podcasts and, you know, feature films. Everything has spread wide in a great way. a great way. And I'm the beneficiary of that. I got very lucky.

But honestly, you understand what I'm saying where like, it's one thing to get to be the lead in a show, and that happens, and it almost always feels like a gift and a magical lottery win for anybody. I think the layering, the levels of writing, the quality that I was gifted and handed is the part that

I think it's a justified imposter syndrome. Like you do not deserve this. Oh, well, what are you going to do? Go do your best. That's how you pay it back is value it. You know? I'm really interested in your work ethic in

particular. And I want to start here and then ask you a question working backwards. There's a really cool towards the end of your comedy comedy comedy drama. Yeah. You know, you have this notion, like even after Breaking Bad, which as you described was kind of,

you know, it was sort of sporadic, meaning it wasn't an every day all day, you know, this is where I go, this is where I live, you were kind of dropped in in these like beautiful, you know, nuggets. But when you moved into, oh, this is my vehicle and this is my full-time existence, it's almost like you didn't even know the question to ask and you talk about. about this conversation you had with Brian Cranston. And you said, you were like, I don't really get, like, what do you do? And there's this really awesome conversation, which I relate to so much. And what it was was basically he told you, like, you get up early. You know, you prepare and you

get there early to set. And at lunch, you run your lines and then make sure you have something to eat. like ask craft service to like make you a sandwich so that you can basically keep going, you know, through the end of your day and go home and learn your lines for the next day. And then you said to him, like, what about weekends? And he was like, oh, you basically study all the way to the airport on the plane,

try and relax as much as you can. But like, this is your life, you know? Yeah. And the way you summed it up, you said, so you basically, so basically you learn lines, rehearse, act, eat some food, learn lines, act again, cram some more food down your pie hole, learn lines, fall asleep, and on weekends you don't stop working. And he said, yeah. And he said, work all the time, and you'll be able to do it. And I thought, like,

it's both like, it's funny and it's also very true, and it's why we go away. It's why people lose us, because if you want to keep it going without cocaine, and you literally, you know, you're like, and then I did cocaine. You know, if you don't want to use that as your vehicle, that is the formula. You cannot have a social life. I mean, you can barely be an active partner and parent, right? And I see that you have. And I want to kind of get to where that led you.

But that's the work ethic that you ended up kind of arriving at. And I don't mean to be like, why did you do cocaine? But also I'm very interested not for, you know, not for salacious reasons, but I'm very interested in how that work ethic, you know, as an adult, as a parent, how that operates for you. Like what were those years like? It was hard. It was conflicting to me. I mean, it felt like I, there's no way I could be a good dad if I was working. that hard in another city. And my wife, you know, luckily my kids were a little older, 13 and 15 at the time that I started that job.

And they both, as I share in the book, were part of the decision. As much as a kid can be a part of it. Whenever people say that, my kids told me it was okay. It's like, yeah, well, they were kids. You just said the word kids. So what do you mean? You know, but as much as they could be seemingly aware of what they were agreed.

agreeing to, they said, you should do this, Dad. You should go do that opportunity. And my wife, who is in the business and who does know how shit works, said, do it if you'd like. You don't have to. If you say, no, I won't, you know, either way, do whatever you want. We'll make it work if you want to do it. But there's, in my mind, having come from a family where my dad wasn't around and my mom was an awesome person, But, you know, just at the edge of her abilities to keep things going, it felt like I was probably not doing the right thing. But maybe there could be some good lessons as the kids got older and had to be a little more self-sufficient. But honestly, it felt like this could really explode everything. thing, my marriage, my family,

um, me. But also, you know, I don't know. It was a tough choice to make. And I feel like generally it worked out great. I think if the kids had been a little bit younger, it would have been a bigger damage,

a greater damage to my family. But it was hard. It was hard. I mean, when you don't see your partner and you're not helping, you know, those years are still a lot of work. Obviously, little kids is just tons of work. But when you get into the teen years, it's still a lot of work. Driving around and school functions and, you know, you just want to be there. When I would come home, I would make a point of not having an office.

I wouldn't leave the house. when I would come home for a couple months at a time because those writing preparation would take months for Better Callsall Seasons. One of the reasons it took so long to shoot that show. But I would sit in the living room where everyone was walking by and I would sort of make that my desk.

So I was like, when I'm home, I'm going to be real easy to find. And I'm going to say yes to everything. If I, you know, something at Temple Israel, my kids' school, something, whatever it is, I'm there, I'm going to drive them, I'll show up. If they need a parent, I'll do it. And otherwise, I'm sitting here. If you, you know, I said, I want my kids to, if you ask my kids, where's your dad right now, they can tell you. He's sitting on the couch in the living room. He's got books. He's got his computer. He's got notepads. And he's just, and he's just, just sitting there. Or he's walking the dog. Those are the two things he's doing. I know where he is. And I'm going to see them. They're going to walk in front of me to go to the kitchen. They got to walk through this room. And so I'm going to hopefully be able to see what's going on, help them be a part of their lives. But it was a tough call. And it worked out, I'd say,

overall? And, you know, obviously it tugs at my heartstrings also when I think about how you write about your dad. You know, one of the things you said is like, he was never there. And like in my head, I was like, where, where was he, you know? But I get it. Like, and so the notion also of that being such a conscious decision, you know, is really touching, especially for us as working, you know, we both are divorced, but, you know, as working parents, especially, and ours are 15 and I also have an 18-year-old you know, not to like further tug at the heartstrings, but you had a near fatal heart attack recently. And, you know, when I think about your work ethic, obviously, people have heart attacks for all sorts of reasons. But I wonder, did that slow you down? Did it feel like,

oh, this is, you know, my body forcing me to shift? It was as major as it could be without dying. that's the truth I mean if Rosa Estrada had not been there to do CPR and get her AED out of the trunk of her car if she hadn't been there

I would not be here right now or if I was here I wouldn't be talking in a way that made sense and and yet it was minor in that I disappeared mentally. I was not there. I did not go through. I didn't see a light. I didn't go through a traumatic emotional journey. I just went away and I came back a week later and I sort of slowly came back over the next couple months. The biggest thing it's made me

question is something you brought up earlier and it is my work ethic. To some extent, my work ethic, which you can say is, you know, appreciable, laudable, is also a cover for something, you know, not being able to sit still. And I became very aware of that coming out of this experience of near death, of, when you, when you just work, you sort of almost don't make memories, I think. If all you do is add to your list of to-do things and ask yourself every second of every day, what do I need to get done? What do I need to do? What am I not doing right now that I should be doing? And there are times in life when that's all you can do. If you have a kid with some medical problem, if you have financial challenges, there are

times and years in people's lives where all they can do is just go, I can't dwell on my life. I can't put some space in here. I can't meditate. I have to every second go do something else. I have to make something else fix. I have to fix something else. I have to make something happen. And I understand that.

But the heart attack really made me know that if you just have to just. live that way, you don't really live. You don't really, it's like you didn't do any. It's like you weren't here. It's weird. It's like you were a machine or a, you're like a motorcycle that went through life. And was that? I didn't see them go by. I just heard them. So I've thought a lot about that and I've thought a lot about how do I slow down and take things in. Now, also, I have that gift because of financial security. But even everybody has to confront that, I think, and I think that that was the perspective that that incident gave me. I want to give a shout out to the work you're doing through the MTPF fund, the Union Solidarity Coalition,

you and David Cross are auctioning off a dinner on eBay, which I think the bidding is, well, the bidding is quite pronounced as of now. But I wonder if you can just speak a little bit to the importance and the significance of the strike, which has recently ended. But in terms of the work that you believe, you know, is so important to emphasize for people who may not know a lot about labor or why writers strike and things like that? Yes. My comment to people would be, yes, it's true, I don't need money. You're right. But I also know what it's like to make a living as a staff writer, which I did for many years. And I have many, many friends who are staff writers. show runners, and I've done shows, and I interact closely with the writers because I come from

writing. So I know that that life has gotten harder and harder over time, as it usually does, but also it's been exponentially made harder by streaming and by payment formats that have been warped by the changes in the industry and time. So we needed to strike to reset the structures by which people get paid so that that life that I lived many years ago and for many years and that so many of my friends and even family members work in is a viable life that you can make enough money to, you know, raise your kids and have a house and pay for groceries. And we needed to do this strike. I know it's, when people hear the numbers that fly around regarding Hollywood, they think everyone's a millionaire. Everyone is not a millionaire. And a lot of the

wonderful stuff you see written is by staff writers and they need these supports and structures. And the same goes for actors. And my, you've, you've seen the stories. You've, you've seen the stories. guys of people who've been guest actors, you know, five times in a year, and then they don't have enough, they haven't made enough to have their insurance, which is crazy. Because if you're a guest, if you're an actor who's getting guest starring roles, you're damn good. You're a pro. And if you're getting that many in a year, you should easily be able to meet the level, the bar, of getting your insurance by SAG. So now we have to carry on the strike

and get new structures in place for actors as well. It was a crucial strike. We needed to do it, and I'm thankful that we made the gains that we've made. Thank you. I appreciate you clarifying that. I think a lot of people have been emboldened to kind of say the things that people used to not say out loud, and I think the Internet has helped people do that.

It'd be like, you're making your living as a cloud. What do you expect? And like, how are people supposed to pay their rent if the writers are striking? And I understand those perspectives. I hear them a lot. But I do appreciate you talking about the fact that this isn't an industry. It's— My, I totally agree.

Tons of people were so punished by this strike. The AMPTP should never have made a strike for this long. They should have, the things that they gave on were the things that we talked about from day one that they said, we will never, ever, ever give in on any of those things. Why did they make this strike take so long? I think that they had ulterior motives, you know, to want the industry to reshape itself by going through this pain. That's the only, you know, the only reason I can think that the AMPTP decision. decided to let the strike go this long. And in the course of that, they punished so many people in other industries. I don't know why they let it, why they were okay with that.

I don't think it ended because Yom Kippur was coming. I think it ended because people wanted their Drew Barrymore back. But anyway, were you ever my waiter at Ed DeBevics? Because I went there a lot. Oh, in Chicago. I was in Chicago. You were in Chicago. I probably was in the Chicago one at one point. Oh, then maybe. I used to go to the one out here. It was sort of the place where a lot of us, before drugs became the thing that all of the Hollywood kids did, we used to hang out at Ed DeBevix.

Oh, that was much healthier. You know, one of the things that has, I guess, you know, happened since your heart attack, you know, is this really beautiful creative project that both of your children have contributed to. But in particular, what strikes me about this book is how beautiful it is visually. And you apparently have raised a very talented artist.

Erin, welcome to our breakdown. Hi. Erin, I was saying that we were talking a bit about your dad's heart attack and work ethic and, you know, some of that sort of mental shift of, you know, what it's like to focus on other things and things that, you know, bring joy and peace. And this book, Zillet, is a product of obviously your childhood and your brothers. But one of the things that is most striking about this book is visually how beautiful it is. And you clearly are a really talented artist, but also you put such care and thought into illustrating these poems.

And I guess I'd like to know, when did you start drawing? you know, for those of us with children, we're like, how do we get our kid to be like Aaron? That's so sweet. Thank you. I kind of have drawn my whole life. I used to love drawing our cats. And I loved reading cartoon things like the mutts and the peanuts. Those were super easy, like easy reads for a young kid

that inspired me to maybe make my own characters and have a simple cartooning stuff. that is approachable when you're that age. But I took this really awesome art class when I was young called Wizard of Art here in Los Angeles. And their method is that they set you up with everything you need and then they don't bother you. They just walk around the room and they give you advice and pointers

that are appropriate for your age and your skill level, but they don't like tell you what to do. And that was always like a really frustrating thing as a kid, but also I think something like, that helped me grow into myself as an artist. And I can't help but, you know, but marvel at the fact that, you know, Bob, you essentially, you know, your wife is in the industry.

And, you know, you have so much input. She has so much input into sort of work life. And so I also see this book as sort of an extension of an ethic that it seems like your family has, I don't want to say perfected, but has kind of gotten down because there's something to working together that can be really problematic. but also really beautiful things can come out of it.

And I think this book is an example of that. I wonder if you each can speak to if you had to interact a lot or if it was kind of like the poems were their own thing and then Aaron got to do her illustrations or if there had to be collaboration in the family. It is hard to collaborate within a family, Maya. I think you guys both know that. Do you know that?

I mean, my wife is a manager and a producer. She is extremely opinionated. She is very intelligent. She has tons of experience, so her opinion matters and is usually really spot on and smart and definitely should be listened to every single time. But also, as an artist, you're discovering something. You need some room to grow before it's criticized. And so it's a given take that we've figured out, I think, good and well enough over the last 26 years.

as a couple. And then with the kids, it's a similar thing, you know. And it's one of the things I was trying to show them is, and by the way, my son, Nate, wrote about 10 of these poems. He's a comedy writer. So I didn't want to call the book, Zillet and other important rhymes, by the Odin Kirk's. I felt like people just, I thought they would appreciate more that I led the way and that my daughter, she did the illustrations, no one else did them. And I just didn't want to credit the whole family,

but everyone did contribute and we did find a way to comment on that. It's tough. All I can say is it's tough. You know, a lot of couples in America have businesses together. And so they have to, you have to figure out the way forward. I mean, one of the reasons that it's hard is whether you're a parent or a sibling or a part of a couple, you want your partner to care about how you feel about the project, not about the project itself. And that can be hard when you're doing the project together. It's like two separate questions. Aaron, how are you feeling about your artwork and about the project and the work? Or, Aaron, what do you think of this one specific drawing? And here's my critique of it. You know, as a writing partner, it was great to have him so close, but as a dad, it could have

been, you know, a little bit overbearing at times. And I think part of what helped was seeing them as different modes. I think he was talking earlier about the love you need from a writing partner and the critique you need from writing partner and then the love and critique you need from family or from people who are close to you as sort of being different things and finding ways to find them both in the same person. And I, one of the, maybe one of the signs of that relationship developing is me starting to call him Bob in emails and even in person sometimes around other people, around our editors and stuff as like, that's, we're working together.

This is how I feel about something, Bob. And then maybe we go out for coffee after. like, so, do you think of the meeting, Dad? How was it for you? But yeah, it was, I mean, ultimately a great experience. What did you learn about Bob from working with him that you didn't know about him as dad? I learned that he can get, I think that as dad, when he says something that he's, that sounds like he means it, I really believe it as like a truth that he holds to be true and one maybe that I should hold true also. But I saw when we were working together often he would feel one way really strongly about something and then within five or ten minutes kind of fold on it a little bit. Not that he was

totally wrong, but just that it took him a while to maybe see like a different perspective on it. And that was super enlightening both as his daughter and as a work partner. I have a personal question and then we'll let you go. my kids don't watch me on TV. They are annoyed by it. They think it's ridiculous. Like, they don't. They always freaked out when people would recognize me.

They used to, like, my little one used to cry because it was like, why are people talking to my mom? And people always assumed that, like, they watch the Big Bang Theory or like all this stuff. And they didn't. I'm curious. Do you, like, have you watched your dad? Is it weird? Like, is it like, that's my dad? Why is he acting like that?

It's both. Yeah. It took me a while. I didn't start watching stuff until I was like 13 or 14, kind of because of the appropriateness of it, but also just because of my own desire. I think for a long time it was difficult for me to see him as an actor and not just as my dad on a screen in a funny outfit saying something like he would say it if he was happy. and it wasn't maybe until I was a bit older and we were kind of further into Saul that I started to be able to see him playing this character

with such reality that I felt the character and not just my dad. But that's a really unique situation to have and a unique perspective. And it, yeah, ultimately it doesn't turn me away from things. it's more just like, oh, my dad's on screen. It doesn't feel like I see the character, is what I'm saying. Yeah, no, that makes sense.

That was really more just for me personally because I remember when my kids realized that I could do accents, just because that's something that some actors do. And so they used to have me read their bedtime stories in, like, different accents. But I don't think they connected that, like, my mom's an actor. That's why she does this. They were just like, oh, she's useful to make us laugh.

So I think there's like, it's almost like there's other skills besides me being on television that are more interesting to them. Anyway, I was just curious. I agree. Well, Erin, we wish you only good things with Zillet and all of the other incredible things that I'm sure you'll do. But really, as someone who also grew up reading comic books, and I was raised on Arkram and all those artists, I really appreciated the specific artistry. And you clearly have a really great catalog of an understanding of both comic and sort of also just beautiful illustrative work. So thank you.

Great compliment. Thank you so much. It's really been such a pleasure. we recommend Zillet and other important rhymes. If you have children, if there's a child in you that still wants to laugh and dream and and create, please get Zillet and other important rhymes. It's been really such a pleasure to talk to you. We think you're awesome for everything about you that people see and even the things that people don't.

So thank you so much. Thank you. Myam, thank you. Jonathan, thank you. Worry juice. I've been using up my worry juice. The tank is running low. if I keep gushing over little things,

I'll have no juice left to show. So I'm going to pat my little worries on the head and give them a nap. Then when there's something big to worry about, I'll have juice left on tap. That's great. I mean, this book is, it is. It's very adorable.

The fact that he wrote it with his kids is the cutest thing ever. And the fact that, like, his daughter illustrated it is just, it blows my mind. And it's, I just, I was very touched by speaking. speaking to him and also speaking to his daughter. I loved what he said about wanting his children to feel like they're the type of people who could have a book published.

And what I got from it is that he just, it's all about the creative process, you know. It's, yes, it's like, oh, they could be the type of people who have a book published, but also like the work of publishing a book is actually in sitting down and writing. And so he trained them or he encouraged them to know what it is to like, sit down and be creative. But it's like an extension of his whole career, right? You just like, you keep going. You sit down, you do the work. You put it down. If it's not working, you rework it. You enjoy what you're doing in some way and have it be meaningful. Like it really is full circle. Totally full circle. And there's something about getting them to do the work. It's like less about,

oh, there's a book published on the shelf and more, you know, you deserve to be heard. Your ideas deserve the attention. Can you imagine working with your child on a book? I think he would, I think the creative collaboration would be, would be a challenge because I think he would want to, you know, I don't know that he would believe that it was going anywhere. Oh, if I gave my kids a deadline, it would be over. They'd be like, I'm not doing this. You boss us around all the time. And there was a publisher involved, so like I wanted to ask Aaron, was there a workback schedule? You know, like, what happened if she missed a deadline? Did he creative direct? Did he give notes online? like the different drawings.

He's like, you know, this dog, I would like to see the tail an inch and a half longer. It's really, I'm also, I hope, and, you know, he's not asking me, but I kind of wish he would publish, like, a facsimile copy of the old-time rhymes because, not just because I'm curious about the ones that didn't make it in, but I'm so curious how they changed or evolved over time. I mean, I wrote some, like, I wrote songs and poems for my kids. that's like sometimes I'll still sing just to like, you know, make them laugh. But, you know, if I had to actually publish them, I would really want it to change and be more refined. And anyway, she's an incredibly talented artist.

And I'm very curious to see what she also chooses to do with her life. I also love that his son, you know, is a writer as well. And just what an interesting family. I mean, it's for anyone who knows about the Glass family that J.D. Salinger concocted, I kind of think of the Odin Kirk's as a modern-day glass family. We didn't ask Bob what he learned about Aaron working with her that, you know, was outside of her being his daughter. Well, the way that he was watching her speak and practically mouthing the words with her,

like the best stage dad ever indicated that they clearly have a very well-fleshed-out relationship. And while he didn't go into necessarily tremendous detail about his childhood, you can see he's doing a lot of reparative work. It's really beautiful as a father. So very, very pleasantly surprised. We've spoken to a lot of comedians, and I kind of thought he'd have like a real surly edge to him, but he was a really, really gentle, really gentle guy. And I just feel really, really lucky that we got to hear such interesting insight from him.

There's a couple things that really hit me in that interview. The first was his notion that Hollywood or even I took it to be the world always need something new. And if you're not the flavor of the week or the month or he said even the year or the last five years, the sense of optimism and calm he had in that to not be like, take it personally, to not be like, oh, there's something defective in me because all my friends are getting these massive opportunities and I grew up with them and when is my turn? There seemed to be like a divine sense of serenity in that that I wanted to ask him like, where did that come from?

You just always knew that. There wasn't a ping ever. And like, I don't know, there was a sense that he was maybe a little polished towards the positive. But like, I'm curious, like, did it always feel like that to him? Did he always have that knowing? Or was there a moment where it was like some of those, you know, tougher feelings of jealousy or when is it my turn, you know, would come.

But he had like the sense of calm and serenity that I was really interested to understand more about. Yeah, I think also there's for writers like that, They are used to creating beauty for other people, meaning, you know, the work that he did with Chris Farley and, you know, like the work that he did with those kind of comedians, like you live in the shadows in a lot of ways. And many of those kinds of writers, they're never seen, you know, the way they want to be seen. So I think that, you know, the beauty and his memoir, which is entitled comedy, comedy, comedy drama, you know, it shows like you keep chipping away at it and you keep chipping away at it. And other things will be. come. You had one of the most, I think, beautiful summations of his career trajectory as it related to the evolution of TV's history and like the development of, you know, the golden era of television. And what struck me about that was hearing in the book how he started in stand-up comedy and kind of knew that he didn't fit there. And, you know, he was, you know, He described it as there was a lot of polo shirt guys doing observational comedy that didn't have the edge that he had.

And he also wasn't as extreme as some of the guys who would come on and sort of, you know, like a Sam Kinnison was probably before his time. But like that level of edge where it was, you know, shock. Explosive. Explosive. And so he didn't fit in either of those realms. And so he didn't see himself. And when I was reading about the evolution of his comedy writing and like Mr. Show and the Ben Stiller show and he's like trying to find him. himself, but like none of those are like the types of hits. He calls, you know, a lot of his

success like cult classics where they're successful and appreciated by the people in the, in the community after the fact, but not necessarily big commercial success. And then to hear, like, he just continued to become more of himself. And then the world changed. Totally. So that the version of him that he became had a place. And there was these two parallel trajectories. One is the world changing. One is him not trying to be something that he's not. Even while all of his contemporaries are finding their place in the world, he is almost not finding his true place in the world.

And to me, that was like, I don't know, it hit me so viscerally because you just continue to be yourself and discover over and over again who you are. And even when all signs point to that there is no place for you in the world, he continued to become himself. And then the world had a spot for him. I mean, it's... Outside of a timeline that he wanted necessarily... But you know what? It's not dissimilar from when I think about Jonathan Cohen.

Oh, do tell it. Do I get a summation like that? I would like a summary to the level of Bob Odenberg summary. One of the things that you, you know, excel in in your non-breakdown life is you see things before they happen. And there's actually a job for that. It's called being a futurist. And there have been many times that I have seen and I have witnessed, you know, a kind of intellectual and creative foresight. And, you know, while I don't know that Bob Odenkirk is tapping into the universe in the same ways that you are, I think it's really interesting that

sometimes that is how things evolve. Very interesting. I actually think Bob Odenkirk is tapping into a sense of the universe and that he may not attribute it to that or he doesn't necessarily articulate it like that. But I found that his calm and centeredness now and his presence of mind to not try to be something that he wasn't and to constantly navigate towards. Because you can get lost in that in that on. That's what I mean is that, you know, it's so easy to be like, oh, these polo shirt guys are being, are having the success that would keep, you know, food on my table. Right. But he's like, I'm not that. Right. And, you know, these more extreme comics are like breaking through and, you know, getting headlines.

And that would put food on my table. But I'm also not that. And to just constantly navigate towards, well, what am I? Even when what I am is not clear to him, maybe? Because, you know, as he said, like, there was no version of a better call Saul character that existed. And like that level of foresight, that little moment that he had is, of I will be the most engaging person in a drama.

Or talking about how the better call Saul scripts and even the Breaking Bad scripts, there would be like two and a half lines of comedy, then drama, then like these tender scenes, like that mixture never existed. And so to just continue to hone something in the absence of an outlet, because that's truly what he was. Yeah. I think is a sign we can. all live by. One of the most patient men in Hollywood, I would say, Bob Odenkirk. Amazing. Yeah.

All right. Follow us on Bialic Breakdown. On Instagram. Follow us on Instagram at Bialik Breakdown. Subscribe to the YouTube channel if you haven't like. Do that. Why haven't you subscribed yet? This is a fun one to watch. Actually, he's got a lot of emotion in his storytelling. So yeah. Let us all be patient and find ourselves. Yes. And from our breakdown to the one we hope you never have. We'll see you next time. to break it down for you she's got a neuroscience phd or two one fiction one and now she's gonna break down