Mayim Bialik's Breakdown - Jennette McCurdy: Enmeshment, Individuating, & Coping Mechanisms

Episode Date: July 6, 2021

Jennette McCurdy, writer, director, actor, and singer ( iCarly, Sam & Cat), inspires Mayim with her openness and vulnerability as she shares the harmful coping mechanisms and profound revelations she experienced following the death of her mother - leading to Jennette’s one woman show "I’m Glad My Mom Died." Jennette discusses the pressures and anxieties she faced at an early age as a hugely popular children’s TV star and the source of financial support for her family. Jennette unpacks how her identity was tied to her mother’s perceptions of her and how the enmeshed relationship impacted her. Mayim breaks down the psychological concept of enmeshment, including the effects of removing an enmeshed relationship from one’s life, the reasons we tolerate emotional discomfort for so long, and the elements of the power struggles surrounding love. Mayim and Jennette deeply connect over their self-discovery journeys, including their respective paths to recovery from disordered eating. They also discuss their personal and professional plans for the future, and Mayim confesses her feelings about her upcoming feature directorial debut. In a new installment of Ask Mayim Anything, Mayim explains the origins of self-sabotage and insecurities in an otherwise healthy relationship. Jennette McCurdy's website: https://www.jennettemccurdy.com/ BialikBreakdown.com YouTube.com/mayimbialik Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I definitely had a long history with eating disorders, but my mom passed away when I was 21. That same week was the first time that I had sex, the first time that I made myself throw up, bulimia, which I had for then years, and the first time that I had a drink of alcohol. So I think there's no denying that it was, you know, mom death and those coping mechanisms all kind of hit at once. Hi, I'm Iambiolic, and welcome to my breakdown. This is the place where we break down the things that make us break down. It's my ambiolic's break. down she's going to break it down for you because you know she knows a thing or two and now she's

going to be breaking down enmeshment grief and moms with janet mccurdy and when i first heard her name i didn't connect her with who i know her to be i'm going to get more into who she is in a minute but you may know her because she was in Nickelodeon's I Carly and also a spinoff of that, Sam and Cat. She's a writer, she's a director. She's, well, this is, this might be one of my favorite episodes. I'm just going to say it. But I'd like to first introduce us all

to my favorite episode, Jonathan Cohen, who was literally just texting on his phone while I was introducing him, because that's how we roll over here. Hello, Ma'am. I was making a note on a sticky pad that I'm about to share with you. but it's good to be misperceived.

We're dressed a little bit like opposites today, which I think is fitting for our introduction that just happened. I will have to take off my outer layer later in this episode because it gets hot in here. It does. And just to continue a little bit of a trend that's been happening, I'm going to redo my intro because I feel like they're not getting quite as much work as they used to get.

Another thing you could have said is, let's welcome Jonathan. I'm empty inside without him as a nod to her podcast title. And I would have said, I'm empty inside to Miami, primarily because I didn't eat lunch. Jonathan, what do you want to tell the folks at home before we talk to Jeanette McCurdy? Well, I was also going to say that we're breaking down cultural expectations versus what we truly want and what our authentic experience would be to make us happy. That's not as easy to encapsulate. But yes, we talk about what's expected of us versus what we decide that we want for ourselves.

Yes. Before we get too much further, why don't we do a word of the day, which is exciting because today it is only a word, not a phrase. Word of the day. Enmeshment. Enmeshment is a term. It's not a good thing. That's true. It is not a good thing.

It was actually originally described by Salvador Mnuchin, who this is interesting. I didn't realize. He only died a couple years ago, but he was born in 1921. So he was an old person. He used this word to describe a relationship, typically in a family, where personal boundaries are permeable and unclear. First, you might think it's important to have permeable boundaries because you might think, like, oh, well, it's important for people to have access and for your family to get to know you

and for you to be there for each other. But that's not what enmeshment is. Inmeshment is really the like, I don't know where I end and you begin. That's really in meshment. And when it's in a romantic relationship, we tend to think more in terms of like codependency, which is not the same thing. But enmeshment is usually a term that is used to describe a dysfunctional family system. It often happens when people feel each other's emotions, which again, you might be like, well, you're empathetic. You want to feel someone else's emotions. But the difference is, is that if someone's having an emotion in a family system where there's enmeshment, the entire system then revolves around that person's emotions and everyone gets sucked in. So Jonathan's right. You really do have to kind of

think of this in the negative sense. Inmeshment is when, for example, a mother is not able to separate her emotional experience from that of her daughter, even though they might say, like, oh, we have boundaries. And measurement between a parent and a child will often result in over involvement in each other's lives, which makes it hard for the child to become developmentally independent and responsible for her choices. And this is going to come up a lot in today's episode. So the notion that I actually, it's kind of interesting to think of this in terms of of like a lot of moms like, I'm best friends with my daughter. And many of us kind of old-fashioned folks are like,

you shouldn't be best friends with your child, you should be their parent. And not just because we're lame and want to be that person, but exactly for this reason, that that kind of best friendness that often happens, especially between moms and daughters, can lead to a set of expectations and a set of disappointments and can really induce, especially in a young child, a notion of a need either for secrecy or lack of privacy.

I hope that that's sort of like a good framework for enmeshment. It's not a term to be used lightly. It's not just like, oh, I don't like my mom. She's so enmeshed with me. It is really something that is more of a clinical term. It's completely fine also to feel connected to your parents, to feel a sense of obligation, you know, especially if you come from, like I do, a traditional family

of a particular cultural or religious set of expectations about what children are expected. Believe me, there's a lot of built-in stuff there that can very easily slide into enmeshment land and often does. So, yeah, we'll be talking about that. Is it time to introduce our very exciting guest? It's time.

I'm going to read Jeanette McCurdy's bio off her website, which also I highly recommend. She spells her name, J-E-N-N-E-T-E, and then McCurdy, M-C-C-U-R-D-Y, Jeanette McCurdy.com, and her bio says, Jeanette McCurdy got her start in child acting, which by her late teen years had brought her success.

She started Nickelodeon's hit show I Carly and her own spinoff of that show, Sam and Cat. She went on to star in the Netflix series between and had a short-lived country music career with Capitol Records Nashville. Despite her outside success, McCurdy felt ashamed of 90% of her resume and ultimately unfulfilled.

So she turned to alcohol, but since that didn't work, She quit acting and began pursuing writing and directing in 2017. She's written and directed a pilot and four short films. Her work has been featured in and on the Hollywood Reporter, short of the week, Florida Film Festival, Salute Your Shorts, and many more. She's written articles for Huffington Post and the Wall Street Journal. Those are two very reputable places.

That's not what her bio says. That's what I said. Hence the weird voice that I used. Her one woman show called, wait for it, I'm glad my mom died, had a sold-out run at the Lyric Hyperion Theater, which is a very, very fine theater here in Silver Lake. She hosts a podcast called Empty Inside, which Jonathan and I are thrilled to also get to be on,

and she speaks with guests about uncomfortable topics. She's incredibly articulate, she's incredibly intelligent, and she's lived a life that's really beyond so many people's wildest imaginations in positive and spectacular ways and also in really difficult ways. It's really a pleasure to welcome Jeanette McCurdy. Hello, Jeanette. Break it down. I do just want to thank you for having me on.

I've been a fan of yours for a long time and getting this through from my manager. I made a very strange sound of excitement when I saw this, which I never make when I usually I'm like, I don't want to do that. I was like, it was a weird, like a squeam type of sound. I have been not only a fan of yours, but I'm so intrigued by your story and your past.

so I hope to be able to kind of ask you some of that too throughout and get in there. And it's very inspiring, you know, for me to get to talk to you. You've been very open about a lot of things that I am choosing to be more open about. So I also find, you know, inspiration in what you've been forthcoming about. And I'm very intimidated by you because I feel like you, you know, you do well a lot of things that, you know, that I'm still kind of learning, you know, to do well or to try and do well. And one of those is really being honest and vulnerable and open. Maybe you can tell us a little bit, you know, for people at home, sort of what your trajectory was like, where you're from, and what your folks were like or what your family structure

was like and sort of how you became an actor, you know, at such a young age. Yeah, I guess my kind of history, when I was six, my mom put me in acting. I think to kind of, you know, she wanted, she had good intentions, I think, at the core of it. She wanted me to have a better life than she had. She didn't have a very good one. It was a constant struggle financially, emotionally, mentally. And I think she thought that acting was an easy, you know, kind of early way out to kind of ensure that I had success in a better path than she had. And I see it as something different, but that was kind of how I initially started acting. And within a couple years, was fairly successful.

And by kind of like 11 was the main financial support for my family. And, you know, there was a lot of pressure that came with that. And I think with that pressure came kind of my resentments toward that career and frustrations with it, as well as kind of resentments that were brewing toward my mom that I didn't identify as resentments at the time because of how much I absolutely adored her and found like my entire, entire identity in her idea of me. We call that enmeshment, for those of you listening at home. Oh, yeah. Classic enmeshement schema. And I also grew up Mormon, which I think also played definitely a factor in kind of a lot of the issues.

The person that I made children with comes from a Mormon family. And my mother-in-law also converted from Mormonism to Judaism, as did my now ex-husband. So, yeah, I've done like the deep Mormon dive over here. I've been to Mormon funerals. I've been to, well, you can't really go to proper temple weddings, but I have been to ceremonies and I've visited one of the temples before it was dedicated. So yeah, I've done like the deep Mormon dive into our connection as well. We've got all the things. Wow. That's wild. That's a rare one. That's a rare connector. It's a pretty rare connector. So tell us, were your folks in the industry

at all or no? No, nobody was anything in the industry. My mom actually had a friend of hers who put her daughter in background work, which was like the way in. And my mom just, I kept hearing my mom be like, Academy Kids, Academy Kids, which was the name of the background agency. So that friend Cindy gave my mom the name of the background agency who I then like auditioned for to be, I was auditioning to be principal, but I didn't realize at the time. So like getting into background was technically a rejection that you're not getting into principle. So it was like, it was the weirdest kind of version of rejection that I have that I have then become very familiar with, which is like the soft letdown of like, well, you're kind of, you're semi-rejected, but semi-let, like,

you're letting a background work with the hope that someday you might be good enough kid for like the real deal. But for now, you're just limited to non-speaking because you have, you don't, you don't worthy of speaking. No one should hear you speak, but you're great. Keep going. Exactly. We'll keep plugging along. Maybe get some bangs and we'll see what we can do. That's what I tell myself. That's what you tell yourself every day. That's what it is just Jonathan's little. I get on this podcast and if I do background long enough, I'll be able to speak. Keep at it, kid. Keep at it. So give us kind of like the ages sort of that then your life kind of took this very, very different turn and you became a public person. How quickly did that happen? Yeah. I started doing principal work at like, I guess, six and a half. And then by nine, like the career was really heating up to the point that, you know, mom was getting some ideas of like maybe we don't need so much God when we got these domino's residuals.

was born in. So kind of by, I would say by 12, we had kind of lost touch with our faith. Before then, it had been very much a part of our lives and we went to church every Sunday and everything. By 12, what I would say it was directly related to my career baking up was when the Mormonism kind of took a backseat. And then by 13, I was cast in the show that kind of became the thing that made me born in the public eye and all that. And that lasted until I was 20, I think 21. Wait, hold on one second. Now, I'm pretty good at math. How many years of your life? So it went from 13 until I was 20, close to 21. Wow. I mean, that's a very different experience, you know, for example, then I had, right? You know, so I'm just like, of course, it's all about me.

No, I'm not trying to make it about me, but I'm trying to think about, like, you not only grew up on the television, you went through, you know, transitioning from a, from a girl to a woman, and then you transitioned through your formative years as a teenager and then beyond. Right. What were your kind of the pocket years? So I started acting very late in life. I was in middle school.

I was almost 12. And people were like, but you were still so young. But when I think about your experience versus mine, like, I had 11 years just living with my crazy family instead of also being in the industry. while living with my crazy family. Yeah, and I was in school plays and I was like, I should do this because I'm comfortable on stage,

which of course there's still a huge amount of architecture that goes into getting a child into the industry, which, believe me, is not lost on me. I was cast in beaches a year after I started acting. Wow. Yeah, I was really crazy. That came out, you know, then the next year. So beaches came out when I turned 13

and then Blossom was 14 to 19. I was two years out of high school, which felt like an eternity. to wait, to get to, like, leave and, like, have this not be every day of my life, like, on a set, you know, smiling, which is fine. And I had a very, I actually had a very positive experience, meaning I worked on a clean set. I never saw drugs. I never saw alcohol. Like, people were kind, you know, but the, you know, I'm sure you can imagine, like, the person inside of me was like, this is not, like, where's the rest of my life? Like, I'm a person also.

not just your object. You know, I would go in for these auditions, like this like fast-talking New York kid who like, you know, kind of like shifted in her weight because I was just so, such an anxious kid. And that was like constant note. She speaks too fast, too fast, too fast. And also one thing that I did not have on my side

was I couldn't do commercials because I didn't look like anyone on television. And no one was going to be like, oh, that child with the chin and the nose, let's put her in a Domino's commercial. Like it wasn't happening. It was like, what is happening with this face? So, yeah, I did, like, character roles.

I was, like, on eight episodes of Webster. And I, like, did my guy. I did, like, all these, like, weird, you know, fun character roles. Did you get MacGyver? I said, I did three episodes of McGiver, just saying. I loved McGiver. The reruns on TV land, come on. It's the best.

Well, you'll find my three episodes, which I filmed in Vancouver. Did you get saved from an explosion? I did get saved from an explosion. I thought you saw my episodes. I got saved from several explosions and from a truck hanging off the side of a mountain. by McGiver. Just like your real life. Just like my real life.

Anyway, let's get back to Jeanette. So, sorry, that math blew my mind that you had a huge portion of your life. So here's a dumb question. I'm going to ask you a lot of dumb questions because I want you to have the opportunity to speak to them, my dumb questions. That's a long time to be in the industry. For how long did you want out? I think that initially, once the show started getting, like it got kind of just to a crazy status that I don't think it was possible to imagine it would get.

I think for the first year, having people come up to me and recognize me felt it was a form of validation. I think it felt really nice. And it felt like, you know, I had always been the homeschooled kind of weird Mormon kid on the outskirts. You never quite fit in who was always like more naive than everyone around me. So to have that form of validation felt really. good. And then it very quickly shifted. And I think a big part of that was how much more my mom responded to it positively, even as she saw what it was doing to me emotionally and how difficult it was for me to handle and how, I mean, I didn't want to go outside. I was sort of paranoid of it

because it just constantly led to this hypervigilant. I was already anxiously kind of wired. And then I just became constantly hypervigilant. I've walked out of the house and I'd be like looking around and like, oh, is there a paparazzi here? Is there somebody here who's going to recognize me? And what are they going to say? And what are they going to want? And what are they? It was really hellish, like, to be honest and not at all fun. And I resented it. I would say within probably a year and a half was like definitely when I had started resenting it. And then of course, my mom was all the more kind of into it and like take the pictures, do the thing, do whatever. Like, why don't you love this? Why aren't you grateful? You're so ungrateful. Why would you not? This is what everybody's dream. It's like,

this was your dream, not mine. So here's my second stupid question, or maybe I've already asked more than one. And I'm asking this, first of all, I already am super into you. Like, I think you're awesome. And I think I'm really enjoying talking to you. And I just feel like a nice connection with you because we've been through a lot. Like, we were in the same war. I don't hear you.

But I know that it's important also for you to answer. This is kind of like also asking someone like, why did you stay in that abusive relationship? but I'm asking not because I don't understand, but I want you to speak to, if you're comfortable, why you didn't get out, meaning, you know, obviously you're not going to get out, you know, at 10, at 12, even at 15, even at 18, right? But I guess that would be a question. I mean, for me, I know that there's a point when you're so in that you can't get out. Was that your experience?

Was it something else? I mean, I appreciate you asking because I do think it's an important one to clarify. and speak to. When I say my identity was like what my mom thought of me, it was 100% that. So the idea of pulling away, getting away wasn't even, it wasn't even something that came into my mind, to be honest. It was just like I would be completely lost. I would be nothing without her. Also, I had been fed that messaging my entire life of, you know, you're completely incompetent. You're completely, you are not smart. You can't do anything without me. You need me. I'm the thing that keeps you from just completely being derailed and a loose canon and unable to handle yourself.

Like, I'm, you know, it was, it was all this, all that messaging for so long of my life that led me to think that I was kind of incompetent and helpless and didn't know right from wrong, didn't know good from bad, couldn't make decisions on my own without her. So that was, that was definitely what kept me from getting away sooner. And then I do think, so my mom had cancer for the first time when I was two. So I was always kind of aware of the fragility of her health. And I think that played a part of thinking, like I just had. had this weight on me all the time.

Well, she could, she could go at any time. She's constant. It was stage four metastatic breast cancer. Somehow miraculously she recovered. But knowing that, you know, she was in doctor's offices every three months to get these checkups and, you know, constantly, you know, she had a bone marrow transplant and constantly having these different surgeries and checkups and everything. It was just like the awareness of her death was always weighing on, on not just me,

but the entire family, you know. And then her cancer recurred when I was 18. and I actually think that would have been exactly the time that was like four years, five years into the show, that would have been exactly the time that I would have been like, fuck you, mom, I don't want anything to do with you, I'm leaving you, where I would have started really just,

I think, rebelling like full, like very intensely, but because of her cancer, then I felt kind of roped back in with that guilt and that obligation and just all those overwhelming feelings that come with the imminence of death. My M.Bialx breakdown is supported by Superpower. We all know the feeling

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Use the code break at checkout for $20 off your membership. And after you sign up, they'll ask how you heard about them. Make sure to mention my and biolics breakdown to help support the show. Your mother has passed, correct? Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's. So, yeah, with all due respect to your mother, I think it's important to talk about for exactly what you said. The complexity of why we stay, whether it's in a romantic,

relationship, in a friendship, in our family. Like, it's an incredibly complicated and elaborate system that is directly linked to our emotional capacity to tolerate the discomfort of what happens when you try and get out. And I think, and I think, well, and I think this kind of, you know, I think that this likely will resonate with a lot of our listeners because there's a lot of kind of symptoms, you know, of this and you'll you'll kind of see it and it'll come out in different ways. And for people who stay, I don't know what's easier or harder. In some ways, it's easier to stay and in some ways it's easier to leave. And there's not a right or wrong. And I also really am a strong advocate of, you know,

not making rash decisions and especially if there's addiction or if you have addiction as one of your coping mechanisms, not making rash decisions in that addiction, you know. But that does lead to my next question, though, which is, when do you decide to fill that God-shaped hole with a substance? And was that in place of food and kind of that managing and controlling? Like, do you want to talk about food stuff? You don't have to talk about food stuff. I always want to talk about food stuff. I'd love to hear more about your food stuff. I always find each person's kind of history with it. So there's definitely that connection, but every person's story is so specific. And it's always interesting to find, well,

what connected those dots for you and what led you to that path and all that. Yeah, I find, I find it very kind of fulfilling to talk about. But the week that my mom died was the first, so my mom introduced was a person who introduced me to anorexia, actually. I had a lump in my breast, which was my boob developing. And I was scared that it was cancer because of my mom's cancer. I thought, well, she got cancer. Now I've got cancer. I've got breast cancer at 11 like I'm doomed. And I told her and she said, you don't have breast cancer. You're just developing boobs. I said, well, how can I not develop boobs? I don't want those. And she said, well, there's a thing called calorie restriction. Those were exact words. She did not say the word anorexia.

I did not hear the word anorexia until a doctor, I overheard a doctor talking with my mom a year later when I had lost X amount of weight and was a rail thin. And it sounded like a dinosaur to me. I remember that distinctly of thinking like, hmm, somebody's talking about me like, I'm a dinosaur, but it was them, you know, her talking to my mom about my eating disorder, which my mom denied in order for her to be able to support it, all pieces of the puzzle that I've kind of put together later in life, didn't realize at the time, at the time just thought, mom's looking out for me. Mom wants me to not have breast so that I don't have breast cancer.

Mom wants me to look young so I can book more roles so I can support the family and do the thing. I definitely had a long history with eating disorders. But my mom passed away when I was 21. That same week was the first time that I had sex, the first time that I made myself throw up, bulimia, which I had for then years, a few years, and the first time that I had a drink of alcohol. So I think there's no denying that it was, you know, mom death and those coping mechanisms all kind of hit at once.

Okay, so hold on. Let's just slow it down for everyone at home. Were you raised in a non-drinking family for religious reasons? Yep. Nobody drank. Yeah. Right. Well, just a lot of people don't know about Mormons. Right, right. No, I appreciate it. And you mentioned that certain aspects of faith and observance did fall away. But did you grow up in a, like a no caffeine home? Did you grow up in a strict Mormon home that way? What a good question. We were what I call second-rate Mormons.

Got it. So there are the first-rate Mormons. Those were the Hoffmeyers and the Salazar's. They sat in literally the first pews. They had the five kids who all served the missions, they adhered to every single Mormon rule that ever has and ever will exist. We were the ones who were like pawing at first-rate status, but never made it. We were half an hour late to every service. We were like definitely slipping in the McDonald's and the Mickey D's. You know what I'm saying? So that was us. Okay, but you did grow up in a home that didn't drink. And so some people might be thinking, and look, the fact is I'm not happy that I know exactly what you're talking about.

Meaning like, this is not like, oh, this is so much fun. I guess it's like, it is hard earned how deeply I understand what happened to you that week. I think it's really, really valuable also for people to hear that, you know, the surface reading is like, She was finally free, you know? Yes. But what actually, and if you don't mind me, sort of like dipping into, you know, it sounds like you've done a tremendous amount of work on yourself, which is extremely admirable. But what happens is when you take away the kind of primary enmeshment attachment,

and you take away that the only thing that felt safe even when it was dangerous, the sense of a lack of control is really, really unbearable. And the release of that person, it is a hole that nothing can fill. And so we try and fill it. And that's not to say that having sex was that. But I mean, obviously there's a program for that as well, if that is the solution. But the notion is whatever I'm feeling, I would like to feel something else. I hope that everybody will go back and relisten to that and save that.

I will go back and listen to that. What you've just said, you just summed it up so eloquently. That's like exact. I think that's exactly exactly it. Well, thank you. And again, like I'm not happy that I summed it up like that. But I think also what people don't often understand about the complexity of eating disorders or disordered eating is first of all, for those of us who are feeling,

male in particular in the industry and young. We don't even think of it as disordered eating. It's just the way a lot of people eat, meaning I'm not saying that everyone who restricts their eating is anorexic. I'm not saying that. But what I'm saying is the general climate, even if you didn't have the concerns you had about breast cancer, you know, like, which is, of course, it's a child trying to make sense of a very scary world. But it is so pervasive, especially in Los Angeles and in New York and other cities that would like to claim this, it is so pervasive this notion that there's really not more than one body type, meaning there's the ideal body type, and then there's everyone else trying to have that ideal body type.

And there's the lumps of the rest of them. Exactly. And I like to point this out, when I was young, when I was a teenager, when I was in my 20s, like there were clothes that you wore if you had a certain body, and then there were the clothes that the other people wore. that felt good and looked good on them. And now it's kind of like everyone must fit into a skin tight dress. But there was a very short period of my existence when I could wear a skin tight dress literally without even thinking about it because that was my body type before I became a grown ass woman. But the notion that we live in a culture now and in particular in the city that, you know, that I live in and the city that essentially you grew up in, that that's a

normal thing in culture that like here's the body type and everything else is not okay. And when you go places like Europe and this is still true, it's not as true as it used to be. Like when I went to Europe in the 90s for the first time, I was like, oh my God, there's different shape people. What is happening? And I remember I would look at the billboards or the commercials on TV and I'd be like, oh my, they let people like that be in commercials. Because it's so, even when I would go to Canada, when I go to I'd be like, oh my God, people look normal. Like, why are their teeth like that on a billboard? You don't have to have teeth like that.

And it was just totally normal person teeth. So I think that the notion is not just that like everyone gets shoved into an eating disorder. It's that the consciousness around food and body type is dysmorphic in the first place. I mean, is that sort of, was that your experience? 100%. Yes. When did the eating disorder first hit for you? Okay.

So for me, I. I have a funny story because I'm terminally unique. There's no one like me. My problems are the worst. No one is worse than me. I did not acquire an eating disorder proper until I was 40. Wow. Now, this is an unusual story.

I was coming out of a relationship that I was in at the time. And my solution to feeling whatever I was feeling, which was usually lonely and neglected, which wasn't necessarily because I was being neglected or left alone. It was a feeling, not a fact. But for me, the solution became, I was a compulsive overeater and then a restrictor to kind of balance it all out. But as I go back and as I start to, you know, recover, uncover, discard, whichever order those go in, what I discovered is that I've had an anorexic brain really my whole life. and I will restrict food, yes.

I will restrict money. I'll restrict love. You know, I will withhold, restrict. You can't my language. Yeah. I mean, down to, and this is something that's really fun to share in the rooms because it's the kind of thing that you're like,

oh my gosh, please let someone nod their head. I will restrict with like even like body lotion or perfume. Okay, you get it. I literally ripped my wipes and a half, like my makeup remover wipes and halves. I'm like, well, this is 10. intense that point. Right. So for me, that's both kind of like that financial anorexia, which also comes from what I, I literally didn't even know it's a term financial trauma from like

making money when you didn't have it, but not knowing why you're making it and feeling guilt about it. And then like having the rest of your life be everyone being like, well, you're so rich. And it's like, but I'm going to tear this wipe in half, a million percent. Taring a wipe in half just makes sense. Remember when you throw out my dental floss? I didn't throw out your dental floss. I said if it's accidentally been all. pulled out. You don't need to wind it back up. I'll buy you a new one. That was my emergency travel dental floss and then I got into a situation where my dental floss ran out and I didn't have my backup. Because I threw it out. Anyway, so for me, the pattern of

disordered distribution of resources went back, probably, I mean, probably my whole life. And for me, like the beauty products thing is like, it's also, it's hilarious and disturbing that the more I love something, the less I'll use it. Yes. Oh my, it reminds me of, do you know, in Home Alone, too? Deep, deep cut here. In Home Loan 2, he's talking, McCulley Culkin is talking to the pigeon woman, and he gives a speech about how she's talking about, like, not sort of a, you know,

adjacent to what you're talking about here, I think, if I remember correctly from the last time I saw it approximately two weeks ago. McCauley Culkin then goes, he's like, oh, I once had these rollerblades. and I love him so much that I didn't use them. But you know what happened? I grew the rollerblades and then they didn't fit anymore. And I never got to use out of him. He says it was brilliant McCulley Colkin delivery.

I mean, I've had that happen literally with products that I loved so much. When I finally went to use them for that one special time, it had spoiled. Or the scent had gone away. And it's like, but here's the thing. Some people will have that happen once and they'll never do it again. I will do that over and over and over because that's my brain. I mean, like, that's, and that's when we talk about it being a disease. Like, that's my disease of perception.

And I've also, you know, had never identified body dysmorphia really until probably into my 20s. And that's a huge component of my disordered eating also is literally not, you know, like I say that it's not just, my eyes work fine. But what they see and how my brain perceives that, it's simply not true. And so I can't and don't trust it, which makes it very, very confusing to agree. exist. So that's kind of my story. And I've been in recovery for two years. And I will also say that it's kind of like the graduate school of recovery to dip into your eating and to dip into your body image. It's sexuality. You know, if anyone has sexual trauma, this is where it's likely going to come out. So, you know, while I have a lot of interest in the money program, as it were,

There is a program for people who have financial trauma or challenges with finances, even if they're not someone who's going bankrupt. There is a program. It's called Debtors Anonymous that actually deals with the financial side of it. But for me, the best way to get at it, you know, has been, you know, to have this kind of rigorous honesty surrounding food and eating. And it's one of those things, you know, with alcohol, with drugs, the rule is you put it down and you don't pick it up, no matter what. You don't take a drink, no matter what. You do it one day at a time. but I have to pick up food three times a day and twice for snacks. You know, we live in our disease.

So that's, you know, I'm accountable to someone else. That's my one of my solutions. You know, I pray to see myself the way my higher power sees me. And I literally have to do it one day at a time. So tell us, like, kind of did you start in recovery after you also began drinking? Like, what was your kind of path of recovery? It was, yeah, it was definitely a few years into post my mother's death. I had found out some things about her that threw me for a loop that completely derailed

what my image of her was and the pedestal that I had had her on, some things that were kind of like undeniably, that undeniably knocked her off that pedestal in my eyes. And that, I think, drove me more to my coping mechanism. I mean, definitely drove me more to my coping mechanisms. things kind of definitely got worse before they got better. And then it was my sister-in-law. Actually, I was in Canada working on a project. And we had had a Thanksgiving dinner at a restaurant.

And I had gone off to the bathroom to purge as per usual. It was at that point, I was doing it five to ten times a day. It was pretty much a constant, literally any time that I wasn't purging, I was thinking about my next time purging. That was how my mind was just oriented. I walked out of the bathroom and my sister-in-law was staying there. And she goes, this has to stop. Like, we have to find a way to get you help.

I can't stand by and watch somebody that I love hurt themselves like this. Like this is this is really not okay. And I think it was it took so much courage from like it makes emotional. It took so much courage from her to say that and to do that and I really appreciate it. I think that was really the turning point for me. And also knowing knowing that somebody else knew that I couldn't, I had not told my brothers. I had not pulled anybody else. It was like, oh, the secrets out.

Did you think no one knew? Yeah. And then I actually found out later on after kind of coming, you know, speaking publicly about it, I had gotten some emails from people that would be like, yeah, I found some like residue on my toilet seat just so you know, which then I was like, oh God. Then it was even honestly, it was more just like humiliation because I thought that I was like this gifted secret keeper. And I like wasn't good at that. That was like pretty much all I had during that time was hoping and clinging to the fact that maybe, you know, my shame was my own. But knowing that like,

you actually weren't pulling the wool over anybody's eyes. That was, uh, That was a bummer. The acronym for shame should have already mastered everything, right? That notion of like, you know. I never heard that. Yeah, should have already mastered everything. Well, and I think also, I mean, not to get too up in your business, but what struck me when you were talking about that is also this notion that like you were conditioned and raised to perform, you know, and to have this beautiful exterior, whatever beautiful, you know, looks like or feels like. And so the notion that you essentially continued acting, right?

You continued keeping that exterior at any cost, right? Yes, absolutely. I mean, I definitely see it as I think I was acting as much, if not more in my regular life to my mom, to the people around me as I was in front of the camera. It was just 100% across the board a facade, which is why ultimately I had to step away because I felt like it was just too damaging to my mental health to my greater good to be so there was just too much baggage with it. I just had to, I couldn't keep doing it.

So since we're best friends now, I'm going to ask you, I'm going to ask you this question because, and I don't know if you resonate with this. And I've spoken to a lot of, you know, people who grew up, you know, in the industry. But like, I've never, I've never met somebody who has so many like similar, you know, like little thing. So this is what I'm going to ask you. Sometimes I feel like, what if I don't actually know who I am? because it was like always told to me. Like, do you know what I mean?

Yes, and it horrifies me daily. So what is that? Like who, who, do you know who you are now? I like to think so. I, you know, I definitely still bump up on like questions of that at times. If I'm still like triggered by something and I have kind of an old pattern kick in, be like, well, maybe I should be doing blank, you know, whatever, fill in the blank. But I think a huge factor in helping me identify, I think,

what I actually want and the life that actually means something to me versus other people was a type of therapy called, which I know it's like kind of annoying to be like, oh, this this therapy. No, no. I feel self-conscious about it. Bring it on. It's a type of therapy called DBT, dialectical behavioral therapy. Oh, yeah.

Part of it is identifying your life worth living. And you have, you know, works literal tangible, like physical concrete worksheets, which is the key factor in why I like to DBT, why I preferred it over other types of therapies. I felt like talking was getting me nowhere. I don't want to talk in circles and not get anywhere. I want like a paper to tell me where I'm at. It really helps me to feel kind of more centered and grounded. And this type of therapy did that for me.

And a big part of it is identifying your life worth living. And with that comes locking down kind of your values and goals that actually mean something to you. And having those parts of life really kind of nailed down and pinned down in concrete ways was was hugely helpful to me. And of course it changes. It's not like, you know, just because I had a goal when I first, created my goals that I'm going to like keep that for my life or something like that. But

it really helped me a lot. There's something extremely relatable beyond people in the industry who have that experience of not knowing themselves. And when I first heard my mask like, you know, do you know yourself? My first question was like, well, let's unpack that. Like, what does it mean to know yourself? And then you went right into it, which is what are your goals and value system outside of what you're told they should be? And whether that's materialism, whether that's I should have this job or this car or even this family. I think everyone, to some degree, is questioning that from friends of mine who are female in their mid-30s who say, and everyone tells them they're supposed to be married and have kids already

to men who are like, what type of partnership do I want? And I think it's so applicable. And so I wanted to just, you know, give that shout out so that it's not only like people in the industry who are dealing with this, because I think it is so relatable to a lot of people who are all questioning and then trying to establish a guidepost to understand how to build like what feels true for them. And it's not just like reading mantras. And so, you know, whether it be DBT, but however we, whatever the process is to find out what are the core values and things that you can then build your decisions off of so that you ensure that you're

meeting that criteria to satisfy yourself. I love that. I think that I think it's so important. And I also think that a big thing that I loved about some of the worksheets that I was given through the DBT program that I did was it kept telling you to not do the value. Like if you think that you're doing this value to please your boyfriend, your mom, your brother, like don't do that. You really got to be honest with yourself. And I think that's the key part to value. Like charity might really mean something to some people. It's like not one of my foremost values. I know a lot of people get a lot of kind of fulfillment out of it.

but I would be lying to myself if I said that that was one that just like did it for me. And it's, you know, definitely one that you're kind of inclined to put on a sheet because it might sound nice. It might seem good. It might. How else are you going to give all your money away because you don't deserve it because you're a piece of shit if you don't give your money to charity? Oh, what? That's not. Oh, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. But that talks about like how you actually go and say what means something to me versus what I think I will look good if I put on that sheet. And that process, I think, is exceptionally complex for a lot of people.

Yes. What they, like, if humans are horrible at actually doing what they want intrinsically versus what appears great outside. And I think most people, I don't want to overgeneralize, but I see a lot of people trapped in that vicious cycle and not really being, even when they do the work, they don't quite know how to separate what really feels true for them versus what they've either been told or what the appearance will be acceptable. How do you figure that out?

How do you figure that out? I think everyone is caught in some cycle of that. If I've really questioning, what is it that I want if I really stripped away all of the external validation and feedback? And we don't live in a society where you can strip out that external validation and feedback. Not to give a shout out to Ein Rand, but that's exactly what Ein Rand, you know, was kind of trying to tackle. And she wrote The Fountainhead and she wrote Atlas Shrugged, you know, which are two kind of novels articulating a philosophy of like, what if everyone just did exactly what worked for them with no regard to anyone else's opinion.

And it's called objectivism. But the fact is, it's a very cold philosophy. It does not leave room for the complexity of human interaction, love. And yes, in meshment, which, you know, sometimes happens. But also, I can't help being defensive over my new best friend, Jonathan, because while there is an absolute universality, like, I do think that there's also something to like having this conversation of like, what if you literally don't know how you want to wear your hair? While it's extremely complicated for both of you, I would say that take away the financial pressure, take away everything else. people who want to be a part of a family system, which is everyone, mostly. We want, you know, we're wired and you can talk about this more so about our primal wiring

to be connected to our early caregivers. We get that messaging of what is approval, act like this, and mom and dad will do more for us. And so this is like part of the fundamental crux of the human existence is that we're wired early on, whether it's on stage or whether it's part of the family system, to act in order to receive that positive feedback. And we are not taught how to connect with that intrinsic, inherent thing that we want. Everything's broken and we're all going to die. Thanks for listening. I just do that part so that you can tell us how to fix it. No, look, if I knew how to fix it, would we be here right now? No, I'd be living in Costa Rica. You know, I think there's a tremendous

amount about us that is wired, yes, to please. And there's a tremendous amount about us that is wired to please a caregiver. But especially when there's any element of power struggle surrounding love, you know, I mean, I think that's kind of like the simplest way to put it. Isn't there the quote, if you're mean to your child, they won't grow up to hate you. They'll grow up to hate themselves. If we had someone researching, they would find that for us and tell us where it came from. Anyway. I put a quote at the front of my planner each month. That might make it for me.

You can just attribute it to me. Jonathan said that. You have a really cool website also having jealousy about that. My friend designed it. So I'll tell him he'll really appreciate that. My friend, Brian. Okay. I need to talk to your friend, Brian.

It's not so much. So there's a difference between jealousy and envy, says the daughter of two English teachers. And to me, I'm more envious of it. Jealousy feels like I wish she didn't have it. She doesn't deserve it. Envy is like, I want that. It's beautiful. But one of the things, I mean, I've just been having a really good time just being on your website, but you have this stuff link and I'm super into it. And I'm super into it because it's a really great, look, it's a great little snapshot, you know, into you. And you said that this is, you kind of, you refresh it. There's one thing I don't agree with. And that's the undoing because I started to read the book. And my mother wanted me to read the book. My mother likes really, surprising, dramatic, like elaborate, psychological, blah, blah, blah. And I started reading it. I'm like, what is this? And then I started watching it. And I was like, it's that book I didn't finish. That's what it is. So that's the only one I was like, eh. But I want to talk about...

To be fair, I was a little on that one, too. I was like, well, I watched the whole thing, so I need to like kind of own, like, take accountability for the fact that I watched every episode of this, but also I judged myself for watching every episode. No, and also I want to say that on your stuff page, there's a lot that's just like fun and good. And I think that's something that I really appreciate about you. You're very, very intelligent. You're very cerebral. But you also have a real sense of, like, fun.

And like that's, you know, so like, it's a really good mix. And I'm very pleased with you. Okay. But you have a book on the, and I don't know when this will air, but you have a book that is on your stuff you've been enjoying. And it's called The Liars Club. And it is a memoir by Mary Carr. And it was given to me by one of my closest friends, my friend Nancy, who's a

writer. And what Nancy, Nancy gave this to me because I was working on my screenplay and not wanting to write a memoir. Remember mom? It's not a memoir. But what I said to Nancy after I read this book is this is the most tragic story that I've read, possibly in a memoir. And like, I've read a lot of memoirs. This is one of those books that is, it is so. terrifying and gripping the level of abuse and complexity. I'm not just saying like, oh, it's like if you like reading abuse stories, read this book. That's not what I'm saying. And it's not so much the graphicness. Because what's exquisite about this memoir, and for anyone who likes literature, this book is a must read because it is told from really the perspective of a

child, meaning it is written in a very choppy kind of disordered fashion. because that's how your experience is when you think back and try and, you know, but as things start being revealed, there comes this terrifying clarity and this really like almost emotionless outpouring of this realization, you know. And I know that sounds like the worst review for reading this book, but I want to know why you like this book and if it resonated with you the way it resonated with me.

Definitely. I think the first thing that stood out to me that I enjoyed most and kind of appreciated most was her detachment from her story. Like clearly she had had enough time away and done enough processing that she was able to find the valuable moments to share

and share them in a valuable way so that it wasn't just like, I think the worst thing is when it's just like a self-indulgent trauma-eeking like, little ears of my problems. Help me. Like that's, nobody needs that.

Nobody wants that. She, I think, told her story so beautifully and eloquently. And she edited it so well. And then I also think she had really good moments of humor.

She had these little, little quips every so often that would just, just when you needed it, just when you'd be like, this is so heavy. I'm going to put it down. I'm going to put it down.

She'd come through with a little zinger, a little quick little zinger that would, I would just be laughing out loud. And to be able to do that, to have that skill, to have the, have the reader so invested and so just engaged to the point that they feel like it's,

it's overwhelming for me emotionally. And then to just pull the rug up for one to you and make you laugh, I was, I was just completely taken with it. I think she's so brilliant. So good. My God. And you, I mean, that's a beautiful, that's a beautiful description. And you wrote a play, correct? Yeah, a one woman show. It's just like a cringy term. Maybe just in our in our in our final time with you tell us a little bit about sort of what that was like in terms of you know I'm coming off liars club for a reason you know this notion of like what part of our story do we tell how do we tell it is it for the viewer is it for the author you know what what and especially for you to also be a performer in that can you talk a little bit about really your decision to do that or you know your fear about doing that. That's a great question. It's definitely been a process. My relationship with my mom is something that I'll be working through for sure for a long time to come and like exploring, I think, in some form of art for a long time.

I think it'd kind of be impossible for me to, I have to feel a personal investment to things that I'm writing. I admire people who don't have to have that personal investment and can just kind of like latch on to characters or a story and go to town. But I have to, you know, I'm sure it comes from a place of selfishness. I just have to feel like, what am I exploring that's, you know, relevant to me and helping me work through something, or I feel like I can sense that sense, like that lack of personal investment. And I don't like that. I think it started for me with, I wrote a pilot script that our mutual friend, Any Surditch, was actually was in and was so wonderful in. And then I didn't do anything with that because it felt too personal. It felt too close to the chest. I felt like it was, there wasn't enough distance from it to tell it properly to where. it was worthy of other people's time. I felt like it was something that should just be for me and to know that I had done and to hopefully get to the next thing. Then I wrote a collection of essays, which my manager at the time had said, like, this is great. I don't really know what to do with books. So I'm not sure what to do with it. What do we do with a smart, pretty woman who

writes so many words? I was, I was completely disheartened. Honestly, I didn't. I was like, okay, so I guess I don't know, I don't know what to do then if I can't, if I can't write and I don't want to act and I don't know what to do. So definitely there was a big kind of pump to get over there. That's when you call your best in. You're like, bitch, we're going to Costa Rica. And I'm like, okay. To Japan. To Tokyo Disney. So yes. And so I left this manager because it was kind of another identity thing for me and feeling like it was more people wanting me to be something that I wasn't. And if she, if they're not going to connect with this, then I don't know what they're going to connect with. And this feels so fundamental to my, like all that kind of stuff,

all that existential stuff. I took some time off and then I wrote a one woman show that was more around themes of control that I then completely scrapped because that was that just felt like it was too far removed because I think I did the pendulum swing. We went from going way too personal, well, not way too personal, but too self-indulgent. Right on the nose. It was right on the nose, right? Exactly.

Exactly. And so then I swung the opposite way and it was too far removed and it felt like, well, that's not. that's not honest either and that's not totally what I'm trying to do. So then I redid the one woman's show which felt like, oh, I think this is something and I think this could be something. So then I started work dropping that. And that was, that was, I guess, I don't even know it now, a year and a half ago or so when

I first started doing it. Yeah, right before COVID and it shut down because of COVID. But it just kind of explores my relationship with my mom from childhood up until a few years after her passing, kind of the revelations that I had in post her passing that helped me to find my own identity and establish my own identity. And I think the tagline was something like, you know, how my mother dying turned out to be the greatest. What was it? How did you say it? The show is called I'm Glad My Mom died.

And it's like, oh, how my mom just went from being the worst thing that ever happened to the best. Yeah, I just, I really love that. You also have a podcast that I believe Jonathan and I get to be on together in case you'd like a little more of both of us. I'm so excited. I really want to talk more about everything. I've got so many mental notes. Should I say that I invited myself to that podcast? He invited himself.

It's okay. But tell us a bit also about just your podcast journey because, you know, there's not, I don't want to say there's not a lot of women in this space because there are women in this space. But in particular, you have a very, you have a specific angle and a specific kind of, you know, expertise that you're, you know, able to help people draw upon. So how did that come about? COVID. Completely. It was because of COVID. I had toyed, I had wanted to do a podcast for a while.

I had been a fan of podcasts for a while. I, you know, listened to, I listened to Sam Harris for a long time. I listened to, I loved your episode with Sam Harris. It was great. I had listened to Pete Holmes and I had done his podcast and I did his like years ago. And as soon as I left, I was like, I got to do a podcast. Like, it seems so fun. I am so thankful I didn't do it then.

Dear Lord, my God. But once COVID happened, I was like, well, I was distraught, honestly, about the one-woman show. it was really helpful for me personally. And it was starting to, you know, professionally was doing good things too. And I was excited about that. And it just felt I was completely devastated. And I felt like I needed some sort of outlet and I needed some way to kind of explore things honestly in a vulnerable way. And that's how it happened. Here's the most obnoxious question. But I want you to know that like I've been asked this of gazillion times in my life and I want to kick people in the face. But I'm not asking it like those people. And I hope you don't want to kick me in the face. No. The question. like what's next for you is not like a tell us what's next like that's not what I mean or like you do so many like people always say this to me like what's left to do you've done it all and it's like really people like I can't with that so what I'm asking you is like really in terms of like it's kind of like when I said

like who are you like do you know who you are I'm curious what you look forward to meaning you know are you a person who do you want to keep writing? Do you, could you see yourself in front of a camera again? Do you want to settle down and have kids? Like, do you know those kinds of things that you want for yourself yet? Well, you know, I actually, this was, this was a fortunate thing to happen over COVID, but I, I've been writing a book for that was based on the one woman show and something happened with that. So that'll be coming out kind of soon. But I've been working on that and kind of getting the story. out in a fuller. I just think a book has the amount of space necessary to kind of cover the ground that I want to cover in the way that I want to cover it entirely. So that's been incredibly fulfilling. But I will say that I think, you know, once this this book process is done and, you know, and if I don't even know if I'd want to do the one would show, if the timing, just because the timing, it's like, well, it was so personal. I don't know if it's going to feel as relevant to me then.

for me writing, as I kind of mentioned earlier, has to come from a personal place. And I don't find much of an interest in it. If it doesn't, I think it's, it's very much got to have that connection for me in order for me to feel motivated and compelled to do it. I have been thinking about my future quite a lot recently because I'm, I'm not sure. I don't think that I want kids. And that's kind of, I thought back at 21, oh, well, I'll get to that point when I want them. And I'm 28 and I'm like almost 29. I don't know if it's coming. I had kind of a window where I thought I might have. And then that window kind of quickly passed. I definitely want to get married. It just seems like a beautiful like thing to me. I still feel a lot of like hope and romance around that concept.

And I know a lot of people think it's very outdated. But that to me just seems very can't take the Mormon out of this girl. That's right. And I also think it represents something to me so much because my parents had such a dysfunctional, chaotic, unhealthy. relationship. To me, it speaks more to kind of overcoming that and it just represents a whole lot more to me. So I hope for that someday. And career wise is, I'm a very kind of career motivated person. I don't think, I don't want to go back in front of the camera. I don't see that happening for me. I'd love to kind of direct things that I didn't write at some point, things that I just kind of connect with. I feel a deep connection to actors and the vulnerability that it takes to do that.

And I respect it so tremendously that I love just kind of like communicating with them. But it's just too much for me emotionally. But so I guess, yeah, that's a very all over the place answer to say I don't know. Totally. That's totally. It's beautiful. And I have to say like, you know, while I'm old enough to be your mom, you know, at 45, I have to tell you like, it's a lot of the same journey, you know, and I think that's one of the really gratifying things about doing this podcast and kind of sharing in this format, which is different than kind of like the YouTube format that I had been sharing in, you know, for years is like I get to kind of talk that stuff out more. And, you know, Jonathan and I talk about this a lot.

Like, I still feel 15. Like, if I close my eyes and think hard enough, I'm that kid. I'm that teenager, like, in my room of, like, I don't want to do anything. I don't want to go out. I don't want to see people. But, like, why doesn't anybody call me? You know, like, it's still, like, I'm still that person. And, you know, like, even after, like, having the wedding and having the kid and, like,

doing all the things. And it's like, okay, so then you get divorced and you just, like, put one foot in front of the other, you know, and it's like, life just kind of keeps doing its thing, but then at 40, you develop an eating disorder that really was just the evolution, you know, of all the other things that were laying dormant, right? So it's just this, like, constant process. And if you were to ask me those things, I'd have a similar set of like, gosh, I don't know. Like, here are some things I want to do. So I just, I think it's really beautiful. And I think the notion is that, like, when, I think when Jonathan and I were both, you know, around your age,

it was this notion of like, I'm going to figure it out. And I just, I'm going to figure it out. I love that you don't have that notion of like, I can't wait to figure it out so that everything is perfect forever. Like, this is the journey. Like, this is life. And I just, um, I love all the parts of it that you have seized and also think it's really, really amazing that through your struggles you've been able to create so much, you know, it's really beautiful.

Thank you. I did want to ask about your directing, though, because you're directing your first feature. Is it soon? Is it very soon? It's like tomorrow. It's very soon. I ask because that seems like such a sort of, that seems like a way where, like, you know, it's a very, it's clearly a sense of, you know, literal direction.

Well, I hope that Dustin Hoffman and Candace Bergen aren't listening to this. Because as I was like working on this script, I kept being like, okay, when are we going to hire the writer to come and write it? Like, I'm ready. Where's the writer? And they wouldn't give me a writer because they're like, nope, you wrote it. And then I was like, okay, well, who's going to direct it? Then I'm directing it.

So I'm not saying it does not, it doesn't feel accidental. everything has been very intentional. But my notion of myself is that I'm not competent. I'm not competent to write and I'm not competent to direct. And it turns out I do. I have a lot of competency and I'm working on that, you know, sense of confidence. It really feels like I'm living a magical realism experience because it's

incredibly bizarre to me. But yeah, that is my summer plan. And, you know, my feeling is I'd love to be off camera because, you know, like my hair's starting to get more gray in here than I anticipated. And I'm like, where did the, why is this part like this? You know? And like I started obsessing about my forearms. Why is there a little wrinkle when I bend my arm in just this direction?

Like things that no one should think. So my feeling is put me in long sleeves and a turtleneck before I have to be on camera again. But the notion also of being an unconventional looking female in the industry is very, it's exhausting, you know, it's really exhausting. I was speaking to a young, a young actress who also has a lot of strong producer and, you know, kind of production skills. And, you know, she's kind of asking for like guidelines and stuff. And it's like, it's very hard for me not to sound like that person of like, if you have any other passion or interest, please lean into it. Do it. Lean into it.

Because there's, while there's a, there is a possibility that this might be an amazing journey, to be an actor. It's mostly a lot of complexity that I don't know if I recommend. Jeanette, you're a really, you're a really, really special person. And I'm really, really glad that we got to connect like this. Thank you. Same here. I have had an exponentially bigger, you know, strange squeal of excitement inside during this conversation as I did when I first got the email about it. It was kind of like a squeak. I'd stick my sweatshirt off. because that interview was hot. You were working hard.

It was very intense. I felt a very special relationship with her. She seems, I mean, wise beyond her years. I'm sure she's never heard that, but she really does. She seems very, very wise. I mean, she's lived through a lot. I didn't know all those things about her. I mean, I just didn't.

I liked when she said, liked is maybe not the right adjective, when she talked about how her mom fell off the pedestal and the impact of that. It's a tough process when someone who you've thought is protecting you and then you have to start to dig underneath what that relationship might have also included. Well, I think that's, you know, one of the cases where we can look to sort of, I mean, there was a lot about, it's true, like I'm totally acknowledging there's a lot about our stories that we're very, like, locked into a very specific experience that I know only she and I and a couple other people can probably relate to specifically.

But that's a great example. There's a time in everyone's life where your parents fall off the pedestal that you've put them on. Parents in particular. I mean, of course, like it happens, you know, with anyone or anything that you make your higher power, as we say. Like, you know, whoever or whatever you worship at some point will fall. But in particular, when that happens with your parent, it can be enormously complicated, depending on kind of the terms in your family by which you had to keep that person on a pedestal, you know, and for what reason? And she's remarkably grounded. I mean, she's been through a lot, but she's remarkably grounded for the complexity that her story has. I mean, if her mother did not have this cancer diagnosis, kind of looming over both of them, you know, I mean, that altered the family as well. And not necessarily from a malicious perspective. I mean, I can't say. And, I don't know even if she can, but that hung over the whole family, no matter what, even if she

hadn't become an actress, you know? And that thread of like, if I do this, she'll be okay. Or if I do this, she might get upset and that might give her not okay, you know? It's a very big complication to the individuation process. And while you say that, like, you know, you and her have this very unique similarity, which you do, a lot of people can relate to that individuation process because we all have to sort of begin to reexamine our parents and who are they as people, not only as our parents who we've put on this pedestal. And it also happens in relationships where people put other people on pedestals.

And then you begin to be like, oh, wait a second, they are also a human being and they have unique characteristics. And you're just silent now because you're like, what has he said about, what has he seen about me that he's now not thinking I am the greatest human being? I still think that. Don't worry. I was actually thinking about this last night. You know, my father, Zichron, My father died six years ago, and I was very, very close with my father. Like, I was his mini-me. You know, we were very, very twinned. And, you know, I was very, very close with him.

You know, we had the same body language. Like, we even had the same physical ailments. Like, you know, we literally had, like, the same body. Like, it's like, I got his body. And, you know, our brains worked a lot of the same way. Like, we liked the same music. We had the same sense of humor. We had the same sense of, you know, critical eyes.

like we were very, very similar. And you wonder, like, was I similar because that was the way to earn his attention? You know, like, it's, who knows? That's what I'm thinking. Keep going. Never mind. My arms are folded for those of you who are listening. Cross.

My point was that even as much as I felt like I knew my father, I was thinking just last night. Like, I had some experience. And I was like, something about, like, it was something about my kids, like, just like thinking about, like, whatever, something I had. And I was like, my dad had to go through this because he was a human and he was like a dad, right? And there's something to when someone dies that allows a completely different sense of revelation. And I think part of it is because you know that you can't talk about it with them. Now, the hippies among you might be like, of course you can still talk to him.

That's not what I mean, people. I don't mean can I commune with him. I don't mean can I go to a psychic. I don't mean can I like to summon his energy. I mean, I can't say, hey, dad, how would you do this? What was this like? Or did you feel trapped? You know, like you can't have that.

So there's something about also that her process really began when her mother passed away, you know, of saying not just like, let's have sex. I want to drink. I want to purge, right? But of like, oh, here's a whole new identity. I have now that this person's not there to reflect it. You know, it's so interesting. I think, I think she was very interesting.

Myam, before we do and ask Miami anything, we're going to let people know that if they want to ask you anything, they can do so at biolik breakdown.com. That's BIA. L-I-K breakdown.com. There's a submission form there. We love when listeners submit audio and video. And thank you so much to everyone who has.

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Drop it like it's hot. Ask my anything. Yeah. Today's Ask Mime Anything comes from Bridget. It's about relationships. Why do I feel a tendency to self-sabotage and feel some insecurity even though the relationship is wonderful and healthy? I'm not laughing at you. I'm laughing with you.

Because you can relate to Bridget? I think you chose this question specifically because you want to hear me answer it. I just want to have you talk all about your self-sabotage. Well, first of all, I don't love the term self-sabotage, not because I don't believe that it exists, but I think it's often masking other things. So, you know, what I like to say is sometimes, and this is really like, this isn't necessarily a neuroscience perspective per se, this is more kind of from my experience, my strength, and my hope, I hope. A lot of times there are things that challenge us that we're afraid of. and sometimes when we're in a relationship,

especially if it's getting more intimate, more, you know, closer to commitment, going into territory you haven't gone into before, and that could mean a lot of things. It could mean you're thinking of traveling together or moving in together or meeting each other's parents. A lot of times those things, and it doesn't have to be directly related,

like, oh, he asked me to meet his parents, now I'm going to self-sabotage. It could be a week later. It could be a month later. All those things brew in your consciousness. and in your experience, and sometimes that fear of closeness and of moving along can be terrifying because it holds a lot of possibility that's new and scary. And we tend to like novelty, but only in certain doses.

And the other thing is, if you have any reservations about a relationship, when things also seem to be moving along, the best way that you can articulate it may be by what looks like self-sabotage, when it could be that you actually have other concerns. So this is really a great example of when doing some introspective work is important, because it's important to be clear on what you want and what you need, and if the other person is helping you fulfill that purpose or if they're serving as an impediment. And that's Ask MyManything. Ask MyManything. Yeah. Which is it for us, Jonathan? It is really hard to know.

What is self-sabotage and what is our instinct leading us to question if there's an underlying issue in the relationship that needs to be addressed? Which is our core instinct, six cents? And which is our like, wait a second, I am having resistance to facing something that I personally need to work on. And if you are not watching this on video, you're missing my, I'm literally dying with laughter. Her face has never been redder ever. Oh my God. Okay.

From our breakdown to the one we hope you never have. We'll see you next time. It's my and the Oliks Breakdown. She's going to break it down for you. She's got a neuroscience PhD or two. One fiction. And now she's going to break.