Mayim Bialik's Breakdown - Dr. David Richo: Don’t Bring Childhood Wounds into Adult Relationships

Episode Date: August 22, 2023

David Richo PhD, MFT (psychotherapist, teacher, writer, and workshop leader) shows us how to become the best we can be at loving as he dispels the myths of what love actually is, explains how our relationships with our parents may unwittingly affect our romantic partnerships, and the key factors needed to build real trust. He discusses the changes he’s seen in relationships over the decades, the spiritual integrity component of successful relationships, and how the mindsets of ego can negatively impact any relationship. Dr. Richo demonstrates practical language used to strengthen a relationship after conflict and shares ways to identify candidates who are qualified to be in a healthy adult relationship. He reveals how his findings hold up when considering polyamorous connections, how fear manifests itself in relationships, why expressing appreciation should never be underestimated, and why we are more likely to be emotionally satisfied during the \"honeymoon stage.\" Dr. Rich also explains how to mirror healthy love for your children, the actual forms of nurturing kids crave from their parents, and practical ways to teach children independence. Dr. David Richo’s book, How to Be an Adult in Relationships: https://www.shambhala.com/how-to-be-an-adult-in-relationships-9781611809541.html Dr. David Richo's book, How to Be an Adult in Love: https://www.shambhala.com/how-to-be-an-adult-in-love-2943.html Get 25% off his online course, "How to Be an Adult in Relationships", with code "MB25": https://how-to-be-an-adult-in-relationships.webflow.io/ BialikBreakdown.com YouTube.com/mayimbialik Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In essence, a relationship is two children, it makes me cry, two children tugging at each other's sleeve, shouting in unison, look what happened to me when I was a kid, make it stop and make it better for me. This knocked me over. And to think that, you know, a partnership, which also has so much beauty and joy, also has this in the pain. What came to mind when you're reading that is a quote from, I think it's Zechariah, this is a quote from the Bible. Look at how I was wounded in the house of those who loved me. The shock of betrayal, when you realize that it looks like they loved me and then they turned against me in some way at some point. could it be that they turned against me when they saw who I really am? And this makes it very scary to be free, free to be who you are in the world,

and really trust that it's going to be okay. And yes, we are like children who are hoping, sometimes hoping against hope, that somebody will love me as I always wanted to be loved. And my parents didn't come through in that way, we might think. And it can also be the truth that they didn't come across in a truly loving way. We're no longer blaming them, but we are acknowledging that it's still a affecting us.

It's my and be our legs break down. She's going to break it down for you. Because you know she knows a thing or two. So now she's going to break down. It's a broken. Amazon Pharmacy presents painful thoughts. I read somewhere that the average American spends 13 hours a year waiting in pharmacies for prescriptions.

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where we break things down. So you don't have to. Today we're going to break down how the heck to be an adult in relationships. Period. Not easy. It's not easy. But I I discovered this book, which was written half a minute ago by a person named David Rico. And I've been reading this book. I've been making Jonathan read this book, which after reading the book, it told me I shouldn't make him read this book. If he wants to read the book, he'll read the book. But how to be an adult in relationship, the five keys to mindful loving, is a book

by psychotherapist, teacher, writer, David Rico. and he taught at Esselin for 25 years, which is a huge center of progressive psychology and incredible work. He's the author of over 20 books. I don't know if he's been asked to be on a podcast, but he agreed to come on. I literally said to Valerie, is he still with us? Like, I didn't know.

I don't know anything about him, except this book rocked my brain. It doesn't matter what type of relationship you're looking for. Yes, it's fantastic if you're looking for love, if you want romantic relationship. But this book will transform how you relate to everyone in your life. Yeah, the things that Dr. Rico, he's asked me to call him David, the things that David talks about in this book are literally the things that we all need just to function in this world. He does have a spiritual approach. He comes from a Catholic backer. and then switched over to Buddhism. But it's a book that also has exercised at the end of each chapter. And I just needed to talk to this man and see who this person was who wrote this book

that every single paragraph, there's something I'm underlining and highlighting and freaking out about. His most recent book is Ready, how to know when to go and when to stay. He's kind of, like, he has run the gamut of understanding and communicating to people. about healthy, grounded relationships in a really, really eloquent, beautiful way. It's such a

pleasure to welcome to the podcast, David Rico. Break it down. Thanks for inviting me. I'm very excited that you're here. I consider it one of the great accomplishments of having a podcast that Valerie was able to track you down. Your book, How to Be an Adult in Relationships, the Five Keys to Mindful Loving is kind of like, it's my number one book in my life when people say, I'm having trouble in my relationship and we can't figure it out and what's going on. And I don't know if this is the solution for everyone, but this is a profound, profound piece of literature.

And I am so excited to speak to you about it. Jonathan and I both have it. Different covers, though. So that's exciting. Yeah, the difference is you have the you, Miami, you have the original one, 2002. Yes. And then he has the 20th year anniversary one, which has all that you have plus more. So I win.

Jonathan, well, Jonathan wins in all things, but especially in this. Here's the thing, and this is what I'm going to say about your book. There's not a paragraph that goes by that I have not. underlined, highlighted, put exclamation points, circled. So I've grown very fond of my copy. Before we kind of get into, and you've written other books. You have an entire career. You are not just this book.

But if you only wrote one book in your life, it would be okay if it was this book. But I wonder if you can tell us a little bit about sort of where your career got started, how you decided to become a psychotherapist. You also, you know, were part of the Esselin community. So can you talk a little bit about sort of when you knew you wanted to help people the way you help them and sort of where that came from? It seems like a kind of a calling. I don't see it as a business venture.

I see it more as there was something in me that was able to say things. and find out things about human relating. And I became a therapist in 1969, so it's now over 50 years. Wow. And I've worked with couples and individuals, I would say about 5,000 people. And from them and from my own experience

and from students, because I also teach, I learned what you're finding in the book. And were you someone as a child who was emotionally sensitive, intuitive? I mean, 1969 is obviously, it's a minute ago. And, you know, my parents were born during World War II. It was a very different generation, you know, that my parents were first generation Americans. And, you know, my father of blessed memory was not someone

who was really conditioned to have a tremendous amount of kind of emotional intuitiveness. He was a very sensitive and emotional person. But, you know, for all humans, and I think especially men, you know, growing up at the time that I'm assuming you did was a very different time than the times we think of now where people are encouraged to kind of tap into that. Was it something you sensed as a child, as a teenager? I mean, I'm just curious, like, how you get to be, you. I would say, and I also am the child of first generation immigrants, and I was brought up in New Haven, Connecticut. And I always had a sensitivity and love for, it began with a love for poetry, which I still have. And then I noticed that I had some writing skills. And so I, you know,

kept working on that. And I guess there was always the idea of being of help in some way. I was brought up with people who, like, for instance, my grandparents and their brothers and sisters, and they couldn't speak English. So I think it began with my trying to explain things to them, make things clearer. and like teach them English to whatever extent I could. And that seemed also like a way of helping. Also, when I was brought up, you didn't get a lot of crudos or appreciation for sensitivity.

The sensitivity, I mean, I'm sorry, the crudos and the appreciation came if you were good at sports. Were you good at sports? No, I was not. But I was the guy that, you know, the jocks came to to help him with their homework. So I found a place to be me. And, yeah, I always had something in me that wanted to be of help. And where did you go to college? I first felt I had a calling to the priesthood.

so I was a Catholic priest and I went to a seminary. Oh. Yeah. Seminary was in St. Thomas Seminary in Connecticut and then St. John's Seminary in Boston. Wait, let's just pause for a second. You had a calling to be a priest. Yes, and I was ordained. Oh. This was during Vietnam times.

So my priesthood, which lasted three years. was mainly about being anti-war. And I joined with Quakers during that time. And gradually I realized priesthood was not really for me. And also, you know, he had a political difference because church seemed more conservative and not blaming anybody. But anyway, I moved on.

Then I got married the next year or two later. Okay, so David, let's just take a pause. Because the first thing I think of when I think of priests is that they can't have sex. Oh. So you were committed to essentially a relationship with God, as it were. Combination of the, you know, thinking I didn't really have a calling for celibacy. and secondly, the political issue. Got it.

So then what happened? Where did you meet this person? Was she a nun? She was high school. She was in my class in high school. Wow. So then I, we had a son who is now 50. And we also,

we're able to join more liberal causes. So it all felt like it fit. Secondly, we moved to California from New England. And then when I got here, I got a job teaching in the adult division of Santa Barbara City College. And one of my courses was about how relationships work. and the notes from that course are the beginning of the book. You settled in, did you settle in that part of? My Ambialx breakdown is supported by Superpower.

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And after you sign up, they'll ask how you heard about them. Make sure to mention my ambiolics breakdown to help support the show. the state, when did Esselin become part of your community? Then, yeah, then I started teaching at Essela. And I taught there for like every year for about 25 years. And I also taught at San Damiano Catholic Retreat Center. And I also taught at Spirit Rock Buddhist Retreat Center. So I keep combining some Christian-oriented work with Buddhist work.

I wasn't leaving the priesthood with any anger. I was just, you know, gently recognizing it wasn't for me. And yet taking with me what I thought was still valuable, such as the archetypal meanings of many religious beliefs. And in Christianity, God, himself is a relationship because of his father, son, and Holy Spirit, they relate to each other.

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I kind of want to work our way through some of the concepts of how to be an adult in relationships in particular. You know, the book is divided into the home we leave, struggles along the way and returning the blessing. and the bulk of the book is, you know, spent with a lot of the struggles. But I want to first focus on, you know, the first two chapters, which is how it all began, and then the second chapter is called Love and Less, which I really love in so many ways. You talk a lot about the significance and importance of kind of knowing where you came from as a basis of self-exploration and then kind of being able to take that self into whatever relationship you are in or hope to be in. And the first question I want to ask is something that

a lot of people who are skeptical or resistant to psychotherapy ask me. And I've been in psychotherapy since I'm, oh gosh, 17 years old, 18 years old. What would be your answer to the question, Like, why dig into the past? Like, why go there? Especially if you came from pain or challenge. Like, why do you have to go back? Why unearth it? What happened to us in early life continues to affect us in the way we relate to others.

And specifically, in the areas that I'm working with, which I call the five A's, attention. affection, appreciation, acceptance, and allowing, that these are five of the many needs that we come into the world with. And to the extent that these needs were met in childhood, we gained the capacity ever after to be able to be with people satisfactorily who only give us a modicum,

a moderate amount of those five A's. So we're designed to have all five 100% in very early life in the first five years, say. And if we did receive them, with them, we received the capacity to be satisfied with what other humans offer, namely a more reasonable dose. But if we were not fulfilled, then the very ones that were not taken care of by our parents, or whoever our early caretakers were, they become like bottomless pits.

And then I just can't get enough of the attention that I missed originally. or another way of saying it is, if I didn't remember anything about my childhood, I could piece it together by how I work with each of those five days. The ones that I'm totally okay with and don't want a lot of, those are probably the ones they gave me good enough most of the time, not perfect. That's all we need, just good enough most of the time.

and the ones that I keep craving for more and more of, the Buddhist definition of suffering, continuous craving for that, which is ultimately impermanent, as if it were permanent, that shows me what I must have missed out on. And if I'm still blaming my parents for how they didn't come through

in all the ways that I was hoping they would, then I'm also still still, tied to the past, I still haven't left home. Because the real issue now is how you hold your experience inside yourself. It's no longer a transaction between those two little people, mother and father. Then these same five days are the ones that we want in relationship. And we look for someone or believe we have found someone because of all the heady romance. and romance is full of all the five eggs. So it seems like, oh, I found someone who's going to provide them in an ongoing way,

again, seeking permanence, another inroad into suffering. Whereas actually all we could ever hope for from one another is a reasonable amount in a good enough way. most of the time. Basically, the past is still happening in the present. William Faulkner said, one of my books is called The Past in the Present. Title says it all. And while I was writing that book,

turned on the radio once, and there was a quote from William Faulkner, who said, the past isn't ended, it isn't even past. I thought, oh, he summarized my whole point. You see, it's as if there were two mountain peaks. First, you get to the mountain peak of the end of childhood and you're beginning your adult life.

Think of that as peak number one. Then we have the other peak, which is to design a relationship that really works and that is fully adult. We imagine we can simply jump from one peak to the other, but the actual work is to go down the original peak through the valley of darkness and then back up to the peak of healthy relating.

You can't jump over, you can only go down and through and up. The book shows the journey from the first peak down through the valley up to the next peak. There's a quote, and I were talking about, and it says, everyone you meet,

you're meeting everyone who's ever hurt them, which is reflective in what you just said. you know, that there's an idea of cellular memory and you said the deprivation or fulfillment are recorded in every cell of our bodies. I think my job in this interview is just going to be repeating what you've said so that people are tracking at home because the level of information actually that you're providing here is textbooks worth of detail that people aren't always aware of how that's impacting their lives. So if the deprivation or fulfillment from their childhoods are being recorded in their cells, what they may not realize is how much that's

impacting their perception of a current moment. Definitely. Or how much it's motivating their behavior to go out and seek something that they see as a positive attribute in a partner only to get over the lust phase of the relationship in three, seven, 12 months, and then realize, wait a second, the person I'm actually have in front of me right now, well, they have their own profile that I wasn't even aware of because I was caught up in trying to fulfill my needs. They were trying to jump over the same way you were. Instead of thinking of a relationship as embarking upon a kind of work together that we do, what is this work, is to find a way to love effectively.

purely, wholeheartedly, while still maintaining our own personal boundaries. And when you didn't have any models for how to do that from early life, and all of us mammals learn by imitation, then you need some help. And so, you know, the self-help movement has come along and given us that kind of help. I'm fascinated by by present culture and the impacts of dating and how you've seen

changes in relationship dynamics from when you started in the early 70s or earlier through to today and now there's media has exploded, people meet in all sorts of different ways it feels like it's harder

to convince people that the model of relationships is, as you described it, finding ways to love each other wholly while maintaining yourself versus using others as a distraction or being swept up in Hollywood notions of what type of romance is sold to us, that we see someone across the room and we have, you know, just this knowing that we're meant to be together forever or that we're going to just like magically have this amazing life if only the right person comes in to our sphere and and they match, like, how do you, you know, see that things have changed? And how do people today, like, dispel some of the myths that have been sold to them about

what love is? It seems like we have learned something over the recent years. Like, it's no longer as much some enchanted evening, you know, you will meet a stranger. And that's the person you always wanted and will always have. but we haven't become smart enough yet, I don't think, to realize how much genetic, psychological, genetic material we're still holding on to from whatever happened to us prior to this relationship, both from childhood and from other relationships, which might or might not have worked.

and just an awareness of this and total honesty about it really makes a difference. And I also suggest, and I do mention this in the book, that couples who stay together are the ones who are not afraid to have like a state of the union discussion. imagine doing this like every six months or so hey let's just talk about where our relationship is as of now what needs am I finding really fulfilled here

what needs are not fulfilled how am I helping you with your needs and which needs of yours are fulfilled or not being honest enough to have that kind of a discussion I still don't see that Quarterly investor meeting. Amazon One Medical presents painful thoughts. I've been on hold to make a doctor's appointment for 23 minutes now.

The automated voice has told me 47 times that my call is very important to them. Hmm. I'm starting to think that they don't think my call is important at all. With Amazon One Medical 24-7 virtual care, you'll get help fast without having to remain on the line to make an appointment. Amazon One Medical. Health care just got less painful. Thanks. I want you to take us back to this notion of the five A's, which, you know, it's...

Some of them are, I think, more intuitive than others, right? Like attention, like, I get it, right? Acceptance, I get it. Appreciation is a little more, I think, complicated when you kind of think about how should parents show appreciation, right? How do you model that? affection is, you know, also I think somewhat clear, but can be confusing. And obviously, families in particular that may have abuse or lack of boundaries. And allowing, you know, also is one of these

really interesting, it's an interesting fifth A. I want you to, I want you to walk us through. And I know, you know, what you said is good enough most of the time, right? That's what we're kind of like, and I'm a parent. Jonathan's a parent. I have a, how old are my children, John? I have an almost 15 and a 17-year-old. Jonathan has a 15-year-old. And we both, separately, we are not, we did not have children together, but we both practice detachment parenting

and, you know, very, like, conscious and very progressive and all the things. But I want you to walk us through these five A's in kind of as bullet-pointy away as possible for you to explain to us what would it look like for parents to provide kind of safe and healthy attention, acceptance, appreciation, affection, and allowing. What does it look like?

First of all, regarding attention, the better word, the softer word is attentiveness. And when you're first born and have no vocabulary, all you can do is cry in different ways. the parents have to be attentive enough 24-7 to be able to tell what you're needing in that moment. Do I need to be fed, held, or changed? And I have a different cry for each of these. And when I notice that my parents get it and fulfill the need, appropriately, I begin to trust that I was born into a world where people really do care and that they can respond. And that my communications land somewhere. I'm already getting a sense of

agency. Then I start to, at the same time, I am asking to be held. That really means a physical affection. And I want to be held in a way that has a lot of cuddling and warmth to it. And I find that also in my parents. So now we're doing this as if it were an ideal. Yep. I'm all about the idea. Yeah. And this tells me that my body is wonderful just as it is.

And it also tells me that there's a genuine caring, a loving feeling coming toward me. And of course, now we know that the brain does not fully evolve until around age 25. and that a big part of the brain evolving is the physical holding of the baby. I am born into a household that might also have brothers and sisters, and this is where the appreciation comes in. Within the word appreciation is the Latin word for price. So by appreciation here, I mean... that you feel valued, that they love having you, that you're not, you weren't just another burden in the family, that you are not being taken for granted, and that you're not being compared to the other siblings, that you're loved and valued just as you're.

are. Then you start showing your actual personality profile and now you're kind of testing. You're trying to find out, will all the sides of me be welcome here or will some be rejected and only a few accepted? Opposite of accepting is rejecting. So when you notice that they accept all of you with all of your proclivities and interests with what you want to focus on rather than what they want you to focus on. You're noticing they're not trying to make you into something. They are very curious about what you're becoming. So that's the acceptance. Then you, one day, you crawl across the floor and you realize I no longer need them to carry me across. I have started a long lifetime process of becoming independent.

Were they okay with that or did they grab you and want to carry you across anyway? Did they allow you to go when you were ready to go? Then, of course, you went to school. then you went to college, so forth. And every time you were going in some way, they were okay with it. Opposite of allowing his controlling. So in the ideal household,

it would look something like that. It's love as a caring, committed connection that's shown through these five A's attention, acceptance, appreciation, affection, and allowing. Every chapter of your book has exercises at the end. And one of the exercises in this chapter, how it all begins, I'm just going to cry.

I'm just letting you know. I'm going to cry. It's going to happen. And you have five sentences. And I read these to Jonathan because I was like, this is this is what it is. I am paying close attention to you now. I accept you as you are in this moment. I allow you to be yourself. I appreciate you for what you have been and are. I have real affection for you no matter what. Like that's that is it. And it has to obviously be enacted through

a million interactions that a child has with a parent. And in particular, in, I don't mean to be heteronormative or gender biased. I'm sure you've, you know, you've had to exist through a lot of changing definitions of all sorts of identity. But those are typically the things that a child is first experiencing with the person that gave birth to them slash is their mother. And, you know, the development of a primate, you know, whether it's a human or another kind of primate looks in, in, you know, millions of little ways like these five sentences, right? Like that's the, that's sort of what, what we're all in some way imprinted with. I want you to talk a bit about why your book has a spiritual component. So Jonathan had mentioned,

you know, how do we understand love as a spiritual journey? Why, why does this book have a spiritual component. Well, because I'm the one who were and what with my background and then finding Buddhism. There was no way I could imagine a world that did not include

the spiritual. There could never be such a thing as it's all in psychology 101. I'd like to use a simple example. Please. And this

is one that I have thought, well, this is a good one to use to explain why it would be necessary in a successful relationship to have spiritual integrity and loving kindness as your two main personal commitments. And we're not talking about God belief. I just want people to be clear. This is not like you have to believe in God to have a successful relationship. But the overarching principle of this book is that we are human beings with a spiritual identity that seeks a spiritual grounded connection in others, that in some ways has divinity in it.

It's otherworldly. It's got magic to it. It's, it can be mystical. And, you know, as a scientist, I identify very strongly with the scientific basis of a spiritual experience, which you also talk about. but I just want people to be clear that this is not like you have to believe in God, bring God into your relationship. That's not the purpose of what you talk about with love as a spiritual journey. Right. Well, thanks for clarifying that. And yes, I'm more oriented toward using words like higher power.

Higher power than what? Higher power than our ego, which thinks it's in full control and is unwilling to bow to the givans of life, one of which is sometimes people don't come through for you the way you want them to. When this happens, how are you going to hold it? Because it certainly will happen in the course of any relationship. If you were just to work on this psychologically, you would be, one, assertive, two, communicative, three, asking for some type of agreement to make things different. So you would say, you know, ouch, when you said this, and, you know, my feelings are hurt. And secondly, I want to be able to talk about this. I want us to be able to communicate in ways that

don't hurt each other. And we're doing this without any blaming, just like matter-of-factly. And then I'd like to make an agreement for, you know, how we use words toward each other in the future. So that would be working just psychologically. But when you add this and I'm making a personal commitment here never to retaliate. So I'm never going to come back at you and make you feel hurt. even if you're sarcastic, I'm not going to use a comeback because I'm committed to a spiritual path in which there is no longer retaliation, only reconciliation. There is no longer trying to get back at someone. There is no longer such a thing as what goes around comes around.

no, now is Maywood goes around, come around in a way that helps all of us. So I'd like you to know that no matter what happens with our dialogue, the one thing you can trust is I will never be doing anything to get back at you. Right, that's a spiritual concept, right. You're bringing in something spiritual because if you went to Freud and you said, well, I got back at her anyway. You'd say, oh, okay, yeah. Oh, Freud.

Like, it's okay, you know, from psychological point of view. And by the way, I myself made a vow, never knowingly to retaliate again. It changed my life. I made this vow to Buddha. And a wonderful thing about the vow was I didn't plan to me. make it. I was just in a temple and I looked at the statue of Buddha

and I said I'd like to vow never again to retaliate in a knowingly of course and you know that's a difficult thing for an Italian person to do

because I was not brought up to believe that revenge was okay I was brought up to believe that revenge was a sacrament. It was a wonderful relief and release to let go of just that one thing. That's what I mean by bringing in a spiritual dimension. The spiritual is always the more than what psychology offers or how far psychology can go. It's also the more than what science offers. I was noticing how the, you know, just thinking about and looking at the moon,

thinking about, you know, how it goes through faces. And I said to myself, oh, I wonder what my faces are. I know the faces of the moon, but I wonder what my faces are. So now I'm seeing more than just a moon, which could be described in science. And is described quite satisfactorily. But I'm going one step further, and I'm making it into a metaphor that even has a kind of calling in it. It's inviting me to wonder how I am also doing exactly what the moon does

and other things in nature. So this is how my life has changed. I see things in this new way. I see things metaphorically. I look for the more than meets the eye, the more than what books can describe. And the challenges in relationship are met best when we come from a spiritual perspective.

So we know that the five A's are, as you, describe them, components of unconditional presence, right? It's the goal, these five A's. But the kind of dark side of those are the five mindsets of ego. These blew my mind. I mean, I always knew them and like I've studied a little Zen Buddhism, but you list fear, desire, judgment, control, and illusion as the five mindsets of ego. Like, these are the things. These are the things that will bring all of us down, whether you're in a relationship or not. Like, these are the things. So fear looks like, this is directly lifting this, I perceive a threat in you or I'm afraid you may not like me, so I'm on the defensive. So a lot of defensive behavior in relationships

is actually fear. And you put desire in there. And I was thinking like, but we want to be desired and we want to desire someone, but the dark side of it is, I'm trying to get something from you. Like, there's something you have that I'm going to possess. I'm going to skip judgment for a second because it's my favorite.

Control is I am attached to a particular outcome and I need to fix, persuade, advise, or change you. This is like my beloved. Like, there should be a picture of me next, to that quote. I'm just being honest. Illusion. I have a mental picture of or belief about you and it obscures what you're really like. I mean, this also can be magical thinking, which can feel really special and beautiful. But the fifth one, judgment, this blew my mind. Judgment can take the form of admiration, criticism, humor, positive or negative bias, labeling praise or blame.

So when I think of judgment, I think of criticism, blame negative bias. But it had never occurred to me that even those kinds of poking fun or even excessive admiration is another way of saying, I am caught up in my own opinion about you or about the situation. That blew my mind. I think a lot of people just aren't aware of how these kinds of, color their interactions. We grow up normalizing, teasing, or calling out people for certain, uh, certain criteria like, you know, it was not so uncommon to talk about physical attributes between the sibling, my siblings and I for comparisons. And I don't think that we really understand

the impacts that some of these, uh, lenses have on us. Since we have the kind of ego that could go in those five directions. It must be that to have a healthy relationship, we would have to practice letting go of ego and along with it, those five inclinations that we would no longer act on them. And that too is not something that you could get from psychology alone.

you would have to have the Bodhisattva Manjushri with his sword that cuts through the ego's proclivities you would have to have help from

individuals in your life who who call you out about these things and you'd have to have an ego that was not so arrogant that it became defensive

and denied what they said, that, you know, you would say, oh, I guess that's something I need to work on because I don't want to come across that way. How do you do that, David? I mean, like, that's, you just basically define what you need in a relationship as someone who can identify the places where your ego is taking over with fear, desire, judgment, control, and illusion, and not only be able to say, I see this in you, but you need to be to then be able to receive that and say, oh my gosh, yes. And I don't want to do it that way.

And it hurts us when I do it that way and wanting to be in a relationship where that is reciprocated, right? Like, how do we do that besides reading this book and internalizing it? You would have to really care very much about your personal work. I really do want to reduce my inflated ego so that I can come across as an equal to others rather than thinking of myself above them. And when this happens, and I think it happens by a kind of grace,

you can't get yourself to it. You just wake up one morning and you say to yourself, I don't want to be like that anymore. And you start hearing when people call you out rather than immediately jumping to a defense. That's it. Like if five people a day tell you you're an asshole, maybe you're an asshole.

You would want to be able to say yes to unanimous comments. You're very diplomatic, David. What's that saying? 50,000 Frenchmen can't be wrong. But in all seriousness, you know, the reason Jonathan and I started this podcast was kind of to talk to people about, you know, how they got to where they are on sort of their wellness journey. And this is hard work. This book is hard work. Like this is not like, I've got the book for you.

And look, you know, many people especially, and you don't only write in the relationship space. but, you know, I read Gottman's book in my marriage. I'm now divorced, you know. That's not why I got divorced. I didn't mean it like that, but I'm saying, you know, many of us have gone through those motions. We've done the things. And the fact that I found your book, you know, at a time in life when I'm not even, you know,

married. Like I've gotten so much from this kind of approach. that I recently recommended this to a younger friend of mine, who I believe is still young and hopeful enough that she, you know, she can do it. Like, people are worth saving. But I also have found that even as a divorced person, you know, I'm seeing so many things in this, you know,

like hand to God I wish I knew 20 years ago. I mean, I'm sure you get this as like your whole life. telling people things that you wish that they would have known. But to speak to Jonathan's kind of earlier question about sort of the way relationships have changed, you know, I think about, I mean, I really, I literally wrote in my notes, I need to ask David, what's up with open relationships?

And you don't need to speak to open relationships or polyamory or pansexuality or any of those things if you don't want to. But I am curious if kind of, you know, I'm sure you've seen a lot, you know, the nature of relationships is so different now than they were even 10 years ago. And obviously, relationships change all the time. But do you have a perspective on if these things still hold true, even if people don't want to be in, you know, say, a monogamous relationship. I mean, I can barely manage it with one person.

I don't know how people manage it with several, meaning I understand how people have sex with lots of people. But for people who want to have, you know, multiple intimate emotional connections, which some people seem to, these things, I'm assuming, still hold true. But how do you see those relationships in the lens of what you present? As far as I've been able to tell, and I have worked with people who are in polyamorous relationships, which means more than two people in their relationship, and they're all being sexual with each other usually,

that all of this still applies. It just makes it a little more difficult when you're trying to do it all with more than one person. but if your central orientation is to become the best person you can be at loving, then it will no longer matter as much who the objects are because you have widened your embrace and you're operating out of a standard that, you yourself trust is the one that makes you a person with spiritual consciousness and psychological health.

And it doesn't matter anymore what other people do or say. You operate out of this standard and you're glad that you have found it. And people will notice that. they'll see that you're coming across in a way that, yeah, has integrity. I love the line, become the best person you can be at loving. A lot of people want relationships. They want to get married. They want to have kids.

They want a partner. I don't hear anyone say I want to become the best person I can be at loving. And if they came from that orientation to say, I want to know someone, I want to create the space for someone, I want to have the acceptance for someone, and give them attention, how would that change? Well, it makes it much easier because, you know, it's about you rather than how can I squeeze this other person into the exact model of what I'm looking for? Instead, what you're saying is, how can I be who I am here, let you be who you are, and work out a way of showing love to one another? And the wanting to be a person who is loving in every way, it's such a beautiful and spiritual goal in life. Rather than I want to make sure that my ego gets its full hearing. I think one of the quotes in the book that I've just remembered,

see if I can get it right, that I'm not in the relationship to gratify my own ego. I am dispossessing myself of my ego to gratify the relationship. Imagine coming in with that vision of motivation, how different it is from I'm here to be right, I'm here to be on top, I'm here to be the one in control, I'm here to be the one who gets exactly what I've always wanted, and it's up to you to provide it. This is a whole other way of being. It also has a huge impact, not just in romantic relationships, but in any relationship. Oh, yeah. Anytime you're interacting with anyone, whether it be friends or family or work, this level of or this approach changes the dynamic and creates the opportunity for much more closeness.

Of course, since it is about your own standard, it spreads out. It embraces everyone. This brings us to a good place to ask about something you said earlier on is that when you're in a new relationship, you know, that, like, and insert whatever you want here, all the details, you know, the romance, like, it's early, like there's lust, it's, whatever it is. What you said is that the five A's are satisfied. I mean, they're seemingly satisfied because you are getting, like, you're getting everything you want need. It's that, that honeymoon period, right? I'm imagining if people break up and reconcile, you also probably get a taste of this again, right? And for couples that you know, have chronic breakups and getting back together.

Part of that drama is that you keep getting reassured that you're going to get what you want because every time you do it again and get those five A's, it feels like, I'm in it, I got it, everything's great. But what you also talk about, I mean, what, you know, essentially the rest of the book kind of covers is sort of what happens when that period ends, and that's a very specific physiological and psychological shift, right? When you get into a mature relationship, beyond that, then you get to really see, can this person give me the five A's?

Can I receive them? Can I give them back? There's going to be a natural shift, right, when you come out of that initial romantic period. And how do you, how do you guide? people or what's your recommendation, how do you know when it's like not going to work versus this is a different kind of relationship? Like we're not going to have sex all the time. It's not going to always feel like he remembers what I'm doing every day. Well, you can tell the difference

because you're staying with it even though the quote, thrill is gone unquote, or the thrill has become sort of milder, shall we say. Relationships go through phases, and I've identified three, but then I added one before it. The three phases are one, the one you just mentioned, romance, and then it turns into where one ego ideal meets another ego ideal. in the second phase you start to see the shadow side now you've got egos clashing and scraping against each other rather than hiding each other as they were before and under the covers of romance

so that's the crucial point am i going to work on this address what's happening let myself feel the feelings that are coming up, hear the feelings of the other person or persons, and somehow resolve things so that our life becomes smoother and we're certainly growing together. And that leads to the commitment. What is commitment? Now we notice that the agreements are,

being kept, that the issues are being faced and worked through, that the trust has become complete, and that the five days are given and received in good enough ways most of the time. That's the point at which marriage is appropriate. Marriage is not appropriate in the romance phase. I don't imagine people get married in the conflict phase. Oh, David. Ye of little faith. You mean marriage doesn't fix the conflict?

I agree. I guess some people would think that. Yeah. People do it with kids. People do it with having kids. I added one more phase early on this investigation. So, David, I just want to tell you, you've had your own life. You got kids.

I think you may have stepkids. You have a whole universe, and it's not my business, how you live your life, but this list is amazing. This list should be taught. I believe this book should be taught as part of like junior high school and high school curriculum. Like this is my belief about this book. This is how deeply connected I feel to this list because, I mean, Jonathan and I have gone through the list. It's so good. The title of the list is qualified candidates for relationships.

Obsessed with this list. The first one is lives reasonably close by. It's important. Access. Especially if you're going to do the A of physical affection. Oh, it's very hard to get affection if they don't live reasonably close by, David. Number two, can show the full spectrum of human feeling and welcomes yours. That's actually really big.

We have different versions. In my version, number two is, has no distracting ties that make true commitment impossible. Listen up, humans, such as another relationship in progress, an old relationship unfinished, a divorce pending, a parent to be cared for or consulted. Like, this is a huge one, David. This is, I mean, I'm not just, this is not just personal experience.

I cannot tell you how many women in particular I know who engage in relationships with loving, wonderful men, but who are not free or available. You put it on the list. Has no active addictions. Has no overpowering political or religious obsessions. That's really important. Wants children if you do, doesn't want them if you don't.

Great. Has the sexual capacity. accessibility and interest to satisfy you, or can work on it within the relationship. And what that means is like really works on it, doesn't just say, it'll get better. Stop complaining. There's one here that's before that in the updated edition,

which is related, is your friend and not just your sex partner, loves your company and is compatible. David's like they're literally reading me my book. This list, though, and we need to post this list because it literally, I just, I want you to know just from one human to another, there is nothing missing from this list.

And everything that you need is on this list has done at least half the work it takes to be healthy in life. At least half the work. Does not have so big an ego that you have to cater to it or else. Try dating in Los Angeles, David. You just try. You are not so infatuated that you cannot see his or her shadow side. Big one.

There's one thing you say about sex that blew my mind. I mean, there's a lot of things you say about sex that blew my mind. But this one, I believe I literally messaged Jonathan. He was working. And I typed verbatim what you said. This is one of the kind of goals. The thing that I really love about this book, also, you do a lot in the first person. you do it as interjections, meaning like when you're talking about some of the parenting aspects,

like it would really catch me, it would hit me right in the heart where you would say, am I able to do that? You know, where is this touching? I really like that. But there's this one section where you say, as a wise adult, I will know the difference between sex with someone who's doing it the way he does it and sex with someone who does it in a way that arises from our specific bond. This blew my mind because I have never heard anyone articulate it. And I'm not speaking from personal experience in case my mother is listening, which she is, hi, mom. But this, Valerie, you're not looking at me, but you know exactly what this means.

And I'm sure men do as well. This blew my mind because I've never heard someone articulate. You can be with a partner who is so skilled and so amazing and they can do all the things and all you're thinking is they've done this with every girl. And there's nothing wrong with that. Like, it's fine. And some people might be like, who cares? It's amazing.

But as a wise adult, I want to be with someone who might not even be as good of a partner, but who is dialed into me sexually. That's profound. Where does this come from? How did you think to put those words that way? David? I guess I just noticed it over the years and question myself about it.

You have to be very humble to write this kind of book. Yes, indeed. And free of a lot of the trappings of ego that you discuss and really help people also release themselves from. I want to ask you a personal question. And I want to, I know that you'll be. be honest, and if you don't want to answer it, you don't have to be. What were you like as a dad? I was hoping to give the five A's and trying, but I can't say I did it perfectly, and I also

look back and notice how controlling and demanding and manipulative I was. And when I realized this, I went back and apologized. And I also apologized to my wife once because I had so many negative feelings toward my mother who was abusive in some ways physically. And I noticed later in life that I was doing little retaliatory things before I made my bow.

Little retaliatory things toward my wife. and suddenly one day I realized, oh, you're trying to get back a mother through her. And the minute I realized that, it ended. And I also apologized. I said, I think what I've been doing, now I get it. I think some of the little ways I try to get your goat or trigger you is based on getting back as females. And I think many, many guys are doing this. It's hard to recognize it.

But once you recognize it, hopefully, you then say no more of that. But the apologizing to the kids, the wife, you know, it really, well, it's like doing your fourth step in your inventory and, you know, in the 12-step program. It releases you. And by the way, I'd like to quote something from the book Alcoholics Anonymous. We found an unsuspected resource that turned out to be the same as the higher power. We found an unexpected resource in ourselves that turned out to be what we had called the higher power. To me, that's like life-changing to realize that, oh, I have these resources in me. And these are also the ones that are filling me with grace that takes me beyond my ego.

That, to me, is why programs like Alcoholics Anonymous and 12-step programs are spiritual programs of recovery, even if you don't believe in God. in a similar way that your book is a book of spiritual progress, even if you don't believe in God, because the notion is there is something divine in being able to be free of the trappings of ego and seek and receive these five, you call them the five A's. Like that, that to me is divine. And I don't care what you pray to,

or if you pray in Latin, Hebrew, Aramaic, or whatever. That's a special. spark of divinity to be able to say, I have in me what is, you know, larger than the sum of its parts. You mentioned that a lot of men, I mean, I don't want to, like, reduce it to like mommy issues, but that a lot of men in, again, heteronormative relationships, you know, a lot of men are often using or, you know, unwittingly utilizing that relationship to try and heal, you know, sometimes with with poor skills, that kind of mother, you know, mother child wound. Do you have, I'm just curious, like, what do women generally do?

Because like people always say, women have daddy issues and they work those at. Like, is that a thing? Yeah, sometimes you've heard the expression, you know, I marry my mother or I married my father. We will be condemned to repeat whatever is left incomplete. from the past. And so if you have anger toward father that you never express, you might find the nearest innocent bystander, namely a partner to be the one who gets the punishment.

That father, that you think father deserves. From a Buddhist point of view, you know, we don't believe in punishment. we believe in working on our karma. But, yeah, I think it's both male and female. I'd like to close with you talking a little bit about one of, I think, the most powerful parts of the book. In essence, a relationship is two, makes me cry. Two children tugging at each other's sleeve,

shouting in unison, look what happened to me when I was a kid, make it stop and make it better for me. This knocked me over. And to think that, you know, a partnership, which also has so much beauty and joy, also has this in the pain, it's really profound. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Gee, I found that what you read very touching. I don't remember writing that. You did. It's on page 24. What came to mind when you're reading that is a quote from, I think it's Sechariah, that's a quote from the Bible. Look at how I was wounded in the house of those who loved me. The shock of betrayal when you realize that it looked like they loved me

and then they turned against me in some way at some point. could it be that they turned against me when they saw who I really am? And this makes it very scary to be free, free to be who you are in the world and really trust that it's going to be okay. And yes, we are like children who are hoping, sometimes hoping against hope, that somebody will love me. as I always wanted to be loved.

And my parents didn't come through in that way, we might think. And that can also be the truth that they didn't come across in a truly loving way. And we're no longer blaming them, but we are acknowledging that is. It's still affecting us. Sometimes this work requires stepping in to something that feels uncomfortable or unfamiliar, and that can bring up a lot of fear. And there's something that you wrote about, which is, we've heard people being labeled codependent when they cannot leave a pavenful relationship

that has no future. Yet if the relationship reconfirms an original bond with a father or mother, leaving it may possess a terrifying threat to our inner security. then all prospects of change, even for the better, represent a threat. And what struck me about that is that there can be a positive change that feels so disorienting that we can see it as too scary to actually take a step forward. And that just really struck me. How do we, how does someone navigate toward something that is healthier with that memory?

that cellular information in their body that is maybe harder for them to step forward because ultimately if they do want something better for themselves you know they have to move beyond whatever that information may be preventing them from from doing well that's what i was referring to in what my i'm read you know has done half the work like you have realized what work you have to do on yourself, maybe worked on it in therapy, and your integrity does not allow you to go into a relationship when you're not really ready for it. What does ready mean that you will no longer be wanting to use your partner as a substitute for mother or father?

and so the more you do the work, the better equipped you are to be in a relationship that can really work. So when I'm going to my own personal private therapy, which we certainly all need, I'm actually making a contribution to having a healthier relationship. And I think that also, Jonathan, thank you for bringing that up, because that's been some of the most comforting parts of this book and why I don't think that we can highly enough recommend it. I mean, how to be an adult in relationships and also how to be an adult in love. But when I was able to have David, before I even knew that you existed as a human, you were just the author. Now you're this person. But you literally like,

this book walked me through. And I've been in therapy. I've been in wonderful therapy. But this book walked me through every bad decision I ever made in a relationship. And it not only made it make sense, it allowed me to forgive myself and to see that I don't have to do it again. Because you literally, you go through like every single component. If you did not have this component, if you didn't have this A, what it's going to look like is that you will keep seeking it. And in adult relationships, when you're not a child, trying to get it from a parent, you'll get it this way with your partner, you know? You'll be critical.

You'll stay when you shouldn't because you keep thinking it matters more for you to stay than for you to leave, right? And like that's one of the main concepts you have is that when you love yourself enough, meaning when you understand your needs enough and believe that they are worthy, you will no longer find attractive people who cannot fulfill those things for you. Like that's, I mean, I was like, well, that's it. That's the solution. And it's not just like, oh, you have to love yourself. Like, look in the mirror and tell yourself you're beautiful.

Meaning you have to understand where you can't. What's the home you left? You know, without blaming and without hatred to say, this is the mirror I'm holding up. This is what it looks like. And I don't have to take the wounds of my childhood. into an adult relationship when they're coming with their own wounds as well.

You express that much better than I could have. That's what I'm here for. Check out David Rico's books, how to be an adult in relationships, how to be an adult in love. Also, this is amazing. Get 25% off his online course,

how to be an adult in relationships with the code MB25. So grateful that you came and shared with us. think you're absolutely brilliant. I think this book is unbelievably transformative. And we're just so grateful that you came and spoke with us today. Well, I was just so happy that I could be here. And I really enjoyed this. You guys are really fun to be with. Thank you. Such a pleasure to meet you, David. I mean, my favorite part was where he said that he realized that the vow of celibacy was not for him. We're going to talk to his wife. I mean, that's like the next interview I need

to do. Did I make him uncomfortable with how much I love this book? People are going to wonder if you're getting proceeds from the sales. We're not. He's not a sponsor of the show. Here's the thing. There's a lot of books that I like. There's a lot of books that really touch me and move me, but I don't think I have found a book that I am more likely to recommend to people who really would like to, you know, figure out why relationships are not working for them. Here's the thing about a lot of relationship books. There are so many, right?

Like, number one thing in the self-help aisle is relationships and finding love. Right. Men are from Mars, women are from Venus. I did that whole thing. I read all the Dr. Laura books. Right. This book has, like, the most comprehensive bit of everything.

It's practical. It's philosophical. It gets to the past and how the past is impacting the present. But it's very forward-looking. We're becoming just a promo for the book. The reason that I did want to focus on this book in particular, because I really love doing. Like, I'm a person who likes, like, I like projects

or, like, when a book tells you, like, here's what to do and here's a workbook. You love an exercise. I love an exercise. But at the end of every chapter, it's not just, like, write about this, write about that. He has, like, very specific, curated things that you're supposed to do. And not all of them are like, write this down in a book. It's not that kind of thing. It is sometimes things about awareness. Or he will, you know, he'll give you, you know, he'll give you suggestions on how to make a commitment to the five A's, what that looks like in your life.

sometimes he'll give you like affirmations to use that are helpful. He has styles of meditation that he feels tap into different aspects of this. He also like this is, I mean, this is a great section. He talks about the opposites. Okay, let's, we're going to play a game, Jonathan. Here's the game. I'm going to give you one of, I'm going to give you the A and you have to give me the opposite, right? So the five A's, if we remember, are attention, acceptance.

appreciation, affection, and allowing. So, you ready? If I say, like, attentiveness, being attentive, what's the opposite of being attentive? Like, what do you not want someone to be? Being ignored. Very good. That's number one.

You did great. So the opposite of being attentive is ignoring. What else? Like any other example? Dismissal. Good. Refusing to listen. Being unavailable.

is being... Sorry, what was that? Second A, being accepting. So what's the opposite? I mean, opposite is not accepting, which is judgmental, critical. Those actually go with appreciative. So we can skip to appreciative.

So the opposite of being appreciative is being criticizing and judgmental. But the opposite of accepting, he says, is trying to make someone over to be what we, want. Trying to change someone. How many friends do you have who start a relationship? All of them. And they're like, this person has these good qualities. But if I could change these, you know, give me six months. And so the notion, I'll turn them into the partner that I want. That's it. And being in acceptance

means this is who I got. Like, this is the person. So do I want to be with them or do I not want to be with them? No fixer uppers. Trying to make someone over to fit your specific, specific, desires or fantasy. I mean, I know so many people who do this. Being appreciative, the opposite is criticizing or having judgment. What's the opposite and don't be snarky? What's the opposite of being affectionate? Withhold it. So actually, he has being selfishly, or being abusive, you know, being abusive. And that can mean emotional abuse. And that can mean emotional abuse as well. It's a, you know, that's a barrier. And finally, the opposite of allowing controlling, we already used. Very good. We already used. We did it. Oh, I thought we used it.

No, being controlling, demanding, or manipulative. The example that he gave was, this is a hard one. And I actually wanted to, I wanted to like lean in. I mean, I don't know, I need to check what books he's written. He's written 20 books. But the parenting thing is really, really hard because I was actually explaining to my son just yesterday what Rye style of parenting is. Resources for infant educators is what Rye stands for. But Rye is a philosophy of parenting that is, allows the child to explore without you constantly inserting your judgment, observation, or narration on their experience. And Miles, you know, who thinks of me as like, attachment parent, which they're not, they go, they go, they can go.

together. There's different kinds of parenting. And he was surprised. And what I said was the notion is children generally can figure things out, like giving a child the authority to crawl across the floor. And I can hear a lot of, you know, I don't want to say conventional because I feel like the way that I parent is conventional. Like it's the way primates parent. But a lot of like Western parenting is like, well, they're going to put their finger in a socket. And you know, like, oh, you have to. You know, or the. You know, or the. other side of like, let's just see what happens. And the truth is that somewhere in between is what it really means to allow someone and it doesn't change as adults. You have to allow that.

Have you ever been around someone who narrates your experience? They're like, oh, that must have felt like this, but they're like wrong and it's like off a little bit. You know, it's like, oh, you're describing like your day at work. You're like, oh, that must have been devastating for you're like, no, it was just kind of annoying. Like, that mismatch when someone applies their narrative to your life is so, like, it feels so strange because it's like an attempt at closeness, but it's not. And then when parents do that to children, you're basically removing their ability to develop their own narrative.

Like, they might not be really emotionally struck by a situation that the parent observing would be like, oh, they're about to cry. and if you actually hold back a little bit and let the kid have their own emotion and not, you know, you rush in and overpower them immediately, like they could really have their totally different experience. It's manipulation. I mean, that's literally, as adults, that's what it looks like. When you don't allow someone, you know, to do their thing, right?

And it kind of goes hands in hand with not being an acceptance of someone. When you don't allow someone, you are in, you're manipulating. their experience. You know, and I know a lot of people might be listening to this saying, like, they're thinking too much about it. I don't think we are. Like, this is like really what happens.

This is literally what happens as we're just humans, like, trying to figure it out. Or some people are so certain in their own perspective of how they've interpreted what's happened to you. They're like, oh, if you only realized this was so bad, but like you have to let people come to their things in their own regard.

Otherwise, they don't have any agency. Well, and I think that's where I know for me, that's where a lot of my relating to partners can feel like parenting. And I've had, I've had partners say this to me. Like, I'm not, you can't, I'm not a child. And not that I'm treating them like a child, but someone who's tuned into that can see that that kind of let me help you figure it out is actually what parents, you know,

are supposed to be helping children do. And adults have a whole different, you know, course. Here is the spiritual commitment to the five A's. Attention means consciousness of the interconnectedness of all things. Acceptance means saying an unconditional yes to the sobering givens of existence. the facts of life.

Appreciation means an attitude of gratitude. Affection means the love we feel for others and for the universe. Allowing means that we grant to others and protect in ourselves the right to live freely and without outside control. I'm in. Lovely. That was really a treat. Jonathan, thank you so much for reading this book,

being a partner in reading this book with me. and our hope is that if you've listened to this podcast, you will consider exploring David Rico's books, look up how to be an adult in relationships, and also use that coupon. You can get 25% off his online course how to be an adult in relationships if you use the code MB25.

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