Mayim Bialik's Breakdown - I Felt Pressure to Be Sexy: Boy Meets World Star on Growing & Sexploitation in Hollywood

Episode Date: February 6, 2024

I Felt Pressure to Be Sexy: Boy Meets World Star on Growing & Sexploitation in Hollywood.   Danielle Fishel aka "Topanga Lawrence" REVEALS the real reason she nearly quit BOY MEETS WORLD!   She opens up in the MBB studio about facing body image issues and the pressures of objectification while she was underage, what it was like to have global pop star Lance Bass from NSYNC as her first serious boyfriend, and how chasing validation led her to perfectionism.   Danielle discusses why BOY MEETS WORLD holds such a nostalgic feeling for all of us (& did you know she didn’t originally get the role of "Topanga"?!?!), how fame affected her friendships in school, her divorce, and getting into therapy after her first marriage ended.   She also shares how her background in psychology led her to realize the importance of being established in who you are before you begin a healthy adult relationship.   TUNE IN to MBB today to hear the full convo!   Danielle Fishel's podcast, Pod Meets World: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/pod-meets-world/id1629908611 BialikBreakdown.com YouTube.com/mayimbialik Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

But I didn't originally get the role of Topanga. I auditioned for the role of Topanga. I did not get a call back. And that's because I was not a good actor. I had no idea what it meant to be an actor that like acting actually meant you pretend to be various types of people. I thought acting meant you go in and are Danielle all the time. My whole life, I just told that story from the perspective of me.

And then all of a sudden it hit me this woman. has gone her whole life with the opposite story. The character was kind of like exactly who she was. She was at this hippie child. She wanted it so badly. And then at the end of the day, was just told, it's not working out for you. Sorry.

And I gained weight toward the end of the show. I remember there were talks about it, called me into the office. We've gained weight. But it wasn't like, call you into the office, you've gained weight. So can we talk about what we're going to do about it. It was called you into the office. You've gained weight. Just wanted you to know we're

writing an episode about it. Lance Bass was my boyfriend as my senior year in high school. I mean, he was my first year's boy. I mean, yes, I went to his, I met his, I flew to Mississippi to, before Christmas and met his family and he came to and stayed at my parents' house. He did tell me before he was, he was going to come out. When he broke up with me, I was the only person who probably hadn't suspected it at that point, truly. My mom said to me when we broke up, He just broke up, we are schedules and all of this stuff. And I was like, I thought this had been going pretty well, to be honest. I thought prom was going to be it.

We've talked about it many times since. It was a true turning point. That's when he realized he had to break up with me because he wasn't going to be able to keep this going anymore without really hurting me. It's my and Beaholics Breakdown. She's going to break it down for you. Because you know she knows a thing or two. And now she's going to break down.

It's a breakdown. She's going to break it down. Hi, I'm I'm Biolik. And I'm Jonathan Cohen. And welcome to our breakdown, the place where we break things down so you don't have to. Today we're going to be breaking down, possibly a person that was in your life on your television screen

for many years of your childhood or young adulthood. Danielle Fischel, best known for her iconic role as Topanga on Boy Meets World. Now, that aired from 1993 to 2000. She also reprised her role as a mom of two now for Girl Meets World, which was a reboot that they did for three seasons on the Disney Channel. Since 2017, Danielle has actually become a director. She's directed nearly 40 episodes of a variety of shows. She's a mother to two young children, Adler, and Keaton.

And she loves being able to connect with her fans. And what better way to do that than to come and talk to us, about how she got started in acting. She and I have a similar story. She started late. Like, they weren't even sure it was going to be successful. And then she ended up on a show for seven years.

I mean, she talks about Justin Timberlake and Lance Bass from a small known group in sync. That's right. She dated Lance Bass for a very significant and important year of both of their lives. So she talks all about that. She talks about what it was like being in junior high in high school while being on TV.

She talks about body image issues and... And also how Justin Timberlake coached Lance to help get them together. You know, let's name drop here. That's pretty awesome. It's such a pleasure to welcome Danielle Fischel to the Breakdown. Break it down. Thank you so much for having me. It's really nice to have you here in person.

Jonathan is zooming in from outer space. Hello. I feel like I'm there. I feel like we are two humans who existed at the same time on television. and therefore probably like met or we're at an event or a party. But I went to college shortly after Boy Meets World started. Oh, okay. So I, yeah, I'm a little bit older than you and then was leaving the television universe and, you know, and left while you were still actively on television.

So Boy Meets World was, I mean, seven years of your life. Yes. And you then reprised your role for girls. Girl Meets World, which when was that rebooted? So that started 2014. Wow. I mean, I think it aired first in 2015, but we started the whole process in 2014. And Boy Meets World went off the air in 2000.

So like a full 15 years later. And then that ran for three years. That was on the Disney Channel. That was Disney Channel, yeah. So Boy Meets World was on ABC and it was part of the TGIF, you know, extravaganza. Yes. You were part of people's lives in a very kind of concrete way. How old were you in those years?

What years of your life was that? 12 to 19. Holy moly. So like every teenage year just through the whole thing. I started off as like a very young, green child who had really never done anything in the entertainment industry before. I had done a couple commercials, a couple full house appearances. then Got Boy Meets World. And by the time it was over, I was 19 years old, I was like, ready to be done.

I've been doing this for too long. It was like they saw the whole progression. And you're from a place that I don't think I've ever met anyone who's from there. You're from Mesa, Arizona. Well, I was born there. I lived there for 21 days. I was born when my dad, three weeks before my dad graduated college. So my parents met at 15, got married at 21.

That's not true. That's amazing. Yeah. Well, they are now divorced. Okay. But, you know, they were married for 30 years. So, totally successful relationship. That's a joke story. You get divorced after 30 years. At that point, you're one foot in the grave, people. Just keep it together. If you're married at 21, you're not. They were 50 years old. So where did you move after you were 21 days old? Both my parents are native Californians. My dad just went to ASU. So I was born right before my dad graduated and then they both high-tailed it back to. Orange County. But it is interesting because that is on my Wikipedia about the Mesa, Arizona. And during the political, when we are, when there's a lot of politics stuff going on, I get targeted. Danielle, get the people of Arizona to vote. And I'm like, they don't. They, they, they, I am not connected to them. They, I am not their people. So for all intents and purposes, you were raised in Southern California. Yes. I am a, I consider myself to be a native Californian.

Got it. And tell us about sort of like, what your childhood was like in terms of like, were you a theatrical kid from the get-go? Were you, you know? I was a ham. Okay. I was definitely like an extroverted kid. I was, I talked very, very young. My mom tells us very funny story when I was three years old and I had just started preschool.

And my dad was out of town and he called to see how I was, how I was liking preschool. And I said, well, my best friend Meredith is moving to Massachusetts. And my mom was like to hear that whole sentence come out of a three-year-old. And I was perfectly clear with the way I said Massachusetts. Like, I was that kid. But I auditioned for some plays in school and I did them in elementary school. But it wasn't really until I started hearing from other people. Like, my mom was getting stopped in places and going like, have you ever thought about getting her into TV?

That it was kind of like, hey, maybe that's what I want to do. And then there was a girl I went to school with who was a couple years older than me who came to school. And she was so cool. And she came to school one day and she said, guess what? I got an agent. I'm going to be a model. And I was like, that's what I want to do. So I went home and I was like, Mom, I know it.

I know what I want for my life. I want to be a model. And my mom, all five feet of her, looked at all four feet, five inches of me and said, Danielle, you have to be tall to be a model. And I don't think height is in your future. And that was fine with me. I took that pretty well. I was like, oh, that's a bummer.

So I went back to school the next day. I said, guess what? I can't be a model. I'm not going to be tall. She goes, yeah, you do have to be tall to be a model. Well, my agents are also going to put me on TV. I don't think you have to be tall to be on TV. And that's all I needed to know.

That was it. For the next year, I was like, I want to be on TV. I want to be on TV. And my parents were so opposed to it. But I eventually, I wore them down. I have a question. I don't know how to ask it. I've never had someone say this before that I would have to respond to.

What is it like to be like, I think I could be a model because I think about those girls in school who, I mean, you were, are a very attractive human. Thank you. But I always wondered about those girls who were like, I'm going to be a model. And it's like, how do you know like that the level of pretty that you have to be, right?

Because like the standards are very, very specific. I don't think I even knew that. That's what I'm wondering. Were you like, I'm stunning and I, but you just, you wanted to be out there. I just knew that that's what she was going to do. Right. And if she could do it, why couldn't I do it?

Because she was ugly. No, I just not, if any, like, I have always, and this is perhaps just, I don't know where my false confidence came from, but I really have always pretty much looked at whenever somebody says they're going to do something, I don't think of all the reasons why they're better suited to it than I am. I usually think, well, look at them going out there and saying they're going to do that. If they are saying they can go out there and do that, I could also go out there and do And so I think I just decided that that's what I could do.

One of the differences between people like you and people like me is that when I see people do things, I say, here's the 10 reasons. I can't do that. So where did that, where did it come from? Like, were your parents particularly confident inducing? I don't know. Jonathan, does this sound foreign to you? Is it just me?

No, it means it's a different perspective than I see you having. Yeah. I think my parents were very good at telling me that I was capable and that I was smart and that I was, that truly anything I wanted to do, I could do, except for model because I was not tall. And also, you know, with all due respect, my parents did tell me those things. I just didn't believe them. Right. That's a different story.

Right. We're all different. So we also have a similar trajectory in that we both started actually. at what's considered a later age for child actors. Correct, yeah. And people look at us and they're like, you are child actors. But when you meet people like, like Genevon-Oye or people like Kaylee Quoco, you know, people like Fred Sat, like people who started when they were, you know, toddlers and in commercials,

it's a very, very different entry point because we're considered like, oh, I don't know if you're going to make it because you haven't been hardened by the industry by 12. I remember going in on those meetings to meet with different agents when it was time to sign with an agent and hearing, well, the problem is, you're a little old for this and thinking, I was, you know, I was 10 being like, oh, gosh, I've aged out. Who knew? And I remember at 10 being like, well, you're a little old. And then when I got Boy Meets World, it was like, well, thank God, there's this for you because otherwise you're not the it age. There's always like the it age. You know, when Boy Meets World ended, it was like, well, unfortunately, what's really cool now

is young 30s and you're too young for young 30s. And then when I was young 30s, it was like, well, now you're just too old because what's cool now is young 20s. And so I just always felt like I was not the right age. Huh. And also, I think for people listening, they might be like, what does that mean to be 10 and be told like this is going to be a challenge? And part of it is, is that to learn the industry, which is an adult industry, to learn it starting at 10, starting at 12. Like, it's the learning curve. It's very steep. Whereas if you're three, you've already been conditioned to not have many desires or needs, you know, to do what you're told. You know, to do what you're told to be obedient, which is what's necessary. And you've also had years of learning how to

memorize, how to block. Like, I didn't know upstage from downstage when I got beaches, you know, like, I was still sort of like learning. And I'm sure you had a similar experience of like, unless you've been ingrained in theater. So that's sort of what, what that, you know, kind of entry point is like. So you didn't have a lot of time working before you basically got the job that was your main job. Correct. Yeah, no, not at all. I had done a handful of commercials. I had done two episodes of Full House, which were the only non-commercial speaking parts I had. And then Boy Meets World. Wow.

But I didn't originally get the role of Topanga. I didn't have that role. Tell us about it. Okay. So I auditioned for the role of Topanga. I did not get a call back. And that's because I was not a good actor. I had no idea what it meant to be an actor that, like, acting actually meant you pretend to be various types of people.

I thought acting meant you go in and are Danielle. All the time. You thought I'm just trying to find the person who wants to cast Danielle. Yeah. Just when the character is like Danielle, no one's going to be better for it than Danielle. But I just went in and said everything as if how would I say it? How would I have said these words? They didn't like that?

No, not often. Especially not when the character is a very slow speaking, calm, hippie child. That was like, I was a bubbly. Orange County Girl. Orange County Girl. That was not, but, you know, I saw the words on the paper, the description was like, cool, they probably mean bubbly 11-year-old from Orange County. I'm just going to do that. So I didn't get a callback. And then the next day, I got an audition

for a different character on Boy Meets World. And she had like two lines. And that girl was more of like a bubbly girl from Orange County. And so I got that role. And then they cast a different girl for Topanga. And she did one day of the show. And they ended up letting her go at the end of the day. And then they had to look at, they were like, well, we could do a full recasting, or we could take these two girls who have a couple of lines over here and we could ask them to audition again. So then you had to re-audition against someone else? That's the girl I had been working with now all day. Who would we, had be like, oh, we're the two little girls with a couple of lines. And now we're up against each other for this role that had a much bigger part.

And it was very intense. And then, did you slow down? I didn't. No, I don't think I don't think I said. No, that's not true. I did. I had watched the director work with the girl they had cast. And that was truly the first moment in my life where I went, oh, I can adjust what I do and how I say it. And I watched him work with her. And I had that feeling you get inside where you're like, can I try it again? I now, I get it now. And so I did.

I got to try it again that time. And then I got it. That's an unbelievable story. I mean, first of all, you often don't get a second chance. Right. Like, to have any part. As I've talked about here before, my very first audition was to play DJ on Full House. My very first audition.

And like you, I just, like, blew through it like it was a race. Yeah. Because no one had, I'd never had an acting class. Like, I didn't know. Like, I was in, like, school plays and stuff. But I had no idea. They didn't call me back. Yeah.

They were like, we found this freaking camera. we don't need this strange child whose head is far too big for her by. Anyway. But that's also what an interesting way to get that part because how can you not have like a bit of, I don't want to say a complex, but like that excitement of like you really had to fight for it. Yeah, I had to fight for it. Yeah. And I got it.

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additional $20 off with the code break. Head to superpower.com. Use the code break at checkout for $20 off your membership. And after you sign up, they'll ask how you heard about them. Make sure to mention my ambiolics breakdown to help support the show. And I've since spoken to the girl who had the part originally because my whole life, I just told that story from the perspective of me and this like, and then all of a sudden when we started doing our podcast, it hit me.

this woman has gone her whole life with the opposite stories. This is terrible. This role that she worked, that she auditioned for, and she auditioned for it many, many, many, many times. They brought her back, brought her back, brought her back. And the character was kind of like exactly who she was. She was at this hippie child and she wanted it so badly. And then at the end of the day was just told,

it's not working out for you, sorry. And just, that's it. And then she had to know, like, because this. But Topanga character wasn't supposed to be on a regular. She was possibly going to be a recurring character. And then Topanga, of course, ended up becoming a very large staple of Boy Meets World that went on for seven years. And then a girl meets World comes back. And here she's probably, this is like her, just chasing her through her whole life.

You're making me feel horrible for her. Do, but think about it. And she has had an incredible career. She's a, she's a fantastic actress. Her name's Bonnie Morgan. Her name is Jennifer Lawrence. Yeah. And she's done okay for herself.

Okay. No, her name's Bonnie Morgan. She's a wonderful fan. She's had a totally different, but fantastic career all on her own. And you think about it's like, you don't, you were, you could have been DJ. But like, you know, so. The whole family would have had to be Jewish. It would have been a whole other show. But, you know, it's just, it's funny because it really, for me, was about, it kind of shined a light in general about the stories we tell ourselves about our lives and how there's always another perspective of the same story that. it's the flip side of the coin. And that even for our own stories, there's flip sides to the coin that maybe we could tell ourselves. I do want to mention, I want to insert right here. So the podcast that you're talking about is called Pod Meets World. It's available wherever you get podcasts. You watch episodes of Boy Meets World and you'll have on people who were on or like people

who talk about it. And it's really, really cool. And so you've been able to have people like Bonnie and other people who have been on. That's really, really cool. It's so fun. It's been great because, you know, one of the things we love about the podcast is that we've been able to bring on people who work, who were a part of the crew that we're, for our listeners who have no idea what set deck is and what the props department do and what costume designers, what goes into their job. And so for us, we get to, these are people that are near and dear to our heart that we worked with for seven years. We've got funny stories with them. We've got inside jokes. to bring them on and to say, tell us everything about your job.

Even though we've all been working in the industry for 30 plus years, we still learn, you know, we still learn new things about what they did and what goes into their job and what their day-to-day was like during the week. And it's really interesting. I want to ask, you know, those years, you know, from 12 to 19, like, you know, you change so much and people get to like watch you grow up. And you've talked a bit about something Danica McKellar spoke to us about, you know, from her experience on the wonderful. years, especially when, you know, you're this female character who is like the romantic, you know, you're like the romantic lead. And, you know, you, I think you and Ben Savage both

experienced like a first kiss. Like, you know, that was where your life played out, you know, on the set, which is how it was for many of us in those years. But I wonder if you can talk a little bit about, you know, what it felt like, especially, you know, looking back now, now that you're a mom, now that you're a grown-ass woman, now that we've had, you know, a reckoning in terms of what me-to means. What was it like to be, you know, sort of raised in a culture at a time when people were allowed to speak inappropriately and freely about how they feel about attractive young women? Can you talk a little bit about that?

I think that would be helpful for people to hear. Yeah. I mean, I'll say I had a, I think I had it very lucky. That doesn't mean I never experienced any of it because I did, and I will talk about it. But I had it very lucky in the sense that our set environment, it was very important for Michael Jacobs, our creator. One of the things that he said from the very beginning was going to be important to him is that he wanted a family environment on set. When you would visit other sets, you felt very much like this is a very adult situation and workplace. And unfortunately, there are children around and they just have to deal with it.

Our set didn't really feel like that. Our set felt like this is a family atmosphere and everyone will adapt to that. And so, you know, Wilfredel recently told the story on our podcast that he overheard a crew member talking to Ben Savage about something he should not have been talking to him about, about how to engage in certain activities outside of nightclubs in Hollywood. And Ben was all of about 13 or 14 years old at the time. Like elicit? Yes, like oral pleasure. Oh, dear. Like how to, how to like break through the line and get into a club first.

No, I mean a sexual circumstance that he was talking about with a 13 or 14. Yes, a child. Right. And Will overheard it and walked directly to the stage manager and said, Steve, this guy was just talking about this with Ben. And I just wanted you to know. And Steve said, tell me everything. I want to know. And the next day, that guy was gone and never seen again. And like, we had that sort of environment where... Very unusual for that time. Very unusual. We were very much protected.

And with that said, when I got to be about 15, 16, and, you know, at 15 or 16 back then, that was suddenly the time where, you know, if you were doing photo shoots, those photo shoots became sexier for some reason at all of, you know, 16 years old. And that didn't stop people from making comments to me about, you know, looking forward to my 18th birthday or, you know, those things. Like that, gross stuff like that. That did happen. But I know of some of the other sets where things were much, much worse. And I'm just, I'm so glad now, having then been on the set of Girl Meets World,

the difference between the Boy Meets World set and the Girl Meets World set and the way people, you know, even coming from a pretty safe space of Boy Meets World, still the difference. I was like very happy to see that that kind of stuff just wasn't being talked about. And you also directed several episodes of that. So I wonder is that sort of also part of being able to take ownership over kind of the tone and the setting of where you are? Yes. I really wanted to. I didn't necessarily get my way a lot.

As a director, I got to have my way as a director. But as a producer on the show, you know, our executive producer, Michael J. Jacobs had a real clear vision for what he wanted and he was going to carry it out no matter what anyone else said. And so you could go in there and you could fight and you could, you know, tug of war. But at the end of the day, he was going to win. But yes, that was one of the reasons I wanted to start directing is I saw our young actors who I just felt so like, that was me. That was me just, you know, 20 years ago, 30 years ago. And I wanted to, I saw them learning all the time. But directors who were very well established would come in and sometimes just put their

hand on one of their arms and move them where they wanted them. And I would then see them look around like, why did that just happen? What are we doing here? And then I would wait for the, you know, they'd move on and we'd go to the next scene and I would then find myself explaining like, here's why they did that. This is what the camera you need to be opened up for. And I was like, man, I think maybe I want to try this. And so yes, that's where I got my start. And now that's what I do full time. I'm a, I've done over 40 episodes of... That's incredible. Another thing that I wonder if you can speak to is, you know, that notion of, I mean,

besides the sort of pressure of, you know, being a teenage girl who, especially at that time, like, it was just sort of like, it was considered part of your job that you look a certain way and dress a certain way. And I wonder, you know, it's something that not a lot of people have been talking about because there has been so much emphasis on the environment and things like that. But I wonder if you can speak kind of personally about the impact on you. Body image is something that, you know, I remember was talked about a lot, you know, more in personal circles, not in general circles.

Like, you didn't talk about it. And even as an adult, you know, even when I was on Big Bang Theory and when I would, you know, interact with a larger population of actors, you know, at a different time when it was just like assumed that there are all these things, you know, like, you know, like, you. You'd meet women on the red carpet. And you'd just be talking about like, oh, how was your week? And it's like, well, I haven't eaten since, you know, two days ago. And it's like, but it's like a normal, it was considered a normal thing.

And I think that probably started a long time ago. But when I was on Blossom, Jenna and I, we were just, we were kind of insulated from that. But you have talked a little bit about how it impacted you personally. And I wonder if you'll talk about that a little. Well, it's interesting because I'm in therapy now as an adult. And I'm the podcast, our podcast has made. me look through a totally different lens at my, at my childhood. And it's brought up a lot. What it has made me realize is that when you're a kid and you have a job, that part of you

that is obedient and gets things done and gets things done quickly, efficient, all that is super praised because all of those things are things that make you a really big asset on a show. You can nail your lines, you can be funny, you can be attractive, you can hold your props well, you can change your clothes quickly, you're not holding up production, you show up on time. It saves money. I mean, that's time is money. At the end of the day, you are going, you are an asset for any production. And so those parts of me were very highly praised.

As I got older and my teenage metabolism, I guess, started to dwind. And I gained weight toward the end of the show. I remember there were talks about it, called me into the office. You've gained weight. But it wasn't like call you into the office. You've gained weight. So can we talk about what we're going to do about it? It was called you into the office.

You've gained weight. Just wanted you to know we're writing an episode about it. Oh. And so it's going to be talked about. You're going to see it. It's going to be coming up. I just wanted to give you a heads up so that you're not, so it doesn't catch you off guard. So let's also just take a moment to realize that like when you talk about it's

It's not even necessarily metabolism. It's that before the hormones of puberty kick in, we actually don't know what body type, for the most part. Like we often don't know what body type we're going to have. So like, obviously you'll hear women who are like, I was a chubby girl, I'm a chubby adult. Great. Or like I was real thin as a kid and I'm real thin as an adult. But for a lot of us, we have, you know, kind of like a kid body type and boy and girl bodies don't look that different, you know, up until like around age nine or 10 or so. Well, with the hormones that we eat, It's changing a little bit. But what happened, and I'm just imagining this because I'm not tracking, you know, your body in my mind right now.

What happened was you became a young woman. Right. And so you had a different body than you had at 12. Yeah. And I also, as I got older and I was, you know, my mom wasn't necessarily when you're a kid, your mom's kind of like, my mom at least. She was super involved and she cooked dinner every single night. We had family dinner every night. And I was eating the food that my mom made and my parents.

parents were healthy, and so we ate healthy food. But then as you get to be 16, 17, 18, and you start doing more things with your friends. And after school, you're not necessarily going home to eat them dinner your mom cooked. Yeah, I started eating different foods. And I, I just had a different body style. Now, at the time, it was very frustrating because I was still a size four. I was truly a size four. Now, I am five foot one. So not that five four. You're petite, though. I'm a small person. Yeah.

So, you know, I'm just saying, like, it's not like I'm a size four and I'm five nine. Because there's a difference in, like, someone who's five nine and wears a size four than someone who's five one and wears a size four. But still, I. It wasn't even covered their hoo-hoo. I was not, I was not in a weight category that was like, we are concerned about your health. It was just the people who were in charge of writing the episodes felt as though it needed to be talking. about and so they wanted to give me a warning. And...

Was it body positive? No! No, it was that everyone thought Topanga must be pregnant. No. There was a thing where I was one of the scenes that I remember, and this is the reason why I remember that I was a size four is because the scene had me struggling to zip up a pair of jeans. Oh, my God.

And Corey comes into the room and says, Topanga, what's going on? And I said something like, God, I just, I don't know what happened. I can't zip these jeans up. And he said, well, that's because they're mine. And I remember thinking, my jeans are a size four. And the joke is that Corey's jeans are too small for me. And I, that, what I didn't realize is that so much of the last seasons of Boy Meets World where I was really like, I wanted to be done.

I wanted to be done with the show. I'm realizing now, I think I felt like I had failed because my body had changed and now all the positive reinforcement I had gotten from being that efficient, quick, attractive, you know, kid who gets all this done. You've really let us down now with what's happened with your body. And my way of dealing with something as a person who feels like they're not doing well at it is just I shut down. I don't want to do this anymore.

I'm making everyone unhappy. I have to go. And there's somebody else who could do this better than me. And I don't know how much more I would have enjoyed the end of the show had I not felt that way about my body. But I have a feeling most of my disappointment in the end of the show was just about the fact that I felt bad about myself. It's really, I appreciate you sharing that. And, you know, you said something that we've only started kind of allowing to be part of the kind of vernacular, like what we talk about.

A lot of girls, and I'm not saying this to not make your situation special because it was very, very unique. But I really love what you articulated because when you said, you know, that you felt it's almost like your body lets you down. Yeah. And, you know, you hear this a lot when people talk about gender identity. and a lot of girls, and I'm not saying I can rule on that that feeling means you have a gender identity. You know, I'm not talking about that.

But the notion that for many girls, we are now allowed to say the body that I had, which was reliable, predictable, made everybody happy. Yeah. Fit into clothes very easily. I could just buy off the sample rack, right? Like all those things. Everything they put on me looked cute. That's right. It didn't matter.

Yeah. There's a point in our development, in particular as women. when there's this sense of like my body has betrayed me because it has dimensions that don't fit in the same way because the fact is when you don't have curves, meaning when you don't have your hips yet and you don't have your breasts yet, your body's kind of like everybody else's. Right. Right. But who knows if you're going to be a busty person, a person with more hips, a person with more booty,

you know? So the notion that our bodies are seen as problematic and I think it's highlighted in the industry, but I think many women experience this. Yeah. Yeah, I think so too. And it's funny because I felt so bad about my body during that time, so bad about my body. And yet now, when I read things that people will say, looking back about the show, for some people, that period of time was the time where they were like, man, you looked so great. You look how great you were. And in that episode, there was a message I really loved about it where in that, I think it's that same episode where I was squeezing into the jeans, Topanga is sitting there and she's eating. slice of pizza and other people are talking about something pertaining to calories or something about their body. And Topanga says, look at you guys, so hung up on your appearance, there's an entire pizza here. And I, so like, there was a part, there was an aspect of it that I go, yeah, if only that had been true. If only I had actually felt the message I was supposed to be delivering,

man, I would have, I would have loved that. And now I feel now, I mean, but just now, truly in my 40, in my 40s for the first time ever, I think I have a healthy relationship with food and my body. How did that? How did you cultivate that? Was that therapy? Like, well, I think a large part of it was having kids. I was very nervous about having, having, I'm very aware that all of the things that we focus on with ourselves are going to be the things that our kids see us focusing on. And so I was hypersensitive about what if I have a daughter? I really want to. her to not, I don't want, I want to be cautious to not talk about my body or to not say things about my body that are going to make her think certain things about her body because I do know

that that happened with my mom. My mom was always talking negatively about her body. And yet I looked at her and was like, she's the most perfect woman I've ever seen in my life. And if she feels that way about her, is there something wrong with her? And if there's something wrong with her, then my gosh, there must be something wrong with me. And then even though I didn't have a daughter, I was like, it doesn't matter that I didn't have a daughter. That's still the exact same thing. Their relationship to their bodies and the way they talk about that. And I, there was also a sense of, I have so many other things to focus on now that if I really just listen to my body and know when I want to eat, when I don't want to eat, what am I craving

and why? I definitely have a sweet tooth and I can tell like, oh man, I'm wanting to eat to sugar and that's because I'm definitely addicted to sugar. I need to pull that back. or other times when it's like, no, I want a donut. It's just truly because a donut sounds good now and I haven't had a donut in a while. I always want a donut. Who doesn't want a donut all the time? I love donuts. But I can usually tell the, I can just, I don't know.

I shut down looking at external factors for things and just really started listening to myself and found out like, oh yeah, intuitively, I can be pretty healthy and have a healthy relationship with food if I don't, if I'm not constantly thinking about it. Are you surprised that that comfortability with your body has come in your 40s? Yes, especially after kids where my body's totally changed now. Like, and that doesn't mean I think, oh, I'm so self-confident. I look up mommy makeovers all the time. Like I'm, I still Google, huh, what would I look like if I went for that mommy

makeover? But I'm able to look at it and go, yeah, that's pretty sweet. Is that a plastic surgery comment? Oh, yeah. people who don't know. Don't know what a mommy makeover is. Well, you know, people may not know. People may not.

Okay. So a mommy makeover is a, is a grouping of plastic surgery things you can do at the same time that target areas that may have most been affected by having children. So like lower tummy, it might involve a mini tummy tuck or a full tummy tuck, maybe a breast augmentation, like a lift. or you do it at the same time. You can kind of do it at the same time, which is actually one of the reasons why it concerns me, because also if you pick a surgeon that's like really good at doing a breast augmentation,

what means you think that person's also the person that's best for the tummy tuck? Like they have specialties, you know? I don't know. Oh, okay. Well, they have specialties. Listen, I've spent a lot of time looking at this. As I tell you, I'm very comfortable with my body. I'm very confident.

I've spent a lot of time looking at it. No, but I think that for me, at least, is part of the healthy aspect of it, which is like knowing it's available and if I choose to do it not being hard on myself, but also recognizing that like there is nothing in me that says like you absolutely have to. Your worth is tied up into it. Like it really is more about just talking about it openly instead of obsessing about it. Right. Well, and yeah.

I mean also it's kind of like the similar set of things I was thinking about when we hit puberty, you know, and when we have, you know, like, oh, this is my body, like, oh, okay, I'm not going to run track anymore. Right. Speaking for myself. But the kind of next level of that is if you get pregnant, you know, then it's like another level of like, well, now my body's going to betray me in ways that like even science cannot calculate, you know?

Exactly. Like you can hope and you can try and. And I don't want to hear from people who are like, I stayed the same way and my baby grew and it looked like I swallowed a raisin and I always had rock hard abs, even with the baby in it. Like, that's not the experience of, I'd say, most people. And for some people, that's a super high priority to, like, get that body back. But also, it's like, it should be normalized that your lower belly is not going to be flat as if you are a pre-bubescent child when you're a woman, whether you get pregnant or not. Right.

Like, there's things in there. Yes. There's goodies in there. Yes. That part's hard for me. I never really had a flat stomach. But now I definitely don't have a flat stomach. Like, and so I'm like, oh, had I known it was so flat.

before I would have appreciated it more. Now it's definitely a mom of two belly. Right. You know, but like, honestly, I'm not, I don't, why do I care so much? Right. I do think there are times, like I'll put on a pair of jeans and I'll think, these jeans would look better without that little bit of belly there. But also, would it look so much better that that's, that I want to go through surgery?

Is that what I want to say to myself? And am I also chasing after something that's still not? going to bring me the joy I'm seeking? You know, it's funny you said it that way. I happened to watch Aladdin last night. Oh. And, you know, like you do. And, you know, the bad guy, the bad guy, you know, really, Jafar, really wants the, the genie lamp.

And, you know, and what Aladdin says to him is whatever you think is in there, you're not going to get it. You know, most, you know, the notion is like most men wish for like power and they wish for money and, you know, but what what you think you're going to get is not in there. And I kind of feel like, I mean, I don't know if I could say that plastic surgery is the same, but I think that that racing for perfection, which impacts women and men, but I think especially impacts women, especially impacts women who have been in the public eye for the formative years of their life. Yes. And I see it in general with consumers. humorism. It's, it's, you buy something thinking it's going to bring you this feeling and it does in a very short, for a very temporary amount of time. And then there's the next thing that you need. And I, you know, I also am like, I'll see people who have very obviously had plastic surgery and I'll think, ooh, well, if I had it, I would want to not have it look like I had plastic surgery. I want, so what I'm really, so what I'm going for is I just want to naturally be perfect. And,

Again, then I remind myself, that's what little Danielle, the little Danielle that's still inside me that still craves validation from being a certain thing, what I really need to work on is letting go, finding validation in other ways than this ideal I keep chasing. I want to touch on something that is combining a couple different kind of themes that you've woven in, You know, the notion, first of all, of looking at these things in therapy, which Jonathan and I are huge advocates of self-exploration, which can come a lot of ways. And, you know, talk therapy or, you know, psychotherapy or even cognitive behavioral therapy. You know, these are ways to kind of like look inside. But what, and Jonathan, you're welcome to chime in here if you want, you know, what most often comes

up for all humans. I'm going to go ahead and say all humans, not celebrity humans, not, you know, child star, humans, what almost always comes up, and this is why a lot of people don't want to go to therapy, what almost always will come up is the home you were raised in. Yeah. You know, and what messages you heard, both positive, negative, and also things like, our parents did our best. Like, totally. I mean, everybody's parents, like literally, they do the best they can. It's not always enough, but they do the best they can. But I'm interested in the fact that you, like I, like so many young actors, had our primary attachment figure also as part of our work life. Yes.

Which means that we always, you know, a child wants to seek approval of the parent. It's how we sort of bond. And, you know, especially you had plenty of years when your mom was not in your life as a professional, you know, a component of your life. So we have all these years. But then when we insert that, I think even the healthiest, you know, parent-child relationship gets this other dimension when they are both the protector, you know, to make sure that we are not, you know, our hours are not abused and that we're protected, but also they are the conduit for our success, which ultimately is theirs as well. And I wonder if you have any sort of reflections, you know, with respect to

your mother, and with all due respect to your mother, of how having the person that is your primary attachment figure who you want validation from, you want approval from being then the person who facilitates other people seeking your approval. Yeah. Well, my mom... Or you seeking approval from those people. My mom knew nothing about the entertainment industry. And so I think you'll hear from a lot of kids who have parents who, you know, child actors

whose parents weren't entertainers themselves. They're kind of sometimes in a helpless situation where they don't know necessarily all the rules or all the laws. And they also don't want to overstep their bounds. my mom definitely erred on the side of, I'm here. I have my eye on things, but I am not going to interject. I'm not going to step in. If something is happening that should not be happening, the studio teacher will know that,

and the studio teacher will intervene. My mom and my dad were both, thankfully, my parents did not take any of my income. They didn't, you know, they didn't take even 10% when my mom was technically my manager. My dad had a full-time job. My mom was a stay-at-home mom. They didn't, I was not working for the family. My dad was working to support the family. Both of my parents said to me over and over again.

If you don't want to do this anymore, totally fine with me. Let's get the hell out of here. I don't want to do this. You think I want to do this? You think I want to drive you from Calabasas to Burbank every single day, five days a week, for 22 weeks on end? Absolutely not. Right.

But my mom and where the validation came from from my parents was all the other stuff. You're going to do your job. You're going to be good at your job. but you're also not going to get a big head. You're also still going to do well in school. You're also going to be a contributing member of this family. And you're also not going to get into partying. You're not going to get into drugs,

not going to fall into a bad situation. So I thankfully didn't necessarily attribute validation. The validation I was seeking back then work-wise. I never even thought about my parents in that situation. I only think of our executive producer and the directors and the writers. The grownups. The grownups. Right.

Who, of course, now that I am a grown up and obviously know absolutely nothing, it's so funny to me that when you are a kid on a show, you think they all know everything. They know everything. They have the right answer. And of course, I look back now and I go, oh, they were all just a bunch of bubbling adults like we are now. And they were doing the best they could. But when you're a kid, you're looking at them with stars in your eyes like,

this is their validation and what they say about how you are doing is everything. Yeah. And that's what I was seeking that. And we had, you know, I don't know what your situations were after rehearsals, but when we would, after we would do our run-throughs, we had hour and a half or two hour long note sessions where we all sat around and got line by line notes. And so you would find out every single day, you found out whether you were on the good list or the bad list, what you did right, what you did.

what you did wrong and the next day you were coming to work with this idea. Now I'm going to get the validation this time. And if you got berated the day before and then you got praised the next day, no better feeling in the world. So this leads me to wonder what you were like outside of the work environment, meaning socially, you know, when you ended up getting into romantic relationships, because it's such a, it's such a different world. And especially when you're dealing with adults and you're having to operate on an adult level, even though you're still a young person and a teenager. And, you know, I wonder, did you have, like, were friendships outside of work challenging for you because the rules were so different? And then also, what was it like to try and date?

I remember that, like, boys seemed really young. I mean, boys, I think often seem young when you're, like, a precocious girl. But I think especially if you're a girl who's in the industry and, like, you go, like, you interact with, like, boys at your junior high and you're just, like, They don't know how to work a 10-hour day. Like, I don't want to talk to them about Beastie boys. Yes. I found that I was either in relationships as a teenager with other boys that were in the entertainment industry or if they went to my regular school, they were significantly older than me. And so for that very same reason, I felt like, but even, you know, even older boys in high school still felt like they could be pretty immature. But, yeah, I went to, so I went to junior high and high school on our hiatus weeks.

I went back to those schools. I didn't stay on set. So I went to every single school football game. I went to all my school dances. You were really famous, though. Like, did you get a lot of attention? Well, when I first started at A.E. Right. So I was 12 when I started there, sixth grade, was the same year I started Boy Meets World.

Wow. And it was, so it was a brand new school. I had moved from Orange County to Calabasas. I was a brand new kid. And oh, gosh, I'll never forget on the first day. So in Orange County, we used to get dressed up for the first day of school. Of course you did. We wore like, we just got dressed up.

It was a big exciting thing the first day of school. And so in 1993, just peak grunge, I thought that would still be normal and probably what people would wear to the first day of sixth grade. And my mom was like, Danielle, I don't think people are going to wear panty hose. I don't think anybody at school is going to be wearing panty hose. and a jumper. You were like an Orange County Housewife. Yes, I wore panty hose and a one-piece pant jumper with ballet flats. And I thought, for sure, this was going to make me fit in. And I would felt very good about myself until I got there. And when I tell you that by lunch, I was like,

I've had everything said to me except had tomatoes thrown at me, but like almost everything else. One kid walked by me and said, where are you going? A funeral? And I was like, okay, so my mom picked me up that day and I looked at her and I said, we have to go shopping. She was like, yes, we do. Let's go. Come on. And she took me shopping.

She was like, thank God. She really tried to save me. Most kids up in this county just wear pajamas. That's exactly what I was faced with. Holy jeans, converse flails, baby doll teas. And I was like, what is? I had feathered bangs. They were, they were perfectly quaffed.

I had no, I was like, okay, I need friends. And so thankfully, the school, in Calabasas, a lot of people are actors, whether they're child actors or the parents are. So the school, very kindly, assigned me a friend on the first day. They were like, this. This person's going to teach Danielle how to be a real human. Exactly. She walked me around.

Her name was Vanessa Evigan. She was an actress. And her dad was on my two dads. Oh. And so Vanessa Evigan was like, let me show you the ropes. Here's the good drinking fountain. Here's the better bathroom. Here are the boys you want to avoid.

These are the cute boys. And we just instantly bonded. And she became my real-life friend. And we are still very close to this day. So they assigned me a friend. And I made really good friends there. And I was not popular in junior high. Who feels popular in junior high?

Are there people who are like, man, I really thrived in junior high? I just was like, this is all terrible. And everyone seemed like they were miserable. We were all just looking at each other. Like, this is awful, right? Yeah, okay. All right. Well, at least we're in it together.

But by the time then we got to high school, it was like, yeah, Danielle, she's on that show. She's on Boy Meets World. Boy Meets World didn't feel like a big show at the time. We were always on the bubble. We were always about ready to be canceled. What a long time. A lot of people watched that show. I know.

Well, it really did well in reruns. I swear, it became more successful after it was off the air. While it was on. So I don't think people really cared. And I participated enough in school that I had a real identity there. Like people knew who I was. I had real friendships. Those are still my best friends today.

The girls I met in sixth grade, those are still all my friends. And I'm really the only, like, entertainment industry friends I have are Vanessa Evigan, who I met at school. Jenna and I are still friends. But, you know, mostly keep in touch through the internet. And, yeah, mostly the kids from my show. I did bring Ben Savage to a school dance. And I did bring Lance Bass to my prom.

So even though I participated in normal school stuff, sometimes brought outsiders. Hold on. The first statement was already intriguing. So you brought, I mean, like, literally you two walked off of the television. We sure did. And he came to a dance. We went to the vice versa dance. We went to, he was the it's just vice where the girls ask the guys. Oh, we used to call that Sadie Hawkins. Okay. Exactly. Sadie Hawkins, vice versa. Dark age is when I went to school. So yeah, I brought Ben to that. And then I'm sorry,

Lance Bass. Lance Bass was my boyfriend as my senior year in high school. How did you meet Lance Bass? TGIF was how did a live night, like a live, where all the shows, they had live interstitials between the episodes. And I was hosting it. And they had a boy band perform. And they asked me, because I was one of the only girls on the show.

And they were like, do you want to in sync or backstreet boys? Who should we try for? And I was like, try for in sync. Because I was an in sync head. Right. And they said, okay, we'll try for in sync. And sure enough they got them. Wait, hold on a second.

Yes. So this is like, this is a band. that you know at the time. Oh yeah. And you're like super excited. Oh yeah. And you end up like getting to, I mean, at that point, you're just like people flirt. Oh yeah. So it started like that. And we had all this like downtime together because while the shows were airing the 30, you know, the 22 minutes, 30 minutes with commercials. Like we weren't live during that time. It was like only in between. So we had all this downtime to just be talking. And Justin and Lance and I were all around the same age. And so we spent the majority of the night talking. And I was, like, so wondering if Lance was going to ask for my phone number

and I was so excited. I was like, this is the greatest thing ever. And then I said goodbye to them. And I had to go this way. The night was over. I had to go left toward my car. And Lance and Justin went that way. And I, like, kind of looked over my shoulder and they were gone. And then I saw them hop on the bus. And the bus drove out of, like, starting to leave the parking lot. And I was like, well, that was. That was. That that? You know, 1999, eight,

no cell phones, not like, right, what are we, you know, no, Instagram, DMs.

How do you, that's it. That's, that was my one opportunity. That's it. It's just gone. Okay, so then what?

So I start to walk to my car and then all of a sudden I hear, Danielle. No. And I stop, and I turn around. Stop it. And the bus,

the brake lights are on. The bus stopped. And Justin Timberlake. Stop. Was there. And he was like, Danielle, can I get you?

your phone number for Lance Bass. And that's like, he's too nervous. And then Lance jumped down. Oh, my God. He was like all shy and nervous and blushing. And Lance was like, sorry. I told him not. I mean, I'm blushing.

I wasn't even there. I'm blushing. And I gave him my phone number. And then, like, a couple days later, I had a message on my voicemail that was like, like, I found out later, Lance told me Justin wrote, like, they wrote it. They were like, what if she doesn't answer? What are you going to say? And so Justin and Lance crafted.

exactly what he was going to say and then he said it. And then, you know, Justin was in the background screaming like, he likes you. And it was just, it was so cute. And then we dated for almost a year. What? And we went to my prom together. Yeah, my high school prom. That's crazy. Did that feel like at the time were you like, this is what happens when you're a person on television, is that you date people in sync? Yeah, I think so. I think it did feel kind of like, well, yeah, you know, these are these are the people I hang out with. Like I spent definitely more time with people in the industry, even with going back to my regular school, even with going to dances, even with going to football games.

The majority of my time was spent with other people who worked in the industry. And there is a shared history that you, even if it isn't exactly the same, there's a shorthand with people who work in the same industry that we do. And was he your first, like, serious boyfriend? Yeah. I mean, he was my first serious boy. I mean, yes, I went to his, I met his, I flew to before Christmas and met his family. And he came to and stayed at my parents' house. Did he ever tell you when he was going to come out? He did tell me before he was going to come out. And at that point, it was like, when he broke up with me, I was the only person who probably

hadn't suspected it at that point, truly. My mom said to me when we broke up, he just broke up, We are schedules and all of this stuff. And I was, like, I thought this had been going pretty well, to be honest. Like, I was traveling with you. And I was, when I had hiatus weeks, I was going on tour. And when you were off, you were coming out here. And we talked on the phone all the time. And I thought it was, you know, going fine.

And then my mom, I called my mom just sobbing. And my mom said, Danielle, you know, can I ask you a question? And I said, yeah. She said, were you in Lance ever intimate? And I said... I mean, she asked you something that I don't know if I want to know. And I said, no. And she said, okay, well, do you think there's a possibility?

Lance might be gay. And I was like, no, you're just saying that because you don't want me to feel bad. Hold on. I know it was a different time. I know the bases were different. Yeah. But, I mean, you were... We did a lot of making out.

Okay. Heavy petting. Sure. Not really. Just a lot of making out. It was a different time. And I think for people listening, if you're not our, like my age or your age, you'll be like what? Like my, I was literally thinking about this the other day. Like, I think that for young people these days, I'm afraid that first base is sex. I know. I know. And I was, I was 17 and then 18 when he broke up with me. And I was a virgin. Very different time. And I also, again, I was a late bloomer. Yeah. I was comfortable. comfortable, truthfully, with, like, as much as I... I'm fine with it.

I did want to... I did. I thought prom was going to be it. Right. I had decided. And that was a turning point for Lance, too. And he talks about it with me. Yeah.

We've talked about it many times since. It was a true turning point. That's when he realized he had to break up with me. Because he wasn't going to be able to keep this going anymore without really hurting me. I'm just looking at your prom picture right now because I always sent it to me. Do you see the hover hand? It's hand hovering over my back? Why is it doing that?

Well, probably because he needed to leave room for Jesus. Stop it! I don't know. This is such a cute picture. Oh, I like your dress. Thanks. Sorry. Thanks.

It's a two piece, which was, I don't know. Oh. What happens at prom, though? You're bringing, like, a rock star who is, like, very famous at that point. Very famous in 1999. And, like, does the gym explode? Like, all of a sudden, like, you stop becoming the person they know and now you're the TV star with the music star? Well, yeah, everyone was like, Danielle is brilliant.

bringing Lance Bass. Like they couldn't have cared less about me at this point, but like Lance was a big deal. And I do remember thinking, oh, I didn't, I didn't really quite put this together, how big of a deal this would be. And I think it's partially because even though I was nowhere near as famous as Lance was, I was so not a big deal at my school. I just assumed everyone had the same attitude of like, oh, yeah, no celebrities are big deals, which is of course not true. When we then we're planning like, you know, the pre-prom that we used to do where you go to somebody's house and the parents take pictures, we arrived at that house and the entire, when I tell you, the entire community was there and all the kids and their siblings.

And this was before cell phones and Instagram and all those things. Yes. This was just. People would go in person to look at a human. Right. Oh, yeah. And they showed up in droves. And I remember thinking, what did I get him into this poor guy?

And what I didn't know. and he was, there was a time where he was like, I really have to go back to the car. Like I have to leave this. And I was like, yeah, yeah, I get it. Let's go back. Let's go back and sit in the car. And then we'll just wait to go to the dance.

But he didn't get to go to his prom. So when he was able to go to my prom, he was like, this is great. I'm living vicariously through you. I'm going to pretend this is my prom. So it was also like really fun for him. But yeah, we pretty much shut the neighborhoods down. Wow.

And I guess the take home of that is like, maybe your mom's right about some things. Not yours. I'm saying maybe mom's in general. Yeah, my teacher on the show too as well. My set teacher asked me. She was like, do you think, he said, do you think maybe Lance might be gay?

And I was like, you guys are all just saying that to make me feel better. You just think there has to be a reason like he must be gay. That's the only reason he would break up with me. That is really what I thought. I thought, these people love me so much. They want me to think that it's not because of me.

It's because there's... Well, and the fact is when anyone breaks up with anything. It's really not you. But you mean your worst thought was like, he didn't love me anymore or whatever. There must be something wrong with our relationship. Because he wouldn't tell me. It was literally just like, there was.

There was. Yeah. But I didn't, I just couldn't see it. Right. And then years later, he told me. So then I was going to say, like, is this, are there any repeating patterns here? Did I ever date another gay guy? No, I didn't.

But what I will say is that looking back into my. earlier years. My very first crush in elementary school. My mom, my mom came to school one day to, like, help, you know, PTA style, like she was going to do something in the classroom. And I was like, Mom, you have to take a picture of Eric. But don't let him see you a picture of Eric.

Do not. This was going to be mortifying. And she was like, I understand, I understand. She had been hearing me talk about this boy that I had the biggest crush on. She gets to school. I'd be like, that's him right there. And my mom turned and she was like, really? That's him, huh? Okay. So she did. She took a picture of him on a snapshot camera and then she printed it out for me and taped it to the garage door so that when I came home from school, however many days later, that picture of him was there. And I cut it out and I put it in a little heart frame and I had it on my desk in my bedroom when I was in elementary school. And you didn't have sex with him either.

No, we were, we were eight. So I, but I had a very big crush on him. And it was then not until like shortly after that time. Then when Lance came out of the closet, my mom said, well, you have often been attracted to men who were most like, and I was like, what are you talking about? And she goes, well, Danielle, I mean, your first, your first crash that you ever had was very obviously with a gay boy. And I was like, what are you talking about? There's no way.

And then, well, wouldn't you know it? I reconnected with him. I reached out to him and I said, do you know that you were my first crush? Do you know that I printed a picture of you? And I framed it into a heart-shaped thing and you were on my desk for years. We need to rent you out like Danielle's Gator. Yeah. If I think he's hot and I'm super into him, you should probably run the other way.

It probably won't be his type. Do you think there's like a characteristic that you can boil down that or is it is a general thing? Have you dug into this? Some women like unavailable men. You may be taking it to that level. I mean, I do think, I think when I think about the time with Lance, the thing I did love is that I did feel very safe with him. I felt very safe with Lance. And I, as much as I thought 17, 18 year old Danielle, that's, this is it. Prom is going to be the time. I truthfully wasn't ready for sex. I, I, in my mind had convinced myself. This is, I'm at the age when people do this.

You hear about it often happening on prom night. We've been together for a long time. There were all of those factors that were telling me that must mean this is what's next for you in your life. You have no idea what's going to happen the first time you have sex. And like when you're 17 or 18 and you're going to prom, I don't know if that's the time that I would choose for myself either. And I didn't.

Yeah. And I, in hindsight, go, I remember there being a small sense. of relief that it then didn't happen. And any time it didn't happen, somewhere in me felt very a sense of like, well, it's out of my hands that it didn't happen. It's not because I have to have the ability to say, you know what, I'm actually not ready for this.

That kind of... We didn't have those words. No. We didn't even know to have those words. No. There was kind of, I mean, I don't mean to sound like an old person, but like there was kind of no such thing. My mom tried to give me those words, though, because my mom was very big on, you can tell me anything.

Even if I'm really not going to like it, you can tell me anything. And I will talk to you about it. We will talk it out together. And so, again, another time I thought I was going to have sex in high school with another boyfriend I had before Lance. And I took her to lunch to tell her. I'm going to have sex with him. You took your mother to lunch to tell her you were going to have sex for the first time? Sure did.

Then what happened? And she talked me out of it. Did she say he's gay? She didn't. He was not gay. But she did say to me, she was like, okay. I remember, I took her to Chin Chin Chin Chin. In Zena. And we were eating Chinese chicken salad. Of course, the delicious crunchies. And I remember being like, so I've called this meeting. No, that's not normal, Danielle. I've called this meeting. Because I have something I want to talk to about. It's very important. She was like, okay, what is it? And I said, I'm going to lose my virginity on Valentine's Day. Again, another day. What? You know most people weren't doing this with their moms. I do know that, but my mom and I had a very...

I mean, just sample from the room. Anybody over there? No? No. Okay. Just me. Jonathan? No.

Definitely not. My mom and I, we spent a lot of time together. I pretended like I ended at the neck. Like, with my mom. Like, everything you need to know is here in my face and my head. My mom and I, were very close and I did feel very comfortable. I mean, I was, I was nervous. Okay, wait, so what'd she say? She was like, I wish your mom was here. I know. My mom, I remember seeing her whole body like,

she wanted to vomit. Like, I remember seeing it. And then I also remember seeing her fully, like, regain her composure. And she was like, okay. Why? And I was like, well, we've been together for five months, All the reasons. Here's the spiel. Been together for this long. I love him. It's Valentine's Day. So romantic.

All these stupid reasons that have nothing to do with anything. But all of these reasons. And she was like, well, let me just propose to you that whatever day you lose your virginity is going to be special because that event happened. It's not going to be special because it's 214. 214 is not the thing. No, it's made by Hallmark. Yeah.

That's not going to be what makes it special. What makes it special is the person, the relationship, and whatever day that happens to be will be special on its own. So let's take its Valentine's Day off the table. Great. Also, this, we've been together for five months, then. Sorry. What is five, five months? Like, five months is not, that's not long.

That's not even, that's not even, that's not even. special and you don't even go to the same high school. So really, like five months? What is really five months? How much time have you really spent with this person? So are you annoyed with her already? I'm a little annoyed with her, but I'm also thinking like, let her finish. Mom, I want to have sex. Right. And that's basically where we ended up. We ended up with me just being like, whatever, mom, you told, like, of course, we went into it, but we went into it when I was going to convince her that she was going to be like, well, you've thought this through rather well. And that sounds like a good idea. And when that didn't happen, I was annoyed, but also knew very much that I was going to

not tell her that what she said made a difference to me, but that it had. And so what I did all the time with my mom was tell her, well, thanks for nothing, that didn't change my mind at all. I'm still going to do what I want. And for her to walk away thinking, I think I may have gotten through to her a little bit. And then for her to just cross her fingers and hope that she did. And then I always did the thing that my mom recommended that I did. I just, you know, I just. And I may have gotten. I just, just, I walked out of there and I was like, yeah, I'm just not going to do it now. I have a question. You, you've been married twice, correct? Yes. I'm curious if she had any opinions about your first marriage, because it sounds like she's kind of got her finger on the pulse here.

She really does, yeah. Did she, did she have feelings about your first marriage that felt consistent when it ended? Yes. Yeah. She, and she didn't dislike my first husband at all. Right. She, she liked him. She did not think we should have gotten. married. And I don't think she tried to necessarily hide that from me. She wasn't like... I just want to see how accurate she is. She's very accurate. Very, very accurate. And she, yeah, she did not think that was necessarily a smart decision for me. And when then I thought I had this bombshell news that the relationship was, that we were going to get a divorce. And both my parents were like, yeah, okay, that's about right. And I was like, wait, what? But yes, in hindsight,

Neither of them really hid that from me. They asked all the right questions. And yeah, I think I also knew going into it that that relationship wasn't going to work. But again, you know, it's Valentine's Day. I was of the right age and we had been together for a while. And I, one of my favorite sayings is learn from the mistakes of others because you don't live long enough to make them all yourself. I did not ever do that. I loved the saying, loved the sentiment,

didn't ever really learn from those mistakes until after that marriage. After that marriage was really when I was like, okay. What are you doing? When did you get into therapy? Shortly after that marriage. Yeah. Where I was like, okay, I look at all these different relationships. They all have totally different problems.

They all look like totally different people. but I keep picking them. There has to be something. What did you pick? Well, in that later stage of my life, it was that I like, I like to be in control. And that, you know, type A, Danielle, that is so high achieving. Yes, caretaker, all of that stuff. I liked the, without realizing it, I was very attracted to somebody whose life could very easily be picked

up and dropped into mine. Say more. Like someone who maybe doesn't have a super strong self-identity, someone who's maybe still figuring things out and is somewhere on a fence where they could go, well, I could do that or I could do this or I could do that or I could do that. So that for me, whatever decisions I made, they could kind of go with that. I also definitely liked people who I felt like I could help that I my caretaking, my efficiency, my intelligence also. Thank you. Yes. That I could, that I could, that I could see a positive improvement in their life. And I could say, we did that. We did this, that I'm a good influence in your life, but never really thinking about, well, what are, what is the influence that they are having in my life? Is it reciprocal?

And so I realized that I also really, I mean, truthfully, one of the bigger things is not necessarily having extremely strong opinions about things so that they, we just always agreed. Isn't that great? We just always kind of agree. But then what happened every single time is that at about the two and a half year mark. I would look at the person I was in a relationship with and I would go, so what even are you? Who even are you? What do you like to do?

What do you? And they were like, oh, and I would think that was their fault. And then I would go, but ultimately, that wasn't their fault. I picked them partially because of that. And then I allowed, I wanted them to take on my beliefs and then blamed them for not having any of their own. So it was at that point, I realized like, I really need to find somebody who is kind of established in who they are. And even if who they are is very different from who I am, that's okay. I just want them to be able to articulate who they are and why they believe in what they believe

and why they do what they do. And that that person is also willing to have discussion about whether or not that is the best way and are willing to challenge me about why I do what I do and why I think what I think. I mean, you've just, that's like one of the best descriptions of emotional maturity that I think I've ever heard. I mean, you're talking about it from an experiential point. Also, I completely forgot to mention, you studied psychology. Yes. Like you, at one point, we're interested in being a marriage family therapist. So, like, also, some of this is, I think, academically based. But also, it sounds like you have a lot of good intuition. And it sounds like whatever sort of, you know, cathartic process came after, you know, your first marriage.

It sounds like you've really utilized it well. I love how you describe that, though, because also so many times when relationships don't work or when we go to therapy, you know, what we want is we want to be told that we were right. And we want to be told like, well, he was a loser, you know, or like, or he was fucked up. But what it sounds like, and the place that it feels like you've come to such a place of maturity, which I find really inspiring because I don't consider myself very mature myself, is that what you found was how to make eye statements about it. Yeah. Right? Instead of saying, he wasn't established. or he didn't have this. What you literally described to us is, I need someone who has more of an

identity. Like, that's important to me. I need that. And if people don't have that, God bless them. Totally. There's people for them too. I'm always afraid, like, but no one will love that. There's always a lady who will be fine with it and who has more emotional resilience than me to handle that person who doesn't know who they are. Correct. Yes. And that's, I think that for me was like such a great lesson to unfortunately have after too many failed relationships and then a failed marriage to realize, oh, those are the things you're supposed to be finding out when you date to recognize. It takes more than five months. Yes, it takes more, especially when you're in high school. It's like, yeah, nine hours of your day is spent in a classroom, not even with that person.

And then, like, so really, maybe you've gone out with them 20 times to dinner total. And that's, you know, Anyway, it was like way too, it felt way too late in life to learn. Oh, that's why my mom used to say to me, Danielle, if you're always just jumping into a relationship with the next person who's available, how are you ever going to be available when the right person comes along? What? Did your mother study? Is your mom my new therapist? I know. No, she did not.

What's your mom story? My mom, she's truly a magical person. I love her so much. Like, did she never studied this stuff? No. What did her parents do for? for a living. So her parents were from Malta. They came over here in 1952. I don't even know where that is. Anybody? It's a small island country off the coast of Sicily.

Sicily. And so she's Italian. It's an Italian place. She does not say that. The Maltese will Oh, sorry. I'm sorry. Really jump on. They are Maltese, but sure. But it's near Italy. Yeah. But it's a distinct ethnic population. It's a distinct ethnic population. They have their own, the Maltese language. Okay. I don't mean to sound stupid. No, no. Valerie will edit this so I don't sound stupid. No, no. I was going to guess Greece. That's most people say, oh, so Italian or Sicilian. No, Maltese. Those people are racist.

I've got it right. So your grandparents were Maltese. They were Maltese, and they came over here in 1952. My mom was born in San Francisco in 1958. What did your grandparents do for a living? My grandfather was very into technology. So he just actually passed away this past March at 99 and a half. Oh, wow.

And he still right up until the time he died, with the exception of the fact that he had some arthritis in his hands was the person you brought your laptop to or any, any technological thing and said, this is broken and he would fix it. Wow. So he was into, he had a television repair shop. He worked for Pack Bell for a long time. He was actually one of the people responsible for transferring all of the Southern California colleges from paper onto computers. So he helped do that transfer. And what about your grandma? And my grandmother was a bank teller. And my mom. was very artistic. She's very intuitive and a feeler type person.

And had she been told when she was young that she could be anything she wanted to be, she would have been a makeup artist. But she was told, no, you don't work in a service industry. You're going to be a bank. You're going to come to America and do that. You're going to be a bank teller. And so she worked in a bank. And then, you know, she was in a release.

She met my dad at 15. Right. They then got married at 21. and she was all her plan all along. She didn't want to go to college. So she didn't go to college. Wow. She wanted to be a stay-at-home mom.

So they got married at 21, had me at 23. You're an only child. Nope. I have a younger brother who she had when she was 27. So he's four years younger than me. Wow. And long story short, just to tie up my mom. Something's in that Maltese water.

Another. Whatever oceans around that. I want to drink that water. My mom is now a makeup artist. After the divorce. After the divorce. Married for 30 years and then said, Hey,

Why have I never done this? You know, I guess just going back to, again, her childhood of thinking, well, because they told me I shouldn't, I'm going to do it now. So she went to makeup school and now she has a thriving bridal makeup business. And almost every weekend she does wedding makeup for brides. I do want to ask a follow-up question. Your first son was born a month early, which is premature, obviously. And one of the things that we worry about when babies are born early is lung development. And was that something that he specifically struggled with?

Well, yes. I went into labor with him. I was directing Ravens Home. And it was a Thursday night. Friday night was the live studio audience taping. And that Thursday, I had had the easiest pregnancy, flew through the pregnancy. That Thursday, I was experiencing a lot of. swelling. My ankles were super swollen. I was just experiencing things that I had not really experienced.

And I just needed to do Friday, the live studio audience taping. And then that next day, Saturday, started the four weeks I was taking off before the baby was born. Before the baby was born. And that night, I went home and I was telling my husband like, oh, my gosh, my ankles are so swollen. I'm going to put my feet in the cold pool. And I did. And then we watched holy moly on ABC. And then I went upstairs and my water broke. Whoa. And I had not yet done my, I had not done the, like, watched the videos that you were supposed to watch or done any of the things. And so I thought I was just having a very strange pee. Oh. And I was like, this is a, it was like a slow trickle. Yeah. And I was like, this is going on forever. And there's no more relief feeling. It's just this weird slow trickle. And then it all of a sudden it hits me. Oh, I think my water's breaking. Oh my gosh. So I tell my husband, my wife. water's breaking. He goes, what does that mean? And I go, it means the baby is coming. What were y'all doing for 36 weeks? Hmm. Wasting our time, apparently. He's like, you mean right now? Like, like sometimes

soon? And I go, yeah, I think sometimes soon. So I don't call my doctor first. I call my associate director because I need to know if she's going to be able to take over for me the next day to direct. So I call her first. She goes, Danielle. As your baby's head is on your service. Correct. She goes, Danielle, hey, what's going on? I go, Hey, I'm on the toilet. Just water breaking. And she goes, no, no, go to the hospital, go to the hospital. And I go, okay, she goes, what did your doctor say? I said, I haven't called her yet. I just want to make sure, are you good for tomorrow? Can you take over for tomorrow? And she said, yes, absolutely. Of course, anything you need. And I said, thank you so much. And I still didn't call my doctor. I had to call the UPM.S. UPM is okay with Linda. UPM is the union production manager. Yes. I need to make sure she was, she was aware that this was going to be happening. Linda is going to be taking over for me, Linda Terrick, the best. This is very, very type A behavior while in labor. And then I called my doctor.

And I told my doctor and she was like, oh, okay. She said, so I'll let the hospital know you're coming in. And I said, no, no, no, that was not my plan. I'm not going in. I wanted to labor at home for as long as possible. Okay, sorry. I'm telling you as if it's happening in real time. As if it's happening right now.

Honey, go. And she goes. It's 36 weeks. Right. And she, my doctor goes, well, okay. Well, I guess go ahead and stay at home until you can't anymore and then come in. And I said, okay. So I put a pad on because I have to now pack a bag.

I hadn't packed a bag. Hadn't packed a hospital bag. Start to pack a hospital bag and then say, oh, I should tell my acupuncturist. Because I had seen an acupuncturist before I got pregnant and then saw an acupuncturist through my entire pregnancy. I called her. There are certain places you should not have acupuncture, which I'm sure your acupuncturist knew.

I just want to say that because I don't want people to be like, well, it's because she had acupuncturists. No, there are certain places you do not touch when a woman is pregnant. just wanted. Absolutely. And she was wonderful and I called her and she was the one who said to me, Danielle, I am not an alarmist. Do you know this about me? She had intuition. She did. She said, I need you to go to the hospital. 36 weeks is early for your water to break. So I need you to go. And I was like, oh, but that's not my plan. And then I'm going to go there and I'm going to be in the hospital forever. I was so annoyed that my plan was not going to be carried. out. And then I got there and my doctor did an ultrasound and we watched her face drop. And my son had a condition called chylop thorax, which is a buildup of lymphatic fluid between the lung and the lung cavity. And at first, she thought it was fluid around his heart. And so the face drop that, especially my husband saw, was her thinking, this baby has fluid around his heart, and,

which is a significantly bigger deal than chylothorax. Kylothorax is still a big deal, but fluid around the heart is very concerning. And so they immediately checked me in. They gave me, I can't, sodium magnesium to stop my contractions. They gave me all the injections to the steroids to try and build up his lungs. And they said, you know, so there's still enough amniotic fluid in there that he is totally fine. Water can break. It can leap.

It was a slow trickle. It was just they basically, we stopped it. There was enough. He was, they said, he is great right now. But you will be delivering in a triage, basically. And we don't know whether or not he will be breathing. We can't tell how much fluid. There's, you know, it's kind of an imperfect science.

And they said, so we have a helicopter on the roof when you go, when you go into delivery. They basically were monitoring everything. And then on the day, they said, okay, now you don't have enough fluid anymore. So how long were you in this state? Five days. Oh, God. I went in Thursday night. They induced me on Monday.

And you're just essentially waiting. Laying there. Trying not to do anything stressful because that will make your fluid start dropping. And also, you know, going from I've had a perfectly healthy pregnancy, I'm going to have a perfectly healthy baby to there's a helicopter on the roof. And when you deliver, he may be whisked away to children's hospital if he doesn't breathe. And so. And you can't take heavy sedatives because you're pregnant because you're pregnant because you just want to not. Our doctor said to us, and she said, I just, I'm going to need you guys to take tonight and grieve.

I just need you to grieve all of the things you thought this was going to be. It will not be that. You may not get skin to skin. All the things that you imagine you're going to do, it just, it may not be that. And so take tonight and do nothing but grieve that. And that was like the most, the strongest, most bonding. experience my husband and I could have ever gone through, where we, without even talking about it or realizing it took turns having to be the strong one while the other person broke down.

And then they induced me on Monday. So you were able to have a vaginal delivery? I did. I had a vaginal birth. As a matter of fact, because I asked that, I said, wouldn't it just, should we get it out? Yeah, shouldn't we do a C-section? And my OB said, a lot of people do opt to do that. she said, but truthfully, the best thing you could do is a vaginal birth because your, the contractions will squeeze out. Squeeze out the fluid in his lungs. So when I got to the point where he was crowning, she said to me, if you can, just stop pushing. Let it. And have a few more contractions. And then, and so that's what we did. We did that a couple of times. Oh my gosh. And then we got him out. Talk about feeling like you were literally giving birth to your child. Like you were a real active participant. I was a very, very

active participant in it. It was incredible. And then I lifted him out. That's an amazing man. And we did get to have a few moments of skin to skin. And then they whisked him away to the NICU. And he was he was in the NICU for the first month of his life. And Kyla Thorax usually results in the lungs needing to be punctured. They just stab through the chest and drain the fluid and they were monitoring him and monitoring him. We stayed at Tarzana, which is where I delivered him. We stayed at Tarzana for the first nine days. And then it got, it was kind of a roller coaster, flew it up and down. And then when it got to a point where they said, we're not the best people for this anymore, he was transferred in an ambulance to Children's Hospital. And he was

there for the next three weeks. That's a traumatic first birth, though. Yes, absolutely. And I, I had a very difficult physical recovery from that birth as well. And I was, I don't know how much of that was just because emotionally I was a complete. Also, when you're on bed rest like that, it's, I was on bed rest before my first. And so also the time in your body's life when it needs to be active, it needs to be moving because you're preparing for labor, which is very, you know, full of exertion. And also, like, we're mammals that need to instantly take care of an infant. So our body also needs all those resources to be able to essentially run with your child because that's what, you know, what our primate need is. Right. So yeah, your body is not feeling. I mean, I remember it was like

walking through jelly. My first was in the NICU as well. And I also remember I had a superhuman charge of energy of like, where is my child? Like I felt like I had to be so vigilant. So I was like walking through jelly and like you're wearing that weird frozen pad, but also it's like everything in you is like, I need to have my eyeballs on that human. Yes. Well, and there's a part of you that knows like if I can just really focus on all the things, I can distract from all the emotional, like the emotional turmoil if I focus on time to pump, time to do this. What does baby need now? What's that alarm beeping? If I go into task efficient Danielle mode, I don't have to deal with the emotional stuff quite yet.

And your second pregnancy was uneventful? Total uneventful. I did have a miscarriage between, like, right before my, right before I got pregnant with my second. I did have a miscarriage. Wow. And, yeah, I mean, that's no one wants, no one wants to go through that. And, you know, unfortunately, so many people do. And then I got pregnant with Keaton and I had another totally uneventful pregnancy.

But I couldn't enjoy the fact that it was uneventful. the first one was also uneventful until it wasn't. And so it was like, yeah, yeah, sure, I'd go to all these appointments where before, you know, you go in and you're like, oh, fingers crossed, everything's going to be okay. And then it is and you go, oh, wipe the brow. And this time I went in, I was like, yeah, yeah, everything's okay. Sure. Sure. That's what, yep, got it. Everything's great. Moving on. Let's just get to the birth part. And then I had, the entire labor was three hours. Wow. And then they sent me home with him. And I was like, are you kidding? I just, I just had this baby. I'm just, now I just walk out.

I get to take this one home. It felt totally foreign to me. Yeah. My husband is an only child. And we had conversations when we got married about whether we wanted to have one or two or how many. And he said he loved being an only child as a kid. And now at only 43 years old, both of his parents have passed. And they were divorced.

So he was the caretaker for both of them. And the hardest part for him, this was even, you know, his mom was still alive when we were having this conversation. He said, the hardest part for me to imagine as an only child is that when my mom is no longer here, who will I say, remember when to? And so when we had that traumatic first experience with Adler being born and then we had the miscarriage, it was, I was still very sure. and I had the benefit of having learned and experienced the sadness and unfortunate nature of a miscarriage through all the people who have so kindly shared their experiences. I felt so I knew I was not alone.

And so it didn't make me feel like, well, this is probably only just going to keep happening. I felt very much like, thank God for all those women who had shared with me before, that I know I can also overcome this and that there could still be a healthy another pregnancy for me. and then there was. And so I had that. And I think every woman who's ever talked about it, and anybody who has, you get those comments that are like, some things should just be private. And there's always that double-edged sword of being a person who feels like, well, my story may help someone else and somebody else to say, well, that's a private matter. But for anyone who's ever shared that, it did definitely help me. Well, and I just so appreciate you mentioning it because it is,

it's very, it's common, you know, and, you know, and there's a lot of, a lot of ways to understand, you know, many pregnancies, they're not viable, meaning it's the body's way of, you know, interpreting a very, very complicated message. Yes. Anyway, well, thank you for sharing that. Thank you. I want to ask one more question in terms of Boy Meets World. We've had a lot of people who were on television in the 90s on, and this is a question that we like to ask. And why do you think people are so into nostalgia? I think it makes them feel good. I think it makes them feel good. I think, you know, it's funny because if you actually think about why so many people are in therapy and then you talk about your childhood and your home life, it's surprising that that's the

time you go back to when you want so much comfort. But I think for TV, for a lot of people, TV was an escape and they could feel really good when they were watching that. And they could forget about their life problems. In particular for Boy Meets World, I know Boy Meets World for a lot of people made them feel really seen. You know, it was, we tackled a lot of heavier subjects that weren't necessarily covered for kids. And they saw themselves in those situations. So, I mean, I think it's, I think it's just like a warm blanket. Well, Danielle, it's been such a pleasure to get to talk to you. And where can people find out more about you if they want to learn all things, Daniel? I'm on Instagram at Daniel official. And, yeah, and obviously the pod, pod meets world. You can, you can hear us there.

Awesome. Thank you so much. Thank you. All right, here's where we announce the new podcast, the Blossom rewatchables. We make you go back to every moment of your childhood. With Danielle Fischel's mother. I want, you know what I want? I want to talk to Danielle Fischel's mom, and I want her to just go over my entire life and point out all the mistakes that I made so that I can see the pattern so clearly.

you're just like also maybe she should be like a personal consultant I mean makeup artists are practically personal consultants and I wonder if her insight is as deep with other people or she just knows Danielle so she knows what's right for Danielle oh I'm like I think her mom is actually psychic this is my this is my theory we didn't ask her that do we do we think she's psychic or an intuitive well I mean I think a lot of people might say like the Lance Bass thing doesn't need to be his psychic

But I just thought, I don't know, she just seems, I don't know, the way she described her mom. And also, I just think that, you know, that seems to be a huge component of her life, you know, is this relationship, which, I mean, I think for most people, like, you can't, we've had other people on. We've had some very famous people on talk about their relationships with their moms, right? Jeanette McCurdy, we talked about. Melissa Joan Hart, you know, a lot of people, a lot of actors in the industry, you know, get this very, very close relationship with their mom. And it seems like she had a very, very reasonable, very reasonable.

very reasonable, you know, set of teen years, all things considered. I really enjoyed talking to her. Also, forgot to mention she has a hair care company called Be Free, which is like a hair company that focuses on products without harsh chemicals and stuff. I didn't get to ask her about that. They're cruelty free. And anyway, I wanted to mention that. When you say all things considered, considering that she was on tour with Insink at the height of their global stardom, like, we didn't talk about, like, did she go overseas? Like, what was on tour with them, meaning. Not having sex.

Oh, I'm going to take a break from my job on television and going to school and my downtime is going to be touring with the most popular rock band at the time or pop band, I should say. I mean, look, you know, I'm very, I'm happy for her also that it created like a little bit of a social life because, you know, meaning a social life in the industry, because that was so much a part of her life. And it sounds really nice that she had, you know, also, you know, a reasonable high school experience. But I think it's really nice. Sometimes celebrities pair up with each other. It's cute. What struck me about the notes process that she was describing as, you know, I've heard you talk about

this and have seen you go through it. The notion that they do the table reading and then, you know, they go through those notes and then the next day, are you on the good list or the bad list? Did you get good notes? You want to come back and get that approval as it relates to her type A and like wanting that. And it just struck me that as a kid, you're like, well, did I do it right? You're kind of on edge. You're going to like, am I going to get criticized this time? Even if it's nice criticism and it's constructive, that's got to take its toll.

You have to be so vigilant. And I think, you know, like she said, all those qualities, you know, all those qualities that are important and valued for that kind of industry, it's very easy for those to turn into like the way you become codependent, right? Or the way that you make unhealthy choices. And I always like to find when we speak to actors, who were popular and that people have an interest in, I always like to try and find, you know,

what's the thing that is universal? It's not just about being an actor. And I think even though it's on a bigger scale when you're an actor and in that position, you know, I think we all have situations in our teen years and in our homes where it's like, what's expected of me? What's the way to slide under the radar?

What's the way to not make trouble? What's the way to not be heard or not be seen? You know, and a lot of us pick up those patterns very early in life, because in many cases, our parents have their own issues that are louder. Or sometimes we have another sibling with an issue that's louder than ours. So I think in situations even outside of the industry, we all kind of experience, you know, everybody experiences that.

But I just, obviously, it's really fascinating to picture her out with Lance Bass and, you know, on this really, this really famous show going through all those things. So it was really a pleasure to talk to Danielle. I was also struck by her explanation of looking to, fix people and looking for people who needed fixing and they were somewhat in transit or in limbo and not really having a strong identity. And I wonder, I'm making a reach here, but she got all these notes, right, as a kid. And I wonder if like you have a need or she has a need to give notes and to see improvement. And then, you know, two years in where she's like, who is this

person even, even though she has chosen someone who fit that criteria? to start with, she then gets two years in and is like, well, I want someone with more structure or core or roots that are deeper. But I wonder if it is a level of needing to give notes to someone and see that improvement and feeling like, especially moving into directing too, I wondered if you could relate to any of that. Yeah, I think that's an interesting observation. You know, from what I heard and just from my experience, you know, in the industry, the industry tends to select for kids who are obedient and for individuals who follow directions and do all those things that she said. So I think it's almost like a, it's like an artifact,

you know, that the industry has this selection process for people who are sort of programmed. And some of it is just genetically, you know, like they're just innate. Like, you know, she spoke really early and she was really precocious, which I'm surprised they didn't get her into commercials earlier, you know, know, but I think part of it is sort of there's genetics and then there's an environment that sort of, you know, raises you the way you are. But once you're in the environment of the industry, those things will be exacerbated. You know, and when we spoke to Mara Wilson, you know, who had early success as a very young actress and was very articulate and precocious and was working with Robin Williams at a very young age and, you know, was holding her own, I think she talked

a little bit about that there's like a sense of fatigue, you know, but for people, people, you know, with like Danielle's personality, you know, she's got so much energy around that. And it sounds like she really could turn so much of the negativity around. And even though she admitted she struggled in the last years, she was able to really realize like that was because she wasn't feeling her best. But I think for people like that, you know, when they're at their best, there's so much activation for them that, yeah, that can then get transferred into, I'm going to apply that to the whole world, you know? And in terms of, you know, do people like that then have a tendency to pick people that need to be fixed and, you know, need to take notes. I definitely thought of

her as a director. Like, you need to have those skills as a director. You need to be able to see the whole picture and figure it all out. And I'm really not surprised. But also, like, I wish we could do, like, you know, if we could sample a bunch of directors, like, do they all have that personality? Do they all pick people that they want to fix or that they want to create? But also, you know, I think that there's a positive side to that, too, you know, she's a compassionate person. And I think You know, she was. And I think people like that, women and men, you know, you're also looking with an open heart at someone's potential and, you know, it can become pathological. They just need to get the blocking in their life right. So they hit their marks and the camera

can pick them up and everything will be perfect. But it's the result of we are a collection of all of our experiences. And if that is an early childhood where that's modeled for you and you, you get acceptance and you're approved by hitting those marks and by taking notes, it's like, of course you're going to want to give other people notes. Like, how could you not want to do? Miami, you give me fantastic notes. And if our listeners want to get notes, this is Jess at Bialik Breakdown on Instagram. And from our breakdown to the one we hope you never have, we'll see you next time.

It's Myam Bealic's Breakdown. She's going to break it down for you. She's got a neuroscience week. HD or two One fiction was a now she's gonna break down So break it down