Mayim Bialik's Breakdown - Jesse Tyler Ferguson: I Was the Puzzle Piece That Didn’t Fit

Episode Date: May 30, 2023

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (Modern Family, Dinner’s On Me Podcast) discusses why Modern Family was a pop culture touchstone, being bullied as a child and typecast as an adult, and the importance of having well-rounded gay characters. Jesse reveals he used to have a crush on Mayim as a kid, he and Mayim discuss being on competing shows at the same time, and their shared friendship with Jim Parsons. He opens up about why he resonated with Modern Family’s premise and cast, the show’s fears about showing displays of affection between its gay characters, and meeting his husband at the start of the series. He reflects on getting arrested for shoplifting porn as a child, his awareness of his sexuality at a young age, why community theater and debate club were a positive outlet for him, and why winning a Tony award had a deep impact on him. Jesse Tyler Ferguson's Podcast, Dinner's on Me: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/dinners-on-me-with-jesse-tyler-ferguson/id1683905652 BialikBreakdown.com YouTube.com/mayimbialik Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I was caught stealing gay porn when I was a teenager. So I feel like I always felt like that was a pretty solid sign. Like my parents, you know, were called and, like, they were shown the nature of the material I was stealing. So I sort of feel like, guys. Wait, wait, wait, hold on one second. Where, where, who founded school? Priests. Priests.

No, so what happened was I had been sort of stealing. feeling gay porn for a while and I had hit it in a box in my room. And then this was in my teenage years. And then I got very nervous about it. So I hit it in this alleyway that we had behind our house. And my dad saw me climbing over this wall with a box. And I'm sure it was like, oh, God, he's stashing his drugs that he's selling or something. You know, of course, that's where his mind goes.

So he goes to find this box that I stashed away. And it's like, you know, naked men. He definitely said, I found this, explain it, and I was like, I don't, I think I said I was like holding onto it for a friend of mine, you know, like, like obviously a lie, but in my dad's mind, he's like, okay, that's enough. I believe that story. Like, you gave me an out, I'm going to take it. Yeah. Like, you can get off the highway at this point, sir, if you want, he's like, I'll get off the highway. Alex breakdown. She's going to break it down for you because, you know, she knows a thing or two.

And now she's going to break. Hi, I'm I'm Bialik. And I'm Jonathan Cohen. And welcome to our breakdown. We are remote and having a lot of trouble. My hair is also doing a crazy thing today. So this might be an episode you want to take a peek at. It's going the wrong direction.

I can't make it stop. It's insane. That's the episode. That's not the episode. The episode is... We're going the wrong direction and we cannot make it stop. The episode is we are hosting... He's a very famous person.

He's also extremely... extremely recognizable. This is one of those people like, I don't think he can hide. Like, he's got a cute different haircut today than I'm used to seeing him with. But Tony Award winning actor, author, producer, and host Jesse Tyler Ferguson. Jonathan, where would most people know Jesse Tyler Ferguson from? Modern families. Have you seen that show? If you haven't seen that show, you've been living under Iraq. He played Mitchell, half of the infamous and famous gay couple on Modern Family, which he will talk about it, ran for 11 seasons.

I know how many Emmy Awards Modern Family won, because Big Bang Theory was often up against them, and it was like a whole thing. He also received five Emmy Award nominations for Outstanding Supporting Actor in a Comedy Series, as Jonathan pointed out, won more than me.

On a competition. Also for People's Choice Award nominations. And, as I mentioned, he won a Tony. He started in theater, He went back to theater after Modern Family. He does so many beautiful, beautiful things for the LGBTQIA plus community. He's an awesome, fun person with a podcast of his own called Dinner's on Me.

It's really a pleasure to welcome Jesse Tyler Ferguson. Break it down. I'm so happy to be here. Thank you. Thank you so much for being here. We have crossed paths over the years in many different ways. we were on two shows that received a lot of attention and viewership and conversation and Emmy nominations. Yes.

And I would see you across the aisle for many years at the Emmys. You all went far the longer than we did. Or did we end at the same time. Or you might have ended a year before us. We did 12 years. But I didn't come on until the end of season three. Right. Right. So, but yeah, we basically overlapped exactly the same times.

And then I think we went another year after you. I was doing a show called The Class, which was James Burroughs show. It was supposed to be the buzzy show of the year. And we only lasted one season. And Jason Ritter was in it, and his best friend is Simon Helberg. And Simon was like, oh, I'm doing this new show called Big Bank Theory. And that was a show that replaced us. Basically, they took our time slot and everything.

And then I did Modern Family. And I was like, oh, I'm back on the game. And then, like, we ended at the same time. So I was like, I cannot believe, like, in the time that Big Bang 3 was on, I had a show, it was canceled, I got another show, it ran. And, like, I ended at the same time. That's how you know your shows run a long time when you're like. Yeah, I mean, maybe you could talk a little bit about that

because also you were also part of a large ensemble, which I think, you know, allows for a lot of different dimensions to a show because you have so many different characters that you can dive into and obviously on your show, every aspect of everyone's character got really fleshed out and so interesting. Can you talk a bit about sort of when you started Modern Family? What was it like for you to step into that role? Well, I mean, first of all, I've had the great luxury in my career of being a part of like some really great ensembles, mostly in theater. So I just love sort of the group effort of a whole bunch of great actors coming together to tell a story.

and like it's not on anyone's shoulders. And that's always been very alluring to me. So I was really excited that, you know, when I met the cast of Modern Fam, I was like, oh, this is like a really great group of people that I feel like is all game. And like any one of us could like hold the show up if we needed to, but none of us have to do that.

So that was a really nice feeling. I had, yeah, I had just come off of what I was, you know, I was telling you that this other show that was canceled. And so I, being a theater kid, it's like, I'll just go back to New York and do theater. And I was happy to do that. I sort of thought I tried, you know, I tried my luck with LA. And I never dreamed of being an actor in Los Angeles or being on TV. I always wanted to do theater.

So it was just, you know, it was a natural thing that was like, okay, I've done this. It has not worked out. I'm going to go back and do theater. And then the script for Modern Family came in. And when I read it, I mean, I don't know if this is just me not thinking enough of myself, but I was like, oh, I mean, I'd love to, I'd love a shot at it, but certainly they're not going to choose me. You know, I'm no one. And so I went into the audition, like, kind of like, oh, it'll be fun to just like meet these people

that wrote this really cool script and hopefully they'll think it'd be for something else in the future. And then I ended up getting it, which was a really, you know, mind-blowing thing. And I mean, I was drawn to it for so many reasons. I mean, obviously the writing was very good. But for me, I just saw an opportunity in telling the story of this gay couple. You know, at that time, marriage equality was only legalized, I think, like, eight states. And, you know, we were in the middle of the Proposition 8 trials in California, which had banned same-sex marriage. And, you know, they were being taken to the Supreme Court.

And it was a very like electric time around gay rights and marriage equality. And I thought, okay, wow, this is an opportunity to bring this gay couple into so many people's homes and kind of a Trojan horse style, you know, through comedy and through these great characters and great writing. And I just thought, okay, I would love to be the mouthpiece for that. And for me, you know, being a kid growing up in Albuquerque, New Mexico, closeted and gay, and a fan of television, a consumer of TV, I remember watching these programs at home and thinking, God, I don't see myself represented in any of these stories. I don't find anything aspirational about any of these characters. And even the gay characters that happen to be honest,

they're great and they're fun and they're entertaining, but they don't feel aspirational for me. So to play half of a couple, half of a same-sex couple on television, adopting a baby in the very first episode, and then going through the same trials and tribulations and am I good enough that every parent goes through gay and straight, what felt like such rich opportunity? And I just, I was just so honored that I got to, you know, be the mouthpiece for Mitchell.

And, you know, because that story did mean so much to me. And it was a story that I felt really needed to be told. And I love that in some way, I think that. show was a pop culture touchstone for, you know, what was happening in the country at that point. So it was, you know, as an actor, you know, I'm sure you always like, do you just want to work? And then if it gets to have that extra social, you know, element and there's like ramifications that are good, that's just like, I mean, the cherry on top. Yeah, I think people especially, even though it hasn't been that long ago, I think people forget

what it was like, even. 10 years ago, 15 years ago. And I think, and maybe you can speak to this a little bit because I know you were an avid consumer of this show, you know, the notion that it was considered courageous to show something that we now barely even need to give that weight because it's not courageous, it just is. I think people forget, especially for actors,

like what a big deal that is to have that jump that you can make from not just working, but working at something that you're so proud of. Yeah. Yeah, truly. Absolutely. And Jesse, wasn't there a conversation about how much PDA could happen between the couple and, like, staging as to when that was going to happen? And how would the audiences react? Yeah.

There was like a Facebook campaign that the gay couple doesn't kiss enough. So the power of a Facebook campaign, we gave him some kisses. But, you know, it's fun. I think there probably was a little bit of, it's so funny. So the first season, we had no gay writers on the show. We had a few gay writers who sort of helped with the pilot, but there was no, no one in the writing room for our first season that identified as gay.

And they would sort of come to me with like the, is this okay? Is that okay? What would a gay person say? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, does this pass the test? It was like, I was like, okay. I love that you were like, you want. to get this right so badly that you're asking me.

And I'm going to answer your questions, season one. But then season two, we're going to meet some get some gay riders in there. And sure enough, they did. But I think a lot of it was maybe for them, you know, just being afraid of the sexuality of Cam and Mitch and afraid to, like, cross that line. And it was a whole bunch of straight people writing this gay character, these gay characters. And I think that that was probably kind of why there was not a ton of PDA between them. We had really fun witty banter and bickering and, you know, all the fun things that writers love to do.

You know, we're sitcom characters. They love the, they love the bap, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, we want a joke. You know, seven jokes per page. So it's like they were doing that really well, but maybe they weren't necessarily showing the connective tissue of a relationship in the best way because they were like nervous about doing that. So in season two, after this Facebook campaign it started, we happened to have some gay writers on staff. And we're like, yeah, let them show some PDA. And they centered a whole episode around, the episode was called The Kiss.

And it was all about how my character, Mitchell, was afraid of PDA and Cameron was always trying to show affection. But what was so beautiful, and what I loved about our writers is that this episode ended up not being about Mitch and Cam, these gay couples. It ended up being about me and my father. And his discomfort was showing affection to me. And that's kind of where that was,

that was instilled to me from those moments early on in my childhood. And so the big moment of the kiss was actually the entire family saying, Jay, kiss your son, Mitch, kiss your dad. And we kiss, and that was the big kiss. And then all the other couples are sort of, you know, hugging and kissing. And then in the background, you see Mitch and I share a kiss. And it's in the background, and it's not in front of the camera. It's this little tiny private moment to show,

that if you caught it, you caught it. If you didn't, you didn't. But these people live, like, without a camera on them. And they do show affection. We're also not showing them going to the bathroom. There's like a lot of things you don't see. You know, it's like, you know, I just, I think it was sort of the writer's way of saying, like, these people love each other, you know, this is, this is the dynamics of their relationship. It's not representation, it's not representation of every gay couple, but this is how this couple operate. I want you to flesh a little bit of that out because when I was on Big Bang Theory, they would ask me things because I was a real-life neuroscientist.

And they'd be like, how would you do this in the lab or what's an activity? A completely different level of conversation from what you're talking about. Right, right, right, right. Where you're essentially as a gay man being asked to speak to the entire gay experience, which is also not something that every gay person needs to have to do. This comes up a lot with diversity, equity, and inclusion conversations about who can speak for who. How do they speak for who? And I wonder if you can talk a little bit to the sensitivity of, you know, just because you have a gay writer,

it doesn't mean they're also going to write every person's gay experience. And I have plenty of gay friends and family, and they're all different, just like heterosexual people are different. Isn't that amazing? I wonder what that also. It's incredible. Yeah. So I wonder if you can speak also to, you know, any sort of, not pressure, but any sort of awareness you felt, both as an actor and, you know,

on behalf of sort of crafting a character that is not all gay people, but for many people might be the most fleshed out gay person they've seen on television. Oh, absolutely. I mean, the thing is every community. I mean, mankind is a rainbow of different people. and, you know, we're playing just a few colors of that rainbow. And, you know, I feel like the most pressure I actually felt was from the gay community itself because, you know, it's like certain situations are not relatable to everyone in the gay community.

Like, oh, I would never do that or I would never say that or that, you know, Camas being super over the top in this point or Mitch is being ridiculous. I mean, the thing is I was playing basically a version of myself. So when I was being called a stereotype, I was like, well, I mean, it's kind of an insult in a lot of ways because I'm kind of just playing myself. But the thing is you can only embody the, and this is with every character, you can only embody that person to the fullest extent. You can't worry about people pleasing everyone. And this is hard for me because I am a massive people pleaser. want everyone to like me. And I know that I'm not everyone's cup of tea, but I'm like, but I want to be everyone's cup of tea. I want them to only want my tea. Like, you know,

it's, I just want to, I want to please everyone. So it is a, it's a difficult thing because I, I would take these criticisms that, you know, I would hear, you know, at the time I was reading a lot of Twitter and, and, remember those days when we thought it was good to read those things? Remember those days? Oh, my God. How foolish were we? Um, but I, I would, they would, they would upset me. And I had to step away from it, but you can only be responsible for this one character. You can't be responsible for pleasing everyone.

And just like, you know, I'm sure, like, who was I? I was talking with a friend of mine. Oh my God, it says it sounds so stupid. And she's actually not a friend of mine, but it was in an interview. It was Oprah Winfrey. But she was saying, like, my buddy Oprah. No, I was, I did an interview with her about. being gay in Hollywood and playing gay characters. And I think I've talked about this very thing.

And she said the same thing. Like, I feel the same pressure sometimes. I feel like I have to represent the entire African-American community. And, you know, so it's, I was happy to hear that other people who are in a place where they're sort of put on a pedestal, whether they want to be or not, are putting a place on in a spotlight or given a bullhorn, feel that pressure to then, there's a responsibility behind that to please everyone in that community that you are, representing. And the truth is, Mitch and Cam did not represent the entire gay community. They represented themselves. And, you know, it is a lot of pressure. It is a ton of pressure. And I can only imagine that the pressure I felt was tenfold by the riders, truly, because they

had to write these situations that they were in. Miami-Bi-Lex breakdown is supported by superpower. We all know the feeling of leaving a doctor's office and kind of feeling like we didn't get anything out of the experience that was useful. Maybe they're like, you're fine. Drink more water. There's no real data. There's no game plan. This has happened to me many, many times, especially on the perimenopause journey.

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use the code break at checkout for $20 off your membership. And after you sign up, they'll ask how you heard about them. Make sure to mention My Ambiotic Breakdown to help support the show. You and I also shared Jim Parsons as a friend in common. And I obviously had a very specific relationship with Jim on camera that a lot of people had conflict about. Many wanted Sheldon's character to be androgynous, to not have a girlfriend.

And there was kind of an added interest, think, because Jim is a person who is open about his sexuality and his identity. And I also work with Cheyenne Jackson, you know, a person who gets a lot of criticism for playing straight characters when he also is an out and proud, you know, gay man. And so I wonder if you can answer, and this is not, you don't have to answer this for the entire gay community. I'm only asking kind of your opinion. Yeah. What is your sort of feeling about playing straight characters

or straight actors playing gay characters? Where do you feel comfort as an actor? And, you know, obviously you had a career before, modern family, and you have a career after. But what's it like for you? You know, it's a question I have answered a few times, and I don't think I've ever answered it the same way. Because it's something that's sort of evolving with me,

Like, I'm still figuring out what I do feel about it. I can speak for myself saying that I want to have the opportunity to play a wide variety of different people, gay, straight, you know, different from different places, different backgrounds. That's very interesting to any actor. You know, you don't want to just play someone who's really great at science, although you do that really well. And you're doing it in real life on Jeopardy, too. But, you know, I, it's interesting.

I had this conversation with Eric recently. I said, if Eric Stonstery, who played Cam on the show, I was like, do you think if the show is being cast today, would you be playing this role? And he said, I don't think I would. I don't think, I'm in a, we're in a place where I just don't think that I would have been someone that they would have been allowed to pursue.

And I, I personally, you know, in hindsight with the show, you know, in my rear view mirror, I can't imagine the show existing without him in that role. I can't imagine my role existing without him. So like he's so connected to that experience for me that I just, the idea of him not being a part of it is just, it's impossible. It doesn't, that doesn't exist. But I do understand his feeling about that.

And I think he's, he's correct in feeling that. I think for me, there is a lack of opportunity. for even just the opportunity to be a part of these projects for a lot of people in the community, specifically the trans community. I feel like we don't look towards the trans community, and there's a great, there's a huge pool of actors in the trans community who are very talented, and some of them are breaking through, MJ Rodriguez being one of them. And we're like, oh, they're very good.

It's going to take a little bit of effort on the side of the studios and the cast and departments to kind of go into those communities and find these people because they exist, but they're not being pushed to the front of the line. And that's where I think it's a problem. I think we need to do a better part of, on our part, of like, looking for these people because they do exist. And yeah, they're not going to be people that can open films. I mean, or at least they think they can be, but they're not going to be like a huge, like, known commodity. We're going to have to take risks with these people. But I think that it's, the risk is absolutely worth taking because the talent is there and the authenticity of the stories that they're going to tell are going to be so much more

powerful told through their lens. And so I do think we need to do a better job. And that being said, I also feel like we can't say that only one person can play one thing. And that's a disservice to everyone as well. There are great actors who are, you know, have so many capabilities. I also just did a play with Jesse Williams on Broadway. And he played a baseball player who comes out of the closet. And he spoke pretty eloquently about, you know, about what it means to play a gay person. He's like, I understand that there's probably people in the gay community who are upset that I'm playing this part. And they should be. But, you know, it's also, this is a role that was written by a Jewish man who's not black.

And, you know, he's writing a black character and he wrote it beautifully. Like, we have to allow people to expand and be able to, you know, there is a Venn diagram there. We can also draw from other people. And I do think that saying you can only be one thing, and these are the boxes that we're going to put you in, is a disservice to everyone. But again, it's an answer that I don't fully know how to answer,

and I'm still grappling with it. I also know that there was a friend of mine who was writing something, and she said, you know, we are, you're on a list of people that we think we might bring in for this part. And then a few weeks later, she goes, oh, they really needed to go with a straight actor because it's a straight part. And I was blown away by that. I was like, wow, wow. I haven't actually encountered that yet. I played straight many times before my role in Modern Family.

And all of a sudden, like, I'm only known as this thing because I was on this program for 11 years and that's now, that's my lane. And, like, I can't change lanes. It's like, you know, there's double yellow lines on both sides of that lanes. And that was frustrating. Anyway.

When we spoke to Simon. Helberg. He expressed something similar that people expect him to be that character and that breaking out of that role has been very difficult. Yeah, I mean, I think even more so when you talk about sexuality and gender,

and I keep kind of thinking about, you know, when you hear Europeans describe what Americans sound like, you know, when you ask like a French person, like what do Americans sound? And talk like this, and it sounds so absurd. And it's not the same but.

Yeah. I think about how pigeonholed you know, we get and how careful we are, particularly around gay people, because I have many gay friends in my life who you wouldn't quote, know they were gay the way you might think you're allowed to say, I've decided that the way you speak is gay

or the way you carry yourself as gay. So it's so interesting, like that specificity that people feel, it's not the same as Europeans imitating how we speak, but I was just thinking about that in terms of, how narrow, you know, we want to kind of keep that lens. I wonder if you can speak a little bit about, you grew up, Neil Patrick Harris, I believe is also from Albuquerque. Am I right?

Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah, Neil and I grew up together, and we had the same age when we were kids. So the one thing I knew about Albuquerque is that's where Neil's family was. Yeah. I think they're so random. Yeah. Yeah.

Can you speak a little bit about what it was like growing up, and you're not old enough so that it was a comfortable. completely different time, but you are old enough that it was a really, really different time. Talk a little bit about the family that you grew up in. I'm also always curious, were there other redheads? Were you the only one? Well, I mean, Albuquerque, New Mexico is a terrible place to raise a redhead. Just that desert sun. I'm feeling the effects of it now. I'm like, what's getting cut out of my skin today? Yeah, it's rough. But also, it was a very, When I was growing up there, first of all, I went to Catholic grade school and high school.

And I was, you know, a closeted gay kid, interested in theater. And I went to these schools that were very sports driven and jock driven. There was no, you know, gay straight alliance. Absolutely not. And it was, it felt very isolating. I didn't have a ton of friends, to be perfectly frank. I sort of spent my days trying to just avoid being bullied. You know, I would spend like the, you know, every kid's favorite time of the day is recess,

like when they just get to like go outside and play for an hour. And that was my worst nightmare. So I was like, this is like, this is a battleground now. Recess was a battleground. Like I had to go out and like find a place to hide and occupy myself for an hour until I could get back into the safety of a classroom where there was an adult supervision, you know, and like I wasn't going to get bullied. So it was terrifying.

That's how I kind of lived day to day. And as I got older, I realized, okay, I can find outlets and people who I connect with outside of school. And so that's when I found community theater. And that's sort of like where I met Neil a little bit during doing, you know, her community theater productions. And by the time I got to high school, I was in a place now where I was like,

okay, I'm sort of fast-tracking this. And by the time I, I just want to get out of high school so I can get to New York and, you know, find my people. And so I, but I was also, like, exploring my own talent and my voice at that point. And I was part of the speech and debate team, which actually did not exist at my high school. I knew that, I knew that speech and debate was something where you can go and, like, do monologues and get awards for them. And so I was like, I want to do that because it's a singular thing. Like, I didn't have to have all cast of people to, like, help me put on a production of little. Abner. I could just do like a monologue from Angels in America and go compete with it on my own and be

completely responsible for the performance on my own. So I kind of independently with the help of like this drama teacher who was sort of like a part-time teacher at the school was like, let's start a speech and debate program. And it was like me and maybe like two other people who did not really even know what it was. And we had this tiny little speech and debate program. And we did really good. And like I went to nationals like on my third year doing Angels in America of all things. Like, which is a very strange play. You know, the strange monologues for like a, you know, it's a 15-year-old kid to be doing like Roy Cohen, you know, very strange.

But I remember coming back from Nationals and my theology teacher of all people was like, I would love for you to share your monologue with the class. And I pulled him aside. I was like, oh, I don't think that's a very good, this is not a good idea. You know, this is a piece about AIDS and sexual. and there's a few cuss words in it. He's like, no, no, I want you to do it. And I did it in front of this class.

I was terrified. And I think some people were a little stunned, but there was a lot of people who came up to me. These are people that had ignored me since first grade that came up to me and were like, you're really talented. Like, that was really impressive. I bet you're going to be on Broadway someday.

And so I do think about that a lot, like having that moment early on where I was like, okay, I'm going to show my voice, even though it's really not much of a platform for me at this moment, I'm going to make a platform. And I'm just going to do what I think I know I do until I can get to New York and actually really buckle down and do the thing I want to do. And so I was really grateful for Mary Beam is her name.

That was the part-time teacher. She was also like a lawyer that worked for my uncle's law firm in Albuquerque. But she came to, she's someone that sort of stepped up and was like, yeah, let's do this. ironically she came to see me and take me out on Broadway and I won a Tony Award for that. So she was like, what a full circle moment for you. It was just, it was very special that she was kind of saw potential in me and was like, okay, I'm going to help this poor pathetic gay kid find a voice in high school at St. Pius the 10th High School in Albuquerque.

Tell me a little bit about your family. Was anyone else artistic or were you the only one? Did you have siblings? My sister danced a bit. and did gymnastics and, like, you know, enjoys musical theater. My brother late in life, you know, he likes to see the things I do, but, you know, he doesn't want to, like, go see Lim as a Rob or anything. He was big into sports.

And my dad was a microbiologist for the state lab, and my mom was an OBGYN nurse. So very, you know, not connected to the arts at all. My mom, I think, she enjoyed seeing theater with me. And I think my dad liked it because he was supporting his kids. I don't think, again, he would be the one to, like, you know, on his own go buy a ticket to Sweeney Todd. But, yeah, they've very, very different backgrounds and lifestyles. My dad, I was really proud of him. When he retired, he continued that work that he was doing as a microbiologist and helped set up

TB labs in Africa and went into some very rural areas of Africa and saw some very, very, you know, grim situations. But was using that time, obviously, to see different parts of the country, but then used the work that he did at the state lab to help try and, you know, bring medication and, and research to these areas that were desperately in need of them. So I was really proud of him for that. I wonder if you can talk a little bit about sort of when you came to the realization that you were different, in this case, different from the kind of cis heteronorm. And I don't ask for gossipy reasons. I ask because I think a lot of people, people's misunderstanding and lack of understanding

about sexuality and gender comes from not hearing people talk about what it's like to just know that you're you. So I wonder if you can speak about sort of when you had that awareness and did you share that with your family and sort of what your journey was? Oh, it came, it trickled in for me. You know, I think from a very early age, I knew I was different. And this even goes back to like, why am I interested in, you know, sitting in my, my bedroom and just listening to Phantom of the opera over and over and over and everyone else is outside playing? Like, I mean, like, that's weird.

It's like, it's very captivating. It's very captivating. I'm devastated. It's closed on Broadway. But I think, you know, it did. It trickled in. And, you know, when you're, when you're super young, I hate to sexualize it because it's not your, you know, you know, you're, you know, you're. Of course you see people on TV who are handsome and you're like,

oh, I'm more attracted to Zach from Saved by the Bell than Jesse from Saved by the Bell. You know, it's like little things like that. Although I think I did have a crush on you, Maya, when I watched you when I watched you when I was like, she's an interesting, quirky person too. And I maybe have a little bit of a, I felt kinship to you. Were you part of a fan club? I probably had like one of those like, pull out posters, you know.

But I definitely, it was something that did trickle in for me. And it wasn't something that I could even really name because I didn't have any peers that I could look to. And there wasn't a lot in pop culture that like signified or like it gave me like a, that were sort of like beacons of light of like, oh, I'm, I, that's something aspirational. even like when I was when Will and Grace first started I was older at that point obviously but and I loved I love that show and I love that there was representation on television but I was like I don't feel like they and here I'm talking like every fan probably talked about modern family but I didn't feel like they represented me but I enjoyed them so much but like I you know I didn't see like oh this is a couple that is like raising a child or that has a career like I saw them as just just like fun gay people. So I was constantly kind of looking for,

I was just always looking for like where I fit. I felt like this puzzle piece. Like the puzzle was done and I was this extra piece that was like, I'm not sure where this goes in. And like they kept trying these places. And I was like, no, not there, not there, not there. And so it just sort of felt like I was just, like the stork dropped me off in the wrong state.

And I was like, okay, now you just have to figure out how to get to where you're supposed to be. It's like every Disney movie, like finding Nemo. Everyone gets lost and trying to find their way back. It's a very lonely thing when you're not, you don't feel like you have that place that feels comfortable. Every chair felt wrong.

That's the kind of way I can describe it. Because it wasn't about like me like pining over people secretly. Although I did like, you know, I would be the, I would tear out like the underwear ads from like my mom's like People magazine. and just like stashed them in a corner somewhere in my closet. Just to look out later, you know. The Antonio Banderas, like, you know, kind of climate. And when did you formally come out?

I guess I came out. Well, it's, I was caught stealing gay porn when I was a teenager. So I feel like, I always felt like that was a pretty solid sign. Like my parents, you know, were called and like they were shown the nature of the material I was stealing. So I sort of feel like, guys. Wait, wait, hold on one second. Yeah. Where, who found it?

School? Priests. Priests. No. So what happened was I had been sort of stealing gay porn for a while and I had hit it in a box in my room. And then this was in my teenage years. And then I got very nervous about it. So I hit it in this alleyway that we had behind our house.

And my dad saw me climbing over this wall with a box. And I'm sure was like, oh, God, he's stashing his drugs that he's selling or something. You know, of course, that's where his mind goes. So he goes to find this box that I stashed away. And it's like, you know, naked men. And so, first of all, I think that's my coming out. They should have, like, called it a day at that. But my dad sort of chose to ignore.

Everyone swept it under the rug. We do that sometimes in our family. And then... Wait, wait, what does that look like? What does it look like? He definitely said, I found this, explain it. And I was like, I don't... I think I said I was like holding onto it for a friend of mine.

You know, like, obviously a lie. But in my dad's mind, he's like, okay, that's enough. I believe that story. Like, you gave me an out. I'm going to take it. Yeah. Like, you can get off the highway at this point, sir, if you want me, he's like, I'll get off the highway. And so then, I don't know, a few months later, I was back at Hastings,

store in Albuquerque, New Mexico. And I was like, I got to steal a few more because I'm out. You know, they were confiscated. And so I put them under my shirt and the metal detector went off. And the shopkeeper, shopkeeper, people can say that, the habitastery of magazines. They, they, like, do you have something in your backpack that might have set it off? And I was like, I got super nervous. And I just showed them. I picked up my shirt. I was like, no. Like with tears in my eyes. I know, isn't this humiliating? It's so sad. And so they took me into a back room.

They actually had a police officer come who, like, stayed with me. They called my parents. My parents came. Not much going on in Albuquerque that this needed a police officer. 100%. Wait, it gets worse. So they showed my parents the nature of the material I was stealing. I remember those words very vividly.

And of course, now, like, my parents had already. known basically more or less that I'd stolen gay porn, but now I'd been arrested for it. So it was like the shame level was like through the roof for them at this point. And we had to go to court. I had to speak in front of a judge. It's like it just kept getting drawn out. No, you didn't. I swear to God.

I was sent to community service. It was a whole thing. It was humiliating. Wait, wait, I have to ask. Wait, I got to stop you one second. Okay, yeah, go ahead. Would this have happened if the nature of the material was different? Because if I were a closeted gay teen, I'd be like, I feel like I'm on trial for being gay.

That was a big part of it. I mean, that was a big part of it for me. I feel like I was mostly being punished for shoplifting. There is a piece of me in hindsight. I feel like if we were in this place now, and it was a kid that age, and they were stealing this material, I'd be like, okay, this is not about shoplifting. This is obviously about something else. Like, let's figure out other avenues on to how to get this person talking to people that they need to talk to because obviously they feel very isolated and very alone, which is what I felt.

I do feel like maybe today it would be different. I truly feel like, I don't know, who knows, maybe I was being made an example of, but I feel like mostly it was because I was actually shoplifting and just the, again, nature of the material that I was shoplifting made it so much worse. I do also remember, like, when I was at the courthouse with my mom, she ran into one of her patients there. And it was like, she had, like, calmed down about it all. Like, she had sort of like stopped being so upset about it. And then, like, that happened. And she was, like, back up to, like, 10.

She's like, how dare you humiliate the family like this? And so it was something that I had so much shame with it because it was obviously enshrouded in this thing. That was, yes, me breaking the law a little bit. a little bit, a lot of it. I mean, it's illegal to shop off, the thing's still today. But when you ask like how I came out, there are these tent poles that sort of feel like, okay, were those coming out moments,

or were they just like traumatic moments before I had to say verbally, I'm gay? I don't know. But like I verbally talked to my parents about it for the first time after I moved to New York. I think I needed to be extricated from New Mexico and in a safe space amongst people I trusted to sort of have that conversation with them over the phone

or through a letter, I think it was. I don't think I was able to talk about it in person. And then it was a few years of them kind of coming to grips with it and figuring out ways for them to deal with it. It was also a time where AIDS was so rampant. I was in New York. I know that they were coming from a place,

of fear for me and miseducation as well. But I first moved to New York. My mom one year sent me a backpack. I needed a backpack. And so for my birthday, she sent me this backpack. And I was going off to rehearsal for something. And so I brought the box with me. I didn't know what was inside.

I brought it to rehearsal. And my cast was like, what's that? It's like, oh, my mom sent this to me for my birthday. Like, well, let's open it. So I opened up the backpack. I'm pulling out all the things in the backpack. And it's like, you know, snacks and different things that I like. And then there's a front compartment and I open it.

And you guys, I swear to God, it's probably 100 condoms. Just a plethora of condoms. Like, these things were going to expire well before, even someone with a healthy sexual appetite would ever be able to use them. And but that's like where my mom was. She's like, I just got a, I got a, he has to be armed with as much, with as many things as possible to like, you know, stave off, like whatever bad things could happen to him in New York because he's gay.

And I get what they were coming from. I truly do. And it was only their concern came from a place of love. And but they had, I think they had more of a process of me being gay and coming to grips with it than I did. So you had, you know, kind of to fast forward, you had the sort of Broadway experience. You eventually had, you know, a holiday. a Hollywood experience that transformed your career. I mean, really, like, it became the thing that,

I mean, who holds an acting job for 11 years? Not many people. Not many people, no. And you're, you and I share an Emmy nomination streak. Yes. Your castmate Julie Bowen, as I remind her, every time I see her, won against me. She was, I think my last loss was to her.

Yeah, my last loss was Ty Barone. Yeah. You did earn a Tony, which I wonder sort of what that win sort of meant. Obviously, nominations are incredible and it's wonderful to be considered anyway. But I wonder if sort of winning a Tony felt for you also very full circle. Incredibly. Obviously, the Emmy nominations, first of all, the very first year that I was nominated for Emmy, it was so far from my mind that that would even be possible.

I was the straight man of a gay couple, meaning like, you know, straight is like comedy. I know you what that means to our listeners. Like he was the flashy one and I was sort of like the one that was dry. I called that the straight man. You know, they're not as fun. Whatever. I think I was fun.

But like, you know, I was not expecting any sort of Emmy love. And so to have that happen was just so wildly unexpected. And it was a nice little run. And, but for me, being someone who just, you know, I mean, I've told you, like, I just adore the theater so much from such an early age. And that's all I really wanted to do. And that community meant so much to me, you know, from the moment of me coming to New York as a 17-year-old kid, you know, that was the community that embraced me and made me feel like I was legitimate and valid and whole. And so when I won that Tony Award, it was 25 years almost to the month that I had been a professional actor, my first job being a show that I did in New York at the Delicourt Theater in Central Park. And that was how I got my equity card.

And 25 years later, I was able to stand in front of this community and accept this award and sort of thank them for being, you know, such a support system to me. And if I would have loved to have won an Emmy award, but like I can only imagine that it would have paled in comparison to that moment of winning a Tony. It just meant so much to me. And your life is also rich in your personal life. I've interacted with your husband many times, pretty much as many times as I've seen you at events.

He's with you. How long have you been partnered and sort of tell us a little bit about your relationship? Yeah. we will have been together 13 years soon, coming up 13 years and we've been, we're celebrating our 10th anniversary

our 10th wedding anniversary this July. Congratulations. And thank you. He's amazing. I met him at the beginning of the modern family run and I think for a lot of people they would think, oh God, why would you want to like

tie yourself down to a relationship at such a crazy moment. Like when the world is your oyster, you could, you know, so many people would maybe want to date you. You could use all those condoms your mother sent you. All those condoms. Just work through those condoms one night at a time, honey.

But, yeah, I think, you know, a lot of people just like, just enjoy this crazy thing that's happened in your life. Why, like, start a relationship right now? But for me, it was, it was the best, most, perfect thing for it because I had someone who sort of, you know, followed me through that entire process, that insane, incredible process. I think about our, you know, Jim's partner Todd,

who has been with Jim since early, early days before any of this stuff happened. And I know how deeply meaningful having Todd by his side for that entire process was. And I just, that's sort of what I feel, but just so grateful that he was there to sort of ground me to that entire experience. And then also on the other side, just be there for me when that wasn't there any longer. Which is also crazy because, you know, for Justin,

you know, you're just saying, like, what actor ever gets to work 11 years? It's just impossible. So when this ended, I had to sort of sit Justin down and like, okay, so this entire time you've been with me, just so you know, none of that's real. As far as me being an actor, like that's all, like that was all just a crazy thing that happened.

Buckle up because here's what you, here's an unemployed actor now. Get ready. Nothing's certain. I'm going to have little spurts here and there. I'm going to go do something for three weeks. This thing's going to fall apart. You just need to wear your thick skin that we've been trying to develop and just push through. It's going to be fine. Mostly I'm going to wear a robe and slippers and be really grumpy. That's right. Exactly. Can you also tell us about your podcast, which sounds like so much fun. And an idea that I wouldn't have thought of, which is such an amazing idea.

Tell us about it. Well, I was, my career, I've been very lucky in my career that I've gotten to do a lot of really weird things that I never thought I would get to do. I feel like you must feel the same way. Like, when you're like, I'm hosting Jeopardy right now, like that is, like, what? That's crazy.

That's crazy. I've had a few moments like that too, but it's so good and it's so perfect. And like, you're like, of course. of course I was in jeopardy. But like I got to be the host of we did a reboot of Extreme Makeover Home Edition. I was the host of it. And I got to like change 10 people's families and like be I was like what Ty Pennington was doing.

He was like building homes. That was me except for office not building homes like he was mostly just like being funny and silly. But like I was like this is something I never would have expected. So this podcast is a perfect example of my career going in this direction that I just never would have anticipated. It was something that was pitched to me by the. this company and I thought, well, you know, why not try something new? And I liked the concept. The idea is that I'm taking, I wrote a cookbook. I love eating. I love eating out. I love going to restaurants. So the concept is that I'm taking good friends of mine and people that I just

admire out to a meal and just having a conversation with them. I feel like the best conversations happen over a meal when you can kind of let your guard down, just be yourself. So it's called dinner's on me, and we've recorded quite a few episodes so far, and they've just been really, really, it's been such a great experience. You know, Julie Bowen was my first guest, and I know her so well, but I was able to sort of, you know, sit down and talk to her and go into places about motherhood and advice that she's giving me about fatherhood and what it's like to, you know, crawl out for my character to be even playing for 11 years.

We've got to really unpack a lot of these things have been feeling, even though we're so close, there was so much I still didn't know about her. And it was just a really, really lovely hour. And I was like, this is the way we're kicking things off. This is going to be a really great experience. I sat down with Jesse Williams and we talked about, you know,

Arbren, and take me out and him trying new things in imposter syndrome, which I was feeling at the time, being a new host of a podcast, and him feeling like he'd never done Broadway before. You know, it's less about like what are you working on now and more about like, let's just talk about the things that are going on in your life and kind of like what we've been doing right now. And it's just been a really great experience.

And then on top of that, going to these amazing restaurants and having great food. And it's been really, really wonderful. Yeah, that's where I'm seeing Jim next week where he's going to. Jonathan, wait, I want to know. Jonathan, what am I wondering about? First of all, that sounds amazing. And I love food as well. And that just sounds really cool.

What am I thinking about? that I also know that the best conversations happen over food and I'm always trying to eat on this podcast and she's getting upset with me.

That's different. That's different. That's different of like I didn't make time or a priority to eat so I'm going to eat in your face. Here's my question.

This is a technical question because with us being remote today you heard at the beginning of our podcast. I know what you're going to ask. How do you do it? How do you record sound in a restaurant? Like, how do you do it? It's not as clean as it is in a podcast like this where we're in controlled environments.

You know, you do hear the ambient noises of the restaurant. We try and go to areas of the restaurant that are a little quieter. On a few occasions, the restaurants open their doors to us off hours. So we have gone when there's actually no one there. Like, for example, I'm having dinner with Jim Parsons. next week for the podcast, and they set up a private room for us, which Jim's going to love. He loves VIP service. Oh, he loves a private.

He loves a private. He loves a private room. But, you know, it's just two microphones on a table, and you hear the waiter come by. You hear us talk about what the specials are. He's a part of it. You get to talk about the food, which is what I wanted. I wanted to feel like you are the third person at this dinner with us. Okay, I have another question.

Yeah, go ahead. I come from an Eastern European family. We're very sloppy, messy, loud eaters. Yeah, mouth sounds. So all the sounds. But here's a question. Do you actually hear you eating? Like, do you eat during the interview, or do you take pauses?

We do eat during the interview. I try not to do like the mouth sounds in the microphone, because that's just like it turns a lot of people off. I did just listen to the episode of Jesse Wood. and he was having this rigatone and he was really enjoying it. Now you hear all that for a little while. You do not think I should be a guest on any show where there's food involved. Well, now I'm absolutely booking you on the show, so I guess just watch you devouring food in front of me.

We're really going to turn your bike up hot, too. There'll be ASMR outtakes. Before we let you go, is there anything else? People should know about what you're doing in life. I know you have a really, really cool website that I'd love for you to talk about. I also am obsessed that you changed the name recently to pronoun. Yeah, yeah. Well, that was something that was a brainchild of my husband, Justin.

We started a foundation called Tie the Knott, and it was a very whimsical. And, you know, low-key, we were just making bow ties, and the sales of these bow ties were going toward fighting, or giving money to the people who are in the trenches fighting for marriage equality. So now we have full federal marriage equality, at least for today. Who knows what tomorrow's going to bring?

But we did decide to rebrand the website and the foundation, and it's now called Pronown. And it's basically we're doing the same work that we were doing before and raising money for people who are fighting for the rights of the entire LGBTQ community. So that's what it is. It's very, very simple. but I love having something that's not just obviously acting work and podcast work,

which I also love doing very much, but being able to give back in whatever a little way I can and just more than anything else, just an opportunity to talk about these issues that are so important and educating people who might not know a lot about it. So, yeah, and again, that's all Justin. I buried a very smart person. And I went to the site and I was poking around.

And it's also, first of all, it's a really beautiful site and adorable babies and children. But I was also really impressed that there's stuff for adults and kids. And it's kind of one, it's one sort of, it's echoes of a similar visual theme that kind of worked their way into different products. But just really fun. And so I encourage people to check that out. We're also new parents. So like we were a lot of the product that is on the website right now,

that we're selling our things for babies and kids. And we really, you know, we love the idea of, obviously we want our children to express themselves and whatever way they want to. But like, you know, when we first told people that we were having a baby, they all wanted us to know, is it a boy or a girl? And we knew, but we really encourage people like

to just get us gentle-neutral things. Because we don't know what we're going to like. We don't know what this kid's going to like. Obviously, when a baby's six months old, that doesn't care what it's wearing. But like I just, I wanted to challenge people to just sort of think outside the box. Maybe your kid Walt Mind did. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So yeah, a lot of the stuff that's on our website right now is kind of a reflection of that kind of, you know, gender neutral. So, yeah. Yeah. When Jonathan and I have kids the same age, separately, though, and I remember when we would ask for gender neutral clothes, people were so offended, you know, 15 and 20. years ago. Like, what do you meet? Like, what? Yeah. Yeah. It's so funny. Just thinking back on that. Jesse Tyler Ferguson, it's been a real pleasure to talk to you. Thank you so much for being part of our breakdown. I am so happy you had me. It's so good to see you. It's my and be all next breakdown. She's going to break it down for you. She's got a neuroscience PhD or two.

One fiction. And now she's going to break down. It's a breakdown. She's going to break it down.