Mayim Bialik's Breakdown - I Was Enmeshed with My Mom, with Brett Gelman

Episode Date: March 26, 2024

This week we're sitting down with the fearless, hilarious, and thoughtful Brett Gelman (Stranger Things, Fleabag) as he opens up about the challenges that have shaped him, from his early battles with OCD and questioning his identity, to intense enmeshment with his mother and overcoming those tendencies as he navigates adult relationships.   Brett opens up about: - The ways he felt different growing up - His early experiences with drug use - His OCD around numbers and fear of the future - Why questioning his sexuality as a kid led him to have a breakdown   He also shares insights on method acting, the importance of creating space for men to challenge toxic masculinity, and the importance of infusing all of your endeavors with a little bit of yourself.   PLUS Mayim explains why self-centeredness may actually be at the root of our attempts at caring for others!   This conversation is a must-watch for anyone seeking to understand the intricate dance between our past experiences and our present selves.   TUNE IN to find out how facing your past can dramatically reshape your future!   Brett Gelman's new book, The Terrifying Realm of the Possible: Nearly True Stories: https://www.harpercollins.com/products/the-terrifying-realm-of-the-possible-brett-gelman?variant=41073650204706   BialikBreakdown.com YouTube.com/mayimbialik Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

So I would always tell my mother everything that I was doing. I would just be like, I did acid last night. And she'd be like, oh, my, I was like, I did, like, a nitrous party last night. I was, like, sucking down, like, nitrous balloons. Do you think it killed, like, a lot of my brain cells, mom? What was that guilt? What did it feel like? I think I definitely had a massive codependent relationship with my mother.

She was, like, God to me. And I very much put my well-being and required into her hands and required her to answer questions. comfort me over things. She couldn't possibly comfort me over because she's not. God, am I going to hell? No, you're not. Am I going to like die young? No, you won't. She can't tell me those, those things. It still absolutely follows me. Something that I have to work on very hard every day. This need to connect in that enmeshed way. It's an addiction. And I've exhausted a lot of relationships because of that, you know, and not checking that.

And then also getting into relationships that were probably subconsciously going to abuse that as well, you know, or react to that in a way that wouldn't be healthy for either of us. My therapist now really put this into a context form of agency and counteragency. So like living for other people, living to be that thing that you think they want you to be. And then when they don't react how you want them to and don't give you that motherly love, that immeshed love, or the love that you want from them, then taking revenge on them for that, you know, emotionally. Just getting really upset with them. God, I got it. Okay.

Getting overly, irrationally upset. This thing of like disrespect. Yeah. They disrespect me. They don't disrespect me. They're just going about. They're trying to do the best they can in their lives. And they don't have time to have a huge conversation about my problems.

It's my ambialic's breakdown. She's going to break it down for you because you know she knows a thing or two. And now she's going to break down. It's a breakdown. She's going to break it down. Hi, I'm Myam Beallick. And I'm Jonathan Cohen. Welcome to my breakdown.

This is the place where you break things down. You don't have to. Today, we're going to break down an acclaimed actor, writer and comedian whose signature intensity and fearlessness enables him to navigate both comedy and drama. You should already know who we're talking about. We're very, very, very excited to have Brett Gelman with us. Oh, God. Hello.

Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for being here. And for saying I'm acclaimed. Acclaimed. It feels good. And for those of you who've been living under a rock, I mean, there's many rocks you could be, you'd have to live under so much. many rocks to not know who Brett Gelman is. I happen to be an unabashed at Stranger Things fan.

And I don't watch a ton of television, but I dialed in hard to Stranger Things with my teenagers. And so I'm a little bit embarrassed to say that is where I primarily know you from. But if you've watched, oh, I don't know, Fleabag, Curb Your Enthusiasm, Twin Peaks the Return, also love the Adult Swim Special Trilogy Dinner with Friends. Also, you co-wrote so much of these things. Lemon, without remorse, Lyle Lyle Crocodile. And we're actually, we're going to talk about so many things. But you just put out a book called The Terrifying Realm of the Possible.

And I thoroughly enjoyed it. I have a lot of questions about it. But first, we'll just, we'll welcome you. Jonathan, you're a Brett Gelman fan of a vast variety. but in particular, you are a fashion fan of Brett Gelman. Why don't you tell everybody about it? All the pajamas. It seems as though you have like there's a little bit of a stereotype for your comedic roles.

Is that going too far? Some of them have a little bit of overlap in that you're often both in pajamas and often being broken up with and doing a variety of drugs and alcohol. Is that too far? I mean, you know, they like to put me, they like to make me, you know, I play a lot of very flawed characters who gets, you know, who plays dress up a lot. They like to put clothes on the doll, you know. That's, I warrant that. I invite that. And, you know, we all have a very good time. Yeah. Also, your red carpet style is very distinctive. And you're also wearing, I believe that is a Guatemalan fabric on your lovely. coat. I think so. You like fashion. I do love fashion. Yeah. Who dresses you for the carpet? Do you dress

yourself? Like a big girl? I sometimes do. And then sometimes I have a stylist, you know? Yeah. And they help. I don't. Well, I'm asking because I really dislike, like, the whole red carpet, like, stylist, like the conversations and the fittings and the... I believe in that. I believe that's, like, sort of a form of expression. Right. You know, it's part of our... business, we show up, they're taking pictures of us. People are going to see these pictures and public appearance is kind of part of it. It's sort of like a living performance art. So, and it's also clothes that I love. I love fashion. So it's very exciting to dress up. So you're also wearing a really, really nice pearls. Like you're put together, even in your

casualness. Thank you. You're put together fashion-wise. Thank you so much. Likewise. Okay. This is a big effort today. Like, it's a big effort. Okay. You want me? For me too. For me too. Don't get me wrong. Okay, this is a dumb question, but I'm going to ask it. Yeah. Have you done, and forgive me because I haven't looked at all the sort of like, I mean, I've seen some of your press. But have you ever done like a fashion shoot where they like dress up the doll like a fancy suit man doll? I don't know what I mean? Like I'm curious if there's been that Brett. Gelman moment. I love that. You know, I haven't done like any type of major magazine profile yet, which... Like, I want Vogue to be like, let's put Brett Gelman in, you know, a skinny suit. See what happens. I would love that. I would love that. No, I, you know, put me in like Tom Brown, you know. But with a

grill, wearing a grill. That's what, like, I go to this store Mohawk General in Silver Lake sometimes, you know, and they've got really, you know, very fashionably gifted people working there, you know, both in how they dress and their knowledge of fashion. And one of them told me that they were like, I'd like to put you in like a Tom Brown suit, something like really formal and then a grill. And I was like, oh, I can wear a grill. He's like, yeah, you represent the culture. And then he got me as grill guy and I had a grill made. Is that right? Yeah.

Do you want to tell us a little bit about that? Like, because there's a lot of different kinds of grills. Like, is there bling in it? There's a little bit of like... Say my name. It's like up top, it's two tones of gold. Oh, okay. And it says your name.

It says myam. And on the back of it, and on the back of it, it says blossom because that's the first time I met you. No, but, yeah, it's like white gold. and yellow gold on one side. See, I'm glad I asked. See, I have these two different pieces on the bottom that are gold and then have these tiny, very inexpensive, relatively, like, green and blue diamonds type of thing.

Okay. See, first I was like, why am I asking? And now I didn't know that you could do two tones of gold. Yeah, you absolutely can. Top and bottoms. Yeah. Can you close your mouth when you wear it? You can. You can't chew, though.

No, you got to. You have to take it out to chew. Like not even gum. No. Like you can basically like drink water with it in unless you want to. So that's fun at a party when you're wearing it. And then you're like, excuse me. And you have like a sip of wine. You're like my kid with his invisible line. Yeah. And then you exactly. And you take out the grill. And then your TMJ has produced like saliva. And so, you know, it's like then you're, I'm not representing the culture at all when that happens.

I'm representing a different culture. Well, so let's talk about the culture of Highland Park. Yes. Because that is where you're from. Yeah. Tell us about growing up in Highland Park. Jews. I mean, I do know some people from Highland Park. Yeah, no.

It's a place that as I go back to now, I appreciate more. My family doesn't really live in Highland Park proper, but they live very close, a lot of them. My mother, my sister, my aunts, my uncle, some of my cousins. And so it, I definitely was seen as strange growing up there. But I'm very grateful that I grew up in a predominantly Jewish community. What was different about you? Back then? Yeah.

I did not have as much swag. I am very much a late bloomer. I don't know. I don't mean what was different about. out you from the way you are now. I can't imagine you popped out of Highland Park in 1976, like in Guatemalan fabrics with a grill. Right.

I'm saying what felt different amongst your peers or amongst that community? Oh, because it was like, you know, they were very, it's a very sports-centered community. You know, Chicago is in general. And, hey, I mean, I loved the Chicago Bowls when I was growing up. I don't think, like, no matter how. little of an athlete you were, it was hard not to be a fan of the, of the Bulls and Michael Jordan at the time. It was just like, you know, that was a major cultural moment. And, and so, but yeah,

I just, I was, uh, not a confident kid, you know, and everybody would be talking about sports and I'd be watching Mark's brothers and Mel Brooks movies. And, uh, and I, and I cried. a lot. I cried a lot. I cried a lot more than I did now. It was very much like a playground cryer, I think, at times. Not the town crier. You were the playground cry. No, definitely not the town crier, unless town crier meant standing in the middle of the town crying. I have two questions. Were your parents artistic or were they abusive? Where did the crying and sensitivity come from? Both. Both. I mean, my father was like tough guy he was like a real like you know i grew up in a family like that had major swag like they were

like they were hippies and they were definitely like into more the like fashion partying aspect of being hippies than the political peace aspect of it um i mean my mother very peaceful you know and more artistically uh definitely artistically leaning my father was like kind of like a gangster in a lot of ways and uh and like had him i mean he kind of looked like a jewish sam elliott people often thought he was sam elliott and uh he worked at like he read arnold schwartzonager's bodybuilding encyclopedia like all the time you'd be like smoking a joint reading schwarzenegger and then go to the going to the gym like work hard every day you know and then go to the gym and uh and work out really hard for like two hours.

And so he was a very masculine man. And my, you know, my uncles, yeah, they all had that, that well, one of my uncles is still with us, thankfully. But they all have that vibe, him and his two brothers.

And very funny, though, like really funny. Lovers of comedy, lovers of movies and things like that. So, But, you know, he had a temperate. He never hit me, but, you know, he didn't have to. Right.

He did not have to. And so, and you mentioned your mom was kind of artistic? Yeah, she's, you know, she's very artistic. She's still, like, an agent for photographers. Oh, wow. For advertising, you know, she mostly reps them, but she represents a lot of fine art photographers for their advertising work. I mean, she negotiated the being. Beyonce British Vogue, the last British Vogue cover that Kennedy Carter did.

She was representing Kennedy Carter at that time, who, you know, was very, had not done something of that nature before. And so, yeah, she negotiated that whole deal with Beyonce's team and Vogue, which was wild. So, this, like, 72-year-old Jewish woman being like, oh, we, uh. I just talked to Beyonce's creative director today. Like, wow, that's amazing. Yeah. So did you, I mean, were you always sort of artistically inclined? Because you studied theater, right?

You're classically trained. Yeah, always. I was obsessed. But, like, if you knew me, though, as a kid, until I got into high school, it was, like, not really obvious that I was artistically inclined. I think I was more just obsessed as a fan and I was not confident to put that out in my personality publicly.

So I think a lot of people who knew me, I was more just nervous, you know, and had what my therapist would call high agency. And so just really wanting people to like me. Got it. Door mat, you know, very much a format. And so I think, you know, that's sort of the opposite of what people. see, especially basic morons that I was friends with, see as an artist, you know. Well, I mean, but actually as actors, that sort of is exactly what we have to do.

Absolutely. It's make everybody like you, make the maximum number of people in the room like you so that you can then like yourself. Yeah. And then sometimes experiment with making everyone hate you. That's a game we play too. What we call as agency and counter agency. Miami-Bialx breakdown is supported by Superpower. We all know the feeling of leaving a doctor's office

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And after you sign up, they'll ask how you heard about them. Make sure to mention my ambiolics breakdown to help support the show. And you have a younger sister, correct? I do. Yeah. Was she athletic? Yes, very much so. Oh, very much so.

No, because since I was an athletic, she was very obsessed with being the opposite of me. So I was not athletic. I was a terrible student. I was very much like, oh, man, school's a joke. I educate myself, you know. And she was, like, very obsessed with getting great grades and being an amazing athlete. So she played basketball. She played tennis very competitively.

And then every, you know, every night upstairs in the books had to make sure that, like, the TV wasn't too loud downstairs or else she'd go nuts. I mean, I don't, I mean, I love to psychopathologize people who I barely know. Yeah, no, and I love to do that to others and have that done to myself as well. No, it's just interesting because, you know, oftentimes the firstborn will be the studious one, you know, the one sort of who aligns kind of easily, right, with sort of a dynamic in the house. And it's kind of interesting, not that you upset the apple cart, but that you were, you know, kind of this more tender and sort of, you know, Bohemian and she sort of, you know, filled in the blanks, right? Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, I definitely, though, she, like, ran the house, though, a lot of the time. Like, a lot of things that, but she would argue that it's, this is the opposite. The opposite would be true. But whereas I think, I think I was more malleable to the, you know, to the words of my parents. Got it. to the dictations of my parents, besides grades and besides doing my fair share of drugs in high school. Yeah, I was just going to ask, I mean, you know, you just mentioned kind of, you know, both of your parents and sort of, you know, this also sort of like bohemian sensibility. Did that feel like a comfortable place for you? Like, did you enjoy that escape or what sort of appealed to you about that sort of numbing, as it were?

I mean. Yeah. I think, yeah, I think that, I mean, I was never doing hard drugs. It was mostly marijuana and psychedelics. But I was, I would say I did, I smoked marijuana marijuana the most in junior and senior year of high school. I probably is, you know, I would, I would be high all day. Right. And as soon as I would.

How'd that go for you? Well, it, uh, I don't know. I don't, I mean, it was, I definitely went to a lot of great concerts. What did you see? I mean, I was on the last dead tour. There it is, Jonathan. There it is. I didn't get to see them, though.

I went on their last tour. I saw their last two shows that Jerry Garcia ever played. And I was like on, I went with this like hippie family from Highland Park and I was like on a blue school bus that I think they named first. which is what the Mary Pranksters, if you've read the electric coolide acid test, which is an amazing book, what they named their boss. So it's like, okay.

Hey, this is Further Jr., I guess. Yeah. And like on there with their family and then a couple of other friends and selling grilled cheeses in Vermont, which would inevitably be filled with sand and dirt. And, yeah. And that was like the closest I ever got to being like, I got so warped a little bit that I was like, maybe I won't be an actor.

Maybe I'll be a drifter. Oh. Like Neil Cassidy, you know? Exactly. That's exactly what I was thinking. Exactly. I'll be like Neil Cassidy. And then I'll just be this like figure, this like this counterculture, iconic.

How did that jive was sort of your, your parent's sensibility and wishes for you? Like, did they have the, you know, like, stop smoking. weed and get back to school. My mother would get really, really upset with me. We were very much at odds. You know, I would come home to dinner all the time, most of the time late, like high out of my mind. And my mother would be really angry with me.

And my father would also be high out of his mind and sort of be silently backing up my mother and just seeing if I got too volatile and then he would come down. But that was definitely when I was the most rebellious against my parents. and all my heroes do drugs, you know. But, like, I had a guilt about it, too, so I would always tell my mother everything that I was doing. Wait, wait, wait, say more. I would just be like, I did acid last night.

And she'd be like, oh, my, I was like, I did, like, a nitrous party last night. I was, like, sucking down, like, nitrous balloons. Do you think it killed, like, a lot of my brain cells, mom? What was that guilt? What did that feel like? It was just, like, it was a guilt that was so, You know, I think I definitely, I mean, had a massive codependent relationship with my mother.

Right. Very enmeshed with my mother that I'm not anymore. You know, we have a healthier relationship. But yeah, she was like God to me. And I very much put my well-being and required into her hands and required her to answer questions and comfort me over things. She couldn't possibly comfort me over because she's not. God. So, you know, am I going to hell? No, you're not. Am I going to, like, die young? No, you won't. She can't tell me those things. Did your sister have, I mean, I don't mean to get into your sister's life,

but was this a special kind of relationship you had with your mom? Like, was that a you and her thing? That was a me and her thing. And my sister has that, but in a much more combative way than my mother. Well, yeah, daughters and mothers is a different dynamic. Exactly, exactly. That's really interesting. I mean, I'm interested in it because, you know, my family is full of complicated relationships, you know, and it's sort of, there's a sort of constant jockeying for emotional position and ownership. And you want someone else to answer those questions for you. And also it places a tremendous burden then on what you expect of other people.

So it's a very interesting dynamic the way you describe it. I mean, I had obsessive compulsive disorder from a very, young age. So I was like seeing a psychiatrist since I was like in the fourth grade. Oh, that was unusual for when we were kids. Yeah. I had like like for you. Well, I had like, you know, some thing like I like in second grade like I fooled around with my at that point best friend. So I was like, you know, and then you get into fourth grade and then you learn what gay is. And in the 80s, being gay was not good. You know, it was. You know, very homophobic. Society was very homophobic. And so I was like, oh my God, am I gay? And then I had like a

complete mental breakdown, you know, in fourth grade. Got it. And then, uh, and then, yeah, I saw my mother, uh, was like, do you want to, I like laid on the couch for like three days. I mean, I didn't say anything. And then I told my mother and she was very comforting. And I think that that was probably like something that like was the thing that made me go, oh my God, she's God. Because She comforted me in this moment of feeling very lost and confused. I remember watching like, it's pretty young, you know, watching David Lynch's Dune and just seeing the rotting, like, villain and being, you know, like, thought, I'm thinking that I was like losing my mind. Huh. Yeah.

That's really, I mean, that's very young to have that burden on you. Yeah. So then they sent you to a doctor? No, like, she was like, do you want to see somebody? No, that's what I mean. Yeah, no, she wasn't like, I got to make sure. You got to go to a psychiatrist. It was a helpful thing.

I mean, my parents had friends who were gay, who were some of their best friends. I mean, I remember my mother saying goodbye on the phone to a friend of hers who was on the verge of dying of AIDS, you know. And that was a wild. Maybe I shouldn't have been in the room for that call at the age I was at. But as traumatic as that was maybe to my young mind, it also probably was good for me to make sure that I was not homophobic. Right. So what's it like going to a doctor at that age,

especially when there's no vocabulary in the culture at that point for kind of what you were experiencing? He was a very brilliant man. He was a very brilliant man. And he basically let me talk about it. anything that I wanted to talk about. So if I wanted to talk about movies the whole time, you know, because at that time, I was already obsessed with comedies, he would do that.

You know, he did not muscle the conversation ever. And just basically, yeah, I never felt that he was closed off to anything that I said. So he was like an amazing, I mean, he like kind of saved my sanity. He was an amazing man, Dr. J. Hirsch. And... How long did you see him? I saw him for, I think, like a couple years. Wow.

And then I would get in the car, my mother would be like, what did you talk about? And I'd be like, we talked about Gouframed Roger Rabbit. And she's like, no. That's not what you should be talking about the thing that you were talking to me last night

about, like, obsessing that you were going to hell. How you stand like at your, you know, how you can't go to sleep because you keep looking at the clock and it's an odd number. And you got to wait until you see an even number on the clock. you know, all this stuff. But, you know, that's why he was great, though, because you let me lead it.

And he guided me through what my thought process is, which is what I think brilliant therapists do. Right. And then, yeah, and then I was in the theater department in my high school. And then I went to college, you know, to art school, the North Carolina School of the Arts. And, you know, I definitely explained.

Lord what my sexuality may or may not be. Right. But you got to obviously experience that then with this notion of also support and a lack of fear, which... Exactly. Yeah. And so found my, I guess, you know, heterolining in an organic way. Right. Not to say that I don't have fluidity, though.

Sure. I wouldn't say it's a spectrum. Exactly. So I wouldn't say I'm straight. Yeah. But I've never, yeah. Got it. I've never been intimate.

And you're partnered with a female person right now. You're engaged. Exactly. With a lady person. Yes. With an incredible woman. I wonder if you can, we can get to that in a little bit, but I do wonder, you know, obsessive compulsive disorder is one of these things that, you know, it gets a lot of hashtags.

I'm like, I'm so OCD, my shoes are lined up. Yeah. And, you know, annoying people like me and probably you are like, no, that's not exactly. It's interesting you mention numbers, you know, for those of us who live with obsessive compulsive disorder, there's often special numbers. I like to tell this story that, you know, it wasn't until I was in college and a psychiatrist said to me, do you have any special numbers? And I was like, yes. And he was like, oh, and I'm thinking, what's he writing? Doesn't everyone have special numbers? There's so many different special numbers. There's different ways to have my special numbers. Anyway, we're the, we're the, we're the, Were there any other features? Like, did you have, you know, because sometimes like cleanliness will come up or religious obsession or sounds like you had a lot. And actually this comes up in your book, notions of death and dying and heaven and hell.

Were these kind of themes that felt like they had obsessive and compulsive components to them? Yeah. I mean, immense fear of the future, immense fear of the future that I would, you know, of death of not achieving my dreams, I think is the two big things. You know Apocalypse That's another one You know

Just like Like fear of nuclear war Could stop a dinner Right You know I'd have to pull my mother aside And like whispered Like we're gonna

There's not gonna be a Nuclear war is there No there's not There's not Wow She had a lot of power I gave her a lot of power I am an optimist

At the end of the day though I do I am an optimist I believe that we're gonna be okay I have to. But yeah, so a lot of around that, you know, a lot of around that there's nothing after death, that's a big one for me. That was a big one for me.

And my psychiatrist was an atheist. And he told me, he's like, I don't believe that there's anything after death. And I was like, gyrating on the chair, you know, and not in a fun way. Right. And the number, I mean, I was very cliche with the number 13 was like, and it's still my, I still, if I look at the number 13, I'm bummed out. I'm bummed out. Huh.

And I have to fight. That's a negative number for you. Yeah, I hate it. Oh. Very scary. That's so cliche, you know, Friday of 13. Well, I mean, you know what? It's not for me to say what your special number needs to be.

Do you have, is there like a, do you have positive numbers? 14. Oh, you like 14. Because it means you've got through 13. Exactly. And so if I looked, I would have this rich. where if I looked at 13 on the clock, I would have to look away and wait until it was 14 to look back.

And then if I missed it and it went to 15, I'd have to wait until it got to an even number. So it was very much about like odd numbers being evil because they were associated with 13. Got it. And even numbers being good because they were associated with 14. Do you, okay, I'm going to ask, do you also like seven times two or just 14?

No, no. I'm just seven times. But that's an interesting question. I never really thought of that. Now you're making me feel bad. No. No. For me, my numbers,

it's also about the multiples that make them up. Yeah. Well, I think you're probably more intelligent than me. No. It's just different. You're bringing math into it rather than just like blanket. So we like 14.

Any other numbers you like? I like six. It's my birthday. Oh, okay. I like that. Yeah. What month? October.

Oh, got it. Yeah. I mean, I like even numbers. Right. And then odd numbers make me feel a little clenched. Uh-huh.

And you're born in an even year or two. Exactly, 1976. Yeah, so like it's 10-6. Yeah, exactly. Right, yeah. Got it. Sorry, I just, I like numbers. Yeah, 16.

No, totally. Okay. Yeah. I have to ask what happened the year that you were 13. I mean, obviously it's bar mitzv a year. Was that a hard year for someone who hates 13 that much? The junior high. So, besides my bar mitzvah, terrible.

I would say that junior high was the worst. That was maybe one of the worst period. of my life. It was just when everybody became their most vicious. And I became my most nervous. And I was the most dormant-ish that I ever had been. That whole account in my book

of when Abraham lets them throw him in the mud, that's an autobiography. Not everything in the book is. Oh, I can tell. That is. Honey, you're not hiding it that way. No, I didn't try to. I didn't try to. Well, yeah. So let's dip into the book a little bit because, you know, it's a very unusual book.

I'm not going to pretend like this is like, this is the summer read at the lake. No, it's a bullet of anxiety. It's a bullet of anxiety. Yeah, yeah. I don't know if I would describe it. Is that? Yes. I want to know what you would say.

So for me, I mean, you know, I was raised on Philip Roth. I was raised on, you know, the writings of Woody Allen. I was raised on, you know, this sort of literary obsession that our country had with a specific type of male author, which, you know, now in the lens of the culture we're in now, it's like, oh, we were so invested in, like, white male experience. And we were, you know, as a literary, you know, happening. Right. You know, I went and saw Philip Roth speak at UCLA with my dad.

This was like, it was a journey. because this was the literature that, you know, spoke to a lot of my dad's experience, that generation. You know, our generation doesn't really have those kind of writers. And then when I read your book, it reminded me of all of the beauty and complexity of telling these stories. And there... That was partially my aim.

Okay. So in my perspective, they're deeply psychologically interesting. nothing is simple. You can't say, oh, this is a story about a character who, blah, blah, you are taken on a journey

with each of these characters and sometimes it's diary entries, sometimes it's poetry, sometimes it's script. I'm not telling you like you don't know. I'm telling people who might be listening. Yeah, no, no, no, no, totally. But also, you know, the book is divided up

into these different personas. And, you know, as a person who's been dipping into internal family systems therapy, you know, these are also parts of Brett, like, meaning they're parts of your creative brain, they're parts of your psyche that may be, you know, working themselves out. And I mean, the book, like, it starts with a bang. Are those your illustrations? Yeah. Okay, so there's also these, like, adorable illustrations for each of the characters.

And they're really awesome. Thank you. But, but, yeah, this first character, Abraham, you. You know, he's lovable, but he also elicits a lot of compassion. And you don't pity him, but you tell us about who that character is and why sort of you chose to start the book with Abraham. Also, the first Jew, Abraham. Yeah, well, it was very much like to show, yes, it was very much to show,

I mean it's a pretty a simple concept that my editor helped me form a little bit of the you know of like let's I think you know my editor very brilliant guy named Stuart Roberts like you know saw like what I was going to bring to the table in terms of my writing and and then yeah we formulated this idea of five ages

you know five you know five different people at different ages And then I basically blasted off from there. And he, I mean, I would say that the closest to me is Abraham and Mendel. And so, and Abraham is really like a bloodletting of my childhood trauma. And I really, you know, you talk about those writers. And, yeah, I really wanted to bring back, like, to me, like, Roth and Woody. I mean, without feathers is obviously a huge influence on the book.

That's, like, Jewish culture to me. I wanted to bring back, like, this has value, you know. But do it hopefully in, I've worked to educate myself as hard as I can on all aspects of how we have all evolved in our culture. Yeah, I mean, Woody Allen and Philip Roth in particular, two men who have had a tremendous amount of attention paid to treatment of women. And, you know, recently a beautiful essay, I can't remember the author. I feel bad even mentioning it. But very recently, you know, an essay about can we still read Roth, right? So I think that's also really beautiful that you took an aspect of this art form that for you is so special. And also, I don't want to say salvageable, but it's unique and it still deserves a voice. Yeah, and no man's hands are clean in this culture. No man's hands are clean. And I think that, you know, hopefully one of the things that what we've all been going through is maybe going to take a turn to us being able to have more of a conversation about that.

So that men can more safely change their toxicity, you know? Anyway. But I wanted to put that on full, honest. display, you know, and then show where it kind of starts is that it's this child that is

abused by his own mind and also by the world around him. And that's kind of how I see childhood. From my experience, from my very specific experience.

And And yeah, is there, you know, he is not a character that is poor, you know. He's not a character who, you know, has to deal with some of the really raw realities of life in the ways another child would have to. But, you know, his experience is still, trauma is relative, experience is relative. And so I wanted to bring that so that and do it in a really, immersed way so that even if somebody to challenge somebody to push it away and go oh this is and try to put it in a box

and not you know really resist letting the reader do that well and I think I think there's there's something that I appreciate about your writing which is not dissimilar from your acting trajectory yeah you know there's a real you know Jonathan was talking about about, you know, in particular, a lot of these, you know, a lot of the roles that you play have a real explosiveness to them, you know, a real sense of, like, heightened emotion. And also in some cases, like, persecution, you know, there's a lot of, it's volatile.

Yeah. And I'm not saying that the writing is volatile, but I'm saying you're expressing experiences in all of these different characters that are, they're not pretty. They're not polished. They're not tied up neatly. Do you feel that your writing is, you know, sort of, I mean, obviously, as actors, we can't always control what we're cast in. But, you know, once you have a look or, you know, a voice, you know, that tends to be sort of where you meander. But I wonder if you do see parallels between who Brett Gelman, you know, the guy who, you know, went to art school and then ended up, you know, becoming this actor, if that feels similar to your writer's voice.

Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, I often feel like in my acting, whether I'm writing the thing or not, I'm living out my psychological biography. I think that there's a weird thing that happens to me, and maybe I'm forcing it subconsciously. But I do feel that the peace and my psyche or some aspect of my life, the piece usually, if it's good, is reflecting that. And it sort of plays out. And that's a big bummer sometimes. life-wise, but very exciting, artistically. And I've always got like kind of these two things going,

where I'm a student of people like Groucho and Mel and, you know, comedic actors, like, I mean, the whole, the whole Mel Brooks company, you know, Gene Wilder, Madeline Kahn. But I'm also a student of what one might call the method, you know? Tell us about the method for people who don't know. Well, the method, you know, is very much defined as you live as the character. The whole, you know, and your people, you got to be called the character and you're going home and you're eating the breakfast that the character would eat. That's not really the classic definition of the method. I mean, the classic definition of the method is basically seeking out a sensory experience, you know.

And also, I'm classically trained. So I'm bringing that into it, too, in terms of. of transformation as much as the role requires. And if I can just interject, it's a sort of dissociative identity disorder that actors will engage in. Because you are, in theory, inhabiting the heart rate,

the mental processes, the interaction with the world, you are inhabiting a different person, and that's not just when they yell action. So you're sustaining that. Exactly, exactly, to some degree. You know, whatever the... I think that you can do it

I think it depends on the role how what that process should be. You know, obviously for somebody like Martin and Fleabag, I'm doing something different than I'm doing for Murray in Stranger Things because it's two different worlds. It's being authored by two different artists. And they're two different characters who require different things. You don't want to like over-prepare in a certain way. For Murray, when there's something very iconic about him that's very like,

the comedic relief of the action movie and science fiction movie that I loved, you know, and I wanted to play when I was growing up, you know? And, but then there's also this like profound loneliness to him too that needs to, you know, be put in the recipe. Not to get too, but, yeah, I feel like no matter what I do, it's injecting something that's very different, very unusual, very singularly. me and that I'm pulling together those two forms

you know and then yeah and so like much like following Gene Wilder you know I'm as much learning from Jenna Rollins you know as I watch that happen and I'm just as mesmerized and inspired by that

so yeah I'm like combining those two things I guess like talking about like emotional rawness and psychological rawness and comedic craft and physical craft. How long from the time, let's say, that you graduated school, to sort of making your living as an actor?

I mean, like, really like 10 years. That's a long time, I would say. Yeah. It's a long time. Yeah. What are those 10 years like, especially for someone who, I mean, wants, I mean, as actors, like we want validation, Like the only way that you get like the thumbs up on life is if, you know, we get to do our craft in a way that allows us to support ourselves, right?

Yeah. What were those 10 years like, especially given what you sort of told us about your personality? I mean, the Upright Citizens Brigade were those 10 years, you know? Yeah. Thank God for, I owe my career to that theater to the man who ran that theater, Matt Besser, you know. And I benefited from being one of the only people who knew how to be on a stage at the early days of that theater. So I got on stage very quickly. But you didn't get paid, you know, because there was so many performers.

And they sold tickets for $5. So they didn't really have the budget to pay performers. But I was on stage a lot. I mean, I lived there. And then I sort of went into the alternative comedy. scene of like the alt stand-up world, you know, performing like I was always on Wednesday nights would go to Rafi Fifi on 11th Street and either do or watch Eugene Merman and Bobby Tisdale's show invite them up, you know? And so I was going back and forth between those two scenes. And I was

definitely at invite them up doing some of the most bizarre things that was being done there that I don't know was so audience friendly a lot of the time. I mean, like definitely as like a comedian, I mean, I did, I would do bits like, I mean, the big thing that I would do live was this one-man musical, 1,000 cats. And there was a whole backstory to the character as I sang about enlisted different types of cats and became them in a black Unitard and cat ears. But like I had a whole backstory that the audience knew nothing about that the character was losing his mind. as he performed it. I would do that all the time and I would do, I mean, like all different types of bits where I would, I mean, I like would do, I did a character named Mr. Bonobo where I put on a monkey

mask and did all these like one-liner jokes in a really high voice about bonobos. Those are the monkeys that like to have sex a lot. Yeah, they're like the most human monkeys in a way. masturbatory monkeys. Yeah. So I think like the day I learned what a bonobo was, I would do, I did. Are these things you do high also? I want to know.

I was not like getting high at that point. Because like this sounds fun. You know, I'm just curious. Sometimes like later on. Okay. You know. But no, at this time I was not getting high at this point. I was taking a break from getting high at that point.

Yeah, I don't think my mind was. ever really that I don't think my mind was made more strange by drugs at all. If anything, it me out for a time being. If anything, it numbs me out. And so that's why moderation is key. And so, yeah, I mean, you know, I love, that was like another thing of, like, being a student of, like, loving George Carlin and Richard Pryor. and, you know, Eddie Murphy, even though, you know, those, not everything in those specials, but not anything in any comedy, you know,

there's things you can pinpoint in so much comedy that doesn't age well necessarily. Right. But, like, and, you know, and then, but then discovering Andy, you know, and wanting to do, you know, and then also like Eric Bogosian, you know, was my idol. Yeah, these are all. it's funny because I you know I think of you I think of you in your

acting roles but when I think of your style and then when I read your book I got to see more of those kind of influences you know yeah and I never like I never there are two things that I'm like that's really strange that I navigated that like that and maybe that was a form

of self-sabotage but I never like really besides 1,000 cats never was like this is my my set that I'm doing. I never, like, really performed, like, or pursued having a career in, quote, unquote, stand-up. And I, and I couldn't deal with, like, starting on the ground floor of trying to get into the legitimate theater as well.

Right. So since I've graduated North Carolina School of the Arts, one of the best conservatories in the country, I've only done one play, Tartouf. I know it's not the same, but, like, it's clear, especially when you talk about sort of, you know, method and you talk about these characters, like there's so much complexity to what you do. Um, you know, I, I'm trained in sitcom, you know, so for us, it's like, get to the emotion as quickly as possible. Right. You know, with as little

fanfare as possible, you know, you have to step up your acting game when you act with real actors, you know, meaning like if I were to act with you, it's like you have a whole set of training that's very different from the way I'm programmed, you know. But, yeah, but I would, But not, I mean, I think you're brilliant. Oh, okay. That's not what I can talk about it. I just meant sitcom is so different from like, you know. Right.

But I think like so much of it is repetition. Right. At the end of the day. Right. As much as we want to have our different processes. Exactly. As much as like, you know, and then the way in which I think also being a star, which you are is also a craft, you know, of like really being like,

this is my am. Right. You know, is like, that is not lesser than something that Brando does. You know what I mean? Yeah, no, I appreciate that. And so that's the other thing that I learned. And, like, that was also the thing. Like, when I was doing all of this comedy, people thought I was insane.

And I was like, no, no, no, you don't understand. I'm, like, coming at this from a Peter Brookian philosophical place. This is theater and the rough to me if you read The Empty Space, which was a very influential book, you know, to me. You read the theater and it's double, Antonine Artoe. And he's saying the biggest example of the best example of what the theater should be is the Marx Brothers movie. Wow. You know? And so it's, and you know, like, I remember Jim Jarmish saying, like, I don't believe in elitism when it comes to art.

I can listen to Beethoven's, you know, one of his symphonies. And I give it the same value as listen to Capona Noriega's, war report, you know, that 90s hip hop album. And so, like, I was like, that's how I see things. I don't like, I, I'm not going to compare you to Adam Driver.

Right. You know? Because you both have equally, you know, your craft is equal to me and what you're doing is equal. The process is equal. That's very kind. The relationship you described with your mom is not foreign to me, you know.

And I think it, it is a very, you know, there's a very kind of complicated, loving enmeshment, you know, that many of us of our generation, I think, experienced. And, you know, there's a lot more conversation now. There is conversation about this concept of intergenerational trauma. And that, you know, if you think about it, sort of from a scientific perspective, the egg that became you was in your grandmother's room, because that's when your mother's eggs formed is when she was in your grandmother's womb, right? And I just like think about the things that both of my grandmothers experienced. And, you know, that leaves us with this sort of very complicated matrix, you know, that we then are born into in the 70s,

right? But the notion of this relationship with your mom, I wonder if you found that other places, meaning, you know, to have such a strong desire and also a validation, you know, of a connection. And you talked about sort of, you know, being a doormat. Like, did this follow you into dating? Like, did this follow you into friendships? What was that like? It still follows me. It still absolutely follows me.

It's something that I have to work on very hard every day. the way like this need to connect in that enmeshed way it's an addiction and i've exhausted a lot of relationships because of that you know and not checking that and then also getting into relationships that were you probably subconsciously um going to abuse that as well you know or react to that in a way that wouldn't be helpful for either of us. And so that's a constant thing that I have to check, you know, and because it's that thing of like, like, let's be friends and let's be,

I'm still that kid who like, I have two great dinners with somebody, and I want connection with people so bad because I spend so much of my date, like playing this story out in my head of how alienated I am and how alone I am. that beyond my fiance who I am very connected to and I would say shares this thing with me which is amazing in how we found each other but I don't want to speak for her too much

and the book is also dedicated to her I should mention yes and our dogs who are our fuzzy children and no because she is the greatest person I've ever known in my life and somebody who is a gift you know, for me to not act that way, but then also, you know, is able to work it out with me, and I'm able to work that out with her and we work.

And the work is very exciting. You know, the relationship work is very exciting. And it's very honest. And it's just the most perfect relationship that I've ever been in. not to say that, you know, every relationship you come. Sure. You know, you have your stuff. But like, it's so, it's just very fluid and honest.

And there's an ease to it, even when we're, you know, upset with each other. Like, there's still this, this ease and safety to it. And so, yeah, but like, yeah, I have to watch myself. in that needing to connect and that like taking revenge if somebody blocks that connection it feels like a betrayal. Yeah.

And so yeah, it's really sucks. It's like the biggest thing that I'm like, but I've gotten a lot better at it. Do you still go to therapy? Is that something you partake in? I have therapy right after we have this interview.

Well, that's probably because we're having this session. No, my therapist now really like put this into a context for me of agency and counteragency. So like living for other people, living to be that thing that you think they want you to be, and then when they don't react how you want them to

and don't give you that motherly love, that enmeshed love or even any type of, or the love that you want from them, then taking revenge on them for that, you know, emotionally. Just getting really upset with them. God, I got it. Okay. Getting overly, irrationally upset.

upset. Which can, if some people pout, it can look like different things. Exactly. I mean, like, just saying there's many ways to get revenge on people. No, but like being this thing of like disrespect. Yeah. They disrespect me. They don't disrespect me. They're just going about, they're trying to do the best they can in their lives. And they don't have time to have a huge conversation about my problems. Well, I wonder if you could talk a little bit about that because sometimes in our attempt to care so much about other people, we actually, at least I'm speaking for myself, I've often learned that it's really a self-centeredness.

It's how does that person meet or not meet my direct needs? I couch it in, what can I do for you? How can I make you happy, right? Let me do all the things so everything will be okay. But it's actually really like, do it my way. Love me the way I want. Right? What's that that quote?

Like just because someone doesn't love you the way you want doesn't mean they don't love you with all that they have. Right. Right. Should have that tattooed on my forehead. Yeah. No, that's totally true. That's what the tushy's for.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, and knocked your headphones off. Woo! Tushy always. The word tushy always knocks my headphones up. Yeah, no. Yeah, I wonder if you can speak to that too.

Because also as actors, again, like, our whole world is about, like, it's me. It is. It's about me. It's about enough about me. What do you think of me? Absolutely. I mean, any art, you know, you're engaging in that. Right.

Because you're saying, yeah, you should, everybody should watch me or listen to me or read me, you know, make me. And I think, yeah, you even see that in activism, too, you know, in the world of activism, which is a very interesting world. And so, yeah, it's like you're, you know, it's almost like I wake up, like, needing that. And when I don't get that, I feel lost. I feel betrayed. Rather than, oh, what can I do? I often, like, you know, and I often can, like, I think, sort of have this identity amongst people. I'm either this, like, swagged out father figure that, that,

want to emulate, or I'm a creature of anxiety and sort of like the dangerous, problematic gesture. That's how I see it. I'm not saying that that's how other people see it, but like how it like forms in my mind. What are my choices? What was the first one? You said... Like a parental, you know, figure that people want to emulate or...

or that, like, creature that is like, oh, like, yeah, like, very, too complicated to engage with. It's also very Frankenstein. Like, it's very, like, am I the doctor or am I the monster? Jackal and Hyde, absolutely, absolutely. Like, yeah, it's weird. Like, my fiancé and I often people, like, refer to us as mom and dad. Hmm. Even people who are like, I mean, she's younger than me.

Right. You know, she's, like, a lot younger than, she's younger than a lot of people who call her mom. And it's just very, I, yeah, I think it's like we're very good at comforting people. And then we're both very good at also making people feel really uncomfortable. That sounds like the perfect formula for, have you ever wanted to be a parent? Yeah, absolutely. No, I very much want to be. I mean, because that really is, like, that's the, that is the dynamic, right?

Yeah. Yeah. And so I want to. Do you think about in mesh? Like, do you think about that? because it's very easy, right? Yeah. To try and connect with, I mean, everyone, but in particular, your own spawn.

Oh, I mean, our dogs are like, I'm enmeshed with my dogs, you know? They're like, my, you know, our eldest dog is 14 going on 8. She is like very, you know, and this is like the diets and the constant talking and engaging with them, you know, and they're like going out and being like, oh, that sucked. and you come home to these two, and they're like, I'm like, why'd I ever leave you guys? I just need you too. Right.

And they're like, they're that, too. They're both this comforting entity and then also so honest that they can make you feel, they can make people feel very uncomfortable at times too. So they're like, and so, no, but I'm like, I really want kids. I think we'll be great parents. And I think that it's, great, I think it's great for the world, you know, to bring in the new generations that will help keep it from destroying itself. Yeah, I want to talk a little bit about destruction. So,

you know, one of the interesting things that happened, you know, in your career is, you know, you have this platform with which you've, you know, chosen to discuss. you know, the events of the 7th of October in particular. And, you know, recently clarified your humanity, which I'm surprised that you had to clarify it, but you specifically clarified that your heart breaks for suffering in the world, no matter who is receiving that suffering.

However, you have this book, has brought about conversations about the legitimacy of, you know, for many of us, kind of the existence of Jewish people in the public space. I can't imagine the stress, you know, that this puts on you in terms of like trying to put out a book in the middle of, you know, life happening. Yeah, I wonder, yeah, I wonder what you'd like to sort of talk about regarding that. And in particular with a nod to complexity of the human experience that we've been talking about. Yeah. Well, it's been, it's wild, you know.

It's, it's, you know, speaking narcissistically, it's crazy the timing, you know, in my own life and career that this happened. I will say that it's been incredibly self-actualizing on the positive side. It's really made me It's actually this whole thing of agency and counter agency That we're talking about It really has put that

Very much more in perspective And put that way more In control I've become much more in control of that Because so many people Really don't like me right now And are very vocal about it And a lot of people

You know, as every Jew says has lost, especially, you know, people who lean on the liberal, you know, more progressive side, as I assume you and I do, have lost friends over this, or at least colleagues, you know, feel alienated in our own industry, feel alienated on our own political side, and have, you know, I've come to make major realizations of even how I was discriminating or maybe erasing myself. in my life, which I was already really noticing in the last few years. My fiancé very much helped me see that because this sense of herself as a Jew is very clear to her. She is Israeli, you know, and they just have more of a, even if they grew up here, which she did,

they have a clearer view of their identity, I think, than we do in the diaspora, I think. Well, living surrounded by countries that call for your destruction will do that. Exactly. And then, you know, assimilating into a culture and helping build that assimilation as we did will do that to us, you know. And it's more complex than that. I don't mean to make that. So, like, I'm not saying that there isn't an amazing, you know, there's so many amazing examples of Jewish identity and Jewish culture in the, this country. But yeah, I saw like the book is not about Israel. No. But it's very much about being a

Jew. I think there is this thing that's, you know, it's, I think a, I'm proud of it in that it calls out that it calls attention to my and our marginalization. Yeah. What is it, what does it mean when a bookstore in a major city says that they cannot guarantee your or their patron safety because you are speaking there. What does that mean? It's incredibly traumatic and it makes you, we're met with a lot of questions. And I think that that's maybe not what in our trauma of this, you know, which has been at times for me very hysterical and I know for everybody. I don't think we've been I think as Jews

afraid to embrace these it's like the biggest fear is the wondering of the question well why did why did they pull out how much of a security risk was it actually what is going to happen on that day I've seen what's happened to you I've followed that closely I've seen what's happened

to so many of our peers on so many different levels And so why does the bookstore pull out? Do they pull? Is it really a security concern or is it an image concern? Is it, and regardless, it's a disappointment. It's a deep traumatic disappointment because I would have provided security. Sure.

I would not expect an independent bookstore to make sure that place was secure. I would do that. Yeah, I think part of what we're seeing, and, you know, I do think of this in terms of mental wellness because I think about what kind of discourse we have as a people, meaning humans. Yeah. And, you know, I come from, you know, from parents who would place their bodies places in nonviolent protest and be removed or tear gassed. Yeah.

Like, I understand what protest is, you know? Absolutely. And also there's this sort of notion of the shouting down. culture. And I think that that's sort of what I try and understand with these kind of situations, meaning what what is the, what has our collective culture become when there is not room because a tactic is to shout down and cancel someone, right? And of course, it's specifically painful when it is when there is

historical trauma, which there is for the Jewish people. Yeah. Which is not to say there's not trauma for other people. But if we're talking about that, that, you know, also is just alarming to me that you know, I was reading there was

an attempt to collect a variety of voices about campus free speech. And most of the left did not show up. And, you know, the irony is so painful. You know, it's not a conversation if we can't have a conversation. I mean, that's what I thought we were about.

And that's what we used to be about. Right. And at some point, identity politics got co-opted by almost a right-wing method of you agree or you're out. Right. There's no shades to it. This is, I mean, for... That is a very, what we used to think of as a right-wing policy. Yeah, I think, I mean, seeing the left, which, you know, I, until recently...

I was very progressive, my mind. Yes. I believe, and I don't, you know, I believe wholeheartedly with all of my being, this is not an opinion even. This is a reality. And the non-binary reality of gender, and sexuality. That is something that is whole, you know,

is we have the last few years been taught. And if you have not been willing to learn that, you're a bigot. And so, but like, it's just such a deep hypocrisy

that in this moment, the left chooses to see race and cultural experience and political beliefs as completely, rigidly, binary. There's no breaking out of that. And, you know, they've all, you know, whoever ran this propaganda,

whether it was Russia or the Islamic Republic, you know, I don't know who filtered this into our university, and social justice groups and social media, but whoever did that, did it very, you know, did the brilliant thing that, you know, the Nazis did, which was,

which was, okay, what do people hate the, what does this group of people who has the most, you know, because we don't need to worry about the right. They got this. They got this. White replacement theory,

Jews are running that. Boom. Jews built the space later. that created COVID, whatever, whatever, like, crazy shit. But, like, whoever's running this specific propaganda was brilliant enough to look at that and say, they got this. And also, that's insane and is never going to, it's going to remain fringe. How do we mainstream anti-Semitism?

And what, so what is the most hated right now, the white oppressor? And let's bring back the, yeah, by bringing in, like, very un-a-smitism. original cliche Jewish tropes that have been present since there have been Jews. So yeah. And then it's just so just so it's like so dramatically disappointing how they all, how everybody bought into that. And I even bought into that for a certain amount of time to some degree. I was never like an anti-Zionist or thought Israel should end.

But I definitely thought like I benefited from. My existence was white privilege. And that's not true. That's not true. I'm not saying that, you know, my experience is the same as a person of color, you know. But white privilege gives a, the definition of that is that you don't experience oppression. You don't experience systemic discrimination. and that's obviously not true about our people.

And also you ask a white supremacist if we are white and they will say no. Not that we go by them for all the definitions we need, but it's helpful. It's helpful to put it into context. As my parents used to say when someone was like, I'm not Jewish. My grandmother was. They'd be like, good enough for Hitler, right? Like that's... Yeah.

And if you wear your Jewish identity, identity, you know, up front, you know, whether it's, and that's culturally, not, you don't need to just be religious in order to do that. You just culturally live that. Then you are putting it out there. Then it is seen, you know, and then you are a target. Yeah. Especially right now. You know, I know people who are wearing jewelry that we wear and you and I are also public people. What's going to happen when we step into that party or we step into that coffee shop now. So don't tell us that you're disproving your theories by how you're treating us. I think what's also important, you know, to mention is that we can talk about more than one thing at a time.

And the notion that what is occurring in the Middle East has a direct impact on the way Jews should be treated around the world who have not. nothing to do with the conflict is just conceptually problematic. Yeah. You know, that kind of grouping of responsibility, it actually doesn't benefit anyone because it conflates things that shouldn't be conflated and makes conspicuous Jews have to put our backs up. Yeah. Because everything is being grouped together.

Whereas, you know, being able to say, you don't have to agree with the policies of the Israeli government, but that also doesn't mean that you deserve to not exist as a Jew or compete in sports events or exist as a professor or write a book. And you have to look at that. I mean, I would be, I definitely think that the Israeli government bears a lot of, you know, they deserve a lot of criticism, the current government. Right. But no government in the world when you criticize them is the solution that country shouldn't exist anymore. Exactly.

And I'm sorry, that's kind of when you show your cards. Yeah. That's never the solution. And that you don't call out the terrorist regime that did what it did on October 7th and continues to do what it does. Correct. And thank God the UN after five months of examination was able to conclude what they did. Yeah.

But to me, if you're not also blaming Hamas and you're not examining. you know, what all of that is, you know, what all of that is in an honest way, then, and you're only going at Israel and Israelis and the Jews. I mean, every Israeli I know hates Netanyahu. So, and was protesting Netanyahu. So, but they still want to be safe. I can't unequivocally say that everything going on, you know, in the war is okay. I mean, it's definitely not okay on an existence level, on an existential level.

The fact that innocent people are dying is completely, you know, there are no words for the horror of that. But like, we also just don't know what's going on. And that is like something that like this culture really, and I think the left really, they somehow developed into this culture of like, no, we know everything. Well, yeah, and I think that's also, you know, when I think about peace, and I actually want to kind of, you know, end on this notion of where's your optimism in this? Because, you know, I am a peace lover. Me too.

I am a person who seeks out, you know, seeks out peace and justice, which does not mean that I always believe there is peace and justice. It means that that is something that we fight for and that we work for. But I do, I do wonder how, how you. you find an ability to be optimistic, you know, because for me, the notion of, you know, I always associated the left, right, with peace activism. And when the calls are for a global attack on Jews, I find that hard to reconcile with a peaceful message. That's not a peaceful message. And, you know, I am, I am praying for an end to these labor pains. I am praying for the birth of society.

something that provides dignity for the Palestinian people, for the Israeli people, and for Jews worldwide, right? So what, for you, where does optimism or how does optimism work into this, especially as you are, you know, tackling this really exciting thing in your life, which is the release of your book? Yeah. Well, I think we have to fight for our identity as Jews, but also our identity is liberals and what the true liberal identity is which is not this fascistic thing that has been developed that is you know goes way outside this war even um and that is that is just about punishing without conversation you know and you know just going off of a hashtag to completely dismantle somebody's perspective or or erase somebody's

perspective and their existence and their livelihood. I think this like complete unwillingness to have a conversation is a conservative value. Or I mean, conversation actually has become this conservative value, which is crazy. Whereas, you know, liberal, like we associate the left with you have to be careful about what you say. you know and I think that that can go too far too do I not understand right do I not understand well or like am I not understanding something really fundamental but you know I think that for me my optimism comes in when I am reminded that what happens on our campuses actually is not going to impact what's going on for the justice and salvation of the Palestinian people no it's doing is it's creating more divisiveness

more obstruction in our communities. And I mean that on both sides, meaning this kind of dialogue. So, you know, there are communities that are like, let's put actual Palestinians and Israelis together so that we can show you what it looks like when intellectuals have an intellectual conversation about practicalities of this solution.

Yeah. What do we do next? How do we account for 1948? How do we talk about 1967? How do we talk about October 7th, right? Right. But this notion of, you know, I was recently in Manhattan, I was afraid to turn every corner because I didn't know if I would be

identified in the middle of a protest. And that's a weird feeling. It's my city. Yeah, no. And you're seeing torn up, you know, when the last time I was there, torn up posters of children, missing children. What does this have to do? What is this whole thing of like, why when the Jews pain is brought up, does it become oppression Olympics all of a sudden?

And why do you need to erase Jewish pain and Jewish suffering? There's room for everybody's suffering. In order to advocate for everybody else's suffering. There's room for everybody's suffering. It's like when, you know, when people bring up the genocide in the Congo that happened from that Belgium asshole. I'm like, yeah, we should know more about that. We should know about what happened. We should know about what happened to the Palestinian people in Syria.

Yes. We should know about what's happening to the Uyghurs in China. We should know what's happening to. homosexuals in Rwanda. Like, we should know about these things, and we should be calling it out. And, like, and this notion, so it's like, this is my optimism that we need to stay strong and let this hysteria hopefully die down so that we can get into a conversation. And I, like, believe that I just believe good will prevail, because I believe that if you're

operating from such a hypocritical standpoint and such a standpoint of double standard, you can't persist on that. No culture has been able to ever persist on that. It brings it down. And if it has to take a hit in order to be brought back up again, that's what's, I mean, that's what's happening. Well, and I think also, you know, and I really appreciate your, you know, you coming and talking with us about your whole career, like everything, all the parts of Brett Gelman.

But I think what's important to remember is, you know, you're not going anywhere. We're not going anywhere. Jews are not going anywhere. Palestinians are not going anywhere and neither Israelis. We're all here. We're all here having this human experience together. And I really, you know, it's funny that the title of your book is the terrifying realm of the possible. Because there's so much that seems impossible, you know?

Yeah. And I mean, I don't mean to like link it so directly. but I really did. I got a lot out of this book in terms of... I really deeply appreciate that. You know, it's a real, it's an opening of consciousness. It's an opening of creative consciousness to say, you know, how far can we go in our own minds, right? Yeah. And in our own kind of psychological experience.

And, you know, in the case of your book, like, it goes from the hardest parts of being a human to the hardest parts of dying, you know? Yeah. I mean, it really, like, it runs the full gamut. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's what we need to like take into account more as human beings all across the board.

And really, I so appreciate you always having a conversation. Like everything that you do elicits conversation and invites conversation. We want to wish you well in your nuptials, in your life, with your furry children and any future children you might. have. It's really been a pleasure to get to talk to you. The book is the terrifying realm of the possible nearly true stories and I hope after listening

to Brett talk with us on this podcast you can start deciphering which which might be true and which might be fiction. Thank you so much. It's my and Bialics breakdown. She's going to break it down for you. She's got a neuroscience Ph. Ph.D. or

two. One fiction. And now she's going to break down. It's a break She's gonna break it down