Mayim Bialik's Breakdown - Byron Katie: Find Out What is True

Episode Date: May 24, 2022

Byron Katie (speaker, author of Loving What Is Now) teaches us the systematic process (i.e. "The Work") she uses to examine any positive or negative thought, from parenting and relationships to work and finances, to test what is and isn’t valid. She opens up about the awakening she experienced while lying on the floor of a halfway house while being treated for disordered eating, and how that revelation allowed her to overcome depression and suicidal thoughts, while reshaping every area of her life. Byron guides us through the practice of identifying and questioning thoughts that can lead to personal suffering and explains how our underlying beliefs may unknowingly fuel our emotions. She applies "The Work" processes to practical examples from Mayim and Jonathans’ lives while highlighting the importance of meditation, slowing down to listen, and readiness to put aside judgements, fear, and resentment. Byron Katie's Live Zooms: https://thework.com/at-home-with-byron-katie/ BialikBreakdown.com YouTube.com/mayimbialik Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I know what that is and it's hell. And it feels like being taken advantage of, not being appreciated. It's horrible when you're exhausted and work as hard as you do. It's hard. Thank you. I feel hurt. Oh, honey. Oh, boy.

You know, what's true is true. It is true that I work hard. And he won't pick up the socks. That's true. And he doesn't have to pick up the socks. That's also true. Right. Right.

Hi, I'm Myambiolic and welcome to my breakdown. This is the place where we break things down so you don't have to. It's Myambialic's breakdown. She's going to break it down for you. Because you know she knows a thing or two. And now she's going to break... We're going to speak to a very special person today who had a very, very significant breakdown, which led to a very, very significant revelation that,

not only changed her life, but has changed the lives of thousands and thousands and thousands of people all over the world with the work. But first, let's say hello to my favorite piece of work, Jonathan Cohen. Hello, Ma'am. Hi. We're talking to Byron Katie today. This is a very big deal. It's huge. If people don't know who she is, don't feel bad. The people who talk about Byron Katie talk about her the way they talk about Glennon Doyle, Brené Brown. I've heard some people talk about her the way people talk about Eckartoulli. Eckartouli. She is a person who does not have a religion.

She does not have, she has a center in Ohio, California. She had an experience at the bottom of a 10-year spiral of depression and self-loathing. She was in a halfway house where she was being treated for more than one addiction. And she said she had a moment where kind of everything that she had defined ceased to be. And what took its place was a very deep understanding that she was essentially simply a prisoner of her own thoughts. And she went home to her family a different woman. Her children did not recognize her in several senses of the word. and she came up with a systematic process by which to examine any thought, positive or negative, in your life.

Those are called the four questions, not those four questions from Passover, different four questions. And her work is called The Work with a capital W. There are workshops, there are courses. You can be at home with bK.com. You can go there and literally just have a Zoom with this person. She very famously puts this information out there into the world for all to share. Imagine asking yourself if most of what you think isn't true. I mean, like, pick a thought.

Pick a thought. Let's just pick one right now. You pick one. Well, one of the things I want to talk to her about is all the things about the conflict with my children. I got a lot of thoughts about that. Why they won't do what I want them to and what it means. And actually, this is something I'd like to sort of tease. I think in therapy, these are called organizing principles.

She calls them underlying beliefs. For example, here, here's a really good one. My children ignore me when I ask them to put their things away. So what are the thoughts that we actually have? Children should respect adults. People should respect me. People should follow my directions. My direction is what's best for other people.

If someone ignores me, that means they don't respect me. Automatic. This stuff is all automatic running in the background. and it's fueling our emotions. Right. Here, my children don't eat or appreciate the food. I prepare for them. So the thoughts are children shouldn't make their own decisions about what to eat, right?

I should. I need to be appreciated and people's tastes should shift when I say so. But the work is not just for parenting. That was just a set of examples that I really liked about parenting. For relationships? It can be about relationships about work, finances, like literally anything you can apply this work to it. And Byron Katie, for over three.

three decades, you know, has been both living this and writing about it and teaching it to other people. And it is available for free. It's not like she's like, I've got this secret information. It is very difficult work. This is not like, oh, I'm going to read this book and like, I'll figure everything out. It is very, very rigorous work. Why is this so difficult? Because you're, I'll answer my own question. Okay. Because all of these assumptions. Jonathan thinks he knows everything are happening. But I'm only imprisoned by the fact that I think he knows everything. Exactly. I don't need to say anymore. She has many books. Loving What Is is the one that first introduced the world to the work.

She published that in 2003, and this is a revised edition. She also has written a children's book, which is really, really cool. There's one which is a modern retelling of Chicken Little, reimagined through the lens of the work. And also, Tiger Tiger, is it true? So, you know, her belief is that this kind of analysis can even start when she, children are very young. She talks a lot about the work being meditation. It's a lot about being quiet. There's a real stillness to her. Makes me very uncomfortable because I'm not a still person. One of the most powerful examples is a woman who was horribly abused by her father and her father had

passed away. But, you know, this memory of what he did to her was still with her. And the work is not telling you to forget. It's not telling you to forgive. It's not at all about that. It's about being ready and open to putting aside judgments, fear, and resentment. A lot of 12-step stuff that resonates with anyone, you know, who has experienced a 12-step programs. And the idea really is to come clean with yourself about what actually bothers you about other people, which is usually things that bother us about ourselves. It's also about accessing all this additional information and listening with a different skill set than most of us have ever been trained to do. I think it can help a lot of people. It's very, very interesting and we're so, so thrilled to have

Byron Katie with us. Break it down. Before we get started, I'm very interested. Is this a new thing, the at home with bK.com? Yeah. I guess it was like four days into shutdown here with COVID. We, you know, I just said, you know, let's zoom it. So you just do zooms from 9 to 10. What is it? Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. Yeah.

Do you take questions? Like, what's the format? Yeah. Whatever shows up. That's it. No prep. That's amazing. That's what I want our show to be.

How many people show up? I mean, on average, I'm sure it varies, but. Oh, gosh, it varies. Three to 500. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. We just kind of show up, hang out, just, test what's valid and what isn't.

That's really incredible. For more information, you can go to thework.com and find out about at home with bK.com. But it's really one of the things that's so special about the work and the work that you do, both work with the uppercase W and lowercase. And I think is exemplified by even just the at home with BK. You believe that you have found something that should be freely shared with people. It's a way to identify and question all the thoughts, the thoughts that cause our suffering,

are discontent, our depression. Now, for thousands of years, you know, I mean, for all of the human experience, we've been trying to understand, you know, our purpose here, what we're doing, how we do it, how essentially we can do it better, whether that's family interactions or work or just, you know, kind of being humans on this planet. and you have a really fascinating story in that you received, these are my words. You know, you're very specific and particular with words, which is very important to be. You experienced nothing short of what most of us would describe as a revelation.

You had, you know, a moment where things became clear in a way that they previously had not. And while I'm sure you are not, you know, a perfect human being and you're not a saint, none of us are, for the most part, that's been the path that you have walked since that moment. Yeah. Is that accurate? Yes. And the short version is I saw that when I believe my thoughts, I suffered and when I questioned them, I didn't. And I've come to see that this is true for every human being. Actually, I was on the floor.

and after years of depression, one moment I was on the floor because I didn't, I was so full of self-hatred, I didn't believe I even deserved a bed to sleep and my self-esteem was so low. And all of a sudden,

you know, I was wakened out of this dead sleep, a cockroach rolled over my foot of all things. And I opened my eyes and there was no identity there, no self there. There was nothing there. I could only see that. hindsight. But then I saw, there was a window and I saw the light coming through it. And before I saw it, it was named. And then I saw it. It's like window. And then I could see it. And then I saw that

literally, until I believed it, I couldn't see it. And so like right now, if I say watermelon to you, you see an image of watermelon. So that's all that happened to me on the floor. Just that. So it was the four questions and turnarounds, this particular inquiry, it came off the floor with me. And it was just built in.

And it wasn't like, is it true? It was an experience, like 30, something years ago to today. And I sit in the practice like I invite everyone else to do. I sit in this practice of stillness as I sit in these questions. Also, you mentioned the truth, but they didn't tell us, or I had that thought. No one told us, what truth? What truth?

The truth has set me free. What are they talking about? And so I saw on the floor. And I've been able to test what is true for me, which is all I can do, question my own experience, and share it with people. It was so powerful that my physical body shifted. It changed over time, my choices and what I ate, how I live. It shaped, it reshaped everything. and I supported that.

I didn't fight against it. It's just like I just trusted this gift that just kept giving as I continue to do. My MBialx Breakdown is supported by Superpower. We all know the feeling of leaving a doctor's office and kind of feeling like we didn't get anything out of the experience that was useful. Maybe they're like, you're fine, drink more water. There's no real data.

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but for a limited time, our listeners get an additional $20 off with the code break. Head to superpower.com. Use the code break at checkout for $20 off your membership. And after you sign up, they'll ask how you heard about them. Make sure to mention my ambiotic breakdown to help support the show. Let's go back because, you know, I also want to make clear that so much of you, your writing and what you do and kind of who you are, it is not a religious process by any stretch of the imagination. And yet there's a real kind of reverence to this kind of new way of

looking and seeing. But I want to kind of put it in a little bit of a framework. So this experience, as it were, happened in 1986. Is that correct? Take us back to before 1980s. Like, where were you raised? Like, what was your childhood roughly like? You know, I'm just curious. Like, it was just all just average. And then my low self-esteem and then marriage and then a divorce and three children. And that was horrific. It started a downhill cycle that I didn't know how to stop. And then 10 years of just mostly, if I wouldn't say all, just suicidal. like the suicide looked like the only way out of the torture I was in. Were you working at that time? Like were you a professional woman?

Were you an at-home mom? I'm just trying to kind of get a little bit of a framework of, you know, how you arrive to be in a place of such receptivity. Well, it was really weird. I could just always make money. I just could always do that. I just could do that. And I was just really good at it, but that was no sense.

solution for me. So for those 10 years, I guess that's sort of what I'm curious about. You were in a halfway house is sort of the, so you were not living at home at the time that this happened. No, I was on the floor of this halfway house for eating disorders. It was just like handed to me on the floor. And it came to me freely by some grace. You know, I noticed that's all I like. That's all I can admit to, I noticed. And it so radically shifted me that I, that I, even my children didn't recognize me. They kept waiting for the old mom to come back. And here was this, this, something else inhabiting this body. That's what it was like for them and my husband at the time. Yeah. One of the things you said is that your, your children were, your children were all of a sudden,

kind of able to and interested in expressing things that they had, let's say, taken issue with, that you were in a new way kind of able to receive. And, you know, we both have children separately. But that is both thrilling and potentially exhilarating and terrifying. What was that like? I mean, you were that different that you were able to receive it. They'd say something. And I didn't come back with an attitude or anger or judgment. And they began to trust it. And so they became more courageous with it. And more and more and more.

And so they were allowed to just empty themselves without punishment. And another way of saying that is, I listened. And if I didn't recall the situation that they were, let's say, throwing at me, I would ask them to tell me more. And often, or depending on which one, altogether, often, there were a lot of tears. I got to meet their mother, and they all three had a different mother. And it was not easy for all three of them. They all three had a different mother, and it was this body.

I just wanted to be there for them. And I was able to in this way. It's never too late. And then I was able to admit it and make it right with them. And I'm still doing that today. I have a thing that runs in my head is I, oh, I owe, it's off to work I go. Yeah, I don't want anyone to suffer when there's a way out of suffering. And so I continue to do this.

I just want to say back what I was hearing in case anyone was missing what you were saying, that when you got to meet their mother, you got to see their experience of your behavior. Exactly so. And so much of your previous interactions with them was probably a reaction or a, you don't want to see your behavior. And so you're, you know, a child does something that gets on our nerves and we think we have to yell or punish them or have this big response. And what you're saying is that you were able to come from a responsive open spot and hear, how is, how is. your behavior had been impacting them, which is, you know, it's profound. Most people don't have the ability to stop reacting. It's so profound. And so many of the things that they were

sharing with me is, and my reaction, I thought that's what a good parent did. We scold. We get sharp, but only for their own good. And all of, and then I learned, you know, I began to, parent myself and they benefit from it still to this day. We all do. I'm a listener. I'm not a teacher. Of course, I can afford to say that my children are grown, but I'm that way with my grandchildren as well. They're teaching me. I'm very clear about that. They teach me how to have fun. They teach me how to be innocent. They teach me unconditional love. They teach me how to love a butterfly. I mean, I'm in.

I'm in. I'm seeing the world from new eyes always. And it's a beautiful thing. I've come to see that other than what we are thinking about this world, it's a friendly universe. And that's not something that can be taught. That's something that we can come to understand those of us with open minds. And an open mind is a way of saying.

a fearless state of mind. Are you a religious person? Were you a religious person at the time, let's say, that 1986 happened? No. My mother sent us to Sunday school. I'd have to say rarely, maybe for a couple of years or so. So I had that background. And I remember some of the songs.

And also my aunts and grandmother and mother, when we were taking cards. rides. They would sing, you know, what they were referring to, that old-time religion. And so I learned those songs. Well, and I guess I was also wondering because, as I said, there's so much to this revelation, you know, there's so much to it that, and there's so much to the work, and I'm holding, loving what is, in particular, that for many people seek it in religion, many people seek it in God. Many people go to the kind of work that you do in, you know, extensive psychoanalysis or 12-step programs. And, you know, someone has said all of the 12 steps are somewhere in your four questions, you know. Yes, I, I hear that. In fact, on at home today, a woman, on that worksheet,

I have, there's six questions on it. And then they question what they, what they, what they have filled in there what they've answered. They question that. And then when they turn it around, it's very profound. Well, and so, you know, for people who may not be familiar with kind of the specifics, and as I said, one of the things that I really appreciate so much about what you do is that it's right here. Like, it's in this book. It's on your website. The notion is not, you know, that you are a person that people need to give you something to get this truth. You believe that if people honestly and rigorously apply themselves essentially to these four questions, right, and then the worksheets and the work that comes from, and it is work.

There's nothing like, there's no sprinkling of fairy dust here. No, no, this is, whoa, this is not that this is about just standing in yourself. It's very hungling. So the four questions, so basically for anything, you can do this for any thought, right? Any thought. The four questions are, is it true? Is what I'm thinking true? Right.

Is what I'm thinking true? The second question, can you absolutely know it's true? The third question, how do you react? Meaning what happens when you believe that thought? And the fourth question is. And this is a meditative process. It's a practice in stillness. How do I react when I believe the thought?

I notice how I treat in this situation, him. Right. And the emotions that happen in me. And then those images of past that the ego offers up and future that the ego offers up. And then I begin to see that it's not him, that that's within me. What is within me?

You know, this movie, this egos play. And how do I treat that person when I believe the thought. And then the guilt we feel afterward, because that is like a built-in system here. And the guilt we feel afterwards. So we have to come back at them that much harder. And so we talk about them to other people and pass it on. And the fourth question being, who or what would you be without the thought? And in loving what is, this is a really, really helpful part of the book and a large part of the book is actual things that people have come to you with and it's the transcripts of how you work those four questions on a variety of situations. Everything

from I had a sexually abusive father who is dead and still this is ruining my life. Everything from that to my boss is bothering me. I don't know how to make decisions about finances and everything gets those four questions applied to it. And almost always the answer to that fourth question is, I'd be a much happier person if I didn't have these thoughts, right? And some of us don't even know, you know, the absence of suffering is, but if we get still enough, it's shown to us who we are without it. It's, oh, my goodness. And is that good to know other than what I'm thinking and believing isn't life amazing. Right. Jonathan, over to you. I want to extend a little bit of an olive branch to someone who might not be right in the conversation, like totally understand

what we're talking about. Yeah, I'm so glad that you bring that up, Jonathan. We're moving fast here, and this is not easy to talk about. That's just a thought. Jonathan always thinks I'm moving too fast, But who would you be without that thought? I'm going to be quiet. I'm going to be quiet. I have a small suspicion that this is a bit of an insider's conversation because the three of us, obviously you created it and the two of us have had some exposure and been reading. And the ideas are similar or familiar to other ways of self discovery that we hold of in high regard. But to set the context to say to anyone, is this thought true?

Someone may think, of course it's true because I'm thinking it and I have proof and reality. Give an example, Jonathan. It could be that I'm justified in, you know, reprimanding my kid. I had a moment this weekend where I'm packing up and I'm going somewhere and I'm like, I asked him six times to do something and he's like on his phone and I've asked him to put his phone down at a certain point I get frustrated. And like, that's objective. Like, look, I have all the data.

I asked him nicely. But what was your thought when you, when you reprimended him? My thought is he's not listening to me. So now let's walk through that. Be there now. Imagine you in that situation that you just described to us. Look at him. He's not listening to you.

No, I totally know exactly where I'm going. And I want to articulate that all the thoughts that I'm about to share right now happened without even thinking about them. They happened so quickly and I can go back in stillness now and know exactly what they were. It was, I've told them this so many times. He's not listening to me. He's, I regret getting him that fun. I give him too much leeway on it.

It's getting out of control. Okay, so now let's look at how do you treat him when what you just said is running through you? And you're believing the thought he's not listening to me. How do you treat him? Get really still and I treat him much more aggressively. I try and what do you say? What do you say? Get off your phone.

I've asked you to get off your phone nicely. I'm not sure how else to communicate. You defend. You defend. Absolutely defend. You're telling them what he already knows. And I explain, I'm going, I'm packing up where I have to get to the airport. There's a thousand things going through my mind.

I'm sorry I can't like look at the thing you're showing me right now. Okay. So now slow way down and see you there and look at him. Look at you. Yeah. He is like has this big open heart and just wants to connect and is, you know, sad that I'm leaving and sad that we're in this transition. and there's, he's reacting to how flustered I am and he's looking for a connection point. That sounds more like you than him when you're irritated with him.

How so? I don't know. It's just, it's just, um, usually our children, when we're irritated and rushing them and irritated, don't look that happy with us. but but on oh you're asking what he looked like when i was like that no he he is he's you know not as open and receptive and i'm saying sort of underneath that because he's responding to me his drive is how do you react the question is how do you react what happens when you believe the thought he's not listening to me and um and you described it not right or wrong this is an exercise and

stillness and going back and looking at one's self. Okay, so let's slow it way down and let's turn it around and check it out and be there now. Look at him in that situation where you're irritated. He's not listening to me. Turned around, he is listening to me. Now, that doesn't mean he is. Check it out. It is your truth that sets you free.

I mean, he's listening very clearly to things that I'm not saying, meaning that he's listening to my energy. He's listening to my anxiety. He's listening to the fact that my brain is scattered across 15 things and not acknowledging our reality of the situation, which is that there's a transitional transition happening. So he is listening to me in that situation and you're believing he's not. Yeah. So waking up to, he is listening to me. Now I have a space to get still. What have I just said? What am I getting across when I'm irritated to my son in this situation, when I'm about to lose him for until the next visit?

You know what? Just being still in that. And then another turnaround, he's not listening to me. and then just softly, I'm not listening to him. And so be there now, Jonathan. And what was he saying? Through his body language or his words, maybe you miss something, maybe not.

I'm not listening to him. I mean, he was being very clear that he needed something from me that I wasn't communicating. He needed more connection. He needed, you know, he was trying over and over again to engage and interact after at first he was on his phone not engaging and then he began to engage and engage and engage to the point of annoyance because he wasn't doing the thing that I quote unquote needed him to do but he was yeah I was not listening to him at all and that's it and then anywhere you weren't listening you can always go back it's nothing you have to do but you remember

sweetheart when we were packing go and and I was I was so irritated with you. I apologize for that. I wasn't listening to you. And I want you to know that that I want to hear everything you say. And if I missed anything, would you tell me now? Me not listening to him, someone could say, well, he didn't communicate in quote unquote, you know, he didn't say, dad, I need X, Y, and Z the way that we're used to someone stating. There's so much communication that we're not paying attention to. Exactly. So, Jonathan, that's like bingo. And where I sort of started this in terms of let's set a stage for people to understand, most of us, I would say, and I want to sort of posit this to you

and to see if it's accurate, most of us are caught in a delusion or false narrative. And the way that we interpret our experience is, I don't want to say wrong, but it is inaccurate. there it is. So I just wanted to set that because it gives like a broader context to someone who may not be like, oh, I totally understand what we're doing here. But it's like breaking down the way that we make meaning out of our situations and out of the interactions in our lives and then realizing, wait a second, the meaning that I may have made has all of this automatic pre-programming that may not be accurate.

Yeah. And it's, the ego is going to convince us. You know, the ego is, I see the ego, I've come to see the ego as a terrified child. You know, it's fighting for, ego is a term for mind, for thinking, for mind. And that's not body, that's not substance. That's not a thing. object. So mind, how can mind be I? How can mind be something if it's not I? I am. You are wrong, I think. You are right. I think. There's something wrong with you. I think. The eagle doesn't

sleep. A very good friend of mine who actually helped me start my YouTube channel. I mean, he started with kind of Eckhart Tolle and has worked his way around and has been talking to me a bit about the work for some time now. And what I've noticed is once you see the world kind of from this perspective and with these tools, what I've noticed is it's kind of hard for him to unsee it from the perspective of the work. Meaning, you know, if he and I are catching up and I kind of say something like, oh, my mom this or like, oh, Jonathan, that, or oh, my kids. It's like he has a very specific like, hmm. And it's, I say what?

And he will basically start applying the four questions to it. And it's very, you know, for for him and I think really the, you know, what the work kind of does is the idea is that there's not a situation that you can't apply this to. And the meaning that's sort of that like I'm, has there ever been a situation that someone. gave you where you threw up your hands and said the work doesn't work here. Well, yes. If I am on working with someone who is attached to what they're believing, then their mind's not open to inquiry. So it just, it only works for the mind that's open to the questions and they're only four. And and, and, but they're, they can be terrifying to, to, to the ego at first. It's going to want to own that turf. I'm going to take Jonathan's example

and show you what it looks like in my house, which is not at all as even tempered as Jonathan has described his. But one of the things that came to me is I had my first son when I was in grad school, literally working on my thesis. And, you know, I had my second son just after I got my my doctorate and you know life was very very hectic and nuts and my ex-husband I mean we were married at the time you know we didn't have help we were exhausted and we didn't have an abundance of money you know with which to buy all the things we needed have all the things you know have help like whatever you know whatever it was hard it was hard it was hard so we'll just say and there's a lot of harder I'm not saying that we had it the worst but I'm just saying given my mental

health history, you know, becoming a parent was extremely, you know, humbling and fantastic and complicated and also like trying to finish all, you know, my dissertation, whatever. It was very, very hard. And many of those years of my life were very hard. And it's something that, you know, I make a living amends to my children to the best of my ability every day for the help that I didn't get or meaning even emotionally, you know, psychiatrically, that was very hard for me. If anyone had said to me, with all due respect, Ms. Katie, if anyone had said to me, is it true that, you know, my ex-hout, like, he didn't do what I wanted, he didn't cook the dinner when I told him, you know, this didn't happen. This one is crying because he won't have a bath.

this one only wants to nurse and won't eat solids for 18 months. Like, I was not in a place of higher self. I mean, I know that. And it took me a very long time. But you're looking at what you're describing to me, is it true? Yes. Oh, I got a yes. It was true.

The answer to is it true is yes. This isn't, there's no trickery here. This is just, you know, the person. and sitting in the work and it's just oneself with oneself. Like your husband in that particular situation wouldn't do X. What I know now is, you know, there's a place of me being able to slow down, listen, be, be present. and most of my life, I have not had that space.

So one of the things that, you know, that worries me is, you know, when Jonathan sees me being, yes, sarcastic, snarky, reactive with my kids, you know, I have a 13-year-old who, he's been sticking it to me since he's like born. And I love him dearly and there are many beautiful places of connection that I have with him. but whatever button I've got, he pushes it. And, you know, it is exceedingly difficult for me to consistently, I'm just being honest, to have enough time, space, self-care, presence of mind to be my best self with that child. And I've had people say, oh, the answer is you need a nanny. The answer is you need a housekeeper.

If you didn't have to clean your toilets, you wouldn't be so frustrated with your kid, right? Why are you smirking? I also want to... It is true that he's smirking. I want to add, though, that you often, as you have more time and space, you tell me how he responds to you. Okay, so I need to quit my job is the only way that I can have the time and space to not work a 12-hour day

and then come home and deal with Mr. I really won't get off my phone and take the trash out. And the cat litter wasn't changed for the last four days. I asked him day one, it has not been changed. The cats could poop on his bed and he'll find a reason. Like I don't, I literally, I just, I don't know how many ways in times to ask. I mean, this is just a small example, but at a certain point, put your phone down, go do the litter, and you can cry all the way downstairs. I don't mind.

That's your responsibility in this family because we, like, it didn't happen. And I literally gave it. I turned it over to the universe and the litter didn't get changed. It just didn't. Well, eventually it did get changed. Who changed it? It still is not changed. Okay.

It will eventually change those who just notice who does change it. His older brother will do it and then say to me, Mama, I'm going to be in therapy because I had to pick up for my younger brother because he won't just do his chores. And that's also not a solution. I mean, I've mostly done the chores for this child. I'm, anyway, that's a thing. Well, it will get done.

He doesn't want to do anything, though. I had the thought that my daughter wouldn't do anything. And when I questioned it and turned it around, it wasn't true. She did do things. And none of them were to support the household. But she did do things. And then when I turned around again, I don't do, I don't, she doesn't do things, turned around. I don't do things.

I don't want to do things on weekends because I do them all week by myself. I mean, I'm being super honest. I change the litter all week. I do all those things all week. And yeah, I want that. I want us to be a family in that way. And it's also hard when you have one child who really wants to do chores and be like, this is my part of the family.

And the other one who's like, yeah, that's not the way I show. The way I show that we're a family is I'm on my phone until you make me get off. But you're making meaning from that, right? Like you have an association. There's like a whole story that leads to frustration about the fact that he's on his phone, which is I think part of part of this. If it's just that he's on his phone and he's going through something and he won't listen to you versus it's an affront to you and you work all week. And now it's about you and him in a power struggle.

Like those are totally different. And Loving What is I have a story, true story. And when the work found me, I had one out of three children. that would keep their room straight. Right. The socks. Is this the sock example? Yeah, the socks.

And I saw that they had absolutely no problem with it. And I'm for years going, pick up your socks. You can do this if you don't pick up your socks. And then they do it anyway. Pick up your socks. Pick up. And then I saw that they had no problem with it whatsoever, that I'm the one that had the problem with it.

I turned it around. I picked up their socks. looked at the floor, I had what I wanted. And I just continued to give me what I wanted. And found that the energy I put on, pick up your socks and all of that, it was easier to pick up the socks energy-wise. And what is also true is they all started, they all started picking up their socks. one of them already had been because it was not a big deal.

And they could walk through their, my daughter could walk through her bedroom without tripping over socks. And it was just, it made sense at some point. And I just never pointed it out again. It's not that they don't know what I want. Like you, I was very clear. Pick up your socks. Pick up your socks. if you don't pick up the socks.

But the whole thing is if they never learned to pick up their socks, I was the one with the problem and that's the point. And it was exhausting. And they learned how to do it from example. So I began to teach by example without even understanding. That's what I was doing. And that is just one small sample because he knows how hard you work. He knows what's on your back.

He knows you're going to do it or his brother will. And he's right. What's interesting, so fascinating, is if you take away how hard my aim works and how much is unerplayed and you take away the meaning from it and you remove the power struggle, what energy is available for connection if you're not in that dynamic with him. I'll be constantly doing chores all by myself. I mean, that will be my weekend. I mean, that's, that is, you know, I, I do.

I work very, very long days all week. And my weekends, yes, effectively will be me doing all the chores and then taking a nap and then, you know, making them lunch and then doing a couple more chores, maybe taking a walk and making them dinner and then doing more tours. You know, what I can say is, is that's, I know what that is and it's hell. And it feels like being taken advantage of, not being appreciated. It's horrible when you're exhausted and work as hard as you do. It's hard. Thank you. I feel hurt.

Oh, honey. Oh, boy. You know, what's true is true. It is true that I work hard. And he won't pick up the socks. That's true. And he doesn't have to pick up the socks. That's also true.

Right. Right. Everything we're talking about today seems to have a through line of listening more. slowing down how our automatic, for lack of a better word, meaning making machine is constantly running, whether it be the I am waking up or I have lists and adjectives for everything around me. My son, I, I, I, my daughter, my, my, me, me, me, I, I, the ego has nothing else to offer. And we've been conditioned over and over again to move faster and faster and consume more and more information. but there's this whole other skill set capability that we're underutilizing and we're not practiced

in, which is slowing down to listen. You know, you can listen. You can be still when you're running. You can be still when the whole world is talking to you. You can be still. And that's not to ignore what's going on. It's listening. Like my son might say, I love you, mom.

And oh, I love you too, honey. No, it's not like that. It's, I love you, mom. And listen. Listen. Listen. Without grabbing the space. Take it in.

And in that listening, there is an enormous, like, I can't even overstate this. It just seems like there's endless amounts of information that we're not receiving because we're so busy doing all the things that we're doing and consuming all this other information that we're missing. that we're missing out on a massive part of what it means to be human, is to listen and to receive and to explore this vast quantity of alternative data, I would say. I think a lot of old-fashioned thinkers, you know, let's say, you know, even our parents' generation had a very specific notion of like respect and you do what I say because I said it. You know, I'll give you something to cry about. I mean, these are, you know, these are the things that many of us have heard.

I've heard that one before. I'll give me something to cry about and laugh. Right. But I guess that that is something that, you know, runs through a lot of the way the work works in terms of, you know, what if your expectations of other people essentially were not plaguing you, whether it's I want him to be sober. I want her to pick up her socks. I want my, you know, parents to behave in a way that's completely opposite from the way they clearly want to behave. So here's my question. Is there ever a time when we are allowed to say, I, this behavior is not acceptable to me?

I you either get to change and be part of this or I would like to be alone. Of course, only you'd have to be stronger than I would like to be alone. Right. It would be I am going to be alone rather than threat. Right. Just say what's true and make sure it's true. Right. When you say it or, you know, there's nothing to trust there.

Right. Did you talk like this before your moment of revelation? in 1986. Oh, no. No. No. No. So did it just, did this moment happen? I was, I was, I just wanted the socks off the floor. Yeah, and I wanted them to do it. In loving what is, there's these kind of like single page like mic drops, as we call them. Nothing outside you can ever give you what you're looking for. That's profound. I mean, especially as a Western capitalist society, we essentially are raised to look outside of ourselves for things that make us happy. You know, things, him, her, you know, the wedding, the car, the job, the money. The perfect interview. The perfect

interview. And the last one is really beautiful. And it says, just keep coming home to yourself. You are the one you've been waiting for. Tell me sort of where, yeah, where did that come from for you? Well, the fourth question, who would I be without my story? You know, so my story is, I am Byron Katie and da-da-da-da-dan-da-da-d-don, and without that, I'm done-ta-dan-da-da-da. Who would I be without my story? In other words, without identification, okay? It's like woman sitting in chair with friends. I'll take it.

it's everything just it will do and the gratitude that comes how simple is life this is it and i don't want to miss it living in the past and future i like to say you want a little fear and terror get a get a future you want a little gilts and shame get a pass right here you know here i am Thank you so much. It's been such an honor to speak to you. And we're so excited and eager to get to share what you do and who you are with our listeners. And just thank you so much. Thank you for everything you went through that brought you to the work. And how beautiful that you share it again so freely with everyone who's willing to do the work.

Well, just hanging out with you too is thanks enough. What a trip. You do good work and I'm so grateful for that. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you for being so present with us today. It's been amazing. Stay well. Thank you.

I don't understand what just happened. She's amazing. Like, I had no issues. She's amazing. What didn't you understand? I don't understand anything about what just happened. What do you mean you don't understand anything? How do you just have a revelation and all of a sudden you see the world completely differently?

Like with a totally different vocabulary than you had before, you're an unrecognizable person. and you yourself don't even exist. Like she had this major, I mean, she had a dissociative episode that seems to have continued for the rest of her life. But she has like all this like, like Buddha wisdom. It was a good dissociation.

Oh, okay. From our breakdown to the one we hope you. What do you mean? No, we hope you do have this breakdown. All the time. You always say from our breakdown to the one we hope you never have. This is, we hope you have this type of breakdown,

which is really a massive awakening. But I really want to know, Like, what would... When people talk about spiritual awakening, conscious awakening, what do they mean? What, does this just happen every day to people? I think so, yeah. You think this happens every day. Oh my gosh, I understand everything about the universe, and I'm never going to go back to

the miserable naggy person that Miami is. I didn't say that, meaning I have no judgment about you being naggy. Is that true? Is it true? that you have no judgment. Is it true that you're an Aggie? Turn it around. It's true that you are notgy.

I don't think turning it around means blaming it on other people. There's definitely a skill involved in what she's doing. There's like that subtle shift. First of all, I love a good example. Putting it on its feet and doing it with my kid and like, oh, I saw. Oh, you seem frustrated. No, really? Because you're like, Mr. I've figured it all.

loud already. I mean, I didn't think about it in the moment that I wasn't listening to him. Even though I could have known that, I look back at it now and I'm like, all the things that he was showing me was that he was trying to communicate something to me that I totally didn't hear. I don't know. I don't know. I have a very, I'm very nervous about applying this to parenting.

It makes me very nervous because what it sounds like is that I'm going to raise one child who does their chores because that's their personality and the other one you just like. let them never do chores because they don't want to? I think you're... What does that mean? I think you're having... Or if I stop attaching anything to that, then he'll do them? I don't understand.

How about just put your phone down and do the freaking litter? I don't think you can make the assumption that one will lead to the next. I don't think it's like, if he doesn't do it now, he'll never do it. Okay, but it needs to get done. I understand that, but... I'm not trying to harp on this. It's just like this notion, and this is what's terrifying. This is what's terrifying about this kind of work.

It is possible that everything negative that happens in my life is because of me. Like, that's really, I mean, that's the work that we don't want to, you know, it's hard. I mean, I don't think that's up for debate. I think that's 100% true. But just for me. No, not just for you. The level of conflict that you're engaged in. So there's like total detachment.

Total detachment. Find out what is true. In some ways, it is me essentially punishing my children for me being divorced and not having another adult in the house, which like maybe if I was still with their father or whoever, maybe that person wouldn't want to do the litter either. The last time I was annoyed at both of them for being on their phones, you were on your phone too. I was annoyed with all three of you. No one was helping me pack the car. Maybe it's true that you need help, but that they... Maybe I need to divorce.

all of you. I know no one. I don't interact with anybody. I'm always right when I'm alone. Maybe it's true that you need help, but the solution isn't that they need to be the help. Also, going back to this idea of does this awakening happen all the time? I mean, she had a profound awakening and became so wise. You can't explain what happened to her in normal terms. I believe that people have awakenings all the time, whether or not it carries through to that level of transformation. Obviously, that is a unique case. But I do believe that the possibility to reimagine your life and have a totally different interpretation of your experiences and how you form meaning and see your blind spots and really what it is to connect to a capital T truth of the reality of our experience is possible. I think she needs to speak to you and write a book about you.

I will be a case study. I'm signing up. I just keep going back to, who would I be without my story? Oh, my God. I feel like I don't even know you. I only know your story. I'm kind of shocked because in past episodes, like, we've actually broken down elements of your story

that you're like totally attached to. And we've played the game of like, okay, that's true. I'm beautiful. Everyone loves me. all my affirmations I'm supposed to do that I don't do? We did affirmations. We did like personality traits and we did diagnoses and we've done like your future expectations of how a scenario would go. Why he's deflecting, bro.

I mean, I feel the same way too about aspects of my story. The difference is that when I've suggested it to you, you've like gripped in and said, no, these are the things that are like totally true and you defend them. And to me, I'm like, I think that there's a ton that is probably totally not true that I'm making up all the time. And I want to know more about what those things are that I'm making out. Oh, all right. Well, after this episode, I'll start telling you. You have a lift? A lift.

That I do. From the breakdown Jonathan's about to have to the one we hope you never have. We'll see you next time. for you she's got a neuroscience phd or two one fiction one and now she's gonna break down