Mayim Bialik's Breakdown - Evanna Lynch: Take Up Space

Episode Date: May 10, 2022

Evanna Lynch (Harry Potter franchise, author of The Opposite of Butterfly Hunting) discusses the existential nature of mental health struggles and disordered eating. She opens up about being a sensitive child, her history of anorexia at an early age, and her journey through recovery. Evanna explains the reasons she found it difficult to seek treatment, what the entertainment industry told her was wrong with her, and the ways she was able to overcome the fear of taking up space. She and Mayim discuss society’s examination of women and identity struggles and regimens for wellness after recovery. They break down forms of holistic healing, from plant therapy and intention setting to astrology and moon ceremonies. Evanna Lynch's Book: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/677563/the-opposite-of-butterfly-hunting-by-evanna-lynch/ BialikBreakdown.com YouTube.com/mayimbialik Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The thing about eating disorders is they numb every other impulse because they consume you. And when you're just focused on kind of reducing your body and your habits and your lifestyle to numbers, you can't think about anything else. You certainly can't think of anything creative. It was around 10-11 that I was like, wow, I don't think I'm going to figure this whole womanhood adult thing out. So I'm just do this instead. Hi, I'm Biolic and welcome to my breakdown. This is the place where we break things down.

So you don't have to. Before we introduce our next Breakdown She's going to break it down for you Because you know she knows a thing or two Before we introduce Our very special guest Who

You may know From a little series of movies called Harry Potter I don't know all the titles But the series of movies Called Harry Potter We're going to be welcoming Ivana Lynch

But first I'd like to be like to introduce my favorite retrieved soul, Jonathan Cohen. Oh, hello, ma'am. That's a good intro. Also, there were some books I heard before the movies. Oh, there were Harry Potter books, but you will recognize her from the film franchise. That's true. How are you doing? Pretty good. Let's just leave it at that. Evanna Lynch is an actress. She's a podcaster. She's also a vegan activist. Her professional career began at 14. she played the role of Luna Lovegood in the Harry Potter film series,

and she did that from the time she was 14 to 19. Since then, she's continued to act on screen and stage. In 2018, she competed in and placed third in Dancing with the Stars, season 27, which is really cool. And in 2017, inspired by the dozens of letters and questions that she got from fans about her vegan lifestyle, she launched a really cool weekly vegan podcast, The Chick Peeps. Great name.

Also, she co-founded, along with, Danielle Monnet, the vegan and cruelty-free makeup and beauty care box, kinder beauty box, which I actually didn't know was hers. Like, I've gotten it before and didn't know. She puts ethical brands in the spotlight. She wrote this really beautiful book called The Opposite of Butterfly Hunting, The Tragedy and Glory of Growing Up, a memoir. And she talks about her experience with anorexia, which began when she was very young, like before the time when we started seeing her on the big screen. She's a very, very talented writer. It's a book that's gotten a lot of attention, not just for its content, but for the way that she writes.

There's so much that she's going to talk about with us today that kind of makes the book even richer to consider and read. And also, if you like shamans, wait till the end of the episode. We get there. We go deep. We talk about moons, shamans, ceremonies. Maybe you know what plant medicine is. Keep listening. Let's welcome Ivana Lynch. Break it down. Ivana, welcome. I've been to Ireland.

I've not been to Dublin, which is where most people go. I was in the ring of Killarney. I went to Cork. But they say Cork. Yes, like near Dingle, which is just fun to say. It's beautiful. And I drove kind of that whole region of the country. It is stunning. I mean, it's a stunning, stunning country.

That was my experience with Ireland. like to go back and see all the literary sites and, you know, all the, the Frank McCourt tour is what I want, really. It's very beautiful. People are very friendly. There's no, they don't really understand boundaries as much over there. Everyone just, like my dad considers it very rude. If you walk past a person on the street in London and they don't say, hello, you know, that's just their mentality. But as a child teenager growing up there, you know, you don't, you don't want to see scenery. That's not the exciting thing. You don't even notice scenery. and friendliness and all that.

But it's definitely that old cliche of having moved away, I appreciate it. In a great tradition of Irish literature, you have written a beautiful book and not only is the information in it, really it's touching, it's moving. A lot of people describe your book as gripping. But your use of language is really what struck me

and what strikes a lot of people is not only the content of your story but the way that you've chosen to express it. Oh, thank you. I can't believe you read it. That's so kind. Oh, well, I started it and then left it in my Jeopardy dressing room. So the truth is, I know,

the truth is I did not read all of it, but... And right now it's in Ken Jennings' hands. But I did want to ask a little bit about sort of your experience as an artist in general because many know you as an actress. Were you raised a generally artistically inclined child? Were you a writer in your youth? Did you more gravitate towards performing arts?

Tell us a little bit about your artistic childhood, as it were. Yeah. So I grew up in a family of teachers, you know, house of books, very, very, just bookish people, really trusted books. And that was a worthy thing to do with your time. But I don't think it was, you know, the arts were. so they were valued and cultivated. That's all we did. Red stories, tell stories, a lot of play.

My family was very crafty as well. But it wasn't really respected as a job or as a potential career path. And as I say, they're quite shy people. My family are all introverts. So when I started to express an interest in acting, just because it looked so much fun, I think they thought that was, you know, very much a fantasy. But I'm always really grateful for the fact that I was raised on stories and words were valued

so much. And the arts were valued. They just, I suppose there was this sense of, you know, that's for people who are lucky and they don't need to get a real job. And there is also that old Irish mentality that your life should be about suffering. You shouldn't get to enjoy your job. Like, there's sort of a, if you spend enough time there, you'll notice it. And I believe it comes from the strong religious influence about rules and that were sinners and blah, blah, blah.

So I think when I started to, yeah, to really say, I'd love to do acting or I'd love to be performing. It was just like, nobody gets it that good. That sounds like too much fun. That's what children do. It took a, well, it took a role in Harry Potter to convince me. them that, cool, this can be a job. We showed them, didn't we? Yeah, yeah.

Just a small role in a major franchise. Just that. You have siblings? I do. I have three siblings. And what's your birth order? Two older sisters and a younger brother. Wow, so you're the middle child, as it were. Yeah, middle child.

But I think because I'm the youngest girl, I often, it doesn't really, I think my older sister, she's the real middle child. Got it. Yeah. And what did your parents teach? Well, my dad is retired now. but he taught, he was a vice principal and he taught history in Irish. And then my mom is still teaching.

She teaches kids with learning difficulties, like kids with autism or handicapped children, or actually just children who have just, I don't know, issues with being in a classroom and are too sensitive for that kind of environment. Also, lest people accuse us of Ireland bashing. You know, that notion of suffering, well, accuse me. They wouldn't accuse you because you're Irish, you can see. say whatever you want. But the notion that any culture, you know, but in particular, let's say, for example, Irish culture is associated with suffering. Absolutely. It's the religious structure.

It's the political structure. It's the conflict, you know, from that region for centuries and centuries. And also things like climate influence a culture. They influence the way we speak, the way we socialize, the way we spend our time. And, you know, I wasn't kidding. My parents were English teachers and Irish poetry, Irish literature, that was the height of artistic ecstasy. Was that kind of, I mean, on my father's gravestone is a James Joyce quote. They revere those writers so much like James Joyce that I'm so terrified to read Ulysses. Like, they're just such a reverence around those works of literature. But I think it's also interesting as well.

The amount of very well-known Irish writers who had to move away from Ireland, who had to get away from that climate, to actually, you know, pursue. their craft like James Joyce and there was so much sorrow in his work for what he left behind and his father and his relationship was father but it was like it was too close to being around that he wouldn't have been able to pursue something so I guess far-fetched and abstract which his art was it's not unrelated to how I was sort of thinking about even the the subtitle I guess I don't know if that's what it's called so your book is the opposite of butterfly hunting the tragedy and the glory of growing up a memoir even in that title, you know, you get a little bit of a window into sort of the process that you, not only that

you went through, but that you chose to pen, you know, you chose to put it down this way for a very specific reason. One of the things that you do talk about with a tremendous amount of, you know, a lot of people don't like when I use this word, bravery. It's brave to share ways that you've struggled, especially when they're not pretty. And, you know, you've chosen to share about a history of anorexia, which, you know, for you took you in and out of hospitals. You had a very, very significant clinical experience, you know, also with being sort of treated and examined and, you know, and you also have placed a large emphasis on kind of that examination of women in particular and our bodies and what we take in and what we restrict and what we hold and what

we choose to keep from others. So what was your perception as a young person of sort of your place in society or in your body, when did you have that kind of awareness that you think might have then led to this eating disorder that you ended up developing? Oh, yeah, that's hard to know where to start. And that was the struggle with the book as well because it's like you could go all the way back. My therapist actually, my psychotherapist who was mentioned throughout the book, Natasha, she believes that eating disorders take root at least six years before they begin to sort of

have visible symptoms. So, you know, and I remember she said that to me after I'd finished the book and it made me go back and think, you know, yeah, just deeper things. Why do you latch on to food? You know, in the same way, why do some people latch on to alcohol to self-suit? Why do some people latch on to other people? It's, I don't know why, but for me, it became food. I guess it just, I found some moments and they are in the book of being a child and realizing, oh, I have to find something that gives me a reason to be here, that gives me a reason to take up space. I don't know. Which I don't believe at all, you know, and that's the journey of the book, and that's been my journey to just be like, I can just exist. I can take up all the space

and I don't have to have a reason. We don't have to sort of commodify everything. I've had conversations with my dad since where he really believes shame is a good thing. He believes it stops people, people from doing bad things. And I see it as the opposite because I think I was completely ruled by shame. I think I was ashamed to be a body, ashamed to be a person, ashamed of just, I really just thought the human body was disgusting and repulsive. And that I should do everything to try and hide all those embarrassing things, which included, you know, eating, going to the toilet, your flesh on your body.

I really got this idea that in order to justify existing, I had to try and perfect it. And how old were you when this sort of started? Around 10 or 11. That's when I started to kind of say, oh, wow, nobody's going to do this for me. I'm not going to, like I would, you know, I admired women. I loved them, but I didn't see myself turning into one. I felt very awkward. I felt like this weird, strange sort of extraneous person.

Like, what was I going to do? And what, what, that was going to make me special or, or make me, yeah, it was a really existential struggle. And I do. I think most eating disorders and most mental health problems are condemned to being existential. It was just this sense of, yeah, what can I do to deserve to take up space? And I, I didn't think I could.

And so this was something that was very distracting. It was like, the thing about eating disorders is they numb every other impulse. they consume you. And when you're just focused on kind of reducing your body and your habits and your lifestyle to numbers, you can't think about anything else. You certainly can't think of anything creative. So yeah, it was around 10-11 that I was like, wow, I don't think I'm going to figure this whole womanhood adult thing out. So I'll just do this instead. My MBialx breakdown is supported by Superpower. We all know the feeling of leaving a doctor's office and kind of feeling like we didn't get anything out of the experience that was useful.

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Use the code break at checkout for $20 off your membership. And after you sign up, they'll ask how you heard about them. Make sure to mention my ambiotics breakdown to help support the show. Sort of part of the complexity, especially with anorexia, anorexia nervosa, for a lot of people, the perfection, you know, is seen as kind of not changing, right? And keeping the body a very specific way that, you know, is obviously subjective. But for the person experiencing it, there's a specific,

You know, for some people, it is a number. For some people, it's a certain size, you know, of clothing. But what I think is really poignant about the way you choose to speak about it is for you, it's also associated with leaving childhood and entering adulthood, which obviously we have a physical representation of that. You know, we go through puberty, you know, boys and girls, right? We go through puberty. But there's something about, you know, this kind of transition that you're talking about that goes beyond, I want to be skinny, right? Or what a lot of people think of when they think of anorexia,

right? Like, I want to look good in this dress. Like for you, like you said, this was more of an existential thing. Can you speak a little bit about, did you have an emotional kind of attachment meaning to, did you have an emotional attachment to not wanting to get older? And like, were there things that were so comfortable in childhood separate from your body image and your weight that you wanted to try and preserve? Yeah, absolutely. I just wanted, I kind of wanted to be invisible. I wanted just to be left alone and to be innocent. And everything I saw about womanhood and growing up was about being seen, taking up space, making mistakes, being criticized by people, I suppose.

I just didn't want to be in the way at all. I think I was just a very sensitive child. And any criticism or any time being seen, it was just like too much. And that's the thing with puberty and with growing up. It's like your life becomes less tidy. You're not this innocent, sweet little girl. And I was really terrified of leaving that innocence and having to take responsibility and be seen. It just sounded like a horror story to me.

And it was just like, I never asked for this. So I'll just stay this way. And that was the hard thing about, you know, seeing it as a problem, seeing it as seeking treatment. Because I really just felt like I'm handling this fine. Everyone just leave me alone. I don't feel this pain and this fear that I was feeling. before I found this thing that sort of numbed me. So yeah, it was absolutely, it was all to do with, yeah, not wanting to take up space in

every sense of the word, you know, like literal, but also emotionally. Like, I just wanted to be invisible to kind of fade away and not have to deal with the world. Were there things in particular that I don't want to say scared you because I don't want to put fear on it if it wasn't fear-based specifically, but, you know, for some people, they have, you know, they feel trepidacious about, for example, having to eventually get a job or having to be in a relationship or needing to leave home. Like, was there something in particular that you kind of focused on or was it just kind of like everything in general? I think there was a few things. My mother's love. Like my mother was just the absolute center

of my world and in a way still is, you know, that's a scary thought that one day that won't be there because it just feels so certain. And I think I started to realize, oh, there's never going to be anybody who will love me as much as this. And that's really scary if that's the thing that keeps you rooted. So there was that. And then I also, I suppose I started to have these dreams. And they were big dreams, you know, about acting and other,

which it feels like such a contrast to... Oh, to choose a profession that is literally all about. out rejection and criticism. Exactly, exactly. But I think other people might say, well, why would you do that, you know? You could have done anything. You could have spared yourself all that pain. But so I think I start to just feel so not good enough for these big dreams I had. And just this fear that like, I'm going to go out there and try all this and nothing I ever do will be enough. And that's still sort of a wound point for me. That's something I have to watch where if I go for an audition and I don't get it. Sometimes it can feel like the world is ending and it's that whole,

oh no, you've proven it true again. You've proven that thought, that story true, that you're still not good enough for this. So yeah, that was one of the big fears of growing up of and I think finding something to distract me from all that was a relief because it was just like, well, I won't fail at this thing. It might, you know, sort of undo me. It might destroy me, but I won't fail at it. And I think it's also important to point out you said, you know, you kind of said in passing. You said I was a very sensitive child. And I'm not going to get up into your siblings business, but I will say that you can have 10 sisters in one family and each of them will have a different experience, meaning, you know, a lot of people would say like, well, what was going on

in her house? But it's not that simple. Meaning some of us come out, I'm one of them, some of us come out of the womb with a very special six, seventh, eighth, ninth, and tenth sense to perceive things that sometimes aren't there or to perceive things that other people don't perceive. There's all this variability, you know. I was a child who I've talked about here at 10. That was like the first birthday I started crying on. I cry every birthday. And it was just mortality.

It was just like, why is no one understanding that this is not a happy day, you know? Yeah. But you could take, you know, your sisters may not have had those feelings or your brother. You know, it's completely about your individual chemistry, your genetics, and the way you interact in the time you were born into your family. It's so variable. So I just wanted to say that also. That's so true.

And that's something I always wanted to stress in the book because a lot of the time with previous memoirs or stories I've read of people with eating disorders, they kind of pin it all on a triggering event, a big traumatizing event. And I always felt like such a fraud because I was like, I don't have one of those. I had a great childhood. I was so loved. I was given everything I really needed. And yet, I still did not want to be alive, you know. And a big part of recovery was just accepting that and just accepting, I feel too much, you know, I feel, I feel a lot. I feel a lot, right. Yeah, yeah. I found places for all those feelings now, find outlets, healthier outlets. But yeah, I think you have to just, that's a very important point

that you make and um you know there's things you like our brains are us we're fascinating we're always going to be learning about ourselves and what what it is like um there's a podcaster i listen to i love him he's brilliant and by the way as i'm talking to my accent is going less irish so if you want someone with a genuine irish accent listen to um blind boy podcast it is brilliant he's very he's very just funny and smart and but anyway last um last week on the podcast he just discovered he's he's on the spectrum. He literally just found out he's neurodivergent and did a whole podcast about that

and he was making sense of all these things in his childhood. And, you know, he's gone through his life not knowing this about himself, not knowing why he would cry so much when little things happened that other people weren't affected by. So, yeah, it's a process. I don't think there's any point in judging ourselves for how we feel.

We just have to accept them and honor them, I think, and then find ways to make ourselves feel okay. Your disease was very active in actually right around the time that you auditioned for Harry Potter. Is that right? Not entirely. So, yeah, it sort of started around the age of 10, 11. And then it was 11, 12, those two years was when it was as in physically visible. Right, right.

physically, medically serious, and that's when I was in and out of hospitals and everything. Got it. But it's always a point I want, I always try to make because this story has been, and that's honestly why I wrote the book, because it's been sensationalized so many times ever since I started speaking about it. There was this impression that I went straight from, you know, the medical, from rehab to the Harry Potter sets. And your dreams can just happen just like that.

I always, it's so important to show people that. There were like two years between finishing the treatment center and being physically recovered, but, you know, and between that and getting the part in Harry Potter. Because, and they were crucial. Those, I don't think I could, I don't think I would have been well enough. I don't think I could have focused on the job if I hadn't committed to it. But I just really, I don't like the implication that you can kind of incentivize recovery and you can say, no, absolutely.

You know, oh, here's your little dream. Come and get it. And then you'll, you know, you'll feel better. So, um, well, that's, yeah, that's sort of a something I get very, very, um, nervous about when I hear people say, you know, like, here was the quick and easy solution or like, I got into therapy and then everything was amazing. Or I found the perfect guy and then nothing bothered me ever again. Or, you know, even with recovery. You know, I worked the steps and now I'm fine. It's a, it's a constantly evolving process. But I'm also thinking of how, how young you still were, um, with, you know, kind of already so much

recovery with you. What was your kind, is that a cat? Yes. Did you give it a lion cut? I love that. Is that a cat? We need to. We're going in. Everything needs to stop. This is puff. And she has her summer haircut. Yeah, that is her summer haircut. I want to touch that cat. She does feel like velvet. She's. Wait, can I see the tail? I'm sorry. Yes, yes, of course. Yeah. Is that a Persian? Yeah, yeah. She, so she's normally like three times. Yes, I can. this size, so fluffy. But it's just gotten so hot in London here the last few weeks, so we had to do it. Yeah. I mean, sorry, that's a showstopper cat right there with that haircut. So I was saying you, you already had kind of so much recovery when you then embarked on this very public, you know,

and incredible kind of, you know, media journey. What was your regimen for wellness at that time? Like, were you in therapy, you know, you obviously were at a healthy weight. You know, how did you kind of maintain that, especially with all the stress and just excitement, you know, going on. Because those are times when a lot of our eating disorders will, they'll come back when things are really good. They'll come back when things are not so good. You know, it's a constant struggle. No, and I think you're right to make the point that, like, I was physically recovered, but, and it's only something I realized in recent years, oh, I did still, I still had an eating disorder. Because if you don't, if you don't subscribe to that thought, then you're saying, oh, eating disorders are only valid or their

only treatable when we physically can see them. And by then, you know, that person has been suffering for a long time. So no, it's true to say I was definitely still dealing with it. And it's, I mean, it really, it's a big identity struggle in the, in the aftermath of recovery because you've spent so long identifying yourself as a certain size or as a certain lifestyle. And then suddenly you're just a quote unquote normal person. So I was dealing with that. And I know a lot of people have said to me like, well, didn't it, you know, being thrust in front of a camera? Didn't that sort of trigger this whole self-criticism? But I actually feel like I'd done so much work. I was my biggest bully. Like, it didn't matter what anyone said online. And luckily, the online world

wasn't as active back then, but there were forums and things. And I know when anything said was as bad. So I could never be as her as, as what my eating disorder really had to. done to me. So in a way, I was sort of primed for this industry. I was prepared. But in terms of wellness, yes, I had a therapist, this therapist, and she's in the book, Natasha, she's a very alternative person. She's an existential psychologist, but she's now gone in a very alternative of direction with she's doing all these plant medicine, all these, well, retreats doing plant medicine. You're in a safe place.

Yeah. Okay, okay. I figured. I've listened to your podcast. But, yeah, she doesn't even believe in talking therapy anymore. It's really interesting. She's somebody who'd be interesting to talk to. Jonathan would love non-talking therapy.

He can check it off his box without having to talk. Yeah. Well, I think this is just an interesting segue to go down because Ma'am and I were having this conversation yesterday. I believe in talk therapy and also I believe that you can intellectualize yourself so far down a path that your body is not with you. Yes. There's a lack of embodiment to whatever the intellect has justified or understood about whatever situation they have. The experience of the body is that it's terrified.

It's in whatever issue it has. And it hasn't metabolized it. And so it has a programming, a way of operating a frequency. And then the mind is over here being like, but I know what the issue is. And I've understood this and they've intellectualized it. And if those two things don't merge together and move forward together, then your body is going to have that reaction. It would make sense to me that someone who had done a lot of talk therapy and brought patients and clients through talk therapy may be like, well, what if I start working from the body to, the mind and to the emotions that way.

I think her experience, not to speak for her, but from what I've heard, is that she said, you get there so much quicker. Like, people can spend years talking and you can convince yourselves of these stories, you know, and then you go do ayahuasca and you have a crazy experience

where you, I don't know. Understand the universe in a way you never thought you could. You understand the universe, exactly, yeah. And then, or, or, you find out something very traumatic from your past that you didn't realize was actually so upsetting and then you confront it and you work through. And she, her philosophy is like, why would you spend decades talking about it when you could just go right in there? But I'm speaking to somebody who was actually not done these plant medicines. I actually still really like talking

therapy. I like words. So, yeah. But anyway, back then, to answer your question, I was just, I was seeing her. I was talking to her every week. Really. just working through things and I think it's really important that people with things like this and when you put it in a book people want to hear the beginning middle end and that's the hard thing with these books and that's what's hard to write the memory is like it doesn't have an end yet the end is the rest of my life really but people want to say you're recovered and that's it and now you're thriving and you have had this meteoric rise and success and that's great and I guess I I really found that I had this great big thing happen after Harry Potter and acting and all that,

but still was dealing with my problems. So, yeah, I think it's so important that people know you don't just get the therapy in the emergency situation. That's just putting out the fires. That's just the band-aid. And then you take it off and you have to go deep to the wounding. So what ages was your Harry Potter stretch? 14 to 19 Wow

Those were the same years I was on television when I was that age Oh really? Television's different Yes I was on a show from 14 to 19 Yeah I started being on television Two years before you were born

You know like it was a long time ago There was no internet We didn't have home computers Like there were no phones So you know I looked like a 14 year old When I started I mean I looked I mean people are like

Oh you look so young No just There was a variety of what girls were allowed to look like and you didn't have to have hair extensions and, you know, nails and a ton of mail. Like, I barely wore makeup, you know, on TV that whole first year. Do you feel like you missed out by being, you know, already in a working professional environment? I mean, I know I did, you know, I had access to a world of adults that other 14 year olds and 15 year olds did not. So I gained a tremendous amount of knowledge about the business world and how to please people

and what happens when you state your needs and other people don't like them? And I learned a lot about people wanting to take advantage of you for their own financial gain. Like I learned all sorts of things. I also learned a tremendous amount about interpersonal relations, about performance as a bridge to understanding humans. I was a very observant actor. So, you know, I learned a lot about, I don't want to say the craft, but more about production and how things, you know, come together. but yeah, I missed out on a tremendous amount of normalcy. I wasn't an anonymous person, you know, which is a gift that most 14-year-olds, you know,

let's say have. And it's very hard to talk about and I'm sure, well, I think you've done it with a lot more elegance than I would have known how to. Nobody wants to, well, but nobody wants to hear like, my life was so hard, you know. But the fact is, like, there's a lot in my experience before I even got to television, as you've spoken about in your life, that, no one knows about, well, we talk about it on the podcast, but there was a whole life to me. And people are like, oh, when you got on television, is that when you like really started having your

problems? Like, no, I had problems from like the generations of people in my family have had problems. Exactly. Carrying all that. Like, yeah, it wasn't the industry that did that to me. But, you know, when people remark, like, oh, you hold yourself so well, you're so articulate. It's like, yeah, I've been in meetings since I'm 13 years old. Yeah. Were you, able to have a little bit of a normal life. Obviously, you were extremely recognizable, but like because you weren't working necessarily those nine months, like a television show, in between movies as a child, were you able to sort of fall back into somewhat of a normal routine? Definitely. Yeah, I went back to my on cool part of the classroom. Just read books in the corner. Yeah, no, definitely. And I think back

then, it actually wasn't more innocent time, even though it was not that long ago. You know, no social media, we weren't really, we knew, obviously, that Harry Potter was this huge global phenomenon because the movies would come out every summer and we'd see ourselves on buses and we'd go to the premiere and that's where we meet people. But the rest of the time, it wasn't like every day you're engaging with followers or people telling you, just weird things about yourself. So, and I think they deliberately protected us from that. The producers kept it like, even after everyone turned 16 and didn't legally have to be, tutored. They made space for schooling and just they kept these like the hours for working,

you know, child actors mostly as far as I know. Um, so yeah, it was okay. You know, like, as I say, it was a more innocent time. And I think sometimes I, I look at the young actors today who get these big shows and I'm like, damn, they're so savvy. They're so like they have, they're so autonomous and they're already using the word career and they have a website and business cards. And I sort of envy that, but they miss their innocence, you know? Well, and I think especially for women that's highlighted, you know, when a lot of the pressures of our culture, you know, Western culture in particular, there's a lot of, you know, manipulation. I don't mean that necessarily in a derogatory way, but there's a lot of manipulation of females,

meaning there's, you know, and I know men also wear shapewear, men also dye their hair. But historically speaking, in our culture, it's a lot of like women doing this and women doing that and change your hair, change your lashes, change your brows. You know, like, it's a lot of emphasis on the things that, you know, when I see 14-year-olds now, they look like they look like I did when I was 18, you know, and even then I was, you know, not ready to really own my body, my presence, wear extensions. Like, you could barely get me to, like, not wear a baseball hat, you know, for most of my teen years. I want to ask you two things that are not related.

So I'll ask the first one and then please know that it's not related to the second thing. Yeah. You did date a fellow actor, correct? Yes, you did. Yeah. And what was that like also? Because I just know from the years that, you know, the years of 14 to 19 are those years where you're typically experiencing, you know, either like romance or crushes. And to do that when also you have a different identity is just, it's very, very strange.

But I'm just wondering kind of if you have any, you know, thoughts, especially as you're like transitioning to being a woman, you know, which was this thing that you had obviously been thinking about since you were. so young, was having a relationship like that? Was it helpful for, you know, kind of your growth? Like, what was that like, especially as a public person? So I didn't have, I wasn't dating this actor, who is now a friend. I wasn't dating him back when I was 14. We started dating maybe when I was 20, 21. Okay, got it. So it was after. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think because we worked on the same film, people just to meet him. But I actually didn't meet him all of that time. Um, but I mean, dating an actor is one thing because it's like, oh, I don't know, you're,

they're constantly kind of in competition a little bit and trying to outdo each other. Even if you're not up for the same roles, it's, it's hard. Um, but there is an understanding. Yeah, I think my relationships definitely, you know, back then they, they gave me confidence. But I think like I was still struggling for all of my teen years, struggling with my body image. And it, I don't believe that, you know, that. kind of old saying that very much has been torn apart and rightfully so by our generation of saying, oh, you can't be loved until you love yourself. But I think you can be loved to the level

that you let it in. And I didn't love my body, didn't like it at all. So it was very hard to kind of respect people who respect guys I was dating who were trying to love me in that way. But at the same time, you know, they did give me confidence. Dating people, who were nice and who tried to compliment me. It made me feel like, oh, maybe there's a different perspective. Maybe all these dark, mean thoughts are not the true ones, and maybe the other nice perspective can also be true. But I do also feel like, you know, wherever you're at in your life,

the person you're dating is a reflection of you. And the more you work on yourself, the more you are just evolving and becoming kinder to yourself, becoming the kind of person you really respect, the more you'll see that in your partner too. So, yeah, in my early teen years, my early relationships, there was definitely more of a darkness to them

because we were usually people who, yeah, didn't feel comfortable with ourselves. No, that's very helpful. There's a quote that, you know, is I'd say one of the quotes most associated, at least, you know, sort of in some of the research that I did with you, this notion of being kind of addicted to people who make you feel bad.

And this is separate from a dating conversation. That's why I felt awkward that these two questions came up next to each other because this can be true and it can have nothing to do with dating or partnership. Can you talk a little bit about sort of what phase of your life and kind of what that looked like having that realization and I guess what you did with that information? Yes. Again, it's about your inner voice.

When your inner voice is very negative, you'll resonate with people who mirror that negativity because you kind of feel like anything else, any nice things is just BS. You think that person's lying, obviously. The true thing is the mean thing. So it was actually probably, so I spent like five years in L.A. in Hollywood,

really going for it as an actor, really going for everything I could, trying to get everything. And having this sense of, what's wrong with me? Why am I not getting these? So, and so anytime somebody would tell me something that was wrong with me, I'd be attracted to them because I'd be like, you have the answers. You'll help me. And the thing about, you know, there are a lot of manipulative characters.

In my experience, a lot of manipulative men who will sort of, there's studies into it as well, like narcissists, maybe not just men, just narcissistic people where they'll, you know, sort of feed you love. they'll get you kind of hooked on them and then when you're hooked then they will just sort of turn and just just yeah fill your mind

with all the dark thoughts but because you think oh they love you they love me so they're saying this out of love and they're doing it to try and improve me and things like you know pursuing dreams it's a difficult it's like nuanced isn't it it's like you'll you want to do everything for your dreams

but you also don't want to self-destruct So that balance was hard for me And I think I definitely fell into that trap in L.A. of people pleasing. You know, not going into the room as an artist saying, I have a voice, I have an opinion, and they're valid and interesting. I went in there going, I want you to like me.

What can I do? Let me contort myself and turn myself inside. And I think L.A., like, it's a place. Obviously, I've seen the great side of it. I met many, I kind of found myself there. met many amazing creative people, but I also found the side of... It's a meat grinder for your soul. Yeah.

And like there's so many people willing to offer you opinions on what's wrong with you and to charge you for it. And as I say, like, that to me was an addiction. It was like, these people will give me the answers and then I'll be fixed and then I'll be worthy. And you'll never get to the end of that. What were the things that you were told were wrong with you? You could be as specific or general as you'd like. Oh, my voice is a big one. Just always being told that it sounds.

too apologetic or to like a little girl or just too high. So I spent, and the thing is I kind of can see that. I can still see that. Like, oh, maybe if I had a stronger, more commanding voice, maybe I would. There is that voice that goes, would I be more successful? Would people believe me more as an adult? But I spent thousands of pounds trying to work on my voice and speak in the slow register. Really?

Yeah, yeah. So that you could sound like me. Yeah, something like. Yeah, yeah. To the untrained listener, is that like going into voice sessions and like learning how to drop the register? Like what does that entail? Yes. And learning.

And by the way, I actually really liked my voice teacher. That was a tricky thing. Like this was a kind person who thought she, I think she thought she was doing good. And it was helpful to like hear myself indifferent. But the fact of the matter was just like, oh, I just, it's going to take so much work. And it would be an obsession to try and change it. And did I need to? Since Jonathan has never been to a voice teacher,

it's basically, I mean, it's a psychology of where you place your voice. Yes. And I had vocal cord surgery. And so I had to obviously go to a, you know, a speech pathologist, neuro, blah, blah, blah. But they talk a lot about, you know, the volume you use, the way that you use it, where you place it, where your tongue is, where your breath is. It's a huge psychological process of even doing that kind of work on. your voice. And my voice teacher would get me to record myself at different times of the day and

center. Like in the morning, it would be much like lower and more relaxed. And I started doing this thing like recording myself in the morning, recording myself later and trying to get back to what that was. And also like humming. I would just, everywhere I'd go, I'd be humming. You hum and then you go into conversation because then your voice is in a lower register. Yeah. Yeah. So before meetings with people, I would just be in my car, hello, you know, trying to get into that register. Yeah. Okay, so your voice, what else?

The thing was I kind of did a lot of things without being told, so I did fix my teeth. Like, I... You have lovely teeth. Yeah. Thank you. I don't know, like sugar and things like that. I would, being in Hollywood, seen, you know,

I remember one friend just being appalled that I didn't have a manicure, and I was like, what? Sorry, you get them. every two weeks here. And just like, so, no, I didn't have people telling me. I didn't have that kind of douchebag manager. Oh, no, I've got a wonderful team who are very protective of me. But I think being in a place where it's possible to change literally everything about

yourself and it's sort of encouraged as like, how much do you want your dream? Yeah, I was like, cool, whatever anyone's doing, I'll do it. Well, and for so many people that can lead specifically to body stuff, especially for women. just in terms of kind of like the workout regimen that we're encouraged to do. And plastic surgery, which is, it's ubiquitous. I think all of that was really helpful being around that environment where that was like, self-improvement was aggressively encouraged and pursued. I think it got me to a breaking point of being like, no, screw this.

I kind of like my weird high voice. I'm comfortable with it, you know. I'm fine. And another big thing was I was always told like, oh, you're going to have to. you know, trash the Harry Potter image or just like get away from it and going to have to reinvent yourself. And again, it was like, I really like Harry Potter. I really like, then I love good. It's just like, I like having Blondeer. All these things that was just like, that's change everything. That's often suggested that you do a racy photo shoot is usually something

that you're advised to do, not you, but that. I do them all the time. To break away from that image. And also with the way our cultural has shifted, there's so much now kind of like middle ground of Racy, meaning it used to be like, oh, she went and posed nude for Playboy or, oh, she posed topless, whereas now there's like a million magazines and websites that are not nude or topless, but where you can express an image of yourself that is, you know, really culturally condoned, you know, for women to do the lingerie and to do, you know, kind of all that stuff. So there's so much room for that, meaning there's been so much room made for that that I think that is something that a lot of women, you know,

feel drawn to. Not that there's anything wrong with it. No, no, exactly. If you want to express yourself that way, but yeah, not everyone does. But I think it's a tricky thing as an actor, because sometimes there is this idea that, like, you kind of have to be a blank slate and take on any character and jump into anyone. That's great if you want to do that. But yeah, I think I got to a point where I was like, I don't want to play characters I don't really like or who just don't feel like somebody I'd like to hang out with. So I kind of stopped doing all those things where it felt like every time I play a new character,

you're going to just, yeah, wipe yourself as a clean slate. But you know, I've been really inspired by a lot of actors just, well, and I like the way casting is going, that there's more diverse casting. And they cast people with tattoos and interesting looks and people who haven't just always tried to keep themselves like empty looking, you know? We did want to ask a little bit about your more holistic side

and, you know, kind of not sure what you like to share. What are the things that you do sort of to maintain, you know, either your mental wellness or your general happiness or satisfaction in life? What are the things that you do? Like some people meditate, some people like therapy, some people like crystals, some people like astrology. I'm out of things.

Some people go to witch doctors like I do. Yeah, those are all good things. My thing now is circus. I'm really passionate about like aerial hoop, silks, that kind of thing. And it's been the thing that I've found that actually works and sticks. It makes me really happy. And I, saying this, I do recognize it's kind of a dependence, you know, because my therapist is just always like, yeah, but what happens?

But when you take that away and you just sit there with your, you know, your unvarnished self. She's always pushing me to go there. So I know it's a, yeah, it's another thing. But that is my personality where I always want to be doing something. But for me, circus is a way to sort of channel that energy because it is, you have to be strong. You have to be very passionate. You have to be a little bit crazy because like, let's say crazy. No, I don't mean crazy but like it really hurts you're always getting bruised and doing things and and and you're doing kind of scary things but uh there's something so rewarding and so invigorating about pushing through the fear and pushing through the pain and seeing your body evolve and be able to do cool things so yeah

i do that almost every day and to the point where i'm at a point of just being like oh i think i like this more than anything i do in my life and can i at the ripe all day to do you of 30 turn it into a career. Let's see. Obviously, you wrote this book. Are there other books in you? Is this sort of a path that you're interested in? Let's say, more than acting or in addition? Yeah, I think more than acting. Yeah. I love, well, I love books. I read way more books than I watch movies. And that to me was when I realized that, I was like, oh, that's a big clue that I should be pursuing this. If I think you kind of tend to pursue the thing that you love and meant to be doing the most.

So yeah, but I'll never write nonfiction again. It was grueling. You know, it was. Like, for me and my family and all the people around me, and also every time people ask me, what's your book about? It's like, I have to revisit all these old traumas. And I'm like, I'm so far past season. I don't want to talk about it anymore.

So, yeah, fiction next. That is my plan. We can't let you go without asking about your shaman teacher. Oh, my shaman teacher. Yes. She, her name is Catherine. That was probably an intuitive thing as well, where I just was having a bit of a, it was like, I don't know, you mentioned astrology. Are you into astrology?

Yeah, well, we're both kind of into all the things, and we've both kind of like done, tried all the things. Yeah. So, yeah, we're very curious. We also read a quote in our research that said that you have a practice of astrology and that, you know. That the moon is special to you. Aligning to a new moon gave you a sense of schedule. Yes, I do. I do new moon and full moon ceremonies.

So it's every two weeks. Actually, that's one of the best things I've done for my mental health. Yeah, definitely. Oh, wow, you were like up to date on your research because these are all newer things. But yeah, no, Catherine, so she was an astrological term. I was in the midst of my Saturn return, which is like between the ages of 27 and 29, which is when Saturn returns to the same place in your birth chart that it was on your birth, and it just messes everything up.

It's like, you know. I've been in my Saturn return my whole life. Yeah, I know. I said that to Catherine recently. I was like, I thought this was meant to have ended, but it's still going. But it's like where all the structures collapse and the things, it makes you get more authentic. Anyway, I just found her online, wrote her a big, long, sad email. When did this part of your journey start?

Maybe around 2017. Okay. Yeah. After you became vegan, everything opened up. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And yeah, she's just, she's amazing. We do visualizations like we, she's all about using, well, archetypes, but also animals, you know, animal totems. And we talk about it.

But then she will put me into, we'll go into sort of a meditative state. And she'll start asking, even. different parts of me to come forward and she'll ask, describe them, what color are they? What do they look like? Blah, blah, blah. And she writes all this down or then we'll ask certain animals to come forward, ask them. And it's crazy, the things that come through that I wouldn't have been able to access if it was just like, what do you feel is the right choice. Sure.

Whatever it is, she'll, maybe we'll have a session with, say, if it's jealousy I'm working with or, heartbreak or whatever, she'll get jealousy to come forward and express itself. And it's, it's all about, it's shadow work as well, you know, it's about honoring all these parts of yourself and figuring out what you need, not what's going to be right and sensible. It's like what you actually need to make peace with these things. And she was really helpful in writing my whole book because most of the book is from my younger self, like from my 11 year old self. So I was in constant dialogue through her with my 11-year-old self, who I didn't realize was so pissed off, was so angry from the way my situation and the mental health system had been handled.

And I was kind of calling the shots a lot and coming forward. And it was crazy. At the end of writing the book, the first time in my life, it was just like, she feels taking care of my younger self. Wow. Yeah, yeah. And let her go. That's incredible.

So is this something you do weekly, these sessions? Not weekly. I talk to her all the time, as in I send her voice notes and ask her advice on things. But it's only every, I'll sort of feel it. It's like, oh, I need to do a session on this. We need to go deeper with this thing. Yeah. Yeah, I've, Jonathan and I both have experience with, you know, various people in these arenas. I worked with a woman of blessed memory. Her name was Vera. And she did, she did some craniosacral and she did some, Egyptian healing and she did some Tibetan stuff and then there were things that I don't have really a name for, but we would do, you know, kind of she would put me into a meditative place and I saw a lot of images like color, I mean like very, very interesting. And I learned a lot in those sessions and also

felt tremendously rested emotionally after sessions, even if they were upsetting. But there was something very grounding about that experience. Your first viewer's story of how she said like she couldn't go near you for the first time. I paid her to not come near me for like five sessions. She said my body would not let her and I was like, you're just trying to make money off me lady. And she said, I promise like this is as close as your energy wants me to be. And so we would talk and do other things and then sometimes we would just have silence. Because she was a hands on worker. She was a hands on worker and a hoverer, meaning her hands would hover, meaning she would put her hands, you know, even near she couldn't get. And then after several sessions, she started to be able

who approach my feet. And we started kind of from there. And I worked with her for many years. She was not just doing that to make money. Two things. One is that when you told me that story, that makes a lot of sense because you take a while to get comfortable with people.

Why do you need an audience for this? We can just talk about this when we're not rolling. I was just affirming that that experience of sort of taking time to get closer to you, it makes a lot of sense, given who you are. I kind of joke that, that, you know, there's a lot of different shaman and shamanic work out there, but that, like, you know, having a shaman in your rolodex is kind of like the thing to do nowadays. I had my first experience with a man who was studying shamanic work probably when I was about 18.

And over the course of a handful of years, we did a few soul retrievals for me. And there was like a... Where were we retrieving your soul from? Well, in... Can I put it back? Well, the theory is like there's the classic book, Way of the Shaman that teaches people how to journey to the different planes of existence. And like you do. You know, like you do.

That's what I was doing in my first go at university while other kids were out partying and drinking. I was reading that and trying to figure out how to journey to the underworld using drumming hypnosis. And the theory is that when we experience traumatic events, different parts of our essence. or our soul or whatever it is, they sort of break off and they get attached or they separate and that this is a bringing back together all the aspects of who we are. And so a ceremony can have some preparation where for a handful of nights or weeks, you're sort of preparing intellectually, spiritually to bring these aspects back and saying that I'm open to this process.

And then you go and how it happened for me as I went and had this ceremony with this person who then journeys on your behalf and you can be given spirit animals and you can be given guides and messages that come back and then there's an integration process usually for a handful of weeks or even months or years maybe you're still in the integration process well i found it was fascinating i have these notes somewhere and many of the things that uh were brought back to me sort of integrated and transformed in my life i'm writing was a huge component of it and uh in my first soul retrieval there were aspects and visual imagery of writing and being a writer. And then sort of those got reintegrated.

And I went off and went to writing school that I hadn't planned on doing. And yeah, I found it quite fascinating. And many of the things that sort of were brought back ended up playing thematic roles in my life moving forward. And so for you, this kind of journey has been something, let's say, in the last handful of years. So astrology and I love the story of Catherine, was that her name? And then are the moon ceremonies that you do? Are those private? Do you do them in a group?

I do them with my cousin who lives just around the corner from me. We get a fire pit. There's an astrologer that we love to follow called Yasmin Boland. And she does these ceremonies and she gives you, she gives sort of these worksheets based on your star sign or your rising sign. And, you know, in a nutshell, the new moon is about setting intentions and new goals. and putting that out there. And then the full moon is about letting go, surrendering, forgiveness, making space for new things to come in.

So it's just a really nice process like doing it every two weeks, even if you don't really believe in the power of the moon, which is immense. Even if you don't believe in it. You can't not believe in it. Like it's a whole gravitational thing. Right. But some people, you know, they might not believe that you can be affected by it. But even if you don't, it's actually a really good way just to work nice your life

and to check in and to, you know, consciously set goals. And, you know, two weeks is a nice space of time to be sort of working on one thing. Yeah. I just think intention studies is important in your day-to-day life, but just in your overall life. Because otherwise, you can end up saying yes to everything and not doing what you really want to do. Yeah, I love it for that. I love it for sort of figuring out what's most important. The new moon is a, it's a Jewish ceremony for thousands of years. We commemorate it.

Wow. Yeah, every month when it's the new moon, there's a special blessing that we say in synagogue. and you're typically given off school. Girls' schools are given off school because the moon is associated with the female power in Jewish tradition. It rules the night, whereas the sun rules the day. And women are known as the protectors of things that are private and guarded in special ways.

Anyway, so it's a woman's holiday. And I actually started a, it's called Roshchhodesh, the head of the month. And I started a Roshchodish group in college where women would gather on the new moon every month. And there's a different theme for every Jewish month that we would study. It kind of gained traction

with the women's movement was brought back from an ancient practice. But even now, if you go to synagogue and it happens to be a new moon, the entire congregation blesses the new moon.

So it's kind of a cool thing. And our holidays are lunar. So every two weeks, if there's like Passover was on a full moon, so the two weeks before, I knew when the new moon came, I had two weeks to get ready.

That's so cool. That's a great practice to have. Thank you so much for talking with us. Thank you for your book, which is really, really stunning, and we will post about it and let people know about it. As a piece of writing, it's really beautiful, but the content of it and what you chose to share is really, really, really special. And it was really, really just lovely to talk to you. Oh, thank you. It's so kind. Really, it's an honor to be on. I love your work. I love everything

you do with the podcast, but also for animal rights. Thank you so much. Take care. And I really look forward to just seeing what you do next. I want to read things that you write. I want to study shamanic things. I want to have a moon ceremony, with you. I'll come to London. Definitely. Thank you, I ama. Thank you, Johnson. Nice to meet you both. I want to clarify that when I was talking about plant medicine, I was not necessarily talking about psychedelics. No, that's not, oh, is that a thing? You weren't talking about weed? No, I, well, she went right to ayahuasca, and I didn't know that her, I was talking about, like, flower essences. That's what I thought. Is that not what we're talking? I don't think that's what we were talking about. She was talking about

Transcendental experiences? Yes. And, and. And it sounds like... Well, now I feel stupid. I know. I was, like, suggesting, like, flower essences and, like, plant extracts. Are we the nerdy kids at the party? I think so. We're not hip.

I think more often than not, I'm realizing if someone uses plant medicine... I had no idea. They probably mean psychedelics first and less otherwise clarified. Because, like, 10 years ago, or even 20 years ago now, when I started being introduced to plant medicine, like, yeah, people were shrooming. but like, the natural path that I was going to was passing me passion flower and lavender. So first of all, people shrooming is a recreational experience that many people have, which can be transcendental, powerful. But plant medicine to me, at least now that I'm researching a little, is a little more of a practice tradition in line with, what many indigenous people have done for thousands of years.

And there's shamanic practices associated. There's often leadership around it, meaning a guide process. There's often a cleansing dieterally before. It's not just like, let's go shrooming and like, okay. No, of course. Not that there's anything wrong with that. But, yeah, like 15-year-olds like shrooming in the forest. I don't think is what you're-

Not plant medicine. All right. You want to hear my quick rundown of my notes for this episode? One, my talk about all the ways you've been ruled by shame. That's its own episode. I didn't bring this up, but we've talked about it before. The acronym for shame should have already mastered everything. And I was thinking what she was saying.

That was actually very interesting that her father's perspective is like shame is good. It's kind of like a lot of people feel that guilt is good, right? It teaches you right from wrong, keeps you locked up in your house. You'll never have sex. You won't drink. You won't say anything bad. Nothing can go wrong and you'll go straight to heaven. I also thought it was interesting the numbing of the other aspects of herself by focusing on one thing.

People don't really understand that so many addictions, substance, or behavioral, that's what they're trying to do. And so we try to fix the behavior or the substance use, but really what we're uncovering. And as you like to say, if you want to figure out why you're doing the thing you're doing, stop doing it. Many people associate like overeating or compulsive overeating with like, oh, you're numbing. like shove your feelings down, stuff your feelings with food. It's the same disease, meaning if your obsession or your fixation or your rumination is around what you look like, you're worth being dependent on your work, your body image and all those things, you'll just find whatever works for your particular personality, works, meaning

you'll find whatever is the tool for numbing. But I would argue, this is like one of my, one of my, one of my own's global theories, start a list, is that all we do, all we do, all. the time is numb and distract, meaning like every single interaction. Like, if you make a joke, it's, you know, what is it? What does Dan Byrne say? If you give someone a present, is it just to make them happy or just to keep them at bay, right? Like everything we do, it's just like, deflect, deflect, deflect, distract, make you feel worse because I feel bad. Like, we're just all numbing all the things all the time. I also had a note about most mental health issues or concerns

or experiences are an existential struggle. Well, and I guess this is a great time just to clarify what existential means, you know, existential relating to existence, but then it's kind of like, well, what does that mean? Some of your most famous existentialist philosophers, Kierkegaard, Dostoevsky, Sartra, Nietzsche, Camus, the notion of our value, meaning literally why we're here, existential angst or crisis is not the same as depression. It's simply, you know, a fixation with dread, anxiety, confusion surrounding our place. And much of my favorite sort of learning about existentialism has come from the fiction writings of these gentlemen, because you see existentialism play out where we try and figure out where are we a subject and where are we an object.

and where are we an object, you know? Marcusi, I think, also, you know, in this kind of era of literature and philosophy in particular, but the notion of like, where do I end and your needs begin, meaning as a culture, as a society. So I think that was a very, very interesting observation and kind of line of thinking when you think about eating disorders, because it is, it's completely subjective, but a lot of what we do is based on what we think other people need from us or what we expect, you know, of ourselves for the purpose of other people. I hope that wasn't confusing,

but existentialism is confusing. I was moving away from eating disorders and thinking just about when we don't understand our place in the universe, and I know that's a pretty tall order, or we don't understand why we're here or how to feel okay taking up space and we don't feel a strong sense of connection.

That's an upstream issue that then creates a lot of downstream problems. Yeah, say more. Like, say what that looks like. So you said existential crisis, is not the same as depression. It is not. But if I feel a strong sense of connection to my place in the universe and a strong comfort taking up space and connection to other people around me, it's much harder to feel depressed. It's not impossible. I find a way.

Yes, you're right. And if I feel that I'm waking up each day with a sense of like value and that and I have purpose, it's much harder to feel a sense of anxiety because I have a through line to my life that I'm like, oh, I've woken up with a sense of meaning. Well, and one of sort of my larger takeaways from, you know, from this conversation with her was there are so many ways to kind of get to what your issues are, you know, and you and she talked about it when she mentioned her therapist, Natasha, who's throughout her book, you know, getting into less talk therapy or classic talk therapy. And just that notion that there are many, many ways and we all get to choose different ways.

the whole, you know, kind of experience of humanity is we were scattered across the globe and we speak different languages and we have different climates and cultures. And so every culture will do their best. You know, every religious tradition, this is essentially what we're trying to explain, right? Every cultural tradition, this is what we're trying to figure out. You know, where do we have purpose? We were talking about this with the spring holidays that you and I just, you know, were celebrating and Passover. And like, what's the purpose of a bunch of people sitting together to talk about something that happened thousands of years ago and maybe it didn't happen and why are we all talking about it and everybody's so sad and the notion is that you know i can only speak for my particular culture and religious

like religious tradition that's the way we've chosen to tell stories for lots of reasons and every culture has those you know and that's what religious structure is trying to give us or trying to give us a sense of value purpose and the notion that you'll be saved and redeemed in the next world helps us be hopeful, but I think the whole point of the Enlightenment and, you know, this kind of thinking and modern thought is, well, what if I'm not just saying, no matter what happens, God's going to save me in the next world, right? Then what am I here for? How do I interact? How do I wake up and not feel like, oh my God, we're spinning around on a globe? Does nobody think it's crazy? Here's what we're not going to do. We're not going to give you a chance to list all the things that

you've been told are wrong with you. And instead, we're going to have to have. Ask people to tell us what their purpose is and how they feel connected. Do it on the Instagram. At Bialik Breakdown on Instagram, send us a message. Tag us in a post. Why not? Tell us if you feel like you've figured it out, what your purpose is. And even it could be small.

Mine is apparently to make this podcast. I liked how she said that her cat. Gave her some really good structure. And I mean, if I had that cat, I'd never leave the house. It was very cute. And I'm not really like one to fawn over cats. That was adorable. I mean, that haircut was outrageous.

If you haven't already subscribed, do so everywhere you get podcasts. Give us a review. Five stars. Why not? This is the last time you'll hear us use these voices. Next time we'll have totally different voices. I'll be talking from down here. And I'll be talking from up here. From our breakdown to the one we hope you never have. We'll see you next time.

It's my and biologics breakdown. She's going to break it down for you. She's got a neuroscience PhD or two. One fiction. And now she's going to break down. Thank you.