Mayim Bialik's Breakdown - Jenny Taitz: You Only Fail if you Bail

Episode Date: November 4, 2021

Dr. Jenny Taitz (Assistant Clinical Professor in Psychiatry at UCLA and licensed clinical psychologist board certified in cognitive behavioral therapy) is back to answer listener questions about disordered eating, her personal path to becoming a therapist, and the resources she recommends for aspiring psychologists. Dr. Taitz discusses the causes of disordered eating, suggests when to seek help, and the types of treatments she advocates. She considers social media’s role in the increased prevalence of body image issues, the benefits of dialectical behavior therapy in regulating emotions, and tips to be more mindful and assertive. Mayim and Dr. Taitz discuss the benefits of cognitive behavioral therapy, the differences between short and long term therapy, and strategies to manage anxiety while public speaking. Mayim explains EMDR and how it may be used to help treat PTSD in another installment of Ask Mayim Anything. Jenny's Books: https://drjennytaitz.com/books/ Jenny's Articles: https://drjennytaitz.com/media/ BialikBreakdown.com YouTube.com/mayimbialik Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

For people that feel like they can barely, like, take a breath. I actually help people, like, hyperventilate and then practice speaking because... What? Yeah, if they feel like they're going to be, like, short of breath and then not be able to get a word out, by doing that in my office, like, if we, like, help people breathe with, like, I'm in, you know... It's not about not feeling anxious. It's not about feeling better. It's about living better. And it's okay to be afraid, but it's not okay to lose your voice.

And also, if you do hyperventilate, you can usually get out one word. Help. It's Miami-Biolic's breakdown. She's going to break it down for you. Because, you know, she knows a thing or two. And now she's going to break down. It's a breakdown. She's going to break it down.

Hi, I'm Myambiolic, and welcome to my breakdown. This is the place where we break things down so you don't have to. We're just going to do the heavy lifting. Speaking of heavy lifting, I'm doing a little bit of heavy lifting today because Jonathan is out. Jonathan recently underwent a very significant upgrade to his right hip. And I am doing this episode, Sands Jonathan. That's French because he's Canadian. A little nod to his Canadian roots. He's doing great. I mean, imagine him in any medical environment. It's a real hoot. But he's doing great.

I'm doing this episode without Jonathan, but what we've decided to do is to invite back someone that we've had a really great time with here before. Her name is Dr. Jenny Tates. And she is an assistant clinical professor in psychiatry at UCLA, which happens to be my alma mater. But that's not why we picked her. She's the author of a really, really cool book called How to Be Single and Happy, Science-Based Strategies for Keeping Your Sanity while Looking for a Soul that's her most recent book. And we talked about it a bit when she was here with us last time. She also has written a book called End Emotional Eating. And one of her specialties is eating disorders and disorders eating. She's very passionate about spreading evidence-based hope, which I just

think is a cute phrase. And the way that Jonathan and I learned about her, she actually frequently writes for the New York Times, which say what you will about newspapers or the media. but the New York Times is in my home growing up was really known for its science section and a lot of its medical musings and the New York Times magazine always had a lot about medical and scientific stuff. And so Dr. Jenny writes for the New York Times and she writes little tidbits based on her experience as a therapist and in particular with cognitive behavioral therapy ways to kind of hack your life in the mental health arena. And one of the things that Jonathan likes that she talks about, I miss him, is dunking your face in ice water, like when you're feeling anxious. It's like one of the things that she recommends. I only do it when I need my pores tightened before a long day on the red carpet. Anyway, she is board certified in cognitive behavioral therapy and dialectical behavior therapy, which she's going to talk about.

She also has a clinical practice, which means she sits in an office and actually sees people. and there's a lot of initials after her name. But she's really, really tremendous, and she's agreed to do an episode with us today where she's going to answer some questions that we sourced from our listeners. So we've a really, really cool episode for you. We're going to talk about everything from eating disorders

to how she became a therapist and what are some of the different kinds of therapy that she does and also some information if you're interested in, doing some reading about working on your own self. She has some recommendations of books. We also talk about public speaking, anxiety with public speaking, and just a real hoot. We talk about the difference between misophonia and people just being assholes. Before we welcome Dr. Jenny, though, I actually wanted to do an Ask My Am Anything.

I know it's kind of weird to do it without Jonathan, but I think we can handle it. Ask MyM Anything. Yeah. The question that was asked was, how does E. EMDR help treat trauma and post-traumatic stress disorder. Well, I guess a better question, if you don't mind me rephrasing it, is what the heck is EMDR? EMDR stands for eye movement, desensitization, and reprocessing. So EMDR is a type of therapy. It's something that not every therapist is trained to do, meaning a therapist needs to be specifically trained to do EMDR. So kind of think about hypnosis.

if you've heard about hypnosis therapy, that's something that some therapists do as a modality that they use. It's gaining popularity and it is very helpful for acute trauma and also for longer term trauma and post-traumatic stress disorder. So in about 1990, a psychologist Francine Shapiro noticed the story goes on a walk. She was thinking about something upsetting and noticed that certain movements of her eyes made her feel. feel better. And I know that sounds nuts, but what has happened since then is a tremendous amount of research and a tremendous amount of practical work. And what is involved with EMDR is that a therapist helps you work through a traumatic experience, meaning you talk about it. But while you talk about it, there's a specific protocol of eye movements. And it's not exactly certain what the

mechanisms are. However, these kinds of movements done in conjunction with this specific kind of recounting of traumatic experiences seem to significantly dampen the impact of these experiences. And it is a very, very powerful experience. I have not done EMDR, but my mom has actually talked about it, Bev. Bev has done EMDR and had literally a transcendental experience where you are really transported back in a supportive way to the time and place of the trauma. My mother describes it as she was placed back in her childhood home. And the way she described it is that it was as if something were zoomed in. And through the process of talking and the eye movements she had to do in the tracking,

she said it was literally like the Zoom was released. And she panned back and could see the entire room. room and everything that was happening and all of the feelings. And I mean, I have chills because my mom didn't even start therapy proper until like my father died. And she went through this process. EMDR consists of taking a history. You have to do certain preparation. You have to learn about the process and how it works. There's a desensitization process. And there's a lot of evaluation that needs to be done with the therapist. So it's not something you just like do at home. But in a nutshell, that's what EMDR is. It's a type of therapy that is done that combines reviewing traumatic

events in a very specific way by a trained professional who also facilitates movements of the eyes. And I'm happy to go into the science another time as to why that might do what it does. But I've also had friends do EMDR for trauma from birth or labor. That has been, what they have reported is that in six sessions, they could do what they couldn't have done with six months of therapy. So it's a very, very efficient and acute method of therapy. And so that is what EMDR is. Let's now welcome Dr. Jenny to answer a bunch of other things.

Dr. Jenny, welcome to Miami-Bel. Let's break down. Welcome, Dr. Jenny. as I like to call you. Thank you. Hi, Maya. Thanks so much for coming back and playing a little bit more. Jonathan is very sad that he can't be here with you,

but he has given me specific instructions on what to do and not to do, so I hope I follow those to a T. People responded so well to the first time that you came to break things down with us. And I know we sort of asked you to wear a lot of hats, and you do wear a lot of hats. We talked a bit about relationships and your book, and we also did talk about eating disorders. And what we have today is a little bit of a smattering of questions from our listeners.

And I'm just kind of going to go for it. And, you know, keep in mind you don't need to answer every single thing that might be a possible secondary or tertiary question from it. But people are just excited to ask you a bunch of things. So how did you decide to pursue the profession that you did? And how is it different from what you thought it would be versus what you now know about what you do? as a therapist. Oh, there are so many places I could go with this. You know, I went to religious day school growing up and it was really instilled in me from a very young age that, you know, the purpose of life is to have meaning and that it's really important to like think about, you know, why you're

on this earth. And I, like from a young age, I sort of thought that I needed a career that felt meaningful and that I was contributing in some way. And along with that, you know, my parents got divorced when I was really young. And I spent so many Friday nights at my father's apartment and bored out of my mind, which led to reading books like Chicken Soup for the Soul. And I was really touched, like literally, I was like seven years old reading Chicken Soup for the Soul. And I was so profoundly touched by how, you know, small things can make a huge difference. And so I thought, like, when I first learned about potentially becoming a psychologist, that that was like a field that you could meet with someone and then alongside meeting with someone, there were, you know, things that you

could do to help them change the course of their lives. And that felt really special and, like, a dream career. And in terms of how it's different than what I initially thought, you know, while I had all these lofty hopes, like this would be like meaningful and the guy would contribute and, you know, it would be like chicken soup for this will come to life. I, um, I as a seven-year-old, a lot of the psychologists that I had met growing up, you know, either from someone that I saw when my parents first got divorced to like my high school psychology teacher did not exactly inspire, like, you know, wow, this is, you know, who I, what I want to emulate as a professional. And even, I mean, even on through graduate school, a lot of the psychology professors I had just didn't, you know, I kind of thought like, oh my goodness, like, I wouldn't want to be their patient. And I don't kind of like the line of judgment or thinking or even friends of mine who had parents that were psychologists that kind of felt scrutinized by their approach or their, you know, eye gestures. And so it is quite different than what I initially feared. So much of the psychology that I practice is rooted in mindful.

really not judging, really bringing compassion. And also when I was growing up, you know, people that were in therapy that were doing it well, we're doing it for decades. And that sort of doesn't jive well with my personality. And I also just worried about the practical implications of that, how many people can actually do that. And so I'm pleasantly surprised that sort of my entering the field and the field kind of changing in a way that aligns with mindfulness and time-sensitive treatments really works well for me. My Ambialx breakdown is supported by Superpower. We all know the feeling of leaving a doctor's office

and kind of feeling like we didn't get anything out of the experience that was useful. Maybe they're like, you're fine, drink more water. There's no real data. There's no game plan. This has happened to me many, many times, especially on the perimenopause journey. That's why we're fascinated by what Superpower is doing. They send a licensed professional to your home

or you can visit a nearby lab. One simple blood draw with over 100 biomarkers. That's way more than you usually get. It unlocks a true understanding of your body. Their app has detailed information on heart, liver, thyroid hormones, metabolism, vitamin and mineral levels, even environmental toxins. From disease prevention to treating that annoying brain fog or simply optimizing your gym game, Superpower is the most comprehensive and advanced system out there.

I've been super tired of constantly guessing or just trying to read articles online about what to do for health. Superpower gives you an actionable health plan based on personal results. It's a real game changer. Plus, they have an on-demand clinician team to answer questions. Supplement or prescription suggestions can be directly bought through superpower, so you don't have to go anywhere else. They also have nutritional guidance, tips for lifestyle and behavioral adjustments. You even get your true biological age that you can track over time.

Superpower used to cost $499. Right now, it's $199 for the full experience, which is much more affordable than anything else out there. Make this the year you stop guessing about your health with superpower. Superpower. Not only did Superpower reduce their price to just $199, but for a limited time, our listeners get an additional $20 off with the code break. Head to superpower.com. Use the code break at checkout for $20 off your membership. And after you sign up, they'll ask how you heard about them. Make sure to mention my ambiolics breakdown to help support the show. It seems that a lot of people are interested in, I think the kind of therapist that you do present to be, meaning the just, you, you

you know, for lack of better word, your vibe. And someone asked if you have recommendations of like, if you had to pick five books for people who are interested in either being a psychologist or interested in, you know, mental health work, what would be, and they don't necessarily need to be academic books or what are five books? I mean, is chicken soup for this old one of them? That is not. It's not.

I haven't picked that up. I was thinking about that one was the last time I looked at that and that was like my father's apartment in the early 90s. Yeah, there are so many great books. This is a great question. I love books. A couple of books really come to mind, you know, on that point of mindfulness. I love this book called Mindfulness for Two by Kelly Wilson, which is about really seeing people as like sunsets to appreciate rather than problems to solve. So that is a great book for people that want to become therapists. I also really love motivational interviewing by someone named William Miller. This book is fantastic. It's all about

There have been adaptations for popular audiences on ways to use the approach in, you know, in your own life. But this book is all about, like, how to ask the right questions because so often, you know, telling someone don't do that just rallies their rebellion, demons or urges, you know. And so motivational interviewing mindfulness for two. Yalam is such a legend in the field for Yalim. He has a book called The Gift of Therapy, which has. You know, a message in there that I think is so relevant to the way we approach so many relationships, which is, you know, one of his chapters, there's like a lot of short chapters in that book is, you know, a patient has one therapist.

A therapist has many patients. Really approaching relationships with a sense of like, this person is the one, like, you're special to this person, show up for them in the best way possible. There's a great book for beginner therapists that are the books that I just mentioned are more about. relationship building and rapport and bringing mindfulness to the room and bringing kindness to the room as well as like strategy. A book that really focuses on strategy that I think is really helpful for beginning therapists and I use with people that I mentor is called the Unified Protocol, which is really cool. It's kind of technical, so I wouldn't recommend it unless you're on

the road to becoming a behavior therapist. But it basically, for people out there listening that aren't necessarily interested in becoming a psychologist, but do you. want to like feel overwhelmed. Like I'm struggling with like social anxiety, depression, panic attacks. Like how will I ever get better? Will this take years? The unified protocols are really cool treatment that kind of operates from the idea that it doesn't matter really if you have general anxiety, panic, depression, their core

processes, which include believing negative thoughts, acting according to your thoughts. And so the treatment works across diagnoses. It's really research-based. And so for people that are like, oh, my gosh, I have no idea where to start either with therapy or providing therapy, this treatment manual called the Unified Protocol by David Barlow is a pretty cool way to get your feet wet. Wonderful. That was four. We'll stop there. It's okay. I won't push you for the fifth. So kind of related to sort of that last point, you know, obviously you do specialize in eating disorders and we had a really interesting conversation when you were on our breakdown before. We got a variety of questions, some of which are very, very specific, but I kind of want to group them into a more general question. There was a variety of questions about like, how do I know it's, a problem. How do I know when I need, you know, more care? How do I know, I mean, often hospitalization happens, you know, without you necessarily knowing that you're the one who has to do it.

But can you just speak a little bit generally about maybe the spectrum, you know, of disordered eating and when it becomes something that either needs, you know, specific therapy or, you know, 12-step programs is a free solution that a lot of people use. But can you talk a little bit about the spectrum of severity and sort of the need for more care and how you know when that is? Perfect. And, you know, in terms of when people start like on the continuum from struggling in a way that you think isn't like severe enough to merit care to the other end when you're wondering

when you need a higher level of care, for people that like feel as though they might need some help, I really believe like in preventative medicine. and self-validation, like, if you're struggling even a little bit, why not get yourself some help because you deserve it and you don't have to feel like you're going to get the same number of sessions or intensity of help that someone that's struggling with something much more severe will pursue? But, you know, be kind to yourself, be a good friend to yourself. If you're engaged in a relationship with food that doesn't seem healthy to you,

for sure, like do yourself a favor and start meet with a therapist. I'm going to interrupt you super quick because that's completely true. But I also know, and I know this from personal experience, a lot of people feel like I don't have the money. I don't have the time. I can manage it. It's not that big of a deal. And most people eat like this, which if you live in a large city, many people do. So absolutely, I'm not trying to, you know, undermine your suggestion.

But if you can also, like, take it to that next level of, for people who are still resistant, right? Like what's this level besides you deserve it and you need it, you know, meaning I think everyone could use therapy? Take it to that next level and kind of continue that thought through if you don't mind. Of course. And you're totally right. So many people can't afford therapy and there are really interesting low fee training programs. And I'm talking about like three sessions, not 37. So even if you can't necessarily afford the 37, maybe you could get a couple.

And that takes a specific kind of therapist that's willing to kind of meet you where you're at. and see what your needs are and, you know, do the least to have the most benefit. If you're feeling like this is not the level that I want to invest time to take away from work or limited resources, they're great books. Overcoming binge eating is a really fabulous book. I'm happy to recommend other evidence-based books that do have research behind them. You could definitely do, like, if you know, if you're willing to do the work, you're listening to this podcast, you're definitely growth-oriented, doing things like some self-help

reading might be helpful, really practicing. You know, it's hard to say without knowing the specifics of what, you know, a person might be struggling with, but certainly, you know, thinking about what your food issue is, is it really like feeling like you can't control your portions? Is it feeling like you can't control emotions, which go hand in hand? You know, if it's more on the emotional side, they're definitely great books on managing emotions, definitely talking to a friend or some sort of, like I know you've mentioned, overeaters anonymous being really helpful. So certainly being part of that kind of community or a

mindfulness group. But also, you know, there are interesting, remarkable training clinics that offer pretty low fee for service. And even, you know, there are rollouts online with like group based treatments online that are pretty low fee. And then for people that are struggling more severely and wondering when to kind of like take their care to the next level, it's tough. So many people, I think that I see personally have the idea that like residential treatment is better or more intense or they're going to like spend 30 days and like unpack their life's issues and come back like a new better person and live the rest of their next 30 years in a better way. I certainly would recommend residential treatment for people that have medical complications along with their eating disorder

for people that are seriously underweight or struggling with eating. It's super helpful to have like a structure that allows you to have supervised meals and that allows for that. I personally don't work with people that struggle with anorexia in my outpatient practice because, you know, inpatient treatment is really best for that. For people that struggle with binge eating and bulimia, I do recommend pursuing outpatient CBT or DBT just because, you know, those are research-based programs. If you're away in a residential program, you don't have the same triggers, like, you know, the ability to order food or your partner that's driving you insane or your work stress that's piling up. So there's something about treatment generalizing in your regular life that I think is so

helpful. And so I firmly believe start with outpatient treatment. Make sure you have the right therapist. You know, don't try with one person. If you're not getting your needs met, you could try with someone else, specifically someone that specializes in research fact approaches. And then if you're not, you know, making progress even certain. me. And, you know, there's a whole continuum. Like, you could go from therapy once a week to twice a week. I've done three times a week sometimes. Three times a week. And then you could think about going to residential program. A lot of residential programs are extremely expensive. So I definitely recommend starting without patient. Yeah. And if I can just sort of add from my

personal experience, I think that something that's very interesting and, you know, maybe you can speak to this too, is that I think a lot of people think with eating disorders or disordered eating that there's some like general marker that means you have a problem or you don't have a problem. And the fact is, there can be someone who doesn't show a lot of the behaviors that some people might identify as problematic, but their internal world and their internal relationship with food is so based on rumination, obsessing, guilt, shame. There can be things going on in your head that are incredibly powerful can be very damaging and hurtful and shame-inducing, even if you don't see, quote, the patterns like anorexia or restricting or bulimia or enumar or laxative use. So I think that's

an important thing also for people to realize is that while we know when we see someone who looks severely underweight, we know, oh, that's someone who likely has a problem. Or if we know someone who's bulimic, we can absolutely say this is a person who feels the need to purge. But the larger understanding of eating disorders is a lot more about people who feel a need to keep things in or need to disappear or people who need to get things out and don't want to hold any emotion, any food, anything. So the notion that eating disorders are really just about behavior and what other people see is actually a pretty small part in. in my opinion and my experience of the actual problem.

So it's more really about what you think, what you feel, how you eat. I mean, you know, at the height of my disordered eating, I mean, I hadn't even shared it with my therapist. And it was, you know, it was something that no one knew about. It was something that happened, you know, I mean, when you talk about binge eating disorder, that can happen with nobody knowing, you know. And especially if there's other disordered eating around it, it's not always evident to other people. So can you speak a little bit also to that notion of it's not like there's like a,

oh, you deserve treatment. It's like a very complicated process that reveals more about you than kind of what you're doing or not doing. Absolutely. In mind, this is such an important point. Eating disorders in my mind, and this is totally consistent with the Unified Protocol that I briefly mentioned, is a symptom of, you know, an unhealthy relationship with emotions or negative thinking or, you know, really struggling internally. And I don't want to anyone listening to think that I'm saying that like if you're binge eating, you're less in dire straits than someone that's anorexic, like both are you don't deserve to struggle with either. And there are, I really want to highlight, there are meaningful evidence-based treatments, even if you've been struggling for someone, you know,

mentioned like they're 50 years old. That was one of the questions someone had sent over. It doesn't matter how long you've been struggling. If your willingness to get help and And, you know, connecting with the right person, you will get better if you're willing to put in the work. Definitely, there's so much to unpack in terms of your relationship with yourself, your relationship with your thoughts. I definitely think that good eating disorder treatment is less about food and more about feelings. And that's not to say that people who have disordered eating can't handle emotions, but it's, we all have different ways that we do or don't, you know, function optimally. you know, for us at different stages of life. And, you know, my experience was that it wasn't until a very significant breakup.

And I was 40 years old when binge eating really became all of a sudden a solution. It was not a cognitive thing. I wasn't like, oh, this will make me feel better. Like, it literally, like, that was not something I had ever done, you know. And I also just want to mention that especially living in Los Angeles or if you live anywhere, I mean, I think everywhere is becoming a lot more focused on body and body image and the internet's amazing and we love it. But also it has brought, you know, a notion about appearance and sort of what you quote should look like to a lot more people in a lot more ways. And I think social media has also, you know, I don't mean to sound like the granny who's like, that's social media.

But, you know, I have teenagers and my older son is almost 16. And for sure, I'm seeing, you know, we look at the things that he looks. that together and I'm seeing that there's really one way that it is presented that a body should be, whether you're a boy or a girl. I mean, it's really, it's kind of gone beyond gender, beyond, you know, beyond a lot of things. And so I think that's also really important to acknowledge is that we do have a culture that increasingly is showing us different images and that can weigh differently on people. Entirely. And just so people are clear, I use this acronym DBT and I, we talked about in the previous episode, but I'll just briefly restate what this.

Yeah, that actually was one of the, that was one of the questions. What is DVT? So why don't you go ahead and throw that in there? Yeah, so dialectical behavior therapy is a treatment that teaches people who feel like they feel their feelings intensely, specific tools to regulate their emotions because a lot of, this is an evidence-based treatment for eating because a lot of people try to suppress their feelings and then use maladaptive coping, unhealthy coping strategies like using. food to self-sue, their overthink, you know, as a way to try to problem solve, which also

backfires. And so DBT is a specific treatment that teaches how to manage your emotions, cope with crises, be more mindful, be more assertive. It includes individual therapy, skills training where you literally like learn, like almost like you're in a class. And then coaching calls, which is contact with your therapist between sessions. That sounds like fun. It's honestly like, again, to this generalizing point, like, like, it's all, you know, great in theory if you're, you know, just talking when you're, you know, emotionally regulated. But then once emotions are high, it's really hard to kind of take what you learn in the room or in a residential program and put it into practice. And so the coaching calls. And then it's also really important

when I mentioned DBT, like this is not something. I know I mentioned some self-help books. This is not something that is easy to learn on your own. It's really helpful to meet with a therapist that specializes in dialectical behavior therapy. And so just to be clear, just because, you know, this is something I've really learned about from you. So just like super broad strokes. There's different kinds of therapy. It's not just like you go to therapy. Every therapist goes to school or training or whatever.

And they learn a modality or a type of therapy that they feel best matches the way they want to practice. So cognitive behavioral therapy is one that we talk about here. And that's one kind. And then psychotherapy or kind of classical psychotherapy or talk therapy is another kind. So this is just like another kind, dialectical behavior therapy, DBT. Totally. And I really recommend if someone's like, I really want to talk about my childhood, I really want to understand patterns.

That's great. That's wonderful. That's so growth-oriented, fantastic. If you're struggling day to day, you can definitely start with a treatment that teaches you some of emotion regulation and then move on. I am absolutely like fully support and encourage patients that feel like, you know, they've done some of the work in emotion regulation and want to pursue other treatments to do them at a later time. And this, this brings up actually a good point before I move on to our next question.

You know, I'm the kind of person who like, I don't like change. So for me, you know, I've only been in psychotherapy. Like, that's just like what I was put in as a teenager. And it's worked for me. It's really worked for me. It's, it is a longer term commitment. It's really fun when I meet other people who are also lifers, you know, like I've been in therapy. I've been with the same therapist for about 20 years and that's not because I couldn't get better or I didn't get better. This is the kind of therapy is designed to be an ongoing relationship and part of what is repaired is the concept of relationships and trust and all those things. That being said, I did see a cognitive behavioral therapist for a time specifically for my obsessive compulsive disorder. And I think that's important for

people to realize also that with, I don't want to say ailments, but with things like obsessive compulsive disorder that do have a lot of, a lot of improvement to be made from understanding patterns of thought and how to replace them with different patterns of thought, that's what something like cognitive behavioral therapy can be great for. Now, what I did is I did a little stint with my OCD therapist while also maintaining regular therapy. And then that was a finite period of time. and then I went back to, quote, just seeing my regular therapist. I've done trauma work for PTSD and for somatic pain, mind-body syndrome, they call it. And we have Alan Gordon, who's been on our show talking about that.

And again, that was something I did that can be a finite period of time. So I just want people to know that when you hear us talk about like CBT or DBT, these are things that sometimes with a six-week course, you can learn tools that you literally carry with you forever. And the tools that I got from the time that I did CBT, I do. I have to carry them with me forever. So it's a different style of therapy. And I used to think, let's just talk about my bias, that there was one way to do therapy. And it's like, oh, if you don't want to talk about your childhood, you obviously don't want to get better.

And that's a really arrogant, stupid thing that I used to believe. But I'm grateful. I mean, Jonathan's been part of this conversation, even though he's not here right now, understanding that not everybody's going to want to meet themselves, you know, where they're at. I don't mean Jonathan teaching me this about himself. I mean, in our conversations that we've had, that notion of opening up your concepts, you know, of therapy, meaning, you know, everybody listening or watching. There's not one way to do therapy. And there's not a rule that you have to be in it for 20 years or you have to be in it for the rest of your life. The therapists who are trained like this are also trained to give skills that then can be kind of brushed up.

And I think that's really important for people to remember. Totally. And mine, I also just want to add, it's even a CBT therapist, especially good CBT therapists or taking a look at childhood. It's kind of like this mix of like, it's not like they're like, I don't want to know. Yeah, it's like a mix of rear view mirror. You know, when you're driving,

you need a bit of the rear view mirror, but a lot about like where you're going and what's next. And so there's definitely a hybrid. And the thing about that these like these shorter term therapies is, you know, to your point earlier for people that can't necessarily afford really longstanding treatments or that really have symptoms that are interfering with their day to day lives. it can be really helpful. And I have, I have so much respect for people that are that are doing

longer term payments as well. Oh, yeah. Just here for life. No, I was laughing because I have a friend who's, we were neuroscience undergrads together and graduate students. And he is a cognitive behavioral therapist. And we've sort of had this like long running literally for almost 20 years, you know, debate over like what's the best? Like what's the right therapy? And, you know, whenever we're talking about stuff just as friends, you know, obviously he can't totally turn off his therapist hat, but, you know, I'll go into like, and I think it's because of this and my mother and the thing. And he'll just look at me and be like, uh-huh, so what are you going to do about it? You know? And like, that's, and sometimes I need to hear that, you know, like, okay, now you

know that. And what are the changes that you get to make? And the idea is not that talk therapy lets you linger in misery, although that is some people's assumption when they hear I've been there for 20 years. But anyway, I just was laughing because I hear his voice being like, okay, but what's the thought that's going to replace that thought? Like, okay, but how are you going to do it? Like, what are you going to do today? Anyway, someone asked about misophonia. Sometimes there's words that get kind of thrown into popular culture and people love to throw them around. I've talked about how I don't like when people say, like, I like my shoes lined up. I have OCD, which you may have OCD, but it's not because you like your shoes being lined up. It's a much more complicated

thing. But people do talk about misophonia a lot. Can you explain from a more clinical perspective, like what it is? Yes. So misophonia is extreme sensitivity to sound. Certain sounds like chewing sounds like could drive someone insane. My ex-boyfriend. Insane. Well, it drives people to the point and I don't want to use the word insane like in a majority of way, but it can make someone so disturbed that they don't want to do things like in the pre-COVID days go to the movie theater or they literally, I've had clients who feel so, the word is really disgusting. They feel so disgusted by certain sounds that they, like, could almost vomit. And so this is really, it's not in someone's head.

A lot of the people that I've seen that have this have described feeling this way since childhood. It's really important. Like you mentioned, you know, OCD treatment. The treatment is similar to OCD treatment. It's a lot of exposures. A lot of the treatment for misophonia is really radically accepting. like there is kind of like a fight or flight response when they hear some of these trigger sounds. And so, hold on. Hold on. I don't think that my ex-boyfriend listens to this. I mean, I'm not going to like saying anything. But I am curious because I didn't know that this was a thing. And I just thought he was picking on me. Like I just thought he was being critical. And it was really. And also I am a disgusting eater. Let's just like get that out there. I'm gross. I was raised like an animal. No one knows why it. Well, I'm sure.

sure that there's some theories. It's post-Holocast stuff. Anyway, I am a terrible eater. And, and apparently for people with misophonia, it doesn't have to be just that someone chews with their mouth open, right? It's literally even just a song of someone chewing gum. Right. There is a continuum. Right. Some people are easily grossed out by like certain behaviors, but this is like maddening for people or like affects their ability to work and like a writer's room or something. Right. So, and this was a thing was that like he hated that I chewed gum. And I'm a super, I am a loud gum-chewer. But I think it's really, it's interesting because it gives me a lot of compassion for whatever he must have been experiencing must have been really, really legitimately unpleasant.

You know, and I just dismissed it as like, I can't do anything right. And like, everything I do bothers you. Can you help me make a distinction? Because I'm a person, I had a significant car accident nine years ago. And I had some very, very specific and still do PTSD features. And I don't mean like, oh, it was so upsetting. I mean, like, really, really clinically astounding. Very surprising. Many have subsided. Many have stayed. One of them that has stayed is that I'm sound sensitive, but not necessarily the way you're describing. So I want to make sure, like, if I hear a, if a fire engine passes by, I literally feel it in my body. And it feels like pins and needles that run from my head to my toes. It feels like an electric shock. That's different, correct? That's not

misophony. That's more afraid than discussed. Okay, got it. And misophonia, for people that are listening thinking, like, oh my goodness, I have this or someone I know has, has this, this is something that increasingly therapies are being used to help you treat this. You know, it's very tempting. You know, I've seen people that didn't go to the movies for years or didn't work in, like, coffee shops for years. And there are ways to really work on, you know, releasing tension in your body when you hear those sounds, not running away, not like, you know, acting repulse because that's only physiologically going to He seemed really upset the ex-boyfriend when I would chew. He was really, really upset. Now I feel bad. Now I have to make amends. Okay. Someone asked for some tips to manage anxiety while public speaking. And I know that this is something that is very common. A lot of people have anxiety. You know, I'm asked a lot about it because I get very nervous when I perform. I get very nervous when I have to speak. and there's a lot of things that I do

that I think people wouldn't realize are kind of regulating a lot of the anxiety. We've all heard the like picture everybody in their underwear. But can you give us like a little more a little more like grounded practical suggestions because many people feel very limited by this if they want to go into a career where they need to speak

or maybe they just need to present something at a meeting? What kind of what is it and what are just some practical things people can do? I love this question because I think the first way to live better is to get rid of the shame that gets in the way of getting help. So like even asking this question is a step in the right direction. And so many people that struggle with fear of public speaking have this combination of rules for themselves and just backfire. So they have, you know, really perfectionistic standards. This has to be, they have to really impress people and also make them laugh. Then they have a, uh, fear of their body reacting in a way that's not going to be helpful, like panicking or their mind going blank. And then the third thing that oftentimes people do when they fear public speaking is avoided at all costs. So you have this, you know, impossible trifecta of high expectations that creates your body to react in a way that allows you to not be able to focus. And then

avoiding it at all costs, there's no way you'll ever feel more at ease. And so I really work with clients on changing their expectations. Like the goal is like their values. Like what is the reason behind, the meaning behind what they want to share. And really focusing on like showing up rather than sounding perfect. You know, you only fail if you bail.

And then exposure therapy. My big, I want to do a public service announcement for exposure therapy. For people that have fear, there's no way that you're just automatically going to feel like I'm ready to do public speaking unless you systematically approach it. So, you know, you could make a list of least to greatest fears around public speaking. Is it speaking to people you know? Right.

Speaking to people you don't know, is it scripted, unscripted? And I just want to say that I actually personally hated public speaking and I took classes, which are super helpful and actually super annoying, but like improv for executives, which, you know, which was so great. I did that like 10 years ago. And I more recently did, now it's like my passion project is how to be a better communicator. Like if I want to spread hope, like that's something to do. So I think, you know, anyone that wants to work on this certainly can. It's very helpful if you feel like your fear is getting in the way of your quality of life to work with a therapist that could help you design exposures. But if you can't afford that, there's certainly, you know, groups like Toastmasters.

There's even like virtual reality. I've heard of them. Yeah. Yeah. There's even virtual reality. goggles that can simulate speaking in front of an audience to help and practice. But yeah, yeah, if people Google that, it's, it's not that expensive. I think it's like 20 bucks to do like a VR experience for public speaking. I never thought of that. So not that you were asking, but here are my very amateur tips.

Breathe. A lot of people when they're preparing to speak, like literally even, they forget to take deep breaths. And when you take short breaths, it makes your nervous system do a whole. whole dance that you don't want it to do that makes everything else harder after. So even having 30 seconds before you actually have to speak where you remember to breathe, I like to say, like all the way up to your collarbone. Don't just breathe in your diaphragm. Like feel it, like fill all the way up. Also, there's a lot of really great free meditations. I use Insight timer, but there are great two minute body scans, like things like that to literally lower your

baseline. It lowers your blood pressure. It lowers your baseline. Another thing is that a lot of people don't speak loud enough because they are nervous, but using a normal, assertive voice can make a big difference and slowing down. Many people think, oh, if I just like rush through it, then it'll be done. That actually just builds anxiety because often people can't hear you. They can't understand you. You'll get quite like, so simple things. And I also, you know, I've even like talked about this with my kids when I've, you know, helped them do stuff for, for their classes and stuff. You don't have to constantly make eye contact with people, meaning we live in a world that is very forgiving, especially when you're young and you're learning. It's okay to not constantly make eye

contact and have something memorized, you know? It's not an audition for Gary Oldman, where you really want to be off book. Like, it's okay to have, you know, reference materials. Almost every time that I speak publicly, the first thing I say is, you know, thank you for having me. I'm nervous. I say it out loud and I own it. And I say my voice is going to shake for a couple minutes and then it'll probably even out and I'm just going to do my best here, you know? And in 12 step rooms, people say, like, they ask their higher power, you know, to be with them and guide them through it. So sometimes, obviously, depending on the audience, it's okay to say like, hey, this isn't a super strength of mine. Here we go. We're going to get through this, you know. And I always

go back to tell them what you're going to tell them, tell them, and then tell them what you told them. And I learned that from Dr. Marco Jacoboni, the neurologist who I assisted as an undergrad, those things generally help. And again, those are like super like, I'm not a therapist. Like, that's not what I do for a living. But those are just like some of my basics. Am I wrong about all of them? Some of them, most of them. You're definitely an expert in this because you're a performer, you're a speaker. I think so much of what you said is brilliant. And for people, you know, I think I'll just add on for people that feel like they can barely, like, take a breath. I actually help people like hyperventilate and then practice speaking because.

What? Yeah, if they feel like they're going to be like short a breath and then not be able to get a word out, by doing that in my office, like, if we like help people breathe with like a thing, you know. That's horrible. But you realize that like, oh my gosh, that's like the, like, I feel that for the first thing. Right. And then I like, then my body knows how to breathe. And then, you know, my breath will resurface in terms of announcing that you're anxious,

that works for you. But for many people. It may not work for most people. Yes, you're right. Yeah. For some people, it might get in the way of their ability to get promoted or. Oh, yeah. No, no.

I meant more in informal settings. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that could be considered like a safety behavior, something that reduces your anxiety, the things you feel worse. So I really try to help people think about, like, what helps them short term, but long term back. And then, yeah, and the exposure therapy is super helpful for people to just realize, like,

it's okay to blush. It's okay to feel short of breath. It's okay to, like, lose your train of thought for a second. But some of what you're talking about, like really specific strategies is definitely really helpful for people to kind of rely on. And I just want people to have the philosophy that it's not about not feeling anxious. It's not about feeling better. It's about living better.

And it's okay to be afraid, but it's not okay. lose your voice. Right. And also, if you do hyperventilate, you can usually get out one word. Help. Your body will, like, reset. Like, you know, especially if you bring it on, then it changes the relationship. It's not like, oh, my God, it's happening. It's like, welcome. And the attitude of welcome gets in the way of panic. That's really, really helpful. Thank you. You're awesome. And thank you so much, Dr. Jenny, for being with us yet again. Thank you so much. It was so lovely. Thank you. It's very strange to talk without Jonathan here because I really wish that he was here to talk about all the things that Dr. Jenny just spoke about. It's not so much what she says, which I think is awesome, but it's so much about how she says it.

And I know that everybody has a different style of what's going to work for them for therapy. But this is a really, really lovely example of what therapy can look like, meaning this is a person who she's so educated, she's so compassionate. She's focused on mindfulness, so I consider her a really kind of like progressive therapist. And I just really, I appreciate how gentle she is. Like, I didn't miss that I said something she didn't agree with, but she was very gentle with how she told me it. It was the thing about, I like to say I'm nervous when I'm speaking, but it's true. Your boss may not like that if you're like, I'm a terrible speaker. Anyway, depends on your job, depends on the environment.

But she's just a really gentle and lovely person. This is someone that I wish everyone had access to, you know, and I think that her point and kind of the discussion about therapy in particular is one that I want to just kind of underscore a little bit. There's not some sort of abstract subjective notion of when you need help, whether it's for an eating disorder, for anxiety, for depression. She recommended some really good books and we'll link to those and do all the things. And you can go to Biolicbreakdown.com. That's BIA, L-I-K, breakdown.com, and get that. those resources. That's a really good place to start. But the fact is, you know, as Jonathan and I talk

about, having mental health support is a human right, whether you would benefit from one session or one year of sessions. It's not a competition for who can tough out this life the longest, without getting help. The fact that help in general has been reserved for the wealthy is wrong. and it's something that we are, I think, seeking to address as a society. You know, I like to say if I can leave this earth doing one important thing, it would be, you know, in the field of mental health to find ways for people to have access to health care as a human right. So there's not necessarily a juggling that needs to happen in your head of, do I need help yet?

if you're wondering why things don't feel right, if you're wondering why you have sleep problems, if you're wondering why a lot of things don't feel like they're lining up in ways that feel healthy, it is probably beneficial for you to open your mind to the possibility of speaking to someone. And that doesn't mean you're going to be in therapy forever. And it doesn't mean that you're going to be on medication. It doesn't mean if you're put on medication, you're going to be on medication forever. This is a process. health is a process. It's a journey and it's part of us. It's not something separate from us.

Like, oh, I'm having this life. Oh, maybe I should have therapy. You're having a life that involves a constant processing. Even if you're a person who's like, I don't like to think about emotions, your brain is already doing it. Your heart is already working through it. So this is something that's happening to you, through you. It's something that is available whether you think that you need it or not, meaning that level of understanding that's something. yourself is available to you. I've yet to meet someone who has gone to therapy and it made their life worse. Does therapy sometimes bring things up that you've been pushing aside? Yes, but I can guarantee you if it doesn't get processed through, it'll come out in some other way.

I am evidence of that. I have lived that. I have been grounded by physical ailments that have absolutely been complicated by my lack of addressing psychological and mental health things. My back was out for a month recently. There's nothing wrong with my back, except that I'm extremely stressed out and not always managing things well. So even me, someone who's been in therapy for so long, I need those reminders too. I made the decision to get back into cognitive behavioral therapy to address some of this stuff. So this is an ongoing process. And thank you for being part of this journey with us from our breakdown to the one that we hope you never have.

We'll see you next time. break down she's gonna break it down for you she's got a neuroscience phd or two one fiction one and now she's gonna break down gonna break it down