Mayim Bialik's Breakdown - Former CIA Spies on America’s Decline, The Potential of WW3, & What’s Really Happening Behind the Scenes in the US Government

Episode Date: September 16, 2025

What’s REALLY Going On Behind the Scenes of the CIA, the Media, and the U.S. Government? On Mayim Bialik’s Breakdown, former CIA agents and intelligence officers Andrew & Jihi Bustamante (creators of the EverydaySpy podcast, authors of Shadow Cell: An Insider Account of America’s New Spy War & popular guests on Diary of a CEO & The Joe Rogan Experience) pull back the curtain in this explosive, no-holds-barred conversation. From the moment you marry a spy (can you ever truly trust your partner?) to the shocking 4 categories of lies the CIA teaches—Mayim & Jonathan dive deep into the secretive world of espionage, national security, and the collapse of trust in modern institutions. Andrew and Jihi break down the shrinking middle class caused by American politics post-Trump, what it means for our future, whether the U.S. is moving closer to dictatorship (and if so, can we stop it?), and why the wealthy elite are leaving the U.S. (and which countries they’re fleeing to). These whistleblowers expose what the CIA doesn’t want you to know: - The 4 categories of lies every CIA officer is trained to tell - The agency’s current use of psychics and Cold War-era remote viewing programs - The loneliness and psychological toll of living a covert life - How the news & media is manipulated—and why even “trusted” outlets are failing us - Post-Trump politics: is the U.S. sliding toward dictatorship or already in it? - Why wealthy elites are fleeing America (and where they’re going) - The global fallout if a U.S. president is jailed, and what it means for our standing - The CIA’s take on Israel, rising global conflicts, and the risk of world war - How AI is dehumanizing warfare and reshaping the battlefield - Why Epstein’s case continues to expose cracks in our institutions Andrew and Jihi also reveal how influence, persuasion, and dialogue can still be used productively—even in a fractured society. From Venezuela’s collapse as a warning sign to the everyday challenge of separating real news from propaganda, this is more than an interview—it’s a wake-up call. Get the truth behind headlines, corruption, and the secret machinery of the U.S. government & change the way you see everything! Start your new morning ritual & get up to 43% off your @MUDWTR with code BREAK at mudwtr.com/BREAK! #mudwtrpod Find your Spy Superpower: https://yt.everydayspy.com/4mjywCV Andrew & Jihi Bustamante's book, Shadow Cell: https://geni.us/ShadowCellBook Andrew Bustamante's YouTube Channel: https://youtube.com/@Andrew-Bustamante Explore Spy School: https://everydayspy.com/ Andrew Bustamante's Podcast: https://youtube.com/@EverydaySpyPodcast Follow us on Substack for Exclusive Bonus Content: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bialikbreakdown.substack.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BialikBreakdown.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube.com/mayimbialik⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What most Americans get wrong is we believe that the government is there to serve the people. What we are experiencing is almost exactly what happened to Venezuela. You need a functional and thriving middle class for economy and a society to be safe. What you're seeing is a decrease in value of the U.S. dollar. You're seeing the decline in international influence of U.S. politicians and U.S. power. What does that mean about your 401k, your bank account, your small business? Andrew Bustamante, he's a very, very famous former CIA operative. You are married to, in love with, and in partnership with someone

who has been trained to lie, cheat, steal, and kill. I think with me, he felt like he could be honest. Weakness, yeah? Yeah, weakness, yes. And she jumped on it. The Epstein issues shows the American public that there is no draining the swamp. Until you've been on Capitol Hill and actually watch these assholes,

yell at each other on camera, and then have lunch together and give fist bumps, you don't get it. You can't go out there and hold up there. a sign and hope that everybody sees that you're right, you have to play the game. Everything changes as the United States declines from its role of global superpower. You're seeing Vladimir Putin, you're seeing Xi Jinping, you're seeing people stand up in ways they've never stood up before. That is a bad thing for the United States.

Are we moving into a third world war? Hi, I'm I'm Bialik. And I'm Jonathan Cohen. And welcome to our breakdown. Have you ever thought about what it takes to work for the CIA? All the time I think about it. I also think about World War III, the decline of the U.S., whether or not we're in a hot war, and if I should be thinking about getting another passport.

I also wonder about what kind of personality features might lend someone to be more or less trustworthy and to be open to understanding different perspectives on the level that you might make life decisions based on those different perspectives. This episode is such an interesting mix because we talk about systemic issues that are happening, the future of democracy, how the U.S. may be mirroring Venezuela in terms of its imminent collapse. And if so, why that might be. We also touch on Epstein and what's really going on in these files.

As well, we balance it with some really introspective work on how to protect your energy. what to say no and how to learn to say no in order to make sure that you're living your life not being subject to what other people expect of you. Who could possibly address all of these things? Well, you may not be surprised. Andrew Bustamante and Jee Bustamante, authors of Shadow Cell, an insider account of America's New Spy War, and the founders of Everyday Spy.

So Andrew Bustamante, we had on the podcast a year, or so ago, and he's a very, very famous former CIA operative. His wife is also a former CIA operative. They run everyday spy together, and they are a fascinating couple. She comes from a very peace-loving Buddhist home and ended up entering the CIA. They met amidst her anxiety diagnosis. She used to vomit every time she saw him. We're going to hear all about that. How they ended up working together in the CIA, what they learned, both as a couple and individually about who to try to and how what the news is telling us about what is true in society. And it's a really, really fun episode where we get to talk to two different sides of a couple that has been immersed for decades in the deepest recesses of government secrets.

It's fascinating. Myam describes it as a really fun episode. I describe it as a breakdown and an evaluation of how America got to this point, looking at the Bush administration, the power dynamic of the Obama administration and how that led to Trump, as well as why you can't put a former president in jail and what that says about global power structure of the U.S. We're going to be sitting in different seats today because we have two guests in the podcast studio. It's been a minute since we've had two people in the studio, but we're very excited to welcome

Andrew and Ghi Bustamante to the breakdown. Break it down. Welcome, Andrew and Ghi Bustamante to the breakdown. Thank you. We're very excited to have you here. in person, we spoke to you, just this half of you, last November, you have a book called Shadow Cell that you wrote together, an insider account of America's new spy war. And what's really cool about this book is you literally write it together. And when I heard about that, I was like,

how are they going to combine their voice? Easily solved because it ping pongs between each of your voices in each of your experiences, which is especially cool because so many aspects of your lives as a couple involved things that you had to encounter as a couple, but also things that you had to deal with separately and reflect upon within the couple. So I have to say, and we'll get into more of the details of the cell and how this sort of, in many ways, tells the story of how wars are being waged. But I also just sort of wanted to give you an opportunity to talk a little bit about what it was sort of like presenting as we both used to be in this completely other world. And this is a story of not just being a spy, but being partnership in these kinds of

activities. So I'll ask you to go first. Yeah, just a little bit of perspective about sort of, not just what it was like writing the book, but what this life has been like. So I think it's been wonderful having a partner because I think it would be very lonely otherwise. So even writing the book, you know, we have our different perspectives and our different experiences. And I think being able to share that with somebody that I trust wholly is a powerful experience for me. And gee, he doesn't trust anybody wholly. Don't think for a second she trusts me completely. Oh, I don't think she does. Like 98%. I know enough about you. I can't trust you. But I will say that it was being married to a fellow operator.

I can't imagine not being married to an operator. Now that we've done it, I don't know how people do it any other way. Because the only thing that stands between us is legal obligation of need to know. That's it. So anything that doesn't have that very clear need to know barrier, I get to share. And if it does have that need to know barrier, I can say, I legally can't tell you that and vice versa, right? But I want to know, I want to know just like on a personal level,

are there moments where you realize that you are married to, in love with, and in partnership with someone who has been trained to lie, cheat, steal, and kill? And you have to decide, like, do I know what it feels like to trust that person? So I'm going to answer first because, gee, he usually lies first. I think it weighs on me all the time. When I talk to you, it weighs on me all the time that you are a trained, like, deceptive, undermining saboteur. Like, I know it. I know it.

So it's hard because sometimes... That's what all men think about their part of it. especially after he met my mom. Oh my gosh. And then I realized there's like a genetic element of predisposition. So it's powerful. But I think about it constantly. I do so.

I will admit, though, I don't think you look at me that way. I think you look at me as. She's like, I can outspy you any day of the week. You sir hold nothing on me. It's true. It is absolutely true. Yeah. So I grew up in a family where I used to argue with Andy all the time because lying is a big

deal for me. My ex cheated on me and it was a big deal. But he was like, you lie by omission. And I was like, that's not really lying. Like that's, that's how all the women in my family do it. He was like, oh no, lying by omission is still a lie. So he definitely has reasons to question me further, which is fine. And I respect that. But yeah, I trust Andy. I think he's easier to read. I think he. To you. To me. Is it because you? You? You? Is it because you? You've been out of the game a little bit? Was he harder to read while he was practicing? No, I think, and I think with me, he felt like he could be honest.

So that's, yeah. Yeah, weakness, yes. And she jumped on it. And I jumped on it. I was like, oh, I was like, I can read this guy. This is great. And after my experience with my ex where I actually did, like, I did a full targeting package on him even before I had ever joined the CIA.

Like, I was like, okay, so I have the skills to weed out a lot. if I really need to. CIA teaches us there's four categories of lies. So that's why there's an element of academia here, right? She does the lady lying? The lady line.

But they teach us that there's bold lies, white lies, lies of omission, and lies of misdirection. So Jihee will do three of those lies. All before 9 a.m. Without even batting an eye. The only thing she kind of stays away from

is bold lying. Bold lying. Yeah. Which then really isn't lying at all. It's just giving partial truth. Well, I mean, it's funny because Jonathan is a creative, and a lot of times he will see or imagine things or create things that don't yet exist, but it gives him a different perception of reality, as it were.

And he'll say, well, that's what I wanted to be true. Like I said what I wanted to be true. And I was like, but that's not true. It's not the same as true. You would not be a good CIA operative, though. There are places where you would probably fit in very well, though, just based off of what you just said. Tell me. Downtown Toronto.

So keep in mind that everybody who creates our alias stuff, everybody who creates our alias identities, our cover legends, the people who actually go through the process of filling in a backstory, what we call backstopping, all of those people are largely created. Yeah. There are creatives who CIA can basically empower with the legal permission to transform reality. Actually take down one website and put up a different website. Change your whole degree. Change your educational background. Transform your face and your name on your high school yearbook if they wanted to. There's a whole avenue for creatives that they do not know is possible.

We found out that the CIA was using psychics to do remote viewing. Psychics didn't know that there was an outlet for them, and now people going through creative degrees are like, wait a second. I don't need to work for the movie studios. People are saying AI is going to take over jobs. We're creating them. Creative people, you can't make a TV show, but you can write a backstop backstory for a CIA operative.

And if you're a psychic and you're like, what am I going to do with my life? Go work for the CIA. And if there's anything AI won't be able to replace, it's remote viewers. That's going to be a hard thing for AI to It's true. Although we heard that maybe they're not using them as much now in the age of AI because so much information is being gathered by AI. What is the story with how remote viewers are currently being used? So there's a lot about the metaphysical sciences. That's the right word. Cy phenomenon, yeah. There's a lot about that that CIA outwardly rejects and there's an element of it that we know they have to maintain.

but they can't admit that they maintain it. So I understand that sensitivity. I was never privy to any of the activities that CIA is actively doing. I was able to investigate some of the activities that they were alleged to have done, and there is a lot of really powerful evidence behind things like remote viewing.

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Make sure to mention my ambiolics breakdown to help support the show. So we had Angela Ford on who, you know, she started as just like, I'm a government worker, like, just like sweet little lady with like funky glasses. And she literally was recruited and they were like, oh, if you don't know how to do this, we'll train you. And I was like, what? And then we said to her, well, did you have ability? she's like, oh yeah, I used to leave my body all the time as a child and soar into the trees. I was like, of course you did. Right.

That makes sense. But what she said was that all they needed was someone, and we talked about this in our first episode, all they needed was someone kind of susceptible and pliable enough to be able to have information kind of given to them and be given directions, you know, I would not be good for that because I'd be like, why? What's happening? Tell me more. No, that's not how it works.

she said they would just teach this skill but I think it's really interesting that you mentioned that it is kind of separate from what many people are like oh they're feeling into the ether and the energy and this and to me it's almost like more proof that there is a scientific basis for it not just because like oh if the CIA is doing it that's fine but the notion that these are skills just like you've talked about and just like the book talks about

there's a variety of skills that many people don't have and there's a reason that my dad was a teacher and you're a CIA operative and we make a podcast, right? So I would love for you to actually weigh in on this because we talk about this in the book a little bit but Ghee didn't want to be part of CIA and then she ended up as part of CIA

against her every effort not to and then you excelled in that freaking place. So I think this ties in exactly to what Miami is saying. Like there's an element of just teachability, skills and like the learning index that CIA teaches us. Yeah, and one of the things

I love about CIA is they do, they mold everybody who comes in. So, I mean, which I personally love because I felt like I had potential, but I didn't quite know how to hone it. And so they, you, the hiring process is so extensive. But they are looking for something very specific when they hire. And one of those is teachability. And so they can give you all of these different skills. I mean, whether it's to be a, you know, a disguise, you know, person or a targeter or anything. And the other thing I like that you guys were just touching on is they have this enormous budget. So they have the ability to experiment with all of these things and see, does it scientifically prove out? Can it actually help us? Which I love personally.

You're making this sound very appealing. Yeah. It's like maybe I should join. It's not too late. I want to talk about some of the stuff that's happening in the world that you two have a very unique perspective on because you are able to, or you have experience, seeing what most people don't, right, how information travels across the world, how governments are interacting, how geopolitics plays out behind the scenes. Before we get into that, sort of just wrapping the couple conversation, I'm always fascinated about how does it feel trying to be normal people after living such intense lives? It's like, you know, the gambling addict who's like primed for a high level of adrenaline.

in and scanning all the time trying to now be a suburban human being. What is that like? I miss the secrets. I will admit that for sure. I read the news and I'm like, oh, there's more behind this. I know it. And I know somebody who works in that office and I wish I could call them and ask. So for sure, you know, I miss the people I worked with like immensely, but I also miss access to the secrets. I also find it strange when I tell people. Like, oh, yeah, I used to work for this. You know? Because I never know.

Do you don't have a cover story of what you normally did? I guess now you're a public person. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, but the first time, for example, I told my sister and her boyfriend who were... Very. Yeah. What's the word? Creative?

Yeah. No. Yeah. So I wasn't quite sure how that was going to go because... What did they think you used to do? I had another government agency as a cover. Got it. Wait, so even your family doesn't get to know that you work for the CIA.

My parents knew. I chose to tell them. And then I had to report that. Your peace-loving Buddhist parents? Yes. Well, because when I first joined, all I had watched were the, you know, like the James Bond and Jason Bourne movies. And I was like, if I disappear, I need somebody to know to come look for me. She didn't trust them. I didn't trust them. I didn't trust them. So I told them. I wish you. Her own backup plan. A hundred percent. Why would you?

No, I feel like the idiot. I was like, I can trust them. It's the CIA. You can tell anybody, huh? I told nobody. I left that whole life behind. I flushed my old life down the toilet and I like waved as it went away. Totally different.

Yeah. Yeah, so for me, it was, the initial telling, the initial coming out was always a little bit scary for me because I don't know if somebody's going to have like a very violent reaction or if somebody's going to be like,

oh yeah, that's really cool. You know, and it's just iffy. You never know these days. Yeah, it's lonely. Yeah. That's my only description for it is it's lonely. because nobody cares about you until they find out about CIA. And then they care about CIA, either pro or against or curious.

And then you're just a conduit for CIA. So it's not like we ever exist as people, which is, it's okay, but it's lonely. It makes it so that you don't, you want to avoid conversations. You don't really want to have a lot of conversations. It's actually easier to be a public figure in front of a camera or with other public figures because at least you guys know what it's like to get approached at the airport or have someone who doesn't know you until they recognize you and then all they want to know is about your old life, not your current life?

I was watching the documentary series about the hunt for bin Laden. And it was very interesting because obviously I remember 9-11. I was in, I'm in grad school at that time. Anyway, I mean, I remember every moment of that day. I remember, you know, being glued to the news and just all the information that was kind of. Like, I was so tuned into it, but I had forgotten a lot of the details of the actual hunt because it took the time that it did. So it was kind of interesting watching with, you know, my kid who's now trying to learn about this aspect of history that's, you know, a distant memory, right? So when we were watching it, you know, some of the operatives, like their own wives did not know what they were doing.

And even, I mean, that shocked me. One of them, he was talking about, like, his daughter had like a concert or something, and he was like, I won't be thereby because they were like literally the helicopter was landing. And he was, you know, in D.C. monitoring it. But his own wife was like, you never show up for our child, you know. And then finally once they caught bin Laden, he was like, turn on the news, honey. Like this is, you know. And that shocked me, like the level of subterfuge, right, that you kind of have to live in. I mean, I'm assuming that's not part of the attraction, you know, but it is sort of part of what happens. And it is what people are fascinated about. I would say that what attracts people to CIA in that lifestyle is youthful. That's why they recruit so heavily. What's the average age 20? The average age is 32, I think.

It's like mid-20s to very early 30s. And that's because the vast majority of hiring is under 30. And then there's a few outliers that are late 40s, early 50s, usually because of their extensive knowledge or skill set in one particular thing, finance, information management, something like that. Ability to go undercover as an older person. There you go. Yeah. You would think that would play into it more, but I don't think it does. But yeah, there's certain things that make the job predisposed to youthful, younger people.

Right. So then you don't start, you don't have mature thoughts. Right. Until you're, what, 34, 35? And then you start thinking about, do I want to get married? Do I want to have kids? Do I want to have a savings account? Do I want to have a retirement account?

Everything before then, you're totally blind to those things. And that's kind of what is in CIA Sweet Spine. You mentioned you missed the secrets. I do. So you read the news. Yeah. And what is happening? I mean, this is too broad a question.

But like, what is happening behind the scenes that people don't realize? How much of the news is just total propaganda and just missing? 50% 90% of the detail. So I want to pin that on you because that's the right question. And I want you to answer it honestly because he's asking the right question. How much of the news is wrong? Well, I mean, I think if it's a proper news source and they are reporting facts, right? Like observable facts, then they're getting those right.

The problem is that so much of news media isn't reporting facts. so much opinion. And when you start getting into the opinion, so much of that is just, what's the word, conjecture, right? They're guessing. So there's a lot going on behind the scenes. Just like you were saying, there's a lot of backroom conversations that are happening that the media will never see, right? What they see is what the governments want them to see. When the, you know, U.S. government or the government of France comes out and makes some kind of big, like, oh, we're doing this now. who knows what's really happening behind the scenes. Something is happening behind the scenes,

but we won't never be privy to that until the next big announcement, you know. And I just want to chime in because what Ghi said there is with the very professional journalistically sound news sources, what they report that's observable is factual.

Well, we all know your journalistically sound news sources are increasingly shrinking. There's probably three that you can think of, right? Like Routers. I would say Rooders, is journalistically sound. The economist is journalistically sound. Do you think that

one political party or another is better at providing a broader clarity as to what's happening or they're equally culpable in their facade that they're presenting to the world? Equally

culpable. Yeah. I do not think the political party. Until you've been on Capitol Hill and actually watch these assholes yell at each other on camera and then have lunch together and give fist bumps, you don't get it. It's so twisted. So it's all theater. It's all theater. And in the U.S. government, it's all theater because at the end of the day, they all want the same thing. They all want a reelection, another term in office. They all want to make sure that they don't have

to go find a real job. They all want to make sure that they can vote and control their own salaries. That's really what they want. And then they want to make sure that any newcomers that come in understand this is how business is done. And then the American people, we give them permission to do that because we only show up at like 30% to vote anyways. And they know that. So they know exactly who the one out of three people is that's going to show up to vote and exactly what to say to get that constituent to come out every midterm. And that's what they do when the time comes to do it.

So I'm going to ask a difficult question that a lot of people are talking about and is probably not fair to put the weight of this question on you. What's happening with Epstein? What is it that people don't actually know? I think the Epstein issue is so interesting. because I really think it just shows the American public that the government is the government. No matter who's in there, there is no draining the swamp. You can't do it.

It functioned, just like Andy was saying, the government functions the way it functions. Anybody knew who comes in is told that this is the way it is, and you can't change it from the inside. And so it's nice for me to see the American public slowly, hopefully waking up to the fact that we can't change it from the inside. There's nobody who's going to enter the government who can change how it functions because once they're in there, they're in power. If you have the head of the FBI, the deputy director of the FBI who potentially have control of what information gets out, who is controlling the information if not them? Everybody in the government works in their own self-interest.

So if it's not in their own interest to release the information, which is probably not, and there's also laws and regulations that probably you know, hinder some of the things that they've been asked to do. But for the most part, they're just working in their own self-interest. And that's why nothing's going to happen

because it doesn't help them or the current administration to raise that information. The self-interest piece is the piece to understand. Because what most Americans get wrong is we believe that the government is there to serve the people. Maybe it was written somewhere,

but it's not. The government is not there to serve the people. The government is there to serve the government right? In the event of a nuclear war, as long as the government of the United States exists, then the United States exists, even if all the people are lost. I've seen that episode of Succession. Whoever's in the safe room is all they care about. And it's real. It's real because the government is what defines the national identity.

I don't want this to be a partisan statement, but I think before the first Trump presidency, things felt a little bit different. For sure. They felt a little bit different in terms of, news, press, media, just even the conversations about them. You know, I'm not like putting this on Trump, but something definitely has shifted in that. It feels like, you know, if you look at kind of political perspectives as a bell curve, it feels like news is now operating from these two tail ends, you know, and we have kind of like

the most extreme on the left and we have the most extreme on the right, which sound very similar because it's all a circle, right? And it feels like that, notion of kind of a middle has sort of fallen out. And, you know, it's paralleled by sort of like the loss of the middle class that we talk about, you know, this kind of like stratification, you know, based on class and things like that. But I think that there's still, you know, for the bleeding heart liberals among us, there's still like, I'm just going to say this, like someone like Bernie Sanders, this like grouchy, crotchety, you know, he's pretty consistent, right, and kind of seems like that renegade that, you know, many of us thought the left could be.

So many people in the Obama era, right, were like, there's a new wave of hope and we're going to all make nice, you know. And I think of people like AOC, who I think is challenged by exactly what you're talking about because she came in and I'm like, oh, we've got like a Bernie vibe. But then like it starts teetering and then it's like, oh, is she more right? meaning like right-wing people now or it's like everybody's picking on everybody is that just sort of the inevitability of this system? Like is Bernie Sanders the only holdout

who seems to be like riding his ship all the way into the sunset? Well, you've got a couple of things. I think that's a great question and I think Bernie's a great example because what you have with Bernie Sanders is somebody who's so consistent. He's even fucked by his own party.

Sure. Right? And he is so true to his vision that he can be like, sidetracked or derailed by the people he trusts because he trusts them to be of the same vision. And it's just a great example of how things are falling apart. I agree with you that things seem radically different post-Trump. What we learned at CIA is that we really started to see the change in the first two years of the Obama

administration. Because in the first two years of the Obama administration, Obama walked in and he was young enough and youthful enough that he saw the problem and he was like, I'm not going to play this game anymore. and he took the presidential powers that were given to him by all the congressmen that didn't want to have responsibility, right? He took those presidential powers and he used them. He was the most lethal president in history using covert action, which is his wing, his right, as a president, as his chief executive to use, the most lethal president in history. He was the first one to use a record-breaking amount of executive orders to push his agenda across. And when the, when the Congress turned blue, he used that leverage to get across,

that mattered to him. Whether or not you liked that he did that, that set a precedent. And then when Trump took office, he was like, well, this has already been done before. So I'm just going to do the same shit that's been done before. And you can't say that it's my fault. So that's when we started to kind of see. Now he's really the most lethal president in a different way. In a different way.

But we have this waffling now. And it took eight years for Obama to basically exercise these rights, these privileges, is the right word. he took eight years to use these privileges and now we're going to be feeling the ramifications for many, many decades. As presidents have to choose to reel themselves back in, or the other two branches of government

have to step up and do what they're supposed to do and be that check and balance. It doesn't seem like we're ever going back. There's no check and balance now. I mean, you know, the Supreme Court used to be for, again, like the bleeding heart liberals among us like, well, at least, well, not anymore. I agree with you. I completely agree with you.

I don't think there's, I don't think there's any going back. And I think that the amount of time it's going to take for us to find some semblance of stability is such a long period of time that we have to be asking ourselves the question, do we want to be here in the middle of all that adolescence? Or do we want to go somewhere else and exist somewhere else while the American community, the American people figure it out? Let's get to the power structure of the world that has basically been uprooted since it was established after the Second World War, because that's what you're talking about, right? You're talking about the change in global power dynamic

after the Second World War. And for a long time, there was American superiority control. And what you're saying is in this infighting and instability, that's now at risk. Correct. And it's even worth going back. You can actually see how during the first Bush administration, the policy was set in motion for other countries to start taking advantage of what we weren't focused on. So we were focused on terrorism and war on drugs and global policing. Also known as the war on people of color. But we were engaged in all this activity. That's where our money went.

If you talk about it like an everyday person sitting at home. Looking at their budget. Exactly. Your paycheck came in and you chose to put this much money towards this global war on terror. Well, that's not what your neighbor's putting their money in. And that's not what China or Russia or North Korea or Iran were putting their money into. They were putting their money into other efforts, right? And that's how we woke up at the end of the global war on terror in 2022 to a modernized China that controlled those, that controlled shipping and supply lanes, that controlled rare earth minerals that controlled new loan agreements with third world countries that had basically cloned telecommunications and had cloned the ability to make microchips.

We wondered, like, how did they do this so fast? They didn't do it fast. It took them 20 years. It's just that for those 20 years, we had our heads so deep in the Middle East that we weren't focused on anything else. And the return on investment is pretty low. Like, not that much was accomplished

in terms of the progress made. We made a lot of people hate us, who might not have before. We broke international laws, which just like the Obama administration before the Trump administration, created a new precedent, and that empowered countries like Israel,

like Syria, like Turkey, like Russia, to just completely abandon the idea when it's convenient of international order and international justice. It's tough. We're going to get to global order in a second, but I want to circle back to the Epstein answer that you gave because implicit in that answer of it not serving their interests is an implication that there is damning evidence in those files. Otherwise, it would serve them to release them.

And I'll add to this because I know, gee, her face just twisted. It's recorded. Her face twisted. If you're only listening in audio, she just left the room and she is in her car. That's what her face said to us. She's like, do not put me on the spot. I will not answer this. My face always betrays me.

So it could be a CIA spy. You're correct. What Ghi is implying is what she's implying intentionally. It doesn't serve their public. It doesn't serve the interest of the people in power. But take that to the logical conclusion. And then why? Why doesn't it serve them?

Now, the why is what we don't know, and that's where conspiracy lives. We don't know whether the reason the Epstein files aren't available to us is because he's got a picture, hamming it up with some 14-year-old girl with the president. We don't know if that's why it won't be released. Have you been following what Michael Wolfe is putting out? That guy is supposedly the Epstein biographer in making claims that, you know, I have zero evidence to support, but he claims to be the expert and has seen polarites and has seen things that would be otherwise, if true, completely damning.

Yeah, but these people are so slippery. Apparently, you could be in a photo with a 14-year-old girl and still be like, we were just posing for a photo. I mean, that's what happened with Prince Andrew. Michael Wolf claims that these are topless 14-year-olds or younger, so that's a little bit harder, but doesn't imply guilt of, you know. And this is, this is the legal issue is that, and also, you know, feeds into, does it feed their self-interest? Because the prosecutors have a lot. of discretion on who to prosecute. They do not prosecute unless they have enough evidence to bring it to trial and convict. So they have to look at the evidence. And even if they have damning evidence, number one, if they think they're going to bring a case in the future, they can't let that out. Number two, if they don't, if they have evidence, but there's not enough to bring the case, you know, out to charge somebody, they can't let that information out because how, how

many people of power are you going to bring down with circumstantial evidence, right? Because that's what those people are going to say. That's circumstantial evidence, you don't have enough to prosecute me, and now you're defaming me. And the thing to understand is America survived as long as the American political structure survives. All the politicians understand that. So what can't happen, and this is a big part of the reason why two years ago, I said Donald Trump was never going to go to jail. never because you can't put a former president in jail if you were to do that that's sending a signal to the entire world hey America doesn't have their shit together hey we're not as stable as you think we are I mean I thought electing a person who is not a politician who used to be a reality show star was already evidence of that and I think we're seeing that I clearly was wrong what about the convictions he has that's I think these are all great points right he's got he's got a conviction in New York City or in the state of New York that clearly didn't sway the voters. No, it made people more excited.

And what you're seeing parallel to all the stuff that people are talking about with Donald Trump, what you're seeing is a decrease in value of the U.S. dollar. You're seeing the decline in international influence of U.S. politicians and U.S. power. You're seeing Vladimir Putin. You're seeing Xi Jinping. You're seeing the North Korean leadership.

You're seeing Israeli leadership stand up and push back against their own commitments and promises to Donald Trump to the American president, right? You're seeing people stand up in ways they've never stood up before. And that's all indicative of the fact that people are losing confidence in the American power base. That's not a bad thing for the globe, but that is a bad thing for the United States, for the average American. So you think his indictments in New York actually weaken the U.S. global power structure? I think a big part of the reason that New York was willing to prosecute when so many other states weren't was because New York believed in justice over the power, over the global power structure.

Correct. And what we're seeing now in hindsight is just what Mayam said. When you prosecuted the guy, we made him a victim. And then there was a rally cry behind him of people who, the silent majority, which is the majority that the politicians fear the most is the silent majority, the people who don't really say what they really think, people who don't talk politics at the dinner table. Well, there are also the people that I did not realize there were so many of them who would say, this is a disgusting person with abhorrent, you know, tactics, treats women horribly, speaks poorly about the disabled and women and people of color. But.

But. And then insert reason here. My bank account is real, like, meaning, you know, there's all these voters who are going to do whatever they're going to do despite all that. And for me, like, you know, I was, like, raised as, like, this hopeful, like, grandchild of immigrants of, like, where? the greatest country in the world with the melting pot. Just be a good person, you know. And for a lot of people that, yeah, that's not their driving course. I'm not saying they're not good people.

In many cases, I do believe. I mean, I think we have to believe that, or we're a completely divided nation, that many well-meaning, good-natured people were willing to gamble those certain aspects of things that they may believe in for a leader who, again, fill in the blank of what you needed your president to do for you. And let's not forget that the alternative, because we're America, we only gave ourselves one alternative. Oh, for Pete's sake.

Right? We were stuck between two bad choices. Yeah. And I think all Americans understood that. And I think your point is right on the nose. I don't like to call Kamala bad. There are well-meaning, right? All people are well-meaning.

No, the Democratic Party stepped in it and is still having trouble recovering. And that also has shocked me. Like, there doesn't seem to be a spiral that. that the Democratic Party can come out of. And that's hard. And in a weird sort of parallel, the Republican Party is also in a spiral that they didn't create.

And they also don't know how to get out. They're like in a whirlpool that's just sucking them in. But there's a lot of complicit and I think really disgusting things going on. And, you know, it's exactly evidence of what you said, what, you know, my cynical, liberal parents told me, you know, people will always, you know, like, they'll always cower to power, to money, to greed. You can't trust anybody, right?

I didn't want to believe that was true. But when I see a certain, you know, Republican leadership really failing to step up, like, to me, that that denigrates the whole system. There's a, I would also say that it reaches beyond just the two parties. It's international. It doesn't matter what language you speak. it doesn't matter where you went to school, if you went to school, it doesn't matter what part of the country or what part of the city you're in anywhere in the world. You can count on certain inevitable truths. And one of those is that human beings will pursue their own self-interest.

We are still biologically wired to do what we believe will help us survive. We have not yet evolved cognitively to the place where we're willing to accept that we might actually thrive if we were to take different actions. I 100% agree with you, and it is an evolution. I want to circle to your comment on you can't put a U.S. president or former U.S. president in jail, and the Supreme Court has basically held that and supported that by saying anything done in the act of a presidential, in the presidential act can't be prosecuted. Doesn't that put us further and further towards dictatorship? Absolutely. I would love for you to weigh on this because we talk about. This is what happens. Welcome to the Bustamante family dinner table. This is just dinner. The Bustamante is that's the episode. This is what we talk about, you know, over our shared glass of scotch or whatever else is, you know, what are we doing right? What are we doing wrong? What is the new precedent that we're setting for the future? And what you're saying is exactly right. This puts us on a path where how can we really be a just nation? Because it used to be that, oh, even the guise was that the U.S. president was acting.

on behalf of the country. Not merely just... The party. The party or themselves or their family. Right. Even the guy you didn't like. You know, I talk about, you know, I think my dad voted for Kennedy and that was like the last person he voted for, you know?

And yeah, there was this notion. I remember the Reagan years, you know, and it was like, oh, this sucks. And like, oh, they're not helping poor people. Like, that was the conversation. It wasn't at the level that it is now when I talk with my kids, where everybody's like screaming at each other and crying and, you know, like over what is happening to this country? Like, what does this government represent?

Well, I mean, when I joined the agency, I think, so I grew up in a very liberal family as well. And we were all, you know, a melting pot and hope and peace and, you know, we're Buddhists. So when I went to law school, it's the first time I started really broadening my perspective and becoming centered. And when I was at the agency, the same thing happened. I became more and more centered. And when I voted for Obama, I was really excited for President Obama. We went to the inauguration, the first inauguration. But over the course of his eight years, there were things he did that I did not agree with.

And that was the first time where I was like, I liked this guy, but he is doing stuff that I really disagree with. And every president since then, whether I voted for them or not, has done things that I'm like, okay, let's see how that goes. or I really kind of think that's a bad idea. So I do think that we have been on a trajectory. Like, democracy was always an experiment. They say it in the history books, right? And when they first created our government, the president had like almost no power

because the Congress was supposed to take care of it. We are a representative republic. They're supposed to represent us and make the decisions for us. But over time, the president has gained more and more power, which now reflects the governments that South America, has that Latin America has, strong executives, weak Congress. If that's the direction America wants to go, then that's inevitable. Then that's inevitable, right? Then that is the choice that Americans are making today. If this is not the direction we want to go, we need to do something

about it as voters as the public. Because Congress, what we can see, Congress is not going to change it on its own. We are on this trajectory until the American people step up and say, this is not the America we want. How would you like me to step up, though? Like, I don't know how many signs I can hold up and how many pussy hats I can wear. I mean, literally, and I think this is like what a lot of people are feeling fatigue about,

in particular, you know, people who do align with more liberal values. Like, I don't, I mean, many people are leaving the country. Yeah. And to me, that also feels like, gosh, I don't know. I mean, for me, this is the place we came to because no one else would take us. Like that's my family story.

So like I'm American. This is like I don't, I'm a citizen of nowhere and everywhere, right? Yeah. So like I don't, I don't even know what that looks like. I don't know what marching does. My parents did it against Vietnam and, you know, like, and that was a thing. But it's like I watch everybody marching. I'm like, we're marching for Instagram.

Like, with all due respect, it's like when people show me the marches they went to, it's like, look at my cute costume I wore. And I'm like, what? What's happening? So Andy knows that I have a horrible person inside of me. A very evil person. A very evil person inside me. Can we speak to that person now?

So my advice is that you have to play the game. When I was, when I first went into college, I was very hopeful. And I thought, I can change things from the inside. I can play the honest game and still win. That is not true. You have to play their game. The reason that the. that the conservative right has gotten so far

is that they have spent the last 20 years prepping, they have strategically used court cases to change law. They have strategically invested money into people that hold the values that they want to propagate, right? That's what you have to do. You can't go out there and hold a sign and hope that everybody sees that you're right

and we'd all be better off if, you know, we sang kumbaya together. That's not going to work. You have to invest time and money and have a good strategy to shift hearts and minds and laws. I would say that there's, to your point about people leaving, by and large, I think there's two ways that we can affect change. One is do what's best for you. And if what's best for you is leaving, I understand that your family's story was one story, but that doesn't mean it's your story. Right.

Right. You are a standout person in so many ways. you can write a whole different future for yourself and for your kids. The more that we stop holding on to the past and the more that we realize that we're actively writing the future, if we make that a very personal choice, people will notice. The UK is struggling right now because people become millionaires in the UK and then you know what they do? They leave the UK. So the UK is watching wealthy people leave and go somewhere else. Same thing's happening in the United States right now.

Every person I know with a net worth of $5 million or more, if they know me well enough that we have this conversation, they have property investments or plans. Maybe they even hold already a second passport or a golden visa to go somewhere else. They're not exclusively American in an American passport with hopes and dreams that are tied to the American economy. They are diversifying their lives, not just their portfolios. And that's important because as the government watches people be incentivized to leave, they're going to do everything they can to try to bring those people back or claw back what they can from those people. Because you're right, the middle class is being crushed.

Let's game this out a little bit. Because we talk a lot about, oh, we're moving into dictatorship. And I think a lot of people, it just, they're like, it doesn't mean anything to them, right? They're like, okay, some of my rights are being taken away. and this is just how government works, and it's always a crisis from this generation to that generation, and this is just the next version of that, right? But what actually happens?

Because we're talking about the destabilization of the currency. We're talking about potential uprising, violent uprising. Like, why are people that have $5 million leaving? Jeehee's families live through this. Jehe's family is from Venezuela. Like, her father was born in Caracas, like, left as a Venezuelan citizen, became an American citizen, because what we are experiencing is almost exactly what happened to Venezuela. And it's not violent. That's the most insidious part of it. It's not violent. It's not abrupt. It's

slow, viral kind of infection. So in a nutshell, as the American dollar loses power, it incentivizes other countries to decouple from the American dollar or to diversify into currencies other than the American dollar, whether that's the Japanese yen or whether that's the Chinese run-man-be or whether that's the, you know, you name it, whatever currency they choose to diversify into. And keep in mind, China for a long time wasn't part of the World Bank. Their currency was never part of that basket. It was only in the last 15 or 20 years that they became part of the basket that is, you know, part of the IMF. So that brought them legitimacy. And that's legitimacy there, that is increasing for the Chinese currency and legitimacy that is decreasing for the U.S.

dollar. So as the U.S. economy reduces its power, whether you count that in GDP or PPP or currency value, whatever, as the United States decreases, other countries are increasing, whether that's one country like China or whether that's a group of countries like the BRICS nations. So you have a superpower that's decreasing and a rising power that's increasing. What that means is that the parity between the two countries is getting closer and closer, which means other countries are becoming more and more. wealthy and successful while Americans are becoming less and less wealthy and successful. At some point, you're going to reach equality. Equality is the peak of conflict.

Equality is the peak of conflict. There's a promise out there that equality is going to make everybody happy. Equality just makes everybody hungrier to get a little bit ahead of their competitor. Right now, no one's trying to compete with the U.S. except for one or two countries, right, what we call global power competitors, GPC countries. when the time comes at the United States is basically a paradox with China that means Americans have to learn Chinese

it's not an option anymore right that's why we don't like to learn any language except English if you look at if you look at the language is spoken around the world only 25% of all the people who speak English are native English speakers 75% of the people who speak English worldwide learned it as a second or third language because they knew they needed it for success that's how we knew we're winning

I mean, that's what people would say. At a minimum, just imagine that your grandkids might have to learn Chinese, not by choice, not as an elective, but because if they want to have a career as an adult, they have to learn Chinese. That's a scary thought, and that's a very simple thought to understand if that's what they have to learn to speak, what does that mean about your 401K? What does that mean about your bank account? What does that mean about your small business?

What does that mean about policy that's being levied that impacts everything from your health care to your job to your minimum wage? everything changes as the United States declines from its role of global superpower. And so my first professional job was with a nonprofit organization who began by working with Holocaust survivors. And then it expanded its services to work with torture survivors and refugees. And so that exposure made me realize that just like Andy was saying, it doesn't happen quickly. There are always, it's always a slow burn and there are always signs along the way. I mean, if you look at, you know, from the time that Hitler was, you know, Hitler took power to when things were really obviously bad, it was a couple of years.

And there were things happening all along the way that, you know, people either thought, well, it can't get any worse than this. Or they were like, well, you know, maybe we'll wait it out a little bit longer because I don't want to uproot my business. And then next thing you know, it's too late. So, you know, for me and then, you know, my family's from Venezuela and we watch that. happened to and it was a slow burn of everything. Give us a little thumbnail for people who haven't followed it or don't know the history. Yeah so Venezuela and the you know Venezuela used to be 1980s yeah 70s 80s late 70s really 80s so it's an oil country they were they had lots of oil money it's a beautiful beautiful country amazing people

amazing food but over time the there was a bigger and bigger gap between the wealthy and the poor and the poor in Venezuela are really, really poor. So over time, because of that gap, eventually Hugo Chavez was brought to power because so many people were suffering. And I think people forget that people can only suffer and be oppressed for so long before they are going to make a change

either through uprising or voting and voting, you know, a strong-armed president into power who says, I will take care of it. I will take care of you. I will take care of all of your needs. And that's what, that was the promise from Hugo Chavez. And they were, the country was, you know, people were suffering and almost they were brainwashed. They just needed something to believe in. And they empowered someone to take care of these problems, whether or not he had their best interest in mind or not. Exactly. And the Chavez, the Chavez administration was buying votes in essence. Like buying it with promises, buying it with eggs, buying it with milk and bread. Because at the time, the country was, as was such that every vote was equal. So if you get a vote from a poor, uneducated person doesn't even understand what they're voting for, or whether you get a vote from an educated elite,

it doesn't matter, the vote is still a vote. Right. And so, you know, he's voted on all these promises and there's this legitimate suffering that's happening, but because of previous administrations never tended to it, now we have somebody who's basically inept at running a country and everything tanks. He makes everything state-owned.

He takes the Pidevisa, which is the oil company. He kicks out all the foreigners who were doing the, you know, the oil processing and the, you know, finding the oil, things like that. All of their other sources of income, he made it state run. Nobody really knew how to do it because it was his cronies and the whole country tanks. And now everybody's poor. Yeah. There were currencies devalued.

Anyone who had savings lost everything. Lost everything. And millions of people left. Anybody who could leave, it was a complete brain drain. It was a complete money drain. And now everybody who's left there. is all, they're all suffering. And now decades later, it's not any better.

Right. And that's the thing that we need to understand is that so much bad can happen in such a short period of time, but it takes such a long time to build something good and robust. I don't believe that our country's doomed, but I do believe that just like you're saying,

we are at a place where the conversations that we have around our dinner table, the conversations that we have with our teenage children are way more mature and radical than we ever had when we were teenagers. And that should be a sign that we have to ask ourselves, what kind of conversation do we want our children having with their teenagers? And what can we do now to shape those conversations then?

I think what you're talking about in terms of strategy and going after in a legislative way, impact and how to have impact is important. But what are some of the signs that you're looking at that are happening in the U.S., not to, again, fearmonger, but to sort of parallel and understand where we are. For example, the privatization is that equivalent to having impact where our allies are no longer allies and we're treating them in a way economically that is pushing them away. Like what are the things that you're seeing currently in the U.S. that are causes or red flags? For me, it's a large part of it is the currency, what's happening to the U.S. dollar,

the fact that the currency isn't stable and the fact that other countries are learning how, to make their currency more attractive by voting, by kind of turning to a more pragmatic term of agreement rather than an ideological term of agreement. What I mean by that is the United States for a long time since World War II is basically said, if you want to do business with us, you have to believe in democracy and you have to fit these certain rules. We even have rules about like anti-corruption and non-corruption acts where we won't do business with corrupt officials in foreign countries.

Well, we say we won't, right? where other countries Yeah. Other countries don't put those stipulations in place. Business is business. It's transactional. It's either, it's pragmatic. It's not ideological. So when I watch our currency decline, that's a big part of what frustrates me. The other thing that that is a sign for me is when we see education be something that is driven by policy.

The research, the attack on research, even if you don't like the DEI, which I can understand, And look, there's a lot there that we're not going to tackle. But the attack on research and the brain drain that comes from restricting the brightest people in the world who once saw the U.S. as a beacon from coming here is a serious concern. When you attack universities, when you start to use funding and when you start to use banking and funding as penalties, when we seized Russian assets as an example, in support of Ukraine, you can't do that. if you seize someone else's money because they put their money in your bank in good faith, and then you seize their money because you disagree with them, all that does is tell everybody else out there.

Don't put your money there. Don't put your money in that bank. Because if they disagree with you, they're going to take your money. And that's exactly what China did. They pulled their money out of American banks, decreasing the power of the American dollar. But you're exactly right.

These are signs for me because it's not something that affects us today. It's something that affects us for the next five years, 12 years, 18 years or more. when you attack liberal institutions, when you attack schools of thought, when you reduce research, when you use funding as a penalty or as a reward, I mean, I wasn't happy when I was, even when we were, like in our 20s or in high school and they started talking about whether or not you can say one, one nation under God. I didn't understand why that was a thing. And now I realize

that that calling into question education at all has incredible long-term impact. Yeah. For me, too, the watching the, educational institutions be attacked and I'm watching them, watching them acquiesce to the demands is very concerning for me. I keep my eye more on civil rights issues. So as rights begin to be taken away, and it's not necessarily as they begin to be taken away, but it's as they are taken away and nobody says anything. I think there are many signs that we should all be paying attention to, and there's personal signs too. And every one of us is seeing signs in our personal lives that show us the trajectory that we're on is unnerving. At the very least, it's not confident. We don't

know where it's going. It could go up. It could go down. And nobody likes to gamble for real. And that's essentially what we all have to do right now is either gamble or stand up. And one of the ways that we've always talked about like standing up that doesn't involve a sign or an Instagram selfie, like you said. One of the ways that we've always talked about really stepping up is voting for that third party. What happens when we have a record-breaking voter turnout? and a record-breaking amount of voters for a third party. Yeah. It still means that one of the other two parties is going to win.

But right now, everybody goes to the polls thinking, I don't want to waste my vote. So they vote not for who they want, but for their second or third choice. Well, I think that's a good point, you know, also is that the, you know, if we talk about sort of removing a partisan voice from our universities, right, from liberal institutions, we don't want to live in a country where kind of like the loudest, wealthiest voice wins. And I think that's sort of the danger. And if the president, let's say, is not the party that you like, you're not going to like anything they do, right, unless they're doing something that personally serves you. And that's also not the way we sort of make decisions, you know? And I think that's complicated. I think

the university example is a great one where civil rights has to be a foundational bottom line of us as citizens of this country. And that's always true. And there always has to be a conversation about what is a defense of free speech? How do we protect people's rights while also not making it a partisan argument of my side's going to win? And so your side has to pay. And I think that's also what a lot of people don't understand and are still trying to negotiate around what we believe, you know? Back to the leaving America part. If one chooses to leave America, you know, there's only a certain number of places that they may want to go if they want to continue to be in one of the superpower options, right?

You can think that China's on the rise. Maybe they want to go there. If you're thinking about your economic stability and you're concerned about your investments in the U.S. declining, then you would want to place them into a rising competitor, right? So then the options are the EU. And is the EU really better off than the U.S.? Like trying, you know, because I think people hear this and they're like, it's hyperbolic, right? For some, it's like, well, can I really uplift route my life? Many people can't, the people who can.

So like, I'm curious, because I had this conversation, my father is in finance and we sort of do this, our dinner table speculation is, how is the world going to collapse? And if so, what do you do about it, right? And his perspective is that every country besides Germany, besides Germany, Germany has a massive amount of debt. The U.S.'s debt, especially with a big beautiful bill, is skyrocketing. Our mutual friend Tom Bill Yu is like, this is going to guarantee that the U.S. is going to go bankrupt. And in that becomes this increasing divide between the rich and the poor. And when the poor are poor enough, then massive civil unrest happens. And no one is safe. You can't have a huge economic divide. It's just not plausible. You need a functional and thriving

middle class for an economy and a society to be safe. And to be safe. be healthy. So does Europe, is Europe better off in that regard if everyone is in debt? Or is like, you know, because there's so much turmoil, some people will say, well, there's just this turmoil and there's no real path through. And I'm curious. Well, I would say that your, your foundational argument is flawed. Okay. Because it's not necessarily about going to another competitor. Think of it like a, if you're a superstar athlete, you don't just go to your rival. You don't especially go to your rival right away because to do that creates all sorts of secondary and tertiary issues that become difficult, right? What's your contract rate going to be?

How are people going to view you? What's your fan base opinion, et cetera, et cetera. So you don't go to a superpower. So you're not going to leave the United States to go to China. Please, whatever camera is looking at me, which camera's looking at me? That cameras do not leave the United States to go to China. If there's anything that we should have learned in the last six months or so, it's that China has zero problem detaining you just because you're an American. You're not going to thrive in China. That doesn't mean you shouldn't do business with Chinese businesses from a

safe place like Switzerland, but you don't go to fucking China. You don't lead the United States to go to a competitor. You leave to go to a more stable, there's no place better. No place is better than any other place. But you can find a place that's going to be more stable, say, for the next 10 or 15 years, while

the United States will be unstable for the next 10 or 15 years. You can go to Portugal. You can go to Costa Rica. You can go to Switzerland. You can go to Croatia. You can go to any number of these places where they're not better than the United States, but the stability for the next 10 or 15 years will look differently. And then one of the beautiful things about being American is that we still have a strong passport. We still have a strong currency.

For now, that could change. Well, conveniently, it takes about 10 years to change your citizenship. So you could go to another country not to give up your American citizenship, but to gain a second citizenship. Just to keep options open. Just to keep options open. And guess who gets to keep whatever second citizenship you gain your children? So you're literally giving your children additional options, right? And that's how professionals in the intelligence world see it.

It's not a matter of finding what's better right now. It's a matter of what can I do now to give me more options in an uncertain future. Croatia? I've heard of nice things. I mean, I've been there. I actually went on a USO tour. I did a USO tour several years ago, so I got to see Army bases. all over the world, which was really amazing.

Croatia is beautiful. Portugal's nice? I was not on an army base in Portugal. I was in Djibouti. Not so nice. I was in the Middle East. It was beautiful or not beautiful is not really what I'm talking about. Well, some people think like Croatian.

It's like, what's that like? But there are also like picturesque, enjoyable, beautiful things. It's on the cusp of people. Like a lot of people here like that and they think like more. Absolutely. Oh, yeah. No, that's fair. Yeah.

But it's on the verge of becoming a member of the EU on using the euro. Like, it's on the rise in a lot of ways. It's a place where not just Americans, but successful people, digital nomads from all over the world, are kind of flocking in that direction because of the low cost of living, of the stability, especially stability for being a foreigner in Croatia, which never forget when you're an American and you leave the United States, you're not a local in that country. You are a foreigner in that country. In the United States, we don't treat foreigners very well.

In other countries, it's the opposite. A lot of countries treat foreigners very, very well because they see foreigners as an injection point for a foreign currency into their economy. Whereas here, we just see foreigners as people who speak funny. We're going to hit pause here. We've got a lot more with Andy and Ghi Bustamante coming up in part two. We open part two with, are we going to be involved in another world war? So we get a little bit more into geopolitics. We talk about Iran.

Talk about the differences between an interstate and an intrastate. and an intrastate war. And Ghee's going to explain what she believes the biggest problem is for U.S. citizens. And we're also going to do a little bit of a deep dive into the anxiety disorder that Ghi was diagnosed with and how and why the CIA prefers people who are struggling as the perfect recruits.

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