Mayim Bialik's Breakdown - Ed Robertson: Don’t Let Revenge Breed Resentment

Episode Date: November 28, 2023

Ed Robertson (Barenaked Ladies) breaks down his songwriting process for The Big Bang Theory and our very own MBB podcast theme songs! He opens up about his musical influences, his struggles with insecurities and imposter syndrome, and the shocking, fascinating story of how he came up with the TBBT theme. Ed reflects on growing up with an alcoholic father and how he learned to navigate their relationship. He explains why his career as a pilot means so much to him and details his frightening plane crash and the intense personal struggles it brought up for him. Ed also discusses what it has been like to avoid substance use and stay committed to his marriage in the midst of a rock-and-roll landscape, plus Jonathan schools Mayim on Canadian cowboy culture! Barenaked Ladies' New Album, In Flight: https://bnl.lnk.to/In_Flight BialikBreakdown.com YouTube.com/mayimbialik Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

So when I got asked to write the theme song for the Big Bang Theory, it was on the heels of five or six massive disappointments in a row. They were really nice on the phone call, but I just never got around to writing the song. So I'm just going to call them and tell them, hey, thank you so much for thinking of me, but I just haven't had time to do this. And I was going to suggest a few people that I thought would be really good. and I said to my wife, I got this phone call. She said, who's it with? And I said, Chuck Lour. And she said, do you mean Chuck Lorry?

I said, I don't know, I guess so. And she said, you should Google him. And so it was like less than 20 minutes to the phone call. I got in the shower. The whole song came to me in the shower. I called my wife in and said, can you please write this down before I forget it? She wrote down all the lyrics for me. I got out of the shower, threw on a bathing suit,

and I recorded the Big Bang Theory into the built-in microphone in my laptop. I didn't even use any external gear. I used garage band and the built-in microphone. And I sent it five minutes before the conference call. Chuck and Bill got on and said, you know at the end where you tagged the line, you go, it all started with a big bang, bang, it all started with a big bang. And I go, yeah, he goes, can we lose the tag and just do the line once?

And I go, yeah? He goes, great, we love it. Biggest thing in my entire career is it's eclipsed everything else I've ever done. The most special thing about how you created that theme song was that Bear Naked Ladies is the kind of music that the characters on the Big Bang theory listen to. You know, it's like meta upon meta. So the reason that we would go to Comic-Con, the reason that we would fill that big convention hall is because we were a show about the people who go to Comic-Con.

We were a show about the people who are the bare naked ladies in terms of the geek rock, the nerd rock aspect. And you guys are the guys that made it big. It's my and biologs breakdown. She's gonna break it down for you. Because you know she knows a thing or two. Hi, I'm Myam Bealek. And I'm Jonathan Cohen.

It's Myr and Beallick's Breakdown. We're going to break it down for you. We know a thing or two. We have the songwriter for the catchiest podcast jingle, maybe in history. I know it was stuck in my head for many, many months. We're going to be talking to a lead singer and founder of Bear Naked Ladies, Ed Robertson. You may also know him, not just from, there are a million hits like one week and pinch me and if I had a million dollars.

But Ed also wrote and sings the theme song to the Big Bang Theory. So he's been a part of my life for an incredibly long amount of time. And it was on a wing in a prayer that we approached Ed, our fellow Canadian, to write the theme song to our podcast. And he did. But I have to say, nothing means more to me. than this episode in terms of the time that he gives us to share so much of his childhood, his career, his Canadianness, and his incredible process as a human being.

Also, the level of depth and introspection he has and emotional awareness that he's gained from feeling less than and having issues with his dad to a pretty unbelievable plane crash that he survived, and he goes into more detail in it here than maybe ever before. Bare Naked Ladies has a new album out in flight. We're also going to talk about how he writes, why he writes, and what is it about his voice that is so iconic. It's rare that you speak to a musician and they talk the way they sing, but I can hear his singing voice in his speaking voice in a way that I don't know another

musician that I can say that about. He's so intelligent, he's so articulate, and he goes really deep with us, and it's such a pleasure to have the man who sings about us breaking it down for you, break it down for you. So it is our pleasure to welcome Ed Robertson to the breakdown. Break it down. Hey, Ed. How are you? The always handsome Jonathan has joined us. You know, Vanity Fair, Vanity Fair referred to him as hunky.

I would have been more loquacious, but hunky is certainly fitting. But it was qualified. They did say hunky Canadian, so like in America, maybe that's like, it's downgraded. The first time we played a big festival in the UK was the Glastonbury Festival. And we got out of a van having driven overnight after an overnight flight. and a lovely young woman ran up to us excitedly with a clipboard and said, oh my God, bare naked ladies, you're here so exciting. And we said, oh, that's cool that you know who we are.

And she says, it says here, fat bearded Canadians. No! Didn't say honky, Jonathan. Said fat bearded Canadians. You know, this feels like a great place to start. Ed, we're so, so happy that you're here. We have so many intersection points. You wrote the theme song to Miami-Mialy's breakdown,

which is such a, it is such a phenomenally exciting thing that, first of all, I mean, just someone from a band that I love so much, that we have this connection. Also, like, my favorite thing pretty much on the planet is Jonathan and he's Canadian and you're Canadian. So there's this like wonderful Toronto, Canada thing going on. And also you wrote the theme song to the television show that I was on for a decade. But that was like I joined the show through almost four years after it started.

So you had a relationship with my job before I did. So so many interesting connection points. I kind of want to start. I also wrote the theme song for Blossom. I don't know if you remember that. No, you didn't. That was Dr. John. I didn't.

That was Dr. John. Mostly I'm excited to talk to you because Jonathan will start talking more like a Canadian when he talks to other Canadians. So I'm just going to enjoy all the vowels. We get around our people and something in our brain just changes. Monday becomes Monday. We start apologizing for everything. Everything becomes a question. Yeah.

Do you know, Maim, do you know how you get 30 Canadians out of a pool? How? Just ask. And before we go too far, I think it should be said that, you know, because you're acknowledging the theme songs. And number one, like millions and millions and millions of people have the Big Bang theme songs stuck in their head for endless periods of time. And for us, I had the podcast theme song stuck in my head for at least 15 months. straight. Like it was, it just gets in there and never leaves. And I'm sure that, you know, listeners have the same experience. It's kind of unbelievable that you can do that. Well, I'll tell you,

I am often intrigued by a guest you've had on. And so I'll click to listen. And it's always a, for some reason, I always forget I wrote the theme song. And I hear my son play that slippery guitar Lick coming in. I'm like, oh, yeah, this is cool. There seems to be something, you know, about the way that you write that really does lend itself to a very, a very kind of familiar groove in the brain that your music seems to really, it's not just that your music is intelligent, interesting, enjoyable, musically pleasing. there's really something about a hook to the way that you write. And I wonder, is this something, is it a, is it like a conscious thing?

Like, oh, I write a certain way that produces things that have that kind of hook, or do you think it's just something that comes as you're writing? Do you know what I mean? Am I crazy? I think we're all crazy in some way, my am? But I certainly am always trying to, you know, to write things that are interesting to me. And sometimes that involves some lyrical complexity. Sometimes it involves some melodic wizardry. I'm always looking for every advantage I can give the melody and the lyric to be memorable.

and so sometimes it involves just just tweaking a little you know people give nickelback shit constantly they're like the band everybody loves to hate but chad is such a good writer and he has this way of tweaking a melody or a chord to make it interesting and memorable they've done that from their first single i've been a nickelback defender since the beginning. You will never see me come home and put on a nickelback record. But every time the thousands of times I heard their songs come on the radio or on the video channel, I was always like, oh, that's cool. That's cool what he did there. So, yeah, I think as writers, we're striving to communicate an idea and then we're using every tool we've got to make it interesting and memorable.

So in the same vein and also sort of, you know, the flip side of that is, I think memorable is that's a really important word. And also your writing, you know, your lyrical writing in so many cases is also marked by very, very, a very densely concentrated, like, fluctuation of words and thoughts. And, you know, many people think about that in one week and many people think about that in the Big Bang Theory, you know, theme. How is it that you sort of are able to balance both, you know, being musically memorable and, you know, having these songs that are so, you know, enduring in terms of, you know, they really get in you and you want to hear them over and over, while also being able to be this real word master and lyrical master. Like, how do you, how do you see those kind of fitting together? And I think it's one of the most interesting parts of your success is being able to hold both of those things.

A buddy of mine that I've written a bunch of songs with a local Toronto guy called Ian Lefevre. He calls it My Verbal Tetris. He goes, you got to do your verbal Tetris thing on this verse where everything just locks together. And there's every piece is perfect. That comes from hip-hop. Like, I was such a rap and hip hop fan from the time I was a teenager. And that stuff is all about rhythmic complexity and rhythmic, rigorous rhythmic implementation. There's very little melody in it.

And it makes up for that melodic variation with rhythmic variation. So when you take a pop sensibility or like a rock sensibility like what I grew up with, and then you add this layer of rhythmic complexity onto the melodic simplicity of a rock line, you get something pretty interesting, I think. And that's a tool I've always had in my belt because I'm such a hip hop fan. I will often dive into that kind of rhythmic structure. Ed, growing up listening to hip-hop and rap, was there ever a moment we were like,

oh, I should do that too? I don't think so because, you know, I really, I grew up on Rush and The Who and Max Webster. And, you know, I wanted to be a guy with a guitar rocking out on stage. But I, you know, I, as he said, I also grew up on country music. I, I love a story song and then got totally blown away by electronic and hip-hop music in my late teens.

And I think what has always been a strength or an asset for me is just seeing it all as music. You know, I was never a punk guy where every other music was crap or a rock guy where every other music was crap. You know, I was always into everything and trying to figure out how to incorporate it into my own writing. You know, when I was trying to learn the guitar solo from limelight of Russia's moving pictures, I was also stu. standing in front of the mirror and miming Howard Jones lyrics. You know, like I just had such an eclectic appreciation of music. I just, it's all I wanted to do from the first time I picked up a guitar and I liked it all.

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Head to superpower.com. Use the code break at checkout for $20 off your membership. And after you sign up, they'll ask how you heard of. about them, make sure to mention my and Biala's breakdown to help support the show. I don't know if I'm the only non-Canadian wondering about country music in Canada. Keep in mind, we Americans know very little about anything besides like the city that we live in, much less like the state or the country or the world. But when I think of country music, you know, it's such a, for me, it's like such a quintessential like American, southern, you know,

kind of art form. And, you know, I think especially of, you know, before that, I think of blues. I think of, you know, the music that came out of the culture of, you know, this country in the South. I wonder, you know, I think that Canadians often, you know, tease so many things about America. I wonder what does country music sort of symbolize when you think of, like, you know, the culture that it comes from? And how far away that is, you know, from. the way you grew up? Well, I think, first of all, the only advantage Canadians have over Americans is that we consumed all of your media growing up.

We literally watched your TV stations and all of your films and listen to all of your music. We had sort of parallel, you know, you guys had he-ha. We had the Tommy Hunter show. You guys had Hank Williams. We had Hank Snow. You know, and these were amazing performers and writers, but they were just as all country music was. They were all influenced by each other. They were doing their own thing.

And we had amazing country and folk artists. We had a very distinctly East Coast maritime kind of folk and country scene. But it was all incredibly influenced and cross-pollinated. with American performers and writers. A lot of stuff was relegated to Canada only, and you wouldn't have heard it. But lots of our stars, you know, Anne Murray, for example, or, you know, she dominated the country charts in the late 70s

through the 80s into the 90s. So a lot of it was kind of piggybacking on what was happening in America, but we also kind of developed our own scene and then famously the kind of Yorkville scene which sprung Joni Mitchell and Neil Young and you know, they immediately moved to California, but we still claim them as our own.

You have a new album, Bear Naked Ladies has a new album in flight. It's your 18th studio album. Is that correct? That is correct. Wow. And you've been quoted as saying that this was the easiest writing period that you've had. Is it true that you wrote eight songs in a day?

I don't know what happened, but, well, I have some guesses, actually. It's the first time in our career. We just marked 35 years a couple of days ago. And last spring was the first time. time in 35 years that we said we're taking these two months off to write and it's sacred we've never done that we've we've said okay we're going to kind of write during this time period and then it'd be like oh we got an offer for a festival here great let's do it okay we got this private offer corporate offer okay let's do that you know we got to fill the bank accounts

got to pay everybody still you know yes we need to write a record but we got bills to pay and this is the first time in three and a half decades that we called the writing period sacred and said no to everything actually said don't even ask this time is off and it allowed me to relax into a place where I knew there was nothing on my calendar. My wife actually went away to, she took her mom to Antarctica. They did this fantastic trip. Her mom's in her late 70s

and, you know, kind of said one day, oh, you know, that's a bucket list trip for me. I'll probably never get to go. And my wife just totally called her bluff. She was like, let's go. Ed's trying to write a record, you know. It'd be great to get out of the house and, you know, give him some,

time. So I had fragments of songs. You know, I had little snippets. I had couplets and maybe a melody idea. I think I had about 20, 22 ideas that were just ideas, just a lyric or just a little melody with a fragment of a lyric. And I sat down on a Monday and said, I want to finish. I want to finish. one today. If I can finish one song today, I'm going to feel good about writing. And I, at 10 o'clock, I looked up and I had finished eight songs. Wow. And I started texting the other guys, like, I don't know what happened today, but I started sending them MP3s of just me singing. And I was listening back to them. And I thought, well, maybe I just wrote eight crappy songs. And that'd be fine, too. I was going to say, like, are they all the same chords and the same tempo?

Well, I wondered that, you know, and I started making, like I skipped lunch and dinner because I was just ideas kept coming. I started making myself a late dinner and listening back to the songs. I was thinking, I really like these. I basically wrote a whole record today and I really like the songs. Maybe your wife needs to go to Antarctica more. Yeah. Or at least just, you know, to the park for a couple of hours. And do you find that, like, was that a spiritual experience when you look at the sort of what was flowing through you?

A lot of creatives talk about sort of being, you know, getting into the pocket or into the flow or sort of just channeling. Like, what do you attribute sort of the internal experience that you had while doing that? It felt like I was pulling from everything I learned all day. and I wasn't under, I wasn't feeling the pressure of a deadline. I also had kind of set myself a goal of not trying to be so slippery on this record, not trying to be so slick and wordy and overly clever. I actually said to a few friends,

I want to write some simple songs on this record, some simple, honest songs where I'm not overthinking myself. I just kind of want to let it come out. And I think it just served me really well to be relaxed, not feel the pressure of a deadline, be alone and uninterrupted, and kind of approach it as a craft. You know, I think I'm, I had, I'm finally getting to the point in my career where I'm not trying to impress anyone anymore. You know, I'm not striving for a hit. I'm not looking for a chart position.

I'm looking to express an idea, communicate something, and that's kind of all it has to be. That's beautiful. and a lot of relevancy, I think, to people in their everyday lives, you know, not trying to impress, not trying to chart top or be, you know, angle towards some outcome, but just sort of drop into an authentic expression. So that's really nice. I want to touch on what do we need a little bit, which is this beautiful song on this album. And, you know, I would never describe your songwriting as simple. But there is a simplicity. you know, to this song in particular.

And I asked Valerie to turn it off because it was making me cry. And you have one of those voices that often sort of brings me to tears even when there's joy, even when, you know, even when it's not sad, but I am a person who often weeps.

He's such a terrible singer. Exactly. No. Not like that. But, you know, I... There's something in this song that feels, you know, there's a melancholy to it. And, you know, the lyrics are beautiful. And I said to Jonathan, look, he wrote us a theme song, a new theme song for our life.

That's very sweet of you to say. That's my Scottish heritage deflecting all compliments at all times. You will not compliment me. But there really is something to, you know, this notion that, you know, especially in our culture, you know, we do. We live in this kind of culture of excess. both, you know, kind of materially, but also conceptually. And, you know, after COVID, you know, I think a lot of us sort of had a sort of a realignment of like, what are we all doing?

And, you know, Jonathan and I started this podcast during COVID because we were all, you know, kind of living with everything that was in our head. And so I wonder, does this song feel like that kind of reflection or is it just like? I'm very curious how this one came to you in particular, because it really does capture, you know, speaking of your Scottish heritage, it's so melancholy, right? There's almost an irony to it.

And also like, I don't know, I'm just like crying, thinking about it. Tell us a little bit about what do we need. The pandemic for me was incredibly revealing. And I felt guilty about what a love lovely time I had. My family and I went up to our lake spot and we kind of hibernated there for 18 months. I never thought I would get to, it's my favorite place on the planet, and I never thought

I would get to spend that kind of time there until I was in my late 70s or something. You know, I thought one day I'll get to spend a lot of time here. But it seemed like a distant reality. And when we were forced to get off the road and get out of studios and not be around anybody, everybody had different reactions to it. And, you know, I was incredibly lucky because I had this beautiful place to go. And my kids were there with me and my wife. and it was really, really lovely.

And I always wondered what it would feel like if I couldn't get up in front of applauding appreciative crowds night after night after night, you know, talked about it with my wife for years. Like at some point this is going to stop and what's that going to be like? Like, I'm going to need you to clap for me when I walk in the room and as I leave, you have to clap long after I go,

and then I'll come back in for one last bow. I might even say one more thing before I go, but, oh, what just happened? Amazing. That's your applause. That's a new Apple gestures thing, I think. I don't know. You just gave yourself balloons. It's supposed to do stuff now.

I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know how it happens, but it happens. You deserve it. You deserve that. I don't know. I don't know why that's happening. But anyway.

For people only listening, we just had balloons come across the screen. When Ed said he needed applause and wanted accolades, he got balloons. Yeah. Okay. Thank you iOS 17 for that lovely surprise. So Apple, please send the advertiser. money directly to us. So I, you know, I always wondered what that would be like to kick into a way lower gear

and be off the radar and be sitting with myself and my thoughts. And it was, admittedly, it was a little bit worrisome. Because I haven't had to be in that headspace for my entire adult life. And I found to my surprise and delight, and I think to the shock and delight of my wife, that I really, really loved it. And paradoxically, it made me really appreciate performing even more because then I knew I was doing it out of a desire to do it, not a desperate need for the attention and appreciation of the. crowds so it kind of eliminated that variable for me you know i i struggled with insecurity my my whole life imposter syndrome and i don't think you will find a lot of performers that don't grapple with some level of insecurity and i did a lot of work i did a lot of therapy to try and understand that and

and grow and learn and be more self-confident and more self-sufficient. And I think it just coincided nicely with being able to retreat into my own space, have a lot of time to reflect, and then go back out into this incredible life that I've built and perform on my own terms kind of, you know. And what do we need is just about that simplicity. It's like all my dreams came true a long time ago. So I've got to just enjoy this now. And of course, that can be scaled to so many different lives and experiences.

You know, for me it was just about being very reflective and appreciative, grateful. I want to ask you to elaborate a little bit on that. You know, one of the really incredible things that's happened, you know, with this podcast is we get people like yourself, people who have lives beyond most of our wildest dreams in terms of success and fame and notoriety and, you know, in many cases a life that many of us can't even imagine, you know. But I think it's really important that you said that you can scale that. And, you know, what I don't want people to think, and I know you don't either, which is why I kind of want you to flesh it out a little bit more, is that like, if I become a famous singer, like, I'm in bare naked ladies, like, I'll have everything I need. And then, you know, what you're talking about is a mindset of satisfaction, sufficiency, and enoughness. Am I right? Totally. I mean, I had a number one worldwide hit. and was selling millions and millions of records, but I was personally kind of a mess at the time, you know,

really struggling with motivation and with insecurity and doubt and on and off depression. You know, fame and attention gives you all kinds of access and gives, you know, it certainly gives you money and it gives you experiences, but it, it doesn't fix you. You know, it also amplifies your deficiencies and aggravates your insecurities. You know, I grew up as a child in an alcoholic household. my father was a high-functioning alcoholic, but a non-communicative alcoholic. And so you spend a lot of energy kind of ignoring the dinosaur in the room

and vying for an attention you will never get. And it wasn't until close to my father's passing that I really kind of found some peace with that. And it took an enormous amount of work, like an enormous amount of work, decades of working through it, teasing through it. So this peace and comfort I find myself in now is hard one. You know, it's not an enlightening moment.

It's decades of hard work. This is, I mean, first of all, we're, we're so appreciative that you're, you know, willing to speak this frankly about this kind of stuff. It's not, it's not for nothing, you know, that the way that many of us grow up sometimes just get sort of like pushed away, swept under a rug, like, we don't talk about it. I'm fine. I can do it. And you're, I think you're the fifth of five. Is that correct? Yeah, I'm the baby. You're the baby. And I wonder if you can talk a little bit, you know, my decades of work, in case anyone's curious, you know, have been spent really trying to cultivate compassion. You know, compassion for the alcoholic is sort of the phrase that we use. You know, compassion for the alcoholic while still being able to say, this changed me in ways that we're, you know, compassion for the alcoholic, while still being able to say, this changed me in ways that we're, you know, we're. not my choosing, you know. And, and I wonder when you sort of look back, and I think, you know, you've spoken about this, your dad, you said, was a pretty high functioning alcoholic, which many are, you know, the notion of like a derelict or a bum or someone on the street

is a very small percentage of those who, you know, who have problems with alcohol. Do you know, like, emotionally, like who your dad was in terms of why. he drank. Like, what was he running from or what was he protecting? Because, you know, I always like to remind people, like, alcohol is not the problem. Drugs is not, the problem is being sober. The problem is living with whether it's your demons or, you know, your insecurity. Do you know who your dad was in terms of what sort of shaped that for him? Well, I think I spent way too much energy and time worrying that I was the problem, you know, that I was. wasn't worthy of love or that I wasn't worth the attention or it took me so long to realize

that it had nothing to do with me. You know, I was the fifth of five and I was a distant, like my siblings were all kind of a year and a half apart and then there was a seven year gap and then me. So I also, you know, I felt like the accident, you know, like I wasn't in the plan and maybe that was part of the reason he was depressed or whatever I I tried to make myself the reason I've I felt like somehow I was to blame for it or that um you know I felt responsibility in it in some way and that really made it harder to understand and harder to deal with because I think my dad really sank into alcoholism more so um you know when I was younger and like I remember moments of exasperation looking at old family photos of vacations and stuff and just thinking like why don't why didn't we ever do that like you did that with my older brothers and sisters but never with me so I I

always kind of felt alone and I felt responsible for his sadness, I think. What I didn't realize was another part of it that was a real struggle for me is because that relationship was so broken, I didn't, I wasn't able to reciprocate in any way. Like, I guess I had expectations of what being a good son could be. and I was never able to do that. And I hadn't really articulated that to myself, but I was talking about the frustration I felt whenever I visited my dad

and that it was hard not to expect something from him. I would try to not expect anything, but I would leave disappointed. And I couldn't make sense of it. And this amazing therapist I had, he said, you know just because he was a shitty dad doesn't mean you have to be a shitty son and it really threw me for a loop because I didn't realize that I was lacking that um gift or that even if it was

one way you know I think part of what I was frustrated about was like I didn't feel I could do anything nice for him because it was only going to disappoint me, or he wouldn't care, or he doesn't deserve it. Whatever it was in my head, I had rationalized that I couldn't do anything to help him until he helped himself or whatever that rationale was. And that line just bolded me over. And so I started just when I'd go visit my dad, I'd bring a bunch of frozen meals and put them in his freezer for him, you know, and ask him if he needed anything. Could I run and grab him anything from the store or whatever? Brought my sons a couple times to have lunch with him, you know.

And I got, I would say I got nothing in return, but I got. so much just by participating in acts of kindness towards him. It was just a gift. And I'm so glad I turned that corner a year and a bit before he passed. It really helped me understand that he was depressed. He was self-medicating. and it wasn't my fault, it wasn't my issue to solve. And, you know, then I was able to see, like, okay, well, this guy was struggling for decades.

And he still managed to go work in a factory day after day after day. There was a roof over my head, food on the table. He wasn't physically or verbally abusive to me. You know, there were there were lots of, I was lucky in a lot of ways, even though I had a totally non-communicative alcoholic father. You know, and that advice allowed me to kind of move on. you know i remember uh when he passed um i was standing with my siblings and it kind of just the it all washed over me and i was i was crying and i said god i was so mad for so long like it i feel a sense of relief now you know and my sister-in-law said it's okay had it's okay

had he didn't know and i said oh no he knew i told him And, yeah, I'm just, I'm, I guess I'm, I'm grateful for having put in the work and, and, uh, having reflected on it enough to, uh, to grow from it. And, and, and, you know, it, it took a while, but now, now I have lots of positive memories of my childhood and, and my dad was a funny guy. And, and, a smart guy. He was just drunk a lot of the time. And my anger was not allowing me to enjoy what was good and supportive and fatherly about him. That was all erased by what was disappointing about him.

And with a little time and more work, it allowed me to connect more. to the parts of my family that were really good and positive. You know, and my mom was, my mom was a saint. My mom certainly facilitated and, like, covered for his alcoholism, but she also was, like, the most supportive person in the world to me, and so verbose about her love for me and appreciation and support. And she was, like, she was the biggest bare naked ladies' fan in the world.

So, you know, I had that, on the flip side, I had that support from her. This is something that, you know, I have teenagers. They're 15 and 18. And, you know, these are conversations that we have that I didn't really have with my parents just because times were different. But did you ever think about sort of what your relationship with alcohol might be like or might not be like because, you know, it is, it's so ubiquitous, you know, in our culture. Like, you know, there's this notion of like, well, everybody smokes weed and everybody drinks.

And like, I don't know, that might be true. But I also know that, like, I get really itchy about that because I know how much numbing can feel good. And I wonder, was that something you sort of like considered or then when you became a dad? Was it something you thought about differently? Well, I decided at a really young age to just never. start. You know, I come from a long line of alcoholics and I just thought it was too dangerous of territory for me. So I avoided it. I've, you know, people always assume I'm sober and they'll ask like, you know, say, oh, I don't drink. Oh, did you have a really rough? Like, no, I decided,

like, in the sixth grade that I was never going to start. And, it was. And it was, probably mostly because this kid named Scott Bellamy said, yeah, you say that now, but you'll see, you'll be drinking when you're like 20. So mostly at 52, I did this to prove to Scott Bellamy that I was going to. But so I think my journey with substance abuse or, you know, alcohol, drugs, whatever, has actually been easy because it was a decision I made. really young and just stuck with it. So it's never,

it's never been a temptation for me. But then it was difficult, to talk to my kids about why that was the right decision for me, but didn't have to be their decision. They can follow their own path and do what is right for them. But I wanted to communicate to them with no, uncertainty why I had made this decision and why I felt like in our family it was a risk and that I wanted them to be aware of that and let them know that their mother and I would, you know,

be there for them and, you know, just to be careful. And it hasn't been a speed bump free journey for my kids. But, you know, they know I love and. support them. And that's something I never had. So hopefully they'll, you know, I know they'll figure it out. How do you have that kind of discipline? I mean, like when people, and maybe it's because you're Canadian. But when people hear about like the music industry, like it's, I mean, it's like, I don't want to see any more documentaries about music because I'm so not able to handle what that culture is like, what is that like for you literally being in the middle of it? I mean, next I'm going to ask you, like, how do you stay married to someone for 30 years anywhere, much less in that business?

Like, what is that sort of discipline for you, you know, in terms of being in the middle of such a different culture in your industry? And again, this is something I think that people can scale because, you know, I went to large college with a huge, you know, Greek system and like, I would go to these parties. and I was like, I don't want to drink until I vomit. It's just not interesting to me. Like, I don't want to black out. You know, is it just like that's how you were made or what was that like? You know, I hear stories of other bands that sound radically different from the experience of my band.

You know, we, not everybody in the, I'm the only one in the band that doesn't drink or smoke weed. or like I'm the only guy. Yeah, it doesn't partake in something. But the band was never like a shit show. Like I think we just always took the job so seriously. And, you know, none of us would have tolerated somebody being messed up for a show. Like it just, we were, we were too. driven and too professional about performing.

So if anybody, you know, was partying and flying off the handle, it was after the show, you know, and showing up for work the next day ready to rock. So, you know, we, we had a relatively public issue about 15 years ago and one of the band members we parted ways with. But the talk of substance abuse was actually kind of a red herring in the whole story. It was way more about interpersonal dynamics than it was about rampant partying. It really wasn't about that at all. And can you talk a little bit about sort of the culture of, you know, being, you know, being in a marriage for such a long time,

which is an anomaly in general. I'm just going to say it. But especially in that industry. I mean, I'm assuming your answer might be similar. But I am kind of curious. I don't need to know the details of your wife's life or what she does for a living. But like she's been with you through, you know,

the vast majority of this life of yours. And I wonder what your kind of romantic, you know, connection is like through all of this journey of fame. Well, when we started dating, my wife was lifeguarding at the YMCA. And she was paying for all of our dates because I had this fledgling rock band. You know, I don't think her parents could have been more disappointed when she brought me home at age 18 or 19. Like, I think we were 18. And she was the breadwinner because she was making that YMCA.

bank as a lifeguard, you know. And I was playing club gigs and splitting, uh, $21 takes for a night with a whole band. Like it was nutty. But, you know, we got married in, uh, 94. So this year will be our 30th wedding anniversary is coming up next summer. But my wife always says, yeah, 30 years, 27 happy years you know because I tell so many people marriage is

it's work like it's a commitment to a person and the number of times I've heard someone say I love him I just wasn't in love anymore I just think that's such a cop out it's like yeah no kidding

You know, my wife said to me, I can be the greatest wife and partner on the planet, but I can't compete with new. You know, I can't compete with a girlfriend. That's just not fair. It's not a fair playing field. And, you know, she's amazing. I have an incredible partner. It has not been, the road has not been ever smooth, but I'm super grateful we are still on it. This leads perfectly to my next question about the time that you crashed a plane when she was in it.

Yeah. And she's, and we're still together. So I wasn't, like I wasn't going to ask. And, you know, also, you lost your brother the year before you got married. Like, there's been a lot, as there is, you know, in a life. But in particular, you know, I don't want to poke at this, but I'm fascinated about, first of all, flying a plane is awesome. But I'm curious, was that moment, you know, how was it defining in your relationship? Was it, like, what didn't it bring up, I guess is what I would ask? Yeah.

Well, it brings up a lot. It brought up a ton of personal struggle for me because getting my pilots license and being a good pilot was something I was so proud of. And it was at a time when I was struggling with a lot of things personally. And I was unable to kind of internalize my success. as a writer, as a performer. I always thought, like, yeah, yeah, I'm in this huge famous band. I've sold millions of records, but that's just lucky. Like, we're just lucky.

There's way more musicians I've run into that are better than me. And I just got lucky. And I was never willing to attribute any of our success to the hard work and dedication to our craft. I just, I was not able to accept that. And getting my pilot's license and doing my instrument rating and doing my float rating and being a proficient pilot was something I had to earn and there was no luck involved. And my my sort of credibility in that world was really important to. me. And because it was something that was all about technical execution and I had to pass all these incredibly difficult Transport Canada exams that don't give a shit that I'm the guy in bare naked

ladies, you know, I have to have the knowledge, I have to do the calculations, I have to execute in the cockpit and fly with proficiency. And I was so proud of that. And I had, you know, the jokes came all the time about rock stars and airplanes. And I was always like, that's not me. I'm a great pilot. I take it very seriously. And I'm not the weekend warrior, Yahoo, rock star, who can just afford a plane. I'm the guy who, came a really good pilot and then I crashed and it it shook me like all I could think of was I could have killed my wife myself the friends we had in the plane I would have left six children between our two families orphaned and all I could imagine was was

what i had done wrong i crashed really close to our lakehouse and for about a week i would wake up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat going oh my god i just realized what i did wrong uh you know i i set the altimeter backwards i i was i wasn't at the right pressure altitude i was 200 feet lower than I thought I was. And I would put a headlamp on and hike out to the wreckage, which was still in the forest that hadn't cleared it away yet. You know, I'd check my calculations for the day and I'd go out and look at the altimeter and go, oh, no, it was set right.

It wouldn't matter anyway because I was flying visually, but I would have these like weird things in the middle of the night. Oh, my God, I don't remember retracting flaps. I oh my god did I do that and I would hike out again hike into the forest with my headlamp on and I'd go check the aircraft and I kept looking for something I had done wrong oh and I couldn't find it and that was really hard and I got another gift from the insurance guy who was investigating the crash and he said how are you doing how are you doing with all of this and i said well i'm kind of beating myself up that i didn't do the northbound takeoff on the lake you know i i did the westbound takeoff and he said how much runway do you have on the westbound i was like yeah 8 000 feet and i would have had 18 000 if i was going north right but the wind suggested a westbound takeoff i said i'm kind of

beat myself up, I didn't go north because it was like a microburst storm kind of pushed me into the hill, into the trees. And he said, so if you'd done the northbound takeoff, that might have nosed you into the lake or made you cartwheel into the water. And he was like, you, you had a good result here. You broke an airplane and some trees and everybody walked away. You need to stop second-guessing yourself. I've interviewed the places where you fuel up. I've interviewed your past instructors. I've, you know, they do a really thorough investigation. He said, everyone said, you're a good pilot, you're very thorough about your details. You know, you had an accident and when it went to shit, he did everything right. You need to move on. It was hard to do that because it was such a kind of blow

to my psyche, to my ego. Again, I, you know, I had great people around me. Corey Ma, who taught me to fly floats, said, oh, I'm going to be in the area, you know, I'll come land at your dock. You know, if you feel like it, maybe we can go for a flight. This was about three weeks after the accident. It took me a long time to realize he was nowhere near my area. He had flown out of his way to come visit me and get me back in the accident.

cockpit, you know. He took me up flying and, um, he said, do you want to take control and do you want to do, you want to fly the takeoff and I flew the takeoff and we're up and he said, do you want to do some steep turns, do you want to do some stalls? You want to just, you know, run through the paces and it was really fun. Um, and after a while he said, how do you feel? And I said, it feels weird like I feel really good. He goes, yeah, because you're a good fucking pilot. You had an accident. It doesn't make you a bad pilot or a bad person. You had an accident and everybody's okay.

So that was a tremendous gift. You know, it got me back into flying again. Got a new aircraft and flew that for maybe five or six years. Sold that about six or seven years ago, but I just got back into it again in January. Got a new Cirrus SR-S-R-22 turbo, and I'm flying like a madman again. I can't help but pointing out, you used the same phrases that you used when talking about your dad. I mean, like, it's so interesting in terms of like, what did I do?

What's the thing that I did? And I think that's so interesting. I'm thinking how many years, you know, do we go? between events, right? And like our brain will still go to the most vulnerable, you know, wound. Like it'll go to the oldest wound. And, you know, you had this, you know,

such a visceral opportunity to repair that, you know, because I was curious, like, do you ever fly again, you know? And obviously you did. I want to ask one more kind of fun thing before we say goodbye. More fun than plane crashes? I mean, literally. You tell this really funny story about when the request came in to write the Big Bang

Theory theme song and that you were kind of like, I'm not going to do that. And I think it was your wife who was like, I think you may want to Google Hootrugel is a thing. And I wonder if you can talk a little bit of, you know, generally about sort of, you of that, like, what is it when a gut instinct is like, no, I don't want to do that. And, you know, not just that like, oh, you may end up writing a song that becomes this famous thing. But in terms of, like, what is that, you know, what is the creative hurdle that you had to get over? Or was it just like, sometimes you wake up on the wrong side of the bed and

you're like, I don't want to fucking do that. And then you end up doing it. Can you talk a little bit about, because it's such a playful story with such an awesome, you know, ending? Well, it came at a period where we were... We were working all the time. We were touring nonstop. We were recording. And on top of this incredibly busy schedule, we were getting nonstop requests to write things for film and television.

And so a ton of my, you know, quote, time off was spent writing and recording things that never saw the light of day. And so when I got asked to write the theme song for the Big Bang Theory, it was on the heels of five or six massive disappointments in a row. So I kind of had my guard up, actually. I was like, I need a break right now. And I just don't want to waste time on this if it's never going to see the light of day. And because what I slowly learned was at first you're like, oh, wow. Wow. They've asked us to write the title, the opening title for Shrek 2. Like, that is so cool.

And you don't realize they've asked 30 other bands to do the same thing, you know? And so I spend all this time writing about, you know, the character's journey and everything they wanted. They said they wanted in the song. And then they just go with a counting crow song called Accidentally in Love. And, you know, I kind of thought, like, well, I could have written you a hit song. Like, I do those too, but you asked me to write this specific thing, which I did. And then you just picked the pop song. So after many disappointments, I kind of with my helmet on and shield up, took the first call with Chuck and Bill and said, look, how many other artists have you?

asked to write this song because I've just come off 18 months of touring. I'm tired. I have 12 days at the lake with my family. And if you've already asked 20 other people to write it, then good luck. I hope it turns out great. And I remember Bill saying, um, we really like your band. And we haven't asked anyone else. We really want you to compose the theme song for this show we're developing. And I was like, oh, sorry, I came in a little hot there. That was a bit of a self-protection moment. Okay. Well, that's lovely. Uh, thank you. Okay. Sorry. Sorry about that. Uh, I'll get on this. And I went away from that phone call thinking, uh, I was kind of an asshole there. Never wanted to be that guy. Um, but then in fact, I did just enjoy my vacation and I didn't get around to writing the song.

So I, I said to my wife, um, oh, I've got to call these TV guys and they're really nice on the phone call, I just never got around to writing the song. So I'm just going to call them and tell them, hey, thank you so much for thinking of me, but I just haven't had time to do this. And I was going to suggest a few people that I thought would be really good. And I said to my wife, I got this phone call. She said, who's it with? And I said, Chuck Lour.

And she said, do you mean Chuck Lorry? I said, I don't know. I guess so. And she said, you should Google him. And so it was like less than 20 minutes to the phone call. I got in the shower. The whole song came to me in the shower. I called my wife in and said,

can you please write this down before I forget it? She wrote down all the lyrics for me. I got out of the shower, threw on a bathing suit, and I recorded the Big Bang Theory into the built-in microphone in my laptop. I didn't even use any external gear. I used garage band and the built-in microphone. And I sent it five minutes before the conference call. And Chuck and Bill got on and said, you know at the end where you tag the line, you go,

it all started with a big bang, bang, it all started with a big bang. And I go, yeah. He goes, can we lose the tag and just do the line once? And I go, yeah? He goes, great, we love it. Biggest thing in my entire career is it's eclipsed everything else I've ever done. And it has been such an amazing relationship. As you know, like we were brought into that family.

We were made to feel a part of it. We did the Comic-Con panels. We were there for the taping of the 100th episode. We were brought back in to re-record the theme for the finale, which was such a beautiful bookend to the whole thing. Like, it is the biggest thing in my career. financially, but it's also one of the best things in my career because it was such a cool, interesting beginning to the relationship.

And I've just cherished the whole thing. It's so, that's such, I mean, it's a, it's a fantastic story on so many levels. Also, you know, Chuck Lurie is a musician. Like, he started as a musician. He played bar mitzvah gigs is what he most, you know, likes to talk about. but he wrote the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle's theme song. That is... I know that.

Right, exactly. I know that now. But there's something really special, you know, about the quality of your voice, the quality of your music that, you know, I think the ultimately the most special thing about how you created that theme song was that Bear Naked Ladies is the kind of music that the characters on the Big Bang theory listen to. You know, it's like meta upon meta. So the reason that, you know, we would go to Comic-Conns, the reason that we would fill that big, you know, convention hall is because we were a show about the people who go to Comic-Con.

We were a show about the people who, like, are the bare-naked ladies in terms of, like, the geek rock, the nerd-rock aspect. And, like, you know, you guys are the guys that, like, made it big, you know? And especially, and Jonathan can speak to this, like, you're also, you're the Canadian underdogs. You know, you conquered, you conquered a different country with your intelligence, your intellect, like this aspect of music that speaks so much to the characters that they made a show about called the Big Bang Theory. So, like, the layers is just. Yeah, the synergy was amazing. Yeah, it was the, it was the perfect relationship, really. You know, how do you, who do you get to write a show about wonderful nerds?

but a bunch of nerdy dudes who are going to be super into it, you know. Did you all have American success right away? What was the trajectory for you coming out of Canada? In 1992, we had had a couple of hits in Canada leading up to the release of our first record, which then became the biggest selling record by a Canadian band in history up to that point. It went diamond in Canada. We did a, I think, a 76-date Canadian tour that sold out in hours. Wow.

You know, we felt like we were, you know how they talk about like big bands like you two and Coldplay send like the rig ahead of them to set up in the next town. We felt like we were sending out people to build a town for us to play in next. next because how are there 76 places to play in Canada? You know, we have like a dozen big cities, right? It was kind of an unprecedented success story and fell on completely deaf ears the moment you went south of the border. We were playing to 14,000 people in London, Ontario, and an hour and a half west,

we were playing to 400 people in Detroit. So it just did not cross south of the border. It was another six years before we broke in America. So we were playing arenas and selling out everywhere at home. Eventually that dwindled, right? Like we became yesterday's news in Canada. There's a small pie here and we ate most of the pieces of it in the early 90s.

And then there was no more pie for us. And so we just put all of our effort into breaking in America. And, you know, we got 50 or 60 lucky breaks that all lined up at the right time. And stunt came out. And I think it debuted at number two or number three or something. And then we had a number one hit and sold millions and millions of records. and our life changed again. We felt like that early Canadian success

was kind of a dress rehearsal for American success. We now knew what it was going to feel like, but at a smaller scale. And, but we knew what to expect a little bit. And more importantly, we knew it would go away eventually. So when stunt broke and was huge, we didn't assume it would be forever. And we lived accordingly.

That's really interesting. And this will be a very deep Canadian cut for our Canadian listeners. You know, I wonder what you probably watched, you know, an iconic band, the tragically hip, not really make that jump ever. And I'm curious, you know, from your perspective, you know, I don't want to put you on the spot, but like what do you make of that never transitioning? Like they were, you know, they're Canadian icons and just sort of never had those 50 or 60 breaks that you talk about.

And I wonder, you know, what you make of that. And also if you saw that and we're like, oh, wait a second, you know, we may not make that jump. Yeah. It in some ways it's just down to dumb luck. You know, we got some breaks that they didn't get. But I think in other ways, they didn't like scaling down to come to America. They were such huge stars at Canada in Canada that I don't think they really enjoyed going and playing small places in the U.S.

And they were so ubiquitous at home. They could do their summer tour and fill massive venues and go across Canada and bring a bunch of friends with them. So I think they put all of their energy into that. I also joke, you know, when they did Saturday Night Live, they played nautical disaster. And it's like all the hit fans went, oh, right on. They played a deep cut on Saturday Night Live. And we went, they should have played the hit. Well, they were almost anti-U.S.

in how Canadian they were. And I wonder if that stance kind of, you know, that's a great example of that stance of not really playing. to get those breaks, yeah. I love those guys. And, you know, Gordon and I had kids in school at the same time. Our sons played on the same hockey team. You know, so there was a constant back and forth for play dates between our kids. I love those guys, and they're one of the best live bands our country ever produced.

the reason it didn't click in America is just down to dumb luck. It could have. They could have exploded and been huge. It just didn't happen. And it happens all the time. You know, it happens for bands in America that are amazing. And never really click with a broader following. I could list dozens of bands that I think are among the best recording artists today.

that should have a huge appeal and it just hasn't clicked for them. So interesting. I will wrap with my one plug, which is that I have a second cousin named Alan Fogel, who's probably the biggest Bear Naked Ladies fan that has ever existed. I know Alan Fogel well. He was at our, he has,

I think his website or like his handle online is the hypo. He's obsessed. All I know is he's obsessed. He has to. told me chords to my own songs when I've forgotten them. And the other night at our 35th anniversary show, I forgot the first verse to a song and Alan yelled it out from the crowd. So I know your cousin Alan. Yeah. So he's my second cousin, my dad's first cousin's son, and he's going to go crazy that we're having this conversation. He's a good guy. He's, well, he's one of those rare fans that has

cross the Rubicon to be a friend. I know who he is. I recognize him whenever I see him. I chat with him. And he's, yeah, he's a good human. Now that I've heard the full story of how you wrote the Big Bang Theory theme, I feel even worse that we approached you to write the theme song for this podcast, but it makes it all the more special that you did. And we really, really appreciate you being part of such a huge aspect of our podcast and the distinctiveness of your voice and your musical contribution really it means so much to us and it's just so much fun to get to talk to you I was so honored when you asked me to write the theme song I feel like I owe such a debt of gratitude to to Bill and Chuck and that entire family that I would do anything for all of you

at any point. And now my life is much less hectic than it was when I was asked to write the theme song for the Big Bang Theory. So whatever you need, any time. Thank you so much. It's just, it's such a, it's such an honor to, to hear you, um, share so many aspects of your life, musical and personal and psychological and developmental. We really, really appreciate your time. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. What a, what a lovely, treat. I listen to your podcast all the time. So it's a real thrill. We know you're mostly listening just to hear the theme song. Yeah, I usually turn it off after the theme song, but I do listen regularly. I didn't think I'd find a Canadian I'm more fond of than I am of you. But Ed Robertson's a pretty

close second. We're a country filled with amazing people, just waiting to be discovered by America. There's so many things that I wanted to, like, do a deep dive in in this episode with Ed. But the thing that really struck me so, so strongly was his, I don't know that he thinks of it like this. His definition of what revenge does or withholding is that it's the poison that you drink thinking you're hurting someone else. And when he talked about how he didn't have to be. a shitty son just because his dad was a shitty dad, in the words of his therapist. That story of that journey for him really, really touched me. I mean, how many times do we try and punish people by withholding our good behavior,

our presence, and it doesn't really, it doesn't do anything except breed an ulcer for us or more hatred or more resentment? And, you know, the distinction that he made was he did not feel this was an abusive situation, which obviously, you know, it's not me and Jonathan advocating for like, be nice to people who were shitty to you. But the notion that, you know, what you give attention grows. And how much joy he felt by being able to be of service and communicate to his dad and participate in his dad's life, even if it was, you know, very in small ways and bringing his kids there. This is a touchy subject because on one hand, you want to be protective when there's an emotional wound or if you feel unsafe in any way.

And on the other hand, it sort of sounded more like he was reconciling some of his own past hurts and being able to show up in a way that actually provided him a lot of comfort and peace in the days or a year before his father passed away. And also, it sounds like for him, it was an opportunity for healing. And I think so many times we assume that if we're going to heal, it has to come from someone else's change in behavior and someone else's apology. And here's what they're going to do to make me feel better because I deserve it. And especially if someone hurt you or if they neglected you, I deserve you treating me better. That's what I deserve. And instead, what he was able to say was, what if the way that I heal is by behaving like a person of dignity and like a person who has, has more recovery than this person. Like, that's an act of compassion. And to be able to give, in this

case, his father, the opportunity to sit with his kids and to say, what can I do for you? How can I be kind to you? And it's funny, when I asked about his father, who he's spoken about, you know, in other places, he had a beautiful interview in psychology today a few years ago, he said my father was a really, really, you know, a highly functional and really damaged person, you know, a really, really, really a sick man. And, you know, what I first asked him, my instincts, I don't know why I got this instinct was my first way that I wanted to have him talk about his dad was what was he drinking for? What was he covering? What do you know about him? And that's not to say that, you know, any time I hear like someone had an alcoholic parent or an abusive parent, it's like, oh, but feel bad

for them. That's not where I was going with it. Where I was going is I know this is a man who has a lot of emotional intelligence. He's exceptionally smart. He's very in touch with his. feelings. I know that he's done so much work. That's the perspective that I was hoping he'd be able to provide. And then what a, you know, what an interesting turn of events to hear that he was really able to kind of turn that around and heal himself, even if the other person wasn't ready to do it the way he wanted. Very powerful. On a slightly lighter note, I wanted to circle back to country music in Canada, I just want everyone to know,

we have pickup trucks, we have dogs, we have heartbreak, therefore we have country music. The only difference is that our pickup trucks have snow tires and sometimes the snow plow on the front. So this is a thing, and like I didn't want to sound stupid

in front of Ed Robertson, but I don't mind sounding stupid in front of you. When you talk about country music, Like, are there part, I'm going to ask, I have to ask it, I couldn't ask it in front of him. Don't do it. I feel a question coming on. Are there places in the country of Canada where it's like cowboys? Yeah, all the places that aren't cities.

Do they wear boots? Do they wear boots? Yeah. And hats, you've never been to the Calgary Airport or the Calgary Stampede? Oh, no. No, haven't. Oh, no. Look, to be fair, the top half of the country is frozen

and no one wears cowboy boots because their feet would freeze. But, yeah, Calgary is very Montana-esque. I mean, they probably don't want to be considered Montana-esque, but it's a shared culture of cowboys and cowboy hats and horses. Do they... Okay, here's another question. They talk different? He was talking about the maritime provinces,

and they sound, to me, they sound as different as... as someone from the south sounds to someone in New York. Like the maritime provinces sound completely foreign to me. Was this sounding? Was it only? I don't even know if I can't even do that accent. That is a different type of Canadian that I don't fully have. What I did want to talk to him about was my impression.

I don't think I've done it on the show of the standard Canadian hockey player post-game interview. Go for it. So, you know, the game went pretty well, and we were trying our best, and, you know, we were just playing as a team, and we just kept giving it on our all. And we had to keep dumping and chasing and going after it. And, you know, you can add a little, we were mucking and grinding, and, you know, we're just giving it our best one shift at a time. And, you know, we've got to keep our heads on and thinking about each other.

And we got to know what to do next and play smart and always be, you know, together. That's what you sound like every day that I speak to you. Exact same. Look, we didn't even get into this level of Canadian with Alanis Morissette. She's a Canadian we didn't reference. I also feel like as a Canadian musician, he probably knows all the Canadian musicians. I liked his defensive nickelback, the story about Gord Downey. And for Americans who do not know who the tragically hip is, they're probably one of the most

famous bands in Canada that never expanded. Do you remember the documentary? I think it's like saving Sugarman or finding Sugarman. It's this guy who doesn't realize that he's famous in South Africa. He's like this traveling musician. It's like, I don't know,

this is not the same as the tragically hip at all, but there's something like almost magical about their fame in Canada that they're almost unknown in most other parts of the world. And obviously Gord passed, and that was a tragedy. But what a poet that guy is. What I thought was really interesting was when he said that they'd play for,

I don't know, like 14,000 on your side of the border, and then 400, you know, in Detroit, just south of the border. And, you know, I believe that there was a lot of luck. I do. I believe there's a lot of opportunity there. But also, you know, there's something about a lifestyle that not every band can do that back and forth of, you know, in the place where we come from, it's like a whole, I mean, you know, Canada, it's just a border, but it's a very different place. And to be able to say, like,

we're going to go to a different place where we're playing for 400 people. Like, that's, it's an enormous up and down, you know, that, that I don't know that every band would want to do. Totally, the willingness, the work that they put in, I actually really liked hearing how he thought that, you know, it prepared them for the fragility of fame, that it could all go away, you know, going back and forth between these big crowds and, you know, being humbled by 400-person audiences. I really think that's an important lesson to keep them humble or keep, you know, your perspective on what you're going through. Because I can imagine, I haven't experienced this. But when you get rock and roll fame like that, it can feel like it's never going to end, which we know is untrue.

I mean, Howie Mendel had that quote to us. He's like, no matter how famous you are in a generation, people don't even know who the Beatles were. I mean, the thing that I also, I kept coming back to, you know, is this notion of him, I don't know if he considers himself straight edge, which is what we used to call it, you know, back in the day when people made the decision to not partake, you know, of drugs or alcohol. But I can't help but, but like imagine what the parallel universe might have been, you know, if that hadn't been his path and, you know, and if they had a different, you know, kind of party trajectory, like how that would have changed it, or, you know, if this is just some people, you know, don't drink and other people do, but I just the vast

majority, I mean, this is my completely unofficial statistician at work, the vast majority of musicians that I have known, heard of, or thought about also do engage in a lifestyle that typically is mind-altering in some way. And so I just like, I could barely be at a party with drunk people. I can't imagine playing gigs like that, playing festival. Like, I've been to Glastonbury. Like, you know, it's like a thing. Yes, I can't imagine that life, not just the drugs and the alcohol,

but just like performing like that and the touring schedule and being away from your family for that length of time. And he talked a lot about like he got these breaks. They got these breaks. And I think there is some predestiny to it also likely, but I think there's also something about the music that is super universal. You know, sometimes the bands that don't break out of the places that they're from. And, you know, his comment that, you know, the tragically hip,

they got the opportunity to be on Saturday Night Live and they played like this very, very deep cut almost as an FU. to the world instead of like the hit single that they had. I feel like there's a level of universality to his music, the fact that it gets so stuck in your head that, you know, is that destined to cross over in a way that if you're not that catchy, it doesn't. It's harder to expand.

I don't know. I also think that the way that he describes his writing process felt like it was almost channeling creativity, and he downplayed that, but there was an element of something otherworldly to be able to write with that volume and being that prolific in short settings. The fact that he did the Big Bang theme song

in the shower in 20 minutes, and all of a sudden, like, that's the biggest hit. Like, where does that come from? That comes from some sort of like universal consciousness that he is channeling and then becoming a conduit for. Also, why did he put on a bathing suit after he was in the shower? That was so weird. He didn't want us to think that he wrote the Big Bang Theory theme, naked. Like, I don't care.

Be in your skivies, be naked. Put on a bathing suit. I'm like, you're going to go swimming for your meeting? I heard that he was in the shower, got out of the shower, then put on a bathing suit to take the meeting. He didn't have any clean underwriting. And then I was like, maybe he just doesn't want us to think that he wrote the Big Mary thing song in his underwear, but then I was like, I don't really care. And then I was like, maybe is he going to take the meeting from like a jacuzzi tap? Is that what's going to happen next?

No. He didn't want us to think about him writing our whole universe is in a hot, dense date, naked. Also, I wanted to read before we say goodbye. I did want to read my favorite line from one week. My favorite stanza from one week. I feel really stupid that I didn't think about, you know, him as a hip-hop fan and, you know, kind of the verbal gymnastics that he does. And so I pulled up my favorite lyric, which is, I believe it's the third.

Yeah, it's well, okay, I don't know what to call it because one week has like, it's got verses, it's got pre-verses and bridges, and it's very complicated. But my favorite section has a French phrase, and I didn't know that's what he's saying. Jonathan, you're Canadian. What is D-A-N-S, New Word, L-A, New Word, M-A-I-S-O-N? Don La-Maison? Yeah, it's in the house. Look at me knowing French.

Look at you, Canadian. Watching X-Files with no lights on, we're in La M-A-Maison. I hope the smoking man's in this one. Like Harrison Fordham getting frantic, like Stingham Tantric, like Snickers is guaranteed to satisfy. Like Kurosawa, I make mad films. I don't make films, but if I did they, I'd have a samurai. That's my favorite thing.

And I love Kurosawa, and I was raised watching Kurosawa films. And I remember when I heard this song, I was like, he knows who Kurosawa is. I love it. To any of our listeners, if their universe is in a hot, hot, dense state, they should hit us up on Instagram at Bialik Breakdown. And remember to subscribe to the YouTube channel. which is called Myambialic.

And from our breakdown to the one we hope you never have, au revoir. We'll see you next time. It's Myambialyx breakdown. She's going to break it down for you. She's got a neuroscience PhD or two. One fiction. And now she's going to break down. It's a breakdown.

She's going to break it down.