Mayim Bialik's Breakdown - Hayley Williams: Mind-Body Breakthroughs, Weird Weddings & Intensive Therapy

Episode Date: May 11, 2021

Hayley Williams, the Grammy Award winning singer and founder of Paramore, shares her personal experience of ‘getting out’ of a traumatic relationship and the mind-body connection she uncovered during the process. Mayim and Hayley connect over their shared choice of combat boots and disconnected enthusiasm in their previous weddings. Hayley opens up on her recent journey through intensive therapy and how an integrated health approach has positively impacted her life. The conversation turns esoteric and mystical near the end with a discussion of intergenerational trauma and family system. BialikBreakdown.com YouTube.com/mayimbialik Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Got married once. I wouldn't recommend it, but I wore, like, a wedding dress, but I had to wear combat boots with it. I wore boots to my wedding. You did. But we don't want people to think that if you want to wear combat boots to your wedding, that that means it's not a good idea. No, please wear combat boots to your wedding. In fact, we're releasing our own line of combat boots for those people who know that they should ever be getting married, but do it anyway. Hi, I am Biolic, and welcome to my brief.

break down. This is the place where we break things down so you don't have to. It's my and be all this breakdown. She's going to break it down for you. Because you know she knows a thing or two. And now she's going to break down. So break it down. Today we're going to be breaking down really a smattering of fascinating things with a pretty darn fascinating person. Haley Williams. Many people know her from Paramore. Or maybe you know that she's the one who sings Can we pretend that airplanes and the night's guy like she's dark, that person? She talks about integrative health. She talks about going to like a therapy retreat where like you couldn't do anything except heal.

It's fascinating. I can't even describe it. We're breaking down. We're blowing her mind in this episode is what we do. Do you have anything to say, Jonathan? Oh, I have to introduce you. I keep waiting. You keep looking at me.

Should I do my own introduction? Sorry. But first, let me introduce you to my favorite shooting star, Jonathan Cohen. Oh, hi, Maim. Hi, everyone. Thanks for having me. Hi, Jonathan. How you doing today?

I'm pretty good. I was going to introduce you as my personal armor. Oh, that's a good one, too. A shout out to Haley's album Petals for Armor. I'm excited for this convo. Also, if you have a tendency as a listener to drop off early, you don't want to miss our little moment of family Constellation. near the end. Oh my gosh.

My goes nuts. Intergenerational trauma. I don't want you to think that we just spoke to Haley and she was like, oh, I went to a retreat and I healed so beautifully. That's not it at all. That's not her vibe. She is real. She is.

We talk about our weddings? Oh, it's true. She and I essentially had the same weird wedding experience. And I think we should have a caveat right off the front that we are not anti-wedding. We are not anti-marriage. Marriage is a beautiful thing. This happens to be a podcast, this episode, where three people who had marriages

and then no longer have them. Mime corrects my little terminology at some point in there. And so I want to make clear that we are not bashing marriage. No. But for me as a woman, it's very unusual to meet women who talk about weddings the way she and I do. It's very comforting. And I actually said a bunch of things that she was like,

wow, I really like this connection with her. I would totally want to hang out with her. her. I joke that she came on and in the first few minutes she was like, don't know why I'm here, don't know how I got to this podcast, don't know anything about these two, Jokers. Everyone feels that way. Everyone feels that way when they come on and talk to us. But by the end. But by the end, we were literally having family therapy for the three of us. We won her over and now we're going on tour together. Haley is a singer. She's a songwriter. She's a musician. She is best known as the lead singer of the band Paramore, which she started in high school, I believe.

Yes, with a bunch of dudes. Home school, she said. Yeah, she also mentioned that. She's from Mississippi. Happy to meet someone from Mississippi, because I learned how to spell it by saying M-I-S-I-S-I-S-I-P-I-P-I. And then she grew up in Nashville from, I think, 11 on.

Paramore has four top 20 Billboard 200 albums and a Grammy, a Grammy for their hit, Ain't It Fun. As a solo artist, she's also recorded, she recorded Teenager for the cult movie hit Jennifer's Body. She's also collaborated with some really awesome artists. She was, as I mentioned, featured on the single Airplanes by B-O-B, which peaked at number two on the U.S. Billboard Hot 100, mostly because I wouldn't stop listening to it.

The sequel to the song, Airplanes Part 2, featured new vocals from B-O-B and Eminem and was nominated for Grammy for Best Pop Collaboration with Vocals. She's been a real outspoken advocate of receiving mental health, care, and love. Oh, she also, I should say this. She has a hair dye company. She has amazing hair. And her hair dye company is called Good Die Young, as in only the Good Die Young.

Billy Joel's song. Very clever. What color will her hair be today? Let's find out. Welcome Haley Williams. Break it down. Hello, Haley. How are you?

I'm great. I just woke up from a nap. I feel like that's a rare occurrence, so I'm feeling. I'm a napper myself, so I do appreciate someone who... You undersell yourself. She could be the world's best and most experienced napper. I need tips, man. Well, I cut out caffeine.

I actually wasn't a particular caffeine addict, but the tea that I enjoyed drinking every day happened to have caffeine in it. And I still liked napping, but I did cut out caffeine during COVID because I was like, A global pandemic is not hard enough. Let's cut out the drug. So anyway, a friend of mine who recently realized I don't drink caffeine, she's like, oh, now it makes sense.

You're always napping. I just like napping. She's perpetually tired. Yes. Well, good morning and welcome. Thank you. We're really happy to have you. I didn't know what you'd look like because I've seen many pictures of you, and you look strikingly, stunningly different in every picture.

I've ever seen of you. Like, it's not just the hair color which can change, but you do really creative, beautiful things with makeup and lighting and just like, it's really cool. So this is what you look like, obviously, with a baseball hat after a nap. Yes, this is exactly, that is, this is what you get. This is what everyone gets after this last year. Yes, everything is on the internet about you, but maybe you can give us a little thumbnail sketch of kind of where you grew up and sort of like what you were, you know, like as a child. And in particular, you know, was there anything special about you in terms of mood, in terms of, you know, anything that might indicate some of the things that we are going to talk about in terms of mental health?

Oh, man. Well, actually, there were probably a lot of signs. It's just the world wasn't where we're at today. Culture wasn't where we're at today to talk about some of them. And I was obviously super young. So I think my awareness of everything was different. But I mean, my, entire memory of childhood revolves around the idea that I knew I had to get out because I lived in a small town in Mississippi. I was born there up until about 11 years old. I lived there with my mom and my parents were separated and I just was like, I'm not supposed to be here. Like I woke up in the wrong place and I got to go. And I had like a bad stomach. Like I always like if I had to go to like a a birthday party, I just would be in the bathroom the whole time.

Like, I'd be like, I don't want to be, I don't want a bowl in front of anyone. I don't want to give, we, you know, we didn't have a lot of money. I was like, I don't want to give a gift to this rich kid that I just showed up to their birthday, but I was just a nervous kid and shy and just apparently about to shit my pants all the time. Well, we call that a nervous stomach. It's one of Jonathan and my favorite indicators of like when people are like, I don't believe in mind-body connection.

It's like, really? Have you ever known someone who loses the contents of their stomach before insert important event? That's called the mind-body connection. That is exactly it. Holy shit, man. And I mean, I only just thought about this recently because I was talking, I was talking to someone about it and I was like, yeah, like anytime my intuition is like if something really is irking me or nagging at my gut, like a gut feeling, I'm just like, I don't know, I'm, I may shit my pants. I'm like, I don't know if that's, that's normal or what. And then I remembered, I was like, oh, my God, I was in a pretty unhealthy home life, you know, as a kid. Like, no one, it's just all starts when, you know, when you're a kid.

It all starts there. And were you musical in particular? Yeah, I was. I was really shy, though, like I said. So I would keep to myself about it. I wrote all the time to myself and would sing to myself. I played some instruments. Like I played the drums, which isn't really something you can keep to yourself.

But thankfully my dad was cool with that. Yeah, I was musical. And a lot of it I got from my dad's side, my grandfather, and my dad both sing and play things, you know. What was your journey like? So where was getting out to? Oh, Jesus. I just, I saw a Missy Elliott video when I was eight and I was like, that's, I got to go there.

Because like, I am not in the right place. It's like, I mean, I just knew, I knew it so deeply in my body that it felt ancient. I was just like, this is wrong. And I saw super duper fly, like, like that had come out and one of those song, one of those music videos was on MTV. and I was like enamored by her and she was like alien you know like the way she carried herself wasn't really it wasn't really a gender it wasn't like a fit you know and I felt so not I didn't want to be girly I didn't want to be what I think a lot of in the south it's like you know you go to fucking Cotelian and and all that stuff and I just I was like well I'm going to be like missy Elliot so I don't need any of this and getting out was ultimately when my mom and I ran away to Tennessee.

We knew some people that lived in town here in Nashville. And she was in an abusive relationship with my stepfather back in the day. And we just, this is where we came. And I've been here ever since. Wow. So you never had a New York stint, an L.A. stint. I did have an L.A. stint, actually. Tell us about it.

I tried to get away with it. It was like, it was like three years of my early 20. How did you find it? Well, a lot of my friends live on the east side. I lived in West Hollywood, like, literally between sunset and Hollywood on Ogden. Yeah. And I really loved my neighborhood because it was near where they filmed Halloween, and that's where I would walk my dog.

But I just was very lonely, you know. I didn't have, like, a real community in L.A. You did start youngish. How did you find kind of navigating. you know, that music space for you, especially as a woman, especially as, you know, a woman in a, in a culture that has a lot of kind of ideas about what women should be. What did that feel like? And did you have a notion of that, like, impacting either self-image or kind of how you saw your mental, you know, your mental wellness? I made myself small a lot and kind of dumbed down

any skill or talent that I had. Paramour kind of happened in the wake of Avrilavine and and Kelly Clarkson having her like kind of pop punk moment, you know, like there were a lot of women that were becoming really, really popular and very, you know, commercially successful. And we were over here writing songs in Taylor's Garage and trying to, you know, be a punk band or like a heavy band. But we kind of really, it was like perfect time for us, you know, to try and go get a record deal and like do this thing. I mean, even though we were kids, we were super ambitious.

And I feel like I have to credit that movement and that little era of time with all those women that were doing some form of, you know, what people thought was punk or pop punk at the time. We sort of got wrapped up into that. And it really was twofold, though, because I really hated being compared to other girls that were around my age. Then I started getting the Gwen Stefani comparison. and she was a good bit older than me. And I was like, I just am a girl. That's about all we have in common. I don't, you know, but I mean, it really took me until about 24, 25 to be okay, I think,

with being female. Like, and really like learning, okay, well, what does that mean to me? Because I think that it does mean something different to everyone. And I was just very, like, God, like, even at my, my. wedding. I'm not married anymore, but got married once. I wouldn't recommend it, but I, um, I wore like a wedding dress, but I had to wear combat boots with it. I wore boots to my wedding. You did? I wore knee-high white dachs, yeah. Oh, well, that's actually way queer. That's actually, that sounds sick. Do you, okay, I have a question for you. I didn't think the conversation

would go here, but let's talk about it. I want to know, like, for you, psychologically, was that like a fashion choice? Was there something happening internally? No, many things happening internally. I was, you know, I was never, I was a person that, okay, let's talk about it. Let's go.

I was a person that always knew that I wanted to be partnered. I mean, in fact, some might diagnose it as a sickness, the level to which I pursued being partnered. Not to say I hunted people down, but I'm a person who like, I really like, I thrive in a domestic environment. Yeah. However, you know, never looked at a bridal magazine.

Never was, like, that just wasn't me. And, like, didn't, like, picture my wedding day. If ever I pictured my wedding day, it was only because of, like, the cure. Like, what if I did a cure-inspired wedding? You know, like, what if that was my wedding? Like, just like weird, weird wedding things. And so when it came to, you know, and I, I mean, the person that I married and divorced, you know,

many years later, we were together five years before. So it also, like, it wasn't like, it was like, oh, this is fun. Let's get married while we're still in love. Like, we were already well into, like, a partnership. No, but you know what I mean? Like, it wasn't that like, oh, my God, this is so much fun. Let's get married in the first month, which can work out for some people. In any event.

The first dress, I went to a Victorian weird store in Santa Monica. First dress I tried on. That's the one I bought. I was not curious about other dresses. It wasn't even a wedding dress. It was a lace 1920, like, kind of party dress. It was awesome. It was really wicked.

Anyway, my mother ended up wearing a wedding dress to my wedding. Thank God. Someone had to. So, yeah, so it was a very, like, I'm different. I'm weird. You know, like, just because I'm getting married. like don't think I'm gonna conform to what you think. And I'm very traditional, a lot of ways.

And also like I'm, you know, I mean, I had a religious Jewish wedding. Like, I'm a person who really is like, I'm very faith-based. I'm, you know, like, I'm part of the patriarchy as part of a person who's, you know, Jewish. And I get it, meaning my religious, you know, my religious underpinnings

are based as everything is in the patriarchy. But it was definitely like, I'm comfortable. I'm a comfortable female. I don't need to kill. I didn't diet like I didn't do a fast for my, like none of that. I mean, maybe I should have. I don't know. Okay.

So what was your experience? Well, I didn't diet either, but I think I just wasn't eating. I just wasn't feeling too good. I, you know, I'm super similar. It's kind of eerie listening to someone else kind of say stuff like to me that feels like it's also coming from within me. Because I was like very similar. I was in a relationship for a long time and probably knew at some point like, no,

time to get off this ride, but I kept going. And I had never given a shit about a wedding, a dress. I don't even think I planned any part of mine to be honest with you. But I digress because the main point of this for me was to tell you. I wore boots, like combat boots because I literally think there was a part of me that I was going into some sort of a battle. Like I was like, I don't know. And they were so heavy because, you know, they were the docks that are like platform. And it was like, I was like, doom, doom coming down the aisle.

Look, it's Godzilla getting married. Yeah, but it just, you know, like, look, no shade. Love is a battlefield, you know? Love is a battlefield. It just wasn't good. That wasn't a good thing for me. Okay, but we don't want people to think that if you want to wear combat boots to your wedding, that that means it's not a good idea. No, please wear combat boots to your wedding is what I'm saying. In fact, we're releasing our own line of combat boots for those people who know that they

should ever be getting married, but do it anyway. It's co-branded. All I think is that you need to know why you're getting marriage. Maybe that's... Well, yes. I'm super curious about that point because all three of us have been married and decided that that wasn't for them and left marriages. Oh, my. Wow.

Wait, wait, hold on. You just said left marriages. That's not... Hold on, Jonathan. I'm a public person. You can't say that. And she's a public person. You can't say that.

You are no longer married, so there's a leaving of some kind. No, that's not correct. That's still not right. Okay, correct. A dust for the record. The three of us, the three of us for a variety of different reasons, we were married, we're no longer. Not anymore. Okay.

So back to where I was going. I'm going towards the intuition, the knowing of, wait a second, where you said, like, you were on a ride, you were like, I don't think I should be on this ride anymore. And yet a lot of people end up on that ride knowing. and having really strong premonitions that maybe this isn't something that I want to do. And we're sort of breaking down like, oh, yeah, it seems like at about this time in a relationship, like that's what people do. They get married, which never cures anything. Well, honestly, it kickstarted a lot of learning for me about the mind-body connection

because I, you know, I just wasn't healthy physically or mentally for a large, part of that period of my life. That story, my, you know, throughout my 20s into getting married. And I've started to have very physical manifestations of that gut feeling. The first time I ever saw an integrative doctor was because, like, I was getting these like welps on my wrists and along certain places that, you know, this person kind of said some things to me that was like, oh shit, this doctor is telling me my life and he just met me. And he's guessing that there's, that what he's guessing is true. I'm just not maybe copping.

I'm not like fessing up to much of that. But he didn't wear army boots to his wedding like I did. No. What did you wear Jonathan to your wedding? Oh, this is the best. Yeah, I tell this story and mine is like, oh, it sounds so romantic. I say it and it has the completely honest. Also, wait, he's also he's Canadian, which all of a sudden becomes hot when he talks about the rain and hiking boots.

I eloped. I chose not to have anyone at my wedding primarily because I couldn't resolve. There was too much love. It couldn't be contained. No, it was a logistical nightmare and I didn't want to plan an event and I didn't want to deal. You know, I've said this directly like to my mother who may or may not be listening. I'm sorry, Mom. She got extremely mad because her entire next five years was she wasn't invited to her son's wedding.

And my narrative was that it was an absolute, like, I was totally overwhelmed. It was, like, I'm like, what is the least amount of effort that I can do to get this thing done? Hiking boots. That's the least amount of effort. We, like, we lived in Victoria, British Columbia at the time. Yeah, you did. We, like, went out to a lookout. We had two of our friends, Laura and Alana, one of them who is no longer with us. And we had our post ceremony dinner at their house.

They cooked us dinner. And like that was it. And it was like super. It's almost like it didn't happen. God, I wish I could say that about mine. Well, being a public person sure is different when you do that. I mean, I, yeah, I did it. Damn.

Anyway, why didn't I meet you guys sooner? I'm just trying to figure that out. What were we talking? My Ambialx Breakdown is supported by Superpower. We all know the feeling of leaving a doctor's office and kind of feeling like we didn't get anything out of the experience that was useful. Maybe they're like, you're fine. Drink more water.

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Head to Superpower.com. Use the code break at checkout for $20 off your membership. And after you sign up, they'll ask how you heard about them. Make sure to mention my ambiotic breakdown to help support the show. Mindbody connection, intuition. Jonathan's, yeah, hiking. Living also, I think, so I had the experience that it was about five years, three and four years after I got married where things were like super stressful and I began to have

they weren't welts but they were I don't know what to call them but they were like marks that started on my torso and literally one of them started and my stress just kept getting higher and higher and higher and eventually my entire torso was covered in these splotches and I was also seeing an integrative doctor and they're like you know you are like just out of out of your mind stressed and it was this conflict of knowing that my life wasn't going in a principle and in an alignment that felt okay for me and me feeling trapped and constantly not understanding how I could care so deeply about someone and want the best for them, but not want to play the role that they wanted me to play or that I was currently signed up for and how to like transition out of that and it just felt and as I began to deal with that,

this whole thing on my torso began to resolve itself, but it was like this powerful external signal of like wrongness that I couldn't get my head around. Yeah, because your body will make you listen. And then I read, your body keeps the score not long after all of this because I was just like, holy shit. It felt like once I started to pull the thread, it was just this ball of yarn that was never ending. And, you know, like so many weird things happen with my health.

And I still feel like I am trying to make sure I'm staying on top of it because I don't want to go back down this path where I'm so disconnected from the body and from my gut intuition and all that that I, you know, come back to a situation like that. That's so real what you're talking about. Like I try to talk to like some of my family, like my dad or my granddad like super southern dudes and they're just like, what? Go go get some tal and all. You know, like it just there's not like there's so much spiritual and soul like realm to health and mind-body connection. All of that is spiritual. And that's actually what I was going to kind of get into next because, you know, for people

listening, much of this, I'm being super honest with you, much of this might sound to people like, well, there's three elitist white people talking about integrative doctors and mind-body syndrome and all this stuff. As someone who grew up, I mean, I didn't grow up with money and I grew up in the Kaiser system because my dad was a public school teacher and that was the insurance. that we were given. And, you know, sometimes it was hit and sometimes it was miss. And, you know, this is not to say there's anything wrong with a large hospital system, but anytime there's a large bureaucratic organization, you know, it's hard to just like get someone on the phone, get the same doctor, get a call back, like just basic things. And it's very, very difficult to

realize that many, many, many, many, many people have to navigate a system just to get basic health care that is so, so devastating. However, one of the most interesting aspects, I think, of our culture's conversation about these kinds of things, which is starting, is to try and remove it from the realms of like, Eastern philosophy says, you know, which it's true. Eastern philosophy's been saying all this stuff for thousands of years, like Irobedic principles, which come from India, like, that stuff actually does have some science to it. Like, it's not just, you know, but the notion that many, I'm not going to say all, I really want to say all, but I'm not going to be that extreme. Many of the things that plague us, both physically and mentally, in many cases,

can and should be addressed from a naturopathic perspective, meaning the foods that are available to us, the economy that we live in that makes certain foods available to certain populations more preferentially than others, like those are things that impact our physical health, but also our mental health is connected, our mental wellness is connected to what we eat and how our bodies function. So what you get is that people don't want to talk about it. And I happen to be a vegan person, which, you know, I try not to talk about too much because it annoys people. But I'm a vegan person for whom we know that all of us should be eating more fruits and vegetables and grains and whole foods, right? And the notion that if that were more of a priority to our government, to our health care

system that we could literally prevent things like high blood pressure and things like, you know, type two diabetes, things that we know, you know, are linked to what we eat. So what if we were to approach mental wellness that way to say these are the practices like teaching children to meditate and breathe correctly is not something for rich white children. It's something that every child should be taught how to calm their system, you know. Like it's just like that's a huge, It's a human right. So it's really interesting that we can talk about it at this level and be like, well, my integrative doctor says this.

You know, like Jonathan's like, I'm taking these supplements for my stomach. And like, well, it's like, that's fantastic. But also, there is an enormous amount that is wrong with people that Western medicine has no approach for. When you have, you know, spots all over your torso and they're like, well, take this steroid. Oh, they'll just rub cortisone all over you. Yeah, just rub the cortisone on you. Just smear it. There's this massive influx of autoimmune diseases across society, and people have no idea what's causing them.

And people's immune systems are literally attacking themselves. I have a thyroid condition, yeah. So like it's not so hippie or out there to be like, well, there's a massive gap that Western medicine isn't filling. And so what is wrong with us? Are we all just broken? Or there's some other things that we're not considering? Well, we are all just broken. If you learn nothing from this podcast, except that we're all broken.

And that's the end. Thanks, everyone. for listening. Thanks for listening. Bye. Hey, Kaylee. No, but I was diagnosed. I have an overactive thyroid, which is unusual because I'm terminally unique. And my overactive thyroid kicked in, you know, I was in my early 20s and I was very,

very, very sick. You get very sick if your thyroid, I mean, you get sick for a lot of reasons, but I was very, very sick. And the Western solution was shut off her thyroid. And they do that with a lot of pills. it took 17 pills a day. Like that was my regimen. And the fact is, Western medicine was absolutely right.

If you shut down the thyroid, it's going to stop going haywire. But it had absolutely no impact on why my thyroid was out of control. And for that, I did choose to say. And I didn't have money then. Like I was literally on student health care. Like I literally was trying to figure out like, but what's going to have? happen if you take me off these pills. We haven't changed anything about my body. And that's really the difference between, you know, kind of this integrative approach that you're talking about

and Western medicine, which is like, if I could count the number of times I've tried, someone's tried to give me cortisone in my life. Jeez, I know. They love to give you cortisol. It's their favorite. What do they do for your arm or your wrist welds? Cortisone. Until I went, until I went to this integrative doctor because I was like, I went to like a like a dermatologist or someone. I was like, it's on my skin, so I'm going to go see a skin doctor. And it literally burned it. It made it worse.

Yeah, strong stuff. Shit, man. Like, at this point, I might have well just eaten it because I would have done about as what. Are you a Louise Hay person? Am I a Louise Hay person? Do you know who Louise Hay is? No, I feel.

Let's lower my eyes. No, no, no. We're going deep. We're going deep. Louise Hay is a one. woman who you could Google. She's 7,010 years old. No, I don't know how she, how old she is.

She's been around and in kind of like holisticy circles. Okay. She's known for a lot of beautiful writing and very kind of positive psychology stuff, but in particular she talks about the parts of the body and what they mean. Oh, yeah. And so she literally like, you can just pull up the Louise Hay essentially encyclopedia. Oh, yes. And it's alphabetical.

So like my spots are like knees, ankles, back, which is all like, Who will stand up for me? You know, things like that. Like I can't. And after my, things after my divorce, my ankles started going out because I literally could not stay. Like it felt like the ground was being pulled out from under me. It's fascinating. So I kind of want to talk to you more and see if we can get, if we can see if Louise Hay was right.

I'm looking. Jonathan, do you know what wrist means? I don't. There's also another guy, Michael J. Lincoln, who does this book, Messages from the Body, which Louise Hay's book is like a couple of inches thick. He has like a double volume of 400 pages. No, we're going to abbreviate it. Really next level anyway.

But let's stick with the Louise. Also, we need to hear how the wrist situation resolved itself because maybe there's a whole story there that we need to get into. But let's start with Louise Hay. Oh, whoa, whoa. Yeah, I want to hear that. I kind of want to hear more. The wrist started after the relationship.

The wrist thing was right after my engagement. Oh, there we go. Interesting. Stop it. Okay, hold on a second. All right. You know what? I'm going to tell you what Louise Hay says.

And we'll see. And people are going to be like, she's going to say whatever Louise said is right. It's movement and ease, meaning constriction. Jesus. Stop it. She just got her Louis Hay moment. That was it. Also, hands are about like what we grasped.

respond to what we hold on to. And so wrist connected to hands are like we're holding on to things that maybe aren't, we're not supposed to, so you could get risk constriction. Oh my God. Yeah, the movement thing I definitely like, I just sort of heard. Let's hear how this lands for her. I mean, okay, to,

this is terrible because like my my past life, you know, may listen to this and then I'm, I've just, but you know what? Literally fuck it. I, I, um, Okay, so constriction

Two things happened I mean I was Oh my God, I can't believe this is I'm gonna say all this Wait wait but also hold on I'm gonna protect you briefly Okay Some people might feel more constricted

than others even in any engagement Like you don't have to You don't have like Jonathan's like But I want to know what happened Like it doesn't no no no no I'm just gonna say that you may be a person who might have been particularly sensitive to this notion of a lack of movement. You know what I mean?

Like, I don't want you to feel like you have to be like, well, I felt trapped. No, because marriage is a, it is. It's a trap. I mean, you know, in some ways it's a beautiful trap and it's a beautiful place to be held. But if you have conflict around that or if that's a thing, it's just fascinating that for you, it might have come out as this lack of movement. or shift in movement does not feel right in my body. Well, I mean, nothing really felt right in my body at the time, but it was a very not great relationship.

It was a very, there was some cheating that happened. There was some shit that went down. And I, yeah, I like, I just was, I was trapped. I was trapped for a lot of reasons. And I write about, like, we were writing an album, him at the time, around the same time. And I kept asking Taylor, who's, I'm in the band with and we write all the songs together, I was like, you know, you keep sending me these happy tunes and I'm just like sad as fuck. I need you to send me a sad song. And when he did,

it was a, yeah, it was about feeling. I sing about being, kind of seeing the world from the window now. This is my place now. I'm stuck here in this place, right, inside the window. this is my view. It doesn't matter if I travel or do things anymore because that's so movement. That's crazy. But yeah, I mean, a lot of things have. This is why I read the book that Body Keeps a scorebook and started to take more seriously like integrative medicine and all that because I had so much going on with my physical

that was because because I had not accepted a lot of things I think internally. my body was just begging me to like wake up. You know, I had a series of years, and honestly it was after my divorce for about seven years after where I was either having surgery or recovering from surgery. I had four hernias. I had vocal cord surgery. Like literally I lost my voice. Oh, geez.

I mean, like it was taken from me. So I had like a whole and, you know, it caused a tremendous amount of reckoning for me because one of my defects is I'm an overdoer. And my drug, my drug is work. Yeah, totally. And it's not just work. It's, it's running from every other feeling because work. Yeah.

You know? It's like, emotions can't hit a moving target is like one of my terrible mottoes. But, oh dear. That's so good. It's so good. Well, it's like that, that's what it was. It was just like, watch me, you know, watch me work.

And, you know, if I don't work, then I'll try and like eat. And if I don't, you know, and if I'm not, dating the guy. If I don't have the he, like, if I don't have that to fix and mold, then I'm just going to, like, work and, like, watch how productive. I don't need a man because I'm so productive, you know? Yeah, it's right. Totally.

No, but when my body started saying no, I didn't listen. I mean, I'm just going to be honest. Like, I listened in snippets. It was talking from a long time ago. Like, it was talking from a long time ago. And, you know, it's kind of like, if you believe in a higher power, it's like, okay, you're going to keep giving me this message until I do something about it.

Yeah. It was a reckoning and I think my vocal cord surgery was, you know, that's a big one. When you can't speak for three and a half month, like literally no speaking, you know, it felt like the universe said, sit down and shut up. Yeah. That's kind of what I did. So I'm actually curious, like looking back, you know, you had said like your body, you know, it's kind of like a toddler.

It'll start by just being like, mama, you know. And then it'll be like, mama, and then there's like a tug. And then like things get thrown. And then you punish the kid when they were just trying to get your attention. Anyway. So it's like I get mad at my body. Like how could you betray me? And it's like because we were trying to tell you, you know.

We tried to tell you this, that, and the other way. For me, like a spiritual solution has been, you know, part of that kind of recovery. But I'm curious kind of what it looked like. What it's sort of the, I don't want to say breaking down, but what did the sort of, I don't want to say disintegration. These are all ugly words. But, you know, what did that sort of reckoning look like? And then, you know, how do you come out on the other side of it?

Well, I think I'm still coming out on the other side of it, you know? Because like you said, you said like seven years it felt like you were, that was a period of your life. I'm, you know, I'm only, I'm, I kind of track it by Paramore albums because for me, so much of my life has been wrapped around these album cycles. I think that's true for a lot of your fans as well. Oh, God. Yeah, I mean, the last album that we made came out in 2017, and I feel like I wrote all the songs with the guys, like before I was diagnosed with depression and PTSD,

before I asked for a divorce. But if you listen to it, you would think I had just been diagnosed with these things, and I had just kind of accepted all these. but it was such, there was such a disconnect, you know. So I was writing unconsciously these songs, kind of doing my job, having fun with it. But the first sign of healing for me, I remember my mom saying like,

oh, I haven't heard you laugh like that in a very, very long time. And that was, you know, a year into touring after laughter. And then, you know, we came off the road. We decided to have a short album cycle. and much of that album cycle I spent drinking a lot and just kind of partying with my friends that I grew up in this band with. It was kind of like a free-for-all

because now I'm not tethered to this unhealthy relationship anymore. I'm with my friends from high school, you know, and we're just hanging out, traveling the world, meeting our favorite bands and meeting cool people and doing cool things. And, you know, it was like, to your point, just distraction, distraction, distraction. And it was really when I came home from After Laughter two and a half years ago

that everything kind of fell apart. I had to go to like a therapy like like retreat kind of situation. You know, it was it that's where I learned about EMDR and oh you have oh you've done the whole thing. Got it. Dude. Yeah. And and and you know it's it's like I'm trying to send Jonathan to one of those. He won't go. He keeps showing up here. This is this is better than I would have. have done before I went to that therapy thing. Like I, I was so resistant, so I get it. Did you go voluntarily to this thing? Or did they put you there? I actually went, I went voluntarily. It's, my mom had been trying to get me to go for years, you know, and my mom does, my mom teaches at Belmont school. She teaches like a emotional wellness and emotional intelligence course for people

that are going into the industry. Wow. Which is so badly needed. I think for anyone young coming into entertainment, whether it's management side or otherwise, you know, it's like it's such a social and psychological game and you have to be, you have to be really on it about protecting yourself. And I just wasn't. And so I finally let my guard down and went to this thing.

And it really, I did not feel. I don't know. if you have this experience with certain therapies or modalities, but like I didn't feel like it did anything until like two or three months later. And then I had a moment where I was like, wait, I didn't just process that the way I normally would have processed that. You know, and so I mean, I'm still very much in that phase of my life where I'm like, oh, I'm used to use this hand to do this, but now I'm using this hand. Like I, you know, it's a lot of discomfort. So take us back to sort of this diagnosis moment because, you know, obviously people talk about

depression and we've talked about it here. And, you know, because I am trained in the neuroscience world, you know, I tend to be very specific and very clinical about things, meaning, you know, we've talked about the differences, for example, between grief and depression. There's depression also in terms of, you know, bipolar disorder, and then there's just regular depression. Then there's what people like me live with, which is just kind of disthymie. you know, meaning like I just kind of operate underneath what most people would consider is like normal, happy. Like, it's not necessary.

You know, it's a lot of black nail polish and army boots like all year round. Can you tell us a little bit, you know, about what it looked like for you? And again, I hope you know we're not asking because we want the dirt. Oh, no. I don't. Yeah, I mean, for a lot of people who listen to our podcast in particular, many people are literally identifying for the first time. Things that they've known for years.

just never kind of, so what did it look like for you? And then who, who gave you that label? Did the label help or did it hurt? No, actually the label helped because I, you know, I had written lyrics to the last record and I, we had reviews come out before the album it was even officially out yet. There was a couple of reviews came out that were like, Paramore wrote a depression bop album. And I was like, what? You know, and I was really careful. I didn't want to use the word depression. I felt like this is a a clickbaity kind of word in a time in our culture that, you know, people are, it's just that word gets thrown around a lot, right? So I didn't want to be one of those. I didn't want to add to that noise. So it took, you know, it was like two years after, almost two years after

we had written that record that I was officially diagnosed. And it was kind of the same thing. It was like, you just don't, you operate kind of low and you may always need a little bit of assistance. You know, it doesn't mean that I can't strive to like find, meet that goal alternatively besides medication, but I've needed medication. And, um, thank you for sharing that.

It's very important for people to hear, you know, yeah. I, you know, I, like, I think a lot of creatives are scared of different types of medication because,

you know, like, if it affects your mind, like, how is that going to affect your creativity? Sure. I will say that to me, there is a,

sadly, there's a comfort that I get from, darkness and sadness and melancholy, you know. It's stuff of great art. It's very delicious to me. And I have found that when I'm treated the right way, when I'm treating my depression the right way, I still have access to my sadness, which is so vital to me to feel all the spectrum of my feelings.

But it does not wake me up in the morning. I get up in the morning and there's like possibility again. And there's like, oh, what do I want to do today? Or what do I need to do today? Let me, you know, get myself going. When I'm at my lowest and not operating correctly, I literally don't want to get out of bed. I can't really move. So, yeah, so I'm a big advocate for, you know, if it feels right to you to take medication,

then you just go for it. And it was very freeing to be diagnosed because it's like, God, when you can't name a problem, problem that is so agonizing for me when it's like, it's right there and I can't name it. It's right in front of me. So it was liberating. And so this intensive therapy, how long were you at this place? I was there almost a week. Was it really pretty? I always imagine those places are really pretty. It was pretty. It wasn't like, you know, like I've heard about those places out in Malibu and stuff. Okay, it wasn't like that.

Okay. No, it was, you know, it was near here, you know, where I live. But, but yeah, I think more than anything, it was like permission to shut down, permission to have a break. I didn't have my phone. Oh, I love it. Yeah, it was really, especially when coming off of tour, which that can be such emotional whiplash anyways.

It was, I don't know, it was all at once, like, it felt scary and all. awful because it was so new, but then at the same time it was like, oh, this is permission. This is permission to feel, permission to flatline if I need to for a little bit and not, the expectation isn't here that I have to, you know, fucking dog and pony show my way through it. What's it like to be a public person in that arena? Do people, you know, obviously you're recognizable. But, you know, that's sort of one of one of my greatest fears just as a human being. who is a known person is like,

which is why it's so scary to do what we do here because it's like, here are all the things about me, you know? Right. It's amazing. But in particular, like, that is a fear of mind that, and, you know, there's been more than four times in my life where I've thought of going away. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, more than four, for sure, but like four, you know, in the last...

We? Five. You know what, Jonathan? That's not helpful. I'd say in the last handful of years, yeah. There's been, you know, I don't want to say once a year, but there's been, you know, something, you know, over the last, you know, five to 10 years. But that's, like, always one of my fears because, of course,

we have the right to break down like everybody. And we have the right to do all. But, you know, there's a level of being exposed, which is true for everyone. And also, you know, if there is that notion of, like, being observed, like, is that a thing? I mean, I listen, I, you're speaking words straight out of my, like that this is how I feel about it too. And I have, you know, I have other friends that do music or do it that have done things like this and they don't have any problem. They're just like, whatever, everyone's fucked up. We just go and we just talk.

But I actually went and just did it by myself. Like there was meant to be a group thing. but I like and again this goes back to what you're talking about earlier I realized that that's not really something that everyone can just do but I was terrified to be around people to talk about my story to and you know I don't know at the time anyways if I would have even been able to get to where I needed to get if there had been someone watching because I know that no one care I know that really everyone's just thinking about themselves I know but I still worry I worry about I mean, I worry for you, but I worry for me.

I worry for all people who are being vulnerable in front of other people, even if you're not a public person. But for sure, it's something that I, you know, that I definitely think about. Yeah. Well, I mean, I just think that fortunately now I think there's more and more resources for it. And, you know, regardless of the job and what you do and why someone may recognize you, I do think that there are just tons of people that, you know, even like college-age, kids that are just going to school and stuff that need that one-on-one safety, you know.

And there's an organization in town in Nashville called Porter's Call that the guys and I have used off and on since we were young. And they do free therapy for writers, musicians, people that are in the arts and doing creative work. And especially for like, you know, artists that don't support themselves well yet. And I think that, you know, knowing that there's resources like that that are cropping up, that's really encouraging to me. So the intensive kind of therapy situation obviously sounds very important and something that I believe you're still kind of, you know, in the process of. I don't want to say in the middle of, but like, you know, that's not stuff that's like, oh, I did that. Everything's great.

But can you pinpoint, like for me, you know, I can definitely say that in sort of my process of just being an adult, which I did not think was going to be this complicated, honestly. I really thought that like, oh, at some point I'll like get married, like as soon as humanly possible. And then everything will be fine. And like, oh, the life is very different. So in my process of learning to be an adult, I can definitely say like, okay, I have a lot of fear. I hold a lot of, I have a lot of resentment. I have trauma.

Like, you know, those are kind of the things. So I'm curious for you kind of like out of all of this, you know, and you did mention PTSD. So obviously that's a thing. but you know can you can you point to other things or like what are the things for you that you feel like oh this was what was having me going down a path that I decided I don't want to be on like like for some people it's like oh addiction it's like okay I work a program but what is it or what was it well I mean my the women on my mom's side of the family are like notoriously bad at choosing partners or something because it's just running the family yeah um there is You know, I learned a lot about, I mean, hopefully everyone learned a lot about generational trauma over the last year because of, you know, the BLM conversation and all of that. But even just in everyone's super personal life, I think anyone could probably find a thread, you know, like a through line of some theme or whatever. And with my family, and particularly on my mom's side, it's, there's a lot of abuse and just, you know, and I don't want to tell my mom's story for her or anything, but. what I went through even just with her when she was married to her second husband, it was

traumatic. Like, there are things I truly don't remember at all. And she'll tell me something that was, like, so important, that was such an impactful day in our life. And I've literally blacked it out. And, you know, and then she has some of those things. And I'll, I'll try to talk to her about it. And she'll be like, I don't, that, we don't talk about that, you know. It was really bad. And even now, like it's still a new thing to get words around because I dealt with it so in here for so long. That's why I was a writer, I'm sure, you know, that was my escape from it. But talking about it and bringing it into, you know, between us right now is, that's a whole new exercise for me. And I think it's healing.

I think it's a new way of expression that I'm maybe less comfortable with than writing on a, you know, writing down on paper. But it's, it's, it was mainly that there's a lot of religious stuff to growing up in Mississippi as a child, like Southern Baptist. I was in a play called Heaven's Gates and Hell's Flames when I was like seven. Oh, yeah. I know, I know what side of that you and I were on, Jonathan. Do you want to talk a little bit? Because also like I do happen to be a person, a reasonable person or a sciencey person of faith. But there is a lot surrounding, and again, the problem is not so much God or religion, it's humans.

But many people find also a lot of, I'm not diagnosing you, but there's, because you haven't indicated anything around this, but a lot of obsessions and compulsions can actually come up surrounding religion in particular and religious training. So I'm not saying that was your experience, but I do want to acknowledge that while religion does many positive things, there's also a... a structure and an implementation by even well-meaning people that can be very upsetting, especially, you know, I like to talk about like, well, we're so resilient. And most people are like fundamentally the same, meaning in terms of like our makeup. But the fact is you don't

know what kid you're getting. You know, I always point this out to people, especially when the subject of hitting comes up. You don't know what predisposition that kid has for extreme trauma from being screamed at or hit. Like, you don't know. And so hopefully they'll be okay. It's kind of how most people, like, and a lot of people didn't even think about it, but I think the same is with religion. Like, you don't know, you could be trying to imprint on a child something that's very, very damaging to them. My older son, we sent him to camp, we sent him to a little Jewish, like a day camp, this was years ago. He's 15. He might have been eight when this happened.

He told me now that the instructor said that think of yourself when you go to sleep, like a cell phone that needs. needs to be charged. And sometimes God will unplug your charger and you won't wake up. Now, I, it's like, I'm sorry, he told you what? And this was like, this happened like seven years ago and I never knew this. And it turned him off to that particular branch of religious observance. Yeah, no shit. He's like, Mama, it wasn't, and he told me this last week, it wasn't even that, like, they said that sometimes God forgets.

Because, like, whoops. It was that God makes a conscious decision to not plug me in or to unplug me. Like, I'm thinking Matrix. Your mother told a story recently on an episode that we released about her belief that God was standing behind her door in her bedroom every night and watching her. And she was terrifying. So tell us your religious trauma. Let's play this game. Oh, fuck.

Well, first of all, this is a game that me and my friends play all the time. We, you know, we grew up in the South. So it's like it's the Bible Belt. I was from Mississippi. It was already, if this tells you anything, like moving to Nashville was culture shock from my mom and I. We were like, oh, my God, contemporary Christian music. What is this? You know?

And I honestly, it's been, it will be a forever thing that I will be untying some of the knots. But I mean, only recently did I remember this play that I told you guys about. This was like an evangelical play that toured around, you know, I'm sure the southeastern region of America. We know it. We know it. We and I reenact that play all the time. Our relationship is that play. Oh, my God.

Well, it, wow. It was There So there was a scene where I I was You know With my mom My real mom was in this with me

And we were like La-di-da We're walking across the stage Which is in this case Supposed to be just like a street We're you know innocently crossing the street Probably jaywalking

It's probably why we died But we We got hit Hold on This is getting good And And so someone hit us, we die. And I go to heaven up a very real set of stairs that are so steep and so just, it was very tough for my little legs, but I made it to heaven.

Yeah, you did. My mom was quite literally dragged to hell by a Luciferian-looking, you know, very cheaply, you know, made Satan. Because her legs weren't strong enough, or were there other reasons? No, it was it was it was there was the drama I mean that was the drama of it yeah well I mean I was just talking to a friend about this the other day and they were like oh my god I saw that play and I was like you saw my mom you know like it was very um but you know at the time like I was a kid and everyone in that church thought we're doing the right thing you know and I don't know I mean there's no better example of preaching to the choir in history than that right there but I quickly Like when I moved here to Nashville, like I met the guys that I play in a band with at a church school, home school thing. Like it was so we were made fun of so badly in the press when we were kids because like, you know, the first time we went to England, they were like, what the fuck? Like, where are you guys? Aliens from?

Like, you guys are crazy. And, you know, and I was pretty like unabashed. Like I was okay. I wasn't super strict within myself and what I thought about God. But I will say so much trauma happened without my conscious, without me knowing. And then especially to my guy friends, you know, because I'm in a band with all dudes. So it's like I hear their stories. And it's pretty bad.

Like I feel like, I mean, first of all, like being a young girl in a youth group at the time, maybe it's different now. but it's like the boys got like the sex talk and the porn talk and all of that stuff and the girls like it's just we don't you're not even a sexual being you know you're just a bait you know and that's how I was made to feel it was it was like almost I was weaponized you know and and I think that was that was probably a small layer of me making myself smaller and trying to fit in with the guys and just be one of the guys all the time you know does religion play any supportive role in your life obviously there's, you know, aspects of spirituality which sort of cross into religion and curious how that lands for you now. I would say, you know, maybe very loosely. I am still figuring out just how deep some of the cuts are that, you know, the wounds that, I'm still figuring it out. I don't know what I believe. I'm comfortable with that right now. It doesn't mean I will always be, and I know there's something. I know there's, there's God. but maybe just not God that I was taught. I definitely don't think the God that I was taught is that's not what I subscribe to.

I think it's super important as we like learn something that, you know, had its place at that time, but then we reconnect with a different understanding of what those principles are and we reconfigure like the positive aspects because I can jokingly talk about the sort of downside that people have experienced, but, you know, there's a huge amount of connection in religion for so many people that I don't, you know, and I joke a lot on this podcast, but I don't want people to think that I'm, you know, so dismissive as to be inconsiderate. I think it's really cool that you say that because my sort of reflex is to kind of bash this way

I used to be or like kind of talk down to that version of myself or to this ideal that. that we all tried to live up to for a certain time. And it's not helpful. And I often will feel just kind of like, well, it just doesn't feel helpful. I feel sticky or something after that. And I listen to Pete Holmes a lot on his podcast. You made it weird.

And he has some conversations with Richard Roar that are so wonderful. And I've learned a lot. And I've also learned a lot about what I do believe and what I, and I mean, I think I already know what I don't, but when someone says something that resonates with you, sometimes it's easier if it's coming from somewhere else. You're like, oh, yeah, I don't know how to put words to that,

but that makes sense. That feels, that clicks with me. That feels right, you know. So, I mean, I think I'm still in that mining process. I also think that the intergenerational trauma piece fits directly into all of this, because whether it's a religious ideal or a family, ideal or some unresolved family issue perfectionism or broken relationship that like doesn't get

resolved. We're seeing more and more that it may not play out exactly the same in the next generation, but the threat of it is still there. And yeah, totally. There's a modality called family constellation therapy, which is like way, way out there. And I, you know, I, is that, is that internal family systems or is that a different? It is, well, I don't know if internal family systems, like if this is a naming convention and maybe they're the same, same sort of thing. But the way I've experienced them is that it's in a group setting and there's a facilitator and often it can be in groups of like 10 or even 20. And there's almost no talking involved. But it is like a almost like tabloes of family systems are played out where someone sits in a chair

who's receiving the constellation and there's a facilitator. And whatever issue is being had, mine is like, well, because this is going way deep out there. So if you're listening to the audio, you've got to see mine's face during this description. But the individual who's receiving a constellation may then choose a representative from the group to be a certain part of their life. It could be a pain. It could be something that they're working on. And then they'll pick other people to represent their parents or mother or family system. And literally what happens, and these people do not know each other often, most of the time.

and they'll put them in relationship to each other in a circle. And then, and I've been a representative, you can get a sensation in your body that you cannot describe as yours, which to me starts spending time and space because they're like, if I can be a representative, there you go, there's mine's face again. If I can be a representative of a family system, then the energy of that system,

which often is expressed as what we are calling intergenerational trauma, then these things have an energy and they can be embodied. and I've seen tableau play out where people can't look at each other or they're like, they feel like I can't even go near that person because it feels so horrible or I need to be right next to them. And like, how are you describing what these sensations

that these people are feeling who don't even know the person or the family system that they're representing? And yet the person often in the chair is like, oh my God, that couldn't be more accurate. So it could be a collective delusion or it could be the access of an entire... Kind of like this episode just became.

Well, I hate to be the voice of reason, but no, I think that one of the things that I was thinking also about, you know, this concept of intergenerational trauma, which I mean, I think we're speaking the same language essentially is that there are certain things that can make us sick even if we don't have them, you know? And that's usually, like alcoholism is usually described like that. You know, it's the disease that you can get even if you're not drinking, right? Because it affects the family. It affects the spouse. It affects the kids. It affects the whole system. So, for example, and I don't know and don't need to know necessarily specifics more about your family, but just what you talked about, if your mother was in a relationship that was painful and that was traumatic, even for her, even if you didn't even witness that, even if you, you know, lived in Antarctica while your mother had that relationship, she now carries that. And it's in everything she does.

It lives in her. Like, it's like, it's a thing. And I can say just from my experience, like my poor children, you know, I mean, I've done as right by them as I could. But I know that they are carrying the Holocaust because that's what I was carrying, because that's what my mother was carrying, because that's what my grandparents were carrying, right? And then there's thousands and thousands of years that we get to play this game. And depending on how deep and spiritual, mystical, because I get out there too, this is why people do past life regressions. And they talk about ancestral pain. And it's like, what is that?

This is this notion. And it's very out there, but the most practical application of it is exactly what I said. Whatever your parents go through, whatever your caregivers go through, it lives in you. And if they were, quote, untreated or they didn't get the help that they needed for the situation they were in, it's not even rocket science. It's like literally brain science. It's just like you get it by extension. One of the philosophies of the constellation...

He's still on the constellation therapy. Is that we as a loving member of the group that we are a part of, we can't help but take it on as a sign that says, hey, we are a part of this group. Even if we think we've rejected the group and you want no part of it, there's like still inherent in us is the desire to be a part of that group. And so in a loving way, we take on things that are not ours. And so a lot of the health is...

Haley's now a part of our group. Jonathan. We just took on things and she took on our things. We just made a family constellation right here. I mean, it feels good, actually, you guys. Thank you. I want to thank you so much for coming on. I honestly wasn't sure, you know, like which particular direction, because you've so, I mean, I could talk to you about every aspect of your life for an hour. But what I really, really appreciate is you coming on while just being in the middle of life, meaning you said I don't know many times and it was beautiful because you don't we don't have to know we don't have to figure it out all in one day and I really respect that like especially for what

you're going through what you're moving through if you don't mind me louis hang you again for what you're moving through to just be like here I am like that's incredibly inspirational and yes I also do believe in the things you believe in I believe in even if you don't feel like taking medication. If everyone's telling you you needed, you probably should learn to feel like you should take it. No, but I believe in therapy. I believe in integrative medicine. I believe in learning about the mind-body connection. And also, I believe in not knowing. So thank you for not knowing with us. Really a pleasure to talk to you. Are we going on tour together? Let's go. You mean you and her? No, all of us. You stay here. I got from this conversation. I thought that

we're all going on tour. Maybe I miss heard. We all just eloped. Mrs. Cohen, you missed the second wedding. That was very special because that's the person I would have hung out with, like in junior high and high school. Like she's my friend. If you had the same feet, you could have swapped boots. Yeah, like, that's my people. I found a person.

I don't think she really had any notion that she was going to enjoy herself. I think she got dragged onto this podcast. She was like, who the heck are these two? I've never heard about them before. This is some comedy person that maybe I knew about because I saw her face on a bus and this other guy. What the heck's wrong with his business? beard and she left and I think we converted her.

I really was very, very touched by her humility with her process, like just as a human. And I could barely imagine going on a talk show to talk about not even myself within a year after my divorce. You know what I mean? Like, even to talk about other things, so, so painful, you know, to be that exposed. And I really, really appreciated just how she was willing to show up. And also how much she said. I'm still figuring it out.

Like, she's still figuring it out. And yeah, she's younger than me. But she's not 15. And she's not 20. Like, she's a grown-up who's still figuring it out. I have no idea how old anyone is. It's a deficit. I can't tell.

Ask Myam anything. Yeah. Myam, hi. Thanks for the breakdown. I am leaving this message today because I'm interested in the concept of survivor trauma. but I'm talking about the kind that's passed from one generation to the next. I was born in France, but my parents fled a war and my grandmother survived a genocide. I wanted to understand more about it because I always faced the reality of my family history.

I even minored in genocide studies at university, but in recent months and also, Also in recent years, I found it more difficult to deal with all of that, particularly since recent events in all three countries that I'm from. So any light that you could shed on that particular kind of trauma, why it's passed down and how it manifests would be most welcome. Thank you so much, Viken. I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly for a really, really eloquent, question and we obviously spoke about it in this episode, but I did want to add that the actual

term intergenerational trauma, the concept was recognized in the 60s, and it was based on a group of studies by psychologists of children and grandchildren of people who had survived the Holocaust. And, you know, this kind of notion that like, well, Jewish people are crazy. You know, it's well and hard-earned. And in many cases, especially for those of us of Eastern European descent, there's a very specific amount of trauma surrounding that period in history, even if my grandparents, for example, were not in camps, in concentration camps, there still is a component of their existence, and many like them, who are known as survivors in this kind of community. and that creates a way of functioning in some ways which is not really reparable very easily. And, you know, my family was peasants. They did not have very good education, what education they had ended somewhere around middle school.

So their vocabulary for being able also to process that kind of trauma in a culture that, first of all, was not necessarily supportive of it, but they were also taken then from their culture. They fled to America, which is amazing, but it's a very different cultural vocabulary. The Armenian genocide is, I think, possibly the genocide that you're describing, which was the Ottoman Turkish Empire, killing 1.5 million Armenians. That was 1915.

And this is another arena that we've seen some intergenerational trauma research in. I do want to also mention there's been some interesting studies of Aboriginal communities in Canada. and there was also a famine in Ukraine. So there are all these communities, unfortunately, all over the world that have allowed us to kind of, you know, peek behind the curtain, as it were, to see what happens to the mental health and really the lives of people whose parents or grandparents and even great-grandparents have suffered greatly. And this is one of those things that there's not a solution for. And I hope that was clear in the podcast we just did with Haley.

This is an ongoing conversation that we have in our families and often with outside help, you know, with a therapist, with a counselor. You know, a lot of people come from crazy families and we kind of talk about it like that. But in certain families, the wounds are very, very deep. And that creates an environment that can almost feel like a genetic predisposition, you know, to many things. Also, as Haley mentioned, the Black Lives Matter movement has, I mean, I don't want to say introduced, but it has brought to the forefront, justifiably so, of many of our collective

consciousness, the notion that the intergenerational trauma experienced by our black brothers and sisters is real. The intergenerational trauma also from the indigenous communities of this country and really every country that has experienced the extermination of an indigenous population. It's a real thing. And by that, I mean, for many, for many of the generations I've been alive, there's been this notion of like, get over it. Why can't you get over it? And the fact is there are very real scientific reasons. And many of them are related to the structuring of a mental wellness kind of framework. And institutionalized policies. And institutionalized policies, which are acting on, in addition,

the trauma of communities that did not realize what was going on. That is kind of its own insult. So, anyway, thank you for your question. We hope that was helpful. Thank you to everyone who has submitted a question. If you would like to ask miam anything, and Jonathan, some things, you can do so at bialicbreakdown.com. That's BIA.

That's what? That's BIA. L-I-K breakdown.com. Don't ask Jonathan. what aneagram number he is. Because I'll be wrong, clearly. But mine will always be there to correct me. And thank you, everyone who has helped us and supported the show by leaving us a review.

You can drop us that five stars. If you're listening on audio, you can always check out the YouTube channel as well. Click the little bell notification to get updates because we're dropping episodes all the time now. You never know. We'll surprise you on a Thursday. There are no rules here. It can get crazy. From our breakdown to the one we hope you never have.

We'll see you next time. It's my and biolics breakdown. She's going to break it down for you. She's got a neuroscience PhD or two. One fiction. And now she's going to break down. It's a breakdown.