Mayim Bialik's Breakdown - Chelsea Handler: Unpack Delayed Grief

Episode Date: November 23, 2021

Chelsea Handler (Dear Chelsea Podcast, comedian, television host, best-selling author) stops by to discuss the importance of unpacking trauma and delayed grief. She opens up about growing up in a dysfunctional home, and how the trauma of losing her older brother impacted her entire family and reinforced her commitment to spreading humor. Chelsea explains the journey of her relationship with alcohol, her recent decision to begin therapy, and her life-changing ayahuasca experience. She considers her prior fear of commitment and sense of distrust toward men, and her current healthy relationship with fellow comedian Jo Koy. Chelsea reveals how not having children of her own has allowed her to show up for other people’s children, what she would do if she weren’t in comedy, and why it’s always been especially important to her to highlight other women. Mayim breaks down craniosacral therapy and shares mental health and interpersonal guidelines for maintaining a healthy relationship in another installment of Ask Mayim Anything. See Chelsea on Tour: https://www.chelseahandler.com/ Chelsea's Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/dear-chelsea/id1563085598 BialikBreakdown.com YouTube.com/mayimbialik Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

When I went to therapy and realized all of these things, I was like, oh my God, is my entire life just been a reaction to my brother dying? Like my entire existence, my career, my behavior, everything was about my brother. Like it just felt like that can't possibly all be connected. Yet it is. Hi, I'm Miami-Biolic and welcome to Mya Breakdown. This is the place where we break things down so you don't have to. It's Myambiolic's Breakdown. She's going to break it down for you because you know she loves.

having a very bad hair day. And that seems important to announce. We're going to be talking to a very exciting person today. We're going to be talking to Chelsea Handler, who is on tour. She is vaccinated and horny. Before we talk more about Chelsea Handler, let's talk to our favorite vaccinated horny person, Jonathan Cohen. Hello, my name. Hi, everyone.

I don't know if you like that intro. Some are better than others. Look, you're doing a great job. I'm here to be supportive. Having an introduction is better than not having any. Well, that is a wonderful attitude. And yes, Chelsea Handler, who specifically is known for having a sharp tongue and a sharp wit, she's mellowed a bit in her older age. She's opened up, and she opens up in this interview and is quite spiritual and reflective. She goes deep on her personal trauma and grief. It's pretty amazing. I don't even want to spoil what her childhood was like just in terms of when she found out, for example, that her mother was not Jewish, which is a, it's a fascinating story. Not that everyone has to be.

Not that everyone has to be. But she was raised Jewish and going to synagogue and like, yeah, she comes from a very unusual family. I mean, she's the youngest of six. and she kind of talks about how an event that happened when she was nine has now been reinterpreted by her. She recently engaged in therapy. She's in a relationship with Joe Khoishe, with a prominent comedian. And she talks a lot about, I mean, if I had to say what this episode's about, it really is about the transformative power of therapy and how it touches all aspects of your life.

I can see from the look on your face, which if you're listening, you can't see look on his face that Jonathan's thinking, there's a reason why Miami doesn't describe the episodes. To me, it's, yes, it is about the transformative aspect of processing grief. She happened to do it in therapy and potentially she never would have been able to do it without the help of that relationship. Right. Yeah, but for me, it's how you can reinterpret an experience that happened that really shaped a huge part of her life and her person, not her personality, but her actions. and she talks about being able to like sit with herself now and have intuition and it just sounds completely different than the Chelsea that I knew only from the media many, many years ago.

Well, and I think that's also, I guess, what I felt was so, what I feel is so powerful about this episode is that she is the same person. I mean, we all kind of are the same people that we are from the time that we're very, very young. But I think what we'll speak to a lot of people is this notion of like, she was the kind of person who was like, hell no, I'm not going to therapy. Like, I have my ways of dealing with things. And I'm the life of the party and everything's great and blah, blah, blah. And like to a place now where she's like, oh, I see how that was defenses. I see how that was distancing. I see how that was lack of vulnerability. Like it's very, I love this. She also wasn't just like, I won't go to therapy. She's like, I'm not even going to look at all

introspectively, right? She was like, I'm just not going to look in. I'm not going to slow down. I'm not going to have any sort of quiet time to reflect and be by myself. So that's why I think larger than therapy, it's like the relationship that she had with herself that changed. What if someone doesn't know who Chelsea Handler is? She's a comedian television host. She's a best-selling author and an advocate whose humor and candor have established her as one of the most celebrated voices in entertainment and pop culture. She had a seven-year run as the host of Ease Chelsea Lately, which I was actually on, and that's a whole funny story in and of itself. She was the only female late-night talk show host on the air.

She also had a documentary series Chelsea does, followed by Chelsea on Netflix. She's penned six best-selling books. I really recommend them. I don't want to say they're easy reads, but she writes books about her experiences that really move along. They're funny, they're interesting. She tells great stories. She also just released her first stand-up special in over six years, the critically acclaimed Chelsea Handler Evolution on HBO Max. And she has an IHeart Radio Advice podcast, Dear Chelsea.

She is unabashedly fearless. She also has a podcast, Life Will Be the Death of Me with Chelsea Handler. She has many podcasts. She also did a four-part series, I believe, called Chelsea Does, where she learns about things that she doesn't have a lot of experience about, but in a really kind of intellectually friendly way, she's incredibly smart and also not obnoxious.

Like, she's a lot of amazing things, and it's really a pleasure to get to talk to her. I'm excited. Chelsea Handler, welcome to my... Mambi Alex Breakdown. Break it down. We have many interactions that we've had, which I would love to go down memory lane and remind you of.

Perfect, because my memory is shot and I can't remember anything beyond six months. Okay. Well, it was definitely, it was more than six months ago. So I left the industry for 12 years after I did Blossom, right? And then I did this show called What Not to Wear. And it was literally like the first time that I had done anything in really in about 12 years. and I was asked to come on your show and I wasn't familiar with you

and I remember my publicist said you've been asked to go on Chelsea Handler's show but she's really tough like it may be a really negative experience for you and I was like I'm just excited that someone asked me to do anything and I ended up having a great time I think you're freaking awesome

I ended up like reading all your books I became your possibly number one fan And then I got to have dinner with you, Kate Hudson and Malin Ackerman on an episode of your show. Like, I've gotten to drop into your life at such interesting times. We had this incredible dinner at your house. And we talked about parenting with Randall Park. Yeah, yeah, that was a fun dinner. It was fun.

I promise it was fun. For a brief moment, I was texting with you and Kate Hudson after that, and I was very excited. Yeah, that's funny. I remember that too. We're really, really grateful for you to talk to us. You've done so many things kind of that touch on mental health. And I really just kind of wanted to pick your brain for a bit. You know, one of my favorite things about you is that you're Jewish and also Mormon.

And I wonder if you can tell us a little bit kind of what growing up was like for you, really kind of with kind of that mental health lens on it. You have a lot of siblings. And your dad was a used car salesman, correct? And your mother was born in Germany. And you kind of describe her as this really, kind of opposite personality to sort of this used car salesman personality. So can you kind of just talk us through a little bit of kind of what growing up in your home was like? And yes, I want to know,

were you always the funny one? Well, my household was a hot mess, to put it mildly, because my parents, so my mom came over from Germany when she was about 19 or 20, and she grew up, you know, she was a little girl when the war ended. And her father was a German soldier. So she hadn't even met her father until she was like six or seven. He was a POW living in America. So she was, you know, fresh off the war, so to speak, and then married this Jewish man. So she came over and didn't tell her family that she was marrying a Jewish man. She just didn't say anything until she had her first baby, which was my oldest brother. And then she proceeded to have six children with this Jewish man. And so when I was born, I mean, my family was just, my parents were not,

helicopter parents by any stretch of the imagination. You know, whatever a tiger mother is, that's, they're the opposite. So once I was born, it was like, good luck, you know, raising yourself was basically kind of the vibe in our household. My brothers and sisters were my de facto parents. And it was a really fun, crazy, like, childhood. It was always action-packed. There was always lots of people around. Those were all good times. But my parents were quite dysfunctional. And, you know, when you're a kid, you don't know what the name of that is. You're just like, what? My father, my mother, I thought was Jewish my whole life.

And then when my brother died, I was nine years old. We had my oldest brother died. We had his funeral. And I remember we were sitting Shiva in our house for a week like Jews do. And people were coming in and out of our house. And I'll never forget my rabbi talking to my father about burying my brother in a Jewish cemetery. And my dad wanted to buy three plots, one for him, one. for my mom and one for my brother so that they would all be buried next to each other. And I remember

my dad or my mom, the rabbi saying, but Rita, who is my mother, you would have to convert to Judaism to be buried in the cemetery. And I was nine years old. I was like, convert. She is Jewish. Like she went to Hebrew school with us. She was on the, you know, Bimo during our bat and bat and bat mitzvahs, bot and bar mitzvahs. She was, she spoke, you know, she spoke Hebrew, bits of Hebrew. Like we grew up Jewish. And I was like, you know, like, wait, what? And that's when I learned that my mother was Mormon. And I had no idea what Mormonism meant or was. So my mom gave me the book of Mormon. I read it when I was nine years old. And then when I was, I gave it back to her. I'm like, this is a bunch of horseshit, mom.

And we and then, you know, I guess my parents had agreed when my mom came over from Germany, like they were going to be Jewish. My father was intent on raising his children to Jewish. and my mom was on board for that. Then my brother died, and that sent my mother into an emotional tailspin, obviously. So then she redirected, she went back to Mormonism and took one of my sisters with her. So then my sister converted to Mormonism. So then it was a shit show in our house because my dad was pissed. But my mom was also grieving.

So there was really not, you know what I mean? There was no argument on either side. Everybody was right. And so we grew up with like, you know, my mom got very. serious about the church and very serious about religion again. She wore those Mormon undergarments. We had missionaries at our house all the time. And so that happened for like, I don't know, 10, 15 years. My mom was pretty religious until she died. She started kind of calming down about the religious stuff later in life when she was sick. But at my mother's funeral,

we had, my dad arranged to have a Jewish ceremony for my mother because she had never converted. to Judaism, but he had to get her buried in that Jewish cemetery. So my mother had to, so my dad and we're all planning the funeral. And my dad's like, listen, we're having her funeral at this temple. And my brothers and sisters were like, well, dad, she's a Mormon though. Like, we can't do that. All of her Mormon friends from the church are going to be at the funeral. And my dad was like, do not make eye contact with any of those people. That was my mother's funeral. So my family was so fucked up. We couldn't even get the funeral. We couldn't get the living part right or the funeral part, right. Did your mother try to like convert you or entice you into Mormonism at all? No, I wasn't convertible.

I challenged my mother all the time. I'm like, excuse me, this says right here, if you don't accept Jesus Christ as your savior, you're going to hell. I'm like, so if you're a good person and you live a life of, you know, with morals and a life of valor and you're and you're an honest, decent person. If you don't accept Jesus Christ, you're going to hell. But if you're a rapist and a murder and you're do accept Jesus Christ, you're fine? I was like, Mom, this is such horseshit. So, no, she never tried to convert me. I made it clear from the get-go that I was going to stick with the dreidel. I have so many questions. Your brother died in an accident. You said you were nine. What was the age spread between him and you were the youngest, correct? Yes. He was 22 when he died and I was nine,

So 13 years. Obviously, you know, I mean, I think we're the same age. Like, there weren't words for all of the feelings, right? Like, it was just like you kind of got through it. Like, get over it, get through it. Like, deal with your emotions. Jonathan and I talk about, you know, kind of the difference between the child-centered psychology of today versus the parent-centered psychology of our childhoods,

which was like, I'll tell you when you're cold. I'll tell you when you're hungry. I'll tell you when you're happy. Like, you know, looking back and especially now, with some of your kind of adult perspective, like, do you see kind of like how that trauma impacted the family, or do you kind of just remember your experience and there was sort of like a getting through it? Yeah, no. I mean, everybody kind of retreated to their own corners of grief. I mean, we had, there were six of us, and we were a pretty tight-knit group. So I remember my three

oldest brothers and sisters were all in college. So they were, and two of them were at Emory, University of Atlanta together. And everyone just, you know, there was, you don't have the vocabulary to even understand grief. I certainly did it at age nine, and no one was really concerned about my grief because they didn't think I understood what was happening. And my experience was very different

than their experiences, and no one was trying to help me articulate my pain. Nobody was trying to make sure that I was okay. So I just was in denial. I just went into cruise control, like, I'm going to be happy, I'm going to be funny,

I'm going to make this family laugh again. I'm going to be the reason we're going to have joy again because I didn't want to even deal with the loss of my life. my brother, because to me, as was explained to me in adulthood, when I finally sat down and did the work that I should have done, you know, a long time ago about my delayed grief was that I, you know, it was a rejection. My brother sat with me the night before he left to go on this trip where he fell off a cliff

in Jackson Hole, Wyoming. He sat with me and he wasn't coming on our summer vacation, which he always came. We were never separated in that way. And I didn't understand. He was going on a graduate. trip. And I didn't know that like, you know, siblings left their families and went on trips of their own at that point in my life. So I was pissed at him. I'm like, how can you not be coming to Martha's Vineyard? You know, we drive up there every summer together in our, in his car, just the two of us. And he said, you know, I'm going on this hiking trip. I'll be back in two weeks. He said, I will never ever leave you with these people, uh, meaning my parents. And so when he died, you know, I wasn't even able, because I just thought he may as well have found another family.

and another little sister that was cuter and funnier. That's how it felt. It felt like rejection, not an accident. Even though intellectually, I knew that it was an accident. Emotionally, it was just, you know, so it was too hard to look at. So I didn't look at it. And I just kept moving and moving in circles and directions

that would afford me the denial. Right. My NBi Alex breakdown is supported by Superpower. We all know the feeling of leaving a doctor's office and kind of feeling like we didn't get anything. out of the experience that was useful. Maybe they're like, you're fine, drink more water. There's no real data. There's no game plan. This has happened to me many, many times, especially on the perimenopause journey. That's why we're fascinated by what superpower is doing. They send a licensed

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superpower. Superpower. Not only did Superpower reduce their price to just $199, but for a limited time, our listeners get an additional $20 off with the code break. Head to superpower.com. Use the Code break at checkout for $20 off your membership. And after you sign up, they'll ask how you heard about them. Make sure to mention My and Beale's Breakdown to help support the show. I have two kind of pictures of your family. I have it that like you were the funny one and everyone else was just sort of this, you know, other interesting conglomerate.

You have an amazing brain and an amazing mouth, you know, with which to communicate the things in your brain. Were you all like that or was that kind of you? I mean, I've been like this my whole life. That was just going to be the way it was because, I mean, when I was three, I was asking my parents if they had a dowry. You know, I didn't understand their financial situation. And I just look, I just like, I knew something was off.

No, my family's very funny. Everyone's funny in my family. It's very dry, very sarcastic kind of humor. It's very under, like, you know, under your breath. And it's cynical and it's all of those things. But I'm definitely the most outspoken in terms of personality, the most extroverted, the most kind of daring in that sense. and none of them, you want anything to do with that.

You know what I mean? In their own lives, they're just like, you do it. We don't want anything. Like, they're not, they don't have that personality type. A lot of your writing that in particular I've gotten a lot out of is the sort of owning that you have of kind of the life that you had, especially kind of some of the fun stuff, the party stuff, like the drinking life and that whole kind of aspect of you. But what I like is that you don't, you don't. you've never presented it as like, this is the way to true happiness. Like, you always kind of, you have a dose of humility about it and sort of like the grounded

aspects of your journey. When did you become that kind of person like that was like, life of the party girl? When did that happen? I mean, that happened pretty early on. You know, in high school, I was always just kind of the leader of whatever group I was in and the kind of decision maker. You know, I just always kind of led the charge of whatever. we were doing, if we were going into the city, to the limelight, I'd drive us there. You know, if we were getting, we had to talk to the bouncer to get our way in, I was at the front of the line trying to do that.

So I just always kind of took it upon myself. And I do think that's a personality type. And so that whole party girl kind of fun, you know, and you realize that is a direct reflection of also my brother dying, you know, the inability to sit down and be quiet with my thoughts or actually have any sort of self-meaningful self-reflection, you're just kind of going, going, going, and I wanted more action and more adventure and more excitement. So it kind of worked hand in hand that way. And then, you know, when I went to therapy and realized all of these things, I was like, oh, my God, is my entire life just been a reaction to my brother dying? Like my entire existence, my career, my behavior, everything was about my brother. Like it just felt like that can't possibly all be connected. Yet it is.

I mean, that's incredibly profound. Jonathan, do you want to share a little bit? Well, you talked about delayed grief, and we talk a lot about grief in that process. You know, they say time heals, but it doesn't unless if you just stick it in the corner. And so my, you know, my brother had a serious car accident. He was left for dead when I was 14. And I have a very similar experience where to unpack all the ways that that shapes our lives is pretty enormous. So I'm curious, like, when you went back to therapy, do you see it all as a reaction to that? You're like, oh, if I had just sat in that grief, maybe, like, you would have had a different internal world.

Like, what has that process been like for you to have that delayed grief and unpack it and see what it's impacted? Yeah, like you're just sitting there. I mean, you end up thinking, contemplating, okay, so there's your personality and then there's your circumstances. So which comes first and which affected what? And I think a lot of my behavior was impacted by that. Definitely my relationship with men. You know, I don't count on men. I just didn't trust them.

They're like my father. My father's reaction to my brother dying was almost like he may as well have died too. And before that, I had been the center of my family. I was the youngest. I was the cutest. I was boisterous. You know, I had this kind of precocious personality. And when my brother died, it's just everything went quiet.

No one, you know, no one was looking or paying attention to me. in the way they were before. And with my father, that was devastating because I was so the apple of his eye, and then my father just couldn't get past his grief. So, you know, a lot of it is your personality, but a lot of it is your personality reacting to what happened. And I think a lot of your life is about what happened to you as a child,

you know, as we all are learning more and more. You know, we're all traumatized from something. It's just, what's your trauma? Pick it, unpack it, and then face it, because it's not fun to go to therapy. You know, I went, I was like, I'm not going to be in therapy for five years. I'm going.

This is, like, this is an acute situation. My anger had gotten to a place where I could no longer manage it. You know, I was no longer angry. You know, yeah, sure, I was angry at Donald Trump and his fucked up family. But I wasn't, was that where my anger was really coming from, you know, what was really underneath that anger? And going daily to a therapist where you know you're going to be bawling and crying and it's ugly and I was not in a place to be vulnerable. You know, I had a real problem being vulnerable,

especially in front of a man and fighting the crying and fighting the feelings is a miserable endeavor. But if you're serious about that work, then you're going to get to a place where it's going to benefit you in spades. But it is a process. You know, if someone had said to me, okay, you're going to go to therapy and it's going to be two years. And then after that, it's probably going to be another two years until you're able to incorporate every, that you've absorbed into and apply it to your life. And then after that, maybe another two years just to shake everything out. I would have just blown my brains out. I would have been like six years, but, you know, it was a long process. And so, and now I'm, you know, a much healthier person.

And I'm not fully cooked by any stretch of the imagination. And we all have our stuff to keep working on. But with regard to that, I understand so much more about myself. And I'm, I can look outside of myself when I have a reaction to something, I'm like, uh-oh, that's not a real reaction. That's your little girl reaction. So I have many more tools now to deal with my issues. If that answers your question, Jonathan. 100% does because when you said it was like rejection, not an accident, that lens goes over a young kid's eyes and it becomes the way that we see the world. Like I just, there's so much of your experience that I, is directly from my story. The fact that you're you're not Mormon and

I'm just Jewish. I'm just Jewish, but I, what my mother? Jonathan, can you convert to Mormonism for this purposes of the rest of this podcast? I will. Also, I hate snakes, which I've recently heard you talk about. So I feel like this kinship with you. Did you see the video on Instagram, you guys, with that rattlesnake? Or I don't know what kind of snake it was.

I think they're all rattlesnakes. I can't even watch videos with snakes. If there's a snake, I can't even look at it. I can't even talk about it. No, I'm like, it's the only thing that I'm like terrified of. I'm like, I don't understand why those things. I might have other things we'll talk about that later. I can't.

My reaction to seeing a video of snakes is like I curl up on a sofa and hold my vagina because I'm scared they're coming for it. That's what Jonathan does too. That's the right reaction. That's the appropriate response. I hate snakes. Exactly. Hold on a second.

Also, Jonathan, you took this much heavier and deeper faster than I was planning. I was going to try and warm her up. Let her be funny. then you go for the heart. Make her funny later. She brought it up. She brought it up. Are you scared of anything else besides snakes like that?

Intimacy. Intimacy, commitment. We're throwing out Jonathan's, seeing if there's any, you know, kinship. I used to be scared of commitment, but after therapy, I'm not. Now I'm in a committed relationship with my new boyfriend.

He also doesn't like snakes. And I said to him the other day, I'm like, we're trying to plan this safari in Africa. And I said, hey, honey, you got to figure out what the snake situation is because I can't deal with them. And if you are also scared of them, that's not a good combo. And he's like, I'm not scared of them, but I don't like them. And I'm like, yes, but I need you to be in front of the situation. If we've come across anything like that,

I need you to know that you're going to be in charge of the snake situation. My question is on the relationship and sort of no longer fearing commitment. If you don't hear from him for like eight hours, do you assume he's dead? Yeah, I wouldn't like that. Yeah. If it goes too long, I'm like, wait, are you okay? Are you, yeah? This just became Chelsea doing therapy with Jonathan. This show just got much more interesting to me, and it's my show. All right, back to you.

Okay, back to the things I was going to ask. I do want to find out a little bit, you know, you have this persona that, and I feel, I hope it's okay to say this. I feel this way about Eliza Schlesinger. I feel like that's who I want to be. I want to be, I want to have your personality. I want to have her personality. I want to be like that person who's like out there and like, fuck it if you don't like me.

Like I do what I want. I say what I want. I'm fucking awesome. And sometimes I'm not. I want to have whatever that is that I don't have, right? Confidence. Okay. So maybe it's called confidence.

But I do want to say that like I totally get that that kind of personality I would think is like, I don't need therapy. I've already figured it out. I'm living my best life. I am curious because a lot of people listening. we may be their only therapy that they feel like they're getting, right? What was that turning point? You mentioned anger, but what did it feel like to go from a person who's like, I don't need to be in therapy to like, I really want to explore this?

Can you tell us a little bit more about what that looked like? Well, I was doing my Netflix talk show, and I was doing that for like two years, and I had this psychologist, Dan Siegel, on my show, and I was interviewing him. And he had just talked about the brain in a very kind of... Oh, he's very, very smart, yes. Yeah. And so he was just talking to me about the brain and the development of the brain

in a very kind of linear way that was pretty pragmatic and non-emotional. And I was attracted to that. I thought, oh, if I'm going to see somebody, this guy's smart. And he can explain to me, you know, he can explain the brain to me in ways that would kind of,

I was hoping, avoid all of the emotional work. And instead, just kind of getting on top of like, you know, why we, you know, what parts of our brains make us react, what do we remember, what we don't remember, what's suppressed, et cetera. And so I started seeing him after I interviewed him on my show. And so I think I knew it was after the election. I was really angry. I couldn't work. I was miserable. And I would go into work and just turn on the news. And I was consumed by that 24-hour spin cycle. And people were just kind of had had it, like everyone's like, oh, Chelsea, you know, the politics, and I couldn't stop banging on about it. And I just got

the vibe like, I should probably, this is a good time for me to, you really, I stopped doing the show. I stopped doing everything. I just wanted to take time off and, and focus on nothing. I was sick of myself. I was sick of hearing myself talk and I was sick of my anger. So it gets to a point, I think, where it just becomes unmanageable to you personally. And then you're interested in talking to someone and Dan is so smart that he knew, I'm sure within five minutes of meeting me what my issues are, you know, or were and are. And so it was a process, but he knew how to handle the situation appropriately. And I think that's also really important, you know, there's not a one size fits all for therapy. And, you know, some people really like touchy-feely tell us about your childhood. And some people like, what are the practical things I can do so that I don't hate the sound of my voice, you know. And we're not meant to be in that heightened state. If someone is like always at that 10 and that reaction,

it's probably a pretty good sign that something else is going on. That's right, Jonathan. What did alcohol do for you? At kind of the height of your using it, meaning and enjoying it, what did it do? Was it a numbing? Was it a reckless abandon? What was it and what's the difference?

There's a really, you know, awesome quote about you not reeling realizing how bloated alcohol actually can make people and how much you retain. You were something like, you said something like, oh my God, I have cheekbones and look at these abs, like just from not drinking. But what did alcohol do for you? And kind of what do you think about it now when you think about what that was like to drink? I think it just made, it made me completely uninhibited, you know? It helped me to be the life of the party.

It helps me to go and just be, you know, the fun one. I was always the fun one. I was always the adventurous one. I was always going to say yes to everything and fearlessness. You know, it helped with that. It just, it kind of just amplified every part of my personality. So, and the good and the bad, you know, so you could also get in trouble that way. But for the most part, it was always a good experience.

I didn't get myself into too many tricky situations somehow. I've definitely embarrassed myself, but that was later on, you know, like my 20s and 30s or my 20s was just like fun partying. My 30s was just kind of drinking as it became different, you know, because then you've abused the alcohol for a certain amount of time. So then in my 40s, I'm just, you know, I don't do that anymore because it's just not a, it's not feasible once you're 40 to be operating that way. So luckily, I've never had to go to rehab or anything like that, but I've always just

taken it down a notch when I felt like things were a crutch or, like, for instance, I'm on tour now and I did just a 30-day detox of alcohol. And I had never realized that I had never been on stage without pot or alcohol, I mean, a handful of times, but never as a consistent theme. And I did my first 30 shows, you know, without any crutches, without any pot, without any alcohol. And I remember the first five or six being like, oh, I'm really, really nervous. And I was like, oh, yeah, this is exactly why you have to do this. You have to push through those nerves because this is what you're supposed to be doing, you're not, you don't need anything to do this. And now, you know, I won't drink before I go on stage because being clear-minded is so much more important. So it's just,

it's all been a different phase with alcohol in my life. But in the beginning, it was just, it was, it felt celebratory and fun and adventurous. And then in the 30s is where it's, there were times where like, you know, I said too much or I talked too much or I made a fool out of myself or I didn't remember something. You know, then that, when that started happening, I was like, okay. The other thing with alcohol is that no one else's opinions of my drinking ever would impact me. It was always how I felt about my drinking. So, you know, and I think that's true for a lot of people. It's like, you have to know when you're going too far or you feel like, you know, if somebody had said, I mean, nobody had ever had an intervention or said anything to me about drinking. And if it had,

if they had, it would have been a disaster, right? Because I was, I was never going to listen to what other people were telling me to do. That's been my alcohol journey. You did these episodes of Chelsea does, which I really, really loved. And I love the idea of watching you experience things and getting to see things through your eyes. And one of them featured an ayahuasca experience. And this is something we've talked about as, you know, more and more kind of, there's more and more conversation about the use of psychedelic. in controlled environments for things like untreatable trauma and medication-resistant depression and suicidal

depression. But we actually, we have my mom on certain episodes. I don't know if you know about this and it's exactly as ridiculous as it sounds. And awesome. Hi, Mom. You're the best. Hi, my mom, on one episode, talked about her mescaline experience in the, I guess it would have been the early 70s. Her quote was, I could feel the world breathing.

And she's like, everything had lips. I'm like, everything had what my? Yeah, I could, if I, and she says, if I close my eye, I can go there now still. My parents were, you know, bohemian political hippies. And anyway, I wanted to hear your kind of take on your ayahuasca experience, which is not masculine, and it's a different kind of modality. But, yeah, I'm kind of curious what you, what you learned from that experience. And which was better, that or toad venom?

Oh, God, the toad venom. With regard to ayahuasca, ayahuasca was a beautiful, incredible experience that I had. And we were in Peru. We went and filmed it for my Netflix series. Yeah, Chelsea does. And that one is called Chelsea does drugs. And it was very unexpected.

I thought for sure it would be about my mom because she's passed away since and my brother, who I was referring to earlier. thought it was going to be about them and snakes. I thought it was going to be about my fear of snakes because ayahuasca, all of their art around ayahuasca is always an anaconda. And you're like, when you go to Peru, there's anacondas, like there's flags and everything has an anaconda on it.

So I'm just like, oh, my God, I'm going to be in the middle of the Amazon and I'm going to have this snake experience. So the only fear I had was that, but I was so open. I just went in and just said, whatever happened. I'm going to be in a good spot. I'm not going to lose my shit. I'm going to be in a good place. And they warn you when you're doing ayahuasca, especially on camera.

They're like, you may shit your pants and you may vomit. And I was like, first of all, I'm not an amateur, so I'm definitely not going to shit my pants during a high and ruin that for everybody. That's not happening. My shaman, however, did shit. He shot his pants twice during the ceremony and never got up to even go to the bathroom.

So that's what I was up against. I mean, I need a moment to think about that. Yeah, think about that, Maya. I want you to. Okay, I'm done thinking about it. Keep going. And it was a beautiful, it was like a ceremony. And the first night I did it, I didn't feel anything.

And I had brought two friends, Jason, I mean, my friends, Dan and Jenny. And they had very, very traumatic experiences about their children, about their spouses. And I ended up kind of just being with them during their time because my friend Jenny was bawling and bawling, and this is all in the episode. And so I was just ended up holding her. And my high just completely evaporated. So the next night, the shaman was like, okay, you by yourself without any distractions, one camera only, not an entire crew. And it was all about my relationship with my sister. And I would describe what my experience with ayahuasca as like a phantasmagoria of your entire childhood. It's like an iPod shuffle of clips. So you're watching yourself,

from above. And you're looking down at your life and they're real memories. It's me and my sister running on the beach together, Martha's Vineyard, in the kayaks, tipping each other over, laughing so hard we were peeing in our pants in the water. Our dog from childhood was on the beach. She was wearing the bathing suit that I know she had when she was a kid. And I was watching me tackle my sister and watching our relationship. And there was just this voice that was coming in saying, you know, you have to be kinder to your sister. You have to love your sister. She's not you. stop expecting her to be like you. She doesn't have your ambition.

She doesn't have your drive and you're not right. Like your lifestyle isn't the right one. Her lifestyle isn't the right one. It's each, it's per person. And it was a huge, huge epiphany and wake up call for me because I was reminded by all of those scenes that were playing out. Visually, I was reminded by the fact that she's the closest person to me. You know, I've held hands with my sister more times than I've held hands with anyone.

and how cemented our bond is from was from childhood. And I remember just understanding in that moment, oh, oh, okay, okay, I have to be kinder because I was always like pushing her. Like, come on, you can do more than this. Don't you want to do this? Why do you still want to live in New Jersey? Let's go. But that's what she wanted.

She wanted to be a mother and a wife. And she's not interested in my lifestyle. So it was very profound. And my relationship with her completely changed after that. You can't will those experiences, right? You can't be like, okay, now I'm going to go in and I want to do this relationship. Like, it's whatever comes up, correct? Yeah.

And I had no, it was, I wasn't expecting my sister to come up. That was the last thing on my mind. I thought, you know, this is about my brother. This is about snakes. Who knows? But nothing like that came to me. It was all about my sister. And then when it was done, there was some more stuff about me being,

because I always had so many people around me. And it was just about, hey, you need, it's okay to be by yourself. You don't have to surround yourself with so much noise all the time. Stop, like, stop, calm down. And at that moment, I was thinking my whole crew was downstairs. We were at this, like, lodge off of some tributary off the Amazon. And I remember that everyone was downstairs. And once I got my sister's thing, I was ready to just go downstairs.

I just wanted to tell everyone, you know, I wanted to go down there. And the voice in my head was basically telling me to do the opposite. Like, stop. Stop socializing. You don't have to tell everyone everything the minute it happens. And of course, I got up from that, went straight down to the bar, ordered a vodka soda. I was like, you guys, come over here. I wanted to ask you a little bit about relationships.

Would you be able to, like, can you look back and say this is what I was like pre-therapy in relationships versus this is what I'm like post-therapy in relationships? Oh, yeah. Yeah, for sure. I mean, there's such a delineation in my behavior. It's like so, it's so, you know, remarkable in the sense that it's so notable. Like, there's a date and time where everything, where I realize how you're supposed to say something to people and the tone and the understanding of not having to be right and not having to insert your opinion into everything. The idea that I didn't, my opinion wasn't necessary to vocalize at all times was a complete. surprised to me. I had never even contemplated that, you know, I thought, oh, I'm doing everyone

a favor with my honesty, you know, doesn't everyone want the truth? It turns out, no, most people don't want the truth. So, you know, remember that first. And I'm not the arbiter of truth. Like, it's not my responsibility to be doling out truth to people, maybe to the people that are close and are asking for it in my life. So, yeah, with relationships, with romantic relationships, completely night and day. I'm not, you know, I understand. I've just read so many books now about spirituality, spirituality, about empathy, about compassion and about being a positive vibe rather than being a negative vibe, you know, about not listening to your ego and operating off of your insecurity or self-consciousness.

Like those things need to be shut down as soon as they come up. And to really understand the brain and the mechanisms within which things work and are lit up and triggered gives you the biggest advantage in life because you know when you're reacting to something, you're like, no, no, no, that's not, that's not right. So I'm able to just see my thoughts before they come out now, which is a lot more of an advantage. And also it doesn't, I was so worried I was going to lose my edge. Like, oh, God, what if I'm a big softy? Because I overcorrected so much. In the beginning, I would go to, once I realized, oh, my opinion might not be so necessary every time. And I, I don't.

necessarily have to be the life of the party. I'd go to dinner parties and I would just sit there and be mute. And so people are like, what is this? You're no fun anymore. And I'm like, well, this is the new me. And it's like, no, that was the overcorrection. You know, that was me listening to therapy, but not taking into account my personality. And then the next phase is like merging your personality with your toolkit so that you still are the person you are, but you're more mindful. You know, you're just a better version of that person. So, that took a while. And yeah, I went to a couple dinner parties where people were very disappointed. And they were just like, this isn't the Chelsea we love. And was it then that you entered into the

relationship that you're in now? Was it kind of like, oh, I've come out on the other side of this kind of therapy and evolution experience? And did you feel like you were ready? I mean, I'm assuming you guys knew each other before, correct? Yeah, he was on my old show, Chelsea lately all the time. So I've known him for 15 years. And he has been a friend for a long time, but we weren't in touch. And then he kind of resurfaced about a year and a half ago in my life. He asked me for a quote for his book. He was writing a book.

And he was on the cover of variety for his ticket sales. He was like the highest selling comic for the year of 2019. And so they had called me for a quote about that. And then we started talking. And I always kind of, I didn't see it right away. I mean, I went to Whistler for three and a half months during winter last year, because COVID was so bad in LA. I just got out of here.

And he was just calling me and FaceTiming me all the time. And it wasn't romantic. It was just a friendship. And then we got back and we started hanging out. And again, I didn't think anything romantic was happening or cooking. I just thought, oh, this is a great positive person who I love. He's, I have a history with. I trust him.

I value his friendship. And then before you know it, I realized I just like, literally woke up one day and I saw him. He came to my show in Vegas and he walked into the hotel room and I just remember going, my sister was there and I looked at him. I'm like, oh, is that? He's my boyfriend, I think. Oh, wow.

And I just, and everyone, all my friends, everyone knew. They were like, when are you and Joe Koi going to admit that you're fucking? And I'm like, we are not fucking. We're not even close to that. Like I wasn't attracted to him. I didn't think I was attracted to him. I thought of him as like my brother. I just never looked at him in that way ever.

And then all of the sudden, all of us sudden, sorry, I did. And then I just, and then everyone said, hello. So I was the last one to my own party. So as much work as I've done and as much, you know, lens cleaning as I've done, I still didn't understand what was right in front of me for so long. You have some really hilarious and awesome kind of musings on people who have children and what parenting is like. Did you ever think you wanted to kind of have a more conventional life where you could picture kind of like settling down, getting married, having kids?

Was that ever part of your plan? Or did you know from a young age that you weren't interested in that? No, I was never interested in any of that. I just always thought, for some reason, I just wanted to be free of my family. When I was a little girl, I just wanted to grow up and be an adult. I couldn't wait to be an adult. And I couldn't wait to have the freedom to travel the world and have lovers in different countries and be successful and be somebody that people knew about. You know, those were all my dreams of adulthood. So once I got to adulthood and I was able to achieve those things, you know, rather quite frankly easily because, you know, I'm a white girl that's cute. So it was a lot easier for me. I just was like, this is exactly what I thought adulthood would be.

No responsibilities, no children, no man to tell me. what I'm going to do or have to, I didn't want to be accountable to anyone. That was my big issue, accountability. I just wanted to be free. I just wanted to be on my own without anyone giving me instruction and I wanted to be in charge of the show. When you kind of look back, you know, now, do you still feel the same? Like, can you imagine little Chelsea's running around or it doesn't fit your kind of worldview? No, I just don't see that for myself. I don't think I would have been a good mom. I'm really, really, you know, selfish and I like to do the things I want to do when I want to do them. And I also feel like not having children has allowed me to show up for so many other people's

children in ways that I wouldn't have been able to if I had, you know, the self-absorption of my own family and my own children. I, you know, I'm an incredible aunt to my eight nieces and nephews. I've been able to help kids throughout the world because I don't have, you know, I have the extra money to help strangers rather than worrying about my own situation. And that, I think, is a huge benefit. You know, more people should get, I want some sort of carbon credit, at least, you know, for not contributing to our overpopulation. I think it's a really good decision to make when you're not 100% sure that you want

to be a mom, you know, people have a really strong desire for parenting. And if you don't have that or motherhood, you should pay attention to that. because the only people who should be having children is people who are so inclined to do so. Not people who get pregnant when they're 40 and go, well, I'm 40. I should probably have the baby. No, you actually probably shouldn't

if that's your attitude. I love that, sorry. What did you picture yourself doing career-wise? Did you always imagine you'd be in entertainment? Were you interested in acting more than comedy? I mean, obviously you're a great writer. I'm kind of curious, like, I want to picture a world where Chelsea has all the other jobs.

Like, what would Chelsea is a doctor? Chelsea is like a kindergarten teacher. Like, I'm so curious. Were there other things that you kind of could picture yourself doing? I mean, I'm interested in language and etymology. So I could be interested in studying languages and, you know, all of that. I could get into that. Psychiatry, I'm interested in the brain.

I'm interested in how that works. interpersonal affairs and dynamics, family shit. I love all that. But no, I just wanted my voice to be heard. I can't really say it was any sort of altruistic endeavor that landed me where I am. It was more like, oh, I wanted to be famous. I was a little girl and I wanted the attention. I thought I deserved and I had a lot to say. And I thought people would be benefit from that. I thought, okay, I'm somebody who's going to show up and drag you to the point of bravery. I'm going to make people braver and I'm going to inspire you to do the same thing and be strong. Like, I just always wanted everyone to be a little bit stronger than they were. And so I just thought I could

provide that. I could make people listen to me and I could make people, you know, value themselves a little more. And I was interested in that. So it wasn't, it didn't matter if it was acting or if it was comedy. I just wanted to get my voice out there. And I wonder if you can speak a little bit to some of the, you know, the difference in kind of men versus women with this kind of thing. That's something that I really admire about you is that, and you've spoken specifically to people calling you fearless and how, you know, you don't necessarily identify as like, I'm this fearless person. But there's a notion, and especially like when I, when I first was introduced to you and my publicist sent me clips of you to prepare me for what was going to happen, you know,

when I went to meet Chelsea Handler, you know, there is, there's this. ability you have to, you know, I don't want to say like surpass gender because I feel like that's a dated kind of concept, but the notion for a long time was that like dudes can say these things. Men can talk like this, but that's not what ladies did, right? It's not how women operated. And, you know, Joan Rivers was one of kind of the comedians that was like, oh my gosh, that's a lady, like opening her mouth. She's saying all these things. Did you ever have a concept of like what was acceptable for girls versus boys or for women versus men for your industry or even with your personality?

I think that's come into sharper focus in the last few years because it's just, it's obviously the conversation of the moment, you know, about the disparity there. But when I was coming up, no, men were not my competition and I didn't look at myself like I'm a girl. I looked at myself as I'm a person. I never was sitting there bemoaning like,

oh, these guys aren't letting me into their space. Like if they were assholes, I didn't even bother with them. I had more resistance from other women when I was coming up than other men. Men were always cool about me because I was pretty and I was funny and outspoken. And if they had a problem with me, they weren't going to talk to me about it. So women were a problem because women were threatened because we all have been, you know, brought up to think that there's room for only one or two of us. So that was the bigger issue for me. So when I started my show, Chelsea, lately, it was imperative that I was highlighting other women because I was like,

Oh, I'm not ever going to participate in that kind of bullshit. I'm never, ever going to make other women feel like they don't get the space that I have or share the light that I have. And whether it was women or men, and it wasn't just women. I mean, I am a woman. So naturally, you're drawn to other women. But it was men and women, you know. It was everybody.

I just didn't like that competitive nature. That's not within me. I'm not a competitor. I'm not like competitive like that with anything. I'm just trying to have a great fucking time. and inspire people to do the same. So with now, you know, now my hour on tour of my show is, yeah, I'm giving it to guys in a very direct way. Like, here's what we're fucking telling you.

Stop prolonging what was supposed to just be a conversation into a culture war. Like, if you just listen to what we're telling you, the whole cancel culture, this Me Too movement and cancel culture can be done. We can move on from this. but the only people prolonging that conversation are single white men. I mean, straight white men. You know, it's not like everyone else is like, yes, women need equality. People of color need equality. The only people who disagree with that are white guys.

Some white guys, not all of them. No, not all white guys, but that should be understood. We have to constantly tell every man when we're saying this if they're a white man, don't worry, it's not you. It's not you. It's them. But the thing that I like to remind people of, just like the police, right, there are enough bad apples that as a collective, we all need to apologize.

As a collective, yes, we know there are good police officers. But unfortunately, the bad ones have spoiled this conversation. And just like that, there are enough bad white guys that have abused their power for too long so that as a collective, all white straight men need to say, I'm sorry. And just fucking listen. All you have to do is say I'm sorry And then we can move on You don't even really have to mean it

Just keep saying it until you do That's a good point That's a very good point What is your life like now Meaning you're touring now You're in a relationship Home base for you is Is it L.A.?

Yes, it is L.A And how long are you on the road now? So I leave So Joe and I have the same schedule Joe's my boyfriend We leave every Thursday We fly out And we come back

Sundays or Monday. So we perform Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and sometimes Sundays. So I'm usually in L.A., like Mondays through Wednesdays, or we meet in New York. If we're on the East Coast, we kind of just meet wherever is more convenient. So we spent the last couple weeks in New York. This week is L.A. next week, I think New York. And we just meet up and we make sure that we're together as often as we can. And then he comes on tour with me. Like, I'm going to Florida next week. I have all my Florida dates. So he's coming with me to that, which will be so fun because then we can perform together and, you know, go on stage together. And so that's really fun. But yeah, it's a pretty grueling schedule, you know, being on tours, no joke. Well, and I was going to ask because, I mean, even when you were talking about drinking, and I've talked about this here, like, I was never a huge drinker, but I was a woman who could hold a lot of alcohol in my day. And it was something that, you know, like, I don't drink, quote, girly drinks.

I know that's also a gendered term now. but like I was a scotch drinker. Like I was a serious drinker. And I could, I mean, that's what people used to say. Oh, you can drink with the guys. And it's true. You know, that was a lot. Like, I can't do that anymore.

When I hit right around 40, it was like one drink felt like seven. Or like what used to be like, oh, I'll have a couple mojitos because I'm having Mexican food with friends at Gracious Madre. I would wake up as if I had pulled an all-nighter and like what I would say, say is like, at least I wish I would have had exciting sex to feel like this. Like, I literally would go out, like, for like a business dinner and wake up feeling, like, hang over, proper hangover from two drinks over six hours with plenty of calories, right? So when I think about your schedule, like, I can't, I can't even drink anymore, much less like, stay up late, sleep in hotels like that. Do you feel a difference now or do you still feel like a sprightly 27 when it comes to that kind of schedule?

No, I feel like shit. I mean, it's a wellness game. I mean, being on the road is a wellness game. Like, I get, you should see the shots I load up on every Monday. They come to my house with NAD, with B12, with, you know, I have to take, whether I drink or not, I feel hungover every morning when I'm on the road because you're traveling sometimes by car four or five hours at night after a show. you're driving from Indianapolis to Cincinnati

or you're hopping on a plane whatever it is it wears on your system so it's all about hydration and wellness and that's boring quite frankly you know my openers come on the road with me I used to be the person that was out till 4 in the morning and then get up and do two shows at the Chicago Theater I don't pull that shit anymore

I go home I'm in bed by if my show starts at 7 I am in bed by 955 like I am in bed under the covers face-timing with Joe because he's on the East Coast. He's three hours ahead. So that works out perfectly for us. And my openers are like, oh, God, Chelsea Handler is not Chelsea Handler. I'm like, no, guys, this is a different kind of tour. Like, I want to be on for my audiences, first of all, that I have these audiences that are so amazing. After all this time, like, it's my responsibility to show them a great fucking show. And that means that I'm on my game and that I'm sharp and

mentally fit. So all of those components work towards it, you know? And I don't take it for granted. When I was younger, I'd be like, wasted. I'd do two shows. The second show, I'd be wasted. I wouldn't even remember what, you know, I'd be like, I hope that was fun. My sister said that last night, she goes,

my God, you're so on your game. You're so clear-headed. And I was like, yeah, I mean, my family's so probably happy that I don't drink the way I used to. Does your dad, does he come to shows? No, he passed away, too, thankfully, a few years ago because that was a really long haul. Did he used to come to your shows?

Yeah, he would definitely. He loved that. He loved being, you know, the father of a famous person. He thought it was the best. Like, he just thought I was the cat's meow, mostly because that meant that his loins created me. You know, he was a bit of a narcissist in that way. But I loved him nonetheless, and he gave me this personality.

So I'm grateful for that because I'm pretty strong, you know, and that's definitely from him. Two very quick questions. One is you make fun of spirituality, especially faux-L-A spirituality, but you mentioned that you've read a lot of books now. Do you feel like you have a different connection to a spiritual side? Yes, definitely. I meditate now all the time, and I just understand what you're putting out there. You know, that negative energy attracts more negative energy and that positive vibes bring in positive vibes.

So I don't even talk shit about people anymore. I just find that to be so boring and such a waste of my time. You know, I have no problem sitting in silence or not commenting on something just because I think it's putting out bad vibes. You know, I think when you, the perfect testament to that is me having Joe be in my life. He's such a positive vibration. He's, he operates at this highest frequency. You know, he's so grateful. He's so stoked.

He's got so much stoked for his shows, even though he sells out arenas all the time every night is like his first time. And that's infectious. And being around that has, you know, has, you know, has, has. sparked a fire in me about being that way and being operating from gratitude with everything and focusing on what you have and not focusing on what you don't have, right? You know, a good way to like lose what you have is by focusing on what you don't have. And getting into those kind of negative narratives that I used to do all the time. Like, I don't have that anymore. A couple of books that really impacted me profoundly, well, one was letting go by David Hawkins. I've read

that three or four times. And that is a profound book and really breaks it down. It's very, it's dense and it's scientific and it helps you understand the meaning of positive energy and what you can accomplish when you lift up your frequency and you're putting out, you know, and you're operating from courage rather than fear or ego. Another one is the untethered soul. That was a cute one. That kind of breaks it down. I mean, they all say the same fucking thing, you know? It's just how do you want to hear that information about how to separate your ego from who you are. You also say that you're a pharmacological expert. Oh, yeah. And that you can diagnose very accurately. Now that you've been speaking to us for an hour or so,

what drug should we be on? She probably clocked me the first time I stepped onto a stage to sit next to her. Yeah, Maia, no, you're not for drugs. I don't think you should be doing drugs, right? I don't think that's your personality type. I don't know, Jonathan, about you. I would say, I mean, I would say you probably dabble a little bit more than I am and that you are a little, little more curious, I think, in like terms of psychedelics and that kind of thing. Is that accurate? I think he's too anxious. No, I'm a curious seeker. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's what it is, right? I'm seeking, I like the thing I love about psychedelics and this is something that if you don't have the right mindset for it, you shouldn't be doing it because you have to be so open. You have to just be willing to go, okay, this is going to be and you have to have such good vibes about it, right? Like no matter what happens, I'm going to be okay. Setting an intention. It sounds corny, but it's so important even when people are microdosing psilocybin or LSD or cannabis. You know, setting an intention is always a great way to set yourself up for success so that the drug, isn't doing you that you're doing the drug?

Yeah, I would never say, no matter what happens, everything's going to be okay. Right, exactly. So that's why you're not going to do psychedelics, by. Right, no, I mean, I, you know, I've had panic attacks from literally just existing as a sober human. Like, you don't need to add to that. Just keep you on the guardrails.

That's right. Chelsea Handler, thank you so much for talking to us. We wish you the best with the rest of your tour and also so happy to see you in such an amazing place and also able to share that with us. It's really, really a pleasure to speak to you. Oh, thanks, guys. Nice to meet you, Jonathan.

Pleasure to meet you. Thank you so much. Take care, guys. Have a great day. That was a deeper conversation than I expected from Chelsea Handler. She's a deep lady. But let's not forget that if you would like to see her, she's touring through the spring.

And this is actually a show I would really love to see. Maybe I'll go see it. What am I acting? I could pick a city and go. Chelseahandler.com has tickets available for vaccinated and horny. Also, the merch on her website is hilarious because it's just like buttons that say like vaccinated and horny, which I think is awesome. So she'll be touring, yeah, through spring. So go there.

She's a very, very intelligent person. And I don't mean to be like, oh, an intelligent pretty person. I just mean like when she was like, when I asked her what she might be, oh, etymology. Of course, etymology. No, she's got, she's really intelligent. She is a very deep person, and I love this notion of also getting to kind of watch the evolution of her as a person over a career that hasn't suffered from her being one way or the other. You know what I mean? Like, she hasn't lost her edge.

She's still funny. And I just think her reflectiveness is so refreshing. And Chelsea lately was her talk show was not known to be the most uplifting show in the world. No, she was brutal. I mean, that's what, and that's what Heather warned me about. She was like, Chelsea Handler wants to have you on. I'm like, I haven't watched television in a million years. I have children and I don't know what to do.

And she's like, you got to be prepared. You got to be prepared to get ripped apart. But you weren't ripped apart. No, I really liked her. I liked her very much. And I think that's also like people assume, not to make it about me, but let's, people assume that I'm like very delicate and like I'm easy to offend. And sometimes I'm delicate. I have a startle reflex.

That's a different story. But no, I'm actually not easy to offend that way. No, you have thick skin. I do. And I think that she's a kind of person that I really like, you know, talking to and kind of learning from. And I really did. I enjoyed her books. And she's a very good writer.

She's a very funny writer. And she's got incredible stories. But it's not just her stories. It's the insight that she has about them. And I think that's sort of something she's carried through, you know, her whole career. I was just amazed that to go from Chelsea lately, which is like, was. was a sharp and often brutally mean show to the positive vibes that she's spouting now and gratitude. It's a pretty amazing spiritual transition.

I have to call it spiritual because it's pretty profound in terms of the change. Maybe we should send you on March 12th, 2022 to Toronto to go see her. That would be a lot of fun. We'll put you on a one-way ticket and see what happens. I will take my Canadian flag with me. She's awesome. She also, as I really love that she said, she does a lot of things for children all over. She has a support Syrian youth link on her site.

The Karam House is a safe space where Syrian youth who've witnessed and survived the trauma of violence and displacement can learn science, technology, engineering, math, and the arts. She stands with Planned Parenthood, Vote411.org. She's a very active person, and I also like that she hasn't lost. lost, you know, her kind of political edge or stance, but she's just found a different way to kind of channel it. And I really respect that, you know, honestly, for the place that I'm at in my career. I really do. I really look up to her. Yeah, I think she's really wise. And I like how unapologetic she is. I mean, I apologize about everything. Like, I don't think you ever hear her apologize just for her experience and for being who she is. And I just, I think she's really

awesome. We'll probably do an entire segment at some point about psychedelics. But circling back to her ayahuasca story. Yes. I think we should like make, do a little research on how it is that the brain holds those memories and is able to retrieve them. Like what mechanism is happening with that medicine to bring up those memories and like why some memories and not another? I will happily write you a whole intro just like the old days about the CA1 and CA3

regions of the hippocampus. I would like that. And also like, I mean, it's, it's, there's, there's, there's, there's, There's also a very mystical, profound. That's where I'm going. It's not, I mean, like, the way she describes it. And I also want to point out, like, what she experienced is true, meaning that's what happened. So the notion is not necessarily that there's a file cabinet of every single thing that you've experienced in your life.

I think there is. There's all in there somewhere. And then, like, you take that drug and it's like, bloop, blue, blue, blue, blue, blue, blue. There's a tremendous amount of mystery and beauty to have. how anyone's experience, really, as a functioning human, forget about with drugs. But yes, there is a mechanism we know of how those drugs open up, as it were, you know, conceptually, how that opens up that kind of catalog. But the way she described it, I mean, that's like, it wasn't even like she was thinking

of those things before she went into it. It was just like, this is what, this is the file cabinet that got opened. That's also what I'm curious about is like why some file cabinets get opened at some points in your life and like, is there any predetermination to... Well, the short answer is no, and I'm sure that there are people who we can have on who are experts who can explain a little more of the yes. But what I'd like to point out is that therapy and certain kinds of therapy and in particular therapy of the hypnosis kind of modality, craniosacral therapy that focuses more on the physio-emotional therapy that focuses more on the physio-emotional experience. That's not a word or phrase, but I'm using it that way. I've had experiences in craniosacral therapy, not on drugs, not, you know, under the influence of anything except my brain. I was not asleep. Also was not awake. There's a place that you can go. Still playing. It's called. There is a

place that you can go where things will come up like that, isolated memories that have oftentimes no real link to what's going on. I've also had experiences of more of a hallucinogenic quality, again, completely not on drugs, when under the influence of kind of a hypnotic, meditative, usually in the context of a craniosacral, intense session. And this is not just like with a person that I looked up online, meaning it was someone I had an ongoing relationship of trust and safety with. And I have had experiences where images came to me fully formed that had not existed in reality,

but they meant something very significant to me. And I was like, oh, it's a vision. Like that's what that used to be called, right? Or in other cultures, that's what it would be called. It's an altered state of consciousness. And in that type of healing work, it's known as like this place in between sleep and awake where you have access to different types of information. And if we think about that as part of, like,

we all have the ability to access this other realm, what does that mean for our, like, waking lives? It means that, like, there's this whole other existence that we potentially don't spend much time in that could be a, O'I. and I believe, is a pretty core part of human existence. There are two components, just pharmacologically speaking, of ayahuasca. One is DMT, and that is, I think, what's in the frog venom as well, correct?

I have no idea what's in frog venom. I got it from her special. And then there's a beta carboline, and those are kind of the two components. And, yeah, there's certain receptors that those chemicals bind to. Like, we literally know on a cellular level what's happening to receptors for those chemicals. And anyway, yeah, I would love to talk more about it. We can't not mention her discussion of grief and complicated grief. We actually, I didn't name it as that, but complicated grief often comes from what colloquially we call unresolved issues with a person who has died.

And I would argue that really any death that children experience of an immediate loved one doesn't have to necessarily be a family member, but in particular a sibling, a parent leads to complicated grief because for a child, all grief is inherently complicated that way. And what she described is what you've described also in your family, that when there's any traumatic event, it doesn't have to be a death, it can be other kinds of loss, everyone has to use their kind of independent coping mechanisms, and those don't always gel together as a family. You hear these amazing stories of people, God forbid, and a family who they experience a loss and everyone comes together and it all meshes really nicely.

and like they would, you know, but it often doesn't happen that way. But yeah, especially in a large family with, you know, so many different dynamics, in some ways you think like, oh, it's better, right? They had all had each other. But it's also more fragmenting, especially for the baby of the family, which she was. The way that she described everyone sort of retreating to their own corners, I could really relate to. It was, that was actually the hardest in my family experience is that my parents were so rocked and they were so shattered as, as people. They just sort of of, you know, crumbled that, yeah, it was, it was, that was as traumatic as the loss and the injury because they were so, you know, absent.

Right. So it was interesting to hear her experience. And then interesting to hear, you know, I just saw that so much of her reaction to that, I want to make everything okay. Oh, I want to be funny. I think you're her. I mean, I'm not as funny as her. Not yet.

I'll work on it. All right. Let's do an ask my anything. Ask my anything. Yeah. Cynthia P. asks, how do I know that I'm capable of being in a healthy relationship again with all my mental baggage? Well, you know, Cynthia, this is a great question and one that I've actually spent some time thinking about of the late. I'm going to go rogue here.

Go rogue. I'm going to base this on a 12-step philosophy that typically likes to remain particularly anonymous. But I'm going to do a little, yeah, I'm going to go rogue here. Here are some, the short answer is I don't know. The longer answer is you do. You may not know yet. But here are some of the things that I like to use as guidelines. An ability to be vulnerable.

An ability to avoid situations that we know are not healthy, physically, psychologically, spiritually, or morally, having a real understanding of accepting ourselves and taking responsibility for ourselves, allowing ourselves to be vulnerable to the point that we can ask for help when we need it. And that doesn't necessarily just mean in the context of a relationship, just in terms of you as a person. low self-esteem is often hiding in a lot of fears about relationships. So being able to have a trusted person that you can work with on that.

Rigorous honesty, which is something that we talk about in a lot of the 12-step conversations we have. And also feeling that you're in a place of understanding kind of where you came from and where you want to go. I think those are some kind of general guidelines that I hope are helpful. Jonathan, do you want to add anything? Because this is something I think that, you know, a lot of us may have opinions about. Yeah, I'm going to clarify that when I'm saying those questions, the person should be asking them themselves. If they have those qualities. Correct. Yeah, don't ask your potential partner.

Yeah. This is the things that you want to kind of think about for yourself before you say like, oh, I feel like I could be a good partner. Or I have too many of these things that still feel unresolved. I likely am not going to be able to be the best partner I can be. Yeah, if you can't ask for help, if you can't be vulnerable, if you don't know, if you're so self-conscious and have low self-esteem that you're only being able to, you know, connect with someone who helps that, then that's a red flag for yourself. And honestly, and this is, you know, just from my experience,

if you find that you're relying on drugs, if you find that you're relying on alcohol, If you find that you're relying on kind of compulsively being worried about what other people think or need, those are signs that there's still work for you to do on yourself. So I also want to reframe it and have it kind of not be like, I have too much emotional baggage to be in a relationship. But we are all a work in progress. And there are different points in life when we can say there's more work to be done on my own, which I think is something that a lot of people are really uncomfortable with. And I think that's also something. It's kind of like just when you get comfortable being alone, is when you actually might find that you're able to not be.

How's that for ironic? I think that's a really good answer. Okay. If people want to ask Miami anything, they can do so at Bialicbreakdown.com. That's BIA. L-I-K. Breakdown.com. Make sure you subscribe to our show.

Go to Bialik Breakdown on Instagram. Join our Instagram family. Check out Mime's YouTube channel. Click the little bell notifications for a new episode. Check out my YouTube channel. That's where all the things happen. And from our breakdown to the one we hope you never have. We'll see you next time.

My Ambialics breakdown She's gonna break it down for you She's got a neuroscience PhD or two Fun fiction And now she's gonna break down