Mayim Bialik's Breakdown - Cult Leaders Target You At Your Weakest. Never Confess This To Them | Rick Alan Ross

Starting point is 00:00:00 Cult leaders are very unusual characters. Charles Manson, David Koresh, Keith Renneri, often described as psychopaths. How are cults actually part of our life today? They use social media. They're everywhere. Could be a religious group, political group, therapy group. Where is the line between religious devotion and religious insanity? The line is not about what you believe.

Starting point is 00:00:28 It's how the group behaves. Rick Allen Ross, one of the leading experts in the world on cults and cult intervention, explains why cults are more prevalent today than ever before. I've deep programmed well-educated professionals. What frequently is the narrative of people entering cults is a time of vulnerability, depressed, going through a divorce, lost their job,

Starting point is 00:00:53 someone close to them died. Cult leaders can take over a person's critical thinking, isolating it, gaslighting it. We all want to think that it couldn't happen to me, given the right set of circumstances, anyone can be had. Miami-M-Belx breakdown is supported by Helix. We can't tell you how excited we were to hear that Helix wanted to partner with us. I've had my helix for over five years, Jonathan too,

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Starting point is 00:02:08 Go to helixleep.com slash breakdown for up to 30% off your HelixMatrice. That's helixleck.com slash breakdown for 30% off your helixmattress, helixleep.com slash breakdown. Hi, I am Biolic. And I am here solo today. Jonathan Cohen is not with us today, but he will. wishes he was because this is a great episode. Are you fascinated by cult psychology, Scientology, manipulation tactics, narcissism in relationships, brainwashing, deprogramming,

Starting point is 00:02:43 or the psychology of influence? Well, if you're even concerned that cults might be influencing our very own government, you are in the right place. We have got the expert here to break it all down. I'm here today with Rick Allen Ross. He is a private consultant. a lecturer and expert in cult interventions. He began his work as an anti-cult activist in the 80s. He's one of the leading experts in the world today on cults. He's consulted with the FBI, a ton of law enforcement agencies, as well as governments of other countries. He's been qualified, accepted, and testified as an expert court witness in 11 different states within the United States, including U.S. federal court.

Starting point is 00:03:28 He's the author of Cults Inside Out, How People Get In and Can Get Out. Rick has facilitated more than 500 interventions to rescue people from cultic situations. He's going to be talking with us today about why cults seem so much more prevalent than ever before. Do cult leaders actually believe what they're preaching, or is it one giant gaslighting? I'm going to ask Rick to explain if religion itself, 12-step programs, Scientology, how they qualify or don't qualify for the status of a cult? And what can you do if you're in a relationship that seems to be cult-like? We're going to be diving right into conversations about the role of cults in our very own government as conversations about Tulsi Gabbard's involvement

Starting point is 00:04:17 with an established cult seems to be making their way into policy and communication. Rick consulted on this cult and he shares the warning signs that he wishes. as someone had listened to. Rick's also going to walk us through how the belief in UFOs can be exploited by cult leaders to make people do things they never expected they would do. We're also going to talk about how cult-like behaviors can make their way into abusive and controlling relationships, how to identify if you are dating a narcissist and the crucial differences between overt and covert narcissism and the dangerous psychological trap known as the fear of disequilibrium, which makes its way into many of our relationships without us even knowing it.

Starting point is 00:05:02 It's a pleasure to welcome to the breakdown, Rick Allen Ross. Break it down. Thank you for having me on. Very excited to talk to you, excited to talk about cults inside out, which I would say is the definitive book on anything and everything cult, from origins to processing, to deprogramming, to some of the ways that cults are actually a part of our daily lives in ways we may not even fully be aware of. Your career, and I also recognize you from documentaries that I've seen, I've seen pretty much every cult documentary that there is. I'm fascinated with this just as a layperson. Your career has spanned sort of our common modern knowledge of cults.

Starting point is 00:05:46 They've changed in many ways, and in many ways they're very similar, right, over the years. Why is there an interest, though, for our generation now in cults beyond the ways that we normally think of it, right? We think of religious leaders. We think of gurus. It's this like far-off thing. How are cults actually part of our life today? Well, they're pervasive. They're online.

Starting point is 00:06:12 They use social media. They're streaming. They have podcasts. I mean, you name it. They're everywhere. And I think what intrigues people is the idea that some group can control people to that extreme. And then, of course, the cult leaders themselves often described as psychopaths are flamboyant, very unusual characters like Charles Manson, David Koresh, or Keith Ranari. So what it is is this incredible fascination with the fragility of the human mind, I think,

Starting point is 00:06:55 and how cult leaders can, you know, take over a person's critical thinking or shut it down. And I think most people would assume I would never join a cult. I would never be drawn into that. I'm too smart for that. I'm too aware. I've heard of Charles Manson. I've heard of these things. I've seen the documentaries. But there are actually ways that the techniques that cults use are utilized by other groups as well. And for those who are on the cynical side, they might say all of religion is a cult, right? All of politics is a cult. But can you speak a little bit to what cult-like techniques look like in our daily life? You know, you've got an entire chapter of the book dedicated to relationships. What are these things? techniques because cults is obviously this umbrella, but there's so much that falls under it that is outside of the realm of an organized group that, you know, takes you away from your home

Starting point is 00:07:51 and you never speak to your family again. There are these basic building blocks that form the foundation of our understanding of what has commonly been called cult brainwashing. And that would be the book Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism by Robert J. Lifton, influenced by Robert Cheldini, Coercive Persuasion by Edgar Shine, and also two books that I think are often neglected, Snapping and Holy Terror by Flo Conway and Jim Siegelman. And then there's the book, Cults in Our Mids by Margaret Singer. So if you put these together, you have the foundation of what we understand called Brainwashing to be. And Lifton breaks it down into eight criteria to determine whether or not a thought reform program is ongoing. And one of them

Starting point is 00:08:48 is social isolation that is becoming removed from society at large, becoming so preoccupied in a particular group or a social structure that you really are neglecting previous relationships, your family, et cetera. And you're just hearing one train of thought, one, version of what reality is supposed to be. And so the most extreme expression of that would be a cult compound. But now what we're seeing is people getting really kind of embedded online. So they're following people that are like-minded. They're watching streaming of what this group is putting out or this movement endlessly going through YouTube videos. Even though information is so accessible, they become cocooned online in a world of like-minded people. And this is

Starting point is 00:09:48 often manipulated by the leadership of various groups and movements. It almost seems like social media was designed to propagate cults. I'll give you an example. There was a man that I was retained by his wife to do an intervention. And this was a man with an MBA. He had a position with a Fortune 500 company. He worked from home. He had gone through a tragedy of his best friend, like a brother, had died. And he died very young in his 30s, suddenly. And it really affected this man. And he went online, and he started watching certain videos that were based on a search that he had done. And as you know, on YouTube, if you watch certain videos, YouTube's algorithm will push up more of the same. And so then he went, as they say, down the rabbit hole and into a very extreme group.

Starting point is 00:10:52 And it all happened within his home office while his wife, an attorney, was working. And so that's an example of how people can be pulled in. And I think we all want to think that we're impervious, that we're immune, that it couldn't happen to me. But you know, I've deprogrammed through interventions five medical doctors. One was a orthopedic surgeon, another was an anesthesiologist. They were not stupid. they were well-educated professionals, very astute and well-respected in their field. So it seems to me that given the right set of circumstances that anyone can be had,

Starting point is 00:11:38 and I think if we accept that, understand that, then we're more prepared to deal with it when it confronts us. Mine Bealk's Breakdown is supported by Quince. You know those pieces in your closet that you reach for over and over again? I sure do. The sweater that somehow works with everything, the jeans you know will always fit just right, the bag that you carry everywhere. Those are pieces that earn a permanent place in your wardrobe, and that's exactly what Quince does so well. Quince specializes in effortless, high-quality essentials like ultra-soft organic cotton, premium Mongolian cashmere sweaters.

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Starting point is 00:15:39 We really, really cannot say enough good things about waking up. We're huge fans at Myambiolics Breakdown. It's helped us not just feel better, but understand ourselves and the world in a whole new way. As a friend to the podcast, we know that Sam has specifically designed this app for people who think deeply about how to live. And we think that's you. Visit www.wakingup.com slash breaker for a two-week free trial. That's www.w.wakingup.com slash breaker for a two-week free trial. You know, when you say that an orthopedic surgeon, right, had to be deprogrammed, I think we still have that bias, right?

Starting point is 00:16:19 We have that bias of there's a certain kind of person that this happens to, right? Maybe you can explain a little bit about deprogramming. There's a quote I actually wanted to read. You're quoting Ted Patrick, which was the first, you know, kind of deprogrammer. And he said, deprogramming is like taking a car out of the garage that hasn't been driven. for a year. The battery has gone down. In order to start it up, you've got to put jumper cables on it, right? Fine. It will go dead again. So you keep the motor running until it builds up its own power. This is what rehabilitation is. Once we get the mind working, we keep it working long enough

Starting point is 00:16:55 so that the person gets in the habit of thinking and making decisions again. I mean, as a neuroscientist, I'm fascinated about how the brain can undergo such a significant change that logic, reason, nothing can penetrate that. What is it like to deprogram someone? And you've deprogram people from some of the most famous persistent and tragic cult stories, right, that many of us have heard in our lifetime. What is that like? What are you going in with? And what's it like when it doesn't work? I know you have a very high success rate. But what happens when it doesn't work? When it doesn't work, the person decides to return to the group, stay in the group, and their family has to use what I would call coping strategies to deal with them afterwards, which is to maintain a line of communication, make it clear to them

Starting point is 00:17:52 that your love is unconditional, that you will always be there for them, regardless of their choice. And what the deprogramming is is essentially an educational process. So it is in, in, in ways like a drug or alcohol intervention. It begins as a surprise. The family is there. I'm there. And we basically cover four blocks of discussion. One is defining what is a destructive cult, which Lifton, in a paper that was published

Starting point is 00:18:29 at Harvard, identified what I would call the nucleus for every definition of a destructive cult, which is number one. a charismatic leader that becomes an object of worship. He is the defining element and driving force of the group and has dictatorial power over his followers. Then second, that that leader uses identifiable techniques of thought reform, coercive persuasion, to gain undue influence over his followers. And then finally, if it's a destructive cult, the leader uses his. his influence to exploit and do harm to those followers.

Starting point is 00:19:12 So you take those three core characteristics, and it could be a religious group, it could be a political group, it could be a therapy group, a multi-level marketing scheme, whatever. And, you know, if it quacks like a duck and it walks like a duck, it just might be a duck. So that is the first area of discussion is what is a distrable? cult, how is it defined? Are there parallels between that definition and the group that you are now in? And then second, what is thought reform? How could I understand whether or not a thought reform program or coercive persuasion is being used on me? For example, in Edgar Schein's book, Coercive Persuasion, he identifies three stages of coercive persuasion.

Starting point is 00:20:08 The first unfreezing or breaking someone down. The second, changing them. The third, locking them in or refreezing them as Shine says. So is the group that you're in, do they have a breaking down process? How do they break people down? How is that accomplished? Do they expect you to change? What are those changes?

Starting point is 00:20:35 And finally, are you socially isolated? socially isolated in an environment that essentially locks you down, people that surround you and reinforce the group thing? And then the third issue or the third block of discussion would be, what do you really know about this group? Are they keeping information from you? Are there secrets? Has the leader been involved in various things like fraud or violent behavior?

Starting point is 00:21:07 criminal behavior that you're not aware of. What do you not know that you should know to make a more informed decision about the group? That's where research comes in about the group's history and the leader's history. And then finally, why did your family convene this intervention? Why are they here? I mean, are they crazy? What is it that they saw that caused them to be so concerned that they brought in a professional and feel that they need to do this intervention. So those four blocks of discussion are covered and it could take three or four days, eight hours a day, so 24 hours, 32 hours, to complete that intervention process. And at the end, the person will decide to take a break, stay with the group, or leave entirely. It's so unbelievable that, you know, you're

Starting point is 00:22:06 approaching someone who has an answer for everything. Because when people become involved in these cults, and this is from my vast experience watching every documentary that I can, the programming is such that it's like they're trained to know what people will say to try and get them to leave, right? Like they've heard it all. I'm thinking of the TikTok dance cult that, you know, is kind of more recent in a lot of people's memory. And, And, you know, the documentary series follows, in particular, this family that sees what's going on. But every time they try and approach their child, they're met with, you know, I know what you're trying to do. I can explain away where the leader's money went.

Starting point is 00:22:54 Like, I have the answers to everything. It's so fascinating to me the level of mind control that, you know, that takes place. Can you give us some examples of the breaking down process? because to my understanding, the only way that you can get someone to believe so deeply, faithfully, turnover bank accounts, have sex in, you know, situations that they shouldn't, right? The only way to do that is for them to be broken down and feel that they're essentially an open vessel for whatever the cult is delivering. Can you give us some examples of what that breaking down process looks like?

Starting point is 00:23:31 And I have some guesses, but I'm curious if there are categories. There's one group that had it very systematized, and that was the drug rehabilitation community called Synanon. They had a kind of therapy process called the hot seat. So they would take a person, put them in a chair in the center of a circle of people, and that would be the hot seat. And then everyone in the circle surrounding them, other members' leadership, would be bombarding them. with questions and criticism about how they behave, how they react to things. That's just a Saturday night in my house growing up. Like that's just too sick.

Starting point is 00:24:18 Yeah, I had a Jewish mother who could be critical. And by the way, I had a bubby who was always critical. Sorry, I was just kidding, but that's kind of funny. I can remember taking my grandmother out many times for lunch. and I always give the waitress money up front and say, look, she's going to send things back. She's very critical. She's going to attack the food. Get ready.

Starting point is 00:24:45 She also may attack you personally and find your deepest insecurity and magnify it. Yeah. Can you imagine a buppy cult? Okay. Okay. So go back. So you're in a circle and everyone's saying bad things about you. And you're going to collapse eventually.

Starting point is 00:25:02 And also they're soliciting confession from you. So they're saying, you know, this thing that you came to us with, you were addicted to heroin. You were an alcoholic. You did this. You did that. You know, they're trying to cave you in and create an engender dependency. And so what frequently is the narrative of people entering cults is that they're trying to cave you in and create an gender dependency. of people entering cults

Starting point is 00:25:31 is that they were at a time of vulnerability. Something went wrong. They were going through a divorce. They lost their job. They weren't doing well in school. They were suffering from addiction. Suffering from addiction. Someone close to them died.

Starting point is 00:25:48 They were depressed. It isn't always that narrative, but that's a very frequent narrative. And we all go through rough patches in our lives. And some of us just have the bad, luck to be recruited by a group called a cult at that time. And it may be someone that we know, a relative, an old boyfriend, girlfriend, someone close to us that we trust, who then is the one who says, hey, I know you're not feeling well. I know you're feeling bad. I can see you're

Starting point is 00:26:24 struggling. I have a group that I go to that could be very helpful. Would you, would you come with me? There's many things going through my head. The first one I thought of was Scientology. And I'm not just sort of being like, oh, Scientology is a call. I'm saying that one of the techniques that was designed by El Ron Hubbard, one of the techniques was a sort of truth telling, right? It was placing you. and they also had equipment that could supposedly, you know, tell where your weakness spots are. Is that what we're talking about on a larger scale? Well, Maya, what you're discussing is what's called auditing. So it's or spiritual counseling is how Scientology would describe it.

Starting point is 00:27:12 And you're holding a couple of metal cans that are connected by wires to a box that is called an e-meter. Now, what it really is is a galvanic response measuring apparatus. So it measures nervous tension, perspiration, and the needle moves when you're nervous. So as you're going through a Q&A with your auditor about what's going on in your life, that person that is your auditor, they can see what makes you nervous. So they can stop at a particular point and then drill down into a series of questions. to go deeper once they identify an area that they would cause a problem or that is making you nervous. What that is is confession.

Starting point is 00:28:02 You're confessing everything to the auditor. They're taking copious notes which they put in your file, and they now know you. They know what buttons to push. They know what your vulnerabilities are, et cetera. In fact, in Scientology, there's a desired in their training and their courses to identify what they would call your ruin or the key thing that is wrong in your life, which you want to deal with and you need their help to deal with. So Scientology has a way of breaking people down through their courses and their auditing process. The other thing I thought of is when we're in a vulnerable place, right? How many times have we spoken to a friend and said, I'm feeling down, I'm feeling depressed, or whether it's the state of the world or politics, you know, everything feels too much.

Starting point is 00:29:02 I'm going to say this not because I believe that all meditation is a cult, but there's a certain recommendation that people have made to me. I'd say half a dozen times. I live in Southern California. I'm not going to name names, but I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. And people have said, like, oh, you're in this state. I've got the thing for you. I know the thing that's going to change your life. And they recommend a particular type and category of meditation.

Starting point is 00:29:32 How do you know if something is a legitimate good idea that involves a necessary connection point, right? Sometimes with a group, sometimes with a teacher. How do you know the difference between that? And is this the way that I accidentally slide into a cult? If it's a group, like, for example, TM, Transcendental Meditation. Which is a very legitimate, significant kind of meditation that people do. I would question it because Maharishi Maheshiyogi was an interesting character, a guru. And my question is, when you're in meditation, you're in a very suggestible state.

Starting point is 00:30:16 how does the group use that suggestible state? Do they try to use it as an opening to instill loyalty to the leader to the group? Do they try to make you feel indebted to the group for whatever you think you've gotten out of the meditation? I mean, to what extent does the group conform to the criteria of thought reform? For example, you know, milieu control, social isolation, the cult of confession. Do they solicit confession? Do they look for that kind of catharsis? And where does that lead to you becoming more dependent upon them or more independent and critical thinking on your own? And to what extent can the groups, as Lifton would call it, their sacred science be questioned. Are there basic assumptions about the group's practice of meditation that cannot be questioned? Is the leader ever wrong? When was Maharishi wrong? What ideas or theories did he have that were later disproven? For example, with El Ron Hubbard, Elron Hubbard believed in this idea that drugs or toxins could be stored in the fatty tissues of the body indefinitely.

Starting point is 00:31:51 Now later, science would prove that that's not true. That, for example, if you use drugs, if you use controlled substances, they are not permanently embedded within your fatty tissues. And they, in fact, are dispelled over a period of time. Hubbard did not ever acknowledge that. Science would later prove that. But Hubbard created a ritual within Scientology called a purification rundown, where you go through saunas and you ingest vegetable oil and high doses of niacin to dispel these toxins from the body.

Starting point is 00:32:33 But the theory that is the basis for the purification rundown has been proven to be false. So science has proven that. Can the leader be wrong? Does Scientology acknowledge that this theory of Hubbard became outdated? And because they are Scientology, they're based in some way on science and therefore new discoveries, new research. No, the purification rundown is still being done. and the group does not dispute any part of Hubbard's theory. So that's when you know you're in a kind of cultic group

Starting point is 00:33:12 when those kind of questions and criticism cannot be offered. There is a spiritual concept here that damage that we do to our bodies, right, stays with us. The memory is held kind of psychically, but that's not what Scientology was getting at. However, there's something interesting about the physiological components that you talked about because some of the early treatments for alcoholism, right, before we even called it alcoholism, some of those early treatments were kind of a, you know, a nutritional purging, right? There were all these crazy stories of the things that like when you'd be put in the sanatorium, like they'd put, they'd give you like lots of pickled onions or, you know, they were trying to basically leach the alcohol, right, out of your body. but that leads to my next question.

Starting point is 00:34:03 And we've spoken to a lot of people who belong to 12-step programs here. You know, we talk a lot about mental health and spiritual recovery. You know, the thing that's interesting about 12-step groups is there is no centralized leader. You know, our leaders are trusted servants. They do not govern. You know, there's actually no human that you can speak to, you know, for any of the 12-step programs. There are local chapters and we have things like that. But I think it was when we had Moshe Kasha on.

Starting point is 00:34:28 He actually talked about he was found recovery very young. I think he was 15 years old when he first stepped into an AA room. And he talked about, you know, the evolution of what it's like to have a set of rules that really cannot be challenged and what it's like to stay in that system. Can you talk a little bit about, you know, and this is not to disparage 12-step programs, but when people are in a vulnerable state, can you talk about, you know, how especially in addiction that can be manipulated? line be Alex breakdown is supported by no CD Have you ever found yourself stuck replaying conversations over and over trying to feel completely sure that like that friend doesn't secretly hate you or have you spent hours researching a minor ache or pain even after the doctor said you're fine

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Starting point is 00:37:09 If you're looking for spiritual wisdom that is accessible and actionable, check out Insights at the Edge from Sounds True. Listen to new episodes of Insights at the Edge every week. Follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Watch full video episodes of Insights at The Edge at YouTube.com. slash Sounds True Many Voices or add free on Sounds True One. Well, what I would say is that alcoholics anonymous or narcotics anonymous in and of themselves are not what I would describe as a destructive cult.

Starting point is 00:37:42 Right. Based on the previous three core characteristics that I identified. To some extent, they are using a kind of coercive persuasion. You have a sponsor, there's group confession, etc. But as you pointed out, the leader, the originator of AAA is long since dead, and there is no authoritarian leader that is running the organization. Having said that, I think that we can question the effectiveness of AAA, how many people are successful in staying sober and for how long, and there are other alternatives to AAA. It is not the only way to go. And to the extent,

Starting point is 00:38:27 that someone might believe that A.A. is the one and only way, that could be seen as somewhat cult-like. That's interesting. And I would add this, Ma'am, is that there have been a number of cults that have insinuated themselves surreptitiously within AA meetings to recruit people who are vulnerable, who are going to those meetings. And in fact, Senanon, which was the creation of a by the name of Charles Diedrich. Diedrich started with A.A. and then he had this rehabilitation community, which became a very destructive cult.

Starting point is 00:39:08 So there's that history interwoven within the AA, you know, Alcoholics Anonymous community. Okay, my next question, and this is all from literally you describing cults and describing the deprogramming process. So I am a person of faith, but I cannot help, but notice that the ways that you describe a cult, especially that vulnerability, the confession process, which literally is part of certain aspects of religious practice,

Starting point is 00:39:39 I mean, when you describe what people suggest when you're in a rough patch, right, come to my church. I've got the place for you. I've got the answers. You know, come here. Can you talk about, and again, not to disparage religion, but where do we go? from, you know, the opiate of the masses to, you know, a religious structure that's helpful

Starting point is 00:40:03 that can very easily slide into a lot of the things you're talking about. There is a centralized figure, and in many churches, synagogues, mosques, right? You have a leader who's your teacher. I mean, in my tradition, you stand when a person of authority whose line of thinking you believe in enters the room. You stand for them, right? where is the line between religious devotion and religious insanity? I think the line is not about what you believe.

Starting point is 00:40:34 It's how the group behaves. So we focus on behavior. And then the question needs to be asked, okay, the group or the synagogue or the church or the mosque, they have certain beliefs. How do those beliefs specifically empower the leadership? and how does the leadership use that power? So in other words, many times when I'm sitting with someone and I'm going through this deprogramming process, I'm asking them, okay, you were indoctrinated to believe certain things. Let's take each one of those things and look at it and ask ourselves,

Starting point is 00:41:16 does that empower a particular leader and give that person control over you? and what are the limits of that control? And what is the accountability for that control? So, for example, in the group the Waco Dividians, which I had experience with and brought a number of people out of that group through deprogramming, they believed that David Koresh,

Starting point is 00:41:44 whose real name was Vern Howell, that he was the Messiah, that he was God's elect on earth speaking with the authority of God. And my question to them was, how does that empower him? Can you tell him no? Can you refuse his requests? For example, he would ask married women to have sex with him, and they would comply because his was the voice of authority, the voice of God. The husbands would demure because they could not oppose his authority. So the question is, how does the authority in your group use beliefs to empower them?

Starting point is 00:42:30 And what are the limits of that power? And what is the accountability of that power? Now, I was raised within Judaism. And I was bar mitzvahed at a Union for Reform Judaism Temple or synagogue. and my rabbi worked for the congregation. He was under contract. And he was paid a salary and benefits. But there was accountability.

Starting point is 00:42:59 And then our synagogue was accountable to the union for consistency in what was being taught in the religious school. And you could challenge it. People could challenge it if they wanted to. Yeah. And if my rabbi would say to me, no, Rick. I want to ask you a question. And if I said, what, Rabbi? How did you get lucky this week?

Starting point is 00:43:25 How's your sex life? Let's talk about that. I would look at him and say, Rabbi, why are you asking me that? That's none of your business. So you need to ask yourself, what are the limits of what the group can ask me? Do I have a right to privacy?

Starting point is 00:43:43 What are their boundaries? How does the indoctrination that I've gone through empower them and disempower me? Does it put me in a position where I cannot question authority? In my experience, for example, rabbis love questions. The more questions, the more they get excited and they enjoy it. And of course, we have ordination requirements in order to become a rabbi. And there's a process of accountability. Likewise, most churches have democratic governance and checks and balances.

Starting point is 00:44:19 So do you belong to an authoritarian group where there are no checks and balances? And how do the beliefs that you've been indoctrinated to accept put you in a disadvantage in an imbalance of power with the leadership? And how is that affecting your life? The more complicated question, you know, is if religion consists of mediators, right, that get between you and God or that help facilitate communication, you know, is God the ultimate leader that cannot be challenged, right? And I think that's sort of this place where a lot of rabbis, priests, ministers, right, can get in the way because they can translate what they believe God. wants. And since most of us don't actively have conversations with God about God's desires in a practical way, I mean, that's where the manipulation can happen, right? Yes and no. So if I'm in a situation with a group like there's a what we could call a Jewish cult, and it's called Lev

Starting point is 00:45:32 to Hoare, translated it is the pure ones, which was a group that was started by a man named Shloma Helbruns that's now dead. And I've been involved in helping families leave Leve Tohor, working with children that were victims of Leve Tohor. And in fact, I submitted a report for the Attorney General of Guatemala in the proceedings where 150 children were removed from a Leve To Hoar compound. And to give people a little background, Leve to Hoar members were drawn from Israel, the United States and Canada. And Shlama Helperins originally was an Israeli, who was not a rabbi, who actually came from the secular community, but then became involved in the Hasidic community, and then moved to New York

Starting point is 00:46:27 and had, he was a kind of Hebrew teacher. And then he developed a following. And he fled from the U.S. to Canada to Mexico. and then the group ended up in Guatemala after he died in Mexico. What was the messaging? That what we follow is true Torah Judaism. We are living a life that is absolutely authentic to real true Judaism. We dress.

Starting point is 00:47:01 They've often been called extreme in their dress. the women will wear like burqas covering themselves to the extreme. The men will wear very unusual outfits. Their dietary restrictions at times were very extreme. So the inference of the group was we are more orthodox than any of the Hasidah. And some of the people were taken from the Sartmas, from the Breslov, and so on. So my point is to get to this, when I sit down with the families and the young people that have left the group or have been extracted from the group, my question is, how did these extreme claims of the group empower the leadership, disempower you, and keep you from thinking critically? And so the group was very socially isolated.

Starting point is 00:48:02 There were no Jews outside of the group that could be considered equal at parity with the group. There was always something wrong with them. How did that empower the leadership that isolated the people from the rest of the Jewish community? So unlike typical Judaism, mainstream Orthodox Judaism or Hasidic Judaism, Helbrins wasn't really following the Torah of the Talmud. So part of unwinding the control is taking it apart, looking at it, and I would at times work with rabbis from the Jewish community and ask the question, is this really the Torah? Is this really the Talmud?

Starting point is 00:48:49 Or is it something that is very extreme? It doesn't follow that tradition. But if you have a leader that believes that they are. talking to God, right? That's when, to me, this gets very complicated because how much do we want to believe that someone's got a direct line, right? And if they've got the direct line, I mean, that is the basis then for a perversion of all sorts of practices and beliefs. If what the leader says is not in the Torah, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not Jewish law, it isn't in the Talmud, then how can it be from Hashem, from God? Because if it isn't consistent with what God

Starting point is 00:49:34 reveals in the Torah and the Talmud, then what is it? So I was once involved in an intervention to get a woman who was a devout Roman Catholic out of a weird group that believed that they were exercising demons and freeing people from a, from limbo and ultimately from hell. And at one point, I got a Catholic priest on a speakerphone from New York, who was the head exorcist for the New York Diocese. Yep, we know of him. Father James Labar, may he rest in peace. He was a wonderful man. And he's on the speaker phone. This woman is a devout Catholic. And I'm saying, Father Labar, according to, to this group's leader, they can deliver people from limbo through prayer. And he said,

Starting point is 00:50:31 that's okay. And then I said, and also they can pray and bring people out of hell. And Father LaBar said, what? No. Once they're in hell, they're in hell. They can't be delivered out by prayer. They've been judged. And I said, but Father, the leader says that he is receiving revelation from the Virgin Mary. How do you respond to that? And Father Labar said, I'll never forget it. He said, well, why would the Blessed Mother Mary say things that were directly in contradiction to the beliefs of the church? I mean, the church and what Mary believed and what Jesus proclaimed are consistent. So when you have a leader that is what I would call isolating scripture out of content or is extra biblical, they're speaking things through revelation, the question to ask is,

Starting point is 00:51:34 is that consistent with the religious traditions that they claim they represent? And if it isn't, what does that mean? And the next question, if it isn't and it empowers them and gives control over me, isn't that a self-serving device? And shouldn't I really question that? When you're in a cult, when you're in this kind of tornado, right? I mean, I think this is the challenge that you have with deprogramming, you know, the entire belief system about how information is even passed down shifts. And, you know, the example I'm thinking of is in, trust me, the false prophet, which is about Sam Bateman and the, you know, the infiltration, right, of this very, very extreme outside of LDS, you know, community. The notion that these prophets were able to

Starting point is 00:52:34 communicate was that that was the truth and I've got the new truth, right? That may have been what Jesus said at that time, but I have received, right, a series of, you know, fill in the blank, revelations, visions, whatever it is. The question that I have with every cult that I've ever heard about, does the person who's the leader actually believe this, meaning, is this the delusion? Is this, you know, what we would say, oh, this is a mental illness? This is a psychosis. This is a sociopathy, right? Do they truly believe it in all of their soul and being or, you know, I think with the nexium, you know, kind of situation, it almost felt like, is this a part that's being played? Is there a way that you can help us understand what the

Starting point is 00:53:28 difference is between someone who truly believes it and even though there may be evil and harm done? They honestly believe that this is the path or I've got the ability to get people to do whatever I want. I can have sex with whoever I want. You know, you see this a lot. with, you know, cults from yogic practices and traditions, you know, how much of it? Like, how do we know if it's true? Can you tell if it's true? Margaret Singer was a clinical psychologist. She wrote the book Colts in Our Mids. She worked in recovery with over a thousand former cult members. And I once said to her, Margaret, do you think that David Koresh is a psychopath? And she said, Rick, they're all psychopaths.

Starting point is 00:54:14 And so many, many cult leaders, Charles Manson, David Koresh, and I believe Keith Rennary, are Shlomo Helbrin's psychopaths. And in the case of Samuel Bateman and Shlomo Helbrun's pedophiles who sexually abused children. And what is their motivation? Their deeply disturbed personalities frequently described. as malignant narcissists, they don't have a sense of right or wrong like you or me. Their attitude is what's right is what's right for me. And what's bad or wrong is what doesn't serve my purpose. And I think many of them are very much aware that they're deceiving people,

Starting point is 00:55:08 that they're lying. But they believe in the philosophy, the ends justify the means. And the end is, I get what I want. And what you see in groups, and they vary, let me just point out that not all destructive cults are equally destructive. So there are some that are much more destructive than others. The Bateman group is an example of one of the most destructive. And what you see in the Bateman group is the extreme isolation that was necessary in order to preclude. any other thought, any other consideration of what was going on.

Starting point is 00:55:50 And what the psychologist who managed to permeate the group did was she was able to percolate and feed into alternative perspectives, ideas. And this is why I frequently will recommend to people who are troubled and they're in a particular group and they're saying, gee, I'm kind of confused. I don't know what to think. I've seen some things that bother me. Unplug. Unplug from the group because so many of these groups are dependent upon you constantly being

Starting point is 00:56:27 recharged by group indoctrination, by being plugged in, by being isolated in the group. So if you can get away from the group, you can then think independently, bounce things off people that are outside the group that have the group. no agenda. And then you can think more freely. That's kind of what happened. And, you know, the reason that I think also, you know, why trust me, false profit was such a, you know, powerful depiction is, you know, it's very, very difficult to infiltrate these kinds of groups because part of the control is to create a distrust of the outside world, right? I mean, it's like the best way, right? I mean, best in quotes. It's the best way to do it, which makes, you know, anyone kind of penetrating

Starting point is 00:57:19 that circle, you know, an immediate threat. I think what's also, you know, what really touched me about that story and it is more recent, which is why I'm bringing it up. It was one mother who said something's not right, right? Like something snapped her out of this trance. And it was like a maternal instinct, right, that said, like, something is not right with my kid, you know, in this situation. We're going to hit pause here on our conversation with Rick Allen Ross. There is so much more coming up in part two. The warning signs of abusive and controlling relationships, how to know if you're dating a narcissist,

Starting point is 00:58:00 and how many psychological mechanisms that are found in cults appear in everyday life, in our workplaces, in our conversations about UAPs, how are intelligent people becoming trapped in systems that erode independent thinking? All that and more in part two of our conversations. with Rick Allen Ross. From our breakdown to the one we hope you never have. We'll see you next time. It's my and B.R. X breakdown.

Starting point is 00:58:23 She's gonna break it down for you. She's got a neuroscience PhD or two. One fiction was a now she's gonna break down. It's a breakdown. She's gonna break it down.

Mayim Bialik's Breakdown - Cult Leaders Target You At Your Weakest. Never Confess This To Them | Rick Alan Ross

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