Mayim Bialik's Breakdown - Glennon Doyle: Manage Anxiety, Personal Truth & Transformation

Episode Date: March 9, 2021

Mayim gets starstruck and emotional talking with NYT best selling author, Oprah Book club alum, and featured Goop friend Glennon Doyle. Mayim and Glennon bond about the challenges of being publically vulnerable and the emotional toll it takes to share authentically. We discuss blended families, making relationships work, and how to improve communication when both parts of a couple are in recovery. The ep touches on personal transformation, finding one's personal truth, and how Glennon and Mayim's relationship with anxiety has changed over time. Do not miss this emotional, heartfelt, and very personal episode.  BialikBreakdown.com YouTube.com/mayimbialik Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm a person who's raised as a woman in this culture who had an eating disorder and still does. Well, how the hell could that have happened in this culture? That is shocking. People who don't understand that are confusing to me. I feel like they're just not paying any attention. Like the good news is, when somebody's writing a New Yorker profile about me, I'm like, have that it. I know for a fact you're not going to find any shit I didn't already say. There's no secrets anymore.

Hi, I'm Iambialic and welcome to my breakdown. This is the place that we break things down so you don't have to. Today we're breaking down myambialic, literally reducing her to a pool of mush. It's myambialy's breakdown. She's going to break it down for you because you know she knows a thing or two. And now she's going to break. That's excited. We're going to be speaking to a unbelievably important person.

I think she's so important. We're speaking to Glennon Doyle, and if you don't know who she is, you should know who she is. We're going to be speaking to her today about, I'm going to let my co-pilot Jonathan Cohen tell you what we're speaking about. I'd like to introduce my love warrior, Jonathan Cohen. It's the title of Glennon Doyle's first book. Hello, everyone. Hello, my name. Jonathan, what's today's episode about?

Besides your general concern and fear about it going horribly wrong. It is so nervous. That is going to be a component of the show for sure. We're going to talk about anxiety. We're going to talk about personal truth. We're going to talk about desires to control things. We're going to talk about when we don't feel anxiety and the things in our life that bring us joy. We're going to get a little motivation.

Yes, we do talk about all those things. But we're talking about them with, you know, a woman who's known for, I mean, the New Yorker just reviewed her existence, which is like, you have arrived if the New Yorker just, like, does a piece on you. It is speaking to someone who has essentially written books with honesty, you know, on her sleeve. So, I mean, she's the most honest person, I think, that I've spoken to, just like in my life. She's just everything's out there. And it's not, I don't find it pretentious or obnoxious. Like, she's just. It's a very different conversation than others we've had that have included anxiety.

We're not, we're not being clinical in this situation. No. We're sharing personal experience. we're talking about the lived moments and what that feels like and how Glennon and Mime's relationship to anxiety has changed over time, what they've done. Also, just in this episode, I publicly identify as someone with an eating disorder, which I've never done before. So we'll save that for the big reveal for the interview. But that was a big deal. I felt, I mean, I only feel inspired because of her, you know, to do that. I've known about my problems for years. And I've been in recovery, as it were,

for two years, but really felt like if she can do what she does, why couldn't I be? Well, she bears her soul in her work in that she's extremely public. It's very raw, very raw. And we talk about the notion of how so many of us are projecting an image that we think is appropriate. I mean, she had a marriage that she was very public about. The marriage fell apart very publicly. She is now with a woman who also is a public person.

and I mean, she's lived so much complexity in the public eye. And also is still, I don't know, she seems like the kind of person you'd like just like curl up on a couch with. Like, she's the kind of person, you know, when you go on vacation and you're at a hotel where there's like a communal space where people like hang out after hours. Like I'm picturing like a Yosemite lodge or something like that, right? And like there's like chess. And there's like, she's the person that like would be like, you know, on the corner of the couch like hanging out. And you would just like strike a conversation with her and like end up talking all the. night with her. And realize that she's a philosopher and then you are making notes during the

conversation and you're like, this, if I just put this on my mirror in the morning, this little one quote. Well, and she's not a person, and I think this is where I really resonate with her, she's not a public person who's like, I've figured it out, you know, which is completely not what this podcast is in case anyone is keeping track. Anyone is making notes to say, this is how we should live. Correct. That's not what we do here. In case you think, I'm like, I figured it out and here's a podcast about that. I practically end up on the floor in this episode. Word of the day.

Word of the day today, Ma'am, is really exciting because it comes from the episode, and it's something that you say all the time. The word of the day is terminally unique. Terminally unique. This phrase refers to a misconception that many people have, that their situation is so different from what anyone else is going through that no one can understand or that they can't get help or they can't get the right kind of help because there's a, you know, and it's a defense mechanism. It's a form of denial. It's a lack of acceptance. It's a lot of things. And for many of us,

it's our kind of default and our protection against our fear that we can't be made whole. So the defense is, well, this is why. It's not going to work. Therapy's not going to work. medication won't work. It's not going to work because that's not really the problem. The problem is my situation is so incredibly specific. And if you knew this person, you'd act this way too, you know, whatever it is. And that's terminal uniqueness. The opposite of terminal unique or the flip side is that there are a lot of commonalities between people's struggles. I mean, yes. And I think that when you're in a place of feeling terminally unique. I don't know if that's the direct, like most of the fear is about having to open up. If you say no one will get me, then you don't have to try.

So terminally unique in this sense is a kind of a pejorative. You know, it's not like a, yay, I'm terminally unique, which yes, you're all individual beautiful snowflakes. That's true. And where I'm going here is that the expression of whatever's going on or the causes may be very unique. No one has that parent or that stressor or that, you know, ex-husband. But the impacts of those are often very similar. Well, the human, the human experience is similar. And the human experience of suffering across different states. We can all suffer the same. Is not so unique and has a commonality to it, which is why people are able to get help. Yeah. And the fact is, and this is, you know, really just from years of slogging it through in therapy, whatever you think your problem is,

that's usually not your problem. No, usually it's your mother. Well, I mean, I'll be a little more... No, I don't even get a joke. I don't get a smile. No, because I'm talking about something very serious right now. Whatever you think is the problem is usually not the problem, meaning at the root of almost every kind of issue we have outside of like mental health issues, meaning like if you're

schizophrenic, if you're bipolar, you know, if you're dealing with those kind of diagnoses, that's its own thing. But most everything boils down to fear and resentment. Or expectations of how something is... That's also fear. Oh, that's fair? Like, if you really... If you made a list of the ten things that are most pressing,

I would argue that they would probably all fit into one of those categories. If not both. It matters if you're worried about the boyfriend or the girlfriend. Finances. Finance. But whatever it is, and Glennon talks about this, like, It's the structure that we come from that then frames everything. Why don't you tell everyone a little bit more about Glennon in preparation for bringing her?

She's amazing. But like how many books is she written? So many books. What are the titles? You want me to read her bio. I want you to tell us everything you know about her. I do recommend the New Yorker profile on her because I will also say this is an unusual interview in that.

It's not a classic interview of like, tell us how you got here. Like I start by crying. You'll see. Glennon Doyle's the author of the number one New York Times bestsellers, Untamed, and Love Warrior. That's me. Love Warrior was an Oprah's book club selection, which is a very big deal. She's also the author of the New York Times bestseller, Carry On Warrior, which was, I think,

her second. She's an activist. She's a thought leader. I love that. She's a thought leader. She's the founder and president of Together Rising, an organization. all-woman-led nonprofit that has revolutionized grassroots philanthropy. They've raised over $27 million for women, families, and children in crisis.

She lives in Florida, but the New Yorker article says she's coming our way. She lives in Florida with her wife and her three children, who she co-parents with her ex-husband. I'm overwhelmed with excitement and anxiety. It's strange that when she gets overwhelmed with excitement, she gets so quiet. I was so upset. I was so nervous. I couldn't even tell you why I was nervous. I couldn't even articulate it. Well, here's the interview. Let's welcome Glennon Doyle. Break it down. Thank you, thank you, thank you so much for being here. I am the most nervous about any podcast guest right now. I'm terrified. I'm already starting to cry. That's it. I'm very, very nervous. And I'm so grateful that you're here. And we share an agency. And I literally, We met on a on a Zoom thing that we were both on and I like lost my mind and then you were like, oh, we're big fans.

And then I really lost my mind. I think I started crying then too. I'm a crier. You should know that. And I thought of canceling today. I didn't even tell Jonathan that. It's just terrified. I was actually introduced to you and the fact that you exist by a very close friend of

mine. Her name is Abby. And what she said was there's a person who's kind of you. And I was like, what? And, you know, it's, I'm an odd person, so I usually don't believe people when they say that. And she was mainly talking to me at a point in my career where I was kind of like, what am I supposed to do beyond like entertain people? You know, like, what am I supposed to do? Like, why did God do this to me?

Why me? Why the blessings? Why the curses? Like, all the things. And what she said is I think you need to learn about Glennon because, you know, she really does use her. platform for tremendous, tremendous good. And, you know, I was like, mm-hmm, whatever. So I looked you up and I was, you know, really, really blown away. And this was really well into your journey also. So I got to sort of learn about your full journey. And then another friend of mine, whose name is Hannah, got me

untamed, your last book and, like, literally gave it to me weeping because she and I cry a lot. And so, you know, obviously the book really, really touched me, I mean, as it has many, many people. But then I was like, everybody likes Glennon. Like, Gwyneth Paltrow likes her. I'm already, it's forget. I'm going to cry this one. We may not even use this. And I'm like, freaking Oprah Winfrey.

Like, what, what am I supposed to do? Like, you know, I, this is going to be a disaster. It's not. I love it. It's beautiful. What I was most nervous about was not wanting to be. that person. By that person, you mean someone who... Like that person who's like, OMG, you get me. Like, you totally like tell my story. Or the celebrity version, which is,

this book will change your life. This is the thing that you need to make you feel good about all of your things. Because I feel terminally unique. And I have a, I have the most special connection. I have a more special connection than Oprah and then Gwyneth. Like, I'm more. I'm more. more special than anyone in terms of my relationship with you. And we don't even know each other. Well, already, I feel like just based on these last two minutes, our relationship is so much more special than my relationship with either Oprah or... That's all I needed to hear. Thanks for being here. Have a great day. It's done. No, but like, here's the story. I either was like, well, because this is what I said to Jonathan as I was crying about this last night. I don't want to

like ask you to tell us your story. Because I'm not. I either was like, I either was like, I either was like, like, Because that's what you do. That's what the books are for. I mean, well, and also, that's not just like, that's what the books. Like, your books are literally about being honest about telling your story. So it's like, tell us how you, like, I don't want to be that person. And I didn't know if anyone would want to talk to me at all for this podcast. And, like, this was a huge source of, like, strife with me and Jonathan because...

It's true. I can confirm every single person we listed. Doesn't want to talk to us. You were on that list. She doesn't want to talk to us. This is why we're so connected. I never think anyone wants to talk to me. I don't talk to people just because I think it's the nicest thing to do is leave them alone.

Also, like, we're both people of faith who also think and live outside of the box of a lot of, like, traditional structures of religion. And really, like, struggle with that. And, you know, although we're not of the same faith, like, we're of the same faith. You know, there's this kind of, like, higher power, you know, oneness. And then there's the way that we live our lives to try and be an expression of like that force, whatever that force is. I happen to be a compulsive overeater and I'm anorexic and I'm a restrictor. And people, I've never said that. And this is obviously the first time.

This is the first time I've ever talked about it because people are like, well, why are you so overweight? Well, because I'm a compulsive overeater. And in addition to being, you know, anorexic and restrictor. So your particular struggles that you've been so, so raw and honest about are, first of all, incredibly significant, which you know, but for me, as someone who's never talked about it, I have this envy that I feel, and this is just my whole life, is like compare and despair. Like, you have this life where, like, I feel like, why does she get to live all the things? And that's just the notion, and this is like, if we want to go deep, there's not enough in the

world, right? There's a finite amount of happiness, and there's a finite amount of confidence, and there's a finite amount of beauty. And so, like, if you've taken any of, of the confidence that I'm trying to. There's less. There's less. Fair enough. And I know that that's not rational. Right.

Why are you hoarding my happiness? It's a valid question. So I have this pathetic little post-it. I'm like, this makes me cry. Just before you get into the Post-It, we both read the New York Times, the recent New York Times profile. New Yorker. No, sorry, New Yorker profile, which was, I don't know how you feel about it, Clinton,

but we thought it was quite beautiful. You know what, though? I was mad at it because I was like, I know her better. Why weren't you tasked to write that profile? Why wasn't I tasked to write it? Who's Aria Levy? Why did she get to write it? We have the same agency, new.

What is Richard White's doing sitting there? And here I am on the sidelines. Like, I eat too much when no one's looking. Well, thank you. I thought it was nice. I think it's very, very strange to read words that someone else has written about you when you are a writer. Abby tried to explain it as if someone was playing soccer about her. Like it's just very strange experience.

But I will tell you about Ariel that I don't like her as much as I like you. This is going really great. Keep that train going for us. I think, okay, so here's some of the words that came to me. And also, like, Jonathan is, well, he doesn't like that I call him these things. Jonathan is a poet and he's a writer. I know. And, yeah.

So I had these sort of like poetic thoughts about what I wanted to talk about. And here I wrote down three Fs and three R's. I wrote down food, fear, and faith. And then I wrote down resentment, resistance, and resilience. I was like, I just wrote chapter titles for Glennon's next book. So those are some of the things that, you know, just feel like sort of themes that I love about you. And I also wanted to talk specifically, and maybe we can start here, about what you get from being so honest, in particular about challenges to your mental health, food stuff, anxiety, you know, depression. What is the freedom

that you find, or is there freedom from having that kind of openness because it can be terrifying? And again, I also relate in like being a public person who's not on like the Oprah Gwini level, right? But everything you do and choose to do is public. So I'm curious if there's freedom there, if it feels like a different kind of prison. It doesn't feel like a prison. I don't know if I'm missing. I truly, I think about this a lot because, you know, I have a friend who, when she posts pictures of herself on the internet,

people tell her, like if she posts them in a bathing suit, people will respond to her by saying, you're so brave. And she's like, that's not what you want to hear when you post a picture of yourself in a baby suit. So much courage to do this. I had someone tell me that I was brave for being in a movie 30 pounds over my normal weight. That's what I was told. Like, you're so brave.

Yeah. The implications of that are so aggressive, right? Right? Like, it's framed as a compliment, but what it reveals about what that person believes about how people should be is pretty intense, right? Because what you're saying is, oh, you're not supposed to look like that. So just by posting that, you have broken. broken barrier, right? So that's kind of how I feel when people ask me what I, you know,

consider it brave to talk about just like being a fully human being. I feel like somebody who just posted a picture of their, of their plain old human body and everyone's like, holy shit. Like that's so brave. And I'm like, no, no, this is just like who I am. And also, P.S. This is also how you are, jackass. Like, yes, how I feel. is like all I'm doing is talking about what it's actually like to be a human being. And I'm not pretending to be a different way. And for some reason that people consider that very brave, which to me just says we have a lot of shame issues about being a human being.

That's why it's brave to post a picture of your own body because we have so many ridiculous shame issues about bodies. I think that, you know, I don't know what it is that I'm sharing. That is so shocking. I am a woman, whatever that means. I don't even know what that means anymore at all, actually. I'll get into that another year, I guess. But that's losing all meaning to me.

I'm a person who's raised as a woman in this culture who had an eating disorder and still does. Well, how the hell could that have happened in this culture? That is shocking. How could a little girl develop an eating disorder growing up in America? Like, to me, it feels so freaking obvious that people who don't understand that are confusing to me. Like, I feel like they're just not paying any attention, right? Or, oh, I'm a human being who developed addictions over time.

Like, oh, my God, imagine that, wanting to numb yourself from the freaking human experience, which, by the way, is ridiculous. Being a human being is ridiculously hard. Or, like, oh, my God, I'm a human being who. whose sexuality has, like, grown and changed and evolved and is that, I guess my question is, I really don't know why more people don't do it, I guess, why more people aren't just, like, really, because the freedom that it gives you is it just makes you feel less afraid. Like, the good news is, when somebody's writing a New Yorker profile about me, I'm like,

have that it. I know for a fact you're not going to find any shit I didn't. I didn't already say. There's no secrets anymore. You don't have to be a person with a public platform to feel what it would, the possible power of not having anything you're afraid of people finding out about you.

The question of why don't more people do this? I think it's twofold. One is there's an enormous amount of compartmentalization and just disconnection from those aspects of ourselves. Like we have to sanitize. And then the second part is like we're constantly, disconnecting and sanitizing and protecting and projecting these very non-full images of ourselves so that we can appear some way that we believe to be acceptable.

And that's just ingrained in us from just, it's only getting worse, but it's getting... I think the problem's the patriarchy, though. I mean, I think a lot of the structure of this is that lens. I don't mean to, I'm not... But for men, too, like, you don't want to show them... Men live in the patriarchy, too. I'm just saying that like this notion of presenting a certain sanitized version of that kind of perfection, I think it does. It has a very particular gaze to it, you know, at least in terms of social media.

So for you, does it not feel like freedom? It just feels like being. Well, I think it's all the patriarchy. It's also just living in a consumer culture, I think. It's consumerism. It's this idea that everything we're looking at, you know, what is it, like 98% of freaking messaging. is we get every single day from someone trying to sell us something, right? And the way things are sold to us is here is a person who has no problems, right? And if you want to be like this

person who has no problems, you have to buy this shit. That's it. Every product has a problem that it's trying to overcome. Exactly. Or a perceived problem. And if you don't have that problem, we're going to convince you that you have that problem so that we can solve it for you. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, consumer culture is like the mafia, right? It shows up at your door and it's like, If you don't have, you didn't have a problem a second ago, but now you do, but the good news is, we can solve it. And you're like, crap, what just happened? That was fine.

I think it was fine. I didn't even know I needed those countertops. I didn't even know I needed those jeans. I didn't even know. And then you just like keep buying stuff until you, because like people buy more who feel less them, right? I mean, I do it all the time. If I could show you what my freaking counters look like in my bathroom, like I still believe

I'm one batch of lotion away from Nirvana. I will probably order. or something as soon as we get off this. So, yeah, I think it's consumerism, it's patriarchy. It's the idea that we think if we're admired, we will be liked and we will have connection. Like, we don't understand that there's a difference between admiration and love, right? So we're just like try to get admired, not knowing that that, what we really want

is connection and admiration actually separates us from connection because people think, oh, she's cool, but I'm different than her, right? as opposed to real connection, which can only be like, I'm showing you my real self. You're showing me your real self. There might not be any admiration left. But it's real. But it's real. So, you know, I don't know if it's a freedom.

I will tell you that it's interesting to be a memoirist, which, by the way, is something they really just only call women writers. Men just are writing stuff. But, like, we're doing, like, confessionals and tell-alls. Like we're just like sitting in our therapy, writing down our notes and our little diary with a little key and like whatever. The first article I read about Untamed, I think it was in New York Times and the title was Glennon Doyle has a third memoir question mark. That was the title. David Sedarisis was like, David Sinaris was like, David Sinaris, 48th book.

But it was like literally a question mark like, are we going to let her say a third thing? She has three things to say? We've been humoring her twice. This is too much. My Ambialx breakdown is supported by Superpower. We all know the feeling of leaving a doctor's office and kind of feeling like we didn't get anything out of the experience that was useful. Maybe they're like, you're fine, drink more water.

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I know that's true, but I would never think to say it. Where do you get the things that are in your head? You're not a therapist. You know, you didn't go to school for that. That's not your thing. Like, you had a very, you know, I don't want to say domestic life, but you had like a, you had that kind of life, right? Where did all those, were those things in there?

And they were just like waiting to find a place for you to release them? Like, sometimes I say things, or I was interviewed next to Yuval Noam Harari the other day, and he's a historian and a philosopher. And like, the man said things that sound like the preface to a book that he hasn't written yet. I'm like, I don't talk like that. And I'm not saying you speak like this philosopher historian, but like when one reads your books, it's like, where did it come from? It's just you sit and think. Obviously, you've been to therapy and you have a 12-step structure. But like, it's just like, this is just, that's how you think. Yeah. Okay. Well, I actually believe there are some practical answers to this question.

Okay. And I've never tried to put them into words before. So forgive me if they're not organized. But I think that there are some benefits to the kind of severe introvert that I am. I truly believe, and I don't mean this funny, in a funny way, that while people are out there doing things, they're busy doing things. I don't know what the hell they're doing out there. It looks scary. Yeah, you're right. I'm just online and they're in stores, maybe. I don't know.

But they're doing things, social, you know. I have always been a stay homer, a thinker, a reader of things. I spend a lot of time. I think of it as like a gift I could offer to the world. Like while I, you go out and you have your real jobs. My job is to stay home and think so hard that I'm going to give you this sentence that's going to help make things. It's going to make sense.

It's going to make your brain make more sense. That's what I can do. So I think being someone who. has been a serious, dedicated, almost obsessive reader since I was six years old. I think being an introvert, being someone who's in the same gender marriage, I'm sorry, but like all we do is talk. Yeah, that's astounding to me too. I can't understand it.

Listen, we're two women. We're both seekers. We're both sober. We don't do anything. But talk, like, I was talking to my friend Liz, Liz Gilbert's one of our best friend. When she was in a relationship with Rea, her love who died a couple years ago, but we used to talk about what it's like to be in a same gender marriage. And she used to talk about it feels like those women who used to like go down to the river and just start beating out rugs and just beat them all day. That's what it's like.

Abby and I all day, just talking about subjects until we just want to die, really. But that doesn't sound attractive right now. No, I'm not trying to say it is. I'm just saying that's what it's like over here. Okay. Through that conversation, you simplify very complex things and get gems of sentences that sound very poetic and make other people have their life make sense. Right. And it's like, oh, wow, she just said that thing. And I'm like, that thing took me eight and a half months. Right. Like that thing. And also, you guys, I have a high level of anxiety about everything. But particularly when I am releasing a piece of art into the world, I am appalled by this situation where you make sense. something and that's the thing you made like untamed is the best i can say about the subject right

those are the words that i worked really hard on and multiple drafts lots of thinking lots of thinking and then the world's like can you go talk about about that book right for a year and i'm like but i'm just saying things worse than i said them in the book right so i have anxiety about that part of it about going out into the world and talking about the thing I made, which is very interesting. Like, painters don't have to do that. They don't have to make a painting and then go talk about their painting for a year. You just have to read, you just have to look at the painting and decide what it means. Well, my cousin's a modern painter and she has to write like a little paragraph, which sounds so painful to have to describe what all these lines are. Yeah. Just look at them.

Just look at them. Just look. How do you feel? That's how you feel. You write the paragraph after you look at it. That's right. Exactly. Right, exactly. Thank you. So when I was starting this process to go talk about the book, I would write down questions that I knew people would ask me. I would write paragraphed answers. I would speak the answers, you guys, into a phone and then listen to myself. It's embarrassing to tell you how much I would prepare. You literally were creating the tape in your head, as we call it. Exactly. So that I could be like one of those dolls where you just pull the string in the back. Yeah. And they're like, tell us what you think about sexuality. And I'm like, huh, let me think.

And it just like all comes out from when I. So some of it's not spur of the moment. It's just stuff I've thought about. And did that reduce anxiety? No, nothing reduces my anxiety. I mean, maybe Lexaprot medication does. I actually believe that breathing exercises, some of this. woo-woo stuff really does help me.

We talk about a lot of woo-woo stuff here. Because my feeling is like, I don't know what that crystal does, but I like having it there. So let's just let it be there. Yeah. I don't know. It's a lovely rose courts. I will take all the help I can get from any arena.

Correct. That's kind of how we feel. Has your relationship with that anxiety changed in the different aspects of your life? Yeah. I mean, yes. Yes. I mean, there, I have had a lot of time where I've tried to reframe it completely because, you know, nobody knows really what it is. What is it? I don't know. Part science, part spiritual, part personality. It's a big mix of things. I've had times where I've reframed it. I said, it's my fire. It's not anxiety. It's my fire. I really didn't help as much as one would hope. I actually, one of the things I find a little bit panicky. and depressing in the moment is that I don't feel like it's getting much better.

Like, I'm 45 now. Well, it moves around, doesn't it? Yeah. It feels like it should be, it just, the shoulds, I know are not real, but it just feels in my soul as if after as much work as I've done on myself as a human being and just with age, that it should be waning. But I don't find that to be true. Well, so this is kind of interesting because this is something that I've been thinking

about, I mean, I have that about pretty much everything about me and my existence. Like, how much more God do you want from me? Meaning, I've been in therapy since I'm 17 years old. And I've been in good therapy, you know, because sometimes people are like, well, you shouldn't need it. The kind of help that I needed, you need it forever, I promise. Like, I believe in traditional psychoanalysis. It's what I do. It's how I do. And I uncover revelatory things. weekly. I'm going to just say it. There have been periods in my life where it's more like monthly and you kind of like keep that maintenance going. But literally, you know, 15 years of the 20 years I've been with my therapist has been still protecting the things I didn't really want to talk about.

And like that's just my story. But, you know, then I like deal with the eating stuff and I deal with the, well, I grew up this way. So I need a whole program for how I grew up. And then I work the steps and I did the thing. And I like, it's a constant thing. And I thought when I got married at 27 that like, well, there's life. I did it. I did the 27 hard years when I was searching for my bashert. Now I just coast. Now I'm in neutral.

Oh, I want to have a baby before I'm 30? Let's do that. Oh, let's have another one. See what happens there, right? But throughout all of this, like I'm struggling tremendously, right? And then you get divorced and the kids are. four and seven, and we co-parent in a way that makes many people uncomfortable because we are best friends who no longer live together who are raising these humans. And we have, we treat them

like there are children, even though we're not a romantic couple. And that freaks people out. But like, here we are. And then it's like you tried dating and then, okay, that didn't. Oh, you tried that for five years. Why'd you stay five years? Okay, now we do this. Like, just that, it feels like a slog. And I often wonder, because people say to me, like, like maybe you're in too much therapy. You're talking too much. You have to just be, you're fine. And especially like people who are into cognitive behavioral therapy, like six weeks with a therapist, I recommend, and you'll be fine. And I'm certain that's not true because I've been tortured by my existence just as a human since I'm very young. Like I cried on my 10th birthday because I knew

I was going to die. And like, why are we celebrating? So I think for many people whose experience is not that I'm very happy for them, but I'm certain that there's still more, like, that I keep uncovering. And it's very astounding. And I don't know why everyone doesn't walk around freaking out. That like we exist and this is happening all the time. And there's beauty, but it's also terrifying. And did you ever just want to, are you ever in a restaurant where you just want to be like, everyone's just eating? Yes. As if there, as if nothing's going on. And you just want to be like, Are you all aware that we're going to lose everyone we love? Yes.

We're all going to die, maybe soon. And the future of the planet is uncertain and the future of civilization and our species. It's all very precarious. And you want to know, Mom, why I bite my nails? And why I'm eating so I don't have to feel anything? And that's why this whole idea of anxiety and depression. I'm a little bit. I mean, there has been a part of me since I was 10.

and started therapy that was in those offices where they would tell me that I was this or I was that and I'd be like, hmm, we'll see. Am I anxious or are you just not paying attention? I think I might just be paying attention closely, right? So I hear you. I hear you. I do think that maybe it's this concept we have of growing up, like when I grow up, I will, that we think we're going to hit milestones.

And we don't really understand that we're just going to be stuck with ourselves the whole way through. Well, and also, like, let's add kids to the mix. Because even before I had kids, when I would meet people who were like, I've thought about it a lot and I don't want to bring children into this world, I was like, God bless you for knowing that and following through on it. I knew that I wanted to make babies. I also knew that I came with a tremendous mental health challenge load, which is essentially what I've, been terrified about passing on to my children. And also like trying to appreciate like, we're all a spectrum. You know, maybe they'll get less than I've got. But throw children into the mix where like I was raised by parents who they did the best they could, put the support resources

and education that they had. I had that string too, my own. That's right. But the, the notion that they raised me with was, we know everything. We know everything down to when you're hungry, when you're happy, when you're sad, and when you're tired. So, like, I was raised to think that parents know everything. So I think that's why I thought that when I grew up, I'd be like them. I would know everything. So then you put me in therapy and you make me go through all the things that they made me go through, right? And then I have kids. And one of my favorite things is being able to say, I don't know how we're supposed to do this, whether it's divorce, whether it's law, Like I say to them, I never,

Right, I've never been your parent with you as old as you are and me this. I've never done today. Like, F if I know. And that doesn't mean that I'm their best friend. Like, I'm their mom. It's clear. But it's literally like, I remember we were supposed to get on a flight to San Francisco and I had a talk that night, like a paid talk.

And the flight kept being delayed, delayed, delayed. And I'm like, I got to get on an hour plane. But that freaking fog in San Francisco. And I was literally at the point where I was going to miss. the talk or make this gamble. And I looked at my two children who were maybe, oh, I don't know, six and ten. And I was like, we're going to call dadda, my ex-husband. We're going to call dadda. And he's going to pick us up. And we're going to rent a car. And they were like, what? I said, this is my decision. I don't know if it's the right one. I was like, this family

rolls by lowered expectations. And we all high-fived. We rented a car. We drove to San Francisco. I made it to the talk. And like, that was it. But that's a great example. Like, was I terrified, yes. Was I scared that I had to make this grown-up decision that I didn't even feel equipped to make? But I'd call my ex-husband to be like, what do I do come pick us up? Take me to a rental car, right? The notion of like I parent as an anxious person, that's how I have to function. Exactly. And we do our best. My little one is anxious. My older one just was born 65, so I don't know what to say about that. I have one of this. But I'm curious for you also, So, like, I think people worry that we can't parent this way, you know.

And I wonder if that's something you think about or kind of how you approach that. To even suggest that you can't parent this way means there's a way to parent. Like, that's even a funny idea. It feels to me like, you know, when you are talking about these ideas you had of how it was supposed to be when you were a grown up, how you were supposed to be when you were a parent. It's like how much of our angst is just that we're not experiencing what we thought it was supposed to be and like the delta between those two things, right? So for me, it comes back to the, what is the freedom of telling the truth about experiences

is what I would love for my kids to have is less of a delta between any idea of how it's supposed to be because they're dealing with who I actually am, which I think will maybe make it easier for them to deal with who they actually are. Totally. I mean, that's what I've found. Yeah. There's a great thing that Maim and I both have been told, which is like you unpack something very big or you find out some new information. And instead of being like, that's not what I thought or that's not what I wanted, it's like, oh, that's new information. How does that square with everything else that I may have thought, well, it's not that my thoughts before were untrue. They just may not have been relevant to what is. And this notion of changing our perception so that we can just be like,

that's new information. That's what is right now, which is actually quite, you know, I was thinking about this in both of your stories. You've both had many chapters of your lives. And how does the fact that you have had so many chapters change your experience of the present? Because in each one of the chapters you were like, this is my life. I expect this to be my life. This feels very real, very true. And yet that truth, which is very real in the moment, can also change, which doesn't necessarily mean that it wasn't true in the moment. But it does mean that it just puts a little bit of like, wait a second, what's next? Yeah, exactly. It makes you scared all the time. Like, I'm not even considering that this is real. Just to kind of flesh that out a little more and, you know, I'm curious,

your take on it, Glenn. And like, you know, when people ask, like, well, how could you be, I mean, especially like my parents who were together for 53 years until my father died. And I think she considers them still together. He died six years ago. But that notion of like, well, how could you love someone and now you don't love them anymore, right? Also, I was raised in a very traditional household. You know, my parents are first generation Americans and my mother was raised Orthodox, like very, very religious. So there was this notion that, like, there's one love. Let's just talk. Let's, let's use love. I like this. There is one love in your life.

And if you find someone and then you're not with them anymore, it wasn't love. Like that's how I was literally raised like that. And even today, like my mother, I just will catch her saying things like, oh, they were married 50 years. That was true love. And it's like, oof, you know. And getting divorced, which most people, I think especially if you're a celebrity person, they assume was your first solution to the problem. Yeah.

You just got pissed one Tuesday. Right. Like, why are they so free with it? You know, like people have no idea and it's not their right to know what my marriage was or wasn't like. But people had a lot of opinions about it, which they're allowed to. You know, thank you, internet. But that notion of like love is this, you know, it's this shifting, it is.

It is. It's a shifting existence. And especially for you who, you know, had a heterosexual kind of love, right? And a very kind of specific life carved out for you. that is still relevant and obviously had truth and produced, you know, the children that you have and that you parent together. But your concept of love has to share. I mean, everybody's does. Maybe you can speak to that a little bit either with, you know, sort of how does truth have relative value? And then how do we trust what our current truth is?

And in particular, I think love is a great example. Yeah, love and marriage. I mean, it's interesting because even when you say, you know, what is love? Can we, can that idea evolve? I mean, I think even the idea of what is a successful marriage. Like, when you're talking about your mother saying, oh, they were married for 50 years, that was a great love. I can't tell you the amount of people that I know who have decided never to divorce and have been married for 30 years. And I look at their marriage and think, I don't know what success is, but that ain't it. No, for sure. For sure. I mean, this whole thing,

the whole thing is relative. And you're calling it's success. Like our culture would call a marriage from the outside. Our culture would look at a marriage where they don't know, or maybe they do even, that both individuals inside the marriage are slowly dying inside and are full of contempt and have been slowly dying inside for decades. And they would look at that marriage and they would go, success. Right? After Love Warrior came out, I remember doing one of my first interviews after the whole divorce

and someone saying, do you ever feel sad that you worked? You know, there's so much in love worried about how hard you and Craig worked to heal your marriage. And does it ever make you sad that after all of that, your marriage still failed? And it was this really important moment to me because I was like, oh, that's so interesting. That is how, that's how some people see it. Like, there's nobody in that marriage thinks that it failed. Craig and I are like, holy shit. Like, we have this amazing life now, right?

First of all, he has girlfriends who actually want to make out with him now. Hot dig, right? We're co-parenting and sometimes that gets weird and sometimes it's amazing and sometimes it's like the kids are good. We met each other when we were both so effed up. Like we knew I was effed up. We learned he was later. But anyway, once again, I was more open about it.

Okay, we'll say that. But we worked, we ended that marriage so much freaking better and whaler and healthier than we started it. We have these kick-ass kids. We have this pretty cool, imperfect, but awesome life. Like, neither of us thinks our marriage was a failure in any way. Like, raging success ended, but raging success, right? So it's not even just what love is.

Sometimes I seriously think it's as simple as people just thinking a little bit harder. Instead of saying, like, what's a successful marriage and what's not? Just actually think about it for yourself. Is it just success? it lasts forever? My mother is saying, yes. I've just seen too much evidence to the contrary. Right? Well, now you're making her feel more special. Like, because like, it was perfect. That was the true love, you know. But it's not intimidating at all to grow up with parents who like, I mean, my parents were, they were stunners, you know, like they walked into a room and it was like,

you know, they took over the dance floor at every bar mitzvah and wedding. Like, so this was like, it's like, why did I ever even try to get married? Right. That's a tough. That's a tough one. Yeah. Yeah. We have to take back the notion of relationships as a failure. We have to take back this idea of it didn't work out. Like, none of that is relevant to people who are working actively.

Are you going to break up with me in front of Glenn and Doyle? Look, we came together to start this podcast. Does it? We got to stick to Glenn and Doyle. I just don't understand what else there could be for us. And now we talk about how some love was our annual. Oh my gosh. You're joining in with him.

No, no, no, no, no, no. I'm totally on my own side. Forever. Forever. But I do think that that is true. It didn't work out. What if it worked out perfectly? Well, this is our, goes back to our expectations.

We have huge amounts of cultural expectations, which are thrust upon most of us, which you two are called the patriarchy. No, it's other things. It's not, you know, it's other things. And then each of us individually has our expectations, are filtered or fueled by some of these larger social expectations. But then we're like, what should we be doing? How should we be acting?

How should this interview be going? It's constant and a source of an enormous amount of sickness. I want to stop you there. And just for Mayam's anxiety, I want to tell you that I feel like this interview is going so well. Okay? So I just want everyone to relax. I think this is the best interview I've ever done.

If I trusted you or anyone, I might believe that. when do you two have respites from the anxiety this is you know for people because we did a whole episode on anxiety we actually our first episode with grace hellbig myam did a beautiful 20 minute intro breaking down anxiety and the biochemical reactions that happen and how we don't understand the difference between real and imagine threats so we're constantly creating these threats and also we covered areas where our anxiety binds and when myam said it like it moves around it's like oh i thought if I just figured out this job thing, then I would feel less anxious. Or if I quit smoking, I'll be less anxious.

Right, which never, by the way, that is incorrect. No, then you know, that's not true. Or that I get out of this relationship and I finally wrap it up and I'm like, okay, you're coping. Like, then I'm going to feel less. And then always it's not the case. It moves. And so when I'm anxious, mine will say to me, like, are you really about that thing that

you're perseverating on or is it just like that's what your anxiety is bound to? So I'm curious because we all struggle with it. When in both of your lives do you like get a respite where you sort of feel like you're in the flow? And for example, it just kind of like you don't think about it. You know, it's walked out for a minute. I have one time where I can, I can only think of one time right now. But it's weird because I remember a lack of anxiety during the time that I was falling in love with Abby. and what I think is interesting is it was the most out of control time of my life.

Like I was like, oh, I mean, I had no more, no more reasons for anxiety than I had at that time. Like my career could have blown up. My family was blowing up. My whole, everything was just, my anxiety usually manifests as a desire to control everything, just every little. And people. and like it's almost like I get like witchily witchy in like how I'm trying to move people and control people. And that point, I think it was because it was so obvious that there was nothing that I could control that it was a relief. It just felt like one time in my life where I was like, oh, I guess we'll see how these chips fall because I have this feeling that the reason that the world is spinning.

and my family's not dying and my career is because I am controlling all of it. Right. Abby and I argue about this all the time. Like if something happens, I am convinced that it was my concern, worry, sweat, insomnia.

I earned that thing going well for us because I worried us into that good outcome. Okay. This is not Abby's worldview. That's a good course to start, towards good outcomes. You too can worry yourself into a good outcome. I understand intellectually that that is not the case, okay?

It's just that I don't really understand it on some level. But that was the one time where I felt like the world really freaking surprised me, where I felt like I wasn't witching any of it up. I didn't arrange that. I didn't control it. Falling in love with a freaking woman in the middle of my life, falling in love at all, like really for the first time. It was such a surprise from the universe that for a good long while afterwards, I was just like, okay, I'm just going to trust that

something's happening here that I don't understand. Then eventually I went back to controlling everything. Why do you say falling in love for the first time? Well, for sure, the experience, the intensity of the experience that I had falling in love with Abby, which felt to me in retrospect a lot like drugs or something is not something that I experienced before. I had had crushes. I had deep love that was based in respect and, you know, co-parenting and all of that. But I hadn't had the intense experience that so many other people. I used to think that it was kind of people were making it up until I was 42 and it happened

to me. I just thought I was so special, you guys. I just thought that I was having this otherworldly, I mean, my sister would try to at Glennon, this is what, this is what happens to people. Like, this is, you know, and I'd be like, no, it's just us. It's just us. So that was my first, my first time with that whole kind of mind-altering, personality-changing brain lit up kind of love. Many people don't experience that at all. I mean, for most of human history, women, women in particular were not, it wasn't considered necessary, you know, to feel that no one was checking in

with them, you know. In terms of the anxiety, because you did, you asked both of us. I am. Well, I have a far. I don't wait to hear your answer. You know, I'd like to say like when I sleep, but no, I have, I mean, I've been plagued by bad dreams most of my life and night terrors and, um, this is a fun one. And this actually really picked up during the quarantine, uh, waking up literally in a pan. And I don't mean a panic attack because I'm a neuroscientist and we're very careful with how we use that. But waking up, like feeling like a gun just went off in the street or like feeling like what is happening. Like that was happening a lot at the beginning of actually that was before, just before we decided to start this podcast because I was like if this is happening to me and I know what it is, imagine if this is happening to people and they don't know why they feel like a knife's to their throat when they wake up. So not when I sleep.

and I don't have an allergy to alcohol, but I've got the gene. I am certain that I am, I'm a couple bad decisions away from that being the thing that I am truly allergic to in a way that I acknowledge because when I'm not sober, I don't feel anxious, meaning when I've had, you know, a couple drinks, not just like, oh, a glass of wine with dinner, I still feel anxious. But there's a place where you get where you are, I mean, you're comfortably numb. And that is very dangerous. And it's why I have compassion for the alcoholics in my life.

Because that safety is addictive, right? Okay, so I'm going to push on you for one part. Yeah. Because anxiety, again, is a spectrum, right? We say, oh, we're anxious all the time. I had other things I was going to say, but okay. No, I'm done. But the reality is that it does ebb and flow.

And so, Ma'am, for you, I'm going to give you two scenarios. One is you're in the heart of a scene where you're like, it's not about prepping the scene. Like, the action's already been called. You're in that scene. You mean like an acting scene? Do you not lose. So first of all, do you not lose yourself. And then the second part, you're, I've been kayaking with you.

You're kayaking. She's a very aggressive kayaker. Everything's aggressive. I break things. I'm hard on life. You're like in the middle of the lake, winds blowing, you're kayaking. In that moment, you're not looking at you. You're not anxious, right? You're in like, because when we're very, very present, it's very hard to be anxious because anxious requires our attention of anxiety, right? Like, we have to be aware of the fact that we're anxious to register that anxiety. Now, we can, it can be operating as a slow hum in the

background, but it's not until we're like, tune into it. We're like, oh, that feeling that I'm like, Well, so this leads to the other example I was going to give is like, you know, when, I mean, I can think of it with a child, but you can think of it with a lover. When you're holding someone, it's not the whole time that you're holding someone for me that I don't feel anxious. But there's that moment, you know, like, especially when, you know, one of my kids is in a tender spot. And there's that moment. I mean, I'm going to talk you through it. It's not the moment when you're reaching for them and they're reaching for you. And it's not the moment when you first make physical contacts.

It's when they settle in. It's when they settle and you settle. And it's like you, that drop in, that's not anxiety. It's like a grounding. I actually have a moment like that with my dogs too. I know exactly what you're talking about. It's still anxiety before it and after it. But it's just this one thing that the dogs do where they lay on my legs and I can't move

for a minute in a good way. And it's a grounding, a deep grounding. So to me, that's not anxious. So, I mean, you could argue, I think Jonathan's, you know, possibly making a larger point that, like, when, I'm truly present, I'm not anxious. But the fact is, like, you know, for me, and I get asked this a lot, and especially in terms of this podcast, like, well, do you ever get over it? How do I get over it? Like, when do I graduate? And it's like we say in 12-step programs, like, you don't graduate.

That's not a thing. Remove the concept of graduating from your vocabulary. It's just that you now have this to live with. deal with and get through. Well, I think that's the point is, like, finding those moments, extending those moments where we feel some lack of, it's not that it doesn't exist, but it's not the overwhelming or predominant signal that we're processing. But it's tricky because if I extended those moments, I would be a reclose.

Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, I have to not indulge or not listen to my own. anxiety, a good amount of, or not be controlled or not try to, you know, my kid, I remember Chase, we're playing this game where you ask each other questions and then you're supposed to tell the real truth, which no one should play with their family. But he's, it was some question like, what would you change about whatever? And he said, I would change how my mom, how you have to, like make every environment so exactly right for you. Right? Like if we're at a restaurant,

someone's talking too loud or something, it's like, oh, oh. He said, I wish you could just be more easy, breezy and allow things not control environment. Jonathan and I have no idea what you're talking about. I mean, and it's sad. That's the kind of anxiety that is contagious. And then I had it. I grew up raised by a man who I believe had undiagnosed anxiety. And so it came out as just being extremely controlling of every environment, right?

So I learned to be on eggshells all the time. I learned to walk into rooms and scan for like, is that person going to be a problem? Are those people going to be a problem? Are those people's voice? Are those, is that person going to cuss? Is that like every, just to be such a high self-monitor? It's hypervigilant. Yeah, hypervigilant is Abby and I can walk into a room and walk out and I have had a completely

different experience than she has. I will explain it as having gone through a battle. Like the way I described the experience is like I have just made it through a war. Like, you know, and she's just like, what? You're like, I just went and we sat in a nice room and you're like, this person, that's a threat. No, but also people who don't know what social anxiety feels like. I mean, I routinely leave events crying.

Like every red carpet thing I've ever been to, I leave early. I'm fighting back tears. And there's a sensation when you're with people who don't get that, that's what it's like. It's like, why can't you enjoy your life? Why aren't you just grateful? Do you know how lucky you are to be at the Emmys? And I'm like, yes, I know how lucky I am. I need to go off.

I'm going to tear out these $300 extensions. I tear out my hair in the car. It's so fascinating. It's so fascinating. And now I feel depressed about the whole like moment of not feeling anxiety because when you think about it, I was talking about it in terms of, well, cosmically the universe surprised me. But really, I was kept, my mind was altered, which is what you described with alcohol,

which is what I did for the first 20 years of my life to numb the anxiety. Well, it's that there's the God-shaped hole. And that's what I mean like it moves around. And look, love, it is a powerful drug, you know. It is a very powerful drug. But yeah, I mean, shopping, sex, drugs, food. And that kind of makes me feel like all the people who claim that. that they don't need help, they make me mad.

That's like, come on, people. No, they just don't know. They're just not as far enough along to even know that they need help. Those are the worst kind of people. Yes, they aren't. Well, they have a lot of unconscious reactions to think. Do they, Jonathan? Not that I know about it.

It's unconscious. How would you know? Everything is smooth sailing over here most of the time. I have one more question because I know you have to go. I have one more question, though, about sort of being, you know, in a relationship with another human. And this isn't about the fact that you're both female. Like, it's not about that.

But just being in relation with another human, you know, when you both have stuff, does it feel harder? Because, you know, you're both in recovery. Is it helpful to have that shared language? Because I think a lot of people who are struggling with mental health stuff, especially, like, they often don't know what it's going to look like to be in relationship with another person. You know, can that person hold for you? If one person's upset, do you both get upset? And like, of course, that's kind of classical codependency. Like, I'm not okay unless you're okay. But there's a notion of,

like, you want your partner to get you and also be able to hold it together when you're falling apart. And, you know, this notion of like, is there room for both of you? And how do you negotiate that? Yeah, what an interesting question. I mean, I do think that there's room for both of us. I think that in our relationship, there's more space, time, energy taken up with my mental differences, whatever that you want to call them than there is for Abby. Sometimes I do worry about that. I feel like, especially lately, just, I don't know, ever since the COVID started, the whole food thing has gotten weird again.

And so there's a lot of talk about that and a lot of concern about that. And also, we have, we both have food issues actually, but we have opposite ones. So what that looks like in real life is that she will be more of an indulger and I'm more of a restricter. And so what she does to feel safe is the opposite of what makes me feel safe. And there's all kinds of triggering like just, you know, why can't you, why do you want a sip of my milkshake? Why can't you order your own damn milkshake? And then this whole situation is just about milkshakes, but it's not about milkshakes. It's because I actually can't order my own freaking milkshake.

And like to her, she's the last of seven kids. She only got like, she couldn't. Let her have that milkshake. Right, right. I know. I know. No, but I'm with you. I'm not going to order my own thing.

I'm going to drink half of yours and get mad that you're mad at me about it. Exactly. And you know what I'll do? I will do that tonight. Yeah. Okay? Like, I know what's happening and I will still do it. My kids, I steal their food.

It's so sad. Same. Same. And why can't I just order my own milkshake and have three sips then and throw it out? and throw it out. No, because I was not raised that way. We don't waste food. We steal food, I guess. We hoard food. We hoard food, but we, we do steal it. But we don't waste it. I don't know. It's this restrictive thing. So, you know, when I think the things that you fall in love with somebody about, there's so much about Abby and how big she lives and how much room she gives herself.

you can see it with the way she lit. Like how much that was so freaking magic to me. And now it's the stuff that holds my stuff up, like a mirror, right? Like I want to be able to eat like she eats and indulge like she indulges. And at the same time, those are the very things that are rubbing up on each other. What I will say is that I can see it being more difficult if I wasn't with someone who was, so freaking curious about all of this, I think curiosity is super helpful. Like, we are able to look at ourselves and it's not even personal anymore. We're just talking about our issues as if

they're not personal. We are able to do that. And it's one of our favorite things to do, which is just unbelievably helpful. You know, if I were with somebody who just was ever like, can you get over this. Abby never, ever, ever gives the energy of like, can we be done with this? That is what I have the constant feeling ever since I was little that I'm like too much, that I'm exhausting, but like, and so that's the, the energy that she has, which is like, this is amazing. Like she considers it fascinating. You're fascinating. It's a different way to look at this way of life that is helpful. One tiny comment is that, I think it's fascinating that the things that we initially fall in love with someone about

become the mirror that forces us to deal with our own stuff. It's like unconsciously or maybe subconsciously, we're like, oh, that person will help me, but it gets masked with they're so engaging, they're so unique. They have all these things that I don't have and I want them or I appreciate them and I'm drawn to them. And then you settle in and there's some turning point in the relationship where you're like, oh, wait a second. I have to look at myself and all these issues that get brought up.

That's like the rub. The chemicals start wearing off a little bit and then the work kicks in. That's it. If people were really smart, when they were falling in love, they would make a list of the things they're falling in love with and make sure they can deal with the opposite of that shit later inside of themselves because that's what happens. It goes from like, she's so free to like...

Why is she so free? Why is she so free? She'd pick up so much space. Yeah. God, quiet down. There should be an app. you could put the positive characteristics of your partner, and then it shows you what you're going to have to deal with it.

It will give you your therapy list for later. Yes, it will. Okay, last question. You know, you've done a lot of amazing things. And this is not like, where do you see yourself in five years? But I am curious, do you know? Like, do you plan to write more? Do you want to, like, for me, I want to retire.

Like, that's what I'm so exhausted just with existing publicly. And I love it. But the amount of brain power, like, I just can't wait until it's my turn to not have to think anything unless I want to, like, actively. I understand that vibe very deeply. So, like, I'm just, I'm curious, like, if you feel like, I've said enough words, I've done enough things. New Yorker reviewed me and my existence and, like, I'm going to raise my kids. Or do you have, like, I know that someone, maybe it's already in the works, like, is going to say, like, she needs a show. Like she needs her own.

Like, I mean, of course. Of course, of course, of course. I'm curious, though, like, what do you want? Like, do you know what you want for yourself? Well, I think it's funny that you mentioned the retiring thing. That is, and I wonder if that's like a manifestation of people with anxiety. All I do is live with, I live for the moment of being done. Whether it's like a podcast is done or like the thing, the one thing I have to do,

if it's making a freaking, do I have to order pizza tonight? I cannot wait until that phone call is done. Like, I cannot wait till the end of the day. I live for the moment of the couch. That's it. The other day, somebody was talking to me about the fear of death, and I was like, you know what? Maybe I should stop being afraid of this.

Like, I live to be done with things. Like, that's actually the ultimate couch Netflix moment. It is. It's the final rest. Like, no one can freak it. I don't have to show up anymore. So, like, what I'm getting out with that is, whereas Abby is often planning like these big things, my obsession is, when can we be done?

Like, I don't think that I want to be done. I don't think so. But I don't want to have to do anything. That's it. People keep asking me, I've written four books. They're like, you're going to write another one? I was like, I don't know that I need to do that right now. And people are amazing. It's like, people were asking me that the second untamed came out. And I I want to be like, do you think that I know, do you think that I, like, held stuff back? Like, do you think I know more things that I didn't put in that book? Like, that's all I've got. Like, that's all the things I know I wrote down.

That's it. I didn't save anything for later, you know? So I, what I will tell you is that I don't know, Myam, how you have done this for so long. I think finding the balance between, like, feeling like you're doing yourself justice. Like, you are showing up, you're doing what you were meant to do. you're putting out, you're meeting your purpose or whatever the hell it is. You know what. It's like you're doing what you came here to do, but also maintaining some level of like

not getting on the wheel of the relevancy wheel and the like, am I visible. Oh, that stuff. I'm like trying to release the pressure of, you know, being 15 pounds lighter, you know, which is what I quote should be by Hollywood standards. I'm trying to release the pressure of, you know, caring that I'm wearing the clothes that make me look like those other women, even though I'm not those other women. Like, those are, those are like my short term 2021 goals. Like, when can I wear all black and not have a stylist be like, we need you in more color? It's like, how about if I wear black because I feel the best and I like it?

And they make a lot of cool clothes in the color black. but for me and like when I started my YouTube channel which I started with a very close friend of mine he really wanted to like help me build it to show me that I'm okay because he felt so bad that I always felt left out you know anytime I see like freaking Natalie Portman do something it's like in my head I'm like why now there's not that left because Natalie did it right like crazy crazy things I'm like constantly feeling like I'm not as fill in the blank right so like that because so honestly my fear is that so many of the things I do you know once I got that YouTube channel it's like look you have 100,000 subscribers look you have 500 it's like but it's in here and of course I love that people feel

seen and they feel heard and I'm sure you get this to a much larger scale of like you get me I mean you got it from me you get me like you've articulated something that makes me feel better right but that whole inside of me it does not get filled so it's like I keep looking for the thing like oh we start a podcast. Like, oh, will this make me feel? And Jonathan's like, look, you're helping people. Yeah, but it's like there's, it's, it's in me. Like the work is trying to help me. Exactly. But I'm trying to help me. You're not always worried when you're sitting in your chair. That's good. I was terrified for today. But on that note, thank you so much, literally for gracing us with your presence and your awesomeness. And like, if I had known it would go like this, I would have been less

nervous, but that's not how life works. I told her. She doesn't listen to me, though. She can't. It's her job. She worried her way into this good outcome. Look, I worried my way into the perfect interview. That's right. For your, for your quick 2021 goal, I also finally learned that one thing that I can do is not worry anymore about what I'm wearing. So I ordered, I have like 30 black shirts in my closet right now. Most of my closet is black. I can't believe you said that. Yeah. They're all black tank tops just for cozies. and then only black shirts for any other thing. And I will never think about it again.

Right. Well, I'm also anorexic with, like, clothing, beauty, product. Like, I will, I will scrimp and scrimp and scrimp. And, like, yeah. So it's hard for me even to get new. So, like, now I just, I pay. Like, COVID had me pare down that closet. Like, it's embarrassing.

It's embarrassing. And, like. That black sweatshirt that she's wearing right now looks very cozy. I like that. If we're looking for, if we're looking for new. You know, he doesn't like the, what I hear is he doesn't like. He doesn't like the way I dress. She's skinny.

She looks great. I'm horrible. Thanks for being with us, Glennon. We love you. I'm glad I could help you guys. I'm glad I fixed your anxiety, Ma'am. Okay, I die now. That's it.

Thank you. Thank you. You guys are fantastic. Thank you. Myam, please email me and be friends with me. Thank you. I am. Okay, bye.

All right. Love you both. Love you too. That interview was so good. Mime has to take a nap. She's just not even able to comprehend how she was able to worry herself into having the best possible outcome

for that interview. I'm replaying it in my head. You're left speechless after that interview. No, I'm not speechless. I have a lot of things. I think I was really, really struck. I've never met her. I was really struck by

she seemed really normal in a good way. She wasn't one of those Hollywood elite types. She's not a Hollywood elite type. Like, she also has raised $27 million, like, as part of the charity organization that she runs. We didn't talk about that at all. We didn't talk about it. And actually, this is one of the reasons that my friend Abby, which is also the name of Glennon's wife. Different Abby.

That my friend Abby, like, was so into me learning about Glennon Doyle before I even knew who, like, I didn't know any of this stuff. This was a couple years ago. I mean, to say that she's humble, it's like it doesn't even, that's not even an appropriate word. She's a very special human. Like, there's something very. very special about her. What's interesting is she felt very present during our conversation. Well, and I think part of me is like, I wonder if when people hear like her say all the

things she struggles with, it's like, see, I don't need to go to therapy because you go to therapy and you still end up with all that stuff. You say that to me sometimes. Like, you've been working on this. Why are you still upset about it, you know? That does not sound like my voice. I mean, maybe that's the what my hears section, but I think I'm like, kind and compassionate. Oh, please.

carrying, concerned. No, but what I'm saying is sometimes people look at me or people like me who are in therapy and in recovery, all these things, blah, blah, blah. And it's like, well, you don't seem any better than I am, you know? I do think there is an aspect of the mind that is going to make up story and make up an anxiety for anything. And that finding the pattern, talking it out, you can do that as much as you want. but ultimately you continue to circle and circle and then the anxiety continues to move.

And at a certain point, we have to be able to say that whatever we're thinking right now is not a reflection of a capital R reality. This was a difficult episode for me. Let's unpack it. No. All right. That's really today. But this is where I was going with my curiosity around how can you plan five years in

future when your life has taken so many radical changes. Dude, that you were scaring her. I was just like, look, your life might change drastically in the next five years. That's not fair. And doesn't that cause a little bit of anxiety to be like, well, as far as I know, this is my truth. This is as happy as I'm going to be. Well, that's what she said. I wrote everything I knew in that book. But like, people have asked me, like, well, you wrote a book about having small kids. Like, are you You can write one about, you know, having teens. Like, well, I don't know. I'm not there yet, right?

Yeah. All right. I feel very, I feel a little out of sorts, but that was really, really lovely. If you want to ask Mime anything, you can do so at Bialikbreakdown.com. And if you want to tell her what a great job she did on this interview, you can also leave a little note there. And please subscribe to the podcast. If you haven't already, give us a five-star review.

It helps us make more. From my breakdown to the one. I hope you never have. We'll see you. next time.