Mayim Bialik's Breakdown - Dr. Sarah Schewitz: How Your Childhood Wounds Are Affecting Your Relationships

Episode Date: April 4, 2023

Mayim and Jonathan do therapy with Dr. Sarah Schewitz, licensed psychologist specializing in love & relationships! Dr. Schewitz leads a real time Imago workshop with Mayim and Jonathan to illustrate the benefits of Imago dialogue. She helps them get to the root of their podcast disagreements, from interrupting and correcting each other to cracking jokes at inappropriate moments, learning why they react the way they do. Dr. Schewitz also helps us break down healing attachment trauma, the impact of childhood wounds on relationships, and practical ways to transform communication methods. She explains why couples therapy can put an abused partner at risk and the benefits of individual therapy alongside couples therapy. Dr. Schewitz also gives us her top signs of a healthy relationship and practical tips for getting over a breakup. To learn more about yourself and your relationship, head over to https://coupleslearn.com/quizzes/ Thank you to BetterHelp for sponsoring the show and to Haesue Jo, Licensed Therapist and Head of Clinical Operations at BetterHelp. #ad BialikBreakdown.com YouTube.com/mayimbialik Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Criticism, defensiveness, stonewalling, and contempt. And these four things, if they're constantly coming up in the couple's session, it either means the therapist isn't setting enough boundaries and taking control of the session, which can definitely happen. Or it means the couple just literally cannot regulate themselves no matter what the therapist does to provide structure. So criticism is using words like always or never, or making blanket statements about your partner's personality. Like, you always do this, you never do that, you're so lazy.

Instead, you want to use a soften startup and just kind of focus on the behavior at hand and not overgeneralize into the person's personality. And then defensiveness is basically just throwing up a roadblock. You're either not taking responsibility or saying that's not true, I didn't do that, or you're counterattacking by saying, fine, I did that, but you did it last week. So who are you to say? Okay, so that was criticism, defensiveness.

And the antidote to defensiveness is taking responsibility. And there's literally always something you can take responsibility for. Always. Even if it's, I'm sorry, I hurt your feelings. And don't get into but or explaining your perspective. I'm sorry, I hurt your feelings or I'm sorry you felt that way. No, I'm sorry. That's a big difference.

That's a big difference. A lot of people are like, I'm sorry you got hurt versus taking some ownership in it. Yes. Right, because then whose fault is it? It's their fault for getting hurt. Exactly. That's not taking accountability.

Okay, number three. Stonewalling. And this is shutting down and not giving your partner any indication that you're listening. No verbal or nonverbal signs. It's the silent treatment. And then the fourth one. The fourth one is, I don't want to say it's my favorite. It is the most painful.

and it's contempt. It's the most damaging. Yeah. And it's what you said is like your non-negotiable, that cannot happen, boundary, name-calling, and coming at your partner from a place to superiority. So sometimes it comes out as sarcasm. Like, you would think that the unsaid thing is because you're so stupid. Or literally saying you're so stupid, how could you possibly think that?

Those are contemptuous statements. And sometimes it's just a look. An eye roll or a sneer. It's Miami-Bi Oleg's breakdown. She's going to break it down for you. Because you know she knows a thing or two. And now she's going to break down. It's a break-down.

Hi, I'm My Ambialic. I'm Jonathan Cohen. And welcome to our breakdown. We're doing something we have never, ever, ever done in all the episodes we've been doing this. This is a raw one, folks. I do not know why we did this. Maybe we will never do it again. This is a deep one.

We've never done anything like this. We have an on-camera therapy session that was conducted. We learned amygoth therapy. We have an amago therapist, Dr. Sarah Shevitz. She's a licensed psychologist. She specializes in couples and love and relationships. She actually founded CouplesLearn. You can go to CouplesLearn.com if you want to learn more about couples learn.

She started it before COVID. She started it over 10 years ago. And if people are like, what's Amago? It is a type of dialoguing. It is an exercise, a type of set of phrases that you can say that get to the root of it. It brings it all up. Anyone can use this technique, but it is very specific. And what we have is Dr. Shevitz is going to join us.

And she asked us to prepare an issue, a category of issue that we have. This is a big one. It's a big one. And I'm not going to tell you what it is. you have to listen to find out, but you get to experience after a little bit of an introduction, so you can kind of learn what Dr. Shevitz does, you are going to witness a very raw, like Jonathan literally was like, are we even going to air this, but we are. You get to hear an Amago session where we work on something that you all have heard about, experienced,

witnessed, and possibly had issue with. Exactly, commented on. So, yeah, Dr. Shevitz has been working with couples and individuals for over 15 years. She and her website have been featured on CNN and in the Washington Post and women's health and all sorts of places. She has also plugging this. If you go to coupleslearn.com slash quizzes, you can take quizzes on attachment, what's a healthy relationship, what kind of conflict are you having in your relationship and can it be helped quizzes? Not shocking. I took the attachment quiz just to be like, is it accurate?

it, yes, anxious attachment, you're welcome. It's really, really exciting to welcome to the breakdown, Dr. Shevitz. Break it down. Dr. Shevitz, welcome to the breakdown. Thank you. I get excited when there's like a doctor in the house because I'm like, oh, someone's here. She's going to fix everything. To save me.

That's right. I'm frequently curious how people find their ways, you know, to whatever profession they have. but especially as a psychologist and as someone who, you know, has devoted, I think, over 15 years of your life to sort of talking to people about their problems as the simplest way to put it. But can you tell us a little bit about sort of what drew you to clinical psychology and, yeah, like why you choose to do what you do? Well, I have my before I did the work answer and my after I did the work answer. So the before I did the work is I took psychology 100 in college and thought this sounds. sounds really cool. Let me keep taking some classes and then loved it and continued on to get my doctorate and become a psychologist. All seemed kind of smooth and easy. Now, after doing my own work,

I realized, oh, I grew up in a really high conflict home and was super drawn to figuring out people's problems, including my own. So they didn't necessarily recreate the kind of relationships I grew up with. Do you have siblings? Yeah, I have a brother, a younger brother who is four years younger. Okay. And where did you grow up? Outside of Chicago, northern suburbs.

Okay, I just heard it when you said Chicago. Yeah. Comes out every once in a while. When you studied psychology, was your plan to go into clinical practice? Were you interested in research? Like, how did you sort of pick what your specialization would be? I always knew it was going to be love and relationships and couples. The first class I took was a family interaction class, actually, I think, before the Psych 100. And I just was so drawn to learning about the different dynamics between family members and in romantic relationships, all the dynamics that can come up and how our childhood wounding can play out in romantic relationships. So all of that immediately, it just felt so resonant with me. And I think my soul, was like, you've got to learn this stuff.

That's awesome. And another question I have, and you know, you don't have to get too personal. And I want to be really respectful to the fact that you do see clients. You have a practice. So to a certain extent, Jonathan and I will keep this respectful of, you know, because like I also, I always want to know, like, what was your childhood like? And tell me all the things. But I understand that in this context, we need to, you know, keep a little bit more protection

around that. But I do wonder, and this is just something I'm. I'm curious about as you kind of go about becoming, let's say, a therapist who specializes or a psychologist who specializes in couples things, is it weird to date? Yes. Okay, so tell me about that. Oh, it's hard when you can see the matrix, just to put it simply. Like, I think I'm, well, because of how I grew up, I'm already critical, like more critical

than probably most people. And then you add that this is my area of expertise. and I'm constantly, I can't turn the analysis off. I'm constantly thinking about it and looking at, okay, how is my childhood wounding, playing out with my partner's childhood wounding right now? And, okay, we got to talk about this. And, you know, sometimes it's like, can you just take your therapist head off and have a normal conversation with me?

Like, I can't. This is literally who I am now. And I would imagine that that also comes into play in friendships as well, because, you know, I have a couple friends right now actively doing their training to be therapists. And I kind of feel like there's not a conversation I can have with them where I'm not going to be like, oh, but they know that this is my insecurity or they're going to wonder like, why am I saying let's split dinner? You know, like I, or I went to a party with a friend of mine who's becoming a therapist and I did what I do at parties, which is basically

hold back tears the whole time because I have profound social anxiety. And she literally was like, has no one ever given you a pill for this? Like you don't know. And I was like, I was like, that feels harsh. I thought we were friends. But I know that in her mind, she's been studying people like me. And do you find that in friendships as well? I think friends, from my experience, at least, have really appreciated the insight that I can bring. And kind of, I have one friend that I was friends with from high school. And she noticed a marked shift when I got my doctorate and was like, you really, like, you talk to me like a therapist now and I really like it. So she kind of becomes a problem sometimes where you're like the go-to friend for everyone. And,

I think as a therapist, do you have to learn how to set those boundaries at some point with what's friendship? And even if you could step in and give a psychoanalysis of what's going on, sometimes you can just say, God, that sounds really hard. Do you want to go grab a drink? And also, you should see a therapist about that and I'm not it. So you founded an online psychology practice couples learn. And was that something, you know, a lot of people are doing, obviously a lot of people are doing online therapy. I think COVID really kind of blew the top off of a lot of people's perception about sort of what online therapy is like. What's your sort of feeling? Did you start it around COVID time or was this something that always existed online for you? Yeah, I started it in 2014 and COVID was actually so helpful for my business because it really legitimized online therapy, whereas a lot of therapists kind of looked at it as not as good. And then all of a sudden they said, had to do it and realize, oh, you can still have a conversation via Zoom and feel really connected and give all the same insights and create a lot of the same experience. So it was really helpful for me.

And it was also helpful for me that I had all the systems set up and in place. And it wasn't like most of the therapists of the world were trying to figure out how do we even do this thing. How do we work Zoom? And how do you book appointments online? And, you know, my practice had been set up for years to do all that. That's incredible. So you specialize in couples, obviously, and you also, you specialize in a particular style of therapy. Can you tell us about that? Yeah, I'm certified in Amago therapy. And it's a type of couples therapy that I think it's just like the perfect blend of tactical tools that you can use to improve communication, as well as looking back at childhood wounding and figuring out how is that playing out in my relationship and even in who I attract

as partners. And then it also helps you kind of bring romance back in the relationship and reprocess frustrations and look at your partner more positively. There's just all these great kind of things that it blends together. It was created by Harville Hendricks and his wife, Helen the Kelly Hunt, and they have an amazing book on it, getting the love you want. That's like a great place for consumers to start to learn more, aside from what you're going to learn. My MBialx breakdown is supported by Superpower. We all know the feeling of leaving a doctor's office and kind of feeling like we didn't get anything out of the experience that was useful.

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Not only did Superpower reduce their price to just $199, but for a limited time, our listeners get an additional $20 off with the code break. Head to superpower.com. Use the code break at checkout for $20 off your membership. And after you sign up, they'll ask how you heard about them. Make sure to mention My Ambiotics Breakdown to help support the show. Good day. Before we get more into kind of an amago workshop of sorts. I want to know, are there certain, are there any couples that you think shouldn't try therapy because like just give up already?

Or do you feel like it's something? Sometimes I'll have a friend who's like, oh, my boyfriend and I, whatever, like insert whatever chaos you can. And they're like, but we're going to try couples therapy. And part of me wants to be like, it is so clear that this is not a match. And then I look at my own life where it's like, oh, I've tried couples therapy in situations where it's like, oh, that probably was never going to work. Obviously, you have a business to run and you do well when people come for couples therapy.

But are there situations where you're like, oh, here are the kind of couples that could benefit and here are the kind of couples that probably couldn't benefit? Yeah. I mean, there's real safety issues with doing couples therapy if there's physical abuse the relationship. So it's a really important topic that you bring up, not even just will it work? It's like, will it put the abusive partner at risk? And the answer is usually yes, because they often are not speaking up at home to avoid the abuse. And then you suddenly give them a voice in therapy, and they feel like it's a safe place where they can open up. And then there's retribution afterwards. So anyone who's in a physically abusive relationship should seek individual therapy. And if their

partners open to seeking individual therapy as well. That's where you start. But couples, I always assess for violence in the first consultation that I do, like the free consult and refer out if that's something that's present. And what about couples who you feel like, oh, this is a great candidate? What are those characteristics? Okay. This is kind of a multi-layered question, I think. But if there's a lot of individual work to do and it's one or both partners are really volatile and triggered and just cannot control their triggering, either because they have like PTSD or untreated bipolar disorder or something that's really affecting their emotional regulation or maybe some sort of trauma, untreated trauma.

They can potentially get somewhere in couples therapy, but it's going to be slow and it's going to be less time effective and cost effective than the partners doing individual first and then coming together once they've got some regulating skills. So that's where I think the cutoff is, is how volatile are you and how hard is it to control those emotions when you're triggered and how often are you getting triggered? So the couples who are, you know, having, even having like explosive fights once or twice a week, manageable usually in couples therapy. But, probably needing individual therapy alongside of it. If you're, like, every day having a blowout or something major is happening,

even in the structure of Amago, which is so slow and deliberate, without individual therapy, I don't see a lot of work happening in the couple's sessions, effective work, I should say. I think it's interesting to explain what you mean by you don't see a lot of work happening. I wanted to know what your definition of explosive is, because like the house I grew up in, like, things broke, things went flying. Yeah, that's explosive. For me, I don't like being yelled at, you know, like that, like, meaning my, my level as an adult

is like, I don't, I don't like to be name called. You know, like, I have a hard time tolerating that. Like, you know, slow torture. I'll do that for like, I don't know, 20 years. But no, like, if it, when it comes to, like, people being harsh or name-class, call it. Like, I have a very quick trigger for like, oh, outch, no bad, right? Yeah. Everybody's, everybody's going to have different levels of that. Yeah, but that should definitely not be happening in the therapy room. And I guess what I'm saying

is if that is, if a couple has so much trouble regulating their nervous systems that they can't be respectful, even in the therapeutic space, that's an indicator. We got to do individual work so that you can come here and actually have vulnerable, productive conversations, not just scream and name call. So screaming and name calling. Not okay. Not okay. I'm preparing for our session.

I'm preparing for our session with Dr. Chavez. That means you're not making progress in couples therapy. Not hearing one another, I would say is probably a big blocker. If people have their defenses up, what other signs that couples are not making any progress in therapy? If a lot of defensiveness is coming up over and over again. Like it's your fault or, you know, explaining like. I didn't do that. I did that because you did that. Oh, I know how to do this game.

People might not know what defensiveness is. Okay, so that's a good example. Yeah. So, um, doctors John and Julie Gottman are kind of the leaders in the field of research. I know, Godman. I know Gavin. I do. I know Gavin. I mean, not personally. But yes. Okay. So they have the four horsemen of the Aposomen of the Apais. Tell you about this. Okay, go ahead. What are the four horsemen? Yeah. So they are criticism, defensiveness, stonewalling and contempt. Oh. And these. four things. If they're constantly coming up in the couple's session, it either means the therapist isn't setting enough boundaries and taking control of the session, which can definitely happen.

Or it means the couple just literally cannot regulate themselves no matter what the therapist does to provide structure. So criticism is using words like always or never or making blanket statements about your partner's personality. Like you always do this, you never do that. you're so lazy. Instead, you want to use a soften startup and just kind of focus on the behavior at hand and not overgeneralize into the person's personality. And then defensiveness is basically just throwing up a roadblock. You're either not taking responsibility or saying that's not true. I didn't do that. Or you're counterattacking by saying, fine, I did that, but you did it last week. So who are you to say? Okay. So that was criticism, defense.

And the antidote to defensiveness is taking responsibility. And there's literally always something you can take responsibility for. Always. Even if it's, I'm sorry, I hurt your feelings. And don't get into but or explaining your perspective. I'm sorry, hurt your feelings or I'm sorry you felt that way. No, I'm sorry. That's a big difference.

Yeah. That's a big difference. A lot of people are like, I'm sorry you got hurt versus taking some ownership in it. Yes. Right, because then whose fault is it? It's their fault for getting hurt. Exactly. That's not taking accountability. Okay, number three. Stonewalling. And this is shutting down and not giving your partner any indication that you're listening.

No verbal or nonverbal signs. It's the silent treatment. And then the fourth one. The fourth one is, I don't want to say it's my favorite. It is the most painful and it's contempt. It's the most damaging. Yeah. And it's what you said is like your non, negotiable that cannot happen boundary, name calling, and coming at your partner from a place of superiority. So sometimes it comes out as sarcasm, like you would think that the unsaid thing is because you're so stupid. Or literally saying you're so stupid, how could you possibly think that? Those are contemptuous statements. And sometimes it's just a look, an eye roll or a sneer.

So this is where it gets intense because most people, those are almost automatic or un they don't even know they're doing the eye roll they don't even know it's disdain it's it's utter disdain and and in my defense as a former eye roller it still do it sometimes but it used to be really it used to be really bad for me it was it was like it was my it was what it felt like was my only protest for being hurt meaning it was it was it was a I was not being aggressive in my eye rolling but it was very not not okay. And I've made amends for it formally many times. But for many of us, it is an unconscious, it's an unconscious display of displeasure, but it is completely not okay. So I just

wanted to review. So these are the four horsemen as Gottman identified them. And number one, number one criticism. Number two, defensiveness. Number three, stonewalling. Number four, content. And these are also, I think what Gottman says in, you know, in a lot of his books is like, once you see these kind of all across the board, they are kind of the death throws. Oh, it's very sad. It's painful to think of also a therapist, and this is your job, you know, that you are holding space in many cases for people with children, with, you know, and you have to decide, like, is this going to happen? And when you see these four things, oh, it's very painful. Someone might say, of course I have contempt because this situation is unmanageable or this person doesn't understand or or or. I'm going to suggest something and sort of get your opinion. The notion is that if you're feeling that way, you need self-regulation before dealing with the external factors that are making you feel like that. There's no way to go from that level of agitation to any sort of productive solutioning. Is that accurate?

Yeah. So especially if you're stonewalling, it's usually an indication that you're flooded or emotionally overwhelmed or like in a triggered state. And if that's the case, the recommendation is to take a structured time out where you say, hey, I'm flooded. It means you're in fight, flight, or freeze mode, essentially. And so you say, I'm flooded. I need to take a break from this conversation.

Let's come back to it in X number of minutes. So give a time frame because the partner who wants to keep talking. walking through it is going to feel really anxious. Seven thousand minutes. I'll be back in seven thousand minutes. And on that note, try to make it like between 20 minutes and two hours if you can. And then whoever asked for the timeout, you should be the one to reinitiate the conversation. So it's not seen as an escape mechanism.

It's truly just a let's go get regulated so we can come back and have a productive conversation. Because when you're in that fight or flight mode, your prefrontal cortex are kind of the front part of your brain goes offline. And the more instinctual animal part of your brain that's in the back of your head is running the show. And that part of your brain can't think clearly. It can't make rational decisions. It can't control emotions.

It's literally there to save you from a tiger attacking you. And you don't want to mistake your partner for a tiger and act out like that. I have a question for you, Maim. The answer is no. Stonewalling. That's one check against your bingo card. This is the problem. Now that you've given him these four,

he's going to start naming him every time he sees him. He's going to be like, that was number three. What's the one where she says always? Because that's another one for her. Criticism. There you go. Are you saying I always say always? Look at what we've done.

Uh-oh, now we're in trouble. Okay, go ahead. You mentor people. I do. And you see a lot of people in conflict. Would you say that it is very common in your experience of the stories of lives that you get to witness that people are in this reactive, heightened, defensive state, a good portion of the time.

The reason I ask is I'm trying to baseline sort of a set of normal, that my assumption is that there's so many people that are in this reactive, defensive state, and they just sort of operate that all the time. And then if you're having problems in your relationship, what ends up happening is that that just gets, the frequency gets increased as the stress increases. And then we don't even realize that we're defensive. We're just like, because the threshold is so high, the tolerance, we're overwhelmed. Well, I mean, I think Dr. Chavitz might be able to speak to this, you know, in a more clinically

appropriate way. I don't even think it has to do with the, you know, the situations I've had where I've had opportunities to, you know, like mentor people and things like that. I would say my experience as a human and as a human who, you know, has been in you know, therapy since I'm 16, and I would say really good therapy since, you know, probably my mid-20s. I think most humans in our culture are ill-equipped to handle the emotional significance of our lives because we're not prepared to do so. I think that the number of stressors from our culture, I think the number of, the number of isms that float

around that we don't have support to talk about, contribute to a generally very, very complicated and not really emotionally intelligent, you know, milieu that we all revolve in. I mean, when I look at the way I behaved, I mean, forget about last year or three years ago, when I look at like the first serious relationship I tried to have as an adult, you know, I'm amazed that I even like, I mean, it was like, I'm like, I'm. might as well have been a toddler trying to have a grown-up relationship. Like I- throwing tantrums. Well, I mean, well, yes.

I mean, I happen to be a person who does have experience with violence, meaning I don't hit other humans. But yeah, I break things. I, you know, I was a door slammer. I was an object thrower. I mean, like, literally not even. And that's just overwhelming. Like, that's the expression of being so mass.

No, and I was also, I was a very, you know, I think I was also a loving person. I'm not saying I was a horrible person, but I'm saying even me, like, with therapy, with all these things, with all these tools and the books and the things. Like, I think most of us are not supported in learning the kinds of things that, you know, that we need to function as, like, practical. Also, when I look at relationships that, like, friends of mine have, honestly, even now, like, a lot of relationships are like, why are you so mean to him? I don't think, like, and then why are you so rude to her? Like, why don't even understand how people figure it out, you know? which is a great place to pivot to like, what is the alternative? When we talk about emotional intelligence, when we talk about having this space to slow down,

to hear someone else and not have it be a threat to you, you know, a lot of times when we're defensive, when we're having these reactions, it's because we perceive another person's experience, what they're thinking, what they're feeling, how they're behaving towards us as a huge threat. And so our backs go up and we feel cornered and we react. So the opposite of that is... With amygothotherapy, you would have a very civilized amago dialogue about it. And you would get to the bottom of what's underneath this, which is usually bigger wounding than people are aware of.

Very often it's childhood stuff. There's a quote, I don't know who said it, but if you're hysterical, it's historical. That's a 12-step thing. We say that in 12-step rooms, yeah. Yeah. So if you're having a disproportionately big reaction to something your partner's doing, it's usually because it's hitting on a childhood wound. And the alternative is exploring that for yourself, sharing that with your partner,

doing it vulnerably. And then that often melts a lot of that contempt we were talking about because you can see the wounded child sitting in front of you. and how can you not have compassion for that? I'm going to play devil's advocate because I believe everything you're saying and I just want to bridge the gap to someone out there listening being like, no, that person's just a jerk or this is just happening and I can see clearly that it's that person's fault and if only they stop doing this, then I will feel better.

But if we go back to this notion of if you're hysterical, it's historical. Another thing I say all the time is that, you know, the past is, not in the past. It's actually playing out in the present. So, okay, let's pretend that that's true for the person who's at home saying, no, it's this other person's fault. How do you get to the childhood wound? How do you go from, I'm so pissed, or this person is bothering me or doing something wrong, to what are you telling me? Like, I had a whole childhood. Like, what's coming up now? And I have my own answers, but I'm sort of hoping to lead us through this. more specific examples for people who are trying to put the pieces together.

Do you guys want to do it? I think we should. Even in us, you gave us some homework so that we could in theory, and we hadn't met you, but we were told that if we're going to have one of these sessions, I'm a little nervous, that we should, you know, think of an issue, like a specific, you know, issue and there was, you know, kind of some guidelines we were given. So we have many, many things that we could bring to you. But what I think might be good for you to help us with today, please, is something that comes up a lot is a difference in style in kind of how we approach interviews.

Some of it surrounds my speech patterns, my interrupting the way that I organize thoughts. Your excitement. Okay. Add that to the list. I didn't know that was part of it. And, you know, conversely, I have issues. sometimes with Jonathan either, let's say, making jokes in places that I feel it, like, completely disrupts my rhythm in the course of where we're going, or he sometimes will feel like I'm not going deep enough. And anyway, it's a source of stuff. And I think that's a thing that I'd like to talk about. Okay. Perfect. So one of you's going to be the sender and one of you's going to be

the receiver first. And then... I'm already having a hard time because I have a joke. I'm sorry. Go ahead. Do you see? I saw that change in you and I was like, what do you have to say? I can't hold it in. As soon as I have a joke, it's just bursting to get out. I was going to say, tell her about the time I asked for a second camera. Jonathan will often take things that he has longstanding resentment about that he pretends he's not resentful about and that he says that he's over.

But then he'll say things like that and here we are. No, it's just one of my favorite activities is just to poke a tiny little bit of fun. I actually don't think I need a second camera. She's got your number. But when I asked for one, the reaction was amazing. She almost never spoke to me again. Okay. That could be something, that specific incident could be a representation of this if you want.

I love it. Or we can go with the larger, you know, just different podcasting. Oh, I mean, we could also talk about how we design. You know what? We could talk about how we designed the podcast space. Oh, my gosh, that was intense too. I just want to point out for the record. I don't think this is defensiveness, but do tell me if it is.

That joke that I couldn't hold in. That's not a joke. That's you literally bringing up resentment that you think is a joke. It's not. It's unresolved business. We're laughing. How is that not a joke? Anyway, it helped us go deeper.

Therefore, it was needed. I win. Let's do, let's do the larger kind of, the larger dynamic. I think it would be helpful. and I think we'll probably get to all the goodies. All of them. And podcasting partners everywhere will get benefit from us. Okay, what happens first?

Okay, so one of you will be the sender and one of you will be the receiver. And then depending on how much time we want to spend on it, we'll switch. But it is a slow process. So we may only have one of you send and one of you receive. Let's just see how we can get through it. I'll receive. Let her. Oh, he's already decided.

Okay. That was going to be. My next question is he wants to be what, so that's perfect. I thought maybe we should talk about it and see, but he obviously is going to do it. Okay. I'll tell you each role, and then you guys can decide maybe. So the sender is going to just share their experience of the issue. I'll give you prompts as needed to help deepen the communication.

And the sender, you need to send small chunks of information because the receiver has to be able to repeat it back to you. Oh, my gosh. And so you'll be surprised how little information. we can take in and remember. Okay, well, since I'm the funnier one, I'll receive. Well, you mean set? Because receiving, you're just repeating back what he's saying. Oh, just repeating?

Yeah. And that's actually, thank you for saying that, because you don't want to add your own influence, you don't want to interpret. You really just want your partner to know I'm hearing you. Okay, great. I would like, I'm going to be the sender, and Jonathan is the receiver.

Okay, perfect. it down. So Jonathan, you can pause, Ma'am, anytime you're getting too much information and you're not going to be able to remember it. You don't have to repeat verbatim, but like I said, don't change any meaning. I'm great at this game. Let's go. Okay. All right. So Ma'am, you can start with what triggers me about that is. Why don't you just explain a little bit about the overarching theme, and then we can go from there. Okay, great. So what triggers me is when. Okay. What triggers me is when I think I can take

this specific thing. What triggers me sometimes what triggers me is when I'm in what I perceive as a flow of speaking to a guest or yeah

or even interacting with Jonathan and he interjects a joke or correct the way that I'm speaking in a way that I feel self-conscious. Did I do okay? You did great.

The only thing I would change is you're talking to him, and that's my fault I did not tell you. So you guys are looking at each other and saying you instead of Jonathan. Oh, that's awkward. I don't know that I'm ready to look at him. Okay. That's more intimate to look at him in the face. We're going to hurt to hold the jokes in.

What I heard, Maim, is that when you're speaking, you're in a flow. And that when I interrupt that flow with jokes, no matter how hilarious and appropriate and deep and insightful. I'm feeling assaulted. So you're adding a lot of your own influence here. Oh, okay. Just your perspective. Got it. I'm going to mirror like a champion.

I hear mine that when you're talking and you're in a flow, when I interject a joke, it takes you off course. and then you have a hard time getting back on the course. Is that accurate? Is he supposed to ask if that's accurate? Yeah, I think that was a nice addition. Yes, that's accurate. I also said a second thing. That I forgot because I was making jokes.

The second thing, I can repeat, or should I just stick with that? No, let's go to the second one. Keep going. Well, the nice thing about Amago is you two are really kind of, I'm here as a bumper, you know, like bowling bumpers, but you guys are playing this game. Okay. Go ahead. The second thing is that there are times when I will feel that you've corrected my behavior, like the pace at which I'm speaking, or, you know, even if I interrupt. and that makes me feel self-conscious and sometimes worried about continuing. I'm just going to say for the audience before I mirror that this one's a hard one.

I have a lot to say here, but I'm going to hold that in, and I'm going to go back to mirroring, turning this way. My am I here that when I make a suggestion about or correct how it is that you're speaking or interacting, when I give a note that that makes you feel self-conscious and you have a hard time bouncing back from that note and reentering the flow of our conversations. Yes. And what I interpret that to mean is...

I say this? Yeah, that's for you, Ma'am. What I interpret that to mean... And it doesn't have to be correct, right? It's what I interpret, right? Like my interpretation may be... Yeah. What I interpret that to, oh, I see where you're going. It's making me cry. What I interpret that to mean is that I'm wrong, that I don't have expertise, you know, in a thing that I'm trying to be confident about, or that I can't trust my instincts.

Oh. I hear that you're interpreting getting notes from me as, and you didn't use the word. indictment. So I don't know if you're supposed to at all, and I'm turning back to the doctor here. Stick with my impression. Just stick exactly with what you said. This is very hard for Jonathan. Well, I'm a writer. I like to embellish a little bit. But what I heard was that you feel incompetent. Well, that wasn't the word you used. Well, no, I feel when you do that, I feel incompetent. I don't always feel incompetent.

When I give you notes, you feel unsure of yourself that you can't trust your instincts is what you said, and that you said one other thing that, and I forget, I'll be honest. Yeah, well, yeah, also it's not any note, but this particular category, this particular category. That's what I interpret that as. Okay, my, and what hurts about that is? Oh, my. What hurts about that is you're my podcasting partner. And I want to feel like I can be myself here. In fact, you designed this podcast as a space, you know, for me to get to be myself.

And I really lean into that. I try and lean into that. And it's very hard for me to even feel comfortable. So, yeah, so that hurts. I hear that it is hard for you to be yourself and that this space particularly was designed for the podcast, which is a reflection of who you are. And that it is difficult for you to feel comfortable and confident when you get notes like that. I kind of want to punch him in the face. Is that a normal feeling that happens when you do this therapy? I thought he was really sinking in and I'm like genuinely mirroring you that time.

That was really nice, Jonathan. That was, it was really nice. Yeah. Wouldn't be the line if you want to punch them in the face. No, that's not. And then my, what that reminds me of from my past. Oh, no. I don't like this game at all.

Oh, God. Um, I mean, I don't know if I have like a specific like, you know, because I, I mean, just, you know. Should I answer for her? No. And there is that temptation as the partner because a lot of times we can see the blind spot. But if you think of the feelings of like not being able to be yourself and being corrected. Yeah. You know, to be honest, like I did grow up in a very critical home, but I did feel able to be myself. But what this reminds me of is a lot of my experience when I started acting, meaning when I became part of a public arena, you know, in my early teen years, you know.

That's the answer I was going to give. Yeah, that kind of feeling of, yeah, I was always, I mean, I was a very unusual, you know, unique child, but once I was surrounded by a lot of actor kids, I felt even more different. You know, I grew up in a very diverse kind of environment. where a lot of kids were quirky and a lot of kids were different. And once you get into the Hollywood scene, you're kind of just with like all the, you know, 13 year old pretty girls, you know, of Los Angeles who, you know, so I felt more out of place. That's actually the thing I had never thought about until right now that my uniqueness, which was such an asset in the social arena,

you know, became a real detriment. You know, for my career, it was fine because I sort of, like, made my own space and, you know, got my own TV show, but it didn't, it didn't feel good, you know. And so, you know, not that I think of that actively when we talk, but if I'm following Dr. Shevitz's, you know, prompt, that's where that's where that, that's what that reminds me of. So summarize what you got there, Jonathan. What I hear is that you have felt different and it reminds you. from your childhood of feeling different and that the notes that I might give you bring that

difference up and says, wait a second, you're either not doing something right or you're not fitting in. Or I'm not right. Or you're not right in some way. And that is triggering that memory, even though we might not remember that it is happening. Yeah, that's very accurate. Did I miss anything? No. Okay. And the way I responded to that as a kid was too. It's my turn again. The way I responded to that as a kid was to engage in tremendously harmful self-talk and not share really with anyone what was, you know, kind of going on.

I really don't like them. I'm going to tell my mom not to listen to this episode. Yeah, like that was my solution was to assume everyone was right and I was wrong. meaning just in my existence. And, you know, that's when a lot of my, you know, body dysmorphia started, a lot of my really self-hatred, like a lot of the, you know, issues I had with how I looked. And I did. I looked very different, you know, from children, you know, on television in the 1980s.

Yeah, that's how I reacted. So you reacted with a lot of. of self-hatred, a lot of self-criticism, thinking that you were doing it wrong, and that led to a lot of painful experiences for you, feeling other. Yep. And the way I respond to you when this happens? Oh, my. I kind of thought maybe I'm done here.

Okay. Almost. Then we're going to switch, because I need to have this happen to the other way. Sorry, can you give me that one more time? Yeah, the way I respond when this happens with you. The way I respond when this happens with you is a way that I never got to as a kid. I push back and I feel obstinate, but mostly I start to cry. Like even when you message me to stop interrupting or to be more careful, I just, I start to cry.

It's just like a very immediate kind of response that I have. And then I think, yeah, I think it probably. probably turns into, I think I probably hold, you know, some resentment because I, you know, can't, or don't know how to else to express it. So yeah, it's like that just sort of keeps, you know, it keeps that loop going in my head about, oh, I did it wrong and I fucked up or. I hear that when I give you those notes, you respond to me feeling like you've done it wrong and that it brings up tears for you and that you have an emotional reaction that as a kid you probably weren't allowed to have. And so shoved it down and shoving it down may have, you know, contributed to what

you talked about, about, you know, feelings of body dysmorphia or comparison or feeling other than. And now when it happens, you know, you're able to process it emotionally, but it comes out as tears and still makes you feel like you've done it wrong. Thank you for sharing all that, Ma'am. Thank you. So Jonathan, what you're going to do now is the receiver is summarize the 10,000 foot overview of what Miami am shared with you. So you'll say something like essentially what you're saying is when I interrupt you.

Essentially what you're saying is that when I interrupt you, you feel corrected. You feel that it brings up memories of feeling other than of not knowing that if you can trust yourself, if feeling that your instincts are off, which is, you know, extremely important to be able to trust your instincts as a way to navigate conversations and know when to interject and how to guide what we're doing here, it also makes you feel that you're sort of unstable in a way, meaning that you don't know what the container is. You don't use that word, but you, it's, you well you said you have an emotional reaction and that it's intense for you and that you know a lot of feelings come up around that about doing it right and if you're on the right track

great now you're going to validate her by saying what makes sense about what you've shared is what makes sense about what you shared is is that it's important to be able to trust your instincts and to feel safe and to be in the flow of conversation and not feel interesting corrupted and thrown off and that you need to be holding space to sort of navigate where you want to go and not dealing with a lot of an emotional swelling that can really be a lot to manage. I don't like what he said. Why don't you like what he said? Because what you asked him to sort of validate and what I heard was more, I mean, if I'm just allowed to do this,

that felt more like an analysis as opposed to like what I'd like to hear is like oh that makes sense that if I do that for you meaning given my experience that you would feel that like that's what makes sense when you said make sense that's kind of what I was do you hear the difference yeah it's more of like a realization on my part so it would be like oh right totally understand right that makes sense for me that for you that like based on all of your experience and the fact the fact that you had had that feeling of being an outsider and the fact that you got all those notes growing up and the fact that you had were in the spotlight and had all that pressure. Right. That feels validated. That would make total sense to me that you would feel like that.

That's nice. Thank you. And then you'll empathize with her and say given what you've shared, I imagine you've been feeling and list a few emotions and ask her, is that what you're feeling? Given what you've shared, I would imagine you've been feeling like really nervous that I'm going to give you a note and really nervous that you might do it wrong and that you'd feel really insecure and you wouldn't have the sort of safety sitting down in our chairs the way that I would hope you would. Is that accurate? Yeah. I mean, there's other emotions. Tell them what else I'm also feeling.

Yeah. I mean, those are the things. things that would be like anticipatory, but like in the moment there's... I would also imagine you feel frustrated and angry. Shame. And shame. Shame. Okay.

And then last thing, Jonathan, can you say, what touched me about what you shared is? What touched me about what you shared is the level of active emotion that I felt when you were talking about being a kid. And I just felt this sense of being trapped almost. and it was like exciting and there was opportunity, but that also came, it sounded like to me, and this is an interpretation, so sorry if I'm adding here, but that it came with a lot of pressure and that you didn't know really what to do with that pressure. And that felt and sounded really intense for a young kid to have to process.

That's accurate. Okay. So we can switch if you guys want. Yeah, let's do it. Yeah. Okay. I think it's, there's, sorry, there's so many things that I'm thinking just like about the process. I think a lot of people might listen and be like, that's not that hard.

She's just asking a group of questions. But what it is is you're listening very specifically for like a path that your heart and your brain go on when there's conflict. And even something as small as this, like you got me all the way to a place where I was, like, oh, oh, oh, oh. And that's part of what you facilitate. And, you know, Freud was not the first one to realize this, but kind of the first to articulate it in our kind of cultural, you know, understanding that when you share something in a space, it shifts it. And the, the, the, the, the, the shame you hold, it's somehow when it is released from your mind and in, a space that feels safe, it starts to transmute. And, you know, many people are like, well, I talk to

my friends. I don't want to go to therapy. Like, I know how to do it. But the fact is, like, part of Dr. Shevitz is also, like, her demeanor, the town, like, they are trained. Like, you are trained to learn to hold space in a way that is open, loving, and firm. But you keep us on track. And that's, you know, that's what this kind of facilitates. Anyway, I just wanted to thank you for that and say that it's no small thing what you're doing. Yeah, thank you. And this is a very abbreviated version. Amago sessions are around 90 minutes long. And we pick one topic and go in depth into that topic. Oh, my God. So Jonathan asked Ma'am, are you available to hear my response? Ma'am, are you available to hear my response? Nope. Thanks for watching our show. See you next time.

Tune in next time. Okay. I am. Yes, I am available. But here's the thing. In real life, maybe you're so triggered from everything you just shared that you're like, no, I need 20 minutes to compose myself and then we can come back to this. No, I feel, I feel ready. Yeah, I think in a longer session, like if I were to, you know, kind of go deeper like that, yeah, I might want a potty break. Yeah, so it's good to check in with your partner and ask, are you available? I'm available. Are there cookies? Okay, Jonathan. So you're going to say what triggers me about that is Or what triggers me is when, if that fits better. What triggers me is when there are breaks, well, I don't know how to describe it, actually.

What triggers me is when we're in a conversation and I hear someone in the middle of a soundbite and that soundbite gets interrupted by something that would be great, but just the timing is just a tiny bit. off and it, it, I struggle with it because I know what that is going to mean in the edit. Why don't you explain what a sound bite is for people who don't know? Well, when someone is in the process of explaining something and either a guest or me, and I can talk about for me personally, if I'm kind of in the flow of something, you often know what I'm going to say before I finish saying it, which then you jump in, but that doesn't allow me to finish saying the thing, which I find frustrating.

Because you want to be able to post it on social media? So you're now experiencing how hard it is to just mirror my. Just for you hear. What I hear is that social media is more important than our interaction. Without your own influence. Okay. So what I'm hearing is you get triggered when something that you think is a soundbite that you want to have preserved is interrupted.

by me. Remove the word sound bite. That's literally the second word you used. It is. And I was wrong to use that. I was having trouble articulating it. When someone is in the flow of conversation and they're expressing something and it gets interrupted,

either someone else or me, I struggle with that because for my own self, when I'm getting my rhythm going, I feel like I need a little warm up or I need to like get to the end of something and there may be something else to express that I don't get time to do.

Okay. And when it's someone else, I think it's kind of the same. And I also think about the editing of the show, which makes things choppy. Okay. So I hear that when there's a flow either for you or for someone else, when I interrupt it, it's upsetting to you. Because of the editing and what it will mean after. Because of the editing. And because sometimes I feel like I don't get to get to get to the eye.

idea that I may be trying to articulate. And you sometimes don't get to the end of what you're trying to articulate. And I interpret that to mean... I interpret that to mean that... I know where this is going to go, so I don't want to start it. But I interpret that to mean that what I'm saying is either uninteresting or unimportant. And, yeah, I mean, that's what I interpreted is. So just mirror.

You interpret that to mean that what you're saying is uninteresting or unimportant. And what hurts about that is? What's hurts about that is that I think I overcome feeling like that, meaning that I don't know that what I'm saying is necessarily interesting and important or clear. And so trying to get it out and either leaving it on the afternoon room floor is important. if it's not clear? You know what I mean? Is that clear?

No. It hurts. This dynamic, or what we're talking about, hurts because I'm hearing that you struggle to know if what you are saying is going to be received with clarity or importance. I also struggle because I feel like I know how the edit is going to come together. and if someone's line has jumped on, I know that... I'm more interested in your experience personally and rather than the edit. No, this is my experience because it's me knowing something, how something's going to go,

and not being able to share that with other people, meaning that I foresee a problem in the future and I'm trying to preempt said problem, but don't feel like I'm being heard or understood or that the problem that I see is important. So you added a little piece about that you feel hurt because you are concerned that that information that you're trying to convey also won't be able to be received in a larger scope.

Yes. And then he feels unimportant. And then you feel unimportant. Yeah. And what those feelings remind me of from my past. what those feelings remind me of from my past is being a kid without agency and people thinking, oh, that's nice or sort of getting that like sure kid type thought and that the insight that I would have into how to make things better would be ignored.

So that reminds you of when you were a kid and you were kind of there-thared or assuaged instead of, you know, feeling like maybe people were legitimately interested in what you had to say. Yes. And the way I used to respond to that back then? The way that I used to respond to that back then was trying to communicate. And then if that wasn't successful, I would sort of just retreat. And then I would think, oh, these people don't understand me or I'm not important enough to have that understood by them. they're too busy to understand or they're sort of too, you know, preoccupied to really pay that

attention and that whatever I was seeing or noticing and felt like needed to happen, again, wasn't a priority. So it just felt like not important to them. The way you used to respond to that was to shut down. Oh, I guess I didn't articulate more of like the internal. So for me, I would feel sad. I would feel like dejected and I would, you know, that I would use. to candy to try to comfort myself.

So interestingly, you know, when you were talking about how you would respond, I felt like I didn't have anywhere to put those emotions. I didn't know how to metabolize them. So it felt overwhelming. So the way you reacted was to shut down or to turn to self-soothing and sugar in particular as a way to make those feelings not hurt so much. And the way I respond when this happens with you? I think because we have such an open line of communication, I respond now with you with more annoyance,

like trying to get you to understand saying to you more and more like, hey, come on, this is why in giving you justification. So I think I come at you with arrogance. Sorry. Or maybe over explanation. Over explanation. frustration, sort of continued notes. Badgering.

Badgering. Accurate. The way you respond now is with more annoyance maybe than when you were a kid and what, you know, in all seriousness, you know, kind of persistence

about trying to be heard. Yeah, I mean, at other times I've responded and just sort of been to but then I kind of stew on it because it bothers me. And then if I stew on it and I don't say anything, then I feel like I get a little resentful. So then I do. I come back to you and maybe Badger.

So, Ma'am, now you can summarize what Jonathan has shared with you about this dynamic from his perspective. So it's very important to Jonathan that he feel... And tell him in summary what you're saying. is. In summary, what you're saying is it's very important that you get to express yourself in a way that validates the importance of what you're saying and the continuity of it. And yeah, it brings up feelings of being unimportant or not valued. And there's a lot of painful things, associated with that from your childhood that sometimes it can be hard to manage for you as an adult?

I mean, there was a little judgment on things that are hard for me to manage as an adult. No, no, what I mean is, no, what I mean is it's painful for you in ways that are different from when you were a kid. Like, you express it differently now. Yeah, I mean, if we're mapping the whole childhood is repeating, it's like, oh, I want to, you know, solve that and feel seen and understood and be on the same page about all the things that I see. But of course, people can't all see the same thing. Was it most of what I said accurate? Yeah.

Oh, okay. 95% of the way there. Okay. Okay. So then Myam, go ahead and validate Jonathan by saying what makes sense about what you said is. What makes sense about what you said was if you've had that experience, you know, as a child of, you know, feeling like what you say isn't important or valued. I would imagine it would be very painful to feel like as an autonomous adult,

you are experiencing that again when you've worked so hard on, you know, so many aspects of your life to have, you know, knowledge and competency. And I might add. Yeah. And I can imagine that when you do have a good idea and I don't listen, That's really hurtful given your childhood experience. And I would imagine when you have a good idea and it gets interrupted or it gets interrupted in a way that might feel like I don't value it or don't find that it's important, that that would be very, very painful, given your childhood experience of that. And then, Maam, you can say, given what you've shared, I imagine you're feeling or maybe in those moments, I imagine you feel.

Given what you shared, I imagine those moments you're feeling like you need to protect yourself and defend yourself. And I would imagine you also feel misunderstood. And yeah, and like you have something to prove or that you have to even overproof, you know, like you have to go double down on that. Yeah, I would imagine that's what that feels like. Ask him, is that accurate? Is that accurate? It's pretty good. Thanks.

And then you're going to share what touched me about what you shared us. What touched me about what you shared is, I think of you as such an accomplished, intelligent person that it really moved me to hear that some of those, you know, wounds would get kicked up, you know, by our interactions. Okay. Great job with your first dialogue, you two. I feel like I need a nap. It's a little nauseating. So wait, it is a little nauseating. Yeah, I feel a little nauseous.

How long do you work with people on average? Like, is this kind of like, I mean, like, I've been in psychoanalysis since I'm, you know, quite young, which is just like, you're just like in it forever. Is this, do you do kind of like, hey, in six weeks, we can cover topics? Or is it like psychoanalysis where you just kind of like, see how long it takes to do things? things. So just in general, couples therapy is usually shorter term than individual therapy. It's kind of get you the tools that you need and process what needs to be processed and then hopefully you can start doing this on your own at home. I think on average it's probably like 12 to 20 sessions. That's a pretty big range. But then I have clients who, you know, just want to learn this tool and

get out or unfortunately we'll break up. You know, So there's much shorter times. And then there's the ones who want this weekly space or every other week space to just have the guidance and know that they're going to put the time in into their relationship. So it varies a ton, but I'd say it's shorter term than individual usually. And this is, this only works with couples, obviously, because you're taking, you're taking an interaction, right? But couples, but they don't have to be any. They don't have to be romantically involved. They can be friends.

They can be cousins. Just any two people in dialogue. Exactly. Yeah. You can dialogue with your kids. You can dialogue with your parents, your friends, anyone. That's very interesting. But I'm curious if anything did change when you guys heard what the other said about what is triggering from their past.

Okay. So I'll be honest. It was very helpful. And that was a really, that's a great tool. What you just facilitated feels like a great tool. I think that the part where I kind of feel like there's more work to do, and again, this was a very, this was a miniature session. The place where I feel like there's more work to do is understanding is kind of part of the dynamic. The next part is sort of like, what does it look like to put that into action?

because, you know, what we're talking about, I feel like what I was talking about with Jonathan was more, you know, more of a style difference, whereas a lot of what, you know, I felt like Jonathan was sort of getting triggered by, by me is a lot of, just like my speech pattern, which takes a lot longer for me to fix. And it could be that Jonathan, you know, making jokes when things, get emotionally intense is, you know, something as natural to him as interrupting, you know, is to me.

There's a gender dynamic for me of also like kind of being told what to do by the man of the two of us. Like, so there's a lot of other layers. And I'm assuming that's what you need more time and space to get into. Yeah. And you might dialogue about the same topic several times before you get to all the layers. Wow. And even then, yeah, it's like, what do you do about it? So once you get to the feelings underneath, so for Jonathan feeling unimportant, we would do what's called a behavior change request where we figure out what are some behaviors Miam can do to help you feel more important. And maybe they're not even related to the dynamic you discussed. Maybe there's something different.

Like when I propose something about how we post on social media, you immediately say, thank you. you for sending an idea or, you know, I'm just throwing random stuff out there, but you come up with concrete ideas that will help address the underlying feeling that we uncover in those in those dialogues. I'll just add one piece. Yeah, yeah. Which is that in this dialogue, you're processing emotion, asking yourself these questions of why right now is linked to something in the past and how did that impact and how did I respond in the past and how am I responding to you now? That has a visceral experience. Like, you're moving emotions that are stuck in your body and those things you are activating in real time and projecting those onto the present. So even just going into this work,

forget about how is it going to change? Like, nothing is ever going to change without digging into it. And so I would say that this is such an interesting forum and way to dig into it. And also I think, you know, I'm sure you work with a lot of different kinds of people. Jonathan and I are both very like somatically dialed in humans. Like, you know, we're very, we're over aware of body sensations and things that move and shift. So, you know, what I know is for most of my life, you know, before I kind of knew about somatic reactions, like my stomach hurt or, you know, I would like, feel gross or I would feel nauseous or, you know, like things that I didn't even know, whereas like now Jonathan has actually kind of taught me like, oh, when you feel like you're shaking

inside, like all of a sudden, it's probably because something's coming up, you know, or when you feel nauseated from talking about something, it's like that's a indication that like there's something there. So I think that's also really interesting. And with more time, you can say to a therapist, like, hey, I'm feeling like, you know, physically, like I'm starting to sweat or I'm feeling, And those are important kind of thing, guideposts for a therapist. They are. And people may think, oh, we were just talking. But like each one of us, I don't know about you.

But like it feels like I went through the ringer just in answering those small questions, which to me means that you're onto something powerful. It's deep work. It's really deep. Maim, let's do a few top fives before we have to get out of here. Okay. Top five signs of a healthy relationship. Oh, I like that.

Top five signs of a healthy relationship communication that does not. involves defensiveness, stonewalling, criticism or contempt, an ability to really talk through your issues without getting to this gridlocked fight, a relationship that involves physical touch and connection in some way, shape, or form, whatever feels good for you, a relationship where you feel safe to express yourself and be yourself. And how about a relationship where you're not afraid to bring up your concerns. You know they'll be heard. Amazing. Oh, wait, I want this one. Five tips for getting over a breakup. Gosh. I can give you my five. Lots of sugar. Drugs and alcohol. No. Endless Netflix. No, but seriously, what would you say are five

tips for getting over a breakup? Well, I'd say, you know, you were joking like sugar, but something that makes you feel good, you know, not unhealthy, but something that makes reconnect with what you love and what you connect, how you connect to yourself, especially in a relationship, sometimes we can lose ourselves or become so intertwined with our partner's life that it can take a minute to get back to yourself and what you really like and what you connect with. So figure out what brings you joy and do lots of it. Connect with other people. you're used to having that person that you text and call and talk to about your day and go home to. So as much as you can connect with other people while you're getting over that initial breakup,

that can really help fill the void of connection you're used to having. Give yourself time. Don't expect yourself to heal on a specific timeline. Everyone's different. Everyone heals differently. Physical exercise. Like moving your, I was going to say, physical exercise, does that make a top five, like as a breakup?

Sure. Yeah. Well, because it helps kind of move some of that stuck energy and emotion through your body. So absolutely, it can be helpful. I also want people to understand that what Dr. Shevitz did was an exploratory kind of mini session for us. This is not reflective of all therapists who would do an Amago session like this. This is something that you did for us. And I think it was really, really interesting.

and we really appreciate you doing this session with us. And also I really felt, even though this is kind of an online experience, I actually was surprised how part of it felt. You know, sometimes when you do therapy online, it's a lot of kind of like talking and you're looking at them listening. But this really felt like especially because we were the ones interacting, it felt really comfortable and it also felt like you were here. But it was a really nice space you created.

So thank you so much. Well, thank you. for going there with me. I do think a lot of our podcasts are about people talking about experience and tips and tools, but we never say, like, look, you can really change. And what I know to be true is that as you shift out of this defensiveness, if you shift out of having to protect your position and you open up with more vulnerability, that lowering of your defensiveness allows there to be space for both people. And that creates something magical and how you come together and what the process is after that is, you know, unique for everyone. But these sets of questions give a starting point

to start to listen and have the other person share their experience and have you hear it. And I think that is a life-changing experience. Absolutely. Thank you so much. We really, really appreciate it. My pleasure. Thank you, too. I mean, if I had to list the difficult interactions I have with humans, we would literally be here all day. My life is a series of difficult interactions with people. But what this shows is that under every difficult interaction with everyone that you have, this is what's happening. What's happening is this reminds me of,

and that made me feel like that. So now I feel like this, but as an adult, this is how I'm going to react. Like, it's, it's that, that's happening all the time. How is it different to listen versus share? Well, when you're listening, you have to like literally, and this is why I think if this was our first time, like in therapy or our first time doing this, it would not have gone like that.

Because people get defensive. Oh, my God. You shouldn't feel like that. That doesn't make any sense. Every fifth word I wanted to correct you. But it's the regulation that I've learned, you know, from therapy that makes me say like, this is not the time. I'm supposed to be listening. But when you first start in therapy,

it will bubble up so bad and you will feel rage. Like that's, that is also an instinct of mind to rage at you. Like, are you kidding me? Like, it is very strong, but with, you would have failed therapy. I would have failed therapy. No, but I think that's important for people to realize also is like, you know, we're, we're not experts by any means. But you and I have, had practice in this kind of arena learning like, okay, there will come a time for me to shove this in your face and it's not now. That's the intense part is knowing that you have all these things to say and it's okay. You can let those go and just actually listen, which I think is really showing up for someone else in a truly authentic way is to like shut the hell up. Well, and I also had to

and just listen. Sorry. I also had to hold that you are having an experience, but I had to really, seriously, I had to hold that you're having an experience that I also may not agree with. It may bump up against things. I may not think it's justified, but what this style of work says is like, it doesn't matter if you don't think it's justified.

It's true for that person and for the child in them that is still hurt. Hugely important, hugely important. That's a mic drop moment. Also, to talk about it. I think I didn't interrupt myself or you wouldn't have the sound bite. See, she's starting to figure it out. What would you have said for me?

Because you have a running narrative of what I should be saying all the time. No, I mean, I think you did a really beautiful job. I will also say that you're not always wrong. I think I'm actually usually right about what you're thinking, really. And also like to share in that way, especially knowing were being recorded, like, so uncomfortable, so much like, how is that going to be perceived? Like, I wasn't paying, I didn't know that this was going to happen when I sat down today. Well, there's the ad for the episode. Really beautiful work, beautiful work.

Break it down. We're introducing a new segment sponsored by BetterHelp. Today we're joined by Hesu Joe, licensed therapist, and head of clinical operations at BetterHelp. And we're going to be chatting about her top tip surrounding mental health and therapy. Let me tell you a little bit about Hesu. She's a licensed marriage and family therapist. Her clinical focus and interest is in Asian American mental wellness, anxiety and stress management, relationship and family dynamics, trauma relief, and gender identity-related challenges. She's the current head of clinical operations at BetterHelp, which is the world's largest online therapy service, where she empowers other therapists in being successful at bringing their skills online. She actually studied at my alma mater

UCLA, which is very exciting and got her master's degree from Santa Clara University. And we are very excited to get to talk to you. So welcome to our breakdown. Thank you so much for having me. Jonathan, why don't you get us started? We have some questions for you. And I'm sure you're asked these things a lot, but we appreciate you bringing a fresh perspective to people who may not have heard you talk about them before? We get asked a lot. What are the top things that someone who's going into therapy can learn from going to therapy? When I hear top things, I'm thinking of what are the things that universally people can learn by going to therapy?

And I think hopefully the obvious one is grounding skills, is the ability to self-souve when you yourself become very heightened emotionally. And it could be like performance anxiety related. You're about to give a speech or you're about to give some kind of presentation. You're about to do some kind of interview or, you know, you might be in crisis. So it could be something smaller in life like a school thing or it can be something bigger in life like a disaster. But the ability to just calm yourself down and, you know, get to a place where you're not freaking out anymore. I think this is a great skill to learn. therapy. Attachment theory. So I think a lot of folks have already kind of heard about this at this

point, but attachment theory looks at how you have essentially kind of learned how to receive and give love from your early caregivers. And this very much manifests in the way that we connect with adults in our later relationships. So learning about this stuff and just kind of figuring yourself out and how you related to other people, how that might be leading to now, maybe like dysfunction now. That is definitely something to learn in therapy. And, you know, trauma, things about trauma. Like, what is trauma? How does my body kind of absorb trauma? And what are the symptoms that people might experience after going through something terrible, tragic, dangerous, scary? Because once you start learning about this stuff, then you can think about it differently and start addressing it

and how it's getting in the way of you living life. And another great skill is just the ability to challenge your own thoughts, to be able to look at what you're thinking and think about it versus just acting on it right away. So that is grounding, which is also self-soothing, also emotional regulation, how we attach, which is give and receive love, trauma, which is a big topic. We've covered a lot on the pod, how it might be impacting someone. so we may not even realize how it's impacting us.

So learning how to unpack that and see the effects and then also challenging one's own thinking, which is actually related to all three of the above because if you can't do the three of the above, it's going to be very hard to have some perspective on your thinking. And also I just want to point out that, you know, those categories of things can be approached from a lot of different styles of therapy

because a lot of people hear like therapy and it's like, oh, I don't talk about my mom. you know, like that classic notion of like critical psychoanalysis where you have to like bring up everything. You know, for some people, there are kinds of therapy that will suit them better, which will address these kind of things through different modalities. And you, obviously, you have a lot of different experience working with a lot of different populations. But for example, you've worked with kids. Kids don't necessarily know how to kind of like go deep. But what they know is sort of behavioral modification and things like that.

Can you talk a little bit about different kinds of therapy? Yeah, I'm glad you brought up kids. I actually love working with kids. And when we process or when we start exploring ourselves, looking into memories, all that kind of stuff, we use our primary language for us at this table is English. When you look at a child who's still absorbing language, their primary language is actually play. So, you know, when you're working with a kid as a therapist, you've got to get ready to get down on the floor with them, bring out some of the toys, bring out something that's engaging. and work that way. So you're probably not going to have them sit down on a couch and, you know, talk about their mom.

They can do that in 20 years when they come back. Well, hopefully you'll have done a good enough job that maybe they have to come back less. Yeah, yeah. But in terms of modalities, yes, there are certain ones that very much focus on integrating your past and your relationship with your mom or whoever raised you. Which could impact your attachment style if we're going to one of our top tips. Maybe there's trauma in there? Yeah.

And if that's something that's important to you in terms of diving into your past, talking a lot about your childhood, connecting the things that you experience as a kid to what you're experiencing now, then you want to look for a therapist that specializes in, you know, you mentioned psychoanalytics, but, you know, they might describe themselves as being experts in psychodynamic work, object relations, emotionally focused therapy. But if what you're really interested in is symptom relief and figuring out how to feel better right now and you don't necessarily want to go deep into your relationship with your parents or things like that. You want to look for somebody that's doing brief, solution-focused, goals-oriented type of work. Like cognitive behavioral therapy. Yeah, yeah, I was going to mention. Even dialectical behavior, right? Yeah.

So DBT, CBT, well, DBT comes from CBT. And it's this idea of learning how to make the. connection between your thoughts, feelings, and behaviors. And then being able to go back to challenge your own thoughts, stop yourself from thinking certain things, reminding yourself, you don't have to believe in everything that you think. And it's really about, you know, skills building. You want to figure out how to calm down when you're freaking out. Look for somebody that's going to help you build skills.

And for some people, part of being able to calm down means addressing their past. And I would hope and think that most therapists out there are prepared to go in any direction that you want to. They may have a focus. They may have a modality that they prefer to practice from. So early on, if you're looking for a therapist, you want to ask these questions, too, to see if they're a good fit for you. And then it can also be that you're working with a therapist for several months. And then you both figure out or one of you figures out, this is good. We're in a good place.

And now I'm looking for a different perspective. It's okay to do that, too, and find a number. other kind of therapist. A lot of times when people talk about therapy, they say it didn't work or they didn't like it. And while it is very true that that might be true for them, what I have found in many cases is that people simply don't like their therapist or don't feel like it's a good match. And I think people feel like, oh, I'm sent to this person. And if it doesn't work, it's not going to work. In many cases, there can literally be a mismatch. in personality. So what are some of the things to look for? What are you, what do you want to feel

to know that you're safe when you walk into a therapist office? You actually said the first thing I was going to say is like you want to feel safe. Like that's a gut thing that you want to see. If you don't feel safe, that is the red flag. So the green flag is feeling safe. And what does it mean to feel safe? You know, you feel regulated. You feel balanced. You don't feel like you need to run away from this person or hide. And what if you feel like that all of the time with everyone you interact with? That's a fair question. If you feel like that all the time.

You need to go to some therapist. Yeah, then maybe the green flag isn't necessarily about like feeling safe right when you meet them, but do you even feel like there's hope in feeling safe with this person? To develop because it takes time. Yeah. One session is not a good marker. Correct. One session is not a good marker.

One therapist is not a good marker. while you're describing them, I'm thinking, like, I know people like this. I imagine a lot of people know people like this. They went on one date with one person, didn't go well, and they're like, I'm never getting married. I hate all men. You know, I'm never going to do it again. And that's kind of like the painting you're putting in front of me. We wouldn't necessarily do that if we're looking for love.

So I would hope that people continue to keep trying if their first therapist isn't necessarily the right match for them. You are two people, and yes, this person's a professional that you're hiring. and paying to provide a service to you. Also known as friendship. And you're also expected to, you know, bear your soul to this person. So you probably want to make sure you're finding someone you feel safe with. So I think that's a green flag. Other green flags, this person is promoting safety within session with you, but also outside in your life.

the green flag is a therapist that meets you where you are. You hear this all the time, not necessarily like bringing in the hammer with any one kind of suggestion about how your behavior should change today or else I won't see you. And I think another green flag is if this, if this person right from the very beginning is going over what's called informed consent and they're reviewing the limits of confidentiality with you. You know, therapists are licensed professionals that are overseen and monitored by governing entities. And this all exists to keep the public safe because there's a lot of potential for therapists to abuse their clients because of, you know, the power differential that forms. Therapists end up knowing so much about you and they

could do something with that without these guiding principles, the codes of ethics. So for somebody to begin therapy with you and not review what's called the limits of confidentiality, that is a red flag. They're skipping something really important. So the green flag is, are they going over all this housekeeping stuff that you might find a little bit boring to begin with? So many forms. Right. A lot of forms. Like, did they give you their notice of privacy practice? Like all this stuff that were often, all the blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, it's actually really important. It's there for a very specific reason. And another green flag is that they're very equipped to answer all your questions. Doing the blah, blah, blah, you're going to have a lot of questions because some of this stuff is in legalese. It's not super straightforward all the time because sometimes it's drafted up by somebody's attorney. So if you don't understand something, ask questions.

And if you don't feel comfortable asking, that's an indication that this might not be an ideal safe match yet. Meaning it might take more time or it could just not be a match. Because as you said, it's just, it's two people. Yeah, it's two people. If you don't feel comfortable asking, it could be that there's something going on between you and this person. But maybe that's part of who you are too. And you have a difficult time asking a question, which could feel like challenging this other person sometimes. So that might be a sign.

It's not a good match, but it might also be a sign that this is something you need to work on. Jonathan, I'm going to turn this question on you. Tell us an experience you've had with a therapist where it just like wasn't a good match. I think I had a therapist at one point that was just extremely narrow in terms of like expectation. Like if anything fell outside of sort of a very traditional norm set, you know, wasn't very spiritual. wasn't looking to sort of understand a lot of emotional range. It was like very logical and linear. And that sort of didn't work for me because I operated in a sense of I wanted to have a large sense of feeling called to something or like having meaning towards it.

And when I wasn't able to communicate that. So we were speaking different languages. You talked about modalities. There's a ton of different kinds of therapy. Research does indicate it doesn't actually matter what kind of modality is being used. the relationship is the most important feature. But Adlerian therapy very much focuses on identifying people's personal values and helping them live more authentically to what's happening on the inside.

A lot of our dissonance comes from our inside stuff, not matching our outward presentation to the world. And I think all kinds of therapy is aiming to integrate that stuff so that you can show up in the ways that feel good for you, help you feel confident, help you feel good about. you know, what's coming out of your mouth. So to summarize, we have the top green flags when looking for a therapist is a sense of safety or the ability to potentially develop that with someone if you already

don't feel safe. The therapist meeting you where you're at and not giving you very hard do this or I won't see you type of ultimatums unless that's what you want and that's what you need. But if not, then they're meeting where you're at. Offering informed consent to give you a better picture of what's involved in therapy and able to answer your questions. as you get going. You talked about one of the things that you can learn in therapy is kind of how to calm yourself down when you're freaking out. And it's interesting because, you know, there's so many ways that, like,

I can clinically describe what a freak out looks like. But, like, everybody knows. Oh, we have it on tape. But I think most people can really identify with that. So what are, like, if you had to say, like, let's say you're freaking out about something. And, you know, let's make it something that feels significant, like something with a relationship or, you know, not just like, oh my God, my nail broke, which can make some people freak out, which is fine.

It's freak out worthy. But let's say you're having a lot of big feelings, you know, about an interaction or anticipating an interaction or something like that. What would you say, if you had to tell me what are three ways to calm down my nervous system when I'm legit freaking out? What would those three things be? Before I answer that question, now we're talking about freaking out, like what is how? happening when we're freaking out. There's physiological things happening in our body. And it's related to anxiety. So anxiety is something we talk about all the time and mental health. And it's the

manifestation of how your body responds to perceived danger. Right. Like, and some folks will say that anxiety is an evolved thing. And we, we carry it around to help us survive. Anxiety is associated with the prefrontal cortex of our adult brains. And this is the area that's illuminated when we're doing things like planning ahead, putting ourselves in other people's shoes and having, you know, this ability to kind of like put ourselves outside of us in another situation and imagine. So anxiety does all these things to signal to our body that something's going to happen and we need to protect ourselves. So, you know, when we're freaking out, your heart rate starts increasing. You don't always think about it physiologically. Right, right. You have this

feeling of like, oh my God, or like, I got to get out of here. Or for many people, like, I need to smoke or I need to drink or I need to eat. But that's an indication that the nervous system is actually sending out all, right, it's activated. Yeah, something's activated. There's a message sent to your brain that something bad is going to happen. Danger is ahead. So your heart's still beating faster because your heart is trying to pump oxygen into your big muscle group so that you can prepare to run away or fight off a bear or something like that. That's where your hands and your feet get really, really cold because your body's not concentrating on getting blood into your extremities. You don't really need to have fine motor skills to run away. I should see how I run.

And you get sweaty. You know, why do we get sweaty? It's because our body's like preemptively regulating temperature in the event that we need to exert a lot of energy. you have gastrointestinal discomfort. Sometimes you've got the bubble gut and need to go to the restroom because of anxiety. That's your body kind of cleaning out to become more aerodynamic in the event you need to run away. That's what I'm going to say when every time I need to use the restroom and go number two. I need to become more aerodynamic.

I'll be back. Sorry. That works also. So this is all happening because our body is trying to protect itself, get ready to do something because something is going to happen. So now, how do you get your body to cooperate with you? Your brain knows, okay, nobody's about to attack me right now. Your brain knows, I think I'm relatively safe because I'm just in this mall. Like, wherever you are that you're about to have this panic.

So these are the things you can do in a moment to help calm yourself down. And the first one is very obvious. And all of us are doing this all the time anyway, but sometimes we're not thinking about it very much, is to breathe. And to breathe correctly. Yes, yes. When we're panicking, we tend to hyperventilate. And if you don't know what that sounds like, and we do this, these short, shallow breaths in an attempt to get more air, an attempt to get more oxygen.

But if you pay attention and start being mindful about your breathing, that's when breathing becomes manual is when you start thinking about it. So then, you know, count in for four counts through your nose. And when you're exhaling out through your mouth. And it's helpful to imagine you're breathing out. out through a straw. So like it's coming out a bit more slowly. Four, six, four, like this.

The box breathing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. As long as your exhale is longer than your inhale, this will get you to control your breathing and starts signaling to your body. You're calm now. If you're breathing calm, then that means danger must be away, right? But you're actually manually kind of putting this on yourself. And other things that you may learn.

therapy are various relaxation techniques. Some people call these grounding skills, which I kind of talked about in the beginning. If you're diving into something called mindfulness, it's definitely a tenet of that, is just the ability to bring your attention to your body. So very related to breath. But there's a variety of exercises, like progressive muscle relaxation. Yeah. I like that. Another thing, which sometimes makes sense, depending on where you you are who you're around, but is to just shake it out. Like, get some wiggles out. You know, we carry a lot of tension and a lot of stress in our bodies. And sometimes we don't even realize that our shoulders are hiked up to our ears or that we're hunching over because we're trying to make ourselves

smaller and not take up a lot of space and doing all this stuff. And, you know, like, compressing your body is not really conducive to feeling confident and to feeling calm. So really just bringing some attention. As I'm saying, I'm starting to sit up taller and, like, open up my chest because, you know, body communicates something to our mind. So that's another thing you can do is like learn how to do these skills. Not just in a crisis, but all the time, my, she started to notice that she was going to sleep with like her shoulders crunched up and her all of her body tense. It's like a protective fetal position. And she started to realize, wait a second, I should do a progressive muscle realization exercise before I go to sleep and starting to started to like just bring everything

down. So I think a lot of people are carrying this nervous tension in their system. almost all the time, and they begin to notice it and start to relax it, but then that skill can then be applied in moments of crisis as well. We'd like to thank you, Hesu Joe, licensed therapist, and head of clinical operations at BetterHelp, and thank you to our partners at BetterHelp for sponsoring this segment. Visit betterhelp.com slash break to learn more. That's better, HELP.com slash break. Hesu Joe's input is general psychological information based on research and clinical experience.

It's intended to be general and informational in nature. It does not represent or indicate an established clinical or professional relationship with those inquiring for guidance. Also, just because you might hear something on the show that sounds similar to what you're experiencing, beware of self-diagnosis. Diagnosis is not required to find relief, and you'll want to find a qualified professional to assess and explore diagnoses if that's important to you. If you were a loved one are in crisis and uncertain of whether you can maintain safety, reach out for support. Crisis hotlines, local authorities, have a safety plan. That can be done with a therapist too. You know what I heard? You did a great job today. So did you. From our breakdown to the one we hope you never have. Cut me off. We'll see you next time.

It's My and Beallix Breakdown. She's going to break it down for you. She's got a neuroscience PhD or two. One fiction. And now she's going to break.