Mayim Bialik's Breakdown - Jonathan Haidt: Childhood Has Been Hijacked

Episode Date: July 30, 2024

The Anxious Epidemic is REVEALED. Jonathan Haidt Exposes the HEARTBREAKING ways our technology is designed to make us Addicted.   Learn how Tech is Ruining Childhood & hijacking all of our ATTENTION.   We're breaking down the SINISTER Evolution of how Smartphones are Ruining Childhood, impacting education, mental health, and even safety...and what we can do about it.   Sharing scientific evidence that traces global mental health collapse directly back to smartphone usage, Jonathan Haidt (Social psychologist, NYU professor, bestselling author) reveals why Gen Z is in CRISIS, including why they're anxious, socially inept, and addicted to technology.   PLUS....is there HOPE? Haidt shares his BOLD plan for collective action to restore a "human childhood"!   Jonathan Haidt also breaks down: - Physical & social causes and symptoms of tech addiction in kids - How losing trust in neighbors & institutions is destroying our children's innocence - Why the devastating impact of shame on kids is worse than you think - Are half-measures enough when it comes to curbing your child's tech use? - Boys vs. Girls Online: How social media algorithms are designed to target and hook our kids - Why free play is essential for development into competent adults - How some level of adversity in childhood leads to critical problem-solving skills in adulthood   Find yourself wondering why it seems impossible to curb your child's screen time? Don't let your kid become a STATISTIC - TUNE IN to MBB now for practical resources to protect their future!   Jonathan Haidt's latest book, The Anxious Generation: https://www.anxiousgeneration.com/book BialikBreakdown.com YouTube.com/mayimbialik Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Young people now are spending between seven and ten hours a day on their phones. Half of all kids say that they're online almost constantly. They have no ability to be present when they are with people. And so this is a huge loss of human experience. 2010 to 2015, teen mental health plummets in all the English-speaking countries. When teenagers move their social lives onto smartphones and social media, they have no more roots, they're not anchored in community, they're not connected to real people as much,

They're not playing outside. They're not moving their bodies as much. They're not getting sunshine. They're not reading books. You take away from all that. And you put them on platforms that have been designed by the most powerful companies in the world who are hiring the best psychologists who study brain development so that they know how to maximally hook kids. And this is why mental health collapses growing up on a stage where it's like the Truman Show,

except that you know the audience is there. And everything you do, people are watching you. And they're either applauding or booing. Everything. You're going to be a very, very different. if everything you do is being evaluated all the time with instant feedback. So these are really, really sick ways to grow up. They all know that if you say one thing that someone takes offense to, there is no limit to how bad this can be for you because it can get picked up in a viral world.

It can go beyond the school. It could become a national thing. And you can want to kill yourself from the blowback of that. Shame makes people want to disappear. Shame makes people want to die. When kids are being publicly shamed, everyone's laughing at them, pointing to them, adding on. Most of those kids, I believe, at least are considering suicide. A third of girls say that they've considered it seriously in the last year anyway. A quarter of American teenage girls say they've made a plan, a specific plan on how they would kill themselves. So suicidal think is now very, very common. Addiction is really serious because they don't have the prefrontal cortex, the executive function, maturity to resist addiction. Symptoms of withdrawal. Anxiety, insomnia, dysphoria, and

irritability. Gen Z employees, they're anxious, they don't take initiative, they don't have good social skills, they don't make eye contact. COVID has retreated, and the kids are not getting better. We now see the wreckage. We see the wreckage in education. And let's just put a disclaimer here. We are not blaming Gen Z. None of this is their fault. All of this is that we took away their normal childhood. We gave them phones and the internet. We thought this was okay. We were completely wrong. It's my and be all next breakdown. She's going to break it down free. you because you know she knows a thing or two. And now she's going to break down.

It's a breakdown. Hi, I'm I'm Bialik. And I'm Jonathan Cohen. And welcome to our breakdown. This is the place where we break things down so you don't have to. Before we break down what we're breaking down, I've heard, we've heard that some people are being unsubscribed

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And yeah, today on the podcast, we have an author and a social psychologist. We're going to be breaking down the Anxious Generation, which is the title of Jonathan Heights book. The Anxious Generation is the generation that was raised with smartphones in their cribs, practically. And we're going to be breaking down what the recent attention to our lack of attention, our lack of playtime, and our increase in mental health challenges, what that has to do with

phones, how we can turn it around, and how kids and teens are not the only ones being affected in really significant ways in terms of mental health, in terms of attention, in terms of body image. We're going to talk about what that means for adults as well. with Jonathan Haidt. He's the Thomas Cooley Professor of Ethical Leadership at NYU's Stern School of Business, and he's written The Righteous Mind, he's written the Coddling of the American Mind,

and The Anxious Generation is a continuation of the coddling of the American Mind. He also writes the After Babel substack, which I highly recommend. And he's been featured in the free press and lots of places talking about the impact of screen time, specifically on girls. specifically on liberal girls.

And he's going to break down really when it actually happened, what didn't cause it, what did cause it and what we can do. This is one of the most important conversations of our time, potentially in one of the most important conversations of 2024, because it starts to uncover the incentives of large organizations that are hijacking our attention. They're increasing addiction. They're increasing depression.

They're increasing suicidal ideation. The stats are unbelievable. And this is not just for people with young kids, but this is for anyone who is exposed to technology, who is spending their time on platforms that are designed to really make us sick in many ways. And we are going to uncover it and talk about how it is reversible.

People can get their attention back. They can sleep better. They can feel less anxious. And we're going to cover it. And lest you think that Jonathan Haidt or Jonathan Cohen are fearmongering here, that's actually not what's going on. The job of a social psychologist is to understand larger patterns. And what has happened over the last, you know, 50 years or so in our culture is unprecedented. And he's going to talk about all the different factors, what we can control and what we can't.

Break it down. John Height, welcome to The Breakdown. Thank you, Ma'am. You're a social psychologist, right? This is sort of what you do. I'm curious if you can talk a little bit about, you're not terribly old, but when you started out becoming a social psychologist,

at that time, can you tell us what you were interested in and what about culture kind of fascinated you in terms of wanting to study it at this level? Because I'm curious what it was like then versus what, our culture has turned into. Yeah. Well, so first of all, I'm 60, which I think is pretty old. But I'm glad to see that you think that I don't look that old.

When I started graduate school at the University of Pennsylvania in 1987, originally to study cognitive psychology and the psychology of humor, that's my original idea. I really didn't know what the hell I was doing. I just wanted to somehow be a professor. And just by Susan. a flukes of which advisors I happen to talk to. I really hit it off with one who studied thinking and decision-making, Jonathan Barron, and he had a side interest in moral thinking.

I had written about morality and free will for my senior essay in college. So I decided to study morality with him. And then I met an anthropologist who studied how everything varies across cultures, especially morality. So Alan Fisk was a brilliant cultural psychologist. So I just ended up. By the time I was done with grad school in 1992, I had picked morality as my focal topic. I study morality and how it varies by cultures and how it develops from children onward. That's what I studied. And it was a very fortunate choice of topics because morality or moral psychology is kind of like half of the operating system of society. So anything that involves people, especially people who are having any kind of

or misunderstanding, like moral psychology can help you understand what the hell's going on. So I ended up looking at how politics is basically like culture, like left and right, we're becoming like two separate cultures. So anyway, that's how I sort of got into the study of morality. And later on we'll get to, you know, why am I studying adolescent mental health? Like that was a turn that happened in the 2010s. But to answer your question about universities, you know, there was never. a golden age when they were perfect. There were always critiques from the inside, but something really,

really changed in 2015 and things are really different since then than they were, say, in 2012. And that's what my book, The Colleen of American Mind was about. When I graduated from college in 85 and then when I went to grad school in 87, I thought, wow, they're paying me to learn. You know, in a PhD program, you often get a, you know, you get a stipend, you don't pay tuition, you teach. And I felt like a kid in a candy shop. And I thought, there's all these brilliant people here, all these brilliant professors and all these people passing through giving talks.

And it was really, you know, I felt like a kid in a candy shop. And, you know, there was politics. And almost everyone's on the left. But it was not overwhelming the way it became after 2015. So I'm happy to talk about what happened to universities because that's a whole, that's a whole book. And it's related to what happened to the rest of society. And it's related to what happened to the kids.

So actually, yeah, it's all relevant. connects. I think, you know, your work has just shown us the unintended consequences of good intentions and then some bad intentions underneath, you know, that maybe we missed warning signals. These larger companies have too great of profit incentive to really look at any of the risks. And, you know, we really need to step in now. So I would, you know, I'm going to throw it back to you to say, why don't you start to lead us through and for people who haven't really understood what happened, like start to walk us through that.

I'll tell you what, why don't I give you the big picture of the book, but I'll give it in a way that answers your quest that kind of shows how a bunch of things are connected. So the story of the book, The Anxious Generation, the great rewiring of childhood is causing an epidemic of mental illness.

The story of the book is basically a tragedy in three acts. And the first act, which I only talked a little bit about in the book, like we only realized this, especially after we've turned in the manuscript. Act one is the loss of community. And in the United States, we had enormous levels of social capital coming out of World War II. There are times of cohesion in society and there are times of dissolution. So, you know, the 40s and 50s and into the 60s were times of extraordinary cohesion and social trust,

very high social trust. Of course, there's all kinds of political chaos and activism in the 60s and 70s. But even still, people mostly trust their neighbors all the way into the 70s. But it begins declining a lot. And Robert Putnam wrote a very famous book about this called Bowling Alone. And so this is Act 1. It doesn't seem to have anything to do with adolescence yet. But as part of Act 1, we lose trust in our neighbors, but we also get television and air conditioning.

And before television and air conditioning, people sat outside a lot, like especially in the summer, like life in a neighborhood was you're on your front porch, you're visiting people, you're, you're eating outside. And both air conditioning and television move people out of the public space or the neighborhood and into their living room with a TV is the hearth and they're comfortable in their air conditioning. And so happiness isn't going down, but social capital is. We begin to trust each other less. Everything gets weaker. People don't bother joining community clubs, rotary club, all that sort of stuff, begins to decline in the 70s.

is, Putnam says. And he says, very clearly, television is the second biggest factor. The biggest factor is the loss of the greatest generation. The people who remember World War II were stamped into them, you know, patriotism, work together. So this is Act 1. Act 2 begins in the early 1990s. Act 2 is the loss of the play-based childhood. Sorry, can we just, I want to pause for a second because this feels, this feels really, really significant

because it already is sort of starting, you know, I'm hearing that the voice, mainly of my 18-year-old, being like, that didn't really matter. Like, everything changes. This is, sorry, I don't mean to use his voice. And that's actually not what he sounds like, but in my head it is. But I think that this is, I think it's important to sort of, you know, underscore this because this is how things happen. is it snowballs and it's never just one thing. It's a lot of things, right? That's right. That's what's so exciting about being a social scientist. You know, people sometimes say, you know, we have a phrase, it's not rocket science, but actually rocket science is actually really easy.

That's right. You have to be really good in math, but if you're really, really good in math, like you can figure out exactly where the rocket's going to go. And in the social sciences, we cannot do that. And we will never, ever be able to do that. and Jonathan, you're a futurist. I'm sure you think about like chaos theory and the fact that all these interacting variables. Anyway, so yeah, and the social sciences, we have to speak with a lot of asterisks,

and we can speak about general trends, and we have to always say we can't predict the future. I'm a big fan of Phil Tetlock. He has a book called Super Forecasters. Even experts can't predict the future much better than a monkey throwing darts at a yes, no question. So this isn't about predicting the future. per se, but we can talk about trends and we can talk about some variables that change that are really, really important. And being able to trust your neighbors and being able to trust your institutions, boy, are those important. And when you have that, you have a good country. And when you

don't have that, you have a country in decline. And also, and before you go on to the next point, like I like to say, I grew up in the 1940s in the Bronx, even though I grew up in Los Angeles in the 1970s and 80s. But we did not have a huge television culture. I mean, I grew up on like a lot of, you know, comes because people do. But I never saw my mother sit down and watch TV ever, ever, ever, ever. And because she was always working around the house. She was always cooking and cleaning and like helping us with homework. My dad was a public school teacher and we would watch Faulty Towers or Time Bandits if it came on. That was the only thing that my dad would be like everyone's or sports, right? But we would take a walk almost every night after dinner. We would sit on the stoop.

Now, was this a Jewish community and Orthodox Jewish community? What would tell me out of the community? Yeah. So my mother was raised Orthodox. my parents are from the South Bronx. So they come from a very specific, but not religious community. But there was absolutely, I would say, an ethnic cultural component

to this notion of you sit on the stoop, and I see it. I see it in black communities. I see it in brown communities. So I grew up, like you sit on the stoop, you talk to your neighbors, we would play in the street

until the sun went down. I don't think I was the only one. But that was when I talked to my kids about what's missing when they're staring at their street, screens, there's this notion of like that culturally, this first step, that really shifted things. Yeah, that's right. That's right. And so your son is free to say, you know, mom, things change. And that's true. Technology changes. Overall, prosperity increases, which is great. Health increases, which is great.

Our ability to communicate increases. You know, all these things are great. But we often miss sociological outcomes that no one's keeping track of. And social capital is a big one. So I'll go on with the story because it links to what you just said. Act two of the tragedy is the loss of the play-based childhood. And it's what you were just describing. You're not being supervised by your parents. The old idea, until the 90s, the old idea was, parents are busy. Kids, get out of here.

Get out of my face. Go out in the street. And the two things that people always say, I always hear this. Either don't come down, don't come back until the streetlights come on. That's one thing that people said. The other was don't come back until dinner. The third one was don't come back, don't come back unless you're bleeding and needs to go to the hospital. Okay, there you go.

Can you imagine a parent saying that today? I mean, you'd be, you know, you'd be thrown in jail for that for child neglect. So anyway, my point is, and actually, what were you born, if I may ask? I was born in 1975 and also 1941. Yeah, right. Okay. So you're like slightly late Gen X. Like you're like very much Gen X.

And I have a brother who's four years older. And so I picked up on a lot of, like, I did whatever he, I listened to what he? he did. So I have a little, a slightly older, you know, demo for a lot of my cultural references, because I just wanted to be born in 1972. My M. Bialx Breakdown is supported by Superpower. We all know the feeling of leaving a doctor's office and kind of feeling like we didn't get anything out of the experience that was useful. Maybe they're like, you're fine. Drink more water. There's no real data. There's no game plan. This has happened to me many, many times, especially on the perimenopause journey.

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And after you sign up, they'll ask how you heard about them. Make sure to mention my and Bial, it's breakdown, to help support the show. I grew up mostly in the 70s. You grew up in the 80s. There was a huge crime wave going on. Life was much safer before the 60s, and life is much safer since the 1990s. So you and I grew up at a time when there were real dangers. And kids, you know, I grew up in a suburb of New York City that, you know, nobody got mugged. But in New York City, all the kids played outside. And at some time, occasionally it was pretty rare, but occasionally you would get mugged. I mean, it was just a thing. Like somebody would say, give me your money. You say, okay. So there were some real dangers. but everyone went out and play. Because you have to, that's what kids do. And in the 90s, in this second act of the tragedy, in part because we had lost trust in our neighbors, and in part because cable TV was now bringing us constant news reports

about the occasional kid who is kidnapped. It's extremely rare that there's an actual kidnapping, like by a stranger. And they're bringing this constant reports about scandals in which strangers had molested children sexually. For example, in the Catholic Church, and the Boy Scouts, some of those were real, and others, like, in daycare centers,

those were not real. That didn't happen. The point is, in the 90s, even though the world's getting amazingly safe, the crime rave is ending, the Cold War is ending, peace on earth, no more nuclear. I mean, the 90s was an incredible decade, but we stopped letting our kids out to play.

This is really important because kids need the kind of childhood that you just described or that I had. And, you know, if you fall down and you scrape your knee and you're bleeding a little bit, like you wouldn't dream of going home. You don't want to stop the play. Now, occasionally it happens. Someone is injured enough.

You have to knock on someone's door and say, hey, can you call my mother or something? But that's very rare. But you could do it because you trusted your neighbors. So we take away free play. Now, kids must play. They need to play. Where mammals, all mammals play.

But an interesting thing happens during this period in the 90s. As we're pulling them indoors, something new comes in, and that's the internet. And so I remember first seeing a browser in 1994, and it was absolutely miraculous. You could just ask any question and you get the answer instantly. I mean, people have dreamed about this for thousands and thousands of years, the godlike power of omniscience. So we were all just mesmerized by the internet and it was and is fantastic, incredible.

And the kids were fine. Some bad stuff happened on it. But the millennials who grew up with the internet, they're fine. They turned out fine. A lot of them learned to program. They learned about computers. They started companies. Some of those companies are doing terrible things.

But anyway, the point is, the millennials were an amazing generation. Every generation makes fun of the one after. But the millennials are successful, creative, they travel the world. They're doing things. They don't like to make phone calls, though, and talk to customer service agents. Oh, okay. Just wait until you see Gen Z. So, yes, because they grow up texting.

But their mental health is fine. And we all think the internet's amazing. Okay, so now that's Act 2, the loss of the play-based childhood. But it's okay because now the kids have the internet. They can grow up online. They have screens. that entertains them. And we think this is okay.

And at first it was okay. Right. And if I can also just kind of underscore this, like play, as we know it, that's also, I mean, if you want to like kind of, if we want to sort of tip our hat to the mental health conversation, one of the things that I most lament

about the way my children are, you know, and I don't just blame my children, by the way. Like, by all intents, like, by all assessments, we don't have it as bad as I know some parents are struggling with. but what they don't do is move their body every day for many hours, because that's a huge component of play. So obviously, and we could talk just about play if we wanted to

and about, you know, the social engagement that involves in the negotiations and the lack of, you know, kind of parental supervision and how important it is for children to, you know, figure things out on the, on their own. And also Jonathan, I can't speak for Jonathan, but I raised my kids with sort of the Rye philosophy, the, you know, sort of like, what's that? It's basically, like, to some extent, let them figure it out, meaning do not constantly intervene, allow toddlers to tussle a bit. They generally figure things out if no one's being hurt or oppressed,

not to constantly narrate, which, again, Yeah. So I was one of the only parents I knew who didn't constantly narrate the world to my children. And my children also spoke very late, and people were like, that's because you kept breastfeeding them and didn't talk to them. But for whatever reason. But anyway, so Rye philosophy. that's R-I-E, you know, kind of was that notion.

But what is missing, if you do not play, a huge component, which we know is critical for mental health, is moving your body, you know, shifting that, like, metabolic level. And so for me, this is, and obviously we had an obesity problem since, I mean, we had Johan Harri on. He really feels like the 70s was the tipping point. Yeah. Yeah.

But that's an important notion of what happens when you lose that kind of, of play and move to the computer, you're not moving your body. I was always moving my body. That's right. You're also not getting sunshine. It turns out sunshine is much more important than we thought. I just read something in the Atlantic about how we thought vitamin D conferred all these advantages. But actually, it's the sunshine more than vitamin D. Andrew Huberman is always talking about. I was just going to say, Huberman telling me to look at the sun when I wake up. That's right. Look at this. I know. I look at it. I never look. I mean, I look around it. I look a little below it. I stare dead at it.

I just stare straight at it and say, let's see what happens. I would just do it with one eye, so you have one in reserve in case Huberman is wrong. But right, this is very important. When kids start doing something five or ten hours a day, anything, that's going to push out everything else. I mean, if you take five to ten hours a day out of anyone's day, there's not, everything else has to give. And so time outside, time with, you know, time with other kids, time with parents. everything has to give reading people. You know, kids began reading a lot less.

No one reads anymore. That's right. That's right. So that begins going down with the early internet. And so the early internet, there's no high speed data. So there's like no video. You know, you can, you know, you can communicate with people. You can find all kinds of stuff.

There are some rudimentary games. But it's not so engaging as it's about to become. You've still got to buy your porn at the 7-Eleven. Yeah, that's right. Although you could find ways to download static images of porn. You couldn't get video. but you could get static images. And all this, again, the millennials turn out fine.

Okay, so this brings us to Act 3, which, again, builds on what you just said about what you're losing. So Act 3 is the arrival of the phone-based childhood. And when I was coining terms, I kind of meant to plan, like, there's carbon-based life. I used to love Star Trek. So occasionally they'd find a planet with Silicon-based life, which is like totally incompatible with carbon-based life.

Only spatula. Spatula. Only what? Spatuletul? What are you talking about? You know, like medical grade silicone spatula. Oh, yeah, yeah. Right, right. Right. That's right. So, so, so just, I'll just walk people, walk you through the incredible transformation of human life that happens between 2010 and 2015. And we'll focus on teenagers. So if you were born in 1990, you are 22 when Instagram really becomes popular, which is, 2012 is when Facebook buys Instagram. So 2012 is really the tipping point for a lot of reasons. If you're born in 1990, you're a millennial. You're 22 before you go into this whirlpool of social comparison and everything else that we know about the mind. You're 22.

You're done with puberty. But what if you were born in the year 2000? Now you're Gen Z, which is 1996 and later, birth years 1996 and later. If you're born in year 2000, you're seven when the iPhone comes out, but very few teenagers have an iPhone then. You're nine when social media goes super viral. That is, social media before was much, calmer. It was just, I connect to you, you connect to me.

They were social networking systems. It was fun. 2009, you get the like button, the retweet button, the share button. Everything is now about virality in the news feed. So social media becomes insane. The features come in 2009, but it's really more 2011, 12, 13, when it really goes insane. And now you begin to get global cancellations. Justine Sacco was the first global person who got canceled on a plane before she landed. That wasn't possible in 2008, but it was common by 2015. So if you're born in 2000, in 2010, you probably didn't have a phone at all, but if you did, it was a flip phone.

And, you know, kids began getting flip phones. In high school, of course, they all had flip phones. But in middle school, maybe some kids began to have a flip phone. But, you know, you couldn't spend eight hours a day on it. It was really just to, you could text and you could call. That was pretty much it. There was a level of laboriousness to it, which I sort of appreciate. because when texting, I remember when you used to have to hit the letter three times to get to the third letter on the thing.

So like everything took longer, which meant, it was somewhat of a deterrent. And I, and I, my kids were born in 2005 and 2008. And, you know, I was starting to sort of get back into a little bit of acting when they were little. And I remember the day that my manager said, I cannot have you not reachable when you're at the park with your kids. because I need you to be able to receive auditions, script. And that was when she said, and I had held out. She's like, it's really time. Like, it's time you have to do it.

And I can tell you, and I'm sure you're not surprised, that was the moment that my life as a parent changed forever. From that moment on, I was never able and have never been able. They are 15 and 18. I have never been able to truly separate myself from the accessibility of other people having access to me. So they have shared me. They have shared me with that device for their whole, pretty much their whole lives. And when they say, Mama, you're always on your phone.

Mama, you tell me to get off my phone. And also, I've placed a lot of limits. I'm off social media now. Like, I just am. I don't even lie about it anymore. So I've made changes, but, you know, when I'm sending my, my oldest off to college, it's like I feel the need to purge myself of this dirty fact, which he doesn't listen to this. But the fact is my mental health has been compromised because my attention has been divided. And I am an addict for that accessibility.

That's right. So what you said illustrates so many principles in the book, so many principles of what's going on. there's a beautiful haunting phrase from Sherry Turkle at MIT. She says, because of our devices,

we are forever elsewhere. And what that means, obviously, is we evolved to be with people and we want to hang out with our friends and we want to be with

our family and we want to be with our lover. And those are the physical embodied people that we interact with. And as you said, the flip phone,

there was an obstacle to doing it. You couldn't, you didn't, you could just use it as a tool to be with your people. Like you'd use it to say, I'll see you at 3 o'clock. And it's a tool to connect, to actually connect in person. But the smartphone now makes us so accessible, it makes it so easy to communicate. Now that there's dictation, now it's actually, you know, it's really fast to type. So the smartphone becomes an alternative to being with people, not a tool to be with people.

And now we get young people now are spending, numbers are between seven and 10 hours a day on their phones. Now that includes, that includes video games, but the point is screen, you know, screen time, the newest numbers are around five hours a day just of social media. That's the average. Half of all kids say that they're online almost constantly, meaning they're always monitoring something. They're on one of the platforms. So a lot of our kids basically have given away all of their attention. They have no attention to do anything. Everything is boring. Right. Everything is boring. Everything is boring. Everything off the phone is boring. It's slow. Yep. And, um, and, um, and they have no ability to be present when they are with people.

And so this is a huge loss of human experience. This is a huge loss of social capital and trust. And just as television pulled people away from the streets. So then our neighborhoods change, our streets change. In the same way, phone-based life pulls us away from the people around us. So we might as well just be walking around with goggles. We might as well not even bother going out. So anyway, there's this profound transformation.

I say between 2010 and 2050. The other things we need to add here are that in 2010 is when you get the first friend-facing camera on the iPhone 4 or 5, I forget which one. And then Samsung copies it right away. So, and then you also get high-speed. Internet is really coming in in this time. So in 2010, teenagers still had a recognizablely human childhood where they used a flip phone and slow data plans to text each other to get together. In 2015, that's not happening anymore. In 2015, 70 or 80% have a smartphone.

Most people have high-speed internet. Everyone's got a front-facing camera. Everyone has Instagram or other platforms. And now we have the fully phone-based childhood. And it's exactly in that period, 2010-to-2015, when teen mental health plummets, not just in the United States. It plummets in the same way at the same time in all the English-speaking countries. We're looking into Europe.

It plunges overall. It drops in Europe. There's some variations. Eastern Europe, not so much. Northern Europe, much more so. But the point is this is not just an. American story. This is a developed world story. When teenagers, especially in very free countries, when they move their social lives onto smartphones and social media, it pulls them away from,

they have no more roots, they're not anchored in community, they're not connected to real people as much, they're not playing outside, they're not moving their bodies as much, they're not getting sunshine, they're not reading books. You take away from all that and you put them on platforms that have been designed by the biggest companies, most powerful companies in the world who are hiring the best psychologists and who have seminars internally. We know this from Francis Howland, the Whistleblower,

who study brain development so that they know how to maximally hook kids when they own childhood. Oh, and by the way, we can't sue them. We can't sue them for whatever they do to our kids. Congress gave them special immunity. We can't sue them for whatever they show to our kids. So we had this insane legal and legal environment in which companies,

these few companies especially, can run roughshod over our kids in their competition to hook the kids before another company does. And this is why mental health collapses between 2010 and 2015 in many, many countries around the world. At least that's my claim in the book. I can back that up with experimental evidence as well, although that's much harder. That's very rare. Is that complex enough for you? Jonathan, is that showing enough connections between things?

I mean, it's a fascinating weave of historical plot points that at the time we didn't realize were happening. And I want to get to more of the mental health stats because I think people are still grappling with just the suffering that many of the kids are experiencing. But when you talk about the rewiring of childhood and you talk about the lack of play-based experiences, I'm not sure that everyone really understands the huge downstream ramifications of that. And one of those things is about building resilience and cooperation that happens

and how that impacts leadership in the future. Miami and I had a funny conversation. Yesterday, my son forgot his socks. He went to the beach with a camp he was at, and he left his socks there. and he had to go in the afternoon and play tennis. And of course, he texts me because I'm like seven minutes away. He's like, can you bring me another pair of socks? And Mime is like, I wouldn't bring him a pair of socks.

And I was like, well, I'm seven minutes away. And, you know, his, he's going to spend the whole day in tennis shoes without socks. His feet are going to get ripped up. And then I thought about it this morning. And I was like, when I was his age, I lived in Toronto, Canada, I was rollerblading, carrying a hot, hockey net over my head for half an hour to go play with a group of boys that we would then play until our legs were so sore. It was dark out and I would like catch the last bit of daylight

carrying this thing back. Sometimes in so much pain that I was like, am I going to leave this hockey net here? And like that inner battle of like, am I going to get myself home? There was no one to save me. And when I face adversity now, I don't necessarily connect it to those times. But there were enough times in my childhood where I was in situations I didn't know how to get myself out of and I had no one to help. The other thing that I have noticed happens, not just with Jonathan and his son, but in general is these kids, I hate to say this generation, but kids who are sort of phone-centered like this, their ability to tap into creative ideas for resources is literally next to nothing. So this is a tennis camp. I would not be.

be surprised if they have like some socks on standby, but it would involve a 16-year-old saying to a grown-up, hey, I've got a problem. Can someone other than my dad help me fix it? And to me, it's like, I see it with my kids too. If the solution is not directly there or if I'm not providing it, it doesn't exist. They'd rather go hungry, right, than have to think of, oh, can I go to the cupboard in a house that has a shit ton of food that I like to eat? And and that's good for me. That is easy to assemble. No, they'd rather literally not eat

than they're grumpy. It's six o'clock and everyone's miserable because no one fed themselves because mama didn't do it. Now I want to hear your answer. Okay. Yeah. No, that's right.

So there's so much going on in free play that leads people to do. Free play is essential for kids to develop the ability to face obstacles and overcome them, to have conflicts and resolve them, to face a lot of, lack like, oh, we don't have a net or we don't have any food or it's really hot and we're all thirsty. What are we going to do?

And when we were growing up, you would sometimes have to ask strangers for things, like directions. You always had to ask strangers for directions. We all got used to saying, excuse me, can you tell me how to get to, you know, the library? We all grew up talking to strangers. But in a world where kids are told, stranger, never talk to strangers. Here's a phone. Always be on your phone. You have everything you need is here.

I found that in my own children, even though I've tried to really make. minimize. I tried to put all kinds of limits. But, um, so I had my, my, my, my daughter took a train to New Jersey. She's, she's 14 now. She took a train to visit a friend in New Jersey. And, and I'd encourage her to take, to do it entirely on her own. Like, let's talk through it, you know, you go to Penn Station where it's a direct subway line. Here's how you find the train. And she didn't want to do it entirely on her loan the first time. It was a big step. Maybe it'll too big. So I said, okay, I'll go with you. I'm going to still

go 10 yards behind you and I'm not going to talk to you. Um, and it was, we got, she gets to Penn Station gets roughly in the right area, doesn't know where to buy the ticket. She's looking around, doesn't know where to buy the ticket. I say, ask someone, ask someone. She will not do it. She will not do it because that's so awkward to ask someone. And ultimately, she ultimately did find it and she looked back to me triumphally like, see, I didn't have to ask anyone. But there's a real, I hear lots of stories like this, that they're afraid to talk to people in person because there's no texting someone, you know, that's effortless, no problem. But to talk to a person,

much harder. And, you know, I teach in a business school. So I talk to people in the corporate world a lot. And I was asked them, how are your Gen Z employees doing? And they almost always say it's really bad. It's really hard. You know, they're anxious. They don't take initiative. They don't have good social skills. They don't make eye contact. And let's just put a disclaimer here. We are not blaming Gen Z. None of this is their fall. All of this is that we took away their normal childhood. We gave them phones and the internet. We thought this was okay. We were completely wrong. It was no. research on this. The everything changed between 2010 and 2015. Even as late as 2011, 2012, we still thought the internet is amazing. It's going to take down dictatorships. The Arab Spring,

the internet's the best thing, and smartphones and social media. So we really didn't know. We began to get an inkling that something's going really wrong in late 2010s. And that's when I got into this, into really doing the research on this. Like, you know, in the coddling the American mind, that book was all about overprotection. And we speculated. We had like two pages on like, Now, you know, the timing is such that social media, you know, early Facebook, you know, this might have affected Gen Z. But we don't know. We don't know. And then COVID comes in and we all get confused. And it's hard to make any conclusions about teen mental health and smartphones from during COVID. But I think it's only because now COVID has retreated and the kids are not getting better. We now see the wreckage. We see the wreckage in education. The kids know a lot less. Their educational scores are down. And it turns out it's not since 2020. But since 2012, scores began dropping. Educational attainment began dropping around the world after 2012.

Because that's when kids no longer could sit in a class and be bored, but sometimes listen to the teacher. You don't have to be bored anymore in class. You have your phone. So you're always entertained. All during the school day, you've got something to do. And very little of it is listening to the teacher. Well, and even if teachers are limiting your access to it,

as we've talked about what happens to a grown woman, you know, like you're you're never really there you're never really there even if you're not on it because it is always about what's coming next and what I've noticed and I wonder if you can speak to this a little bit um it seems like um we we are all kind of framing the real world as if it's a phone meaning I think part of the resistance in speaking to people is that the fear of rejection or saying something that isn't likable is a threat that feels as if we are literally operating in an interface of the phone, that everything is determined by likes. What do I look like? Am I wearing the right thing? It's like everything that is on that little screen seems to be

getting projected. And honestly, I see it with adults, I think even more than I see it with kids. I wonder if you can speak a little bit to that, not just how it affects kids, but adults as well. Yeah. Yeah, so let's talk about a couple of things. Let's imagine a few childhoods. One is the kind of free-range childhood we've been talking about, which is basically filled with you and a few friends, working things out, having adventures,

getting into conflicts, resolving the complex, etc. That's historically what childhood was mostly like. Another childhood is you grow up in a minefield, like literally a mindfield, like your entire life, everyone is in a minefield, and a lot of kids get their legs blown off. You're not going to be running around frolicing very much. You're going to basically be like, so careful about everything

because people are getting their legs blown off. That's the Mindfield childhood. The third childhood I want you to imagine is growing up on a stage where it's like the Truman Show, except that you know the audience is there. And everything you do, people are watching you. And they're either applauding or booing, everything.

Now, this is going to, again, as with the Mindfield, this is going to really, really change. You're going to be a very, very different person if everything you do is being evaluated all the time with instant feedback. You can see what the audience says about you. So these are really, really sick ways to grow up. But I would say that the phone-based childhood is both of the latter two.

So one thing that I hear from a lot of college professors, I don't have this problem so much in my class because I'm talking very explicitly about this. I teach a course on flourishing here at NYU Stern. And we're really talking about exactly these issues. But one thing I hear from many other professors is they can't get their students to disagree with each other. They can't get them to say anything controversial. And that's in part, I believe, because they've all. all grown up in a minefield. They all know that if you say one thing that someone takes offense to,

there's no limit to how bad this can be for you because it can get picked up in a viral world, superviral world. It can get picked up. It can go beyond the school. It could become a national thing. And you can want to kill yourself from the blowback of that. I mean, like literally. From the shame. Shame makes people want to disappear. Shame makes people want to die. When kids are being publicly shamed, everyone's laughing at them, pointing to them, adding on, most of those kids, I believe, at least are considering suicide. A third of girls say that they've considered it seriously in the last year anyway. A quarter of American teenage girls say they've made a plan, a specific plan on how they would kill themselves.

So suicidal think is now very, very common. It's a normal part of being an American girl. And I think it's in part for this reason. So it's both the growing up on stage and the growing up in a minefield. Of course, that shapes you in really bad ways. We've got to stop that. And that's why what I'm calling for is like, let's stop. with this stuff about, well, each kid is different. Well, there's no, you know, I can't tell you

an age at which your kid can have a smart phone. Some may be ready for it at age eight. Some maybe not till 16. I think what's kind of new about my book is that I have not been studying adolescent development my whole career. I don't come at this saying each kid is different. Let's tailor it for each kid. Let's, you know, let's meet the kids where they are. I say, you know, if the kids are playing on the train tracks, I'm not going to meet them where they are. I'm going to take them off the train tracks first, and then we can do everything else. And so because I come in as a social psychologist, and I'm totally attuned to the social forces, I'm totally attuned to the fact that this is a collective action problem, that the reason why the kids are trapped,

the reason why they have to be on TikTok is because everyone else is and everyone's talking about the TikTok videos. They have to watch. The reason everyone has a smartphone, even by age 10 now, most kids are getting a smartphone by then, is because the parents felt like they're in a trap. Each kid says, Mom, I'm the only one. I have to have a smartphone. The kids are laughing at me for my phone watch or for not having a smartphone.

So I came at this from the point of view of a social psychologist saying, regardless of individual variation, the only way out of this is collective action with clear norms. And the clear norms that I propose, there are four of them in the book. Maybe I'm jumping the gun here, but I'll just list them now. We can come back to them later.

But is no smartphone till 14, no social media till 16, phone-free schools, and a lot more independent free play and responsibility in the real world. With those four norms, we can roll back the phone-based childhood, not all the way to where it was, you know, when we're talking about in the 70s and 80s, but we can restore what would look like a kind of a humane version of childhood where kids are not in a minefield, they're not on a stage, they are getting together, unsupervised, to do things,

like walk down to a store and get ice cream. Like, that's a good thing for nine-year-old kids to be doing. And right now they're not allowed to do that. If a nine-year-old kid tries to do do that. Some, some neighbor could call the police. The police come. They, they, they call in child protective services. It's a complete nightmare when this happens to your family. So we've got to change all of that so that eight, nine year old kids can have a sort of a human childhood again. I want to ask why, I mean, there's a, there's a phrase that I'm pulling from, it's from the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous, that, you know, half measures avail us nothing, right? I've tried, and my kids, just so you have a point of reference, my kids got smartphones for their

bar mitzvah, which is 13. Age 13 is better than most. So that's what I said to my ex-husband. I felt it was too early. I felt it was unnecessary. And everybody knows that, including my children. But as a divorced parent, it's like, you don't want to be on that side of that conversation. So I stated and I tried to put.

So basically, you know, so I've got. I've got a 15 and 18 year old now. So for the past five years, for the older one, I have been trying to do half measures. And I have tried, like, again, I'm going to start to cry again. I've tried to cut this cheesecake every way you can cut it. I've tried to cut it in slivers. I've tried to take off the top. I've tried to take off the bottom. I've tried to, like, make it in muffin tins so that it's smaller bits of cheesecake. I've done everything. that I have known and a tremendous amount of my relationship with my children is talking about this. And I don't appreciate that, meaning I, in many cases, have given up because the strain

is so great on our relationship. And especially my younger one is a little bit different. He's not really interested in social media with other humans, but he likes it for looking at videos and things. And a lot of times it's educational stuff. A lot of times, like, it's stuff like that. But to me, you know, and of course I get to pull the neuroscientist card. Like, it's not really categorically different, meaning it's about time, meaning it's about a time commitment. It's about an intention commitment. It's about if here's what's not happening when you do whatever you're doing on it commitment. But I really feel like the reason that I'm encouraged by you, by your book, and by some of the recent conversation

that, you know, I believe has come from the work that you've done, which is a tremendous contribution you have made to our society. I really, I cannot, I cannot overstated enough. But, you know, we're talking about bands in L-A-USD, you know, here where I live in Southern California.

So these are exciting things, but I wonder if you can explain what is going on that it seems impossible to put any real limits around it. I've tried the apps. Like, it is just a nonstop fight. That's right. So there's so much in what you just said.

I'll start with you just crystallized what parents all over the world, all over the developed world are feeling. Since about 2013 to 2015, since then, family life all over the developed world has been a fight over screen time. And we're all like, what the hell happened to? Like, why is this happening? I don't want to be doing this. So that's why things are changing so fast now, because we're we're going to.

we're all in the same boat. Most people have either given up or they feel it's impossible. And my message is, yeah, it's really hard to do this. If you're acting alone, if you're the only one, it's really hard to do this. But if we act together, if you just team up with a few of the parents

of your kids' friends, if you get the whole school to go phone-free, if you do it in a collective way, you can break out of a collective action trap. So I really want to recognize for everybody listening who has kids, we've all been sort of sucked into this place, which is a trap. It's a trap. It's very hard to escape from. We have to do it collectively.

And that's why things are changing so fast all around the world. In Britain, they're actually ahead of us. Parents are rising up, joining together, signing pledges. And groups are breaking out in Australia, Brazil, Germany, all over the place. If you go to anxious generation.com, that's the website for my book. So especially if you're not in the United States, go down, you'll find, look for a line, a page on aligned organizations. We have a map showing all these groups popping up. So There's a parents' rebellion, and there's a kid's rebellion. Gen Z doesn't like this either. Okay, but now I want to go back,

you said something very interesting about half measures. And, you know, my mind is such that if you say something, if you assert something, I'll sort of take the opposite of them, just think, like, is the opposite true? And when you say, you know, what, half measures get us nowhere? Avail us nothing. Yeah. Avail us nothing.

And I was thinking, I don't know. Sometimes half measures get you halfway there. And, you know, like, let's say for exercise. I would much rather make a half measure towards exercise than give up. Because doing half of what I should do is like pretty good. And so then I realized as you were talking, I was thinking, ah, the key is addiction. If it's an addictive process, then you have to go all or nothing.

And so, and that's why sleepway camps are so successful. Because a sleepway camp, like if you send your kid for four weeks to a sleepway camp, first of all, people, sleepway camps are amazing. never ever send your kid to a sleepway camp that doesn't have a very strict phone policy because this is the best. His phone is in his bedroom and he is not. Great. I'm like, I'm in heaven. That's great. And what that means is that on the bus, on the bus out to the sleepway camp, your kid was talking to other kids. He was not. He was reading and his neck was sore because his face was in a book because he didn't want to engage with other kids. But yes, in theory, you're right.

But on the way back, but I bet you on the way back, tell me what it was like, then he probably was talking with other kids. A little bit, mostly maybe the counselors. But yes, you're right. Okay. All right, all right. So the point is it's the addiction. And in my debates with people, you know, who say, oh, you know, you can't ban things and kids have rights and parents, you know, you're telling parents what to do. And what I realized is there are three areas.

There are three reasons why we put on age limits. The big three, the reasons why we almost all the age limits we have, they're because of sex, violence, and addiction. we've generally reached a consensus in our society that sex, especially hardcore genitals coming together and people choking each other and stuff like that. Like, you know, we don't just let nine-year-olds watch that. Like we try to stop that. And extreme violence. I mean, really brutal violence.

Like, you know, we don't let them see that and, you know, in kids' shows and cartoons. And, you know, we don't let them see X-rated movies or even R-rated movies. So sex, violence, and then addiction. We don't let kids into casinos. We don't let them try drugs that are leaving. for adults. Addiction is really serious because they don't have the prefrontal cortex. They don't have the executive function.

They don't have maturity to resist addiction. Those are the three reasons. What happens on the day you give your kid a smartphone? You've got a 10-year-old. Let's say it's a 10-year-old girl. You give her a smartphone. She downloads Instagram that day. Now, what do you have?

You have sex. They're going to find pornography. If it's a boy, they're going to find violence. Girls aren't watching beheading videos. They're not watching really. But boys, based on what they click on, boys end up getting shown a lot more violence. People being run over by cars, people falling out of windows. I mean, you know, clips, you know, people, and everyone has a camera, so people record all kinds

of deaths. So sex and violence they're going to find. And the social media is particularly addictive for girls. Between 5 and 15% of girls, you could say, are addicted. The technical term is problematic use. Yeah, what do you define that as? So problematic use means it's compulsive use. And that's what makes it look like addiction.

Like they feel they have to do it. They can't just put it aside. So it's compulsive use that interferes with other areas of life. So they're not getting their homework done. They're not seeing their family. They're not seeing their friends. And wait, there's a third feature. Well, I noticed withdrawal behaviors.

I mean, to me that's the third feature. That's the third feature. Yeah, that's right. So when you take it away, so like a boy on video games. They look like addicts. They look like addicts. That's right. If they're heavy uses, right.

So the majority of boys, they can go away for three days without symptoms, but 5 to 15% of them will have symptoms of withdrawal. And if they have withdrawal symptoms, and those are Annalimki talks about these, it's anxiety, insomnia, dysphoria, and irritability. So if your kid is showing that when they're detoxing, that directly tells you that their dopamine,

the dopamine neurons, I mean, I'll let you come back here, but the dopamine neurons that have been accustomed to very high levels of sort of cheap, quick dopamine and therefore have downregulated to become less sensitive so that a three-day period with no video games is the opposite of the pleasure. It's withdrawal and it hurts and then they need to go back. Is that basically the story with dopamine? You please fill it out any more than I just did. Yeah, I mean, the sort of layperson's way to think about it is if you are accustomed to a certain level of stimulation that for your brain and your nervous system feels so good, comfortable, whatever it feels like. When you remove it, yes, the system will essentially go into revolt

and nothing can match it, right? Nothing can match it. Nothing feels good. Nothing feels good and nothing takes the place of it. So if you've ever been around, let's say, a very, very problematic drinker, someone who really, really needs to drink, for example, to function in a social situation. If they don't have that, what it looks like is they cannot wait to get away. They cannot wait to get their fix. They will sneak off to another bar, right? They will find a way to get it. That sort of sneaking behavior, that's sort, like, that's literally, that is the dopamine system being like, someone save me. Save me from what it feels like to be sober, right? That's what it is. to be without my drug is unbearable. Give it back to me.

Yep, that's right. So if we imagine a large percentage of our kids are literally addicted, I don't know whether we want to call it 10% or 40%, whatever percent you want to call it, this helps explain why family life all over the world has become like, you know, as if your kid was an alcoholic and you were constantly struggling. And that's why half measures get us nowhere. And that's why the advice that I give in the book is really different from that of most other experts. Most other experts give you all kinds of things and talk to your kid about this and try this and monitor this. They don't want to talk about it. Yeah, no, that's right. That's right. So those are, those I think are half measures. And I think the only thing that really works when you

have such an addictive and it's socially, it's physically addictive, it's also socially addictive, the social pressures is just delay, delay, delay, delay. Just don't give, don't give any kid a smartphone before high school. Let them have a flip phone or a basic phone or a phone watch. don't let any kid open a social media account until 16. Now, for Instagram, I think, you know, that we can get done. You know, TikTok would be a little harder because they can watch TikTok videos, even if they don't have an account. Snapchat is going to be tough to change because that's what they use.

And they would be so much better if they use texting. Snapchat is a little different from Instagram in terms of the harmfulness. But, you know, let's remember about Snapchat. it was designed for disappearing pictures, which basically says, it's the perfect platform for sending nudes and for doing drug deals and other criminal activity. And since there's no age verification

anywhere on the internet, at least any of the places our kids go, and there's no identity to authentication. So all kinds of strangers can reach your kids on Instagram, on Snapchat. And those two platforms are where most of this extortion happens, all kinds of sexual solicitation, So, yeah, the day you give your kid that phone is the day that the phone moves to the center of their life.

They will develop a phone-based childhood. Strangers can reach them. They can reach strangers. Sex and horrible violence can reach them and they will consume some of it. So I'm saying, let's not try to like regulate this and modify that and put a screen time limit here. Let's just say this is just wildly inappropriate for children. It's like children should not be doing this stuff. We need to treat this like alcohol or driving a car or shooting a gun.

gun. Well, shooting a gun, I mean, you know, kids can legally shoot guns. But, but certainly, you know, public drinking and gambling. I mean, there's just a lot of things that are just wildly inappropriate for children. And if, first of all, I agree with you, I would like to live inside of your brain. But just to play devil's advocate here, for those other things, there's, there's nothing positive, meaning like, there's nothing I'm going to say is positive about, let's say, access to pornography for children. There's nothing positive about that, right? There's nothing positive. I think boys would disagree with you. No, but, but in terms of, in terms of healthy development.

In terms of like healthy development, no, I'm not saying what's not pleasurable. Like, plenty of things are pleasurable that I don't want kids to have access to. But just to kind of devil's advocate it here, you know, there are positive things. I mean, my kids loved, you know, my kids loved Red and Link and my kids loved, you know, John Green and, you know, my kids loved sort of like learning. These things? Are these videos? Are these programs? Yeah, these are things that are entertaining slash educational. They're sort of infotainment. And this was sort of... Are they videos? Yeah. Yeah. They're videos. So I'm saying... Yeah. I'm not saying don't have access to videos. Right. So this was sort of my question. But a lot of these things, that's where they're being shown. They're being shown on social media. And as as Instagram and as everything sort of, you know, it used to be that you could only put like pictures. And then it was like, oh, a short video. And now it's like you can put your whole life on there. So this is sort of the challenge.

I have for you is with, even with social media, there are aspects that could be supportive, educational, helpful, interesting. That's where many of us started saying, okay, you can have two hours, right? But what is different about how we approach this that, let's say, needs to be different from just saying it's all bad or there's some good stuff, but we don't know how to regulate it? That's right. So two things. One is, let's first talk about age. So if we're talking, talking about being a 16-year-old, are there some things that are good for 16-year-olds of being on social media? And there we can definitely have a discussion. I'm totally willing to grant that there are some good things. I think the bad still outweighs it, but I totally grant there are

good, there are useful things. Now let's talk about 10 and 11-year-olds. No, I really don't see anything, anything that is uniquely, like they need it, like they can't get it elsewhere. And so now this brings us to what Cal Newport calls the any benefit fallacy. So Cal Newport, everybody who feels overwhelmed. If you feel overwhelmed by the technological age, please read Cal Newport's book, Deep Work, my students love it.

He's got a new one. I think it's called Slow Productivity, haven't read it yet. But Cal points out in Deep Work, most of us suffer from the any benefit fallacy. Like, oh, you know, I signed up for this newsletter thing and they email me three times a day and, you know, maybe there'll be something,

like there might be a special, like, I don't want to miss something. And you do that a few dozen times. you know it, you're spending half an hour each day deleting all this stuff you got, because maybe there will be a benefit. And yet we have to always look at the cost and we have to be, there is now so much coming at us, we have to basically say, is the benefit so great that I'm willing to let this take a portion of my very limited amount of attention? All right. So now what you just said before is some of these videos are useful. I totally agree. And the way they're getting them is on

social media? Well, is that enough of a benefit that we should have our 10-year-olds on social media? YouTube is technically social media, but we use it more as a video repository. So I'm not saying kids should not be on YouTube. You know, what I'm imagining is a family raising kids. You have a computer, ideally a desktop computer. It's in the kitchen or it's in the living room. You have, you know, limits on the hours, but kids can explore. They can watch videos on YouTube. They can watch whatever these video. If everyone's talking about some video, they can watch it. Stories are good. This is the important thing. Stories are good. Humans live in stories. We've always told stories. Movies are good. Watch movies with your kids. The screen is not the danger.

It's the short-form videos. They're not stories. They're not good. They're little tiny hits of dopamine customized for your brain by a Chinese algorithm. And so what I would say is, sure, your kids, maybe they found something on social media. But what if we simply raise the age? What if we require, what if we just required companies to respect existing law? Which is you can't give an account

to a kid under 13, which they don't do because they don't want to know the age. They don't have to know the age. What if we just enforce existing law? What if we raise it to 16, which is what I want? You have to be 16 to open an account.

What would happen? Would kids never see videos again? No. They would just not see them on Instagram. They would have to go to YouTube where they could either have a child's account, YouTube does have YouTube, there are, you know, you could have a kind of, of a certain sort. Or, you know, YouTube videos would still be accessible to the world, so they could watch it on YouTube.

You don't need an algorithm-driven, newsfeed-focused program designed to addict you in order to find those few benefits that you can point to. And I think it's extremely important to understand that these companies, similar to the cigarette companies, similar to oil companies when they had, lead in their gas and didn't want to be regulated. These companies are designed to maximize attention at all costs, and they do not have the benefit of the user in mind. We can say, oh, we like, I like funny animal videos. But I also know that my feed, even as an adult, quickly divulges and goes towards the most extreme type of content, and that's intention.

by them. Can you speak a little bit to some of the knowing that has come out recently that these companies are promoting or, you know, have turned the blind eye to some of the damages, especially for young girls and encouraging sex exploitation and real extreme danger, putting these young girls in danger? That's right. So this is the business model pioneered by Facebook. You know, originally they had no business model. Mark Zuckerberg understood that the value of a network grows. I forget this is called somebody's law. The value of a network grows, a communication network,

grows in proportion to the square of the number of people. It's not linear. It's the square. And more recent research showed that on social media, it's actually the cube. So it grows incredibly fast. He understood that. And he said growth at all costs. We'll figure out how to make money later.

And then they did. And they developed the advertising. driven business model. And then once they develop the like button, now they have so much information coming in from each user, they can really customize things and now the news feed becomes more central. So, and all of this was done in a competitive, you know, free market environment. You know, God bless the free market. I'm all for it. I'm a professor in a business school. I've traveled in communist Europe before the wall fell. Like, you know, that's great that companies are competing to deliver a better product. But this only works when the person that you're dealing with is your

customer and under this new business model, the kids are not the customers. They are the product. I mean, all of us are the product. And the customers are the advertisers. So this is a very unusual business model. I mean, I guess you could say newspapers and magazines, they had both, you had a subscribe, but also they had advertiser. So it's not that this was out of nowhere, the idea of advertisers paying for the thing. And because, of course, in television, you might say, well, you know, a lot of television other than PBS is designed to maximize your attention. Like they're trying to keep you on. You know, like news flash, you know, turn in at 11. I'll never forget the line from a Kentucky Fried movie in middle school.

One of the scenes was Moscow and Flames, missiles headed towards New York. Film at 11. So, you know, they're trying to keep you on. But there's a qualitative difference between trying to keep you on by having really entertaining programs that you're going to want to watch and that they put out. hit everybody versus an algorithm that learns your behaviors and your preferences so fast that kids learn like, wait, am I gay? Like, why does this algorithm think I'm gay? You know, I mean, it can tell what they're looking at. It can often know your sexuality before you do. They are so customized per customer that it's a level of hooking beyond anything that television could ever have

accomplished. I wonder if you can speak to, there was an article that, that you wrote, why the mental health of liberal girls sank first and fastest. And I actually sent this one to my son because I just, I thought it was so powerful and I thought, also my kids were homeschooled until high school.

And so, you know, my son who entered high school at 11th grade, you know, was interacting with a very different kind of population, a larger population, you know, of girls and boys than he had ever really been exposed to before. And of course, he did other activities and Model UN and this, that. But I sent,

this to him because it was so powerful. And of course, he was like, I think he's a fearmonger. And I said, well, that's okay. Read it anyway. But I wonder if you can speak to not only the mental health of liberal girls and sort of the difference between girls and boys when we talk about these things. But I would argue that women versus men is also another sort of very different kind of algorithm, generally speaking. I don't mean to say that I know everybody's gender, blah, blah, blah. But there's something different because, look, women are more social creatures, typically. So things like comparisons are things that come more easily. They're more part of the vernacular of the female experience. And again, some men and non-binary people. But I wonder if you can speak

to sort of the specificity of girls versus boys, but let's expand it out to adults because I think social media is horrendous for adults, not just children. That's right. That's right. Okay, good. Let's do both of those things. So the first, I didn't put this in the book, but a way I've begun talking about it recently is what is a trap? What does it mean to be a trap? And I'm taking this from Yasha Monk, his book, The Identity Trap. He shows how identity politics is a trap that lures some students in and then they can't get out. And in the same way, you know, if you want to catch, if you want to trap a raccoon, you need to use food that the raccoon will be attracted to. And then once he takes it,

He can't get out. That's what a trap is. So if you want to trap girls, what are you going to bait the trap with? It's not going to be naked men. It's not going to be videos of war. It's going to be what Susie said about Sally. It's going to be what Mary said about you. It's going to be who's dating who, who just broke up with who.

Girls want more social information. Their mental map of social space and who's related to is much more refined than men. This is, you know, endless jokes within heterosexual marriage about like the guys are so clueless about everything and their wife. have to tell them what's going on with their own friends. So if you want to trap a girl, give her social information and the lure of some sort of connection, then the girls go in, they get that, they grab that, and now they can't get out. Because now that everyone's in, if you go out, now you're isolated, you're alone. So Facebook originally, but then especially Instagram, girls went, when everyone rushed

in to the online life in the early 2010s, when they had constant access with their phones. the girls go for the visually oriented platforms. They go for Instagram, Pinterest, Tumblr, or the big three early on. Whereas the boys, they're on social media, but not so much those platforms. They're more interested in YouTube and YouTube videos and in video games and in pornography. So you trap girls that way, and now they'll never get out. And now, basically, for the rest of their lives, they're going to be facing thousands of social comparisons every single day to girls who are pretty than they are, or at least who appear prettier than they are, because of the

filters and the careful editing. So the girls are really in trouble. Again, not all, but I'd say a majority are being harmed by living this way. And also the, sorry, the hardcore feminists have been saying this for a very long time. And people were like, you just don't like fun. You're just jealous of pretty girls. But now when John Heights says it, everybody's listening. Well, there may be some people out there who like me more than they like feminists. So, but now let's switch over to the boys. So the boys, how do you trap a boy? Well, pictures of naked girls or, you know, if they're straight and obviously pictures of naked men, if they're gay. So sex and violence, boys are much more interested, not in gore per se, although maybe some, but they're just much

more interested in conflict. And if you let boys do what they want, they're going to organize to have a conflict. Like that's what sports and games, you know, that's, it's fun. And they get, and the most nutritious part, this was shown by Jean Piaget, the famous Swiss psychologist, the best part of games is the rule violations and all the jurisprudence and legislation that comes afterwards. So how do we work this out? Okay, new rule, new rules. The statistics. They love stats. Okay, there's that too. There's that too. But the key thing to keep your eye on is the conflicts. Okay, those are important. Now, what happens? So what do you do if you want to trap a boy? Video games and porn? So they go in, they're spending now a lot of them are spending four, five, six

hours a day on video games and porn that pushes everything else out. It's not a majority, but a lot of boys are spending more than four hours a day on video games and porn. And now they're trapped for the dopamine reasons that we said before, that they can't now live without it. And that's where all the boys are. So if they quit, they're alone because all the boys, everyone they know is hanging out on the video game platforms. And so they're trapped, but they're having fun.

Video games are fun and porn is fun. So if we look in at the boys and the girls at age 15, it looks like the girls are doing worse. and that's sort of what I said in my book. But it only occurred to me over the last few months. What if we check in on them when they're 28, which is what the oldest Gen Z are? What if we look at them in their mid-20s?

Now what's happening? Well, the girls are still more anxious and fragile, and employers say this. But the girls went to college. They graduated from college. They got a job. They moved out. They have an apartment.

Okay? The girls are still functional. whereas the boys, all they ever did was video games and porn. They have no life skills, no social skills. They don't understand how relationships or women work, right? Oh, my God. That's right. That's right. Yeah. Which, you know, and pretty soon they'll have AI girlfriends so they won't ever need to learn how to deal with a girl or a woman.

My point is, if we look at them at 28, the boys are less educated, less employed, less wealthy, less independent, more likely to be living with their parents. So I don't have any clear data on this, but I would guess that the happiness gap between girls and boys, which is very big at age 14, I'm guessing that it's going to narrow somewhat because the boys are generally, a lot of them are miserable because they're failures. They're losers.

They become losers. They never went through all the stuff that Jonathan was talking about, the toughening, realizing you can get hurt and not break down. You just keep going. You just keep going. And another thing, just so detail on the video games, video games are a lot of fun,

but there are no conflicts. There can't be a conflict because the platform enforces all of the rules. So you never can say on a video game, hey, that was out of bounds. Or you're not supposed to do that. You can't say that on a video game because there's no dispute, which means you're taking out the most nutritious part of play. So for all these reasons, I now think the phone-based life ends up being even worse for boys

in the long run than it is for girls because it really blocks their development, even more than it does for girls. It's been so great to talk to you. I really appreciate your time. I guess I'd like to close out our time with you just with one question. Are you fun? Do you feel like, do you feel like, you know, as a social psychologist, especially one who studies morality, like, you know, are there things that feel like you can

access them as a parent in ways that you understand sort of what people, like what your kids are going to want when they go out there? Or does it feel like it's just like all rules all the time? Oh, am I fun as a parent? Yeah, I mean, or as a human, but, you know. Yeah. Well, I'll start with a negative one, which is, am I fun as a human? I guess the answer is actually no, because I'm so, I'm so deeply into what I'm doing.

I love what I'm doing. I'm so focused on the research, on this project. I feel like I've been tracking down a mystery. I feel as though our institutions are decaying. Democracy is decaying. Universities are falling apart. Childhood. I mean, I feel like we live in a time of sociological disaster.

and my skills as a social psychologist can allow me to address. So I'm incredibly engaged. But I think what that means, you know, all work and no play makes Jack Adele Boy. So I have noticed I'm pretty boring to talk to because all I want to talk about is this, according to my wife, at least. And she's right. So I think I've gotten less fun as I've got older because I've also gotten much more serious.

I think, you know, I feel like I'm looking at existential threats to our society and I'm really focused on those. So I'm incredibly engaged, but I think I'm not that much fun as I used to be. All right. But as a parent, as a parent, I think I'm pretty good because I love to play, love to play with kids, love to play with dogs, always have. And like many fathers, and there's research on this, you know, mothers don't throw the kids up in the air. Fathers do that. Mothers don't jump out and say boo and surprise the kid and chase them. Fathers do that. Fathers have much more vigorous play, play fear, and that's important to be, because kids are practicing their predator avoidance skills. And as the father, if you chase them around,

pretending to be a monster. That is just, that is thrilling for them. That is heaven. That's what they want to do. So I think I was that kind of dad. And as a kids got older, I read Lenore Skenezy, who wrote the book Free Range Kids.

She had a huge influence on me and my wife. So I was always pushing to give them more of a free-range childhood, push them out the door, make them do errands, let them walk to school, give them independence. So I think that while over time, like the picture of Dorian Gray, you know, I've become less fun, but I think I did an okay job as a father. preparing my children to be more engaged with the real world.

John, can you also speak to that this is a reversible impact on our kids, that when we take them off, tell us a little bit about what you've seen, about how we bounce back as a society. So, right, so this is really encouraging. I'm used to dealing with problems that are almost insoluble, especially about the state of liberal democracy and sort of the way technology is affecting democracy. Those are huge problems, don't know how to solve them. This one, because we got trapped in by a collective action process, I can see the way out. And any school that goes phone free, and schools are going phone free all over the country,

all over the world. It's really exciting. So we can give our kids six hours a day away from their phones just by snapping our fingers. And L.A. just did it, announced they're doing it. Just this morning, David Banks, the chancellor of New York City Public Schools, said in an interview that he's likely to do it. And I spoke to him a couple weeks ago, him and his team. He's heard from the principals.

They all say, get rid of the phones. It's making our lives impossible. So the schools are really going to change quickly, like this year, in 2024, this is happening. And especially once that happens, since almost all parents are fed up with what's going on, when you show them a way that, you know what, just band together, all agree, no smartphone until high school, that's happening also. So I have never seen social change happen so fast because everyone was ready to change. Everyone hates what's going on. And that even includes Gen Z.

It's not that they want you to take the phone out of their hands, but if you take the phone out of everyone's hands, most of them are going to say, oh, well, actually, yeah, that's a pretty good deal. So I'm wildly optimistic that we're going to roll this back. Now, you ask specifically about kids who are older who have already been through this. And what I can tell you is that, you know, as we know, the brain is sort of rewire more rapidly during puberty from, you know, age 11, 12, all the way through about 25, the prefrontal cortex kind of finishes. I think those numbers are roughly correct. And so I'm especially focused on early

puberty because that's where, you know, if we can keep this all out of middle school, that's our biggest bang for the buck. We've got just delay it till at least age 14. That's the most important thing. But my students at NYU are all mostly, they're mostly sophomores. My class is limited mostly to sophomores. They're roughly 19 years old. And most of them, you know, the first thing they do in the morning is they check their notifications. And the last thing they do before they close the rise is check their notifications and text, things like that.

In between, it's a lot of what they do is that. And so most of them, by their own admission, are to some extent either addictive or least dependent. They watch too much TikTok. They know this. And once I sort of guide them through them. And again, Cal Newport's book, Deep Work is so powerful. And these are business students.

They want to be successful in life. Once they see, wait, like we've given up all our attention, which means we can't do anything. Like, no, I don't want to do that. So once they see that, we work together to find ways for them to regain their attention. The number one thing is turn off almost all notifications. I tell them, think about Uber. Do you want Uber to be able to interrupt you to tell you that the car is coming in five minutes? Yes, I want that.

I want to know the car's coming in five minutes. Do you want the New York Times to interrupt you with breaking news about something? I can wait till the evening. I'll just sign up for a... Let them email me once a day and I'll see the top stories. You know, that's a choice you can make. Now, you might feel like, no, you know,

I need to know if, you know, something is happening somewhere in the world. But once you see that, wait, it's not any benefit. Don't keep on that newsletter just because you might, maybe, find something urgent. Be incredibly selective. Take back control of your attention. Once they do, oh, take social media off your phone.

If you must, if you can't go cold, then just leave it on your laptop, check it when you're home, but don't have it with you in the elevator. Don't be checking Instagram in the elevator because you have 45 seconds. Oh my God. Thank you. So the point is, if these things, these programs, they're able to grab even 45 seconds, they will grab every bit of human attention. And if you can imagine that from now on in, humans will have no attention at all, that means we have no society. We have no innovation. We have nobody taking risk. We have nobody being creative.

Everyone just is... Anyway, that's a distraction. My point is, they get amazing results. We get transformative stories. Not everyone in the class has transformed, but a lot of the students are transformed. They find, like, some of them say, like, I have so much time now.

I've started playing guitar. Like, because they didn't realize, like, yeah, five hours a day. Like, that's a lot of your day to be giving to social media. And if you stop doing that for five hours a day, you can do your homework, and you can go out with a friend, and you can take piano lessons,

and you can get more sleep, and you can exercise. So it all starts with taking back control of your attention. So what I'm saying is, you know, if you're in your 20s and you were a heavy, you know, video game or social media kid all through puberty, there probably are going to be some permanent changes. You probably will not rise to the level that you would have had you had a sort of a toughening childhood on average.

But you can rise a lot. And this is, of course, true in all of psychology. You know, the brain is not that plastic after 25. but it's a little and, you know, human habits are hard to change, but we can. So it takes more work. You have a bigger challenge. If you're in your 20s and you went, you had a phone-based childhood, you're going to have to be much more intentional about this. You're not just going to get better on your own. But if you change your habits, you're going to change your mind. Thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure to talk to you.

Thank you for all of the work that you've done. I really believe that it is going to change the lives of millions and millions and millions of people, if not billions. And we're going to going to get our attention back and we're going to hopefully reverse some of these horrific impacts that are happening. So thank you. Thank you so much, Jonathan. Thanks so much, my. Just again, if people want more information, anxious generation.com. My substack is afterbabel.com where Zach Roush and I write all kinds of news updates. And for parents with younger kids, let grow.org. It'll give you all kinds of ideas for how to give your kids more of a free range childhood. So the information is out there. Other people are out there waiting to work with you.

ideas are out there. This is the year we make the change. 2024 is the year we change childhood for the better. Jonathan, do you feel hopeful or less hopeful after speaking to John Hight? I feel hopeful that people are starting to identify this behavior and the impacts of our phone use in a way that I think was easy to ignore. We were like, oh, kids are just annoying or kids don't want to be around their parents or kids are just moody and anxious. And what we're doing now is actually measuring with more quantifiable data. He didn't get into that many of the specifics about the data, but self-harm is increased.

Not only just reported incidences, self-reported incidences of anxiety, depression are up. And some people will fight back. They'll say, well, kids are just too sensitive these days and we're giving them too much therapy and we're not telling them to suck it up enough. But when incidences of self-harm increase the way that they have, when kids are in depressive episodes to the point where they can't function, it's beyond simply providing them too many resources or asking them about their feelings too much. What we're seeing is that they are missing significant developmental milestones by being stuck to their screens. And so I'm hopeful that we're starting to address that by, you can't fix a problem

until you address it and talk about it honestly. And I'm hopeful and have hope that by doing this, we can take the next steps that are needed. You know, we wouldn't have stopped smoking as a society. The amount of decrease, the decrease in our smoking rates only happen when we can get to the bottom of actually, what are the real risks and health harms associated with that? And that's what the Surgeon General is talking about. He's saying, we were able to do this. I mean, people didn't use to wear seatbelts.

It wasn't a notion that you should not drive when intoxicated, right? These were all large public campaigns to educate people. Smoking is a huge one. We really, you know, as a sort of, you know, society, that was significant. significantly shifted and turned around. You know, it's even, I never thought I'd see a day when it was unfashionable to smoke or when anyone would express that notion

that was a young person. Like the notion was always like, okay, but it's like still really like cool to smoke, right? And I understand there are still people who absolutely still believe that and there are kids who believe that. But sometimes when I hear kids in their 20s or teens being like, ew, that person's smoking. It's so unpleasant.

I'm like, there's hope. Literally the other day, my son and I were driving, and there was a woman who was probably early 20s smoking a cigarette outside of a restaurant, and my son commented to me, he's like, what is she doing? It's so rare that you see that in major cities a little bit more so. Well, and look, it's a much bigger change to ask young people and adults to stop looking at their phones.

I mean, my kids love to point out, well, you're on it, And the fact is it is different. In some ways, it is different in terms of the, you know, brain development and social impact. But in a lot of ways, it is similar, you know. And so I think that is something also to address. But it is going to be a steeper climb. It just is because it's not simply stop smoking. It's find a way to rewire your brain so that everything doesn't bore you anymore

and that you don't hate interacting with humans and that you don't have attention, PS. The other really big complicating factor is that the phone can be used in so many different ways. Some of it has similar patterns of distraction, numbing, lack of focus on the present, removing us from communications with other people. However, playing the spelling bee and endlessly doom scrolling on TikTok are different activities. They both can be addictive. they both can be distracting, but fundamentally they're giving a different sense of dopamine. Well, I think the question also, the question with like, for example, spelling B, which I do enjoy

or wordal, you know, which swept the nation when, I think when I was on Call Me Cat, I was like, what are people talking about? Why is everybody? Why is everybody? Like, the whole crew was like into Wordle and it was really fun for everybody. But those do have a beginning, middle and end. And of course, when you finish Wordle, then you go on to, you know, then your drug use expands. That's your gateway drug, right? then you'll go to Spelling Bee. I mean, I've tried tiles and vortex. Like, I've literally tried the other games.

You know, I like connections a lot. But, you know, my older son and I, we started doing the mini crossword on the New York Times. But that wasn't enough for me. I went on to Sudoku. I went on to... Sudoku easy, because I don't want to have too much of a challenge. And then, you know, sometimes when I really want...

Like, more, I do the full crossword on my phone, right? And I think like that's where for me, that's that kind of slippery slope. It went from, I'm going to do the spelling bee or I'm going to do the wordal to every free moment I have. I'm going to pull open spelling bee and see if I can find another word. And that's different, you know, it really is different. I do enjoy crossword puzzles and I do them on, you know, I have like a little book, you know, and I've started doing that.

Like before bed, I'll do that. I have a need for my brain to be kept busy. I know that. if you don't keep it busy with something and give it something to chew on, it will just start chewing the scenery, you know? So I understand that that's a desire of mine, but the notion of scrolling, I mean, I have to say, I never thought I'd be able to stop.

I never thought I'd be able to stop. And then I was really embarrassed. And then it was like, well, who's running her social media if she's admitting that she doesn't do it? So for a time, I was like, I have an account and I use it for business. But like now I can't pretend anymore. And when people are like, did you see this thing? No, I did not. I sometimes don't even know how to work what someone sends me. Like, that's how far removed I am. I really am very far removed from understanding the difference between a reel and a post and a thing. Like, I don't understand how to share things because they changed the way I used to do it 8,000 years ago. Like, that's how far removed I am. And honestly, like, I'm glad. I don't, I don't miss it anymore. I did it first. And I felt really, pulled. And now I was like, oh, is this what it feels like to break an addiction? I don't miss it.

I don't want it. When John was talking about, you know, we used to ask people for directions. And because I think about, this is related to what you're saying because, you know, I'm listening to how you removed yourself from social media, but you had developmental skills as a child that weren't thwarted by, you know, your constant attachment to this screen. And I used to believe that you could basically get any piece of information you needed by asking about six people. You know, the six degrees of separation, I used to think that anything I needed to know was within six degrees of separation. And, you know, I wasn't a researcher. I wasn't, if I needed to find something out, I wasn't going to the library and sifting through a book and sifting through the next book and asking, like, that wasn't how I was going to get information.

I was going to ask. And, you know, what struck me almost most about the conversation was, our children's inability to start to solve a problem, they just assume that the answer isn't there. And they're being placed in so many rules, situations where the rules are predefined for them. I remember in fifth grade, I went to a school that didn't have its own playground. So we went to a public park. And for some reason, that public park had a little plot of land and it had a sign that said no soccer.

I guess they didn't want ball. You know, they didn't want the ball. I don't know why. Why? But the thing that we did the most as like a group was play soccer. So I took a bunch of old hockey socks. And for those who don't know what hockey socks are, they're like very long pieces of fabric that go from, you know, underneath your foot all the way above your knee.

they enclose your shin pad. So they're quite large. Is it a sock? I had a bunch of old. Wait, wait. Is it a sock? It's a sock, but it goes over your shin pad. So it's like...

I think it's funny how you described it, that it goes under your foot. Do you mean it's a Zok? Well, it doesn't go over your foot. There's a little band that goes underneath your heel. And then it goes up over. So it's not, it's like... Okay. It doesn't go over your toes.

We're getting a little in the weeds on the hockey sound here. No, no, no, but I need to know. Is it go over your toes? It does not. Oh, okay, got it. It's a special piece of... There's a band underneath your heel, and then it goes over your ankles,

foot is free to be in the skate. It's like a shin pad without the pad, but then it goes higher. It's a shin pad tube cover that gets taped above the shin pad. Got it. So I had a bunch of these old hockey socks from playing hockey for a long time.

So we balled them up, covered it in tape, made our own ball, which was not a soccer ball, and we played soccer. It's very resistant. And I would just and I would think like if

my son in that situation would he see the sign and just be like oh guess there's nothing to do I'll just sit on my phone He'd be like the man is keeping me down I need to protest and speak to a congressperson

I'm triggered. No, he definitely wouldn't protest but to your point I'm like did he ask anyone at camp if they had an extra pair of socks before calling me? The school had The camp has extra socks for this express reason.

And also, if his feet were hurting so much because he left his socks, then he would do other stuff that day, not get to play and learn a lesson. And find a way to always have an extra pair of socks in his bag for this reason, because you're going to be an adult soon. I went, I used to take kids on canoe trips as a young, older teen, young 20s. And the best, it was one of the best experiences in my life because, number one, you're going out in the woods, caring for a group of six children under your care and reading a map, planning, food prep. But the biggest learning curve was in packing out the trip. You would start two days, three days ahead of time. You'd have to make your inventory list and talk to the kitchen and request certain foods. There wasn't that many options. If you forget toilet paper, there's no toilet paper for the group.

You quickly learn to rack your brain. What have I forgotten? What have I forgotten? What have I forgotten? Because you're going out for those five days. And if you don't take the things you need, you're on your, no one's coming to help you. And I just think that, you know, we don't put ourselves. A lot of these, a lot of kids are not being put in situations that have non-dire consequences that help.

them have foresight and planning and and putting them in situations where yeah my son walks around the house on his phone trying to pack up for the day and then forgets things and I'm like put your phone down and go through that mental process but he's never had to pack out a canoe trip he's never had to think like that and and have that that planning and how you know so how do we do that collectively because it's not just about packing and planning but it is the thinking ahead and and the resource to problem-solve. And I think these are all, I think they are all related.

You know, there was, I think there was a book that came out. It might have been like the helicopter parent, you know, kind of, I don't know, it could have been a tiger mom conversation. But I remember there was this, you know, like if your kid forgets their violin, do not take them their violin.

They will have to have that day without their violin. And like, pretend that I'm not a text away, right? I do think that all these things, they are, they're, if not related, they're interrelated. Because it is, as Jonathan, you pointed out. It's about resiliency. It's about drawing on resources.

It's about interacting with people. It's about having the attention to think that way and the presence of mind to problem solve. And I don't blame our kids. You know, like if everything is instant, everything is shiny and beautiful, they don't want to deal with anything. Like, I wouldn't want to deal with anything that's not that way.

And as adults, we kind of know, well, let me just do the things I can do to make my life more shiny and beautiful. Whereas I think for kids, it's like, let's only deal with the things that we want because everything else feels really bland and boring. John was talking about in a different interview that I heard of his, the idea of play as conflict resolution. And I was telling my son, you know, when we would find a street and play hockey, like people were upset about the teams. Their teams are uneven. Oh, this player played with this person last time. That was a cheap shot. You brought your stick above your waist and, you know, it hit my face.

Like, and then there's a whole group conversation. Well, did that happen? Was that person's view of the situation right? You know, who's right or wrong? And how do you navigate that? When you're playing a video game and you get into conflict and the person is a remote and person you've never met them, they're only an online friend, you just hang up. you don't go through any of that conflict resolution.

Well, and I think also I don't mean to like over, you know, over-romanticize what play is like. I remember being excluded from a lot of games, teased, crying, like getting hit by things, people throwing things at me. Like, that was a lot of my experience was playing, you know, in school, because I think that's the truth, that's the truth too,

is that, you know, I think about the kids who were mercilessly teased. I think about the kids who were bullied. I think about the kids who, you know, didn't have a body type that met what the athletic needs were of the activity. And it was just like shitty and bad for them. And, you know, so, like, there's a lot of, there's a lot of stuff here that feels grayer,

but those kinds of interactions, you know, are the way that it's true. We do a different kind of learning. And, you know, animals play and primates play a very specific way. I also, you know, took issue with like, I mean, look, I think he was, you know, speaking broadly about certain kinds of play of like, dads throw you in the air. Moms don't. Like some moms do. You know, and like some moms like to chase you and say boo. But I get generally speaking what he's saying. But, you know, I was really, really excited to get to speak to, you know, to someone whose articles I've been following. And yeah, Jonathan, you and I both were pretty vulnerable. And, you know, I think it's important, as you said, to kind of really get on it. about what's going on so that we can try and find a solution.

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especially with an episode like this one, very curious what this brings up for you. So yeah, from our breakdown to the one we hope you never have. We'll see you next time. It's my and Bialics breakdown. She's going to break it down for you. She's got a neurosey.

It's Ph.D. or two. One, fiction. And now she's going to break down.