Mayim Bialik's Breakdown - Eric Hutchinson: We Inherit What’s in the Air

Episode Date: June 20, 2023

Eric Hutchinson (singer/songwriter), one of Mayim’s favorite musicians, stops by for an impromptu jam session with Mayim! He discusses harnessing depression to influence his musical creativity, the effects of his father’s muscular dystrophy on his family, and what he admires about the younger generations’ attitude toward mental health. Mayim opens up about what Eric’s music has meant to her and they reflect on their struggles in high school. They also consider how the eldest sibling can set the tone of the household, how much of our difficult emotions we should share with our children, and Mayim’s process of "boring herself to sleep." Eric talks about his musical influences, the origins of his own musicality, the rollercoaster turn of events after being signed to Madonna’s record label, and who his songs are actually about. He explains why he chooses to lean into his depression in order to connect with his fans, his focus on staying present, and his emotional outlets apart from music. Mayim and Eric wrap the episode with a spontaneous jam session where they perform one of Eric’s songs together! Eric Hutchinson's "Sounds Like This" 15th Anniversary Tour: https://www.erichutchinson.com/#tour BialikBreakdown.com YouTube.com/mayimbialik Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I think it's an exciting time in our culture, you know, that I think I'm doing a lot better than I might have if I was growing up, you know, if I was 40 years ago or something. Yeah, I've dealt with depression, really, my whole life in one way or another. And, yeah, I tend to be mercurial and moody and have these moments where I feel like a genius and in moments where I feel like an idiot. and that's all, you know, I've started to learn the different seasons of my life and the different parts of my process. And I think talking about it has been really helpful. And when I was playing that album on tour and, you know, playing those songs, I would do it. I'd raise, like, raise your hand if you're on a mood enhancing drug. And it was wild, how many, you know, half the crowd. And then we'd break it down to, like, who's on Zoloft, who's on. And, like, everybody would raise their

hand. And that was just really powerful to me. Again, it was just like, I, you know, I, I really learned like when I'm depressed to go away and be quiet and avoid people. And I'm still working on that of like, that's when I need to reach out to people. But I'm lucky that I've had a way to get a lot of it out. But also I got to a certain point in my life where I said I don't want to write songs about being depressed anymore really because I thought it to be a real self-fulfilling prophecy. Like, I'm a depressed. So here's a depressed song.

And now I'm going to go out and sing that song to strange. every night. And it really was like a real moment where I stopped, I changed the rules where I wasn't allowed to write anything negative about myself in the songs. And that's, you know, permeated the rest of my life too, I think. Gen X, millennials walked so that Gen Z could run. Like, you know, like, Gen X and millennials started being like,

hey, I'm really depressed. But I'm going to keep working, but like, I'm really depressed. And that was like a huge step. But then Gen Z is taking that and they're like, I'm depressed and I'm taking the month. off. You know? And like, it's kind of amazing to see the difference, right? Because like, we got, we like learned how to identify it as a culture, but then the next generation is saying, and it's not okay and I'm going to cancel, like John Mendez canceled this whole tour. Right. Because of mental

health. And I would have never had the courage to do something like that. I didn't. I was making myself miserable on tour. And, and I think it's pretty amazing to see where we're getting to in terms of Don't even take care of yourself. That's amazing. It's Myambialic's breakdown. She's going to break it down for you because you know she knows a thing or two. So now she's going to break down.

Hi, I'm Mayamialik, and welcome to my breakdown. This is the place where we break things down so you don't have to. This is also the place where sometimes I break down. Today is one of those days because we have a very exciting episode. I get to speak to. I get to speak to Eric Hutchinson, who's a musician, whose music means a tremendous amount to me personally and also to lots of people. But his musical journey is really, really interesting. He takes us on really a journey from, you know, a lot of my sort of assumptions and thoughts about what a musician's journey is like.

He speaks to all of that and more. And he also takes us on a little bit of a journey through his own, you know, kind of his background and his, and the creative environment that he was fostered in. We also have a really special moment that he gives me a wonderful gift in that he offers me the opportunity to sing my favorite song off his album with him. And I get very emotional and don't do that well,

but it's still pretty incredible. Really a pleasure to welcome Eric Hutchinson to The Breakdown. His album sounds like this is celebrating its 15th anniversary. But, you know, he's performed on many late-night shows that you may have seen. I first saw him physically on the Macy's Thanksgiving Day parade, which blew my mind. He's shared the stage with One Republic and Kelly Clarkson and Jason Maraz. He's incredible. He's from Maryland.

I don't know what else to say. I'm just going to welcome Eric Hutchinson to The Breakdown. Break it down. So this is exciting. Welcome to The Breakdown, Eric Hutchinson. Hi. Thank you for having me. This is fun. This is fun and I'm very excited because we've had a lot of incredible guests on our podcast. You know, some who know who we are, some who don't. But I would say, you know, this is a really special one for me. And I am sorry that Jonathan's not here to watch me lose my mind. But you are not only a person who's music that I enjoy. you're a person whose album sounds like this, note the t-shirt I'm wearing, just celebrated its 15th anniversary or is celebrating its 15th anniversary.

And this is one of those albums in my life, and I've said this before I even knew I'd ever get to meet you. This is one of those albums in my life when people say, like, what are the top albums that you have, you know, as a person who loves music, grew up, you know, glued to my record player, this album is one of those albums that I tell people about all the time, people who have never heard of you, people who don't even know the genre. So to get to have you here is extremely special. Thank you. You're very welcome.

And also, Jonathan and I went to see you live at one of the shows that you are doing to celebrate the 15th anniversary of Sounds Like This. And I think it was like my first time, you know, out in a venue since COVID. and, you know, seeing live music and being also in a community of people who are so dialed in to your music, your album, and your vibe. It was really, really special. And so it's just, it's really, it's exceptional to have you here. And I'm going to try to be a normal person. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me. I would, I would like to say that sounds like this is also one of my favorite albums of all time. It's, it's meant a lot to me personally. But I would like to

to kiss up to you if I could for a bit just to say, uh, my ambialic is an amazing actress and comedian and celebrity. No, but I would like to just say that so usually what happens when I invite an amazingly famous celebrity and actor and comedian to a show, there's a whole bunch of back and forth and then usually ends with them not coming or, you know, whatever.

So the night of my show, was a massive storm. Tarrantial. Yeah, torrential storm. There was flooding, you know, biblical stuff going on in California. And I started having other people cancel on me. And I think the day before you'd said like, oh, my kids are sick, which usually also people do and then they say.

I left sick children at home for you. But I can't tell you how many texts. I'm not going to name names, but over the years of people that have been, oh, my kids are sick. I can't make it tonight. And so you said that my kids are sick. and then usually it says after that, I'm not going to make it.

But you said, my kids are sick. I'm coming. I was like, amazing. And then the next day it was, you know, torrential downpour. It was insane. People were canceling. They were like, my house just fell apart.

And you said, I'm still coming. And I said, amazing. And I was like, I would love to meet you afterwards. Which I've also done a lot. And people say, yeah, sure, definitely. Oops, I left. And so, and then, you know, and then you came backstage. And we had a nice, you know, a little moment in photo.

up and I got to meet you and Jonathan. And then I said, hey, can we exchange information? And you said, yeah, totally. And then at that point, usually people ghost after that. But you didn't. And now we've been texting each other and becoming pen pals and all just to say, it's nice to connect with you. And I'm so happy to be here.

And I feel like I've known you for a long time. I told you my family members have been saying that they think we look related. We do all look alike. I've heard that before. So, yeah, and it is kind of a, it's a funny story that the way that I found out about this show was that you posted that you knew that Miami-Mialik lives in L.A. and is a huge fan. Because I've posted about your music, I mean, I think more than once. And so this message, it was like a message in a bottle. And several people were like, Eric Hutchinson posted a message to you. And so that's literally how I, how I found out about this show. And it was a crazy. It was when we had all of these ridiculous rains

that had been going on, really, for weeks. I had spent the day with Jonathan and Jonathan's brother who was visiting from out of town. And we had had a big outing. And it was like this crazy day. And the outing we had was in the South Bay where it was not raining. And I thought, well, maybe it'll be clear

for Eric's concert tonight. But we drove back up into L.A. and it was not. And yeah, I literally had sick children. And it was like, they weren't, I don't want to sound like a negligent parent. And you're a parent, you get it. But I was like, this concert needs to happen, children. So like, everybody's going to be okay. And mama's going to put on a skirt and lipstick.

And I did. And I went out and I, it was a very special concert. So, you know, you're doing something for the 15th anniversary of this album in that you are playing it in its entirety. And, you know, one of the things about kids today, they have a very different sense of music and it's often individual songs or it's even snippets of songs or it's sometimes six seconds of a song.

And one of the things that is special to me about sounds like this is it's an album, in my opinion, that does need to be listened to in its entirety in order. I know all the transitions between the songs and the albums that most resonate with me

that I feel that way about are typically, interestingly, some of your influences. So, you know, you list people like Stevie Wonder, The Beatles, Paul Simon, Michael Jackson. And these are people who created music at a time when it was about the musical experience. You know, there's a reason that people listen to Pink Floyd's, you know, the wall, like, in its experience, because it's like a thing. So talk a little bit about, you know, what it means to you. to, let's say, create an album that you order in a very specific way and then really want people to hear it, even 15 years later, in that entirety.

Yeah, great question. I mean, yeah, I was raised on records especially, and then CDs where it got easier to skip, but, and that's what the kids call it these days. You and I used to say, like, oh, it's just a great album, but now the kids, the highest compliment from the kids is no skips, your albums and no skips, which is very, very, very good. nice but yeah I you know I've always been really obsessed and curious with how an album can be structured and you know what it lays out and even to the point where even I'm about to print this

album for the first time on vinyl ever but I actually have a video that I just found of me and my producer making the record and we're showing when it is eventually put on vinyl here's why it's set up the way it is because like rock and roll ends the first side and then oh starts the second side and like it was all. So I mean, I don't know, if you go back to all my favorite albums, whether it is the Beatles or, I mean, I think kind of the best final album of all time is Rumors by Fleetwood Mac. And, but if you look at all those albums back in the 70s, especially, they have a huge song that ends the first side. But they have a huge song at like track six. So like you don't lose momentum. And I've, I've experimented with all different types of ways over the years, you know,

as the medium has changed. I read this article where it was just like, if you want, want people to listen to your songs. It has to be the first three songs or no one's going to bother. And so, but then you never know. I have put out a number few years ago and I put this really an big epic song at the end of the album and only really came out on Spotify. And that is the song people have found somehow and they still have listened to it the most, even though it's the last one. So who knows, really? Well, I feel like I know because I know this album. I feel like I know your album better than you. Um, but one of the, one of the, one of the, one of the, one of the, one of, It is possible. One of the really special things, and I really, I encourage everyone who is listening

or watching us right now to listen to sounds like this from start to finish. And, you know, there's, I mean, there's a real, there's a real arc in particular to this album. And it is kind of the final and later songs that really feel like, not that we're coming to a low, but that there's a, there's a coasting, you know, that comes in. And I felt that, you know, specifically when I, when I saw you play the whole album, because there is a lot of energy and, like, the first chord, I mean, I could literally write a thesis about sounds like this. But the, you know, the first chord, like, it's so distinctive. And, you know, like my kids and I know, you know, when we have a mix and, you know, if you've been mixed into a playlist, which usually I do listen to the whole

album still all the way through, like that first chord, you know, that's the first song of sounds like this. But, you know, there's, there's a real distinctive kind of storytelling arc also. And, you know, for me, it's so worth it, you know, to get to the end. And I feel that way about a lot of great music, you know, there's powerful, you know, there's powerful with the Beatles, especially. There's powerful hits on every album. But there's also, you know, these gems that you really have to kind of go the distance for musically. The Beatles were like religion in my house growing up. and my parents got a really expensive early CD player that had like a manual push door and stuff.

I can't imagine what they paid for, but they got it because all the Beatles albums had been released on CD. And for a while, we just had a CD player and the entire Beatles catalog and nothing else, truly. And I wasn't allowed to touch the record player on my own, but I was allowed to touch the CD player. So I was able to really start to explore the Beatles.

And they just, yeah, like I said, my mom used to quiz me on which beetle was singing which song. And it was just very personal. And now I have a four and a half year old daughter and she is just starting to get into them. And I mean, like I said, it feels as important as like teaching familial traditions and religion and things like that where it's like, oh, this is the thing that feels so connected

to my youth. But also an amazing thing for me that I'm really noticing is just no matter how old I get, there's always a different Beatles song that raises its hand and says, like, well, this one makes sense to me now as a 40-year-old. that I didn't get at all when I was an eight-year-old, you know? And that's just, that's to me the most exciting music is the music that grows with you somehow. Yeah.

Because there's also albums that I love, love, love, but when I listen to them, it's like, oh, that's being 22. And like it kind of makes me sick to my stomach in one way or another, you know. Well, that's what kind of all of Pearl Jam is for me, you know. My NBi-Lex Breakdown is supported by Superpower. We all know the feeling of leaving a doctor's office and kind of feeling like we didn't get anything out of the experience that was useful. Maybe they're like, you're fine, drink more water.

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And after you sign up, they'll ask how you heard about them. Make sure to mention Miami-Biolix Breakdown to help support the show. So can you talk a little bit about you grew up in Maryland? And Maryland is one of those places that like you don't meet a lot of people from Maryland. I know that they exist. It's a whole place. But tell me how. I grew up almost exclusively around people from Maryland.

So I knew a lot of them. Were your parents also from Maryland? Both my parents were born in California, actually, and didn't meet until they were living in D.C. And my dad was actually giving my mom guitar lessons, is how they first met. What? Believe it or not.

Yeah. And then they didn't see each other in years later. My dad had an interesting name. His name was Royal. Years later, my mom came across him teaching a cooking class. And she was like, how many guys named Royal could there be in this area? He said, did you used to give me guitar lessons? And he said, yes.

And then they started dating shortly after. And then I grew up outside of D.C. In Maryland, right on the border. So it was an interesting place. You know, I was in a suburb. It was a very hippy kind of Berkeley-esque kind of suburb called Tacoma Park, which was like my neighbors were all Bernie Bros before Bernie Bros. Got it.

But we were right there on the cusp of D.C. so we had a lot of influence from that and a lot of international influences and different things. So it was a really special place to grow up and I really appreciate it more the older I get. What did your parents do? I mean, I want to know if your dad was a guitarist cooking teacher as an adult. Yeah, my dad was a, he had many lives. And when I was growing up, he was a contractor for construction jobs. He was doing mainly renovations.

and additions and new housing and stuff. And then he switched jobs in the middle of my life and his life, I guess, really. And he went back to school and got his master's and ended up becoming like a graphic designer. Wow. And working on websites and things. He had a very interesting life. And I've tried to blow up my own life and career so many times. And I think in all my therapy sessions, I think I just feel like that's what you're supposed to do.

It's like I watched my dad do that, you know, and like he was out of work for a while. And in retrospect, it's incredible. We had four kids in our family. I don't know how he managed to do that. But I think I'm sort of in my head, I feel like, oh, right, like you're supposed to get to a certain point. And then you just blow everything up and see what else you can do. But I just have not been able to, no matter how many times I try to quit. And my mom was a teacher and she worked with special needs, especially.

and taught at the school that I went to for elementary school. And yeah, and then I was the oldest of four. So we always had stuff going on. My parents were both music lovers, but my father was disabled, and so he had to stop playing the guitar. But my grandmother was a professional violin player, and that was where a lot of the music, she paid for our piano lessons and really was putting an emphasis on it.

her main thing was like she played as a quartet at weddings and things like that and played concerts for elementary school recitals but then she had this cool side gig where people would come through town these big musical artists and rather than bring a huge orchestra with them they would hire they still do this they hire an orchestra town to town so my grandmother ended up playing with like every musician ever from like the 60s and 70 she played with Smokey Robinson and the Jackson Five and Ray Charles and Aretha Franklin and Tony Bennett and John Denver and all these people. And I didn't get to see any of it. I was too young. But she was doing that. And she was the most vocal about me not becoming a musician when I was

really trying to. She was like, you know, so that was funny. So tell me how young are your siblings? Like what's the what's the spread? We're all about two, two and a half years. years apart. So I have, I go as boy girl, boy girl, and my youngest sister's about eight years younger than me. And my brother was a drummer. He went to school for drumming. And then he, uh, now he's an urban planner. He got out of school and was like, I don't really like the career path for a jazz drummer very much here now that I'm looking around. Were your sister's musical? Everybody loved music. My younger sister was, was, uh, doing musicals and things like that in school. And we all loved music, but even recently my brother told me, he's like, I don't know if I would have

gone into music if you had, because my brother and I played together a lot. You know, I was the, we were Hansen, or Hansen existed. And we looked exactly like them. And I cut my hair like two weeks before Hansen came out and it was like the biggest gift ever. Nobody ever compared me to them. But not that there's anything wrong with Hansen. But yeah, so we played a bunch together, but he just recently, this really stuck with me. He was just like, I don't know if I would have gone into music if you hadn't been so into it. Seeing the influence of the oldest or the, you know, whoever the oldest child is, whatever situation it is, it's really interesting of how much they set the tone.

And understanding a lot of that stuff has been informative to me in my adult life for sure. But yeah, my brother and I used to play in some different bands early on. But then when he got into jazz and stuff, I felt like it was, he was a little, you know, too cool for school. to be cool for sensitive singer-songwriters. Can you talk a little bit about sort of the climate of, you know, the way you grew up? You mentioned your dad who he had a form of muscular dystrophy. Is that correct?

That is correct, yeah. Is he still with us, just so I can be appropriate? No, he passed away, I guess about four years now. Okay. But yeah, I've written and written songs. songs and essays and things about him and tried to spread the word. He had myatonic muscular dystrophy, which is, it's a, it's a, it's a pain in the ass, you know, it's not a, it's not a good one.

And, but I've, I've spent a lot of my adult years unpacking what that meant for our family and for me. And yeah, he, he never wanted to be defined by that. So he kept, he kept going. He kept doing things. But that, it obviously, that kind of, um, thing. you know, it can hang, you know, over a family in different ways. Do you remember kind of did you experience either his struggles or did you kind of have your

own around it as a teenager in particular, I guess I'm curious? Yeah, I mean, it was, he was diagnosed when he was about 40, but he didn't, the, it's sort of degenerative. So it looks a lot, like from the outside, it looks a lot like MS or something like that where a lot of times people just thought he was drunk. Like he, his, his, his, his, his motivation. skills were off. He had balance issues. He couldn't use his hands or like he was losing the ability to speak. So if somebody spotted them, they'd just be like, oh, this drunk guy stumbled into this

wedding here or something. I was like, no, actually, that's my dad. But yeah, it was, I think it was very effective on my family. And we just didn't really talk about it. I've since gotten involved with this great organization, myotonic.org. And I just wish the internet had been what it was and that we'd had a community of people to try to connect with because growing up it just felt like he was the only person in the world. It had something like this and we didn't really understand it, but we knew he was different and we knew, you know, we knew it just looked different and he was weak and, you know, physically weak. And there was a chance, you know, it's a hereditary disease. So actually there was a chance that all of my brothers and sisters might have it. And that was really in my head pretty early on.

And I sort of just assumed I would. So there was a lot of worrying, you're turning into your parents, but also like what also comes along with that is like, and then as music became my livelihood and things, it was sort of, okay, there's going to be a point where I have to stop all of this. And eventually a while back, I started going through the process of getting genetically tested.

And I do not have it. It's a very small chance, but actually all four, of my sibling. All of us have none of but nobody inherited the gene, which is I think like a 4% chance or something like that. And so that's been that's been taking some time to get used to too. Yeah. I sort of just grew up assuming one thing and it's been different. But I've tried really hard to talk openly about it and sing about it. And mainly what I've learned is everybody's got something

like this in their family, you know, and we sort of push it aside or don't talk about it. And, you know, it can be very triggering for me when I'm out and I see somebody with, you know, a disabled person in their family or something. And they're trying to just get by. And I just remember the feeling of everyone's just trying to make it not a thing and not a big deal. We're just trying to act normal. But everybody is not used to you.

So, yeah, I can spend the whole podcast talking about it. but we can wrap it up. But I appreciate you asking because it's, I mean, like, the way I'm talking about it now, like I could not have actively done, I don't know, six years ago, seven years ago. I didn't even know. I didn't have the language. I didn't have the understanding. So it was a really big point in my life to sort of say,

I'm going to stop avoiding the monster in the closet. I actually started to learn about what this disease is. And so that was important. Yeah. And I'm obviously interested in all aspects of this. But I wonder if you can talk a little bit about, you know, what you just said, I think, is something really relatable. Like there, there, we have many points in our lives where we get to say, like, I want to do

this different, you know, whatever this is, whether it's a relationship or, you know, a pattern, you know, for me, I've recently been trying to overhaul a little bit of kind of how I spend my evenings because I thought you just like, work, eat, watch TV until you fall asleep, and then imagine that you're going to feel great every morning. And apparently that's not a thing. So I wonder if you can speak a little bit to what was it? I mean, I know you said your daughter is four and a half.

So in my mind, I'm like, it's when he got married. He decided to do it. But I don't know when you got, but maybe you're not, I mean, I have no idea. It may have nothing to do with it. Was there something in particular that made you say, like, I'm going to do this different? I think that's what was funny. like I'd been in therapy for years.

And then one day I casually mentioned that my dad was disabled, like years into therapy. Like I hadn't even occurred to me to mention it. And my therapist was like, wait, what? Let's back up a little bit. Like this would have been good to know for the last like five years while we've been talking. Like I hadn't even, I was like, oh yeah, my dad's disabled and I might have the gene. I don't know. But anyway, can we get back to stressful traffic, you know, or whatever?

So I think really what it came to a head was I could just feel the anxiety that it was creating in my life of like this ticking time bomb of I don't know anything about this thing and I might have it and I don't really know what it is but I'm just trying to avoid it because so my dad's credit he really tried to avoid having it to find his life but the downside of that was that my family didn't really talk about it or really know much about it you know my dad didn't want to that wasn't his thing it was like he got into a bunch of other things so I think I just came to a point where I was like I need to know what's going on with me regardless I think there'll be more power in that.

But like I remember just making the first phone call to try to find how to start the process of getting tested. Like I didn't even know how to talk to the hospital operator. Like I didn't even know what words I was using of like how to start the process. It was incredibly terrifying. And you know, at the end of this all was sort of, I'm going to go down this whole path just so I can get tested and get, you know, get my positive result. So I'm like, I'm just going down. this path of like changing my entire life. And yeah, so I think up until that point, I certainly had, I was not really that interested in having kids. And I don't necessarily think I did it to have

kids, but once I got the negative result, it certainly changed how I felt and it felt, you know, felt more responsible and safer going down that path of parenthood. I don't mean to play therapist, but that's like really big what you just said. Like, that's a huge thing. I mean, I, and, you know. It is. You get, you get to the good stuff on this. And you do it fast.

You're like, what are, what are track listings like for you? And also, what about your disabled father's past? You know, that's very interesting. I mean, there's so many aspects of, I think for many of us, especially, you know, our generation, I'm a little older than you, I think, but like our generation, you know, we don't come from people who were taught how to speak about. feelings. So, you know, and even even in supportive and loving homes, you know, even the best intentions of kind of that generation, in many ways, missed the mark for the level

of emotional intelligence that we are expected to have, you know, as we go out into the world. So that's a really, you know, but we also inherit, you know, we inherit, this is sort of that like epigenetics, you know, we inherit what floats in the house. We inherit, like what's in the air. We inherit, you know, how to know what to ask about and what not to ask about, right? And, you know, I'm often asked, you know, my father of blessed memory was a very complicated man, a frustrated artist. And, you know, he himself, you know, would say, like, I have demons.

You know, he felt he had, he had demons. You know, he had things that that chased him and pursued him that he could not in this lifetime, you know, really aggregate. and, you know, people will ask me, like, why didn't you say something to someone? Why? And it's like, because that's just how it was. Like, it wasn't even part of my consciousness to say, like, I think someone, I'm not being emotionally attended to on a daily basis in a way that's appropriate for my psychological development. So we do. Like, we pick that stuff up. I'm kind of curious. What did you learn from your mom? Like, what was kind of her role in, in, in, you.

that relationship and in your family? I think my mom's way of dealing with a lot of it. I mean, my family is very big on sarcasm and comedy. And, you know, that certainly took a hold over the years. And but, you know, my mom's thing is just to keep it going. Stay busy, stay positive and keep moving. But yes, to your point, I think it's just sometimes feel like all the therapy I've done now. when I sometimes talk to older people, I can feel like, oh, like, I'm fluent in like a fully different language that these people were never trained in or taught.

So it can sometimes feel very unfair to expect certain things from people. But, yeah, I mean, you know, I think my parents had four kids and they were just trying to keep everything going. I always say, like, four kids is fun because there's always something going on. But like, also there's always something going on. And so it was like, oh, yeah, think about being in high school and when I was like failing out of school because there wasn't nobody. Nobody was like really paying attention. They were just like, are you getting off to school? Okay, good.

Like, be in charge of somebody else then help out here. We're just trying to keep the fire out, you know, keep putting water on it. I don't know. That's not a great analogy. But yeah, we had a lot of good times. But I'm curious about that as you're saying that with your dad. It's like I'm thinking a lot about like how do I, how do I? how do I be vulnerable to my daughter as she's growing up without freaking her out?

Because there's also the other thing of like putting too much of the burden on the kid and having them feel like. So like how do I say like I'm kind of sad today or I'm off the mark today without, but that's okay and we get that's just part of it. But how do I do all that without, you know, freaking? I'm not asking you to solve this. No, no. Oh, no.

I would love when people give me things to solve. I want to circle back to that because I kind of want to get a, us, I want to learn a little bit more about, you know, I mean, you mentioned school. I'm curious what you were like as a teenager, because I have to say also, you know, for those of us who don't live life as musicians, like there is this like very, I mean, I think I'm speaking for a lot, a lot of ladies and possibly many gentlemen of like there's this fantasy of like who that dreamy like musician is. Like, I knew that guy in high. school, you know, like he was, he would write probably. Well, it's like we, we, you walk among us.

You know, you do. You walk among us. But I'm curious, like, were you very locked into like, I'm going to be a musician and I'm writing songs and I'm guitar boy? Or did you have kind of other things that, you know, occupied your existence? I mean, certainly, I wrote my first song, like, officially when I was like eight years old. And like it was just always a thing. And that was because my music teacher, she noticed I was always singing songs. And she showed me and she said,

hey, why don't you come in after lunch and I'll show you? This is what we do when you have a song idea. Like, and she actually like charted it out and wrote my first song for me. And I actually, I still have it. And I think that was so, as I think back on it, that was so monumental because somebody was paying attention that I was interested. And someone said, this is how you do this.

And suddenly then I was doing it with all my friends and my brothers and sisters. And it was just always a part. And it was just, it still is a huge way to organize myself and my thoughts and to make sense of things. And to be in charge of the, you know, the narrative and things like that. And so it's always been helpful to me. But I actually, I was always doing it. But I also was really interested in film and directing and writing. And I went to college.

at Emerson College to be a film major and all of my friends and my wife and I met all these people there. They're all in that world, comedians and writers and directors. And so I always thought I was going to do that. And as I finished school, I was taking music more and more seriously.

And I just, people were taking notice. I remember that was the big thing, was I printed up my own CD and I was selling it out of my dorm room. What was that album? Tell us. I want to know. That album was.

That album was called Songs for Nagoya, which was the name of my guitar. Nagoya was, it was like a knockoff of a Martin guitar because they were made in Nagoya, Japan. So I was selling that little EP that I had made. And I remember that strangers I didn't know started knocking on the door saying, like, hey, I heard you've got this CD. I'd like to get one. And it was like, oh, it's not just my friend's doing me a favor. There's people paying attention to it.

And, but yes, a long, long way of saying, like, this is what I was doing in high school. This is what I was dreaming of in high school. And I recently made an album that's all about my high school days. And I kind of went back and wrote from that perspective and made all the songs sound like the 90s and the alternative music I was listening to at the time. And that was a really interesting project for me. But I was not cool in high school. I didn't have.

I don't feel like it was like I might I actually recently asked this to a friend of mine from high school I said like what do you remember about me from high school and she was mainly like you were really awkward you were creative but awkward you know and for you were you did you go to a normal high school were you being tutored at that point? Yeah I am yeah my I mean I was on Blossom from the time I was 14 so um that would have put me in ninth grade. And I had tutors, you know, for all my subjects. My parents were both public school teachers.

And then my mom also taught early childhood, like preschool. But, you know, they were very, very specific about how they wanted me to be educated if I wasn't physically, you know, in public school. I went to public school, though, my whole life. And so what would happen is we'd work, you know, the TV season is like, you know, a fall to spring. So basically you would work three weeks and you'd have a week off. And so on those weeks off, I would go back to public school. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, I went to school with, there were some, you know, it's L.A. So like Alison Hannigan went to my junior high and, you know,

there were a couple actor kids. But the difference, you know, I was always looking for how I was different. And I was different, you know, and what I saw with those other kids is that they had a real ease and comfort with being famous. So when they would come back to school, like, they just, you know, they, they seemed confident and kids would go up to them and they'd be like, yeah, I'm on TV. And like, it's cool. And I'm not saying they were bragging or, you know, kind of showoffs. I'm just saying that they seemed comfortable in a way that I know that I was not. So, you know, my experience coming back to public school was not pleasant. You know, I was already strange. I was a trumpet player, which was, you know, I was one of the only female trumpet players. And, like,

I was in chess club. And, like, I was not, you know, I was strange, you know, I was, I had a very strange sense of humor. You know, I definitely had friends, but at that age, girls were really getting into boys. And I just, there was a lot of, you know, kind of like gossip and, like, note passing, you know, and just like it became a lot about, like, who was doing what with who. And And then like, it was just like it didn't fit me. I felt like I belonged in a different era. You know, like I didn't feel like I fit. So I did go back, you know, to public school on those weeks. But by like 11th grade, it became so awkward. And I was just kind of by myself when I would go back. I made friends with like some of the punk kids because I felt that that was a really accepting kind of community. And I felt really comfortable there. And I had, you know, my first crush was. you know, this like guy who was into sex pistols and, you know, I wrote him poetry and I was very smitten and he, you know, he had like, he had, we called it the weed whacker because it looked like you had taken a weed whacker to his hair. It was like shaved. And, you know, if anybody's listening,

his name was Misha. And I connected with him in college. And, you know, he expressed like, he's like, I did not know what to do, you know, when we were 14 and you were like bringing me poems on the first day finals like um but anyway so you know i i i didn't feel like all that there was to me was that i was an actor but you know that's kind of what people saw and you know girls at that age it can be very tough and uh well i would especially assume if you're coming in every couple a week so it's like even if you weren't an actor if you were just coming in every few weeks and everyone's like oh she's back for a while but don't don't talk to her too much because she always leaves again yeah pretty Pretty much. And, and, you know, and like I said, I just didn't feel, I didn't feel a real ease

socially. I also, you know, I went to school. I went to public school in the valley. And, you know, those were, they were, I went to school in neighborhoods that had gang activity. And so there was also, like, attention at that time, you know, in the 80s and 90s here. So it was kind of interesting. I had a very interesting experience. But I'm a fan of public school, but it's very different now, you know, also than it was then. I mean, I think in doing my project about high school and stuff, I've learned from, because I just sort of assumed everybody hated high school because I just felt like I was trapped.

I remember my real feeling was like, this isn't real life. This is what I have to do all day until I can go home and do whatever I want to do. Like, it just felt like this does not matter. I'll do these things because I'm being told to. But eventually I stopped doing them and started getting really terrible grades. But I just had a sense of like this. My life is going to be bigger than this high school, kind of, which didn't really work very well, because then I didn't take high school. I didn't do any extracurricular activities.

I was just fully on my own. I've learned that people that did like high school, they tend to like most things. Like, there's a lot of people that love high school, but it's because they liked high school. They liked college. They like working. They have an optimism. They, you know, many. And they know how to just get in where you fit in or whatever.

Right. I kind of resented being trapped. and forced to learn things I wasn't interested in. Right. So I don't know. Well, so I'm curious. So after high school, you went to Emerson and you, you know, you had a, it sounds like a variety of kind of artistic, you know, ventures and things that you were part of. But I'm most interested in the fact, and you talked about this at the show, that, you know, sounds like this.

First of all, you were not signed with a late. label when that album was released. How did it come about? You also talked about like the album almost didn't make it. Like you were almost like, this is not working. Yeah. What's that moment? I've had a lot of them.

You know, that's a question I get odd is like, when did you know you made it? And I'm always just, my answer is like, I'm still waiting to feel like, okay, I've got two feet on the ground. And it takes a lot of stepping back to be like, oh, I would quantify, you know, because growing up, we talked about Stevie Wonder, the Beatles, Michael Jackson, Paul Simon B, the top echelon, the ultra echelon. So aiming for that, even though I've gotten so much further than I could have ever hoped, you know, I spent a lot of my life feeling like my adult life being like, ah, I didn't make it. Anyway, so I'd been doing music for a few years and I got signed to Maverick Records, which was Madonna's label. And I was say goodbye to all my loser friends and everybody that had been holding me back because now I've made it.

I got signed to Maverick and I went out there and I, you know, they gave me a tiny, even by today's standards, which is nothing, they gave me a really tiny advance to come join it. And I was like, this is amazing, great. I'm signed to a label finally after all these years on the road. And I didn't notice that like all the walls of the place were on fire while I was getting signed. And a few weeks after I got signed and I was making my record and they were paying for it and I was living out in L.A. and they were paying for it. I get a call from my manager who said, the label is folding and it's all going to be part of Warner Brothers. And Warner Brothers will decide who they want to keep, but that's going to take a while. So you can't stay in your hotel room after tonight.

Everything's on hold and you need to go home. And it was devastating. It was devastating. And I went home and I was, my mom and dad were being nice enough to let me live with them when I wasn't on the road. And because I was traveling a ton, but, you know, then I was living with my parents. And I'm sure looking back on it, they must have been like, crap, this is the rest of our lives. He's living here as a musician. And so I went home and I really, I eventually the label decided, Warner Brothers decided they did not want to keep me on the

label, but they did. There was something in my contract where they had to, it's called pay or play, where they pretty much had to buy me out of the contract. So I got, for me, a very sizable check at the time to go away. Okay, but emotionally, can you just like take a pause here? Because, you know, as an actor, obviously, like my whole life is about being told no. Like, you're not this enough, you're not that enough. Like, no, no, no, no. But as a musician, I always have this, this vision that, there's a certain level of autonomy because you're literally creating your material, meaning like you're going to create it, you're going to create it whether it goes on the air or not. Like you're a songwriter and a musician, even if no one hears it, right?

Like I only exist when you put me in that little, you know, box that you watch on television. But that sounds like I would, me, I would want to crawl into a hole and not come out. Yeah, which is pretty much what I did. And to your point, I think when I really, came down to it and I was like, am I going to do film or music? I did, I think in the back of my head, know that. If I want to make a film, I got to get a hundred people together and all this, but it's like if I want to make a song, at the very least, I can do that myself. I do agree. That's a huge, it's a huge gift. I mean, that being said, you know, you can talk to plenty of frustrated

musicians. Oh, sure. I wrote this song, but nobody will listen to it or they have listened to it and they hate it. But so yes, I got dropped from this label and I just, I was at home licking my wounds feeling really stupid and having to go talk to my loser friends again, make up with them, you know, and living up with my parents and I was just taking a good look around being like, should I take this as a sign? Should I take this check I just got and should I put a down payment? on a nice house in Maryland, which is a great idea to do, by the way, or should I, you know, should I use this to go to the next stage of my life? Because I think that was my chance and it didn't happen.

But the more I thought about it, I just couldn't stand the idea of telling my family and friends that, like, they're like, oh, are you still doing music? And I was like, nah, I quit. I got bought out. But I have a house now. I have a mortgage now. And I also just felt like whatever next, because I tried for years and years to make my first official album.

I'd had all these projects that had gone wrong and I'd spent all kinds of time and money. And I didn't know what I was doing because recording is very much like playing an instrument. Like if you just go in once a year and try to record something, I didn't know what to do. I didn't know how to be comfortable in the studio. I didn't know how to perform the same way. And so I was making all these, I found plenty of producers that would take my money,

but I didn't know, I couldn't make an album that I was happy with. And I really felt like if I could go on to the next stage of my life and I never actually made this album that I'm hearing in my head, it's going to haunt me forever. And I'm never going to be happy doing the next thing. And so I decided to take the money that I had and use it to finance making this debut album of mine that I had in my head forever. And I connected with some people through the internet, but again, we're willing to take my money and help an amateur songwriter. And I spent the next couple of months going to L.A. and to Boston with these two different producers.

And I made this album. And I went over budget. I had to borrow money from my violin playing grandmother to finish the record. She was thrilled. I told you not to do this. And so there it was. At that same time, I was sort of falling in love with my wife,

and I decided now that I'm totally broke, this would be a good time to move to be near my girlfriend in New York. That seems like a great idea. So I moved to New York with this finished album that I really had no plans for other than I had to do it. I guess the next chapter of that would be

it ended up in some different hands that did get me notice. and changed my life. Well, let's just, I mean, you're not going to say it, so I will. It catapulted into the top 10 of iTunes becoming the highest charting album by an unsigned artist in iTunes history. It debuted at number one on Billboard's Heat Seekers chart,

and you then found yourself in a bidding war, don't hide from me, between several companies, eventually signing with Warner Brothers. Warner Brothers, who had just dropped me and didn't even know when they reached out to me and said, we like this album of yours. They didn't even know they'd just drop me. Sorry, that's ridiculous. I was so angry, even though I was happy.

I was still like, this is crazy. But yeah, so the part I don't want to skip because I want to give him his due is Perez Hilton, the celebrity blogger. He got my music cold emailed to him from a friend of mine from high. high school said, my buddy just finished this. Wow. CD, you should check it out. And he did, and he posted it on his blog,

me with a very glowing review, and he had four songs to listen to, and it overnight exploded. And it changed everything. And then I had a bidding war going and all these things. I mean, it was like the best week of my life, probably. You know, like it was just everything I had dreamt about was happening. And the best part was I got to keep the record the way it was, And Warren Brothers said, we'll put it out.

And then that led to a whole other chapter of my life of just being on the road forever. Right. I mean, literally, like, that was, I'm always interested in, you know, I've had a couple of these, but it really sounds like you had a similar one. That moment when, like, everything changes and nothing can go back to the way it was, you know? I mean, you're still you and you go about all your things. but um how many do you feel how many of those moments do you feel like you've had you know i think like when beaches came out you know when i was 13 and that eventually led to like me having my own tv show

you know that literally was like like that's why i had my own tv show was because that movie you know came out so you know that that was like that was a huge one that kind of took me from you know the family i came from and the the story of you know that part of my life into the next part of my life. And then, you know, I think, you know, the decision to leave the industry and, like, get a PhD and, like, that and become more of a science person. I don't think of that as that moment because people can't always go back. But I think being then cast in the Big Bang theory, you know, with an infant and a toddler

when I had never, like, seen the show and didn't know what I was getting into, you know, and then kind of like I woke up a decade later. And I was like a different, you know, I had like a reality that would never, you know, that will never be kind of undone, as it were. I have an almost 15-year-old, and I have a 17-year-old. And so this album came out, you know, at a time when we had just started listening to music, we, the public, we had just started listening to music in new ways, you know. Yeah.

You know, we were married at the time. My ex-husband, though, you know, he was kind of the, he was the outside world, you When I had kids, I was, there weren't smartphones and it was just like me nursing for hours and like writing my thesis. And, you know, it was a very, very, very different time in that, like, you didn't even sit with a computer. You just, like, sat and nursed your baby. And, like, I would, like, read a, like, mothering magazine, you know, like, that was the world. It was like the 1700s. Exactly. But, no, when I think about music, you know, it was at that time that, you know, Mike, he would, like, go out into the world. He was, you know, we were both in

grad school at the time. And he brought back, like, Nico Case, and he brought back, you know, Keen, and he brought, he brought Eric Hutchinson. And, you know, and I have to say, like, it was, it was one of those, one of those experiences where, like, I felt like I knew the whole album, you know, like it, it touched a very special place. And one thing I wanted to ask about, who are the people in these songs? Because, you know, you have, I mean, first of all, I just want to say, like, you have a very unique voice and sound that really feels like it's fusing, you know, like jazz and Motown and, you know, kind of the best parts of like, you know, like folk and rock, but also it's very funky. and, you know, there's a very specific, yeah, the first time I saw you when you were on the Macy's Thanksgiving Day parade, and I was like, everyone needs to be quiet, Eric Cushinson is on the TV. And I was like, oh, I did not know that's what he looked like.

I did not, I had no idea what you looked like, but it's a very powerful, you know, sound, but there's also these people that I feel like. I know from these songs. And like, I'm curious, are these based on things? Are they real people? Like, you tell these stories. Yeah, this album is very much autobiographical. And it's been interesting revisiting it, you know.

It does feel like a diary entry to me. It feels like I made it. I wrote it when I was in my 20s. It's right before, you know, it came out right before I got together with my wife. And it's really about all. all the failed relationships that I'd been in and the frustration of trying to understand my place in the world, which is still kind of what I write about.

And by the way, was what my first song when I was eight years old was about also. It was about the song was called Why. And it was just asking the big questions of life. And but I mean, yes, there's a couple of different women that really inspired that record who I've been, you know, considering inviting out to this tour because it feels somehow appropriate.

Like there's humans out there who are like, song five. I was part of song five. Yeah, yeah. There's, there's, all the sad songs are about one person in particular.

And, and a couple of the songs are, there's, I name, I name a woman named Bernadette, who is a real person and also a character on Big Bang Theory. And I remember when I was like, oh my gosh,

there's a Bernadette in Eric Hutchinson's song. Yeah. Yeah, but this album is very much what my life looked like at the time. And, you know, yeah, I was a young man trying to figure out how to be an adult. And with a lot of, you know, self-blame and self-shame. And that's what was funny to me was writing these songs felt very, I was kind of beating up on myself on a lot of the songs. and disappointed with myself.

And it was such a shock to me when people came to me and said, this album makes me so happy. Oh, my God, I clean my house to this album. And I'm like, the song, you love the song where, like, my life is falling apart. And I've destroyed this person's life with me. And yeah, that one's great. That's, I vacuum during that one.

They're not listening to the lyrics like, I am Eric Hutchinson. No, I know, but it was an interesting mix. And, you know, the Beatles were great at that. There's a lot of people that I love that were great at mixing a melancholy, lyric with like a really peppy melody but yeah it's it's it's been interesting you know i think i said it on the show you were at but i i didn't get to enjoy 15 years ago as much as i would have liked to i was really caught up and things were happening for me and and i was just really caught up with what was coming next and where i would be next and how big i would be and and so a big

part of why i wanted to play these shows again is i wanted to actually be present on stage and and just appreciate whatever the crowd is and whoever's there. And that's been such a cool thing. And I'm sorry your kids couldn't come because that has also been a thing I hadn't really planned on, but is people that bring their kids that are like 15 years old. And they say, you know, these kids say to me, like, your album was on all the time when I was growing up. I mean, there's so much depth to.

I mean, look, as my kids, I think get older. I mean, I've been holding back tears as you've been talking about this album now because, you know, I'm. I'm one of those people who, you know, the musicians I most resonate with are people who are very deeply lyrical. I'm like an Elvis Costello person and I'm a Bob Dylan person. And like I, when you told your Beatles CD, the first time we got a CD changer, actually Mike, my, my ex-husband won it at a UCLA basketball game because he hit, he hit like a shot from like half court or something. And that was one of the moments where your life changed forever.

We had a CD changer, but it was like, we never would have bought it, but it was this CD changer, and I just put all my Elvis Costello in there. So that it was just Elvis Costello all the time, because I didn't own really many of the CDs. I love Elvis Costello, and I was really getting into his music when I was learning to play guitar. So, like, I pretty much learned how to play guitar, playing all the early Elvis Costello albums and the Beatles. and yeah, he's a giant to me. And I've really tried to model my life, my career after what he's done, which is how much he's just chased, whatever sounds interesting to him. I've always really respected that.

Well, but I wanted to, you know, especially kind of give a nod, though, to you as a lyricist because, you know, the music is one thing, and it's very, very distinctive and awesome. And as I've talked about, my favorite bridge is from one of, from all over now, which is on this album. But, you know, especially as we get later into the album, and we get to, we get to, it hasn't been long enough,

and we get to back to where I was and you've got you. And those three songs, I mean, the, the, it's, these are painful songs. And you spoke a little bit about, there's a line in this song that, until I bought the music book, I don't typically look up lyrics. Like I go with, like, I learn the lyrics and I learn them to the best of my ability.

And there was this lyric and I've thought, I can't be right. What's making you believe that the seventh time around is going to be different? And I was like, I have to be hearing this wrong. And when you talked about it at your show, I mean, I have, this relationship exists in my universe. I don't know that I've gotten to seven, but you literally spoke about a relationship that was, you kept trying at it. And that's what this song was about. Can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah, I was in a relationship with a person, and we were young and both in love,

but also I don't know that we were the best match. And she may have been in love with my best friend. And I don't know, who remembers. But we just kept trying to do. We really were like trying to play husband and wife or like kind of play grownups, I think, looking back on it all. And we just kept trying to commit to. it and I think really, you know, I don't know, I don't want to speak out of turn or whatever.

But yes, we just kept breaking up and then getting back together and thinking was going to work this time. And eventually I wrote this song and I was like, no, I can't do this anymore. And talk about like controlling the narrative and everything. I was like, this has to stop and I have to remind myself. So it was a little bit of like actuating it of like, I'm going to write this song and I'm going to sing it and that'll keep me from getting back together with it. I think I did get back together with her at least one more time after the song was written.

But that was the thing. On the inside, I actually thought it was going to work each time. And on the outside, everyone was like, you can't sleep over at her house as a friend. And it's not going to happen. But yeah, you know, it was confusing. I was always just such a romantic. I thought I was going to marry my seventh grade girl. I thought I was going to marry every single girl that it was ever my girlfriend.

Because I was like, what's the point otherwise? I was like, get married, you settle down, you make your life around it. So I think I heard a lot of people trying to do that and then freaking out. And a lot of that is what's in these songs. It's interesting. And that's one thing I have been mindful of talking about the stuff is these are actual people out there in the world. So I'm trying to be respectful of that. And that also they probably have a very different version of the stories to tell.

Right. And, but that part is true that I was, I told that story on stage. I was re-learning that song. It hasn't been long enough because I hadn't played it in a long time and I was practicing it. And I picked up my phone after practicing it. And this person that we're talking about had just followed me on Instagram, like right then, like through the ether of the world, had somehow just followed me on Instagram and we messaged a little bit.

And yeah, now we're back together. No, we didn't, but that part is true. And it was like, this, you know, and she was like, I want to come to a show soon. And I'm like, okay, maybe. We figure that out. Amazing. This is a satellite question that I'm asking on behalf of my children.

They feel like you knew that the end of You've Got You Sounds like Thriller. I did. They were right. I didn't know that. It was an homage. Yeah. Okay, they called it. Good on them for noticing.

They called it. They're like, he knows that this sounds like thriller. Anyway, okay, that was in the side. I mean, that was part of my thing, I think making this album was, like I said, I was sort of like, all right, fine, I'm just going to spend all my money and do this, and this will need this. So I really threw everything against the wall that I could and tried to cram as many of my ideas in there.

Because I really felt like, this might just be it. So I might as well just try and get as much in there. And I loved Michael Jackson. And, yeah, so it was a little bit of a. an homage there. Well, as far as I'm concerned, you never had to do anything else after this album,

but you did, and that is a wonderful thing as well. I do want to ask, before we move into the musical portion of this episode, I wanted to ask about sort of your mental health kind of journey and experience. You know, I think a lot of us

equate musicians with, you know, kind of a mercurial, you know, moody and emotional and sensitive and creative kind of type. Is that something that has been, a companion of yours? Is it something that you harness? Some of my best writing comes out of melancholy, which I also know can very easily, you know, dip into something that's not very healthy.

You know, I usually play your songs when I'm sad. But I'm curious, you know, where you kind of land as an artist in terms of your mental wellness? I think it's an exciting time in our culture, you know, that I think I'm doing a lot better than I might have if I'm. I was growing up, you know, if I was 40 years ago or something. Yeah, I've dealt with depression, really my whole life in one way or another. And yeah, I tend to be mercurial and moody and have these moments where I feel like a genius and then moments where I feel like an idiot. And that's all, you know, I've started to learn the different seasons of my life and the different parts of my process. But I think a really important part of it was starting to write about it,

even though I've been kind of writing about it on sounds like this and things, I finally made a record called Modern Happiness where I really kind of just took it on head on and was really discussing, choosing to go on Prozac and just all the different parts of the life that were feeling overwhelming to me. And I think talking about it has been really helpful. And when I was playing that album on tour and, you know, playing those songs, I would do it.

I'd raise your hand if you're on a move, enhancing drug and it was wild how many you know half the crowd and then we'd break it down to like who's on zoloft who's on and like everybody would raise their hand and and that was just really powerful to me again it was just like I really learned like when I'm depressed to go away and be quiet and avoid people and I'm still working on that of like that's when I need to reach out to people but I'm I'm lucky that I've had a way to get a lot of it out but also I got to a certain in my life where I said I don't want to write songs about being depressed anymore really because I found it to be a real self-fulfilling prophecy. It's like, I'm a depressed. So here's a

depressed song and now I'm going to go out and sing that song to strangers every night. And it really was like a real moment where I stopped. I changed the rules where I wasn't allowed to write anything negative about myself in the songs. And that's, you know, permeated the rest of my life too, I think. But I mean, by all accounts, I've had an amazing career in life. And I feel like I'm always sticking up for musicians' rights because, yeah, it's usually like people have an idea of like what a musician is, you know? It's like, I still, after all these years, don't know what to tell someone at a cocktail party when they ask like what I do. It's like, no matter what I say, I get the wrong follow-up questions, you know. If I say I'm a musician, they're like, got it. You sleep on

somebody's couch and you eat pizza for every meal. You play rock and roll music late into the night. If I say I'm a songwriter, they're like, oh, you know, they picture like a jingle writer or something. Right. But I'm all over the place with this question, but I appreciate it. I think, and that's why I was really excited to come on your podcast, because I think it's so cool that you're doing this. And there wasn't this place for it. And what I keep saying is that like, Gen X, millennials walked so that Gen Z could run. Like, you know, like Gen X and millennials started being like, hey, I'm really depressed. But I'm going to keep working, but like I'm really depressed.

And that was like a huge step. But then Gen Z is taking that and they're like, I'm depressed and I'm taking the month off. You know? And like it's kind of amazing to see the difference, right? Because like we got, we like learned how to identify it as a culture. But then the next generation is saying, and it's not okay. and I'm going to cancel, like John Mendez canceled this whole tour. Right.

Because of mental health. And I would have never had the courage to do something like that. I didn't. I was making myself miserable on tour. And I think it's pretty amazing to see where we're getting to in terms of learning to take care of yourself. And I did want to quickly go back to what you had said, because I would love tips and or ideas about what do you do at night now instead of stare at your phone. Because this is something I'm deeply invested in. It's so not exciting.

Let me, I want to ask one follow-up thing and then I want to circle back to that. So you're a dad of a young one. And, you know, being a parent obviously stretches your energy, your brain, your heart, you know, all the things. Like, what are outlets for you besides music? Like, what do you, what is Eric Hutchinson like to do? Yeah. That was actually a thing that was I spent a lot of the time struggling with was when I made music my profession, I did take away some of the release that I used to get from it.

You know, like I very rarely just sit down to play guitar just for the heck of it, like because it feels like work, unfortunately, you know? And I get to enjoy it in different ways, but like it's not, it's hard for me to enjoy performing the same way. Right. really if I'm being honest my I'm what I love to do is eat all the time I love dining I love going to a restaurant with somebody and sitting there for three hours and I I really had to admit to myself that like nothing matters more to me than that and like on vacation I'm like if I don't have a good lunch the whole day sucks I don't care what we did afterwards we went to the bottom of the grand canyon and the Eiffel Tower was down there I don't care I had like a peanut butter and just

jelly sandwich. So food really consumes me and then and then I consume food. But that is really my release in a lot of different ways. But I also, I love going to the movies, like actually going to the movies, you know, and escaping. And I've spent a lot of time. My wife and I started making vision boards the last few years. And it's been interesting. I was always kind of like, I can't, I can't get this far down the thing. But what I've really started to find is it's, it's more of like a projection for me of like this is what I think I want my life to look like and then a year later when we look at it how did I do or what actually wasn't interesting? Is it like you do it like is it a physical one is a virtual one?

You make physical vision boards. Wait, wait, I need to know about this. So wait, you like cut up magazines? No, see, that was what I always thought you had to do. But I found that limiting because then it's like my visions are only whatever mademoiselle put in their magazine, you know. It's like great. These are my options.

So I actually draw mine out and I broke it into different quadrants and things. I really was like, how do I want to live my life and what's the balance I need? And a big part of it is exercise and meditation and all of the well-being part of it. So I love doing Pilates. That's what I do to feel good. I love it. And I go to a glass nearby that's a restorative poland. Pilates class and no exaggeration.

I am 30, 40 years younger than everybody else in the class. And we all do these amazing low, low, low tension stretches and things like that. And that's my favorite thing I do. And I feel excellent afterwards. All right. Well, then I think my nighttime routine might really suit you. Yeah, here we go. It sounds like you and I are like the 75, 80-year-old demo.

Yeah, that's how I feel. My wife's always making fun of me. she's like, you want to be older. And I'm like, yeah, I kind of do feel more like myself, the older I get. Well, you know, I have had to stop using a screen to put myself to sleep. And, you know, I'll be honest, and I'm a neuroscientist, and I know a lot. I've been in therapy my whole life. But I was not really connecting, you know, a lot of my patterns with how I was putting myself

to sleep. And so I've talked, you know, openly. about disordered eating. And so for me, like, food was also the way I put myself to sleep, you know, in shifting away from, you know, there's kind of a witching hour. And if you talk to, you know, any addict or any alcoholic, like, it's that right before bedtime, you know, that's like, let me just get one more cigarette. Like, let me take one more hit.

Let me just have one more drink. Whatever it is. You know, like, that's like the God-shaped whole becomes my whole evening. So, you know, I started being more fastidious about. writing in my journal. Just like, this is what happened today. And, you know, boring myself to sleep. Honestly, you know, I did get back into like, there's so many books. I used to read voraciously. And then when my father died, I actually, something happened and I lost the ability to have attention held for books. And so I haven't really crawled my way back from that. He died eight

years ago. But I can read, you know, even a couple pages. And it's a more. You think that's, That's more about him passing unless, I mean, the internet and the phones. No, it was literally like I used to read Harper's. I used to read, you know, New Yorker. Like, I was an avid reader. And, yeah, it's not even so much that phones took its place. It was like my brain no longer wanted to process. I just like I couldn't hold.

My interest couldn't be held. It was very strange. But, you know, I have found that reading, you know, especially books about like, I've been reading Johann Hari's lost connections. You know, things that are about the exact thing that I was trying to fix with television food, you know, whatever it was. So reading something that is in the well-being space is something that I will do. In addition, getting on the floor and stretching like an old person. This is something Jonathan does. It's like a thing. And, you know, I was talking recently with two doctors about like learning what your needs are. And like, learning what your needs are.

like Jonathan will say like, I have to stretch. And I'll be like, but I don't want to hear you grunt. And he's like, but I'm going to do this now. Like, this is a priority. And I just, I'm not even in touch with my body enough to know what that's like. But I know that like my, I was having trouble with my heart rate lowering. It would not lower at night. It would do this like, you know, high.

Like, it would hold high and crash. I learned that from this ring that I wear. But what I noticed is that if I have quiet time in my body, like, even for 15 minutes before I get into bed, it's like my body knows to calm down. Like, lo and behold, I'm actually getting deeps. Like I wasn't getting deep sleep. I wasn't getting like concentrated rest. So anyway, that's my boring evenings.

And I used to stay up to like 12, 1. And I'd be like, let's play piano at 10.30 and make some pasta. Like that was literally a thing. And, you know, I've had to start saying to people, I cannot meet you that late. And I feel embarrassed. And honestly, I was white knuckling it for so long being like, I can do it because that's when people go out. And like I just, I can't do it anymore. I go to bed before my kids, you know, oftentimes.

And I say like to be in, the time you like to be in bed. I don't like to be in bed then. But like I have to be in bed by like 9.930. And then I go to bed by like 10. And it's funny because, you know, like now the app on my phone is like, it's approaching bedtime. And I'm like, but I'm still eating dinner. Like I'm trying to figure it out. But like I've become a real Alta Cocker.

Anyway, that's my exciting nighttime routine. And I also do like puzzles and Mahjong and Remy Q. So I'm, you know, Pilates is next. I don't want you to learn Mahjong. I feel like Mahjong is my next step. I feel like a club might be happening for us. Yeah. I think that stuff's really important.

And I'm really like, I'm sort of getting to be like a joke with my friends because I'm talking about this stuff all the time because I do recognize how addicted I am to my phone. And also I've read something about how like if you watch. TV right before bed. You pretty much just, you have your own problems. Then now you're filling your head with everyone else's problem. Fictional or real. And many people are like, it's fine. I'm fine. But once I started actually learning more about sleep and looking at those metrics, I was like, no, my brain is too act. It's too activating. You know, like you can't watch succession and then hope to sleep well. Yeah, but it's so good. Eric, Eric Hutchinson, it has been such a pleasure to

talk to you and get to know you more. Thank you so, so much. Thank you. And tell us your, tell us your, Tell us your socials and where people can find you. And obviously, if people don't listen to sounds like this, I'm going to be very upset. But tell people where to find all things, Eric Hutchinson. Yeah. I don't know. Instagram, Eric Hutchinson, my website, Eric Hutchinson.com.

And I'm doing this tour for the rest of the year. So there's definitely shows still happening. And yeah, check out the music. I would be happy to have you listen to it. It's just my life's work. So have a quick listen. and see if you like any of it. Awesome.

Thank you so much for being here. Thank you. Why don't you play something just to see if, like, if me playing will completely mess something up? It's all over now. It's all over loud. Yeah. Is no longer fun at all?

Like, can you even hear what I'm playing or no? I could hear you. I'm going to do what I usually do with my band. It's just pretty much. pretend you're not there and I'm just going to play whatever I need to play. I'll just be your backup piano. You have the chords up for this one? I've got the whole thing.

So it'll take me a second to turn pages. Yep. All right. Let me know if we gotta stop. Okay. I mean, it's a little fast, but I'm gonna do it. I got it. Should we do it slower?

Nope. Whatever you want. You're the box. Here we go. Yep. All over now. One, two, one, two, three, four. Call me crazy.

if you got it in you but these people don't seem to mind they're telling me the truth little stubbornness or work I'll find bottom feet are at the end of my roll but I'm wondering where this road began I circle around when I couldn't help bring down it's just supply with demand nothing looks the same ooh even when there's been no change rule Say that something's gonna give and it's all giving out on you When it's all over now It's no longer fun and it's all been overdone

So it's a piano solo A large pickup truck with a little cargo towed Gets from bakers to the laundromat These daily fights all start to sound Like, guess I'm gonna have to live with that Short change sounds getting even harder do I have to identify Do I identify the repetition? Short change.

I was getting even harder. Do I identify the repetition? Oh, no, no. Ooh, nothing looks the same. And no change, ooh. Say that something's going to give and it's all given out on you. It's no longer fun and it's all over done,

so it's all over now. And if you came here, To tell me that you're sorry can cause. Should we back up? Yes! Let's back it up. Ironically, we're falling out at the bridge. I know, it's so...

Do the top of the bridge? I'm ready. How many pages does it go over? So many pages. Yeah. I'm ready. Got it. Got it.

You came here to tell me that you're sorry for the pain. Save your breath. It's all over. It's all over done so it's all over now So it's all over done so it's all over now Maya Biala everybody She's gonna break it down for you She's got a neuroscience PhD or