Mayim Bialik's Breakdown - Break Free from Destructive Patterns, the Real Reason You Feel Stuck & How to Protect Yourself from Toxic People, with Mel Robbins!

Episode Date: January 14, 2025

Mel Robbins' Mind-Blowing Secrets on Mindset to Feel Better Emotionally & Spiritually!    Learn How to Regulate Your Emotions in a Foolproof Way & Stop Letting Toxic People Control You: Is It Time to CUT THEM OFF?   Mel Robbins, the mindset, motivation, & behavior change expert, reveals life-altering insights on how to Take Control of Your Emotions, Reprogram Your Brain, & Step into a Life of Power and & Opportunity!    Mel's Life-Changing "Let Them" Theory – The Key to Boundaries & Peace! Struggling with difficult people? Learn to identify what’s truly in your control and what isn’t in a nanosecond, empowering you to let go of unnecessary stress and set healthier boundaries—especially with narcissists. STOP the internal struggle of feeling "stuck" & uncover the false narratives that keep you trapped in emotional turmoil.   Mel also shares tips to Unlock the POWER of Your Brain to Attract Success & Mystical Experiences! Her unique perspective on science & spirituality will help you make sense of this cruel world while leading a simpler, more fulfilled life.   The Secret to Controlling Your Emotions: Ride the Wave! Want more power in your life? Mel explains how to take control of your emotions & influence others—This simple technique will make you more powerful than even the most challenging person!   Mel Robbins also breaks down: - Why People Get STUCK in Cycles of Abuse & How to Break Free - Why pressuring others to change NEVER works - Why Pain & Hardship Are ESSENTIAL for Your Kids' Growth - Why "Death is Another Birth": Her Unbelievable Experience with a Psychic Medium - Faking her way through law school as she struggled with ADHD & dyslexia - How she copes with her busy brain - Why she’s driven to show up for others thanks to her experience as a public defender   This is an episode you don’t want to miss—prepare to unlock the secrets to your best life!    Mel Robbins' latest book, THE LET THEM THEORY: https://www.melrobbins.com/letthemtheory   BialikBreakdown.com YouTube.com/mayimbialik Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

For anybody that feels stuck or tired or you're last on your list, I got news for you. You're not the problem because when you do things out of guilt, you turn other people into the villain. When you do it because it makes you feel like a good person or because it matters to you, you're now owning the power. And that changes everything. Anytime somebody pisses you off or stresses you out or you feel overwhelmed or stuck, you're going to say, let them. It stops something stupid from draining your energy. you feel instant peace because it's the ultimate boundary. And when you say let them, you're not allowing somebody to hurt you.

You're actually taking a step back and you're recognizing what is happening. The power is not in trying to change what this person is doing. The power is saying let them and detaching from what that person is doing. The moment you let adults be adults, you're going to be struck by how much time you actually have. Hey, I just found out something astounding. Approximately 63% of those of you listening to, or watching Myambialy's Breakdown are not subscribed. We know you're listening and we know you're watching because of all of the awesome comments you leave telling us how Myambiolx Breakdown is helping

you lead a happier and healthier life. We love that. But the best way to support our show is to subscribe. It's also the only way to get latest updates and to know when new episodes drops. So anywhere that you listen to podcasts and on YouTube, please subscribe, hit the bell icon so that you know when a new episode drops. Thank you so much and on to the episode. Hi, I'm I. I'm Bialik. I'm Jonathan Cohen. And welcome to our breakdown. This is the place we break things down so you don't have to. Today is the first episode that we are filming with my new hair. I just need to say that. It's very curly. So I don't want anyone being like, what happened? I cut my hair. New do, new you. New do, new me. Pretty spectacular episode we have for you

here today. Now, I know we say this a lot. Like, this is a great episode. However... This episode went totally differently than Mime had planned. This guest just sat down and all of a sudden we were in a different direction. The conversation started and like, I don't even know how to describe it.

Well, the best way to describe it is if you've ever tried to change someone and it hasn't worked, guess what? We know why. Also, if you feel stuck, if you feel purposeless, you feel lost, if you're struggling, if you're anxious. How about if you're an adult who's still having temper tantrums and you don't know how to get

out of that cycle? If you want to learn how to regulate your emotions in a way that most people have never been taught to do. Do you know how to ride an emotional wave? Most of us don't. If you're wondering if cutting off your parents is the answer to your problems, if breaking up with that person, leaving that relationship, ending that friendship, is the right solution.

Don't do anything until you listen to this episode. Also, how do you program your brain to notice more synchronicity, to program your brain to see things in a happier light, a more optimistic light, to find opportunity? We are talking to none other than Mel Robbins. If you don't know who she is, you have to know who she is. The book that we're going to be talking about is the let them theory, a life-changing tool

that millions of people can't stop talking about. People are having this tattooed on their bodies. There's an entire collage in the book of all the different kinds of tattoos people have gotten

that say, let them. We're going to find out how let them can transform literally any decision, any stuckness you're feeling, but we're also

going to get to know a very different side of Mel Robbins. She cries more than once in this episode. She shares a very, very personal experience where she received guidance from the universe in a way that is really profound.

We talk about trauma, and I actually wasn't even sure if this book would get us there. It gets us all the places. Trauma, narcissism, her own personal struggles with ADHD and dyslexia, how she felt like a failure, how her whole life literally turned around in the last 15 years, and she's become one of the leading thinkers in this space and many other spaces she never thought she'd be allowed into. The conversation kind of starts in the middle of something, but please enjoy Mel Robbins

as we welcome her to the breakdown. Break it down. Okay, so I was hosting a daytime talk show at CBS Broadcast Center right before COVID. Okay. And the backstory is my son had massive dyslexia. And our daughters are like,

there's no fucking way he can go to the public high school. And so I had said to him, because he had It bounds from elementary to a school for language-based learning to then a tiny private school. Miserable. You can choose any high school you want. I thought he would choose something in Boston. Right. It's like, I think I want to go to the high school where grandma lives.

Like, that's in Vermont. You know we live in Boston, right? And so we fought and fought and fought and fought and fought. And it ended as a gigantic no and all of us crying in the front of the house. So a couple weeks passed, and I'm on my set at CBS Broadcast Center, and they have brought in this medium. Do you normally talk to mediums? I love it, and I'm looking for the play here, right? How do you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And since our talk show was not successful, the audience was filled with homeless people that we paid. And so I knew who all the, you know, they were all there, but, you know, we didn't have an audience, so she's not doing a background check. Right. Meanwhile, I told nobody about what was going on. So she comes out and she just got chills already. And she looks like, like imagine you've walked into J. Jill and you have a lovely person that comes and helps you. This is what sensible boots.

Right. Long cardigan. Bob, sensible. And so she explains that I guess she was electrocuted when she was a little kid and she woke up in the hospital. We've had people on this show who have extrasensory. abilities that develop after, specifically from lightning strikes. No kidding. Okay, so keep going.

So she wakes up and her dead relatives are around her bed in the hospital. I want to talk to this woman. I don't want to talk to you. I don't blame you. She's way more interesting. So she realizes she has this ability to communicate with people that have died. And she's had it her whole life. And I'm like, so there's, do people have dead people?

She's like, oh yeah, you travel with two or three all the time. I'm like, what? And she said, and once I start communicating. it's going to get extremely dense in here with people. And I'm like, well, how's this work? She goes, well, I'm just going to walk towards somebody and start talking to the person that's with them. So, honest, I got, the first reading out of the gate,

she steps up, she walks over to the audience over here. She asks four women to all stand up. I didn't even know these people were related. And she looks right at the woman on the end and says, does your mother know you're pregnant yet? Stop. I can't. It gets, wait to hear that.

Mom is at the end goes like this. She goes like this, and she then goes, now, you've lost two children? And now the audience is on pins and needles. And the woman's like, and she said, well, the daughter that you lost. No. wants you to know that she's going to, everything's going to be okay and she's going to leave. That's always the message. Right.

The son that you lost is here, is he's connected to his brother. she contacted us two weeks later to tell us that she was carrying a boy. Jesus. That's the first reading. So then it gets crazy. She's connecting all these people in the audience. And then near the end of the show, she turns me and she said, are you open to being read? I said, of course.

And she said, there's somebody standing next to you who is very adamant about wanting to talk to you. And I said, okay. And I have a friend who died by suicide who has come to me in a number of situations. and so I assumed it was Fred. And she said, this person is a pilot, decorated military veteran. Do you know who this might be? And I said, no. And then he said, are you sure?

And I said, yeah, no, no, no. The only person of my family that's died that was in the military was my grandfather, but he was in the Navy. Could it be your grandfather? Nope. And then he says, well, he's getting agitated. And I said, okay, means nothing to me. And he said, well, does the letter K mean anything to you?

I'm like, not really. I can't. And then she said, what about the name Ken? And I said, well, that's what we call our daughter Kendall. She is named after her grandfather, Kenneth. Could it be Kenneth? I'm like, oh, absolutely not. And she said, why are you sure?

I said, well, because Ken was an ad guy. He was like Mad Men era. If he had been an Air Force pilot, I would have known it. And he said, he's saying verify. Now, meanwhile, the control room has called my husband, Chris, and I hear in my little earpiece, we have Chris on the phone. No.

Turns out your father-in-law. No. Drempt of being a pilot. And he tried out for the Air Force Reserves in college and was denied because he was colorblind, a story I did not know. And that you could not look up. And this motherfucker was the kind of guy that would pick something like that, that was irrefutable. So I now know with cameras rolling in a live audience in front of me that my dead father-in-law, is there with me. Whatever you're right. And she says now, I guess he has a lot of grandkids. And I'm like,

mm-hmm. And she goes, and your son, your son is very important to him. And I'm like, mm-hmm. And she goes, I don't know what this means. I hope you know what this means. But he's here because he has a message for you. He's very, very worried about your son. And I'm like, okay. Yeah, I'm like listening. At this point, I can't even feel my body. And she says, I don't know what this means. It's something about a nickname. Something's happening. There's something going on at a school.

And you don't like it. And he's here to tell you you have to trust your son. Oh. And I walked off that set and I called my husband. And I said, well, did you hear that? And he said, yes. And he goes, I have something else to tell you. And I said, what is that?

He said, well, two weeks. ago, my mother called me and my brothers and said she was going to downsize and sell the house in Vermont and asked us if any of us would want, you know, to potentially buy it. And my brother's passed and I told her that we had decided to say in Boston. And I said, well, why don't you call your mother back and tell her to get an appraisal? Because I'm not arguing with your dead father. We're moving to Vermont. And so we did. That's unreal. Yeah. So was this a moment when you went from like, I'm a skepticism, to like now I believe. Oh, I a thousand percent believe. So how do you, you're, you're one of the most logical, rational, well thought out brains. Oh my God, thank you for saying that.

But how, so how do you reconcile this with, you know, dead people walk among us? I believe. I have no problem with it personally. I'm just asking how you, well, think about it. Even if you do, I'm going to let you have a problem with it. It's true. Right? You are allowed to have your own opinions. No, but I. Here's how I. rationalize it. I personally believe death is another birth and that when you're inside a human body, in your mother's body, you are about to be born into a world that you have no consciousness about. And I believe the same is true about death, that there is a world you're about to be born in that you have no consciousness of. And I also happen to be married to a death doua. And we are

extremely sort of energetically minded people. And I feel that there is a, if the word is quantum, or if the word is energy, or if the word is spirituality, that there is something so much deeper going on that we are all connected to. Where does that come from? Like, for you personally, are you a person like, oh, I had a psychedelic journey. It was profound. Or I meditate or, like, Because not everybody has that, or they need a lot of assistance to get there. I think that, you know, trying to make sense of a world that doesn't make sense. And I don't know why I'm going to get so goddamn choked up. I'm thinking a lot right now about how overwhelming life feels for so many people.

And for better or worse, I have always been a person that has, felt the joy or suffering of people at a very deep level. And I remember, early in my career, I was a public defender for legal aid. And I would meet the people that I was assigned to represent at their bail hearing. And they didn't pick me. And, you know, you're in a situation

with another human being that is very stressful and high stakes. And when you're at an arraignment where somebody is being formally read their rights and the charges against them, and then you have a bail hearing, they consider both the charges and they consider somebody's record, but they also consider your ties to a community. And as a young lawyer for legal aid,

it was absolutely devastating to walk out into that courtroom over and over again and see how many times no one was there. no one was there. And it left this huge mark on me. And I think it's made me be the kind of person that really wants to live my life in a way where I show up for people and where I make sure in every interaction, whether I am thanking somebody who's cleaning a public bathroom as I'm walking out of it, or last night, you know, we had an Uber driver and I'm cleaning up the back of the car because I don't want to leave my mess for this person. And there's just a, there's no doubt in my mind that we are all connected.

And in times where life is overwhelming, I think the opportunity that you have is to be a light in the dark. And I think that's a lot of what I try to do. My MBialx breakdown is supported by Superpower. We all know the feeling of leaving a doctor's office. and kind of feeling like we didn't get anything out of the experience that was useful. Maybe they're like, you're fine, drink more water. There's no real data. There's no game plan.

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Use the code break at checkout for $20 off your membership. And after you sign up, they'll ask how you heard about them. Make sure to mention my ambiolics breakdown to help support the show. Especially in launching this podcast, I think I've always had a very busy brain between the ADHD and the dyslexia. And I've only recently started to understand just how intelligent I am. Mainly because people that I respect reflect it back to me in ways that I can take in. and I'm just trying to make sense of a world where there's a tremendous amount of suffering.

And the way that I often escape it for myself is by tapping into something deeper than the day-to-day stuff that we are all caught up in that ultimately doesn't matter. And every time I simplify things and I step out in nature and I drop into a present moment or I take a minute and I really just experience the photos of the two of you, and what your life might be like, I'm reminded of the true things that matter in life. And so I think that my opinion about spirituality and what happens when we die and the ability to connect with things that we cannot explain is how I'm making sense of a world

that often feels cruel and unfair. Do you have a God concept? I don't have a God concept, as a thing or a entity. Like, I'm not a dogma person. And I believe that your connection to faith is deeply personal, and it's not in a building or in an organized religion. And so I believe in something bigger,

but I don't know what that is. Oh, I'm sure this is not. You're like, I didn't know we were going to have a structure. No, it's not even on my itinerary of things to speak to you about. What do you believe in? Well, no. Lyme likes an itinerary, too. So this is a great little dogleg more on.

What do you believe in? I was raised, you know, I'm part of an ethnic people that has a very, you know, a large umbrella, but also a kind of specific dogma, you know, associated with it. And my grandparents were immigrants from Eastern Europe and on my mom's side. They were very, very religious. And so, you know, there wasn't really a. separation for my mom's generation between sort of your identity and your religion, you just were, right? It's what was stamped on your passport and didn't allow you

out of the country. You know, like that's sort of what I was raised with. My parents were born during World War II, also a very interesting, you know, time post-Holocust and all these things. So I was raised with a lot of tradition, a lot of ritual. But I will say my parents were not believers. And I had a very specific sense of identification with the God of my understanding, which the way that I was taught it, it's everywhere. Whatever it is, I was not taught, you know, what a lot of people think about if you're raised as a Jewish person. Like, I wasn't taught a man in the sky. Like, of course that existed. And, you know, Michelangelo's paintings didn't help. You know, like, there's a real, you know, anthropomorphization of God, which I wasn't raised. And so, you know,

with. I really was taught that, like, there's something. And it's, it both is inside of you. Yeah. And it also makes you up. And also it's the air around you and it's this indescribable thing. I took on a more religious life and also a life of more study, like traditional text study, which leads you to mystical places. Yeah. And from that research and, you know, study, which I did for years, and years through college and graduate school, I found that what felt to, what I felt to be true was true in terms of teachings. And it wasn't just Jewish teachings. It's the same teachings that mystics of every tradition have all resonated around, which like to me, you know, one of the main credos of the Jewish faith is that we're one. God is one. Everything's one. And so it's kind of been

like this like, you know, clicking into place of like all these things. Like, I always felt that every religion has their expression, their prophet. You know, the Baha'i faith always really appealed to me because it was like, oh, every prophet is true. Yeah. Then they had a prophet that they say is true now. I stop at Moses. You know, that's my thing. But, um, but that, notion of we're all trying to make sense of a world that does not make sense. And in ancient times, it was like, what's an earthquake? Why does the sun come up? And for us, it's like, why am I here? Do I belong? And what's the purpose, you know, of my existence? And should I buy the $18 smoothie from heroin? But those are all kind of paths to the same source. It's the same source that's,

you know, kind of guiding us. And I've always felt like, I, I've always felt like, I, I'm a religious person, not just a spiritual person. There's nothing wrong with being a spiritual person, but I happen to love the intellectual aspects of my, you know, tradition. And for me, you know, the intellect is divine. Like, it's a divine practice to study. It's a divine practice to do work on yourself. Like, that's all sort of built in. I talk about this for hours, because I do think that if you think about the purpose of it, if it's not blind obedience, it's actually to stir up something deeper inside you and a connection to something bigger than you. Well, and also to use human relationships to try and model a divine relationship,

which is one of love, compassion, open-heartedness, yes and not know. So to me, like, that's the lesson that every religious tradition ultimately is, trying to teach. But when you think about what really is and when you think about this source, like we're all just using whatever language, whatever culture, whatever biases, whatever patriarchy was in place to try and communicate that. And yeah, religion is used to control. And that's a thing. But I'm less bothered by that. The more I have a spiritually sound kind of identity, it doesn't bother me as much. Like there are things that bother me for sure about every religious practice and in particular mine.

But yeah, it bothers me less because there's a piece, you know. Both of the podcasts, yours and this podcast are trying to help people understand themselves. Yes. Live better lives, overcome a lot of the suffering that, you know, you were feeling at the beginning. And science has come up with more science-based tools, more proof, more ways in which our brain is wired for ecstasy. and if we do particular practices, we're going to have less anxiety, more optimism, feeling more joy. And also, we seem to need a lot of people, need the science-based tool. Yet, on the other side, there are the mystics who have been trying to help people feel better,

live better, find the path that they're on, find the synchronicity in life like what version of your life would have happened had you said no to Vermont? Right. Right? What struggle might have you have been in with your sense? son. And so you had this divine moment of direction change and guidance. And a lot of people are looking for guidance, too, right? There is no science-based tool for looking for guidance. Well, you know what's interesting about science and interesting about research, which I believe deeply in. And I am not a scientist. And I do not do academic research. I mean, when you have

21 million followers in the size podcasts that both you and I have, you have a massive focus group. They like a lot of funny things. We sometimes can't really put our finger on it. But here's the thing that I think a lot about, that I think that there's this interest in science because we're looking for a reason to believe that actual simple things that we used to do will work now. You know, I've been thinking lately a lot about the fact

that let's just say that we were still living in a world where cigarettes could be marketed to children and everybody could smoke everywhere. And instead of going after the companies for predatory practices and creating a product that is addictive and then marketing it... More addictive than nicotine on its own. Yes. Yes, exactly. And instead of creating regulations for public health, we just let a... You know, we just were like, that's it. Everybody smoke. And we know this is happening, but screw it. And now we're going to over index and we're going to have...

a head of this and ahead of that. We're going to try to get people to care about this. And I see that happening with social media. I see it happening with the way that we're living our lives now, and we're allowing ourselves to be sucked into our phones. And we are allowing ourselves to be very reclusive because of the hangover that's happened that's very, very real that most people haven't come out of from lockdown. And that I find that one of the important things about the research and science is it elevates the importance of simple things like taking a walk. It elevates the importance of things that we all know. We know the importance of sleep. But when you truly understand why it matters, it then explains everything else that is unraveling about your

life if you're only getting four hours asleep because you sleep next to your phone and you're constantly waking up. And so it's weird to me because the advice is very simple. The advice is the same stuff that our grandparents were doing. For the most part, not necessarily in psychology and not necessarily with parenting and emotional regulation. But when it comes to health, it's like we have so over-indexed in the wrong

direction and the way that we're living our lives that I feel that science is a reminder that these things that you'd rather not do actually work. 100%. We spoke to Huberman and it was like there's a playbook, a manual for the human body, and there are like some basic principles that a lot of people are missing and therefore have negative repercussions. The kind of not flip side, but slightly the edge of that is to be so reliant on science that we miss some of the mystical adventure.

Yes. Well, or that if science can't prove it, it's not real. Well, then that brings us back to faith. Right. Which is the act in believing in something without proof. And I would argue, you know, your experience of having that interaction kind of blows a lid off of skepticism and may say, well, kind of restructures or might restructure your understanding of the nature of reality. But if you think about this from a neuroscientific perspective, right? and you really look at the brain, and we just had Dr. Doty, and you know this better than me,

so I would be citing other people's research. But if you look at the mechanism in terms of filtering in the brain and the job of filtering information, you can increase mystical experiences in your life because your brain is designed to show you more of what you're looking for. And when you open up your mind and your arms to a possibility that there is a different way to live, that all around you, there are little clues that are there for you to see if you are telling yourself you want to see them. And one of my favorite ways to do this is to just take on a game where you look for hearts every day. Like whether it's a stain on the floor or it's the shape of a leaf or it's a pattern in a brick and you will start to notice that the world shifts and your brain starts to show you

things. And some of which you can explain through neuroscience and some of which you just open yourself up to believing because I'm going to give you another one. So we move to Vermont and my husband is getting his master's in spiritual psychology. And one of his assignments is to do a paper on a mystic. And so the professor gives him a list of mystics. And one of the people listed is Bill W from A.A. So Chris digs in to the research on Bill W. I was just literally talking about this two hours ago.

And Bill W. grew up in the town we moved to. And as Chris is researching this and reads about his grandfather who was a huge drunk and very abusive, he had

this, like, unbelievable story happened where he drives the horse and buggy up a mountain goes and hikes up to the top and has this crazy life-altering experience, drunk, and then comes running down the mountain into the center of this little town, East Dorset, and runs into a church and basically explains that he's seen God, blah-blah-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b. The whole thing changed Bill W's life. I live on that mountain.

We had no idea. Wow. So I believe that when you truly understand the magic and the power that you have, and you start to understand the power of your mind to show you what you're looking for, and too many of us don't realize that you're always programming your mind, either for something negative or something positive. And when you understand simple things that you can do to either take better care of yourself or be better in your relationships or utilize some of the basics in your body and your mind, it opens up a completely different experience of life. And so the more you lean into the mystical and the more you lean into seeing signs and really calling out the coincidences and celebrating them, which only magnifies your brain's intensity around seeing signs.

seeing it again, like the fact that you were like, I was just talking about, I'm not surprised at all. I actually feel like I'm meeting you now, even though I've admired you from afar, because this is the moment that we're supposed to, like, have our audiences meet, and you and I are supposed to meet, and the synergies are supposed to happen. And when you go through life, believing that, unbelievable things happen. I wonder if you can talk a little bit about kind of perspective and framing. You know, you talk a bit about sort of framing in terms of what you expect, what you, I mean, for lack of a better word, what you can manifest.

Can you talk a bit about, in terms of when you think of what ails people, how much of it is about literally perspective shifting? Because a lot of people feel like, oh, if I had the money, right, I'd have this. or I would do that, or if I had more time, or if I had a nanny, or if I didn't have kids, right? But how much of it is actually a shift that you can do all on your own just between your own two ears?

So the first thing, I'm going to answer your question, but I want to say something first, that everything that I'm about to say will shift your perspective, it doesn't change the very real circumstances that you're dealing with. But shifting your perspective is essential. because until you actually believe that through your attitude or your actions,

you can have a positive influence on any problem or any situation or any circumstance or any discrimination or any political environment that you're in, until you actually get to the point where you believe that your thoughts and actions could truly matter, you won't do anything. See, I think the biggest thing standing in people's way is hope. it's not the ability to change that stopping people. It's the opinion that it doesn't matter anyway. And so a lot of what I think about and what I really am trying to give people is a borrowed sense of belief.

Because I do believe that absolutely anybody can make small changes to the way that they think and to the actions that they take, and those small changes truly do have the power to shift everything. But if I can't get you to first have a little bit of hope that it could work for you, you're never going to do it. Because they stack. Yeah. Well, because it's so easy to go, well, that never works for a person like me. That's easy for you guys because you're the host of Jeopardy and you're a neuroscientist. Or that's for people. like that, but not someone like me. And so until you have that little door open that maybe, just maybe this could work,

and there are ways that you can get somebody to do that. You can basically show them someone that was in very similar circumstances and how small shifts work for somebody that was just like you or who was in an even worse situation. you can use science to say, well, you may feel a certain way, but this is what the research actually says. But that's the first step, is suspending doubt, resignation, and the evidence that you have that nothing's worked, and having a small moment of personal faith. that I have no evidence based on my history that this change could stick or it could make a difference

but for some reason I'm going to have faith in myself and in the actions that I take and I'm going to trust in that. It really struck me when you mentioned that you didn't think of yourself as intelligent until more recently because obviously I assume with everything you've accomplished and everything that that was a prerequisite which clearly it's not, right?

There are ways that you can still achieve, even having reservations, right? About your potential. But I wonder if what you're talking about, is it a version of a sort of imposter syndrome where people believe, like, that's not for me or I'm not good enough? Like, is it a version of that?

I don't know. I think it's more primal than that. I just, I think that, you know, we are, we get into our patterns. And even if what you know is making you miserable, it's still what you know. And if you look, and you know this better than I do, I'm just citing research from people that have come on the show and that I've dug into for the book. But if you really accept as fact that human beings are hardwired to move towards what feels easy, in the moment and to also move instinctually away from what feels hard, what you know, even if it's making you miserable, is easy.

It's why it's hard to get out of a relationship even when you know it's bad. It's why it's hard to get out of bed in the morning when you dread the day you're waking up into. I also think it's a little bit of a failure of imagination, not to make it someone's fault, but when we aren't shown another possibility, like that's all that exists. So my example is that at 17 years old, I burnt three of my fingers on a toaster oven. And my sister, who was on her own magical journey to recover from decades of fibromyalgia and being unable to walk and who changed her life drastically, she cupped my fingers. And the burns that I started to see immediately from singeing the blisters were,

healed. And I knew that she had done something that, like, opened up an area of magic. And I turned to her and I'm like, I want superpowers. Like, that's pretty freaking cool. Wait, like, you're talking like superhero type. And it's... And I joked with her at the time. I'm like, do I need to hum, chant? Like, she was, you know, this was 25 years ago, ish. And she was meditating and doing yoga and doing all the stuff that's more, more normal now. And back then in Toronto, in a fairly much more conservative world, like she was way out there. And we would tease her a lot. And I didn't really have the language to explain what she was doing.

And in that moment, like, and I even think to myself, how real was that? Did I really see the blisters? But in that- You're gaslighting yourself. A little bit because it really starts to push against the nature of reality. The scientist in me is very uncomfortable with this conversation, but yes. Well, exactly, right? It's like, well, what is real?

Did you really see the blisters? Did you make up the fact that you had a miraculous healing moment? But there's a version of me that went to take out a pizza slice from the toaster oven, singed these three fingers on my right hand, looked and was about to go run them under cold water, and immediately saw the circles forming. Had my sister at the table, sat down, she said, let me hold and cup your hands. And in 10 minutes, I pulled my hands away and those were gone. And that sent me down a path of what else is possible in the world.

And I spent the next however many years exploring every modality and studying with the person she studied with. And I spent 15,000 plus hours doing hands-on work to start to say, like, I want to know the formula for this. I believe you. And here's what I also believe. that the human body has such an extraordinarily intelligent design. And there is, I don't think it's a function of a lack of imagination.

I personally believe that most of us are literally eight-year-old kids stuck in big bodies, and we have not evolved from the coping mechanisms and a lot of our views about love and personal responsibility and boundaries from that age and that people only know what they know and it's very hard to get someone to see a bigger possibility for themselves. And so you were shown that through that experience with your sister. And a lot of people live a life that is lived inside a very small circumference. If you look at the research around how few friends people have, if you look at the fact that people are working from home now,

if you look at what people are exposed to in their child, childhood, that shapes who you become. And for a long time, I think one of the reasons why I never really thought about myself as being all that intelligent is because I was really a walking red flag. I mean, I was a very toxic person, and I don't like to label other people. I typically would say toxic behavior. But I, the result of having an incident of childhood trauma in the fourth grade, or I woke up with another kid on top of me and burying that experience. And then not knowing that I had dyslexia and ADHD, and I'm part of this lost generation of women who are for like a couple decades,

they had no idea that there was dyslexia in ADHD because they had only studied boys in the 1970s around ADHD. Which goes for most of our health issues as well. I mean, how does our body work? Correct. And women are still not included in the clinical trials because of our hormone issues. And so it's sort of like they do medication like a golf tea. We'll put the ladies on a lower dose. We'll put the dudes up here.

So there are so many things that can be explained. And I didn't know. When you have dyslexia or ADHD and it is not actually addressed what develops anxiety. And that's what I got treated for. and the underlying issue is always dyslexia in ADHD. And when I look at the research on ADHD, I have the particular type of ADHD that has a high correlation to extremely risky and impulsive behavior and to alcohol.

So that explains why I was basically an alcoholic during college and law school. It explains why I cheated on every boyfriend. I just thought I was a horrible human being. And so I was in this trap. And there was no language in the vernacular to correct that. Oh, my God, no. And so I, and this is the thing about people that are stuck, because I have been stuck so many times in my life, that when you're someone who's stuck, you're not actually stuck, you're in deep conflict with yourself. Do you want to know the hardest working person in a classroom? It's the person who's struggling. It's not the person who's getting great grades. It's the person who doesn't get it. Yeah, the teacher. And we look at people who are stuck and we think that, oh, you must be complacent or you must be still, no, people know when their health is out of whack. People know when they're giving up on themselves. People know when they're not thriving at work.

People know when they've given up on their dreams. People know when you're in a relationship that is a relationship where you're retreating in a way where you don't deserve it. But you're in conflict because you don't know how to get out of this pattern of behavior or this situation that you're in. And so then what starts to happen is you see, you're in. You see, you're in. You start to develop a narrative to explain it. And there is this phenomenon in psychology, which I'm sure you're aware of this is from Dr. Paul Conti at Stanford, who, as you know, wrote the big book about trauma and was Lady Gaga's psychiatrist and super brilliant. And he's the first person that came on the podcast that talked about something called attribution, which basically means with all

the intelligent, amazing design of the human being, I didn't know this. that there's one massive flaw. And the massive flaw is that children do not have the attribution ability yet, which means if adults are psycho around you or in a bad mood, you have no cognitive ability to attribute it to them and not to you. 100%. We talk about this a lot because the only skill of a child is to try and make it right. Yes.

And the last thing a child will think is I can actually change anything, right? You get a false sense of power, especially if you grow up in alcoholism of like, if I do this, she'll behave this way. If I do that, he'll do that. Well, that's survival. Right. It's like, well, but ultimately this is, it's an extension of a survival mechanism where if I complain about them, I'll get hit in the face. If I complain about this, it's not going to change. It's going to get worse. I'm going to be punished, right? So this is what I always say. The only person that there is no recourse for abusing is yourself. Yes. As a child, no one can tell you don't do that. No one can tell you you're not to blame. It's a perfect cycle of what to do with those angry feelings and those

scared feelings and all of that. Absolutely. Which is why there are so many of us that reach adulthood, and at multiple and various moments throughout your life, you find yourself unhappy or stuck or frustrated or lost or in a broken situation, and you somehow think it's all your fault. Or behaving badly with yourself, which just reinforces it. And then the inability to... I wasn't saying with you. No, it's true, but it's like, no, but it's absolutely true. And then because you can't stop yourself, because you don't actually understand what to do, you literally stay trapped in it and you think there's something wrong with you. And so

for me, back to the intelligence thing, I say to myself, how could I possibly be that smart and that intelligent if I'm constantly doing things that hurt me or other people? And it's also confirmation bias. It's just like with the hearts. If you're looking for hearts and you find hearts, great. If you're looking for ways to show I'm a fuck up, you're going to find it at every opportunity even if that's not what's happening. Correct. So we were having a discussion, the other day and he was like, oh, I was just going to fuck it up. And I was like, that's, I wasn't saying you're going to fuck it up. But if his narrative is, I fuck things up, you're going to see it even in places that it doesn't exist. Correct. And then you get into like, why are you being

so defensive? Why are you attacking me? Well, I'm actually not, right? It's like, sorry. You did a very good job de-escalating that conversation, by the way. I was really proud of you. You were on another planet. I tried to Byron Katie him. I'm like, but is that true? But is it true? I feel it's true. I'm like, Byron Katie didn't tell me what to do when he says that. I feel it's true. I don't know. I want to ask about dyslexia. Yeah. I grew up with a generalized learning disability in the second grade. I was learning Hebrew and English. Hebrew was going great. English not so well at all. Also French. They're supposed to teach you as well. Also was learning French. None of that was working for me. My mother, who was a psychoeducational consultant, was always like,

you're so bright and always very verbal. Yes, fixed mindset. Here we go. So smart. And I'm like, I can't speak in any language. This kid, Adam Spitz, is reading books like this. And I cannot. And I can't get through school and I don't know what they're asking me. And I'm frustrated and angry and starting to lash out. Yeah. How does someone, well, first, what did your dyslexia look like?

And second, how does someone with dyslexia go to law school? And that's an enormous level of reading. I have no idea. I basically almost failed. Like, there's this crazy story where, you know, after first year. I don't even want to tell you this story. It's so embarrassing. I apply to law school. Let's just be real. I apply to law school because my boyfriend at the time had gotten into graduate school. And I was working as a temp at a law firm and I freaking hated it. But I didn't know what else to do.

And I didn't want to get left behind. So I apply to all these law schools. I get into Boston College law school. I get there and I'm like, this is not for me. But what else am I going to do? and so I sit and like a lot of people, I literally faked my way through it. I would sit in the library for hours and talk to people. That's what I did. I just would talk to as many people. Talk, talk, talk.

And then I would panic and stay up all night. And I would try to write the paper. And then I would go to class and my strategy, because the thing about people who are dyslexic, is if you don't opt out, and go, I'm losing hope. This isn't for me. And you opt out.

You find a strategy. Mine was to talk first. So if you raise your hand first and have something to say, you don't get called on. And so that's how I faked my way through it. But I remember everyone was applying for those law review things. What a joke. And I am writing the article to try to be on law review, even though I hate to do law. Or I hate to write.

I don't know I have dyslexia yet. I'm smoking cigarettes. I'm drinking like every night, the bottle of wine, the cigarettes. I'm drinking coffee to hydrate. It was just terrible. It's a diuretic, you know. Did it? Oh, is it? Okay. Well, so I pull an all-nighter to finish this 30-page paper so that I can apply to be on Law Review. And I realize I have no printer paper. And this thing is due in approximately a half an hour. So I take out, no joke, a spiral-bound notebook. And I rip out the pages. And I feed it through. And the last page printed on a diagonal. And then I took a paperclip and I drove to the school and I slid it underneath the door. Like, can you imagine what they thought when they saw that thing? And so I stumbled my way through law school, hating every minute of it, and I get to third year and I discover mock trial.

And lo and behold, I was fantastic at it because I had been unknowingly making my way through school by being hyperverbal. And so... Which other people would call overcompensating. Yes. But in your case, it was compensating appropriately. Yes. And I would have guessed that you can listen to the lecture and regurgitate and keep all of that information, huge auditory processing capability. Well, I think one of the reasons why one of my superpowers now is taking highly intellectual and complex topics and distilling it down to this is because it's what I had to train myself to do because I was going to need to recall something.

So I came up with all kinds of ways to visualize things and sticky little metaphors and things that would help me remember. because otherwise it couldn't do it. What did your dyslexia look like? I don't even know. Like as a kid, could you not spell? I don't remember. Okay. Like, I don't remember a lot of my childhood.

I'm one of those people that have almost no memories. And that's because I think from the fourth grade on, after that incident of being sound asleep and waking up to have an older kid, you know, on you, I disassociated. And I lived in a constant state of being on. edge. So I wasn't present for a lot of my childhood. And I've come to learn it's a very common experience. So it's funny because, I mean, I, like I said, I had an agenda of what our conversation

was going to look like. You've covered a couple things unwittingly without even knowing what was on my list. The eight-year-old was something I really want to talk about. I'm glad. What if we're all just eight years old? But one of the things, I read a lot of books. I'm the, Jonathan calls me the robot. You can literally wave a book in front of her and she's read it. No, but like I was, I do, I read quickly and I, but anyway, I read a lot of books. I read a lot of books for this podcast. And that's kind of, that's my job here. I read the books.

And almost every book that I've read in the three years that we've been doing this talks about trauma, talks about childhood this. It's like, it's somewhere in there. I was like, I don't know the last time I read a book that didn't kind of go there. And so it was really interesting that you mentioned it because it exists for everyone on some level. You know, either capital T or lowercase T. And we've had Gabor Mante on, obviously, and we've talked about it a lot. That was one of the things, though, that I, as I went through the book, that I was like,

but what about if you had trauma? But what, right? And I wonder if you can sort of contextualize because you don't have to talk about it, it's still in there, right? Yeah. And I think what's so, you know, the reason that people say things like this radically changed my life, I refuse to live any differently. The reason people are tattooing this, let them all over the world, right? The people are having this tattooed on them. The reason is because it works kind of no matter what.

Yes. So I wonder if you can speak to, though, you know, the people who are. aren't like the high achievers who are like, I'm ready to take it to the next level, but people who really are finding themselves stuck or, you know, dealing with like, I'm the child of narcissistic parents, which every other thing on Instagram is now about how you didn't know that you're the child of narcissistic parents, right? And all the things that... Well, we love to label people. Right, exactly. So I wonder if you can talk about where those labels fit and how they don't need to fit, right, if you're going to utilize this. Well, so to let them

theory is ultimately a mindset tool. And what it does is it helps you in a nanosecond to identify what's in your control and what's not in your control. And so if we back up just a little bit, this is ultimately a book about learning how to work with the fundamental laws of human behavior and human wiring. And what I have come to learn is that I had been working against it my entire life. And when you start implementing this tool, and that's an important thing, this is not a concept, it's a tool. And the reason why it works is because it is a tool that exists in a legacy of deep wisdom, ancient research, philosophical principles, and therapeutic modalities.

And it applies all of that in an instant, in any situation that you are in, where you are focusing on something or someone that you can't control. And it then prompts you and reminds you what is in your control. And so the way that you use it is... It's also the foundation of what Bill W. discovered with Dr. Bob in a hospital. Yes. which is you can only control what you can.

Yes. And you pray for the wisdom to be able to know the difference using this kind of tool. Yes. Right? Turn it over. And so for me, whether it's because of dyslexia or because I've always been a red flag for most of my life in terms of my own coping mechanisms and behavior and controlling nature or whatever it may be, that this is so incredible.

because for me, concepts don't work. Like, people have told me forever to just let it go. Just drop it. I hate letting it go because it means I'm losing. Like, I don't like to let it go because there's something in that that's implied that they won and I have to let it go and move on. And I don't want to do that. And there's something different about saying let them.

Because what you're doing when you say let them. And you're going to start saying it anytime somebody pisses you off or stresses you out or you see something. or hurts you, or you see something in the news that really upsets you or you feel overwhelmed or stuck or your like bosses in a bad mood, you're going to say, let them. And when you say let them, you're not allowing somebody to hurt you. You're actually taking a step back and you're recognizing what is happening. And you're acknowledging the power is not in trying to change what this person is doing. The power is saying let them and detaching from what that person is doing. And then you do the second step, which is let me, let me remind myself that in any situation, I always, always have

power because there are three things I can control. I can control what I'm going to think next. I can control what I do or I don't do. And oftentimes what I find is not reacting is what gives me more power. And I can control how I process my emotion. And that's always in your power. And I choose to believe that any human being that starts to get very intentional and take responsibility, and let's look at the word responsibility, it's the ability to respond. So when you take responsibility for your life, you're owning your ability to respond to the things that are happening in life. And you can always respond with how you're going to think about it, and that's the framing, what you're going to do. And, you know, it reminds you, you can leave any conversation,

you can leave any date, you can leave any job, you can leave any relationship, you can leave any dinner table with your family. People have to be reminded of that, though. Yes, but that's the let me part. See, right now we are giving too much power to outside forces and to other people. And when you start saying let them, a couple things happen. Number one, you feel instant peace. You feel so much more calm because it's the ultimate boundary. Like if you're standing in line at the grocery store and you're five people deep and they've only got one cashier and now you're like starting to feel the stress and now you start to think that you could manage a grocery store better than anyone else and you're frustrated. Just say let them. And what's interesting is that it

doesn't make the line move faster. It stops something stupid from draining your energy. And as you both know, your time and energy and how you spend it is what determines your experience of life. And for anybody that feels stuck or exhausted or tired or you're last on your list. I got news for you. You're not the problem. The problem is that you're allowing other people to drain you and you're giving power to other people's opinions and to their emotions and you're making it your job to manage everybody. The moment you let adults be adults, you're going to be struck by how much time you actually have. Well, one of the fears is I'll be alone. Well, that happens. So talk about that because the notion is also like,

You know, and the section on relationships is fantastic. It's like, what if you don't care what other people think? What if you are not taking care of their feelings in place of yours? Which when you say it out loud, like, why would you do that? It's crazy, right? Right. But the notion of what if I keep letting them and what it leads to is I realize that, like, it's a bad relationship and all these friendships are shitty.

I don't even like my life. Yes. What do you do when let them leads to that? Well, thank you for saying that because, you know, we did a ton of research. And what we found, and by we, I mean, my daughter who worked for this huge cybersecurity firm, I brought her on to do some research, and she's like a massive analytical systems-thinking brain. And she's the one that discovered the loneliness piece. And she said, Mom, you can't write a book about this because people are using let them.

And everybody loves saying let them. Why? You feel better than people. Let's just call it for what it is. No, you have a little chart. It's like you feel, instead of inferior, you feel superior. Yeah. Like if your friends don't invite you, it's mentally healthy to feel a little disappointed.

That's a sign that you're well, actually. Right? But then you punish yourself. But when you say let them, let them go away for the weekend without me, you rise above them and you feel superior. This is why everybody gets it tattooed on them. Let them, let them. You feel superior to the grocery store. You feel superior to the bad driver.

You feel superior to the idiot that's spewing stupid political things. Like, let them. Like, it's a waste of my time and energy to worry about this, which means I feel above you. But the more you say it and you distance yourself and you let people reveal who they are, you will notice that there are relationships that are not reciprocal. You will notice that in your family, you're the sibling that reaches out all the time. But here's what I'm going to remind you. if you're feeling lonely, it tells me that you're not actually doing step two.

Because step two is let me. Let me decide what I want to do about this. Because in the case of, let's say, you're the one that reaches out in your family. You're the one that holds everybody together. If you value family, then the let me part might be, this is my role. And I own it. And I'm not going to- And you don't get to be resentful about it.

You don't get to punish everybody. Yes. You don't get to remind them how hard you're working. working to make everything come together. Yes. And what I've also found in adult friendship is that I'm friends with a lot of people that are very introverted. I'm friends with people that aren't that social. And they're not going to be the one that planet. And I don't want to be in tit for cat relationships. Right. Like I invited her, but when is she going to reciprocate, right? We're not in middle school. We're not eight. Correct. And everybody has a lot going on. And not

everybody owes you a response just because you texted them. And so literally providing people with a little bit of grace, like, well, let them, let them not show up because maybe they can't. You know, I don't know if you've had Dr. Stewart Ablon on the show, but you need him. He is a psychologist who's at Mass General Brigham, one of my most favorite guests of all time. He was in our Boston studios last week. He said something that changed my life. He said, Mel, people do well when they can. And if they're not doing well or they're challenging or they can't change, it's a because there are like five fundamental skills that are missing. But you actually, you do touch on this.

Yes. People change exactly when they want to. Yes. And what I was taught, and like my whole life, it was some version in my family or my social life of why aren't they, and then fill in the blank, why are they doing what I want? Why aren't they acting the way I want? Why won't they do this like I do? Whatever.

And it was a sponsor of mine who literally said, people give you exactly what they can. and no more. So you can keep trying to squeeze it out of them. And chances are they're going to show up, they're going to show up in a shitty mood and you don't want to be with them that way anyway. Actually, worse. It's worse.

Can we call that this episode title? Actually, worse. No, seriously, it's worse. So I'm sure you've had Dr. Kay, Healthy Gamer on. Yes. So his research is fascinating. And if you combine it with Dr. Sherritt from King's College, and you're a neuroscientist, so you know this,

when you wish someone would change, it translates to pressure. And what does pressure create? It doesn't create motivation, it creates resistance to change. So your pressure, your desire, your opinion, your judgment, even your well-intentioned gifts to people, here's a tutor, here's running shoes, here's this, here's that. It actually creates the standoff that you're trying to end. People only change when they feel ready to change.

And, you know, one of my favorite examples to explain this, which is why you need to let them. You need to let people change when they're ready. You need to let people learn from life. You need to let people be who they are. You need to let people make their own mistakes. Well, of course, because the greatest teacher in life is life. And the greatest teacher in terms of motivating someone's intrinsic motivation to change is actual pain. Because what is the saying in addiction?

and sobriety, people get sober when being drunk is harder than facing the things that you're running from. And it's true about anything. And I want to remind you as you're listening, because you're probably thinking about somebody in your life that is struggling that you wish would take better care of themselves. Now, by the way, wishing somebody would take better care of themselves is a beautiful thing. Wishing your adult child would be more motivated or see the potential that you see is a beautiful thing. but the problem isn't wanting more for somebody. The problem is how we're going about it. And so one of the examples that made a huge impression on me,

so this is why you've got to let people be, and you've got to learn to love them as they are. And you have to learn to love them as they're not. Or stop trying to love them if that's not the person you're supposed to love. Correct, unless it's family. I mean, family teaches you how to love somebody you hate at times, you know? Well, you know, yeah, there are times when it's appropriate, to not have a relationship with family.

I worry that estrangement's on the rise. I worry that, you know, emotional immaturity also means when you cut somebody off without explanation. Emotional immaturity is not actually sitting with somebody and explaining why. The number of Instagram reels that go around of like, here's the solution, cut everybody off. And then you get this like self-righteous indignation

of like ions at a toxic relationship, which in some cases I'm not going to, like that may be your, like it's fine abuse i don't know but this general notion that this is a solution right to our own ills is actually not a complete one i would say well um let me remind everybody because one of the theories in the book is that we're all eight-year-olds inside of big bodies when it comes to emotional immaturity and that a child pouts when they get overwhelmed and why do you pout because you want to draw somebody over to you. Adults do the silent treatment. And a silent treatment is punishing somebody.

You are punishing somebody because you don't want, because they're not doing what you want them to do. And so you remove your love and access. You want it. And when you cut someone off without explanation, you are not a mature person. You are actually engaging in extraordinarily emotionally, emotionally, abusive behavior because you are punishing somebody else without explanation. And I worry about the rise in this. And one of the things that I'm hopeful about with the let them theory, at least how it's helped me with people that have narcissistic personality styles, is, again, people do well when they can.

And if you have somebody in your life that has very challenging personality and behavior, first of all, you get to choose how much time you spend with them. You get to choose how much energy you pour into it. And when you say let them, you are following all of the guidance from the world's leading psychologists about challenging people, which is you're actually recognizing this person is who they are. Right. And nothing you do is going to change who they are. Right. And when you say let them, you're now entering a relationship with your eyes wide open without the expectation of change, which means you now are in control because you get to choose how much time you're going to pour into it. You get to choose whether or not their drama impacts you.

And here's the other cool thing. I used to be terrified of the people in my life who are narcissistic. I now feel a lot of, I feel sorry for them because I see an eight-year-old inside that body as they're throwing a tantrum. And I also know that somebody that has a narcissistic personality style was not born that way, they were made that way, typically through neglect by parents emotionally. And so it creates a space for two things to be true. And that's what I love about this. It creates this flexibility in you to be able to let people be who they are. And I'll take an example that a lot of my audience writes in about guilt. Like, I don't know how to deal with guilt. My parents are disappointed. My parents don't like my partner. My parents have expectations.

Okay, great. Let them. let them have their opinions, let them have negative thoughts, let them have their beliefs. Because we know based on the science that telling them what to think actually turns off the part of the brain that somebody needs to listen. And when you just let somebody have their beliefs, they tend to not stick them in your face. And with disappointment, let's use the example of you're not going to go home next month. And now your parents are really disappointed. Isn't that a good thing? Like, really stop and think about that.

Isn't that a good thing? If you have a business partner and you can't make it across country to give some speech or do it? Isn't it a good thing if they're disappointed? Right. Let them be disappointed because it means they want you there. But that doesn't mean you have to be there. And I love this change because if somebody was disappointed in me, I was so uncomfortable

with that I thought I had to bend over backwards to make the disappointment go away. What if you could see disappointment is somebody just loving you and wishing you were there? And so you let them do that, but then you've got to say the second part, let me. Let me double down on my values and let me say, okay, they're disappointed, but what do I value? And what do I want to think, do, or say in response to this? and so instead of changing your plans to make them happy or to make them think you're a good son or daughter, let them be disappointed and then say to yourself, let me decide how I'm going to respond to this. If you want to change your plans, do it because it makes you feel good. Because when you do things

out of guilt, you turn other people into the villain. And it creates resentment. And you actually are no longer taking responsibility for your actions. When you do it because it makes you you feel like a good person or because it matters to you, you're now owning the power, and that changes everything. I wonder if you can talk a bit about the kind of over-identification, both with our own negative thoughts and also the over-identification that we have with other people's thoughts. So this notion of, you know, you had something in the book about, you have a section in the book about fearing our own negative thoughts, that sometimes we can think horrible things about

people that we deeply love. Oh, you mean, yeah, yes, yes, sure. And I was like, even my children, sometimes I think, like, oh, what am I doing? Every day. Right, exactly. And this notion that we don't have to over-identify with that. We don't have to over-identify with other people's expectations of us or even their feelings about it, right? Yes. I don't, I'm, you may be hurt. It was not my intention to hurt you, but I can't necessarily fix that for you. You talk about riding an emotional wave. Uh-huh. And I think this is something that a lot of us, don't understand. I didn't. Can you explain what the writing the emotional wave is?

Yeah. So I didn't understand what emotions were, which is why I was afraid of them. And learning that an emotion is just an automatic six-second chemical explosion in your body. And also learning that if you don't suppress it, react to it, numb it, or overthink about it, most emotions, if you just let it rise up and fall. it dissipates in 90 seconds. People don't know that. I didn't know that. Send that text,

shout, scream, make that call, break up with someone in the moment, right? This is like a novel thing that we need to know. Yes. Like, if you really embrace this truth,

that emotional maturity, which means understanding your emotion and being able to, the word is regulate, I don't like, that word. It's sort of like being able to be in control of your response versus letting your emotions control you. That will change your life. So it is being the subject, not the object,

of your emotions or your life experience. Yes. Most of us act based on how we feel. What if you could feel how you feel and act in a way that makes you proud? I was the kind of person that was an adult tantrum thrower. When I got overwhelmed at life or work or something's going on with a kid, it was like a tidal wave of frustration. What would you do? Oh, I'd rage text. I would scream. I'd send those, you know, the emails that people send that are like a page long, you spend an hour writing and then you hit send and it doesn't do anything. I would come home after a stressful day at work and vomit all over my family, it's not okay. And even in the last year, when things get really overwhelming at work, I would send texts to my business partner that are not okay.

Because if you can't tolerate emotional waves, people have two strategies. They either barf it out at other people, which is a tantrum, or they shove it down. And that's, you know, builds over time into rage. They put food on top of it and drugs and sex. Food on top, drinks, everything, right? And it comes out eventually. It comes out eventually. And so understanding that we're all just eight years old, I'm sorry, what's my option? If I'm not having a tantrum, I'm not allowed to push it out. What am I supposed to do? You push it out. You can push it down. What you're going to do is you're going to let your emotions rise. And then you're going to say, let me decide how I'm going to respond. I'm going to just let these emotions

just rise and fall. And for me, using this, let them and let me to just hit the pause and not respond and not go down a death spiral in my mind. And let the emotions come up, take a breath, let it fall. Sleep. Sleep, go outside, put the phone down. This, I've been working on this for a year. and it's changing the game. And one of the things that I think you can, and here's the thing to understand, this is a skill that you have to be taught. When you're a child,

you don't know how to process your emotions, which is why it is the responsibility of an adult to help a child process emotions in a healthy way. But if they're not modeling it, and they don't know how to even talk about it. Correct. You don't have that skill. Yes.

Nobody's parents knew how to do this. They weren't taught it. So they didn't teach it to you. And I didn't learn this until I was 54 years old. And I've done every therapeutic modality in the book, from EMDR to the MAPS protocol with psychedelics to talk therapy. And the interesting thing about therapy is it's very helpful for understanding things. But when you're talking about your issues, you're using your prefrontal cortex and your present. When you're in an emotionally reactive mode, a different part of your brain is online,

which is why you can't access the tools very often that you unpacked in therapy and you find yourself barfing all over the people you care about. That's why therapy isn't enough for a lot of people. Yes. Well, I actually prefer a neck down approach. See, I personally think we're obsessed with neck up and talking and thinking about the problems. And the true healing and change happens in the body from the neck down. And I love the let them theory because it stops you from going neck up.

When you say let them, you stop the cascade of bitching and judgment. When you say, let me, you drop back into your body and remind yourself that you do have agency and power here. And it's something that's so simple that you can access it even in a meltdown. And so to me, this is the single biggest benefit of this. Because if you're somebody that can start to learn how to stay steady inside your body and in yourself, no matter what idiot or narcissist or political person is out there or bigot, because we can't control them.

So don't waste a single freaking second of your life. life trying to. The power is in here. And when you shift your energy, like, I think a lot about families and friend groups and work environments. And, you know, I think about relationships like a spider web, right? And if you're out in the woods in the morning and you see the dew on the spider web, why is it that the challenging person is the one that tap, tap, taps the web and shakes all the do off? I have a different opinion. I believe the opposite is true. See, I think, that you bring the weather. And if you're a steady, powerful, graceful, peaceful, confident person, because you're in control of your emotions and you know what's in your

control and what's not, you know what drama you're not involved in, you know, like, what is worth your time and not, I believe you have more power than the most challenging person in the room. Because control breeds more control. Peace breeds more peace. people are attracted to light. We're afraid of things that are dark. And so when you start to get a handle on this, it's unbelievable how it shifts dynamics. And, you know, I say you can't change another person, but I didn't say you couldn't influence them. And so an example that I love that made a lot of sense to me because, look, I've wanted my kids to be more motivated. I want my husband to stop asking stupid questions. I want, you know, like, they want me to change. But when I'm

I understood the power of influence, and this is where the let them theory comes in, and you just let people be. So, like, I want you to think of somebody in your life that you really wish would change. Whether you want a kid... Sitting right there. Okay, you. What do you want to have them change about them? But I think you know this already, so... Yeah. Where do you even start? I guess this is very long. You know, I wish that... I had a trello board. No, I wish that Jonathan would consider me...

other people more when he's making plans. Okay. You just make plans? I don't know if I just make plans, but I spent a lot of years catering to absolutely everyone else and feeling like if I just do this or just do that and I try to put my finger in all the holes in the dam

and before I would think about myself. I mean, like, I don't know what I want because what I want will be best if I just make sure everyone else is tended to. Believe it or not, it was a revelation to me that this is most men. I was just like, I don't want them to react. I don't want her to cry. I don't want that tantrum to happen. I don't want my parents to be upset with me.

And so constantly scanning, constantly. And so it's been the last couple of few years more than that, that I'm like, I got to get clear on what I want and see how I can fit everything else around it. So it's like, oh, my son has a tennis tournament. I'm going to go with him. These are the times. This is where I'm going. But he's a little bit iron ran now. It's a little bit of objectivism on here. Well, this is a slightly, well, I'll give you what has worked in my marriage. So being ADHD, I'm a mess and I run late. And if you look at my husband's bathroom counter, it's like a Zen hotel. If you look at mine, it's like a CVS aisle tipped over. And he wishes I were cleaner. He wishes I,

wouldn't like walk to the waste paper basket as I'm blowing my nose and then get a text and then put the Kleenex on the counter. And it wasn't until he sat down and explained the impact of that on me. See, there's a difference between what you intend and the impact it has on somebody else. And so you do have to let them be who they are. So you are a person who is learning to put yourself first. you're a person that is prioritizing your knees, so we're going to let you. But then it's on you to sit down and say, when this happens, this is the impact on me. And when Chris said to me, every time I see a Kleenex or I see your crap migrate to my sink, it makes me feel like you think I'm the maid.

And it's like a giant middle finger from you. That's not what I intended. So when I know the impact to somebody that I care about is not what I am. intended, I am now motivated to do something. Now, here's where it gets interesting. Chris still has to let Mel be a Mel. And if I don't respond and I don't course correct, after somebody tells me something that important, I am revealing to Chris that I don't care about him. And then Chris has to, then I have to, like, and then Chris, now it's on Chris. Is this something I can live with? because people reveal who they are and what they care about through their behavior.

And you always get to choose whether or not this is just something you're bitching about. So it's the 69% of the things that the Gottman research says are never going to be resolved. But it's not a deal breaker. Or is this in the category of behavior where I'm either giving up on some dream for my life or it's a misalignment of values, which is a different story? And sometimes it needs more than one conversation. Of course. Because people are in their sight.

Yes. People are in their flow and you don't think that the tissue is going to upset Chris that much. And you have to sort of get it into your... And here's the thing. I'm going to tell you something. The only way you know if it's no longer an issue is if you can end your bitching about it. At some point, Chris has had to say, all the other stuff that Mel brings to my life outweighs the Kleenexes on the counter. What you focus on grows.

Yes. Yes. Acceptance is the answer to all my problems today. It's what you focus on grows. The other thing that I wanted to point out is that the reason why it's so important to learn how to let people be who they are and love them where they are and where they're not is because if you look at the research on the power of your influence, I want to give an example because this one made a big difference for me, if you're sitting at work and you're tap, tap, tap,

tap, tap, tap, and you're working through lunch and you're shoving a sandwich in your mouth, and you see a colleague get up and they go for a walk every day, and then they come back, and they're refreshed and happy, and you keep working and weeks go by. And then all of a sudden one day, you're going to look up and look out the window and go, I think I'm going to go for a walk. But here's the interesting thing. You think it's your idea. You don't credit your colleague, but it was actually your colleague's influence that gave you that idea.

And so particularly with people that you care about, when it comes to them changing, first of all, understand that people change when they're ready to change, when they feel like changing. people do well when they can. And if they're not doing well, it's because there's some skill or there's something going on in their life that makes them not able to do well right now. But you also have to create enough space so that it's their idea. You know, your adult kid that's struggling in school knows they're struggling. Of course they want to do better. Of course they feel pressure not only from the people at school and pressure of knowing that they're not doing well,

But now they feel your judgment too, even though you're well-intentioned, which just makes somebody feel more paralyzed. And most of us, like, stomp up the stairs and why aren't you motivated? And it's not about will. It's usually about some skill. And we don't have the conversation from the standpoint of let them be who they are and then let me have a different conversation. Let me apologize for the pressure. And let me actually lean in and ask. How do you feel about this?

And what do you want to do about this? Because when somebody is asked what they want to do about something, what's happening is you're allowing that friction that somebody feels to be internal instead of it being friction from you. And that then creates the space for somebody to move toward change because it has to be their idea. Because we've all been in the situation where somebody wants us to change. It's annoying as fuck. You're literally like, I got this. I'll go for a walk when I want to. Don't fucking tell me what to do.

And so you enter the standoff. And then when you start to feel like maybe you want to go root and free, maybe you want to stop drinking, you don't do it because you also don't want people to know, I don't even do it. And so there has to be enough space where you feel accepted for you to start to galvanize the desire to do it for you. I wonder if you can clarify two things. on the one hand, let them is not let them abuse me. Oh, hell no, it's the opposite. So can you, yeah, can you clarify that? Because I think a lot of people would be like, I'm in a relationship and he keeps cheating on me and I don't know what to do.

Right. Just let him cheat on me. Yes. Not what this. Right. So can you give us the other side of that? I think one of the biggest things that keeps people in toxic dynamics in relationships, whether it's dating or it's a situation where somebody's disrespecting you through cheating or gaslighting or whatever it may be. is excusing away behavior.

And so it's challenging because I do want to take responsibility for the fact that one of the reasons why people get stuck in cycles of abuse is because it's the same programming of intermittent rewards that is present in addiction online and with gambling. Like that cycle of you're a monster and now you're apologizing and now things are quiet and now all of a sudden you're a monster again, that sort of intermittent nature of of, but they're nice, but now they're terrifying, but they're kind, and now they're abusing me. It's also what happens when you grew up in an abusive home. You'll get a little, enough love to like keep you fawning and keep you there, but then also it, you can't get out. And I think it's

important to say that because it's not your fault. Right. And there's no character deficiency. This is actually fucking with your brain circuitry. And so the let them theory and saying let them is a very important tool because I want you to break free of that circuitry and do the that's really hard, which is to recognize that this person, they are who they are. This isn't changing. No amount of apologies are going to change what's happening. Their behavior has told you exactly who they are, period. They're not going to change for you. They're not going to change for the children. It's not happening. And it is important for you to wake up and recognize that no amount of hoping is going to change this situation. No apology is going to erase what happened. And the only

apology that counts is a change in behavior, which this person has not done. And so looking at the other person as the source of the power in the change is moronic. And it's actually self-abuse. Looking at yourself and saying, let me see this clearly. Let me accept the behavior as who this person is. And now let me, with very clear eyes, say to myself, is this what I deserve? Some people say yes because of traumatic history. And so deserve is probably the wrong word. Is this what I want? And maybe not even what. Is this a turnoff? Hell, yes, it is. And so when you come back and say, this is who this person is, is this what I want for my life? And if you're really stuck with kids, I would remind you that your kids are watching. And if you wouldn't want this for your children,

do not stay in it because you are modeling something. And this is why it's not about allowing anything. It's about recognizing what's happening and prompting yourself to understand that no matter how scary it is, no matter how lost you feel, no matter how alone you are, how much abuse you've taken, that you have a responsibility to yourself, the ability to respond, and you have the ability to choose something better. And a lot of times, that means leaving and accepting who this person is and also acknowledging this is. And letting them be who they are, but not in your home. Correct. Right. Yeah. And that's, that's not an easy thing to do. The other thing I wanted you to sort of help clarify in terms of kids. Yes. And I think there's kind of an age.

at which it's a little bit, you know, hard. Like, you wouldn't, you wouldn't behave with your 20-year-old the way you would with a three-year-old. Yeah, this is not a book for kids. Right. This is a book for adults. But I really resonated. You gave an example about your son's prom.

Yes. And it's funny because I had the same conversation about a corsage with my kid. And he was like, no, I don't want it. And I was like, how could you not want it? Like, it's 1943. What do you mean? You buy the girl a corsot. Like, whatever.

Uh-huh. It's crazy about it. Same. And I ended up like, I backed off. me of like the let them when you're a parent or even if it's someone that you love, let's say that is not your child but not your partner, right? You get to let other people have the dignity to make mistakes, to have their own path to see what's working. Yeah. And to let them decide how they want to go. And that's so hard when it's your kid. Yes. Because like I want you to,

can you explain a little bit. Like flesh it out. Why is that so hard? Because, like, obviously, I think it reflects, it reflects on me also, right? Meaning, like, he needs to do this so that I know that I did okay, right? It comes back to control. Yep. So you feel safe. We all do.

If we're in control of ourselves, our decisions, the environment, and that extends to people and especially children. And as a parent, you are responsible for their safety. you are responsible for giving them structure and food and shelter. You are responsible for helping them understand and regulate their emotions. In many ways, you control them. Yes. And I believe you're responsible for helping them figure out who they are

and helping them understand the importance of decision-making. And the only way you understand the importance of decision-making is to feel the consequences of your decisions. And one of the things that has been a huge, eye-opener for me is every time I step in and try to solve one of my kids' problems, or I allow them to not face something, whether it's, I remember my daughter got really drunk, and she, this is one of the best parenting moves I think I've ever made. She got really wasted in high school. And I'm talking puking the whole ride home, the whole nine yards, just an

absolute dead weight on the window bench. And so what did I? I didn't ground her. I made her go to lacrosse trials. Amazing. Because the greatest teacher is life. And the fastest way people learn is to feel the full weight of their decisions and the consequences that come with them. And it's a very hard thing to do, but what I have learned is this. When you step in and solve your kids' problems, where you insulate them from hardship in life, you are actually saying to them, I don't believe in your ability to do this. And that's a huge mistake. I have learned through the Let Them Theory to take what I call an arm around the shoulder approach. I don't block and tackle. I will walk by your side and put my arm around you, but you have to face the things.

And one of the things that has helped me a lot is because I'm a problem solver because I feel anxious when something feels uncertain. and it makes me feel safer when, you know, things are all handled. And so I have spent too much of my life as a parent and as a spouse solving everything, just jumping at, not even allowing people the grace and the space to make decisions for themselves. And learning how to just go, let them, let them not be motivated. Let them, like, figure out what it's like to sit home all summer because they didn't, motivate and get a job, and then they don't have money. And then the hardest part for a parent is let them actually struggle financially and don't pay for it. And when somebody feels pain and hardship,

it galvanizes intrinsic motivation to do better. And I personally believe, I choose to believe in the endless amazing potential that people have. I choose to believe that my kids are stronger than they think that they are. And I choose to believe that if I stand by their side, instead of clearing the way, that they will discover their strength faster. And learning to say, let them. And then I always have to say, let me shut up. Let me not step in. You know, my daughter, when we were writing this book, went through the biggest heartbreak of her life. And we were working on the last section of the book that is all about using Let Them for Love. And we had already started the heartbreak.

She was like, this is horseshit. I hate this advice. And it was absolutely unbelievable to go through this experience. Because here you have somebody in a deeply depressive state. It was a two-year-long relationship where we're in love with him. His parents are in love with her. The breakup happens.

You know, we're removing the photos from the digital camera. Like everybody's, it's grief. because you're having to unlearn your life with this person. And watching your child go through a depressive state, you would literally step in front of a train to take away that pain. Don't do it. Don't do it. Let them grieve.

Let them stay in bed for days. And have the arm around you approach. Because when you do that, you're actually giving them the space to purpose. to process and to feel and to move through something while saying, I'm here with you. And there are so many times where I would catch myself wanting to solve it. And instead, I would start to say,

do you need me to listen? Or do you want some advice? And 99% of the time, she would just say, just shut up. I just need you to sit here with me. And when you do that, what's so cool is that we don't allow people to truly discover their potential because we think we know better or because we think we can help them. And if you really flip this and start to realize the people around

you have so much greater capacity and maybe what's missing is a little space for them to discover it for themselves. Mel, we can't thank you enough for being here. I mean, we've gotten so much just from following you, and I just feel like your arm is around us. I feel like that's really what it feels like. The book is the let them theory, and it really is, it's unbelievable. The tools are incredibly simple and really profound. And I really, I got a lot out of it, and I can't wait to tell him all the things that I think are appropriate that he should know about it. Thank you for that.

That means a lot to me. It was really, I really loved it. So thank you and thank you for being here. And tell the people where they can find you for more of you. Anywhere. Literally, anywhere. Great. I really hope the next time you're on the East Coast that you'll let me know so we can have you on the podcast.

We would love to. Mel, I'm just really struck. For me personally, you're the person throwing the party. I just watch what you're doing and just how you share such optimism and how you connect. with your audience and how present you are. And, you know, I don't know you before today, but I've watched so much of your stuff and I'm just really moved by both the way you synthesize information and just how much hope you bring to people. And I'm just, it's just beautiful. Thank you. It's my and biolics breakdown. She's going to break it down for you. She's got a neuroscience,

Ph. Ph.D. or two. One fiction. And now she's going to break down.